Is there a way out for Sydney? Can they fix years of lack of investment in infrastructure or is it just too late and better to relocate a lot of companies away from Sin City and just let it be?

I'd be looking at double decker buses, allowing all-comers to run rikki style buses like you get in Turkey and a massive underground train system.

:cheers:

Sydney's problems aren't that much greater than any other Australian city and are always overstated. All of the solutions are relatively simple. We don't need a massive underground rail system but we do need a few underground rail lines to key areas which have been talked about ad nauseam.
Money isn't the problem, we just need a government with the will to do something and the solutions will come quickly.

Finding a way to get the heavy traffic off the main roads, possibly by connecting the freeways, I think once the traffics off the smaller roads it would make improving public transport much more easier, Also improving the Rail network, perhaps with more lines out in the West Sydney area, and mayby a high speed rail (200km/h) connecting all the major centres.

We could copy London and do all these taxing cars entering the CBD and stuff... but I have a feeling that won't work here in Sydney. If you stop the citizens from coming to the city by car, the public transport system will overload. Bikepaths? Underground walkalators?:D...

hong kong has heaps of footbridges to keep predestrian traffic from blocking the road (more traffic can pass without waiting for predestrian to cross signals) and there is such thing as a elevated walkway with esculators (most of the length) in hong kong. but most of these are designed for feeding bus routes, inter-building travels and taking predistrains off the road to make it safer (becasue hk is the most traffic per km of road in any city).

sydney surely can invest in a cheap elevated walkway to major hubs, not only it will improve the safety it can also reduce timne spent walking, making it more enjoyable and more users to PT.

hong kong has heaps of footbridges to keep predestrian traffic from blocking the road (more traffic can pass without waiting for predestrian to cross signals) and there is such thing as a elevated walkway with esculators (most of the length) in hong kong. but most of these are designed for feeding bus routes, inter-building travels and taking predistrains off the road to make it safer (becasue hk is the most traffic per km of road in any city).

sydney surely can invest in a cheap elevated walkway to major hubs, not only it will improve the safety it can also reduce timne spent walking, making it more enjoyable and more users to PT.


Sydney wouldn't need elevated walkways, It's got very big footpaths, but the footbridges are a good idea, Especially around the Chinatown area.

^ Yep, and along George St (Central - Town Hall area)

^ Yep, and along George St (Central - Town Hall area)


Yeah, the whole general area.

The Cross city tunnell will do alot, too.

I also think some of the smaller roads in the Sydney area should be closed to Automotive traffic to make way for Pedestrian malls.

Sydney's problems have always been overstated and very political

Sydney's problems aren't that much greater than any other Australian city and are always overstated. All of the solutions are relatively simple. We don't need a massive underground rail system but we do need a few underground rail lines to key areas which have been talked about ad nauseam.
Money isn't the problem, we just need a government with the will to do something and the solutions will come quickly.

I totally agree.

We need a metro style system that grids the entire city like a spider web.That way people anywhere from anyplace can get to where they are going.

Here is a very crude map of what I mean by blanketing the city.

The pink lines are the heavy rail routes that already exist.These would take people out to the outer suburbs and could be converted into highspeed lines.

The yellow is the metro.It has to cover the whole city to be effecitve.Once in place the governmet should undertake a massive urban consolidation programme far greater than what its doing now around the stations

My knowlgedge of the Sydney system is fading from Memory.Its been 6 years since ive lived there.My pink lines are a little offline.

http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/2046/sydney5mn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

LOL - metros are not going to span that length of area - metros are for inner city areas

Well, what the Unsworth Report recommended for Sydney isn't too bad either. Grid of high-frequency bus routes serving the City and Suburbs. The ones with highly patronised routes could then be considered for upgrade to light rail or metro rail.
http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/7514/map3overlaystrategiccorridorsa.th.jpg (http://img320.imageshack.us/my.php?image=map3overlaystrategiccorridorsa.jpg)

Sydney's traffic is not that bad, compare it to Bangkok, LA, Paris, London, NYC where bumper to bumper traffic on some routes is a 24/7 affair. It has bad moments but is nowhere that bad. Nowhere in Australia has continuously bad traffic. If you've ever tried driving through the Lincoln tunnel in NY or the A4 in inner London on Wednesday night about midnight you'll know what I mean.

Sydney's traffic is not that bad, compare it to Bangkok, LA, Paris, London, NYC

..or many other European cities that have great metro systems. Sydney's traffic is very light in comparison. The point is; although it's not that bad on a world scale, it could be much, much better.

LOL - metros are not going to span that length of area - metros are for inner city areas

If you look at the map.Most of it covers the inner area.

Well, what the Unsworth Report recommended for Sydney isn't too bad either. Grid of high-frequency bus routes serving the City and Suburbs. The ones with highly patronised routes could then be considered for upgrade to light rail or metro rail.
http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/7514/map3overlaystrategiccorridorsa.th.jpg (http://img320.imageshack.us/my.php?image=map3overlaystrategiccorridorsa.jpg)


Buses are great for short journeys to the shops or the station.

While very useful and cheap to run,buses arent good for long journeys.

You need rapid transort like Trains and Subways for that

Sydney wouldn't need elevated walkways,
What do you mean. I like this idea cuts down on lights and crossing time that are a major hassell to traffic. I cant see any change. Live with. Buy in the city, live above a rail line. Take a job close to your home or area you live if you cant take it. Its more life style that planning failure at this stage

Buses are great for short journeys into to the shops or the station.

While very useful buses arent good for short journeys.

You need rapid transort like Trains and Subways

While I agree that buses should only serve a feeder function, with a government (either party, doesn't matter) reluctant to spend on high capital cost transport modes, a bus route is cheaper to implement. What we then do is change zoning in LEPs so that land adjacent to the high-frequency bus corridors to allow medium-high densities. Then the govt would be more willing to throw in some trams or metro.

Eg. Fairfield Council has been gradually amending it's LEP so that it allows increased densities around it's T-Way stations. Bonnyrigg Town Centre is due for a makeover. THis will increase catchment and use of the T-Way line and may make it viable to upgrade to light rail.

LOL - what traffic problems? Its never been a probem to me. Took me just 15 minutes to drive from Paddington to Balmain using the GIB and Market Street in peak hour - thats pretty good!! The same distance in Brisbane, say from Newstead to Toowong in peak hour might take half an hour or more and there are less options for diversion.

You guys have no problem - Sydney is great!!!!

Try catching a bus from Sunnybank Hills to the city off peak. The Main Road corridor has unbelievable bus congestion. Off peak the corridor has 9 services per hour which are always packed. During peaks the corridor carries about 30 services per hour all packed. Public transport congestion on Brisbanes major routes is unbelievable.

LOL - what traffic problems? Its never been a probem to me. Took me just 15 minutes to drive from Paddington to Balmain using the GIB and Market Street in peak hour - thats pretty good!! The same distance in Brisbane, say from Newstead to Toowong in peak hour might take half an hour or more and there are less options for diversion.

You guys have no problem - Sydney is great!!!!

it took me 45mins to get from the airport to the city late on a saturday afternoon and another 60mins to get to parklea. thats bad!

It once took my dad 3 and a half hours to get from Enoggera to my house(Nerang). Usually about 1hr 15min in average traffic.

Boxing Day last year it took almost 3 hours to get from Nerang to Petrie. Gracious thanks must go to the Gateway 'Motorway'. Bloody gridlocked from about 3Km south of the M1 offramp, onto the Gateway, right past the toll gates. Small reprieve over the bridge, then back into gridlock around the west and north of the airport. A ray of hope, until we reached Deagon. Then gridlock right onto the Bruce Highway(An 8 lane parking lot).

BRISBANE TRAFFIC ROCKS:rock:

I just heard an interview with Iemma. Was good to hear i think. He said his top priority was transport! Mentioning upgrades will be necesarily to the network (specifically rail), not just untangling. Hopefully we'll have someone with ball who will give us a metro to UNSW & Northern beaches!!!

Try catching a bus from Sunnybank Hills to the city off peak. The Main Road corridor has unbelievable bus congestion. Off peak the corridor has 9 services per hour which are always packed. During peaks the corridor carries about 30 services per hour all packed. Public transport congestion on Brisbanes major routes is unbelievable.

Hah! Have you ever been to Circular Quay? There's every form of public transport except trams down there, and the area usually fills with buses. Not to mention that you'll usually see at LEAST 2 or 3 buses in any given 5 second period anywhere in the CBD.

JayT: That would be because you were going in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION to most of the traffic. :) Yeah, ok, you head into the city for a brief time, but then you're heading out. And it's only a few k's really.

demanjo: That's not what I heard, though his priorities do seem to be in the right place (health, housing affordability, etc.)

What, are we arguing over who has the worst traffic now? Brisbane can have the title if they want it.

I watched his speech on news.com (or smh, dont remember) i think it was. But yeah it just spoke briefly about his main priority for the city being fixing and expanding infrastructure. Though prior to this he did say he wanted to raise australians with great concern for health & family.

"What, are we arguing over who has the worst traffic now? Brisbane can have the title if they want it."

They think it contributes to Brisbanes "world class big city" feel.

I just heard an interview with Iemma. Was good to hear i think. He said his top priority was transport! Mentioning upgrades will be necesarily to the network (specifically rail), not just untangling. Hopefully we'll have someone with ball who will give us a metro to UNSW & Northern beaches!!!

I totally agree with you.Lemma sounds promising.

While I agree that buses should only serve a feeder function, with a government (either party, doesn't matter) reluctant to spend on high capital cost transport modes, a bus route is cheaper to implement. What we then do is change zoning in LEPs so that land adjacent to the high-frequency bus corridors to allow medium-high densities. Then the govt would be more willing to throw in some trams or metro.

Eg. Fairfield Council has been gradually amending it's LEP so that it allows increased densities around it's T-Way stations. Bonnyrigg Town Centre is due for a makeover. THis will increase catchment and use of the T-Way line and may make it viable to upgrade to light rail.

Good point I guess.

It comes down to either the Chicken or the Egg?

What comes first.Transport or higher densities of housing.

Putting in good transport will attract and add value first.

High density housing without transport can casue all kinds of problems.Kellyville and the Castlehill area as an example.And thats low denisty development not high

If any city is in a position to clear it's congestion it's sydney - there are more skyscraper hubs in that city than anywhere else in the country - meaning there is more commercial activity going on outside the CBD - what the government needs to do is create sufficient links to all these places (Chatswood, Hornsby, Parramatta etc).

They also need to invest in tram lines. The more I use trams in Melbourne the more I'm convinced other cities should have them. Don't waste time on studies and pussyfooting though - get in there decide on some routes which aren't covered by the train and lay the tracks. Even if it takes space from other road users, they'll have an alternative on those roads.

(PS Kinda pisses me off when you talk to someone here in Geelong and say that we should have trams to the CBD our roads are wide enough - people recoil in NIIMBY horror as if the reason they moved to Geelong was so they didn't share road-space with a tram! Australians need to lighten up when it comes to PT)

From http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-light-at-the-end-of-sydneys-great-tunnel-debacle/2005/08/06/1123125943135.html


Finally, a light at the end of Sydney's great tunnel debacle
By Hannah Edwards
August 7, 2005
The Sun-Herald

Walk the walk, talk the talk ... after a comedy of errors - and one death - the Cross City Tunnel will open in three weeks.
Photo: Lee Besford

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/08/06/crosscitytunnel_wideweb__430x286.jpg

Welcome to the first glimpse inside the $680 million Cross City Tunnel.

While last-minute tweaks are still being made to the 2.1-kilometre tunnel that will connect western Sydney with the east, The Sun-Herald has gained a sneak preview of the project, which is due to open on August 28.

Once the tunnel opens, motorists will be able to cross under the CBD in just two minutes, at speeds of 80 kmh, avoiding the congested city streets and 18 sets of traffic lights above it.

But the tunnel, expected to carry up to 90,000 vehicles each day, has not been without controversy.

After a last-minute decision, it failed to open on its much hyped launch date of June 12, as The Sun-Herald revealed.

A major advertising campaign, including colourful posters plastered around the CBD, had been launched in anticipation of the opening.

While the delay was understood to have been due to unfinished electrical work, it was an embarrassing setback for the NSW Government, which had enthusiastically spruiked a completion date that was four months ahead of schedule.

Builders of the Cross City Tunnel say the new opening date still falls within the original timeframe that stated the project would be completed by October 19.

However, a mass charity walk through the tunnel, originally timed to coincide with the June opening, is yet to be confirmed for the new opening date.

A spokesman for builders Baulderstone Hornibrook said a decision was expected to be made this week on the charity walk, a popular way to mark the opening of tunnels and motorways.

The spokesman confirmed the tunnel would be open to traffic late in the day on August 28 or early the next morning.

"It will serve the city for 100 years," he said.

The tunnel, which links Darling Harbour with Rushcutters Bay, is a fully electronic toll road.

One-way fees will cost $3.53 for cars with an e-tag and $5.13 for cars without an e-tag.

Many involved in the project said the June completion date was never a realistic goal.

Finishing construction ahead of schedule attracts bonuses for the construction company and the original plan had been to finish the tunnel before last Christmas.

But the rush to finish before deadline prompted safety concerns that were exacerbated after worker Ronald Shore was killed when a boulder fell on him from the tunnel roof in July last year.

Construction work in the tunnel was halted for two weeks following the death, further delaying the proposed opening time.

SIGN OF THE TIMES

 Eight 100-tonne road header machines were used to excavate almost 700,000 cubic metres of soil from under the CBD.

 The 2.1-kilometre long cavity has more than 32,000 cubic metres of concrete, 420 kilometres of electrical cable and 4500 cubic metres of asphalt.

 The tunnel will be Sydney's first full electronic, cashless road toll and is designed to carry 90,000 vehicles a day.

 It has two lanes in each direction.

Is there a way out for Sydney? Can they fix years of lack of investment in infrastructure or is it just too late and better to relocate a lot of companies away from Sin City and just let it be?

I'd be looking at double decker buses, allowing all-comers to run rikki style buses like you get in Turkey and a massive underground train system.

:cheers:

I can easily say build more freeways from x to y, but in the long run it does nothing. The roads will quickly revert back to where they were before they were opened.

Trucks and heavy vehicles account for much of the gridlock on Sydney's roads. The proposals to build freight terminals at Glenfield and Enfield to carry freight from Port Botany to the west is a sound idea and is a start.

Another idea I suggestt is getting tough on cars carrying the one person. I'd like to see more T2 and T3 lanes on major roads. Carpooling must be encouraged in the inner city and maybe provide incentives to those who wish to do ie discounted parking

There should be more emphasis on decentralisation and taking the jobs to the people instead of having people come to it. It then averts the need for people to travel far to the places of work.

Improving public transport is the only other way out. The government must commit to their expansion of the train network but also upgrade existing infrastructure and imporve the quality of services. Many are put off public transport because of the unreliable services including longer commute times and delays (many due to matters that are trivial). Fares need to be capped too.

If any city is in a position to clear it's congestion it's sydney - there are more skyscraper hubs in that city than anywhere else in the country - meaning there is more commercial activity going on outside the CBD - what the government needs to do is create sufficient links to all these places (Chatswood, Hornsby, Parramatta etc).

They also need to invest in tram lines. The more I use trams in Melbourne the more I'm convinced other cities should have them. Don't waste time on studies and pussyfooting though - get in there decide on some routes which aren't covered by the train and lay the tracks. Even if it takes space from other road users, they'll have an alternative on those roads.

(PS Kinda pisses me off when you talk to someone here in Geelong and say that we should have trams to the CBD our roads are wide enough - people recoil in NIIMBY horror as if the reason they moved to Geelong was so they didn't share road-space with a tram! Australians need to lighten up when it comes to PT)

Oh lord don't get me started on the small minded, anti-development, hicks that populate Geelong! They live in a fantasy where Geelong is a nice place to live.

Don't get me wrong - I love it but there are so many thing the council and the state govt could be doing to develop the place and they don't. The council is anti-development. Sometimes I think the only people who want highrise in Geelong are me and people that write for the Advertiser. Look at how much trouble it been to get a friggin BIG W in, in a city of 200,000 no less! A Bit off topic - maybe I should start a new thread about this!

Don't get me wrong - I love it but there are so many thing the council and the state govt could be doing to develop the place and they don't. The council is anti-development. Sometimes I think the only people who want highrise in Geelong are me and people that write for the Advertiser. Look at how much trouble it been to get a friggin BIG W in, in a city of 200,000 no less! A Bit off topic - maybe I should start a new thread about this!

This Geelong thing sounds interesting.A bit like Bondi in Syndey.

I would like to know more about this

I think Sydneys problems can only be cured by getting people out of cars, A way to do this would to put more rail in, build/upgrade stations, Have a busway or light rail that connects stations with suburbs and after all that's done put a tax on fuel, a tax on new cars and higher regisrations costs.

At first people will go off their brain, they might still be unhappy years later, but it will help Sydney in so many ways, It will take away alot of pollution that is created by cars and it will help Sydney protect itself from the possibility of an oil crisis.

They have a western Transitway (we call them Busways in Queensland) between Liverpool and Parramatta, but it's been done on the cheap and doesn't look particularly effective.

More trams, better trains (start with efficient management at RailCorp), raise tolls and taxes on car ownership, less buses (they are part of the innercity congestion) ..... all in all: put more $$$ into public transport - and get part of it from the people who think they need to drive into the city to work.

.... I know it's not fair to everyone, but IMO that's the only way to change people's behaviour, reduce the gridlock and improve public transport.

I think Sydneys problems can only be cured by getting people out of cars, A way to do this would to put more rail in, build/upgrade stations, Have a busway or light rail that connects stations with suburbs and after all that's done put a tax on fuel, a tax on new cars and higher regisrations costs.

At first people will go off their brain, they might still be unhappy years later, but it will help Sydney in so many ways, It will take away alot of pollution that is created by cars and it will help Sydney protect itself from the possibility of an oil crisis.

I agree

A simple ticketing system.One ticket covers all transport.

Heavy rail converted to highspeed express lines only.

Metro rail to blanket the dense suburbs in a grid like fashion.

Light rail to service small inner areas of on the city,Parramatta and other cities within the CBD.All connecting up to the metro and heavy rail.

Buses to feed the metro and Heavy rail in the lighter densly populated areas

They have a western Transitway (we call them Busways in Queensland) between Liverpool and Parramatta, but it's been done on the cheap and doesn't look particularly effective.
Many people use the Transitway (T-way) buses; the stations and network is nice and well-maintained. They are filled to capacity during peak hours, though it isn't very effective as it makes the traffic around the area worse with more sets of lights, which cars have to give wayss to

Many people use the Transitway (T-way) buses; the stations and network is nice and well-maintained. They are filled to capacity during peak hours, though it isn't very effective as it makes the traffic around the area worse with more sets of lights, which cars have to give wayss to

That's great to hear that the infrastructure investment is being used :)

The South East Busway in Brisbane has been quite successful too. Brisbane Transport had to dramatically increase the bus frequencies to cope with demand.

How about putting Sydney into zones

E.g 1 zone would cost 2.50/4.50 return
2 Zone's would cost $5.00/9.00 return
3 Zone's would cost $7.00/12.00 return
4 Zone's would cost $10.00/17.00 return
5 Zone's would cost $15.00/23.00 return

It would spread the ticket prices out a little more even imo.

But the hard part would be determining which zone is which and what not, The Sydney network is so messy and random it would be a hard task.

where would Zone 5 stretch to? Goulburn?! Those prices are huge.

I agree, those prices are quite high.

They have a western Transitway (we call them Busways in Queensland) between Liverpool and Parramatta, but it's been done on the cheap and doesn't look particularly effective.

Keep in mind that that transitway is one of the few forward thinking moves of the NSW government of recent times; it was constructed with the possibility to upgrade it to a tramway in mind.

We need to get out of a roads mentality. Buses need to be booted out of the CBD and replaced with Light Rail. They can take waay more people. Then what you do is move the bus terminal to Central or something, so it's truly a transit hub.

That and build the new city line NOW and not in 10 years...

The Parra and Livo T-Way is very well utilised considering this is the outer suburbs and the line is more of a cross-suburban and feeder route rather than an a city-bound trunk route. During peak hour, buses get full well before reaching their destination.

Cee_em_bee, I'm all for an integrated fares system across Sydney. Some of your fares sound pricey if it only covers metro Sydney, but I spose we've got to reduce the subsidy for PT services somehow. But my main gripe is with return fares. I perfer the Metcard system, where you can pay for each trip as a single, or just buy a daily ticket. They are far more flexible than return tickets, reflect the erratic nature of trips in many of our working and non-working lives, and daily tickets still provide some serious bang for your buck.
http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/metcard/fares_zones/


Most of you guys may have seen this on numerous occassions before (Hornetfig in particular), but Nick, this was my attempt at a bus route network for Auburn Municipailty, half of Bankstown City, Most of Fairfield City, and some of Liverpool City, a combination of grid and feeder routes, as direct as possible, or atleast travelling on mainly direct roads.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7469/busmap0fi.th.png (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=busmap0fi.png)

5 Zone's would cost $15.00/23.00 return
thats gotta be per week !

The Parra and Livo T-Way is very well utilised considering this is the outer suburbs and the line is more of a cross-suburban and feeder route rather than an a city-bound trunk route. During peak hour, buses get full well before reaching their destination.

Cee_em_bee, I'm all for an integrated fares system across Sydney. Some of your fares sound pricey if it only covers metro Sydney, but I spose we've got to reduce the subsidy for PT services somehow. But my main gripe is with return fares. I perfer the Metcard system, where you can pay for each trip as a single, or just buy a daily ticket. They are far more flexible than return tickets, reflect the erratic nature of trips in many of our working and non-working lives, and daily tickets still provide some serious bang for your buck.
http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/metcard/fares_zones/


Most of you guys may have seen this on numerous occassions before (Hornetfig in particular), but Nick, this was my attempt at a bus route network for Auburn Municipailty, half of Bankstown City, Most of Fairfield City, and some of Liverpool City, a combination of grid and feeder routes, as direct as possible, or atleast travelling on mainly direct roads.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7469/busmap0fi.th.png (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=busmap0fi.png)

I cant get a good view of it when im sent to the website.

Buses are fine.As long as they are not caught in Traffic.The busway from Liverpool to Parramatta sounds like a good and workable solution.It could be converted to light rail someday.

Most of you guys may have seen this on numerous occassions before (Hornetfig in particular), but Nick, this was my attempt at a bus route network for Auburn Municipailty, half of Bankstown City, Most of Fairfield City, and some of Liverpool City, a combination of grid and feeder routes, as direct as possible, or atleast travelling on mainly direct roads.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7469/busmap0fi.th.png (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=busmap0fi.png)

Now, imagine that as a tram network... Imagine how many more people it could handle!

Now, imagine that as a tram network... Imagine how many more people it could handle!

Imagine that it was a tram network but the trams were seprated from the traffic in the middle of the road(refer to Dr Joe's post in Syndey Tram thread),then you would have a real people mover.Perfect for medium density areas.When the densities get too high then its METRO TIME

Nick, when the pic/site loads on your screen, just left click the pic and it'll expand to full size.

You may have missed imageshack's msg on the top of the page:
"This image has been scaled down to fit your computer screen. Click on it to show it in the original size."