Well the last one seems to have been lost to the hackers so I guess a new one is deserved considering ;) ...

:banana: :cucumber: :carrot: :master: ARENA CENTRAL MASTERPLAN TO BE AGREED AUTUMN THIS YEAR - WORK TO COMMENCE LATE 2005/EARLY 2006 :banana: :cucumber: :carrot: :master:

and where did you hear this my friend?

Biosonic chief - it was on Central News, or so he says ;) :cheers:

well hopefully we get renderings of it soon

It wasn't on Central News!!!!

It was just a play on words - Arena Central News - because it is the old site of Central TV...

I won't be a smart-arse in the future :)

Nothing really much more to say other than "watch this space" - there appear to be no clues as to what's happening, but you can bet your life it will include Grade A offices, residential and maybe a smattering of leisure (restaurants etc?).

Bionsonic - how do you know this? P.S you should be a cryptic writer ;)

:wink2:

:wink2:

You have a very noticeble twitch there Bio ;) (Common gossip man, we are relying on you now for all our info) :hahaha: :cheers1:

I hope they're keeping the lake that can be frozen into an ice rink.
What a feature that would be. Would be something that anyone visiting/staying in Arena Central would remember their visit by.

You never know we might even get...........
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/5095/hyatt15ek.png

Well hopefully a none leaning one :tongue3:

Oi, I like the leaning one :)

Cool. Does the fact the there is a separate masterplan suggest that it's going to be more of a collection of developments than the single uber-scheme that was originally planned?

Any whiff of who might be designing it?

Cool. Does the fact the there is a separate masterplan suggest that it's going to be more of a collection of developments than the single uber-scheme that was originally planned?

Any whiff of who might be designing it?

Yeh more then likely - they say to expect 1 landmark tower and a couple smaller office towers. If thats the case then it will really make this part of town very dense.

I would settle for 1, 120m tower and 2 80-100m towers in this part of the city, although I would still love a 150m tower, im not really sure if its viable within the councils new high-rise plans.

The Arena Central site Phase 1 was completed in 2003 to the left of this shot.

http://www.knightfrank.com/propertyImages/brm040203_01.jpg

http://www.miller.co.uk/uploaded/project_ims/developments/ARENA_CENTRAL_AERIAL_April_2005.jpg

Biosonic - do you have any rumours floating around sguggesting what's been included in the masterplan? any significant tower? :cheers1:

well given all the info ive had of this scheme, i am expecting a majority of the buildings to be of similar scale to CP...obviously with exception to the main tower

as u can see from this picture, that would make the scheme hugely dense!

http://www.miller.co.uk/uploaded/project_ims/developments/ARENA_CENTRAL_AERIAL_April_2005.jpg

For about the 15th time since I joined ssc I'm starting to get excited by this project!! :)

Smiley,,,why do you do it to yourself,,,?

Only get excited when the fukka starts,,,:)

I'll be of such an old age by then that the excitement will probably kill me

arena central where ! where ! pah ! anyone for a pint ? :cheers:

Woodhousen is that in floors or height? Because like you say, a couple 20 storey office towers and a major tower will act as its very own high-rise cluster, with CP, Alpha and Hyatt all surround them and Orion and JB just acorss the road. I personally think the scheme would be better fitted with smaller yet higher frequency of office towers, then one single skyscraper, but then again thats just my thoughts. :cheers1:

I'm guessing he's talking more along the lines of floorspace and massing.

I'm guessing he's talking more along the lines of floorspace and massing.

Well to be honest, I hope not, I think 3 -4 fat towers on this site will look unhealthy. I will settle for some thin high-rises but a dont want a big concrete slab put down with a few peaks here and there. I would like to see the area maxmimise the canal and hopefully implement some cafe's and retail aspects to the scheme where needed. I dont expect to see any of the towers as wide as HCT and as fat as Orion.

well eitherway, its going to be huge!

Far from the reality of it, we will have to content ourselves with these impressions for the foreseeable future.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/MartianG/NewBrumtowers1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/MartianG/NewBrumtowers2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/MartianG/ArenaCentralBAlphaTower5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/MartianG/ArenaCentralDusk.jpg

:D wow! well done martin looking very impressive! Will be great to see all these towers built!
What's the tower to the far right?

That last pic is still my favourite, I think EK took it with his camera phone and MG worked his magic on it.

:D wow! well done martin looking very impressive! Will be great to see all these towers built!
What's the tower to the far right?


That one was my fantasy proposal for a 600-700ft high Colmore Circus Tower which I came up with a few years back. Too bad the bloody architects for the Bishopsgate Tower in London have now all but ripped off lock stock and barrel my spiral design for the top of the building. Maybe I should sue the fuckers! ;)

That last pic is still my favourite, I think EK took it with his camera phone and MG worked his magic on it.

Yeah - it was a good one that one - a totally spontaneous thing that I pulled off in about an hour. Thanks to EK too - it was our special co-production! :D

Yeah - it was a good one that one - a totally spontaneous thing that I pulled off in about an hour. Thanks to EK too - it was our special co-production! :D

It looks almost 300m there :hahaha:

I know! That was fully intentional - and, you'll notice, also on the pic above it too for exactly the same reason.... :lol: :lol:

......and it's straight

Obviously!

But then what do I know about the sexual orientation of buildings anyway?

......and it's straight

Lol, DROP IT SMILEY :rofl:

Predict your Arena Central masterplan on other thread, It be fun :cheers:

Ok the subject's dropped I promise (fingers crossed)

*cums all over*

I found this old picture on Google - with the rather ill-informed Post and Mail and a very optimistic Rotunda ;), but apart from that and all the other new towers missing, how amazing will something like this look.

http://images.google.co.uk/url?q=http://tinypic.com/cotx0

hey thats my award winning picture!!!

Well seeing as the last thread has gone I thought it was time for some news.

The master plan is close to being finalised, never mind the C.A.A., the amount of "underground" obstacles to deal with on this site are not to be sniffed at! I won't go into detail but as we have heard before, rail tunnels, cooling systems etc.

More meetings with planning will be taking place shortly and as soon as this is sorted the cgi modelings for the initial presentations will be started on.

Miller are quite aware of the new Richardson's tower and are not too bothered (although a project like this and so close is bound to have put the pressure on with regards to completion date, sales etc.), When asked about the 38 storeys their opinion is that they are just gonna have to go that little bit taller, which they can also do if they wish as they have a mechanism in place to challenge the C.A.A. height limits with a professional aviation expert on board who deals with looking into Health & Safety issues regarding a building that might breach the areodrome limit. They are apparently NOT on the main flightpath, this does not guarantee we are going to see a skyscraper though, as I said a few months back, market forces = height of a tower, no one has a crystal ball and lets face it, the main issue is are Miller/Ruhan going to get profit from a 500/600 ft skyscraper? if the answer is yes then I am confident they will try and build it, personally I reckon we could be looking at 130-140 metres but then it really is anybodys guess other than it's most likely to be taller than Tramps Tower.

grrrrr, cant wait to see the new product

BTW, does anyone know who the architects are, is it one practice? or several like brindleyplace....are Morse Deisel still involved with the Tower ? and please dont let is be Level Seven if the Richardson clan are involved !!!

Does anyone know this ? it may give an indication of the style/quality of buldings to expect

Thanks for that EK - interesting news, I was aware that the CAA regulations were scrapped in late 2003 althought the council kept them, but they could be challenged if wanted to.

I dont like the sound of underground obsticles, hopefully they can work around this but its good to hear they have professional aviation expert on board although surely if this is the case, they want to build as high as possible? correct? :dunno:

Anyway anything taller then we already have is good news to my ears and im sure everyone else (apart from Earlybird), lets just hope the masterplan is of high quality design :cheers:

Do you know when we shall see the first renders, or here the first news of the project?

ignore my hasty and now deleated post

all sounding very promising....and the fact they have a aviation specialist on hand is VERY encouraging!

can't give an exact date but progress is being made, yes woody I though the same. Why do I get the feeling that this could end up being a little battle between who lays claim to Brums tallest ressi tower, A.C. must have the upper hand surely, they have had the council on board right from the start.

EK you seem very knowledgable, do you know who the architects or masterplanners are ?

ignore my hasty and now deleated post

Oh, what did you put?

Can i ask...will the new design have to go before the council for permission as its not the same as the original design. Or can they start constuction when they like?

Nice one EK! It all sounds very promising... :)

I would love to see something like a conical tower on this site. I am sure the architects and developers are very aware that when people leave the new New St Station (which looks to have a major entrance on Navigation St/Hill St), if AC is big enough it will be the first thing they see.

Imagine the vista from that entrance - AC, Alpha, Orion, Orion 2, HCT and BST in the distance...

arena central......come-on baby!

This is our chance to make a stance against that dull grey northern city up north :hahaha: I hope its something to be proud off :cheers1:

In 7 or 8 years tinme, standing on top of BST and looking toward town will be amazing....

if it all goes according to plan........

Can i ask...will the new design have to go before the council for permission as its not the same as the original design. Or can they start constuction when they like?

I should think that planning will have to be granted for an initial site outline? then if the main tower is going to be taller than 120 metres high further reports on impact of any breach of aerodrome will be undertaken and then have to be agreed with BIA and council, that could be a long process?

I found this old picture on Google - with the rather ill-informed Post and Mail and a very optimistic Rotunda ;), but apart from that and all the other new towers missing, how amazing will something like this look.

http://images.google.co.uk/url?q=http://tinypic.com/cotx0


^^^
Too fucking right this would look the bomb - it's utterly fantastic - imagine what could have been! Now add some of the towers I put in my own impressions to this skyline and you will have something quite formidable indeed - Manchester wouldn't be a patch on this, even with all its new monster 'scraper schemes completed!

I should think that planning will have to be granted for an initial site outline? then if the main tower is going to be taller than 120 metres high further reports on impact of any breach of aerodrome will be undertaken and then have to be agreed with BIA and council, that could be a long process?

Well if the "City Heights" programme is to believed, It will be sorted sooner rather then later.

I would have thought it common sense to build the main tower last that way the demand and success of the scheme can be measured and the appriopiate scale buildings built.

Even when the masterplan is revealed, the uncertainty over the height of the final tower will still be there.

I would have thought it common sense to build the main tower last that way the demand and success of the scheme can be measured and the appriopiate scale buildings built.

Even when the masterplan is revealed, the uncertainty over the height of the final tower will still be there.

True, but it will give us an incline of what to expect. Also about building the main tower last, you would think so, but we are not even sure yet if there is gonna be anything more then the mian tower and an atrium.

Well if the "City Heights" programme is to believed, It will be sorted sooner rather then later.

Where is this "City Heights" BC? I would like to peruse the aforementioned document...

Where is this "City Heights" BC? I would like to peruse the aforementioned document...

As we discussed the other day - it seems to be a 3D computer programme which enables planners and developers the chance to locate plots where height restrictions dont apply, or something like that.

this project could eithier be amazing or a comlete let down,that skyline picture shows how amazing it would look, hopefully the developers think this too

re "city heights" are we not getting confused with the "high places document"?

re "city heights" are we not getting confused with the "high places document"?

Its in conjunction with it, but I make out all it is is a computer programme produced to highlight in 3d where in the city its possible to avoid the height restrictions. but as its been said already, the height restrictions are no more to do with the CAA but the council.

not, theres a pdf with this thing cal "cities heights" but looks like notihg id get worried bout

What a view this will be when AC and the Cube are built :runaway:

http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/wheel/south.jpg

Or even this, with Orion peeping its nose in ;) :hahaha:

http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/wheel/alpha1.jpg

well unfortunately i think u've missed the location where the most impressive towers will be lol

well unfortunately i think u've missed the location where the most impressive towers will be lol

And those would be? :dunno: Arena Central should be fat enough to get into the first shot at least and hopefully would sneak just into the 2nd pic. The Cube will most definately be visable in the first pic.

Here we are BC - not such a great panorama in a few years (but it pleases me nevertheless!)

I have put Park Central tower in the background...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/Biosonic/south1.jpg

God, it feels like ages, any news on a press release or presentation?

Yeah it feels like its been nearly a decade!
....oh wait it has!

3 weeks passed, Woody was wrong, its Bio's tunr now, he said October so I guess we shall wait till then :(

lol well thanx
just the information i was going on!

where is BIO? he did say he may be unable to post on here again, seeems a shame as he had always inside information

where did bio say that?

Found this while searching the net http://www.backfpc.com/sectors/citycentremixed.htm, the back group is a construction cost consultancy firm with a role in arena central and Edgbaston shopping centre.

They have this image for arena central
http://www.backfpc.com/images/projects/arenacentral.jpg

Can't tell if its a sketch of the old scheme or the new miller scheme too small to tell, but looks like it has a big tower in it.

BIO said that a while ago

It looks good, but I think that was the original masterplan - if only that was built :(

yeah that sketch is VERY old

Carrot

This is good news which could subsequently affect the height of our beast :)

Miller Group pre-tax profits up 63%
15 September, 2005

UK’s largest private housebuilder flourishes despite slow market conditions nationwide.

It won't affect the height - they won't do anything risky on this just because they've made a few more quid.

It depends on whether it is speculative though - if so the bank might lend more money to make it fancier/higher. :)

It won't affect the height - they won't do anything risky on this just because they've made a few more quid.

It depends on whether it is speculative though - if so the bank might lend more money to make it fancier/higher. :)


If there making money from a "slow market" it means there more then likely to go for something a bit bigger then they would've done if they had been losing money.

Sure they wont do anything risky, who would? but when the market does pick up hopefully over the next 18 months, Miller will take this into account and build for that time. Money now in a slow market means more money in a strong market. Not hard to understand ;)

What's wrong the orginal design? Looked good to me, and it's already, err. planned and got building permission?

uneconomical , plus that was not really what it was gonna look like

If there making money from a "slow market" it means there more then likely to go for something a bit bigger then they would've done if they had been losing money.

Sure they wont do anything risky, who would? but when the market does pick up hopefully over the next 18 months, Miller will take this into account and build for that time. Money now in a slow market means more money in a strong market. Not hard to understand ;)

Not necessarily - other developers are strong in a strong market, and a development, when you count all the other factors in, has an optimum size & appearance etc etc.

It just depends on the competition, money spent on the design so far, speculation, prestige - there are so many factors involved. If it was just "more money in strong market" then Orion would have been bigger, better, and West2 etc would have been better.

I am undoubted that they will go for something impressive, but bearing in mind that it will take a couple of years to build, they have to think of what the market will be like in 3-5 years.

I think it's gonna be good though BC :)

Anyway, in today's Birmingham Post, the wonderful headline of "Arena Central 'on hold'"

But it is not as it seems! Bit of slack reporting because we all know that the initial designs are due to be released this autumn/winter, but the Post don't. In the article the council have said they haven't received a detailed planning application yet. But they said they expect it to come in this autumn. AC has received outline permission from the gov't in 2000.

The finance director of Miller said he expects to see a start on site "in 6 months to a year" (which fits in with what we know).

But (get this) Miller envisage the site "being transformed into one of the UK's largest city centre developments with up to 2.3 million sq ft of offices, plus residential, leisure & retail space" (this will include Alpha Tower).

"The application includes the construction of a tower on the site" :)

The finance director goes on to say "we are proposing to create 2000 residential units with around 500 of them in the tower and the overall cost of the project would be around half a billion pounds".

2000 units! That's more than Park Central!!!

AND 500 in the tower? That would make it twice the size of the Rotunda, or about 50% larger than HCT or BST.

Now undoubtedly the tower will be bulkier, and have a low-rise element to it, but it does give us some hope... :) :) :)

That's about as promising as this project gets :)

Thanks for the information Biosonic.

500 units? Umm think that just about gurantees us a 130m+ tower, unless they are literally only 40sqm a piece and the Tower is fatter then Orion is long :dunno: ...

2000 units in total? shit me ... thats is gigantic, the equivelent get this of ...

*5 Broad Street Towers or
*7 Rotunda's or
*6 Holloway Circus Towers
*2/3 of the residential units in Eastside

not to mention over 500,000 sqft of office space (not including Alpha Tower which stands at 100m - 27 storeys with 200,000sqft of office space) and the Crowne Plaza Hotel.

They also aim to create 8,000 jobs :runaway: now I think we all know that 8,000 people is an awful lot, more then the number of people working in the Bull-ring :yes:

Damn this project is gonna be amazing I just wanna see in the new masterplan I jusat hope we are not disappointed.

Here's the article.

Arena Central 'on hold' Sep 15 2005
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



By John Marsden


Work on the huge £500 million Arena Central development in Birmingham is likely be put on hold for at least six months, a developer has revealed.

The Miller Group, one of two firms behind the long-awaited project, said the final details of a revamped masterplan for the scheme were being thrashed out. In March, Edinburghbased Miller said work might start on the project this year if a plan was submitted to Birmingham City Council and it gained consent.

A spokeswoman for the council said the authority had to approve a detailed application for the work to go ahead but it had not yet received one. She said: "We expect it to come in this autumn." Outline planning permission for the project was granted by the Government in 2000, she said.

Miller finance director John Richards said yesterday: "Outline consent has already been granted and we are now working towards getting final detailed planning approval. It's difficult to tell time-scales where planning issues are concerned but we're probably looking at work proper starting in six months to a year."

Miller and Bridgehouse Capital, the investment company set up by Midland millionaire Andy Ruhan, are behind a joint venture, Arena Central Developments, which is running the project.

The partners merged their land interests on the Arena Central site in the city centre, which involves the Alpha Tower and the former ATV premises.

They envisage the 7.6 acre site will be transformed into one of the UK's largest city centre developments with up to 2.3 million sq ft of offices, plus residential, leisure and retail space. The application includes the construction of a tower on the site. Once under way the project may create 2,000 new jobs.

Mr Richards said: "We are proposing to create 2,000 residential units with around 500 of them in the tower and the overall cost of the project would be around half a billion pounds." The initial proposal involved a 175 metre high tower, the tallest building outside London.

Those plans were thrown into doubt following the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Meanwhile Miller Group chief executive Keith Miller unveiled half yearly results which showed a 12th successive year of interim profit growth.

He reported a 63 per cent increase in profit before tax to £38.7 million and the company increased its interim share dividend by 25 per cent to

11.4p per share, up from 9.1p.

Chairman Bob Speirs said the period had shown excellent progress for the group.

Profit before interest and disposal of fixed assets was £41.1 million, a 28 per cent increase.

Finance director Mr Richards said the group had a range of housing projects in the Midlands but they tended to be weighted towards the east of the region. A greater emphasis would be placed on developing the West Midlands market, he added.

Projects include developments in Wolverhampton; Solihull; St Paul's Square, Birmingham; Warwick and Great Barr.

How many "units" are there in HCT(including the hotel) and in Orion?Do people think that Alpha will get a spruce up?It looks OK but in five years with all this development around it I imagine it'll look a little shoddy.

I think alpha just needs a scrub and a decent lighting scheme, its a great piece of design and although dated, its dates in a good way, it has not ages badly like some of the buildings from its period x

500 units in one tower is alot, 10 units per floor is 50 storeys......and ten units on a floor is alot....the footprint for the tower is not massive so something elegant could be on the cards

I seem to remember one of the manchester tall towers had 400 units (please dont quote me i could be wrong)

six months to year means they must be submitting the detailed planning application soon as it will take that long to get through planning

220 hotel rooms and 150 flats in HCT.

I seem to remember one of the manchester tall towers had 400 units (please dont quote me i could be wrong)


If you add hotel+flats its:

650 in Eastgate (188m)
401 in Beetham (157m)
237 in Crown (131m)

Thanks for the info.

Flast should be larger than hotel rooms on average but the ceiling might be lower- is there any difference in height in hCT besides the bottm three floors?

look guys, its gonna be 39 storeys lets just leave it at that eh ;)

"We are proposing to create 2,000 residential units with around 500 of them in the tower and the overall cost of the project would be around half a billion pounds."

Blimey, this is just amazing.

so has it been built yet yawn :cheers: plans sound good

its some good news, and at least its still has nt gone away, if you look at this.......


650 in Eastgate (188m)
500 in ARENA CENTRAL (175m ???)
401 in Beetham (157m)
237 in Crown (131m)


then we may well be seeing ac at 175m after all????? depends on the size of the floor plate i suppose

Im starting to think AC will be something rather big ... the report said

The initial proposal involved a 175 metre high tower, the tallest building outside London.

Those plans were thrown into doubt following the September 11 terrorist attacks.

But it doesnt say it was cancelled, It could be bad reporting or maybe Miller are gonna try and build as tall as they can, not to mention theres gonna be some retail and hopefully a hotel within the tower aswell :dunno:

I think we are looking at something of at least 150m now, considering they have to fit 2.3m sqft of offices etc on a plot smaller then Masshouse which has 7 towers ranging from 45-75m and only 1.1m sqft of space

Oh and if the main tower is all residential/retail we should expect to see at least 1 office tower about 60-80m I would've thought

a letter in the birmingham post today by an architecture proffessor shines a light on the Posts journalism, he states they they printed only half of his letter regards the eastside library and clears up the confusion between the Norwich Forum (whitbys inspiration) and the siansburys library at the university....he said Whitby was ignorant regarding architecture, lol, and the journalist too

...But it doesnt say it was cancelled, It could be bad reporting or maybe Miller are gonna try and build as tall as they can, not to mention theres gonna be some retail and hopefully a hotel within the tower aswell :dunno: ...

Might be a spot of cunning reporting BC - the report does kind of leave it open ended doesn't it? It doesn't categorically state either way.

Oh and if the main tower is all residential/retail we should expect to see at least 1 office tower about 60-80m I would've thought

I guess it depends on where they want to place the offices. If it is going to be a mid/high rise then they won't want shadows being cast over the resi block.

Whatever happens, in order to cope with that amount of people, there needs to be one hell of an infrastructure upgrade, and the trams up Broad St would only form part of that. Is it beyond the realms of possiblility that there could be a railway station between Five Ways & New St?

lol the post dnt seem to be on the same planet....miller saying that the AC project wil not start fro another 6 months is not putting it on hold.....if anything this is great news lol!

Woodhousen how was your trip to Spain?Where did you go?

Whatever happens, in order to cope with that amount of people, there needs to be one hell of an infrastructure upgrade, and the trams up Broad St would only form part of that. Is it beyond the realms of possiblility that there could be a railway station between Five Ways & New St?

The council fought for some time to have an underground heavy rail station to service the area .SR scuppered the project.There are tunnels around there and I remember reading a couple of years ago that AC will have to take these into account when development starts to safeguard their use sometime in the future.However,the Metro is the only peice of new infrastructure to serve the new development.A new bridge will be constructed to take it over The Queensway.AC will imagine be 'persuaded' to contribute to the Metro's funding.

'persuaded' to contribute to the Metro's funding.

The following was printed in 98'!!


24th September 1998 Hampton Trust, which is hoping to redevelop the area around the former Central Television studios in Broad Street, pledged to invest £5M on building a tram stop outside its site and also £2M on highway safety. As yet planning permission has not been given for the development.

Nice one Nacho :)

well has anyone seen the new advert for Ballymore's "Pan Peninsula" next to Canary Wharf in the property papers? It's a slim 50 storey resi tower of fairly basic design with a 50th floor cocktail bar and holistic spa. Ballymore are developers for Snow Hill aren't they? the tower looks similar design to those renders we saw a while back of snow hill towers. Something like this would suite AC site perfectly.

Can we have them at Snow Hill instead??? Please!

not on your life mate

part of the site is for sale, yes sale

the old tsb bank has a huge for sale banner.

not sure if they are selling the building to get funds to start the scheme or if this building is the first part pf the scheme

whatever, something is beginning, at last x

Thanks for the update.

amazing, there is actually some real life action at Arena Central and NOBODY has a comment or anything to say ???? bizarre

amazing, there is actually some real life action at Arena Central and NOBODY has a comment or anything to say ???? bizarre

We still havn't seen the plans so we don't know if the banks going to be kept or not (I hope kept, because it's a nice little building), maybe it's got nowt to do with AC at all.

Maybe someone could ask the sellers about the proposed AC as regards land lease or something. Remember to put your Sunday best accent on!

Give it another 15-20 years and we might just see some very small hoardings go up around the site - but then that might just be Tony Robinson and his weirdo beardo chums filming a new Time Team Special on the old ATV studios and Holiday Inn Hotel site.

Sorry this has just reminded me. I spotted in Estates Gazette last week a full page advert for the old TSB building, and there were a couple of photo's of the two floors.

It's very grand inside with elaborate plasterwork typical of that age of banking building in Birmingham. Reminded me of the Bennets pub and the old midland bank which is now Webb Gray architects own office. I can't recall if it was being offered as an office or leisure opportunity but I did think I would make a fantastic restaurant.

Incidentally, I walked past exactly the same building - also a TSB - just off princes street in Edinburgh. That was strange

The TSB started in Brum along with Midland and Lloyds, proving that Brum wasn't just a dirty face but a nice clean and financial one too!
It's a lovely 30s building isn't it? Hopefully we'll get a fit out inside and a nice restaurant as Foxy says.

I noticed that 'for sale' sign last week. I wonder why they didin't put it up for sale sooner, after all its been empty for ages?

In the original plans it was to be a restaurant, thats why i wandered if Miller were refurbing it and selling it, or if they are selling it to finance a start on site in the near future

well how is it being sold....as a derelect unused building or as a future resturant?

thats it, it does not say, it just says for sale, I think its the building itself, not redeveloped

Come on you shitheads, shows us the new masterplan

end of october isnt it

which year? I've kind of got a bit bored waiting a decade

^^ Oh that's not a problem. We're all going to have beards the length of the M6 by the time Brum gets the go ahead for a proper skyscraper.

http://images.google.ca/url?q=http://www.npentertainment.com/GlassesHeadshot

As old as him?

http://tinypic.com/ehww04.jpg

Nice work Foxtrot - it's beautiful inside and out. I hope there's going to be a good selection of bars & restaurants in AC - I can see myself dining out in a prestigious location such as that ;)

I can see myself drinking in a prestigious location such as that

I can see myself being bared from entry to a prestigious location such as that

I can see myself being bared from entry to a prestigious location such as that

:lol:

I can see me getting asked to leave on more than one occasion ;)

'ultimate bar and restaurant location' bet they turn it into a weatherspoons

or a strip club?

Well let's hope it is a strip club

Anyway where has it been anounced that they are going to announce the new masterplan. :dance: I can see myself doing that

I'm crapping myself in excitement

:badnews: I bet this is the size of the new tower If it is that is whay i'll be doing from it

Ladingham

I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. This is where we were last month http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/business/tm_objectid=16135461%26method=full%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

WHAT

DHOH ugh God Help This City

It's not really on hold, well not to us anyway - we knew this all along.

They are masterplanning and Miller say information will start flowing the end of this month!

I'm glad you said that Bio I was starting to get confused by this negative article. We're expecting a masterplan at the end of the month and what we read is how work isn't going to start for 'till 6 months after that.
Hardly warrants a headline of "Arena Central 'on hold'"! But I suppose it catches the eye better than "No news on masterplan, yet".

Blunther
If we get the masterplan in by the end of this month, and it includes a tower taller than 140m, it's my round at the next meetup.

Blunther

but is it built yet ?

I'm glad you said that Bio I was starting to get confused by this negative article. We're expecting a masterplan at the end of the month and what we read is how work isn't going to start for 'till 6 months after that.
Hardly warrants a headline of "Arena Central 'on hold'"! But I suppose it catches the eye better than "No news on masterplan, yet".

Indeed!

If we get the masterplan in by the end of this month, and it includes a tower taller than 140m, it's my round at the next meetup.

It wouldn't surprise me if they hold of announcements until we know what's happening with BST.

but is it built yet ?

Yes it is - and it's hiding and we're not going to tell you where it is :baeh3:

thankfully the strip club idea will be wel and truly out of the window.......and here me hoping that with spoons just next door to this im confident such a nice building is not going to be wasted.....


i cant wait to dine/drink in this amazing buildig!

Hi is the Masterplan going to be released this month if so i'll fucking crap myself.

Biosonic You said BST what is that?

Usherling

BST = Broad Street Tower

So BST or Tramps Tower lol when is construction starting

...

Good news, I think. :)

It would be nice to see a masterplan this year though. Why is it taking so long?

...

verry gd news, they are stll ushng fr the "bg twer" art f arena central, the master lan takes s lng because ths develment s blldy huge, and all the lans need t be afruved nternally fsrt. Eye am mre than hay wth "tallest res twer n cty" that means ts gng t be bgger than HCT, whether thats 10 metres r 40 metres nt even mller knw yet.

Er jah zehunetut an quay, I don't understand German or slang. lol It would be nice if you spoke normally :cheers: No offence I mean no harm :)

Usherling or Ushermash or Ladingham wich ever you decide

...

wow, how highly amusing is that lol........ however when u get ur keyboard gets fixed, u might wana re-type it just so we're all clear!?!?!?!?

wow, how highly amusing is that lol........ however when u get ur keyboard gets fixed, u might wana re-type it just so we're all clear!?!?!?!?
I chocked on my Mars Bar :)

try using a german keyboard ! bloody z's where the y's should be for a start ...so annoying using a german kezboard !

I joked that its a good thing they didnt win the war, luckily they didnt hear me :)

Elizabeth Kinoke = Cadbury's Whole Fruit 'n' Nut Combo.


:rofl: :rofl:

ha lol :hahaha:

...

"Tallest residential in Birmingham", well expect it to be 123 metres then and the usual 39 storeys. Its a far cry from the 245m we were originally promised and even miles below the 187m John-dickhead-Prescott reduced it to. Remember guys unless a magic genie changes the aerdodrome regulations, this is the only chance we have for something even approaching a skyscraper in this city. Because of that, if this is anything less than 187m it will be a disappointment to me because here, for once, we actually have a building that is allowed to be built that high but developer timidity has dwarfed it.

try using a german keyboard ! bloody z's where the y's should be for a start ...so annoying using a german kezboard !

I joked that its a good thing they didnt win the war, luckily they didnt hear me :)

If you think the German keyboards are bad try using a Belgian one you'll be totally screwed!

"Tallest residential in Birmingham", well expect it to be 123 metres then and the usual 39 storeys. Its a far cry from the 245m we were originally promised and even miles below the 187m John-dickhead-Prescott reduced it to. Remember guys unless a magic genie changes the aerdodrome regulations, this is the only chance we have for something even approaching a skyscraper in this city. Because of that, if this is anything less than 187m it will be a disappointment to me because here, for once, we actually have a building that is allowed to be built that high but developer timidity has dwarfed it.

From what Elizebeth has said, it seems that in the case of this tower, it's market forces that are having an affect on it's height. It does, after all, still have planning permission for a 187m tower. I would of thought therefore that no one could tell them they couldn't build that high, so if they wanted to, they still could. I may be horribly wrong though.

It seems something is happening, Miller have added another picture of the Arena Central sight onto thier website

http://www.miller.co.uk/uploaded/project_ims/developments/Arena_Central_Arial_update21Oct.JPG

yes, now that my keyboard is fixed, from Miller themselves, the tower will be the tallest tower block in Birmingham, we really do need Broad Street tower to go ahead at it's proposed height, this will mean we will be seeing Arena Central rising from between 135 metres + which will stand at least one third taller than the existing Alpha tower. :)

yes, now that my keyboard is fixed, from Miller themselves, the tower will be the tallest tower block in Birmingham, we really do need Broad Street tower to go ahead at it's proposed height, this will mean we will be seeing Arena Central rising from between 135 metres + which will stand at least one third taller than the existing Alpha tower. :)

Good News Then!

Any ideas when we will see the new masterplan and know for sure?

well the initial masterplan is being finalized as we speak, then I guess a press release between now and early next year which will show the buildings and their specific uses, we may get an idea of the tower or they may leave us guessing but I would imagine a modest rendering to begin with, I should imagine that the eventuallity of Broad Street tower planning consent will have some kind of effect on any final height, as I said A.C. is going to be taller than whatever Richardsons come up with and Miller have a legal expert conversing with Brum Airport right now to ensure that if they want to go high then no one is going to halt progress, this may not mean a skyscraper though, considering that at present Alpha Tower is about as high as any building can go in that location. All eyes on Richardsons planning app then.

Originally Miller said about 7 buildings, including a tall tower and possibly one or more other towers of around 20 storeys but that was a while ago so could all be low rise with one tall tower, I would imagine it to be quite slender though as I believe it will only be residential, possibly with a hotel?

It's galling to now realise that before Birmingham even has ONE building of over 140m approved for definite and given the go-ahead, Manchester will have about seven towers of considerably greater height completed - and as many as 16 more between 100m and 195m awaiting the green light.

how ofte do u really want to repeat that fact????

so weve gone form 245m to something a bit taller than the alpha tower. well that's it, it looks like birmingham has blown the only chance it will ever have for a tall building. The city really is not an interesting place as far as a page called skyscrapercity should be concerned with. It has absolutely no mojo while manchester is the new swinging baby, and this comes from a brummie. If the second city thing is about potential or vibe rather than pure population numbers ive gotta admit that manchester is way ahead on both counts.

this coupled with the thing i read in some other thread about the snowhill "rival to AC" actually being a midrise. Id say I was disappointed but I'd be lying, because I now expect the city to disappoint. I'm sure the proposal will be identical to those early midrise renders that everyone wildly dismissed as wee tiddlers compared to the huge throbbing slab of manliness that they dreamed for, yeah right.

I strongly dissagree, Birmingham has lost it's mojo due to the recent lack-lustre council, and... dare I say, a lack of Brummie's with political clout in Government. If you feel strongly about this then please write to the Birmingham Post at the very least and that includes Martin G, I have done and I have had my letters go to print on several occasions but to be honest I have rarely seen anyone else support my/our argument, BIA is too close to Brum city centre for a massive skyline but IMO the close proximity is a bonus, what did dismay me was to hear that BIA have had to cancel winter flights to parts of Italy due to lack of demand. BIA are quite vociferous but they have been kicked in the teeth with Cov Airport and damaging talk of scaling down the Airport in favour of another one further south, they can come back though and need the extra runway.

Brum's skyline is impressive for a UK city already regardless of spcific heights which to the average Jo on the street are quite irrelevant, to the majority of people walking around Birmingham the Rotunda is a skyscraper and it will soon be a fantastic shiney reclad one at that. Forget other places, focus on the second city... Anything going up taller than Alpha Tower is a bonus in my eyes, it can only get better.

To be brutally honest with you Eliz - and no disrespect either cos as you guys know I only want dearly for Brum to get its tall buildings pushed through, otherwise why else would I even be the slightest bit arsed to post on the Brum forum and share pictures with folks? - I started writing a draft of a letter that I was going to send to the B'ham Post and also via email about three weeks ago - on Woody's earlier recommendation (the Broad Street Tower business), but halfway through the first page, the reality - or what I think will be the reality - hit me like a brick wall and it was at that precise point I realised that one extra person's correspondence will probably make zero difference to our case for Brum Council or whoever it is to re-examine their policy/outlook on skyscraper schemes. So I binned the letter and decided to just resign myself to the inevitable as I don't think there is going to be much of a chance of something radical happening now.....and possibly for a long time in the future. Ghostdog has also hinted pretty much what I've long been suspecting now....Brum has had its chances. And it's blown them all. And there is no going back now, as the only way forwards is through compromise. And more mid rises. It's a completely futile case we're trying to push here, mainly cos, AC approval or not, there is very little that is happening - or going to be happening - in the city with regard to genuine tall-build schemes. Too much hearsay for my liking. And that's the way it looks like it's going to remain. Of course we can always dream and fantasise about what could feasibly be within reason....but we have to remember that dreaming is not the same as waking up to the real world. Sorry.

how ofte do u really want to repeat that fact????


I don't like repeating that stark fact any more than the next Brum-phile to be truthful with you, but sometimes we have to let reality bite us on the cheeks. The difference here, as you can see, is that whilst Brum pontificates and faffs around arguing interminably about feasibility studies and the rest of that peripheral shit, civilisation is fast moving on and Manchester - not to mention a few other cities - are diving in, grafting hard and just blooming well getting on with it.

To be brutally honest with you Eliz - and no disrespect either cos as you guys know I only want dearly for Brum to get its tall buildings pushed through, otherwise why else would I even be the slightest bit arsed to post on the Brum forum and share pictures with folks? - I started writing a draft of a letter that I was going to send to the B'ham Post and also via email about three weeks ago - on Woody's earlier recommendation (the Broad Street Tower business), but halfway through the first page, the reality - or what I think will be the reality - hit me like a brick wall and it was at that precise point I realised that one extra person's correspondence will probably make zero difference to our case for Brum Council or whoever it is to re-examine their policy/outlook on skyscraper schemes. So I binned the letter and decided to just resign myself to the inevitable as I don't think there is going to be much of a chance of something radical happening now.....and possibly for a long time in the future. Ghostdog has also hinted pretty much what I've long been suspecting now....Brum has had its chances. And it's blown them all. And there is no going back now, as the only way forwards is through compromise. And more mid rises. It's a completely futile case we're trying to push here, mainly cos, AC approval or not, there is very little that is happening - or going to be happening - in the city with regard to genuine tall-build schemes. Too much hearsay for my liking. And that's the way it looks like it's going to remain. Of course we can always dream and fantasise about what could feasibly be within reason....but we have to remember that dreaming is not the same as waking up to the real world. Sorry.

it is thought like that that actually dint help the subject. very few people actually have the details top write to support a tower like BST other than people who have been given the details because they live so close.

In the end, if you truly want tower blocks to be built in the city then write the damn letter. on a tower like this, thereare very few letter of support......and the fact that there was atleast 5 from this city would make a VERY big difference on the councils perception of public opinion.

If u did not send a letter to the council. do your lobbying, do your research, for both Martin G and Ghostdog, i do actually doubt your enthusiasm on getting towers in this city.

Martin G, you hear rumours all the time so you have some links to the industry.....use them. If you chose not to, then thats your argument, but dont come here ttalking about being "realistic" because the reality of the british planning system is that on large projects like this, the government MAKE councils listen to the public...its one of the only good things about our very slow planning system..........SO USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.


And ghostdog, other than complaining, im yet to see any pro-active response or influence you have had...and until then, really dont expect many people to take much notice of u!

I started writing a draft of a letter that I was going to send to the B'ham Post ... but halfway through the first page, the reality - or what I think will be the reality - hit me like a brick wall and it was at that precise point I realised that one extra person's correspondence will probably make zero difference
Martin, that's a self-fulfilled prophecy. If you don't send your letter because you think no-one else will send a letter, then no letters get sent. But if you send your letter, it encourages others to send a letter and letters do get sent.

Besides, why are you disheartened by the prospect of yours being the only letter. The point is: it's your letter carrying your opinion. Sod what anyone else thinks. You have the right to air your views, so do it.

One thing I learnt from dealing with comments from the public is that it's only the highly motivated that bother to write letters.
The vast majority of people are content and happy to keep plodding along. Only about 10% of people are disgruntled enough to complain and only 1% of people are motivated to say well-done or offer support.
This means is a letter offering congratulations or support is 10 times more powerful than a letter of complaint. If you make your letter positive it holds far more weight with the reader.

why is martin g and ghostdog so negative


its great news
and i am really pleased - cant wait to see these plans both fpr BST and Arena central

I don't like repeating that stark fact any more than the next Brum-phile to be truthful with you, but sometimes we have to let reality bite us on the cheeks. The difference here, as you can see, is that whilst Brum pontificates and faffs around arguing interminably about feasibility studies and the rest of that peripheral shit, civilisation is fast moving on and Manchester - not to mention a few other cities - are diving in, grafting hard and just blooming well getting on with it.

Just do it man, I have resent mine to the correct address with my real name... well a more believable one anyway :) I kept it short and to the point, if the council don't care then at least we can show that we do not accept that.

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/views/

I still have the rough draft somewhere, saved as a word file. Don't get me wrong, I love a fucking good honest and (sensibly worded) argument and I have written more letters of complaint to various bodies and organisations than most other people have done. And yes, I realise that the more correspondence the relevant parties involved receive on these matters of course the more it is ultimately going to influence their decision and way of thinking to a large degree.

So no renders yet, *crys* that sucks

So much potential on that aerial pic from the millers website.
2 towers on the paradise circus, at least 2 more on the arena central site, BST just out of shot on the right, the 2 orions, Mailbox cube and HCT just above. Development is a cyclic fashion in 'boom' areas. It only needs someone to press the green button and Brum will come right back at Manchester. Just has further to go at the moment.

It seems a lot is riding on the outcome of the BST proposal. When is it likely that we'll know if this has gone through? Is there anywhere we can write to at the coucil to express our support? I certainly feel that a city's skyline says much about it's attitude to the future and how vibrant a place it is. Great cities express this through great architecture and soaring towers!

Yes write to the post, the more letters the more likely they'll run an article on it

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/views/

there is also a planning application and contact details posted on the BST thread....thats the person in charge of this project at BCC

Well I have written some letters, not about skyscrapers but to politicians suggesting my ideas for an underground. I thing letters targeted to politicians rather than newspapers have a better chance of success, particularly if you massage their egos in the right way and give constructive criticism rather than rants. The underground was something that really had a chance of going because it only really relied on council support and funding, its failure is depressing and something I fail to understand to this day - the dithering and bloatedness seen in this country is unrivalled in my opinion. I still hope the metro extension doesnt go ahead, particularly after stumbling round Broad Street the other night at 2am.

Now skyscrapers are different and their failure in Birmingham can only really be described by the Austin Powers reference. By all accounts the council seem to like them, so perhaps the problem is BIA or perhaps it is developers themselves or perhaps Birmingham just isnt seen as a place to develop these things. It's difficult and if I thought a letter to the Post would solve it I'd send one but I really think it will do very little.

Also I really cant be bothered with this whole BST thing, what are we fighting for here? A tower that will be 10m higher than HCT, its ridiculous. As Ive said before, any developer looking at the fuss needed here simply wont bother. If letters are to be sent they should concern the bigger picture of height limitations in the city and how other cities are pushing ahead of us. We should have the same limitations as does Docklands and London City Airport. Birmingham has no historical skyline that needs preserving (unlike many other cities such as Liverpool) and is therefore perhaps the most suited British city for skyscrapers.

That is why AC is so disappointing, because for once we have somethign that can be built reasonably tall (175m) but the developers wont do it. Indeed the title tallest residential in birmingham I am sure is deliberate, meaning it will be smaller than the BT tower and probably a few metres higher than HCT. What good would a letter do here though, the developers will only construct what they can make money from or what is as little risk as possible.

Ive always loved skyscrapers and what made me think Birmingham could actually compete with that was a 245m AC and two 1000 footers at Paradise Circus. Since my initial interest all Birmingham has ever done is disappoint: a reduced HCT, an AC that is likely to be little more than 1/2 the original size, the distinctive Post and Mall and Natwest buildings being replaced by shorter bland generics, plans for a Brindley Place 2 at Paradise Circus, the rumoured "AC beater" at snowhill being the typical midrise it was always going to be. The list goes on and there has not been one good surprise. I dont know if the problem is developers or BIA or something about the culture of the city itself, Birmingham doesnt seem cool - Manchester has music, a relatively cooler accent and football teams, it has the mojo that Birmingham hasnt had in a long time. If you are to build your best tower you want to build it in a place that encapsulates the ambition behind it, Birmingham doesnt do this.

Anyhow, you all make some decent points (apart from the guy who said the airport is too close, London City Airport anyone??). I will probably send a letter to the Post at some point but probably not till I get back from Brazil, where incidentally in Sao Paulo (where I was last year) there is a tower that looks remarkably similar to the originally planned AC, so a trip there will be the only chance any of us ever get to see that ;)

I dont know if the problem is developers or BIA or something about the culture of the city itself, Birmingham doesnt seem cool - Manchester has music, a relatively cooler accent and football teams, it has the mojo that Birmingham hasnt had in a long time.

The main problem I see with Birmingham at present is people like yourself, full of negative crap, I really hope your not from Birmingham with incredulously naive views like that.

underground ?? fantasy !! agree with EK 100%

The main problem I see with Birmingham at present is people like yourself, full of negative crap, I really hope your not from Birmingham with incredulously naive views like that.
I bit of realism from some people on here is what you guys need. If you aren't realistic about what you are and where you're going then there isn't much hope of changing it.

, where incidentally in Sao Paulo (where I was last year) there is a tower that looks remarkably similar to the originally planned AC

you aint got a picture of it have you?

The main problem I see with Birmingham at present is people like yourself, full of negative crap, I really hope your not from Birmingham with incredulously naive views like that.

hey this isnt my opinion but you can bet its the general one. give me one example of a brumie personality or character on television that is portrayed as something other than simple or comical. for a 2nd city brum is appallingly represented in the media. we never had anything like the madchester scene, in fact most of the jokes seem to be about; sure manchester had the inspiral carpets, oasis etc but brum had UB40 and jasper carrot. btw I know that is shit and unrepresentative, but it is how the city is perceived.

, where incidentally in Sao Paulo (where I was last year) there is a tower that looks remarkably similar to the originally planned AC

you aint got a picture of it have you?

i dont know the rules about putting pics up from other sites so here is the link

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=312973

looking at the details it's actually smaller than I remember at only 161m at 36 (office) floors but this will still be higher than AC and I guess its roof height is similar to the original AC proposal (wasnt it 175m + 70m spire? I could be wrong on that tho). It was built in 1947 btw. I think it looks a lot taller than it is because it is on high land in Sao Paulo.

I bit of realism from some people on here is what you guys need. If you aren't realistic about what you are and where you're going then there isn't much hope of changing it.

http://www.puffins-brixham.velnet.co.uk/nick/loser.bmp

hehe

hey this isnt my opinion but you can bet its the general one. give me one example of a brumie personality or character on television that is portrayed as something other than simple or comical. for a 2nd city brum is appallingly represented in the media. we never had anything like the madchester scene, in fact most of the jokes seem to be about; sure manchester had the inspiral carpets, oasis etc but brum had UB40 and jasper carrot. btw I know that is shit and unrepresentative, but it is how the city is perceived.

I think you need to get over what other people may or may not think, I personally couldn't give a fuck, educate yourself about Birmingham and next time some little fuckwit like EB comes along you can give them their answer, you could start by reading this: http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/music/ :)

I think you need to get over what other people may or may not think, I personally couldn't give a fuck, educate yourself about Birmingham and next time some little fuckwit like EB comes along you can give them their answer, you could start by reading this: http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/music/ :)
He doesn't need to. He can just read the thread in the citytalk section where the Manc forumers put your offering to shame. :)

hey Im from Brum and know all about its music. Im just writing this stuff because I think progress in Brum is relatively pedestrian (esp for towers never mind skyscrapers) because of a lack of mojo rather than any one particular reason. I'm trying to work out why there is no mojo, and this is all down to public perception. Of course the world would be a much better place if everyone thought like me but it aint gonna happen ;)

having said all that, getting skyscrapers in brum doesnt necessarily need a complete culture change or change in public perception. If we were to get one truly stunning and world-class tower acutally built in brum (and not at AC cos there's too much history there, this needs to be a 200m+ entirely new proposal), the floodgates could open. I wont hold my breath though....

He doesn't need to. He can just read the thread in the citytalk section where the Manc forumers put your offering to shame. :)

http://www.puffins-brixham.velnet.co.uk/nick/loser.bmp

I see the news that AC will be the tallest building in brum as a very positive thing.

So what it isn't going to be 175m odd tall, we all realised a long time ago that that wasn't going to happen, so i don't understand why some people are getting so upset over it. At least we are getting a tower of reasondable height. I remeber there being doubt we would get a tower over 100m at some point.

well this is true..but please note......all we know is that its goign to be tallest that 137m tall.......ok, uim not trying to be the enternal optermist....but im very drunk after a newcastle haloween party....but anything 137m tal is a wicked bonus!!!!

well this is true..but please note......all we know is that its goign to be tallest that 137m tall.......ok, uim not trying to be the enternal optermist....but im very drunk after a newcastle haloween party....but anything 137m tal is a wicked bonus!!!!
Indeed, I think any UK city would be happy with a tower of 137m+.

So you agree Woody that BST is actually 137m ;)

Good news, a 150m tower would be the max more then likely, but still that is a monster of a building wherever it is. :)

Ghostdog cheer up :cheers:

Now a question what do you think the site will look like in the renderings.
I say a sleek glass tower, that curves, with a atrium and many office space around in vairous buildings a leasiure complex, and a quite tall hotel.

no lol, i was very drunk i take it back...its 134m

114 metres more like..... :evil:

114 metres more like..... :evil:

Boring you big tit ;)

Well, for my twopen'eth, BST & AC are a good thing. We may not get a 245m tower but as long as the towers get taller and taller I do not mind :)

And I wish people would quit the "Manchester will have built x amount of 100+m towers by the time Brum has got it's next one up" style argument because it can lead to people having egg on their face.

The only time that ANYONE can say a tower (or any other building project for that matter) will be built is when:

- the developer owns the land/lease
- the money is in the bank to pay for it
- planning permission has been granted
- the contractor is on board
- all legalities have been sorted

Saying "ooh, we've got a 150m tower going up in city y" based on the fact that outline PP has been given and a few renders have been produced does not a tower make. And this is even without design variation!

Oh and it is also interesting to note that there are only 2 contractors bidding for the big New Islington development in Manchester - another one has pulled out. This is because they don't believe they can make any money on it and is symptomatic of the lull in the residential market across the UK but specifically in Manchester. Before anyone gets on my case about that statement, Manchester has been building apartments for years (and leading the way for provincial cities) and there comes a point when a city simply has enough apartments..

Before anyone gets on my case about that statement, Manchester has been building apartments for years (and leading the way for provincial cities) and there comes a point when a city simply has enough apartments..
Not if other areas of the city are growing too, such as education and business, which is what is happening in Manchester ;)

Oh and it is also interesting to note that there are only 2 contractors bidding for the big New Islington development in Manchester - another one has pulled out. This is because they don't believe they can make any money on it and is symptomatic of the lull in the residential market across the UK but specifically in Manchester.

The contractors won't be dependant upon the flats selling to be paid. No, the reason noone wants that contract is because it's an impracticale, unworkable WILL ALSOP design. More trouble than it's worth and they won't touch it with a shitty stick.

Not if other areas of the city are growing too, such as education and business, which is what is happening in Manchester ;)

Manchester won't continue growing forever though Accura - and what I meant is that apartment-building will stop expanding as a proportion of the resi market - of course as long as a city grows then housing will increase, but you will start to see houses rather than flats on the up and so on and so forth. It does depend a lot on the number of single people, and onc they all have a flat each then it kind of plateaus.

The contractors won't be dependant upon the flats selling to be paid. No, the reason noone wants that contract is because it's an impracticale, unworkable WILL ALSOP design. More trouble than it's worth and they won't touch it with a shitty stick.

I know that Jerv - what I was alluding to was the fact that it is a food chain - the developer relies on selling the flats, and the developer pays the contractor, so the developer has an idea as to how much he intends the contractor to build it for. I suspect that the latest contractor to pull out (i forget who - I think Costain) realises that it isn't going to happen for that price (especially with the Alsop factor). This indicates that the only contractor who may do it would be willing to take a hit and make a loss in order to curry favour with the developer/council/whoever, and if I remember rightly it is Laing O'Rourke and Taylor Woodrow who are left in the running - and the don't do business like that. I have been involved with residential developments and lots of apartment blocks have been built at a loss.

I think the developer may be regretting choosing Alsop, but he does have the chance to design-down the development and therefore make it feasible. Also I think the market has wised-up to gimmicks and they want a good quality apartment block, and not one with useless fefatures at the expense of practical items. A classic one is aluminium feature fins to make the building look nice - but when the wind blows at a certain speed in a certain direction they resonate and wake everyone up :lol:

Oh and it is also interesting to note that there are only 2 contractors bidding for the big New Islington development in Manchester - another one has pulled out. This is because they don't believe they can make any money on it and is symptomatic of the lull in the residential market across the UK but specifically in Manchester. Before anyone gets on my case about that statement, Manchester has been building apartments for years (and leading the way for provincial cities) and there comes a point when a city simply has enough apartments..
Complete tosh. Where have you got this rubbish about a housing slowdown in Manchester from? We've got the fastest growing population in the UK outside London and the boom is showing no sign of letting up. In fact, if the city continues to grow at it's current rate then we'll actually have a bigger shortage of apartments than we did before!

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/homesearch/latest/s/177/177559_its_still_booming_great_in_the_city.html

Complete tosh. Where have you got this rubbish about a housing slowdown in Manchester from? We've got the fastest growing population in the UK outside London and the boom is showing no sign of letting up. In fact, if the city continues to grow at it's current rate then we'll actually have a bigger shortage of apartments than we did before!

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/homesearch/latest/s/177/177559_its_still_booming_great_in_the_city.html

Once again EB you find something on the internet to back up your opinion rather than basing your opinion on a balance or facts. You have just quoted an article for the property section of MEN haven't you? They WOULD say that the housing boom isn't slowing wouldn't they? The bosses at MG Rover were saying "everything's ok" right up until 10 mins before it went into administration (not that I am suggesting the housing market is anything like Rover). So much for an impartial viewpoint EB.

Fastest growing population in terms of what? Percentage or total numbers? How many empty dwellings do you have in Manchester? Have you offset one against the other?

And you also say "if the city continues to grow.." but who knows what will happen? And how do you know that they want to live in apartments (bearing in mind central government relocation is likely to attract a lot of couples with families)? And how do you know that they will live in Manchester rather than commute?

There is a housing slowdown in the UK - fact. There is a housing slowdown in Birmingham - fact. There is a housing slowdown in Manchester - fact (and the apartments market has slowed moreso than houses because (if you had properly read what I said before you went off on one) Manchester has had a glut of apartment building for 10, 15 even 20 years - it has to stop somewhere. At some point all the people who want to live in the city centre do, and those who want to live in the suburbs do, so you get less of a mobile population and the housing only increases as the population increases.

What I said was pretty impartial and not a criticism levelled at Manchester but more a statment of fact. So please get off your high horse of "Manchester is better than everywhere else" and enter a discussion sensibly or not at all.

Once again EB you find something on the internet to back up your opinion rather than basing your opinion on a balance or facts. You have just quoted an article for the property section of MEN haven't you? They WOULD say that the housing boom isn't slowing wouldn't they? The bosses at MG Rover were saying "everything's ok" right up until 10 mins before it went into administration (not that I am suggesting the housing market is anything like Rover). So much for an impartial viewpoint EB.
MG Rover's management will always say everything is OK as to say otherwise would damage their shares. What deluded reason do you have for believing that the MEN have any reason whatsoever to do the same about the housing market?

Fastest growing population in terms of what? Percentage or total numbers? How many empty dwellings do you have in Manchester? Have you offset one against the other?
Fastest growing population in terms of absolute population growth. No, this isn't offset against empty houses because more than three quarters of our stock of empty houses are not fit for human habitation and are to be demolished.

And you also say "if the city continues to grow.." but who knows what will happen? And how do you know that they want to live in apartments (bearing in mind central government relocation is likely to attract a lot of couples with families)? And how do you know that they will live in Manchester rather than commute?
Bio, we were talking about this in relation to the current projects in Manchester. All developments in our list should be done by 2015. If you are foolish enough to think Manchester will have stopped growing by then all I can say is more fool you. The Government have projected population growth for ALL major UK cities up until 2026 back in 2001. Manchester, during the period since, has outstripped those projections four fold! Who is moving into Manchester? Young professionals who want city centre accomodation. The population of the city is moving more towards young singles by the day.

There is a housing slowdown in the UK - fact. There is a housing slowdown in Birmingham - fact. There is a housing slowdown in Manchester - fact (and the apartments market has slowed moreso than houses because (if you had properly read what I said before you went off on one) Manchester has had a glut of apartment building for 10, 15 even 20 years - it has to stop somewhere. At some point all the people who want to live in the city centre do, and those who want to live in the suburbs do, so you get less of a mobile population and the housing only increases as the population increases.
Complete rubbish! Maybe if you try researching a little harder you'll see that the housing market in Manchester has actually grown. House prices have stagnated, yes, but that is because the number of homes being produced has kept up with population growth. As for your claim of less liquidity in the population, what makes you think this will ever be the case? As the younger people grow old they will move out to the suburbs. As they then become even older they may move back into the city. The movement will continue. What will keep the market going? Population growth. We are one of the fastest growing large cities in the EU.

What I said was pretty impartial and not a criticism levelled at Manchester but more a statment of fact. So please get off your high horse of "Manchester is better than everywhere else" and enter a discussion sensibly or not at all.
Bio, if anything it's you who isn't being sensible. It's pretty clear that Manchester's market is not slowing down. Why? Because more homes are being created each year than in the previous year. Next year should see somewhere in the region of a 25% increase in the number of homes coming onto the market!

to late BIO, he's in full flow now!

MG Rover's management will always say everything is OK as to say otherwise would damage their shares. What deluded reason do you have for believing that the MEN have any reason whatsoever to do the same about the housing market?

Because that internet link looks like the housing section of the MEN that's why. And guess who writes the property sections of newspapers? Estate agents and developers, so take anything written with a pinch of salt because we all know how they mislead people. If they said everything wasn't ok they would be out of a job as people would stop selling. You backed up your argument with the opnion of an estate agent

Fastest growing population in terms of absolute population growth. No, this isn't offset against empty houses because more than three quarters of our stock of empty houses are not fit for human habitation and are to be demolished.

So you have a large number of pople moving into Manchester - excellent - it will go to increasing the dynamism of an already exciting city. As you say 3/4 of the empty houses need to be demolished. Ergo that same number (lets say 7500 out of 10 000 houses) will need to be replaced so this isn't an INCREASE in housing stock - it is a replacement. If I replace 4 out of 6 chairs around a table I still have 6 chairs. As an aside - there is an interesting debate as to whether it is more economical to refurb rather than replace these houses and questions are being asked. It is a very similar situation here in Brum.

Bio, we were talking about this in relation to the current projects in Manchester. All developments in our list should be done by 2015. If you are foolish enough to think Manchester will have stopped growing by then all I can say is more fool you. The Government have projected population growth for ALL major UK cities up until 2026 back in 2001. Manchester, during the period since, has outstripped those projections four fold! Who is moving into Manchester? Young professionals who want city centre accomodation. The population of the city is moving more towards young singles by the day.

Who said anything about a) me being foolish (which I obviously am because I spend time on here trying to filter fact from fiction) or b) Manchester stopping growing? By your own volition we can see goverment figures are wrong - they got Manchester's growth spectacularly wrong (if your stats haven't been massaged). General population dynamics moves towards young singles but once they have finished playing 'catch-up' then the growth rate of apartments particularly will reflect the population growth and not the higher rates that we have seen across the UK. It's like mobile phones - once the rush to get one was over the number being sold slowed.

Complete rubbish! Maybe if you try researching a little harder you'll see that the housing market in Manchester has actually grown. House prices have stagnated, yes, but that is because the number of homes being produced has kept up with population growth. As for your claim of less liquidity in the population, what makes you think this will ever be the case? As the younger people grow old they will move out to the suburbs. As they then become even older they may move back into the city. The movement will continue. What will keep the market going? Population growth. We are one of the fastest growing large cities in the EU.

I don't have time to research so I base my knowledge on others'. You have simplified the housing market in this statement and it is wrong. Housing markets can stagnate for various reasons - not just supply & demand but consumer confidence, demographics, new developments etc etc. And you have simplified the population - you suggest that young only live in the city - a great deal will live in suburbia too. If the simple model you suggest existed, the city living would still only increase with population growth due to older people moving out would be replaced with new youg people - they don't build a new apartment for everyone!

Bio, if anything it's you who isn't being sensible. It's pretty clear that Manchester's market is not slowing down. Why? Because more homes are being created each year than in the previous year. Next year should see somewhere in the region of a 25% increase in the number of homes coming onto the market!

Again you wrap youself up in either proclaiming Manchester's superiority over everyone else or defending it to the point of denial. Manchester's market is slowing down. I didn't say stopping or declining but I did say slowing down - like a car slowing down, it still goes forwards just not at the same rate. You are not being sensible - you are denying the truth.

Sorry Woody - I just can't let him try to discredit something I say or spread falsities :)

There is a housing slowdown in the UK - fact. There is a housing slowdown in Birmingham - fact. There is a housing slowdown in Manchester - fact
Actualllllllllyyyyyyyy....... nearly all of the North West is bucking the trend compared to the rest of the UK :)

Because that internet link looks like the housing section of the MEN that's why. And guess who writes the property sections of newspapers? Estate agents and developers, so take anything written with a pinch of salt because we all know how they mislead people. If they said everything wasn't ok they would be out of a job as people would stop selling. You backed up your argument with the opnion of an estate agent
No, the Homes section of the MEN is written by an in-house section of the Guardian Media Group, one of the UK's most trusted sources for information. I'd rather trust them than some Brummie who comes on a forum and says "no, it can't be because I say so". Jealousy? Methinks so.

So you have a large number of pople moving into Manchester - excellent - it will go to increasing the dynamism of an already exciting city. As you say 3/4 of the empty houses need to be demolished. Ergo that same number (lets say 7500 out of 10 000 houses) will need to be replaced so this isn't an INCREASE in housing stock - it is a replacement. If I replace 4 out of 6 chairs around a table I still have 6 chairs. As an aside - there is an interesting debate as to whether it is more economical to refurb rather than replace these houses and questions are being asked. It is a very similar situation here in Brum.
There is, however, a difference. In the past housing was built as low density sprawl. Now, however, the Government are forcing developers to go down a high density route. That is taller, bigger buildings surrounded by open squares and parkland, rather than house after house after house. Much more scraper-friendly.

Who said anything about a) me being foolish (which I obviously am because I spend time on here trying to filter fact from fiction) or b) Manchester stopping growing? By your own volition we can see goverment figures are wrong - they got Manchester's growth spectacularly wrong (if your stats haven't been massaged). General population dynamics moves towards young singles but once they have finished playing 'catch-up' then the growth rate of apartments particularly will reflect the population growth and not the higher rates that we have seen across the UK. It's like mobile phones - once the rush to get one was over the number being sold slowed.
But what makes you think this "rush" can't be sustained? The demographic of the people moving here is varied. Europeans, Brummies, Cockneys... we have net population gains from everywhere apart from Spain.

I don't have time to research so I base my knowledge on others'. You have simplified the housing market in this statement and it is wrong. Housing markets can stagnate for various reasons - not just supply & demand but consumer confidence, demographics, new developments etc etc. And you have simplified the population - you suggest that young only live in the city - a great deal will live in suburbia too. If the simple model you suggest existed, the city living would still only increase with population growth due to older people moving out would be replaced with new youg people - they don't build a new apartment for everyone!
Duh. That's precisely what I said. I said this would sustain the dynamism of the population. High population turnover creates openings in the market even if the population isn't growing as the marketplace is bigger for people to let into and rents can be higher thanks to the rapid turnover, meaning people can afford more housing stock. What will sustain market growth, though, as I said and you conveniently ignored, is our population growth, which is outstripping most other cities.

Again you wrap youself up in either proclaiming Manchester's superiority over everyone else or defending it to the point of denial. Manchester's market is slowing down. I didn't say stopping or declining but I did say slowing down - like a car slowing down, it still goes forwards just not at the same rate. You are not being sensible - you are denying the truth.
No, Manchester's market is increasing year on year. More houses will be sold next year than this year. What is slowing down is the rate of growth. Your wording was incorrect. It is not me denying the truth, it is you not understanding the difference between these two situations.

do you know what Earrly Bird, you really are an ass hole sometimes, I come back from work and see loads of posts on Arena Central and I click on the thread with trepidation only to discover a couple of sensible posts from Biosonic and Woody and then a right load of shit about Manchester again... nothing against the place but if in 5 years time the population of the city starts to decrease we will all know why, shut up about it, you base all your facts on Manchester centric web sites which is why many people here just pass you by, leave this thread for Arena Central news only please.

do you know what Earrly Bird, you really are an ass hole sometimes, I come back from work and see loads of posts on Arena Central and I click on the thread with trepidation only to discover a couple of sensible posts from Biosonic and Woody and then a right load of shit about Manchester again... nothing against the place but if in 5 years time the population of the city starts to decrease we will all know why, shut up about it, you base all your facts on Manchester centric web sites which is why many people here just pass you by, leave this thread for Arena Central news only please.

You're right EK, sorry for getting into a debate with someone as short-sighted and deluded as EB. I will gladly carry this on EB on another thread (when I have time) because you are completely wrong on so many things (in fact I think every single thing you said on the last post is based on the twisting of fact to back up your opinion) and I enjoy picking your little pretend world apart. And hold fire on the insults - you don't know me, or what I do so you don't have the right to make judgments.

I will gladly carry this on EB on another thread (when I have time) because you are completely wrong on so many things (in fact I think every single thing you said on the last post is based on the twisting of fact to back up your opinion) and I enjoy picking your little pretend world apart. And hold fire on the insults - you don't know me, or what I do so you don't have the right to make judgments.

Don't even bother to respond to the twat!

No, Manchester's market is increasing year on year. More houses will be sold next year than this year. What is slowing down is the rate of growth. Your wording was incorrect. .

EB sometimes I can't really believe you're as dumb as you come across and assume you are taking the piss. Bisosonic's wordign described exaclty ad accuratley what you describe that's what "slowing down" means. Please note the UK is presnelty said to be goign through an "economic slow down". It hasn entered recesssion and it hasnt even recently had a single quarter of negative growth but its rate of increase has decreased and therefore is said to be "slowing down".

I'm happy go thorugh a word a week from the dictonary with you if your finding the English language a bit of a struggle.

Yeh, definitely. let us keep this thread for AC please.

EB sometimes I can't really believe you're as dumb as you come across and assume you are taking the piss. Bisosonic's wordign described exaclty ad accuratley what you describe that's what "slowing down" means. Please note the UK is presnelty said to be goign through an "economic slow down". It hasn entered recesssion and it hasnt even recently had a single quarter of negative growth but its rate of increase has decreased and therefore is said to be "slowing down".

I'm happy go thorugh a word a week from the dictonary with you if your finding the English language a bit of a struggle.
Yet another mistake. A "slow down" would imply that if something is growing at 5% a year and it "slows down" then the next years growth will instead be less than 5%. In the case of Manchester the percentage of growth has increased. Say in year one it grew by 4% and in year two by 5%, but in year 3 it is only 5.5%. It still grew more this year than last year, but the rate of increase of growth has shrunk. The rate of growth itself, however, has increased.

EB you are a shit head :sleepy: goodnight

and please don't come back tomorrow

The design should be put forward into media interests by now? Exciting times eh?

back to arena central anyone ?

good for me!

I remember the city leaders announcing a confrence on tall buildings few months back. Does anyone know when this is?

Ignore that, it's next June http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/news/tm_objectid=15683844%26method=full%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

Without having to trawl through 12 pages, can someone give me a brief summary of whats happening with AC.....i thought this had been cancelled long ago.

It had the original design, but the A.C sight occupied by Miller Homes is still planned to be built on. Still A.C the design renders of the new A.C is planned to be submitted this month or in the very near future.
Hopefully

In terms of height, we aren't going to get the original tower of 180m (i think), but EK, who has insider knowledge has been saying miller plan to build the tallest building in brum. So it should be taller than 134m.

well october's come and gone and we still aint got any renderings

True True ture. ermm maybe next years October they meant!!! :lol:

No - October 2015. You're all going to be OLD BASTARDS before Brum gets the go ahead for a tall 134m+ building. Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa.

I've already become an old bastard waiting for this one so I think (hope) we'll hear some news soon

How long did you guys wait for HCT? Was it like this one, delay after delay?

I think the plans for Arena Central were out far before they even started thinking about HCT..

yeah, HCT came well after Arena central was first unveiled... bout by a year or so

My memory's so shite these days that I can't actually remember a time where there wasn't some grand plan for a tower at Arena Central!

Will we ever see the new masterplan?

nope

Let's just hope we (us, planners, developers, architects) all have the same new year's resolution!

zzzzz.....zzzzz............. zzzzz.....zzzzz............. zzzzz.....zzzzz............. zzzzz.....zzzzz............. zzzzz.....zzzzz............. zzzzz.....zzzzz.............

God, Birmingham is becoming one hell of a boring muthafucka on the skyscraper front, isn't it? Two schemes currently in a state of prolonged consultation / suspended animation respectively ....is this all the progress they have to show for their efforts after all this time?

It's really seriously starting to piss me off. :evil:

Hey Martin you're way behind....I grew bored of this about 37 months ago!

Hey Martin you're way behind....I grew bored of this about 37 months ago!

There's still a little spark of hope in me though :)

Don't know whether this is old news, but there is a website; www.arena-central.co.uk

It says "coming soon" but I don't recall seeing it before :?

Yes, that site is quite new. 1999 I think.