Im pretty bored, Birminghams been pretty quiet today apart from the Barmy Army and a few Aussies rattling thier kangaroos. Arena Central masterplan is going to be released soon, so while we are waiting lets all try and predict what will be included in it.

The winner gets ... well nothing, but it will be interesting to see what people think will be built on this site and who comes closest to predicting the masterplan. Take into acocunt it has planning permission for a 187m (245m to spire) tower and the development cost is roughly £500m.

:cheers1:

The site

http://www.miller.co.uk/uploaded/project_ims/developments/ARENA_CENTRAL_AERIAL_April_2005.jpg

My prediction is ...

*1x Residential, Retail, Hotel tower = 132m (145m to spire)
*2x Office Blocks = 50-80m
*Glass facades with a sloping low range office blocks curling around the canal.
*Small casino to be included aswell as cinema complex located around a water feature courtyard.
*Tallest Tower to be 42 storeys and the office towers to be 12 and 18 storeys respectively.
*There will be a top floor public restaurant

:cheers1:

My prediction?

£500M well spent probably on diddly squat!

Geddit?

;)

My prediction?

£500M well spent probably on diddly squat!

Geddit?

;)

Oi play the game, you have an imaginative mind, I look forward to hearing your realistic thoughts on the future masterplan :)

I predict the tower will be around 120m, with no spire.

Oi play the game, you have an imaginative mind, I look forward to hearing your realistic thoughts on the future masterplan :)



They ARE my realistic thoughts. :)

I predict the tower will be around 120m, with no spire.

Thats the safe option Will ;)

I predict it will be put on hold for a further 5 years and they'll spend 50 million lira drawing up the 27th ACT masterplan

I predict someone will steal the original HOK Associates design and erect something five times as tall in Dubai. :yes:

I'm sure you've got a rendering in the pipeline :)

No - Dubai can frigging well go and whistle for it.

http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/Cairo/Gallery/sphinx.jpg

I did a render.

I predict a 3 bed semi with the extra option of a loft conversion.

An American style shopping centre with a few apartments. Tower to be decreased in height to 24-storeys.

Blue curved glass clad tower with a sloped roof.
160m, 45 floors.

Oh wait a minute it's in brum.
Beige square brick/tile clad lowrise.
16m 4.5 floors

Umm Jonny - Just beacuse Arena Central has stalled, doesnt mean Birmingham is Low-rise, infact its probbaly the most centralised high-rise cluster in the UK. :cheers1:

http://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/images/skyline/kingston0505.jpg

Approved (Black), U/C (Blue) Proposed (Pink) Rumoured highrise developments (Black Outline)

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6564/skylinefromkingstoneverything1.jpg

My prediction is ...

*Glass facades with a sloping low range office blocks curling around the canal.


:cheers1:

As far as i'm aware, the AC site doesn't include anything by the canal. Which is a shame because i would love to see that god awful hotel on Gas Street Basin crumble.

Umm Jonny - Just beacuse Arena Central has stalled, doesnt mean Birmingham is Low-rise, infact its probbaly the most centralised high-rise cluster in the UK. :cheers1:


I wouldn't really call it a highrise city though. The City of Westminster has more highrises than Brum. :cheers:

I wouldn't really call it a highrise city though. The City of Westminster has more highrises than Brum. :cheers:

I would, everything looks bigger then it really is, although statistics prove its more of a mid-rise city. When you talk about Westminster? is that the actual city of London? :dunno: :cheers:

i think we will get a tower thats defintely taller than HCT, about 140M surronded by loads of little mid rises

i still live in hope of a 245M tower to the spire

By bet is on a 140m to roof/43 storey residential tower, a 70m/15 storey office development and 3 to 4 8-10 storey mixed use lowrise blocks. And a public square adjoining broad street.

By bet is on a 140m to roof/43 storey residential tower, a 70m/15 storey office development and 3 to 4 8-10 storey mixed use lowrise blocks. And a public square adjoining broad street.

Ohhh - good choice :yes:

I'm going with an undergound bunker...with a spire

Ohhh - good choice :yes:

A tad optimistic though, possibly? Not to worry - I'm sure whatever we end up with will be taller than Alpha tower at least. Defo looking forward to the masterplan coming through, if we get a tower of any kind approaching 140-150 metres we're laughing. Well, at least I am.

I reckon at 35 storey tower where the car park stands now, with a 10 storey block to the left of the Alpha/Hyatt line, and a 3 or 4 storey frontage on to Broad Street along the demise line of the Register Office.

Tower - hotel and some office + residential above.

Block - office with ground & first floor bar/restaurant/cafe

Frontage - bar with office above

Existing (bank, masonic hall & Central TV entrance) - restaurant

Im going with a 190m tower.

Im going with a 190m tower.

Always the over optimist :hahaha: :cheers1:

Umm ... ;)

Being optimistic never killed anyone. I'm thinking a 145 metre tall tower with spires...

Main Tower: 180m (162m to top floor)

Is this a guestimate? Or is it true cus you seem to have a precise measurement with 162.

Its a guess, dont worry ;)

180m, but it will be bult on a floating platform.

Periodically it will navigate via the canal system to a new location, thus causing 2000-page long "Arena Central" threads in every city forum on SSC, as people the length and breadth of the country agonise over when THEY are finally going to see AC.

awwwww bless, the arena central sweep stake has found its way back to the top of the forum again...

well, this twer WILL be built, but when and how high is anyones guess....im saying 160m

-160m !!! :tongue2:

I think the tower will be cylindrical in shape, narrower at the base than at the top and it will flatten towards the top into a rectangular shaped floorplates but ot will taper into 2 spires 1 at either end and it will be its 189m 242.5m to spire. and it will be in earthy colours - green and blue. there will be a public square with a traditional fountain in it and arranged around it will be midrises in different styles so that the whole area doesn't look exactly the same.

wow...martin g has some competition on the optermist front lol

wow...martin g has some competition on the optermist front lol
Well i live in hope

wow...martin g has some competition on the optermist front lol


Just wait until you see my new AC render that I'm working on (taking my time over it cos I know it's going to be a stunna!) :yes: :)

well all look forward to it.......

Cant wait :)

Well its gotta be taller then 175m when you think about it. I mean the Pinnacle is progressing nicely by the seems of things, and im sure even if its by a single centimeter im sure Miller would want it to be just that bit taller, considering both AC tower and that have a similar completion time.

well all look forward to it.......

All our grammar on occasions can be pretty poor but come on Woody, thats just plain awful :hahaha: ;)

Cant wait :)

Well its gotta be taller then 175m when you think about it. I mean the Pinnacle is progressing nicely by the seems of things, and im sure even if its by a single centimeter im sure Miller would want it to be just that bit taller, considering both AC tower and that have a similar completion time.

I hope a competition for the tallest building starts between the Pinnacle and AC. That would be awesome. Imagine them adding a little bit more to their spires or something every year or so so that we finally get something nudging the 200 metre mark on both sides!

All our grammar on occasions can be pretty poor but come on Woody, thats just plain awful :hahaha: ;)

"that's" actually :)

Sorry, couldn't help it.

Lol, good job I admitted before hand that my grammar can be pretty shoddy aswell.

Lol, good job I admitted before hand that my grammar can be pretty shoddy aswell.

I had to google it myself, just to be sure :runaway:

145mtrs plus a 20 mtr spire = 165m

I've said somewhere 170m. I'd like to register that as a roof height i'm making no predictions on the existance of a spire or not so if it is 169.5m to the roof with a 30.5m spire ontop i'm claiming victory.

Basically any roof height +/- 2m from 170m and i'll be trying to claim i've won.

Please let it be 172.1m ;)

well all look forward to it......All our grammar on occasions can be pretty poor but come on Woody, thats just plain awful :hahaha: ;)
"that's" actually :)

Sorry, couldn't help it.


WOOO HOOOOO!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!
I really really LOVE it when this sort of thing happens!!!! :hahaha: :hilarious

:banana: :cucumber: :pepper: :carrot: :cheer:

I had to google it myself, just to be sure :runaway:


Charlie P would most definitely hunt you down and kill you, if he was still around to read THAT, sunshine.... :nono: :no:

Very funny Martin ;)

I thought this thread had a poll with it, or was that another one? There are that many threads on the topic of AC I can't keep up.

It's a major development. It deserves all the attention it can get :)

:banana::banana::banana:"Breaking News" :banana::banana::banana:

Arena Central wont be this

http://www.siue.edu/RELIGION/CATHOLIC/Dirty%20Laundry%20Project%20Shanty.jpg

However, I quite like the use of colours in this design

P.S This forum is dead :(

it does have to be said that today has been a very quiet do!...lets just hope its the calm before the storm

This has dragged on for years, sure it will be nice to see what miller finally propose in detail !!! but no one should get excited til the bulldozers move in on the old studio's, that will signal the start of something !!!

I predict a 3 bed semi with the extra option of a loft conversion.

What about the other 'semi', aren't they usually built in pairs????????

It will be 172 metres to the top floor, & 187 metres to the top of the fantastic centrepiece on the roof.

Thanks FLD - you've won then ;)

Thanks FLD - you've won then ;)

A full 16 Metres (.... or 52 feet which sounds better) higher than Beetham Manchester .....FANTASTIC!!!!

Eat your heart out CAW123!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A full 16 Metres (.... or 52 feet which sounds better) higher than Beetham Manchester .....FANTASTIC!!!!

Eat your heart out CAW123!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why? I want Brum to do well as much as anyone else!

(And if you want to play that game, Eastgate is 188m)

Why? I want Brum to do well as much as anyone else!

(And if you want to play that game, Eastgate is 188m)

OK, Pinocchio.

One day! One day! I will be head of architecture or whatever for Birmingham and I'll bringing in them skyscrapers quicker than you can say "Ooh, looks like someones bringing in new skyscrapers!" YOU WATCH!

Why? I want Brum to do well as much as anyone else!

(And if you want to play that game, Eastgate is 188m)

Go on any plague your skyline with more glass boxes! It's nice to see that Birmingham has some variety with its new proposals... I'm not trying to start an argument. Just wanted let off some steam :)

now now people, calm down calm down *said in a scouse accent because those words just have to be said like that)

do we not think that it may be just a little coincidence that the manchester tower at eastgate is approved at 1m higher than our very own arena central?!?!?!?

i smell competition!

Well the wait for information better be worth it. Hopefully they were planning to do the original design which reached... erm... was it 245 metres?

yeah...that aint going to be happening!

Eastgate can go up at 188m its a wonderful tower but - The Pinnacle at 175m and AC at 187m both topple Beetham, now thats something to look forward to in its own right.

Plus, Gothic might have a little suprise in store for us. Thats if his so called ... "What I know and you dont" brag was true ;)

I still fancy a couple more 120-140m towers though, Holloway Circus part 2 would be fantastic.

well if rumours are to be believed then there is a 4th and final towe being drawn up for holloway circus!

Heard anything Woodhousen? If another tower was built opposite HCT what height does everyone feel would settle nicely with the three towers currently there?

now now people, calm down calm down *said in a scouse accent because those words just have to be said like that)

do we not think that it may be just a little coincidence that the manchester tower at eastgate is approved at 1m higher than our very own arena central?!?!?!?

i smell competition!

There are rumours, even though planning is approved, that Eastgate may never be built.

lol wow flad, you managed to comment on 2 subjects in one sentense...

have u been hearing rumours too about the 4 holloway tower???

this is true guys about eastgate....look how long arena central has had planning!

btw nacho, i think that a tower at hollowaycircus should either be taller and slender(er) than HCT or shorter and climbing gradually to about 90m..... if it were the same height as HCT, the cluster will loko a little boring!

But are Manchester learning from AC's mistakes?

Heard anything Woodhousen? If another tower was built opposite HCT what height does everyone feel would settle nicely with the three towers currently there?

Some random not long ago posted 2 pieces of interesting news of two substantial towers one at the wholesale markets and the other at Holloway Circus, not sure how much you can take from that but its seems quite viable.

I would love to see a 140mish tower at the final remaining corner :)

I heard some news about the markets too. I can't remember where though... Hmm.

But are Manchester learning from AC's mistakes?

maybe, but whos to say there wont be any more different mistakes!

Well, the only thing I want is for Arena Central tower to be built and to dominate the city's skyline.

I reckon we could 250 posts on this thread before the day is out ;)

AC will be a Brum icon like the Rotunda and Selfridges are today. a 187m toothpast tube in my bathroom would be immense.

Well, lets get posting :) Just keep it on subject though. We dont want an argument starting about something irrelevant.

I'd be very happy to see a tower of very similar height to our Beetham on the opposite corner but while i thought the photoshop somebody did a while ago of an exact replica on the opposite corner looked fab i don't want a carbon copy tower.. rather something that is an improvement on HCT.. hopefully one with a better back.

I'd be very happy to see a tower of very similar height to our Beetham on the opposite corner but while i thought the photoshop somebody did a while ago of an exact replica on the opposite corner looked fab i don't want a carbon copy tower.. rather something that is an improvement on HCT.. hopefully one with a better back.

It's got to be a curved or cylindrical building to reflect HCT, the Debenhams building and also the curvey lines of Smallbrook Queensway. A square boring slab, the type of which seem commonplace in Manchester, would look completely out of place on this site. Birmingham is more curvey ...... a more sexy place!

190m

Now, what if we had one mega structure reaching all the way around to the bull-ring, A nice 180m pinnacle lowering to a respectable 45m ;)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1082/pinnacle1115ke.png

Now what about that with a 1000ft mega office block at Paradise Circus :runaway: Smileyface would have one hell of a view :)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7414/pinnacle11111zd.png

Smiley's house value would triple.

Blimey :cucumber:

I would pay an awful lot to have that view... but truth is, they havent been built yet and I dont think the house is for sale :(:(

It is a great view and it looks better at night, especially during the winter when everything's lit up around 5pm. Here's a shot with an half built HCT but just imagine the same evening shot with a 180M AC Tower and some of the other proposals all lit up.

I'll post it as a link coz it looks like I forgot to resize this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Robdann/Birmingham%202/Skyline.jpg

I'm confident that AC's height will be around 180-190 Metres and if Goth's hinting at something bigger in the pipeline too, wow!

Imagine the excitment if we get AC renders and then news of an even taller tower. I know I would'nt just wet myself ;)

Anyhoo, here's Smileys image, I cut a bit off the rubbish out aswell mate hope you dont mind, and to think thats not even half of the skyline :)


http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/987/11mq.png

HCT is still being built there :(

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/987/11mq.png
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9479/110xk.png

Holy Maccarone!! I'd try to get some more current night shots but they only really work in the winter when it gets dark at 5pm.

Give it 6 months then... As for AC 30 days! :)

I reckon 172m 187 to spire.

OK, Pinocchio.

:weirdo:

Has this become the official Arena Central 2 thread? The other one was getting a bit big.

awww bless, what a lovely skyline....when bt tower used to be lit up propperly!

Has this become the official Arena Central 2 thread? The other one was getting a bit big.

your joking, the arena central thread is the largest development thread on this forum...that construction hasnt even started on...... once news comes back about AC, we're all going back there!!!!

How come they're not chopped at 500 posts anymore?

When news comes out about AC, I say we start afresh. The waiting would have been over. Thats a period behind us then!

we do. but only on general thread...project threads can go on for as long as they want


infact time for a new birmingham thread!

Just as long as it looks nothing like Beetham in Manchester, I'd be happy. Oh my, just seen the photos, that is one pig ugly building that's going to age very quick.


Oh, 180m here.

Beetham Manchester is just a glass box really. The Eastgate tower which is gunna be taller than Deansgate and maybe AC :( is just another glassbox. I think its ridiculous... You're right, they will age quickly.

how can a box age quickly.....box buildings have and will always have been around..... they may not look spectacular but i dont think they age quickly......

how can a box age quickly.....box buildings have and will always have been around..... they may not look spectacular but i dont think they age quickly......
It would be nice just being plain glass, but it's not. It's the type of thing we had in the 70's and we hate them now.

HCT glass will need re-doing in a few decades IMHO. The transfers will fade and peel off. At least HCT has a nice rear, which Beetham Manc does not.

HCT's rear is the worse thing about the building IMHO and from what i've read about it since it went up alot here seem to agree that it's front is it's best aspect (although not great).

I think the rear is great and the front is great too.

It would be nice just being plain glass, but it's not. It's the type of thing we had in the 70's and we hate them now.

HCT glass will need re-doing in a few decades IMHO. The transfers will fade and peel off. At least HCT has a nice rear, which Beetham Manc does not.
Sillyboy,they are not transfers but opaque glass that will stand the test of time,the cladding on HCT and the Manchester Hilton tower is high quality.Come to think of it those tiger patterns on HCT are probably tranfers but there is nothing like that on the Manchester tower just opaqe glass which forms the stripes.

Beetham Manchester is just a glass box really. The Eastgate tower which is gunna be taller than Deansgate and maybe AC is just another glassbox. I think its ridiculous... You're right, they will age quickly.


Have any idea you how stupid that sounded? :sly:

Explain yourself...
They'll age quickly huh? 'It's a glass box' so what! how does this support your theory at all? Well i can tell you it doesn't mate, it dont full stop. I suggest you stop kissing nivarna boys ass.

Also 'Eastgate' ridiculous?....... Right ok, mate. :lol:

I think the rear is great and the front is great too.

Well of course you do.

Have any idea you how stupid that sounded?

Possibly the funniest comment I have ever read on this forum! :rofl:

Nice one 'Manc Guy' :applause:

Leave it Manc Guy lets not get all hoo-hah over two towers that aren't even built yet.

Imagine the view looking down from the top off AC - I hope theres some sort of viewing gallery, especially considering its location.

At least HCT has a nice rear, which Beetham Manc does not.
I disagree with that. HCT's rear is what lets it down IMO. From the front its totally lickable :)

I also actually prefer the back of HCT to its front :runaway:

like marmite, you either love it or hate it!

What i like most about it is how much HCT sticks out when you drive along the M6 it looks great!

What i like most about it is how much HCT sticks out when you drive along the M6 it looks great!

Imagine how much Arena Central will stick out!!

I also actually prefer the back of HCT to its front :runaway:

Me too, although that really isn't saying a great deal.

The front is horrible, those naff coloured panels. And the Mcr one, inf anything, looks even worse, although it does have the advantage of being taller and more imposing.

I really strongly think both these buildings are naff and offer nothing other than height. They have the architectural value of a Barratts house.

Eastgate looks much better imho, and hopefully so will AC.

Yep, I think most will agree all Beetham towers are a long way off what we expected. From the side and distance HCT looks wonderful, but close up the mix match panels etc just look plain terrible. I think it got such credit due to it being the first true major tower to go up in years anywhere outside of London, if this was to be built in a bursting metropolis like Dubai, it wouldnt even get mentioned.

Yep, I think most will agree all Beetham towers are a long way off what we expected. From the side and distance HCT looks wonderful, but close up the mix match panels etc just look plain terrible. I think it got such credit due to it being the first true major tower to go up in years anywhere outside of London, if this was to be built in a bursting metropolis like Dubai, it wouldnt even get mentioned.

I wonder if either HCT or Manc Beetham would have got PP in London.

They just seem to be a missed opportunity. You're right though, most of the attention they get is as the first provincial towers. Nothing to do with their architectural merits.

Possibly the funniest comment I have ever read on this forum! :rofl:

Nice one 'Manc Guy' :applause:

thank you. thank you. england, beer, sunny day, you get the idea. yada, yada. :cucumber:

I also actually prefer the back of HCT to its front :runaway:

Me three! The back of HCT is a daring design, the front is not. The back is metalic and its styling is something to study, whereas the front is bland - it looks plasticy and has greeny-blue primary school swishes and swirls. :sleepy:

EDIT: Still impressive though. ;)

my estimate is;

160 metres

Me three! The back of HCT is a daring design, the front is not. The back is metalic and its styling is something to study, whereas the front is bland - it looks plasticy and has greeny-blue primary school swishes and swirls. :sleepy:

EDIT: Still impressive though. ;)
I'm a sucker for the rear. Looks a bit bare now the silver cladding is coming down. first 5-6 floors had gone mid last week.

Just had a quick look at the Arena Central page on the Miller Group's website and it says that enabling works will begin in 2006 with construction beginning in 2007. I hope they keep them dates.

I'm spooked at the sound of the shape - tube of toothpaste which has been squeezed at a certain point creating two bulges!

Now what about that with a 1000ft mega office block at Paradise Circus :runaway: Smileyface would have one hell of a view :)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7414/pinnacle11111zd.png

I thought we already had one anyway - didn't we, eh, Smiley? :tongue2:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/MartianG/megaalpha.jpg

I think we ought to redirect this thread. Instead of guessing how many floors she'll be, guess when the date of revelation will be. FLD has already had his go with July 6th. I'm gonna go for July 31st, it just sounds right?

August 15th.

Seeing as it's Arena Central, I think it's best we stick the year on as well.....July 31st 2006

Some time in early 2007.

April 1st 2027?

April 1st 2027?

Wow....I'll hear the news on my way home from bingo

The year is 2261 and Arena Central will be renamed...Babylon 5!

Well, B5 was redesigned to reuse old materials, and wasn't built up to full standards to save money and had a leader with a God complex - perfect for Birmingham

August 5th 2006...

August 5th 2006...

July 10th 2006

^^That soon?! I say when it next snows in the Sahara Desert in the month of July.

U mean "The day after tomrrow" then?

Sorry could'nt resist!

U mean "The day after tomrrow" then?

Sorry could'nt resist!

So then I'm going for July 11th 2006

August 5th 2006...

What an amazing birthday present that would be!!

February 31st

The day FLD is shot. "If I tell you, I'd have to shoot you."

What an amazing birthday present that would be!!

My birthday isn't in August :?





;)

Er.... this one perchance??

http://tinypic.com/169feqa.jpg

http://tinypic.com/169fgn7.jpg

http://tinypic.com/16ban81.jpg

;)

Whats this all about then?? Is a one Martin G just being clever or is my slight heart palpatation for a reason?

ah... I see. Very clever indeed. Very professionally done.

Does anyone else find it worrying that a building designed by a random member of the public (no offense) with no architectural training (I'm guessing?) can produce a building which looks quite a lot like something we might be expecting. You'd excpect that if a trained architect was designing it it would be 100 times better, but the truth is it probably wont be. But I'd be very pleased if the architectural profession surprised me.

ah... I see. Very clever indeed. Very professionally done.

Does anyone else find it worrying that a building designed by a random member of the public (no offense) with no architectural training (I'm guessing?) can produce a building which looks quite a lot like something we might be expecting. You'd excpect that if a trained architect was designing it it would be 100 times better, but the truth is it probably wont be. But I'd be very pleased if the architectural profession surprised me.

By the way, well done Martin, youve put a lot of time into that render and it looks very impressive!

Just thought I'd bounce this one up, alas I'm too lazy to go through it to see who won!

where is FLD?

You don't need to keep reminding us Stephen... I did all I can but even I don't have a crystal ball that could have forecast the pile of shit we eventually ended up with.

i can imagine ending something about as tall as HCT....and itll only be that tall because they wont want to let down the huge hype up its had...theyre too pussy to build anything taller.

I know I didn't win I thought it would be curvy and tapered I don't think I could have been more wrong.

I couldn't find any Arena Central-related threads which are not closed, but should the Alpha Tower be upgraded as part of this project or should it be left untouched?

That's because the Arena Central thread is now the V Building thread :).

Hi, thought id add this view for you of the v-building from spaghetti junction, including the two new snowhill buildings soon to be up!


Existing skyline
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/a_walshy/sketchupnow.jpg

Couple of years with current approved buildings up, (snow hill, v-building)
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/a_walshy/sketchupsnowhillbothvbuildingbroad.jpg

oh, and the broad street tower! lol

Great mock up, looking forward to that view in a few years :banana:

The road surface looks a bit too smooth to be the M6.......:lol:

Nice mock-up though Walsh.

I'd be interested to see it with VTP, BST, Regal and the fabled New St towers too!

yeh, great mock up walsh. whats the big black splog in the middle of the skyline?

hahah ill have a look now what that black blob is, but ill add my version where ive added a basic vtp tower, regal, and newstreet towers. Broad street tower was also on the last one i added.

Hi there, im adding some more pics now where ive put in the buildings mentioned previously, vtp, new street and regal,

Im adding more pics however onto the skyline thread so if you like these that i add on then check the rest im adding to the skyline thread.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/a_walshy/vtp.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/a_walshy/m61.jpg

Aww, I'm tempted to start using Sketchup again. Ah what the hell, I might as well!

hahha its good to get a rough idea of things, i think its ok for this kind of use anyway..