That map is no good to me - I'm colourblind. I can't make out the red and the green ones.

Salif, by HSL are you talking about a line like the new Eurostar line? Interesting....

That map is no good to me - I'm colourblind. I can't make out the red and the green ones.

I am sorry.

Salif, by HSL are you talking about a line like the new Eurostar line? Interesting....

Yes, an extension to the CTRL with that big blue and green block being an HSL station for Birmingham and obviously there is the link into the city centre.

Has been suggested if another HSL was built in the UK it would access the heart of Birmingham via the Nuneaton line. Which makes sense given it seems to have less constraints and if the line is following the M6 it would be less demanding curvature wise then connecting at Birmingham International.

I am sorry.

Oh its OK, don't take that badly. I'll go and do some work to it so I can understand it better.

Yes, an extension to the CTRL with that big blue and green block being an HSL station for Birmingham and obviously there is the link into the city centre.

Has been suggested if another HSL was built in the UK it would access the heart of Birmingham via the Nuneaton line. Which makes sense given it seems to have less constraints and if the line is following the M6 it would be less demanding curvature wise then connecting at Birmingham International.

Not a bad idea.

I'd just hope that if they did extend the CTRL up here, they could build it a tad faster than they did with the first section!!

So when will the demolition (reclad) start?

So when will the demolition (reclad) start?

Well, it was supposed to be finished by 2012, but many don't think so. They still need to secure funding.

late 2008/2009 I'd say, and it'll probably be done in phases as the station will remain open. Can you imagine the Logistics of planning something like that? No wonder it's so expensive!

Daz, did you have a look at the New New Street Plans?

Yes BlahBlah,
I have had a look at the Planning applictions on the BCC site. I have to admit that it does look impressive. But then I ask myself, why the redevelopment anyway. What is the problems with BNS now at what will this development change or improve. It does seem to be the ols station with a new skin and a sunroof. It would be nice to see some artist impressions of the interior and how the shopping centre will link to it, and even platform veiws. At the moment I am not convinced that this is a worth while project and as I said in a earlier thread, I will probably see it torn down in my lifetime!!

It looks like a cheap cinema, and the interior is the standard railtrack/network rail design. It's nothing to go shouting about.

There's plenty of interior images of the concourse, shops and platforms on the web.. somewhere.

The design makes no sense to me, how can they promise it will flood the concourse with light when they are keeping Ladywood house, and the multistorey carpark on top!

The design makes no sense to me, how can they promise it will flood the concourse with light when they are keeping Ladywood house, and the multistorey carpark on top!


That's marketing speak for "There will be much more light on the concourse than there is at the moment!" - which there will, the centre part of Pallasades is being ripped out and replaced with a lightwell (the dotted X) on the concourse diagram.

I agree. Its not a stunning design, its not perfect, but it is (I think) a practical first step towards a better railway service for Brum, and the best we're going to get given the budgetary/space restraints we have on site.

There is no point spending huge ammounts of money on totally redeveloping the station & buying pallasades out, because it's capacity is ultimately limited by the width of the approach tunnels, which cannot be widened without digging new tunnels even deeper (and darker!) under BNS, or demolishing the BullRing!

Gateway is a short term solution IMHO, and there must be other things in the pipeline for the longer term. Be it more use of Snow Hill/Moor St, or a new station somewhere else as has already been discussed.

I really do believe that we've only seen one piece of the jigsaw!

http://www.imagesofbirmingham.co.uk/php-cgi/gallery2/d/2151-2/050804_046.jpg

How can any redevelopment of New Street Station be successful without causing massive disruption to the entire main line rail network?

The short answer is: it can't and it will - at least those parts of the main line rail network (and the regional and local ones) which involve New Street. That isn't by any means the 'entire' main line network - I can't see much of the network in S and E England being affected, except for the (anyway somewhat minimalist and totally inadequate) NE-SW and E-W 'cross country' (so dismissively called) services.

The destruction of the original station roof and construction of the present development on top can't have been done without similarly massive disruption. While in more recent times the years of disruption and chaos at London Liverpool Street and the train services therefrom, just for construction of the massive Broadgate development on top and around, has passed into legend and literature as well as being indelibly burned into the memories of those of us who had the misfortune to have to experience it.

So just brace yourselves.

When I said "entire main line network", I meant the part of the network that criss-crosses the Midlands - even I know a Kings Cross to Edinburgh GNER service is unlikely to be affected, for example!

http://i6.tinypic.com/2m82uz9.jpg


:) :lol: :lol: :)

http://i6.tinypic.com/2m82uz9.jpg


:) :lol: :lol: :)

That's better!! We could probably get a 1 megaton Nuclear bomb for less than £550 million!!:jk:

That's better!! We could probably get a 1 megaton Nuclear bomb for less than £550 million!!:jk:

Yes but is it cost effective?

That's better!! We could probably get a 1 megaton Nuclear bomb for less than £550 million!!:jk:

And the BT Tower would withstand the impact :banana:.

:lol:

http://i6.tinypic.com/2m82uz9.jpg


:) :lol: :lol: :)





^^

WOW!!! :eek2:

I see that Will Alsop has pulled out his hair in frustration and decided that he'd design BNS in the shape of a huge meteorite crater - in-fucking-spired!!! :lol: :rofl: :rofl:

From Eg today


Warner faces CPO threat after New Street stalemate
Lisa Pilkington 05/03/2007 11:00


Warner Estate is being threatened with a compulsory purchase order for its 290,000 sq ft Pallasades shopping centre in Birmingham.

The 1960s mall is built above the New Street rail interchange, where a £550m redevelopment is planned by Birmingham Gateway Partnership, a consortium led by Network Rail and the city council.

Talks about a £100m revamp of Pallasades to tie in with the council’s plans for the station have been ongoing since Warner bought the shopping centre from the Mall Fund in 2005.

The council had hoped to reach an agreement with Warner before the end of last year but has become increasingly frustrated by the lack of progress.

At a meeting earlier this week, councillors agreed that failure to agree a voluntary agreement with Warner would leave it with no option but to issue a CPO.

The meeting also approved the issue of initial demolition notices to residents of the council-owned 23-storey Stephenson Tower to the south of the station.

The council will spend £3.8m securing vacant possession of the block. Demolition of the site – where two 30-storey towers and a public piazza will be built – will kickstart the Birmingham Gateway project.

Mike Taylor, Birmingham council’s city-centre co-manager of planning and regeneration, said: "We still haven’t done a deal with Warner and may have to CPO Pallasades, as well as Stephenson Tower. We don’t want to do it but we will if we have to."

Michael Stevens, property director at Warner, said all sides would need to be in agreement as to how to progress their plans to trigger the redevelopment of the mall.

"We need an acceptable design for Network Rail and for us. Network Rail still needs to get the central government funding in place for the whole scheme. We’re in their hands," said Stevens.

Plans to redevelop Pallasades as part of the station overhaul have been ongoing since 1998.

DO IT! PLEASE!

There's a letter in today's Post from someone point out the lack of signs to the exit at the top of the esclators from New St - apparently Warners won't allow NR to put up anything as the Pallasades are 'a shopping centre not a rail station'.

How odd that Warner's constant fucking about might actually lead to something good.

Then again, it's New St, I'm probably getting my hopes up for nothing

Let's hope things get moving at last this year.

I have a good feeling about this.

Maybe we can swap the Pallasades for Snowhill?

Warners sound like a bunch of incompetent morons!

If they bought that site thinking it was a shopping centre with a railway station attached then more fool them!

And to have the gaul to dare to try and hold up Gateway to the detriment of the rest of Birmingham to protect that shit heap of a shopping centre, which seems to be only occupied by stores which are better represented elsewhere in town, and 'lowbrow' retailers like woolies and poundland.

Fuckwits deserve to have the thing CPO'd!

Warners sound like a bunch of incompetent morons!



Perhaps they are all characters from Warner Bros cartoons ..... Yosemite Sam, Daffy Duck, Bugs Bunny, etc, etc!

... no correction, warners are money grabbing sods

warner bought the shopping centre as soon as proposlas for the redevelopment of new street was 1st announced and say the potential for profit... so they bought it and are now keeping hold ofr as much as they can get!

Tbh I don't blame them. It is a pity that the council's hands are tied that much that they couldn't quickly nip in and buy it.

The previous owners said "we don't do redevelopment" so looked to sell, but BCC, AWM (who should've IMO) and NR didn't step in quick enough.

Thanks for the info Stel :cheers:

totaly agree, i have a feeling that if any of the above did buy the centre, we would have had a better design

althoguh i hav noticed that reports dont say a CPO of just the shops and interia, they say for the ENTIRE thing..... ;)

totaly agree, i have a feeling that if any of the above did buy the centre, we would have had a better design

althoguh i hav noticed that reports dont say a CPO of just the shops and interia, they say for the ENTIRE thing..... ;)

Sorry Woody, but if thats the case, then even more fool them!

If they bought it from its previous owners KNOWING that redevelopment was going to happen, then I have absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever. Anyone that stupid does not deserve to be in business! I really hope they do CPO the whole thing. Pallasades really adds nothing in terms of quality destination retail to town. I had resigned myself to the fact that we were stuck with it, but this is great news. There will be plenty of new retail space in Martineau Galleries, and the new station concourse does have more retail units than present. 16 if I count right, compared to 9 at present.

IMO Warner bought it in the hopes that either the council would give them a large bushel of cash to do it up, or they could get the council to buy the thing off them at a mark up - the most likely given the way they seem to have behaved.

I know someone on here (sorry can't be bothered to look back and check who and don't want to misquote) said it can't be CPOed as it was only recently sold. I have no idea about CPO legislation - is this the case? Would seem odd as if anything I'd think people who've been there ages should have more legal rights.

Warner must be worried about the new entrances - a realistic footfall count would probably slash the rent they charge for their already downmarket units.

Lets face it. They have been very foolish if they've included the New Street footfall in their own footfall figures.

1st question I would ask as a potential tennant in Pallasades would be what % of footfall through pallasades goes straight down to BNS without setting foot in a shop. The only thing rail commuters ever want to buy while waiting/running for trains are; Newspapers/Mags/Fags/Asprin/Fast Food.

All of which are catered for on the BNS concourse.

well if im right, a CPO is something no one wants... BCC cuz it will be yet another cost and warner as they loose their/any profits!

well Network Rail were thinking about it.
Maybe its one of those things where the long term benefits outweigh the costs and if it can be mortgaged as a cost between different partners.

Warners need to sit down and if they only think with money work out that a better designed station would lead to better sales as people wouldnt feel like running to see daylight after arriving and would need shops.

its in everyones best interests for once to work together

CPO the Pallasades, rebuild, and then give the new retail units back to them. I spoke to a business lecturer at university, and the structure of Warner is a quick profit, then forget about it scheme. They don't care 10 years down the road. It every bit of evil capitalism all in one.

Well, all in all I think it looks very promising.

You can CPO immedaitely after a sale (AFAIK) because otherwise you would get objectors buying land to stop a scheme they didn't like.

It sounds as though Warner are out to make a quick buck, and if they are happy to sell at a 5-10% profit then I think NR should buy them out. Let that be a lesson to all that NR, BCC & AWM should strike while the iron is hot.

It is well known in shopping centre circles that although the Pallasades has one of the highest footfalls in the country, they have a low spend per person, exactly because much of their footfall is generated by rail passengers

CPO The Pallasades.

Get rid of the Pallasades.

Build us a cathedral of a station.

No compromises.

CPO The Pallasades.

Get rid of the Pallasades.

Build us a cathedral of a station.

No compromises.

Yes!

But I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high!

Oh for fucks' sakes!! More dithering about while Rome burns.....! Why can't they just come up with a fait accompli and flatten the Pallasofbollocks for good? I'm sick of seeing that place hindering the progress of this New Street regeneration - it's almost like a form of blackmail - fucking ludicrous that it's allowed to get to such a stage. Everyone is all too aware that the longer it goes on, the more astronomical the costs are going to be.

Ugh sounds like another case of the Battersea Power Station faffing around, a couple of people making large sums of money out of bits of paper and half-hearted aggreements... then they pack their bags leaving nothing for the hundreds of thousands who would actually benefit directly from an epic development. Battersea Power Station should have been put under a compulsory purchase order decades ago I hope Birmingham council dont make the same mistake here.

Hehe, a new cathedral to complement the other ;) , the new Church of Shopping (bullring).

flatten the whole shite hole and build something majestic

CPO The Pallasades.

Get rid of the Pallasades.

Build us a cathedral of a station.

No compromises.

Exactly what I was going to say.

I'd still be very suprised if the thing does get completely flattened if Pallasades gets CPO'd, but we'll all have to wait and see.

I think it'll be more likely that the design will remain pretty much unchanged, and the shopping centre part will be sold on again afterwards. Or, the Pallasades owners will wake up, smell the coffee, and start co-operating.

Teletext last night stated that NS was on course!

From the Beeb, today.

Is this what you were referring to FLD?

New Street revamp plan 'on track'

Plans show work would last about four and a half years
A project to modernise Birmingham's New Street Station at a cost of £500m is on course, the chairman of the committee overseeing the scheme said.
The scheme, which is being supported by Network Rail and other groups, is awaiting government approval.

Mike Whitby, chairman of the committee and city council leader, said UK growth will be hindered if such national-scale transport hubs remain dilapidated.

The plans to transform the station were announced in February 2006.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6427251.stm)

Four and a half Years!? Chuffin' Nora!

From the Beeb, today.

Is this what you were referring to FLD?



BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6427251.stm)

Four and a half Years!? Chuffin' Nora!

Yes, thanks Mr blah, that's what I read. It still could be completed before the 2012 London Olympics though ...... that's if they start in the next 12 months??!!

^^ 5 years, 4 months, 19 days, 4 hours & 4 minutes 'till the Olympic opening ceremony.

Could do it if they start it no later than Januray next year, and have no delays. *tries not to smurk*

Well, this is the difficulty of keeping the station operational whist rebuilding it.

Otherwise I would estimate 3 years at least.

Well, this is the difficulty of keeping the station operational whist rebuilding it.

Otherwise I would estimate 3 years at least.

Very true. Well, at least delayed passengers will be able to amuse themselves by helping to redecorate!

On a serious note, can you imagine planning the redevelopment and keeping it open at the same time? This is truly the definition of "Logistical Nightmare!"

Ed Doolan broadcast today. Mr Whitby speaks about New Street Gateway 1:02min
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/wm.shtml

^^ All I get to hear is something about someone from Birmingham starting up a new comedy club. Pretty apt, don't you think, considering it's Mike Whitby.

:lol:

I'd emailed Len Gregory a while back asking if there was even the slightest possiblity of eliminating the Pallasades from Gateway - response:

The option for the removal of the Pallasades has been investigated as an
option for the Gateway project. While an impediment to reconstruction, it
does bring in a regular income to Network Rail and helps to fund the
complete scheme. We are seeking to cooperate with Warners plans in the
overall development but an option to purchase will be retained as a
fallback situation for the promoting consortium.

If I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact
me.


For once I now want the council to have to take up their fallback position! The worrying thing is this does seem to suggest that whatever happens they'd want to keep the Pallasades element for the cash rather than get rid of it altogether

Is this £500m plan the plan that doesn't really address the capacity problems that New Street has, but would just make it look a bit prettier? :-S

Is this £500m plan the plan that doesn't really address the capacity problems that New Street has, but would just make it look a bit prettier? :-S

You got it! Ridiculous isn't it. It takes those who keep a close eye on this thing to actually realise that too. The general public who just want to see the station look pretty don't realise how useless the development will be.

You got it! Ridiculous isn't it. It takes those who keep a close eye on this thing to actually realise that too. The general public who just want to see the station look pretty don't realise how useless the development will be.

Wonderful...! Are there any plans afoot for after this? I'm sure I read something being mooted whereby the improved New Street would become a regional station, and there would be a larger railway station built out to the east of the city centre, which would become the main railway station for the city.

Oh well - luckily for me, Snow Hill's my local when I go into Birmingham on the train. :banana:

^^

There is no point spending vast sums of money in expanding capacity at New Street, because the eastern approach tunnel is only wide enough to take 4 tracks, and expanding it would require demolishing the Bull Ring.

In that respect, I think we're lucky to be getting the redevelopment that we are, but I seem to be in the minority in this view! :lol:

There was a plan for a 'Grand Central' station in Eastside, but the land required for that has gone to developers for City Park Gate.

Someone here has uncovered a rumour that the Council and Network rail are looking at creating some new rail links and spurs to take some local services, possibly cross city & walsall out of New Street, and into Moor St. and Snow Hill instead.

This would require the 2 redundant platforms at Moor St. be opened - which is being looked at anyway - and possible expansion at Snow Hill once the metro line and stop has been moved. Probably also mean that Moor St & Snow Hill being electrified.

^^

There is no point spending vast sums of money in expanding capacity at New Street, because the eastern approach tunnel is only wide enough to take 4 tracks, and expanding it would require demolishing the Bull Ring.

That's the main capacity issue I was thinking of! So £500m on a railway station that can't take many more trains - value for money? So the new station would be able to accomodate the number of passengeres currently wanting to use the trains there, but with the projected growth in rail transport won't we soon be back to square one, AND with no capacity for more trains? So, yeah, as you say, we're lucky to be getting this. But would it not be better spent elsewhere, like on a new railway station that is sufficient for the city's needs now AND for the city's future needs?

In that respect, I think we're lucky to be getting the redevelopment that we are, but I seem to be in the minority in this view! :lol:

There was a plan for a 'Grand Central' station in Eastside, but the land required for that has gone to developers for City Park Gate.

Someone here has uncovered a rumour that the Council and Network rail are looking at creating some new rail links and spurs to take some local services, possibly cross city & walsall out of New Street, and into Moor St. and Snow Hill instead.

This would require the 2 redundant platforms at Moor St. be opened - which is being looked at anyway - and possible expansion at Snow Hill once the metro line and stop has been moved. Probably also mean that Moor St & Snow Hill being electrified.

It'd be great if Snow Hill got expanded. The more I use that railway station the more I'm sure it wasn't designed for people (pillars seem to be in the wrong place, doors are the wrong size to accomodate the flow of passengers leaving the station, etc.), and an expansion might be able to redress some of this.

What I find terribly confusing is that the station redevelopment will only accommodate the number of passenger we are presently getting and may not be able to take another increase! The number of passengers passing through New Street has increased significantly in the last 7 years and BNS is running at over capacity!

What I find terribly confusing is that the station redevelopment will only accommodate the number of passenger we are presently getting and may not be able to take another increase! The number of passengers passing through New Street has increased significantly in the last 7 years and BNS is running at over capacity!

Gateway will make it 10% under capacity. (If passenger levels don't increase any further) Clearly, once it's done, other things will have to be done, such as diverting services to Moor St. & Snow Hill. NR said Brum would need a new station in 40 years too.

Probably some very delicate politics behind it!

Probably also mean that Moor St & Snow Hill being electrified.

I doubt that, due to the amount of low footbridges on the line.

Yep, current station is designed to take 60,000 passengers a day, we now get 120,000, twice the design specification. The new design will "double what we have today", hey that 120k, what we have coming through the station each day. This leaves no room for expansion, when it is built in 2012/2013, the station will be 10-15% or more over capacity.

Network Rail and the government have had reports written, but they are highly inaccurate and don't add up.

No point to electrification either. The only trains that make use of it are the old Centro local services, all others just run on diesel (even though they can run on electricity as well). I also heard (can't remember source) that higer carbon emissions are produced from electric trains.

No point to electrification either. The only trains that make use of it are the old Centro local services, all others just run on diesel (even though they can run on electricity as well). I also heard (can't remember source) that higer carbon emissions are produced from electric trains.

Cross city was one of the services rumoured to be shifting into Moor St & Snow Hill. It's an electric service, so it would make sense that the stations should be electrified. I suppose it would depend on whether it would be cheaper to electrify the new spurs & relevant sections of existing track, or replace the cross city trains with diesel ones - rendering the existig electric network on the cross city useless.

With regards to the figures NR & the government have come up with, there are two things that I can see happening once Gateway is complete.

1.) they will realise that they've dropped a bollock, and have to do something else - Government and Network Rail corporate ego will be serverely bruised if this is the case!

2.) they will already have plans in place (the rumours we've heard here) to cope with future growth. I bet this is the story we get told, even if it isn't the case!

Either way, Gateway is the first link in the chain. Other things will happen. They have to.

There are rumours, which I have said a while back, that there are plans to redevelop some stations in Birmingham. Gravelly Hill was one of the stations I heard.

I also heard (can't remember source) that higer carbon emissions are produced from electric trains.

Probably fabricated spin to be used as an excuse not to spend money wiring up the rest of our mainlines and suburban lines. Amazing how every other country in the EU is wrong and we're right.

Probably fabricated spin to be used as an excuse not to spend money wiring up the rest of our mainlines and suburban lines. Amazing how every other country in the EU is wrong and we're right.

:lol: That's very true! With more and more wind turbines, probably new nuclear stations on the way too. Even Drax is cleaninng it's act up! How can anyone claim that a diesel train is cleaner than an electric one.

Electric trains are also safer in an accident - there's no fuel to explode if it crashes - as we saw in Northumberland when that Brummie built Pendolino came off the rails at 95mph with only 1 fatality. Obviously that's no comfort to her relatives, but it is quite remarkable when you think about it.

Fuel does not explode, only if it mixed with air when it is vaporised. Try burning petrol, it burns slowly.

:lol: That's very true! With more and more wind turbines, probably new nuclear stations on the way too. Even Drax is cleaninng it's act up! How can anyone claim that a diesel train is cleaner than an electric one.

Electric trains are also safer in an accident - there's no fuel to explode if it crashes - as we saw in Northumberland when that Brummie built Pendolino came off the rails at 95mph with only 1 fatality. Obviously that's no comfort to her relatives, but it is quite remarkable when you think about it.

That was in Cumbria, other side of the pennines.

That was in Cumbria, other side of the pennines.

Oh yeah. Sorry, my geography is shite!

Oh yeah. Sorry, my geography is shite!

That's ok, despite it being one of my favourite subjects I failed it at school:ohno:

^^
Someone here has uncovered a rumour that the Council and Network rail are looking at creating some new rail links and spurs to take some local services, possibly cross city & walsall out of New Street, and into Moor St. and Snow Hill instead.

This would require the 2 redundant platforms at Moor St. be opened - which is being looked at anyway - and possible expansion at Snow Hill once the metro line and stop has been moved. Probably also mean that Moor St & Snow Hill being electrified.

This was me and is more than rumour with council and Network Rail having plans. Question is how soon the funding but more achievable than some of the wild ideas being mooted.

On the Cumbria train crash, speaking to someone who works as train driver apparently its worse than thought for that specific stretch of track as it is short distance from where the 4 men died a couple years back when the vehicle they were moving bits on the line ploughed into them in the dark. Network rail have some serious questions to answer on that stretch of the line. Virgin Trains well designed trains have done awesome job of preventing carnage though and I hope that encourages govt speeding up of replacing rolling stock.

Fuel does not explode, only if it mixed with air when it is vaporised. Try burning petrol, it burns slowly.

Petrol is pretty inflammable :?

Diesel isn't though.

No point to electrification either. The only trains that make use of it are the old Centro local services, all others just run on diesel (even though they can run on electricity as well). I also heard (can't remember source) that higer carbon emissions are produced from electric trains.

It would be interesting to see what they compare like.

General electricity is I think 75% waste (lost in transmission) to deliver 25% power. This is due to stepping up and down, so train power would be different.

However - as a country we are moving toward CHP for developments as it is greener, where gas/fuel is piped in and electricity (and heat) is generated by small local power plants. This is pretty much what Diesel trains do, so I can imagine it being competitive.

I think the conversion rate for electricity that you quote Bio is for residential electricity that in stepped down to 240volts. I reckon it must be better for a high voltage system like that for trains and since the network is it's own transmission system i expect the ratio is better than for domestic electricity because of that too.

That said i have heard that electric trains/cars are far more efficient even after the loss of all that power during transmission because petrol/diesel engines are so inefficient (i can't remember the exact figure but it is something like 15-20%) where as an electric motor is 95-100% efficient.

But how efficient are the power stations?

Don't know, depends on the source. Nuclear, Gas, Coal, Wind it depends on which you are talking about.

I'm just reiterating what i have read that taking an electric train in the most fuel efficient (environmentally friendly) form of motorised travel.

Also i know it doesn't have any relevance but the sound they make is great, plus that hum on the line when one is approaching the station mmm.

I doubt that, due to the amount of low footbridges on the line.
I am surprised because the former GWR was built to a more generous loading gauge than other railways except the Great Central. I would have thought electrification of the lines through Snow Hill and Moor street would pose fewer problems than the New Street routes did.
No point to electrification either. The only trains that make use of it are the old Centro local services, all others just run on diesel (even though they can run on electricity as well). I also heard (can't remember source) that higer carbon emissions are produced from electric trains.
I am totally confused here. Why are the Redditch-Lichfield, Coventry-Wolves, and Birmingham-Walsall services "old" compared with Leamington/Stratford-Stourbridge services? And how can diesel hydraulic multiple units "run on electricity as well"? As for carbon emissions, others have already pointed out that electricity generation can be carbon-free if it is nuclear. Apart from carbon emissions, diesels are appalling polluters of the air we breathe and the noise we hear. Just go to Paddington when several HSTs are idling there, pouring clouds of filth into the enclosed train shed and creating a deafening roar, to see what I mean.
General electricity is I think 75% waste (lost in transmission) to deliver 25% power. This is due to stepping up and down, so train power would be different.

However - as a country we are moving toward CHP for developments as it is greener, where gas/fuel is piped in and electricity (and heat) is generated by small local power plants. This is pretty much what Diesel trains do, so I can imagine it being competitive.
The railways use 25kV AC so transmission losses are minimised. Diesel electric trains certainly generate their own electricity, but most of the Centro stock is diesel hydraulic I think. Electric multiple units are lighter, can accelerate much more quickly than diesels, and can use regenerative braking to reduce wear and tear on the mechanical brakes while at the same time feeding current back into the supply system. They are surely the trains of choice for a busy suburban network. As Salif has mentioned, virtually every other European country has gone electric, so why the hesitation in the U.K.? Partly it must be because the infrastructure in Britain is not owned by the train operators. Who takes the initiative? What incentive is there for Network Rail to take the long term view by investing in electrification projects if the operators are running diesels? And what operator would consider investing in electric trains if they have to rely on Network Rail to electrify the routes they serve?

The reality of the situation is this: since the late 80s and the days of BR the UK Railway network's attitude to electrification has changed. Whilst electric traction is ultimately cheaper to run than diesel, the cost of the overheads: the catenary (masts and wiring), miles of lineside cabling, electricity feeder substations and the bridge clearance changes in some instances all add up to making it more expensive per mile to instigate. This is why the onset of the 1990s and the gradual privatisation of BR to first Railtrack and then Network Rail has slowly unwound its electrification schemes to less than a trickle these days.

I think the last major regional suburban area electrification scheme was in West Yorkshire - Leeds to Skipton via Bradford and Leeds to Ilkley - and that was in 1993-5. There hasn't been any further extensions on any part of the regional network ever since (regional does not include London of course) - not even Glasgow's extensive electric suburban network has been extended by much since then.

This all points to the preference of the current rail operators to stick with diesel traction because this has probably been dictated to them by Railtrack / Network Rail avidly discouraging or rejecting any plans for further expansion of the 25kV overhead network across the country on the grounds of cost and NOT environmental reasons. Secondly, their modus operandi is always to do everything as cheap as possible within reason, to keep costs down. Not for them the extravagances of shelling out millions for loads of overhead line equipment. This also explains why trains are deliberately made so short these days, despite passenger numbers going through the roof - to keep the overheads down by running two/three car trains of course. :no: This is why the UK is unique amongst European countries because they're effectively not providing us with a service per se, but an obligation. That's what is so scandalous about our rail system today. It really is the shame of the entire western developed world.

Crazy logic, I know, but sadly this is the prevailing trend. It also explains why former electric-powered services (Inter City) between cities like Manchester/Liverpool and Birmingham have now become diesel run (those appallingly inadequate and short Virgin Voyager Cross Country trains).

To sum up, the country's rail system is being held to ransom by an overpaid bunch of clueless cheapskates who don't really know the first thing about railway infrastructure, planning or development, nor show any concrete commitment to proper investment in order to safeguard the railways' future - mainly due to market forces and endless bureaucratical faffing about and backpedalling, not to mention penny-pinching.

The reality of the situation is this: since the late 80s and the days of BR the UK Railway network's attitude to electrification has changed. Whilst electric traction is ultimately cheaper to run than diesel, the cost of the overheads: the catenary (masts and wiring), miles of lineside cabling, electricity feeder substations and the bridge clearance changes in some instances all add up to making it more expensive per mile to instigate. This is why the onset of the 1990s and the gradual privatisation of BR to first Railtrack and then Network Rail has slowly unwound its electrification schemes to less than a trickle these days.

I think the last major regional suburban area electrification scheme was in West Yorkshire - Leeds to Skipton via Bradford and Leeds to Ilkley - and that was in 1993-5. There hasn't been any further extensions on any part of the regional network ever since (regional does not include London of course) - not even Glasgow's extensive electric suburban network has been extended by much since then.

This all points to the preference of the current rail operators to stick with diesel traction because this has probably been dictated to them by Railtrack / Network Rail avidly discouraging or rejecting any plans for further expansion of the 25kV overhead network across the country on the grounds of cost and NOT environmental reasons. Secondly, their modus operandi is always to do everything as cheap as possible within reason, to keep costs down. Not for them the extravagances of shelling out millions for loads of overhead line equipment. This also explains why trains are deliberately made so short these days, despite passenger numbers going through the roof - to keep the overheads down by running two/three car trains of course. :no: This is why the UK is unique amongst European countries because they're effectively not providing us with a service per se, but an obligation. That's what is so scandalous about our rail system today. It really is the shame of the entire western developed world.

Crazy logic, I know, but sadly this is the prevailing trend. It also explains why former electric-powered services (Inter City) between cities like Manchester/Liverpool and Birmingham have now become diesel run (those appallingly inadequate and short Virgin Voyager Cross Country trains).

To sum up, the country's rail system is being held to ransom by an overpaid bunch of clueless cheapskates who don't really know the first thing about railway infrastructure, planning or development, nor show any concrete commitment to proper investment in order to safeguard the railways' future - mainly due to market forces and endless bureaucratical faffing about and backpedalling, not to mention penny-pinching.
Hear, hear! I agree with everything you say. Good of you to take time to comment on New Street Station after your voluminous contributions to the Official V-Tower Thread. I have read them all, but am reserving judgment on that building.

It is such a pity that succesive governments have allowed your railways to get into such a mess I was very sorry to read in Martin G's article that electrification has all but stopped, Tony Blair is always giving continental europe lectures about the carbon effect on the planete. Prehaps he doesn't know but throughout all the countries of western europe almost all our railways have been electrified there are one or two lines in the Massif Central region of France not electrified but that is because they only have a maximum of 4 trains a day and are kept open solely as a Public Service.
June 10th this year will see the opening of the Paris Strasburg High Speed Line when the latest generation of TGV's will be running commrcially at 350 km per hour. SNCF hope to run a test train at 550 km per sometime soon over the track. Also last week SNCF announced they would be connecting Bordeaux and Toulouse by TGV. When all major cities will be connected. As
you probably know all the latest TGV's are double decker as are nearly all Paris RER trains, they are the Reseau Express Regional trains that serve the suburbs and then go below the Metro when they reach Paris. I really think it is so sad that Great Britain with the 4th worlds economy cannot get it head around its railway system. Also I would like to add regarding the plans for New Street. Are they planning a new station or a shopping centre, space is limited so every available bit should be put in the station. the only shops you need are like those you have on the lower floor, e.g Newspapers, a Sandwich shop etc. Birmingham has a shopping centre The Bullring which is actually connected to the station also the main shopping streets are minutes away whatever is the need to cramp the station with another I would have thought whoever is in charge of the planning would have realised that the last thing needed is another.

I have a new solution for our railways....

Bring this bloke back from the dead.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/gallery/2006/04/24/bettmancorbis_brunel3.jpg

I have a new solution for our railways....

Bring this bloke back from the dead.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/gallery/2006/04/24/bettmancorbis_brunel3.jpg

Here fucking here!!

Except he's GWR, New Street's ex LMS. ;)

Here fucking here!!

Except he's GWR, New Street's ex LMS. ;)

IKB did spend a fair amount of his time helping his mate Stevenson out though. Can you imagine what our country would be like if they were still around?

We'd have 500mph maglev trains
Concorde would be still in service, and be the size of the A380, and do Mach 5
V Tower would be 1750 metres.
Cars would run on the tears of squirrels.
The Channel Tunnel would be complemented by a beautifully elegant suspension bridge.
Queen Mary 2 would have been built in England - like it fuckin well should have been!

I have a new solution for our railways....

Bring this bloke back from the dead.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/gallery/2006/04/24/bettmancorbis_brunel3.jpg
I see another one's fallen for the I K Brunel propaganda machine, of which that carefully posed photoshot is a fine example - the many other shots taken during the same session which he wasn't happy with but which weren't published because he wasn't happy with them have survived.

Truth is the increasingly prevalent myth that Marc Brunel's son was THE great Victorian engineer has everything to do with the fact that he was a Southerner who did all his work in the South of England plus a bit in South Wales (where he was happy to adopt narrower railway gauge standards than in his English work). The Stephensons planned and built more of Britain's rail network, including the London and Birmingham Railway, contemporary with 'Brunel's' Great Western, and unlike IKB they worked all over the country.

And unlike the Stephensons I K Brunel was crap at mechanical (as opposed to civil) engineering and saddled the GWR with a heap of junk locomotivewise - almost the only decent engine the GWR got for starters was one designed and built by Robert Stephenson's works in Newcastle. On the other hand the Stephensons didn't do boats whereas Brunel did with mixed success.

And let's not forget other great engineers eclipsed by Brunel-worship, such as Joseph Locke.

BTW the GWR north of Birmingham never had the Brunel 7ft track gauge, it was always the Stephenson (and worldwide) standard 4ft 8.5 in.

In terms of efficiency, it is important to also look at acceleration speeds, which can be achieved a lot more fuel efficiently with electric than diesel and hence, shorten journey times for less emissions. Also with electric trains it is possible (as with Pendilino's) that when they brake, the power is "regenerated" and stored so that the actual use is less.

Quote from Virgin website:
Its regenerative braking system returns up to 1,500 kWh of electricity to the power lines on a journey between Glasgow and London through reverse thrust traction motors and the 53-strong train fleet returns some 17 percent of power used on the West Coast.

http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=944

I see another one's fallen for the I K Brunel propaganda machine, of which that carefully posed photoshot is a fine example - the many other shots taken during the same session which he wasn't happy with but which weren't published because he wasn't happy with them have survived.

Truth is the increasingly prevalent myth that Marc Brunel's son was THE great Victorian engineer has everything to do with the fact that he was a Southerner who did all his work in the South of England plus a bit in South Wales (where he was happy to adopt narrower railway gauge standards than in his English work). The Stephensons planned and built more of Britain's rail network, including the London and Birmingham Railway, contemporary with 'Brunel's' Great Western, and unlike IKB they worked all over the country.

And unlike the Stephensons I K Brunel was crap at mechanical (as opposed to civil) engineering and saddled the GWR with a heap of junk locomotivewise - almost the only decent engine the GWR got for starters was one designed and built by Robert Stephenson's works in Newcastle. On the other hand the Stephensons didn't do boats whereas Brunel did with mixed success.

And let's not forget other great engineers eclipsed by Brunel-worship, such as Joseph Locke.

BTW the GWR north of Birmingham never had the Brunel 7ft track gauge, it was always the Stephenson (and worldwide) standard 4ft 8.5 in.

Josph Locke? I used to play in Locke Park, Worsbrough, Barnsley as a kid. The land for the park was given to Barnsley by Joseph's wife Phoebe.

Brunel was a great engineer, he was also a great politician. Far better than any of his contemporaries were. Which is of course, why he is the most celebrated and most remembered of the Victorian engineers. His wide guage was only replaced by Stevenson's narrower guage because it was cheaper to do so.

But yes, you are right, Brunel was one of many fantastically talented engineers. Stephenson, Telford, Brindley, Watt, etc etc etc etc.

Josph Locke? I used to play in Locke Park, Worsbrough, Barnsley as a kid. The land for the park was given to Barnsley by Joseph's wife Phoebe.

Brunel was a great engineer, he was also a great politician. Far better than any of his contemporaries were. Which is of course, why he is the most celebrated and most remembered of the Victorian engineers. His wide guage was only replaced by Stevenson's narrower guage because it was cheaper to do so.

But yes, you are right, Brunel was one of many fantastically talented engineers. Stephenson, Telford, Brindley, Watt, etc etc etc etc.

Not to mention IKB's now monstrously unjustly forgotten dad, Marc Isambard Brunel. Have to say in assessing respective achievements we should take into account the relative advantages they started with - eg at one end of the scale Brunel and Stephenson juniors had their pretty little heads stuffed full of expensive education; through Telford who started out as a stonemason once he left his Scotch borders peasant home; to the likes of Brindley and Stephenson senior who both grew up poor and uneducated and remained still barely literate all their lives.

Not to mention IKB's now monstrously unjustly forgotten dad, Marc Isambard Brunel. Have to say in assessing respective achievements we should take into account the relative advantages they started with - eg at one end of the scale Brunel and Stephenson juniors had their pretty little heads stuffed full of expensive education; through Telford who started out as a stonemason once he left his Scotch borders peasant home; to the likes of Brindley and Stephenson senior who both grew up poor and uneducated and remained still barely literate all their lives.

Marc invented the forerunner to the TBM, and dug the first tunnel under the Thames didn't he?

I have a new solution for our railways....

Bring this bloke back from the dead.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/gallery/2006/04/24/bettmancorbis_brunel3.jpg

And to think that only a few hours of this being taken, he would collapse, having a stroke that would end his life a few days later, never to see the Great Eastern set sail on her maiden voyage :(.

Marc invented the forerunner to the TBM, and dug the first tunnel under the Thames didn't he?
Yup, first underwater tunnel in the world and still going strong best part of two centuries later as part of the East London Lne tube, albeit originally designed and built as a road tunnel. MIB was a compulsive and prolific inventor as well as a great engineer.

IKB did spend a fair amount of his time helping his mate Stevenson out though. Can you imagine what our country would be like if they were still around?

We'd have 500mph maglev trains
Concorde would be still in service, and be the size of the A380, and do Mach 5
V Tower would be 1750 metres.
Cars would run on the tears of squirrels.
The Channel Tunnel would be complemented by a beautifully elegant suspension bridge.
Queen Mary 2 would have been built in England - like it fuckin well should have been!

^^

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Which obviously begs the question: how on earth does one make squirrels cry?


er.....maybe you either hide, or trample on, their nuts.

:rofl: :rofl: :hilarious

Didn't the Great Eastern have to be cranked off the launch ramp using jacks made by the legendary Tangye's of Smethwick?

It is such a pity that succesive governments have allowed your railways to get into such a mess I was very sorry to read in Martin G's article that electrification has all but stopped, Tony Blair is always giving continental europe lectures about the carbon effect on the planete. Prehaps he doesn't know but throughout all the countries of western europe almost all our railways have been electrified there are one or two lines in the Massif Central region of France not electrified but that is because they only have a maximum of 4 trains a day and are kept open solely as a Public Service.
June 10th this year will see the opening of the Paris Strasburg High Speed Line when the latest generation of TGV's will be running commrcially at 350 km per hour. SNCF hope to run a test train at 550 km per sometime soon over the track. Also last week SNCF announced they would be connecting Bordeaux and Toulouse by TGV. When all major cities will be connected. As
you probably know all the latest TGV's are double decker as are nearly all Paris RER trains, they are the Reseau Express Regional trains that serve the suburbs and then go below the Metro when they reach Paris. I really think it is so sad that Great Britain with the 4th worlds economy cannot get it head around its railway system. Also I would like to add regarding the plans for New Street. Are they planning a new station or a shopping centre, space is limited so every available bit should be put in the station. the only shops you need are like those you have on the lower floor, e.g Newspapers, a Sandwich shop etc. Birmingham has a shopping centre The Bullring which is actually connected to the station also the main shopping streets are minutes away whatever is the need to cramp the station with another I would have thought whoever is in charge of the planning would have realised that the last thing needed is another.

Whenever you hear our PM talking about cutting down on emissions and investing in public transport then I can guarantee you he is bull shitting. He has no desire to invest in public transport, he just wants to raise the cost of motoring in the UK to make more money.

Our railways need huge investment and little political interference. Our railways need re-gauging to accepted European clearances, a high speed network, a mass-electrification programme, S-Bahn/RER networks in every major urban conurbation, LRT/Metro in every cityand so on.

But with this Government (and probably the next one) we have little or no chance. The Government recently canceled planned tram projects in many major UK cities because of costs over runs. Of course the cost of not building these tram networks is never mentioned. We get fobbed off with bus routes with bull shit names such as 'super routes'.

The only way things change is if the people of the UK actually force change through so next Governments realise they HAVE to serve the interests of the people. Alas it is not the electoral polls where the Government or Government to be learns this. It's through alternative actions - such as what would happen in France if your Government decided to shit all over the French people in the same manner.

Whenever you hear our PM talking about cutting down on emissions and investing in public transport then I can guarantee you he is bull shitting. He has no desire to invest in public transport, he just wants to raise the cost of motoring in the UK to make more money.


Whenever you hear our PM talking at all he's bullshitting.

Whenever you hear our PM talking at all he's bullshitting.

:applause:

:applause:

x2

Whenever you hear our PM talking about cutting down on emissions....

.... I feel like doing my bit for global warming by shooting the snivelling little twat in the head.

BTW. Good post Salif!

.... I feel like doing my bit for global warming by shooting the snivelling little twat in the head.

BTW. Good post Salif!

Thank you - people can only be pushed so far, Blair has the stupidity of being a twatty PM following on from previous twatty PM's and the level of anger continues to rise to boiling point.

This New Street issue to me is a perfect example of what is wrong in the UK. A very worthy candidate for mass levels of public investment where the solution to the problem is urgently needed. But we can't seem to even get past the talking stage FFS. It seems to be the people who can sanction this are just looking for excuses to not do so.

It won't be long before it is entirely scrapped at this rate (like Leeds Super Tram for example) for being too expensive. Of course no mention will be made of costly delays and how much economic and environmental damage will be caused by this.

Anyone see the new St Pancras in Saturday's B. Post? Looked fantastic at a snip of 800m quid. Took them 3 years and it's now going to be the main terminus for Eurostar. BNS is definitely next in line if fairness is adhered to.

No, there is Euston and Waterloo to sort out next and they already have 1/2 billion to 1 billion earmarked for each. Also couple other of mainline ones but cant remember.

Kings X is truly gorgeous as well as functional - except when there is a fire and they suspend Eurostar.

As long as Northerners (and in this I include Brummies) continue to lack the gumption and guts to get together and fight (as opposed to just mouthing off on webchatsites nobody takes any notice of) the 'London First and sod everywhere else' official and corporate mentality our sorry and ignominious history will keep repeating itself.

Anyway most of you lot are so dazzled by London, to judge from some of your comments here, you don't have the stomach for a real fight anyway.

As long as Northerners (and in this I include Brummies) continue to lack the gumption and guts to get together and fight (as opposed to just mouthing off on webchatsites nobody takes any notice of) the 'London First and sod everywhere else' official and corporate mentality our sorry and ignominious history will keep repeating itself.

Anyway most of you lot are so dazzled by London, to judge from some of your comments here, you don't have the stomach for a real fight anyway.

A fight? Nobody on this forum is dazzled by London but the fact is that the government don't believe anything exists outside of London. The fact that Birmingham and Manchester get referred to as "regional cities" is evidence of the typical shortsighted, shallow London attitude.

If Labour get their way, by 2020 the whole of England will be referred to as London.

A fight? Nobody on this forum is dazzled by London but the fact is that the government don't believe anything exists outside of London. The fact that Birmingham and Manchester get referred to as "regional cities" is evidence of the typical shortsighted, shallow London attitude.

If Labour get their way, by 2020 the whole of England will be referred to as London.

It's ok, if the Government want to concentrate so many resources on London then we shall all at some point have to move to the Greater London area. It will mean about 60 million+ all squeezed in and will most likely cripple the city but if that's what Central Government wants..........

It's ok, if the Government want to concentrate so many resources on London then we shall all at some point have to move to the Greater London area. It will mean about 60 million+ all squeezed in and will most likely cripple the city but if that's what Central Government wants..........

:lol: I wonder if our government has been watching too much Star Wars - you know where the capital city covers the entire planet?

:lol: I wonder if our government has been watching too much Star Wars - you know where the capital city covers the entire planet?

Darth Blair?^^

Darth Blair?^^

You spelled the name wrong. Its B-L-I-A-R..

So who's going to be our Luke Skywalker then?

A fight? Nobody on this forum is dazzled by London but the fact is that the government don't believe anything exists outside of London. The fact that Birmingham and Manchester get referred to as "regional cities" is evidence of the typical shortsighted, shallow London attitude.

If Labour get their way, by 2020 the whole of England will be referred to as London.

Right, so what are you Brummies (and Northerners in general) going to DO about it, as opposed to continuing to moan on round and round and round the subject ad nauseitum on this chatgroup? Or are you just going to continue to sit back and let 'Labour get their way' ?

You spelled the name wrong. Its B-L-I-A-R..

So who's going to be our Luke Skywalker then?

Hate it when I make spelling mistakes.

As for Luke Skywalker, I guess David Cameron - lesser of evils perhaps?

Right, so what are you Brummies (and Northerners in general) going to DO about it, as opposed to continuing to moan on round and round and round the subject ad nauseitum on this chatgroup? Or are you just going to continue to sit back and let 'Labour get their way' ?

Already answered that - we're all just going to move to Greater London and turn it into a Hong Kongx10.

Right, so what are you Brummies (and Northerners in general) going to DO about it, as opposed to continuing to moan on round and round and round the subject ad nauseitum on this chatgroup? Or are you just going to continue to sit back and let 'Labour get their way' ?

Personally? I want to see Gateway done. New St as it is, is a disgusting embarrasment which needs to be rectified.

I will not however, be sitting back and letting central government think that is the end of it. After New St is done, we need Moor St and Snow Hill modified to increase capacity. When New St is done, it will be only 10% under its maximum capacity as everyone knows.

Then, work needs to be done so that New Street stays at 10% under capacity, or thereabouts. Moor St needs to have its 2 redundant platforms brought into use. Snow Hill needs to be demolished and rebuilt with 6 platforms as a minimum, new spurs need to be built so that services can be diverted from New St into these stations, and the whole thing needs to be electrified.

We have been told that this is being looked at, along with re-routing some freight traffic to free up track capacity. We are also told that we'll need a new station in 40 years time.

In addition to that, The Sutton Park line, and the Moseley line need to be brought back into passenger use.

So, I will be doing my bit by writing to my MP & local councillors, and keep repeating it on here over and over again so that these plans are not conveniently forgotten, they are kept on the agenda, and these 'promised steps' actually happen

We shouldn't have to be doing this at all. Brum is the second biggest city in the country, and a major rail hub for passenger and freight services going through the entire country. Brum's rail network is a national issue, not just a Brummie one.

So there. :baeh3:

Right, so what are you Brummies (and Northerners in general) going to DO about it, as opposed to continuing to moan on round and round and round the subject ad nauseitum on this chatgroup? Or are you just going to continue to sit back and let 'Labour get their way' ?

There's very little action individuals can take. All power resides in London, if you want power you have to go to London, if you go to London you become co-opted by it and loose the purpose you went there with in the first place. I'm from Manchester, I love Manchester, but to get anywhere in the career path I'm currently taking I had to go to London. Now I care about tube crowding and Crossrail.

The only time when British provincial cities had independence from London (c19th) was when they were successfully pursuing economic objectives other than those of the political elite in London. And one man cannot do that.

I will not however, be sitting back and letting central government think that is the end of it.

So, I will be doing my bit by writing to my MP & local councillors, and keep repeating it on here over and over again so that these plans are not conveniently forgotten, they are kept on the agenda, and these 'promised steps' actually happen

We shouldn't have to be doing this at all. Brum is the second biggest city in the country, and a major rail hub for passenger and freight services going through the entire country. Brum's rail network is a national issue, not just a Brummie one.

So there. :baeh3:
Individuals writing to MPs and local Councillors from any of the three main Westminster parties is a waste of time and effort - none of them could give a toss as long as they can rely on the mass inertia of the donkey vote to keep them in office as long a suits them.

Nothing less than a full-blown concerted political movement, Scotch and Welsh style, will do it.

Nothing less than a full-blown concerted political movement, Scotch and Welsh style, will do it.

I agree, think we need Assemblies/Parliaments/Regional Governments for the North (North West, North East, Yorks, Lincolnshire, Cumbria), the Midlands and the South West.

But a ten-fold Hong Kong type city sounds quite good fun.

There's very little action individuals can take. All power resides in London, if you want power you have to go to London, if you go to London you become co-opted by it and loose the purpose you went there with in the first place. I'm from Manchester, I love Manchester, but to get anywhere in the career path I'm currently taking I had to go to London. Now I care about tube crowding and Crossrail.

The only time when British provincial cities had independence from London (c19th) was when they were successfully pursuing economic objectives other than those of the political elite in London. And one man cannot do that.
No, one man (or woman) can't but a concerted movement of many can - as the Scots and Welsh have proved. Northern England has several times the population of Scotland and Wales combined - it's the gumption, guts and commitment that's lacking.

I agree, think we need Assemblies/Parliaments/Regional Governments for the North (North West, North East, Yorks, Lincolnshire, Cumbria), the Midlands and the South West.



No we don't, we need a national movement and ultimately a government for a united Northern England, not a hotchpotch of toothless and self-serving barely-glorified county councils for the divide-and-rule Whitehall-imposed 'regions'. If Scotland and Wales had allowed themselves to be balkanised in that way they wouldn't even have got where they are now - to our detriment.

Yes, but Scotland and Wales are nations, and the north of England isn't.

But 'the north' is as much an alien imposition as 'the north west' 'the north east' and much more so than Yorkshire. The 'South' doesn't define itself in that way, so why should we. It is that the cities need to band together in common cause. The revolution won't come from Ribblesdale.

Anyway, far far off topic. If you want me to demonstrate why you're wrong in any greater detail take your soap box to city talk and await annihilation.

No we don't, we need a national movement and ultimately a government for a united Northern England, not a hotchpotch of toothless and self-serving barely-glorified county councils for the divide-and-rule Whitehall-imposed 'regions'. If Scotland and Wales had allowed themselves to be balkanised in that way they wouldn't even have got where they are now - to our detriment.

Ok then, maybe we need a seperate Northern Railway company to run the whole lock, stock and barrel?

Maybe we model it on the Dutch Railways?

Where frequencies is prevailent over speed.

Ok then, maybe we need a seperate Northern Railway company to run the whole lock, stock and barrel?

Maybe we model it on the Dutch Railways?

Where frequencies is prevailent over speed.

Tragedy is that

1) When the British railways were nationalised in 1948 with then a fairly strong structure of 6 regions, while Scotland got its own region Northern England didn't (nor for that matter did Wales) - of the other 5 regions, 4 were centred on London, only the North Eastern region wasn't, and that was subsumed into an enlarged Eastern Region in the 1960s.

2) Earlier in 1923 the govt-imposed compulsory merging of the many Britsh railway companies into 4 big groups, all centred on London, put an end to the predominance of home-based railways in the North, including some of the biggest and best-run ones. Prior to that MOST of the North's railway network was in the hands of companies headquartered in the North (York, Manchester, Derby, Stoke, Barrow and Hull), despite the defection of the Great Central from Manchester to London in the early 1900s.

Actually Brum and Black Country was one of the few Northern exceptions with two of the three pre-1923 companies serving it being London-based.

If I ever get time I intend to publish a paper on this topic.

Yes, but Scotland and Wales are nations, and the north of England isn't.

But Scotland and Wales weren't always nations, so how did they get there? The North so far hasn't become thought of as a nation because it's been consistently discouraged and hampered from doing so in many ways, but it still exists in the minds of many in and out of it.

But 'the north' is as much an alien imposition as 'the north west' 'the north east' and much more so than Yorkshire.

No you're quite wrong, - confirmed for example (just one of many) when the young Northern physiotherapist attending to me in a London Hospital, recognising my accent asks "Are you a Northerner?" - not, note "are you a Yorkshireman" or "Are you a Lancastrian" etc.

Yorkshire (and other northern shires) originated as an alien imposition discourtesy of the victorious Saxons from Wessex, no doubt designed to snuff out memories of the earlier Kingdom of Deira, but Yorkshire has always been more of a province than a county. Lancashire (and for that matter Westmorland) didn't even exist till the 12thC when they were created by decree from London.

The so-called 'North east' and North West' (not to mention the East and West Midlands) divide-and-rule 'regions' are completely artificial units imposed by Whitehall diktat - a word openly used by a senior Whitehall civil servant I was quizzing as to their origins.

The 'South' doesn't define itself in that way, so why should we.
Oh yes it does! - and not just since its Blatcherite victory over the rest of us in the last quarter century. I still remember the chorus of cheers which broke out from some of the audience every time the South of England was mentioned in geology lectures at Leeds university in the late 1960s.

It is that the cities need to band together in common cause. The revolution won't come from Ribblesdale.

Rural/small town North could be as much as an achilles heel as it proved in Scotland in the abortive devolution referendum in the 1970s. On the other hand, as the movers and shakers of Leeds, Bradford and Manchester increasingly live in commuterland in the Dales the impetus could increasingly come from the likes of Ribblesdale, and for that matter the Forest of Arden.

Anyway, far far off topic.

Yes but I introduced it here in the hope of planting some seed as to the only hope of a way forward, in the minds of those who endlessly rant and wail on this thread about the Brum rail shambles but hitherto don't look to have made any serious moves to get what they want and the city and country needs.

The nitty-gritty of the New Street and wider Brum terminals issue has been endlessly and repetitively covered here to (if not beyond) the point of mindnumbing tedium. Time to take a serious look at the way forward.

If you want me to demonstrate why you're wrong in any greater detail take your soap box to city talk and await annihilation.

If there's an existing relevant thread let's hear about it. Anyway, on your own admission you've thrown in your lot with London and will soon be a complete assimilado if you're not already:-

There's very little action individuals can take. All power resides in London, if you want power you have to go to London, if you go to London you become co-opted by it and loose the purpose you went there with in the first place. I'm from Manchester, I love Manchester, but to get anywhere in the career path I'm currently taking I had to go to London. Now I care about tube crowding and Crossrail.

Trust me, it is possible to spend many years, even decades, living and working in London (or elsewhere outside Northern England) and not lose your overriding concern for the old country's needs and future - But all too many do lose it, if they really had it in the first place.

But Scotland and Wales weren't always nations, so how did they get there? The North so far hasn't become thought of as a nation because it's been consistently discouraged and hampered from doing so in many ways, but it still exists in the minds of many in and out of it.

No. It hasn't because it is a part of England. A continuous 'nation' (meaning group of people of the same ethno-cultural background as oposed to state) convering all those lands who developed under an Anglo-Saxon cultural hegemony contrasting with the Brythonic one of Wales and Scotland. This Brythonic culture has ensured that they have never been fully soluble within England in a way that Mercia and Northumbria were.

No you're quite wrong, - confirmed for example (just one of many) when the young Northern physiotherapist attending to me in a London Hospital, recognising my accent asks "Are you a Northerner?" - not, note "are you a Yorkshireman" or "Are you a Lancastrian" etc.

In the South I am a Northerner. But it was not an identity I had ever considered before I moved to London. It was thrust upon me by the group processes of the 'southern' peoples. They didn't describe themselves as Southern so much as Londoners, or Norfolk or Oxonians because in a majority southerner context the word means nothing. Similarly ask a Loiner in Leeds where he's from and he'll say either England or Leeds, not 'the North'. However if you ask a Scot he'll say Scotland, because as an identity it means something more than a relative gography.

Yorkshire (and other northern shires) originated as an alien imposition discourtesy of the victorious Saxons from Wessex, no doubt designed to snuff out memories of the earlier Kingdom of Deira, but Yorkshire has always been more of a province than a county. Lancashire (and for that matter Westmorland) didn't even exist till the 12thC when they were created by decree from London.

The so-called 'North east' and North West' (not to mention the East and West Midlands) divide-and-rule 'regions' are completely artificial units imposed by Whitehall diktat - a word openly used by a senior Whitehall civil servant I was quizzing as to their origins.

Yes, so all northern geography since the eclipse of Penda's realm has been dictated from the South. I doesn't make vague and meaningless descriptions like 'northern' mean anything. It is as much an imposition as any other. Any idigenous validity is confined to the cities which grew from their own efforts and the Cumberland borders which preserve in themselves vague memories of the Brigantes and Rheged.

Oh yes it does! - and not just since its Blatcherite victory over the rest of us in the last quarter century. I still remember the chorus of cheers which broke out from some of the audience every time the South of England was mentioned in geology lectures at Leeds university in the late 1960s.

Supporting my point uppost. That such vague regional idenitites as Northern and Southern only come to prominence in the minority environment or at points of conflict. But ask a Londoner where they're from and they won't say the South.

Rural/small town North could be as much as an achilles heel as it proved in Scotland in the abortive devolution referendum in the 1970s. On the other hand, as the movers and shakers of Leeds, Bradford and Manchester increasingly live in commuterland in the Dales the impetus could increasingly come from the likes of Ribblesdale, and for that matter the Forest of Arden.

To be rich (and therefore live in the Dales, or Cheshire, or Ribblesdale) is to be in love with the status quo. Lawyers, Barristers, bankers and others whose livelihoods depend on the London industries have nothing to gain from spurning the capital. Northern cities (and therefore the wider 'north') propsered when they had a self dependent borguoisie and declined when those that had made fortunes in mills decamped to estates in the country.

Yes but I introduced it here in the hope of planting some seed as to the only hope of a way forward, in the minds of those who endlessly rant and wail on this thread about the Brum rail shambles but hitherto don't look to have made any serious moves to get what they want and the city and country needs.

Two points. One, since you aren't 'northern' yourself your advice comes off as just a further example of patronising southern thinking, however well it is intentioned, and two, you're ideas are so impractical, inappropriate and fanciful that the seeds you're planting might as well be papaya in the Pennine peat, for all chance they have of growing.

If there's an existing relevant thread let's hear about it. Anyway, on your own admission you've thrown in your lot with London and will soon be a complete assimilado if you're not already:-

Trust me, it is possible to spend many years, even decades, living and working in London (or elsewhere outside Northern England) and not lose your overriding concern for the old country's needs and future - But all too many do lose it, if they really had it in the first place.

There is no thread, I merely suggested if you wish to make your case further you should find or create an appropriate forum to do so, rather than hijacking Crossrail, or HSR, New Street Station threads.

And there is no 'old country'. There may be some differences between north and south and west, but they are all England. Now I shall say say no more unless you sight my lecturn somewhere more becoming of my argument than the pallisades shopping centre.

I am going to stick my neck out right now and predict that in 18 months time - with New Street STILL being pushed around like the pawn on the chessboard it has been for the last 300 millennia - the government will decide it isn't going to fund the redevelopment after all and the whole farce will hit the buffers again because of two things:

1) the cost will have escalated to £900 million or something
and
2) they've decided to use whatever money they have set aside for ALL West Midlands infrastructure projects to bail out the £50 billion cost of the fucking 2012 Olympics.


Crystal Ball gazing starts now.

Who else is going to bank on this one becoming the predictable outcome?

I'm not in the most optimistic of moods right now as you can all guess. With that insidiously leery-faced, double-bluffing, grave-robbing, foetus-chomping, baby-raping, pensioner-shafting twat Gordon Brown's budget imminent I can't see there being much cause for further celebration, can you??

No. It hasn't because it is a part of England. A continuous 'nation' (meaning group of people of the same ethno-cultural background as oposed to state) convering all those lands who developed under an Anglo-Saxon cultural hegemony contrasting with the Brythonic one of Wales and Scotland. This Brythonic culture has ensured that they have never been fully soluble within England in a way that Mercia and Northumbria were.

All that half-baked and ill-informed racial rubbish would have little or nothing to do with it even if you'd got your facts right. By your 'logic' Belgium should be partitioned between Netherlands and France, Switzerland between France, Germany and Italy, and Austria should be part of Germany - an idea tried before in living memory with unsatisfactory results.

It's a matter of practical common interest, not race, and the North of England, including Brum and Black Country has much common history with the rest of the North and a common interest in getting out from under the economic heel of London and the South through self-government. Only that way will such things as Brum's and the rest of the North's transport needs have a hope in hell of being met.

In your efforts to convince this forum you know what you’re talking about by throwing in an assortment of archaic names and places (how many Cumbrians have even heard of Rheged or the Brigantes?) you’ve just failed your history and geography GCSEs. I won’t bore the rest of the forum by writing an essay here, but just a few of the many points I could make:-

The ragbag of Angles, Normans, Britons, Picts, Norse and Irish (the latter the original ‘Scots’), not to mention more recent settlers who populate what’s now Scotland, achieved such cohesiveness and independence as they did under Anglo-Norman monarchs and barons in the Middle Ages.

Wales was nothing more than a bunch of warring petty principalities till a single infant ‘ruler’, the 'Prince of Wales' was imposed in a masterly con-trick by an English Norman/Angevin king.

Penda king of Mercia was killed in battle against Northumbria - not Wessex - in 654 in what’s now South Yorkshire (incidentally his Welsh allies did a runner and left him to his fate). During the next TWO CENTURIES, far from being ‘dictated to from the South the North’s two kingdoms of Northumbria and Mercia enjoyed their successive ‘golden ages’ taking it in turns to be the dominant power in what’s now ‘England’.

The subsequent defensive alliance between Mercia and Wessex against the Viking incursions (which had destroyed Northumbria and seriously damaged Mercia), together with the accidents of dynastic succession, resulted in the Wessex brigade gradually becoming top dog. a century or so later. Even then the dominance of London and the Southeast only dates from the takeover by the Normans who selected London as their capital in the 11thC. Thereafter the North was regarded as dispensable when it was regarded at all.

The industrial revolution, which got going two and a half centuries ago, gave the North its big chance, through the happy circumstance that it had the lion’s share of the country’s reliable waterpower, coal and iron. Unfortunately the North screwed up and let London continue to dominate and its financiers and aristocrats take the lion’s share of the profits and power, thanks to the sort of shortsightendess, narrowmindedness and individual self-seeking you’ve demonstrated here.

Even after that, in the shortlived mid 20thC boom times Brummies and others in central England thought economic stagnation was a disease only affecting the rest of the North, from which they were immune. The last devastating quarter century of Blatcherism has proved them wrong.

Nothing less than Brum and the rest of the North getting together for once and pursuing their considerable common interests will deliver the goods, including the necessary investment in givng Brum the rail system it needs and deserves. I personally strongly believe that nothing less than an autonomous if not completely independent Northern state will do it, but if anybody thinks they’ve any better suggestions let’s hear them.

Trace a polygon round Brum, Liverpool, Leeds, Hull, Leicester and Coventry and you have Britain’s and the North of England’s urban heartland which is one of Europe’s biggest agglomerations and could and should lead the North as a whole to long-overdue power, prosperity and influence.


And perhaps your biggest howler of all:-

since you aren't 'northern' yourself …….

What basis have you for that assertion, eh ????

As for:-

you're ideas are so impractical, inappropriate and fanciful that the seeds you're planting might as well be papaya in the Pennine peat, for all chance they have of growing……..

Now I shall say say no more unless you sight my lecturn somewhere more becoming of my argument than the pallisades shopping centre.

full marks for vapid pomposity but not for literacy.

Whatever occupation you’ve chosen (financial disservices, politics, the law??) to do your little bit to help London continue to screw the rest including your city and country of origin, and which you claim you can’t pursue back home (unlike apparently all those ‘Lawyers, Barristers, bankers and others’ in ‘the Dales, or Cheshire, or Ribblesdale’), I have to say the worst of luck to you. I'll continue to do what I can to encourage and cajole other Northerners into standing up for themselves and their country's future.

I am going to stick my neck out right now and predict that in 18 months time - with New Street STILL being pushed around like the pawn on the chessboard it has been for the last 300 millennia - the government will decide it isn't going to fund the redevelopment after all and the whole farce will hit the buffers again because of two things:

1) the cost will have escalated to £900 million or something
and
2) they've decided to use whatever money they have set aside for ALL West Midlands infrastructure projects to bail out the £50 billion cost of the fucking 2012 Olympics.


Crystal Ball gazing starts now.

Who else is going to bank on this one becoming the predictable outcome?

I'm not in the most optimistic of moods right now as you can all guess. With that insidiously leery-faced, double-bluffing, grave-robbing, foetus-chomping, baby-raping, pensioner-shafting twat Gordon Brown's budget imminent I can't see there being much cause for further celebration, can you??

I fear you're only too right. For the only realistic way to overcome that see my current exchanges with renegade ex-Northerner 'Cherguevara'.

[One little piece of friendly advice: lose the copious and gratuitous swear words - they detract from rather than enhancing your often well-founded comments].

Could we move the Northern argument somewhere else? I'm not saying it isn't a valid discussion, it's just it's dragging the thread off topic; plus I'm sure you'd have a more varied discussion with more people about it in a new thread somewhere a bit more general, rather than in the New Street thread. Hope I don't sound like some arsehole saying that, apologies if I do.

With regards to Martin's comments - yes the politics around it is pathetic. And I bet that if Cameron made a speech tomorrow saying that if the Tories won the next election they'd make New St a priority for funding, Brown would fund it straight away, just to remove it from election campaigning.

But, despite it's importance to public transport on a national level, this doesn't seem to be a national issue. No-one has even asked Brown about it have they? Oh Blair said he supports it, but his opinion doesn't matter at all now.

It does make me wonder if Labour have given up on their Birmingham MPs. In theory a Labour government allowing the redevelopment would be a great campaigning platforms for the locals MPs - yet they (the government) don't seem to be interested. Which makes me wonder if Brown doesn't want to share the glory with a non-Labour council.

But maybe I'm being unfair. Maybe it is being scrutinised in detail by transport experts in the Department for Transport. Yeah right, transport experts in the Department for Transport. Even I wouldn't fall for that one.

Could we move the Northern argument somewhere else? I'm not saying it isn't a valid discussion, it's just it's dragging the thread off topic; plus I'm sure you'd have a more varied discussion with more people about it in a new thread somewhere a bit more general, rather than in the New Street thread. Hope I don't sound like some arsehole saying that, apologies if I do.

No worries lad - I've said what I considered needed to be said, IN the context of this New Street thread. If Brummies and others concerned don't pick it up and run with it, or rubbish the whole idea, that's their funeral.

I fear you're only too right. For the only realistic way to overcome that see my current exchanges with renegade ex-Northerner 'Cherguevara'.

[One little piece of friendly advice: lose the copious and gratuitous swear words - they detract from rather than enhancing your often well-founded comments].

^^ Sorry mate. I guess it's all down to the fact that most of the time when I have to say anything I get a touch of the classic Gordon Ramsay-isms : i.e. the more passionate my views, the more I have a subconscious tendency to pepper them with expletives! ;)

No need to apologise, not to me anyway - doesn't upset me personally, I'm just concerned about it detracting in the eyes of others. Nothing wrong with a bit of passion, and I too can be provoked to spectacularly foul language in speech, but taking the trouble to type it seems something else, without you're dictating your postings with speech recognition software, - in which case perhaps the program can be 'trained' to clean up your act?!

I'm not in the most optimistic of moods right now as you can all guess. With that insidiously leery-faced, double-bluffing, grave-robbing, foetus-chomping, baby-raping, pensioner-shafting twat Gordon Brown's budget imminent I can't see there being much cause for further celebration, can you??

Not too fond of him then? :lol:

Could we move the Northern argument somewhere else? I'm not saying it isn't a valid discussion, it's just it's dragging the thread off topic; plus I'm sure you'd have a more varied discussion with more people about it in a new thread somewhere a bit more general, rather than in the New Street thread. Hope I don't sound like some arsehole saying that, apologies if I do.

No you sound eminently sensible.

For further debate please click (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=454691)

I happened to catch a train into New Street the other day, interestingly I could see many of the brick arches patched up over the years, I wonder how long it will be before some of these deep Victorian arches and walls become disasters waiting to happen with subsidence?

I noticed a small part of the original New Street station actually in tact, any design redevelopment should be carried out in association with the people behind Brindley place... in a word I trust them to give the city something worth having.

As regards ground subsidence I believe central Brum's subsoil/rock is sounder than some elsewhere, ie not clay or suchlike. The arches and other structures themselves could however deteriorate beyond the point of no return, in which case at best there'll be prolonged disruption during renewal, at worst it could be used as an excuse to close the route and even the station.

Couldn't be allowed to happen? - think again, that sort of thing (an allegedly weak overbridge) was used to close and oblterate the magnificent and centrally located Bradford Exchange station and permanently cut back the line to the edge of the city centre. And although some of you may think New Street's position on the national through route network makes it impregnable there's diversionary routes and the Westminster govt has amply demonstrated it couldn't give a toss about Brum and its associated rail punters.

From Construction News

Network Rail unveils £2.4bn expansion plan

A £2.4 billion expansion of the railways over the next two years was announced today by Network Rail.

The programme will include the lengthening of hundreds of platforms, speed rises on some lines, new tracks and major resignalling schemes.

Network Rail chief executive John Armitt said the programme was a response by the company to the rising demand for rail travel.

The £2.44 billion of enhancements will be carried out from this month to March 2009.

Network Rail will fund £1.73 billion of the schemes, with the rest of the money coming from other stakeholders in the railways, including the Department for Transport and local authorities.

At £1.2 billion a year, the total is more than double the average annual spending on enhancements.

Schemes being worked on over the next two years include projects connected with the 2012 Olympics, on which £109 million will be spent by March 2009.

Around two thirds of a £300 million new line between Arbroath and Bathgate in Scotland will be completed over the next two years.

Other projects include new platforms at Manchester Airport station and at King's Cross in London as well as £165 million worth of new track in the Trent Valley.

Mr Armitt said: “For the first time on record, over £1 billion per year will be spent on expanding and growing the railway network. This, more than anything, shows how the needs of today's railway are shifting.

“We will never lose sight of the imperative to run a safe and reliable railway each and every day, but responding to the challenge of growth becomes a new and important priority for the company.”



No mention of New St, although I understand this is being dealt with separately.

BBC News said they are to invest in 900 projects! Jesus Christ!

^^ although that does seem like a huge amount, i suppose any development that they would be doing on the rail way would be a "project". the fact that New Street is not mentioned may be due to the fact that it is not guranteed and so not included in the statistics or that it is being dealt with externally.

BBC News said they are to invest in 900 projects! Jesus Christ!

One of which should be a station for Corby. Apparently over £1m of funding has been secured to build a station and upgrade the track. London in 65 mins here we come! :banana:

London in 65 mins here we come! :banana:

Is that really the limit of your aspirations?

Is that really the limit of your aspirations?

No, but its a decent start - we dont have a rail station at the moment and the town is about 55,000 in population.

I know Corby moderately well, and it's a mystery to me how a town that size managed to lose its railway station and train services in the first place. Very careless if I may say so, don't do it again.

And here's another - and countervailing? - aspiration for you:-

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/192/445949865_d72e29d5d5.jpg?v=0

Blair in New Street pledge
Apr 5 2007


By Jon Griffin, Birmingham Mail




TONY Blair today guaranteed Government support for a £500 million plan to transform New Street Station and pledged: "We are prepared to put the money in."

The Prime Minister told the Bimingham Mail an announcement on funding would be made in the summer and said he was "deeply sympathetic" to the huge revamp.

He said: "There will be a decision taken in the summer. It comes down to funding and it comes down to how much we put in and how much you guys come up with.

"We are looking as favourably as we can on the basic principle of the proposal but you have to get the funding sorted.


Story continues
ADVERTISEMENT

"Birmingham is a great European city now. If you are a first-class city, you need a first-class infrastructure."

Mr Blair's pledge marks the biggest promise of political support since a cross-party report said crucial transport schemes such as New Street were being held back because of a Government stranglehold on funding.

The All Party Parliamentary Urban Development Group said the Birmingham Gateway scheme to redevelop the city's main rail station had a £140 million shortfall and was a "classic example" of the log-jam.

But Mr Blair said the Government was continuing to closely study the Gateway plan and added: "The station needs to be done - I am deeply sympathetic. I have always been a strong supporter of sorting out New Street. Birmingham has undergone so many changes in the last few years, it is a far more attractive place.

"I have seen Birmingham change over the last 10 years significantly. I remember G8 in 1998.

"It is not just about a station. It is an investment for the future, there is no doubt about that."

Mr Blair said funding for the scheme - backed by a Birmingham Mail campaign - had to be sorted out in detail before New Street could be transformed.

City council leaders have said they are "cautiously optimistic" that the long-awaited project will get the green light this summer.

Ok, I'll start holding my breath...


NOW!

Unsurprisingly, he's off before the announcement...

Thanks for the post though :)

Unfortunately, I dont believe anything that comes out of Tony Bliar's mouth

At least its on the agenda and the top politicians are talking about it. This increases the chances that it will go through. It would be very hard for someone to back this and then pull out so it can only be good news!

At least its on the agenda and the top politicians are talking about it. This increases the chances that it will go through. It would be very hard for someone to back this and then pull out so it can only be good news!

Assuming Bliar stays in office until the summer, otherwise what's to stop Gordon "Slimeball" Browntounge sticking his filthy spanner in the works?

Well it seems unlikely that someone from the same party and so close to the PM could have such conflicting views on this so i would imagine that he would have the same way of thinking and beliefs. Plus as he wants to be popular and get Labour back in contention for the next General Election i believe it would be good PR for him 2 also back this.

Aaah, but you're talking common sense, something this goverment don't have any of.

Splop i guess your right! But if they Do and its a big BUT! They should be more helpful in the funding and approving of the station to implement the changes Birmingham so desperately wants and needs.

We can only hope. :)

For some reason, New St Stn's outline planning application appears to be up again before the planning committee next week. Anyone know why? It has already been given the thumbs up.

I wonder whether this signifies any movement?

For some reason, New St Stn's outline planning application appears to be up again before the planning committee next week. Anyone know why? It has already been given the thumbs up.

I wonder whether this signifies any movement?

It seems that previously they didn't authorise it, but checked to see if they should refer it to DCLG - who have said they don't want it passed to them.

There's now a long list of things they want before approval is given - assuming the link works, go here (http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/xdirectory/public/meetingsAndAgendas/agendaDetails.jsp?meetBodType=Regulatory&meetBodId=353&recordId=76816) and choose the Report back PDF

Ah - thanks :)

Reading it in a bit more detail it seems this just extends a deadline so no actual decisions will be taken - however it recommends a deadline of 31 May for S106 conditions to be met or refuse permission.

Also curious is that BT lodged an objection that dust from the work could enter the Big Brown Thing on Hill Street and disrupt equipment as a lot of it is just behind louvres. Another reason to tear it down I say (sorry Stephen, but even with a refurb I can't stand the idea that the first building people coming out of the new New St will see is that thing :P )

^^They've been complaining about that for a while. I think it gives them an excuse to build something better that stops dust wafting into their machinery.

No, but its a decent start - we dont have a rail station at the moment and the town is about 55,000 in population.

Thats a shocking state of affairs :crazy: .

'Local' rail links between cities

More rail services between the UK's two largest cities will "effectively turn London into a suburb of Birmingham", Virgin Trains has claimed.
It has said it plans to run a further 17 trains a day between the cities, beginning in January 2009.

Three trains will run each hour during off-peak periods, while there will be three more trains arriving in London before 0900 GMT.

Most will also call at Birmingham International and Coventry.

A regular hourly service will be provided to Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford Junction.



BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6572553.stm)

The news in itself is obviously excellent. But I'm also pleased with 2 particular points of the way the Beeb has reported this one.

More rail services between the UK's two largest cities
They've finally notced!

"effectively turn London into a suburb of Birmingham"
Like It!

I had to go to the airport yesterday, and ended up on a Virgin Pendolino. I have to say, even though I was only on the thing for 9 minutes, they are damn good!

:lol: The Birmingham Post are stirring again:

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/news/tm_headline=railway-station%2Ds-%2D400m-refit%26method=full%26objectid=18935385%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

:lol: The Birmingham Post are stirring again:

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/news/tm_headline=railway-station%2Ds-%2D400m-refit%26method=full%26objectid=18935385%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

Bastards. I read the first paragraph and almost (literally) jumped for joy. Then read on. Someone there obviously decided to have a little fun with the readers :p

:lol: The Birmingham Post are stirring again:

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/news/tm_headline=railway-station%2Ds-%2D400m-refit%26method=full%26objectid=18935385%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

:lol: They are cheeky cheeses aren't they!

At first I thought we were getting a scaled down New St.Two hundred million off the project.

:lol:

Its nice that we are starting to stand up for ourselves though and exploring the complete one-sideness of the rail development programme which sees multi-million pound developments passed weekly in London and yearly in the regions.

All things aside, on the tower developments, this is a proposal in Hanoi.

Something like this as a gateway to the station I personally think would be fantastic.

http://www.tsq.vn/images/td_over.jpg

Now that's what I call iconic.Let's throw in landmark building too !

:lol:

Its nice that we are starting to stand up for ourselves though and exploring the complete one-sideness of the rail development programme which sees multi-million pound developments passed weekly in London and yearly in the regions.

You mean weekly in the London/SE region and yearly in the other regions.

Am I the only one to be really pissed off by network WMs decision to rip out all of the electronic information boards at New Street and replace them with theses new tiny black screens with orange writing. They look terrible and are a bugger to read. Today there were several people next to me squinting to read them. They are bloody awful. :bash: :bash: :bash:

Am I the only one to be really pissed off by network WMs decision to rip out all of the electronic information boards at New Street and replace them with theses new tiny black screens with orange writing. They look terrible and are a bugger to read. Today there were several people next to me squinting to read them. They are bloody awful. :bash: :bash: :bash:
Do you mean when they replaced the big mechanical boards over the gates with the screens some years ago now? Or have they just changed them again? I haven't been to New Street for a while.

The screens I'm familiar with are definitely hard to read. You have to stand exactly the right distance away to be within the viewing angle, and any reflection makes them unreadable.

Definitely agree. At least with Euston its a series of big screens. These are tiny and, yeah, very unreadable.

The ones above WH Smith useless unless you know the destination of train if your getting off at a stop en route.

I guess there must be a reason but a bit of a mistake.
Perhaps when they have one of the 'ask the management' days when manager on concourse we can have a moan.

i find them ok...... if these are the ascreen we're talking about and now another replacement

I hate them, they look too small and ridiculous, looking at them you wouldn't be able to tell how big and busy the station is.

I agree Telfordboy its hard to believe it is at the center of the network with those three little info boards above WHSmiths.

Talk about a one step forward two steps back. :bash:

The old plasma colour screens have been changed for yellow plasma screens. I do find them awful. These are brand new ones, which seem to be rolling out at every NWM station. I have asked about the screens by WH Smith, and they will not be putting boards there. There are three boards there now which just show arrivals and departures.

But that's the trend everywhere in the country now - these plasma screens are an absolutely bastard when it comes to direct sunlight hitting them - they're are completely unreadable then. And everywhere you go now the large boards are being replaced by these smaller scrolling ones which have two pages of destinations - so you can't see them all to view in one go cos they keep flicking from one to the other - and as if that isn't bad enough, they then alternate the departures /arrivals information with completely fucking useless and pointless bollocks like "due to today's wet weather, please take extra care when walking around the station complex" OR "security alert - please ensure you do not leave your luggage unattended" etc etc... what is the fucking point of these totally unnecessary messages when they could at least post them up IN OTHER FUCKING PLACES IN THE STATION PREMISES without the need to clutter up the VDU screens?? Do they think people are completely stupid?

Besides, the fucking public address system tannoys at every large terminal keep repeating ad nauseum those annoying Big Brother announcements about security, left luggage, no smoking, feeding pigeons, cycling, skateboarding, CCTV surveillance, car parking, etc etc every bleeding few seconds as it is so why the need to have it both ways?? Talk about getting their priorities wrong!

I mean, I'm sure others get pissed off when they're trying to search for their train on the screen and then the page has flipped over to something completely irrelevant like these bastard "damp weather" or "security / luggage" messages - cos it makes all the difference between you catching your train and missing it if you know what I'm getting at - it's fucking infuriating. Network Rail really haven't got a fucking clue when it comes to communication - they just overdo everything using technology like it's some great novelty and forget the essential golden rule about effective communication in the first place: keeping it fucking simple and direct. :bash: :bash:

There is probably a reason for putting messages on those screens and thats because people are looking at the screens !!!

I do agree with messages but you should know with New Street, messages read out usually mean an activity is taking place that shouldnt. Hence "New Street is a no smoking zone, please extinguish all smoking materials immediately" will be announced if someone is spotted smoking or attempting to.

The problem with the screens above WH smith is they replaced 10? with three. If they had kept 10 with immediate trains and theyre full destination it wouldnt be so bad.

The smoking and luggage are said every 20 minutes at BNS.

Pick pocket message was said today, told me to stay away from the pay phones. ;)

^^

ONLY "every 20 minutes"???

Here in Manchester Piccadilly it's every three minutes - or whenever there is a gap of more than 30 seconds silence (after all they don't want to be giving the impression that the station is a quiet place with more than 30 seconds silence between announcements now, do they?). Seriously, it is beyond a joke - if the fucking annoying automated system isn't announcing trains arriving and departing it's then filling the voids with countless inane repeated messages about security, car parking, no smoking, no skateboarding, CCTV, unattended luggage, loitering, etc etc etc. And it never ever shuts up for even more than two minutes. To me that is the worst kind of noise pollution you can imagine - and the volume of these announcements is fucking deafening.

It's the same now in many other large rail terminals - the country is becoming almost indundated with these cloned "big brother" public address systems - just because they feel they have the technology there to take liberties with and abuse as much as they like in as many inappropriate contexts as possible. Plus of course the government are now coming up with the smart idea of making lamp-posts and signposts in towns (especially those with CCTV cameras) speak as well..... fuck me, there's no hope left for the right to peace and quiet anywhere you go. :bash:

There is probably a reason for putting messages on those screens and thats because people are looking at the screens !!!



But surely you find it fucking annoying that whilst you're trying to find your train or whichever service you require the information is suddenly interrupted by the page turning to another alternate one or flicking onto that fucking "security" or "luggage" or "wet weather" message - because it annoys the shit out of me - it makes all the difference between you catching and missing your train. They have signs elsewhere in the station - so why the fuck do they need to stick gratuitous reminders on screens as well AND still have to announce them out loud through the public address systems every two minutes every hour of the bleeding day as well?

I'm telling you, the whole system is a complete crock of shit....and it's only like this because of pathetic "trendiness" and spurious "health and safety regulations" that they now go overboard on everything to the extreme that even when you board a train you are bombarded with about 10 minutes worth of completely pointless and unneccessary waffling announcements from either live humans or yet more computerised public address systems. Which other country in the western world is as crap as this country is with such blatant misappropriation of technology ?

The smoking and luggage are said every 20 minutes at BNS.

Pick pocket message was said today, told me to stay away from the pay phones. ;)

How long were you on platform. It's not every 20 mins. I can testify having used the station mid delay and cancelled trains regularly.
What is said and cracks me up everytime is "passenger lifts are located at the A end of every platform for access" except that word 'access' because the person recorded is cornish or similar sounds like 'aaaacccccceeeeesssssss'.

They might state it at a regular interval but it is usually reserved for incidents to remind others and to stop the offender.

No, they have to do one at least every 20 minutes.

Martin, "and the volume of these announcements is fucking deafening". Yes they are, 88dB SPL (A) I measured if you are sat down at New Street on one of the chairs. By law all staff should wear ear protection because they are exposed to that loudness level (anything over 85 dB SPL (A), 80dB they should have training and offer protection to staff if they want them) for hours at a time. No protection for the staff though. Also, go to the info desk, they should give you some free ear protection also. I wonder if they do have any on the desk.

duplicate post - see below

These are some of the completely inane announcements we get at Manchester Piccadilly almost non-stop in between the train announcements:


'vehicles parked outside the station without a permit may be clamped or towed away'

'24 hour parking is available at this station - short stay and long stay car parking is also available'

'Manchester Piccadilly station is a no smoking station. Please refrain from smoking whilst in the station buildings.'

'security personnel patrol this station 24 hours a day'

'this is a safety announcement, it is not permitted to skateboard, cycle, or loiter on the station premises'

'shops, restaurants and toilets are provided for you at this station for your convenience'

'please do not chew gum or spit on the station premises - any antisocial behaviour is being monitored 24 hours a day by the station security personnel in co-operation with the British Transport Police.'

'the consumption of alcoholic drinks is strictly prohibited on any of the station premises or on the trains. Licensed premises for alcoholic drinks are provided on the station concourse for your convenience.'

'escalators and travelators for access to platform 13 and 14 are provided along platform 10 for your convenience'

'please do not attempt to feed the pigeons on this station. Pigeons constitute a health and safety hazard.'

'24 hour CCTV operates at this station - pictures are constantly monitored and sent to security personnel for your own safety'

'ticket checks are held at this station, please have your tickets ready for inspection before you board or alight from your trains.'

'please do not leave your luggage unattended at this station. Unattended luggage may be removed, damaged or destroyed without warning by security personnel'

'this is a safety announcement - due to today's wet weather surfaces may be slippery, please take extra care when walking around the station and platforms'

'this is a safety announcement, due to today's hot weather customers are advised to take extra care on the platforms.'

'this is a safety announcement, due to today's windy weather customers are advised to take extra care on the platforms and to stop eating too many curries.'

'this is another stupid announcement, do you all think I should shut the fuck up and just let you all get on with your business with the minimum of fuss and intrusion?'

'aaaa-gaaa doo doo doo, push pineapple shake my tits, agadoo-doo-doo this kebab gives me the shits, to the left, to the right, I'll have a double big mac with cheese, have a shag every night, toss me off under the trees'

No, they have to do one at least every 20 minutes.
.


Well hate to break it to you but they DONT. So either its a different frequency or changes through day in frequency.

Forgot the stand to the right along escalators message.


Humm, no drinking alcohol. Yet they have alcohol on sale in WH Smiths, the news agent at BNS, Marks and Spencer, the pub there, and most trains have bars.

Forgot the stand to the right along escalators message.


Humm, no drinking alcohol. Yet they have alcohol on sale in WH Smiths, the news agent at BNS, Marks and Spencer, the pub there, and most trains have bars.

Since when have we had stand on the right for escalators.
If we do im very impressed but would be better to have signs a la underground.

You can always tell getting off London to Brum train who is used to London and who isnt in how they stand on escalator.

It's common knowledge. Stand or walk up stairs to the right to allow people who are in a rush to catch a connecting train. BNS sometimes at peak hours has a manual announcement to be on the right.

It's common knowledge. Stand or walk up stairs to the right to allow people who are in a rush to catch a connecting train. BNS sometimes at peak hours has a manual announcement to be on the right.

Im afraid your wrong again; its not common knowledge up north compared to down south. Just look at people using escalators into and out of station and then off platforms. If there were signs like underground along escalator it might help and get people used to it.

Are you from down south originally?

I've been aware of the 'stand on the right' rule on London tube station escalators ever since first visiting that city and system in the mid 1960s, but heve never seen the logic in view of the left-hand rule of the road in this country. Let's correct that in the rest of the country by adopting a more consistent 'stand on the left' rule.

What annoys me is that crowds rush up the escalator and the stairs leaving anyone trying to get to the platform to squeeze past down the side. And whats so f****n hard about the notion of allowing people off a train before you try and get on? People seem to loose any sense of politeness when within the confines of BNS!:nuts:

Also coming back on the Walsall line this evening to Tame Bridge I ended up on a Silverlink County train not a Central train, wierd - Have Silverlink won the franchise? Is this the end of Central? It even had a first class section and as CENTRO don't do different class tickets I just upgraded myself. No one else seemed to be willing, they just stood up. lol

I have heard by Silverlink and Central will be out of the region soon as they lost their bid. Anyone confirm?

I hate these new Central Trains, like the ones that go to Liverpool Lime Street - Their aircon is damn noisy!

I have heard by Silverlink and Central will be out of the region soon as they lost their bid. Anyone confirm?

I hate these new Central Trains, like the ones that go to Liverpool Lime Street - Their aircon is damn noisy!

Damn sight better than Voyagers.........

Desiro are the noisy ones. Good trains though. Usually 4-5 cars, sit quite a lot of people and allow for ample standing room.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_350

I remember years ago when I used to get the 7:55 from platform 8a to Sutton Coldfield. I always turned up 5 minutes before and it was when a massive train pulled in on the platform opposite (it might have been 9 but I'm not too sure). It was a noisy bugger and obviously a heavy one has the vibrations from the engines could be felt at our platform and no doubt further - must be loosening up some panels on the station requiring a rebuild hopefully.

Anyway, what I liked most about it was all the fumes it let out (are you crazy?!) because they didn't escape the station at all (he really is crazy!) so at the roof of the station, they formed a misty grey cloud which looked awesome. As a 12 year old, it was quite impressive as it looked magical. :yes:

Anyway, back on topic :)

Also coming back on the Walsall line this evening to Tame Bridge l.
Pete are you from Friar Park or Stone Cross? I ask because I'm interested in knowing how the development on the Stone Cross island is coming on.

Friar Park, you insult me. :lol: No, I am from Charlemont (you know Charlemont Avenue/Bustlehome Lane area, not far from Stone Cross.

Its coming on well, the underground car park is done and they are upto about the second or third floor. I have some pics somewhere, I will put them up in the Black Country thread.

Go into the Palisades and look at resting cups of tea or coffee, they vibrate.

Friar Park, you insult me. :lol: No, I am from Charlemont (you know Charlemont Avenue/Bustlehome Lane area, not far from Stone Cross.

Its coming on well, the underground car park is done and they are upto about the second or third floor. I have some pics somewhere, I will put them up in the Black Country thread.


Yes,I know those places Pete.... just off the 410 route.Sorry about the Friar Park reference:)

Thanks for the Stone Cross update.Is the train to New St more convenient than the Metro to Snow Hill ? I imagine that you can leave the car at Tame Bridge station.

I've been aware of the 'stand on the right' rule on London tube station escalators ever since first visiting that city and system in the mid 1960s, but heve never seen the logic in view of the left-hand rule of the road in this country. Let's correct that in the rest of the country by adopting a more consistent 'stand on the left' rule.

Everywhere I've ever been in the UK outside of London has been 'keep left' on stairs and escalators - school, university, work, whatever.

My pet theory is that there are so many foreigners in London it's less hassle to get the few Brits in the city to keep right than it is to get all those foreigners to follow the British custom of keeping left. :)

newcastle is also keep right all the metro stations and train stations are

Everywhere I've ever been in the UK outside of London has been 'keep left' on stairs and escalators - school, university, work, whatever.

My pet theory is that there are so many foreigners in London it's less hassle to get the few Brits in the city to keep right than it is to get all those foreigners to follow the British custom of keeping left. :)

Apart ironically from the odd tube station with connecting passages where they say to keep left :nuts:

My mom always goes on about standing on right is bad because thats where her handbag is when she is holding rail.

Just heard some mutterings that the much needed start on the new New Street redevelopment that was hoped to be started on in 2008 has been deferred due to "regrettably unavoidable circumstances and problems with seeking concrete financial approval" - come on now everybody - what else did you expect???? :no:

Well unless you heard it off Gordon Brown we are all waiting for comprehensive spending review. It states in several documents we are waiting for summer to find out if and how much money we will get.

So it's pretty likely that they won't be able to stump up the requisite amount of cash to fund the entirety of this project then? I mean, let's be honest, this sort of rigmarole is going to be pretty much par for the course (unless, of course, we're talking about LONDON termini.....) and the longer it's going to be dragged into "consultation" and "approval", then the greater chance that the costs are going to keep on rising until they decide that they will start to scale down the proposals and try and deliver a half-baked compromise project just to stay within budget. To this end it all hinges on what decision the odious Nodrog Brown is going to come up with? Surely Birmingham deserves all the stops to be pulled out for this one exception - after all, it's been the city's bugbear for long enough, wouldn't you all agree?

Agreed, but Brum isn't Scotch, Southern or marginal. I've told you all what the answer is - it's up to you whether you pick that up and run with it.

Was in here for the first time in years, the actual concourse/access to the platforms seemed soo small, even on a dismal sunday afternoon it was too crowded. As for the notice boards, what the heck? Why take out the banks of screens that seemed to work fine only to replace them with 3 of them?

Are they having a Giraff or something?

And I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but who's stupid idea was it build a rather midrange out of town shopping centre on the top? Sure I knew I could get to the station, but for someone out of town, how would they even know that they could go to it from the Ramp bit?

[bad taste joke alert]Can't we get the IRA to blow it up or something?[/bad taste joke alert]

Yea i hope it blows up too as long as nobodys inside at that time, Its more like the swan shopping centre than a downtown kind of cool place, I agree with MArtin unless we were London its always going to be hold ups, stick ups and so forth....the two towers for hanoi are f****g incredible the day we'd get something that class is the day karan brady would become mayor, why it seems every other city i nthe world get such state of the art and we get second best, Generally speaking of course.

...... I agree with MArtin unless we were London its always going to be hold ups, stick ups and so forth.....

Less pathetic moaning, more action to change that - it could be done.

Is there still 2 towers planned for here?

Yes. And they have two days to be submitted, along with the rest of the scheme. Nothing in yet.

Ok, thanks

Yes. And they have two days to be submitted, along with the rest of the scheme. Nothing in yet.

Dare I ask what happens if the deadline is missed?

Oh, doesnt that refer to the report I posted earlier, where if the bits and pieces regarding S106 and others werent agreed by end of May they would refuse approval?

Anyway, looks like whatever happens we will be having the money off government to redo New Street so keep the eyes peeled for planning apps or more news.

Multi-billion rail plans aimed at tackling congestion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,,2090081,00.html

· Above-inflation fare rises will stay, passengers told
· New focus on 'carbon, capacity and customers'

Dan Milmo, transport correspondent
Tuesday May 29, 2007
The Guardian

The government will unveil a multi-billion pound rebuilding programme for the British rail network this summer to ease congestion on the most crowded lines.
Ministers will give the go-ahead to the £500m reconstruction of Birmingham's New Street station and are close to approving a £3.5bn overhaul of the former Thameslink route through London.

The two large development projects will feature in the government's strategy for the railways between 2009 and 2014 to be announced in July. The High Level Output Statement [HLOS] comes at a critical juncture for the UK rail network, which has overcome a collapse in safety standards during the first 10 years of privatisation but is struggling to cope with booming demand.

Passenger groups also want an end to yearly above-inflation fare increases, particularly if road pricing is delayed and people are forced off crowded roads on to trains. "Sooner or later above-inflation fare increases to pay for an expanding railway will have to be stopped, particularly if we don't get road pricing," said Stephen Joseph, executive director of Transport 2000. He added: "These fares will be paid by voters who live in some of the most marginal constituencies, which will decide the result of the next election."
However, the government has warned that inflation-busting fare increases will continue for the foreseeable future. It is ordering 1,000 extra rail carriages to cope with rising passenger numbers and it expects fare increases to cover much of the £1bn cost. Network Rail, the company that runs and maintains the rail system, is asking to spend £28bn between 2009 and 2014, with passengers expected to meet a significant proportion of that cost.

The HLOS will be published alongside a white paper that will outline government strategy for the railways over the next 30 years. Ministers are using the phrase "carbon, capacity and customers" to define their long-term strategy. The carbon section will examine the environmental benefits of rail and is expected to look at full electrification of the rail network in order to eliminate use of CO2-generating diesel trains. Capacity will focus on expanding next year a network that ran more than 1bn passenger journeys. Environmental groups have warned that after 2014 the incremental improvements, such as a rebuilt New Street station and a revamped London to Brighton route, will not be enough and new lines will have to be built. "That is the tough question: what do we do after 2014 when we run out of capacity?" said Mr Joseph.

The customer section is expected to refer to Britain's ageing population and the probable need, as a consequence, for more wheelchair access for stations and trains.

In addition to the HLOS, Gordon Brown is also understood to favour the £10bn Crossrail project that will link Heathrow airport to Canary Wharf via central London and which some business leaders view as vital to maintain the capital's leading position in the global financial services industry. However, the incoming prime minister has yet to declare whether the government will supply the estimated £3bn in direct state funding that it needs to get off the ground, amid speculation that he will give the go-ahead to Crossrail in his first 100 days as prime minister. A spokesman for the Department for Transport said: "We will publish these documents in the summer and we cannot speculate on their contents at this stage."

btw, Has anyone seen any more plans for Euston redevelopment. We ought to pursuade British Land to do New Street too. Looks like going to be quite a mixed use development. http://www.britishland.com/prospects_dev.htm

http://www.britishland.com/images/Euston-Interior-Colour.jpg

btw, Has anyone seen any more plans for Euston redevelopment. We ought to pursuade British Land to do New Street too. Looks like going to be quite a mixed use development. http://www.britishland.com/prospects_dev.htm

http://www.britishland.com/images/Euston-Interior-Colour.jpg

Maybe, but a development-led rebuilt Euston on the same unsatisfactory site, rather than a transport-led new terminal next to St Pancras/ KingsX, is the wrong solution, which will cement for generations to come the inconvenient lack of direct interchange with the local, regional, national and international rail services at StP/KX, for this island's biggest swathe of population including Brum.

Maybe, but a development-led rebuilt Euston on the same unsatisfactory site, rather than a transport-led new terminal next to St Pancras/ KingsX, is the wrong solution, which will cement for generations to come the inconvenient lack of direct interchange with the local, regional, national and international rail services at StP/KX, for this island's biggest swathe of population including Brum.

:applause: Spot on! Well said.

I think so, but you should see the mass opposition, ranging from sneers to outrght hostility, when I put the same point a while back on whichever thread it was - can't remember, High Speed 2, CTRL...?

I think so, but you should see the mass opposition, ranging from sneers to outrght hostility, when I put the same point a while back on whichever thread it was - can't remember, High Speed 2, CTRL...?

Why am I not surprised? :ohno:

No doubt dominated by the London Lobby that think the rest of us should be kept out of Europe....:bash:

:applause: Spot on! Well said.

Well if you think thats what im implying then smell the coffee.
I was discussing aesthetics, maybe I should have been more clear.

In terms of transport I couldnt agree more with you Chris V.

And has no-one read the Guardian article. Sounds promising but also worrying in terms of what the context going to be for future rail and public transport growth.

Dare I ask what happens if the deadline is missed?
I think Martin posted it somewhere.

I posted it on main thread Simon:

It seems ive found the explanation to New Street document in a document they uploaded today. Nothing like putting the two together.

http://80.86.36.120/vault/XDDocStore_6/0213439_Report%20back%20New%20Street%20Station%20C0506606OUT.pdf
PLANNING COMMITTEE 26-04-2007 C/05066/06/OUT

"I can confirm that the DCLG do not wish to intervene in the determination of the application."

"The Section 106 agreement is due to be completed on 30th April 2007. At this stage, due to on-going discussions between the applicant and Legal Services, it is not expected that a suitable agreement will be reached within this time. As a result, I would request a further extension of time for a period of one month, to enable the S106 to be completed."

"RECOMMENDATION
1.That consideration of application no. C/05066/06/OUT be deferred pending the completion of a suitable agreement under S106 of the TCPA to secure:
a) Affordable Housing - a minimum of 10% of the dwelling approved through the Reserved Matters (with 3 1/2% social rented, 3 1/2% shared ownership and 1 1/2% intermediate rent, all with preferred RSL, and 1 1/2% low cost resale covenant, such provision to be increased proportionately to any increase in overall provision).
b) Public Open Space/Public Realm - for enhancement around and through the site, including the new public squares to an agreed specification and to secure 24 hour access through the unpaid concourse area and around the station.
c) Public Art.
d )Contribution to provisions of Shopmobility.
e) Provision of public conveniences.
f) Provision of multi-faith prayer rooms
g) Provision of CCTV
h) Commitment to local training and Employment Initiatives
i) Commitment to parking study prior to development of the two towers, to provide appropriate parking spaces, including a parking management plan, relating to the utilising of existing parking spaces and the making good of any shortfall in provision, together with any other appropriate measures.
j) Provision of/contribution to signage, way finding and variable message systems."

"2.In the event of the above obligation not being completed to the satisfaction of the LPA by 31st May 2007, planning permission shall be REFUSED for the following reason;
"In the absence of a suitable planning obligation to secure the provision of affordable housing, and contributions to transportation objectives, enhancement of public realm and open space, public art and public facilities,
and required highway works, the proposed development conflicts with paragraph 6.30 of the UDP (2005).
3.That no objection be raised to the stopping up of parts of the surrounding highways (including Stephenson Street, Navigation Street, Station Street and Smallbrook Queensway, and including pedestrian routes where necessary) and that the DCLG be requested to make an Order in accordance with the provisions of Section 247 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990."

Not sure if this has already been posted, but the New Street Station website has finally been updated, reNew Street (http://www.renewstreet.co.uk/)

And the title page gets the blahblah award for most deludedly optimistic statement of 2007. - especially with that new render! ;)

"A station that passengers deserve"

I dont know how to read that. Your all crap so here's a crap station. Birmingham's shit so here's a shit station.

Not the best phrase.

"A station that passengers deserve"

I dont know how to read that. Your all crap so here's a crap station. Birmingham's shit so here's a shit station.

Not the best phrase.


It was the "A landmark the city can be proud of" statement that I was referring to. I think the inside of it will be a massive improvment. Just that phrase hanging above an enormous white slab with the old BR logo on it. Deluded isn't the word.

Any news on the planning app does anyone know? I thought it had to be in today?

"A station that passengers deserve"

I dont know how to read that. Your all crap so here's a crap station. Birmingham's shit so here's a shit station.

Not the best phrase.

Not the best phrase, without you're a slippery politician or Whitehall tangerine, when it's perfect for your purposes.

This is quite an interesting statement, from the FAQ section of ReNew Street...

Q. Are you making provision to safeguard land for future rail schemes (to ensure there is sufficient capacity on the network)?

A. It is very important that we plan for the future. Our plans are compatible with measures to provide longer and more frequent trains between London and Birmingham and we are committed to working with the Government should any future decision be taken on an intercity High Speed Line. Birmingham City Council are presently protecting an area of land that would allow for two extra tracks to run from Proof House junction on the north side of the existing track into a terminal platform beneath New Street Station and Moor Street Station.



I thought they'd abandonned that idea on cost?

Ha ha ha - what laughable crap! :lol:

Anyone notice that the towers in the background appear to have shrunk too...... quelle surprise!!

Q. Are you making provision to safeguard land for future rail schemes (to ensure there is sufficient capacity on the network)?

A. It is very important that we plan for the future. Our plans are compatible with measures to provide longer and more frequent trains between London and Birmingham and we are committed to working with the Government should any future decision be taken on an intercity High Speed Line. Birmingham City Council are presently protecting an area of land that would allow for two extra tracks to run from Proof House junction on the north side of the existing track into a terminal platform beneath New Street Station and Moor Street Station.



^^
That's just a very clever ruse to make us all harbour a bit of optimism for the future.

I reckon the timescale in question here is in the region of 150+ years. ;)

Don't get your hopes up folks - after all, we know all too well how everybody involved with the project has an overwhelming propensity for bullshit at the highest level. I mean - just ONE terminal platform? Is that it? That statement is full of holes and we all know it! Two words to them: piss off!

ReNew Street hasn't been updated for years, has it?

Yeah - it's circa 2002! :yes:

ReNew Street hasn't been updated for years, has it?

25th May 07 was the last time that version of the site was updated.

five hundred thousand pounds for:

http://www.renewstreet.co.uk/themes/renewstreet/images/gallery/large/image10.jpg

sigh...

^even worse, its £500 MILLION for that!

Bugger, forgot the second "thousand"!

You notice how the place is lit up by absolutely nothing? There are no lights in there and there certainly isn't any natural light!

Is it much different from the loathsome existing? - it's a good while since I was in there.

^^ I did start a second new street thread here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=465286) with the plans for the interior on the first page.

I agree, the outside is terrible, and merely a reclad. But, as you can see the interior, especially the concourse level is HUGE. Taking up pretty much all of that level of the building.

All platforms will have several escalators going up and down to improve passenger flow, and each platform will have at least one lift.

Not much they can do with the platform levels, but existing waiting rooms and other platform clutter, like the fire doors at the bottom of the stairwells will be ripped out and the lighting improved.

Seems fairly obvious to me that ripping the thing down and rebuilding from scratch has been deemed prohibitively expensive. So this is what we're getting, and I think the interior plans are excellent under the circumstances.

The only way to extend actual train capacity is to go down, which it seems they are looking at doing, because the 4 track wide eastern approach is hemmed in on both sides.

If they build another station before doing BNS, then BNS will stay as it is.

I think the council and the parties involved in supporting this are playing quite a clever political game here to get the 'holders of the purse strings' to cough up.

They probably know that the BNS redevelopment on it's own will not be enough, and are making sure the ugliest and busiest thing is done first. Can you imagine Brum going to London and asking for, say £2BN to re-do New St? didn't think so! Unfortunately, we are not London, and we have to be quite clever about getting the funding we need.

Other things will follow. Like tunnels under BNS and the potential expansion of Moor St. and Snow Hill which has already been mentioned.

The Guardian news sounds reassuring, and the fact that NR are looking for a lead consultant to take the design forward and oversee construction means they must be confident (press release on renewstreet website).

I see what Martin means about the towers looking lower, but I think that will just be the artist as that is out of the hands of NR now.

The image on the homepage looks the best yet of the proposed station, but I still think it needs a complete redesign externally :yes:

Whats happened to the towers? If thats a gateway then fuck me! Wont even be seen on the skyline soon enough. Cop out part 2.

What's the problem? The towers are NOT part of the station so there's no point in getting your knickers in a twist.

I agree, and the fact that we got two at the same time is quite an achievement IMO. I did comment on the planning app that the towers were not really of a good quality design and size to sufficiently hold the tag of a 'iconic'.

But:

Gateway=train station/Coach station/Bus stop

Iconic=a new building

landmark=a new building over 2 floors high

Fine :tongue: ;)

I do wish these marketing people would shut the fuck up with this 'Iconic' 'World Class' 'Landmark' Bullshit.

Birmingham New Street exisits for two reasons only. The primary reason is to allow people to get on and off trains. The secondary reason is to allow people to have a coffee/shit/piss/burger king, buy stuff for the trip, or basically pass time while waiting for a train.

The redesign will allow those two things to happen more efficiently, in a better environment - that's all it will do - that's all most people expectfrom a railway station!

It's not iconic, it certainly ain't world class, and it is a landmark by default due to the fact that it is a railway station.

buy stuff for the trip.

At the prices they charge? :nuts:

At the prices they charge? :nuts:

:lol: You'd be amazed. The WHSmith in New Street Station takes more money than the one on Union Street does!

Bio, its part of the redevelopment of New Street - I could'nt give a flyinf fuck about the station apart from the outside, its one of the easiest and most efficient within the UK it just looks messy. However, I want that brown turd stephenson to fuck right off and be replaced with some international class office towers which will entice more money inton the area. Infact NSS IMO is an over used word in Birmingham. I would'nt mind the a small revamp like the hawthorns station in brum but other then that I have no real overjoy for this project. Transport has never been my thing and im not going to pretend it is. The towers and public realm however is the important part of this project to me. Thats why I try and keep out fo this thread, If its shit then others with much more valid feelings on this project then mine will let me know, other then that, Let them get on and do thier job, they obviously have more of an idea then us on here. At the moment NS works, just needs a bigger capacity and a good revamp!

If anyone's wondering what an "iconic" or "landmark" building looks like, take a look at the "Gallery" page on the Renew Street site:
http://www.renewstreet.co.uk/the_project/gallery

On the left is an iconic building. Yes, it's the Selfridges building. Ironically, showing the picture of Selfridges alongside their thumbnails of the new station just goes to what is wrong with the design.