http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/168/168812_metrolink_the_truth.html

Metrolink: The truth
David Ottewell


THE MANCHESTER Evening News can today unveil a dossier of secret documents that reveals the truth about the Metrolink extension.

Using Freedom of Information laws, we have obtained private letters and reports casting new light on the government's decision to axe the Big Bang - before massive public pressure forced them to put the money back on the table.

The M.E.N. can reveal:

The Department for Transport (DfT) was considering axing the Metrolink extension SIX MONTHS before it finally ditched the scheme.

Labour MPs privately warned Transport Secretary Alistair Darling of a "potentially disastrous" political fall-out in the run-up to the General Election.

Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive (GMPTE) was proposing a cut-price scheme, delaying the line to the airport until private funding could be found.

Manchester's top councillor wrote to MPs to say senior civil servants had revealed the government wanted to stop investing in trams altogether - something the DfT has never admitted.

Alistair Darling announced in July last year that £520m for new Metrolink lines was being withdrawn over fears that costs were spiralling. The decision was greeted with shock and outrage on all sides.

Homeowners and public bodies had in the previous few months spent millions of pounds on property and infrastructure along the three proposed routes - to the airport, Ashton and Oldham-Rochdale - on the understanding they were still going ahead.

Details

But now the M.E.N. can disclose details of two reports sent to Mr Darling from the civil servant in charge of local transport, calling into question the future of Metrolink.

The first was sent as early as January 7 last year, asking the Transport Secretary what to do about the extension "in the light of further cost increases since it was approved for funding in December 2002."

The timing is described as "pressing". The second, from March 8, again asks Mr Darling "whether to approve all or part" of the Big Bang, which was the name given to the plan to build lines to Ashton, Oldham-Rochdale and south Manchester in one contract.

In both cases the DfT has decided to censor the civil servant's recommendation before releasing the documents to the M.E.N. But on February 17, the same mandarin wrote to then transport minister Tony McNulty ahead of a meeting he was having with Greater Manchester MPs.

"Our current public position is that we are reconsidering the scheme in the light of the major cost increase," he wrote.

The DfT continued to insist last night no final decision was taken until just before Mr Darling's announcement.

A spokeswoman said: "Considersation was given to the future of the scheme throughout, in particular whether it could be delivered on budget.

"When it became clear the costs had spiralled, we had to take the difficult decision to revoke approval.

"The decision was taken when it was announced in July."

The two reports sent to Mr Darling also make clear the Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive was no longer planning to use the £520m to cover the cost of all three lines.

"The promoters' current proposals are for the Oldham-Rochdale line, the Ashton line plus the East Didsbury spur," said the March document.

Other papers in the dossier show how local MPs feared anger at the announcement could cost them their seats.

Decision

Eccles' MP Ian Stewart wrote to Mr Darling on August 8 on behalf of all Greater Manchester MPs, saying the reaction had been "possibly the most hostile reaction to a government decision which we have witnessed during our political careers".

He said: "The decision should, in our view, be the subject of urgent economic review if it is not to have potentially disastrous implications economically and politically."

There are also documents suggesting government officials were rethinking the future of trams nationwide - a charge repeatedly denied by the DfT.

A private letter from Manchester city council leader Richard Leese to all Greater Manchester's Labour MPs said: "We firmly believe, and senior civil servants have corroborated this, that there is a serious intention to marginalise light rail as a future investment option on the grounds of value for money."

Many papers - including minutes of meetings between senior politicians and ministers' letters - have been withheld because the DfT believes releasing them could "seriously impact on the policy-making process". The £520m funding for Metrolink was eventually put back on the table after a massive campaign, led by the M.E.N.

More than 40,000 people signed a petition we took to Downing Street, while thousands more gathered for a series of public protests. The GMPTE is working through proposals aimed at cutting the cost for all three lines, which rose to above £800m. Director general Chris Mulligan admitted last night that GMPTE had offered to go ahead with only two of the main lines, plus a spur to East Didsbury.

But he said that did not mean the airport line had been completely scrapped, just that it would be delayed until private funding could be arranged.

He said: "The DfT requested that we present them with several options. At the time, the passenger transport authority's preferred option was to proceed with the Oldham and Rochdale, Ashton under Lyne and East Didsbury lines. There were clear affordability issues with the South Manchester line which needed to be addressed - and which now have been.

"The South Manchester line is now the best performing of the full package. There was never any intention to drop the extension to Manchester Airport.

"This line was to be included in the Phase 3 contract.

"We intended to put together a funding package in partnership with third parties, including the airport."

The M.E.N. will be appealing over the DfT's decision to withhold parts or all of key documents.

"the government wanted to stop investing in trams altogether"

this is gotta be joke, no investment in rail, motorways,trams, a fucking disgrace, how do they expect people to go to work

pirlo - it also shows how much effort the local politicians and media have been to to get as far 'back on track' as they have.

Note - 2 stories in the MEN again today pro tram, the amount of pressure that has built up in Manchester in the last 13months to get this going again is amazing, and I reckon the reason for the £102m guarenteed for upgrades, £520m promised towards the original phase 3 stuff and the specific mention of Metrolink in the labour manifesto.

I agree Metrolink,

it's encouraging to see the internal political pressure within the Labour party over this.

I think the Manchester Evening News has played a blinder as well, as have the local councils of Manchester and the 40,000 who have signed the signatures.

If the government thought they could get away with this they would have done.

How is it that the department for transport is so devoid of knowledge on transport issues? Trams are quite cheap, popular, quick-ish to install and do the job required. Alistair Darling is particularly incompetent. What is their plan for transport exactly????

Taken from http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2005-07-20.12745.h&s=speaker%3A10153#g12745.r0

Alan Duncan (Rutland & Melton, Con) Hansard source

To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will list the light rail schemes which have commenced construction since 1997.

Alistair Darling (Secretary of State, Department for Transport) Hansard source

The following light rail schemes have commenced construction since 1997:

Manchester Metrolink Phase II (to Eccles), 1997.

Tyne and Wear Metro Sunderland extension, 2000.

Nottingham Express Transit , 2000.

Docklands Light Railway extension to London City Airport , 2002.

Docklands Light Railway extension to Woolwich Arsenal, 2005.

Some advanced works have also been undertaken since 1997 for the following proposed schemes: Manchester Metrolink Phase III extensions; Merseytram; Leeds Supertram.

http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/NwOldCivCntrMetroBnr4924.jpg

For those who don't visit the Manchester threads often, but have an interest in local public transport, it appears government have agreed funding for Metrolink Phase 3.

:D :D

Great News!!! :)

This gives me some hope that the government will agree funding for Netphase Two.

Lets hope so.

We all know Trams would attract more local businesses and they can help expand the size of the city centre, population in particular. This is so much great news for Manchester.

:banana:

For those who aren't familiar with Phase 3 - have a look at this...

http://www.gmpte.com/pdfmaps/met_network.pdf

It's a huge project, we'll end up with in the region of 100 stops - about half that of the London underground, and around 90 odd trams.

The system is expected to carry between 40m and 50m people a year, taking between 10m and 15m car journeys off the roads of Greater Manchester annually.

It's expected to add over £1bn to the local GDP.

MEN headline on Monday - "We're Back on Track" guarenteed.

If this is true, I could cry, I really could. I don't even live in Manchester but from the bottom of my heart, I so hope Manchester gets these extensions.

Zim - I'm feeling the same.

I'm 99.999% sure this is true, but given all the crap that we've had in years gone by, until I get the press release from the DfT I won't be 100% happy.

More government handouts for those dastardly Mancs, raping the country, rabble rabble rabble and so on.

arf :D

Here's the letting confirming the news. Looks slightly scaled down from the map (the Rochdale line now only goes to Oldham). You also have to pray it doesn't start to go over budget as the government will refuse to cough up the extra.

Sheffield Supertram should get a verdict on funding for its extensions any day (due end of March). They are also seriously scaled down. If you search for the Manchester "Local Transport Plan 2" it should give you a better idea of what exactly has been approved.

Forgot the link:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_foi/documents/page/dft_foi_611181.pdf

That leter is dated 2002 - not quite.

Vertigo - Greater Manchester local transport plan 2006-2011 (final version) is not out yet - it's at the printers.

Should be on the web site next week.

With regards trimming of lines, we lost 3 stops on part of the Wythenshawe loop (near the hospital), as far as we know, they are th only trimming to save money.

Given the PTE would have to vote to chop any further sections of the lines, and they haven't, I think we can safely say the proposed phase 3 extensions are all on that map minus the 3 stations on the loop near Wythenshawe Hospital.

.... http://www.weforums.com/forums/images/smilies/argh.gif

Insignia - half my head thinks that.

However, I understand that the BBC DID carry this story (after 12noon when April's fools day jokes are no longer valid).

and more importantly, I've spoken to someone (who I cannot name) who said he knew this was the case (i.e. the go ahead), however, was surprised it was public knowledge - he suspects that the news has been leaked - this is why no offical announcement, which may well follow next week.

Bollocks. I just searched for stuff put on the website in the last month and didn't bother about reading dates.

That leter is dated 2002 - not quite.

And this thread was started on April the First :)

Think that is simply a co-incedence of fate though Charlie - I think someone has leaked this inof to the BBC to force the DfT to go public.

We'll see next week no doubt, but I'll more than 99% sure this is true.

Dear Kurt

The story is true, of course. Roger Jones from the Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Authority gave an interview and confirmed the details. However, an official announcement by the Government will not be made until after the May local elections. This may explain why you can't find more on this development on the internet just yet.

I hope that helps to answer your question.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kurt Stephens [mailto:kurtlstephens@gmail.com]
Sent: 02 April 2006 18:01
To: Manchester NorthWest Tonight
Subject: 5:05pm Saturday broadcast


Hi,



I understand on the 5:05pm broadcast on Saturday evening there was an article about Metrolink Phase 3, saying that the government have given the go ahead, and construction will start in 2008.



There appears to be no further information on this anywhere on the internet – could you confirm the story to be true, (i.e. not a poor April fools joke), and if so, is there any reason for the BBC News web site not being updated to carry this very important story for the whole Manchester region.



Many thanks



Kurt Stephens


http://www.bbc.co.uk/

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically
stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the
BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.

Good work Metrolink.

My only concern is why hold back until after the local elections. I would be shouting from the roof tops if I was a Labour party official. :dunno:

From the DfT...


Mr Stephen



In response to your e-mail I would like to begin by making clear that no decision has been taken on the Phase 3 extensions project.



We are in constructive discussions with Manchester about the Metrolink extensions and are working closely together to resolve the

outstanding issues in relation to the elements of the package that would be part-funded by the Government.

T hose discussions are underway now.



All the best



******





******

Light Rail Branch
Regional and Local Major Projects Division
Department for Transport
Zone 3/18
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London SW1P 4DR

Good news, is the whole thing going to be funded? With crossrail (which never looks like the government will come up with the funding) the government has already taken the axe to one part of it.

Having a look at the map, if all the extensions are built, won't the centra section become congested?

Having a look at the map, if all the extensions are built, won't the centra section become congested?

I was thinking that, are they going to build any extra tracks in the city centre as part of phase 3?

Does anybody know if there is any possiblity of the privately funded Trafford centre extension ever being built.

No extra tracks required in the city centre - with all the extensions there will still be more than a 1min headway in wach direction - from memory the city centre could cope with a 40 second headway.

At present Piccadilly Train station and crossing London Road just outside the station is the bottleneck, this should be resolved by phase 3.

With regards the Trafford Centre - all has gone very quiet on this recently, and is very far from certain.

It would be the last line built if at all - there is great opposition from Manchester city council towards this line being built since they believe it will attract shoppers away from central Manchester and towards the Trafford Centre.

Personally, I think after the other lines have been built - around 2012-2014 then Peel Holdings (owner of the TC) will come up with the money - at present the biggest hinderence to growth of the TC is congestion around the place, they can only realistically grow if they improve public transport.

It's also worth noting Peel have been buying up lots of land near the proposed TC route - the belief is they are going to make shops and offices near to the new stations that they'd build.

It would be the first truly rail privately funded public transport in the country for ages and ages if if actually gets built to the best of my knowledge.

With regards funding that bit is unclear at the moment, however, as we saw with Liverpool, unless the DfT are 100% sure of the finances, and happy the project will be completed they would not give the go ahead.

Like all things to do with DfT I wouldn't count your chickens until they are literally building all 3 lines.

If the DfT cancelled the project because it was running over budget, then presumably the councils have made cuts, or the DfT have suggested how to get the budget to what they are willing to pay.

I am just suspicious of the DfT, so sorry if i might be being overly negative, but experience with these projects teaches scepticism is warranted.

Like Zim says why aren't they shouting this from the rooftops in time for the local elections? Unless there is bad news mixed in with the good.

I understand your sceptisim - anbd after so many false dawns I think you are probably right to be so.

However, given the large number of sources of positive news the last couple of weeks, I think we are definately heading the the right direction - there was no way GMPTE would let this go, and I think they're on the verge of pulling off a remarkable victory for the region.

Also, worth noting that the GMPTE have now spent getting on for £300m on 'advanced works', it's almost certainly now the cheapest option to build trams than go for any other form of transport i.e. buses.

If you know what you're looking for, you can see bits of phase 3 in place already.

Both DfT and GMPTE (GM being mostly Labour) would be seen to have wasted loads of money, and pissed off many many people (demand for phase 3 in Manchester is a lot higher than you'd imagine if you aren't from the area), to be honest, the longer things go and the more the GMPTE spend on Phase 3, the more sense it makes to continue and finish off the work.

I hope as well though, the government will announce the extension of the mayor to other conurbations. I know that might annoy some of the councils, (maybe Trafford the most) but it will really change the tempo of change in Greater Manchester.

Metrolink - Even though it appears congestion will still not be an issue on the central section of the system it does still worry me. When you think about the number of collisions with trams, buses and cars around Mosley Street/Picc Gardens in recent months (of which there have been a few) does it not worry you that with more trams the possibility of the network running to a standstill will rise? In this case does it not make sense to provide an alternative route for the street running section? A second route following Deansgate to Victoria would give some flexibility in case of problems and aid the development of the new business districts in the West of the city centre.

Obviously this isn't going to happen anyime soon, but I just wondered why this potential issue has never come up? I'm really only wingeing because I had to run from Salford to St Peters in the rain the other day to catch the last tram and i nearly had a heart attack.

won't this hold up car traffic in central manchester?

Won't what hold up car traffic?

If the frequency of trams going through the central section increases, then presumably traffic lights and all will need to be resequenced?

Price - not really, Manchester is not London when it comes to congestion by a very long way.

All this stuff has been considered in great depth when putting the plans together.

I haven't got time today, but hopefully I dig some stuff out tomorrow.

Advanced works don't guarentee completion unfortunately. Leeds spent a fortune buying up land before government cancelled theirs. I don't think this government cares about making councils look stupid (even their own).

Vertighost - I agree, the advanced works are just a small part of a much much bigger picture.

The initial public outcry, then GMPTE working very very hard to meet all the DfT demands appears to have paid off.

Roll on May for an official announcement.

The only way to increase frequency on a single double track section through the centre is to put these things
http://www.urbanrail.net/as/burs/bursa2.jpg
here
http://www.urbanrail.net/as/burs/bursa1.jpg
then you can have, two car, 4 car, 6 car and 8 car trains.

For those who don't visit the Manchester threads often, but have an interest in local public transport, it appears government have agreed funding for Metrolink Phase 3.

:D :D

Seriously Metrolink, when you say they've agreed funding for Phase 3, do you mean they're going to release the original £520m promised? (or however much it was)

I haven't read anything in the media yet (it's not yet Tuesday though)

If true, it's only been a matter of time. Doing anything less would seriously damage the Labour vote in this Labour heartland, and the government know this only too well. The blundering, incompetent and reactionary twats that they're proving to be.

Jonge - see the two emails I've posted from the BBC and the DfT - the official announcement will come in May, after the local elections.

It appears that the GMPTA have been told they can start spending the £520m on the trams (they've already spent about £300m!!!), and the rest will come through the TiF.

There is no way the government would give the go ahead to spend the £520m if they were not certain that the GMPTE would have enough monwy to complete - I think we'll get the full details in May.

Isaac - move on, do you have to try and turn EVERY tram thread into your obsession about an underground - please create a seperate thread if you want to discuss (yet again) the merits of a Manchester underground.

For those who hadn't relaised - the third (currently unused) platform on Cornbrook will be the terminus of trams crossing the city centre from Ashton and Rochdale - as Piccadilly is for Eccles and some Alty services.

Isaac - move on, do you have to try and turn EVERY tram thread into your obsession about an underground - please create a seperate thread if you want to discuss (yet again) the merits of a Manchester underground.


Look at the picture, it's a tram. Very similar to the one in Manchester.

You cannot have all the new lines feeding into one street running section through the city. One crash will paralyse the system.

Either sink the line, or build in some extra street sections for emergency use.

I also do it because it winds you up. :)

I also do it because it winds you up. :)

Don't wind metrolink up, he is the only one that can understand and translate all the different confused signals and messages that are currently floating around the different transport bodies.

I would be lost without him.

The one's that have so far produced nothing. I'll only believe it when I see a tram waiting outside Ashton bus station on the spot where they knocked down some perfectly good flats to build the station.

Isaac - this thread is about the reality of what is going on in Manchester, whether you agree or not an underground is not in these proposals, in fact, no new tracks between GMEX, Piccadilly and Cornbrook (apart from replacing the worn out ones) is on the table here.

Could we please try and keep this thread on topic, and talk about the reality, it's ONLY 57 days until the end of May and 30 days until the local elections.

If Roger Jones is wrong (and I am wrong to believe him) then we'll know in the next 57 days, however, if I'm right then we will be seeing the largest transport infrastructure investment in any one city outside London for many many years - this is a huge project, ideally I'd like this thread to talk about THAT project, and not one off your fantasies.

Isaac - if you have a look at www.lrta.org/Manchester and have a read of the proposed new routes, you'll see that at some points the trams do make use of tunnels - for example to cross into the inner ring road into Ancoats I think the trams dive under the road - similarly there is a tunnel about 500m long in Oldham to get under obstacles that are in the way.

However, at no point are any of the stations undergorund.

My last comment on underground in this thread.

If Roger Jones is wrong (and I am wrong to believe him) then we'll know in the next 57 days, however, if I'm right then we will be seeing the largest transport infrastructure investment in any one city outside London for many many years - this is a huge project, ideally I'd like this thread to talk about THAT project, and not one off your fantasies.

:yes:

The topic is that Metrolink phase 3 is go!!

Nowhere outside this thread does it actually say this.

Cheers for you answer Metrolink.

You cannot have all the new lines feeding into one street running section through the city. One crash will paralyse the system.

The system is paralysed regularly for one reason or another. But obviously this isn't the place to discuss whether the system is right or not in this respect. The important point right now, is actually getting the thing up-and-running - it'll make an enormous difference to the way we cross the city, and when one Friday afternoon, the whole system fucks up because of an incident on Mosley St, questions will start to be asked.

If it proves untenable, then I reckon terminating every line at an interchange at Picc bus station would be a better proposition.

The topic is that Metrolink phase 3 is go!!

Nowhere outside this thread does it actually say this.

The topic is that Metrolink phase 3 is go!!

Nowhere outside this thread does it actually say this.

change the bloody record and Stop being such a pain in the arse.

Metrolink has produced emails and someone else saw it on the BBC news.

In response to your e-mail I would like to begin by making clear that no decision has been taken on the Phase 3 extensions project.


You mean this E mail

Zim - YHPM

hmm the artical comes up even in google news search and is dated march 31st.. gotta be real
theres even another article about it from earlier in the month
article here (http://www.oldhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/210/210187_metrolink_looks_positive.html)

It still says no decision has been made yet.

Zim - YHPM

cheers Metrolink, I agree.

So what about Oxford Road then? Busiest bus corridor in Europe - that route is prime for a tram line or something!

So what about Oxford Road then? Busiest bus corridor in Europe - that route is prime for a tram line or something!

Busier than Oxford Street ? you're having me on.

Been discussed previously.

The route would be a nightmare. It would have to go down Upper Brook Street that runs parallel to Oxford Road / Wilmslow Road.

However, I'm not sure what benifits trams would bring, they wouldn't be able to run in segregated mode, and therefore would get caught up by the cars - there simply doesn't appear to be any space to put the trams out of the traffic.

Also, unlike many other countries in the world, since that route would apparently already be adequatley be served by buses, it would be very hard to justify (using the cost benifit calculations) in this country.

I agree with you though, in my ideal world I'd do something to create a lane in either direction down Upper Brook Street, then pass under the West Coast mainline up near Blockbusters (at the roundabouts) and then down the A34 to the airport - again, creating a specialised tram lane in the traffic as you often see around Europe.

But in this country not a chance.

As I say, in my world, as a bus route got busier it'd be converted to trolley bus, eventually to tram route, and in exceptional circumstances to underground.

In Manchester we've plenty of routes that should (in my world) be bus routes, a few which would be trolley bus routes (Leigh to Manchester for example) and about 10 that would justify a tram route - including the Oxford Road route.

Unfortunately this would take huge amounts of very long term planning - something that transport and this country don't do.

Excellent news!


You cannot have all the new lines feeding into one street running section through the city. One crash will paralyse the system.

what do you think happens when a subway train encounters problems? - Either the trains behind go via a crossover (like tram systems including the metrolinnk have) or the service is suspended at but not to and from the affected area... duh.

The fact that no new city centre expansion will be happening is a shame. A loop 'circle line' around the city centre taking in all the additional traffic (i.e. high frequency) would do wonders for those getting around the city itself. The centre of Manchester really lacks transport to get actually get around (non locals don't like to use buses they are not familiar with, with rail you can't go wrong!).

sarf - I agree.

Ideally at some point in time (maybe if / when we get city region status???) we'll have the freedom to develop such infrastructure.

I'd like more routes through town, however, in the current environment we're going to do exceptionally well, if as appears, phase 3 proceeds.

I cannot see major investment from Whitehall in Manchester for quite some time after this.

Excellent news!




what do you think happens when a subway train encounters problems? - Either the trains behind go via a crossover (like tram systems including the metrolinnk have) or the service is suspended at but not to and from the affected area... duh.

The fact that no new city centre expansion will be happening is a shame. A loop 'circle line' around the city centre taking in all the additional traffic (i.e. high frequency) would do wonders for those getting around the city itself. The centre of Manchester really lacks transport to get actually get around (non locals don't like to use buses they are not familiar with, with rail you can't go wrong!).

only affects one line, mine usually the Northern Line.

Not the whole system.

The fact that no new city centre expansion will be happening is a shame. A loop 'circle line' around the city centre taking in all the additional traffic (i.e. high frequency) would do wonders for those getting around the city itself. The centre of Manchester really lacks transport to get actually get around (non locals don't like to use buses they are not familiar with, with rail you can't go wrong!).

Precisely, darnsarflad, Manchester's possibly the only large city I've been to where it's not been particularly easy to move around on public transport.

With de-regulated buses evrywhere outside London, even us locals don't understand how to use buses. Bit of a last resort up here.

About buses; what's so hard about using them? They're just the same as trains and trams in terms of how to use them...

The trouble with buses is that you have one foot in the gutter when you travel on them.

About buses; what's so hard about using them? They're just the same as trains and trams in terms of how to use them...
.... buses dont travel as fast as trams and also trams are cleaner.

Also, with trams, people see the tracks and know that they are near a stop that will get them where they want to be.

For people who don't know where they are going they simply need to find the tracks then walk to the next stop - watch Manchester city centre when United are at home, many of the out of towners work out very easily how to get to Old Trafford by tram - it's simply, practically none of them get the bus, even though there is more capacity to OT on the buses. Trams give people a sense of confidence, the tracks a permenant and people trust them, people simply don't trust buses.

only affects one line, mine usually the Northern Line.

Not the whole system.

Poor example. The Northern Should be relabelled as at least 2 distinct lines anyway and what happens when a train goes down on say the Metropolitian line in the central section? : The Circle and Hammersmith & City go tits up. Also people transfer and put pressure on other "good service" lines - this wouldn't happen on the Metrolink so infact tram problems cause less disruption overall to people's commute!

If a tits up event happens to a tram in the centre of manchester, respective outer sprawling lines will still be able to go to and from the centre just with no through service - and I'd bet the majority of traffic, like underground systems, is not through traffic anyway.

However an inner circle as opposed to a straight track would go a long way to alliviate any anticipated tram congestion and would still provide a high frequency service.

What's the news on integrating the service with buses and rail links?

Sarf - the integration of the existing system is seen as one of it's failings - supposedly the DfT are insisting on much better integration than previously.

GM Local Transport Plan 2006-11 (due out very soon) will provide details.

David Cameron will tomorrow arrive at Ladywell park and ride by helicopter and travel by tram along the Eccles line - it is thought at the time he will pledge his government would complete Metrolink in full!!!!

dear lord is there nothing the man won't do to get votes.

I thought it had been announced anyway that Metrolink will be built anyway. Isn't he a bit behind the times.

price - the official announcement it seems cannot be made until after the local elections - there is some sort of election law that forbids large announcements of this nature prior to an election.

I like his idea of flying in by helicopter - that'll be a low emissions helicopter no doubt.

i hope we can get to pidgeon Dave quickly enough as a rock climbing, adventure playground boy, who likes parties and parachuting!

Is this just so tory voters in trafford turn out?

Hay who cares, if it gets the Metro cause national publicity then great. Every bit of pressure on the Government to say yes can only be good.

but if he cared about the enviroment he wouldn't waste carbon.

Come on Zim, you aren't falling for his media spin are you?

.... buses dont travel as fast as trams and also trams are cleaner.

Yeah but I mean its just as easy to use a bus isn't it? You wait for the right bus, get on the bus and sit down- just like a tram or train; its not that hard is it?

Yeah but I mean its just as easy to use a bus isn't it? You wait for the right bus, get on the bus and sit down- just like a tram or train; its not that hard is it?

Alot of people wouldn't be seen dead in a bus (including me) but have no problems riding a tram. Buses are just dirty nasty smelly things where as Light Rail oozes class.

but if he cared about the enviroment he wouldn't waste carbon.

Come on Zim, you aren't falling for his media spin are you?

No, but the issue is bigger for me than the politics. If he will get the battle of the extensions mentioned (something which is largely ignored in the national media) than that can only be a good thing.

Also, with trams, people see the tracks and know that they are near a stop that will get them where they want to be.

For people who don't know where they are going they simply need to find the tracks then walk to the next stop - watch Manchester city centre when United are at home, many of the out of towners work out very easily how to get to Old Trafford by tram - it's simply, practically none of them get the bus, even though there is more capacity to OT on the buses. Trams give people a sense of confidence, the tracks a permenant and people trust them, people simply don't trust buses.

I agree!

:okay: Im using this for backing NET... The well established Transit system (In the Future!).

About buses; what's so hard about using them? They're just the same as trains and trams in terms of how to use them...

No they're not!!! You know where trains and trams are going to go because they don't have much option, but I've lost track of the number of times a bus has ended up not going where I expected it to!

No they're not!!! You know where trains and trams are going to go because they don't have much option, but I've lost track of the number of times a bus has ended up not going where I expected it to!

Learn to read, buses have a number on the front. That's the route, they also have some writing on the front, that's the destination. Sometimes they'll have a bit more writing on the front or the side. Those are the intermediate stops.

Learn to read, buses have a number on the front. That's the route, they also have some writing on the front, that's the destination. Sometimes they'll have a bit more writing on the front or the side. Those are the intermediate stops.

Charlie P is right.

It's bus anarchy out there, they might have the numbers on but often you need to be a mathematician to work out where they are going. Compare that to the simple yet reasuring LCD sign system seen at tram stops in places like Croydon and Nottingham.

Yeah, busses are just more complicated and less apealing, you know where you stand with a good tram line!

Am I the only one who doesn't want to take a bus in an unfamiliar city because I don't know where it will go? It may have an ultimate destination, but if I want to go somewhere between A and B, how will I know I'm there? How will I know that stop F is better than stop G?

With a tram/train/metro, you know where the stops are, and can plan accordingly. There's a reassuring certainty about them.

Am I the only one who doesn't want to take a bus in an unfamiliar city because I don't know where it will go? It may have an ultimate destination, but if I want to go somewhere between A and B, how will I know I'm there? How will I know that stop F is better than stop G?

With a tram/train/metro, you know where the stops are, and can plan accordingly. There's a reassuring certainty about them.
Bus maps here also have all the stops on there... but that seems to vary per city. A good bus stop should have a bus map and a time table with the names of all the stops of that particular line obviously.

You were obviously all driven to school as children. I despair :cry:

There's also the issue that pretty much every tube station, and I suspect tram stop and train station has a big sign on it saying what station it is, and in the case of tube stations, what's nearby (eg 'Charing Cross from Trafalgar Sq', 'Russell Square for the British Museum' etc'). So, even if you're not 100% sure of when to get off you just have to keep an eye out of the window for station signs.

Bus stops rarely have that.

There is a table on http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmtran/378/37805.htm#a7

that was produced by independent consultants that compared the cost and benifit of buses and trams - from their analysis it is obvious more people will be attracted out of their cars onto the trams than buses.

Am I the only one who doesn't want to take a bus in an unfamiliar city because I don't know where it will go? It may have an ultimate destination, but if I want to go somewhere between A and B, how will I know I'm there? How will I know that stop F is better than stop G?

With a tram/train/metro, you know where the stops are, and can plan accordingly. There's a reassuring certainty about them.luckily, London, like many other cities will soon have displays saying what the next stop is. I say soon, it is being trialled at the moment and will come online once the new GPS system is fully up and running.

There's also the issue that pretty much every tube station, and I suspect tram stop and train station has a big sign on it saying what station it is, and in the case of tube stations, what's nearby (eg 'Charing Cross from Trafalgar Sq', 'Russell Square for the British Museum' etc'). So, even if you're not 100% sure of when to get off you just have to keep an eye out of the window for station signs.

Bus stops rarely have that.

Buses have windows, you can tell where you are by looking out of them.

Not everyone is familiar with the area though.

For example, people going to the Lowry know to get off the tram at Broadway or Harbour City - if you were on a bus and could not actually see the Lowry (as most buses there cannot) I'd suggest people would not know where to get off.

From conservatives.org.uk

Seems some of my information was not quite correct...

David Cameron has announced a new review of rapid transit systems, aimed at improving the quality of life in Britain's urban centres.

During an election campaign visit to Bury Metro Station, the Conservative Leader declared: "Transport is an issue that affects us all - whether it's getting our children to school, trying to get to work, or simply getting around during the day. I want us to help people who live in our cities get around quickly and easily."

And he has asked the Party's Cities Taskforce to examine ways in which tram, bus and rail systems can be enhanced to improve local transport facilities - while at the same time helping to protect the environment.

Mr Cameron said: "Over the last few weeks we've been showing how voting Conservative in the local elections on May 4th will give people a chance to change their local community for the better. We've shown that we've got new ideas on crime, education and housing. We've also shown that Conservative councils deliver services that are greener and cheaper than Labour or the Lib Dems.

"Transport is an issue that affects us all - whether it's getting our children to school, trying to get to work, or simply getting around during the day. I want us to help people who live in our cities get around quickly and easily. So I'm announcing a new direction for transport in our cities, including a major review of rapid transit systems by the Cities Taskforce. We have a shared responsibility to make our communities better places to live, and that includes making sure that local views are taken into account when transport policy is translated into action."

Mr Cameron has also asked the Party's Quality of Life Policy Group to look at how changes in transport policy can improve quality of life for everyone. "In particular I'm asking the group to look into the Government's Home Zones pilots - to help strike a balance between drivers, other road users and residents. This is already happening in Conservative councils like Lichfield where they have introduced a Community Transport Scheme to help people access social and educational activities," Mr Cameron said.

He added: "In Suffolk, the council's Green Travel Plan is improving facilities for sustainable transport. And in Conservative-led Bradford, a guided busway has reduced peak-time traffic and increased bus use. Conservative councils are leading the way. On May 4th people will have the opportunity to vote for a Conservative council for positive change in their area. Vote blue, Go Green."

Alot of people wouldn't be seen dead in a bus (including me) but have no problems riding a tram. Buses are just dirty nasty smelly things where as Light Rail oozes class.

You won't be seen dead in a bus but you'll happily ride a tram because it "oozes class" ? So your concerns about public transport are about aesthetics and the reflection on yourself but not practicallity? Did you think for a second that high demand on a bus route can give consideration in to alternative investment in transport along that route?

The trouble is - what you say is echoed around the country. People shun buses for all sorts of ill founded reasons and then you get a cycle of decline not to mention increased congestion, pollution and hesitatation about investing in to light rail schemes.

Buses have windows, you can tell where you are by looking out of them.

Furthermore, many bus shelters have the name written on them, either on the bus stop sign, the timetable or the shelter roof (on the side obviously)

Learn to read, buses have a number on the front. That's the route, they also have some writing on the front, that's the destination.

That's all well and good, but a lot of services have exceptions (usually written in tiny script on the bottom of a timetable somewhere in the bottom drawer of the depot manager) - I once jumped on a bus with the "right" number on the front in London to discover that it was the special one that terminating in a rather grim looking estate near Ealing rather than going all the way to Greenford. Not the nicest walk home! Worse was when they decided to route some buses a different way through the hospital near where I live - I stood at the bus stop, saw my bus coming along the main road towards me... then my jaw dropped as it turned off twenty metres before reaching me. Hate the bloody things.

That's all well and good, but a lot of services have exceptions (usually written in tiny script on the bottom of a timetable somewhere in the bottom drawer of the depot manager) - I once jumped on a bus with the "right" number on the front in London to discover that it was the special one that terminating in a rather grim looking estate near Ealing rather than going all the way to Greenford. Not the nicest walk home! Worse was when they decided to route some buses a different way through the hospital near where I live - I stood at the bus stop, saw my bus coming along the main road towards me... then my jaw dropped as it turned off twenty metres before reaching me. Hate the bloody things.

Loads of London buses dump you mid route, it's a pain, the controllers tells the driver to terminate and head back. Usually in times of heavy traffic. Unfortunately I cannot drive, I rely on the things.

I hate the buses. Never use them. Buses are for poor people.

I hate the buses. Never use them. Buses are for poor people.

They sure are. (Poor is code for black, always remember that when talking to a liberal)

is it?

They sure are. (Poor is code for black, always remember that when talking to a liberal)

What planet are you on.

I am a bus snob as are most car drivers, but that doesn't me I or them are racists.

I am happy to use trams and tubes, but not buses.

I don't care who gets on a tube, but I don't like buses!!!!

I use the bus I hate the scum who also use them.

Bloody poor people, If I was running things they'd be some changes, rumble-rumble, up against the wall mutter-mutter etc etc.

I have to get 4 buses each day, gurenteed at least one of those will have someone causing trouble, either a junkie lighting up or more often than that a group of girls egging each other on to cause a nuisance. I hate it.

Allegedly (given my last mistake about Cameron's visit I could be wrong) the Tories are prepared to back the following...

Manchester Metrolink Phase 3, Nottingham NET Phase 2, Birmingham MidMet,
Croydon Tramlink, Sheffield, Leeds, Merseyside, Portsmouth SHRT and London
Cross River Transit.

But NOT the West London proposals through Uxbridge.

Did they say how they would pay for it?

What parts of the current budget they woudl cut, or what taxes they would raise to pay for them?

Did they say how they would pay for it?

What parts of the current budget they woudl cut, or what taxes they would raise to pay for them?

Who cares, as long as Trams are a political issue, this will put more pressure on the Department of Transport to build these systems.

Re the Lib Dems, Simon Hughes recently launched the "Lib Dems say no tram" election campaign:

http://www.ealingtimes.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.733287.0.building_support.php

good, because no one actually wants the west london tram scheme.

I am against it because it would go down Oxford St. Oxford St doesn't need a tram, it needs to be pedestrianised

good, because no one actually wants the west london tram scheme.

I am against it because it would go down Oxford St. Oxford St doesn't need a tram, it needs to be pedestrianised

They don't want it because they are nimby's, but I'm sure would be happy to use it or have the benefit of increased house prices as was the case with the Trams in Nottingham.

Allegedly (given my last mistake about Cameron's visit I could be wrong) the Tories are prepared to back the following...

Manchester Metrolink Phase 3, Nottingham NET Phase 2, Birmingham MidMet,
Croydon Tramlink, Sheffield, Leeds, Merseyside, Portsmouth SHRT and London
Cross River Transit.

But NOT the West London proposals through Uxbridge.

Isn't it interesting.... The majority of residents in West London don't back the tram there either....

I thought it was the tories who proposed an underground system for Birmingham. It's a shame they won't back that instead.

Isn't it interesting.... The majority of residents in West London don't back the tram there either....

I thought it was the tories who proposed an underground system for Birmingham. It's a shame they won't back that instead.


The tories have really messed up in Birmingham. They put the light railway scheme on hold whilst they spent money on a feasability study for an underground. Only to be told what everyone knew before hand that it would be too expensive.

So 12 months later guess what - nothing. No trams no underground just alot of talk.

Did they say how they would pay for it?

What parts of the current budget they woudl cut, or what taxes they would raise to pay for them?

Considering the Government budget is in excess of £300 billion it would be easy to cut some fat from the budget. This government has launched lots of whiz bang iniatives that have not achieved anything. For example the anti-truancy programme that has cost £800 million and resulted in a rise in truancy, to name but one.

good, because no one actually wants the west london tram scheme.

I am against it because it would go down Oxford St. Oxford St doesn't need a tram, it needs to be pedestrianised
I thought it was planned to end in Sheperds Bush??? Ken once said he'd like it to go further, but that is real pie in the sky thinking right now.

As I understand it the residents are against it as a lot of traffic will be diverted down a few side roads DURING construction.

It is much more serious than that, if you download the plans for Ealing and Shepherds Bush you can see that because the Uxbridge Road is narrow in those places and there is also retail, they plan to close the road to traffic. In the case of Ealing diverting all traffic on to a parallel residential road, so not only do they lose their parking outside their house, their formerly quiet street will now have buses, cars and trucks diverted down it. At Shepherds Bush there is no parallel road, buses will still be allowed, but cars are expected to divert either north to the A40 or south to the Goldhawk road, via residential streets. The only way to assuage protestors is to either build expensive tunnels or accept mixed traffic running in these congested spots.

There was just a piece about the West London tram scheme on BBC London news. Basically loads of residents don't want it. I don't see the problem with a few demolitions and perhaps areas where the road is mix-used as this would be a good improvement to public transport in the area. David Cameron was also setting out his opposition to the scheme and seemingly the congestion charge :ohno:

Finally, a couple of months late, it seems we have finally got the money...

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ittle_bang.html


PLANS to expand the Metrolink tram system across Greater Manchester were finally expected to be given the go-ahead today.

It is believed Transport Secretary Douglas Alexander will give the green light for work on new routes connecting Manchester city centre with Rochdale rail station, Droylsden in Tameside and St Werburgh's Road in south Manchester.

The announcement should allow construction to start by 2008 and be completed by 2010.

However, the cash the government is expected to promise will not be enough to pay for the original "Big Bang" plan, which was due to take tram services into Rochdale town centre, to Ashton under Lyne in Tameside and through south Manchester, through Wythenshawe and on to Manchester Airport.

'Little Bang'

The scaled-down plan approved today - the "Little Bang" - is estimated to have a price tag of £820m. The shortfall between that figure and the £520m pledged by the government will be met by a loan of about £300m.

Westminster insiders believe the only strings attached to the approval is that costs are kept under control. It is understood that next year, transport bosses in the region will bid for about £400m more from the Transport Innovation Fund to complete the original Big Bang plan - now estimated at a cost of more than £1.2bn.

If they are successful, that money is likely to be linked to conditions - possibly the introduction of road charging in the region.

A decision on this extra cash is not expected until December next year.




SUPPORT: Douglas Alexander.Plans on hold

Plans to extend Metrolink were put on hold two years ago when the former Transport Secretary Alistair Darling pulled the plug on a promised £520m for the lines after costs spiralled.

The Manchester Evening News launched the "Get Back On Track" campaign to force the government to rethink the move.

Mr Alexander, who was due to announce the go-ahead in Parliament today before travelling to Manchester, praised the MEN for playing a major part in delivering the extensions to the tram system in Greater Manchester - a contrast to those in Liverpool and Leeds, which were turned down by the government.

"The Manchester Evening News has led a very strong campaign in support of Metrolink and I applaud you for it," said Mr Alexander.

"The Metrolink matters to Manchester. To build on it is something Manchester and the travelling public want and we have been working closely with the Passenger Transport Executive and the local authorities to deliver a tram system that is value for passengers.

"I will be setting out in Parliament later today the latest developments."

Preparation

Today's announcement is thought to be worth about £260m.

This comes on top of more than £200m already given, which has been used to buy land in preparation for the expansion; and a further £60m which has been used to buy a fleet of eight new trams and help fund renewal of rail track between the existing Bury to Altrincham line, some of which is 50 years old.

It all means the track will at last reach the sparkling £36m tram and bus interchange in Newton Heath which is almost complete.Manchester Central MP Tony Lloyd, who has been negotiating with ministers and transport chiefs, welcomed the announcement.

The former Labour minister said: "This is the end of a two-year struggle in which politicians and people in the community - including the MEN - have worked hard together."

That MEN Map of the extensions seems abit stupid. Wouldnt there be more sense building it all the way into Ashton so more people use it?

andy - the plan is to go all the way to Ashton just as soon as they comply to the TIF rules.

As has been said before, the government will not be comning up with all the money directly for Phase 3, however, Manchester would have to apply through TIF for the remainder of the cash - very positive vibes already coming from the DfT about this.

I FULLY expect we will not see a gap in construction between Phase 3a (what we have now) and Phase 3b - the remainder, the article suggests a decsion on Phase 3b money will be in December 2007 (Phase 3a construction doesn't start until 2008).

https://www.gnn.gov.uk/content/detail.asp?ReleaseID=212516&NewsAreaID=112&HUserID=878,793,894,857,779,868,864,845,786,674,677,767,684,762,718,674,708,683,706,718,674

Thursday 6 July 2006 10:37
Department for Transport (North West)

Government backs Metrolink extensions and gives go ahead for refurbishment work to start


Plans to extend the Metrolink tram and start work to replace the track on the line between Bury to Altrincham were today given approval by Transport Secretary, Douglas Alexander.

The decision to approve extensions to Oldham, Rochdale and Chorlton follows consideration of proposals put forward by Greater Manchester PTE earlier this year. Subject to the necessary assurances and costs being kept under control, construction of the extensions could start within the next two years.

GMPTE will now take forward the plans, which also include a further extension, to be funded by GMPTE, to Droylsden.

The Government also gave final go-ahead today for work to start on the replacement of a section of the existing Metrolink track. The Government will be contributing £32.2m to this work which is part of a wider £102m package to refurbish and enhance the capacity of the existing Metrolink system.

Douglas Alexander said:

"The Metrolink matters to Manchester. To build on it is something that the Manchester travelling public want. We have been working closely with Manchester PTE and the local authorities to deliver a tram that is value for passengers and the taxpayer."

The announcement was made alongside the Government's response to regional advice on transport priorities over the next ten years.

The decision fulfils the commitment the Government made to Manchester in 2004 that the £520m remained available for transport in the city, subject to their detailed proposals.

Notes for editors:
1. In June 2000, the Department gave full approval for Phase 3 extensions at £282m consisting of some refurbishment of the existing system and three new lines:

* North to Oldham and Rochdale;
* South to Manchester Airport; and
* East to Ashton-under-Lyne.

2. In December 2002, the estimated upfront public sector contribution was increased to £520m. This formed a funding cap. However, due to significant cost increases, the Department withdrew funding in July 2004. In December 2004, the Department confirmed that the £520m budget was still available subject to GMPTE developing a satisfactory plan for the areas included in the original scheme.

3. GMPTE submitted revised proposals earlier this year - which the Government is today responding to. They include extensions of the existing system north to Rochdale railway station and south to St Werburgh's road. Together with these extensions, GMPTE intend to take forward a further extension east to Droylsden, which they will fund wholly themselves.

4. GMPTE are proposing to submit a separate bid to the Transport Innovation Fund (TIF) to complete the lines as originally envisaged.

5. The scheme will need to come back for full approval once the procurement process has been undertaken and firm costs are known. Full approval will be granted provided that the costs and risks remain as approved today.

ISSUED ON BEHALF OF THE DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT
BY GNN NORTH WEST

Press releases from DfT can be viewed on http://www.gnn.gov.uk

Department for Transport
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London SW1P 4DR

Client ref DFT/NW/039/2006

GNN ref 135244P

Excellent news, looks like the replacement is far better.

Is there now an amended map showing the two phases?

Nick - I'll post one in a minute.

It's worth noting the GMPTA are quite confident that the whole of Phase 3 will be built as planned, to open by 2011 / 2012 - the remainder of the money to come from Transport Initiative Fund - announced Dec 2007.

It's a huge start though...

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/w/217/217413_map_metrolink_extensions.html

The map is on the above link.

By the looks of it, why don't they just give a little bit more money to build from Rochdale Station to Rochdale Town Center when its only two more stops and presumably only another 1km.

Same for the Ashton branch.


http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ContentResources/287.$plit/C_17_Articles_217413_BodyWeb_Detail_0_Image.jpg

By the looks of it, why don't they just give a little bit more money to build from Rochdale Station to Rochdale Town Center when its only two more stops and presumably only another 1km.

Same for the Ashton branch.


http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ContentResources/287.$plit/C_17_Articles_217413_BodyWeb_Detail_0_Image.jpg


That's awesome! The system is really coming to sprawl! It's shame about the big bang - but it still remains in the pipeline.

I'd really like to see a realignment of the tracks in the city centre. In an ideal world, a circle route underground would do wonders for the system. Firstly it offers a mode of transport (asides from buses) around Manchester and secondly - in the current state with all those additional services you're just asking for pile up and problems (as noted already with little priority over buses) so additional track would help to relieve this.

That's awesome! The system is really coming to sprawl! It's shame about the big bang - but it still remains in the pipeline.

I'd really like to see a realignment of the tracks in the city centre. In an ideal world, a circle route underground would do wonders for the system. Firstly it offers a mode of transport (asides from buses) around Manchester and secondly - in the current state with all those additional services you're just asking for pile up and problems (as noted already with little priority over buses) so additional track would help to relieve this.

Yes! I've heard metrolink say in the past that there's no need for an underground in Manchester because the trams suffice, but you can hardly get round the city centre on them - ala london - there's only so many stops in the city centre - and there's only so many you can achieve overground. A circle route would be fantastic.

gotta say if the trams in Manc are anywhere near as good as the Notts ones, this is brilliant.

The problem with the city centre is that even on the current system, if a tram breaks down there, it brings the whole thing to a stop. Anything that breaks down between Cornbrook and Victoria cocks up/would cock up the current and this new system totally.

The only way I could see this being addressed in any sort of cost effective way would be to run a line down Deansgate, or along Water Street/Trinity Way (This gives the added advantage of connecting with Salford Central Station). The problem being is that this line would have to come off around Pomona, and use the route of Throstle Nest Lane-Cornbrook Road then either Chester Road or Ellesmere Street to get to the second City Centre line into Victoria. Another possibility of course would be from Langworthy directly down Regent Road.

The trouble here is that Chester Road and Regent Road are seriously busy traffic routes.

It really is quite an impressive system. Where would an underground system route best be located?

It really is quite an impressive system. Where would an underground system route best be located?

Ina city with a large river running through it, or somewhere like http://www.cybertrn.demon.co.uk/guardian/inside.htm (this) :)

Mancunians and other Metrolink experts:

How long will it eventually become (in km) with all of these approved extensions?
Will there include any underground stations?

Cheers.

Mancunians and other Metrolink experts:

How long will it eventually become (in km) with all of these approved extensions?
Will there include any underground stations?

Cheers.

I'm not sure how long it will become, but there will be no underground stations, although when the Manchester Airport section is built it will go through a longish tunnel which has already been built.

There is a section at the bottom of this article on wikipedia about it which breaks down distances and trams per route which you may find of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Metro

I'm not sure how long it will become, but there will be no underground stations, although when the Manchester Airport section is built it will go through a longish tunnel which has already been built.

There is a section at the bottom of this article on wikipedia about it which breaks down distances and trams per route which you may find of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Metro

Thank you Zim Flyer, I think that I'll go and take a look at that site.. :)

Ok then, cheers!

So, on Friday Kelly gave us the final approval to spend £540m on Metrolink Phase 3a.

Phase 3 will only be completed if the TIF (congestion charge) bid is successful

From the PTE...

http://www.gmpte.com/news.cfm?news_id=6032063

£575 million Metrolink expansion gets final sign off
Published on Friday, 16 May 2008
Leading politicians and transport bosses in Greater Manchester have welcomed the government's decision to give its final approval for a £575 million expansion of the Metrolink tram network.

The new Metrolink lines will run to Oldham and Rochdale, Droylsden in Tameside and Chorlton in South Manchester. The project is being funded by local authorities in Greater Manchester and the Department for Transport.

Lord Peter Smith, Leader of the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities (AGMA), said: "Public transport will have a huge part to play in the region's continuing economic success, and I'm delighted we've now been given the go-ahead to build three new Metrolink lines.

"The Metrolink expansion has received widespread support from politicians, businesses and local communities across Greater Manchester. Without their backing, we wouldn't be in this position today.

"We'll be able to extend the network even further if the bid to the government's Transport Innovation Fund is successful. I hope these new Metrolink lines will be just the start of a major investment in our public transport network."

Sir Richard Leese, Deputy Leader of AGMA and Leader of Manchester City Council, said: "We welcome this good news. This is an important milestone but it is just the start. We need further funding to secure the transport infrastructure required to bring significant economic benefits to the city. We look forward to receiving the Government's decision on our Transport Innovation Fund bid which will generate more investment and boost the region's economy."

Michael Renshaw, Interim Service Delivery Director at Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive (GMPTE), said: "We're already carrying out initial surveys along the routes, and we've selected M-Pact Thales as our preferred bidder for the expansion. "Today's announcement means we can now complete our negotiations with the consortium and hopefully sign a contract within the next few weeks. We'll be able to provide more details about the timescales for the project once we've got a construction team in place."

The new Metrolink lines will cover nearly 20 miles, almost doubling the size of the network. They are expected to take five million car journeys off local roads every year, and to increase the number of trips passengers make each day from 55,000 to more than 90,000.

The M-Pact Thales consortium is made up of Thales UK, Laing O'Rourke and GrantRail. It has been selected as the preferred bidder for a contract to design, build and maintain the new Metrolink lines.

The consortium will also build a new quarter of a mile extension to Media City:UK in Salford Quays if the project is approved by the government.

More lines into Oldham and Rochdale town centres, as well as to Ashton-under-Lyne, East Didsbury, Manchester Airport and the Trafford Centre, could also be built if the bid to the government's Transport Innovation Fund is successful.

Click here to view the Metrolink Network Schematic Map

Click here to view the Metrolink Network Geographical Map


Schematic of Phase 3a

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2268/metrolinkphase3aschematmc8.jpg

Route map for Phase 3a

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5807/metrolinkphase3anetworkbt1.jpg

and if the TIF bid is successful...

The full Phase 3 route map...

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3692/metrolinkphase3networkmlb7.jpg

cheers for this Metrolink, some good maps there, I'm sure in the future if TIF and 3B Big Bang doesn't happen, there will be pressure to extend the line to Manchester Airport, sadly it would take about twenty years to happen at current Department of Transport speeds.

Woooo hooooooooo....

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1053043_city_gets_the_green_light_

Great news, but will the councils vote for the plan?

I don't think the DfT would be making this announcement if they were not confident that it's be approved locally.

It needs 7 of the 10 councils to approve the plans, I personally reckon at least 8 will approve them (probably Tory Trafford and Tory Bury voting against).

INCREDABLE

INCREDABLE

In what way Hammer?

All those car owners won't be pleased and look how the car drivers of outer London held onto their hatred of the charge with Ken.

I suppose the difference is councils only ever have 1/3 up for election.

Plus there are no elections for two years, and the Manchester scheme is MUCH fairer than the London one.

The charges only apply for limited times of the day, in certain directions of traffic flow, and the return that we are getting will be extremely visible - the demand for Metrolink expansion is huge.

what are the travel times to Manchester from Rochdale

Couldn't tell you, not familiar with the route, however, say from Timperley (between Altincham and Sale) to the M60 (about 3miles) it takes well over 1hr in the morning rush, there are many other routes around the south of the conurbation that I am familiar with (such as the M56 and M602) that are equally a horror story in the morning rush hour.

It's not that bad TIF. I sometimes have 9am meetings in town and the travel from Bowdon (M56) to Deansgate will take me an hour at the very most between 8 and 8.30. After 9am it takes about 20 minutes.

Having said that, I think I am actually beyond most of the problems which actually originate in the counties. Which brings me to my point...

The worst hit commuters (on my side of town) are those coming from say Northwich/Warrington/Chester because all the roads leading to the motorways are always completely solid... the A56 before Bowdon from here to Northwich, being one of the most congested roads I've ever seen. Any transport solution that doesn't solve that particular type of problem won't work in my opinion, and congestion charging, and all the city centre public transport systems on earth won't cure it.

The transport problem is much further out of town, certainly a lot further out than Altrincham.

My solution would be to build a much more efficient arterial road network into town and then build giant car parks in places like Altrincham, so that commuters can actually take advantage of the vastly improved Metrolink and travel services. Without that consideration all I can see happening is a better transport service for the people who already use it. It won't help someone who is going to work from say Northwich, because they still have to use the same shitty road network.

Cycling? If I go straight up the A56 from my house into town I can get there quicker on a bicycle at rush hour, which I would do more often if the cycle lanes were wider and more protected. At the moment they are far too exposed and bus drivers in particular are the least courteous most dangerous drivers on the road. A few of our staff ride in to work (Hale) from the city centre every day... which makes a lot of sense to me.

So which bits will actually get built if the councils put this charging into place? The whole lot?

www.gmfuturetransport.com (or maybe .co.uk)

ah, just realised the web site is being updated.

Try it on Tuesday.

ah, just realised the web site is being updated.

Try it on Tuesday.

But alot more than Metrolink being completed is planned, hufe improvements to buses and trains as well will happen.

ah, just realised the web site is being updated.

Try it on Tuesday.

But alot more than Metrolink being completed is planned, hufe improvements to buses and trains as well will happen.

What improvements can it make to the rail network? Thats not really how it works?

What improvements can it make to the rail network? Thats not really how it works?

I think there are plans to upgrade stations but am not sure if that is TiF money or not. I know there is a £2 Billion Network Rail plan to improve the area around Piccadilly station. There is a thread in here somewhere and another in the Manchester forum. I'll go find them.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531913

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531669&page=3

In what way Hammer?

The Size of It

Yet I spose its Manchesters Equivalent of the London Underground, only overground

28 trams ordered for Metrolink
By Simon Binns


The Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Authority has ordered 28 trams as part of the £575m project to build new Metrolink lines to Oldham and Rochdale, Droylsden in Tameside, and Chorlton in South Manchester.

The trams will be built by Bombardier in partnership with Vossloh Kiepe and cost just over £2m each. The new model of tram already operates in several European cities, including Cologne and Bonn.

Philip Purdy, Metrolink director, said: “We’re expecting passengers to make more than 90,000 journeys on the Metrolink network every day when the extensions open so we’ll need lots of extra trams.

“We’ve got a construction team in place to build the three new lines, and I’m pleased we’ve now reached the stage where we can order new trams to run on them. I’m looking forward to seeing the new model of tram become a familiar sight across Greater Manchester.”

Up to 200 passengers will be able to travel on each of the new trams. Bombardier will design and manufacture the trams at its sites in Bautzen in Germany and Vienna in Austria.

Comments? sbinns@crain.com

http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080624/FREE/80624001/1059/-/-/28-trams-ordered-for-metrolink
Its defo go go go!

Hoorah. Excellent news.

After eight years of hard campaigning and lots of tears we are finally getting the things we deserve with Metrolink.

Hoorah. Excellent news.

After eight years of hard campaigning and lots of tears we are finally getting the things we deserve with Metrolink.

I'd say its longer than 8 years but the last 2 have been the hardest. Promised, cancelled, campaigning with huge pressure and finally everything seems to be going ahead.

Hoorah. Excellent news.

After eight years of hard campaigning and lots of tears we are finally getting the things we deserve with Metrolink.

http://bestanimations.com/Holidays/Fireworks/Fireworks-03-june.gif http://bestanimations.com/Holidays/Fireworks/Fireworks-02-june.gifhttp://bestanimations.com/Holidays/Fireworks/Fireworks-01-june.gif

anyone got any pictures of the new trams?

anyone got any pictures of the new trams?


http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/uploads/f1/news/img/2008624_143940.jpg

Something like this.

... but in an insipid yellow and grey livery. Aparently.

New Livery, new trams on the bottom;

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0806/metrolinkyellow1wp3.jpg

Came across the Metrolink to Mediaicty public consultation brochure today.

Sure this hasn't been posted before.

Best diagram of the proposal so far.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/TRAM1.jpg

New Livery, new trams on the bottom;

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0806/metrolinkyellow1wp3.jpg

doesnt work for me

I'm pretty sure Jon will have been linking to these images. So far as I'm aware they are the only pictures of the new colour scheme in the public domain.

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5866/metrolinkyellow2ui7.jpg

As Jon say, the new trams are at the bottom of the two images


http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/390/metrolinkyellow1wp3.jpg

Update...

Home | News Article

08/10/2008 - New look for new trams

http://www.gmpte.com/images/news_pic_metrolink_081008.jpg

40 new Metrolink trams will bring a splash of yellow to Greater Manchester when they start to arrive next year.

Transport leaders on Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Authority (GMPTA) unveiled the new look on a model tram earlier today.

The trams will be yellow at the front, and have yellow and silver sides. The new colours will also be used inside the trams, and full-length glass double doors will make them feel lighter and brighter.

The trams, which have already been ordered and are costing just over £2 million each, will be added to the Metrolink network over the next three years. They will run on the existing system as well on the new lines to Oldham and Rochdale, Droylsden, Chorlton and MediaCityUK in Salford Quays.

Councillor Matt Colledge, Chair of GMPTA, said: “The new look trams will be just part of the improvements we’ll be making to Metrolink over the next few years. In fact, the expansion of the network will see it nearly double in size so the new trams will soon be running across Greater Manchester.”

Councillor Keith Whitmore, Vice Chair of GMPTA, said: “It’s amazing how much people associate Greater Manchester with trams. This new design will really make the trams stand out, with the exciting new livery giving an impression of speed and movement. I’m looking forward to seeing the first of the new look trams arrive next year.”

Councillor Richard Knowles, Chair of GMPTA’s Development and Operations Committee, said: “The Metrolink network is now more than 16 years old but the new look trams will take it firmly into the twenty-first century. The vibrant new colours look great and are highly visible, helping to improve road safety.”

The new look was developed by Manchester-based design agency Hemisphere. Grant Windridge, Creative Director, said: “Our aim has been to create a bright and iconic tram that is easily recognisable on the streets. We chose yellow not just because of its high visibility but also because its traditional association with confidence and optimism echoes Greater Manchester’s attitude and values.”

The 1.6-metre-long model tram unveiled today will be taken to London next week to show politicians and transport industry experts. A special event has been organised by GMPTA at the House of Commons to promote Greater Manchester’s future public transport network.

The new trams are being built by global transport company Bombardier in partnership with Vossloh Kiepe. The new model already operates in several European cities, including Cologne, Bonn, Rotterdam and Stockholm.

Up to 200 passengers will be able to travel on each of the new trams, and the wide double doors will make it easy for people with wheelchairs or prams to get on and off them. Bombardier is building the trams at its sites in Bautzen in Germany and Vienna in Austria.

Nearly £600 million is being invested on expanding the Metrolink network over the next three and a half years. Construction work will start next year and trams are due to begin running to Chorlton and Central Park in spring 2011, Oldham Mumps in autumn 2011, and to Rochdale and Droylsden in spring 2012.

The Metrolink network could be extended even further in the future using money from the government’s Transport Innovation Fund (TIF) and a loan supported by the introduction of a limited, peak-time only, congestion charge.

The TIF package of up to £3 billion includes extensions to Ashton-under-Lyne, East Didsbury, Manchester Airport, and Oldham and Rochdale town centres. Funding has also been earmarked to build a new line to Trafford Park and the Trafford Centre.

A formal consultation on the TIF proposals is currently taking place and a referendum will be held in December.

Been sniffing around the interweb and I've come up with this little beaut, :) plus a few articles. I'm liking it. Still not sure about the yellow though. At leaset the silver won't date.

I give...............

http://www.designweek.co.uk/assets/getasset.aspx?uiAssetID=5313af97-8c1e-43ac-846d-16b5d01dc56b

Manchester's Metrolink trams have been given a fresh new look, devised by branding consultancy Hemisphere.

The brand overhaul is part of the Government's £600m investment programme, which will see the 16-year-old Metrolink system double in size over the next four years.

Central to the new brand is the flexible 'speed graphic' device of graduated circles, fading out from the yellow nose into the sleek metallic body of the tram, to denote a sense of forward momentum.

Hemisphere marketing director Sue Vanden says, 'The branding successfully conveys the sense of reliability and modernity that the city has been waiting for.'

The identity will be rolled out across the Metrolink system from 2009.

Dalton Maag worked alongside Hemisphere to produce the network's new bespoke font.

From How Do.

Hemisphere add go faster stripes* to Metrolink | Print | Email to a friend
Friday, 10 October 2008
The new Metrolink trams have been revealed with a design by Manchester agency Hemisphere.

*Rather than go-faster stripes, they’ve been designed with go-faster circles, which radiate from the yellow nose.

Metro-shrink"Our aim has been to create a bright and iconic tram that is easily recognisable on the streets." explained creative director Grant Windridge.

"We chose yellow not just because of its high visibility but also because its traditional association with confidence and optimism echoes Greater Manchester’s attitude and values."

Sadly for the commuters, the tram that was unveiled this week was just a 5 foot plastic model, with the real things expected later next year.

"This new design will really make the trams stand out, with the exciting new livery giving an impression of speed and movement. I’m looking forward to seeing the first of the new look trams arrive next year," added Councillor Keith Whitmore, Vice Chair of Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Association.

40 new trams will start arriving over the next few months, each costing £2m.

Are they doing anything else to improve the infrastructure? Like improving the information on 'next tram due' available from stops?

I still think the overwhelming flaw in this system is having one line through the city. It's going to be asking for trouble with increased trams and traffic following the extensions. Oh and the lack of proper integrated ticketing that's a shame too.

All these things hold Metrolink back.

I still think the overwhelming flaw in this system is having one line through the city.
Second city crossing is planned.

In terms of infrastructure, all stations are slowly being upgraded with live text information, and new ticket machines are being installed over the next 12 months, which accept card as well as cash (a welcome addition). A new depot is being built in Old Trafford, and Cornbrook station is being upgraded into a larger interchange to allow for the increased traffic that will be flowing through thanks to the new Media City and Chorlton extensions.

Are they doing anything else to improve the infrastructure? Like improving the information on 'next tram due' available from stops?

I still think the overwhelming flaw in this system is having one line through the city. It's going to be asking for trouble with increased trams and traffic following the extensions. Oh and the lack of proper integrated ticketing that's a shame too.

All these things hold Metrolink back.

I believe the improvements to ticketing and information are being introduced as part of 3a and so are guaranteed within the next few years (by 2011 I think).

Integrated ticketing with buses is likely to happen at some stage (with the increase in the PTEs powers over the bus network due to the most recent transport act) although this is presumably going to be a slow process in GM, as it is such a chaotic and diverse bus market.

The introductions of a city wide electronic payment system and the construction of a second city crossing are dependent on the results of the TIF poll to be conducted in December (as do the central Oldham and Rochdale and Aston extensions, the Airport and Didsbury lines, the Trafford Centre line and various quality bus improvements). Hopefully it will be passed and Manchester can take a step forward in getting something approaching the transport system it needs.

I believe the improvements to ticketing and information are being introduced as part of 3a and so are guaranteed within the next few years (by 2011 I think).

Integrated ticketing with buses is likely to happen at some stage (with the increase in the PTEs powers over the bus network due to the most recent transport act) although this is presumably going to be a slow process in GM, as it is such a chaotic and diverse bus market.

The introductions of a city wide electronic payment system and the construction of a second city crossing are dependent on the results of the TIF poll to be conducted in December (as do the central Oldham and Rochdale and Aston extensions, the Airport and Didsbury lines, the Trafford Centre line and various quality bus improvements). Hopefully it will be passed and Manchester can take a step forward in getting something approaching the transport system it needs.

I really hope it does get passed.

What Manchester really needs though is a proper Metro system. A tram is a tram. The Metrolink really should be fully segregated and 6 cars long. If cut and cover tunneling is too expensive, then full segregation should be explored like raised viaducts.

I really hope it does get passed.

What Manchester really needs though is a proper Metro system. A tram is a tram. The Metrolink really should be fully segregated and 6 cars long. If cut and cover tunneling is too expensive, then full segregation should be explored like raised viaducts.

I don't really think Manchester needs a Metro system at all, there just isn't the demand on any corridor.

I haven't lived in the city for several years, but when I did I used to commute at rush hour from the southern suburbs into the city by tram. It was always indecently packed, except when a double tram (4-car length, maximum capacity of about 500) came along. These were more than adequate for the people using the system even at the busiest times. By 2011 all rush hour trams on the original line will be double length. Six cars is overkill in a city of Manchester's current density.

Please tell me if it is irrelevant, but does Metrolink suffer from having high platforms, like "normal" trains?
I mean do the trams merge into the street-scene worse than they would, if "conventional" low-floor ones?
This is just a perception matter, nothing more than that.

I quite like having the high platforms in the city centre - it means those waiting for a tram aren't in the flow of shoppers (this is especially true for the Market Street stop) and are instead on a quieter "island" above the bustling shopping crowd. Makes things more pleasant for those alighting/departing the trams in the city centre.

Please tell me if it is irrelevant, but does Metrolink suffer from having high platforms, like "normal" trains?
I mean do the trams merge into the street-scene worse than they would, if "conventional" low-floor ones?
This is just a perception matter, nothing more than that.

They have steps that come out on the lower bits. Such as the other day I got on a 4 car unit in town and am sure the platform full height isn't as long a single tram. Anyway I had to use the step as I was at road level. Am pretty sure their going to make the problem platforms longer.

I noticed that when I was in Manchester last; the platforms aren't long enough.

Indeed, those platforms are being altered early next year, so soon all city centre platforms will accomdate double length trams properly.

On balance I think Higher platforms are probably the best idea. They have made/will make it relatively cheap to convert much of the conurbations under utilised rail infrastructure directly to Metrolink and will hopefully one day allow the adaptation of some suburban and commuter lines to tram-train operation.

There's no reason that potential future phases of Metrolink construction couldn't be low floor (Cologne uses both heights I believe) but at the moment high platforms serve the system well.

The main problem with the UK Tram systems is that they've been designed with main target being the lower construction cost. That means most of the Tram stops are literally in the middle of nowhere. I'm just wondering how many of the Metrolink extension stops will be straight in the high street of each Manchester suburb. The same applies for the Birmingham line. You can't expect to build a second class cheaply designed transport system and then everyone to give up his car just to freeze to death in a retail or business park in the middle of nowhere.

The main problem with the UK Tram systems is that they've been designed with main target being the lower construction cost. That means most of the Tram stops are literally in the middle of nowhere. I'm just wondering how many of the Metrolink extension stops will be straight in the high street of each Manchester suburb. The same applies for the Birmingham line. You can't expect to build a second class cheaply designed transport system and then everyone to give up his car just to freeze to death in a retail or business park in the middle of nowhere.

Have you ever used the Metrolink? As much of the lines travel over the existing British Rail right of way many of the stations are in the centres of the towns that grew around them in the middle of the 19th century. Altrincham, Sale, Eccles, Bury and Prestwich all have stations on or adjacent to the main high street. The next expansion will see Chorlton and Droylsden join them. If TIF goes ahead Oldham, Ashton and Rochdale, Didsbury and Wythenshawe will all get stations in their centres.

The main problem with the UK Tram systems is that they've been designed with main target being the lower construction cost.seeing as they ripped out all the original platforms on the Birmingham line, you're quite wrong.That means most of the Tram stops are literally in the middle of nowhere.....The same applies for the Birmingham line.The Midland Metro has so many stations (half of them the original GW ones completely rebuilt - the better places ones), and goes through so many town centres, it's rather hard for the town centres to be missed. The problem isn't badly sited stations, it's too many of them and an inability to use it to effectively 4-track the route between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.You can't expect to build a second class cheaply designed transport system and then everyone to give up his carindeed - the Midland Metro is awful. Heavy rail would have been far far better, and seeing as it was there before, makes the tram even worse.

Metrolink, on the other hand, only has the problem that it should be a subway system on the Bury (could have then served Bolton - in fact, why didn't they have Bolton via Radcliffe - ought to be an extension, and a chord can do Bury-Bolton traffic) and Altrincham routes, seeing as they are major radial routes.

Looking at the map that was posted back on the first page.

I suppose Phase 4 should go out towards Denton in the South East of Manc and then throw Salford in the North West of Manc both of which seem to be distinctly lacking any rail infrastructure.

Yellow and silver? Man what a rip of merseytravel!

First Image of the new trams under-construction.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_gb-manchester-tram-under-construction.jpg

Yellow and silver? Man what a rip of merseytravel!

Merseytravel and GMPTE should be merged.

Merseyrail should be extended throughout the North West.

Metrolink should be extended throughout the North West on under used secondary lines.

You're not being serious? The Metrolink is a light railway/tram system - it's not meant to be running for miles and miles through countryside. :| That's what we have the actual railway network for. I already find travelling up to Bury on the Metrolink a bit silly - the line to Oldham/Rochdale (which is heavy rail at the moment) will be even longer than the Bury line. Trams are for the city and not longer distance town-town transit.

I don't know MP, in Germany they seem to integrate longer range tram-trains into local light rail systems fairly easilly. In fact continental cities seem to combine the use of light rail for inner city tram, suburban light rail and middle distance inter urban commuting functions seamlessly.

There's no reason (in theory) why this option couldn't be taken for lines out to Wigan and beyond in the west, Chester and Crewe in the South, Buxton and the Hope Valley in the South East, Blackburn and Burnley in the north and Halifax and maybe even Bradford in the East.

An RER type system would work better for Manchester's regional rail. I reckon that only one tunnel is needed for suburban services (a tunnel under Piccadilly, from the Airport line to the Stalybridge line would be a rather decent thing - carries TPE, and possibly a future HSL, saving the need for a reverse). That would be the Pic-Vic, but with the Vic bit changed, so as not to point NE, towards Bury, but NW towards Salford and Bolton (and Southport, Blackpool and Blackburn). A rearrangement near Piccadilly can allow E-W trains, eg Rose Hill-Warrington, or Hatfield-Wigan NW.

I do think that tram works on orbital routes between towns - look at Croydon. Rochdale-Oldham can be considered one like that, as could Bolton-Bury-Rochdale (using disused track and the East Lancs Railway). It also works for routes that don't have rail - eg the Eccles route (well, for the places inbetween) and the Stockport, Manchester Airport and Ashton routes.

The sad truth is that Manchester is very unlikely to recieve the money needed to build the tunnels required to free up the capacity to make an RER system feasible. The lines I've suggested are all heavily subsidised lines that aren't used at great capacity. If their local services could be converted to tram train and their paths through the Manchester Rail Hub reallocated then it would allow a much better service to the busier lines in the local and regional network (the lines out to Liverpool, Leeds, Stockport & Macclesfield, Bolton & Preston etc.).

Since this page has slipped down the list the work to extend the Metrolink has moved forward.:banana:

Here's a few links to images and sites that show some recent progress:

http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=4192950
http://www.gmpte.com/pdf/Met_upgrades_6_April_leaflet.pdf
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Metrolink_extension_to_Chorlton.jpg
http://www.gmpte.com/news.cfm?news_id=6079285
http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/1096148_gmpte_bear_with_us_plea

Onwards and...tramwards!

I don't know MP, in Germany they seem to integrate longer range tram-trains into local light rail systems fairly easilly. In fact continental cities seem to combine the use of light rail for inner city tram, suburban light rail and middle distance inter urban commuting functions seamlessly.

There's no reason (in theory) why this option couldn't be taken for lines out to Wigan and beyond in the west, Chester and Crewe in the South, Buxton and the Hope Valley in the South East, Blackburn and Burnley in the north and Halifax and maybe even Bradford in the East.

Yeah in most Germanic cities they operates trams and u-bahns (underground) in the central areas and for the greater metro area the s-bahn (suburban) which carries small trains with long carriages.

Building metrolink to Bolton is silly and a similar system what is used in the likes of Munich, Berlin etc would work very well in manchester.

shame the tossers who live there and our silly government will never let it happen.. our systems dont work!!!

I don't think building Metrolink to Bolton would be 'silly' at all.

Current heavy rail services cannot cope with demand, lack of capacity means intermediate stations (Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley, etc.) get piss-poor service.

Thanks to short-sightedness, two very useful lines were shut, Bolton - Radcliffe/Bury, and Bolton - Hospital - Walkden - Eccles. If these lines hadn't closed, they would have been ideal for Metrolink or tram-train conversion.

Vast swathes of East Bolton (Darcy Lever/Breightmet) are going down the pan, because people cannot access work/healthcare, etc. Just like East Manchester in the 90's.

Had Picc-Vic gone ahead, they would have enjoyed an electric, frequent suburban train service, both to Bolton *and* Manchester. Had TIF gone ahead, this trackbed (still there!) would have been converted to a cycle greenway, connecting those areas (almost) back with the railway.

Instead, we continue to widen the M60, again and again.

I don't think building Metrolink to Bolton would be 'silly' at all.

<snip>

Thanks to short-sightedness, two very useful lines were shut, Bolton - Radcliffe/Bury, and Bolton - Hospital - Walkden - Eccles. If these lines hadn't closed, they would have been ideal for Metrolink or tram-train conversion.Totally agree. Add the Leigh-Walkden disused railway to the Eccles route, going to be a busway (big step down from a tram).Had Picc-Vic gone ahead, they would have enjoyed an electric, frequent suburban train service, both to Bolton *and* Manchester. Had TIF gone ahead, this trackbed (still there!) would have been converted to a cycle greenway, connecting those areas (almost) back with the railway.Thanks to short-sightness, it wasn't and Metrolink took over the Bury route.

Ideally Bury, Bolton, Altrincham, etc would be on S-bahn type routes (Picc-Vic, etc). However Metrolink has taken over Bury, and the direct route to Altrincham. It may as well reach Bolton via a second route, such as via Radcliffe, or Walkden. Such a route wouldn't be for central Bolton-central Manchester journeys, but for journeys to these places from places between the two (especially if they go via Walkden and Eccles).Instead, we continue to widen the M60, again and again.The former M62 (the trans-Pennine route, not the Stretford-Eccles bypass route) bit of the M60 - the bit near Bolton - has only been widened once, when the M60 was finished (of course, j12-13 has been widened twice, the first time when it was co-opted as part of the trans-Pennine route). IIRC there aren't any current plans to widen it, just to manage the capacity better. OK, 6-8 has been widened twice, but as part of the first non-trunk motorway in the UK (and very early), it was built at 2-lanes in a gross under-estimate of future traffic levels.

So, is there a Plan B after all???

http://www.agma.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/stream/asset/?asset_id=2242008

Is it possible to put any of that in English?

Essentially AGMA (who represent the 10 GM councils) have been working on plans to see what can be achieved after TIF failed.

They say some of the ideas such as electric ticketing and integration are simply not possible.

However, over the next 10years they expect to get funding from the Regional Funding Allocation (RFA - 500m over 10 years) now this is not enough to deliver anything of sustance, as such the councils have been given a couple of options with regards meeting the funding gap, essentially taking money from other schemes plus increasing the ITA levy (comes from the council tax).
The paper provides three examples of what may be achieved, the cost benefit and how they are prioritised.

If 7 of the 10 boroughs vote in favour of these scenarions it is possible that some transport schemes may see the light of day than if we simply relied on RFA.

Hearing the individual councils position on this is critical. Tameside, Stockport, Manchester, Rochdale, Salford, Wigan and Bolton appear to get good rewards. Oldham, Bury and the usual suspects in Trafford appear to get less.
Either way, can our elected representatives PLEASE make the decision themselves without a referendum.

As always in GM interesting political times.

Oh, and MAA makes this all the more possible.

Metro - Do you know what the LTP topslice actually is, as it seems to involve a fairly large financial committment from somebody?

EDIT: Having read through the document I still no idea what topslicing means, but I am slightly appalled that an £85 million pound scheme with a BCR of 1:3.8 has to fight so hard to get funded in this country.

Local Transport Plan is a 10yearly plan each ITA (old PTA) puts together for schemes that prioritise the most important schemes.

As I understand it they are saying that instead of millions of little schemes like cycle lanes, road junction improvements a specific proportion would be taken away from those schemes and sliced off for these projects.

I may not be right there though, would like someone to give some more details there.

The very good thing is WE will decide which schemes go ahead, as such CBR of 3.8 costing just 85m will just get built when we have the funds, no more justification to the DfT to spend every penny.

Not sure if this has been posted?

Open meeting for transport plans. TOMORROW
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8042658.stm

Members of the public have been invited to a meeting with Greater Manchester public transport leaders to discuss how services can be improved.

Greater Manchester Integrated Transport Authority (GMITA) is holding a special seminar on 11 May at Manchester Town Hall at 1030 BST.

Representatives from the bus, tram, railway companies will also be present.

A GMITA spokesman said it would be a great opportunity to discuss future plans and investment.

Councillor Matt Colledge, chair of GMITA, said: "This will be a great opportunity for members of the public to discuss public transport with the very people who are in charge of it.

"We're in the middle of a £700m investment in Metrolink, real headway is being made on the Manchester rail hub study, and we are continuing to explore the new powers to improve bus services afforded by the Local Transport Act.

"So I'd urge anyone with an interest in our buses, trains and trams to come along to this event and find out more."


More information here: http://www.gmita.gov.uk/site/scripts/events_index.php

and agenda (http://secure.manchester.gov.uk/gmita/downloads/Agenda_-_State_of_Transport_Conference_-_11_May_09_2_.pdf)

Local Transport Plan is a 10yearly plan each ITA (old PTA) puts together for schemes that prioritise the most important schemes.

As I understand it they are saying that instead of millions of little schemes like cycle lanes, road junction improvements a specific proportion would be taken away from those schemes and sliced off for these projects.

I may not be right there though, would like someone to give some more details there.

The very good thing is WE will decide which schemes go ahead, as such CBR of 3.8 costing just 85m will just get built when we have the funds, no more justification to the DfT to spend every penny.


Ah, that makes sense. One thing I did like in the report was the imput of the business leaders who proposed a joint agency for all transport matters (along the lines of the waste disposal agency. It would certainly stop the ridiculous situation of Trafford Council painting some green paint down the side of the road that leads into Manchester, stopping it at the boundary and calling it a cycle route.

Curious times.

Things will develop and such a massive infrastructure couldnt be better timed for the City Region.

Totally agree. Add the Leigh-Walkden disused railway to the Eccles route, going to be a busway (big step down from a tram).

I spoke to the chairman of GMITA and he said that there simply was not the demand for a tram or rail link to Leigh. I always presumed that the busways would be precursors to tram links as they test the scheme, install part of the infrastructure and then it switch over 10 years later. According to him though there are no such plans.

There is also going to be an AGMA meeting today (12th May) to discuss whether to go ahead with the levy proposals.

Interesting, the May AGMA meeting was meant to take place on the 8th, wonder if that has been delayed?

http://blogs.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/mt/mt-comments-mt.cgi - David Ottewell's last comment is intriging.

See Transport Expenditure thread in Manc subforum for ongoing news, seems that Phase3 may really be go!!!

http://blogs.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/politics/2009/05/post_688.html it really is go for Metrolink Phase3.

GM councils working together like no others in the UK manage.

This is Phase3+ is go, excellent news!!!

Wow this is superb news.

What happens now, will construction tenders be awarded to the existing construction firms who are working on the big bang A extensions and does Mancester need to get any legal powers to build the big bang B extensions, ie Transport and Works Acts?

Nope, all legal powers already in place and the company building Phase3a has the contract to do the rest.

The company building the trams also have the order for a possible extra 60od trams!
There will be over 100 trams in the phase 3 fleet alone!

Nope, all legal powers already in place and the company building Phase3a has the contract to do the rest.

The company building the trams also have the order for a possible extra 60od trams!
There will be over 100 trams in the phase 3 fleet alone!

oh superb news, this has been really well thought out and will save time and money, credit again to the powers that be in Manchester.

Does this include a second line through the city? If not, I think Market St/Piccadilly Gardens will become quite fruity...

Yes, 2CC (2nd City Centre route) is included, route unknown though.

So what is the timeframe to get all these extensions built then?

I should imagine a similar timeframe to that previously stated for 3b, since there have been statements that work on the first of these additions could start in September 2009. It would effectively be tagged onto the 3a programme.

I'm so pleased for Manchester - this will really give it a boost, jobwise, mobility and feeling like a proper European centre.

I hope the 2CC line is grade separated enough after GMEX station so that there isn't too much route/network pollution.

Is there any plan to separate the lines and have distinct route pairs - rather than a free for all? If so, they should colour and brand them with a funky map, rip off the tube maybe as the current map is a bit shit.

New official map has been released.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj197/manchestermymanchester/scan0001-2.jpg

from metrolink thread http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=584932&page=258

Do we know when the details of the second city crossing route will be released?

Love the contrast between the futuristic-sounding Sportcity-Velodrome, G-Mex, Harbour City and MediaCity-UK contrasted with the olde Lancashire-sounding Eccles, Audenshaw, Besses o' th' Barn and Oldham Mumps. :)

Great news about the extensions though -- hope the same investment takes places in some of the other great northern cities too.

Do we know when the details of the second city crossing route will be released?

Would have thought it will be known by the end of the year which the prefered route would be.

Needs T&W Order plus planning permission, also potentially compulsary purchase orders.

They won't want to announce the route too early though as it could potentially affect land values, they need to be certain before any public announcements are to be made.

Not strictly Metrolink, but Tramways and Urban Transit this month have a good article from annual tram conference (Croydon this year).

Basically it is down to local authroities to come up with overwhelming reasons to get trams as there are many in the treasury that simply do not recognise them as a good investment.

They stated that a change of government will not change this as the civil servants will still be there in Whitehall.

The Manchester model of raisign taxes locally and top slicing the RFA grant was seen as a future model, who have cancelled a couple of major roads to develop trams instead.

Government man basically said Manchester have chose trams over roads, it is up to other authorities to make similar choices should they chose.

Is there a map of what there is now and what is to be added and a time for each addition?

See the Manc subforum, someone has posted a map (scanned from local paper a couple of days ago).

Does not have the dates on, but the new lines will be coming online from 2011 until 2014.

Will be 8 lines, about 110 stops and 120 trams in the entire network (rough estimates so do not take those as 100% acurate).

Laptop battery about to go flat, otherwise would give more accurate details.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj197/manchestermymanchester/scan0001-2.jpg

There you go.

2CC is still not known.

Looks like both routes around Oldham will be kept.

Will be at least a 6min service on each route other than from Shaw to Rochdale and Broadway to Eccles - both will be a 12min service.

Number of stops...

Eccles to Pomona (including Media:City) - 11
Altrincham to Cornbrook - 10
Airport to Hough End - 19
East Dids to Firswoord - 8
G-Mex to Victoria plus to Piccadilly (1CC) - 8
2CC - 2 to 5 depending on route
Ashton to New Islington - 12
Bury to Queens Road - 11
Rochdale to Monsall (including Werneth) - 20

That makes 100 not including 2CC, that will be between 2 and 5 additional stops taking us to just over the 100 mark.

There ain't many cities with anything like that kind of extensive light rail network, not even in Germany!

I'm a bit confused, which lines were the ones included in the Congestion Charge scheme??

Horokeio

The Lancashire sounding names indeed.

Its weird that Bess o'th'Barn is never called that here in Manchester, except by non locals. Its just Besses.

And as for Eccles, well that pre-dates Lancashire by a half century. Its a hangover from the region's Welsh/ancient British heritage meaning Church,

Next door is Patricroft which apparnetly gets its name from St Patricks and his apparent time here.

The names are important for these stops as witness the LU experience.

I'm a bit confused, which lines were the ones included in the Congestion Charge scheme??

Phase 3b is mostly extensions of Phase 3a. There is no funding for the Trafford Centre line and other schemes not in Metrolink have been dropped. Such as more better railway stations and more trains.

Its easier to understand on this webpage....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Metrolink#Phase_3

Instead of a congestion charge, council tax will be increased and that is now a done deal.

Metman (one of the tram drivers) is reporting that the new trams are to start arriving from 13th July at the Queens Rd depot - probably six weeks until it starts in normal service - but the first 'improvement' to service that Phase3a has brought - until now it has all been disruption.

Metrolink's first new tram lands in Manchester
Published on Monday, 13 July 2009

The first of Metrolink's brand new trams has arrived at the Manchester Queen's Road depot after a marathon journey from the manufacturing site in Vienna.

The new M5000 unit made the final leg of its journey under police escort in the early hours this morning, landing safely at the depot at around 6am.

The new look yellow and silver vehicle is the first of a new generation of tram for the expanding Metrolink network, which is being transformed by a multimillion-pound investment programme.

The tram was welcomed at the depot by the Chair of GMITA, Councillor Keith Whitmore. He said: "This is a fantastic day for Metrolink and its thousands of passengers. Our trams have become an icon of Manchester - and this new generation will ensure that legacy continues - but this new tram is also a symbol of a very bright future for Metrolink.

"People already make around 20 million journeys on our trams each year but we're currently building four new lines that will double the size of the network by 2012.

"Metrolink is only going to keep growing and these new trams will ensure that, when it does, we can continue to provide high quality services fit for the 21st century."

Philip Purdy, GMPTE's Metrolink Director, said: "We've been looking forward to this day and following the new tram's progress very closely. I am really pleased with the result.

"The tram will now undergo extensive operational and safety tests and we'll also have to train people how to drive it. The tests will go on through the summer and the autumn before the tram goes into service.

"I hope to see it up and running towards the end of the year and I am certain people will be delighted with it when it does."

The M5000 tram, which cost just over ?2 million, was manufactured by global transport company Bombardier. The same model already runs in several European cities.

The new tram left the Bombardier depot in Vienna on the back of an articulated lorry in the early hours of Thursday and travelled almost 1,000 miles as it made its way through Germany, the Netherlands and Rotterdam before landing at the Port of Hull on Sunday.

It will now be given a thorough check by Metrolink and Stagecoach officials before taking its first run out on the system and a driver training programme begins.

A total of 40 new trams have been ordered to provide more room on existing services and to cater for passengers on the new lines being built to Oldham and Rochdale, Droylsden in Tameside, Chorlton in South Manchester and MediaCityUK in Salford.

The new tram is yellow at the front, and has yellow and silver sides, in line with the new Metrolink identity. The new colours have also been used inside the tram, and full-length glass double doors will make it feel lighter and brighter than the current vehicles.

http://www.gmpte.com/images/news_pic_newtram_130709.jpg


http://www.gmpte.com/news.cfm?news_id=6117059

cool. what does everyone think of these new trams then? i would read the metrolink thread but it's longer than...something very long indeed. :)

Mmm, to summarise some people have expressed they might be a bit drab inside but its hard to tell since the photos were taken while the tram was resting in a dimly lit building, theirs a potential issue with a centre bar infront of doors possibly restricting wheelchair access but again we need to see closeup whether its an issue or not. We are just hoping the wiring is multi-coloured and not all black like the 2xxx trams which is severley hampening getting 2001 back in service due to extensive damage to its electrical systems from a side swipe collision being difficult to repair (its been out of service for months and repairing it is still stumping engineers.)

As posted in the Manc forum;

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=89755&sid=c2a3e6434d66c3e2ab833f9096ee55d1

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=89756&sid=c2a3e6434d66c3e2ab833f9096ee55d1

It looks OK ; appears more streamline than the current fleet .

Should be a darker yellow IMO.

As posted in the Manc forum;

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=89755&sid=c2a3e6434d66c3e2ab833f9096ee55d1

those wheels should offer for a smoother ride. i approve. :lol:

lol, you saying that reminds me of some of the guided busways, they have a central guide rail but rubber tyres take all the load. Problem is it means the tyres arent evenly worn and instead run down really quickly and the road surface as well forms grooves from all the running on the exact same spot.

You need to make the road from concrete to stop the grooves.

which runs the tyres down faster.

Even if it was granite tyres on granite surface one or other would still erode down.

Maglev trams.

What i was saying is that would get rid of the grooves... surely replacing tyres is preferable.

Think of the cost!!!

Certainly would add up if you were going to be running a number of buses for say 40 years.

I am liking the pics of the new tram :) couldn't help noticing that the end shots have "3001B" and the side shots have "3001".

Anyone know why that is? (and would like to share it!)

Like the existing trams they have an A end and a B end - to help in the maintenance I presume.
If you look above the doors to the drivers cabs you can see the ends of the (existing )trams labelled.

^^ :cheers: 4 that - I have to say I'd never noticed before. duh!

As posted in the Manc forum;

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=89755&sid=c2a3e6434d66c3e2ab833f9096ee55d1

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=89756&sid=c2a3e6434d66c3e2ab833f9096ee55d1

I don't like the yellow.Makes it look a bit like merseyrail.

I don't like the yellow.Makes it look a bit like merseyrail.

For people who don't know - Merseyrail livery:

http://www.robswebdump.com/images/garston14.jpg

you can't hotlink subbrit images...

Some picies of city centre work...

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