Not gonna affect Bradford because everyone across the country knows what a kak hole Bradford is. So it can only get better. And slowly it is. All this Leeds city region, why should york bradford and wakefield come under that banner. All cities in their own right. Leeds has cash, we dont, doesnt help that 30% of our population are spraffing off the state. Never worked a day in their lives. Bradford has history, tourism with media museum, city of film, curry capital, haworth, saltaire etc. It infuriates me that people think oh yeah just shove Bradford in that category and leave it. We're sod all to do with leeds. Sorry to anyone who thinks im an absolute idiot but i joined this forum so i could voice my frustrations/opinions about the regeneration and future of the city i love and am proud to come from
Economically, if all the West Yorkshire cities and towns don't pull together, they'll only lose out to other competitive city regions in the UK and Europe. I would think that the success of Leeds's neighbouring towns depends on the city of Leeds and vice versa. If Wakefield / Kirklees et al co-operate with Leeds and Bradford doesn't, Bradford will not be in a good shape.

Culturally, Bradford and Leeds are independent places and I don't think that co-operation between the two cities will change this too much. Just as places within Bradford District (Bradford, Keighley, Ilkley etc) will all see themselves as separate, despite being in the same government district, but the economic reality is that places need to work together.

Dunlin-I'd imagine a 'metro mayor' would work as london's does, with a Greater Leeds Council to hold the mayor to account, which would replace the city councils, leaving the Borough councils below them.
Whilst I agree with that and I'm very much supportive of the idea of regional layer of government, I'm not sure how this would square with the Tories' 'localism' agenda.

In Bradford we saw that in 10 years of rule by councillors who represented the outer ring of villages. In Leeds you can see it in Holbeck and Beeston - areas of voiceless people left to rot rather than a focus on creating economically vibrant areas.

Would this be the same Holbeck and Beeston that are seeing multi-million pound regeneration projects while more affluent areas of Leeds go relatively underfunded? It's well known in Leeds schools that money for education deliberately stops once you go beyond the inner city suburbs.

Not gonna affect Bradford because everyone across the country knows what a kak hole Bradford is. So it can only get better. And slowly it is. All this Leeds city region, why should york bradford and wakefield come under that banner. All cities in their own right. Leeds has cash, we dont, doesnt help that 30% of our population are spraffing off the state. Never worked a day in their lives. Bradford has history, tourism with media museum, city of film, curry capital, haworth, saltaire etc. It infuriates me that people think oh yeah just shove Bradford in that category and leave it. We're sod all to do with leeds. Sorry to anyone who thinks im an absolute idiot but i joined this forum so i could voice my frustrations/opinions about the regeneration and future of the city i love and am proud to come from

Sorry Bradfordian but you wrong. Maybe 100 years ago Bradford was nothing to do with Leeds, but now we're two cities whose western boundaries overlap and who share at least 60% of a local economy. The Leeds City Region isn't an attempt to denigrate other towns it's the economic reality of Yorkshire as it stands. The LCR isn't to denigrate that Bradford is a city in its own right, just that the economy of West yorks can't sustain two major centres. This is the case for every single large conurbation ever.

The idea that multiple centres can compete to bring the best results for a region collapse when you understand that economics is dependent on game theory. I.e. a big business chooses to open an office in Leeds. It doesn't follow they would have opened in Bradford had they not chosen Leeds. They would more probably have chosen Sheffield, or Manchester as a base. But having Leeds as a large commercial centre has major spinoff benefits for Bradford (as I outlined earlier). Bradford gearing itself towards these spinoffs, commuters, and exiles from Leeds will benefit the city exponentially more than trying to compete.

Why? Firstly because getting Bradford anywhere near able to compete with Leeds will take a shedload of money. But two, let's assume we were competing on an even footing, that that was possible. Now every time a business goes to Bradford, they don't go to Leeds, and vice versa. There's no overall improvement here, just an aggregation of what would have gone to Leeds under the first model. 'All very well for Bradford' you might say, except that this aggregation does two things

1) It means neither city builds up as a huge commercial centre which grows exponentially, causing ever more businesses to want to locate there

and

2) The density of business never gets so great to force smaller companies out of the city centre

end result: Both Leeds & Bradford have an average level of business, of small-medium sized companies, and get completely dicked on by Manchester.

This isn't to say the competition theory doesn't work, it can, but Leeds & Bradford are simply too close together for it to ever work. So competition between Greater Leeds, Greater Manchester & Merseyside will work, but it just won't in terms of Leeds-Bradford.

Bradford's best strategy for regeneration is to improve its cultural offering, improve transport so it attracts commuters, and improve the city centre retail offering just up to the standard of what you'd expect in say, York or Huddersfield.

This isn't to say we shouldn't preserve the historic rivalry, we should. The United v City & Rhinos v Bulls matches will always be something to treasure, and i'd really love both our football teams to get to a place where the West Yorkshire derby is up there with the biggest rivalries in football. But at the minute, it's a long way off.

Anyway...

I was printing the Telegraph and Argus last night and apparently the mirror pool has been delayed until December/January (when it should be opening september). T&A are blaming the weather, and unforeseen events such as the 'EDL march'. :ohno:

Still, I never knew it will have 100 fountains! Might be impressive, if it ever works/exists.

In Leeds you can see it in Holbeck and Beeston - areas of voiceless people left to rot rather than a focus on creating economically vibrant areas.

Well, there is a lot of regeneration going on at the moment in both Holbeck and Beeston.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/meerstone/5911752659/

I guess this voids your entire post.

So regeneration is demolishing entire rows of terraced houses and leaving grassland in their place?

Anyway...

I was printing the Telegraph and Argus last night and apparently the mirror pool has been delayed until December/January (when it should be opening september). T&A are blaming the weather, and unforeseen events such as the 'EDL march'. :ohno:

Still, I never knew it will have 100 fountains! Might be impressive, if it ever works/exists.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9173473.Bradford_City_Park_opening_date_put_back/

Yup, here's the article, lots of excuse making. Not exactly the best time to open it as we're sliding into winter.

No. Regeneration is building towers such as BWP in deprived areas such as Holbeck, as well as the Holbeck Urban Village and Asda HQ. Holbeck is slowly becoming part of the city centre, since, technically, Granary Wharf is in Holbeck too.

Anyway, this is off topic, is it not?

But having Leeds as a large commercial centre has major spinoff benefits for Bradford (as I outlined earlier).

You make it sound as if you've never heard the words "growth pole" before. (Or "trickle-down".)

To get buy-in from Bradfordians for this, as opposed to chasing Bradford's share of the zero-sum game, you need to show that *Bradford* would do better from the Leeds growth pole than it is currently doing from zero-sum. Sure, you've shown *Leeds* will do better that way, but what Bradford needs to know is, what's in it for Bradford? And if the answer is "not much", then Bradford will, in its own self interest, continue to tell Leeds to **** right off. In other words, the City Region needs to offer a more generous trickle-down settlement. Please. Because at the moment...

Bradford's best strategy for regeneration is to improve its cultural offering

Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest an indoor arena, paid for with regional development money? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind.

improve transport so it attracts commuters

Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest a T-bus route, paid for by West Yorks PTE and national money, that goes *west* out of Leeds? Or maybe a cross-Bradford rail connection that would have costs and benefits about the same as the Ordsall Curve? Or maybe people should push for the HS2 terminal to go somewhere in Leeds that allows for onward travel, instead of somewhere like Crown Point Retail park that would benefit only Leeds? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind. (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82449691&postcount=50)

and improve the city centre retail offering just up to the standard of what you'd expect in say, York or Huddersfield.

Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest making Bradford city centre an enterprise zone, instead of sticking the zone way out where nobody can get to it? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind.

The whole point of this world-weary post (for avoidance of doubt) is that pushing the City Region beyond zero-sum will take a shift in the mentality of Leeds people and the City Region bodies that they dominate, just as much as it will take a shift in the mentality of Bradford people. You will have to get used to the idea of sharing.

Regeneration isn't about building towers. True regeneration is physical developments going hand in hand with 'soft' initiatives focused around employment, health, social well-being, community cohesion etc, to improve the overall fortunes of an area.

Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest making Bradford city centre an enterprise zone, instead of sticking the zone way out where nobody can get to it? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind.



Point taken about your other comments, but Bradford City Centre as an EZ was always a non-starter, as the government's criteria were for a cleared site to be put forward.

Bradford City Centre as an EZ was always a non-starter, as the government's criteria were for a cleared site to be put forward.

Sir, surely you jest? Aside from Wastefield, there's not one of the major routes into Bradford that isn't flanked by embarassing acres of bugger-all just before you hit the inner ring road. Just one example, there's hardly a building left standing between Valley Road and Shipley Airedale Road all the way from Wastefield to Queens Road - and a lot of that land was cleared through the tender graces of Yorkshire Forward IIRC.

Edit: In case my reasoning isn't clear, improving the retail offer depends not merely on tarting up empty shops, but also on having customers (duh). Getting people into non-retail jobs in the city centre's 'zone of renewal' would have delivered customers to the shops, and (if you buy into the concept of enterprise zones) an enterprise zone would have catalysed that process.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5162/5225270187_ed706ef153_o.jpg



http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5286/5225867770_24d054b1b9_b.jpg



http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5084/5225867932_b23b5275d5_b.jpg



http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5250/5225868052_7ba509e7dd_b.jpg

I commented on the lack of action, and workers, at the non-paddling pool a few weeks ago, it was obvious it was miles behind schedule, and, on a normal working day, FA was happening. There is more to this story, I am sure........

but what Bradford needs to know is, what's in it for Bradford?

But what can Bradford bring to the negotiating table?

Enjoyed yours and COG's posts today. :)

This may be a hard pill to swallow from our Bradfordian friends, but in the cold light of day, 2 major cities had the opportunity to grow and prosper and Leeds took the initiative and Bradford did not.

Look at the photo's above, look at how Bradford did compete with Leeds 20 or 30 years ago, and look at the reality today.

Bradford, you had the chance to prosper and even become the dominant city in West Yorks, but you didnt for many reasons, and so now Leeds has taken the dominant role and is the economic powerhouse for the LCR.

This may be a hard pill to swallow from our Bradfordian friends, but in the cold light of day, 2 major cities had the opportunity to grow and prosper and Leeds took the initiative and Bradford did not.

Look at the photo's above, look at how Bradford did compete with Leeds 20 or 30 years ago, and look at the reality today.

Bradford, you had the chance to prosper and even become the dominant city in West Yorks, but you didnt for many reasons, and so now Leeds has taken the dominant role and is the economic powerhouse for the LCR.

Bradford WAS the dominant city 30 years ago, oh how times change!

You make it sound as if you've never heard the words "growth pole" before. (Or "trickle-down".)

To get buy-in from Bradfordians for this, as opposed to chasing Bradford's share of the zero-sum game, you need to show that *Bradford* would do better from the Leeds growth pole than it is currently doing from zero-sum. Sure, you've shown *Leeds* will do better that way, but what Bradford needs to know is, what's in it for Bradford? And if the answer is "not much", then Bradford will, in its own self interest, continue to tell Leeds to **** right off. In other words, the City Region needs to offer a more generous trickle-down settlement. Please. Because at the moment...



Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest an indoor arena, paid for with regional development money? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind.



Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest a T-bus route, paid for by West Yorks PTE and national money, that goes *west* out of Leeds? Or maybe a cross-Bradford rail connection that would have costs and benefits about the same as the Ordsall Curve? Or maybe people should push for the HS2 terminal to go somewhere in Leeds that allows for onward travel, instead of somewhere like Crown Point Retail park that would benefit only Leeds? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind. (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=82449691&postcount=50)



Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest making Bradford city centre an enterprise zone, instead of sticking the zone way out where nobody can get to it? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind.

The whole point of this world-weary post (for avoidance of doubt) is that pushing the City Region beyond zero-sum will take a shift in the mentality of Leeds people and the City Region bodies that they dominate, just as much as it will take a shift in the mentality of Bradford people. You will have to get used to the idea of sharing.


I found your post made for very sad reading because it seems to typify the problem Bradford has. My apologies if I'm misreading what you wrote but there seemed to be a theme of Bradford as the victim running all the way through it. That same theme comes through in so much of what emanate from Bradford, especially from the city council.

The fact is that Bradford has suffered a huge amount of industrial blight over the last 40 years. But then so has every other city in the North and the Midlands. Other places have dealt with the problem in a variety of ways but Bradford seems to have cornered the market in blaming others for its continuing economic misfortunes while conveniently forgetting the vast amounts of regeneration funding that have been pumped into the city but successive governments, Conservative and Labour.

Places like Wakefield, Huddersfield, Halifax, even Barnsley, didn't wait for a pat on the head from Leeds. They set about working out how they could capitalise on the success of Leeds and making something from it for themselves. That's not trickle-down, by the way because we all know that doesn't work. Where they've succeeded is in working out how they can use their proximity to Leeds (and Manchester and Sheffield) and making it work to their advantage. And they certainly don't see themselves as subservient to Leeds.

Bradford used to have that get up and go attitude, as evidenced by the picture di Livio posted above of a proud, prosperous Victorian city. It's that entrepreneurial spirit that need to be revived, and nobody outside Bradford's going to do it for you.

You make it sound as if you've never heard the words "growth pole" before. (Or "trickle-down".)

To get buy-in from Bradfordians for this, as opposed to chasing Bradford's share of the zero-sum game, you need to show that *Bradford* would do better from the Leeds growth pole than it is currently doing from zero-sum. Sure, you've shown *Leeds* will do better that way, but what Bradford needs to know is, what's in it for Bradford? And if the answer is "not much", then Bradford will, in its own self interest, continue to tell Leeds to **** right off. In other words, the City Region needs to offer a more generous trickle-down settlement. Please. Because at the moment...

Problem is, many Bradfordians (as evidenced by Bradfordian's posts above) reject the idea of playing second fiddle to Leeds out of hand. If you want to not buy in, fine, but go chasing the dreams of managing to get to a point where Bradford could enter into zero-sum with Leeds. At the moment it can't, and industrial blight has become a cycle of depression as Leeds gets better and better and Bradford gets worse and worse. What's in it for Bradford is climbing out of the shithole it's in now. But to a lot of people, being part of 'Greater Leeds' is too high a price to pay for climbing out of that shithole. Halifax, Huddersfield, Wakefield et al are buying in. It's not Leeds' job to show Bradford how things are going to be exponentially better, it's Bradford's job to realise getting to zero-sum is nearly impossible, and the best thing to do is to buy in to Greater Leeds.

Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest an indoor arena, paid for with regional development money? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind.

I think RDAs should probably give Bradford more money, but GL can't sustain two large arenas, neither can GM, Merseyside, Tyneside or Sheffield CR. A better project would be to bring the Odeon back into use in conjunction with the NMM.

Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe someone should suggest a T-bus route, paid for by West Yorks PTE and national money, that goes *west* out of Leeds? Or maybe a cross-Bradford rail connection that would have costs and benefits about the same as the Ordsall Curve? Or maybe people should push for the HS2 terminal to go somewhere in Leeds that allows for onward travel, instead of somewhere like Crown Point Retail park that would benefit only Leeds? Oh. Sorry. Too late. Never mind.

Firstly, the CBR for the Ordsall curve is way higher than for BCR. However, I do support BCR and think it'd be more beneficial if done in conjunction with reopening Low Moor-Horbury via Cleckheaton, which would give Bradford direct links to Wakefield, Barnsley & Sheffield, as well as great through freight route (easing congestion across Leeds City station throat significantly) and giving a commuter line across Bradford. Include electrifying back to Leeds via Pudsey, down to Sheffield (to meet the MML electrification) and over to Wakefield Kgate and I think the CBR would be much more favourable.

The whole point of this world-weary post (for avoidance of doubt) is that pushing the City Region beyond zero-sum will take a shift in the mentality of Leeds people and the City Region bodies that they dominate, just as much as it will take a shift in the mentality of Bradford people. You will have to get used to the idea of sharing.

I think the first thing we have to do is start recognising our interdependence better, start referring to ourselves as Greater Leeds and go in for funding that way. The reason GM is more succesful is because anything that happens in Manchester isn't just for Manchester, but for GM, that conurbation of 2 million people who live not only in the city but in Stockport, Bury, Bolton etc etc. At the minute we don't think like that, we think of Leeds as Leeds and Bradford, Huddersfield etc as 'that place down the road'.

Once we can start showing that kind of unity for Greater Leeds (pop. 2.8 million) we can start better arguing for funding & tackling infrastructure connectivity problems between our towns & cities, because Huddersfield, Bradford et al are part of Leeds, so we're stronger overall.

Same old from Leeds' loonies. I may be the only one, but im confident Bradford is going to rise from the ashes, or from a hole in the ground, as would be more apt. Another development of student flats that will redevelop Provident's old HQ could be just what is needed to bring much needed people in area near the Sunwin House building which is currently TJ Hughes (possibly closing). I could imagine Sunwin House being turned into accommodation, would be better if its kept in retail use though. I think the fact that a Salford company is choosing Bradford as its first location this side of the pennines shows its not all about Leeds. Leeds has had its boom in my opinion and im only hearing more positive things about Bradford. I think the only way is onwards and upwards. Regardless of what the Leeds briggade thinks. Leeds has similar unemployment rates and plenty of deprived areas still. I also read recently in a paper that Bradford people were more likely to have higher savings than their Leeds counterparts.

Nine-storey building will provide home for hundreds of students in £7 million project

10:00am Thursday 4th August 2011

By Chris Holland »

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One of Bradford’s most prominent commercial buildings is set to be given a new lease of life in a £7 million project to convert it from empty offices into accommodation for 200 students.

FreshStart Living, a Salford-based property developer, has agreed to buy the former Provident Financial head office, Colonnade, on Sunbridge Road, subject to gaining planning permission from Bradford Council.

The project will be the company’s first foray across the Pennines.

FreshStart plans to create 200 en-suite student bedrooms in the nine-storey 1960s building. Each floor will have 24 student rooms, four kitchens and communal areas, with a further eight rooms on the ground floor.

It plans to sell the rooms, priced from £27,500 each, to property investors and will act as the managing agent, collecting rents of £80 to £85 a week.

Local contractors will be used on the conversion and work is expected to start on site in January 2012 and be completed within three months.

Provident vacated the building last September and opened a new head office in the £50 million Southgate development on Thornton Road, where it employs 700 staff and is creating a further 250 jobs at a new call centre.

Stuart Cook, acquisitions manager at FreshStart Living, said: “FreshStart is expanding its portfolio of student accommodation and we have further acquisitions to announce in the coming weeks.

“Student property is an asset class that rarely becomes available to individual investors and student rentals have remained robust with a recorded yearly growth of five per cent over the past six years.”

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/resources/images/1731580/?type=display

So regeneration is demolishing entire rows of terraced houses and leaving grassland in their place?

No, but it's a start in the right direction. They obviously don't intend on leaving the area like that.

Within 20 years, 'Holbeck' won't exist. The CBD will have taken over it.

Buy-to-let rooms, how many of these schemes/scams have bitten the dust in Bradford? Get real, FOR ONCE Harpal. :nuts: Those figures are ludicrous and only an idiot would but a £27k room there! And, only an uber idiot would expect £80 a week for it!

My pal lives in a new Thackley 2 bed apt on Park Road. lt's a lovely area, 5 mins from walks in the woods and down to the canal/river, rent? £400 a month...................

From the start of September the 72 bus that runs between Bradford and Leeds is being increased in frequency

It has only recently been increased to every 10 mins but will now run every 7/8 minutes throughout the daytime.

Same old from Leeds' loonies. I may be the only one, but im confident Bradford is going to rise from the ashes, or from a hole in the ground, as would be more apt. Another development of student flats that will redevelop Provident's old HQ could be just what is needed to bring much needed people in area near the Sunwin House building which is currently TJ Hughes (possibly closing). I could imagine Sunwin House being turned into accommodation, would be better if its kept in retail use though. I think the fact that a Salford company is choosing Bradford as its first location this side of the pennines shows its not all about Leeds. Leeds has had its boom in my opinion and im only hearing more positive things about Bradford. I think the only way is onwards and upwards. Regardless of what the Leeds briggade thinks. Leeds has similar unemployment rates and plenty of deprived areas still. I also read recently in a paper that Bradford people were more likely to have higher savings than their Leeds counterparts.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/resources/images/1731580/?type=display

So in what way are people from Leeds classed as loonies? :ohno: As for Bradford surely as a city it is quite a long way behind Leeds imo and reversing such a gap would be next to impossible imo with Leeds established as a regional centre and de-facto centre for those living in much of Bradford (particularly the Aire Valley and Wharfe Valley towns).

As for student flats at the old Provident HQ good news nonetheless of course to see some development in this day and age although I would like it if all those old mills along Sunbridge Road between the old Provident HQ and Bradford City Centre are restored considering it could potentially be quite a fantastic area (although doesn't it have a bad reputation for prostitution and it was of course the home of the Crossbow Cannibal).

Also there is some small hope for Bradford's branch of TJ Hughes as it will continue to trade for now, as it isn't among the 22 branches of TJ Hughes which will close in the next couple of weeks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14408234

I would still personally struggle to see who could be interested in the Sunwin House / TJ Hughes unit though.

From the start of September the 72 bus that runs between Bradford and Leeds is being increased in frequency

It has only recently been increased to every 10 mins but will now run every 7/8 minutes throughout the daytime.

I hope the last 72 will be leaving Leeds later than 2305! I doubt it though, late night buses in Leeds are non-existent.

No, but it's a start in the right direction. They obviously don't intend on leaving the area like that.

Within 20 years, 'Holbeck' won't exist. The CBD will have taken over it.

I rather doubt the second bit, can't see the city centre expanding out as far as say Holbeck Moor in that amount of time.

You would hope the area won't stay as grassland, not sure what the plans are. Nor am I sure how they select which back to backs are to be demolished, most of the latest round seem to be those which front directly onto the street though. The thing which concerns me is that when you look at the sites where houses have been demolished over the last few years, how many are still vacant with an uncertain future. I remember Low Gipton Crescent (opposite Lidl on Amberton Road) being demolished in the late 1990s and that was eventually replaced, and of course some of the flat roofed houses on South Parkway were replaced almost immediately. But then you look at the other sites in Gipton, and some in Middleton and Halton Moor which have been empty since the mid-late 90s. Add to this the scrapping of the EASEL area action plan (along with the West Leeds Gateway and City Centre) which included many of these sites, lack of funding and the precarious state of the housing market and I can't help but have some reservations.

So in what way are people from Leeds classed as loonies? :ohno:

For the record, if Mr Verde and Mr G.O.City are loonies, then so am I, cos I agree with pretty much everything they wrote. It's interesting to read the emotional arguments from some Bradford people, but maybe you'd think differently if you had a longer perspective (in time) or a wider perspective (geographically) or a deeper perspective (economically).

What I would like both the Leeds loonies and the Bradford loonies to take on board is that Bradford now has less power over its own destiny than at any time in the last century. If there is to be any meaningful regeneration, it will come from outside via whatever crumbs the LEP and PTE and Westfield throw us, and it's them that we need to harass until they actually fulfil their roles.

Idlemoor-I agree, but at the same time i really think the council leaders need to get together and start putting us in the frame more.

I think the most important change would be from a 'West Yorks CC/Leeds CC' to a Greater Leeds council which can take a holistic approach to GL, which is the only way things are going to get done. a Greater Leeds council can join the dots up between our towns and start putting stuff forward for central government funding on that basis.

The first thing I'd look at would be putting forward a package of rail improvements between Leeds, Bradford, Huddesfield & Wakefied, namely:

-Bradford Crossrail
-reopening Low Moor-Horbury (giving Bradford a direct link to Wakefield & Sheffield)
-reopening the Bowling curve (so Leeds-Halifax trains don't have to reverse at Bradford)
-electrify Leeds-Huddersfield, Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey and Leeds-Huddersfield via Halifax

this would give Bradford a much better service to Leeds as well as a dual-branch cross-city line, to Ilkley & Skipton in the north, Huddersfield, Halifax & Wakefield in the south, as well as making it the logical end of an extended service to London via Barnsley & Sheffield, which would be much quicker than the current service.

This could be presented as part of a 'Greater Leeds Metro' train service, with stage-by-stage improvements to services.

Yes, it might well not get built. But it's putting in for funding, with this sot of a public mindset, that is most important if we're to see growth and improvement across Greater Leeds.

Idlemoor-I agree, but at the same time i really think the council leaders need to get together and start putting us in the frame more.

I think the most important change would be from a 'West Yorks CC/Leeds CC' to a Greater Leeds council which can take a holistic approach to GL, which is the only way things are going to get done. a Greater Leeds council can join the dots up between our towns and start putting stuff forward for central government funding on that basis.

The first thing I'd look at would be putting forward a package of rail improvements between Leeds, Bradford, Huddesfield & Wakefied, namely:

-Bradford Crossrail
-reopening Low Moor-Horbury (giving Bradford a direct link to Wakefield & Sheffield)
-reopening the Bowling curve (so Leeds-Halifax trains don't have to reverse at Bradford)
-electrify Leeds-Huddersfield, Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey and Leeds-Huddersfield via Halifax

this would give Bradford a much better service to Leeds as well as a dual-branch cross-city line, to Ilkley & Skipton in the north, Huddersfield, Halifax & Wakefield in the south, as well as making it the logical end of an extended service to London via Barnsley & Sheffield, which would be much quicker than the current service.

This could be presented as part of a 'Greater Leeds Metro' train service, with stage-by-stage improvements to services.

Yes, it might well not get built. But it's putting in for funding, with this sot of a public mindset, that is most important if we're to see growth and improvement across Greater Leeds.

I think the whole transport system in West Yorkshire is pretty dire to be honest. It must be amongst the worst in the country, I think First buses for example have too much of a monopoly on the buses. There needs to be more bus companies. Just go to Manchester and Nottingham and you will be spoilt for choice for buses and plenty of late night buses. Now when you cannot get into Leeds on public transport apart from taxis after 11pm including weekends, that just seems bloody ridiculous. Leeds cannot claim to be cosmopolitan if it cannot provide a good transport system. The failure to bring trams means we have a 3rd world transport system at the moment.

I think the whole transport system in West Yorkshire is pretty dire to be honest. It must be amongst the worst in the country, I think First buses for example have too much of a monopoly on the buses. There needs to be more bus companies. Just go to Manchester and Nottingham and you will be spoilt for choice for buses and plenty of late night buses. Now when you cannot get into Leeds on public transport apart from taxis after 11pm including weekends, that just seems bloody ridiculous. Leeds cannot claim to be cosmopolitan if it cannot provide a good transport system. The failure to bring trams means we have a 3rd world transport system at the moment.


Third world transport? Really? I really can't even begin to say how stupid that comment is. Unless you have been to a third world country then I wish people would stop saying shit like that. If someone from Sudan saw that comment they would probably think how ungrateful you are. :ohno:

I've never had a problem with the buses, they're always on time for me. Maybe I am just lucky, or maybe people complain too much? Also does it matter which type of buses there are ? First or Arriva, it doesn't make a difference to most people. And what idiot goes into town after 11pm? Who would want to? All the stores close way before than anyway and it's pretty scary at night with all the drunks. :|


Oh, and I forgot to mention Bristol. If Leeds has a tram, it would be the largest city in Europe without one. I've been to Bristol a fair few times and the congestion there is dire, a million times worse than in Leeds. ;)

The last thing we need are more bus wars, with operators flooding routes and fares plummeting to totally unsustainable levels until the operator with the most cash wins and things go back to how they were, which is how it almost always ends. The notion of choice in terms of buses has never made sense to me anyway, even where multiple bus operators do run along a given corridor (usually say a city and regional operator) there is often little to choose between. People want to get the first bus which comes but are often penalised due to fares rewarding 'loyalty'.

We need to move towards a properly planned and integrated system, the quality contract proposals from Metro will help enormously if they ever happen.

Some further hope for TJ Hughes / Sunwin House with the Bradford branch not listed among stores (in addition to the 22 previously announced) which will close by the 18th August. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14495613

Still I would presume a closure by the end of this month unless anyone (most likely Lewis's Home Retail who will retain the TJ Hughes brand on stores purchased) manages to takeover more of the remaining stores although I would find it difficult to see who could take the Bradford TJ Hughes on as a going concern, unless it was a particularly highly profitable branch considering location stuck away from the other shops in Bradford (in particular the Kirkgate Centre and proposed Westfield Centre) also at the wrong side of a busy dual carriageway. Surprised no other retailers has appeared to express any interest in any stores yet although I would presume it would be a sign of the poor economy and TJ Hughes possibly having stores in more out of the way locations although I would have thought there would have been interest from the likes of TK Maxx and Primark for stores?

Some further hope for TJ Hughes / Sunwin House with the Bradford branch not listed among stores (in addition to the 22 previously announced) which will close by the 18th August. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14495613

Still I would presume a closure by the end of this month unless anyone (most likely Lewis's Home Retail who will retain the TJ Hughes brand on stores purchased) manages to takeover more of the remaining stores although I would find it difficult to see who could take the Bradford TJ Hughes on as a going concern, unless it was a particularly highly profitable branch considering location stuck away from the other shops in Bradford (in particular the Kirkgate Centre and proposed Westfield Centre) also at the wrong side of a busy dual carriageway. Surprised no other retailers has appeared to express any interest in any stores yet although I would presume it would be a sign of the poor economy and TJ Hughes possibly having stores in more out of the way locations although I would have thought there would have been interest from the likes of TK Maxx and Primark for stores?

I was in there today, the stock is much depleted now. Michael Betts the Opticians on the 3rd floor are going to relocate to another location in the area but not in the City Centre.

Bradford's TJ Hughes has escaped the latest tranche of 12 stores which will close down in the next few days meaning that 42 stores have or will have closed down, 6 stores have been sold to Lewis's Home Retail (but will retain the TJ Hughes brand name), meaning 8 branches including Bradford continue to have an uncertainly for now although I can presumably see an announcement on it's closure made a week or so from now perhaps for a closure of around the bank holiday weekend considering I can't see who could take on the Bradford TJ Hughes as a going concern myself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14563324

If only some Qatari could come along and build a replica.


http://www.northernlifemagazine.co.uk/images/lockwood-and-mawson-kirkgate-market.jpg

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/211744-closure-for-yorkshire-tj-hughes-stores.html?news_section=5
Closure for Yorkshire TJ Hughes stores

25th August 2011
By Chris Barry - Editor, North West

The TJ Hughes flagship store in Liverpool, was one of just six to be sold after the group's administration

ADMINISTRATORS of collapsed retailer TJ Hughes have announced closure dates for the last five remaining stores - two of which are in Yorkshire.

The shops, which will close on August 31, employ 263 people and are based at Doncaster, Bradford, Sunderland, Lichfield and Wrexham.

Ernst & Young partner Tom Jack, joint administrator, said, "A purchaser for these remaining stores was not found, and regrettably we have had to schedule these final store closures.

"We are extremely grateful to the employees and management at all the group's stores for their loyalty and support during this very difficult time.

"During the administration we are pleased to have been successful in selling six TJ Hughes stores, which has safeguarded over 700 jobs across the UK."

Despite this several thousand jobs were lost with the closure of the vast majority, 49, of the TJ Hughes portfolio.

The long-established Liverpool-based group collapsed in early July amid poor trading and big debts.

Last week it emerged that creditors stand to lose £350m - with most of this figure, £310m, owed to landlords.

A further £40m is owed to trade creditors with clothing and merchandise suppliers expected to lose around £25m.

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/211744-closure-for-yorkshire-tj-hughes-stores.html?news_section=5
Closure for Yorkshire TJ Hughes stores

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/4994231644_99095e7834_z.jpg

Certainly a big loss for Bradford and I can almost certainly see no future for Sunwin House / TJ Hughes as a department store (thus joining Busbys and Brown Muffs in the great big department store in the sky) considering it's location and the generally poor state of Bradford's retail offering would surely make this location unattractive for any possible tenants.

I would presume it would be left empty for goodness knows how long before being possibly been eventually converted into office space or residential? Surprised that nationally speaking not more TJ Hughes stores were sold to other retailers though, although I guess it is a sign of the poor state of the economy or perhaps a case of opening stores without having sort out contracts with existing TJ Hughes staff.

Going off on a tangent I wonder if one time but now defunct Leeds retail stalwarts Lewis's or Schofields once ever considered opening in Bradford this would be many, many, many years ago of course.

All of this makes me consider the place of department stores in the regional cities though, and I really feel that a huge part of a city is lost when major department stores go. I'm not so much referring to essentially large clothes stores like TJ Hughes, but full range department stores.

London department stores are fantastic, and while I wouldn't expect such large stores in the regional capitals, there's no reason why similar quality stores like Jenners in Edinburgh can't exist. I know Jenners is HoF now, but still.

All of this makes me consider the place of department stores in the regional cities though, and I really feel that a huge part of a city is lost when major department stores go. I'm not so much referring to essentially large clothes stores like TJ Hughes, but full range department stores.

London department stores are fantastic, and while I wouldn't expect such large stores in the regional capitals, there's no reason why similar quality stores like Jenners in Edinburgh can't exist. I know Jenners is HoF now, but still.

Well even in a lot of regional centres the likes of Kendals in Manchester or Fenwicks in Newcastle are pretty decent retail experiences imo (and yes I know Kendals is a House of Fraser (and is branded as such now) but it seems so much more department store like compared with their Leeds store). It certainly was a shame for Leeds that it has lost its two one time long time department store giants of Schofields and Lewis's / Allders in 1996 and 2005 respectively although I guess reasons would include poor ownership, asset stripping, changing retail trends and not keeping up with what customers want. Also I guess rebranding everything as the same thing (either say a House of Fraser, John Lewis or Debenhams) further lessens the appeal considering one chain department store in say Plymouth could be treated the same as a chain department store in say Aberdeen and gets rid of the idea of local and regional differences between different parts of the UK.

On another note here is the Telegraph and Argus's take on the closure of TJ Hughes. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9217628.53_jobs_lost_as_Bradford_department_store_shuts/

Also yet another stabbing on Ivegate and a decision is due on the proposed Sainsburys supermarket at the former Bradford & Bingley HQ in Bingley. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9217626.Police_aim_to_allay_fears_after_Bradford_stabbing/ http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/airelocal/9217433.Decision_due_on_Bingley_Sainsbury_store/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3128/2847500821_44fc7841bd_z.jpg

I know theres a lot of rough looking bars on Ivegate but this is the latest in an extremely long line of violent crimes on that particular street in Bradford City Centre. Certainly it must be having yet another negative impact on Bradford City Centre to have this street which has such a bad reputation (when I was last in Bradford I clearly recalled the "Police Do Not Cross" tape sealing Ivegate off after presumably another crime of some sort along that road). Certainly it would put anyone off investing there certainly some serious action needs taking place there considering it would surely increase the prospects of such incidents taking place elsewhere in Bradford City Centre if nothing is done about it.

As for Sainsburys, whilst it would be good news for Bingley I guess it would be a bit of a loss to see that Marmite Bradford & Bingley HQ lost and is the proposed Sainsburys just a Supermarket or could it involve other things such as offices, residential etc? Still it would be bad news for the Co-op across the road.

Bradford's TJ Hughes (former Sunwin House) has just seen its last day of trading today. It would be interesting to see what the eventual fate of that building will be although I wouldn't hold my breath.

Also noticed on Look North some egg looking sculpture things have been installed as part of the City Park scheme.

Bradford's TJ Hughes (former Sunwin House) has just seen its last day of trading today. It would be interesting to see what the eventual fate of that building will be although I wouldn't hold my breath.

Also noticed on Look North some egg looking sculpture things have been installed as part of the City Park scheme.

There are rumours at work that Primark were interested in Sunwin House as it has more floor space than where they are now.

I have no idea as to the basis of this though.

Not seen the eggs yet, I'll look tomorrow.

Bradford's TJ Hughes (former Sunwin House) has just seen its last day of trading today. It would be interesting to see what the eventual fate of that building will be although I wouldn't hold my breath.

Also noticed on Look North some egg looking sculpture things have been installed as part of the City Park scheme.

Found this:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9226008.Sculptures_lifted_into_place_in_City_Park_scheme/

A series of sculptures by an award-winning artist were lifted into place today at the £24.4 million City Park amid the construction of the city centre regeneration project.

Wolfgang Buttress has contributed three sculptures, all cast from reconstituted local stone, which measure up to 2.5m high and 4m long. They weigh between 1.5 and 15 tonnes and were being lifted into position outside the Centenary Building via cranes.

The installation is the first artworks at the major Bradford Council scheme which will become a six-acre park and include the biggest man-made water feature in a UK city as well as 100 fountains.

It is designed to create a vibrant public space that supports the local economy.

The sculptures are the first part of the artist’s contribution to City Park, which will also include 10 giant reed-like lighting columns, to be installed at the end of this month.

Councillor David Green, the council’s executive member for Regeneration and Culture, said: “The arrival of these sculptures shows we are getting close to turning City Park from a concept and building site into a fully-functioning landmark.

“City Park is about more than just bricks, mortar and water – it is about creating a positive environment for people to enjoy and interact with and the artworks play a key role in that.”

Read more on this story in Thursday's T&A.

There are rumours at work that Primark were interested in Sunwin House as it has more floor space than where they are now.

I have no idea as to the basis of this though.

Not seen the eggs yet, I'll look tomorrow.

Interesting, although I cannot see it personally considering Sunwin's location psychologically speaking away from the Kirkgate and proposed Westfield sites and across what is rather a busy crossroads / dual carriageway. Alternatively if Primark did expand its presence in Bradford could it perhaps come from extending floorspace at its existing Kirkgate Centre site to perhaps takeover space below it's existing unit such as the vacant former Dolland & Aitchenson unit, Internacionale, Blue Inc and a number of mobile phone shops. Guess an increased size for Primark could perhaps see a welcome refurbishment / reclad for the corner of the Kirkgate Centre it resides (certainly one ugly eyesore although it would be better if the entire Kirkgate Centre was given a massive overhaul or even redevelopment although I cannot see that happen imo) and would of course give the opportunity for stores vacated for Primark to perhaps move elsewhere within Bradford City Centre.

Alternatively I guess a move to Westfield (if it is ever completed of course) or more expansion outside of Bradford could be likely which in addition to proposed stores in Halifax Town Centre and a second Leeds City Centre store at the Trinity Leeds development I guess there could potentially be room for Primark to open in say Keighley or maybe Skipton?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2583/3948607894_9873a5f23b_z.jpg

Also here is the Telegraph & Argus's take on the closure of TJ Hughes completely failing to describe the closure as yet another major negative knock for Bradford as a city centre (and interestingly enough not even allowing comments on the article). I would have thought it would have at least mentioned it was particularly notable as being the flagship of the Bradford based Yorkshire Co-op Sunwin House department stores for many years. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9225826.Bargains_galore_as_city_store_is_shut/

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/resources/images/1762496/?type=display

Is there nothing else on here about this YMCA Culture Fusion building which is not far off completion on Thornton Road next to the Renault garage? http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9233787.City_branch_of_YMCA_links_into_global_network/

The only other pic I could find is on Flickr from May: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fraserj/5799700770/sizes/z/in/photostream/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3582/5799700770_f785be6194_z.jpg

Looks like it could be quite interesting architecturally speaking and at least it is something for that corner of Bradford and quite nicely restores one of Bradford's many old mills.

I go past it almost daily, it is a very interesting looking building. Not sure about the red and white cladding though.

I rememeber seeing in the Bradford masterplan that developement in this area should expose the covered Bradford beck, which I believe runs behind this building. I wonder if that is planned for this project.

Any thoughts on the numbers of bookies in Bradford City Centre with a bid by BetFred bookmakers to open at the former Woolwich Building Society on Kirkgate despite already having a branch at the former Brown Muff / Rackhams / Dillons building on Market Street. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9258057.Fury_at_plan_for_another_bookies_in_city_centre/

I just wonder how bookmakers somehow encounter limitless expansion opportunities although I guess the gaming machines they have would act as a big source of income for them in addition to betting on horses, football etc. Still having bookies open at expense of anything else surely cannot do any favours for any shopping centre imo in terms of attractiveness imo (particularly as the old Woolwich was certainly a prominent unit on Kirkgate across from the Kirkgate Centre and next door to McDonalds) although on the flipside would anyone else be really looking at taking over such retail space in the near future particularly with the potential Broadway development and the overall poor state of Bradford City Centre at present.

Wonder what if anything (unless someone has occupied them already) would ever occupy the also empty former Wharf jewellers and Klick Photopoint shops which lie next to this empty Woolwich / proposed BetFred sites?

Wonder what if anything (unless someone has occupied them already) would ever occupy the also empty former Wharf jewellers and Klick Photopoint shops which lie next to this empty Woolwich / proposed BetFred sites?

There is no longer enough footfall in Bradford of the "right" shopper to support a "nice" independent shop, proven by them all (?) leaving/closing over the past decade. The Klick model is a yesterday business. However, there is still enough footfall of the "right" type of shopper to support yet another bookies. :sad2:

But really, what damage can another bookies do to Bradford when you have the daily nutcase convention that takes place at the bottom of Ivegate?

But really, what damage can another bookies do to Bradford when you have the daily nutcase convention that takes place at the bottom of Ivegate?

Typically very little changes. Betfred in particular are expanding their retail presence, and when they do open near to competing bookmakers the existing ones typically react either with more marketing (Ladbrokes) or a refurb (Hills, Corals). It's not too dissimilar to the increase in the number of mobile phone shops 10 years ago. The problem is historically bookmakers typically opened up in the cheaper ends of towns and cities, not particularly far from banks/post offices, pubs and working mens clubs, and now when new bookmakers open to compete with existing bookies, they unsurprisingly open nearby.

Any thoughts on Positive Bradford Day? http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9282271.Positive_Bradford_Day_may_become_annual_event/

Guess it's something although there are certainly an awful lot of issues which would need rectifying if Bradford is genuinely going to see some sign of improvement in the future and surely an awful lot of action as opposed to positive PR is needed considering im sure there will be an awful lot of cynicism and criticism of the idea of Positive Bradford Day considering it follows on from previous PR schemes such as the 1980s Bradfords Bouncing Back, the 2008 Bradford Capital of Culture bid and the Buy it in Bradford campaign (which completely fails to acknowledge that Bradford has a much weaker shopping offering compared with other nearby centres most especially Leeds).

As for Bradford's Bouncing Back campaign of the 1980s was this (very 1980s looking) David Hockney piece the logo for that? http://denisbloch.com/object.php?name=Hockney&artist_id=34&object_id=836&cat=Print&catid=6&title=A_Bounce_for_Bradford

http://denisbloch.com/pics/hockney__a_bounce_for_bradford.jpg

Wonder how long that scheme went on for? Was it quitely dropped after a couple of years?

On another note is there any news on what could be happening to the former TJ Hughes / Sunwin House department store and any idea on current state of the building since it closed on the 31st August (eg: has the old store been stripped out or has there been any visible sign of decay to the former department store)?

Any thoughts on Positive Bradford Day? http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9282271.Positive_Bradford_Day_may_become_annual_event/

Can anybody give me a list of these 200 companies that attended? Were many of them private companies selling tangible items? Were many of them private companies selling services?

Can anybody give me a list of these 200 companies that attended? Were many of them private companies selling tangible items? Were many of them private companies selling services?

I had a quick look round the stalls, practically all were public sector & third sector stuff.

I had a quick look round the stalls, practically all were public sector & third sector stuff.

Thank you, I suspected as much...........................

Another fire (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9286959.Major_fire_breaks_out_in_Bradford_city_centre/)

:ohno:

Another fire (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9286959.Major_fire_breaks_out_in_Bradford_city_centre/)

:ohno:

Yes, Jury's Inn and Provident have been evacuated. There is no access in or out of the Goitside NCP car park, although there was no hint of trouble when I left at about 10 past six.

Just went around the site of the fire after seeing it raging from miles away coming back from work. It's the old mill on Tetley Street that was due to be redeveloped.

Just found this actually:

Major City Centre Development Opportunity , Thornton Road/Tetley Street , Bradford , West Yorkshire , BD1 2DG .

City centre development opportunity with planning consent granted for 204 student flats = 878 student bed accom. over 14 floors. More info on request.

http://www.markbrearley.co.uk/propertylisting.php

Already having planning consent for student accomodation should raise a few eyebrows. Was previously gonna be redeveloped into this:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9471/thorntonroaddevelopment.jpg

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7340/full914928112jmcalp01si.jpg

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9471/thorntonroaddevelopment.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9471/thorntonroaddevelopment.jpg

And there was also this proposal from the Manor Property Group:

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4469/thorntonroadbradford.jpg

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/9207/thorntonroadstudentresi.jpg

Pretty certain the building in question is listed and very historic. From how it looked when I was down there, it's pretty much a goner. Roof gone, entire walls collapsed etc.

Wish I could say it surprised me. Countless mills have burned down in this area now.

What a shame and disgrace to see the loss of yet another historic old mill in Bradford. So is it someone doing it for the lulz or someone claiming the damages on insurance. Surely something needs to be done imo to prevent more buildings of it's type from being lost forever. :bash:

Is it the derelict building next to the NCP New Southgate Car Park which was lost? http://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=Tetley+Street,+Bradford&hl=en&ll=53.793541,-1.758585&spn=0.006768,0.01929&sll=53.793313,-1.759937&sspn=0.006819,0.01929&vpsrc=0&hnear=Tetley+St,+Bradford+BD1+2,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.793506,-1.758042&panoid=kEfnCFBJZnea8adjuAUv5g&cbp=12,273.76,,0,1.4

Fire, the developer's friend.

The Morley St. Mary's Church fire (http://www.morleyobserver.co.uk/news/local/st_mary_s_church_blaze_still_under_investigation_1_1476640) was never satisfactorily explained.:bleep:

Pretty certain the building in question is listed and very historic. From how it looked when I was down there, it's pretty much a goner. Roof gone, entire walls collapsed etc.

Wish I could say it surprised me. Countless mills have burned down in this area now.

It wasn't listed and with granted planning consents meaning there was no barrier to demolition, what benefit would there be to a developer to burn it down? Even with the insurance money, they are still now responsible for paying to clear what is now a very dangerous site.

There was an exploration of the site posted on the 28DaysLater forum ages ago, which pointed out extensive evidence of drug use and attempted arson on the lower floors of the building. The owners may have been negligent when it came to security, but it's a big leap to accuse them of arson.

Fire, the developer's friend.

The Morley St. Mary's Church fire was never satisfactorily explained.

The developers in question have got a planning application in to rebuild the church (https://publicaccess.leeds.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=LQU1HRJB0FM00) as flats - a much smaller option than the restaurant and hotel scheme that was all but approved when the fire struck - so again, what benefit came to the developers from this fire?

It wasn't listed and with granted planning consents meaning there was no barrier to demolition, what benefit would there be to a developer to burn it down? Even with the insurance money, they are still now responsible for paying to clear what is now a very dangerous site.

I may have confused listed status with the fact the building is very historic and was intended to be renovated by a previous planning application (the first I displayed above), though not sure what the present planning application is, any help?

Now may I ask where I said they burnt it down? There is a thing called willfull negligence which appears perhaps more likely, in not mataining and securing a building under their ownership to an appropriate standard as the building would, under their plans, be demolished anyway.

There was an exploration of the site posted on the 28DaysLater forum ages ago, which pointed out extensive evidence of drug use and attempted arson on the lower floors of the building. The owners may have been negligent when it came to security, but it's a big leap to accuse them of arson.

It might be, I never did.

SirCWilson, the previous pre-fire scheme was massively opposed in Morley. The new scheme less so, it has just appeared in the local rag to a vaguely positive response as it is better than a burnt out hulk or demolition.

That area, the steep short hills from Sunbridge Road (upper) to Thornton Road (lower) is a dead zone during the day never mind the twylight hours. I used to rent space there in the late 80's, the area was on it's knees then but at least had some "life" in it. It's not the first and won't be the last unoccupied mill there to up in flames, just like that....

It was a bog standard mill, a nice stone structure but nothing of special architectural merit. Still, it's a loss to Bradford now it's gone because it'll be replaced with either nothing (likely) or another cheap, steel framed, dismally clad, mcstructure.

I may have confused listed status with the fact the building is very historic and was intended to be renovated by a previous planning application (the first I displayed above), though not sure what the present planning application is, any help?

Now may I ask where I said they burnt it down? There is a thing called willfull negligence which appears perhaps more likely, in not mataining and securing a building under their ownership to an appropriate standard as the building would, under their plans, be demolished anyway.

It might be, I never did.

I got the impression you were implying it, but it was actually the two posts following yours that provoked me to reply. I used your comments to quote because they had more detail in them than the others (for what it's worth, although my focus is Leeds, I always find your detailed posts about Bradford among the most interesting on here). Apologies if it seemed like I was having a go.

I agree with you about the negligence, but I'd wonder whether it isn't cheaper to demolish a substantially intact mill than a fire-damaged and unsafe one. The owners/developers may wish they'd looked after it a bit more carefully when they get the bill.

SirCWilson, the previous pre-fire scheme was massively opposed in Morley. The new scheme less so, it has just appeared in the local rag to a vaguely positive response as it is better than a burnt out hulk or demolition.

It was opposed by local people, but that wasn't going to stop it being approved. If I remember rightly, the planning department had stated conversion of the church to a restaurant was appropriate under a previously refused application, and the only issues were the movement of listed gravestones and the question of a new-build hotel in the churchyard. Neither of those issues were solved when it burned down.

But anyway, Morley isn't Bradford so we can leave that if you like.

Another foot in the mouth job by SCW, he never disappoints my expectations.

Another foot in the mouth job by SCW, he never disappoints my expectations.

Get fucked, you freak.

Get fucked, you freak.

Grow up.

Hey people!

Long time I posted some pictures of my own so I though I'd snap a few whilst I was with my brother in Bradford :)

An assortment of regeneration and... degredation I suppose!

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011023.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011024.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011025.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011031.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011030.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011029.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011028.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011027.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011026.jpg

Quite happy with the way my shitty phone's taken these pictures actually :)

Cultural Fusion have brought a refreshing piece of modernity to the Bradford skyline.

I know it's a massively contentious issue, but the old Odeon building really needs to be pulled down. Nobody is going to invest in it, it's a terrible eyesore and in the grand scale of Bradford's architecture it's not even that important. Accept defeat and move on.

Howcome Yorkshire Forward never picked it up? Too late now obviously.

The towers at each end are good, but the section between them isn't that great.

Yorkshire Forward actually own(ed) the Odeon. They were not interested in any efforts to retain it though.

Cultural Fusion have brought a refreshing piece of modernity to the Bradford skyline.

Think it looks like Lego.

Think it looks like Lego.

It actually looks pretty decent (by Bradford standards) in real life actually, I'd recommend you have a look!

As for the Odeon arguement well, It's a lovely building. The reason why some might find the 'middle' part a tad underwhelming is simply due to the face no naming or ornamental decoration has been applied. I actually loved the New Victoria Hotel (?) glassy front to it, it kept the towers intact and blended in well IMO. Oh well :dunno:

Has anyone any idea if the council is dong anything to attract businesses to the existing empty shop units? The heritage streets have been done up nicely, but surely offering incentives like reduced or 0 business rates for x number of years will attract businesses to set up. Its not like they get any rates from them now, so what's to lose? Something really needs to fill the old Zavvi in particular, its current state makes that area loom dead.

Has anyone any idea if the council is dong anything to attract businesses to the existing empty shop units? The heritage streets have been done up nicely, but surely offering incentives like reduced or 0 business rates for x number of years will attract businesses to set up. Its not like they get any rates from them now, so what's to lose? Something really needs to fill the old Zavvi in particular, its current state makes that area loom dead.

Think that's what the enterprise zone would of done had we got it, would of potentially brought a lot of investment to Bradford, but no......L**ds got chosen over us, surprise surprise!

I know it's a massively contentious issue, but the old Odeon building really needs to be pulled down. Nobody is going to invest in it, it's a terrible eyesore and in the grand scale of Bradford's architecture it's not even that important. Accept defeat and move on.

:ohno: I would have surely thought the golden age of cinema in the Inter War years had bought up many, many notable examples of good architecture of which the Bradford Odeon was certainly one example imo. Certainly it would be a massive loss for Bradford it it were to go in addition to undoubtedly being used either for nothing or for surface car parking for the next goodness knows how many years and it could certainly be revitalised into something else such as perhaps a decent concert or confernece venue.

Think it looks like Lego.

Im liking the look of the Culture Vulture myself. Certainly a good new addition for this end of Bradford.

Think that's what the enterprise zone would of done had we got it, would of potentially brought a lot of investment to Bradford, but no......L**ds got chosen over us, surprise surprise!

Isn't the idea behind Enterprise Zones more to do with encouraging investment in industry (re: Leeds Aire Valley) as opposed to city centres? What happened to all the funding Bradford got from things like Yorkshire Forward, the sale of Leeds Bradford Airport and the EU in a bid to regenerate its city centre which has pretty much all being spent either on small scale stuff on on the Bradford Park.

On another note another potential loss to culture in Bradford with the Bradford Playhouse being put up for sale. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9302465.Bradford_Playhouse_on_the_market/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4406179703_71ffc0b944_z.jpg

It would be a loss if it were to go which while only home to amateur productions it would surely deprive Bradford of a cultural institution. Where else in Bradford could Bradford Playhouse relocate to? All I can think of is perhaps The Studio theatre which is close to The Alhambra?

Wonder if Little Germany being cut off from the rest of Bradford by the Westfield hole being one reason (it is also in certainly a rather blink and you'll miss it location) for the sale of the Bradford Playhouse building.

Why the hell is the odeon not redeveloped as a cinema any ideas?!? Any cinemas near by?

[QUOTE=Yorkshire Boy;84652355]An assortment of regeneration and... degredation I suppose!

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011025.jpg[QUOTE]

this is absolutely criminal. bradford seems to have far too many gorgeous buildings going to waste.... and let's not even talk about everything that has been knocked down already!!! :sad2:

The Odeon is an iconic Bradford building, instantly, along with the Alhambra, identifiable with the City, a lot of the little that remains of Bradford's heart will go along with that structure if it is demolished. At the very least I'd like the towers and domes to be employed in any new structure.

The Playhouse, Bradford centre is pretty much a culture desert, the customers the Playhouse needs either won't go there or don't feel safe going there. The blindingly obvious solution is to go and find space in Saltaire, go to it's potential customers and modern habitat, perhaps within Salts Mill itself, Victoria Hall or even Caroline St social club.

I am not one for play but did frequent it in the '80's for "world cinema", IMO Saltaire would support such screenings along with theatre. It has been totally hopeless at marketing for decades, nobody knows what is "on", they don't appear to advertise anything, anywhere, they preach and involve an ever dwindling band of converts and need to leave central Bradford to progress IMO.

[QUOTE=Yorkshire Boy;84652355]An assortment of regeneration and... degredation I suppose!

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/toml-1991/12102011025.jpg[QUOTE]

this is absolutely criminal. bradford seems to have far too many gorgeous buildings going to waste.... and let's not even talk about everything that has been knocked down already!!! :sad2:

For me that building should be saved, or at least the towers and front......for the bottom half where the doors would of been I'd turn that into a full glass area, nice and bright add some modern class but keep the towers and repair them, they keep saying it's beyond repair etc but they've never come along and said what exactly is wrong with it and why it can't be repaired.

For me that building is much nicer than the Alambrha or it used to be...it really needs to be saved!

Isn't the idea behind Enterprise Zones more to do with encouraging investment in industry (re: Leeds Aire Valley) as opposed to city centres? What happened to all the funding Bradford got from things like Yorkshire Forward, the sale of Leeds Bradford Airport and the EU in a bid to regenerate its city centre which has pretty much all being spent either on small scale stuff on on the Bradford Park.



Even without this Enterprise Zone, surely Bradford can offer some incentives to businesses. I heard on the grape vine that Bradfords business rates are greater than Leeds'!

I personally think the Odeon is ugly.

Oh dear. Bradford Central Library has been suddenly closed down after being identified as a fire risk. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9307901.Bradford_Central_Library_shut_as_serious_fire_risk/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4465345509_6c8ee59cf4_z.jpg

Even though it should re-open in a few days (albiet only the bottom two floors) it would certainly a big loss to lose something as simple as a library from the centre of Bradford although it makes one think if it could have been closed deliberately to avoid paying costs of running it. Certainly if any closure of Bradford Central Library is permanent it would be yet another huge sign of Bradford's decline as a city.

Oh dear. Bradford Central Library has been suddenly closed down after being identified as a fire risk. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9307901.Bradford_Central_Library_shut_as_serious_fire_risk/

Even though it should re-open in a few days (albiet only the bottom two floors) it would certainly a big loss to lose something as simple as a library from the centre of Bradford although it makes one think if it could have been closed deliberately to avoid paying costs of running it. Certainly if any closure of Bradford Central Library is permanent it would be yet another huge sign of Bradford's decline as a city.

I wonder if the Marks and Spencer building could be refurbished into a library once the Westfield site is done? Especially as this building seems to be on the verge of being condemned.

Work on the landmark new footbridge up Manchester Road is starting, the current bridge is being pulled down this weekend.

http://www.bradford.gov.uk/bmdc/regeneration/Connect2+Bridge/bradford_living_street_project

Westfield will be getting some of the money from the second round of the RGF. Does this mean it might actually have a realistic chance of starting?

Westfield will be getting some of the money from the second round of the RGF. Does this mean it might actually have a realistic chance of starting?

Well it could of course just be money pocketed by Westfield even if no development is forthcoming particularly when regeneration money previously given to Bradford has been argubly wasted (re: Yorkshire Forward and EU funding and money made from the sale of Leeds Bradford Airport). http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9335612.Massive_jobs_boost_for_Bradford_city_centre/

Possible plans for Bradford.....well an idea of mine any way! With the Odeon still standing and a lot of debate about how it should be replaced etc.

How about this, Either from a full re-build or keeping the face of the building we get an arena, like Manchester Sheffield etc.....the Metropolitan area for Bradford is massive and a lot of people travel to Manchester or Sheffield for gigs and comedy acts etc, and a lot to leeds for smaller acts.

the demand is certainly there and the location is perfect especially with the mirror pool being built would look great there if done properly.

What's your thoughts?

Possible plans for Bradford.....well an idea of mine any way! With the Odeon still standing and a lot of debate about how it should be replaced etc.

How about this, Either from a full re-build or keeping the face of the building we get an arena, like Manchester Sheffield etc.....the Metropolitan area for Bradford is massive and a lot of people travel to Manchester or Sheffield for gigs and comedy acts etc, and a lot to leeds for smaller acts.

the demand is certainly there and the location is perfect especially with the mirror pool being built would look great there if done properly.

What's your thoughts?

Good idea, but its not big enough to be an arena, more of a concert venue/restaurants/bars probably similar to what is being developed at The Majestic in Leeds.

I think, that if the courts / police station is going to be used for office development (though not in the short term, as the new magistrates court by the other courts isn't going to be happening any time soon), then the Odeon would be brilliant as an arts and entertainment venue. Its certainly something the 'save the odeon' people want. Even if the Odeon building isn't retained, it should be something that is used in the evening to compliment the National Media Museum, Pictureville and the Alhambra.

It'd compliment the public space at city park and the accompanying bars / restaurants etc. Just who would deliver such a project?

Interesting plans for the site from 1989 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradford_timeline/4885434632/in/faves-64764472@N07/) show a whole range of leisure stuff on that site.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9374333.Public_backs___7m_Bradford_rail_station/?ref=ec

http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres/B4B7F11C-2C8B-4899-B716-045513EBB98D/0/002StationLookingEast.jpg

The proposed new station will include:

Approximately 116 space car park, including dedicated Blue Badge-holder parking spaces, and cycle parking
Fully accessible platforms with footbridge, staircases and ramps
CCTV
Passenger information displays and public address system
Modern waiting shelters
Direct access to/from the Spen Valley Greenway

This is good news for Rail travel in Bradford, would like to see it built quicker than 2013/14 though. The actual design reminds of Pudsey train station, a bit dull, but at least it will be functional. Together with City park and Westfield going back on site, we may see some value added to this city. If the number of jobs involved are actually created.

I don't think it could be brought forward much more than 2013- if it started construction tomorrow, it'd take the best part of 2012 to build it.

Also, are 116 spaces enough? So many car parks at Metro/CR stations are oversubscribed with parking spilling into neighbouring streets- perhaps this should be future-proofed with more spaces.

Its looks to be a mostly industrial area so there is potential to expand the car park I would guess, should this be a success. I wish they'd build a Manningham and Laisterdyke station as well. That would help Bradfords roads.

Its has been said, but Bradford's curry empire is not represented in the centre, to say we are the curry capital as well! I know for a fact that many peole come from all over to eat at the likes of Akbars and Saffron and Aagrah. Surely it would make sense for one of these chains to open a unit in the 'banana'.

Its has been said, but Bradford's curry empire is not represented in the centre, to say we are the curry capital as well! I know for a fact that many peole come from all over to eat at the likes of Akbars and Saffron and Aagrah. Surely it would make sense for one of these chains to open a unit in the 'banana'.

Hasn't one opened and closed already there?

Hasn't one opened and closed already there?

There were 2 actually, Tulsi which was Indian and Chinese vegetarian, and Markaz which was Indian / Arabic. Markaz I think was poorly publicised, and Tulsi had a very small market, but it was construction of the city park that killed them in the end IMO.

My point was that we need a big name restaurant such as Akbars, which draw customers from all over.

There were 2 actually, Tulsi which was Indian and Chinese vegetarian, and Markaz which was Indian / Arabic. Markaz I think was poorly publicised, and Tulsi had a very small market, but it was construction of the city park that killed them in the end IMO.

My point was that we need a big name restaurant such as Akbars, which draw customers from all over.

Markaz was the one I was thinking of. I think it'd need a BIG name to get people to go to the trouble of parking and walking when Leeds Road and it's plethora of curry restaurants is so close, not to mention the Aagrah at Midpoint and Shipley. I'd take an Aaghrah or Akbars over a Nando's though, anyday. Be great if an independent estabished business like Mamma Mia's could move there.

A Poundworld Express has opened up on Ivegate in addition to their full size Poundworld on Kirkgate. http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/business-news/business-headlines/retailer_launches_stores_initiative_1_3998352

Is this at the old Klick Photopoint? Certainly the only type of store I can see opening on Ivegate at the moment though which is certainly in a poor state and with a poor reputation with regular violent incidents and other criminal acts.

Pound shops, or the big ones like Poundland and Pound World are usually pretty good for footfall. Though there's a Pound World and Poundland already within about 200m of there. I like the idea of a pound world express, as I go to the Pound World in Huddersfield to buy nothing more than pop or biscuits and have to queue up behind people spending upwards of 30 quid and many items.

Ivegate is a great little hilly cobbled street, and is at the end of the 'world mile'... but it seems to be the charity shop haven and one of the clubs up there, not the Gasworks but the other one, seems to have lots of anti social behaviour issues.

Pound shops, or the big ones like Poundland and Pound World are usually pretty good for footfall. Though there's a Pound World and Poundland already within about 200m of there. I like the idea of a pound world express, as I go to the Pound World in Huddersfield to buy nothing more than pop or biscuits and have to queue up behind people spending upwards of 30 quid and many items.

Ivegate is a great little hilly cobbled street, and is at the end of the 'world mile'... but it seems to be the charity shop haven and one of the clubs up there, not the Gasworks but the other one, seems to have lots of anti social behaviour issues.

I've got to say, as a former native to Bradford, I've always felt that Ivegate is a dump but coming to think of it, it is a beautifully cobbled hilly area that is reflectant of the bradford region. If only it had better tennants and a bit of investment.

Nowadays, the greatest part of Bradford is the area around the wool exchange and the bottom of darley street. Ivegate is only round the corner and a bit of investment and better tennants could help change the perception of the area,, yet ive never heard a murmur from any bradford official bout this part of the city centre. Unless its bad press due to anti-social behaviour or gambling licenses.

Charity to offer wide range of services to vulnerable children from city centre office http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9386978.NSPCC_opens_child_protection_centre/

Maybe Eastbrook Hall will be put to good use as The NSPCC Service Centre for Bradford. Why they weren't there already is beyond me?, any ideas on the scale of their presence in Eastbrook Hall? which I believe is fully occupied residentially, but has struggled commercially.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9386766.Yorkshire_Building_Society_to_take_on_120_new_staff/
On the jobs front YBS, the second largest Building society in the UK, is creating a further 120 jobs. Allbeit off Rooley Lane, if the council can give a loan to the Jury's Inn, I don't see why they cannot give one to YBS to open an impressive purpose built headquarters in the city centre or in a renovated old mill building. This would increase footfall and revenues in the city centre and possibly attract more businesses. The Council needs to get with the times and be attracting at least 1 big FTSE 100 style corporation to open an office in the centre every year in my opinion.

We should have a large vibrant business district by now, but are being let down by poor leadership. Other cities are capable of attracting much more when they cannot offer half what we can. We all know the standards of living are much cheaper here, workforces can be paid a great deal less that down sarf, but we are sold very short. Of course this all seems pie in the sky with these stupid councillors who have as much business nous as Rodney Trotter.

[B]if the council can give a loan to the Jury's Inn, I don't see why they cannot give one to YBS to open an impressive purpose built headquarters in the city centre or in a renovated old mill building.

They already have an impressive purpose built headquarters in the city.
http://www.ybs.co.uk/images/your_society/head_office.jpg

Great, as the council are strapped for cash, maybe they could borrow money from YBS so they can give YBS a loan to take out a mortgage with Accord mortgages to build a shiny new HQ. Problem solved.

[B]The Council needs to get with the times and be attracting at least 1 big FTSE 100 style corporation to open an office in the centre every year in my opinion.

How much do you think they should add to your Council Tax to bribe these businesses to come here?




The new jobs are to be welcomed of course, so long as they don't all go bust or get bailed out when the Eurozone blows up.

I wonder if they could encourage Morrisons and Seabrooks to take up space in the proposed business forest?

Before:

http://www.propertypilot.co.uk/ppimages/129+1410.jpg

After:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6109/6262157696_0ac8c95181_z.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7168/6427219339_839a57948e_z.jpg

The Premier Inn hotel in Bradford City Centre is now open. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/business/business_news/9407308.__10_5m_hotel_is_opened_in_Bradford_city_centre/?ref=ec http://www.premierinn.com/en/checkHotel/BRACEN/bradford-central

Good news of getting the former Broadacre House office building into a new use although I do personally wonder what the occupancy rate is for Bradford hotels myself with the Premier Inn and Jurys Inn opening relatively recently adding to the Holiday Inn Express, Hilton, Midland and Great Victoria Hotels compared with other towns and cities? There is of course also a Travelodge proposed for Bradford City Centre.

http://www.barnfieldconstruction.co.uk/assets/bradford-travelodge-04-380x270.jpg

It's an improvement.. but I think it looks awful

There is of course also a Travelodge proposed for Bradford City Centre.

The travel lodge is is already under construction near forster square and is coming along nicely. For such a big city Bradford is under serviced by hotels, there are very few. Maybe because of the lack of attractions/business clients that would use the hotels. They are a bit cheesey (especially bigger chains) but they are well run businesses that can invest, will invest, produce jobs, not shut down easily and thats the type of businesses needed in Bradford atm.

Neither the travelodge or premier in are particularly pretty. What is it with modern architects? Do they have no imagination or taste? However they are both great for the town centre.

JJB Sports on the Forster Square retail park closed down about 2-3 weeks ago, but immediately after closing the workmen arrived and it is now about to open as 'Discount UK'

On one hand good that it isn't being left as an empty unit, on the other hand, it's yet another downmarket bargain store sitting alongside the other 100 in Bradford!

JJB Sports on the Forster Square retail park closed down about 2-3 weeks ago, but immediately after closing the workmen arrived and it is now about to open as 'Discount UK'

On one hand good that it isn't being left as an empty unit, on the other hand, it's yet another downmarket bargain store sitting alongside the other 100 in Bradford!

On the plus side, Discount UK is based in Normanton (they're part of Poundworld). And despite having it's fair share of dross the one in the St Johns Centre in Leeds (also formerly a sports store) genuinely has the odd bargain in there.

I was in Bradford last night, 7.50pm I parked up on North Parade. I walked to the Forster Sq station to meet my son then back up to Mamma Mias for a family meal. There was not one other person on those streets.

20 years ago it would have been busy, with 4 nightclubs within 50 yards of Mamma Mias also busy later. I honestly don't see how things will get better/busier, the amenties have got to be in place before people return but the amenities are getting fewer.

Mamma Mias was quiet but as good as it ever was. :)

Why is Bradford Interchange closed on December 26th Boxing day and 1st January New Years day. Surely some people would want to travel to and from Bradford in this busy holiday season?

Why is Bradford Interchange closed on December 26th Boxing day and 1st January New Years day. Surely some people would want to travel to and from Bradford in this busy holiday season?

On Boxing Day there's only the 72 bus to Leeds and 363 to Huddersfield, no trains run on Boxing Day. The Boxing Day bus service is a relatively new thing that Metro have arranged for the last couple of years. There used to be no public transport in West Yorkshire (bar a couple of special volunteer services) on Boxing Day.

On New Years Day, trains run a normal Sunday service (although it's limited before 8am), no buses run on New Years Day.

Depressing that there have been two more mill fires over the Christmas period losing yet more of Bradfords industrial heritage with fires at mills by the Thornton Road / Preston Street junction to the west of the city centre and Factory Street to the south east of Bradford in Dudley Hill near the A6177 / A650 junction. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-16345156 http://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=Factory+Street,+Bradford&hl=en&ll=53.774055,-1.727815&spn=0.006772,0.01929&sll=53.795531,-1.777382&sspn=0.027072,0.077162&vpsrc=6&hnear=Factory+St,+Bradford+BD4+9NW,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.775251,-1.726624&panoid=vwCejOIUG0A6l_Aa53iW3g&cbp=12,200.47,,1,-3.2 http://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=Preston+Street,+Bradford&hl=en&ll=53.797381,-1.770022&spn=0.006464,0.01929&sll=53.775251,-1.726624&sspn=0.006822,0.01929&vpsrc=0&hnear=Preston+St,+Bradford,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.797315,-1.769918&panoid=V9bHLL67Quz7IpXqznyVDQ&cbp=12,67.6,,0,-13.49

So is anything going to be done to prevent such fires or is it a case of apathy / indifference on the part of the authorities considering once buildings are lost, they are of course lost forever?

I'm not too sure how much this can be blamed on the authorities, the buildings' owners on the other hand should be keeping them secure enough to prevent such things from happening.

When these sorts of buildings are under-occupied or engaged in a lower value kind of use, it might well engender a certain indifference in their owners. Most of them are probably not capable of seeing the majesty and historic value usually present in such buildings either, viewing them merely as another demand on their resources rather than something to be cherished. Precisely what we can do about this I'm not too sure, they are becoming less attractive for industrial use as more modern and accessible, low maintenance, single storey buildings become available and high value uses are harder to attract in low value or economically depressed areas. Hopefully solutions will start to be found before too much more is lost. Even listing or being in a conservation area is no safeguard when these things happen as we well know, since there is no way of funding any massive repairs or reconstruction.

Not a great pic, but this is how the Travelodge is looking at the moment:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6653531615_ae0d40dc6b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradford1/6653531615/)
Travelodge under construction (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradford1/6653531615/) by tombarrett19 (http://www.flickr.com/people/bradford1/), on Flickr

I've also set up a page / blog called Bradfordia (http://bradfordia.blogspot.com), trying to find people who are interested in promoting and improving the city centre. No idea where that will go!

I heard some news that Royal Mail are planning on moving many of their operations out of lower Kirkgate (next to the Broadway development) and relocating them to their facilities near Tesco.

Its been talked about in the past but by this news (provided by employees there) will surely mean they are planning on closing the site. If so, (being next to the shopping centre and little germany) it looks like this will open up a key city centre site in the future. The timescale is years though.

I heard some news that Royal Mail are planning on moving many of their operations out of lower Kirkgate (next to the Broadway development) and relocating them to their facilities near Tesco.

Its been talked about in the past but by this news (provided by employees there) will surely mean they are planning on closing the site. If so, (being next to the shopping centre and little germany) it looks like this will open up a key city centre site in the future. The timescale is years though.

I thought the Royal Mail are meant to be centralising their sorting office operations for West Yorkshire to Stourton, Leeds with their Bradford sorting office among possibly some others closing down as a result.

On another note the proposed Nandos at Centenary Square has been given approval and should open by the end of February. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9469389.Nando_s_gets_go_ahead_to_open_new_Bradford_restaurant/

Certainly good news for Bradford to see a second city centre Nandos open up as it will hopefully attract footfall.

Nando's coming to Bradford: http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/271649-rushbond-scheme-creates-jobs.html

I thought the Royal Mail are meant to be centralising their sorting office operations for West Yorkshire to Stourton, Leeds with their Bradford sorting office among possibly some others closing down as a result.

On another note the proposed Nandos at Centenary Square has been given approval and should open by the end of February. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9469389.Nando_s_gets_go_ahead_to_open_new_Bradford_restaurant/

Certainly good news for Bradford to see a second city centre Nandos open up as it will hopefully attract footfall.

Yes they were on about relocating it to Leeds but that ideas on ice now I've been told and I doubt its going to happen. Even if they did move the sorting office to Leeds many operations like the collection and distribution of the mail may still be operated from Bradford.

Nandos is great news for the park. Hopefully it will attract a better class of person the park needs imo. I was in lloyds bar at the weekend and the place was mainly inhabited by alcholic, middle-aged all day drinkers that were out of it at two o'clock. Its unattractive and uncomfortable to be around such a crowd and seriously puts me off going to the city park for a drink.

Nandos is great news for the park. Hopefully it will attract a better class of person the park needs imo. I was in lloyds bar at the weekend and the place was mainly inhabited by alcholic, middle-aged all day drinkers that were out of it at two o'clock. Its unattractive and uncomfortable to be around such a crowd and seriously puts me off going to the city park for a drink.

Those drinkers are there a lot earlier than that!

Not sure about Nandos' atttacting a better class of customer? It's another McChain selling cheap, pre-made, fast food. I went to The Sparrow last week on North Parade, now that had a better class of customer to most Bradford pubs, it wasn't cheap either..................I wish an independent could afford to move into Centenery Square, just look what has happened in Sataire, Bradford centre needs the people that frequent Saltaire for leisure to visit the centre.

Those drinkers are there a lot earlier than that!

Not sure about Nandos' atttacting a better class of customer? It's another McChain selling cheap, pre-made, fast food. I went to The Sparrow last week on North Parade, now that had a better class of customer to most Bradford pubs, it wasn't cheap either..................I wish an independent could afford to move into Centenery Square, just look what has happened in Sataire, Bradford centre needs the people that frequent Saltaire for leisure to visit the centre.

Agreed, I doubt Nando's will bring a better class of customer into Centenery Square. Might I also add there is already a Nando's no more than 5 minutes walk away in the Leisure Exchange - at least there was the last time I looked.

Still I like Portuguese peri-peri chicken so It's a welcome addition to this particular part of the city for me.

Mark - although I would love to see a classy independant bar operate from one of the bannana units, I doubt they'll deem it viable in the current climate. If the Odeon scheme goes ahead and the business forest becomes reality then the addition of more grade A office space - assuming they are occupied - should raise the viability of an "up market" bar due to a slightly more affluent clientele. Don't hold your breath!!

I suppose one of the main problems for bar operators in Bradford is that a sizeable proportion of the population doesn't drink. Whilst the Sparrow looks great (want to visit it soon) and there are some fine pubs in outlying parts of Bradford, I'd not be too certain there's enough of a market for many more nightspots in the city.

Agreed, I doubt Nando's will bring a better class of customer into Centenery Square. Might I also add there is already a Nando's no more than 5 minutes walk away in the Leisure Exchange - at least there was the last time I looked.

Mark - although I would love to see a classy independant bar operate from one of the bannana units, I doubt they'll deem it viable in the current climate. If the Odeon scheme goes ahead and the business forest becomes reality then the addition of more grade A office space - assuming they are occupied - should raise the viability of an "up market" bar due to a slightly more affluent clientele. Don't hold your breath!!

Yes, Nando's is not going to be visited by "spenders". I was in Salts Mill today at 2pm, the restaurant was very busy, noisy, full of life. Now as much as I like Saltaire, there aint that much to do there on a rainy grey afternoon. I bet 90% of those diners were not local, but people who had made a trip specfically to enjoy the food and surroundings. If Saltaire can do it..............:)

I suppose one of the main problems for bar operators in Bradford is that a sizeable proportion of the population doesn't drink. Whilst the Sparrow looks great (want to visit it soon) and there are some fine pubs in outlying parts of Bradford, I'd not be too certain there's enough of a market for many more nightspots in the city.

Great pubs in the suburbs yes, can't think of one decent "pub" left in the centre itself, maybe the Shoulder of Mutton? The Sparrow is very busy on Bradford City match days, packed out, I don't know what the footfall is at other times but I hope that they do well. It is a lovely bar but depressing to think that it is a novelty in Bradford but similar bars are ten a penny in Leeds.

Nandos? Spenders? I dunno, Premier League footballers love Nandos, they're rich. I think the best bit for Centenary Square would be getting the likes of TGI Fridays and Pizza Express in and perhaps one of the local restaurants like Akbars or Zouk.

For independent bars etc, I'd love to see Market Street accommodating some of these. The Old Bank could be brought back into use and about 75% of the shops are vacant and could be brought back into use as bars and cafés... There'd need to be some assistance / incentive for this to happen though*. I just love the idea of a lively Market Street complimenting the new retail at Westfield (when / if...) and it would be nice to have some life in the area at night that links up the Interchange and Forster Square.

City Vaults is a decent pub in the city centre, I keep meaning to go up to the New Beehive too which is supposed to be a good boozer. I think the Sparrow acts as a destination in itself and is always just nicely busy when I've been in.




*so it probably won't happen

But we don't have any PL footballers in Bradford. :) And when we did, they "played out" in Leeds. Nandos is better than an empty unit and it won't go bust (a big positive for Bradford) but I don't think it'll attract the people Bradford needs (IMO) in it's centre.

I forgot about the City Vaults, yes a good pub, good beer selection, good food and a decent atmosphere. That is another pub that I only know from City match days, it's very busy, I don't know how it does in "normal" hours.

But we don't have any PL footballers in Bradford. :) And when we did, they "played out" in Leeds. Nandos is better than an empty unit and it won't go bust (a big positive for Bradford) but I don't think it'll attract the people Bradford needs (IMO) in it's centre.

I forgot about the City Vaults, yes a good pub, good beer selection, good food and a decent atmosphere. That is another pub that I only know from City match days, it's very busy, I don't know how it does in "normal" hours.


Looked to be a decent amount of punters in when ever i've been in mate.

Ginger Goose is a decent boozer, good value and very nice food.

Nandos is about £20per head inc. drinks and its popular with a lot of students. I doubt the day drinkers I was talking about would be willing to pay that. So when I said 'better class' I actually meant it, not upper class or even white collar lol.

I do agree a high class restaurant/bar is needed but as already stated that may not come until business clientele come first. The city is terrible for bars though and only seems so host run down pubs.

If I goto Leeds its usually to call lane because that offers what Bradford cant give you. A run of trendy bars with decent people inside them offering good atmosphere. Most party-goers in bradford usually go from wibsey/clayton/shipley --> Bradford at about 1 o'clock.

I also agree that market street/city park would be a good area for these types of bars once developments occur

Nandos is about £20per head inc. drinks and its popular with a lot of students. I doubt the day drinkers I was talking about would be willing to pay that. So when I said 'better class' I actually meant it, not upper class or even white collar lol.

I do agree a high class restaurant/bar is needed but as already stated that may not come until business clientele come first. The city is terrible for bars though and only seems so host run down pubs.

If I goto Leeds its usually to call lane because that offers what Bradford cant give you. A run of trendy bars with decent people inside them offering good atmosphere. Most party-goers in bradford usually go from wibsey/clayton/shipley --> Bradford at about 1 o'clock.

I also agree that market street/city park would be a good area for these types of bars once developments occur

Can't say i'm a regular mate and obviously it depends on what you order but it cost me no more than a tenner

Nandos is about £20per head inc. drinks and its popular with a lot of students. I doubt the day drinkers I was talking about would be willing to pay that. So when I said 'better class' I actually meant it, not upper class or even white collar lol.

I do agree a high class restaurant/bar is needed but as already stated that may not come until business clientele come first. The city is terrible for bars though and only seems so host run down pubs.

If I goto Leeds its usually to call lane because that offers what Bradford cant give you. A run of trendy bars with decent people inside them offering good atmosphere. Most party-goers in bradford usually go from wibsey/clayton/shipley --> Bradford at about 1 o'clock.

I also agree that market street/city park would be a good area for these types of bars once developments occur

I agree with Leedunited Paul, I bet the average per head Nando spend is about £10, not £20, for that you can go and get somebody to actually cook your food. :)

It would be a fantastic for an independent to open in or around Centenery Sqaure but it's not going to happen, rent and start up costs will only make it viable for chains from now on because as you say the clientele are not there. They won't come before the attractions/facilities though that's for sure.

Arts organisation Fabric are to takeover the former Virgin Megastore / Zavvi unit on Tyrell Street. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9488081.Arts_centre_plan_for_empty_Bradford_city_centre_shop/

Interesting use for what was once part of the Brown Muff / Rackhams department store provided it is of good quality. Certainly makes a change from the likes of Poundland or BetFred.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Zavvi%2C_Bradford.jpg/450px-Zavvi%2C_Bradford.jpg

Arts organisation Fabric are to takeover the former Virgin Megastore / Zavvi unit on Tyrell Street. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9488081.Arts_centre_plan_for_empty_Bradford_city_centre_shop/

Interesting use for what was once part of the Brown Muff / Rackhams department store provided it is of good quality. Certainly makes a change from the likes of Poundland or BetFred.



Hmm, good and bad for me. I am pleased to see any unit brought back to life and delighted to see (hopefully) some culture in the City centre. I am not so sure that 30k of tax payers money should be used to fund an "art space" in the present economic climate. I'd feel happier if one of the two floors and half the cash was made available to other (non art) start ups, perhaps with more potential to become viable businesses.

Hmm, good and bad for me. I am pleased to see any unit brought back to life and delighted to see (hopefully) some culture in the City centre. I am not so sure that 30k of tax payers money should be used to fund an "art space" in the present economic climate. I'd feel happier if one of the two floors and half the cash was made available to other (non art) start ups, perhaps with more potential to become viable businesses.

30k? More than that is given to people on benefits!! 30k is nothing compared to the life it will breath into an important city centre building.

Would be nice is all the empty shop units on the 'heritage streets' got filled with small independant shops. Maybe shops like Northern Drum Centre, discovery, and mannings musicals on westgate would do well to move here, espcially if they get rate relief.

Definitely £10 per head, not £20.

Property Consultancy GVA are to manage Arndale House on Bradford. http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/yorkshire/66026-/

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3389/5829087025_7df4cf38d1_z.jpg

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/179/412728826_8e133bd157_z.jpg

Does this building still have scaffolding over it? Still at least it means one of the few notable office buildings in Bradford has a future for now although of course many if not most of the retail units are vacant with the remaining part of Broadway it is part of slowly dying off due to the lack of any development on the Westfield shopping centre (I haven't been to Bradford for a while, is there anyone other than Greggs and Brighthouse who occupy space on the ground floor of Arndale House as I believe the likes of Bon Marche, Stead & Simpson, Half Price Jewellers and even Everything £1 have closed).

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3157/2815031047_9e0e4b1f17_z.jpg?zz=1

It is however a building of quality for it's era although it had quite disgracefully replaced the Swan Arcade back in the 1960s.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4133/5208707166_e6b20b595e_z.jpg

Reading a few articles in the T&A in the last few days, the councillors seem hell bent on ignoring the calls of the public and retailers and want to take away free on street parking.

Yes, Bradfords parking is cheap, and yes it needs to be better managed, but they seem to miss the point that they need to encourage people into the town centre! Charging where it is currently free will only do the opposite!

The parking charges would make sense after Bradford has improved as a retail centre and increased footfall, but now is not the time!! Its so infuriating.

Reading a few articles in the T&A in the last few days, the councillors seem hell bent on ignoring the calls of the public and retailers and want to take away free on street parking.

Yes, Bradfords parking is cheap, and yes it needs to be better managed, but they seem to miss the point that they need to encourage people into the town centre! Charging where it is currently free will only do the opposite!

The parking charges would make sense after Bradford has improved as a retail centre and increased footfall, but now is not the time!! Its so infuriating.

I agree, right now it's crazy to implement any more parking charges. The centre is dying (will die IMO), I'd scrap all parking charges, all restricions and yellow lines in the centre. Somebody else made a salient point regarding cars and pedestrianised zones in Bradford, after 5 it is a dead zone, let/encourage people in, with cars if they want!

To be fair, parking is free currently after 4.30pm.

Just going back to the bars/restaurants debate – I genuinely feel this is potentially an area in which Bradford can better distinguish itself from Leeds .
As it stands, Leeds is (and has established itself as) a nightlife and trendy bar city. Great for their night-time economy, but really not to everyone’s taste. Recent trends have seen a rise in popularity of little indie real ale bars (like the Sparrow) thriving. Surely if we can encourage more of this in the centre (and less of the chains and rubbish ‘swanky’ bars with awful names like ‘ignite’ or ‘bliss’) then we will set ourselves apart from other cities. And with the new City Park space, we could host the best ale festival in the country!

There's not enough business in Bradford centre for lots of 'Sparrow' type places, asian communities have routed many good pubs from local areas and the city centre won't be exempt as the population grows, now if you can persuade them to drink beer it would be another matter...There's not a chance of Bradford holding an ale festival.

Just going back to the bars/restaurants debate – I genuinely feel this is potentially an area in which Bradford can better distinguish itself from Leeds .
As it stands, Leeds is (and has established itself as) a nightlife and trendy bar city. Great for their night-time economy, but really not to everyone’s taste. Recent trends have seen a rise in popularity of little indie real ale bars (like the Sparrow) thriving. Surely if we can encourage more of this in the centre (and less of the chains and rubbish ‘swanky’ bars with awful names like ‘ignite’ or ‘bliss’) then we will set ourselves apart from other cities. And with the new City Park space, we could host the best ale festival in the country!

We don't really have any swanky bars so I reckon a few would be welcome. No more chains like llyods or spoons though please!

The problem with Bradford is that theres not a run of pubs/bars anywhere. Theres the area where all the clubs are but theres not many pubs/bars for the older crowd there anywhere. The sparrows miles away, as is the corn dolly... city vaults and the shoulder of mutton are probs the two closest. Meanwhile lloyds is too big and seems to take all the custom in and around the park. Call lane in leeds has a nice little run and there similar runs in sauchiehall street (glasgow), one in liverpool, one in newcastle, manchester has the northern quater and I hear theres a good run in wakefield. If there was an epicentre for the city centres pubs then people from outside areas would no where togo instead of having to roam around town looking for the next boozer.

I have to agree though, the city park should be used for events like that. Hopefully stuff like that will draw people in from wider areas not just from the inner city estates.

I agree, right now it's crazy to implement any more parking charges. The centre is dying (will die IMO), I'd scrap all parking charges, all restricions and yellow lines in the centre. Somebody else made a salient point regarding cars and pedestrianised zones in Bradford, after 5 it is a dead zone, let/encourage people in, with cars if they want!

I understand the sentiment but that would be a very bad idea. You would end up with workers parking there all day for nothing so the shoppers couldn't, and rather a lot of difficulties with junctions, passing etc. Would also be good if public transport fares could be kept sane (maybe Metro might be able to sort it with Quality Contracts one day) and not undermine the viability of it too much with traffic problems etc, because on top of its potential efficiency etc a lot of people won't be able to afford cars and you can't really go out drinking or whatever when you're driving.

There's not enough business in Bradford centre for lots of 'Sparrow' type places, asian communities have routed many good pubs from local areas and the city centre won't be exempt as the population grows, now if you can persuade them to drink beer it would be another matter...There's not a chance of Bradford holding an ale festival.


Well, I myself live on Brick Lane in London (massive non-drinking population in Tower Hamlets) but the area still manages to have a thriving pub scene. Of course, there is more of an historic pull to this area – but it's proof high Asian populations don't necessarily have to mean that all the businesses are 'dry.'

If westfield goes ahead and the inevitable 'high-street' shift to Broadway happens, I think the historic streets (hustlergate/darley etc) should be re-positioned as a high-quality food and drink area. Leave the west End to the WKD knobs and let the quality old buildings house something a bit spesh. How wonderful would that be?

I understand the sentiment but that would be a very bad idea. You would end up with workers parking there all day for nothing so the shoppers couldn't, and rather a lot of difficulties with junctions, passing etc. Would also be good if public transport fares could be kept sane (maybe Metro might be able to sort it with Quality Contracts one day) and not undermine the viability of it too much with traffic problems etc, because on top of its potential efficiency etc a lot of people won't be able to afford cars and you can't really go out drinking or whatever when you're driving.

When I said I'd like "all restrictions" removed, I didn't mean give carte blanche to renegade car drivers! :lol:

The place is dead, there are yellow lines out front of many dead shops, let people park there if they want to, for an hour say. Bradford centre needs people!

Public transport has been done to death, most people have cars and they want to use them, btw most of my shopping trips are done on a scooter or cycle. I could bang on and on about 170mpg, free road tax and how fit & healthy I am but it won't make a jot of difference to 95%+ of car owners.

A report out today - Retailers closed 14 high street shops a day in 2011, and the rate of closures is expected to rise, as half of retail leases in the UK come up for renewal by 2015.

Stores selling books, electrical items, home furnishings, menswear and holidays were the hardest hit, along with off-licences, bars and pubs. And in a reflection, pound stores, charity shops, credit unions, supermarkets, pawnbrokers and retailers selling convenience food all increased their store numbers.

Retailers are now heading for out of town locations which have free parking and lots of shoppers!

What do Bradford Council go and do?...vote to increase the number of charged parking zones in the city centre and pay for the meter's before formal approval, which as it happens has now been approved!

Its not looking good for Westfield ever being built and free parking is a must.

A report out today - Retailers closed 14 high street shops a day in 2011, and the rate of closures is expected to rise, as half of retail leases in the UK come up for renewal by 2015.

Stores selling books, electrical items, home furnishings, menswear and holidays were the hardest hit, along with off-licences, bars and pubs. And in a reflection, pound stores, charity shops, credit unions, supermarkets, pawnbrokers and retailers selling convenience food all increased their store numbers.

Retailers are now heading for out of town locations which have free parking and lots of shoppers!

What do Bradford Council go and do?...vote to increase the number of charged parking zones in the city centre and pay for the meter's before formal approval, which as it happens has now been approved!

Its not looking good for Westfield ever being built and free parking is a must.

Maybe they should of made a giant forster square style FREE car park at westfield whilst it was on hold? why did nobody think of this?

Maybe they should of made a giant forster square style FREE car park at westfield whilst it was on hold? why did nobody think of this?

Well I did, on 25 October 2010.


The Westfield site should have been turned into free car parking, not a stupid park. That might have stopped business bleeding away.

And by the way, it's "should have", not "should of".

It comes back to Westfield owning the land and them being in complete control.
The situation is scandalous, fingers can be pointed directly at Wesfield for hastening the decline of the city centre, let alone 8 lost years of business rates the Council has missed out on!

It comes back to Westfield owning the land and them being in complete control.
The situation is scandalous, fingers can be pointed directly at Wesfield for hastening the decline of the city centre, let alone 8 lost years of business rates the Council has missed out on!

I can't agree with that pal, Westfield behaved exactly how you'd expect a multi-national conglomerate to behave, they've got shareholders to answer to. The finger should be pointing firmly and only at City Hall.

What Bradford would give today for what was knocked down 8 years ago! :ohno:

And I can't totally agree with that, whilst I agree that Westfield have shareholders to answer to and that Bradford Council should be held to account, there is no doubt that Westfield's non-action has played a major part in the decline of the city centre, thus should be held to account for it.

Just going back to the bars/restaurants debate – I genuinely feel this is potentially an area in which Bradford can better distinguish itself from Leeds .
As it stands, Leeds is (and has established itself as) a nightlife and trendy bar city. Great for their night-time economy, but really not to everyone’s taste. Recent trends have seen a rise in popularity of little indie real ale bars (like the Sparrow) thriving. Surely if we can encourage more of this in the centre (and less of the chains and rubbish ‘swanky’ bars with awful names like ‘ignite’ or ‘bliss’) then we will set ourselves apart from other cities. And with the new City Park space, we could host the best ale festival in the country!

Leeds does also have some great bars that aren't chains or 'swanky'. I agree though, I think this is something where Bradford could do something.

I think there'd be enough business to support some bars that were close enough to the Alhambra / St George's Hall. In the long term, a better range of bars in the city centre would make the city centre a more attractive place to live.

I think restaurants and little niche cafe type things would be great for Bradford city centre too, with no alcohol. I keep saying on my blog, but something like Brixton Village would be great in Bradford.

Getting enough bars to form a circuit would be good, or if not... making places like Market Street and Rawson Street (so many vacancies now) as destinations in their own right might work too.

A report out today - Retailers closed 14 high street shops a day in 2011, and the rate of closures is expected to rise, as half of retail leases in the UK come up for renewal by 2015.

Stores selling books, electrical items, home furnishings, menswear and holidays were the hardest hit, along with off-licences, bars and pubs. And in a reflection, pound stores, charity shops, credit unions, supermarkets, pawnbrokers and retailers selling convenience food all increased their store numbers.

Retailers are now heading for out of town locations which have free parking and lots of shoppers!

What do Bradford Council go and do?...vote to increase the number of charged parking zones in the city centre and pay for the meter's before formal approval, which as it happens has now been approved!

Its not looking good for Westfield ever being built and free parking is a must.

I'm still not sure I understand the furor over car parking in the city centre, probably because I don't care for cars much and I don't drive. But I just do not see how free car parking would save Bradford City Centre.

All city centres charge for car parking. Money from parking is needed to pay for parking enforcement and to pay for business rates for off street parking. It would be interesting if the retailers would be willing to cover the costs of providing for free parking, as they do at out of town centres.

The paid for on street car parking is usually pretty busy, the Kirkgate car park is busy enough. So if its free, there would be more people wanting to park (presumably) so how is the issue of people driving around the city centre with no other reason than to find a parking space dealt with. Traffic would be unbearable so people would probably just seek to drive to out of town centres designed for the car and park there for free instead.

Two hours parking is £1.20, add that to petrol money and its probably just about as cheap as the bus, certainly for more than two people. Emphasis should be on making the centre a bit better, so people feel more willing to part with a quid twenty.

You've lost the point, free parking in the city centre will not save it, but as a temprorary measure it might slow the steep decline in footfall.
Its an idea being banded about in an attempt to bring more people into the city centre to help save dying retailers through lack of business.

Right now the city centre desperately needs something to bring people in, it certainly does not have the pull of enough retailers, something else has to be done even as a temporary measure., certainly the increase of parking meter's won't help the situation and if anything it will make matters worse, where shoppers will flock to such as the Forster Sq retail park and out of town shopping centres, which have free parking and enough retail to keep them coming back.

You say that the emphasis should be on making then centre a bit better, this will only happen with an influx of retailers, who will only come if the footfall is there rather than it being in steep decline which is the case in Bradford.

I know it's a massively contentious issue, but the old Odeon building really needs to be pulled down. Nobody is going to invest in it, it's a terrible eyesore and in the grand scale of Bradford's architecture it's not even that important. Accept defeat and move on.

It's a real shame that the Odeon has been let go to rack and ruin, it could form a fine back drop to the new look Centenary Square. It will soon be at the stage, if is already not where it will have to be dropped.

Perhaps the facade could be rescued and something built behind it such something that could host a world cafe type thing, but that looks highly unlikely and it is almost certainly end up being waste ground, which will be a terrible shame.

More claptrap on the Pond, the reporter didn't even get the actual cost right!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/19/bradford-water-feature-city-park

More claptrap on the Pond, the reporter didn't even get the actual cost right!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/19/bradford-water-feature-city-park

The publicity is a good though, describes the city from a positive angle for a change. & If its really going to bring in more tourists (like those interviewed), and/or improve their experiences when visiting the city, then it will bring businesses extra revenue streams.

It is much easier for normal Bradfordians to knock the park because of the cost and the very little impact its had in terms of jobs and developments so far. As I've said before, if they don't come then this will be waste of money, if they do it will be an overwhelming success to the city.

Hello im new to skyskraper city, and wondering if anyone has more information about Stanley Wardley and his plans for the city centre in the 50/60s.I understand he was at the time considered a visionary town planner, obviously not now!
Believe his total plan for the centre was never completed,what proportion was actually finished,and would anyone think that if the masterplan was completed it would have changed what has since happened in last 10 years.

Hello im new to skyskraper city, and wondering if anyone has more information about Stanley Wardley and his plans for the city centre in the 50/60s.I understand he was at the time considered a visionary town planner, obviously not now!
Believe his total plan for the centre was never completed,what proportion was actually finished,and would anyone think that if the masterplan was completed it would have changed what has since happened in last 10 years.

Local history is one of my hobbies bud and from the stuff i've read i don't think it would have made much difference. Don't forget he was working with a council that at the time were almost as mentally challenged as our current council. They allowed the demolition of some iconic buildings, Swan Arcade, The Mechanics Institute to name but two, there are many more. Can you imagine what these buildings would look like today had they been left alone and refurbed like the Wool Exchange.

I do sometimes get quite upset/angry when reading the books i have on Bradford's history. This great City has been constantly let down by its council on a regular basis since the 1950's. I bet the likes Samuel Cunliffe Lister (Lord Masham) and Sir Titus Salt are turning in their graves!! :bash:

Spin masters at it again

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9551420.__35m_bid_to_create_2_800_jobs_for_Bradford_is_revealed/

My latest blog posts, imagine Bradford in 2052, with two different scenarios.

One is where the city dies (http://bradfordia.blogspot.com/2012/02/future-death-of-bradford.html). The city is failed by national policies, plus a change in personal transport, with non-polluting vehicles means that cities are less relevant places - the city misses out in economic growth and eventually dies totally.

The other one is where the city experiences a renaissance (http://bradfordia.blogspot.com/2012/02/future-renaissance-of-bradford.html), thanks to massive investment in infrastructure and the need for more people to live in cities in general, due to changes in transportation.

My latest blog posts, imagine Bradford in 2052, with two different scenarios.

One is where the city dies (http://bradfordia.blogspot.com/2012/02/future-death-of-bradford.html). The city is failed by national policies, plus a change in personal transport, with non-polluting vehicles means that cities are less relevant places - the city misses out in economic growth and eventually dies totally.

The other one is where the city experiences a renaissance (http://bradfordia.blogspot.com/2012/02/future-renaissance-of-bradford.html), thanks to massive investment in infrastructure and the need for more people to live in cities in general, due to changes in transportation.

Great blog posts. I guess an alternative pessimistic timeline could be made as follows:

* 2014: As a consequence of the Broadway development not starting as a consequence of Westfield's bankruptcy as a consequence of changing retail circumstances and a scandal affecting the company in their native Australia, Marks & Spencer announces the closure of its Bradford City Centre store with claims that their stores at Owlcotes (Pudsey), Keighley, Halifax in addition to new stores in Shipley town centre and at the top end of the M606 by their Northern Distribution Centre will quite nicely serve the Bradford area as opposed to their present dilapidated store. This proves a disaster for Bradford City Centre's remaining retail offering with many other national chains closing with the notable exception of Primark announcing that they are to expand their Kirkgate Centre store and pound shops, betting shops and fast food restaurants announcing an expansion in Bradford city centre.

* 2015: Bradford City fall out of the football league and as a result move out of their Valley Parade home to play with Bradford Bulls at Odsal (which still hasn't been redeveloped). Their old home is left derelict despite proposals including a mosque and a prison to be built on the site.

* 2016: Major companies based in Bradford City Centre including the Provident and Santander announce a move either to the suburbs or Leeds as a result of the decaying state of Bradford City Centre and as a consequence of perceived dangers as a result of operating within Bradford. This results in even more vacant buildings in Bradford City Centre.

* 2018: Towns including Shipley, Bingley, Keighley and Ilkley anounce a seccession from Bradford forming the new Airedale District Council thereby significantly reducing the official population of the Bradford district and removing many of the wealthier areas (and therefore high council tax areas) from the Bradford district.

* 2020: Bradford City and Bradford Bulls announce a move and merger with Halifax Town and Halifax RLFC at the Shay losing any professional sport within the city of Bradford as it is believed that a bid to regain league football and Super League Rugby League would be more realistic if served from Halifax as opposed to Bradford and also as a consequence of Odsal Stadium being long unfit to serve professional sports. Odsal Stadium subsequently made into a landfill site as a consequence of continuing opposition to proposed incinerator schemes. Also Bradford Park Avenue announce a move to either Farsley Celtic or the Keighley Cougars ground although liquidation soon puts a stop to their move and the club which was reformed in 1974 after a previous liquidation had seen their second life come to an end.

* 2022: Riots following a spree of racist incidents break out in Bradford leading to a number of deaths and the destruction of much of the City Centre including long derelict landmarks such as the former Odeon Cinema, Sunwin House and Brown Muff department stores, the Wool Exchange and most tragically the Town Hall which the rump Bradford Council had still occupied although council cuts had lead to the building looking rather tired. Bradford Council subsequently moved into offices in Halifax, Shipley and Leeds in a bid to retain staff safety.

* 2023: Bradford which following the riots and great fire of 2022 now appears more like a mix of Dresden, Beirut and Kabul is sealed off with a massive Berlin style Wall sealing off everything inside the A6177 Bradford Ring Road with the UK government announcing that Bradford is to become a prison.

* 2025: Air Force One containing the Prime Minister and President of the United States of America crashes into Bradford Prison on a flight between London Heathrow and Washington Dulles. Snake Plissken is sent in to rescue the President and Prime Minister. ;)

An alternative positive timeline:

* 2013: The Labour party who run Bradford Council are removed from power after a popular revolt at local elections with Bradford Independent councillors taking control of the authority as a consequence of dissatisfaction with the major political parties incompetence at running Bradford as a city.

* 2014: Business rates are cut in the City of Bradford and incentives are launched to restore much of Bradford's historic architecture including the Odeon Cinema, Sunwin House department store and numerous old mills. In addition Bradford Council encourage integration between different ethnic groups within Bradford in a bid to reduce segregation which has long been seen as a problem within Bradford.

* 2017: As a consequence of such investment in regeneration a buzz develops around Bradford with The Guardian and The Times newspapers announcing Bradford as the place to be.

* 2018: Bradfords population rises and development finally occurs on the Westfield site for new high street led shopping including new department stores, offices and residential as well as a crossrail link between Interchange and Forster Square railway stations. In addition major companies including Morrisons and a reformed Bradford & Bingley Building Society announce the creation of new head offices in Bradford City Centre.

* 2022: Proposals for a 150m tall skyscraper on part of the former Forster Square retail park with designs by Norman Foster. This commences construction albiet shortened to a more realistic 100m in 2023.

* 2025: Bradford is now clearly at a state where it can be seen as a clear rival to Leeds restoring a rivalry which was rather one sided in recent decades.

Here's another timeline:

2025 Bradford becomes part of Leeds and the two cities are renamed Leedsford!!

Don't think it'll ever be quite that extreme!

I see it more likely that the two branch lines will be joined up rather than removed for example.

It's also worth noting that Bradford's population is increasing, not decreasing.

Correct, growing by a third more than the national average.

Correct, growing by a third more than the national average.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/news_behind/8967936.Home_truths_as_demand_grows/

It'll be 640,000 in over a decade they reckon. Now that is pritty major, lets hope the city can sort itself out by that time so people don't use it as a Leeds suburb.

I doubt the city will ever rival Leeds because they have all the transport connects/regional hubs etc. So it wont ever become a 'major city'. However it still doesn't mean it can't be a great place with vibrant prosperity.

Part of supporting Bradford's growth is by recognising its role as part of the City Region economy. The longer it tries to fight against that, the longer it will fail.

The most successful parts of Bradford are also the areas that have the strongest connections to Leeds. What's the problem if people living in North Bradford, for example, are working in Leeds? Instead of trying to make Bradford a major employment centre like Leeds, why not just embrace its role as a dormitory city, allowing investment to be focused on livability and leisure rather than creating jobs. Leeds can do that, and can do it much better.

I popped into Bradford last Sunday to do a spot of shopping. Normally I'd go to the White Rose Centre, but I decided to support my local town.

I parked on Sunbridge Road for free. It was quiet but not dead, enough people about to not make you feel lonely. Popped into topman and river island and bought bags full of clothes, as they had sales on. Even got some new aftershave.

There is a certain warmth you feel walking down the heritage streets, something you don't feel walking down high streets in leeds. A real feeling of 'place'.

If the council uses these grants wisely, encourage shops to take up units in the heritage streets, tidy up and uniform shopfronts, the town centre could really be a nice shopping destination. Forget westfield, lets make a masterpiece of what we have.

Kirkgate certainly needs to be given the same treatment as Darley Street and the heritage streets. Couple that with decluttering the streets and improving shop fronts, I think the centre would automatically be much more appealing to both shoppers and shop owners.

I'm not sure what everyone complains about. The town centre is full of people and activity. It just needs a combination of good policy and good publicity. Break away all the negativity.

Who needs Westfield?

There is a certain warmth you feel walking down the heritage streets, something you don't feel walking down high streets in leeds. A real feeling of 'place'.

You do get that in Leeds thanks to extensive pedestrianisation, a mix of uses, the arcades and pavement cafes, not to mention the VQ.
The heritage streets in Bradford are undermined by the low grade uses of the units and the high vacancy rate.

http://www.bradfordeye.co.uk/Rackhams-mid-80s.php?currDir=.&startFrom=0

Rackhams/Brown Muff around 1985

http://www.bradfordeye.co.uk/Rackhams-mid-80s.php?currDir=.&startFrom=0

Rackhams/Brown Muff around 1985

Interesting pictures particularly for the fact it shows Rackhams had a seperate furniture annexe on the corner of Bank Street and Broadway where Yorkshire Building Society now have a branch. Did that close when the main Rackhams closed in 1995 or did it close several years before the main store? Certainly the loss of Rackhams in the mid 1990s surely was a strong part of the decline of Bradford as a shopping centre (as mentioned in Notes from a Small Island by Bill Bryson).

Interesting pictures particularly for the fact it shows Rackhams had a seperate furniture annexe on the corner of Bank Street and Broadway where Yorkshire Building Society now have a branch. Did that close when the main Rackhams closed in 1995 or did it close several years before the main store? Certainly the loss of Rackhams in the mid 1990s surely was a strong part of the decline of Bradford as a shopping centre (as mentioned in Notes from a Small Island by Bill Bryson).

I think that went in the late 80's...it wasn't actually Bradfords fault Rackhams closed, from what I have been told and know House of Fraser was undergoing financial difficulties in the mid 90's and though the Bradford store was quite profitable, the building was knackered and I think had asbestos too so it was probably cheaper to sell it too developers

The building is only divided with breeze blocks and much more original features remain than the Likes of Lewis's in Leeds so maybe one day it could once again be a department store

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=bradford&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl if you click on the street view you can see in clearly from when the former Dillons was stipped to become Betfred

from the CoBMDC City Centre action plan of 2008:

"The Westfield project does look promising; it’s a step in the right direction, with what seems to be
respectable department stores signed up. However, the majority of people who come into Bradford
by bus get off at Market Street, the old Rackhams department store/Dillons bookstore is the
number one prime spot in Bradford, and its half empty. Move Birthdays, Virgin and the fast food
shop out, you can have those anywhere in town and recreate a proper department store again,
something for the youth, Westfield will have Marks and Spencer and Debenhams, which is fine but
predominantly cater to an older audience. Something like Zara or H&M is needed, these sort of
shops are in the reach of Bradford, unlike House of Fraser, which will not be interested in Bradford
until it is developed and thriving."

Part of supporting Bradford's growth is by recognising its role as part of the City Region economy. The longer it tries to fight against that, the longer it will fail.

The most successful parts of Bradford are also the areas that have the strongest connections to Leeds. What's the problem if people living in North Bradford, for example, are working in Leeds? Instead of trying to make Bradford a major employment centre like Leeds, why not just embrace its role as a dormitory city, allowing investment to be focused on livability and leisure rather than creating jobs. Leeds can do that, and can do it much better.

This is a typical Leodis view if you don't mind me saying. Although your right in what you say about Leeds being much better and tbh the region would be more prominent if the 2.2million people in the city region used Leeds as its focal point. However, that would not be good for the town and cities in the region as most of the benefits would be seen by Leeds only.

Look at Manchester and Glasgow for example. Stockport and Bolton are insignificant areas due to Manchesters regional expansion and the town centers of these glorified suburbs are on its knees. In Glasgows case, ask people in Scotlands biggest town (paisley) whether their local highstreet and wealth is helped by the unification with an expanded Glasgow. Its just become a working class suburb.

I hate to get all defensively pathetic over your valid comments but saying Bradford should just leave it as a bad job and become a Leeds suburb because its miles ahead is not beneficial to anyone living in and around the city centre. Thats like saying Everton should merge with Liverpool because they never win anything. Leeds is one of the countries major cities and its unfortunate for Bradford that is situated next to it, but Bradford still one of the countries biggest cities with a lot of importance and influence.

If Bradford folded then investment would be minimal and the regeneration projects would be filled with low rise/unattractive apartments that people would live in due to the easy commute to Leeds. People that'd work in Leeds would also go out in Leeds, shop in Leeds etc. Creating more jobs and a greater economy in Leeds and a lesser one in Bradford. It wouldn't have too much to gain from becoming and urbanised suburb.

It is an expansionists view to a prominent city which has been rehearsed by Glasgow/Manchester and Birmingham (the big 3 outside London imo). A smaller Randstad/Saxon Triangle method as seen in europe I feel would be better as each city helps the other to grow enhancing the whole region. I felt we were going that way with the "Leeds-Bradford" profile enhancing but this Leeds City region seems to me like a backwards step. Theres very few (if not any) other example where creating regional centers like this does not work but I don't think theres two cities this size next to each other. & I know its only an investment concept designed to create a better regional economy (replicated across the country), but to many it feels centralisation which dont fit the social and geographical boundries of all the towns in the region.

To enhance the whole region, the authorities need to work together to create a West Yorkshire Conurbation area instead of a Leeds Metro Area, something relatively original in the UK. However national politics, lack of co-ordinance and local selfishness from all the towns and cities will result in local councils scrapping for investment in the region.

This is a typical Leodis view if you don't mind me saying. Although your right in what you say about Leeds being much better and tbh the region would be more prominent if the 2.2million people in the city region used Leeds as its focal point. However, that would not be good for the town and cities in the region as most of the benefits would be seen by Leeds only.

Look at Manchester and Glasgow for example. Stockport and Bolton are insignificant areas due to Manchesters regional expansion and the town centers of these glorified suburbs are on its knees. In Glasgows case, ask people in Scotlands biggest town (paisley) whether their local highstreet and wealth is helped by the unification with an expanded Glasgow. Its just become a working class suburb.

I hate to get all defensively pathetic over your valid comments but saying Bradford should just leave it as a bad job and become a Leeds suburb because its miles ahead is not beneficial to anyone living in and around the city centre. Thats like saying Everton should merge with Liverpool because they never win anything. Leeds is one of the countries major cities and its unfortunate for Bradford that is situated next to it, but Bradford still one of the countries biggest cities with a lot of importance and influence.

If Bradford folded then investment would be minimal and the regeneration projects would be filled with low rise/unattractive apartments that people would live in due to the easy commute to Leeds. People that'd work in Leeds would also go out in Leeds, shop in Leeds etc. Creating more jobs and a greater economy in Leeds and a lesser one in Bradford. It wouldn't have too much to gain from becoming and urbanised suburb.

It is an expansionists view to a prominent city which has been rehearsed by Glasgow/Manchester and Birmingham (the big 3 outside London imo). A smaller Randstad/Saxon Triangle method as seen in europe I feel would be better as each city helps the other to grow enhancing the whole region. I felt we were going that way with the "Leeds-Bradford" profile enhancing but this Leeds City region seems to me like a backwards step. Theres very few (if not any) other example where creating regional centers like this does not work but I don't think theres two cities this size next to each other. & I know its only an investment concept designed to create a better regional economy (replicated across the country), but to many it feels centralisation which dont fit the social and geographical boundries of all the towns in the region.

To enhance the whole region, the authorities need to work together to create a West Yorkshire Conurbation area instead of a Leeds Metro Area, something relatively original in the UK. However national politics, lack of co-ordinance and local selfishness from all the towns and cities will result in local councils scrapping for investment in the region.

I did the Common Purpose programme in Leeds a couple of years ago. One of the days was spent in Bradford as a joint session with the Bradford Common Purpose programme. To call it a depressing experience was an understatement as the Leeds people had to spend eight hours listening to the Bradford people bemoaning their lot and slagging off the city council. That was slightly embarrassing since the council was hosting the day in Bradford City Hall but the worst part was the sheer frustration of the Bradford business people at the city's inability to capitalise on its position and their gloomy view of its future prospects.

However, unlike you, the business people didn't see Bradford's proximity to Leeds as a problem. They, like the people of Kirklees, Wakefield and Harrogate, saw that they could capitalise on Leeds' role as the regional capital. And they were deeply frustrated by the fact that Bradford City Council didn't appear to share that view. Instead the local authority has looked with fear and envy at the relative economic success of its neighbour city but has refused to cooperate in any meaningful way that might have benefitted Bradford.

I am slightly puzzled by the fact that you don't like the Leeds City region concept yet advocate some kind of conurbation partnership. I thought that this was what the City Region was all about, albeit including boroughs outside West Yorkshire.

This is a typical Leodis view if you don't mind me saying...

..but Bradford still one of the countries biggest cities with a lot of importance and influence...

To enhance the whole region, the authorities need to work together to create a West Yorkshire Conurbation area instead of a Leeds Metro Area

Interesting you say that when I am not from Leeds.

By the way, there are 2.2m people in West Yorkshire. The City Region covers a wider area; around 3m people.

Regarding GM; well why does it matter? If somewhere is insignificant but successful, so what. Commuterville might not be the most exciting place to live, but if it offers a desirable quality of life then what's to complain about?

Regarding Bradford's position... yes it is a big city, but it has barely any importance or influence nationally. In fact Sheffield, York and Harrogate are Y&Hs biggest business centres outside Leeds. Bradford's biggest private sector employers are not based in the centre, but out near the motorway or in Airedale.

This demonstrates that the parts of the City Region that are best connected to Leeds are also the areas that are growing the most. This includes resilient areas such as Ilkley, Harrogate and York, but areas that now have very good road and rail connections have also turned themselves around. Wakefield, Huddersfield and the northern flank of Bradford (ie the bit best connected to Leeds) are all on the up, while it is the isolated areas that are struggling.

The successful towns of the City Region are those that have found their place in it. Those that try and compete are doomed to failure- how can Bradford ever even dream of competing with Leeds, a European financial centre, when it can't even support a basic shopping scheme. Ploughing money into trying to make Bradford like Leeds will be wasted.

So what is the problem with people living in Bradford but going out/to work/shop in Leeds? That means Bradford doesn't have to try and rival Leeds, but can focus its money on creating a liveable city.

West Yorkshire never worked; it is only there for administrative purposes. The economic centre is not at the centre of WY, but in the NE in Leeds, meaning that a huge area of North Yorkshire is also included. In the modern connected world, boundaries or population mean nothing. It's all about the economy; where people live and where they work. Whether you consider Leeds one of the 'big four' or not, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it has an economy that has massive influence over a huge part of Yorkshire, not to mention nationally.

This needs to be first admitted and recognised by local authorities, then built upon. If they can latch onto that, they're onto a winner. To try and fight against it is a lost cause. What's good for Leeds is good for the region.

I am slightly puzzled by the fact that you don't like the Leeds City region concept yet advocate some kind of conurbation partnership. I thought that this was what the City Region was all about, albeit including boroughs outside West Yorkshire.

I know its pretty much the same thing, but the perceived centralisation of the region does not help a conurbation region as (I feel) it would sap most investment towards Leeds and away the other towns a cities. A co-operated development of all the towns (and especially the two big cities) in the region is a greater benefit to West Yorkshire as a whole than the perception of a centralised region.

Bradford is in a depressing situation with high resentment towards the local authority but the sub-urbanisation of the city would not help anyone who lives there. This isn't me having a dig at Leeds or anything like that I agree with you that the city hasn't worked closely enough with Leeds City Council in the past an it has lost out. A good example of a profitable partnership between the two cities is the joint superfast broadband bid, this is a healthy relationship between the two cities.

However, Bradford becoming a glorified suburb isn't healthy. Trying to develop a business forest/shopping centre/education quarter etc. will create thousands of jobs, plenty of developments and increase wealth and prosperity in the city. Meanwhile an incorporation into a Greater Leeds would be a lot less beneficial. The city doesn't have to rival Leeds to offer a good standard of living and local pride to its citizens.

Sorry Leeds No.1 I had already posted before you replied... so additionally:

I never said you was from Leeds but your clearly gonna be of a bias opinion with over 18,500 posts on the cities development. Also, Bradfords influence economically is probably minimal when you look at the 'business' side of things. However, Bradfords economy is a lot more reliant on industry and isn't this what the governments trying to promote? Do these not provide influence? The size of the city make it of great importance politically never mind the social impact it has on the rest of the country. & I'm sure Bradfords links to Leeds are as good as, if not better, than that of 'successful' Wakefield and Huddersfield. How would you measure that success by the way?

Also.. Leeds is not one near one of the 'big 3' imo opinion, if there was 4 then Liverpool is of much more importance historically, culturally and (I haven't done my research so only I'm guessing) but economically too. Even 5th could be debated by a number of cities. Its still a great city, one of the best in the country, so don't get too offended like I said this isn't an attack on Leeds or on you. Although I did find your comments bias and derogatory & like I've repeatedly stated, a sub-urbanised Bradford won't do the city or west yorkshire much good.

Leeds is second only to Manchester in the North economically. Liverpool doesn't really compare, a much weaker economy and smaller too. Liverpool is much more culturally and historically important though.

Paul, you've twice (more or less) said this " Bradford becoming a glorified suburb (of Leeds) isn't healthy." I wanted to know, why?

I'm middle aged now but have run a business, or worked for myself, in Bradford (mostly) since I was 23, in that time the decline of Bradford has been relentless. In that same time, from not that far in front, Leeds has prospered, both cities have experienced the same regional and national economic ups and downs.

You can wait forever Paul, for something to happen, I cannot recall all the countless initiatives since the first one that I tried (unsuccesfully) to gain council help from, that was the "Bradford's Bouncing Back" campaign in 1986 (I think). None have worked, or even slowed the acceleration of decline, Bradford in 1986 was immeasurably better than it is now and it was trying to "Bounce back" then. :ohno:

I can think of lots of advantages of Bradford aligning itself and working with Leeds, and I (as a Bradfordian) would be happy to see it accepting it's subservient role in the relationship.

Liverpool is of much more importance historically, culturally and (I haven't done my research so only I'm guessing) but economically too.

Please, do a bit of research then come back. You'll find that Liverpool is nowhere near Leeds in economic terms, and while it is a great city culturally, it is shrinking reflecting its struggling economy.

On the other hand, Leeds has an £13bn (GDP) economy that can be tapped into if Bradford played its cards right. While it might be more difficult for outlying towns to prosper in the more deprived City Regions like Liverpool, or Glasgow with your reference to Paisley, the strong City Regions like Leeds and Manchester offer prosperity and growth.

Putting aside the already successful towns like Harrogate or Altrincham, previously struggling areas have had their fortunes turned around. Huddersfield and Wakefield have become favourites for commuters, with Wakefield even managing now to open a significant art gallery by latching onto the vibrant arts scene in the City Region. To use this example, together, we can offer Leeds City Art Gallery, Henry Moore Institute, Salts Mill, Yorkshire Sculpture Park and now The Hepworth. That makes us a strong City Region; if we were alone trying to compete, the situation would appear much poorer.

Over in Greater Manchester, connections to Manchester have enabled areas close to Manchester to boom like Salford, but also Stockport has become a popular commuting area. Bury has been able to justify a shopping scheme that Bradford can only hope for. And it's all because they've said 'we're part of a 2.5m conurbation here', while Bradford is sending out the message 'no, we're not part of the 3m £48bn (GVA) City Region, we're 600,000 people in a deprived city'.

It's a major mistake by the successive leaders of Bradford.

I'm often surprised at how well other towns (much smaller then Bradford) are doing, and surely this gives some hope that Bradford can do better. Bury has already been mentioned with their new part indoor/part outdoor shopping centre, also Warrington have recently had a large new indoor shopping mall built and opened, and both are pleasent and thriving places apart from their respective new shopping centres, went to Wigan and that is thriving with a healthy and thriving shopping area and large mall: and to cap it all I visited Middlesborough last week for the first time ever; I was expecting some deprived dump of a town (media lead anti NE reterick), but found a nice clean reasonably thriving city with a booming and pleasent university campus adjacent to the centre, no sign of derelict shops/buildings in the centre, good thriving high streets of shops and a large perhaps mediocre but adequate 'The Mall' branded indoor shopping centre, a clear business quarter with office buildings, and a very impressive and pleasent urban park (with water feature) adjacent to the classical civic centre buildings - basicly it has everything Bradford is aspiring towards and is doing it well.

I know its pretty much the same thing, but the perceived centralisation of the region does not help a conurbation region as (I feel) it would sap most investment towards Leeds and away the other towns a cities. A co-operated development of all the towns (and especially the two big cities) in the region is a greater benefit to West Yorkshire as a whole than the perception of a centralised region.



Do you think its all in a name? I don't feel like the Leeds City Region is attemping to focus all investment into the centre of Leeds, but hopefully trying to get the local economies of Bradford, Kirklees, York etc to 'piggy back' on to the success of Leeds. I don't think the name 'Leeds City Region' is helpful though.

" Bradford becoming a glorified suburb (of Leeds) isn't healthy." I wanted to know, why?

Amongst issues of identity and local pride, I'd say mainly because the transport connections aren't there. There might not be a huge amount of difference in Leeds and Bradford links from somewhere like Saltaire, but what about somewhere like Buttershaw, or Holme Wood? How would this be overcome, without potentially making the deprived areas more deprived?


You can wait forever Paul, for something to happen, I cannot recall all the countless initiatives since the first one that I tried (unsuccesfully) to gain council help from, that was the "Bradford's Bouncing Back" campaign in 1986 (I think). None have worked, or even slowed the acceleration of decline, Bradford in 1986 was immeasurably better than it is now and it was trying to "Bounce back" then. :ohno:


Interesting this, I'm not old enough to remember central Bradford in the 1980s. What I've heard from Bradford's Bouncing Back (after reading a book by the man who in charge of the campaign, so perhaps one sided) is that the initative helped promote Bradford more positively, as it had a very poor reputation there. I hear a lot of people saying the nightlife in Bradford isn't what it was and the shopping isn't either and the Odeon used to be there etc? But what about Little Germany, or the area around City Hall compared to 1986? My impression is that Bradford was on an ascent from the late 1980s and into the 1990s, which was brought to a halt by the damage of the riots and the regeneration failures in the city centre.



Over in Greater Manchester, connections to Manchester have enabled areas close to Manchester to boom like Salford, but also Stockport has become a popular commuting area. Bury has been able to justify a shopping scheme that Bradford can only hope for. And it's all because they've said 'we're part of a 2.5m conurbation here', while Bradford is sending out the message 'no, we're not part of the 3m £48bn (GVA) City Region, we're 600,000 people in a deprived city'.


I think the shop vacancy rate in Stockport is even higher than Bradford, some achievement! I'm not sure about the centre of Stockport, but haven't places like the Heatons and Cheadle always been Manchester commuterville? The Rock at Bury isn't any bigger than Westfield is it? I mean, obviously the Rock at Bury exists and isn't just a hole in the ground - but I don't think its the lack of collaboration with Leeds that has failed to deliver the shopping centre in Bradford.

I'm often surprised at how well other towns (much smaller then Bradford) are doing, and surely this gives some hope that Bradford can do better.

It certainly does, especially the comparison with Wigan, Bury and Warrington. I think Middlesbrough has a great town centre for retail, but this is the biggest centre within about 30 miles. I have to say that Bradford beats all of the above for culture and things to do (Well, certainly Wigan which I've lived in and Middlesbrough which I've lived near).

Please, do a bit of research then come back. You'll find that Liverpool is nowhere near Leeds in economic terms, and while it is a great city culturally, it is shrinking reflecting its struggling economy.


Where's PaulD, the guy who will tell you the big bang happened in Liverpool.

Leeds is second only to Manchester in the North economically. Liverpool doesn't really compare, a much weaker economy and smaller too. Liverpool is much more culturally and historically important though.

Leeds is economically stronger than Liverpool right now, but Leeds is certainly not bigger. Using the ridiculous Leeds boundaries in a similar way would see Liverpool be much bigger.

The true size of Liverpool, excluding Bhead and Wallasey which some would argue are part of Lpool, is over 800,000

Liverpool is around twice the size of Leeds and its population is no longer shrinking. Yes, Leeds is more prosperous on the whole and has a higher economic output per head however.

Liverpool is around twice the size of Leeds and its population is no longer shrinking.

Where on earth did you read that? :nuts:

Amongst issues of identity and local pride, I'd say mainly because the transport connections aren't there. There might not be a huge amount of difference in Leeds and Bradford links from somewhere like Saltaire, but what about somewhere like Buttershaw, or Holme Wood? How would this be overcome, without potentially making the deprived areas more deprived?

Tbh, I can't imagine what local pride Bradfordians under 25 have? I take your point about Buttershaw & Holme Wood but I can name worse estates in Leeds right now..........



Interesting this, I'm not old enough to remember central Bradford in the 1980s. What I've heard from Bradford's Bouncing Back (after reading a book by the man who in charge of the campaign, so perhaps one sided) is that the initative helped promote Bradford more positively, as it had a very poor reputation there. I hear a lot of people saying the nightlife in Bradford isn't what it was and the shopping isn't either and the Odeon used to be there etc? But what about Little Germany, or the area around City Hall compared to 1986? My impression is that Bradford was on an ascent from the late 1980s and into the 1990s, which was brought to a halt by the damage of the riots and the regeneration failures in the city centre.


But did it attract any significant private investment or employment? I don't think Bradford was on an ascent in the late 80's and early 90's, they were great aspirational times and the first time that I became aware of people saying the lived or worked in Leeds, when in fact, they were in Bradford. No, it's been a linear decline since I started work, that was in 1978. The riots accelerated the decline and Bradford's negative national image was enhanced greatly, I don't know whether that can ever be reversed.

But, there is a chance, a slim one, but it's there. Fabulous victorian architecture, centrally located and a beautiful north side. I was in Barcelona last week, I used to visit regularly in the late 80's. It was a shithole, no, really it was. Many of the buildings that are world famous today and tourists stand gawping at, were covered in grime and unloved back then. The '92 Olmpics kickstarted it all but the never ending regeneration and reinvention of Barcleona is simply incredible to watch. Bradford needs a kickstart,a tangible event, not any more initiatives or jargon...... "Bouncing Back" "One Lanscape, many views" :nuts: or the last, launched Sept 2011 "The Positive Bradford", who remembers that?

What remains of Brown Muff...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7058/6956295015_018e25c8c9_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/6956295015/)
2012-03-05 11.44.08 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/6956295015/) by lazygamer (http://www.flickr.com/people/lazygamer/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7188/6956297701_759eb3c84f_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/6956297701/)
2012-03-05 11.44.16 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/6956297701/) by lazygamer (http://www.flickr.com/people/lazygamer/), on Flickr

It certainly isn't twice the size of Leeds! :nuts: My hazardous guess that it would be a bigger importance than Leeds must be a common perception, Liverpool always seems to come 3rd on the second city polls.

Bradford already hosts a large amounts of commuters to Leeds, I'm sure the figures aren't too much different (if not greater) than that of Huddersfield, and what has that done to develop the city centre? Not much by the looks of things.

Bradford doesn't/can't rival Leeds and it the wrong attitude for the city to have. However, if people are taking money out of the district and spending it in Leeds it impacts everything. Suddenly the developments happen in Leeds because thats where the money is (already been seen), people from Leeds are more likely to get the jobs that are associated with this, this persons wage then gets paid and recycles that into his local economy in somewhere like Morley. Thats whats wrong with too many people going out/shopping/eating/working in Leeds. Business theory relies heavily on knock of effects and I thought it was implied but obviously not.

There are benefits from being located next to Leeds that haven't yet been realised. However, like my argument all along has stated, Bradford being a sub-urbanised district of Leeds will not be beneficial to the development of the city centre. I lived in Manchester for 4 years and the amount of people you come across from stockport is significant to say the least, yet their town centre is non-existant. The people of stockport go out/eat/shop/work in manchester. Yes it has helped some residential districts like marple develop, but stockports town centre has suffered drastically from becoming commuterville.

Bradford needs a kickstart,a tangible event, not any more initiatives or jargon...... "Bouncing Back" "One Landscape, many views" :nuts: or the last, launched Sept 2011 "The Positive Bradford", who remembers that?

2 years ago...
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4036/4372434963_e7408e928b_z.jpg?zz=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/4372434963/)
One Landscape, Many Views :/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/4372434963/) by lazygamer (http://www.flickr.com/people/lazygamer/), on Flickr

2 years ago...
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4036/4372434963_e7408e928b_z.jpg?zz=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/4372434963/)
One Landscape, Many Views :/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazygamer/4372434963/) by lazygamer (http://www.flickr.com/people/lazygamer/), on Flickr

Funny pic. :lol: Now, the re-clad side of the old police station is actually very good, nearly seamless, I think it's my favourite part of the park..........

There are benefits from being located next to Leeds that haven't yet been realised. However, like my argument all along has stated, Bradford being a sub-urbanised district of Leeds will not be beneficial to the development of the city centre.

I agree (generally) with a lot of what you post Paul but I must be a bit older than you, what development of the city centre? What development do you expect to happen?

I'll take the benefits and a decaying/declining centre rather than no benefits and the same decaying/declining centre.

BTW when I go to Barcleona I stay with pal who lives in Badalona,once a proud independent town but now just about swallowed up by Barca. Big place, 220k population, small centre with basic shops but a lot of (busy) cafe/bars. To me, the town seems like it's purpose is to provide labour, parking and warehouse space for Barca, Badalona lives off Barcelona and I don't see anything wrong with that.

I agree (generally) with a lot of what you post Paul but I must be a bit older than you, what development of the city centre? What development do you expect to happen?

I'll take the benefits and a decaying/declining centre rather than no benefits and the same decaying/declining centre.

BTW when I go to Barcleona I stay with pal who lives in Badalona,once a proud independent town but now just about swallowed up by Barca. Big place, 220k population, small centre with basic shops but a lot of (busy) cafe/bars. To me, the town seems like it's purpose is to provide labour, parking and warehouse space for Barca, Badalona lives off Barcelona and I don't see anything wrong with that.

From what I read Mark your hope for Bradford has been crushed through failed cycles of attempted regeneration projects followed by gradual demise of the city centre. If I was older I would probably feel much the same to be honest. I think the optimism, or naivety, of expecting big things from Bradford has certainly disappeared from me. Therefore, all I expect (or even hope) to happen is that Bradford becomes a place that is no longer embarrassing for its citizens. Somewhere people can shop, visit, live, work. In that order, at the moment, there are no shops, little entertainment, its intimidating and theres not a lot of work.

The artist drawings of a canal side high-rise development is way too optimistic for me and will probably never be a reality in my mind. Anything envious of other cities is highly doubtful, but the city is currently in a state where I find myself having to travel elsewhere for basic amenities, its those I want and expect to be sorted.

I've never been to Badalona but it sounds like a good place to live, however I'm skeptical because I can't think of a sub-urbanised town or city in the UK that has benefited as much as Badalona.

I am a realist, the centre is dead, maye it can recover in some way so that it can attract "visits", however, retail in that centre is finished..............forever.

When we say "Bradford" I don't always think of the centre, I may express mostly negative views about that but I am postively upbeat about North Bradford and other outlying areas and am far from embarrassed about living here, bang per buck it's hard to beat. :)

Badalona was an industrial centre, it fell on hard times from the 70's onwards. After 92 when Barcelona took off, it aligned itself with it's neighbour. It already had a metro train line but lobbied for, and got, a faster direct tram, from one centre to the other. It did not try to compete or distance itself but make it easier to facillitate the movement of money/people from Barcelona to Badalona..............

Tbh, I can't imagine what local pride Bradfordians under 25 have? I take your point about Buttershaw & Holme Wood but I can name worse estates in Leeds right now..........




But did it attract any significant private investment or employment? I don't think Bradford was on an ascent in the late 80's and early 90's, they were great aspirational times and the first time that I became aware of people saying the lived or worked in Leeds, when in fact, they were in Bradford. No, it's been a linear decline since I started work, that was in 1978. The riots accelerated the decline and Bradford's negative national image was enhanced greatly, I don't know whether that can ever be reversed.

But, there is a chance, a slim one, but it's there. Fabulous victorian architecture, centrally located and a beautiful north side. I was in Barcelona last week, I used to visit regularly in the late 80's. It was a shithole, no, really it was. Many of the buildings that are world famous today and tourists stand gawping at, were covered in grime and unloved back then. The '92 Olmpics kickstarted it all but the never ending regeneration and reinvention of Barcleona is simply incredible to watch. Bradford needs a kickstart,a tangible event, not any more initiatives or jargon...... "Bouncing Back" "One Lanscape, many views" :nuts: or the last, launched Sept 2011 "The Positive Bradford", who remembers that?

Well I am 26 and I am a proud Bradfordian I live in Bradford too, I am proud of its heritage and what it can acheive if it works at it. It needs to stop trying to compare to Leeds for itself and be different!

Most people I know say decline stared in the late 80's/90's and got much worse around 2000, I agree with them, in thelast 20 years to city has lost so much and of course the riots didnt help neither

Most people I know say decline stared in the late 80's/90's and got much worse around 2000, I agree with them, in the last 20 years to city has lost so much and of course the riots didnt help neither

Well, they are wrong, if they were right then a regeneration campaign would not have been needed in 1986, would it?

I agree with your 2000 comments, since then the decline has been very rapid indeed.

[QUOTE=MarkJF;89184364]Well, they are wrong, if they were right then a regeneration campaign would not have been needed in 1986, would it?

I agree with your 2000 comments, since then the decline has been very rapid indeed.[/QUOTE

Dont care much for your egotistcal they are wrong and I am right, the people I refer to say bradfords got worse over last 40 years but real decline started 1990s like I said

I would rather live in 1986 bradford than 2011 bradford!

Dont care much for your egotistcal they are wrong and I am right, the people I refer to say bradfords got worse over last 40 years but real decline started 1990s like I said

I would rather live in 1986 bradford than 2011 bradford!

You didn't say that before, you said "Most people I know say decline started in the late 80's/90's" and that is wrong, it was declining badly from much earlier IMO and had, like I said, a regeneration campaign in 1986, the rot had set in well before the mid 80's, many would argue that its decline started much earlier, with de-industrialisation. The centre of '78 when I started work was way better than the dump of the late '80's/early '90's, my mother would probably tell me what dump it was in '78 compared to the early '60's when I was born, and so it goes............

Interesting article, it mentions the 1970's as the start of the retail decline, depressing to think that this "feel good" article was from June 2001, and here we are today...................

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/archive/2001/06/02/Bradford+District+Archive/8041582.Why_Bradford_shops_are_on_the_verge_of_bouncing_back___/

Dont care much for your egotistcal they are wrong and I am right, the people I refer to say bradfords got worse over last 40 years but real decline started 1990s like I said

Tha knows nowt lad.

The tipping point came one day in 1982, when three of the city's most significant manufacturing employers - International Harvester, GEC (previously English Electric), and Rank Wharfedale (Thorn, previously Baird Television, having closed not long before) - announced they were closing, by a cruel coincidence on the same day, thanks to the Thatcher recession.

Until that day, we had a Plan B for post-textile Bradford. After that day, nothing. It was that day that they were ludicrously 'Bouncing Back' from in 1986.

Read this: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1982/jul/29/bradford-industrial-assistance

If you don't remember life in Bradford before that day, you just don't have the data to do your bit of Freudian projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) about right and wrong. Sorry to disillusion you.

It is saddening to see old pictures of more prosperous times. However what's happened has happened and unfortunately we can't bring that back, only learn.

We can and have taken steps to improve what we have, and I think its fair to say that in the last three years things have gotten better, we have a new city park, and the new provident / jurys building, trinity green college campus and culture fusion developement, the student village and also premier inn and travelodge.

Hopefully three years from now we will have westfield, some progress with the odeon and business forest, the bradford college redevelopement, further expansion to the university and maybe even citygate and the other mothballed developements if bradford goes about it in the right way.

Its not all doom and gloom, steady progress is better than nothing. Perception and PR is everything.

I was in nottingham a few days ago, and in terms of topography and size it didn't seem too different to Bradford. I had a fun few hours exploring the streets, plenty to see and do. Something Bradford could potentially offer with time.

And I think thats what it comes down to. There just needs to be more to see and do, more 'fun' in Bradford, not just the usual mcmalls and mcshops, although we need those too. We have the fastest growing young population. Get with the times and get on it Bradford !:P

I would say the recent severe decline starting almost at the same time as the Broadway works started, maybe when the now demolished part of Broadway started to be emptied a few years before.

Up to the first part of the 00s there had been various improvements in Bradford, the contruction of Centenary Square, refurbishment of what was the Media Museum, refurb of the Kirkgate Centre, rebuilding of Bradford Interchange, Rawson Square, Construction of Foster Square retail park etc.

Since then it's just been a catalogue of buildings being demolished, shops closing, entire streets becoming disused, major retailers like Probyns, Goldsmiths etc leaving the city which has spread from the Westfield site across the whole city.

It's funny how dismissive some people were of the capital of culture bid, yet Bradford was a million times better then than it is now

The old Mechanics' Institution.




http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/39/04/390408_72ec997b.jpg




http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/39/04/390400_8c71d447.jpg

Noticed this building with the stumped chimney has been demolished (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=thornton+road+bradford&hl=en&ll=53.793338,-1.759379&spn=0.007352,0.01929&hnear=Thornton+Rd,+Bradford,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&sqi=2&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.793449,-1.759407&panoid=UXH0sySp6MQkizvyrmyuzA&cbp=12,30.23,,0,-22.5) this week as part of the clearance works following the fire that destroyed the mill in the top right of the frame.

Anyone know why this bit of heritage was included in the clearance works?

Noticed this building with the stumped chimney has been demolished (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=thornton+road+bradford&hl=en&ll=53.793338,-1.759379&spn=0.007352,0.01929&hnear=Thornton+Rd,+Bradford,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&sqi=2&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.793449,-1.759407&panoid=UXH0sySp6MQkizvyrmyuzA&cbp=12,30.23,,0,-22.5) this week as part of the clearance works following the fire that destroyed the mill in the top right of the frame.

Anyone know why this bit of heritage was included in the clearance works?

It collpased over a road, its not demolition works, they are clearing the debris. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9575939.Probe_launched_after_Bradford_fire_hit_mill_wall_collapses/

No mate they are demolishing it, it just collapsed whilst they were doing so, they've been tearing it down for a week or two now. Crompton Demolitions I think, and I found an old council documen on planning4bradford that says that site on the junction with tetley street, sunbridge road etc will be multiple floored student flats, I'll do my best to get a link. It is dated from like 2004 onwards haha

http://www.planning4bradford.com/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=0301379FUL&documentOrdering.orderBy=description&documentOrdering.orderDirection=descending

Was in Bradford earlier today. Certainly was in a state of yet more decline with more and more empty shops around streets in Bradford City Centre including Darley Street, Bank Street, Market Street and in particular the remaining part of Broadway with Bon Marche and DBZ both having closing down sales with that street looking unbelievably empty (with perhaps a branch or branches of GAME closing down too in the near future) although I can comment that the new City Park certainly looks good, although surely it is just an extension of the existing Centenary Square as opposed to an actual park (and it would surely need good security to prevent it declining and wouldn't it have been better spending that £24.4 million pounds assigned to develop this park http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/19/bradford-water-feature-city-park on perhaps encouring businesses to setup / invest in Bradford City Centre instead) and the new Nandos is a good improvement. Also Media Museum looking good as ever although a few exhibits weren't working and surely it could do with more stuff about classic movies over the years which it seemed to have lacked. At least there is of course a lot of attractive buildings although something major does need doing to reverse the poor fortunes of Bradford City Centre. I can also add that surely a confusing city centre road layout (it took ages to find the Kirkgate Centre car park) would surely put off potential visitors to Bradford City Centre.

Also is there no word on that Arts Centre which I thought is supposed to be opening at the former Brown Muff / Rackhams / Virgin Megastore / Zavvi building? Would have been nice if House of Fraser could be persuaded to perhaps return to Bradford by opening a small format store on that site although I cannot see them being interested considering the current very poor state of Bradford City Centre and the complete absense of anything ever happening on the Westfield site which could encourage footfall. Also noticed scaffolding could be starting to go up on the Odeon. Is it a case of hiding it from public view for when the City Park opens, a case of covering it up to prevent bits falling onto pedestrians or worse preparations for demolition? :bash:

Finally out of interest where was the Bradford City Centre branch of Woolworths. Was it in the current Topman / Topshop / Scotts / Burton / Dorothy Perkins building on Darley Street shown to the right of the picture below considering slightly similar appearance to the former Woolworths building in Leeds (now House of Fraser) and the appearance of the building which suggests it could have once been one much larger store?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Darley_Street%2C_Bradford.jpg/800px-Darley_Street%2C_Bradford.jpg

Edit: Indeed that building was the Bradford Woolies and closed down in 1984. http://www.100thbirthday.co.uk/images/StoreGallery/pages/0037Bradford65.htm

http://www.100thbirthday.co.uk/images/StoreGallery/images/0037Bradford65.jpg

Would have thought back in 1984 that Woolies could have moved elsewhere into a smaller unit even if their old store was no longer needed.

Also Media Museum looking good as ever although a few exhibits weren't working and surely it could do with more stuff about classic movies over the years which it seemed to have lacked.

The Media Museum's remit is to show films at its cinemas rather than in an exhibit (it would be nice if there was free or cheap matinee screenings [of classics or archive material] at the Pictureville cinema during the day - I've been so many times to the museum I can pretty much see all the new stuff each time in 30 minutes)

I'm currently watching The Godfather Part II and am considering making the Media Museum an offer they can't refuse :banana:

Was in Bradford earlier today. Certainly was in a state of yet more decline with more and more empty shops around streets in Bradford City Centre including Darley Street, Bank Street, Market Street and in particular the remaining part of Broadway with Bon Marche and DBZ both having closing down sales with that street looking unbelievably empty (with perhaps a branch or branches of GAME closing down too in the near future) although I can comment that the new City Park certainly looks good, although surely it is just an extension of the existing Centenary Square as opposed to an actual park (and it would surely need good security to prevent it declining and wouldn't it have been better spending that £24.4 million pounds assigned to develop this park http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/19/bradford-water-feature-city-park on perhaps encouring businesses to setup / invest in Bradford City Centre instead) and the new Nandos is a good improvement. Also Media Museum looking good as ever although a few exhibits weren't working and surely it could do with more stuff about classic movies over the years which it seemed to have lacked. At least there is of course a lot of attractive buildings although something major does need doing to reverse the poor fortunes of Bradford City Centre. I can also add that surely a confusing city centre road layout (it took ages to find the Kirkgate Centre car park) would surely put off potential visitors to Bradford City Centre.

Also is there no word on that Arts Centre which I thought is supposed to be opening at the former Brown Muff / Rackhams / Virgin Megastore / Zavvi building? Would have been nice if House of Fraser could be persuaded to perhaps return to Bradford by opening a small format store on that site although I cannot see them being interested considering the current very poor state of Bradford City Centre and the complete absense of anything ever happening on the Westfield site which could encourage footfall. Also noticed scaffolding could be starting to go up on the Odeon. Is it a case of hiding it from public view for when the City Park opens, a case of covering it up to prevent bits falling onto pedestrians or worse preparations for demolition? :bash:

Finally out of interest where was the Bradford City Centre branch of Woolworths. Was it in the current Topman / Topshop / Scotts / Burton / Dorothy Perkins building on Darley Street shown to the right of the picture below considering slightly similar appearance to the former Woolworths building in Leeds (now House of Fraser) and the appearance of the building which suggests it could have once been one much larger store?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Darley_Street%2C_Bradford.jpg/800px-Darley_Street%2C_Bradford.jpg

Edit: Indeed that building was the Bradford Woolies and closed down in 1984. http://www.100thbirthday.co.uk/images/StoreGallery/pages/0037Bradford65.htm

http://www.100thbirthday.co.uk/images/StoreGallery/images/0037Bradford65.jpg

Would have thought back in 1984 that Woolies could have moved elsewhere into a smaller unit even if their old store was no longer needed.

When Woolies returned to the city on the outskirts as 'Big W', the unit was twice the size of that in the city centre.

Bon Marche closed because the parent company went bust, and DBZ closed because they could not make the location pay after having taken on the unit from Adams who went bust as a group, its no great surprise that DBZ closed down, anyone choosing to reopen a business in broadway as it now is must have little busines sense, and its a wonder that Game and Superdrug are hanging on in there, Waterstones is another that will be having a rethink.

You should come back and visit Centenary Sq/City Park of an evening, because the 'banana' is alarmingly quiet and the bars and restaurants must be struggling. Already Chino Thai has vacated half its floorspace in a fight for survival. Even the introduction of Nando's has done little to improve general footfall, in fact it seems all they have managed to do is dilute the business they already had which is now spread between two sites within a 5 min walk of each other, and its doubtful that the operation and set-up costs for an additional outlet are currently being met.
As a result of the Pond attraction, the summer months will likely improve footfall in Centenary Sq , but until Westfield make an appearance then overall the sitaution can only get worse, and lets not forget that Westfield being up and running is a very long way off considering that a single building block has yet to be laid!

This has been a fascinating debate, the City centre has definatley been in decline. However, I'm far from convinced that the shops and business moving is a true barometer and reflection of the local situation rather it reflects the broader national situation and in a lot of respects Bradford is no different than a number of towns and city centres up and down the country with nationwide business drawing in their horns in and withdrawing from a lot of provincial city centres.

Bradford City centre in my opinion is at a crucial turning point, with completion of the City park, just up the road University is well on with it's regeneration and building programme and doing good things.

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/estates/

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/news_opinion/featurescolumnists/news_opinion_columnist_keith/9440993.___Ecoversity____is_leading_the_way/

The College with it's new £50m campus.

What the City needs now is to develop the Odeon site and Westfield development to start. Then in a few years it could be very different place.

Those are all publicly funded though, and I'm not sure they'll attract that much investment. Universities are going to have to perform well in the coming years to counteract higher fees too.

The difference with Bradford is that it's a major city. Businesses are withdrawing from provincial towns yes, but generally not major cities. Bradford is a major city but acting more of a local centre, not helped by the dominance of Leeds and competition by White Rose, Huddersfield, Halifax, Harrogate and various retail parks. It should be acting as a major centre, but as it is clearly failing I'm not sure it's the best strategy to pursue.

What the City needs now is to develop the Odeon site and Westfield development to start. Then in a few years it could be very different place.

Won't happen though Jeff. It's the contant "hoping" and "waiting" that is contributing to the accelerating decline, what business would invest in Bradford with it's interminable state of uncertainty?

You can see examples like the state of M&S which is an embarrassment to the company and the carpet in WH Smiths which was past it's lifespan in 2005 and is now held together with duct tape and chewing gum! Existing business can't commit funds to re-furbs, what'd be the point?

Latest news on the Odeon, I could cry. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9585284.Former_Odeon__a_danger_to_public__says_expert_survey/

Latest news on the Odeon, I could cry. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9585284.Former_Odeon__a_danger_to_public__says_expert_survey/[/QUOTE]

They have let the odeon get into that state, which I think is criminal. Surely it would cost hardly anything to visit once every few weeks and do snall maintenance whislt its future is decided, e.g. repair a leaky pipe. They seem hellbent on demolishing it, and are trying to find more and more reasons to do so.

The first urbex people found the pipes in that state. The same urbex people they are blaming for the damage in that article.

Val Verde - (with perhaps a branch or branches of GAME closing down too in the near future)

Sooner than you think, staff have been told to expect administration, the GAME group has been put up for sale and have admitted that any rescue is unlikely, making administration all but inevitable before March 21st, where they need to pay a £15 million rent bill, let alone a pile of money owed to the HMRC, and approx £30 million owed out on its loyalty card.

Game suppliers to GAME have also put them on stop in fear of losing unpaid for stock.

So its looking like Game are about to go pop any day, and with it likely another two empty retail units in Bradford City Centre, and 608 others across the UK.

Sooner than you think, staff have been told to expect administration,.


In the FT today, it says retail experts expect Game to have no more than three weeks left, unless the banks keep it going - unlikely.

Latest news on the Odeon, I could cry. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9585284.Former_Odeon__a_danger_to_public__says_expert_survey/

They have let the odeon get into that state, which I think is criminal. Surely it would cost hardly anything to visit once every few weeks and do snall maintenance whislt its future is decided, e.g. repair a leaky pipe. They seem hellbent on demolishing it, and are trying to find more and more reasons to do so.[/QUOTE]

Certainly a disgrace and Bradford Council are also adding asbestos in their propaganda efforts. I just cannot understand why Bradford Council want to replace such a potentially highly attractive landmark with an anonymous anytown office building. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9585284.Former_Odeon__a_danger_to_public__says_expert_survey/

In the FT today, it says retail experts expect Game to have no more than three weeks left, unless the banks keep it going - unlikely.

Yeah I pretty much knew that Game looks set to go into administration which seems all but inevitable with major publishers refusing to stock titles with GAME. Certainly is looking likely to be a very messy administration with lots of job losses (and remember Gamestation who are owned by GAME will of course also be part of such an administration meaning the loss of at least two and more probably three shops from Bradford City Centre). :ohno:

Anyway BBC Look North report with claims that the new City Park can single handedly reap huge financial awards for Bradford as a city. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-17296838

Whilst the Park has certainly been done to a high standard I am personally very critical of what if anything this park could do to lead to a resurgance of Bradford as a city considering disgraces such as the derelict Odeon and Westfield sites in addition to ever growing numbers of empty shops, offices, mills and other buildings around the city centre which is certainly in a long state of decline. Also surely the £24 million spent on the park could have instead been spent on measures design to revitalise Bradford City Centre as a whole as opposed to one small part in particular encouraging businesses to setup in addition to perhaps getting Westfield off the ground as well as encouraging offices to base themselves in the centre as a way of building Bradford as a business centre as opposed to a dying centre.

Whilst the Park has certainly been done to a high standard I am personally very critical of what if anything this park could do to lead to a resurgance of Bradford as a city considering disgraces such as the derelict Odeon and Westfield sites in addition to ever growing numbers of empty shops, offices, mills and other buildings around the city centre which is certainly in a long state of decline. Also surely the £24 million spent on the park could have instead been spent on measures design to revitalise Bradford City Centre as a whole as opposed to one small part in particular encouraging businesses to setup in addition to perhaps getting Westfield off the ground as well as encouraging offices to base themselves in the centre as a way of building Bradford as a business centre as opposed to a dying centre.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. I agree they should have used the money to repave Kirkgate, Ivegate, John St, and connect up the North Parade area to Darley Street, rerouting traffic away from John Street. With the paving to the same standard as Darley Street and the Heritage Streets, coupled with improving and making the shopfronts more uniform and upmarket, the shopping streets would certainly have been more attractive to shoppers and businesses. However, this would not have got the same attention and buzz as 'EUROPES LARGEST CITY CENTRE WATER FEATURE'

Whilst the Park has certainly been done to a high standard I am personally very critical of what if anything this park could do to lead to a resurgance of Bradford as a city considering disgraces such as the derelict Odeon and Westfield sites in addition to ever growing numbers of empty shops, offices, mills and other buildings around the city centre which is certainly in a long state of decline. Also surely the £24 million spent on the park could have instead been spent on measures design to revitalise Bradford City Centre as a whole as opposed to one small part in particular encouraging businesses to setup in addition to perhaps getting Westfield off the ground as well as encouraging offices to base themselves in the centre as a way of building Bradford as a business centre as opposed to a dying centre.

Hmm. I agree they should have used the money to repave Kirkgate, Ivegate, John St, and connect up the North Parade area to Darley Street, rerouting traffic away from John Street. With the paving to the same standard as Darley Street and the Heritage Streets, coupled with improving and making the shopfronts more uniform and upmarket, the shopping streets would certainly have been more attractive to shoppers and businesses. However, this would not have got the same attention and buzz as 'EUROPES LARGEST CITY CENTRE WATER FEATURE'[/QUOTE]

Theres no such thing as bad publicity as the old saying goes. Debatable but the park will help inward investment, Sheffield mps said on look north the peace gardens brought on investment worth 10times more than the gardens price tag. I doubt it'll bring that much but Id be surprised in the park didnt bring at least £100million worth of investment over the next 10years.

However (and we all have our own take on this), I think the money would've been better spent being put towards new cross-city railway station. Personally I think first impressions count for a lot and a modern and attractive Bradford Central Station could help inspire investment. Business travellers won't be impressed with the interchange and this will no doubt hinder any chances of them bringing business to bradford in the future.

Hmm. I agree they should have used the money to repave Kirkgate, Ivegate, John St, and connect up the North Parade area to Darley Street, rerouting traffic away from John Street. With the paving to the same standard as Darley Street and the Heritage Streets, coupled with improving and making the shopfronts more uniform and upmarket, the shopping streets would certainly have been more attractive to shoppers and businesses. However, this would not have got the same attention and buzz as 'EUROPES LARGEST CITY CENTRE WATER FEATURE'

Theres no such thing as bad publicity as the old saying goes. Debatable but the park will help inward investment, Sheffield mps said on look north the peace gardens brought on investment worth 10times more than the gardens price tag. I doubt it'll bring that much but Id be surprised in the park didnt bring at least £100million worth of investment over the next 10years.

However (and we all have our own take on this), I think the money would've been better spent being put towards new cross-city railway station. Personally I think first impressions count for a lot and a modern and attractive Bradford Central Station could help inspire investment. Business travellers won't be impressed with the interchange and this will no doubt hinder any chances of them bringing business to bradford in the future.[/QUOTE]

Yep, the dead end small stations don't give the right impressions at all.

I think this "inward investment" expected, directly as a result of this "park" is a total pipe dream! I'd like an example where a muncipal public funded structure, statue, fountain whatever, has enlivened a socially dead area. It doesn't happen like that, not without private cash and businesses, it could/should be an enhancement/enticement to an active social area.

I like it, but not excitably so, but I think it's a waste of a whole lot of money, wasn't it 28m not 24m? A pleasant area was already in place that could have been enhanced and/or extended economically.

"EUROPES LARGEST CITY CENTRE WATER FEATURE' Really? Well for such a claim to fame it is spectacularly unimpressive and unimaginative.

I don't know what to think, I am coming around to the idea that all investment in the centre is wasted investment, maybe Bradford should de-centralize and invest in it's fringes. The public funded Roberts Park has been a spectacular success, next to a socially and culturally lively, privately funded, thriving, Saltaire.

Re:- Sheffield, I would not expect the next "EUROPES LARGEST CITY CENTRE WATER FEATURE'" to have much economic benefit if it opened in Rotherham.....

I think this "inward investment" expected, directly as a result of this "park" is a total pipe dream! I'd like an example where a muncipal public funded structure, statue, fountain whatever, has enlivened a socially dead area. It doesn't happen like that, not without private cash and businesses, it could/should be an enhancement/enticement to an active social area.

I like it, but not excitably so, but I think it's a waste of a whole lot of money, wasn't it 28m not 24m? A pleasant area was already in place that could have been enhanced and/or extended economically.

"EUROPES LARGEST CITY CENTRE WATER FEATURE' Really? Well for such a claim to fame it is spectacularly unimpressive and unimaginative.

I don't know what to think, I am coming around to the idea that all investment in the centre is wasted investment, maybe Bradford should de-centralize and invest in it's fringes. The public funded Roberts Park has been a spectacular success, next to a socially and culturally lively, privately funded, thriving, Saltaire.

Re:- Sheffield, I would not expect the next "EUROPES LARGEST CITY CENTRE WATER FEATURE'" to have much economic benefit if it opened in Rotherham.....

The purpose of the park was to raise the land value of the surrounding area, which it has. We already have the Southgate developement complete, and there is more chance of the police station and odeon getting developed now, than there was before

But the Southgate development was completed before City Park, it involved the moving of Provident Financial from one building in the city to another and the addition of one hotel to the city. It may bring investment, but that's not the best example.

The purpose of the park was to raise the land value of the surrounding area, which it has. Has it? Hopefully it's raised it by over £28 million then we are on a winner!


We already have the Southgate developement complete, and there is more chance of the police station and odeon getting developed now, than there was before

Really? You probably saw the latest Odeon news, it wasn't good, I think it'll go but think that it is essential that it is saved because it can't be replaced.

Saw the guy on Look North yesterday arguing that it's going to bring people and investment into the city.

I'm sorry but, I have no intention whatsoever of visiting Bradford now that it has got what are, quite frankly, a few puddles in a public square. I hope that it does help sort Bradford out, I really do, but the £24m could have been spent better elsewhere.

Mark, in terms of private investment £24million is not a great deal of money. If any one of the three major builds come to fruition around the business park it will double that and jobs on top. This WILL deliver the £24million back through private investment and if it hadn't of been built then yes a couple of projects in that area may have gone ahead anyways but I doubt they would've had the potential to transform the city like this has. Creating an epicenter like the park has done will funnel investment, creating an attractively modern area of Bradford. & Theres not too many of them around.

Personally, I agree its nothing special but some people will take too it and from what I've read on the guardians website it will bring people to the area. So this will transform the city centre, create a focal point economically and socially, give at least a return on its money and draw in tourists. & yet your still slating it?

You would do well to find a situation in Great Britain that compares to the problems Bradford faces and yet you choose to compare it to Rotheram? A town 3 times smaller with little influence socially, politically and economically. Belittling Bradford with comments like that undermines your own judgement of you being a realist and more of a pessimist. Heres what a realist would say:

*There will be development around the park and it will be over £24million
*Bradfords economic situation is similar to what Sheffields was, but the difference is that Sheffield is a regional centre.
*'Europes Largest Water Feature' is a USP. Thats why its had so much attention in the media. Although, it doubt it will be going in any brochures any time soon.

The argument is not whether this was a good investment but whether there was better options for the amount of money spent.

While the fountain is alright, there needs to be a high quality green space there too. The majority of the park is paved, which is alright, but people are really drawn to green oasis' in cities, not more paved space.

Saw the guy on Look North yesterday arguing that it's going to bring people and investment into the city.

I'm sorry but, I have no intention whatsoever of visiting Bradford now that it has got what are, quite frankly, a few puddles in a public square. I hope that it does help sort Bradford out, I really do, but the £24m could have been spent better elsewhere.

The true cost is already being hidden, the budget was £24.4m and last Sept a £4m overspend was anounced, which makes it a minimum £28.4million cost, yet reporters have to print what they are told by the Council, which of late £24m is being quoted :lol:

The true cost is believed to be around £34 million :nuts:

There is also the question of booze being allowed, where already photos are emerging of people lounging around the pool with tinny in hand, whats next bags of booze?

This can't be a good image to portray because of the sorts that it will attract, and I should imagine that the bars won't be to happy about it either, because its not money going into their tills.

Paul, "Will transform the City", I don't see that it will, how will it? IMO it appears to have enhanced what was already the nicest part of the centre, it's "epicentre". A fountain and jets are not going to "create a focal point economically and socially", other euro cities gave up on such ideas in the '90's. I did not "slate it", I said I liked it but called it unimpressive and unimaginative, I stand by that and it's not an unpopular view....

The comparison I was making was not Rotherham v Bradford, but the similar problems Rotherham has with the proximity of Sheffield as Bradford does with Leeds, i.e I would not expect similar to attract much investment to Rotherham. I should have made that clearer.

How come it's so quiet every time I go there (4 times)? Is it packed out at night or something? The opening day will be a big success but as another poster pointed out, the day after will the same old............

I don't really understand this creating an attractively modern area of Bradford. & Theres not too many of them around. I'll omit the modern bit as I'd like the City to retain it's historical fabric, it's soul, what's left of it anyway. But Bradford has plenty of attractive areas, it's blessed with them, only the centre is not one of them. I've cycled from Saltaire through Thackley to Apperley Bridge today, that Bradford is wonderful. :)

If it does anything like Millenium Square has for Leeds, then it'll be money well spent, but the poor state of most of the rest of central Bradford may seriously hinder anything like the success of Millenium Square from happening.

Yeah but Millennium Square was delivered on the back of a boom that was already happening. It was bound to be a success in many ways, and there was a masterplan for the area that saw the City Museum, Carriageworks and Electric Press delivered, as well as what is now Wetherspoons.

The City Park has been delivered in a difficult time in a struggling city, and ultimately, there's not a clear direction for the area. It might be a success, but it's a totally different scenario to Millennium Square.

While the fountain is alright, there needs to be a high quality green space there too. The majority of the park is paved, which is alright, but people are really drawn to green oasis' in cities, not more paved space.

Totally agree, a sensible useful and economical project.

Yeah but Millennium Square was delivered on the back of a boom that was already happening. It was bound to be a success in many ways, and there was a masterplan for the area that saw the City Museum, Carriageworks and Electric Press delivered, as well as what is now Wetherspoons.

The City Park has been delivered in a difficult time in a struggling city, and ultimately, there's not a clear direction for the area. It might be a success, but it's a totally different scenario to Millennium Square.

This is exactly what I meant but did not state as eloquently. :) This "park" will not (in itself) enliven a socially dead area, how could it?


More bad news regarding the Odeon. http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9590168.Call_for_clarification_over_New_Victoria_Place_plans_in_Bradford/

The T&A article from earlier this week mentioned that the steel (within the concrete) was rusting, I accept that this happens and has been the cause of many bridge/building failures, does anybody know if the problem is repairable?

Even more bad news, one of the Odeon developers has gone bust!

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9590168.Call_for_clarification_over_New_Victoria_Place_plans_in_Bradford/

Bradford needs to integrate its heritage with the clear need for regeneration. Although a modernisation of certain areas I feel will create developer confidence rather than say, the repaving of north parade.

I also feel unimpressed by this but I think all the artist impressions and the 10years of article reading on this project has removed the wow factor for me. Hopefully its there for people who've never been to the city, making it an attractive area to invest. One thing that makes me think it might, is the media attention it has got (much more than I expected) and the fact that is totally unique.

I totally agree though with the previous comments, theres not enough greenery near the actual pool itself, it looks rather bland at times! Hopefully little tweeks and improvements will be made to the park in time.

I was in Bradford on Tuesday with my 4yrs old son. This is the first time I have seen city park and I was impressed. Real top quality. Some of the of the buildings that surround it are top class, the wonderful City Hall and the impressive Alhambra. The Provident building and even the banana looked good, simmering in the sunshine. Just a real frustration is the Odeon which could be marvellous if it was retained and developed but then I feel that frustration every time I go into Bradford, so much potential but very little of it realised. Overall an impressive development which is comparable with any public square in the country. Even my 4yrs old keeps saying can we go back to the fountains ? so another one who gives it the thumbs up.

The great sleight of hand commences. Pay no attention to the building behind this curtain...

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv188/Shades_photos/wrap.jpg

Ta dah! Everybody now wants to save the Odeon. :lol:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9594054.Bradford_West_Lib_Dem_calls_to_demolish_Odeon_but_include_towers_in_replacement/

I wonder if they are planning a "David Copperfield" ?

Screen off the building

Poooof

Remove the screen

Building has disappeared

Ta dah! Everybody now wants to save the Odeon. :lol:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9594054.Bradford_West_Lib_Dem_calls_to_demolish_Odeon_but_include_towers_in_replacement/

From the Monster Raving Loony Party :lol: :

Alan Hope, representing the Monster Raving Loony Party, said: “It can be retained and it can be returned to its former glory – sell it to Tim Martin and turn it into a Wetherspoons.”

Have any of the Bradford West by-election candidates said anything on the lack of action on Westfield or anything else relation to the state of Bradford City Centre.

George Galloway issued a press statement yesterday which contained this:

"I think the Bradford West by-election should be considered, in part, a referendum over the mismanagement which has brought the Odeon to the brink of collapse and left a huge hole in the heart of Bradford close by."

Funnily enough the T&A chose to omit the paragraph!

Here's the full version:

Thursday 15 March
GALLOWAY CONDEMNS ODEON VANDALISM
CALLS ON COUNCIL TO STOP DEMOLITION PLAN UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION

“What has happened to the iconic Odeon in the centre of Bradford is nothing short of wanton vandalism. Those responsible should be ashamed of themselves and must be brought to account.” So said George Galloway this morning, after news broke that one of the two companies that had contracted to “develop” the Odeon site through demolishing it has gone bust. He continued:

“I think the Bradford West by-election should be considered, in part, a referendum over the mismanagement which has brought the Odeon to the brink of collapse and left a huge hole in the heart of Bradford close by. Every candidate should declare what they want to see done about the Odeon. I, for one, want the plans to demolish the building abandoned and money immediately sought from government and elsewhere to restore and regenerate this beautiful and historic building. I challenge all the other candidates in the Bradford West by-election to join me in this.

“What's more the council should immediately put any plans to hand over this building for demolition on hold. We should see what the voters think and then make decisions in the light of this. And if the voters elect any candidate who has clearly stated that they want restoration of the Odeon, not demolition, then that is what should happen.”

George Galloway was writing today to the chief executive of Bradford District Council and to the Homes and Communities Agency to stop the proposed transfer of ownership to the demolishers, at least until after the by-election on 29th March

Even more bad news, one of the Odeon developers has gone bust!

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/9590168.Call_for_clarification_over_New_Victoria_Place_plans_in_Bradford/

Good news everyone!

The true cost is already being hidden, the budget was £24.4m and last Sept a £4m overspend was anounced, which makes it a minimum £28.4million cost, yet reporters have to print what they are told by the Council, which of late £24m is being quoted :lol:

The true cost is believed to be around £34 million :nuts:

I don't think it is smoke and mirrors, the answers is quite simple £28.4m is the net cost and the £34m is the gross. £28.4 with 20% VAT added, works out as just a nadge over 34. The figures are often seperated on construction projects.

What do you guys think of joining up the two train stations by heavy rail or light rail or even trollybuses?

It's been suggested for over 150 years but no-one has ever built it.

It has recently been mooted under the name 'Bradford Crossrail', but with estimates at around £150m, the cost can't be justified at the moment. It also requires considering that north Bradford is electrified on the Leeds NW electrification, whereas South Bradford is still running on diesel.

There is an opportunity to build the link with no progress on Westfield though as it wouldn't take too much demolition to get the line through, although it might require a rebuilding of Bradford FS, or an entirely new combined station. If Westfield is built though, it would be much more difficult.

I think any link here should be heavy rail, not tram-train.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9323282.Crossrail_link_looks_doomed__council_report_warns/

I don't think it is smoke and mirrors, the answers is quite simple £28.4m is the net cost and the £34m is the gross. £28.4 with 20% VAT added, works out as just a nadge over 34. The figures are often seperated on construction projects.

How can it be simple when the Council are reporting £24 million which falls far short of £34m even with VAT:nuts:

It's been suggested for over 150 years but no-one has ever built it.

It has recently been mooted under the name 'Bradford Crossrail', but with estimates at around £150m, the cost can't be justified at the moment. It also requires considering that north Bradford is electrified on the Leeds NW electrification, whereas South Bradford is still running on diesel.

There is an opportunity to build the link with no progress on Westfield though as it wouldn't take too much demolition to get the line through, although it might require a rebuilding of Bradford FS, or an entirely new combined station. If Westfield is built though, it would be much more difficult.

I think any link here should be heavy rail, not tram-train.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/localbrad/9323282.Crossrail_link_looks_doomed__council_report_warns/

Cheers Leeds#1 esp for that link - interesting comments.

Cheers Leeds#1 esp for that link - interesting comments.

If there was ever a proposal to link the stations using tram-train, I'd support it. But I'd prefer to see a heavy rail link. It's two relatively expansive rail networks so would open up many new heavy rail options if it was a heavy rail link, whereas tram-train would essentially mean it could only ever be used for West Yorkshire's commuter network.

This brings up an interesting proposal. Leeds City is at capacity now, and the western approach is very congested. But it's also a heavily used freight route from the NW/Scotland to the Midlands/SE, being the only north-south line that isn't the ECML or WCML.

Adding Bradford Crossrail would mean being able to bypass congested Leeds. This not only frees up capacity on the Airedale/Wharfedale/Harrogate lines into Leeds City, but gives a nationally beneficial business case to develop Bradford Crossrail.

If there was ever a proposal to link the stations using tram-train, I'd support it. But I'd prefer to see a heavy rail link. It's two relatively expansive rail networks so would open up many new heavy rail options if it was a heavy rail link, whereas tram-train would essentially mean it could only ever be used for West Yorkshire's commuter network.

This brings up an interesting proposal. Leeds City is at capacity now, and the western approach is very congested. But it's also a heavily used freight route from the NW/Scotland to the Midlands/SE, being the only north-south line that isn't the ECML or WCML.

Adding Bradford Crossrail would mean being able to bypass congested Leeds. This not only frees up capacity on the Airedale/Wharfedale/Harrogate lines into Leeds City, but gives a nationally beneficial business case to develop Bradford Crossrail.

This makes a lot of sense. However, would one Bradford Central be better then, or keep the two we currently have? I suppose if a central station was to be built, it would need 8 platforms at least, as the interchange and forster square have four a piece atm (I think). Keeping the two would be cheaper and possibly more convienient / less congestion?

I suppose if a central station was to be built, it would need 8 platforms at least

Rubbish. If trains weren't terminating and reversing, platforms wouldn't be needed for them to hang around in. Three would do (assuming the London services have a long term future).

Routeing freight round the tight single line western curve at Shipley and up the hill to Laisterdyke, just to end up at the same junction you wanted to avoid in the first place, doesn't sound like a particularly great idea. Sorry.

However, on the passenger side, it's right to point out that tram-train would be a wasted opportunity. The real gains would come from opening up journey opportunities from Airedale and Wharfedale towards Manchester.

There is merit in the notion that each pound spent crossing Bradford saves a certain amount of money upgrading Leeds, and it may even be one-pound-saves-one-pound, but don't expect anyone with an infrastructure budget to understand that equation before the 22nd century.

the business case would be far better if you also added the reopening of Low Moor-Thornhill Lees to it. Aside from a couple of missing bridges and a carpark extension, the trackbed is unspoilt all the way. This does several things.

1. Gives freight a direct access to the Midland main line, and east coast main line while avoiding Leeds. Freight can now leave the ECML at Doncaster, go up through Knottingley and Wakefield before taking the line through Bradford to Shipley & the S&C. With the link at Horbury, this also allows running straight through to the MML at Sheffield via Barnsley or via Wakefield & Rotherham.

2. Gives extra commuter services into Bradford. Reopening stations in the Spen Valley at Cleckheaton, Liversedge and Heckmonwike would give 3 large towns rail services, into both Bradford in the north, and Wakefield in the south. More passengers means more economic benefits across the board.

3. Allows existing resources to be more effectively used. Current trains from Ilkley & Skipton to Bradford terminate, under this plan they can run through, either to Knottingley via Wakefield (freeing up units from that shuttle service) or to Huddersfield via Halifax. This gives more capacity at the station as a whole, as there's no longer a need to turn trains around at termini. Also wipes a huge amount off the Bradford-London journey time if it can reach Pontefract via Heckmondwike rather than Brighouse.

Yes, before anyone says, this would require electrification. And, for my money, it would also need new stations at Thornhill Lees, Horbury Bridge, Clarence Park, Dewsbury Moor and Oakenshaw. But it would be incredibly beneficial for Bradford, and massively ease congestion at Leeds as an interchange station.

the business case would be far better if you also added the reopening of Low Moor-Thornhill Lees to it. Aside from a couple of missing bridges and a carpark extension, the trackbed is unspoilt all the way. This does several things.

1. Gives freight a direct access to the Midland main line, and east coast main line while avoiding Leeds. Freight can now leave the ECML at Doncaster, go up through Knottingley and Wakefield before taking the line through Bradford to Shipley & the S&C. With the link at Horbury, this also allows running straight through to the MML at Sheffield via Barnsley or via Wakefield & Rotherham.

2. Gives extra commuter services into Bradford. Reopening stations in the Spen Valley at Cleckheaton, Liversedge and Heckmonwike would give 3 large towns rail services, into both Bradford in the north, and Wakefield in the south. More passengers means more economic benefits across the board.

3. Allows existing resources to be more effectively used. Current trains from Ilkley & Skipton to Bradford terminate, under this plan they can run through, either to Knottingley via Wakefield (freeing up units from that shuttle service) or to Huddersfield via Halifax. This gives more capacity at the station as a whole, as there's no longer a need to turn trains around at termini. Also wipes a huge amount off the Bradford-London journey time if it can reach Pontefract via Heckmondwike rather than Brighouse.

Yes, before anyone says, this would require electrification. And, for my money, it would also need new stations at Thornhill Lees, Horbury Bridge, Clarence Park, Dewsbury Moor and Oakenshaw. But it would be incredibly beneficial for Bradford, and massively ease congestion at Leeds as an interchange station.

Not to mention:

- Direct access to a potential LBIA link and Harrogate from Manchester, Liverpool et al.

- Routing trains to a future LBIA link from the Midland Mainline or ECML via Bradford too. Bradford has a real opportunity to take advantage of the congestion in train travel around the Leeds City hub.

- A future spur off HS2 to LBIA via Bradford from Leeds.

World capital is rapidly shifting to the East. These markets are huge. For us to prosper we need to be able to get our goods and services to them. The sooner the great and good (not just in Bradford) realise that the LCR transport strategy needs to put LBIA at its hub the better.

Getting back to solely Bradford. Check out lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk (sites down at the mo) to see the rail links that Bradford. The concentration of rail around Bradford was on a par with Leeds until Beeching.

World capital is rapidly shifting to the East. These markets are huge. For us to prosper we need to be able to get our goods and services to them.

I am not being facetious, I don't know, but is this true? I thought the clever guys were now heading to South America?

What goods and services would we send to them that they cannot adequately provide for themselves?

So the tories want to let private companies build roads to get lots of projects moving. Without getting into the politics of this, I wonder if projects like a tong bypass / saltaire bypass could be built much sooner.

I understand it would incurr a toll, but if its very cheap, then it could prove very beneficial to the economy. People would have a choice of sitting in a queue, or paying to use the 'expressway'

Does anyone know what's happening down Hamm Strasse, with the half built building? I passed it on the bus this morning and there is scaffolding all around it and some blue material around the top. Looks like work could be continuing? I did see a sign last week saying development opportunity partially built etc. Maybe its been sold