If it wasnt for Greek Politics, I wouldnt know about Albania, I must admit.

I wonder who will be the next club to do this.


Portsmouth have something similar at the Fratton End but being the useless team they are it is not as good as Preston's effort.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/yfh45/Ports31.jpg

First of all, the bottom rows at Ibrox are very slightly raised in 3 of the stands (not as much as they used to be as Rangers lowered the pitch and fitted more rows of seats a few years ago), but not nearly as much as I would like (I have been to the stadium many times and it is not perfect, no stadium is........and I am not Bubomb).

http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/schottland/ibrox_stadium/images/Ibrox_b_05.jpg

2nd of all, having elevated front rows at the German grounds for example makes a MASSIVE difference. At most UK grounds, I absolutely hate being in the first few rows as you cannot make out what is going on across the pitch. But in an elevated front row of as little as 1m, the difference is massive without having any negative effect at all on the atmosphere. I experienced this in Rostock and the difference was huge. The bottom row actually was still a decent place to be seated and the atmosphere was superb!!

I cannot understand why any future stadium/stand would be designed with the front row of seats at pitch level. It has no advantages at all. I'm pretty sure in the future most countries will design stadiums will elevated front rows.

I have never met a football fan who if faced with a choice, would choose to sit in a front row seat at pitch level. It is always the last place in a traditional UK stadium that fans want to sit in due to the terrible view. You will be surprised just how much of a big difference a 1-2m elevated front row makes.

What's the current stadium in Tirana like?

Best stadium in Albania Currently:
http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/albania/tirana_stafa1.jpg

I love this thread. "Yeah I'd say about 200,000 capacity with retractable roof and movable pitch, with a moat around the edge... for fishing".

A hoverstadium which could travel from city to city would be awesome.

or a stadium constructed from the liquid metal that made up the skinny Terminator in Terminator 2. That way you could change the capacity for each event and change the design as fashion trends change!

BTW, the Nets did jump up from being 26th to 19th in averaging attendance at home according to ESPN as oppossed to last season, which Bruce Ratner, the new ownerm doesn't want anyone to know about in why he claims they should go to Brooklyn.

2004-2005
26. New Jersey 15,089
27. Orlando 14,583
28. Atlanta 14,456
29. Charlotte 14,431
30. NO/Oklahoma City 14,221

2005-2006
19. New Jersey 16,866
20. Milwaukee 16,617
21. Philadelphia 16,518
22. Charlotte 16,366
23. Seattle 16,198
24. Indiana 16,179
25. Minnesota 15,808
26. Memphis 15,793
27. Orlando 15,561
28. Houston 15,514
29. Atlanta 15,068
30. Portland 15,053

Hey guys actually i didn't believe that Albanians can build an olympic stadium not even one single new stadium!!!

I saw a few days ago some projects for buildings in tirana (their crappy capital) and i got anxious and scared.they were developing rapidly.so i wanted to see foreigners attitude towards albania.and i just saw what i had predicted.The rest of world is ignorant and sarcastic towards albania.

Nobady know anything about this small third world country,about this small american protectorat(which want to become USA united states of albania).

So after all this i have no doubt about which nation will continue being The SuperPower in the balkans for at least another 50 years. :)

PS.That's all folks. :) Let's get outta here

A gap for elevation is, in essence, unutilised space. As long as people continue to pay to sit in the front seats right at the bottom, clubs will not elevate them, as it will cut off revenue streams. EG there are probably 2 rows at the front that would have to go to make the front elevated to a height that would placate you,

2 x 800 seats at £25 a pop = £40,000 lost revenue per game.

With these extra seats the clubs can afford to employ another overpaid fairy with a questionable haircut and penchant for roasting teenagers.

Plus, young children often like sitting in the front rows to be nearer the players.

THE END

^why couldnt you just lower the field as opposed to raising the stands.
i believe Ohio State University in america did it and got rid of the running track adding a few thousand seats and being able to get the front rows elevated (which it previously wasn't).

^why couldnt you just lower the field as opposed to raising the stands.
i believe Ohio State University in america did it and got rid of the running track adding a few thousand seats and being able to get the front rows elevated (which it previously wasn't).

Its the same thing. If you lower the pitch - more space becomes available for more rows of seating, which could bring in more £££. I could only see more rows not being added if there was no chance they could be sold.

And lowering the pitch costs money also, so if it isn't going to make the clubs money - what would be the point?

Clubs are profit seeking enterprises and as such, the rules of capitalism dictate what they do.

Plus, young children often like sitting in the front rows to be nearer the players.

Indeed, I'm sure there are more than a few people who like being so close to the action(at least compaired to being in the equivalent of the 3rd row in these raised stadiums) plus I think you lose something when a player can't score a goal then go right up to the fans. As someone said I can see the reason for it in US football with all the people on the sidelines but I preffer lower stands in europe.

It's probably to make hosting concerts easier. They are multi purpose stadia and in most cases probably not owned by the club themselves.

Giants Stadium in the Meadowlands is a good example of this.

It's probably to make hosting concerts easier. They are multi purpose stadia and in most cases probably not owned by the club themselves.

Giants Stadium in the Meadowlands is a good example of this.

I'm pretty sure rantanamo's right, you can so many people on the sidelines of NFL games you wouldnt be able to see anythign from some seats.

http://www.stadiumsofnfl.com/nfc/giants101.jpg

You cannot seriously be saying you would prefer to be sitting at pitch level compared to a seat 1m above pitch level. Being 1m above pitch level means you are still just as close to the action, but with a much better view. If I got a season ticket at pitch level I would return it. It is by far the worst seat in a stadium. You cannot tell what is happening on the other side of the pitch!!

http://i3.tinypic.com/whfedz.jpg

Some people like sitting in the first few rows at pitch height, some people do not. A stadium with pitch height seats gives this option. A stadium with elevated seats does not.

Simple.

Mods, make sure you IP ban him this time.

Mods, make sure you IP ban him this time.

Grow up and stop being such a drama queen.

couldn't see a thang if the front row wasn't high. Too many players, coaches, officials and reporters on an NFL sideline. Even where there are less people behind the endzones, you'd still have a hard time following the game on the other end of the field.

http://img51.exs.cx/img51/8553/ford242qs.jpg

from fifa stadium handbook

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9383/as3ew.th.jpg (http://img192.imageshack.us/my.php?image=as3ew.jpg)

Grow up and stop being such a drama queen.

Its pretty obvious who it is and while the subject isnt quite as obvious flamebait as normal this is going to go downhill fast.

Grow up and stop being such a drama queen.

What the heck are you defending him (bubomb) for?

Its pretty obvious who it is and while the subject isnt quite as obvious flamebait as normal its equally obvious this is going to go downhill fast.

No disrespect MoreOrLess, but have you actually stopped to listen to yourself?

Turn it in you turd.

No disrespect MoreOrLess, but have you actually stopped to listen to yourself?

Turn it in you turd.

Typed while watching TV.......obviously. ;)

Its pretty obvious who it is and while the subject isnt quite as obvious flamebait as normal this is going to go downhill fast.

Yeah, grow up ya fanny!

from fifa stadium handbook

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9383/as3ew.th.jpg (http://img192.imageshack.us/my.php?image=as3ew.jpg)


Thanks for that. First time I have seen that! Cheers.

Good elevation = bad atmosophere

Yeah, grow up ya fanny!

You're the one who after getting banned again will then spend minutes creating a new account...how many have you had now...10?

Just so you can come back on here and annoy us.

Quite sad.

I don't see how you're in any position to tell others to grow up.

You're the one who after getting banned again will then spend minutes creating a new account...how many have you had now...10?

Just so you can come back on here and annoy us.

Quite sad.

I don't see how you're in any position to tell others to grow up.

Grow up

What the heck are you defending him (bubomb) for?

Because for the most part he contributes more to this board thanmost others. Most of his posts are knowledgable and he provides easily accessible sources to his information. Occasionally he desends into slurs and insults, but so do most people on here, but at least his are amusing. AND harmless.

The first inflammatory comment on this thread was made by 'more or less' and so from then on the chance of it going downhill increased dramatically. Then he turned around and started calling for mods to ban his (the user allegedd to be bubomb) IP address! What was a decent topic worthy of discussion has now decended into a pointless arguement, unrelated to sports stadia.

Its obvious banning him won't stop him coming back. A proxy server will easily circumvent an IP ban, so why not just let him be?

Too many people on here take the Internet far too seriously. And all the whining is getting boring.

You have stated a logical and sensible point of view Socrates, and i'm afraid it will go way over the heads of people like 'eddyk' and his usual bum chums!

This thread was going fine (an intelligent thread with good debate) until 'MoreOrLess' and 'eddyk' done their best to ruin it. But hey...let's just blame 'Bubomb'...its easier that way!!

You've got to see the irony in that...

^^ Yep

Poor sightlines !
http://www.boca-japan.com/images/data/bombonera-fiesta_1024_768.jpg

cramped seating !
http://members.fortunecity.es/perikin/Utilidades/Estadios/Argentina/La-Bombonera-02.jpg

pitch level seats
http://www.idelberavelar.com/Post-images/Bombonera.jpg

but what the fuck, best football ground I've been in
http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/ibiken/imgs/c/2/c2f7d835.JPG

Rantanamo got it right. Most NFL stadia have elevated front rows at the sides to ensure that the players and team staff who are stood by the sidelines. In American football (if my memory serves me correctly), there are three whole 'teams', the Offense, the Defence and the Special (kicking) team. That's a lot of big guys hanging around by the side of the pitch at any given time, who would be blocking the sightlines of the first 6-8 rows of a conventionally configured (i.e. seats from ground level) stadium. As NFL Europe is much bigger in Germany than anywhere else, this explains why Veltins etc. have a built-in elevation. I'm not so sure why this is true of the José Alvalade, though.

In baseball, the players not on the field sit in the dugout, allowing the seating to go all the way down to pitch level.

To me, this is a bit of a non-argument for football (soccer). I've sat at pretty much every angle and height at Old Trafford (where the pitch is actually about head-high to those sat in the first row) and while there are vast differences between the front row of T1 and the back row of T3 (and , yes, I've sat in both), it's all about personal preference and even then difficult to simplify as 'better' or 'worse' . Both have advantages and disadvantages.

The higher up you are, the more you can appreciate the tactical shape of the game, but the less you can spot individual details. The closer you are, you lose the ability to tactically analyse the formations but the more interesting details are apparent. I certainly have no problem sitting up front. For one thing, the tickets tend to be cheaper. For another, it transforms even massive occasions like United v Arsenal in the FA Cup to a more 'Sunday League' feel. At OT you can see all other parts of the ground from the front. At the back, you can feel more marginalised (less so post-quads).

I once sat on the front row and watched Beckham and Veron play one-touch 'tennis' across the penalty area (stood about 30 yards apart) for a full five minutes in the warm-up before a United match. Yes, it would have been visible from the upper tiers too, but sat only yards away from Juan Seba Veron as he made sublime touch after sublime touch, it really brought home how talented these players are. I just wish he'd made more of his skills when it mattered. The point is that the first rows are not necessarily 'bad' seats by definition.

The point about kids congregating on the front row is also true - although in these days of all-ticket matches, this is a bit of a relic of the past. If you go to any rugby league game though, I'm sure you'll see this at most grounds.

With this in mind, it's no wonder many clubs have excavated down to add more seats and more revenue. It's not a new idea - Barcelona did it years ago and I'm sure they were by no means the first to do it.

People talk about gounds being 'tight' or 'compact' but in reality, the difference is only in the first 6-8 rows. Find enough people to fill those and the whole ground somehow has the illusion of being more intimate - even though the rest of the seats are just as far away as they would otherwise have been. I've always thought it a bit of a phoney point.

Because for the most part he contributes more to this board thanmost others. Most of his posts are knowledgable and he provides easily accessible sources to his information. Occasionally he desends into slurs and insults, but so do most people on here, but at least his are amusing. AND harmless.

The first inflammatory comment on this thread was made by 'more or less' and so from then on the chance of it going downhill increased dramatically. Then he turned around and started calling for mods to ban his (the user allegedd to be bubomb) IP address! What was a decent topic worthy of discussion has now decended into a pointless arguement, unrelated to sports stadia.

Its obvious banning him won't stop him coming back. A proxy server will easily circumvent an IP ban, so why not just let him be?

Too many people on here take the Internet far too seriously. And all the whining is getting boring.

He's a fairly knowledge guy who can put up a decent arguement when he wants to but unfortunately the vast majority of the time he preffers to post intensionally inflamatory remarks in order to start trouble and draw debate away from the original subject. I gave him a fair bit of respect when he started(which lead to me helping him divert debate into meaningless crap) and even in this thread until It seemed to be heading in the same direction.

Can you tell us all at which point you decided this thread was was heading towards 'meaningless crap'?

As far as I can tell, it started heading in that direction when you posted -

Mods, make sure you IP ban him this time.

As far as I can see, everything was going fine up until that point!!

It was pretty clear where it was going right from the start to anyone with any expereince of your posting here but when you started with the condescending "technical pictures" any doubt was removed. I'm not interested in providing amusement for you though so this will be my last response to you in this thread.

It's okay, he's been banned.

Socrates remains though...

It's okay, he's been banned.

Socrates remains though...

Well, I suppose we can all breathe a collective sigh of relief then.
But I have a question. Is there any reason whatsoever, that I should not be here?

It was pretty clear where it was going right from the start to anyone with any expereince of your posting here but when you started with the condescending "technical pictures" any doubt was removed. I'm not interested in providing amusement for you though so this will be my last response to you in this thread.


and I’m back again!


'Condescending technical pictures’???? What the fuck is a condescending technical picture??? How the hell can a technical picture be condescending???

Seriously, am I still on planet Earth here? as I seem to be communicating with very strange beings?

The thread was an intelligent and interesting thread, and you ruined it. Well done big man.


Yes folks, this is an example of a ‘CONDESCENDING’ technical picture??? -

http://i3.tinypic.com/whfedz.jpg

Well, I suppose we can all breathe a collective sigh of relief then.
But I have a question. Is there any reason whatsoever, that I should not be here?

A lot of the London posters are a bit racist towards Scots, and don't like to see Scots on the board. A poster called 'Lostboy' is openly racist towards Scots, and nobody blinks an eyelid!! You will notice that when they insult me, they always call me a 'Scottish' wanker, and not just a 'wanker'. Yet if I were to call them 'English' wankers, they would be up in arms accusing me of being an anti-English bigot. To be honest, some of the London based posters really are a bit thick!

You are from Scotland, so they will be hostile towards you even though in your case you have not done a single thing wrong!! I just tell them to GET IT RIGHT UP THEM!!

Originally Posted by Socrates
Well, I suppose we can all breathe a collective sigh of relief then.
But I have a question. Is there any reason whatsoever, that I should not be here?

Maybe you can answer why, below your avatar, you have the same quote as Bubomb, 'We are the people' only in French?

Coincidence...I think not
:)

'WE ARE THE PEOPLE' is a famous Rangers phrase in Scotland that Rangers fans always use! It's bloody obvious why he has it in French - our new manager!! Try and get an education in football before you start accusing people of all sorts!


http://photos.***************/wertp/stadiumpictures/large/22%2002%2006.jpg

http://www.townsend-records.co.uk/i/covers/6635868.jpg


Also check under 'Untitled Songs' in the link -

http://www.fisher.worldonline.co.uk/songs.htm

'WE ARE THE PEOPLE' is a famous phrase in Scotland that Rangers fans use! It's bloody obvious why he has it in French - our new manager!! Try and get an education in football before you start accusing people of all sorts!


http://photos.***************/wertp/stadiumpictures/large/22%2002%2006.jpg

On a side issue, what Rangers fans' organisation is responsible for those cards/mosaics that they seem to use quite often? Who pays for the cards (the club or the fans) and who actually sets them out? Is it usually 3 or all 4 stands that are done? It must take ages. It's pretty cool though.

It's normally done through a supporters organisation called 'The Blue Order', although sometimes other supporters groups arrange displays. The fans pay for it through donations and set the whole thing up themselves using volunteers. Sometimes 3 stands are used, sometimes all 4! It takes a hell of a lot of work!!

http://gersnet.info/fmrangers/blueorder/gallery.html


http://gersnet.info/fmrangers/blueorder/images/twosticks/2.jpg

It's normally done through a supporters organisation called 'The Blue Order', although sometimes other supporters groups arrange displays. The fans pay for it through donations and set the whole thing up themselves using volunteers. Sometimes 3 stands are used, sometimes all 4! It takes a hell of a lot of work!!

Cool. The one with the Scottish flags behind the goals and the Union flag running the length of the pitch, any idea how much something like that would cost?

Not sure what the total cost was, definitely in the thousands. Here's a wee video of one of the displays

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3vIPs71Bw

Maybe you can answer why, below your avatar, you have the same quote as Bubomb, 'We are the people' only in French?

Coincidence...I think not
:)



I'm sure 'Socrates' will accept your apology.......that is if you are man enough to give one!!

Maybe you can answer why, below your avatar, you have the same quote as Bubomb, 'We are the people' only in French?
Coincidence...I think not

'WE ARE THE PEOPLE' is a famous Rangers phrase in Scotland that Rangers fans always use! It's bloody obvious why he has it in French - our new manager!! Try and get an education in football before you start accusing people of all sorts!


http://photos.***************/wertp/stadiumpictures/large/22%2002%2006.jpg


Whoah there horsey: theres 10,000 people in that picture with "We are the people" written below them.
Are they all bubomb?

I think 30.000 sounds about right.

Hey guys actually i didn't believe that Albanians can build an olympic stadium not even one single new stadium!!!

I saw a few days ago some projects for buildings in tirana (their crappy capital) and i got anxious and scared.they were developing rapidly.so i wanted to see foreigners attitude towards albania.and i just saw what i had predicted.The rest of world is ignorant and sarcastic towards albania.

Nobady know anything about this small third world country,about this small american protectorat(which want to become USA united states of albania).

So after all this i have no doubt about which nation will continue being The SuperPower in the balkans for at least another 50 years. :)

PS.That's all folks. :) Let's get outta here

Not even worth it.

Hey guys actually i didn't believe that Albanians can build an olympic stadium not even one single new stadium!!!

I saw a few days ago some projects for buildings in tirana (their crappy capital) and i got anxious and scared.they were developing rapidly.so i wanted to see foreigners attitude towards albania.and i just saw what i had predicted.The rest of world is ignorant and sarcastic towards albania.

Nobady know anything about this small third world country,about this small american protectorat(which want to become USA united states of albania).

So after all this i have no doubt about which nation will continue being The SuperPower in the balkans for at least another 50 years. :)

PS.That's all folks. :) Let's get outta here


Moderators :cry:

LOL!
Thats low.

Are there Alligators in the moat? If not, why not?
No they arnt any alligators there, it would be nice if there was. Maybe I should recomment it to SAFA for 2010. Think about it, if there's a fan thats irratating the living shit out of you, you can gang up on him & feed him to the gators! the guards would mind because the stadium doesnt have to pay for food then :)

A French_Greek_scotsman? can it be Socrates?

In Portugal we have this ones from the same architect:

http://www.stadiumguide.com/josedealvaladenew3.jpg
http://www.stadiumguide.com/josedealvaladenew5.jpg


http://www.stadiumguide.com/leiria2.jpg

http://www.stadiumguide.com/aveironew2.jpg
http://www.stadiumguide.com/aveironew5.jpg

^^what were they trying to do there? make it look like vomit on the seats?

Portsmouth have something similar at the Fratton End but being the useless team they are it is not as good as Preston's effort.

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/park/yfh45/Ports31.jpg

Play Up Pompey

Play Up Pompey

Play Up Pompey

Play Up Pompey

Olympiakos new stadium is elevated, personally I like it better....



http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9924/dsc044343fm.jpg


http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/5569/dsc044372sa.jpg


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7866/dsc044404ci.jpg


http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/5694/dsc044578ai.jpg

http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/mexico/estadio_azteca/100.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/mexico/estadio_azteca/120.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/mexico/estadio_azteca/130.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/mexico/estadio_azteca/140.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/mexico/estadio_azteca/150.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/mexico/estadio_azteca/160.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/euro_2004/estadio_da_luz/images/innen_06.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/euro_2004/estadio_da_luz/images/innen_12.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/euro_2004/estadio_da_luz/images/innen_23.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/euro_2004/estadio_do_bessa/images/innen_12.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/euro_2004/estadio_do_bessa/images/innen_02.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/euro_2004/d_alfonso_henriques/images/innen_01.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/england/old_trafford/170.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/england/old_trafford/160.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/sued_10.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/hamburger_sv/images/nord_03.jpg
http://stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionguides/deutschland/eintracht_frankfurt/images/innen_01.jpg

Doesn't Telstra Stadium have a cool design? As well as Suncorp(or whatever its called now)?

Of course, you can't forget about the completely meaningless and irrelevant design at Knights Stadium in Charlotte.

http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/AAA/knightstadium.jpg

http://www.johnnyroadtrip.com/cities/charlotte/images/DBknightscastle.jpg

http://www.small-parks.com/Char2.JPG

No wonder no one goes there. And just a couple of years ago, they actually thought that if they added another deck, they could attrack a MLB team! :eek2:

Doesn't Telstra Stadium have a cool design? As well as Suncorp(or whatever its called now)?

Telstra Dome too. But they are hardly unique, they only really have different coloured seats with the patterns being so similar you'd swear they were drawn by the same kid.

http://www.stadionwelt.de/wmspecial/templates/stadionguides/leipzig/images/innen_27.jpg

Leipzig Zentralstadion

err...ok bubomb whatever you say

Why would PNE have the face of Nat Lofthouse on their seats if he never played for them? He only ever played for one club, Bolton.

Lofthouse had an amazing goal-scoring record for both England and Bolton Wanderers, his one and only club

http://www.thefa.com/England/SeniorTeam/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/2005/07/EnglandLegends_NatLofthouse.htm

Why would PNE have the face of Nat Lofthouse on their seats if he never played for them? He only ever played for one club, Bolton.



http://www.thefa.com/England/SeniorTeam/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/2005/07/EnglandLegends_NatLofthouse.htm


Errrrrr the Reebok doesn't have any fancy seat design other than the Reebok signs and a red stripe. It certainly doesn't have a mosaic of Nat Lofthouse!

Proof:

http://www.euro-goal.info/eurox/england/images/stadiums/a/reebok%20stadium1.jpg

Next.

Errrrrr the Reebok doesn't have any fancy seat design other than the Reebok signs and a red stripe. It certainly doesn't have a mosaic of Nat Lofthouse!

Proof:

http://www.euro-goal.info/eurox/england/images/stadiums/a/reebok%20stadium1.jpg

Next.

It looks pretty good for a seat design, Welly.

Next

No disrespect mate but I've forgotten more about seat design that you'll ever know. I was born with a plastic seat on my head. That's Finney and Lofthouse. Answer me this then, which team's mascot is called Lofty The Lion?

Correct. Named after? Nat Lofthouse.

hahaha, oh you thought you were so smart, clearly you definately HAD forgotten.

After reading this thread, I feel Scotland should bid for wc over England. :)

If by greatest you mean ZERO times European Cup winners Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, Fulham etc etc...then yes you're right.

Six clubs + Reading in the greatest league in the world. And yea, you can take The Arsenal of your zero European Cups list soon.

Barcelona very soon...

FC Barcelona (Camp Nou) 98934

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/spain/catalonia/barcelona_camp_nou1.jpg

Olímpic Lluís Companys 56000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/spain/catalonia/barcelona_montjuic1.jpg
RCDEspanyol.. 41.000 under construction..

http://www.rcdespanyol.com/galeria/thumbs/galeria/tn_1129739605.JPG

What will happen to the Montjuic then?

Six clubs + Reading in the greatest league in the world. And yea, you can take The Arsenal of your zero European Cups list soon.

If Crystal Palace win the playoffs there will be 7 London clubs in the premiership

Six clubs + Reading in the greatest league in the world. And yea, you can take The Arsenal of your zero European Cups list soon.

Woah: there are 6 London clubs in la liga?

^^ its pronounced The Premiership, do i need to say it a bit more slowly?

Woah: there are 6 London clubs in la liga?


Do you ever notice that only English people claim the 'Premiership' is the 'best league in the World'!! Self-praise means nothing! For the last 2 years the Premiership has been a joke with the league decided before a ball is kicked. Some of the games on Sky featuring the bottom half teams are so bad that you would have to pay me to watch them. Drab teams with drab supporters in 2/3 full stadiums with absolutely shit atmospheres! No colours, flags, displays or anything!! Just drab little people in their drab little clothes playing with their drab little mobile phones.

I only watch Spanish football on Sky Sports as the games are so much better with exciting teams and vocal fans. Look at the best team in Spain - Barcelona - a joy to watch, and look at the best team in England - Chelsea - a complete bore to watch!! I remember watching Aston Villa v West Bromwich Albion (a derby supposedly) and I was tempted to phone Sky to complain how pathetic the whole event was!! I had seen more atmosphere at a kick about at my local park. The stadium wasn’t even close to being full for a derby featuring 2 clubs from the 3rd biggest city in the UK. The actual football was shocking! The whole thing was truly pathetic!!

The sooner that Russian leaves the better, as the 2006/2007 Premiership (best league in the world you know :hilarious) is already a joke, as we all know who will win it - Chelsea. The Premiership used to be great, but now it is just shit! I don’t even bother checking the scores on a Saturday anymore!! I know what league I will be watching tonight - SPAIN!

Mexico's olimpic stadium, wasnt build for the olympic games,,,, almost all of its events are for football, it was the mexican team home until Azteca stadium was built,,,,,

everyone here in Mexico asociates this stadium with football, only 1 important athletics competition has been celebrated in more then 10 years

Mexico's olimpic stadium, wasnt build for the olympic games,,,, almost all of its events are for football, it was the mexican team home until Azteca stadium was built,,,,,

everyone here in Mexico asociates this stadium with football, only 1 important athletics competition has been celebrated in more then 10 years


Hey Diego - you ain't fooling anybody, this is the civilised world here, not Donkey Kong Country!!

The stadium is not a soccer stadium as it was built for athletics and other sports! It is a multi-purpose stadium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estadio_Ol%C3%ADmpico_Universitario

On yer bike Senior Willy!!

Do you ever notice that only English people claim the 'Premiership' is the 'best league in the World'!! Self-praise means nothing! For the last 2 years the Premiership has been a joke with the league decided before a ball is kicked. Some of the games on Sky featuring the bottom half teams are so bad that you would have to pay me to watch them. Drab teams with drab supporters in 2/3 full stadiums with absolutely shit atmospheres! No colours, flags, displays or anything!! Just drab little people in their drab little clothes playing with their drab little mobile phones.

I only watch Spanish football on Sky Sports as the games are so much better with exciting teams and vocal fans. Look at the best team in Spain - Barcelona - a joy to watch, and look at the best team in England - Chelsea - a complete bore to watch!! I remember watching Aston Villa v West Bromwich Albion (a derby supposedly) and I was tempted to phone Sky to complain how pathetic the whole event was!! I had seen more atmosphere at a kick about at my local park. The stadium wasn’t even close to being full for a derby featuring 2 clubs from the 3rd biggest city in the UK. The actual football was shocking! The whole thing was truly pathetic!!

The sooner that Russian leaves the better, as the 2006/2007 Premiership (best league in the world you know :hilarious) is already a joke, as we all know who will win it - Chelsea. The Premiership used to be great, but now it is just shit! I don’t even bother checking the scores on a Saturday anymore!! I know what league I will be watching tonight - SPAIN!

Wouldn't who wins the Champions League be a good gauge of the best league. Liverpool last year, Arsenal this year + Boro in the UEFA Cup

BTW Birmingham is the 2nd biggest city in the UK

The Premiership is the most watched league around the world by far, you may not like it but its true.

With a F1 race track tread, I've decided to do a tread about the other type of tracks: Ovals. So, what are your favorite oval?

Mine: Daytona International Speedway (although I live close to Phoenix Inernational Raceway)

http://www.eijournal.com/images/articles/daytona_int_speedway_feb13_2003_sm_DG.jpg
http://images.allposters.com/images/147/DAYTONA.jpg
http://www.stadiumpanoramics.com/images/nascar/daytona2003.jpg

The Premiership is the most watched league around the world by far, you may not like it but its true.


Yeah, and 'Britney Spears' has sold far more CD's than the great classical singer Andrea Bocelli, doesn't make her a better artist though does it.

'Independence Day' made far more money and was watched by far more people than 'Shichinin no samurai', it ain't a better film though is it!

^^ but the premership is

Wouldn't who wins the Champions League be a good gauge of the best league. Liverpool last year, Arsenal this year + Boro in the UEFA Cup

BTW Birmingham is the 2nd biggest city in the UK

Arsenal haven't won the Champions League, and the fact that Liverpool won it whilst being 40 odd points behind Chelsea in England (thus making them not even being close to being the best team in England, let alone Europe) kind of makes your argument irrelevant!

Arsenal haven't won the Champions League, and the fact that Liverpool won it whilst being 40 odd points behind Chelsea in England (thus making them not even being close to being the best team in England, let alone Europe) kind of makes your argument irrelevant!

no its suggests that England's 5th best team won the champions league last and maybe this year as well, shows the strength in depth of the teams in the Premiership.

Arsenal haven't won the Champions League, and the fact that Liverpool won it whilst being 40 odd points behind Chelsea in England (thus making them not even being close to being the best team in England, let alone Europe) kind of makes your argument irrelevant!

So if Liverpool won while being 40 odd points behind, then what could Chelsea have done?

No, it shows the Champions League is basically a Cup, just like an average team like West Ham getting to the FA Cup final.

^^ the champions league is a little bit different my friend, as firstly u play in a group stage and then in the knockout phase you play home and away, so it is a better indicator of the best teams. Arsenal and Barcelona have performed the best in europe this season, hence they are in the final.

So if Liverpool won while being 40 odd points behind, then what could Chelsea have done?

Nothing, because they got knocked out of a Cup format tournament because they had one bad game. In a league, one bad game doesn't matter as you have another 37 to make up for it!

Blackburn won the Carling Cup a few years ago!! Were they the best team in England?? No, of course not, because it is a Cup format tournament!! The Champions League is NOT a measure of the best team in Europe, it is not a proper league. Only a 40 game a season European League would be able to tell you the best team in Europe.

Chelsea are a European team. So Arsenal are a better team than Chelsea??? 33 points says that they are not!! Do you not understand the difference between a Cup and a proper league???

According to your logic, West Bromwich Albion are one of the best teams in Europe, as they beat Arsenal in a 90 minute one-off game this season.

^^ Just shows you greater depth in teams in the premiership

Then why have English teams won the Champions League only twice in the 14 years it has been running? In fact only 3 English teams in the last 14 years have managed to appear in a final, compared to 9 from Italy and 7 from Spain!

In fact, German teams have won the Champions League the same number of times as English teams!!!

cos english teams where banned for 5 years and had to get used to playing in the european arena again. now that they have they have started to win it again, btw English teams have won it the same amount of times as the Italian and Spainish teams even though they weren't allowed to play for 5 years. says it all really.

hahahaha, pathetic excuse. The English ban ended 3 years before the Champions League started.

Did you forget how to kick a ball in those 5 years or something?

English teams were really strong in the 80's (especially Liverpool), but for the last 15 years they have been shit in Europe. You have appeared in less Champions League finals than even German teams since the Champions League started 14 years ago (4 to Germany, 3 to England). Italy is on 9 and Spain on 7.

still the same amount of trophies as spain and italy, it is still the same trophy u know. the name changed and the format has changed a couple of times even while it was called the champions league, doesn't matter its still the european cup.

still the same amount of trophies as spain and italy, it is still the same trophy u know. the name changed and the format has changed a couple of times even while it was called the champions league, doesn't matter its still the european cup.

Yes, but most of them came about 20-25 years ago!! In recent times, you have been shit!!

I have no interest in Cups won before I was old enough to remember them, as I have no emotional attachment to them. I only care about trophies that I was around to watch on TV, read about in the paper, listen to on the radio etc.

Football tournaments before I was born, or was very young, are irrelevant to me, as I was not around to see them!

Aston Villa winning the European Cup in the early 80's is as relevant to me as whoever won the English League in 1925 - in other words, totally irrelevant as I have no emotions or feelings attached to either event.

Yes, but most of them came about 20-25 years ago!! In recent times, you have been shit!!


err in recent times, as recent as last year Liverpool won it and even more recent, Arsenal in the final this yearl. Do you really know what you are talking about?

hi! I hope thats the right place for my request.

I have seen a lot of fantastic stadium pictures in this forum. Now I´d like to ask all the photograhers of these, if you would like to send me those pictures for a book about football stadiums. The book will contain each country in the world with maps, lists, a big overview about stadiums/clubs/league systems and of course: Photos. I recieve a lot of help from all around the world, but there are thousands of stadium, where I havn´t got a photo yet. The book wil be published aomewhat in 2007 and of course your name will be below the pic.
please contact me at: oliver.leisner@gmx.net
regards from Hamburg
Oliver

I think the reason that only London and Glasgow hold this honour is that both are homes to national stadia that are set aside for football use. As England and Scotland are two of the very few countries where association football is the national sport and that do this national stadium thing and also boast clubs large enough to have stadia of this size, it's quite obvious that it's only going to be London and Glasgow. Take away the very little used national stadia, and no city qualifies.

.

You clearly know nothing about football. Hampden park is not a very little used national stadia, it is home to Queens Park FC and is used every second week for their home games. Rangers and Celtic could easily have 100,000 seater stadiums, if they had the money to build them. Ibrox had a capacity of 130,000, Celtic Park 95,000 and Hampden Park 150,000.

Did you forget how to kick a ball in those 5 years or something?

No, but you have to be stupid, not to understand how being starved of playing the best teams from Europe in competitions will naturally effect the quality of the league, and its prestige meaning fewer foreign players would want to come over and play. It obviously had an effect on England. Why else go from a position of dominance to losing against Galatasary on away goals?

Must be Bristol Motor Speedway or Pocono Racetrack

your best bet is to go to the webshots website and ask the photographers there. Huge selection of pretty much any place you can think of.

You must be the laziest researcher ever. If they send you the pics, do you want me to write the book for you so you don't have to do anything?

Talladega

fornebu arena, 15000, stabaek

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v396/bdogg187/BP.jpg

Heres a small rendering of a new Stadium for Charlotte's AAA baseball team the Knights. It should be about 10-15,000 seats. The Knight currently play about a little south of Charlotte in Fort MIll, SC and attendence is horrible because most people wont drive 20 minutes to the middle of nowhere to see a game, putting it downtown in a nice new ballpark would probably create more interest in the team.

Definatly not the best, but my favourite:

http://www.motorsport.com.au/images/calder/08.jpg

Thunderdome at Calder Park raceway, Melbourne, Australia.

ha.. this is a work for many years as a hobby. I travelled to more than 400 stadiums in europe by myself, so I asked people from outside europe...

Here are some stadiums from some Arabic countries -


New one in Egypt -

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/923/w6w200601141435204c7dad976ky.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2921/w6w200601141335560ece9dda2oq.jpg

Cairo -

http://www.fussballtempel.net/caf/EGY/International_Cairo_new.jpg


New one in Morocco -

http://pix.nofrag.com/9d/35/7848cb13ec08f61e0dd3f7978d9f.jpg

http://pix.nofrag.com/c7/6e/c7fd777c5785024d91358c0e3758.jpg

Stade Hassan II (Morocco) -

http://www.fussballtempel.net/caf/MAR/Fez_A.jpg


Stade du 7 novembre (Tunisia) -

http://www.fussballtempel.net/caf/TUN/7_novembre_A3.jpg

http://www.fussballtempel.net/caf/TUN/7_novembre_A.jpg

http://www.fussballtempel.net/caf/TUN/7_novembre.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/stadionwelt_stadien/templates/stadionlisten/tunesien/7_novembre_de_rades/110.jpg


King Fahd Stadium (Saudi Arabia) -

http://www.fussballtempel.net/afc/KSA/King_Fahd3.jpeg

http://www.fussballtempel.net/afc/KSA/King_Fahd2.jpeg

http://www.fussballtempel.net/afc/KSA/King_Fahd_A.jpg

to go for a first timer? I thought to myself, some Europeans love to lecture Americans on "footy". So I thought of a topic you could lecture on about. If you were to suggest one European football stadium to an American (or really any foreigner) to best take in just one time for the "footy" experience in terms of atmosphere, stadium, competitiveness, and what a prototypical European football what would it be? Please don't necessarily go with your favorite team or choose tourneys like the World Cup etc.

I might go to Europe at the end of the summer and I want to catch a game and want suggestions where the one place is that I should get my arzze into a seat to watch a game and get the epitome of experience..

hye me to, i'll be in europe, from mid july to august 8,,,

I'll be in London ( hope to see Wembley in person), Prage, Munich, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Paris, and Amsterdam..

i know that theres a lot of big clubs in cities i'm visiting ( Madrid, Chelsea, Barcelona, etc), but really like Nomarandlee, i'll like a great experience, my bets will be with some roman tifossi, or paris saint germain fans, or amsterdam ..

but lets listen to the european guys.

i know that theres a lot of big clubs in cities i'm visiting ( Madrid, Chelsea, Barcelona, etc), but really like Nomarandlee, i'll like a great experience, my bets will be with some roman tifossi, or paris saint germain fans, or amsterdam ..

but lets listen to the european guys.

You do realise you're going during the close-season? All the big teams will be off around the world playing meaningless pre-season friendlies before the season starts at the end of August.

Old Trafford would be the ultimate though if you could ever get here during the season.

:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

mmaaaaa,,, not even some league will start, or cup tournaments????

international frienlies?????

:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

mmaaaaa,,, not even some league will start, or cup tournaments????

international frienlies?????

No, it's World Cup year which means an even later start to pre-season training for most players. You'll get the lower league teams playing friendlies among each other at that time.

I'm not sure what date the Community Shield game at Cardiff is this year. That is like a showcase opener to the season between the winner of the Premiership (Chelsea) and the FA Cup winner (likely to be West Ham United). Tickets would be obtainable and I'd recommend it (decent stadium and decent crowd). Last year it was on the 7th August. I'll try and find a date for this year.

August 13th.

thanks wader,.. still i wont made it, since i come back in august 8,,, but again thanks,,,,

thanks wader,.. still i wont made it, since i come back in august 8,,, but again thanks,,,,

If you want a great experience, go and watch England play Pakistan in the cricket at Old Trafford cricket ground in a one day international on 27th July. It will be rocking. You can also walk across the road and have a stadium tour of Manchester United's football ground on the same day.

You might catch AZ - PSV (or even better; Ajax - PSV) in August for the Dutch Super Cup. It's played in Amsterdam Arena but there's no date set yet. Usually it's in early August or something, last year it was August 5th, and the stadium is always half-empty so there'll be no problem getting tickets. It should be a nice match but the atmosphere's going to be worthless I can tell you that.

I'm not sure what match it's going to be. This sunday, Ajax - PSV is the match for the Gatorade Cup, the Dutch cup. The Super Cup is the match between the cupwinner and leaguewinner. PSV has won the league but they might win the cup also and since they can't play their own team, the second team of the league (in this case, AZ) participates in the Super Cup. The Super Cup is called Johan Cruijff Schaal btw.
When PSV wins the Gatorade Cup this Sunday, you'll see AZ - PSV.
When Ajax wins the Gatorade Cup this Sunday, you'll see Ajax - PSV.

Amsterdam Arena is Ajax' stadium, so when Ajax plays in the Super Cup there should be more people on the stands and a way better atmosphere. I'll keep you updated who wins.

I'd say Anfield, the best atmosphere, best crowd, best team, best manager, the stadium.........its okay.

http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/4984/dsc018981jx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2608/dsc018992jk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I would also suggest Liverpool, for the Netherlands one could choose Groningen, Feyenoord or Twente. Those games usually have the most atmosphere.

i know that theres a lot of big clubs in cities i'm visiting ( Madrid, Chelsea, Barcelona, etc), but really like Nomarandlee, i'll like a great experience, my bets will be with some roman tifossi, or paris saint germain fans, or amsterdam ..

but lets listen to the european guys.

Many of the big clubs stadiums(Nou Camp, Old Trafford, Anfield) do have tours you can take and musesums you can visit outside matchdays.

In Spain, watch Sevilla in the Sanchez Pizjuan, always full.

If you want intensity go to Istanbul and Sukru Saracoglu (Fener)

If you want atmosphere in England go to a Championship Match.

I've heard they're playing a few games in Germany in the summer...

New Wembley (when its finished), Old Trafford, Emirates (possibly...when its finished of course), Allianz Stadium

.....those are the ones you should really check out!

:cheers:

There will be games in Germany, after the WC.
Ligapokal, a little pre-season tournament with best 6 clubs.

29.07.06 Quarter Finals
Leipzig Zentralstadion, and Düsseldorf LTU Arena - usually bad atmosphere there.

Don't know the dates for semi-final and final.

If you are travelling through Europe in the summer then the only option is the World Cup in Germany. And you're best bet is to take in a game involving a South American vs European side - Holland v Argentina is the pick of the Group stage games: 21st of JUNE though, in Frankfurt.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/germany/hessen/frankfurt_waldstadion2.jpg

If you are travelling mid July - August you will be lucky to see any games, however the best stadium tour to attend would be Ibrox. 10 times better than Old Trafford's tour. I've also done the Nou Camp in Barcelona which is not bad.

If you are travelling after August then there is only 1 game to see: an Old Frim derby between Rangers and Celtic.

Back to the issue,
The Netherlands and Belgium should just do it.
We will still never be a big competator for the big four leagues (Spain, England, Italy and Germany) But we will defently be much stronger as leagues as Portugal, Austria and Switserland (combinded) or the Royal league (Scandinavia, which is a very good inititative by the way).
We even would be a strong competator for France. scarry isn't it.
I know I am a dreamer and a stadionfreak (as you all are)
But based on stadioncap. and inhabitants of both countries the league would look more or less like this. My idea is based on 18 clubs not 16 (why 16????)

1 Ajax
2 Feijenoord
3 PSV
4 Club Brugge
5 Vitesse
6 Standaard Liege
7 SC Heerenveen
8 SC Anderlecht
9 RSC Charleroi
10Racing Genk
11 FC Utrecht
12 AA Gent
13 FC Groningen
14 NAC Breda
15 ADO Den Haag
16 AZ Alkmaar
17 RFC Antwerp
18 Willem II
18




Only based on 18 clubs for the premierleague
Belgium has about 10.364.388 (2005)
The Netherlands 16.306.000 (2005)

ok, I'll go first.

England - Manchester United
Wales - Cardiff
Scotland - Celtic
France - Marseille
Germany - Bayern Munich
Spain - Barcelona
Portugal - Benfica
Ireland - Linfield
Italy - AC Milan
Holland - Ajax
Austria - Rapid Vienna
Greece - Panathinaikos
Norway - Rosenborg
Sweden - Gothenburg

Have I missed many obvious ones or do you disagree with any?

Liverpool?

Real Madrid?

Liverpool?

You want to know the biggest club in Liverpool? Probably Everton. Can we keep to just the countries for now though and maybe we can do cities later.

If I've missed your country out please feel free to add it and the club you feel is its biggest.

What are the criteria for judging who is the 'biggest'?

Also: Celtic, Barcelona

http://i2.tinypic.com/x3g45f.jpg

Depending on the criteria there are probably loads more you've got wrong.

Barcelona are the 2nd biggest club in the world, they're certainly the biggest in Spain.

Many, many points add up to make a big club: history, stadium, support, turnover, profit, fanbase, success, fame, media interest, that indefinable je ne sais quois.

You want to know the biggest club in Liverpool? Probably Everton. Can we keep to just the countries for now though and maybe we can do cities later.

If I've missed your country out please feel free to add it and the club you feel is its biggest.

Errr I think he meant that an argument can be made for Liverpool being 'bigger' than Man Utd.

It all depends on how you define 'big'.

It should take into account (in ascending order of importance) - commercial/worldwide standing, history, fanbase, trophy haul.

As such, it's safe to say that some countries have 2 'biggest' clubs, where it's too close between the two that you can't really distinguish and hence make a call.

England being once such country - Liverpool/Man Utd.
Spain - Barca/Real (although methinks Real are by far the 'bigger' club - their trophy haul dwarfs the likes of AC Milan, Liverpool and Juve let alone Barca! And they have more of the rest in comparision to Barca anyways so they win on all counts)
Scotland - Celtic/Rangers
Italy - Juve/Milan

Most of the other countries are straight forward though.

Errr I think he meant that an argument can be made for Liverpool being 'bigger' than Man Utd.

It all depends on how you define 'big'.

It should take into account (in ascending order of importance) - commercial/worldwide standing, history, fanbase, trophy haul.

As such, it's safe to say that some countries have 2 'biggest' clubs, where it's too close between the two that you can't really distinguish and hence make a call.

England being once such country - Liverpool/Man Utd.
Spain - Barca/Real (although methinks Real are by far the 'bigger' club - their trophy haul dwarfs the likes of AC Milan, Liverpool and Juve let alone Barca! And they have more of the rest in comparision to Barca anyways so they win on all counts)
Scotland - Celtic/Rangers
Italy - Juve/Milan

Most of the other countries are straight forward though.

I think England is pretty much more straightforward than any other country.

Barcelona are the 2nd biggest club in the world, they're certainly the biggest in Spain.

Many, many points add up to make a big club: history, stadium, support, turnover, profit, fanbase, success, fame, media interest, that indefinable je ne sais quois.

These need to be ranked in order of importance though - for example, there is not a flipping chance that turnover and profit (as important as they are in todays game) are on a par with success.

IMHO, in ascending level of importance:

Revenue/Profit.
Worldwide standing/support.
Media interest.
Support through out the nation.
Fame/Indefinable je ne sais quois.
Stadium.
History.
Local fanbase.
Success.

I think England is pretty much more straightforward than any other country.

Then you are blatantly wrong.

Man Utd have a greater (undeniably) worldwide support, bigger stadium and hence rack in more revenue and so on.

But Liverpool has a richer history, and undeniably, the greater trophy haul.

These need to be ranked in order of importance though - for example, there is not a flipping chance that turnover and profit (as important as they are in todays game) are on a par with success.

IMHO, in ascending level of importance:

Revenue/Profit.
Worldwide standing/support.
Media interest.
Support through out the nation.
Fame/Indefinable je ne sais quois.
Stadium.
History.
Local fanbase.
Success.

Yeah so you make Nott'm Forest a bigger club than Rangers, Celtic, Arsenal and Newcastle. put together.

Well done,

I knew that was going to come up. :)

I've ordered them in ascending level of importance - success is without doubt what every club strives for, but current succcess is just as important as past successes. Also, Nottingham Forest don't have anywhere near what the clubs you mentioned have in the other categories, whereas Celtics, Arsenal's and Rangers trophy haul is comparable to Forests.

Newcastle are a shyte club.

Arenas in China and Far East

I was wonder how the arenas look like in China,Hong Kong,Taiwan,Singapore,Macau,Philipines,Indonesia,Korea,Malaysia and so on.I know there are some modern arenas,and that some new are gonna be built in China but I want to see some photos collected.So we can make a collection here.

Then you are blatantly wrong.

Man Utd have a greater (undeniably) worldwide support, bigger stadium and hence rack in more revenue and so on.

But Liverpool has a richer history, and undeniably, the greater trophy haul.

A richer hitsory!!!!! Funniest thing I've read all day.

As for an 'undeniably, the greater trophy haul', if you discount tin pot trophies like the League Cup, and just count the big three (FA Cup, League, European Cup) then they have won one more than us. 31 to 30 I think it is. Add in the fact we've been World Champions and they haven't and the fact we've won all three in one season and they haven't and the fact we've beaten them far more than they've beaten us, I think trophy haul is the only point they challenge us on and that is dubious at best.

We beat them all ends up, apart from trophy haul, which is too close to call. Like I said, we're far bigger. We averaged 6,000 more fans a game to them when we were in the 2nd division. The size of the two clubs is not even close.

FA League European Cup
6 18 5 = 29
10 15 2 = 27

The League Cup is not a 'tin pot' trophy, and neither is the UEFA Cup.

And yes we do have a richer history....

And if you're going to count the World Club Championship in, then you better count the Super Cup and Charity Shields too.

Anyways I'm leaving this thread because it's just going to end up in a Manc/Scouser outburst and inevitably, closed down. :)

First of all i can see that you only mean football club despite the title of the thread which is just clubs.

My list:

England - Manchester United,Arsenal,Liverpool (almost equal,the only top clubs through history)

Wales - Cardiff (I don't know)

Scotland - Celtic,Rangers (almost equal)

France - Marseille

Germany - Bayern Munich

Spain - Real,Barcelona (Real is clearly biggest as they have won 9 european championships in football and 10 i think in basketball when barce only 2 in total football-basketball.Real is clearly on the most succesfull clubs in the world but barce represents another area and an other ideology so it must be included either)

Portugal - Benfica,Porto (almost equal)

Ireland - Linfield (I don't know)

Italy - AC Milan,Juventus (Milan better in Europe,Juve better in Italy)

Holland - Ajax

Austria - Rapid Vienna

Greece - Panathinaikos,Olympiacos (almost equal-Panathinaikos most succesful club in world sports history,more than 474 worldwidely recognised titles,most than any other multisports club in the world www.wikipedia.og/panathinaikos)

Norway - Rosenborg

Sweden - Gothenburg

Israel - Maccabi Tel-Aviv

In some countries you can't say which one is better e.x. Scotland,Spain,Italy so at least 2 clubs must be inclunded.Do you agree with my ratings?

FA League European Cup
6 18 5 = 29
10 15 2 = 27

The League Cup is not a 'tin pot' trophy, and neither is the UEFA Cup.

And yes we do have a richer history....

And if you're going to count the World Club Championship in, then you better count the Super Cup and Charity Shields too.

Count the charity shield if you like. We've won it more times.

Richer history!!! Quality.

Only a Liverpool fan would argue they were as big as United. We both know that.

And we've won the FA Cup 11 times.

Different day, same old crap.

First of all i can see that you only mean football club despite the title of the thread which is just clubs.

My list:

England - Manchester United,Arsenal,Liverpool (almost equal,the only top clubs through history)

Wales - Cardiff (I don't know)

Scotland - Celtic,Rangers (almost equal)

France - Marseille

Germany - Bayern Munich

Spain - Real,Barcelona (Real is clearly biggest as they have won 9 european championships in football and 10 i think in basketball when barce only 2 in total football-basketball.Real is clearly on the most succesfull clubs in the world but barce represents another area and an other ideology so it must be included either)

Portugal - Benfica,Porto (almost equal)

Ireland - Linfield (I don't know)

Italy - AC Milan,Juventus (Milan better in Europe,Juve better in Italy)

Holland - Ajax

Austria - Rapid Vienna

Greece - Panathinaikos,Olympiacos (almost equal-Panathinaikos most succesful club in world sports history,more than 474 worldwidely recognised titles,most than any other multisports club in the world www.wikipedia.og/panathinaikos)

Norway - Rosenborg

Sweden - Gothenburg

Israel - Maccabi Tel-Aviv

In some countries you can't say which one is better e.x. Scotland,Spain,Italy so at least 2 clubs must be inclunded.Do you agree with my ratings?

I said Europe. Can we leave Israel out of this please.

Yeah I agree.We had better stop this conversation now cos will end up fighting with each other.I personally quit.

Worldwide standing/support.
Success.

FC Barcelona is the club in the world with the most members. (last time i checked it was something like 118000)

Count the charity shield if you like. We've won it more times.

Okay then, in that case League Cups and UEFA Cups and Super Cups too. We trump you lot.


Richer history!!! Quality.


Only a Liverpool fan would argue they were as big as United. We both know that.

Sure, in that we dominated Europe. What's more need to be said?


And we've won the FA Cup 11 times.

Whoops forgot about that. Anyways hopefully we shall make it 7 soon.

And yes I was tempted to check. :D

But now I leave again...if you ask me personally it's a toss-up between the two. But each to their own...

Uruguay - Peñarol
Argentina - Boca Juniors
Brasil - Flamengo

Which part of the word "Europe" do you not understand?

Schalke 04

By the way, Israel's inclusion is justified I believe - Israeli teams play in the European Cup, and Israel plays in the UEFA zone for FIFA (due to politicial problems)

By the way, Israel's inclusion is justified I believe - Israeli teams play in the European Cup, and Israel plays in the UEFA zone for FIFA (due to politicial problems)

Which part of the word "Europe" do you not understand?

And had you specified, at the beginning of the thread, whether it was teams that play in Europe or are geographically in Europe?

FC Barcelona is the club in the world with the most members. (last time i checked it was something like 118000)

118 000? Members? How do you qualify as a member? Register on the official site?

And had you specified, at the beginning of the thread, whether it was teams that play in Europe or are geographically in Europe?

The "country in Europe" part of the question was a clue.

France : Marseille and PSG in the Past and Lyon today, monaco is really good too but this year :s

Think St. Etienne were bigger than PSG in the past.

For me there is nly one big club in the world. Take a look on my avatar:D

The "country in Europe" part of the question was a clue.

Good point.

They do still play in Europe though - their clubs and their national team. ;)

In France, the old fashioned big clubs are Lens, Marseilles, and ASSE.

The biggest clubs are those with nationwide support, and that support could have been caused by a single event or a short single period in history. Trophies do not really come into it, it could be because a team captured the imagination of the public at one time and is still talked about now.

Feyenoord are Holland's nationwide team because of their working class roots, the same for Schalke in Germany. Juventus are big because they are supported by the people of Southern Italy. Their match against Inter is the national derby.

In Brasil it is Corinthians "O Timao" the big team or "O Timo do Povo" the team of the poor.

For me there is nly one big club in the world. Take a look on my avatar:D

Whcih team is that?I have never seen it before. :weirdo:

I think England is rare in this respect as it has 4 big clubs, 3 of which are in the G14: Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea. I don't know any other league that has as many big name clubs; most countries in Europe have just one or two. Then you've also got clubs which are verging on big name status such as Newcastle and Tottenham. I'd have to say Man U are the biggest from England at the moment though.

:cheers:

Chelsea aren't a big club, and I think even the Manc will agree with me on this one.

They're just newcomers who've got a sugar daddy who likes a little toy.

Think Jack Charlton and Blackburn - except I believe Charlton was actually a fan of the club?

Correct. Chelsea are small time.

Britain's top 5 clubs would be something like:

1. Manchester United
2. Celtic
3. Liverpool
4. Arsenal
5. Newcastle United

Chelsea wouldn't get a sniff. Clubs like Spurs, Everton, Rangers and Man City are bigger than Chelsea.

The biggest clubs are those with nationwide support, and that support could have been caused by a single event or a short single period in history. Trophies do not really come into it, it could be because a team captured the imagination of the public at one time and is still talked about now.

Feyenoord are Holland's nationwide team because of their working class roots, the same for Schalke in Germany. Juventus are big because they are supported by the people of Southern Italy. Their match against Inter is the national derby.

In Brasil it is Corinthians "O Timao" the big team or "O Timo do Povo" the team of the poor.

Interesting, becuase of Arsenal's geographic location; demographicly speaking they could get huge amounts of "support" if they were to win the Champions League in a fortnight? Combine this with a 14th League title/ And or retainment of the Champions League if we were to win it initially and in my eyes Arsenal would be virtually equal to United in terms of trophy haul.

United were extremely lucky that they won several titles on the emergence of sattelite TV as in my opinion that aided their rise.

Correct. Chelsea are small time.

Britain's top 5 clubs would be something like:

1. Manchester United
2. Celtic
3. Liverpool
4. Arsenal
5. Newcastle United

Chelsea wouldn't get a sniff. Clubs like Spurs, Everton, Rangers and Man City are bigger than Chelsea.
Rangers are the biggest club in Britain perhaps with the exception of Man U.

Errr....

Rangers are the biggest club in Britain perhaps with the exception of Man U.

as a non english and non scottish i must...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Here is my list

England - Liverpool
Wales - Cardiff (I don't know any else)
Scotland - Rangers
France - Marseille by far
Germany - Bayern Munich
Spain - Barcelona
Portugal - FC Porto
Italy - Juventus
Belgium - Anderlecht
Netherland - PSV
Austria - Rapid Vienna
Greece - Panathinaikos
Turkey - Galatasaraï Istambul
Norway - Rosenborg Trondheim
Sweden - Malmoë
Monaco - AS Monaco
Switzerland - FC Basel
Ukraine - Dynamo Kiev
Russia - Spartak Moscow
Brasil - Flamengo
Argentina - Boca Junior
USA - NY Cosmos


Have I missed many obvious ones or do you disagree with any?[/QUOTE]

Manchester Utd
Liverpool
Arsenal
Chelsea

China's not interested in the rest. They are what the Americans would call "small market teams". Teams with loyal, large followings, but only a limited growth potential.

Here is my list

England - Liverpool
Wales - Cardiff (I don't know any else)
Scotland - Rangers
France - Marseille by far
Germany - Bayern Munich
Spain - Barcelona
Portugal - FC Porto
Italy - Juventus
Belgium - Anderlecht
Netherland - PSV
Austria - Rapid Vienna
Greece - Panathinaikos
Turkey - Galatasaraï Istambul
Norway - Rosenborg Trondheim
Sweden - Malmoë
Monaco - AS Monaco
Switzerland - FC Basel
Ukraine - Dynamo Kiev
Russia - Spartak Moscow
Brasil - Flamengo
Argentina - Boca Junior
USA - NY Cosmos


Have I missed many obvious ones or do you disagree with any?[/QUOTE]

:rofl: :rofl:

Manchester Utd
Liverpool
Arsenal
Chelsea

China's not interested in the rest. They are what the Americans would call "small market teams". Teams with loyal, large followings, but only a limited growth potential.

Chelsea's position will fluctuate, depending on Mourinho/Abhramovic.

Three years ago, it could've been argued that position was taken up by Newcastle.

Roll back 2 years before that and it's Leeds.

I wouldnt call Chelsea a big club just because they won the league. There are loads of teams in the English League that are miles bigger than Chelsea. Newcastle, Liverpool, Westham, United, Arsenal, Spurs, Leeds and Wolves.

The biggest clubs are those with nationwide support, and that support could have been caused by a single event or a short single period in history. Trophies do not really come into it, it could be because a team captured the imagination of the public at one time and is still talked about now.

Feyenoord are Holland's nationwide team because of their working class roots, the same for Schalke in Germany. Juventus are big because they are supported by the people of Southern Italy. Their match against Inter is the national derby.

In Brasil it is Corinthians "O Timao" the big team or "O Timo do Povo" the team of the poor.

As much as I hate to admit it (I don't like them), Ajax is the biggest club in The Netherlands. They have the biggest support (also the least loyal) and the biggest trophy cabinet. They are the most hated team in The Netherlands as well. Both Ajax and Feyenoord (and to a lesser extend PSV) have fans all over the country.

My guesses are:

England: Manchester United
Scotland: Rangers
Germany: Bayern München (either Schalke, Dortmund or Mönchengladbach as the no.2)
France: Olympique Marseille (with AS Saint-Etienne as no.2)
Spain: Real Madrid
Italy: Juventus
The Netherlands: Ajax
Belgium: RSC Anderlecht
Portugal: SL Benfica (by miles, apparently 60% of Portugal's population supports them)
Greece: 1. Olympiakos, 2. Panathinaikos, 3. AEK
Russia: Spartak Moskva
Ukraine: Dynamo Kiyev
Denmark: Bröndby IF or FC FC København
Sweden: IFK Göteborg
Norway: Rosenborg BK
Austria: Rapid Wien
Switzerland: FC Basel or Grasshopper Zürich

I wouldnt call Chelsea a big club just because they won the league. There are loads of teams in the English League that are miles bigger than Chelsea. Newcastle, Liverpool, Westham, United, Arsenal, Spurs, Leeds and Wolves.

As Chelsea continue to buy top players they will develop a new supporter base, amongst kids, immigrants, overseas supporters. The World changes and as Chelsea hog the TV channels and newspapers, their support will grow to the detriment of other clubs.

Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea.

These clubs will pull away from all other clubs in Britain.

Newcastle, Wolves, Leeds, West Ham, Villa, Rangers, Celtic are all strictly small market with no growth potential unless one of them buys a Beckham type player and one of them will not appear for another 20 - 30 years.

As Chelsea continue to buy top players they will develop a new supporter base, amongst kids, immigrants, overseas supporters. The World changes and as Chelsea hog the TV channels and newspapers, their support will grow to the detriment of other clubs.

Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea.

These clubs will pull away from all other clubs in Britain.

Newcastle, Wolves, Leeds, West Ham, Villa, Rangers, Celtic are all strictly small market with no growth potential unless one of them buys a Beckham type player and one of them will not appear for another 20 - 30 years.

You obviously know nothing about English football.

Spurs are well capable of catchning the others. The only difference between Spurs and Arsenal is that the Arsenal have had a top manager for 10 years. if Tottenham do well over the next 10 yeras under Jol they can get back to being in the nationas elite again.

Leeds to a lesser extent are also capable under the right manager.

You will notice that Tottenham is not on any of my lists. Why,? because I'd forgotten about them. Yes I would say Tottenham do have growth potential, they are a very big club. However they need to get moving, Arsenal will have 24,000 more seats than Tottenham soon, Chelsea will have about 19,000 more seatsin the future. Tottenham need to build or move and then they may eventually add to their two league championships.
At the moment though Tottenham's support is strictly regional, as is Arsenal's and Chelsea's.

As Chelsea continue to buy top players they will develop a new supporter base, amongst kids, immigrants, overseas supporters. The World changes and as Chelsea hog the TV channels and newspapers, their support will grow to the detriment of other clubs.

Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea.

These clubs will pull away from all other clubs in Britain.

Newcastle, Wolves, Leeds, West Ham, Villa, Rangers, Celtic are all strictly small market with no growth potential unless one of them buys a Beckham type player and one of them will not appear for another 20 - 30 years.


In terms of real supporters, Rangers are the 2nd the biggest club in Britain. Rangers sold 650000 strips in Scotland last year, only Man United sell more strips in the UK (and only slightly more). Celtic have a higher average attendance than Rangers, but this is only because their stadium holds more. Nearly every club in Scotland who has Rangers or Celtic as an away team, gets a bigger attendance when Rangers visit their stadium.

http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/teams/Rangers.html
http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/teams/Celtic.html

Clubs like Liverpool/Arsenal might have millions of mickey mouse fans in China/Denmark etc due to TV coverage of the Premiership, but in terms of real supporters (people who travel to watch games) their supports are absolutely tiny compared to Rangers. Liverpool can't even sell out Anfield for a lot of games despite playing in a massive league!!

An example was Arsenal's laughable support for a Champions League Semi-Final. They took 2000 fans to Spain for the most important game of their history. One week later, Rangers took 12000 fans to Derby for a friendly!! Even Hibs took 1500 to an unknown Ukrainian city this season for a 1st round UEFA cup tie. Hearts took 4000 to Switzerland for a run-of-the-mill UEFA cup tie last year. Arsenal fans will try to make excuses, but 2000 for a Champions League Semi-Final is pathetic. Arsenal are NOT a big club if they can only generate an away support of 2000 for such a massive game!!

Rangers record attendance at Ibrox is 118567, this is the kind of support Liverpool/Arsenal can only dream about.

Rangers are Champions League regulars, yet they still take 10000+ to every away game they play in Europe. They took 18000 to Munich for a normal Champions League game a few years ago, 12000 to Porto this year and 20000 to Villareal for a last 16 game this year. Arsenal/Liverpool can only dream of these kind of supports.

Put Arsenal/Liverpool in the Scottish league, and their attendances would be about 20000 a game. Put Rangers in the Premiership and they would easily get 80000+ a game. No English club could get 50000 every week whilst playing teams like Livingston every week in a league like the SPL.

Arsenal/Liverpool may have millions of people who say "Arsenal is my favourite team", but these are not real 'supporters'. Real supporters go to games. Some guy in China saying 'I flucking love Liverpool' is NOT a real supporter!!


As for the who is the biggest club in Scotland, here are some facts so you can make up your own mind (these are facts, not opinions) -


Higher average attendance in the 116 Scottish league years -

Rangers - 108
Celtic - 8 (and only because their stadium is now bigger)


League titles -

Rangers 51
Celtic 40


League Cup -

Rangers 24
Celtic 13


Scottish Cup -

Celtic - 33
Rangers - 31


European trophies -

Celtic 1 (I must admit the EC is much better than the ECWC)
Rangers 1


Record home attendance -

Rangers - 118567
Celtic - 92000


So make up your own mind!

^^ Good luck getting WC tickets.

As much as I hate to admit it (I don't like them), Ajax is the biggest club in The Netherlands. They have the biggest support (also the least loyal) and the biggest trophy cabinet. They are the most hated team in The Netherlands as well. Both Ajax and Feyenoord (and to a lesser extend PSV) have fans all over the country.

My guesses are:

England: Manchester United
Scotland: Rangers
Germany: Bayern München (either Schalke, Dortmund or Mönchengladbach as the no.2)
France: Olympique Marseille (with AS Saint-Etienne as no.2)
Spain: Real Madrid
Italy: Juventus
The Netherlands: Ajax
Belgium: RSC Anderlecht
Portugal: SL Benfica (by miles, apparently 60% of Portugal's population supports them)
Greece: 1. Olympiakos, 2. Panathinaikos, 3. AEK
Russia: Spartak Moskva
Ukraine: Dynamo Kiyev
Denmark: Bröndby IF or FC FC København
Sweden: IFK Göteborg
Norway: Rosenborg BK
Austria: Rapid Wien
Switzerland: FC Basel or Grasshopper Zürich

Spot on, This list is perfect. I'm not sure about Switzerland and I would choose Brondby for Denmark (far more league trophies).

You will notice that Tottenham is not on any of my lists. Why,? because I'd forgotten about them. Yes I would say Tottenham do have growth potential, they are a very big club. However they need to get moving, Arsenal will have 24,000 more seats than Tottenham soon, Chelsea will have about 19,000 more seatsin the future. Tottenham need to build or move and then they may eventually add to their two league championships.
At the moment though Tottenham's support is strictly regional, as is Arsenal's and Chelsea's.


any talk of a new Chelsea stadium is exactly that .... talk!

Belgie heeft nooit meer inwoners gehad dan NL ,hoe kom je erbij???
of begrijp ik de text verkeerd :D

Paps, in 1815-1830 waren we één land. Toen was er net de Industriële Revolutie en ging het heel goed met Wallonië dus de Zuidelijke Nederlanden hadden veel meer inwoners dan de Noordelijke Nederlanden. Frans was er toen veel machtiger dan Nederlands. Echter beide Nederlanden hadden gelijke rechten wat de Zuiderlingen in het verkeerde keelgat schoot en uiteindelijk werd men onafhankelijk van Nederland.

The number of away fans is no reflection on a club's size. Barcelona and Real Madrid have relatively small numbers of travelling supporters yet Besiktas can muster 55,350 in neutral Gelsenkirchen for a match against Chelsea. Does that make Besiktas bigger than Barcelona. Shirt sales again is no reflection, it just reflects the maturity of the market. Some teams are in mid cycle when it comes to shirts, others have just flogged them to death that the market demands something different. Size of any sports team can only be measured in the number of people willing to shell out on all products, shell out on watching them on TV and following them in the media.

The biggest club in Europe by support, once all the non European fans are taken from the equation, are Juventus.

^^ Already sold out long time. Black markets tickets price can go up to some thousands of euros.

But again, please specifiy the dates when you're in which city. I'd guess you want to see matches and not empty stadiums. Mostly the interesting mid-season games are Super Cups as I already said.

Reasons why Rangers are bigger than Celtic please. I'm not knocking it, I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why.

Many thanks.

The biggest club in Europe by support, once all the non European fans are taken from the equation, are Juventus.

You were doing well until that bit.

Than I pissed my pants.

The new Beckham type player is already here, hes called Wanye. There is more hype over him and hes making money than Becks was when he was 20. By the time hes 30 he can be way bigger than Becks.

Also why are Chelsea going to have 19,000 more seats in the future and also it wouldnt matter because they could never fill a 50,000+ ground every week, never mind a 60,000 ground. London already has too many clubs and Arsenal have their new ground so its going to be even harder for anyone to build a new ground. The next new ground that someone gets its likely to be the new olympics stadium and its after 2012, 6 years away.

Just because someone buys a shirt it doesnt mean they are a real fan. A real fan is someone has supported their club through bad and good over years and years. Example, My dad has supported United all his life and hasnt brought a United shirt in about 20 years but he goes to all the United games. In the treble year he didnt miss a home game or any away European game. Thats a real supporter.

Also the Scotttish League isnt really very exciting its just Rangers and Celtic. Trust, Arsenal and Liverpool are way bigger than Rangers, they are just small fry compared. Also I dont know where you got Arsenal only took 2000 to Villareal, I heard all the pubs round the ground where full of Arsenal fans.

In Germany, Dortmund is way bigger then Munich. In fact, Dortmund has the best spectator average of Europe. Not just Germany, it's the best visited club of Europe.

Reasons why Rangers are bigger than Celtic please. I'm not knocking it, I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why.

Many thanks.

Higher average attendance in the 116 Scottish league years -

Rangers - 108
Celtic - 8 (and only because their stadium is now bigger)


League titles -

Rangers 51
Celtic 40


League Cup -

Rangers 24
Celtic 13


Scottish Cup -

Celtic - 33
Rangers - 31


European trophies -

Celtic 1 (I must admit the EC is much better than the ECWC)
Rangers 1


Record home attendance -

Rangers - 118567
Celtic - 92000

In Germany, Dortmund is way bigger then Munich. In fact, Dortmund has the best spectator average of Europe. Not just Germany, it's the best visited club of Europe.

Yeah that's because they pay the knobs to watch them.

^^Well you can still apply for conditional tickets.

All I know is that I have my tickets for the Mexico vs Portugal game.:)

www.google.com

Higher average attendance in the 116 Scottish league years -

Rangers - 108
Celtic - 8 (and only because their stadium is now bigger)


League titles -

Rangers 51
Celtic 40


League Cup -

Rangers 24
Celtic 13


Scottish Cup -

Celtic - 33
Rangers - 31


European trophies -

Celtic 1 (I must admit the EC is much better than the ECWC)
Rangers 1


Record home attendance -

Rangers - 118567
Celtic - 92000

What's the current turnover of the two? Trophies won doesn't really cut it with me.

Haven't seen a thread about this topic so i thought i should start one off and also thought it would be interesting to see everybodys favourite stadium roof design along with any views on stadium roof design in general.

I'll start off with Oita Stadium, Japan.

This is my favourite stadium roof because of its simple main arch structure and its unique eliptical design which gives it its 'big eye' nickname. The roof incorporates teflon membrane panels which have 25% light-permeablity which means the stadium is naturally lit during daylight hours.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8923/roof8vt.png

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9840/oitastadium10ik.jpg

http://img351.imageshack.us/img351/441/oitastadium32fe.jpg

The new Beckham type player is already here, hes called Wanye. There is more hype over him and hes making money than Becks was when he was 20. By the time hes 30 he can be way bigger than Becks.

Also why are Chelsea going to have 19,000 more seats in the future and also it wouldnt matter because they could never fill a 50,000+ ground every week, never mind a 60,000 ground. London already has too many clubs and Arsenal have their new ground so its going to be even harder for anyone to build a new ground. The next new ground that someone gets its likely to be the new olympics stadium and its after 2012, 6 years away.

Just because someone buys a shirt it doesnt mean they are a real fan. A real fan is someone has supported their club through bad and good over years and years. Example, My dad has supported United all his life and hasnt brought a United shirt in about 20 years but he goes to all the United games. In the treble year he didnt miss a home game or any away European game. Thats a real supporter.

Also the Scotttish League isnt really very exciting its just Rangers and Celtic. Trust, Arsenal and Liverpool are way bigger than Rangers, they are just small fry compared. Also I dont know where you got Arsenal only took 2000 to Villareal, I heard all the pubs round the ground where full of Arsenal fans.

Wayne's ugly.

The new Beckham type player is already here, hes called Wanye. There is more hype over him and hes making money than Becks was when he was 20. By the time hes 30 he can be way bigger than Becks.

Also why are Chelsea going to have 19,000 more seats in the future and also it wouldnt matter because they could never fill a 50,000+ ground every week, never mind a 60,000 ground. London already has too many clubs and Arsenal have their new ground so its going to be even harder for anyone to build a new ground. The next new ground that someone gets its likely to be the new olympics stadium and its after 2012, 6 years away.

Just because someone buys a shirt it doesnt mean they are a real fan. A real fan is someone has supported their club through bad and good over years and years. Example, My dad has supported United all his life and hasnt brought a United shirt in about 20 years but he goes to all the United games. In the treble year he didnt miss a home game or any away European game. Thats a real supporter.

Also the Scotttish League isnt really very exciting its just Rangers and Celtic. Trust, Arsenal and Liverpool are way bigger than Rangers, they are just small fry compared. Also I dont know where you got Arsenal only took 2000 to Villareal, I heard all the pubs round the ground where full of Arsenal fans.

Arsenal and Liverpool have tiny supports compared to Rangers. I mean real supporters, not guys in China who watch them on the TV. The only reason Arsenal and liverpool have bigger turnovers is because of the league they play in. Put Rangers in England and they would dwarf Arsenal and Liverpool. Put Arsenal/Liverpool in Scotland, and their stadiums would be 75% empty!!

Just ask any Derby County fan, they now know just how massive Rangers are.

Can Arsenal/Liverpool take 12000 fans to a friendly in Derby? No. Can Arsenal/Liverpool take 10000+ to every single game they play in Europe? No. Could Arsenal/Liverpool get 50000 every week against the likes of Livingston? No.

Also the Scotttish League isnt really very exciting its just Rangers and Celtic. Trust, Arsenal and Liverpool are way bigger than Rangers, they are just small fry compared. Also I dont know where you got Arsenal only took 2000 to Villareal, I heard all the pubs round the ground where full of Arsenal fans.

Villareal only has about 4 pubs so it wouldn't be hard.

You were doing well until that bit.

Than I pissed my pants.

Apparently it's true. But they all live in Southern Italy.

Trophies won doesn't really cut it with me.

what kind of football fan are you????

Oita is a cool stadium, just like most of the stadiums from the 2002 WC, I like some of the german ones like Wolfsburgs and Duisburgs. But I can't think of my favourite design. I just know however that someone might pick Allianz's, in which case they will be severely misguided

what kind of football fan are you????

With regards club size, numbnuts.

bigger clubs tend to win more trophies incase you didn't notice!!

10 million Juventus Fans in Italy but I cannot get a link that shows it without having to read about 8 pages.

10 million Juventus fans :rofl:

That's why their average is only 20,000 a match.

See, you can't compare turnover between say Rangers and Arsenal because they're different leagues and stuff, and for what it's worth, I agree Rangers and Celtic would blow them out of the water if they played down here, but Rangers and Celtic share the same city, league, television deals etc. I'd say the team with the bigger turnover of the two, is currently the bigger club of the two. Simple.

Any figures from say the last 5 years?

10 million Juventus fans :rofl:

That's why their average is only 20,000 a match.

they have 5000000 disabled and 4980000 armchair fans

Yeah i particularly like Wolfsburgs, very unusual design, it sort of reminds me of Seoul Stadiums roof, although i prefer the one in Seoul.

bigger clubs tend to win more trophies incase you didn't notice!!

"Tend" is the key word in that statement.

See, you can't compare turnover between say Rangers and Arsenal because they're different leagues and stuff, and for what it's worth, I agree Rangers and Celtic would blow them out of the water if they played down here, but Rangers and Celtic share the same city, league, television deals etc. I'd say the team with the bigger turnover of the two, is currently the bigger club of the two. Simple.

Any figures from say the last 5 years?

Yes, celtic have a slightly bigger turnover due to the fact that they have an extra 10000 season ticket holders (their stadium has 10000 more seats). This year Rangers will have a bigger turnover due to the fact they got about £15 million form the Champions League and Celtic got £1.40. Per season ticket holder, both clubs have almost identical turnovers.

10 million Juventus fans :rofl:

That's why their average is only 20,000 a match.

They watch on TV. That's where the real attendance figures are. We live in a digital age.

If both clubs had 100,000 seater stadiums, which do you think would have the higher average attendance?

For what it's worth, I do prefer Rangers. I hate that shower of shite. They're the scouse of Scotland. I'm just not convinced Rangers are a bigger club. Yet.

They watch on TV. That's where the real attendance figures are. We live in a digital age.

That makes Walford Town the biggest club in Britain then.

If both clubs had 100,000 seater stadiums, which do you think would have the higher average attendance?

For what it's worth, I do prefer Rangers. I hate that shower of shite. They're the scouse of Scotland. I'm just not convinced Rangers are a bigger club. Yet.

At the moment, both would get about the same. 100000 would be far too big whilst playing in Scotland. Only Old-firm games and European games would sell out.

That makes Walford Town the biggest club in Britain then.

No but it means Eastenders is more popular than Manchester United.

..............

For the best experience of true "footy" atmosphere I'd say go to any Borussia Dortmund game, seeing that German league fans are the craziest in Europe.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/misc/de@bdo.jpg

European trophies -

Celtic 1 (I must admit the EC is much better than the ECWC)
Rangers 1



Yup that’s right you are still trailing Aberdeen as the only Scottish team to have ever won two European trophies, Woohoo suck on that wide B(h)oys!

It seems to me they're pretty evenly matched. Celtic have the bigger ground, Rangers have the better ground. Rangers have won more titles, Celtic have won the big one. Turnover is pretty similar depending on the success of that particular season.

I think it's going to come down to which of the two clubs' female fans are the most fuckable. Do you get more totty at Celtic Park or Ibrox?

Here is my list

England - Liverpool
Wales - Cardiff (I don't know any else)
Scotland - Rangers
France - Marseille by far
Germany - Bayern Munich
Spain - Barcelona
Portugal - FC Porto
Italy - Juventus
Belgium - Anderlecht
Netherland - PSV
Austria - Rapid Vienna
Greece - Panathinaikos
Turkey - Galatasaraï Istambul
Norway - Rosenborg Trondheim
Sweden - Malmoë
Monaco - AS Monaco
Switzerland - FC Basel
Ukraine - Dynamo Kiev
Russia - Spartak Moscow
Brasil - Flamengo
Argentina - Boca Junior
USA - NY Cosmos


Have I missed many obvious ones or do you disagree with any?[/QUOTE]

FENERBAHCE is definitely the biggest club in Turkey no question about it!

Has the largest number and most loyal fans, most league titles, biggest stadium, biggest attendance and best facilities all by far. Also is the club with most official members and the club with biggest budget by a long long shot Fenerbahce is officially amongst Europe's 20 richest clubs. Don't expect any other team to win the Turkish title for years to come and if there is a team that can be successfull internationally consistently it is Fener. It shouldn't surprise you if some really big international signings are made this summer as it is the 100th anniversary of the club.

One lucky golden generation put together with transfers that are causing a team to get bankrupt won the UEFA and supercup for Galatasaray but now they can't even deliver their players paychecks. Whereas Fenerbahce is growing consistently (Going on to our 3rd consecutive league title at the moment) with the support of a huge fanbase and humiliating Galatasaray as usual on the pitch as 2 weeks ago 4-0. hehehehe

FENERBAHCE is definitely the biggest club in Turkey no question about it!

Has the largest number and most loyal fans, most league titles, biggest stadium, biggest attendance and best facilities all by far. Also is the club with most official members and the club with biggest budget by a long long shot Fenerbahce is officially amongst Europe's 20 richest clubs. Don't expect any other team to win the Turkish title for years to come and if there is a team that can be successfull internationally consistently it is Fener. It shouldn't surprise you if some really big international signings are made this summer as it is the 100th anniversary of the club.

One lucky golden generation put together with transfers that are causing a team to get bankrupt won the UEFA and supercup for Galatasaray but now they can't even deliver their players paychecks. Whereas Fenerbahce is growing consistently (Going on to our 3rd consecutive league title at the moment) with the support of a huge fanbase and humiliating Galatasaray as usual on the pitch as 2 weeks ago 4-0. hehehehe

I hate Galatasaray with a passion but have to admit they are by far the biggest club in Turkey. Far bigger than FENERBAHCE.

http://i2.tinypic.com/x422c0.jpg

http://i2.tinypic.com/x422s3.jpg

118 000? Members? How do you qualify as a member? Register on the official site?


In the FC Barcelona the partners are the proprietors of the club (almost 140,000 partners,the biggest in the world) who pay an annual account

remember the Barça is more than a club.....


and FC Barcelona is not ony football.. is also

Basketball.. (this year finalist in the Final four)
the best in handball and rinkhockey..futsal,Athletics,baseball,ice hockey, rugby, Field hockey
.....

http://i2.tinypic.com/x422c0.jpg

http://i2.tinypic.com/x422s3.jpg

Jesus H... Rangers it is then!!!

They watch on TV. That's where the real attendance figures are. We live in a digital age.
In that case PSV must be the biggest club in the Netherlands. :D

Best watched 'programs' of 2005 in the Netherlands:


http://www.kijkonderzoek.nl/kijkcijfers/pub/kijkcijfers.php?j1


Feyenoord (about whom you said earlier they were the biggest because of nationwide support) are far behind both Ajax and PSV in TV-attendence. Not only in 2005, but also previous years.

The truth is, TV-attendence is related to success (more than stadium visits)

^^^^^

Just because they are more famous in Europe because of their management managed to ruin them by signing astronomic transfers 5 years ago and won the UEFA cup as a result does not mean that they are bigger. It's absurd to say that GS is bigger than FB. Not even A galatasaray fan would beleive it in his heart even if he says so to you. They lost to Norwegian TROMSO in the first round of the UEFA cup this year their attendance is about 15000. Whereas Fenerbahce's season ticket number last season was 25000... That's 5000 more than their stadiums capacity. We play our games to over 40000 consistently and in bigger games 52000 sellout crowds compared to a lowly 15000 - 20000!!!!!! Season tickets are not the oldest thing in Turkey and next seasons prediction is about 35000 already at 22000 at the moment. Our budget is way over the 100 000 0000 euro mark and growing immensly predicted to hit 200 000 000 euros by 2010.


In a couple of years Fenerbahce will be a regular contender for European titles... It's a club with 20 000 000 million fans! That is not a joke! I promise you that there will be a huge signing this summer and you will say what the F!!

Spot on, This list is perfect. I'm not sure about Switzerland and I would choose Brondby for Denmark (far more league trophies).

Brøndby was nothing before their old mayor started pumping illegal public money into the club in the early eighties.
Brøndby have won 10 league trophies. FC Copenhagen have won 26 including the 2 "mother clubs" B1903 and KB (Number 27 will come Thursday or Sunday this week :) ).
Brøndby is a boring suburb mostly build up in the sixties. KB are the oldest football club in the world outside the British Islands.
FC Copenhagen have a bigger average attendance, a bigger fan club, a much bigger revenue, and a bigger stadium.

You will notice that Tottenham is not on any of my lists. Why,? because I'd forgotten about them. Yes I would say Tottenham do have growth potential, they are a very big club. However they need to get moving, Arsenal will have 24,000 more seats than Tottenham soon, Chelsea will have about 19,000 more seatsin the future. Tottenham need to build or move and then they may eventually add to their two league championships.
At the moment though Tottenham's support is strictly regional, as is Arsenal's and Chelsea's.

Tottenhams support not strictly regional. I am from the north east. there are plenty of spurs fans everywhere. Spurs are one of the elite clubs inc, Arsenal, man u and Liverpool (not chelsea) that have multiregional fans.

arsenal have a big following up north. The sports cafe was packed in leeds for the semi final against leeds. Arsenal are probably the best supported team in leeds after Leeds, Man U, Liverpool.

I happen to be an expert on Turkish football.

This is the correct order:

1. Galatasaray
2. Besiktas
3. Fenerbahce


I still can't get over Mrs T. Is that a genuine pic or have you Photoshopped the badge on her?

Another example if all I have said previously regarding Fenerbahce is not convincing maybe this: www.antu.com Fenerbahce's largest forum is the second largest football forum on the planet and the largest club forum. It is the 131. largest amongst all forums on the internet..

http://www.big-boards.com/kw/soccer/

^^^^^

You just wont listen will you man all the facts are there wasn't it you who said that trophies don't make a club BIG??????

Brøndby was nothing before their old mayor started pumping illegal public money into the club in the early eighties.
Brøndby have won 10 league trophies. FC Copenhagen have won 26 including the 2 "mother clubs" B1903 and KB (Number 27 will come Thursday or Sunday this week :) ).
Brøndby is a boring suburb mostly build up in the sixties. KB are the oldest football club in the world outside the British Islands.
FC Copenhagen have a bigger average attendance, a bigger fan club, a much bigger revenue, and a bigger stadium.


Brondby have 10 leagues and 5 Danish Cups, Krapenhagen have 4 leagues and 3 Danish Cups. No contest i'm afraid. Supports are very similar -

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveden.htm


In Europe, Brondby have reached -

UEFA Cup Semi-Final
European Cup Quarter final


In Europe, Krapenhagen have reached -

NOTHING!!

The number of away fans is no reflection on a club's size. Barcelona and Real Madrid have relatively small numbers of travelling supporters yet Besiktas can muster 55,350 in neutral Gelsenkirchen for a match against Chelsea. Does that make Besiktas bigger than Barcelona. Shirt sales again is no reflection, it just reflects the maturity of the market. Some teams are in mid cycle when it comes to shirts, others have just flogged them to death that the market demands something different. Size of any sports team can only be measured in the number of people willing to shell out on all products, shell out on watching them on TV and following them in the media.

The biggest club in Europe by support, once all the non European fans are taken from the equation, are Juventus.

Besiktas got that many because they are all ex pats living in germany. Not turkish that flew to germany. Get your facts right mr know it all.

^^^^^

You just wont listen will you man all the facts are there wasn't it you who said that trophies don't make a club BIG??????

What facts? Those boards are hopeless. It's got Crystal Palace at two and United's crappest board at six when it's not even in the top six United boards.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3630/sounessflag1me.jpg

I happen to be an expert on Turkish football.

This is the correct order:

1. Galatasaray
2. Besiktas
3. Fenerbahce


Aren't you also an expert on gantries as well?

Message to all those from outside Europe - avoid England games if you don't want a broken nose!! As soon as an England fan hears your accent he will attack you like a wild animal!!

Brondby have 10 leagues and 5 Danish Cups, Krapenhagen have 4 leagues and 3 Danish Cups. No contest i'm afraid. Supports are very similar -

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/current/aveden.htm



That average attendence are not updated. And in the danish league the teams play 3 times against each other, and Brøndby had 2 derby matchet at home this season.
http://www.netsuperligaen.dk/VisTilskuerStatistik.php

And as I said FC copenhagen are also KB and B1903. FCK: 26 Leagues and 6 danish cups.

Danish Champions:
http://www.dbu.dk/page.aspx?id=687

Danish Cup Winners:
http://www.dbu.dk/page.aspx?pid=92

You are a 6 saray fan in disguise FLip FLOP hahaha sooo obviouss

Fenerbahce sells more jerseys than Besiktas and GS do combined times 2!!!! With the money we pay NICOLAS ANELKA and STEPHEN APPIAH we could buy their whole squad.

Fenerbahce is selling a fan card this year with no real benefit to the fan except getting an ID card in your pocket that shows that you have benefitted your club. 40 000 and counting in a month between 30 - 200 euros a piece estimated 125 000 by a year. Fenerbahce's own store FENERIUM sold over 30 000 000 euros worth of gear in 2005. About double the amount of GS - BJK combined. That is a loyal fanbase!!!

Saying that Galatasaray or Besiktas is bigger than Fenerbahce is as ABSURD as saying that Newcastle is bigger than Liverpool or Man U. Check your facts before you blab about! There is only ONE truely big team in Turkey and that is FENERBAHCE!! All the rest can do is sell each other games and let the team that has the biggest chance of catching FENER beat the other, get money from corrupt politicans, and help elect their fans as the president of the Turkish FA, and buy try to buy out the refs.

FC København were fromed by a merger of two teams, so you are a new club. Leagues won by the previous different TWO clubs are not your trophies. It is ridiculous to claim leagues won by two totally different teams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_K%C3%B8benhavn

In my country (UK), most people would reply 'Brondby' if they were asked who they thought were the biggest team in Denmark. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is!!

You are a 6 saray fan in disguise FLip FLOP hahaha sooo obviouss

Fenerbahce sells more jerseys than Besiktas and GS do combined times 2!!!! With the money we pay NICOLAS ANELKA and STEPHEN APPIAH we could buy their whole squad.

Fenerbahce is selling a fan card this year with no real benefit to the fan except getting an ID card in your pocket that shows that you have benefitted your club. 40 000 and counting in a month between 30 - 200 euros a piece estimated 125 000 by a year. Fenerbahce's own store FENERIUM sold over 30 000 000 euros worth of gear in 2005. About double the amount of GS - BJK combined. That is a loyal fanbase!!!

Saying that Galatasaray or Besiktas is bigger than Fenerbahce is as ABSURD as saying that Newcastle is bigger than Liverpool or Man U. Check your facts before you blab about! There is only ONE truely big team in Turkey and that is FENERBAHCE!! All the rest can do is sell each other games and let the team that has the biggest chance of catching FENER beat the other, get money from corrupt politicans, and help elect their fans as the president of the Turkish FA, and buy try to buy out the refs.

Fan wise I'd say Newcastle were bigger than Liverpool. The scum certainly couldn't sell out 52,000 every week. They can't even sell out 45,000 every week.

And answer me this, if Fenerbahce are such a big club, why do they have the worst stadium in the Super Lig?

^^^^^^

Fenerbahce have the best stadium in the Super lig this discussion is getting pointless it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Fenerbahce Sukru Saracoglu Stadi has applied for the 2008 UEFA CUP Final and has a great chance of getting it.

It can not even be compared with Galatasaray's little shanty town stadium or Besiktas's stadium capacity or modernity wise.

Here's a link to our stadium

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=167398&page=4&pp=20

^^ Looks like a nice place to visit actually. Not the stereotypical diarrhea inducing stadium I would expect for a turkish team