Bangalore International Airport thread [Archive] - Page 8

bialterminal

April 21st, 2008, 06:07 AM

Yesterday's airport built today?

Although the new banglaore airport (BIAL) is impressive compared to the old HAL airport (i definitely like the spacious interiors with it's high
ceiling and plenty of natural sunlight); the new one leaves a lot to be desired. The new airport is something that we needed about 8 years

back. The airport somehow feels incomplete with features being shifted to the 2nd phase leaving BIAL in a catchup mode. Here is what I think

should have been available as part of the 1st phase at a minimum considering the importance of Bangalore to the country's economy -

1) A bigger terminal with complete dual level separation of arrivals and departures capable of handling 20 million passengers from
the word go. Following is a very true statement I came accross in an article -
"When it comes to infrastructure, excess capacity, in itself, generates growth."
Please read an amazing article on HKIA here - http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2004/07/12/stories/2004071200320900.ht

Delhi airport which handled about 12.4 million passengers in 2005(april)-2006(march) with terminals 1A,1B and 2 available was coming apart. They had perhaps about 10 to 13 aerobridges at that time.

at it's seams.
Mumbai airport which handled 12 million passengers in 2003(april)-2004(march) with terminals 1A,1B and 2 available was coming apart. Again, they also had around 10 to 15 aerobridges at that time.

BIAL has a paltry 9 when we are experiencing an explosive growth in air traffic.

2)Second, I am concerned about the lack of the concept of passenger concourses connecting the main terminal. In such
a scenario the concourses are the areas where passengers wait before boarding their flights or wait between flights. The
main terminal with complete dual or 3 levels would be where passengers are processed (departure checkin,security,arrival baggage claim,

customs and immigration). Please note that eventhough BIAL has an upper level, the checkin and arrivals are sill at gound floor level each

occupying half the length of the building. Imagine if these two were completely vertically
separated! the passenger handling capacity of the same building, combined with a passenger councourse concept extending from the terminal

would have doubled the capacity.

3)As stated by many folks, I am concerned by the lack of vertical separation/segregation between arrival and departure road traffic outside

the terminal. This feature should have been built for the 1st phase. Mumbai intntl terminal 2 designed and initially constructed in 1981 has

this feature (the terminal was later expanded in phases till 1999). Delhi international terminal also has vertical separation and this was

commissioned in 1986! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Indira-Gandhi-Airport.jpg)

4) Absence of a multi-storey public ground transportation center for - 1)rail station 2)buses 3)taxis 4)hotel/airport shuttles with a

dedicated road link separating it from private vehicles. The transportation center should have direct pedestrian bridges into the main

terminal complex so that pedestrian trffic would have easy access & be grade separated from vehicular traffic on the terminal road.
Beijing airport :-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaspope/2288450036/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaspope/2288276552/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaspope/2265160028/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaspope/page5/
Seoul Incheon Airport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Incheonairport-arexstation-jpgver.jpg
ttp://archrecord.construction.com/projects/bts/archives/transportation/03_Incheon/overview.asp

5) For the same reasons mentioned above in 3; a multi-storey car park is needed in the 1st phase with direct pedestrian bridge access to the

terminal.

6) Most importantly, why have rapid exit taxiways have been provided only on the runway 09 threshold side? As part of 1st phase rapid exit

taxiways should have been provided at both ends.
http://www.bialairport.com/project_facilities_infrastructure.htm?cid=leftnavigation&ses=bial#

7) How could an airport be built without connectivity being developed parallely at the same time in India's single most economically important city of the 21st century? Hong Kong airport was built with full rail and road connectivity with a capacity for handling more than twice the number of passengers compared to the old Kai Tak airport -
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/engineering/airport/interactive/interactive.html

We probably need not exactly copy expensive solutions like Shaghai (http://www.shanghaiairport.com/en/pd.jsp?categoryId=OUT_CON_B0100)but at least decent things like dedicated high speed bus ways :-
a) in Beijing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Beijing_Bus_Rapid_Transit.jpg
b) i could not believe this; this picture is from the unofficial drug capital of the world Bogota, Columbia which i thought is a third world country
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Estacionelevada.jpg

For a completely fabulous list from accross the globe please visit -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

PLEASE LET US NOT SAY INDIA DOESN'T HAVE MONEY for the facilities mentioned in the above 7 points. With the profits major indian companies are making now and the explosive growth in business heading to India I think we can buy Honkong, Seoul & Changi airports cash down in.

Some statistics -

1) Mumbai airport handled a total of 12,764,959 passengers with terminals 1A,1B,2A & 2C at it's disposal in 2003(April)-2004(March) and was

still struggling to cope with the passenger flow.(http://dgca.nic.in/pub/pub03-04/chap5/5-05.pdf). Considering that, the current BIAL

terminal designed at devanahalli
is inadequate.

2) Bangalore is going to see huge traffic growth
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=57693dd2-d9a5-4a47-8452-

e70d4bab02a3&&Headline=Bangalore+air+traffic+to+go+sky-high+soon

http://in.rediff.com/money/2008/mar/06airport.htm

http://www.livemint.com/2008/02/10231513/Grounded-at-the-word-go.html

Hyd_Nipper

April 21st, 2008, 10:40 AM

Yesterday's airport built today?

Excellent post...and I totally agree with you.

zenith_suv

April 21st, 2008, 10:45 AM

perhaps closing down of HAL would be a disaster given the inadequacies of the BIAL as you ave mentioned very accurately above , I belong to Delhi , however upon recent visits to HAL I noticed that it s in fairly good condition and keeping it open would add to Bangalore's ever growing needs , perhaps the profit sharing clause can be reworked between Govt. of India and BIAL to compensate them for any losses the might suffer in the shot run i.e. 5-10 years.

ullasavadan

April 21st, 2008, 10:53 AM

Yesterday's airport built today?

I agree that the airport is overdue. But still we cannot say this airport is outdated simply because of its delay.

Vertical seperation is only an option and not mandatory. There are many airports in the world, some of them leading, which do not have vertical seperation for arrival and departure but still are considered one of the good airports in the world.

Moreover, the airport is designed by developers who have huge experience and has been approved by many departments and then only the construction has been done. So we should not jump into conclusions just by looking at it as none of us have required competence to evaluate the design. Also whatever we say, airport design cannot be changed now.

Anyhow airport opening is round the corner and lets see how effectively it operates and then comment. I think till that time we should wait and watch.

raghussc

April 21st, 2008, 03:38 PM

yeah yeah, i'd like to know examples of those ".... some of them leading, which do not have vertical seperation for arrival and departure but still are considered one of the good airports in the world" ... considering the advantages of vertical separation, it shud be made mandatory for the upcoming airports, shouldnt be left as an option.

Anyways, we'll know in less than a month how the new airport will be able to handle crossing-pedestrian-traffic and the pickup/dropoff/taxi lanes all along the terminal.

If they come up with a huge huge terminal in phase 2 capable of handling big numbers satisfying those 7 points, maybe this phase 1 terminal could be used just for international pax or could be remodeled for air cargo :)

bialterminal

April 22nd, 2008, 03:32 AM

I agree that the airport is overdue. But still we cannot say this airport is outdated simply because of its delay.

Vertical seperation is only an option and not mandatory. There are many airports in the world, some of them leading, which do not have vertical seperation for arrival and departure but still are considered one of the good airports in the world.

Moreover, the airport is designed by developers who have huge experience and has been approved by many departments and then only the construction has been done. So we should not jump into conclusions just by looking at it as none of us have required competence to evaluate the design. Also whatever we say, airport design cannot be changed now.

Anyhow airport opening is round the corner and lets see how effectively it operates and then comment. I think till that time we should wait and watch.
Thanks for you constructive input. Please note that I am not complaining about the delay. I will be more than happpy if they take 1 more year but provide an airport comparable to Beijing,Hong Kong,Seoul,Changi,Bangkok,Dubai & other airports in terms of accessibility & functionality & passenger handling capability. :-).

I am sure you are a well travelled person who is speaking from your experiences as a traveller.

My post was based on my experiences travelling through the various airports below -

Dual Level :-
SEA(Seattle),SFO(San Francisco),LAX(Los Angeles),SNA(Orange County - John Wayne airport), BOM(Mumbai Intl. terminal 2), DEL(Intl terminal 2), ICN(Seoul Incheon), HKG(Hong Kong - Chep lap kok),BKK (the old airport), JFK(at least the terminal I flew out of), AMS(Amsterdam), BWI(Baltimore), ORD(Chicago).

Not Sure; Either single-level OR a mix of dual level&single level:-
ATL(Atlanta)-from what I have experienced arrivals and departures at same level. But, website claims it has a lower level with only AA (American Airlines) having baggage at the lower level. I have never been there.

Single Level:-
Medium/Small :OAK(Oakland;bay area;single level with at grade pedestrian crossing at traffic lights;GUARANTEED to miss your flight if you don't plan well even though this airport handles less traffic than LAX or SFO);SJC(San Jose);LIT(Little Rock-pleasant quite airport; single level sufficient)
Major/Large: DFW(Dallas; but note that this airport is huge 18076 acres; having all the space to spread out)
SAN(San diego - have been there twice to pickup/drop off someone. It was a nightmare).
IAH(Houston Intercontinental;only transited through terminal E and peeked out, seemed single level)
MAA(Chennai; the airport from which I made the 1st international trip :-),BLR did not have itnl. flights then).

Of all these I like LAX the least. It is an absolute nightmare with multiple traffic lights, weaving traffic & pedestrian crossings. I really hope BIAL doesn't turn out like this in the long run. :-) Unfortunately I will have to go through LAX(my current home airport) this May on my next trip. I am eagerly waiting to fly out of the new BIAL on 19th May. I will get a chance to visit LHR which I have never visited and give more inputs for improving BIAL. Moreover flying into HAL and flying out of BIAL will be more exciting to see the improvement in Bangalore infrastructure.

Please take a look at Bangkok's finished airport that was thrown open recently (i haven't been there) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Suvarnabhummi.jpg .Looks absolutely fabulous and this seems to be a no-brainer to me.

jammy97

April 22nd, 2008, 08:35 AM

Please take a look at Bangkok's finished airport that was thrown open recently (i haven't been there) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Suvarnabhummi.jpg .Looks absolutely fabulous and this seems to be a no-brainer to me.

I have been there in Jan this year, and the airport is just a steel/concrete junk!! I was impressed with the ATC though. Even the exterior of the airport looked good, but totally lacking any colour and a good flow pattern inside.

Let me assure you, that the interiors of BIA are much more impressive. From my visit there two weeks ago, I feel that it can handle the flow better than Bangkok.

heavenlyabode

April 22nd, 2008, 10:38 AM

barrykul

April 22nd, 2008, 07:24 PM

The New Suvarnabhumi airport in BKK is truly large and I found it pretty good overall. Though I would have preferred a more thai touch in interior decor instead of ugly bare concrete finish and steel and glass. The King's picture and posters are all over the place and revered. Overall a large airport with decent facilities. You have to walk a lot from one terminal to another especially if the flights are from different carriers. The food courts are concentrated on the 1st floor, though there is very little thai food stalls, mostly coffee shops, chinese food, burger king etc. Found the cleaning crew had an integrated sweep, mop and air dry machine which operated silently. Thai Airways is great. All in all a pleasant, well functioning airport.

As far as BIAL, let us await the opening. From its current size and basic design, there is much more work to be done to get into the leagues of a Singapore, Hong Kong or Thailand BKK.

Prakash KR

April 22nd, 2008, 08:15 PM

Dear Mr Prakash.

And i also had said "this is not the time to go back on agreements and such arguments should have been made before entering into the agreement". How does that go against the "courts"-

3) When i emphasise that agreements should be respected- i am respecting the sanctity of agreements as per the Indian constitution.

At the time of signing agreement, it seems that future air traffic projections at Bangalore was grossly under estimated, proper connectivity to BIAL from city was poorly planned & executed and UDF not mentioned.

Modifying an agreement for the sake of public interest at large need not be considered with "ego" as going back. Public should not be penalised for lack of foresights in the agreement. Any inconvenience caused to public needs to be minimized. I think the court has only simply pointed out above facts due to several PILs filed against closure of HAL airport.

Karnataka high court is the highest authority/court in Karnataka to interpret laws and agreements. Hence, such a remark from the high court should be considered with due respect to Indian constitution. I feel any court in India, be it high court or supreme court, will give importance to public interest if Government is one party to agreement.

More from report below.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Karnataka HC directs Centre to re-negotiate Bangalore airport deal
Infrastructure Bureau
Posted online: Thursday , April 17, 2008 at 2214 hrs IST

Bangalore, Apr 16 It seems the silicon capital of India may have two airports with the Karnataka High Court directing the Centre, Karnataka government and Airports Authority of India (AAI) to renegotiate the concession agreement with Bangalore International Airport Ltd (BIAL) “in the larger public interest”.

In a 13-page directive on Wednesday, the high court said the three respondents should immediately re-negotiate with BIAL on keeping open the HAL airport and also not levy any user development fees (UDF) from the passengers at the new international airport.

As per the concession agreement, no new or existing airport both international and domestic (except for Mysore and Hassan airports) shall be permitted by the Centre to be developed, improved or upgraded within an aerial distance of 150 km of the Bengaluru International Airport. Currently, BIAL has proposed UDF of Rs 240-plus taxes and Rs 520-plus taxes for domestic and international passengers, respectively.

However, the high court said both the governments and AAI should re-negotiate the two issues with BIAL and explore the possibility of “minimising, if not completely removing, the inconvenience and difficulties of the people”.

Please refer to the below link for full details:
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Karnataka-HC-directs-Centre-to-renegotiate-Bangalore-airport-deal/297692/

bialterminal

April 23rd, 2008, 01:29 AM

Let's say Kingfisher makes BIAL it's hub . Can it start international hub operations from day one (or at least within 6 months of opening date) when it get it's long haul aircraft? What international transfer facilities have been provided? I know BIAL has not been designed to be a hub but I think it is high time India caught up in this. We are a country of 1 billion people attracting global business. Also, I believe that where there is room for 3 there is always room for 4 (and where there are 4 there is room for 5 and so on..). From an international hub operations perspective these would be necessary to compete and get business away from SIN/BKK/DXB.

-professional,punctual & reliable airline (Jet Airways,KingFisher perhaps? count out Air Inda)

-reasonably good weather year round on an average. Bangalore seems to fit the category. Count Delhi out due to winter fog & probably Mumbai during heavy monsoon.

- good airport that can handle arrival banks and departure banks of aircrafts in a short period of time efficiently which requires -

a) adequate aerobridges (inadequate in BIAL and a big question mark for at least next 4 years)

b) efficient ground handling - fueling & catering (I don't know enough to comment); efficient & reliable baggage transfer (depends on systems present in BIAL;anybody from Praja can throw some light on this?)

c) a good cosmopolitan passenger friendly terminal with concourses for passengers to wait with facilities for eating,shower etc.(I am sure BIAL is capable of this but I haven't seen a concourse concept so have doubts about space availability)

d) a good "transit passengers" flow system where they exit the aircraft, pass through security(without going through immigration, this securit will be separate and only for transit passengers) and then they move on to their gate for their connecting international flight.

- A good choice of routes covering various destinations; which I am sure can be built up once the above infrastructres are in place.

-And of course, misc requirements like if a business passenger is transiting through BLR on a SYDNEY-LONDON route and wants to finish some business.(I know some facilities are coming up but timeframe and no details are available to the public or a potential transit passenger).

And most importantly a clean and corruption free airport matters.!! :-)

jammy97

April 23rd, 2008, 09:02 AM

Let's say Kingfisher makes BIAL it's hub . Can it start international hub operations from day one (or at least within 6 months of opening date) when it get it's A380s and other long haul aircraft? What international transfer facilities have been provided? I know BIAL has not been designed to be a hub but I think it is high time India caught up in this. We are a country of 1 billion people attracting global business. Also, I believe that where there is room for 3 there is always room for 4 (and where there are 4 there is room for 5 and so on..) ..i am referring to the number of hubs around us DXB,SIN,HKG,ICN,BKK. From an international hub operations perspective to get business these would be necessary -

-professional,punctual & reliable airline (Jet Airways,KingFisher perhaps? count out Air Inda)

-reasonably good weather year round on an average. Bangalore seems to fit the category. Count Delhi out due to winter fog & probably Mumbai during heavy monsoon.

- good airport that can handle arrival banks and departure banks of aircrafts in a short period of time efficiently which requires -

a) adequate aerobridges (inadequate in BIAL and a big question mark for at least next 4 years)

b) efficient ground handling - fueling & catering (I don't know enough to comment); efficient & reliable baggage transfer (depends on systems present in BIAL;anybody from Praja can throw some light on this?)

c) a good cosmopolitan passenger friendly terminal with concourses for passengers to wait with facilities for eating,shower etc.(I am sure BIAL is capable of this but I haven't seen a concourse concept so have doubts about space availability)

d) a good "transit passengers" flow system where they exit the aircraft, pass through security(without going through immigration, this securit will be separate and only for transit passengers) and then they move on to their gate for their connecting international flight.

- A good choice of routes covering various destinations; which I am sure can be built up once the above infrastructres are in place.

-And of course, misc requirements like if a business passenger is transiting through BLR on a SYDNEY-LONDON route and wants to finish some business.(I know some facilities are coming up but timeframe and no details are available to the public or a potential transit passenger).

And most importantly a clean and corruption free airport matters.!! :-)

bialterminal,

We (PrajaBangalore) asked the BIAL guys about the A380 issue. KF is set to get its first A380 only in 2010-2011. Until then, there is very litte chance that any other airline will land its A380 here. As of now only Singapore is operating A380 between SYD-SIN. By that time, BIAL should be having its new terminal and runway (provided they get all due clearances)

There has been provision for international to domestic transfers etc but could not get to see the space allocation for it. As far as we know they dont need to clear immigration again.

BIAL is counting on SIEMENS' info systems and SITA's latest technology baggage handling to have smooth operations. There is going to be direct-to-plane fuel system, with probably choice of oil companies.

There are already good choice of routes on offer. KF is starting with BLR-NY, BLR-SFO, and BLR-London. AI is also starting BLR-SFO. Other airlines are increasing capacities. There are also a few LCC's starting operations like Tiger, DragonAir etc.

Cov Boy

April 23rd, 2008, 02:30 PM

It would be best if the old Airport could be kept open as it makes sense since the poor planning of the new airport and gross under estimatation of passenger numbers.

The State Gov. should bbe held liable for the lack of planning of connectivity for the new airport.

raghussc

April 23rd, 2008, 04:54 PM

The State Gov. should bbe held liable for the lack of planning of connectivity for the new airport.

so how shud the state govt be punished now ?!? what's the remedy for the liability ?!? The planners should have been made liable for selecting airport land soo far from the city and that too in the vicinity of an airbase yelahanka. Any suggestions on how to penalize the state govt ?

Lack of connectivity ?!? NH passes pretty close by the airport and all that the state govt or the builder had to do is lay roads connecting from the terminal to the National Highway. The only mistake state govt did all along was in settling issues with NHAI over the trumpet interchange, shame on it. Anyways, the builder of BIAL came to the rescue and took up the project.

Ppl want to spend 3000 crores to build dedicated rail line for the benefit of few air passengers but there are still hundreds of villages without proper roads. This is not a commie statement but state govt has/had priorities over putting up new connectivity to new airport.

India does not have soo much of FDI/money to invest in mega infrastructures like China can, but then India doesn't suppress common people like China does too !

Stop bothering abt lack of connectivity until the state govt comes up with a mega plan similar to PVNR Expressway in Hyd. Let BIAl start operations and close the HAL airport, and then determine if it's taking too long a commute to the airport from various parts of the city. If the traffic delays result in decrease of air-pax growth, then it's good for BIAL in a way as it's only designed for 12 mpy only.

killerk

April 23rd, 2008, 06:26 PM

Let's say Kingfisher makes BIAL it's hub . Can it start international hub operations from day one (or at least within 6 months of opening date) when it get it's A380s and other long haul aircraft? What international transfer facilities have been provided? I know BIAL has not been designed to be a hub but I think it is high time India caught up in this. We are a country of 1 billion people attracting global business. Also, I believe that where there is room for 3 there is always room for 4 (and where there are 4 there is room for 5 and so on..). From an international hub operations perspective these would be necessary to compete and get business away from SIN/BKK/DXB.

-professional,punctual & reliable airline (Jet Airways,KingFisher perhaps? count out Air Inda)

-reasonably good weather year round on an average. Bangalore seems to fit the category. Count Delhi out due to winter fog & probably Mumbai during heavy monsoon.

- good airport that can handle arrival banks and departure banks of aircrafts in a short period of time efficiently which requires -

a) adequate aerobridges (inadequate in BIAL and a big question mark for at least next 4 years)

b) efficient ground handling - fueling & catering (I don't know enough to comment); efficient & reliable baggage transfer (depends on systems present in BIAL;anybody from Praja can throw some light on this?)

c) a good cosmopolitan passenger friendly terminal with concourses for passengers to wait with facilities for eating,shower etc.(I am sure BIAL is capable of this but I haven't seen a concourse concept so have doubts about space availability)

d) a good "transit passengers" flow system where they exit the aircraft, pass through security(without going through immigration, this securit will be separate and only for transit passengers) and then they move on to their gate for their connecting international flight.

- A good choice of routes covering various destinations; which I am sure can be built up once the above infrastructres are in place.

-And of course, misc requirements like if a business passenger is transiting through BLR on a SYDNEY-LONDON route and wants to finish some business.(I know some facilities are coming up but timeframe and no details are available to the public or a potential transit passenger).

And most importantly a clean and corruption free airport matters.!! :-)

It is literally impossible for Bangalore to overtake Dubai and Singapore. They have highly organized economies mostly due to their rigid political system and the money (not from oil, Dubai has no more oil) from investments. We have a big economy, no doubts but it is'nt organized, a limitation that big countries (area and population wise) face. Besides the airlines there are state run profit making entities that have both the Government support and the money to expand easily and target new markets. In India "state run" and "profit-making" are two different theories.
They have also mastered the hub spoke concept in transportation and logistics, something that India is still at its infancy. China is doing better at this than India, but is still nowhere close to Dubai and Singapore.
Glad to know that the current government specifically the aviation ministry is taking the right decisions (I am a neutral observer, no favoritism or prejudice to any political party or country/city here) but then again no airport, new or old in India is big or glamorous enough (sadly this matters a lot) to become a world hub.

bialterminal

April 24th, 2008, 02:57 AM

Hi jammy97

We (PrajaBangalore) asked the BIAL guys about the A380 issue. KF is set to get its first A380 only in 2010-2011. Until then, there is very litte chance that any other airline will land its A380 here. As of now only Singapore is operating A380 between SYD-SIN. By that time, BIAL should be having its new terminal and runway (provided they get all due clearances)

Thanks for clarifying the A380 aspect; and ,yes I am aware of the 2010-2011 delivery timeframe. But I also mentioned "other long haul aircraft". It is not too hard to get long hauls on lease on short notice.

There has been provision for international to domestic transfers etc but could not get to see the space allocation for it. As far as we know they dont need to clear immigration again.

BIAL is counting on SIEMENS' info systems and SITA's latest technology baggage handling to have smooth operations. There is going to be direct-to-plane fuel system, with probably choice of oil companies.

There are already good choice of routes on offer. KF is starting with BLR-NY, BLR-SFO, and BLR-London. AI is also starting BLR-SFO. Other airlines are increasing capacities. There are also a few LCC's starting operations like Tiger, DragonAir etc.
By international hub operations and international transfers I was referring to international-to-international tranfers/transit. As in SIN-BLR-LHR/FRA/CDG or SYD-BLR-LHR/FRA/CDG or KUL-BLR-LHR/FRA/CDG etc.

The reason I am discussing this in this forum is to find out if we have adequate infrastructure to handle this (on May 2nd 2008 or within a year of May 2nd 2008) after crores of rupees have been spent on "world class" spanking new infrastructure OR are we going to be in the same catchup mode due to inadequate infrastructure as the usual story is ? (either it is a lack of planes or it is a lack of infrastructure). Thankfully lack of planes has not been an issue recently due to many private indian carriers coming up that can compete globally. But scalable infrastructure is the question given the lessons learnt. Nobody expects an endlessly scalable infrastructure but we need at least something decent and big enough to compete.

- http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/04/25/stories/2006042520460100.htm (perfect example of lack of infrastructure)
- http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/27/business/airindia.php
(perfect example of a lack of planes)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bangalore: Managing Director of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) A.K. Saxena said here on Monday that airlines had been informed that the airport could not handle any more flights.

"We have reached a saturation stage and our own test flights are getting hampered. We are already operating at more than twice our capacity and are over stretched," Mr. Saxena said.

Regional Director of Airport Authority of India (AAI) A. Krishnamurthy said the ongoing airport improvement work was scheduled to be completed by April 30 and the installation of additional conveyor belts for baggage handling was also being completed. "We are constantly trying to upgrade facilities for travellers," he said.

HAL and AAI recently worked out a Rs. 50-crore project to improve the airport infrastructure and modernise the Air Traffic Control (ATC).

The terminal expansion is scheduled to be completed by the month-end and will have up to 20 check-in counters for passengers.

In terms of passenger traffic, the airport has emerged as the third busiest in the country, but the facilities have not kept in pace.

With only one runway, the airport continues to feel the pinch. The huge increase in the number of flights by different airlines, State-owned and private carriers, means there is one landing or take-off every two minutes during peak time. The airport currently manages about 260 to 300 take-offs and landings of aircraft on most days, including civilian, IAF and HAL's own aircraft.

Only the Mumbai airport with 550 to 600 take-offs and landings and New Delhi with 450 to 500 are busier than Bangalore.

About six million passengers use the HAL airport in a year. The airport was originally designed to handle only about 3.6 million passengers a year.

jammy97

April 24th, 2008, 08:57 AM

Illusionist

April 24th, 2008, 09:17 AM

thanks for the pics...
i just checked the site few hours ago and it was still not updated...
looks like SSIns are keeping an eye on that on hourly basis... ;)

bialterminal

April 24th, 2008, 09:29 AM

I have been there in Jan this year, and the airport is just a steel/concrete junk!! I was impressed with the ATC though. Even the exterior of the airport looked good, but totally lacking any colour and a good flow pattern inside.

Let me assure you, that the interiors of BIA are much more impressive. From my visit there two weeks ago, I feel that it can handle the flow better than Bangkok.

I am really not looking to see which airport is going to win the beauty contest and I want to stay out of that game :-). But, your statement of terming a 3.9 billion $ (http://www.suvarnabhumi.eu/) airport "just a steel/concrete junk!! " made me do some homework; eventhough I have never been there :-) this is one fabulous airport and seems functional overall in terms of getting there; handling large volumes of traffic; international-to-international hub connectivity&facilities. I know that the old Bangkok airport was looking drab compared to Suvarnabhumi or BIAL but was much superior and functional to any indian airport in 2000/2001. You must be kidding if you are calling all of this junk :-

1) Interiors of Suvarnabhumi
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1342402&size=L&width=1024&height=695&sok=&photo_nr=
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1315750&size=L&width=1024&height=723&sok=&photo_nr=
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1281702&size=L&width=1024&height=780&sok=&photo_nr=

2) This photo of Suvarnabhumi bangkok airport below was taken during construction. From what I can see it is fully functional with railway connectivity; multi storey car park with direct access to terminal; provision for grade separated traffic. The only thing I would add for BIAL is a multi-storey public transport center between the car parks having bus, rail, shuttle & taxi provision.
I have marked out a green box what needs to have been provided in phase 1
for BIAL. Notice the passenger concourses. This helps greatly because main
terminal building can handle passenger processing like checkin,security,arrivals etc & concourses can handle passenger waiting areas, lounges, boarding areas. In fact, the main passenger terminal building itself can have aerobridges like BIAL currently does for short haul flights where passengers can quickly walk in and board.This seems to me to be a highly scalable airport and I have marked in a green box what BIAL needs to have in the 1st phase for operation with a single runway.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7307/suvarnabhumiue6.th.jpg (http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=suvarnabhumiue6.jpg)

Compared to this, BIAL looks like a final year architecture student's college project.

Silicon_Valley

April 24th, 2008, 02:07 PM

I am really not looking to see which airport is going to win the beauty contest and I want to stay out of that game :-).

I liked that comment :lol:

Compared to this, BIAL looks like a final year architecture student's college project

But what you say above seems rhetoric to me considering that the airport is not even functional yet and I feel some people are going overboard to prove the airport is jinxed.:bash:

Cov Boy

April 24th, 2008, 02:13 PM

It is just excellent that India will get another airport of international modern day standards. Hyderabad is awesome and set a standard and BIAL looks just as good than the imcompetence of AAI.

I dont wanna get into any arguments of beauty and asthetics!!! Just enjoy what has been built as it was darn better than what existed before.

Next Mumbai & Delhi will shine soon & so will Chennai & Kolkata.

jammy97

April 24th, 2008, 02:45 PM

I am really not looking to see which airport is going to win the beauty contest and I want to stay out of that game :-). But, your statement of terming a 3.9 billion $ (http://www.suvarnabhumi.eu/) airport "just a steel/concrete junk!! " made me do some homework; eventhough I have never been there :-) this is one fabulous airport and seems functional overall in terms of getting there; handling large volumes of traffic; international-to-international hub connectivity&facilities. I know that the old Bangkok airport was looking drab compared to Suvarnabhumi or BIAL but was much superior and functional to any indian airport in 2000/2001. You must be kidding if you are calling all of this junk :-

2) This photo of Suvarnabhumi bangkok airport below was taken during construction. From what I can see it is fully functional with railway connectivity; multi storey car park with direct access to terminal; provision for grade separated traffic. The only thing I would add for BIAL is a multi-storey public transport center between the car parks having bus, rail, shuttle & taxi provision.
I have marked out a green box what needs to have been provided in phase 1
for BIAL. Notice the passenger concourses. This helps greatly because main
terminal building can handle passenger processing like checkin,security,arrivals etc & concourses can handle passenger waiting areas, lounges, boarding areas. In fact, the main passenger terminal building itself can have aerobridges like BIAL currently does for short haul flights where passengers can quickly walk in and board.This seems to me to be a highly scalable airport and I have marked in a green box what BIAL needs to have in the 1st phase for operation with a single runway.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7307/suvarnabhumiue6.th.jpg (http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=suvarnabhumiue6.jpg)

Compared to this, BIAL looks like a final year architecture student's college project.

Well, beauty contest or not, people still want good looks in an airport. Then why even bother having interior decorations in any airport!! :lol: Arent you seeing the 'good' interiors (apart from transfers/mullti level car park) and then classifying it as 'fabulous airport'!!

Just try getting from one gate to another in suvarnabhumi!! it takes ages. You have 3 or 4 immigration counters for probably 10-15 flights, all located at one end. There was a huge amount of rush and chaos (i wish i had taken the snaps there). The huge flight display information had everything in Thai. There were hardly any signboards and the people at the counters were very unfriendly. There was one information center for the entire stretch (handling close to 20-25 flights)!

But, the airport is huge. It does have good connectivity. I dont know why people complain about BIAL about connectivity. Just coming out with the same rhetoric is not helping. BIAL has done its bit. There will be pressure on the upcoming governments to ensure better connectivity.

Also, its early to make a judgement as to how the BIA will handle the traffic. Let it start functioning. Let me assure you that the building looks much bigger than what one would imagine by seeing the pics. Also, I have noticed that the arrival/departure dropoff is much longer than the length of the terminal itself. So, hopefully that should work fine.

jammy97

April 24th, 2008, 04:35 PM

Jet Airways India entered into a framework agreement with Bangalore International Airport (BIAL) with regards to sub-leasing land at the new Bangalore International Airport to construct a base maintenance and engineering facility.

Source: MYIris - 24th Apr'08 (http://www.myiris.com/newsCentre/newsPopup.php?fileR=20080424182248166&dir=2008/04/24&secID=livenews)

CapeComorin

April 25th, 2008, 03:37 AM

It's been a while since anyone's posted a set of new pics. BIAL's website has only 9 new pics - some a bit odd. Can we look forward to anyone posting new pics soon? I was really thrilled by all the pics posted after the Praja trip!

zenith_suv

April 25th, 2008, 08:27 AM

Just saw news that the Cabinet has given the green light to a policy change which allows more than one operational airport in a city which paves the way for the existing HAL to give competition to the new and upcoming BIAL .

although as of this moment I'm not aware of the implications of this or what action BIAL manufacturers can take but I will update if I can find anything new.

Nelaturi

April 25th, 2008, 10:23 AM

Looks like more delays will haunt BIAL, guys..Wonder what the AAI guys have been doing for so long?:bash::ohno:
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Apr252008/city2008042564590.asp

Even as a Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) team began its three-day inspection of the Bengaluru International Airport here on Thursday, the May 11 commercial launch of the operations has come under a cloud.

Aviation sources revealed the various Air Traffic Control equipment were still far from operation stage.

BIA requires the green signal from this team for its commercial launch. The DGCA team is scheduled to check the airport's preparedness on 59 parameters. The team will check the preparedness of the Airports Authority of India (AAI) on Communication Navigation Surveillance-Air Traffic Management and other facilities related to Air Traffic Control (ATC) at the Airport.

The Assembly elections was cited as one of the reasons for a possible postponement of the commercial launch date of the new airport. During its earlier visit to the BIA in March, the DGCA was not satisfied with the ATC and a few other facilities. However, it had given its approval in most of the 59 parameters.

It may be recalled the airport's earlier launch date of March 30 was postponed due to incomplete ATC facility and lack of training for the Airports Authority of India (AAI) personnel manning the facility.

world1

April 25th, 2008, 11:08 AM

WTF.....!!!??? these peple r crazz....wat r they doing..???idiots i feel like KILLING the POLITICIANS...OR whoever is responsible for this ...........

Cov Boy

April 25th, 2008, 12:29 PM

LOL!

rkramesh

April 25th, 2008, 02:53 PM

Updated photos and press clippings on BIAL website (http://www.bialairport.com/project_pictures.htm?cid=topmenu&ses=bial)(April '08)

BIAL-arrival/departure drop off:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3151/2438435804_9bf0484bbc_o.jpg

Hmmm Glass Canopies - BIAL's facade is turning a rosy hue as D day approaches which I hope is still 11th May THIS year...

BIAL cant afford to keep losing money on an almost fully ready facility not yet put to the intended use...

Pics fromBIAL website (http://www.bialairport.com/project_pictures.htm?cid=topmenu&ses=bial)
Interiors paint a prettier picture now...

BIAL Camera Guy is also getting more prof - love this angle
http://www.bialairport.com/img/pictures/apr08_4.jpg

Bright and Cheerful bars add that joie de vivre to an understated businesslike BIAL ambience
http://www.bialairport.com/img/pictures/apr08_7.jpg
http://www.bialairport.com/img/pictures/apr08_6.jpg
http://www.bialairport.com/img/pictures/apr08_5.jpg

Old world, understated and classy, with modern highlights - this lounge-
Wonder if this is the Jet Airways lounge or AI - doesnt seem like the KF Waiting lounge...
Love those Classic dining chairs and the Jalli work on the windows, but some the boxy sofas look a bit too old world - lending a 70s art deco look in parts - a touch of panache could do no harm surely
http://www.bialairport.com/img/pictures/apr08_8.jpg

Well stuff to look forward to at BIAL
- Like the cool blue in this aerobridge - a bright entrance to the aircraft during daytime given the glass walls - hope the next set of aerobridges have glass walls even for the retractable part that abutts the aircraft as in HIAL - the flooring looks suitably rubberised with little serrations for added grip... nice...
http://www.bialairport.com/img/pictures/apr08_2.jpg

stillwater

April 26th, 2008, 05:27 AM

^^ One word - WoW !!

Just saw news that the Cabinet has given the green light to a policy change which allows more than one operational airport in a city which paves the way for the existing HAL to give competition to the new and upcoming BIAL .

So does that mean that the earlier rule of no airport within 150km radius is nullified? If so the airport Mayawati intends on building in Noida does not have this hurdle anymore.. and by default it becomes a breach of contract with GMR regarding the Delhi Airport?

or am i getting this all wrong?

:?

carlcox

April 26th, 2008, 06:24 AM

Amazing pics of the interiors. The finish is jus amazing.
Interiors look much better than the HIAL. BIAL has got that exclusive look to it. Good goin BIAL.:cheers:

qwertyasd

April 26th, 2008, 06:35 AM

no. the news is that barring current contractual agreements, all other places will allow airport within 150 km provided safety requirements are met.

zenith_suv

April 26th, 2008, 09:28 AM

so mayawati is still prohibited from building a new Airport in Greater Noida , thank god for that (an infrastucture project with UP govt. :bash:) phew !!!.

Coming to the Bangalore airport , whatever little I've seen of it gives the impression that it's truly world class airport with connectivity being the only thorn in the flesh , I hope they sort it out soon.

2 World class airports for India very soon . We are finally waking up.

bialterminal

April 26th, 2008, 11:44 AM

jammy97,
Well, beauty contest or not, people still want good looks in an airport. Then why even bother having interior decorations in any airport!! :lol: Arent you seeing the 'good' interiors (apart from transfers/mullti level car park) and then classifying it as 'fabulous airport'!!
.
Nope, 'fabulous airport' not by just the looks. I went by the overall functional airport. Like i have said before in the forum I (personally) like BIALs interiors; but I do not want to go get into the game of which airport looks better :-). Nor have I said anything about the looks not being important. This is a subjective aspect as kannadigas might feel the need for a Karnataka touch; Indians and others might feel the need for a broader touch in decor; cosmopolitan decor etc.(i have read various opinions on the decor and to the extent of the building looking like a factory but haven't commented on it). Can you please take a guess -
1) which airport (current or proposed)this photo belongs to?
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4149/photo1ww3.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo1ww3.jpg)
2) and which photo (current or proposed) this one belongs to?
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8626/photo2ek2.th.jpg (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo2ek2.jpg)

Just try getting from one gate to another in suvarnabhumi!! it takes ages. You have 3 or 4 immigration counters for probably 10-15 flights, all located at one end. There was a huge amount of rush and chaos (i wish i had taken the snaps there). The huge flight display information had everything in Thai. There were hardly any signboards and the people at the counters were very unfriendly. There was one information center for the entire stretch (handling close to 20-25 flights)!

But, the airport is huge. It does have good connectivity. I dont know why people complain about BIAL about connectivity. Just coming out with the same rhetoric is not helping. BIAL has done its bit. There will be pressure on the upcoming governments to ensure better connectivity.

Also, its early to make a judgement as to how the BIA will handle the traffic. Let it start functioning. Let me assure you that the building looks much bigger than what one would imagine by seeing the pics. Also, I have noticed that the arrival/departure dropoff is much longer than the length of the terminal itself. So, hopefully that should work fine.

:-) And, I was referring to suvarnabhumi just as an example since you initially referred to it as a piece of junk. They handle passengers equal to if not more than the combined capacity of Mumbai and Delhi airports. The aerial shot I showed there is a common way of developing "world class" airport infrastructure as in PEK, HKG, BKK, SIN, CDG etc. Granted each airport has it's own problems. Problems like for example - walking distances; terminal road traffic nightmare (LAX) etc. It is up to us whether we want to improve and avoid their mistakes or take solace in the fact that "look even they have problems". Passenger walking distances are typically longer in finger pier terminal concepts (AMS, ORD, LAS, SLC, HOU, SEA, STL & CVG to name a few among the airports I have visited and I agree with you about the pain :-) but this is alleviated typically through moving walkways and other means). You will love SEA (Seattle) airport though. And hey, here is a piece of steel&concrete junk - http://www.operations.mod.uk/fingal/fimages/apod.jpg
And yes, here i am going by the looks. A plane cannot obviously fly out of there anywhere.

Here is a road traffic traffic flow map for BIAL. I am not hung up on trying to prove a point here and most people will wonder why the arrival departure traffic is not segregated. Moreover, where is the planning? When the other terminals come up how is the traffic going to flow? It will be T1(departure) then T1 arrival then T2 departure then T2 arrival ..similarly past T3 and out. :nuts: We certainly can't go all the way down and make a left turn to go to the extreme left end of the future T2 which would be the departure end going by the current layout of T1.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/4669/bialtrafficflowsu8.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bialtrafficflowsu8.jpg)
I do not have the appropriate software but I have given a rough picture of how the traffic flow can be improved. If you think of a better solution i request you to share it for the benefit of other forum contributors
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/2760/trafficflowproposedsk4.th.jpg (http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trafficflowproposedsk4.jpg)

I guess our overall joint goal is the improvement of BIAL for the 3rd busiest airport in India and the most economically important city (after Mumbai) in the 21st century. Here are some questions I had posted in praja bangalore and you can have a look at them -
http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/2008/04/bial-discussions-ii#comment-3460

rkramesh

April 26th, 2008, 08:48 PM

Hello Bialterminal - nice to see you on board - appreciate your sensible and equipoised observations and constructive suggestions.

The first interior pic is certainly the New Singapore Changi T3, dunno about the second one. Infact the actual T3 looks even better than this rendering - especially yht flooring and the green glass used in the real mc coy is similar in colour to BIAL interiors...Good suggestions apropos the traffic stream flow for departing and arriving passengers. But looks like the current plan - (Pic you attached was a it small - made reading some text difficult) - forces pedestrian/ passengers with carts of luggage to cross the path of vehicles driving into the terminal fore court...not at all a good idea.

Your suggestions of dividing the two traffic streams seem more streamline - hope the BIAL honchos take note of this stituation...Earlier reports in this discussion thread suggest that the BIAL folk are actually keeping abrest of this thread and even reacting to constructive feedback here...So we need to keep this good work going - will turn out into a win win stituation for all in the longer run - better facilities, customer satisfaction and smoother commencement and maintenance of operations...

mailabode

April 27th, 2008, 12:20 AM

Hi BIAL Terminal:
Saw both the pics- one presented by BIAL(i assume) and the other the same with flow modified by you.
Givens: There is not going to be separate levels for arrival (pick up) and departure (drop off) areas in this phase of BIAL construction.

So when we have such a vertical separation of A & D in the future we can certainly think about separation of those respective segments for the distance they separate and rejoin (separation of two adjacent lanes into 1)a road going to ground level(arrivals) and 2)a bridge to the upper level(departures) - and then they are back to two separate side by side lanes) - mainly to separate the departure and arrival entities and avoid overcrowding at entrance of terminal building (inside and outside). Remember - in this separation of levels scenario we artificially create more pickup/dropoff area in an originally smaller pickup/dropoff area. But in our BIAL scenario - basic fact is we dont have this extra artificially created area.

WRT traffic 'Cars come and cars go' is the bottom line irrespective of arrival or departure. The time for 'unloading luggage plus disembark car' or for 'loading luggage plus embark car' is roughly the same. Cars that just need to drop off can enter airport, go to 'drop offs' and then leave airport immediately. Cars that want to pickup but need to wait sometime first will enter airport and go directly into P2. Cars that want to sendoff someone will first 'drop off' and then go to P3 and so on depending on what people want to do- eventually this whole system will become streamlined when people get used to the system and follow some self imposed mutually understood rules.

The main point i want to make is 'why should we separate the two traffics' - after all physically it is 'a car comes in and then goes out'- and only if we watch closely do we know if it is a car for arrivals or a car for departures. Isn't it better for the not too dissimilar arrival and departure cars to share more space than to share less space overall, and thus avoid 'any reduction in space utility which leads to more traffic at certain points' ?.

I certainly agree separation would be good - but only if we have more area than depicted(real area or by virtue of an additional level upstairs) - but when area is going to be the same i feel non-separation is better. It appears there is a sufficiently large, well planned and streamlined pick up and drop off area, and i expect well designed traffic control overall.
And importantly i think this car park is temporary and there will be a proper multi-level parking facility in the not so distant future- and so maybe it would be uneconomical to construct an interchange for it would be temporary.
Regards.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Walkways will be either non-elevated or elevated to the level of an ordinary side walk(pavement). There will be ramps wherever necessary and at the entrance(as is the norm in other similar systems - eg: Luton) - however BIAL space is much bigger and traffic flow is different and efficient than Luton, hence the traffic situations of the 2 aren't comparable.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

jammy97,

Nope, 'fabulous airport' not by just the looks. I went by the overall functional airport. Like i have said before in the forum I (personally) like BIALs interiors; but I do not want to go get into the game of which airport looks better :-). Nor have I said anything about the looks not being important. ......................................
......................................................
......................................................
I guess our overall joint goal is the improvement of BIAL for the 3rd busiest airport in India and the most economically important city (after Mumbai) in the 21st century. Here are some questions I had posted in praja bangalore and you can have a look at them -
http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/2008/04/bial-discussions-ii#comment-3460

Euromast

April 27th, 2008, 10:43 AM

New Bangalore airport take off likely to be delayed (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/New_Bangalore_airport_take_off_likely_to_be_delayed/articleshow/2987544.cms)

NEW DELHI: The flight operations from the new airport in Bangalore are expected to be further delayed as contentious issues like user development fee are yet to be resolved, an aviation official said.

The stakeholders of the Rs 2500 crore - the ministry of civil aviation, the Airports Authority of India (AAI), the Karnataka government and the Bangalore International Airport Ltd (BIAL) - will meet here Tuesday following a Karnataka high court order.

The court asked them to re-look and re-negotiate the concessions agreement signed between the airport developer, BIAL, and the government.

world1

April 27th, 2008, 01:50 PM

THIS IS HORRIBLE.........will the airport ever open.......!!!! y r the people DUMB wen the airport was being constructed....only now im hearing people talking abt the distance...!!!! wat were the people doing wen they heard tht airport was 35 to 40 kms away from airport???? y did they SHUT their mouth at that time??? i dont care wat people tell..... ME!!IM just IRRITATED!!!!!

mailabode

April 27th, 2008, 02:59 PM

If the court or the government insists that there is no other go but to renogotiate the agreement - does this mean 1) the agreement was illegal?, 2) If it was illegal why did the government allow the project to be started in the first place and why it did nothing until it got completed?, and 3) if it was legal then does it mean any agreement signed in the future can later be dishonoured by the government, DGCA or by anyone else?.

In an interview to CNBC - a foreign enterpreneur settled in China when asked for his comments about doing business in India - said its too difficult to do business in India. Mercedes, BMW, Nokia etc and several others first came to India but (due to the govt's indifference, slothfulness, lack of dedication and bureaucracy) ran away to China, and are now happily manufacturing in China while many of us bicker that these companies are out to plunder India(right now they are creating wealth for ordinary Chinese people). Nokia recently (in 2007 end or so) while the Government was sitting for ever on its application to set up factory in India- got fed up and told the Government "Thanks, but we are going to China because Business is 'urgent' and cant wait for such unusually long periods".
How many care that Bangalore has already lost a lot of business to Thailand and other East Asian countries because it did not have a proper airport and infrastructure- business that would have created wealth for the ordinary man.

We might have got used to the socialist brand in the past but with time we need to learn to change. Making mountains of mole hills and causing indeterminate economic losses than that mole hill actually warrants is ridiculous. People are earning much more nowdays. Nothing comes free- the AAI was used to getting government help for many many years- but in the real world money has to come from somewhere(you cant just keep borrowing and subsidizing)- using past experiences as benchmarks (wrt the user development fee)where money was borrowed to complete projects and then the loans waived(for public sector organizations) is not how businesses should run. The profits need to cover the expenses and new terminals developed. We the tax payers paid and pay a lot of money as salaries to public sector employees for their substandard work, we pay lots and lots of money on many many PW projects by government agencies which are never completed properly but whose budgets/allocations more than doubled nevertheless, we pay lots and lots of money as taxes that goes into the pockets of corrupt ministers and govt officials and corrupt private contractors whom we dont fight against at all- for we consider them normal. We pay prohibitive sums to purchase a specific brand of drug/medicine from medical stores when actually the generic drug of same composition costs much much less, which we avoid buying due to lack of trust - the pharma companies falsely claim their drug is superior than the generic(but privately say they charge more for Development and R&D),.,.,..... many more such things. When we quietly pay all that without question why do we argue so much against only this - because its become too popular due to the newspapers' coverage that we've become too obsessed with this?. It simpy does not add up- we need to be more objective.

This is the central govt's way of responding to the BJP statement on the airport. While politicians claim to be saying/doing what they are 'because they care for us' - ironically at the same time they are taking us for a ride till elections are over.

THIS IS HORRIBLE.........will the airport ever open.......!!!! y r the people DUMB wen the airport was being constructed....only now im hearing people talking abt the distance...!!!! wat were the people doing wen they heard tht airport was 35 to 40 kms away from airport???? y did they SHUT their mouth at that time??? i dont care wat people tell..... ME!!IM just IRRITATED!!!!!

Prakash KR

April 27th, 2008, 06:43 PM

Nothing comes free- the AAI was used to getting government help for many many years- but in the real world money has to come from somewhere(you cant just keep borrowing and subsidizing)- using past experiences as benchmarks (wrt the user development fee)where money was borrowed to complete projects and then the loans waived(for public sector organizations) is not how businesses should run. The profits need to cover the expenses and new terminals developed.

For your information, other private airports in India are not charging UDF. Why do you want only BIAL to charge UDF? There are many ways for private airports to earn money like leasing land for maintenance base (recently BIAL signed agreement with Jet), commercial shops in the terminal for lease and other non aviation related earnings in addition to aviation related.

UDF speeds up recovery of amount invested into the airport at additional cost to passengers and may be justified if passenger traffic growth were lower. But passenger traffic at Bangalore is growing much more than what BIAL estimated. Hence, there seems absolutely no need to charge UDF. BIAL by all chance can breakeven much before they estimated due to the explosive growth in passenger traffic at Bangalore.

saurabh85

April 27th, 2008, 07:49 PM

bialterminal

April 27th, 2008, 08:34 PM

^^ Its ridiculous that people are cribbing about paying the UDF. As far As i know the UDF is only for international passengers. I cant believe people who pay thousands of dollars for air tickets are not ready to pay even 25 dollars!!:bash:

That is not true since international passengers (cannot speak for all) but at least me and all the folks whom I know are willing to spend 50$ to 100$ more to even fly directly into the current HAL airport than have a transfer through the Mumbai/Delhi/chennai. If at all somebody is concerned about UDF it may (please note that I am not saying this is the case) be short haul passengers travelling with a ticket price of perhaps like let's say rs. 5000 for whom rs. Similarly somebody buying a 100$ ticket will raise and eyebrow when asked for a 80$ UDF no matter where.

But, I really think this is more of a political issue where the UDF has been blown out of proportions and made political to suit vested interests. I have recently bought a ticket from Bangalore to Mangalore and was shocked to see that the ticket was Rs. 500 but the fuel surcharges,fees & taxes were around Rs 4600. Why not fix the price of the ticket at 4000 or 4500 Rs and the rest as taxes? I have not bought a product so far where the taxes and fees exceed the value of the product by more than 10 times as in this case. The point I am trying to make is, since no prominent lawyer or politician has raised a hugama over this then why over the UDF? I smell a rat in this.

mailabode

April 27th, 2008, 09:16 PM

We are all entitled to our opinions Mr Prakash- but lets look at airports around the world. Zurich Airport collected a huge tax to cover its investment and its now one of the best airports in the world. Similarly many airports have done it. Its been in practice internationally and approved by the IATA.

If one wanted to question BIAL(during the design phase or during early construction) about why they did not have vertical separation or a bigger terminal etc etc for this modern airport it would have been perfectly acceptable. You could have discussed, got things sorted, even have got them to implement reasonable views in a mutually acceptable fashion and then moved on . But scuttling the project now and dishonouring legal agreements doesnt bode well for the future, and i am sure people who do this dont care if the resulting untrustworthiness drives away droves other potential investors and kills the possibility of providing jobs to 100s of thousands of people.
About the point of raising matters at appropriate times(before starting project)- its already been explained. The post was a whole- parts dont mean a thing by themselves unless they also include their context that's readily available in the post itself- besides it was self explanatory and your apprehensions were covered already if you'd read the whole thing and digested.

I dont know what to say when one says other private airports in India dont charge UDFs!!. Comparing private airports like Cochin etc to BIAL (wrt your point) is like comparing apples and oranges - because the concept and facilities are different. Comparing BIAL and HIAL to each other makes sense. The word 'perspective' has a lot of meaning.

I dont think anybody here would know how much it costs to carry out new phases of the project because they dont have any idea about actual costs - and so saying 'its not necessary' does not really hold water(only an audit would reveal something and that too only about completed parts of the project- and anyways such constant interference with how a private company runs its day to day affairs is called Bureaucracy- just like the Govt likes to interfere in the day to day functioning of the IIMs and IITs- and anyways this is not how healthy business works- there are accepted and proven standards for successful monitoring which are far different from illogical and constant ad-hoc interference. Bureaucracy has destroyed our economy and country). For example if creation of a tunnel and an underground train system(of some kind) or other modern innovative facilities are necessary for future phases i am pretty sure you(or anyone here including me) would not know at this minute what the costs will be for such a facility- so it makes no sense in people blindly scuttling the project without proper figures, facts, or proper reason, and importantly without even knowing what new modern facilities can be had in future phases. This is just like people opposing the fee hike by IIMs without even knowing what the expenses to run the IIM properly would be(of course its possible to run the IIM like a rudimentary college and even reduce their fees). What's happenning is simply bureaucratic hurdles by people without concrete reason.

If collecting that extra charge is necessary- then it must be collected- PERIOD.

For your information, other private airports in India are not charging UDF. Why do you want only BIAL to charge UDF? There are many ways for private airports to earn money like leasing land for maintenance base (recently BIAL signed agreement with Jet), commercial shops in the terminal for lease and other non aviation related earnings in addition to aviation related.

UDF speeds up recovery of amount invested into the airport at additional cost to passengers and may be justified if passenger traffic growth were lower. But passenger traffic at Bangalore is growing much more than what BIAL estimated. Hence, there seems absolutely no need to charge UDF. BIAL by all chance can breakeven much before they estimated due to the explosive growth in passenger traffic at Bangalore.

sammyk

April 27th, 2008, 09:23 PM

But, I really think this is more of a political issue where the UDF has been blown out of proportions and made political to suit vested interests. I have recently bought a ticket from Bangalore to Mangalore and was shocked to see that the ticket was Rs. 500 but the fuel surcharges,fees & taxes were around Rs 4600. Why not fix the price of the ticket at 4000 or 4500 Rs and the rest as taxes? I have not bought a product so far where the taxes and fees exceed the value of the product by more than 10 times as in this case. The point I am trying to make is, since no prominent lawyer or politician has raised a hugama over this then why over the UDF? I smell a rat in this.

They separate the charges to show how it's not necessarily them charging them.

Kind of like "See, we only charge Rs 500, but the airport charges this much, the government taxes this much, and because fuel is so high there is another charge, etc." plus, and most importantly, they can advertise the fare as "Rs 500*" to lure you in and get away with it.

mohan123

April 27th, 2008, 10:05 PM

U negotiate a contract before it is signed by the parties.

If Indian government continue to behave the way they are behaving no multinational companies will come to India.

All these people who are talking about the airport today do not know

that money used to build the BIAL was from the International capital Pool.

The banks in india hire the gundas to collect money from the defaulters like Mafia.

When it comes to other Nations money they want to negotiate after borrowing the money & building the Airport.

Where were all these Idiots when the agreement was signed .

Karnataka High court wants to get Involved at this time for what.

BIAL has not even made a DIME yet .
If u do not want to pay UDF trave by a cart.
If u want to use the Highways.....pay for using the road.

This is not your Govt money.

Indians want free stuff.....all the time in their life.
Look at our government run hospitals & Private run hospitals.

Everyday hundreds of people die with simple completely treatable diseases.

Indian government can not provide Free & efficient services to all Citizens.
They signed a contract with International organizations to build this Airport.
Now Praful Patel acts like a King & treats BIAL as ihis slaves.

Pay all the money they have invested in Bial with all the Penalties & interest.

Provide free Services to Indian citizens.

We lost a great opportunity when Nehru was the PM in 1950 s.

Hong Kong , South KOREA & all of S E asia Grabbed it & are happy about it.
INTEL waited for a while & said good bye......went to Vietnam last year.

Wake up INDIA.
Wake up the inefficient Indian administration.
There are lots of nations who want to grab the opportunities.

Many companies wont sign any contracts with you India.
Since u do not honor the contracts!!!!!!!!!!

HIRE a good Lawyer with good vision to read & analyze the contract BEFORE U SIGN THE CONTRACT.

That is how the CAPITALISM works.

U want to eat the CAKE & SAVE IT.

All the best in your future contracts.

Do NOT ALLOW this AIRPORT at all !!!!!!!!!

Use the current TRAIN STATION @ HAL for ever.

Mohan 123:bash:

barrykul

April 28th, 2008, 01:03 AM

We keep going back to the same freaking arguments. HAL airport belongs to the Ministry of Defence, usurped by the Ministry of Civil Aviation. The airport was upgraded to take commercial air traffic. It is but a glorified cow shed airport. HAL airport should be used by HAL for testing out aircrafts and the IAF to house squadrons of Kick Ass Su-30 MKI, LCA, Helos.

BIAL should insist on HAL being shut down for commercial ops. BIAL is not that far away considering that most airports elsewhere are 20-30 miles away. Now, everyone and his uncle wants HAL airport. Knataka High court can have its opinions about HAL airport, being used to doling out stupid stay orders (which needs to be abolished from the Indian Judicial System, only enriches fat cat lawyers and makes the judges super lazy since they don't analyse deep root causes). Charging a reasonable user fee is the norm everywhere. Domestic flights should be less and international much more. George Bush's TSA slaps a $200-300 security charge on international flights and no-one seems to complain very loudly about such steep charges.

Make BIAL the hub for world class air travel.

zenith_suv

April 28th, 2008, 06:38 AM

The govt. must honoe contracts , it was a Govt. mistake to shut down the HAL for VIAL which is a massive 40 Km away but that cannot hope to rectify this error at the cost of those who have put in their money to construct BIAL .

BIAL should open and HAL would shut down (even if it is at the cost of the convenience).

As I see it , this 150Km. clause is a mistake by the Govt. which should not be done in the future , however Hyd. and B'Lore will have to learn to live with it from now on.

Airports like Delhi and Mumbai should not have such a problem as Delhi would be large enough in due time and Navi Mumbai airport is beyond the planning stage

mpvp

April 28th, 2008, 06:59 AM

BIAL should insist on HAL being shut down for commercial ops. BIAL is not that far away considering that most airports elsewhere are 20-30 miles away. Now, everyone and his uncle wants HAL airport. Knataka High court can have its opinions about HAL airport, being used to doling out stupid stay orders (which needs to be abolished from the Indian Judicial System, only enriches fat cat lawyers and makes the judges super lazy since they don't analyse deep root causes). Charging a reasonable user fee is the norm everywhere. Domestic flights should be less and international much more. George Bush's TSA slaps a $200-300 security charge on international flights and no-one seems to complain very loudly about such steep charges.

Please remember HAL airport doesnot charge UDF and has terminals as good as any other domestic airport in India. You want to close HAL airport and then open BIAL charging UDF. For whom? It is like somebody closing down public drinking water taps that is available free and providing you back with bottled water at a price. Indian public is not a rich as in the west to afford these kind of costly gimmicks. Only a few Indians can afford the luxuries like UDF. You are talking about an airport in Bangalore serving the public at large.

Please watch your tongue before you speak against the Indian courts. If the judgement of High court instead favoured BIAL, Iam sure you would be singing a different tune now!! BIAL and multinationals are here in India because of the strong judiciary to protect the rights of individual and organisations. BIAL promoters know it very well before they decided to invest in India.

Bottomline is, at this point of time,that public seems against sacrificing HAL airport for BIAL but prefer the latter as an additional airport to handle higher capacities. The recent policy of Central government scrapping the 150km radius restriction for new airports is a pointer to this direction. And Karnataka high court has also endorsed similar views just recently.

Finally the scoreboard is as below:

- Central Government has approved new policy for two or more airports in any Indian city in future. It is shameful and unfortunate that BIAL to which our so called netas and babus fell heads down for the so called "sacred concession agreement" (it is now known how some netas/babus overnight turned into millionaires from the land dealings around Devanahalli) is nothing but a gross selfish deal for the netas/babus and inconveniencing public at large. No other future airports will be closed down in India for the sake of a few greedy private operators.

-Karnataka High court has already remarked against closure of HAL airport at the right time due to various public inconveniences caused. Public has overall welcomed this high court judgement whereas obviously BIAL and its beneficiaries are still sulking.

- Public is overwhelmingly in favour of retaining HAL airport in addition to BIAL. Many recent surveys point out this fact.

- BIAL has still not convinced public on how it is going to handle the exploding passenger growth in Bangalore with its limited infrastructure. More importantly it has not also announced its financial status but stubbornly keeping on insisting for UDF.

barrykul

April 28th, 2008, 07:58 AM

It is like somebody closing down public drinking water taps that is available free and providing you back with bottled water at a price.

Hogwash. There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for. Currently, defence aircraft are hampered because of commercial operations at HAL. HAL belongs to the Central Govt. not to Karnataka. The public currently gets a mosquito infested air terminal with lousy parking and no amenities at HAL.

Indian public is not a rich as in the west to afford these kind of costly gimmicks. Only a few Indians can afford the luxuries like UDF. You are talking about an airport in Bangalore serving the public at large.

Typical communist crap. Who are these folks who travel by Air, poor farmers belonging to your "public at large". Gosh, get a grip on what utter nonsense you seem to be spouting from an orifice. Yeah right, folks who travel by Air cannot afford another $10 (Rs 400), ordinary people spend such amounts on breakfast at the corner Udipi dosa store.

Please watch your tongue before you speak against the Indian courts.

Oooh I am shivering from judge mpvp (must be some connection to a MP?). :ohno: Indian courts are not sacrosanct buddy. I have respect for the law not the corrupt interpretation of it. There are lots of corrupt judges and lawyers infesting Indian courts including Karnataka's. BTW, the Indian judicial system needs reformation from the old British codified laws including stay orders which are the most stupid nonsense loophole created. This single thing, costs oodles of time and money to the Indian economy.

Oh and what happened to the sanctity of contracts, a pillar of judicial thought and strict enforcement worldwide.

heavenlyabode

April 28th, 2008, 08:22 AM

Oooh I am shivering from judge mpvp (must be some connection to a MP?). :ohno: Indian courts are not sacrosanct buddy. I have respect for the law not the corrupt interpretation of it. There are lots of corrupt judges and lawyers infesting Indian courts including Karnataka's. BTW, the Indian judicial system needs reformation from the old British codified laws including stay orders which are the most stupid nonsense loophole created. This single thing, costs oodles of time and money to the Indian economy.

Oh and what happened to the sanctity of contracts, a pillar of judicial thought and strict enforcement worldwide.

I neither have respect for the courts nor for the law. Everyone knows it and feels the same. It is just that we live in an eternal hope that things will click with the existing system. Just the recent episode that RTI is anot applicable to courts fiasco clearly shows that courts are afterall corrupt like anything else in India. Otherwise why do you want to hide something from people.

Prakash KR

April 28th, 2008, 09:13 AM

But scuttling the project by dishonouring legal agreements doesnt bode well for the future.

The agreement was modified once before, isnt it? I didnot hear anybody saying "scuttling". So why this unnecessary hue and cry over modifying the agreement again for public interest? Who is to blame for the poor passenger projection estimates by BIAL? Why should passengers suffer due to BIAL infrastructure not able to handle the growing traffic? Or will you say that passengers have to bear the brunt of capacity constraints at BIAL in future like what they are going through at HAL airport?

If collecting that extra charge is necessary- then it must be collected- PERIOD.

Why is BIAL not transparent in disclosing its financials? Is not it fair to fix UDF after that? Till BIAL discloses its financials to public and necessity of UDF established, no fee or whatsoever by BIAL should be charged. PERIOD.

mailabode

April 28th, 2008, 10:06 AM

ullasavadan

April 28th, 2008, 12:10 PM

The agreement was modified once before, isnt it? I didnot hear anybody saying "scuttling". So why this unnecessary hue and cry over modifying the agreement again for public interest? Who is to blame for the poor passenger projection estimates by BIAL? Why should passengers suffer due to BIAL infrastructure not able to handle the growing traffic? Or will you say that passengers have to bear the brunt of capacity constraints at BIAL in future like what they are going through at HAL airport?

Why is BIAL not transparent in disclosing its financials? Is not it fair to fix UDF after that? Till BIAL discloses its financials to public and necessity of UDF established, no fee or whatsoever by BIAL should be charged. PERIOD.

Well.. The arm twisting tactics of Govt. & people (by filing PILs) is like providing a new set of rules for driving just before you are appearing for a driving test to get license. You might pass or fail, that is debatable. But it is definitely not fair.

Yes, the agreement was once modified and that is for various reasons. Also, that was modified not at the 11th hour but after a lot of deliberations. Now the situation is different. You have the airport which is ready but not allowed to operate. They have invested huge sums but are forced to accure loss to the tune of 40 crores per month without a valid reason. All these are not fair games and would definitely hurt the impression of people towrds Inida in general and Bangalore / Karnataka in particular.

NICE has made headlines for all wrong reasons thereby hurting its utilisation and now BIAL is getting into the same route.

At the end of the day, loser is Brand Bangalore and Bangaloreans.

mpvp

April 28th, 2008, 12:32 PM

Hogwash. There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for. Currently, defence aircraft are hampered because of commercial operations at HAL. HAL belongs to the Central Govt. not to Karnataka. The public currently gets a mosquito infested air terminal with lousy parking and no amenities at HAL.

When somebody is willing to give free lunch, why do you want to disturb it? India is still a democratic socialistic country where Government subsidised hospitals, railways, buses etc. operate. In addition, private sector also operates its own hospitals, buses etc. India always had the culture of co-existence of public and private sectors unlike in many countries of west.
Hence, there is no reason I see to close a government run airport for the sake of private airport. Let both the airports co-exist.

mailabode

April 28th, 2008, 04:21 PM

When somebody is willing to give free lunch, why do you want to disturb it? India is still a democratic socialistic country where Government subsidised hospitals, railways, buses etc. operate. In addition, private sector also operates its own hospitals, buses etc. India always had the culture of co-existence of public and private sectors unlike in many countries of west.Hence, there is no reason I see to close a government run airport for the sake of private airport. Let both the airports co-exist.

First of all i dont believe what you advocate is just socialism - its more a brand of communism.

The west is not all capitalistic as you generalize. Countries like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Germany, France, Canada and a few more are a socialist/capitalist mix in different proportions. To a small extent even the UK is socialist(eg: the NHS - which even so called(by you)socialist India does not have). In the USA the Democrats are centrists and sometimes even tilt to the left.

You speak as if in India a communist/private-ownership mix has been prevailant for 1000s of years and as if it is in our scriptures- thats simply untrue. State ownership was introduced by Indira Gandhi for very selfish reasons not so long ago and it's destroyed our country economically and socially and the overall system helped increase corruption manyfold - a system where the poor get poorer everyday - 83 % of India earned a dollar a day and many among them even less as of Januray 2007.

If someone is willing to pay for a free lunch?. Did you even bother to read what he wrote- his post i thought was self explanatory. Who else but the tax paying public do you think pays for anything - if there is a benevolent philanthrophist whom only you know why not reveal details to us?. And how did you know the tax payer is willing to simply pay for a useless system where his money is wasted including doling out free lunches - you conducted a willingness poll/survey ?.

It's of course become usual in India for some people who dont know or care where money comes from, and who dont care about the sweat and blood and pain that went into making that money - to decide how that money should be spent but without any responsibility whatsoever for taking our country forward(as if it was their own money) - this is white collar plunder. I am sure Indians are willing and happy to allow a reasonable part of their taxes to be spent to uplift the downtrodden and poor to a minimum standard of living - for educating them, and enabling them to get jobs, but not to keep giving them free lunches and thus rendering them poor forever. Give someone a fish and he will ask for a fish again the next day(subsidy for the sake of subsidy)- teach him to fish and he will support himself for a lifetime(socialist/capitalist mix). But i dont think Indians are willing for their taxes to be used for subsidizing public sector industries,.,.,subsidizing the air fare of passengers, ....... and subsidize almost everything as is being done now - there are more important and urgent things to do with govt revenue like improving public infrastructure and evolving a workable system to systematically eradicate poverty, creating an effective health care system, an effective education system where no one is deprived, creating a workable pension system, creating an efficient government that generates jobs etc - so why not try and earn the extra money to pay for a 'paid-lunch' in the time you fight 'for the free-lunch' or 'for abolishing the required user development fee'.

Its not the Government's job to run industries(its job is to govern efficiently by not getting distracted into running industry) - 'Government runs industries' is not advocated even in communism and was not advocated by even the frightful Lenin- it came into being because of selfish people like Stalin,.,.,. and in India by Indira Gandhi just to consolidate personal power and the idea was born out of paranoia.
Only people who are interested in the success of a business or industrial enterprise can run it well. What interest do the bickering politicking ministers or the selfish bureaucrats have in running the enterprise well than earning their salaries with minimum or no effort- how do such 'potentially low productivity industries (by concept iself)' help our nation?. This system that corrupts needs to be thrown out once and for all.

raghussc

April 28th, 2008, 05:07 PM

Excellent post mailabode ... ur words should calm once-n-for-all all those naysayers who want UDF to be abolished ...

know what the best to silent all those mouths shouting for scrapping UDF or for not closing the HAL ?!? Yes, u guessed it right, BIAL should start operations immediately or ASAP ... without any more delays ... Look at HIAL, no one is making any noises against Int'l pax paying the UDF ...

Prakash KR

April 28th, 2008, 05:07 PM

Well.. The arm twisting tactics of Govt. & people (by filing PILs) is like providing....

You call it arm twist and common man like me see PILs as last resort to move the Government for help. People badly need HAL airport for low cost travel as they found out lately from BIAL shifting positions from time to time and they think exclusive operation by BIAL is harmful to their interests.

Yes, the agreement was once modified and that is for various reasons. Also, that was modified not at the 11th hour but after a lot of deliberations. Now the situation is different. You have the airport which is ready but not allowed to operate. They have invested huge sums but are forced to accure loss to the tune of 40 crores per month without a valid reason. All these are not fair games and would definitely hurt the impression of people towrds Inida in general and Bangalore / Karnataka in particular.

It is at the 11th hour that people came to know that UDF will be charged and BIAL infrastructure may not be able to handle future growth due to the exploding passenger traffic happening now in Bangalore and that BIAL had completely underestimated the future passenger traffic growth. If the agreement is going to cause inconvenience to public, Isnot BIAL responsible for the same? BIAL has failed to convince public that its infrastructure can efficiently handle the higher than estimated current and future passenger traffic in years to come. Under these circumstances, the agreement should be reviewed as the court has directed and HAL airport allowed to continue operations.

Nobody is objecting to opening of BIAL. Everyone knows it was the ATC problems which delayed the first inaugauration on March and now the new date May 11th hopefully doesnot get delayed further due to state election code of conduct. Iam all for opening BIAL at the earliest so that public enjoy the benefits of new airport as well as BIAL starts getting revenue.

The issue here is "concession agreement" wherein specifically the justification for closure of HAL airport and imposition of UDF is questioned by people like me. Please donot try to divert the issue from "Retention of HAL airport" to "Scuttling of BIAL". Such an attitude is neither going to help you or me or Bangaloreans in general.

i sincerely wish tomorrow's meeting of MoCA with AAI, BIAL and Karnataka Government yields positive results as the court has desired and end the unnecessary dispute forever.

ullasavadan

April 28th, 2008, 05:48 PM

You call it arm twist and common man like me see PILs as last resort to move the Government for help. People badly need HAL airport for low cost travel as they found out lately from BIAL shifting positions from time to time and they think exclusive operation by BIAL is harmful to their interests.

I am not against PIL. I agree that it is people's last resort for justice. But I am against PIL at this time. If they had put it 1 year ago, then no qualms about it. But at this hour, whoever files it, it is plain arm twisting.

It is at the 11th hour that people came to know that UDF will be charged and BIAL infrastructure may not be able to handle future growth due to the exploding passenger traffic happening now in Bangalore and that BIAL had completely underestimated the future passenger traffic growth. If the agreement is going to cause inconvenience to public, Isnot BIAL responsible for the same? BIAL has failed to convince public that its infrastructure can efficiently handle the higher than estimated current and future passenger traffic in years to come. Under these circumstances, the agreement should be reviewed as the court has directed and HAL airport allowed to continue operations.

If people read the news so late, then should we say they were sleeping? Everybody knew that HAL Airport would be closed, but PILs are coming up now. Everybody knew that the roads are not being readied for smooth reaching airport, but PILs are coming now. What I can say is along with the Govt., even people were just thinking that BIAL would not be able to meet the deadline. They didnot follow-up the progress properly and suddenly with 3 months to go for airport opening, they realised that airport preparation is on time but not the related road infrastructure. BIAL should not be penalised for that.........

Moreover, silence doesnot mean BIAL accepts whatever rubbish is being told about it. So many people said that the airport is bad in its design and BIAL kept mum about it. But, as we see from the updates from people who visited, everybody is acknowledging that it is a good airport. So silence cannot be the measure of truth. I know people would react saying if you do not defend, it means u accept the fact. But thats not always true. Some people just wish to keep to themselves and let their work talk.

Lets wait for the airport to open and see whether it can handle the traffic or not.

raghussc

April 28th, 2008, 06:11 PM

Prakash KR

April 28th, 2008, 06:14 PM

I am not against PIL. I agree that it is people's last resort for justice. But I am against PIL at this time. If they had put it 1 year ago, then no qualms about it. But at this hour, whoever files it, it is plain arm twisting.

If people read the news so late, then should we say they were sleeping? Everybody knew that HAL Airport would be closed, but PILs are coming up now.

Wait, wait, wait...When did BIAL start releasing information about its progress of construction related to terminals, structures, and runway? RGIA at Hyderabad released its information months back itself whereas BIAL failed miserably in its PR. BIAL was not at all transparent in divulging its details to public till 1 or 2 months back. People came to know details of BIAL and began understanding the full picture only recently, dude...

BIAL also fully knew months back itself that passsenger traffic had crossed the limit way further it had set earlier and still kept mum all throughout without taking any constructive action to tackle the problem.

Public understood BIAL limitations at such a late stage and had to file PILs so late. And as the old saying goes " Better late than never"....

Prakash KR

April 28th, 2008, 06:29 PM

I don't think concession agreements can be reviewed based on future estimations/predictions of traffic growth alone ! Those estimates can change either way and depends on soo many factors that are even out of scope of BIAL! That's not at all a point to start arguing on the CA. If and when BIAL "FAILS" to accomodate passengers in future because of "EXPLOSIVE GROWTH" of b'lore, then the CA can be reviewed at that time. Until then, BIAL will not be liable or responsible. Was AAI held responsible even though BOM and DEL airports handle much more traffic than they are designed ?!? No right ? So when they can't make someone liable for "present" problems, who is going to make one responsible/punishable for "future" expected problems ???

Mind you, BIAL engaged its own agency to estimate future traffic in Bangalore and ended up in catastrophe ( gross underestimation of traffic). Hence BIAL cannot blame anyone else but itself and its agency for the poor estimation job done. The end situation is that at peak times of a day when most people want to fly through BIAL there maynot be slots available for new flights as it is already hinted by BIAL. Now please tell me why passengers should be forced to fly non-peak times from BIAL due to non-availability of slots at BIAL in peak times of day? Who will take responsibility for this situation?

Reviewing CA at a later point of time makes no sense because there may be no alternative airport by then ( HAL airport might have then converted to shopping mall) and BIAL may be dictating terms unilaterally.

And please dont bring in Mumbai and Delhi as they are the only airports in those cities. People in these cities badly yearn for second airport. Whereas Bangalore has been gifted with two airports (any city will envy this position of Bangalore) and there is this explosive growth in passenger traffic happening now. What else is needed to further establish the point that two airports is the way to go for Bangalore.

mailabode

April 28th, 2008, 06:29 PM

mpvp

April 28th, 2008, 06:50 PM

First of all i dont believe what you advocate is just socialism - its more a brand of communism.

If someone is willing to pay for a free lunch?. Did you even bother to read what he wrote- his post i thought was self explanatory. Who else but the tax paying public do you think pays for anything - if there is a benevolent philanthrophist whom only you know why not reveal details to us?. And how did you know the tax payer is willing to simply pay for a useless system where his money is wasted including doling out free lunches - you conducted a poll/survey?.

Hello Mr. , looks like you are not living in India. You can go ask your questions to the Government who is spending the tax money. But the fact is that Government provides subsidy in many areas. In India Railways is the major mode of transport for passenger traffic and fares are heavily subsidised to minimize the fluctuating costs of imported diesel oil. Government hospitals are run throughout the country whereby treatments are provided at dirt cheap subsidised prices. Government provides food through rationing system at subsidised prices . State governments like Andhra pradesh provides rice at Rs 2 per Kg with heavy subsidy. This is what is India now and not what you think. In aviation, Indian airlines - state owned airline, flies to all centres across the country, even loss making routes.

What I meant to say is that an airport is meant for public usage and hence public interest will be topmost priority when decisions are made. Capitalism or socialism or communism or fascism or any..ism comes only next.

raghussc

April 28th, 2008, 07:20 PM

^^^

Just because it's being done now doesn't mean that we should be doing it forever. Well, if something is working right by doing it in certain way, then we don't have a problem with it. But if the current way of doing things is causing problems, then we ought to change it.

Govt better spend the tax money where it benefits more number of people like in education and healthcare (which are any nation govt's responsibilities) but not in airports which serve not even 1% of country's population.

Subsidies don't work in any society, it's only making the poor people poorer in India. No UDF is causing existing airports to fail to provide even basic amenities and making them depend on govt funds for expansion or continued operations.

bialterminal

April 28th, 2008, 07:42 PM

Guys, let's step back and think. By haggling/arguing over the UDF, keeping HAL open or not etc. aren't we getting distracted from one major aspect where the goverment has failed and keeps failing in the road/rail infrastructure area for which we are literally pouring taxes (without any results)? Very promptly a public interest litigation (please correct me if this is not the correct terminology) was filed to examine the option of keeping HAL airport open. Where is the public interest litigation for the government's failure to provide the necessary road and rail infrastructure between the major transportation hubs in the city? Does anybody in this forum know the process for a public interest litigation and if we could do something about this? Before we challenge the UDF and question the transparency of BIAL I think we need to question the government about it's transparency of how much money it gets from tax revenues and how much it has spent or intends to spend on road/rail infrastructure. The govenment should also be challenged on the lack of good road/rail infrastructure to BIAL in particular and between major city transportation hubs in general.

barrykul

April 28th, 2008, 07:50 PM

ravibg

April 28th, 2008, 08:22 PM

zenith_suv

April 28th, 2008, 08:50 PM

Oh, what a spectrum from railways, diesel, rice, medicine and now aviation. Is there any sense in such subsidies, just because the public demands it. I can't believe such is the caliber of thinking. Public can demand things like free beer, drugs, no taxes, rioting, etc. Does it mean a thing. Public Interests does not translate to priorities. It is time that the pampered public in India is made to pay their fair share, instead of expecting govt. doles. Subsidies are meant to target low income folks not the middle class and wealthy. Certainly air travel is a luxury. Having a subsidy in this sector is a joke. IA/AI are leech like org. and the sooner the govt gets away from subsidizing the leeches the better for India.

Are those morons at AAI done with their so-called testing and training charade, time to open BIAL ASAP.

I don't know weather you live in India or not but calling the Indian public pampered is almost laughable , have you ever been in a crammed DTC bus to Nagafgarh or traveled in a 2nd AC to Jharkhand , I would bet my right eye that you have't , the public Suffers and suffers day in day out .

Air travel is a Luxury you say , maybe , perhaps - but take out of the equation the LCC data and then see the level of growth in passenger travel index . A UDF for of Rs. 1000 is significant for a passenger who pays only Rs. 2500 for a ticket .

I don't know if BIAL will be able to handle traffic beyond 5 years but I certainly hope so , there is only really one way to find out and that is to throw it open to the public.

ullasavadan

April 28th, 2008, 08:57 PM

Wait, wait, wait...When did BIAL start releasing information about its progress of construction related to terminals, structures, and runway? RGIA at Hyderabad released its information months back itself whereas BIAL failed miserably in its PR. BIAL was not at all transparent in divulging its details to public till 1 or 2 months back. People came to know details of BIAL and began understanding the full picture only recently, dude...

BIAL also fully knew months back itself that passsenger traffic had crossed the limit way further it had set earlier and still kept mum all throughout without taking any constructive action to tackle the problem.

Public understood BIAL limitations at such a late stage and had to file PILs so late. And as the old saying goes " Better late than never"....

Well, now its certain that people have now woken up. Till this time they were in deep slumber.
1. BIAL was providing its update of progress of work every month and I myself have seen this and has been a keen follower.
2. They had posted the master plan and details on their website from a very long time (may be from beginning but I am not very sure about that)
3. Thay have allowed people to visit and interact with them at all stages of construction.

So its not correct to say they have not shared the information. As I said in my earlier post, some people wish their work to do the talking and BIAL also seems to believe the same. Nobody should blame them for that.

mailabode

April 28th, 2008, 09:01 PM

Why are people assuming that the airport doesn't support the expected number of passengers? It is much bigger than HAL and will easily support the existing number of passengers and more for the next few years.

What confidence will BIAL have in investing for next phase when the government itself is putting hurdles and blackmailing them to modify existing agreement by withholding permission for opening the airport?

None of the issues raised are new. The contract signed 5 years ago between the government and BIAL/HIAL explicitly granted them rights to collect UDF and that no airport will operate within 150 km radius. Connectivity isn't a recent issue and is not the concern of HIAL/BIAL. The state government should have worked on that right from the day BIAL started construction. Why was the civil aviation ministry so silent on connectivity issues for over four years? Why didn't they prod the state govt to do something on it?

The agreement wasn't signed in secret, the capacity isn't suspect and the airport itself meets all guidelines. Let the government not try to armtwist the private developers. Let the airport begin operating and if few years down the road if BIAL capacity becomes a bottleneck, the issue of reopening HAL airport can be looked at. It is not like HAL airport will go into disuse. HAL and IAF will continue to use it.

In my opinion: If we had an Ambani or some other Native Indian (with political clout and who can be friendly with all major political parties) in the consortium then arm twisting wouldnt have been as much as BIAL experienced in the past- and i feel there could be more underlying secrets that wont come out because politicians cant be antagonized and so the brunt has to be quietly borne by BIAL. But anyway all they can do now is make amends in the future whatever the inexplicable reasons for not having done better so far(i am sure they are more than capable though). WRT dealing with politicians to further their own business interests there are very smart people in the west like Rupert Murdoch but even they would not want a full blown investment in India(all by themselves) at the moment because of the fact they fact they arent natives and my opinion is this hinders their ability for political leverage(as of now)- and thats apart from normal red tape. I am sure a lot of companies will learn from BIAL's experiences.

The postponement is just to pretend to act tough and gain political mileage for the Assembly elections. The rhetoric can get louder with each passing day until elections and then fall off steeply. Since it was the court verdict that gave a chance for the Centre to react with (affected) hostility to BIAL - it makes one suspect politics to have been behind the not so straightforward rhetorical language of the non-binding court verdict (and corruption in courts is an open secret).

barrykul

April 28th, 2008, 09:35 PM

I don't know weather you live in India or not but calling the Indian public pampered is almost laughable , have you ever been in a crammed DTC bus to Nagafgarh or traveled in a 2nd AC to Jharkhand , I would bet my right eye that you have't , the public Suffers and suffers day in day out .

Bossji, I know that you have to be a champion olympian (similar to the Chinese Tall Bullies with the Olympic torch) to get on to a DTC bus and once you are inside pray that you are not crushed by two healthy Punjabi Motorhams otherwise you can kiss your life goodbye :) Seriously Indian public has put up with bad infra and services because of the subsidy culture. Everyone wants freebies as if it were their birthright.

Now do I get your right eye?

A UDF for of Rs. 1000 is significant for a passenger who pays only Rs. 2500 for a ticket .

This I agree with you. Cannot have UDF uniform for all flights. For domestic flights they have to charge much less compared to international. A reasonable charge could be Rs 100-200 for short haul domestic flights. Volumes will make up for the revenue.

stillwater

April 29th, 2008, 03:42 AM

I don't disagree with the idea of having a UDF. Its kind of like paying toll on an expressway i guess. But why does the UDF have to be a flat rate. Isn't it a better idea to have it as a percentage of the ticket price? That cuts out the problem of passengers on short distance and cheap flights seeing a sharp increase in their ticket prices and makes everyone pay a reasonable amount as UDF according to their ticket.

qwertyasd

April 29th, 2008, 04:11 AM

sammyk

April 29th, 2008, 04:41 AM

stillwater - this kind of non-flat UDF does not work because people have an incentive to break up their ticket into smaller trips, e.g. BLR-BOM-DEL will be charged for BLR-BOM instead of BLR-DEL.

However, i agree - no subsidies for the rich.

Higher UDF for international and lesser for domestic is a good mid-point.

Would people really hassle themselves to avoid the UDF? If you have two tickets (assuming the second leg doesn't have its own UDF which could happen as more airports are built/upgraded), wouldn't you have to check in twice and if you have luggage, collect it and check it in again also? I know Indians go to great lengths to save a buck but c'mon.

Silicon_Valley

April 29th, 2008, 04:44 AM

I am not quite sure how the govt. utilizes tax payers' money and I feel there is lack of transparency there unless I am utterly mistaken.

But in a private consortium as BIAL as long as the UDFs are used to maintain the airport world-class, which I think will happen unlike a govt. organisation, it should be absolutely fine to charge a nominal UDF. Something like Rs. 1000 for international and Rs. 200 for domestic seems sensible to me.

Prakash KR

April 29th, 2008, 05:52 AM

Why are people assuming that the airport doesn't support the expected number of passengers? It is much bigger than HAL and will easily support the existing number of passengers and more for the next few years.

The agreement wasn't signed in secret, the capacity isn't suspect and the airport itself meets all guidelines. Let the government not try to armtwist the private developers. Let the airport begin operating and if few years down the road if BIAL capacity becomes a bottleneck, the issue of reopening HAL airport can be looked at. It is not like HAL airport will go into disuse. HAL and IAF will continue to use it.

Why not think this way? If BIAL claim of capacity is true and can sustain in future, why are people afraid of HAL as competitor? Many of you say HAL airport is junkyard, they dont like using it ..blah..blah...and blah.. and still they are afraid of HAL airport taking away traffic. What kind of nonsense is this?

If people donot like using HAL airport, they will start using more of BIAL and HAL will die a natural death. If some people like using HAL airport, then some airlines will continue flying from HAL airport and will serve public in a useful way. Leave the final decision to the public who are the ultimate users and airlines serving them. That is the true way how market led economy works leading to sustained economic growth.

If you think by some shady and cunning agreement you can kill a fully functioning airport and grab monopolistic airport status for BIAL, it is nothing but barbaric act. It is ultimate shame for any democracy if such a thing happens to India and Bangalore in particular.

Prodigist

April 29th, 2008, 06:28 AM

Leave the final decision to the public who are the ultimate users and airlines serving them. That is the true way how market led economy works leading to sustained economic growth.

Well then whats the use o this new international airport then???? Its an obvious decision that the airlines would prefer HAL because o lower costs....
If thats the case you should have opposed the project right from its start.
The SEIMENS consortium is not here or public service, they expect a return on their investments

himmat113

April 29th, 2008, 06:56 AM

stillwater - this kind of non-flat UDF does not work because people have an incentive to break up their ticket into smaller trips, e.g. BLR-BOM-DEL will be charged for BLR-BOM instead of BLR-DEL.

However, i agree - no subsidies for the rich.

Higher UDF for international and lesser for domestic is a good mid-point.

If a person splits his BLR-DEL journey into two parts to avoid paying a UDF of Rs. 700.00 (assuming that the UDF will be Rs. 700.00), he/she would then have to pay additional fuel surcharge for the second flight. This additional fuel surcharge will be around Rs. 2500.00. He ends up paying much more than the UDF he wanted to avoid.

jammy97

April 29th, 2008, 07:28 AM

Airport Shuttle Service: BMTC has procured 40 air-conditioned Volvo buses for dedicated Shuttle Services between the Airport and seven destinations across the City. Named Vayu Vajra, these buses will ply on nine routes, every 15 minutes. The cost of the bus fare would range from Rs. 80 to Rs. 200 depending on the distance.

In addition, BMTC has also procured 116 Ashok Leyland Non AC buses to connect the airport to the City. Named Suvarna, these buses will ply during peak hours of the morning and evening. The cost for each trip in these buses will range between Rs.20 to Rs.90 per trip, depending on the distance travelled.

A map detailing the routes of these buses is attached for your reference.

Taxi service: The taxi services to and from the airport have been designed to suit everyone’s requirements and budget.

Post-paid taxi facilities
BIAL is committed to providing reliable, affordable and safe taxi facilities at the airport. BIAL has selected (by open tender) MERU & EASYCAB to provide basic taxi services. The taxi operators will have basic AC cars, all equipped with tracking devices to ensure safety and transparency. Both operators have professional call centres. Hence, passengers coming to the airport can call the cab call centres and a cab will pick them up and drop them at the airport. For passengers arriving at the airport, there is a dedicated taxi holding area where the passenger can get a cab.
The post paid taxi facility will be available on meter charges @ Rs.15/- per km (subject to Govt regulation).

Pre-paid facilities
Hertz and Akbar Travels will provide pre paid Limousine and car rental facilities. Hertz will launch a fleet of Mercedes - C & E class cars and will expand the fleet depending on the demand and business objectives. Limousine services will be available at the limo service counters at the terminal building arrival and based on special tariffs applicable for BIAL.

Self Drive
Cars will also be available on self drive basis. There will be three ranges of self drive cars- the compact category (Suzuki Swift), the intermediate range – (Ford Fiesta), the standard category- (Toyota corolla), Multi Utility Vehicles (Toyota Innova) and Sports Utility Vehicles (Ford Endeavour).
These cars will be given to the passenger with a full fuel tank and the car has to be returned with full fuel tank. A flexible pick up and drop off facility in town and at the airport will be offered. To elaborate, the passenger can pick up the car at the airport and then drop it off anywhere in the city or in Hyderabad or Chennai. Similarly, he can pick up the car at any of these cities and drop it off at the airport. The conditions are that the customer has to be over 21 yrs of age and possess a valid Indian license

Parking Facilities: The Bengaluru International Airport’s car park can accommodate 2000 cars. The system used for the parking management is fully automated, efficient and transparent and is provided by SKIDATA™, a leading global provider of car park systems at airports. Central Parking Solutions, India’s largest car park operator, will manage parking at the new airport.

The passengers and visitors using the parking facility at the new airport will find it cheaper and more flexible when compared to the existing airport. A 10 minute free drop off facility has been created in front of the terminal building to facilitate the passengers. For parking, various zones have been created, these include long term parking, short term parking & two wheelers, general parking and taxis.

Car parking fees have been priced at Rs.40/- for two hours and Rs.20/- for every additional hour in the general parking area. For overnight parking, Rs. 300 will be charged for the first 24 hours and Rs. 200 for every additional day. An airport parking map has been developed to help passengers use the facilities depending on their requirement.

BIAL will also provide valet parking, a dedicated zone for tour operator buses and premium pick up areas. Travellers can be assured that parking, getting picked up or dropped off at the new airport will be convenient and well organised.

Kindly find a detailed map attached for further information on the parking layout, porter service, valet service and airport taxi service.

In addition to this, BIAL has a staff parking lot that can accommodate 700 cars.

Source: BIAL Website (http://www.bialairport.com/index.htm)

schan123

April 29th, 2008, 08:52 AM

[QUOTE=jammy97;20138660]Airport Shuttle Service: ....

Taxi service: The taxi services to and from the airport have been designed to suit everyone’s requirements and budget.

Post-paid taxi facilities
BIAL is committed to providing reliable, affordable and safe taxi facilities at the airport. BIAL has selected (by open tender) MERU & EASYCAB to provide basic taxi services. The taxi operators will have basic AC cars, all equipped with tracking devices to ensure safety and transparency. Both operators have ....]

Here is my experience with Meru Cabs in Hyderabad. I called Meru Cab to go to the new airport at 10.45 pm on Apr 7. Had to catch an international flight leaving at 3 AM. The cab was on time. I loaded all my luggage into the trunk of the cab - this included my carry on containing all my documents such as passport, etc. For some reason the driver went back to the trunk, opened it, threw something in, closed it and came back. He then started searching for the car key, could not find it and realized that he had lost it in the trunk.

So, now we were sitting inside the car with the car key somewhere in the trunk. We asked the driver if the trunk could be opened from inside. Surprisingly there was no mechanism (car type - Mahindra Logan). Could the rear car seat be pulled down. Driver tried to do that but was not successful. Then, I asked him if his company had a spare key somewhere. So he calls someone probably in their control room to find out if there was a spare key. I took the phone from the driver and talked to this person. He states that they have to request a spare key from Mahindra (i.e. the dealer for the car) and that the key will have to be delivered to their control room and from there to us. So all in all he does not know how long it will take.

By this time it is already 11 PM. I got pissed of with the driver and somehow managed to pull down the rear seat by brute force. After this the driver cannot remember where the key might be. We looked around for a minute or so and finally he found it not in the trunk but in the small space where the trunk closes near the rear window (hope this makes sense). So now we had to raise the trunk metal adjacent to the rear window so that the key could be retrieved. We somehow managed to get that done.

Now, while all this was happening I tried talking to the guys at Meru Cabs control room three times. Each time I got very rudely cut off. I was even reminded by one guy that it was Ugadi, a holiday and it will take some time maybe even a couple of hours for the situation to be resolved.

The moment I retrieved my luggage, I cancelled the cab service, called another cab who arrived in ten minutes. All in all, I was able to make it in time to catch the flight.

Customer service at these so called new Cab Services does not exist. These guys would have left me to hang dry and I might have even missed my flight that day. So, be careful before you use these new cab services. They may have fancy new cars but no customer service. Ever heard of a cab service which does not have spare keys for its cars......

zenith_suv

April 29th, 2008, 09:02 AM

Maybe BIAL could make peace with the Idea of charging $25 UDF for an international passenger , a lesser amount for a full service domestic carrier and none whatsoever for Low cost carrier passengers.

zenith_suv

April 29th, 2008, 09:05 AM

Bossji, I know that you have to be a champion olympian (similar to the Chinese Tall Bullies with the Olympic torch) to get on to a DTC bus and once you are inside pray that you are not crushed by two healthy Punjabi Motorhams otherwise you can kiss your life goodbye :) Seriously Indian public has put up with bad infra and services because of the subsidy culture. Everyone wants freebies as if it were their birthright.

.

If subsidies are removed from essential commodities, the whole nation will go into debt , I suppose you have grossly under-estimated the Poverty levels in India , non-subsadising leads to a host of problems.

mpvp

April 29th, 2008, 10:04 AM

Well then whats the use o this new international airport then???? Its an obvious decision that the airlines would prefer HAL because o lower costs....

At last the bitter truth is out. HAL airport is not as bad as some people are trying to project. Airlines may prefer HAL to BIAL due to many reasons, cost being one of the factors.

BIAL should try to provide good services at lower costs instead of squeezing money from public for each and every thing while flying through the airport. This is the decent and moral way to capture passenger traffic away from HAL airport and not through a backdoor "concession agreement" by threatening to shut down HAL airport.

The SEIMENS consortium is not here or public service, they expect a return on their investments

We all know Enron story with Dabhol project in Maharashtra and the Bhopal gas tragedy by Union Carbide in Madhya pradesh. In both the cases, public was cheated and so far no compensation paid to public after these many years. Hence, public interest is equally or even more important compared to return on investment for the MNCs in their Indian projects and BIAL is no exception.

Silicon_Valley

April 29th, 2008, 10:15 AM

If a person splits his BLR-DEL journey into two parts to avoid paying a UDF of Rs. 700.00 (assuming that the UDF will be Rs. 700.00), he/she would then have to pay additional fuel surcharge for the second flight. This additional fuel surcharge will be around Rs. 2500.00. He ends up paying much more than the UDF he wanted to avoid.

Yup, that's a good point

mailabode

April 29th, 2008, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by himmat113
If a person splits his BLR-DEL journey into two parts to avoid paying a UDF of Rs. 700.00 (assuming that the UDF will be Rs. 700.00), he/she would then have to pay additional fuel surcharge for the second flight. This additional fuel surcharge will be around Rs. 2500.00. He ends up paying much more than the UDF he wanted to avoid.

QUOTE=Silicon_Valley;20142248]

Yup, that's a good point

A UDF of 500 for all domestic flights was ok i thought. Eyebrows will be raised because it would seem a strange proposition, but eventually people will understand why and get used to it. Its happenning a lot all over the world, initially eyebrows raised(natural reaction to something new), but then getting used to it(if that UDF was prohibitive, surely they would never have accepted it or paid). I think low cost carrier Easy Jet had stopped using two NEW airports for 2 years because of high surcharges but eventually its restored operations to these two airports.
Anyways i thought UDF for domestic flights had been cancelled at BIAL.

A UDF of 1000 for international flights seems ok(thats a lot less than many other international airports collect).

In general: People should learn to pay for what they get and not expect govt subsidies-it works in India- see Narendra Modi's Gujarat. People were sceptical of his radical policies at the beginning(which included stopping free lunches and compelling all people to strictly obey the law), but eventually they saw and actually started enjoying the benefits of 'abolishing unnecessary subsidies, the benefits of strict implementation of law and order', and even with the media trying to sully his name every day the public got him elected- because for the first time in decades they saw that 'sound economic policies and law and order' work better than 'irresponsible-socialism and lawlessness and disorder' just like its worked in developed countries- and they are convinced that if they enable such policies to continue they will certainly create a Gujarat thats developed to a standard of developed countries in the not so distant future.

I thought talking about the root causes helped than talking about only the symptoms.

jammy97

April 29th, 2008, 12:23 PM

New Delhi, Apr 29 (PTI) The government today said the new Bangalore airport would be made operational by the last week of May, while keeping alive the option of allowing small aircraft to use the existing HAL airport.

"We have given them (BIAL) various options including allowing aircraft less than 80-seaters to operate out of the existing airport," Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel told reporters here.

He said extensive discussions were held with BIAL, the operators of the new airport, "in accordance with advice of the Karnataka High Court regarding the opening of the new Bangalore airport." The High Court had earlier advised the government to explore the possibility of allowing the existing airport run by HAL to function.

"There are legal issues, contractual obligations and complexities. We discussed all that. No decision has been taken but the new Bangalore airport at Devanahalli will be made operational in the last week of May. We will meet again on May 12 to examine various aspects," Patel said. PTI ARC KM 04291511 DEL

Source: PTI, 29th Apr 2008 (http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/91F87A6AE9DAA28D6525743A00363F3A?OpenDocument)

himmat113

April 29th, 2008, 02:33 PM

Does this mean that the airport will not open on May 11th?

world1

April 29th, 2008, 02:36 PM

^^yes..the airport wont open ill 3rd week of may....well it was just abt 2 happen.....the only thing 2 b happy abt is that atleast the connection will be FULLY ready..not incomplete....:):ohno:

raghussc

April 29th, 2008, 02:48 PM

hmmm ... so it was high court now that successfully poked into the opening of BIAL on May 11th :) j/k

anyways, can someone take pics of that stupid trumpet interchange so that we all cud see how close it is to completion ? thanks

rkramesh

April 29th, 2008, 02:52 PM

What a shame! - another 2 weeks delayed - another 20Cr loss- this 60 Cr loss over 6 weeks might be equal to the amount BIAL would have earned on a reasonable UDF or Rs 1000 per international passenger and Rs 200 per national ones.

If the Government can go back on it's word, then how does it expect to enforce such obligations legally on people in general in our country. It is an underlying Indian notion that our Govt doesnt deserve any respect what so ever - that we are ruled by the most fallen of the flock - and surely this is true in a number of cases. It's time we made the Govt. more pro active in changing this very real attitude that we all have towards the people who lay down the laws and rule the country.

Agreed such an obligation was not in the best of public interest - but I think BIAL should get an option to run HAL and get some benefit from it since it has been earlier promised the whole of the market - This is a learning curve since BIAL was a pioneer project of this nature in our country. Good thing this obligation no longer applies to other new projects but at least for the 2 projects BIAL and HIAL - the option of letting the promoters run and earn a part of the proceeds from the old airports should be given - if the Govt. of India is to value it's words.
If this is done the old airports will be run better and could be used as an LCC airport and/or for short distance flights > 600kms only. The lower standards of facilities and the cost+time+inconvenience of travelling to BIAL and HIAL from HAL n Begumpet to catch a transit(non LCC) or international flight will be factors for a percent of passengers preferring the new airports for some national and all international flights.

If the Govt. can't uphold their own word, they can't set a good example to others nor can they effectively enforce laws which will be seen as an option rather than a law - an unsavory stituation with continued long term prevalence of corruption in the corridors of power!

This time we must all put our foot down n ensure that there are no more delays after the last week of May!

himmat113

April 29th, 2008, 03:12 PM

world1

April 29th, 2008, 03:54 PM

hey..people...just saw NDTV..opening date is 29th MAY.......

mailabode

April 29th, 2008, 04:11 PM

raghussc

April 29th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Commercial operations at HAL should be handed over to BIAL. It cannot be made to suffer because of the incomptetence of our ministers and babus. All AAI employees at HAL should also be transferred to other locations and their posts be taken over by professional BIAL employees.

That's a good idea actually ... Let BIAL run the show at HAL airport also, I mean the commercial ops and give a share of those earnings to HAL also, and let BIAL allow only short haul flights like within karnataka and maybe to Tirupati/HYD/Chennai from HAL, and rest all other flights from BIAL.

Sounds like a deal ? Then take this, the only problem will be faced by those pax who change 'airlines' not just airplanes in BLR to connect to a different destination. Airlines and passengers will sort it out :) Say someone from Mangalore wants to goto DEL, they'll first land at HAL, then go from HAL to BIAL from where he/she will fly to DEL. Is this wanted ?

The CA with BIAL was signed off in the best interest of public on that signing day. Govt of India didn't predict or saw the explosive growth of B'lore on that day, neither did BIAL with its survey.

First it was the NHAI for the trumpet interchange, then state govt on connectivity issue, then it's BIAL+AAI combo for ATC issue, then the PILs and HighCourt which have successfully delayed the opening of BIAL. Is there any other organization in the country that can poke in and further delay the opening of BIAL on May 29th ?

mailabode

April 29th, 2008, 05:47 PM

Commercial operations at HAL should be handed over to BIAL. It cannot be made to suffer because of the incomptetence of our ministers and babus. All AAI employees at HAL should also be transferred to other locations and their posts be taken over by professional BIAL employees.

Good idea Himmat. But i feel its easier said(by us) than done. Will AAI employees allow this and will there be another strike?.
What about the legalities of this.
Will there be another round of nasty politics and red tape before such a thing is agreed upon?. The politicians would love to have another round of enriching negotiations and bargaining.
Whats the basis to decide what flights should operate out of HAL and what flights should operate out of BIAL - its not going to be easy because the plan was made on the basis HAL would be closed- now the plan first goes into disarray.

And i feel that if its decided HAL will be kept open it will send the message that anything goes in India and court verdicts and legal agreements arent binding and entering into a legal agreement in the future is just a useless exercise. I feel that if there are loopholes in the law which can be used to put off dedicated developers, there would surely be at the other end of the spectrum crooked incompetent developers who would love to be using the loopholes and manipulating the law - and the kind of developers we would have in the future will be crooks and our netas would love to have them and the better ones will prefer not to invest in India.[/SIZE]

ravibg

April 29th, 2008, 07:58 PM

The central govt is blackmailing BIAL by holding up its approval. It is playing politics with BIAL. It approved HIAL even though it had the same ATC and connectivity issues just because it was named after Rajiv Gandhi. Now, it is trying to armtwist BIAL.

The state and central governments went into the agreement with BIAL with both eyes open, and the clauses were public that there would be no other airport within 150kms. If the governments had not agreed to it, maybe the current consoritum wouldn't have agreed to the airport, and someone else who was happy with it would have agreed. But for folks to call some agreement shady and cunning doesn't cut it. If someone hired you to do a job 9am-5pm and on the day of joining, if you were told that you will have to instead work 9am-2pm and someone else will work from 3-5pm and that you will lose your salary for those two hours, would anyone agree to it?

It is very bad if the government itself goes back on its word. BIAL should resist all attempts to keep HAL airport open. I am fine with HAL airport being operated for upto 50 seats, but not 80 seat aircrafts.

Probably, the central government is waiting for the karnataka polls to be completed, so that it can have Sonia Gandhi and the PM open it, claiming credit for it. If they open it on May 11, none of them can participate in its opening ceremony.

raghussc

April 29th, 2008, 08:48 PM

ravibg .. u have a valid point supporting what mailabode said about but in a different perspective ... after all, looks like BIAL problems will be solved if they name it after a gandhian :D

anyways, as an fyi, guess u have unnecessarily brought up HIAL here ... ATC equipment in Hyderabad did not arrive in the end of Feb like in BIAL, nor the trumpet interchange in HYD was still in construction when HIAL was thrown open, and only after HIAL commenced operations, ppl realized that they unnecessariliy raised hue n cry on connectivity issues. Of course, HIAL is not 40 kms away as BIAL is, it's only abt 20-24 km from the center city, so travel time is less.

I say that BIAL should be thrown open once the trumpet interchange is done and then ppl shud talk about connectivity issues. of course, the name shud also be changed after some stupid gandhi too to get central govt immediate blessings :D Maybe BIAL should also bribe rank n file to obtain clearances, it may not cost them more than a month of UDF for those bribes :D

ravibg

April 29th, 2008, 10:14 PM

New Bangalore airport will open end of May (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/04/30/stories/2008043050071200.htm)

New Delhi, April 29 The new airport in Bangalore, which is being developed by a Siemens Project-led consortium, will now open in the last week of May, the Minister for Civil Aviation, Mr Praful Patel, announced on Tuesday. The airport promoters had earlier announced that the new airport will open on May 11.

Speaking to the media after a meeting with the airport promoters, the Minister said keeping in mind the observation of the Karnataka High Court, the developers have been asked to see whether the existing HAL airport in the city can also be kept operational.

Earlier this month, the High Court had directed the Union, State Government and Airports Authority of India to renegotiate the closure of HAL airport and levy of user development fee on passengers using the new airport.
HAL for short-haul flights

At today’s meeting it was suggested that the existing HAL airport be kept open for short haul flights of 30-45 minutes duration that are operated with aircraft seating of less than 80 passengers.

“There are legal issues, contractual obligations and complexities. We discussed all these at the meeting. No decision has been taken but the new Bangalore airport at Devanahalli will be made operational in the last week of May. We will meet again on May 12,” Mr Patel said.
Hyderabad different

Asked whether the option of keeping both the airports open will also be exercised in Hyderabad, the Minister said that the situation in Hyderabad was different. “The new airport in Hyderabad has become operational. We will not be holding discussions with the promoters of the new airport in Hyderabad for keeping Begumpet airport open,” Mr Patel said.

The new Bangalore airport, which was inspected by a team from the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) last week, is yet to be given an operational licence.

Sources indicated that a clear picture on levy of UDF on domestic passengers is likely to emerge in the next three months by when the Centre is expected to firm up guidelines for its levy.

Why is BIAL getting a raw deal? Why should it matter if HIAL is already open? Isn't the minister implying that they are blackmailing BIAL as they are yet to be given permission to open?

ravibg

April 29th, 2008, 10:19 PM

New airport to be operational by May-end (http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/30/stories/2008043050540100.htm)

...
Meanwhile, Karnataka Principal Secretary (Industries and Commerce) V.P. Baligar told The Hindu that the formal inspection report of the new airport from the DGCA was still awaited. The BIAL had to provide more details on levying user development fee. Any decision on retaining or closing the HAL Airport, and user development fee was likely to influence the electorate in the State that is going to the polls and hence it was resolved to take the final decision at a later stage, he said.

When contacted, a BIAL spokesperson said that the company had “taken note” of the suggestions made by the Ministry of Civil Aviation. However, the BIAL insisted on the “importance of having a single aviation platform”, implying that the two airports could not be functional at the same time.
...

Like I said, the central government is playing politics here, nothing to do with the airport per se.

Silicon_Valley

April 30th, 2008, 03:50 AM

luvBlore

April 30th, 2008, 04:57 AM

In all this drama with BIAL...Civil aviation ministry is clearly blackmailing BIAL. BIAL should be little aggressive . it lacks in marketing core issues with the media and people. they look defensive in handling with centre. i think this needs to be look at seriously. if they are on the right side of the law why to fear with centre.

Buccaneer

April 30th, 2008, 05:06 AM

Prakash KR

April 30th, 2008, 06:25 AM

Devanahalli airport to take wing by May-end

DH News Service, New Delhi:

The civil aviation ministry has decided that the new Bengaluru International Airport (BIA) will be opened in the last week of May and has asked the BIA partners to consider the option of allowing operation of smaller aircraft from the existing HAL aerodrome.

At the meeting, it was explained to the BIAL that it was in the interest of everybody to keep the HAL airport open as otherwise short haul passengers would face problems, both from the point of view of connectivity as well as user fee. If not, it may even lead to passengers stopping patronising the aviation sector altogether. It is expected that the Board of the BIAL may discuss the issue before the May 12 meeting

More details at
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Apr302008/scroll2008043065447.asp?section=updatenews

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Kudos to Shri Praful Patel and Civil Aviation Ministry for initiating the discussions with BIAL on keeping HAL airport open. I guess May 12 next meeting was chosen because of Karnataka elections on May 11. I also welcome BIAL statement that they will consider the proposals put forward by Civil Aviation ministry during the meeting.

I feel aircraft sizes upto Boeing 737 and Airbus A320 should continue in HAL as such (due to extensive use in India for short haul flights) where as bigger ones like Boeing 747/777/787 and A 380 etc. limited to BIAL. Also transit connections need be allowed only at BIAL.

It is heartening to hear that no UDF for domestic pax for next 3 months till ministry comes up with a solution. I fully support it and also strongly suggest that ministry waive off UDF permanently for domestic pax. It makes no sense to impose UDF for domestic travellers.

I dont think BIAL taking over HAL will work out as HAL /AAI is already administering the airport. Maybe BIAL can be provided a stake in HAL airport so that they also get a share of revenue from HAL airport. Let HAL and AAI run the HAL airport as it is now. If only 80 seater aircraft is run on HAL airport, it is a waste of resources built by Government all these years. HAL airport runway can handle B747s comfortably and hence it will be gross under utilisation if only 80 seater aircrafts run. As said before LCCs may be directed to HAL airport irrespective of aircraft size upto B737/A320 and all domestic & international normal flights of any aircraft size from BIAL airport.

ravibg

April 30th, 2008, 07:05 AM

Why doesn't it make sense for domestic passengers to pay UDF? Aren't they using the airport facilities? The price can be low, around 250-350 per passenger, similar to the fee that AAI charges currently.

BIAL has built the airport putting in thousands of crores based on the agreement that they will get all air traffic to/from Bangalore. What were all these people protesting against closure of HAL airport doing all these years? They should have protested during the bidding stage itself when all clauses were made public.

All this negotiation is for political mileage. Ultimately, both sides will compromise, and at most 50 seater aircraft will be allowed to operate from HAL airport. ATR-42 aircraft can be used for operation to Chennai ,Hyderabad and Trivandrum, and that might be all that BIAL will be willing to concede.

HAL had revenues of more than 100 crores per year from its airport while investing hardly 1-2% of it into its airport. So there is no loss to taxpayer or government.

jammy97

April 30th, 2008, 07:33 AM

I feel aircraft sizes upto Boeing 737 and Airbus A320 [B]should continue in HAL as such (due to extensive use in India for short haul flights) where as bigger ones like Boeing 747/777/787 and A 380 etc. limited to BIAL. Also transit connections need be allowed only at BIAL.

It is heartening to hear that no UDF for domestic pax for next 3 months till ministry comes up with a solution. I fully support it and also strongly suggest that ministry waive off UDF permanently for domestic pax. It makes no sense to impose UDF for domestic travellers.

I dont think BIAL taking over HAL will work out as HAL /AAI is already administering the airport. Maybe BIAL can be provided a stake in HAL airport so that they also get a share of revenue from HAL airport. Let HAL and AAI run the HAL airport as it is now. If only 80 seater aircraft is run on HAL airport, it is a waste of resources built by Government all these years. HAL airport runway can handle B747s comfortably and hence it will be gross under utilisation if only 80 seater aircrafts run. As said before LCCs may be directed to HAL airport irrespective of aircraft size upto B737/A320 and all domestic & international normal flights of any aircraft size from BIAL airport.

Prakash,

HAL airport wasnt even meant to be a civilian airport...let alone handling 747's. Most domestic airlines now use A320's/319's and B737's. Infact Deccan, Kingfisher, Indigo, Spicejet and GoAir have most aircrafts of this type. If these are allowed to operate from HAL airport, wont it mean underutilization of BIA?

I think the model for revenue sharing between HAL-BIAL is fair. Bangalore needs two airports. Probably when there is more airlines operating from Bangalore, HAL can take more share of the traffic and leave the major revenue generating aircrafts to BIAL.

barrykul

April 30th, 2008, 07:35 AM

waive off UDF permanently for domestic pax. It makes no sense to impose UDF for domestic travellers.

I never can understand such thinking. Everyone wants freebies, but considering the state of infrastructure development, this is a shame. Air traveling public are no way considered poor, they are the middle to upper class and shelling out a small percentage towards development of infra goes a long way. Every airport charges a service fee.

In this debate to keep HAL open, a key point missed is that HAL is central govt. owned. HAL does not belong to Karnataka state. Another point is that defence related work has taken second fiddle due to the commercial use of HAL. Now is the time to revert HAL back to its original use - defence and IAF use exclusively. There are many programs that DRDO/ADA have on the anvil including LCA, Saras, MCA, Helos etc. Providing a full fledged testing for such activities is a national priority. IAF could use the airport to house a squadron.

Prakash KR

April 30th, 2008, 07:47 AM

Air traveling public are no way considered poor, they are the middle to upper class and shelling out a small percentage towards development of infra goes a long way. Every airport charges a service fee.

When Government built airports in the country like Mumbai, Delhi etc., did they charge UDF from passengers? No. So you consider Government money as taken for granted whereas you support private developers cause for earning through UDF. Is not that double standards?

Now is the time to revert HAL back to its original use - defence and IAF use exclusively. IAF could use the airport to house a full fledged squadron.

For your information, IAF has a full fledged base at Yelahanka and they base their fighters and training aircrafts there. As Iam aware, HAL airport is used for testing of some aircrafts being developed only and donot consume much time.

Whereas Government has heavily invested in HAL airport over past years to extend the runway length to B747 capability and terminal upgradations on both domestic & international. Hence, HAL airport should be put to maximum use for commercial aircraft considering the huge investments done by Government on HAL airport. Government money is nothing but yours and mine tax money included, do you want it to go waste?

himmat113

April 30th, 2008, 07:52 AM

We simply cannot have have all B737 and A320 ops from HAL and wide body ops from BIAL. This will imply that all domestic operations will be from HAL and BIAL will be used for international ops only. In such a case, BIAL will be grossly underutilized and will never be profitable.

If at all HAL needs to be kept open, it should be only for turbo prop ops and general aviation.

barrykul

April 30th, 2008, 08:12 AM

mailabode

April 30th, 2008, 10:36 AM

Why not think this way? If BIAL claim of capacity is true and can sustain in future, why are people afraid of HAL as competitor? Many of you say HAL airport is junkyard, they dont like using it ..blah..blah...and blah.. and still they are afraid of HAL airport taking away traffic. What kind of nonsense is this?

If people do not like using HAL airport, they will start using more of BIAL and HAL will die a natural death. If some people like using HAL airport, then some airlines will continue flying from HAL airport and will serve public in a useful way. Leave the final decision to the public who are the ultimate users and airlines serving them. That is the true way how market led economy works leading to sustained economic growth.

If you think by some shady and cunning agreement you can kill a fully functioning airport and grab monopolistic airport status for BIAL, it is nothing but barbaric act. It is ultimate shame for any democracy if such a thing happens to India and Bangalore in particular.

I am sure that if they expand HAL today and close BIAL a spoilsport(s) would be happy because it does not hurt him. I am sure if he could travel from a helipad on his roof top he would be happier than travelling to HAL. If he could beam himself over the internet in a star trek kind of scenario he would be even more happy. IF he could get a billion dollars free to use it on anything he wanted he surely would be happy. There is no end to needs. But thats not how the world works. The world works on trust and on systems and standards and respecting the law - thats how MOST of the developed countries became developed. And Indians really want India to become a developed country- and we have 2 choices- to choose the path to development or to be the same. The path to development is hard and involves difficult changes(bitter in the short term but which bear fruit in the long term to everyone)- we cant have it both ways(have the cake and eat it too)- mathematically it wont work.
New airports of the world are being constructed outside the city- the convenience is maintained by providing affordable, clean, comfortable and fast connectivity. Why not take the government to task for not providing connectivity.
Take BIAL to task only for not having made a better product- i.e not having vertical separation etc etc. But i suggest agreements and trust are not taken lightly and given due respect. I think the spoil sports knew pretty well from early on that HAL airport would be closed, and their claims of having been ignorant about this is a convenient excuse- most people knew about this from the time the project started. If they did not keep their eyes open or did not know(for whatever reason)its nobody else's fault.
How could someone call the agreement cunning NOW?- why did they not raise it when the project began?- the cunning thing here is having been sly enough not to have raised these objections 2-3 years ago trying to blackmail BIAL now- i dont think these people should be talking about honesty. Do they mean every similar agreement signed in the world is cunning. This is fantastic drama. Should such people experience how it feels to be at the receiving end where someone else violates an agreement signed with them- an agreement based on which they invested all their life's savings only to find it violated when they had fulfilled their contractual obligation- pushing them into bankruptcy and rendering their families homeless - then i am sure they would not be croaking so much.
Mr Prakash, I did not know killing concrete structures was barbaric and murder. Going by your logic we would still be living in the stone age where everything will remain untouched.
You want subsidies and you dont mind AAI 'not investing in improving infrastructure at HAL' as its been alll these years. So at the time of conceptualizing BIAL did you oppose the BIAL project as being a wasteful exercise(just for Boeing 787s and A380s? - that could have been achieved by extending the runway at HAL). We cant have it both ways.

"....I feel aircraft sizes upto Boeing 737 and Airbus A320 should continue in HAL as such (due to extensive use in India for short haul flights) where as bigger ones like Boeing 747/777/787 and A 380 etc. limited to BIAL....".

I wonder if any airpoirt in the world works like that - only 747/777/787 and A380 ? !!!. Thats a very innovative trend indeed in aviation!!!.

Whereas Government has heavily invested in HAL airport over past years to extend the runway length to B747 capability and terminal upgradations on both domestic & international. Hence, HAL airport should be put to maximum use for commercial aircraft considering the huge investments done by Government on HAL airport. Government money is nothing but yours and mine tax money included, do you want it to go waste?
So HAL or the airforce will not have the need to operate planes that are bigger than 737s or have any use for the longer runway at HAL?. I am sure HAL or airforce doesnt share this view. Are you sure HAL has not been looking at manufacturing commercial aircraft(transport/passenger) in the future?. Both these organizations will have full use for the airport. And apart from use by HAL the airport would cater to official visits by the PMs, CMs or foreign heads of state or other governmental use. "Invested Heavily"- exagerration- govt did not invest - and when its handed back to HAL those things will be worked out between HAL and AAI- you dont have to worry about losses. And if the govt invested(lets say) then this is a good opportunity for the Govt to stop being involved in the business of running airports, release AAI from its control and put a full stop to supporting it financially, allow it to be privatised and let it compete with other private players(but without ever allowing foreigners to buy a stake in it and without ever allowing it to be sold to a foreign owner), and henceforth be only a regulator and monitor. Then the AAI will become a reputed organization indeed

mpvp

April 30th, 2008, 11:45 AM

I feel aircraft sizes upto Boeing 737 and Airbus A320 should continue in HAL as such (due to extensive use in India for short haul flights) where as bigger ones like Boeing 747/777/787 and A 380 etc. limited to BIAL. Also transit connections need be allowed only at BIAL.

If only 80 seater aircraft is run on HAL airport, it is a waste of resources built by Government all these years. HAL airport runway can handle B747s comfortably and hence it will be gross under utilisation if only 80 seater aircrafts run. As said before LCCs may be directed to HAL airport irrespective of aircraft size upto B737/A320 and all domestic & international normal flights of any aircraft size from BIAL airport.

Great news that HAL airport is back in life and Perfectly agree with your proposals. This is the way to go for Bangalore i.e. HAL airport for Low cost airlines and BIAL for full fledged airlines. Instead of fixing restriction on aircraft size, it is better to limit traffic based on number of passengers per annum. HAL airport can be allotted a particular passenger number per annum and based on that number of flights per day to be operated can be deduced.

Since you suggested BIAL also get stake in HAL airport (and I hope BIAL also might consider this) thereby getting revenue share, no need of aircraft restriction needed at HAL airport.

And I sincerely wish BIAL gets going from May 29th as reported and no more dragging of inaugaration date.

mpvp

April 30th, 2008, 12:30 PM

How could someone call the agreement cunning NOW?- why did they not raise it when the project began?- the cunning thing here is having been sly enough not to have raised it then and instead of stopping construction 2-3 years ago trying to blackmail BIAL now- i dont think these people should be talking about honesty. Do they mean every similar agreement signed in the world is cunning?. This is fantastic drama.

Please come to reality. It is nobody else but the highest court in Karnataka that has asked all parties involved to modify the agreement based on Public Interest Litigations after 3 years since BIAL began construction. Please accept the fact this process of modifying agreement is for the larger interests of public.

Please also remember an agreement is a running document and is best served when all parties benefit over the years. As time passes by, many new factors start coming in and invalidate many clauses in the original agreement. Instead of clinging stubbornly to those outdated clauses, it is always best to modify the agreement to suit the changing times. But of course in this process any inconveniences caused to any party should be minimised.

ullasavadan

April 30th, 2008, 02:19 PM

Please come to reality. It is nobody else but the highest court in Karnataka that has asked all parties involved to modify the agreement based on Public Interest Litigations after 3 years since BIAL began construction. Please accept the fact this process of modifying agreement is for the larger interests of public.

Please also remember an agreement is a running document and is best served when all parties benefit over the years. As time passes by, many new factors start coming in and invalidate many clauses in the original agreement. Instead of clinging stubbornly to those outdated clauses, it is always best to modify the agreement to suit the changing times. But of course in this process any inconveniences caused to any party should be minimised.

Yes. The reality is Central Government has utilised the "advice" of High Court to arm twist BIAL and delay it further. This they say is case specific for Bangalore. If the judgement is so good, then why are they not implementing the same to Hyderabad? There also people will benefit. There also old airport can be utilised for better services and easy connectivity. You surely do not need a court to ask Government to implement a system if it is so good.

This itself proves the crooked mind of central government. AND THAT IS THE REALITY.

BIAL is caught in between. God only can help them.

raghussc

April 30th, 2008, 02:47 PM

relax guys .... from the last two or three pages, we have equal contributions on both sides BIAL and HAL ... in a way, the final outcome is: "For the larger benefit of people, agreement signed by none other than the Indian Govt as per law should be broken".

Why does this happen only in Bangalore ?!? Bangaloreans want world class large airport in their backyard and Govt should have constructed so that UDF won't be levied and they don't need to travel so long.

read what Mr. Brunner said today ... BIAL finally opened its mouth to answer all questions, read it thoroughly and then we can come back n bicker :D

http://www.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/144-we-can-handle-all-the-traffic-bials-brunner

Hyd_Nipper

April 30th, 2008, 04:10 PM

B’lore airport has no power, flights return

Bangalore, April 29: Hundreds of passengers were put to inconvenience due to a blackout at the HAL airport here on Tuesday. Three flights could not land as the runway lights went off for a few seconds forcing two flights to redirect to Chennai and one to Hyderabad.

A Kingfisher (414) flight from Chennai was to land at the airport at around 8.15 pm on Tuesday. However, the pilot couldn’t see the runway lights and he circled around the city for almost five minutes. Later, he could see the runway lights but couldn’t land as the weather was bad. He had to redirect the flight to Chennai.

An official from the ATC, explaining this problem, said: "The runway lights are being synchronised in odd and even numbers. When power goes off, half the lights will be on. Usually, flights are landed if that can happen in seven seconds," an official said.

Two other flights — of Kingfisher and Jet Airways — were diverted to Chennai due to bad weather. Some international flights were also diverted to Hyderabad due to air congestion over Bangalore.

Complete Article:
http://www.asianage.com/presentation/leftnavigation/news/top-story/b%E2%80%99lore-airport-has-no-power,-flights-return.aspx

ravibg

April 30th, 2008, 07:05 PM

The High court has NOT "asked all parties to modify the agreement", but has "suggested that all parties negotiate". It is a suggestion that can either be taken or discarded. And the parties can negotiate and decide not to change the agreement too.

And no agreement is a running document. It is a fixed, that is why it is called an agreement. You don't change it as and when one party wants it. The agreement was signed for 25 years and it is best that they stick to it.

barrykul

April 30th, 2008, 07:16 PM

BIAL is a joint consortium between Govt of Karnataka and private parties. HAL is central govt. owned. It would make sense for the govt of karnataka to push for BIAL as the main airport. All revenues collected would be for the benefit of expansion of the greenfield airport. The bigger picture is for Bluru to become a premium destination and with a worldwide name recognition this goal isn't too far off. The main objective should be to have world beating infra and services, revenue and other things would follow. Fast and efficient highways, railways etc should solve the distance issue of BIAL.

bialterminal

April 30th, 2008, 08:02 PM

When Government built airports in the country like Mumbai, Delhi etc., did they charge UDF from passengers? No. So you consider Government money as taken for granted whereas you support private developers cause for earning through UDF. Is not that double standards?
?
The government built airports did not come free for sure. It partly came from taxes paid by the general public and partly by foreign travel taxes (Rs 500?; somebody correct me if I am wrong) that we were paying at least till 2004 (http://www.cbec.gov.in/ftt/notfns/ftt-notfns-idx.htm) and other sources. Only difference is BIAL is calling it UDF and only passengers using the airport are paying for it. For the past 50 odd years taxes were being collected by the government, where are the returns;where is the infrastructure? So, I am not sure I understand where the double standard is? Here we are getting some infrastructure and we are paying for it. How much to pay is a completely different issue and I think it should be some proportion based system depending on travel zone origination/destination. Let's say Zone 1 within Karnataka, Zone 2 within south India, Zone 3 other parts of India, Zone 4 SAARC countries etc. and UDF can be fixed for each zone.

For your information, IAF has a full fledged base at Yelahanka and they base their fighters and training aircrafts there. As Iam aware, HAL airport is used for testing of some aircrafts being developed only and donot consume much time.

Whereas Government has heavily invested in HAL airport over past years to extend the runway length to B747 capability and terminal upgradations on both domestic & international. Hence, HAL airport should be put to maximum use for commercial aircraft considering the huge investments done by Government on HAL airport. Government money is nothing but yours and mine tax money included, do you want it to go waste?
That should have been thought of before development of the new airport began. And, secondly nobody is talking about tearing up the runway and shutting down the airport completely. The airport can be put to use a few years down the lane as necessary once BIAL is established. The root of the issue - good transportation infrastructure - needs to be tackled.

ravibg

April 30th, 2008, 11:02 PM

The government also made more than Rs 100 cr every year for last few years from HAL airport. Where did that money go? The existing HAL airport was severely capacity constrained and there was nothing done to improve them.

‘No domestic user fee for 3 months in Bangalore airport’ (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/05/01/stories/2008050152232300.htm)

Bangalore, April 30 Bangalore International Airport Ltd has relented to requests and fully exempted domestic passengers from levy of a user development fee for the first three months of operation.

BIAL announced its decision here on Tuesday after a meeting in Delhi between BIAL’s CEO, the Minister and officials of Civil Aviation Ministry and the State Government. International passengers, however, are to pay Rs 955 plus tax as proposed earlier.

The meeting was held on the advice of the Karnataka High Court on April 16 to reconsider the twin issues: the retaining of the HAL airport and the levy of user fee on domestic passengers.

On demands to keep the HAL airport running, BIAL maintained its stand on having one operational airport. “We have taken note of the suggestions made by the Ministry of Civil Aviation (MoCA) and have exchanged our views on the importance of having a single aviation platform. Further discussion on this issue will be held in the next meeting scheduled on May 12.”

About the user fee concession, BIAL said, “We have agreed with the suggestion made by the Ministry to have Rs 955 plus tax for every embarking international passenger and no UDF for embarking domestic passenger for a period of three months after the airport opening date.”

The final level of the fee is to be decided later. “The Ministry is working on a guideline for UDF and the final negotiations will be held once this guideline as well as the final audited cost of the BIAL project [are] ascertained,” the statement said.
REASON FOR DELAY

The reason for delaying the airport opening has not been spelt out. Was the stalling for the second time based on reasons of readiness of the Devanahalli airport? Was it a political decision in the midst of the Assembly elections? Or was it due to the contentions on the HAL airport and the user fee?

It was for all these reasons put together, an official present at the meeting said. “It has been felt that the closure of the HAL airport at this juncture might have an influence on the elections.”

“Today’s meeting was called mainly to discuss the two issues of retaining the HAL airport and the UDF as per the High Court directive. We have had the first round of talks today and we will hold the second round [on May 12] after the elections in Bangalore” are over on May 10, the official said.

The airport was first planned to open on March 30 but was stalled on the grounds that the air traffic control system was not ready in time and its staff needed time to train.

So there was no need to postpone the opening of BIAL, but they thought that if BIAL is opened, HAL will have to close, and that might influence voters against congress. SO they decided to postpone it.

lionrapier

April 30th, 2008, 11:11 PM

:blahblah: :blahblah: Too many opinions in this thread. opinions are like A** hole. Everyone's got one! I am getting to see many people's A**holes here :blahblah: :blahblah:

:deadthrea

:wallbash: :wallbash: Its giving me headache to read never ending arguments and opinions :wallbash: :wallbash:

:deadthrea

Post more of intersting news, pictures, facts and figures of both BIAL and HAL airports please

:bash::bash::bash::bash:
:sleepy:

raghussc

April 30th, 2008, 11:24 PM

TdotTdot

May 1st, 2008, 12:15 AM

Come on kannadigas ... teach congress a lesson now and prove that either way congress is to lose the polls for causing delay in opening a worldclass airport by voting against congress ... this is nothing but political **** ...

But who else can you vote for? Everyones the same.

mpvp

May 1st, 2008, 05:50 AM

If the judgement is so good, then why are they not implementing the same to Hyderabad?

In Hyderabad present traffic is 6 million only with reasonable growth and the new Rajiv Gandhi airport present capacity & future plans seemingly can handle this growth. So there is no need to think of reopening Begumpet now.

Whereas in Bangalore, the annual traffic growth is much much more than BIAL had predicted & constructed and BIAL capacity growth plans are grossly inadequate to handle this explosive growth in passenger traffic, whatever lame excuses BIAL may say now. BIAL tried to hide many such facts from the public for 3 years till 2-3 months back when they started slowly revealing the facts but too late by then. So it was BIAL itself who spoiled the concession agreement for closing HAL airport. Under these circumstances, instead of allowing BIAL to again cover up the capacity constraints under sheets as they did before, this time the public, courts and government intervened to continue HAL airport.

Even with HAL airport continuing, BIAL is still going to operate full capacity as it planned and revenues more than it estimated. All this due to the explosive growth in passenger traffic in Bangalore that has stunned all including BIAL though they never admitted so far in public.

The High court has NOT "asked all parties to modify the agreement", but has "suggested that all parties negotiate". It is a suggestion that can either be taken or discarded. And the parties can negotiate and decide not to change the agreement too.

And no agreement is a running document. It is a fixed, that is why it is called an agreement. You don't change it as and when one party wants it. The agreement was signed for 25 years and it is best that they stick to it.

For your info, the court never gives any casual or free advice to parties concerned. The court hours are valuable and limited. When it gives directions, it really is meant to obey. And there is the next hearing on June, 2008.
People who are in the legal field know this very well and hence the meeting conducted at Delhi.

No long term agreements are fixed as you say. Even the BIAL agreement was modified once. So why do you want to raise this an issue here?

ravibg

May 1st, 2008, 06:45 AM

Let the BIAL airport first open and then we will talk of capacities. BIAL has already started planning for 2nd phase. But for that to happen, the govt has to act within the contract framework. people area talking as though the capacity of BIAL and HAL are the same. Let the airport first open, and if it is not sufficient, HAL can be reopened. I doubt whether more than a handful of posters here have even visited BIAL. And among the visitors, most of them have already said that it is much bigger than HAL. So why are people talking as though the airport will be overcrowded from day 1?

Agreements can be modified if both parties want it. One party cannot try to force change in the agreement.

When the court says it is a suggestion, it remains just that, a suggestion. An order is different from a suggestion. And BIAL and MoCA has already compiled with the suggestion. They have discussed the option of keeping HAL airport open, and they might not decide to, but that doesn't mean it is against high court order. As per the HC suggestion, they met, discussed and decided not to keep HAL airport open or keep it open for flights below 50 seat capacity.

Prakash KR

May 1st, 2008, 06:51 AM

read what Mr. Brunner said today ... BIAL finally opened its mouth to answer all questions, read it thoroughly and then we can come back n bicker :D

http://www.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/144-we-can-handle-all-the-traffic-bials-brunner

Good interview with BIAL. Some thoughts to his points from the interview.

Mr.Brunner sees Bangalore to emerge as regional aviation hub of South India. I perfectly agree with his vision and I feel there should be more. Why just limit BIAL to be only hub of South India? After Mumbai and Delhi, Bangalore's BIAL should strive to become the third aviation hub of India itself. Passenger traffic data supports Bangalore in this front.

He said that for seamless domestic/international traffic, single aviation platform preferred. Well, I differ in that. I still feel considering the kind of passenger traffic segments in Indian market - low fare/no frills passenger traffic and normal fare/full service passenger traffic, two airports functioning will be better than one airport. All through ticket/transit passengers and normal fare passengers may be allowed through BIAL. HAL airport may cater to only a pre-determined number of low fare/no frills passengers originating from or terminating into Bangalore.

He also admitted that capacity of BIAL is 11-12 million against projected traffic of 13.2million in 2008-09. This may most likely mean that peak hour slots are already fully booked at BIAL and only non-peak hour slots may be left out in future. This again clearly points to retention of HAL airport where peak hour slots can be conveniently used at both the airports.

mpvp

May 1st, 2008, 07:28 AM

Let the airport first open, and if it is not sufficient, HAL can be reopened. So why are people talking as though the airport will be overcrowded from day 1?

Sorry, dude I feel it should be the other way. Public interest is number one priority for any government or courts. It may be recalled from past experience that BIAL is not transparent to public, they hide more facts than they reveal to public. Hence for public interest, let HAL airport remain as long as it is needed and make BIAL honestly accountable to public. Once public gets required confidence by using BIAL airport with regard to passenger capacity, infrastructure capability, cargo facilities and road/rail/metro connectivity to BIAL established, then we can all think of closing down HAL airport unanimously.

Till then, May 29, 2008 is opening date for BIAL and business as usual at HAL airport.

Agreements can be modified if both parties want it. One party cannot try to force change in the agreement.

Similary, please be aware BIAL is meant for not some private few people but the whole public in large itself. Public cannot be inconvenienced on any front due to mistakes committed by intention or lack of foresight while signing the agreement. Hence, if protecting public interest demands modification of any agreement, it will happen so.

mailabode

May 1st, 2008, 11:58 AM

BIAL should be firm on this, resolve the matter now or take the matter to the supreme court, bring the IATA if possible into this and expose the corrupt system to the world.
Then we can have a halt to all such foreign plunder(because we would have driven away all plunderers) and the good old robust AAI will have a monopoly for the next 50 years and keeping people happy and taking care of their priorities rather than that of businesses - like MPVP says(lets believe him).
Closed door economy is the best for India. Like the wise people say- why spend billions on fancy airports- we should take care of the people first(foreigners will only rob the people) - the right people for India if at all theres any private investment are 'honest to the core' people like Ambani who have never stolen a paisa from the common man, who have discouraged corruption. Look at West Bengal- how happy the people are there. Why dont the other states learn from West Bengal?. If only we had 'honest to the core politicians' like Jyoti Basu in each state we would have a very happy and prosperous India.

mpvp

May 1st, 2008, 12:31 PM

Then we can have a halt to all such foreign plunder and the good old robust AAI will have a monopoly for the next 50 years and keeping people happy and taking care of their priorities rather than that of businesses - like MPVP says(lets believe him).
Closed door economy is the best for India. Like the wise people say- why spend billions on fancy airports- we should take care of the people first(foreigners will only rob the people) - the right people for India if at all theres any private investment are 'honest to the core' people like Ambani

Iam a supporter of open economy. All possible support should be provided to foreign investors to ramp up operations in a positive way. This maynot mean that we have to sacrifice or close down our own profitable working public assets to enhance the investor's profitability further. I dont think any other country would do such a thing for foreign investment either. I still support BIAL for their good job in bringing up the airport in time to meet additional capacity and against closing down HAL airport because it is a profitable asset.

Allowing private monopoly in airport could bring in more nightmares than the public sector inefficiencies that we have been seeing enough and fed up in the past.

raghussc

May 1st, 2008, 03:06 PM

He also admitted that capacity of BIAL is 11-12 million against projected traffic of 13.2million in 2008-09. This may most likely mean that peak hour slots are already fully booked at BIAL and only non-peak hour slots may be left out in future. This again clearly points to retention of HAL airport where peak hour slots can be conveniently used at both the airports.

HAL and BIAL both have only one runway, so the number of peak hour slots remain the same :bash:

Quick question about 'what-ifs' ... HC 'suggested' the parties meet n talk ... MoCA/AAI n BIAL met and talked ... Assuming Govt wants to amend the CA and BIAL doesn't .. what will be next ? Govt will deny/delay license until BIAL agrees to amend the CA .. blackmailing by the highest authority in a nation ?!? Legal ???

BIAL hasn't been transparent until its too late .. then why can't Govt of India come out transparent now and say that it's the damn politics causing the airport delay ?!?

I believe going legal is the last option that BIAL thought of ...

man, our country sux ... first it was Dabhol and now its BIAL ...

ravibg

May 1st, 2008, 07:55 PM

Sorry, dude I feel it should be the other way. Public interest is number one priority for any government or courts. It may be recalled from past experience that BIAL is not transparent to public, they hide more facts than they reveal to public. Hence for public interest, let HAL airport remain as long as it is needed and make BIAL honestly accountable to public. Once public gets required confidence by using BIAL airport with regard to passenger capacity, infrastructure capability, cargo facilities and road/rail/metro connectivity to BIAL established, then we can all think of closing down HAL airport unanimously.

When was BIAL not transparent? Don't forget that AAI and Karnataka government too have 13% stake in the airport and are on the board of the company. It is not like BIAL is scamming anyone. The data they initially planned on was approved by the government and matched the government's projection. Your argument is "guilty unless proven innocent". Have you been to the BIAL airport? How do you know it won't handle current capacity? All people who have been to the airport and posted here have said that it is quite big compared to HAL airport and has all adequate infrastructure. Connectivity is not BIAL's responsibility.

Similary, please be aware BIAL is meant for not some private few people but the whole public in large itself. Public cannot be inconvenienced on any front due to mistakes committed by intention or lack of foresight while signing the agreement. Hence, if protecting public interest demands modification of any agreement, it will happen so.

Everything was done in a transparent manner. When the RFPs were floated, they mentioned that existing airports will be closed down in 150km radius except for mysore airport. The RFP said that the private operators can charge UDF. It is the same in hyderabad, mumbai and Delhi too. What were all these people doing then? Sleeping? Hadn't these people heard of Devanahalli and that it was 35 kms from center of the city? Why did everyone remain silent then? These people were silent when it mattered and now shouting as though BIAL and government fooled them. You are accusing the government of not having foresight, but why didn't you or any of those clamouring for not closing down HAL airport have any foresight? Bangalore traffic is not so big as to have two airports. Even big cities like Singapore, Kaula Lampur etc have just one airport.

ajay_ijn

May 1st, 2008, 08:18 PM

In Hyderabad present traffic is 6 million only with reasonable growth and the new Rajiv Gandhi airport present capacity & future plans seemingly can handle this growth. So there is no need to think of reopening Begumpet now.

Whereas in Bangalore, the annual traffic growth is much much more than BIAL had predicted & constructed and BIAL capacity growth plans are grossly inadequate to handle this explosive growth in passenger traffic, whatever lame excuses BIAL may say now. BIAL tried to hide many such facts from the public for 3 years till 2-3 months back when they started slowly revealing the facts but too late by then. So it was BIAL itself who spoiled the concession agreement for closing HAL airport. Under these circumstances, instead of allowing BIAL to again cover up the capacity constraints under sheets as they did before, this time the public, courts and government intervened to continue HAL airport.

Even with HAL airport continuing, BIAL is still going to operate full capacity as it planned and revenues more than it estimated. All this due to the explosive growth in passenger traffic in Bangalore that has stunned all including BIAL though they never admitted so far in public.
We can handle all the traffic : BIAL's Brunner
http://www.citizenmatters.in/articles/view/144-we-can-handle-all-the-traffic-bials-brunner
Much is being said and heard about the difficulties that the new Bangalore airport (Bangalore International Airport Limited - BIAL) is likely to impose on the citizens of Bangalore. A few days ago, the High Court of Karnataka weighed in on a PIL and recommended that the government and BIAL renegotiate the original agreement, with particular reference to the steep user charges and on the option of keeping HAL airport open.

In this exclusive interview to Samuel Jacob of Citizen Matters over email, BIAL CEO Albert Brunner responds to a number of questions. Even as we publish this interview, talks between the central government (Ministry of Civil Aviation) and BIAL are in progress. The issue is likely to see more developments over the coming weeks.

Interview with BIAL CEO Albert Brunner

Is the new airport scheduled to start operations in May?

The airport is completed and we are ready for opening it at any date in May. The opening date has to be confirmed by the Ministry.

What has been the feedback from various airlines on the new Infrastructure? Are there any concerns you have had to work on?

Many people from various airlines have visited the new airport. We have received a lot of positive, even enthusiastic feedback. For all of them the infrastructure at the new airport comes as a long-sought change as it is efficient and at par with international standards.

We also received positive feedbacks from the airlines as well as the pilots on the public trial day held on March 2008. The pilots of the two aircrafts (Kingfisher and Deccan Airlines) that participated in the flight trials said that the operating surface of the runway is smooth and it has good gripping power on the aircraft. They commented that the number of exit ways to the apron will allow aircrafts to exit quickly and will bring down delays caused due to aircrafts taxing to and from the runway.

Passenger traffic for 2008-09 at Bangalore is projected at 13.2 million passengers. What would BIAL's traffic handling capacity for the same period be (in millions)?

A terminal is not designed to an annual capacity, but to a peak hour demand. Under the present traffic scenario, BIAL can easily handle the traffic for the next 2-3 years. During this time we want to realize the next expansion. Speaking of the future, the master plan of the new Bangalore International Airport has been developed to fulfil the need of an operationally efficient and passenger friendly airport for Bangalore. It ensures that the size and capacity of the airport facilities can be gradually expanded based on the passenger and cargo growth. The land at our disposal allows us to develop the airport up to a capacity of approximately 40 to 50 million passengers a year.

So what is the peak-hour demand that BIAL can cater to?

We can accommodate a peak hour demand of 2,730 passengers. Unlike HAL, the rapid exits on our runway make it possible for us to handle one flight every two minutes. HAL was designed for a traffic of 3 million and ended up handling 10 million currently. The new airport is designed for 11 million to 12 million passengers, we can easily handle the current demand. Moreover, we operate 24 hours round the clock.

Traffic projections for the BIAL airport were much lower when the deal was signed. (The current scenario is different -- there has been an explosion in traffic.) Would you agree that this forms a basis for reworking the deal so that the government lets HAL carry select traffic for a mutually agreed upon period? If not, why not?

Yes, when the project was designed initially, we had anticipated a traffic volume of approximately 5 m passengers in the first year of the operation. However, this figure was already reached by the time we started construction. But we took up this big challenge to significantly increase the project which was already under construction and did not jeopardize the initial airport opening date. Completing the redesigned project within the original time period of 30 months from the time the construction began became more challenging, but we ensured that when we opened for commercial operations, we would be equipped to handle the domestic and international air traffic from Bangalore.

Commenting on the second part of your question, Bangalore needs a single aviation platform for both domestic and international traffic, to allow seamless transfer between domestic and international flights for passengers, cargo and efficient airline operations. All successful aviation hubs in Asia (Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, Seoul) have developed out of such a single platform. Examples cited where a city has several airports (New York, London) have above 100 million passengers, compared to the 10 million of Bangalore.

BIAL is in discussions with major carriers in India to base their domestic and international operations at the airport. Once the new airport is operational, we are confident that the connections to Far East, Europe and even America will be improved. Since Bangalore has a strong business market and ideal location, the new airport will serve as a regional hub for South India attracting investments and businesses that will lead to significant growth and job creation. In the current scenario, Bangalore stands the chance to become a hub for south India as against Hyderabad and Chennai.

Last but not least it has to be mentioned that the concession agreement, which clearly stipulate the closure of the present airport, has always anticipated a growth of the new airport. The concession agreement even indicates future expansion steps. Therefore it was always clear: When the new airport opens, the old will be closed (irrespective of the passenger volume). Thereafter the new airport has to be expanded in order to always meet the demand.

Some industry and public representatives allege that the government and the BIAL have cut a great deal for the latter, and BIAL is now sitting on super profits because of which it is unwilling to renegotiate the concessional agreement. Comments?

Your question itself suggests that these are allegations. It is important to note that an international consortia was created by the Government of Karnataka and the Airport Authority of India in 1999 to build own and operate a new Greenfield international airport in Bangalore through an open bid. The aviation landscape was very different then and the investment made by the private as well as the state promoters was a significant decision and as a step forward.

As explained above, the project itself has got redesigned (scope increased by almost 75 per cent) while already in the construction stage, this led to added investments. It will be years till this huge infrastructure project breaks even. India needs such projects which are focused on long-term investments and honouring commitments made will be a step forward to encourage Public Private Partnerships.

With the change in scope of design, what has the project cost come to?

From the initial Rs.1,400 cr, it went up to Rs.2,450 cr. Additionally there has been an investment of another Rs.1,000 cr from the concessionaires in cargo, catering and fuel.

When do you plan to have a second runway up? Are there legal impediments to this (the Air Force Base issue) that may not be totally in BIAL's hands?

Keeping in mind the current traffic growth, the second runway will be required in the next 3 to 5 years. BIAL is already working on the next phase of this development. The runways of the air base at Yelahanka and those of our airport are absolutely parallel. Nevertheless the air traffic management will have to be coordinated. For this reason, Indian Air Force had worked out a so called Integrated Airspace Management Plan which was the basis for its NOC (non objective certificate) for our project.

A Parliamentary standing committee has criticised the user fees for BIAL.

The Concession Agreement specifies that BIAL will be allowed to levy UDF from embarking domestic and international passengers for the provision of passenger amenities, services and facilities. The UDF will be used for the development, management, maintenance and operation of the airport. UDF is a global norm. IATA has confirmed in writing after consultation that it is in agreement with BIAL’s proposed tariff set up. This issue is currently under discussion with the Ministry of Civil Aviation and we await confirmation regarding the same.

It has to be noted that even with the envisaged user development fees, BIAL will face losses in the first few years. Thereafter, before we break even, we have to invest again in the next expansion. The UDF is needed for sustaining a reasonable return on investment and with this to give the investors the confidence for future project investments.

Seventy per cent of India lives in rural areas. People who fly are a small percentage. Why should the public at large be asked to pay for the expansion. People who use the airport should pay for it.

If you head for renegotiation of the concession agreement, would BIAL seek compensation?

You will appreciate that this question is speculative and hence we will not be able to answer it.

Is there a consultation process among the partners in the BIAL consortium? When was the last meeting among the partners?

Yes, regular meetings are held with the Board of Directors of BIAL. The last meeting was held in the last week of February 2008.

What did you like most about working on this project in India? Has it been a good, bad or ugly experience so far?

I have to say that it has not been that easy. Building a new private greenfield airport in India is much more than a construction project, it means setting up an unprecedented legal framework, coping with huge time pressure, recruiting and training personnel form a large talent pool with limited experience in airport management. It also requires selection of partners like caterers, ground handlers and retailers etc. who are willing and are able to provide service according to the highest international standards. It is not possible to realize such a project under the given time constraints without the full dedication of thousands of people involved (in the offices and at site) and without support from various authorities (Concluded).

mpvp

May 2nd, 2008, 07:19 AM

Don't forget that AAI and Karnataka government too have 13% stake in the airport and are on the board of the company. It is not like BIAL is scamming anyone. Connectivity is not BIAL's responsibility.

You are contradicting yourself. You say Governmnt holds 13% stake in BIAL again you say BIAL not responsible for connectivity problems now. Why didnot BIAL and its stake holder government work together to get good connectivity for past 3 years?

Even big cities like Singapore, Kaula Lampur etc have just one airport.

You are talking about island and small countries. Instead try to compare with countries similar in size with India lika Brasil where they have two airports in many cities.

zenith_suv

May 2nd, 2008, 08:07 AM

Forget the small countries like Singapore and Malaysia , take the city of Machester as an Example - that airport has 5 vast Terminals and yet there is talk of another airport there , they don't have massive traffic figures and neither are the demand estimates expected to explode but convenience of the public is still paramount in the UK , why not India.

mailabode

May 2nd, 2008, 08:29 AM

mailabode

May 2nd, 2008, 08:38 AM

mohan123

May 2nd, 2008, 04:53 PM

The cost of the BIAL Is about 1 billion dollars.
If the govt can forgive 15 billion dollars for the farmers, Come up with about 1.5 billion dollars for BIAL & buy it.
Make money or loose money.
Do not charge UDF.
Do not close HAL.
Do what ever you want.

But remember when you sign a contract with International companies .
if you dont honor the contract you loose in the long run e:bash:ven though you may gain in the short run.

In other words .you are teaching Indian citizens,do not bother about Contracts.
You are telling them do not pay the banks because you atre in trouble.
Learn some code of conducts in the international forum.
mohan
:cheers:

Prakash KR

May 2nd, 2008, 05:07 PM

HAL and BIAL both have only one runway, so the number of peak hour slots remain the same :bash:

Exactly that is what is the weakness of BIAL. BIAL should have started with 2 runways for the kind of passenger traffic growth in Bangalore for handling smoothly and comfortably. With just one runway at BIAL and only 40% airspace available at its hand, the flights are going to circle around Bangalore for hours before touching down during peak time.

To prevent peak hour jam at BIAL, HAL airport is badly needed to act as the second runway for comfortable handling of the growing Bangalore passenger traffic.

man, our country sux ... first it was Dabhol and now its BIAL ...

Dabhol project..you mean Enron.. Enron tried to sell electricity at way higher prices in Maharashtra compared to other local sources. So, tell us Who cheated whom there? And for your information, Enron was eventually blacklisted and its Chairman court trialled and dismissed in its own home country USA for its "well known" malpractices.

ravibg

May 2nd, 2008, 05:56 PM

Why are people clamouring for 2nd runway so soon? Even london's gatwick airport which handles many times the traffic of bangalore has just one runway and it is doing fine. It is in top 25 airports of the world, and we can agree that Bangalore isn't even in top 100.

London Gatwick Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gatwick_Airport)

Gatwick Airport (IATA: LGW, ICAO: EGKK) is London's second largest airport and the second busiest airport in the United Kingdom after Heathrow. It is also the world's busiest single runway airport, and the world's 22nd busiest airport in terms of passengers per year (7th in terms of international passengers). It is located in Crawley, West Sussex (originally Charlwood, Surrey) 5 km (3 miles) north of the town centre, 46 km (28 miles) south of London and 40 km (25 miles) north of Brighton.

Singapore, Kaula Lampur etc have much more passengers flying out of its airport than bangalore will have over the next five to ten years. And they are doing fine with one airport. Singapore handled 36 million passengers in 2007 and KLIA handled 26 million in 2006. The land available with BIAL is similiar to that of Changi airport. As the traffic increases, BIAL is well prepared to expand and their terminals too are built such that it supports future expansion, provided that the government gives them a chance to and people who haven't even been to airport stop throwing bricks at it.

It is the responsibility of the state government to come up with connectivity, not BIAL. Whether it is HAL airport or BIAL, state govt and city corporations need to work on connectivity issues. The airport operator can provide land at the airport side, thats all. Providing connectivity isn't a simple thing, the state government has to purchase land for building new roads or train tracks etc and it is not the mandate for international airport operator.

I don't know on what basis people here are arguing that BIAL is insufficient or is not better than HAL. Except for connectivity which is not BIAL's responsibility, BIAL is better than HAL in all aspects. It is capable of future expansion, and can be the pride of Bangalore. At least wait till the airport opens and see for yourself before making unsubstantiated comments.

world1

May 2nd, 2008, 06:04 PM

Is this airport 2 billion dollars....wow..then i was expecting much bigger airport.........

mohan123

May 2nd, 2008, 06:17 PM

Indian Govt & Karnataka govt are responsible for the connectivity &
Infrastructure.
BIAL is part of the solution for INdian Infrastructure problems.

Indian Govt throwing bricks at the BIAL with some Idiot groups of people,
after signing the contract in DAY LIGHT about 5 years back.

BIAL should sue the Indian Govt in the supreme court & international courts & recover 2 times the money they have invested.
Then leave India.
International investment banks will review BIAL experience in India before signing any Contract with Indian Govt.

CORRUPT & illiterate Indian Administration!!!!!!!!!!!!:bash:

Desidude

May 2nd, 2008, 08:03 PM

Is this airport 2 billion dollars....wow..then i was expecting much bigger airport.........

which Airport are you referring to about being $2 billion? hope not BIAL.......
cos' both HIAL & BIAL cost almost the same amount of money ($600 mil).....

mpvp

May 3rd, 2008, 05:03 AM

Why are people clamouring for 2nd runway so soon? Even london's gatwick airport which handles many times the traffic of bangalore has just one runway and it is doing fine. It is in top 25 airports of the world, and we can agree that Bangalore isn't even in top 100.

London has many airports in the city and its vicinity. Hence there may not be enough interest to increase runway in any one particular airport in the city. Moreover the flight schedules maybe more or less evenly distributed throughout the day and the airports.

Whereas in Bangalore domestic traffic peaks morning/evening hours and international traffic peaks during midnight. Not many of the domestic travellers would like to travel outside peak hours. Single runway was one of the major bottleneck for handling additional flights in HAL airport during peak hours. The same problem is going to repeat at BIAL airport once operational and probably even worse due to only 40% air traffic space at BIAL. Thus, BIAL is handicapped with single runway and by all means peak hour traffic is going to be a big mess with innumerate delays and so forth. Thus, HAL airport will come in handy here with its fantastic B747 capable runway and aid tremendously in handling more peak hour flights than what Bangalore is currently handling now.

It is the responsibility of the state government to come up with connectivity, not BIAL.

Why should public be penalised for the lapses of BIAL or Government?
Why do you want public to take the beating for all the mistakes of BIAL or government? After all the same public is going to patronise BIAL and the roads to BIAL, they should be treated with dignity.

I don't know on what basis people here are arguing that BIAL is insufficient or is not better than HAL.

Nobody including me is questioning whether BIAL better than HAL. BIAL is
of course better than HAL airport in terms of terminal area, parking areas, future expansion land availability etc..The issue here is passenger traffic grew much more than BIAL expected and its present infrastructure with its expansion plans maynot be enough to meet the future growth in Bangalore passenger traffic as it had anticipated during agreement. This is where HAL airport with its reasonably good infrastructure comes in handy as the second airport of Bangalore.

ravibg

May 3rd, 2008, 07:08 AM

mpvp

May 3rd, 2008, 07:49 AM

I have travelled through HAL airport a lot, and the international flights scheduled during night is hardly 10 from 10pm to 7pm. You have flights of TG, SQ, MH, EK, LH, AF, AI and BA. That is 8 flights in 9 hours. Of these, only BA departs at 6:45 ( or 7:45 depending on whether it is daylight savings time in UK). That is the peak hour traffic in HAL today.

You are talking about International flights which may not be a problem now. What about domestic flights during peak hour?

ravibg

May 3rd, 2008, 08:00 AM

On the domestic end too, BIAL can handle more than twice HAL's capacity during peak hour when it opens. BIAL's current capacity is more than HAL's capacity and can easily handle traffic for next few years. And BIAL is already drawing up plans for the next stage. Look at Brunner's interview above. And he isn't lying or covering up, for both State govt and AAI are on its board.

mailabode

May 3rd, 2008, 08:12 AM

mpvp, did you even read Brunner's interview above where he said that they can handle twice the flights that HAL airport can?

Gatwick London airport has a curfew in the night, they cannot operate between 12 am and 6:30pm. Note the number of flights they handle per day. And it doesn't matter how many airports that city has, this airport is handling large number of flights every day and the average flights handled per hour in London Gatwick is more than the peak traffic that will be handled by BIAL for next few years.

----------------- --------------------
----------------- --------------------
Another major reason for ATC congestion is due to lack of proper training and equipment for our ATCs. Even in Mumbai and Delhi, the number of flights handled per hour is less than the peak handled in other developed countries.

What Zenith_SUV did not say is - Manchester handles 22.5 million passengers per annum and increasing and is the 22nd busiest airport in the world and 4th busiest in the UK. And it was constructed long long ago with the money of the empire and expanded the same way(has features that are unique). Its being expanded and its old terminals are being completely demolished(and not continued like HAL)due to security convcerns. In other words the modernization involves shutting down of very old structures and building entirely new ones(specially commercial ones) - a process of modern development. Gatwick airport is the largest single runway airport in the world- it handles 35 million passengers per annum. Different airports are planned in different styles- and comparing them without any perespective is nothing more than rubbish. These people dont know what they are talking about - they arent prepared to run the airport themselves(personally)- they wont alow the airport operators to run the airport according to their own plans either- typical communist nonsense- and everything in our country must be run on their quixotic nonsense?. Ever heard of projects happenning in Kerala or Bengal? - i have only heard of most private industries having been forced to shut down due to communism in the past in these 2 states due to economically unviable demands in the name of worker conveninece- in other words the basic assumption was pay more salaries more than what you generate - industries which had made massive investments.

HIAL thankfully did not have all the political problems BIAL had and HIAL still doesnt have those problems and BIAL continues to have them.

Since MPVP has pledged that he would permit anything that makes convenience for the people - when the govt wants the land of his house to build a public road or to expand the existing road- he should be willing to give it up without protest and go wherever they relocate him(example Whitefield) in the interest of greater public conveninece.

mailabode

May 3rd, 2008, 09:08 AM

mpvp

May 3rd, 2008, 10:18 AM

On the domestic end too, BIAL can handle more than twice HAL's capacity during peak hour when it opens. BIAL's current capacity is more than HAL's capacity and can easily handle traffic for next few years.

As you say, BIAL terminal area may be able to handle double the capacity as that of HAL airport, but that is not enough; your runway has to allow so many flights to land & takeoff in such a short span of peak hour time. So, what about the capacity in BIAL after taking into account single runway and reduced airspace BIAL is going to live with?

Experts say that Capacity handling of any airport is determined by the capacity of each and every piece of airport infrastructure that includes terminal capability, ATC, runways, parking etc. and bottleneck in any one of the areas can cause delays and slowdown of flight turnaround time.

The question is whether BIAL (with single runway like HAL) can handle peak hour traffic any better than the HAL airport with the high growth of passenger traffic seen now..

mpvp

May 3rd, 2008, 10:31 AM

Since MPVP has pledged that he would permit anything that makes convenience for the people - when the govt wants the land of his house to build a public road or to expand the existing road- he should be willing to give it up without protest and go wherever they relocate him(example Whitefield) in the interest of greater public conveninece.

Nobody here is against BIAL or any new private airports. Public is only against the unwanted insistence by BIAL that the public sector HAL airport has to be "SHUT DOWN" for it to earn higher revenues at the cost of public convenience.

Please think about Indian Railways which is one of the largest public sector organisation in the world, provides subsidy to passenger fares and still make profits. But it is people like you who promote that all public sector outfits are cheap and useless and needs to be closed. I dont agree with that. What is needed is co-existence of public and private sector units in India for a healthy competition in the long run.

ravibg

May 3rd, 2008, 05:54 PM

As you say, BIAL terminal area may be able to handle double the capacity as that of HAL airport, but that is not enough; your runway has to allow so many flights to land & takeoff in such a short span of peak hour time. So, what about the capacity in BIAL after taking into account single runway and reduced airspace BIAL is going to live with?
...
The question is whether BIAL (with single runway like HAL) can handle peak hour traffic any better than the HAL airport with the high growth of passenger traffic seen now..

MPVP, did you read Brunner's interview and the posts I made above about Gatwick airport able to handle large number of flights with single runway? BIAL has rapid exitways on its runways, and so can clear the runway as soon as the aircraft lands. Gatwick operates more number of flights per day now on its single runway than BIAL can hope to over next 3-4 years. BIAL can easily handle twice HAL's traffic with its single runway NOW.

mailabode

May 3rd, 2008, 11:38 PM

indeglow1

May 4th, 2008, 01:40 AM

Please think about Indian Railways which is one of the largest public sector organisation in the world, provides subsidy to passenger fares and still make profits. But it is people like you who promote that all public sector outfits are cheap and useless and needs to be closed. I dont agree with that. What is needed is co-existence of public and private sector units in India for a healthy competition in the long run.

Government can run services they are subsidizing if they can efficiently do so but not any for-profit companies- period.These companies have proven to be ineffective,corruption ridden and serve only those lazy employees that work for them.

Nag123

May 4th, 2008, 05:39 AM

HI All,

I have beeen observing this forum for last few months. TOI & other surveys talks of time taken from from Ecity to new BIAL. How many people from Ecity directly travel to Airport? (atleast all internation travelers go from thier home to airport not from Ecity)

Most of people think of Airport will be used by people who stay in Koramanagala/ Airport Road/ Indiranagar/ SJP ring road/ECity especially IT people. What about Bangaloreans who stays in North / West Bangalore. Rajaji Nanagr/ Vijaya Nagar/ malleswaram/ Basaveshwarnagar/ Raja Rajeswari Nagar? For them going to BIAL is near (in terms of time, may not be distance).

Who is this BT Lady / TOI Winner is tell Bangaloreans to use old HAL Airport (Rail station?) not the new one?

Regards

Prakash KR

May 4th, 2008, 08:22 AM

[QUOTE=ravibg;20237175 Bangalore traffic is not so big as to have two airports. Even big cities like Singapore, Kaula Lampur etc have just one airport.[/QUOTE]

For your information, all major airports in the world have two or more parallel runways. Singapore and Kuala Lumpur are major airports in Asia with TWO PARALLEL RUNWAYS.

Mumbai and Delhi airports are the busiest airports in India. Delhi has a main runway and an additional runway but due to security issues only limited operation allowed. Mumbai has a main runway and an additional cross runway. Mumbai presently handles 630 flights on average per day with its single runway which translates to 30 flights per hour including take off and landing. Additional flights are being not allowed at these airports due to congestions.

Please read following report below:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Air traffic Congestion: New flight freeze for the summer

New flights during peak hours between Mumbai and Delhi will not be allowed due to air traffic congestion.
BY OUR AVIATION CORRESPONDENT

March 21, 2007: Come summer, and the Delhi and Mumbai airports will see no fresh activity for a seven-month period. The ban would apply to any new flight that an airline wants to operate during the peak hours, according to report.

With the government decided to freeze at the existing levels the number of flights that can be operated by domestic airlines from these two airports during the forthcoming summer season, the activity at these two busy airplane pads are to be frozen.

Officials are of the opinion that the Delhi and Mumbai airports cannot handle more than 30 flights an hour.

Congestion has become a recurring headache for authorities and a solution being mooted is to allow Delhi airport to increase to four hours in the morning the time during which simultaneous use of both runways would be permitted. Meanwhile, the Delhi International Airport Ltd has plans to allow use of simultaneous runway during the evening hours.

Far off in Mumbai, the airport operator has lined up measures to allow the use of the cross runway. This when implemented is likely to aid in easing the problems faced by airlines while flying from and to the city.

More details at
http://www.dancewithshadows.com/flights/airport-congestion.asp
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you now get a picture of how Mumbai airport with the entire airspace at its discretion is struggling to handle 630 flights daily (i.e. 30 flights an hour) which seems to be the limit for a single runway under Indian conditions.

Now please read another report below on HAL airport:
-------------------------------------------------------
THE HINDU

Airport can't take more flights: HAL

Staff Reporter
Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006

Bangalore: Managing Director of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) A.K. Saxena said here on Monday that airlines had been informed that the airport could not handle any more flights.

HAL and AAI recently worked out a Rs. 50-crore project to improve the airport infrastructure and modernise the Air Traffic Control (ATC).

With only one runway, the airport continues to feel the pinch. The huge increase in the number of flights by different airlines, State-owned and private carriers, means there is one landing or take-off every two minutes during peak time.

More details at
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/04/25/stories/2006042520460100.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hope it is clear now to you. With a single runway and full airpace at its disposal, Mumbai is able to handle only 630 flights per day on average and increasing flights especially during peak time is seen impossible. And back here HAL airport is already on that limit during peak hours with an aircraft landing or taking off almost every 2 minutes. HAL has clearly indicated the root cause for not being able to add further flights during peak hours is its single runway.

Now, it is still wierd when some people stubbornly say that BIAL with single runway and only 40% airspace available at its hands, can show magic in handling more flights during peak time than HAL.

mailabode

May 4th, 2008, 08:40 AM

ullasavadan

May 4th, 2008, 10:05 AM

For your information, all major airports in the world have two or more parallel runways. Singapore and Kuala Lumpur are major airports in Asia with TWO PARALLEL RUNWAYS.

Mumbai and Delhi airports are the busiest airports in India. Delhi has a main runway and an additional runway but due to security issues only limited operation allowed. Mumbai has a main runway and an additional cross runway. Mumbai presently handles 630 flights on average per day with its single runway which translates to 30 flights per hour including take off and landing. Additional flights are being not allowed at these airports due to congestions.

Please read following report below:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Air traffic Congestion: New flight freeze for the summer

New flights during peak hours between Mumbai and Delhi will not be allowed due to air traffic congestion.
BY OUR AVIATION CORRESPONDENT

March 21, 2007: Come summer, and the Delhi and Mumbai airports will see no fresh activity for a seven-month period. The ban would apply to any new flight that an airline wants to operate during the peak hours, according to report.

With the government decided to freeze at the existing levels the number of flights that can be operated by domestic airlines from these two airports during the forthcoming summer season, the activity at these two busy airplane pads are to be frozen.

Officials are of the opinion that the Delhi and Mumbai airports cannot handle more than 30 flights an hour.

Congestion has become a recurring headache for authorities and a solution being mooted is to allow Delhi airport to increase to four hours in the morning the time during which simultaneous use of both runways would be permitted. Meanwhile, the Delhi International Airport Ltd has plans to allow use of simultaneous runway during the evening hours.

Far off in Mumbai, the airport operator has lined up measures to allow the use of the cross runway. This when implemented is likely to aid in easing the problems faced by airlines while flying from and to the city.

More details at
http://www.dancewithshadows.com/flights/airport-congestion.asp
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you now get a picture of how Mumbai airport with the entire airspace at its discretion is struggling to handle 630 flights daily (i.e. 30 flights an hour) which seems to be the limit for a single runway under Indian conditions.

Now please read another report below on HAL airport:
-------------------------------------------------------
THE HINDU

Airport can't take more flights: HAL

Staff Reporter
Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006

Bangalore: Managing Director of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) A.K. Saxena said here on Monday that airlines had been informed that the airport could not handle any more flights.

HAL and AAI recently worked out a Rs. 50-crore project to improve the airport infrastructure and modernise the Air Traffic Control (ATC).

With only one runway, the airport continues to feel the pinch. The huge increase in the number of flights by different airlines, State-owned and private carriers, means there is one landing or take-off every two minutes during peak time.

More details at
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/04/25/stories/2006042520460100.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hope it is clear now to you. With a single runway and full airpace at its disposal, Mumbai is able to handle only 630 flights per day on average and increasing flights especially during peak time is seen impossible. And back here HAL airport is already on that limit during peak hours with an aircraft landing or taking off almost every 2 minutes. HAL has clearly indicated the root cause for not being able to add further flights during peak hours is its single runway.

Now, it is still wierd when some people stubbornly say that BIAL with single runway and only 40% airspace available at its hands, can show magic in handling more flights during peak time than HAL.

I am sure if HAL had rapid exit ways similar to BIAL, then it would have been able to handle more flights and not declare that it cannot handle any more. Here the fact is not to have redundant runways but effective usage of a single runway with rapid exitway.

Yes, some of the big airports might be having two runways but I am sure their passenger output would be more than 12 million which is the threshold BIAL is working on. Moreover, BIAL is also investing on second runway as part of its next phase.

The importance given by BIAL is to have an airport which can handle the current traffic in the shortes possible time and expand based on requirements through its modular design. And I am pretty sure they have achieved it. And I am sure that I am not the only person who believes that but most of us. Only a handful are trying to drag their feet and provide illogical arguments.

Prakash KR

May 4th, 2008, 10:36 AM

Yes, some of the big airports might be having two runways but I am sure their passenger output would be more than 12 million which is the threshold BIAL is working on. Moreover, BIAL is also investing on second runway as part of its next phase.

Exactly, two runways needed for any major airport worth its salt.

Please remember BIAL themselves were telling that its capacity is 12 million pax (though other sources say only 9million pax) against projected traffic of 13.2million in Bangalore for 2008-09. A new runway at Bangalore will take many more years to complete( not before 2011 according to unofficial sources) by then traffic would have risen manyfold. That means there will be always more demand for flights than supply from BIAL and no new flights in BIAL during peak hours due to its single runway handicap from DAY ONE.

Also with Yelahanka base only 3km away from existing BIAL runway, there is another problem in that the huge Rs2000 crore Yelahanka airbase and its runway have to be shifted somewhere else to allow BIAL to build its second runway. Thanks to some of our local politicians and their cronies, who have lined up their pockets very well on choosing Devanahalli as the site for BIAL and also have conveniently left the second runway problems on BIAL and defence shoulders to fight with. All this points to only further delays for BIAL on its second runway.

BIAL is handicapped by its single runway to handle additional flights during peak hours now and in future.

The importance given by BIAL is to have an airport which can handle the current traffic in the shortes possible time and expand based on requirements through its modular design. .

Yes, by all means let BIAL expand in phases in future. But the fact is that BIAL alone cannot handle the existing and growing future traffic with its limited infrastructure ( planned at the time of agreement many years back with under estimated passenger traffic projections) especially during peak hours.

It is very clear that BIAL cannot enforce closing down HAL airport due to its own mistakes and limitations of its airport. I donot want to go any further in this cause and rest my case here.

ullasavadan

May 4th, 2008, 01:09 PM

Who is to be blamed for the delay in ensuring connectivity to Devanahalli airport? The blame game is on between bureaucrats and the public over the government's failure in providing connectivity to the airport.

Participating in a panel discussion, "Devana Yelli', organized by Bangalore Mirror on connectivity to the airport, joint secretary, ministry of civil aviation, K N Srivastava, felt the problem of connectivity is in itself a manifestation of many other things.

"The fault is not just with providing connectivity, but with the city itself as some of the connectivity projects died even before they were commissioned for various reasons. For instance, rail connectivity planned between Cantonment and Yelahanka did not take off due to lack of support from the railways and government," he said.

Had the work on connectivity projects been done on schedule or simultaneously with Devanahalli airport works, connectivity wouldn't have been an issue at all, he pointed out.

However, principal secretary, infrastructure, V P Baligar, sounded confident: "Connectivity should be solved before commissioning of Devanahalli airport by developing Bellary Road (NH-7) and constructing an elevated road from Hebbal to Yelahanka."

Actually, connectivity to the airport should be started simultaneously, it was suggested. Connectivity projects cost 200 times more than the actual project.

Taking a leaf out of the Bangalore and Hyderabad airport controversies, the Centre had decided to take up both the connectivity issue and airport works simultaneously in future projects. In this context, connectivity and work on the airport in Delhi had been initiated simultaneously.

Work on rail connectivity to Delhi airport is also on in full swing and 60% of the work has been completed.

"A high-power committee under the Union Planning Commission has been set up to look into these aspects at the national level. The committee has identified 10 top airports, and Bangalore is one of them. A restriction on operating an airport within the radius of 150 km from Bangalore International Airport (BIA) needs to be changed and a proposal has already been sent to the Planning Commission. The BIA will bring in unprecedented changes within 90-km radius of the area, initiating many commercial and economic activities,” Srivastava said.

Creation of a multi-mode transport from the periphery is necessary, he added.

Speaking on the connectivity issue, V P Baligar said the government always rises to the occasion, like during floods and drought. Similarly, connectivity via Bellary Road would be ready by the end of May 29.

"This time, the exam will be passed with a first class if not with distinction. We have kept some of our infrastructure like Volvo buses ready. Connectivity to Devanahalli has been improving with every passing day. The trumpet interchange has been completed in a record time of eight months," he added.

The panel discussion featured Bangalore Mirror Editor K R Sreenivas, MD of NICE Ashok Kheny, Indira Prem Menon, president and CEO, Lakshmanan Isola Pvt Ltd, Wing Commander Rakesh Sharma, governor's adviser P K H Tharakan. Brand consultant Harish Bijoor moderated the programme.

mailabode

May 4th, 2008, 02:13 PM

Exactly, two runways needed for any major airport worth its salt.

It is very clear that BIAL cannot enforce closing down HAL airport due to its own mistakes and limitations of its airport. I donot want to go any further in this cause and rest my case here.

"Worth its salt" !!! - passionate bravado like this, one liners or quips are not THE basis on which a business enity should run to be successful. Bravado of this sort happens but only as ornamentation.

mpvp

May 5th, 2008, 04:47 AM

He says each and every piece of infrastructure should be able to handle a specific load - i am sure MPVP has no idea about
[/B]

If you speak about specifics he jumps to generals- if you talk about generals he jumps to an irrelevant specific - if you persue him to that specific he slithers away and again goes back to general talk. Simply put absolutely no substance- and if you tell this to him he would come up with a circular argument.

Such people should be asked to fall in line with everybody else or feel free to get out without disturbing the convenience of 99 percent of the passengers - we must learn to be strict about this.

It seems you have no idea about airport at all and your mails are indicative of long unwanted boring speeches like any third rate neta gives to the crowd!!!
Just try to understand the differences between airport and bus stand and that aeroplanes cannot go by road but by air and they cannot be stopped in between and controlled by air traffic controllers etcc... Till then talking to you is like telling wise ideas to a donkey... I would instead suggest you spend more time in understanding airports worldwide and then come back after some time instead of trying to force your stupid opinions through others throat.

mpvp

May 5th, 2008, 04:59 AM

Most of people think of Airport will be used by people who stay in Koramanagala/ Airport Road/ Indiranagar/ SJP ring road/ECity especially IT people.

Yes, all the people residing in these areas and from more areas want HAL airport to continue. They have been using this airport for decades and their convenience is equally important. To deny them something which they have been enjoying for decades without a justifying and convincing reason is not acceptable.

What about Bangaloreans who stays in North / West Bangalore. Rajaji Nanagr/ Vijaya Nagar/ malleswaram/ Basaveshwarnagar/ Raja Rajeswari Nagar? For them going to BIAL is near (in terms of time, may not be distance).

I dont think for all the areas mentioned by you BIAL is closer than HAL. Bellary road is congested in many sections and with opening of BIAL, chances of getting worse on the roads are more. Mind you, BIAL is in Devanahalli 40km away and not in Bangalore whereas HAL airport is hardly less than 10km from Vidhana Soudha. Sure, many residents of North and West Bangalore if they find BIAL more convenient, they can very well use BIAL instead of HAL.

The bottomline is the residents of North, west, east or South Bangalore should not be inconvenienced for any reason whatsoever and also should not be denied existing benefits they enjoy.

sammyk

May 5th, 2008, 07:43 AM

vikramv1

May 5th, 2008, 08:01 AM

Check this out on the opening of the new airport

http://airliners1.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/new-bangalore-airport-to-be-inaugurated-in-the-third-week-of-may/

vikramv1

May 5th, 2008, 10:18 AM

I have seen a new blog on the Indian aviation scene at http://aviationindia.wordpress.com/. Hope this is a good site. I will check this site out often. Its very new....
The other one I use is http://airliners1.wordpress.com/. Its a lot older and has huge news articles on the world aviation. Both look really good.

barrykul

May 5th, 2008, 07:17 PM

The bottomline is the residents of North, west, east or South Bangalore should not be inconvenienced for any reason whatsoever and also should not be denied existing benefits they enjoy.

Another grand poohbah edict/stmt by you. Who are these inconvenienced folks, just you? A lot of air travelling people are enlightened folks who travel the world. These distances (25miles/40km) are nothing in the scheme of things. People can afford luxury taxis/cars to ferry them back and forth. What is lacking at HAL airport is basics something you conveniently brush aside.

Here is an assessment of a recent traveller to Bluru's HAL.

A shocking disaster. The international terminal is meant for handling like one or two midsize aircraft. At 4 AM our jumbo from heathrow landed. So did a flight from Sharjah. The imigration are fairly efficient, but dealing with over 600 passengers, is a difficult task, in a such a small place.

Now comes the worst part, the bagage. The belt is agian designed for 1-2 737's. so the belt system is overhvelmed, and suitcaes start piling up, until it all stops. The building is a terrible disaster. Does not look or feel like an airport. I would rather compare it to a bus stand in Nairobi. This is particularly a bad thing, as the construction is less then 10 years old.

mohan123

May 5th, 2008, 09:23 PM

I felt the same way since past 28 years.
HAL = disorganized Grey Hound Bus station in USA.
We do not have pride in telling the world that we have a decent airport.
But we want all the other credentials.
Bangalore = silicon valley of india = garden city.
IT industry has brought in more revenue to the state & central Govt than any other industry in the country.
We are not begging for Foreign Exchange since past 15 years.
In 1991 we were not having enough Forein Exchange to buy Petrol.
Narasimha Rao with Manmohan sigh As a Finance minister changed the Course of our Contry.

we need to move beyond the petty arguments in sync with the demand.
You have to pay to get better service.

I always felt like going to Under developed African Nation when I landed in Bombay or Bangalore 10 years back.
No AC in the Airport.
U have to take a bus to Catch 737.
Climb all the steps.
I took my sick father in an ambulance to the HAL airport in 1995 to travel to Bombay for medical treatment.
He was on a stretcher.We have to use cargo lifts to put him on the Plane.
Do not through any more bricks at the BIAL.
Devegowda as a PM & Aziz sait as an aviation minister did nothing to the state.

Open BIAL & improve it instead of pouring more money in to HAL.
BIAL improvement does not happen if they do not make money.
Where were all these People when they signed the Contract 3 years back?
People who can not afford UDF should not travel by AIR.
They should use subsidized Trains or Buses.
Decent Airport to BANGALORE is long Overdue.
:bash:

barrykul

May 5th, 2008, 11:46 PM

Tender for BIAL rail link likely after polls (http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/May62008/city2008050666520.asp)

There's finally some good news on the proposed high speed rail link to Bengaluru International Airport (BIA) at Devanahalli...

The State Government that had established a SPV (Special Purpose Vehicle), the ‘Bangalore Airport Rail Link Limited (BARLL), for implementation of the Rs 3,796 crore project on a Build, Operate and Transfer (BOT) model with private participation, is all ready to call for an Expression of Interest (Tender), once the elections are over.

Sources told Deccan Herald that with the electoral process on, the project has been kept on hold. “We are waiting for elections to get over. All documents pertaining to the floating of the global tenders are ready. It will be on the list of infrastructure projects to be accorded priority when a new government is formed,” added government sources.

It may be recalled that the state executive committee had cleared the project, based on the advice of Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC), the consultant for the project that recommended the BOT model with equity participation from the state and centre. The BIA had also agreed to invest 10 per cent in the project.

However, the project faced hurdles after the project was re-designed to avoid it coming in the way of the six-lane elevated road project of the NHAI (National Highway Authority of India). It was sorted out and decided that the high speed train will traverse on the left side of NH 7, Bellary Road from Hebbal onwards.

The project promoter, who will be selected after global tender is floated, is expected to commence work in November this year.

mpvp

May 6th, 2008, 05:06 AM

SC directs govt to consider closure of HAL airport

The Supreme Court today directed the Union government to consider the issue of closure of the HAL Bangalore International Airport, taking into account the pros and cons of the matter and to act according to law.
Earlier senior counsel appearing for the petitioner contended that the government should not feel that it is hopelessly bound by the terms of the contract with private players and cannot act in public interest.
He also contended that the settled law of the land is that statutory powers cannot be curtailed by a contract and the Union government has the power to overule the private players not withstanding any agreement or contract.

The apex court also directed that the Union government shall place before the Karnataka High Court its decision taken in the matter.

Additional Solicitor General told the Court, "the government is neither hopeless nor helpless in dealing with the matter and shall take into consideration all the pros and cons of the matter and act in larger public interest in accordance with law as the government is not supposed to act illegally."

The High Court shall hear the matter on merits.
UNI

Link at
http://www.indlaw.com/search/news/default.aspx?e3504f7b-a03d-45b0-ab47-e18fa1da08a6

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Great news !! The highest court of the land supreme court also have re-iterated the direction by Karnataka High court to Government to re-consider HAL airport. It is truly a big relief for the citizens of Bangalore as the courts have now come to rescue of the public.

mpvp

May 6th, 2008, 05:13 AM

40km?

Is this what this entire argument is about? A measly 25 miles? This warrants an adequate highway from the city to the airport, not the retaining of the current airport.

New airports are typically built on the outskirts of a city and eventually the city grows around them.

Yes, dear for the same reason that citizens in Houston and Dallas of USA fought for retaining their city airports and won eventually. In Houston, even with a good expressway to reach the international airport at outskirts in 45 minutes, citizens were angered and they fought to retain the city airport which they won.

In Bangalore, travelling 40 km by shoddy roads to BIAL taking 2-3hours for travelling a 1 hour short haul flight is ridiculous to most of people except for some die-hards like you who want to shut down HAL airport by any means.

KB335ci

May 6th, 2008, 05:16 AM

FOR THE Nth TIME, M8, IT DOESN'T TAKE 2 - 3 HOURS TO GET TO BIAL, unless of course you're driving from a 100 kilometres away!

mpvp

May 6th, 2008, 05:19 AM

Another grand poohbah edict/stmt by you. Who are these inconvenienced folks, just you? A lot of air travelling people are enlightened folks who travel the world. These distances (25miles/40km) are nothing in the scheme of things. People can afford luxury taxis/cars to ferry them back and forth.

Distances may be nothing but time taken to travel by Bangalore roads is big pain, considering the road conditions. Imagine a person wanting to take a short haul flight by low cost carrier with an air ticket for Rs 1500/- and air travel time of only 1 hour will be forced to spend Rs 1000/- for taxi to BIAL and average 2-3 hours by road to BIAL. Who is BIAL or you or anybody to force public to go through such a pain when HAL airport is present right inside the city?

KB335ci

May 6th, 2008, 05:27 AM

mpvp

May 6th, 2008, 05:30 AM

FOR THE Nth TIME, M8, IT DOESN'T TAKE 2 - 3 HOURS TO GET TO BIAL, unless of course you're driving from a 100 kilometres away!

Dear, driving now through bellary road to BIAL as you think may be only a dream shortlived. Once BIAL is up and running, and all the road traffic starts flowing through the narrow bellary road/NH7 to BIAL, it will become another kempegowda road type of traffic nightmare with vehicles crawling like tortoises. Then even 3 hours may seem more like on the down side. Instead of covering up government's and BIAL's failure to atleast put a good expressway from city to BIAL and metro link by now, it is a shame that you are asking the public to suffer.

KB335ci

May 6th, 2008, 05:33 AM

OH MAN, please don't call me "Dear". Thanks.
I'm only asking the public that can't afford it, to suffer...LOL

_________________________________________________
That was a joke, I swear it! LOL

mpvp

May 6th, 2008, 05:38 AM

Typically, LCCs operate from airports that are located a good distance away from major inner-city/ primary airports. The only cost effective solution for passengers who don't wish to cab it, would be to introduce a high-speed rail connection to Devanahalli, from the city centre, at the earliest. That'll solve your problem, mpvp. Leave the "die-hards" alone...they're right.

I know, you know and everybody knows that there is no high speed forget it even a sadha rail link to BIAL from city; even if such high speed link were to happen, the way our system works, I would expect it mostly around my grand grand son's wedding time.

And who are you to decide that LCC travellers from Banglore city have to go all the way (I would rather prefer a taxi all way to the final destination city) to an airport at Devanahalli or at some god-foresaken-place and not HAL airport inside city. If the LCC traveller finds it convenient to use HAL airport than BIAL, then who are you to deny him that choice and right of choosing an airport? Just like you die-hards trying to close down HAL, there are more die-hards wanting to retain HAL airport. Please remember that.

KB335ci

May 6th, 2008, 05:41 AM

PLEAZZ, would you ZIMBLY give it a rest alreddy?!?!?!?!?! :nuts:

dakshinapraja

May 6th, 2008, 05:45 AM

It is not the responsibility of BIAL to construct roads - why don't people understand this basic fact? It is the state government's duty. Why blame BIAL for it? What was the government doing all these years? What were the petitioners doing all these years? Where they hoping that BIAL would never come up? This exposes their ulterior motives
Also, if you retain HAL, you will have traffic jams all over as some people will be going to HAL, some to BIAL. Also then BIAL will not start the second phase, for, why should they? Then a few years down the road, people will start whining all over again!
In the end, we all get what we deserve....:bash:

mpvp

May 6th, 2008, 05:50 AM

I'm only asking the public that can't afford it, to suffer...

Well, let us see whether the courts agree to that.

KB335ci

May 6th, 2008, 05:59 AM

It's just like you folk to take every damn thing so damn seriously. Chill the EFF out...

Silicon_Valley

May 6th, 2008, 06:19 AM

.....In Bangalore, travelling 40 km by shoddy roads to BIAL taking 2-3hours for travelling a 1 hour short haul flight is ridiculous to most of people .....

Shoddy? Have you ever commuted the roads leading to BIA? They may be a bit cramped, but not shoddy.

zenith_suv

May 6th, 2008, 06:41 AM

Lets leave the public convenience issue to a side for a moment and see it from a 100% technical point of view and still shutting down HAL makes very little sense.

BAIL will have one runaway and a fair few rapid exit taxiways when compared to HAL , from my own personal experience in Delhi I can tell that Rapid exit taxi ways are not a solution to more flight movements as it impacts movements no more than a range of +2 or 3 at Max.

According to a newspaper clipping posted above BIAL matches the capacity or maybe even falls shot a tad when compared to flight estimates of 2008-09 in terms of terminal capacity as well as flight movements capability.

building another runaway is a good idea but it's not possible due to the Air Force base approach path and believe me that shifting the Air base in India to make way for civilian comfort is not happening as defense ministry will cry foul , Air chief Marshall will call it a "gross insult" and if it goes to courts then you just know who the Supreme court will favor.

Coupled with large distances and poor connectivity this would mean that BIAL would become more and more crammed as the time goes by as court cases drag along , passengers would crib and short distance ones would rather travel by train.

Ina time when public are demading more and more , and airlines are seeing large losses , i don't know how things would turn out.

A plausible solution could be to allow LCC to function from HAL and work out a revenue sharing model with BIAL.

indeglow1

May 6th, 2008, 07:00 AM

Bangalore doesnt need two airports-probably not for another 25 yrs All these comparisons with cities with 2 airports are ridiculous given limited traffic Bangalore has (compared to these cities).Build better connectivity-thats the solution and not keeping the old tin shed open and financially chocking a brand new airport with a lot of potential for expansion.40 KM from the city center is not that far for a city as widespread as Bangalore is.Get used to it.

zenith_suv

May 6th, 2008, 07:11 AM

Bangalore doesn't need two airports-probably not for another 25 yrs All these comparisons with cities with 2 airports are ridiculous given limited traffic Bangalore has (compared to these cities).Build better connectivity-thats the solution and not keeping the old tin shed open and financially chocking a brand new airport with a lot of potential for expansion.40 KM from the city center is not that far for a city as widespread as Bangalore is.Get used to it.

I'm curious - how will this second runaway be built with the Air force approach path blocking it , any bright ideas ?

sammyk

May 6th, 2008, 08:01 AM

Distances may be nothing but time taken to travel by Bangalore roads is big pain, considering the road conditions. Imagine a person wanting to take a short haul flight by low cost carrier with an air ticket for Rs 1500/- and air travel time of only 1 hour will be forced to spend Rs 1000/- for taxi to BIAL and average 2-3 hours by road to BIAL. Who is BIAL or you or anybody to force public to go through such a pain when HAL airport is present right inside the city?

Dear, driving now through bellary road to BIAL as you think may be only a dream shortlived. Once BIAL is up and running, and all the road traffic starts flowing through the narrow bellary road/NH7 to BIAL, it will become another kempegowda road type of traffic nightmare with vehicles crawling like tortoises. Then even 3 hours may seem more like on the down side. Instead of covering up government's and BIAL's failure to atleast put a good expressway from city to BIAL and metro link by now, it is a shame that you are asking the public to suffer.

Don't these two statements by you tell you that instead of wasting money and keeping the old airport around that the money should be spent on building an adequate road to the airport considering it is only 40km?

qwertyasd

May 6th, 2008, 08:01 AM

Again, blame the central govt for its terrible policy. (which has now been corrected now). Govt make mistakes and it is upto ppl to keep them in power or not.

But, i feel its not good to go back on contracts. Creates terrible precedent.

Lets not have any more discussion. Let bygones be bygones. If you dont like the new situation, stop taking flights. BIAL will automatically suffer. Perhaps you could also start a no-flying movement. But, the contract should still be sanctimonious.

sammyk

May 6th, 2008, 08:06 AM

Yes, dear for the same reason that citizens in Houston and Dallas of USA fought for retaining their city airports and won eventually. In Houston, even with a good expressway to reach the international airport at outskirts in 45 minutes, citizens were angered and they fought to retain the city airport which they won.

In Bangalore, travelling 40 km by shoddy roads to BIAL taking 2-3hours for travelling a 1 hour short haul flight is ridiculous to most of people except for some die-hards like you who want to shut down HAL airport by any means.

First don't call me dear. No need for a condescending attitude as you are no better than anyone else here.

Houston Hobby...hardly any competition to IAH. Besides, IAH and HOU are owned by the same entity.

Dallas Love exists because of Southwest. Withouth Southwest it would probably get service from a few regionals.

There is simply no comparison.

There you bring up the shoddy roads yet never suggest improving them so your 2-3 hour commute to the airport is reduced to less than one.

zenith_suv

May 6th, 2008, 10:11 AM

Centre to study feasibility of 2 airports in Bangalore
Our Bureau NEW DELHI

THE Supreme Court on Monday asked the Centre to look into the feasibility of equipping the Silicon City of the country with two airports for catering the needs of the people in an efficient manner. The apex court, however, refused to direct the authorities not to shut down the HAL airport after operationalisation of the new Bangalore International Airport (Bial) at Devanhalli.

A bench comprising Chief Justice KG Balakrishnan and Justice MK Sharma asked the authorities to look into the plea of the petitioners.

Additional solicitor general Gopal Subramanium on behalf of the Centre assured the court that the government is scheduled to meet on May 12 and the plea would be looked into.

Petitioner Bangalore City Connect Foundation, an organisation of the citizens of the city, has approached the apex court against the Karnataka High Court order. The HC on April 16 had refused to direct the authorities not to close the HAL airport or levy User Development Fee on the passengers at the Bial. It had posted the matter for hearing in June. Currently, Bial has proposed UDF of Rs 240-plus taxes and Rs 520-plus taxes for domestic and international passengers, respectively. Bial is proposed to start its commercial operations from around end May, 2008. Senior counsel Harish Salve and advocate Mahesh Agrawal on behalf of petitioners said that there is no provision under the Airports Authority of India Act, 1994 or the Aircrafts Act, 1934 which confers any power on the Union of India or the AAI permitting them to enter into an agreement to close down the existing airport.

The petition had sought direction to the authorities to permit functioning of both HAL and Bial airports. Senior counsel KK Venugopal and advocate Pratap Venugopal on behalf of Bial, however, said that commissioning of the new airport was a policy matter of the government which cannot be challenged in the court.

ullasavadan

May 6th, 2008, 10:59 AM

mailabode

May 6th, 2008, 05:55 PM

TO MPVP:
You called me a Donkey who did not know anything about "AIRPORT" and asked me to get educated about airports. Before that - Below are extracts of your intellect and knowledge of "airport" from your statements starting 2 days ago. I dont see you having any more knowledge than me - except for your talent for gibberish. Posts are in ascending order of time(except for posts by 'Me' which are current) and demarcated by lines.

RaviBG: Green
Me : Blue
MPVP: Traditional Red
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
Let the airport first open, and if it is not sufficient, HAL can be reopened. So why are people talking as though the airport will be overcrowded from day 1?

MPVP: Sorry, dude I feel it should be the other way. Public interest is number one priority for any government or courts. It may be recalled from past experience that BIAL is not transparent to public, they hide more facts than they reveal to public. Hence for public interest, let HAL airport remain as long as it is needed and make BIAL honestly accountable to public. Once public gets required confidence by using BIAL airport with regard to passenger capacity, infrastructure capability, cargo facilities and road/rail/metro connectivity to BIAL established, then we can all think of closing down HAL airport unanimously.

Till then, May 29, 2008 is opening date for BIAL and business as usual at HAL airport.

Me: We elect governments because they should do the work on our behalf. BIAL or a Privatised railways do not have to reveal everything to the public all the time – thats the system you elected to have. If you want a system where public control day to day affairs( worser than bureaucracy than we have today where projects will take decades to even take off) – then first choose to disband the present system where you elect a Govt to represent you and do things on your behalf - you cant have it both ways.
People like you who now say that it will be business as usual at HAL will anyway never get satisfied with anything BIAL does - IF you have your way now, later you are expected to say “no we cant allow closure“ and so BIAL will never see a working day just like many industres that died in Bengal and Kerala.

The only cunningness here is that you use the poor public as a shield to achieve your narrow selfish needs and of the people whom i suspect you work for as an agent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
Agreements can be modified if both parties want it. One party cannot try to force change in the agreement.

MPVP: Similary, please be aware BIAL is meant for not some private few people but the whole public in large itself. Public cannot be inconvenienced on any front due to mistakes committed by intention or lack of foresight while signing the agreement. Hence, if protecting public interest demands modification of any agreement, it will happen so.

Me: BIAL is not meant for the private few?- unsubstantiated accusation and this is typical commie rubbish – BIAL is made for the public and its waiting to serve. The traffic was recalculated , the airport redesigned and completed to estimated traffic. The only problem is that you want HAL to be opened for ever and so you make false accusations that BIAL cannot handle traffic, with no evidence to back your claims. You could be an AAI employee or in the service of Netas perhaps of commies.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpvp
Sorry, dude I feel it should be the other way. Public interest is number one priority for any government or courts. It may be recalled from past experience that BIAL is not transparent to public, they hide more facts than they reveal to public. Hence for public interest, let HAL airport remain as long as it is needed and make BIAL honestly accountable to public. Once public gets required confidence by using BIAL airport with regard to passenger capacity, infrastructure capability, cargo facilities and road/rail/metro connectivity to BIAL established, then we can all think of closing down HAL airport unanimously.

RaviBG: When was BIAL not transparent? Don't forget that AAI and Karnataka government too have 13% stake in the airport and are on the board of the company. It is not like BIAL is scamming anyone. The data they initially planned on was approved by the government and matched the government's projection. Your argument is "guilty unless proven innocent". Have you been to the BIAL airport? How do you know it won't handle current capacity? All people who have been to the airport and posted here have said that it is quite big compared to HAL airport and has all adequate infrastructure. Connectivity is not BIAL's responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpvp
Similary, please be aware BIAL is meant for not some private few people but the whole public in large itself. Public cannot be inconvenienced on any front due to mistakes committed by intention or lack of foresight while signing the agreement. Hence, if protecting public interest demands modification of any agreement, it will happen so.

RaviBG: Everything was done in a transparent manner. When the RFPs were floated, they mentioned that existing airports will be closed down in 150km radius except for mysore airport. The RFP said that the private operators can charge UDF. It is the same in hyderabad, mumbai and Delhi too. What were all these people doing then? Sleeping? Hadn't these people heard of Devanahalli and that it was 35 kms from center of the city? Why did everyone remain silent then? These people were silent when it mattered and now shouting as though BIAL and government fooled them. You are accusing the government of not having foresight, but why didn't you or any of those clamouring for not closing down HAL airport have any foresight? Bangalore traffic is not so big as to have two airports. Even big cities like Singapore, Kaula Lampur etc have just one airport.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
Don't forget that AAI and Karnataka government too have 13% stake in the airport and are on the board of the company. It is not like BIAL is scamming anyone. Connectivity is not BIAL's responsibility.

MPVP: You are contradicting yourself. You say Governmnt holds 13% stake in BIAL again you say BIAL not responsible for connectivity problems now. Why didnot BIAL and its stake holder government work together to get good connectivity for past 3 years?

Me: Why did you not answer his question about your own lack of foresight? – selective amnesia or inconvenient questions?.
When he said the Govt had 13 percent stake he was referring to the fact that the all along the State Govt knew whatever BIAL knew - in order to counter your accusation about lack of transparency . He was not refering to connectivity. Now you dont like to answer that that question and jump from transparency to connectivity like a grasshopper – again irrelevance and not to the point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
Even big cities like Singapore, Kaula Lampur etc have just one airport.

MPVP: You are talking about island and small countries. Instead try to compare with countries similar in size with India lika Brasil where they have two airports in many cities.

Me: You say “Island and small countries should not be taken into the consideration“ (area was your criterion) when he talked of Malaysia- and yet you consider the example of small island UK in later posts below completely ignorant of the fact Malaysia is significantly bigger than the UK.
Its not the size but population, industry and trade volumes that matter.
And you ask people to compare India only with big countries like Brazil (2.6 times India’s size). Lets examine this your own way:
1) you compare disproprtionate sizes and 2) and disproportionate populations(India 329/sqkm, Brazil 22/sqkm,Wikipedia) – ratio between the two densities valid even today).
Brazil is much BIGGER in size (and very sparsely populated ) and so we must follow Brazil as the benchmark for Indian conditions as opposed to Malaysia or UK or elsewhere? – IF a moron of the standards displayed in your reply above were an advisor for any infrastructure project imagine the kind of garbage that would have gone into the planning of every stage of that project - if BIAL or HIAL had one person like you on whom they depended the whole project would have gone seriously wrong, and YOU of all people accuse BIAL/Govt of shortcomings?.
Good business sense is optimal planning .
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RaviBG: Why are people clamouring for 2nd runway so soon? Even london's gatwick airport which handles many times the traffic of bangalore has just one runway and it is doing fine. It is in top 25 airports of the world, and we can agree that Bangalore isn't even in top 100.

London Gatwick Airport

Quote:
Gatwick Airport (IATA: LGW, ICAO: EGKK) is London's second largest airport and the second busiest airport in the United Kingdom after Heathrow. It is also the world's busiest single runway airport, and the world's 22nd busiest airport in terms of passengers per year (7th in terms of international passengers). It is located in Crawley, West Sussex (originally Charlwood, Surrey) 5 km (3 miles) north of the town centre, 46 km (28 miles) south of London and 40 km (25 miles) north of Brighton.

Singapore, Kaula Lampur etc have much more passengers flying out of its airport than bangalore will have over the next five to ten years. And they are doing fine with one airport. Singapore handled 36 million passengers in 2007 and KLIA handled 26 million in 2006. The land available with BIAL is similiar to that of Changi airport. As the traffic increases, BIAL is well prepared to expand and their terminals too are built such that it supports future expansion, provided that the government gives them a chance to and people who haven't even been to airport stop throwing bricks at it.

It is the responsibility of the state government to come up with connectivity, not BIAL. Whether it is HAL airport or BIAL, state govt and city corporations need to work on connectivity issues. The airport operator can provide land at the airport side, thats all. Providing connectivity isn't a simple thing, the state government has to purchase land for building new roads or train tracks etc and it is not the mandate for international airport operator.

I don't know on what basis people here are arguing that BIAL is insufficient or is not better than HAL. Except for connectivity which is not BIAL's responsibility, BIAL is better than HAL in all aspects. It is capable of future expansion, and can be the pride of Bangalore. At least wait till the airport opens and see for yourself before making unsubstantiated comments.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
Why are people clamouring for 2nd runway so soon? Even london's gatwick airport which handles many times the traffic of bangalore has just one runway and it is doing fine. It is in top 25 airports of the world, and we can agree that Bangalore isn't even in top 100.

MPVP: London has many airports in the city and its vicinity. Hence there may not be enough interest to increase runway in any one particular airport in the city. Moreover the flight schedules maybe more or less evenly distributed throughout the day and the airports.

Whereas in Bangalore domestic traffic peaks morning/evening hours and international traffic peaks during midnight. Not many of the domestic travellers would like to travel outside peak hours. Single runway was one of the major bottleneck for handling additional flights in HAL airport during peak hours. The same problem is going to repeat at BIAL airport once operational and probably even worse due to only 40% air traffic space at BIAL. Thus, BIAL is handicapped with single runway and by all means peak hour traffic is going to be a big mess with innumerate delays and so forth. Thus, HAL airport will come in handy here with its fantastic B747 capable runway and aid tremendously in handling more peak hour flights than what Bangalore is currently handling now.

Me: Flight scedules in the London are evenly distributed because more people fly over there and they distribute it throughout the day to make it as EFFICIENT as possible(instead of having more flights only during peak hours) - this does not mean that in London there is no peak hour traffic in the morning or evening just like Bangalore, it is the same– i have used all 5 of London’s airports at peak and non-peak hours. Business passengers travel usually early moning or late evening anywhere in the world - and same with Gatwick. “Single runway“ may have been the single bottleneck in HAL in the eyes of the AAI because they were inefficient and they did not know to identify the real problem namely ’inefficiency’(this is apart from the fact that HAL’s terminal building was too small)- but its not the case in Gatwick- and by the way Gatwick handles a lot more more peak hour traffic than Bangalore at the same times of the day you mentioned or at anytime of the day. That HAL CITED a runway problem as prime problem does not mean BIAL will have the same problem as you have illogically reasoned(characteristic of you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
It is the responsibility of the state government to come up with connectivity, not BIAL.

MPVP: Why should public be penalised for the lapses of BIAL or Government?
Why do you want public to take the beating for all the mistakes of BIAL or government? After all the same public is going to patronise BIAL and the roads to BIAL, they should be treated with dignity.

Me: Not all the public feel penalised(you act as if the sky has fallen down)- its just a few people like you who say so. You arent the mouthpiece of the entire public. They want to have a good state of the art airport (BIAL in this case) to function and sustain itself and improve over the years which will not happen if HAL is not closed, and the result of this will be an unsustainable BIAL airport that will by itself close down sometime (IF people like you succeed)– the public lose due to BIAL’s closure is my opinion.
For such things not to happen we elect a Govt to act on our behalf – you cant choose to elect a Govt and also have anarchy(have the cake and eat it too) where you take the law into your own hands and control day to day affairs- the public at large will not allow this. People are not taking a beating at all(I dont think you care too much for the public) – they are undergoing structural change and the Govt has a mandate to effect this change. Be in the system or get out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
I don't know on what basis people here are arguing that BIAL is insufficient or is not better than HAL.

MPVP: Nobody including me is questioning whether BIAL better than HAL. BIAL is of course better than HAL airport in terms of terminal area, parking areas, future expansion land availability etc..The issue here is passenger traffic grew much more than BIAL expected and its present infrastructure with its expansion plans maynot be enough to meet the future growth in Bangalore passenger traffic as it had anticipated during agreement. This is where HAL airport with its reasonably good infrastructure comes in handy as the second airport of Bangalore.

Me: His main point here was how you came to know ’BIAL Airport is insufficient’ – you did not answer this but go on parroting the same old thing “May not be able to handle future growth.... whine whine“. Is this the donkey mentality you were describing?. Anyways can you explain why it can’t handle future growth (with some proof and including official statements already made)?- you discussed with BIAL about their future plans? . If you cannot – then Stop making unsubstantiated claims .
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RaviBG: mpvp, did you even read Brunner's interview above where he said that they can handle twice the flights that HAL airport can?

Gatwick London airport has a curfew in the night, they cannot operate between 12 am and 6:30pm. Note the number of flights they handle per day. And it doesn't matter how many airports that city has, this airport is handling large number of flights every day and the average flights handled per hour in London Gatwick is more than the peak traffic that will be handled by BIAL for next few years.

I have travelled through HAL airport a lot, and the international flights scheduled during night is hardly 10 from 10pm to 7pm. You have flights of TG, SQ, MH, EK, LH, AF, AI and BA. That is 8 flights in 9 hours. Of these, only BA departs at 6:45 ( or 7:45 depending on whether it is daylight savings time in UK). That is the peak hour traffic in HAL today. The problem with HAL is that it cannot accomodate so many passengers in the terminal, with the limited number of departure lounges, counters etc. BIAL is much bigger and can handle 2700 people per hour which is equivalent to 7 boeing 747s. It will also have 5 aerobridges. It has more baggage claim belts and arrival hall is much bigger. The bottleneck is the passenger handling capacity in HAL today for international flights.

The other major reason for air traffic congestion in HAL airport is the lack of rapid exitways. Aircraft have to go all the way to the end of the runway to exit from it. In BIAL, due to the rapid exitways present, they can exit once they slow down to required speed at the nearest exitway, and the next aircraft in queue can land or take off.

Another major reason for ATC congestion is due to lack of proper training and equipment for our ATCs. Even in Mumbai and Delhi, the number of flights handled per hour is less than the peak handled in other developed countries.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibg
I have travelled through HAL airport a lot, and the international flights scheduled during night is hardly 10 from 10pm to 7pm. You have flights of TG, SQ, MH, EK, LH, AF, AI and BA. That is 8 flights in 9 hours. Of these, only BA departs at 6:45 ( or 7:45 depending on whether it is daylight savings time in UK). That is the peak hour traffic in HAL today.

MPVP: You are talking about International flights which may not be a problem now. What about domestic flights during peak hour?

Me: He asked you if you even read Brunner’s interview – you ignore the question.
He tried to bring Gatwick Airport to to your notice once again after you turned a blind eye to this question in your previous post – and again you avoid talking about Gatwick. He explains the reasons for congestion and solutions which included rapid exit ways, taxiways and ATC which apply to all flights– and only finally did he make a minor mention about International flights. And what do you do- you mischaracterize the message as if it focusses on ’International Flights Only’. Is this the Donkey mentality you described or dont you know how to comprehend English?.

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On the domestic end too, BIAL can handle more than twice HAL's capacity during peak hour when it opens. BIAL's current capacity is more than HAL's capacity and can easily handle traffic for next few years. And BIAL is already drawing up plans for the next stage. Look at Brunner's interview above. And he isn't lying or covering up, for both State govt and AAI are on its board.

Me: Mr RaviBG, Brunner did not say BIAL can handle double the capacity of HAL. He said that BIAL can accommodate a peak hour demand of 2,730 passengers, and that unlike HAL rapid exits make it possible for BIAL to handle one flight every two minutes. He wanted to draw attention to the fact that if HAL was designed for a traffic of 3 million and yet ended up handling 10 million , then there is no way BIAL which was designed for 11 million to 12 million passengers - will ever be unable to handle the current and future demand(for quite a while) or ever come to a standstill as some people would like to mischaracterize.
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Originally Posted by ravibg
On the domestic end too, BIAL can handle more than twice HAL's capacity during peak hour when it opens. BIAL's current capacity is more than HAL's capacity and can easily handle traffic for next few years.

MPVP: As you say, BIAL terminal area may be able to handle double the capacity as that of HAL airport, but that is not enough; your runway has to allow so many flights to land & takeoff in such a short span of peak hour time. So, what about the capacity in BIAL after taking into account single runway and reduced airspace BIAL is going to live with?

Experts say that Capacity handling of any airport is determined by the capacity of each and every piece of airport infrastructure that includes terminal capability, ATC, runways, parking etc. and bottleneck in any one of the areas can cause delays and slowdown of flight turnaround time.

The question is whether BIAL (with single runway like HAL) can handle peak hour traffic any better than the HAL airport with the high growth of passenger traffic seen now..[/QUOTE]

Me: Look at his full previous from which you have quoted. Note how you pull out bits of his post and quote it WHILE NOT QUOTING THE MAIN POINT that he was trying hard to convey. Then you go on to pose him a question the answer to which he had already provided in the part of his message that you conveniently left out & decided not to quote - once, twice, thrice is fine. But continually doing this(look how many times you have done this- everything is right on this page for convenience)? - you have an agenda here.
Reduced airspace?- not a big issue – Ask your commie Netas or the AAI whoever you work for as an agent to force the Govt to have a bit more consideration for their citizens, cut out bureaucracy, and provide more airspace for whoever has the greater need of airspace.
Also ask them to provide proper connectivity and clean affordable public transport to BIAL within a couple of months and that will make it complete- and hope that also stops your complaining.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailabode
Since MPVP has pledged that he would permit anything that makes convenience for the people - when the govt wants the land of his house to build a public road or to expand the existing road- he should be willing to give it up without protest and go wherever they relocate him(example Whitefield) in the interest of greater public conveninece.

MPVP: Nobody here is against BIAL or any new private airports. Public is only against the unwanted insistence by BIAL that the public sector HAL airport has to be "SHUT DOWN" for it to earn higher revenues at the cost of public convenience

Please think about Indian Railways which is one of the largest public sector organisation in the world, provides subsidy to passenger fares and still make profits. But it is people like you who promote that all public sector outfits are cheap and useless and needs to be closed. I dont agree with that. What is needed is co-existence of public and private sector units in India for a healthy competition in the long run.

Me: Mis-characterisation again: I never said public sector outfits are cheap- i said they are inefficiently run and consequently useless compared to what an outfit really needs to be. Indian Railways does not provide the services it should provide- its coverage is inadequate, it has not invested in infrastucture and does not have the required funds even today for modernization and will never have it if its fully Govt owned. Its ok for people like you - to have a content populace with no development like in Bengal where the govt tries to enable everyone have some sort of very basic livelihood(and failed miserably at even that ) but with perpetual backwardness and no development. If you had bothered to read you would noted i had said that it’s not the job of an efficient Govt to run industries and businesses WHICH ARE NOT ESSENTIAL PUBLIC SERVICES because this makes the Govt crippled(i cant get this and subtle differences into the head of a Commie thickhead which i think you are- communists are thickheads is being proved world over).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpvp
As you say, BIAL terminal area may be able to handle double the capacity as that of HAL airport, but that is not enough; your runway has to allow so many flights to land & takeoff in such a short span of peak hour time. So, what about the capacity in BIAL after taking into account single runway and reduced airspace BIAL is going to live with?
...
The question is whether BIAL (with single runway like HAL) can handle peak hour traffic any better than the HAL airport with the high growth of passenger traffic seen now..

RaviBG: MPVP, did you read Brunner's interview and the posts I made above about Gatwick airport able to handle large number of flights with single runway? BIAL has rapid exitways on its runways, and so can clear the runway as soon as the aircraft lands. Gatwick operates more number of flights per day now on its single runway than BIAL can hope to over next 3-4 years. BIAL can easily handle twice HAL's traffic with its single runway NOW.

Me: This is the third time RaviBG mentioned Gatwick and asked this question - At the time of posting this message you still have not replied to this question because you are inept MPVP.
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RaviBG: MPVP, did you read Brunner's interview and the posts I made above about Gatwick airport able to handle large number of flights with single runway? BIAL has rapid exitways on its runways, and so can clear the runway as soon as the aircraft lands. Gatwick operates more number of flights per day now on its single runway than BIAL can hope to over next 3-4 years. BIAL can easily handle twice HAL's traffic with its single runway NOW.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailabode
He says each and every piece of infrastructure should be able to handle a specific load - i am sure MPVP has no idea about
.....................
Such people should be asked to fall in line with everybody else or feel free to get out without disturbing the convenience of 99 percent of the passengers - we must learn to be strict about this.

MPVP: It seems you have no idea about airport at all and your mails are indicative of long unwanted boring speeches like any third rate neta gives to the crowd!!!

Just try to understand the differences between airport and bus stand and that aeroplanes cannot go by road but by air and they cannot be stopped in between and controlled by air traffic controllers etcc... Till then talking to you is like telling wise ideas to a donkey... I would instead suggest you spend more time in understanding airports worldwide and then come back after some time instead of trying to force your stupid opinions through others throat.

Me: You say i have no idea about ’airport’ at all – give an example(if cou cannot then i think you should shut up once and for all). First lets see if you know anything about ’airport’. The posts in blue bring out to the fore the thrash in your posts. Observe how you slyly slip away from the point in focus and then speak nonsense about some new irrelevant point.

Have you forgotten it was you who mentioned that BIAL has excellent infrastructure except for not having an extra runway(you never talked about connectivity in that post) – and i summed ’the admission of yours that Runway was the ONLY problem, the facts about Gatwick Airport, and Brunner’s numbers and his statement about Taxiways and Efficiency’ and deduced that all of the former(except your claim that single runway is a handicap) were true - then an inefficient ATC handled as usual by incompetent AAI staff would be the only hinderance to an efficient BIAL. So what’s the irrelevant talk about me not knowing the difference between an airport and a bus-stand- able to explain? or will you continue to shamelessly hide 'your stupid self and your ignorance' behind another saree of diversions and irrelevant name calling?.

You say i made insipid comments about your post - well how do you expect me to make an interesting comment about your senseless comments?.

I dont consider you to be the MOUTH PIECE OF EVERYBODY.
Whatever i said of you was straightforward and in context and ’not besides the point’ like yourself or third rate corrupt socialist netas usually do. Cunningness and not long speeches is the core competence of third rate netas. One doesnt become a girl for having long hair but only because of basic sexual features – if you can understand the analogy.

Nobody forcing you to eat my comments – my advise to you is work more and eat what you earn instead of eating freebies and nothing will get stuck in your throat(as you complained). Remember you said that as long as people are willing to give freebees youre willing to take them.

If you write comedy i reserve the right to comment – free country.