Ok - so we're not getting the tram (or at least it's very unlikely). I never understood what the big obsession with trams was anyway. Where they run on the road, they get stuck in traffic. They're only allowed to go the same speed as the speed limit of the nearest road, and rarely take a direct route into the city centre. For people travelling from outside Leeds who want to use public transport - it means they need to change from the train network onto the tram network, creating hassle, which often puts people off. All this and it costs millions and creates disruption during construction.

I think before we start to think of schemes like this - we need to make more use of the existing rail network. The rails are already built. They take a direct route into town. They are connected to the national rail network. There's plenty of space on the lines to add extra tracks, where there are maybe only 2, but space for 3 or 4.

My proposal is this. The line I have best knowledge of is the line out to Crossgates/Garforth/York, although I know the situation is similar on most lines. The tracks run from Leeds city centre, past the bus station/Quarry Hill, Halton Dial (A64/A63 junct), Killingbeck, Crossgates, the M1 and out to Garforth. Yet there are only stations at CrossGates and Garforth.
I think the number of stations should be vastly increased, for example on this line you could put platforms at the bus station/Quarry Hill (how many large cities have only one city centre train station?), one at Halton Dial where there's room for a massive car park on the old petrol station site (park n ride?), one in Killingbeck, definitely one at the M1 for park and ride.

I understand that the train from York ain't gonna stop at these stations as the journey time would be too long. What I think is that building these platforms (for a tiny percent of the tram cost) and a fleet of nice new trains could run from Garforth to City Centre and back again. Much faster and more direct than trams. Room to park at the stations. Connections to the national rail network.

Also just off the top of my head could add stations at the White Rose, Airport, Elland Road (park and ride from the motorway & matchdays), Headingley statdium (park n ride and matchdays), Armley, Kirkstall, the list goes on and on.

Then there's things like restoring the old line to Wetherby. Surley this is much cheaper and would get people onto the trains more? OK so there wouldn't be as many city centre stops, and stations are restricted to where existing lines are, but it's a start and a cheap alternative....

It all sounds common sense and almost too simple! It'll never happen! ;)

I think it's a superb plan, obviously there'd be the cost of better rolling stock and actually building the additional stations but as you say I'm sure it would cost a fraction of the supertram. Train services in the city boundary areas could then be increased to run say every 10 minutes.

I think that there's plans to build a station at Kirstall Forge as part of the proposed development.

Sounds eminently feasible and sensible Leeds Lad. Though it wouldn't help the part of Leeds where I live (a whole swathe of north Leeds lacks any railway lines) I think it could well be a good start in the post supertram era. Why not send your suggestions to the WYPTE and the city council. Who knows it may already be part of their mythical plan B ! :)

Heavy rail costs even more to construct than light rail...

a lot more than light rail.

The costs are huge, normally due to the health and saftey concerns.

See West Coast Main line - how many miles were actually replaced, how many trains were purchase, and how many signals were replaced.

Not much for the several £bn spent.

Heavy rail costs even more to construct than light rail...

But we're not saying construct lines, we're saying put additional stations on existing lines!

I'm not suggesting building new lines or replacing track for the most of this project - just putting platforms in place where needed, and some extra rail for long haul trains to pass by. Gotta be less than £365Mil or whatever...

snap! smoggie we must have posted at same time

The rails are already built. They take a direct route into town.

I would argue with the use of the word "direct" - have you seen the route trains from Wakefield and Normanton take? :)

LeedsLad - a sinlge line in Manchester, the Manchester Victoria to Rochdale line (via Oldham) is falling apart in some parts, the cost estimates to 'fix' this, i.e. not new stations, no new trains is well oevr £100m (hence trams are a good alternative).

Do not underestimate the cost of additional signalling for new stations etc.

Well if the costs are that much, then fair enough - but there are many advantages over the tram scheme (less distruption, existing lines, links to national network, maybe more likely to get approval?) etc

LeedsLad, to be honest, the most successful tram lines have been heavy rail converstions - for example the Alty and Bury lines.

That said, where segregated running is possible, that also tend to be successful, e.g. Nottingham.

The 'stuck in traffic' is somewhat off a falicy, there are very very few 'pinch points' at all on the UK tram systems, and those that do exist could be gotten rid off with some better traffic planning.

Maybe not as expensive as you suggest Metrolink - Found this on the Metro website (ironic?).

http://www.wymetro.com/ProjectsAndPlans/CompletedProjects/Glasshoughtonrailstation.htm
It says the cost of the new station at Castleford, built on an existing line was £2.3Mil. £365Mil divided by £2.3Mil is?..... A lot of new stations!

Also found the cost of a new 3 carriage train is around £3Mil:
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/page.cfm?objectid=12924639&method=full&siteid=50061&headline=Plan+to+replace+Mersey+trains

Ok so there will be signalling costs and the need to build car parks but:
20 New stations at £2.5Mil each = £50Mil.
33 New trains at £3Mil each = £100Mil.
Signalling, track improvement and Car Park Costs = £25Mil. (guess)

There you go - Achievable for £175Mil - about half the cost of the tram scheme! Probably don't need that many new stations or trains either!

LeedsLad, to be honest, the most successful tram lines have been heavy rail converstions - for example the Alty and Bury lines.

That said, where segregated running is possible, that also tend to be successful, e.g. Nottingham.

The 'stuck in traffic' is somewhat off a falicy, there are very very few 'pinch points' at all on the UK tram systems, and those that do exist could be gotten rid off with some better traffic planning.

Yes the first tram line in Manchester was the joining, in the city centre, of those two train lines. Probably cost a lot less as a consequence. No such possibility exists in Leeds.

Fallacy maybe, but I would have expected several such 'pinch points' on the Headingley/Otley Road corridor !

On a totally different subject - anyone help me - how do I add a file from 'Paint' into one of my posts please? I want to put a map of my proposed ouer ring road in the other thread? Thanks

I also notice GNER are wanting to electrify the line that goes through Garforth and Micklefield to Hambleton Junction where it joins the ECML at a cost of £70 million. Now if this electrification goes ahead, plus the bit between this line and the main line running towards York, then it makes it more likely that Eurostar services could run through Leeds to London and Paris and maybe Brussels from 2007 onwards using the new CTRL line.

A great example of the benefits of a well planned Tram system can be seen in Nottingham. There you can go either straight from the Train Station or the motorway into the heart of the city centre.

This could not happen with heavy rail, unless you want to build some seriously expensive tunnels.

I admit the downside of what I proposed is that there is only really the main train station or a new station at the bus station to get off at - but you can't get much closer the centre of Leeds anyway, as it's all pedestrianised - the bus station and train station are just on the edge of the pedestrianised area anyway.

I admit the downside of what I proposed is that there is only really the main train station or a new station at the bus station to get off at - but you can't get much closer the centre of Leeds anyway, as it's all pedestrianised - the bus station and train station are just on the edge of the pedestrianised area anyway.

what about the benefits then for Leeds of a Park and ride Tram System right into the city centre.

Probably not as cheap as you hope as pretty much all the lines into Leeds are full. To build a new set of tracks and stattions well you might as well build a new tram system.

If you're talking about a heavy rail version of a tram then of course that's going to be cost prohibitive. But that's not what is on the table.

Clearly (at this stage) even the tram is unaffordable, so you can either stand still and do nothing, save the pennies for a medium/long term solution to a short term problem (and I don't even think transport budgets work that way), or you can augment your existing rail system. Obviously the success of this hinges on the extent, routing and capacity of your existing system (anybody care to post maps?), but provided you've got the backbone of a network in position you can certainly do a lot with £375 million quid.

Apologies in advance for dragging Glasgow into this, but it's one of the few topics I feel confident in discussing and it offers an interesting alternative case study to Manchester's Metrolink, although I concede Glasgow's rail legacy made decision here simpler.

New stations shouldn't cost more than £2.5 million a pop. ie for bare bones platform and shelter. A new interchange station is planned here at £7.5 million and for that you'll get a new main line station, travellators for subway connections and a new ticketing hall. Costs increment heavily for completely new lines though, the new airport extension is costing £140 million largely because 2km of new track, and the terminal station itself, has to be elevated on a viaduct above parks and the motorway. This is offset though by the massive advantage of plugging into an existing system, 9km of track is being upgraded into the city and the increased passenger flows across the western approach will benefit everyone, especially Paisley.
http://www.spt.co.uk/garl/

If you do have derelict lines though, it's the way to go. For a paltry £35 million we're getting 6.3km of new track and 4 new commuter stations. That's the beauty of it, you can add incrementally new track as and when demand and budgets dictate. You are not obligated to instantly construct an entire network.
http://www.spt.co.uk/microsites/Larkhall/index.html

Lack of central stations is a problem, but it can be worked around. So long as capacity at the hub station can be boosted to handle new commuter lines it should be fine. Sure a tram would be cheaper than building heavy rail central connections, but so long as the central core is compact and easily navigable and I presume it is, buses could handle it at zero cost and infinite adaptability. The more connections and hassle people have to put up with the less likely they are to bother.

Maybe it's because we don't have any, but I struggle to see the use for trams. Trains are king for long distance, busses for inner urban hops and trams? They're this inbetweeny, neither or thing you can't pin down. Best for serving inner city areas with no heavy rail access, maybe.

It might be an idea to have a similar metro network to the tyne and wear metro running on existing lines which would run regularly and stop at every station (by the time it would happen there would probably be more stations). I dunno where there could be more stations on the Harrogate Line- only the airport...