London and Manchester have one, Leeds has half of one. Our completed 'half' is:
A1 South, M1, M62 West

What do people think about completing it as follows;

From M62 West, upgrade A650 to motorway, upgrade A6177, upgrade A658 as far as the Airport, then a new Motorway East to join up back with the A1....

I wish

Can't see it ever happening to be honest. Getting the ring road upgraded to dual carriageway between the Lawnswood roundabout and Dawsons Corner with the Horsforth and Rodley roundabouts remodelled, so as not to be complete bottlenecks in rush hour, would make a huge difference to traffic flow in north Leeds and be relatively straightforward I would have thought.

There was a survey done by the council a few years ago amongst ring road users that identified this section as being the problem area of the ring road, but as usual nothing seems to have happened. Ho hum!

I have a map of my proposal but how do I put it up on here please???

Can't see it ever happening to be honest. Getting the ring road upgraded to dual carriageway between the Lawnswood roundabout and Dawsons Corner with the Horsforth and Rodley roundabouts remodelled, so as not to be complete bottlenecks in rush hour, would make a huge difference to traffic flow in north Leeds and be relatively straightforward I would have thought.

There was a survey done by the council a few years ago amongst ring road users that identified this section as being the problem area of the ring road, but as usual nothing seems to have happened. Ho hum!

There were firm proposals to make it dual carriageway - I remember going to a public enquiry about it -but the government pulled the plug.

The A6177 is just a windy back street and that route is perhaps too far out.

The current A6110 and A6120 should be made full dual carriageway all the way round, so from J1 of the M621 round to J46 of the M1, with the current motorways will make a full loop right round the whole of Leeds.

If nothing else, it looks as if things are happening on Leeds Inner Ring Road.

Application 21/247/05/FU
Received on 05/08/2005

Description
variation of condition no.2 of permission 99-20/201/94/fu (construction of viaduct)
Location
LEEDS INNER RING ROAD (WHITEHOUSE STREET TO RICHMOND BRIDGE) LEEDS 3033 3133 3132 LS10 MAJ
Library
Belle Isle

I dont think there will ever be any motorway constructed to go round north leeds, although maybe a smaller road might. I do think however a dual carriageway to extend straight up from where the M62 curves round between Leeds and Bradford up to the airport would prove to be a great transport corridor between 2 major cities and the airport.

Still would like to post a map on here but I don't know how - anyone help me out?

There are plans to make the road from Horsforth to Roundhay in dual carriageway. I seem to think that there is a low. medium and high cost plan. This is the high cost plan which means it is unlikely to happen and I expect there would be many objections to this. I have also seen plans to change the road from horsforth roundabout to the crematorium into dual carriageway and then build a dual carriageway over the hill opposite the crematorium up to the airport. I think this was on the medium cost plans.

Any idea when the Ponterfract Road (I think that is what it is called) will be made dual carriageway to allow the motorway junctions to be opened?

http://www.leeds.gov.uk/A6120%20Leeds%20Outer%20Ring%20Road%20study/page.aspx?style=

I know the thing you mean, Ive seen it too. The road to the airport was in medium and high cost. There was also a rail link to the airport in high cost and maybe medium, I can't quite remember. Low Cost would mean improvements on the existing road only.

Still would like to post a map on here but I don't know how - anyone help me out?
Go to www.imageshack.us and upload your image. Then click on the thumbnail to get the URL for the full size image.

Copy and paste the URL between tags. Or go to Advanced edit and click on the insert picture icon.

Look forward to seeing your map!

http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/6853/untitled2va.th.png (http://img312.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled2va.png)
Thanks Magic - Gotta click on it to make it bigger!!!!

Except for maybe the top bit, looks good to me. On the Thorpe Park site, the map suggests an East Leeds Orbital following the shape of the inner ring road from the surrent M1-A1 Link South East Leeds Orbital, up to the A58 I think, so...

that blue line obliterates my flat! i can't see leeds hijacking any part of bradford's ring road as its own just yet. and the A658 through undercliffe isn't a big thoroughfare by any means, any development of it would involve lots of demolition.

Yes, I wouldn't make it part of a Bradford Ring Road- I bet if this road was built it would be a very busy road too- used as a quick link from the 2 cities and as a major route straight through the conurbation from the Yorkshire Dales to the motorway network. I'm sure it would take alot of traffic out of Leeds City Centre and Bradford, particularly Leeds' inner ring road.

The road would be better going around the whole of Leeds and Bradford from the J23 area of the M62 past Halifax on towards Bingley, then from Bingley to Guiseley NW Leeds, past the airport and on towards the A1(M) at Wetherby. This would also ease the M62 between Leeds and Bradford as well as provide links to the Airport from both the East and the West.

Whether or not Leeds and Bradford ever tie links between the two cities, they will continue to grow towards each other. It makes more sense to plan ahead and think of the two cities as been together. On the Green side of things planners could be made to ensure development is kept within the boundrys of the new road.

The West Yorkshire Local Transport Plan (http://www.wyltp.com/NR/rdonlyres/9E8E94B1-C115-40D7-A1DE-68A8040BEB8A/0/chap18.pdf) suggests future long term development of the Leeds Outer Ring Road (no real details but an interesting read on Long Term Plans for ALL Leeds transport).
Also if you go to the Thorpe Park Website (http://www.thorpeparkleeds.com/map.html) as mentioned above, it suggests a future East Leeds Orbital Road - anyone know anything about this????

Guess no-one knows anything about the East Leeds Orbital Route I mentioned above then??

There are plans to make the road from Horsforth to Roundhay in dual carriageway. I seem to think that there is a low. medium and high cost plan. This is the high cost plan which means it is unlikely to happen and I expect there would be many objections to this. I have also seen plans to change the road from horsforth roundabout to the crematorium into dual carriageway and then build a dual carriageway over the hill opposite the crematorium up to the airport. I think this was on the medium cost plans.

Any idea when the Ponterfract Road (I think that is what it is called) will be made dual carriageway to allow the motorway junctions to be opened?

Forgive me if this seems stupid, it may just be my lack of knowledge about roads (I´m only 18), but surely the horsforth to roundhay section already is dual carriageway? I live about 5 minutes from this road and cross it several times a day on foot. Two lanes of traffic in each direction, separated carriageways, roundabouts and traffic-light controlled junctions = dual carriageway??

Forgive me if this seems stupid, it may just be my lack of knowledge about roads (I´m only 18), but surely the horsforth to roundhay section already is dual carriageway? I live about 5 minutes from this road and cross it several times a day on foot. Two lanes of traffic in each direction, separated carriageways, roundabouts and traffic-light controlled junctions = dual carriageway??

It's dual carriageway between the Lawnswood roundabout (Otley Road) and the Moortown roundabout (Harrogate Road). However the sections between Harrogate Road and Wetherby Road (ie passing by Roundhay) and between Lawnswood and Dawsons Corner are single carriageway.

I notice that whoever planned the ring road in the first place has left plenty of space either side (between Lawnswood and Dawson's corner) for another 2 lanes.

The problem here is that the some of the stretch from Horsforth Woodside up to the junction with Stanhope drive has been made into residental car parking not so long ago. I can't see that being undone.

There's no reason that they can't widen other parts though (other than cost etc...)

Leeds Lad,

I heard about the Leeds East Orbital some years back, it is my belief though that any new road needs to reach the airport from East Leeds and the A1(M) area as a minimum. It would be ideal if the road could then go on towards Bradford.

I often Look at Leeds and think of a massave Heart, if the roads were the vains, Leeds would be dead. Leeds Central and South Leeds are served well by road links where as the roads in the whole of the Northern part of the city are dreadful. The council really need to wake up and crack on with sorting this out.

Thanks Smart - when you say 'it is my belief that' - do you mean your opinion, or do you mean this is what is planned? What did you hear about the East Leeds Orbital Route - any plans on the net - anyone else heard of it? It must be kinda likely if Thorpe Park has it on their map?
Also anyone know what is happening with this next phase of the inner ring road? A map would be handy...

Two lanes of traffic in each direction, separated carriageways, roundabouts and traffic-light controlled junctions = dual carriageway??

It's simpler than that. Separated carriageways = dual carriageway.

Thanks Smart - when you say 'it is my belief that' - do you mean your opinion, or do you mean this is what is planned? What did you hear about the East Leeds Orbital Route - any plans on the net - anyone else heard of it? It must be kinda likely if Thorpe Park has it on their map?
Also anyone know what is happening with this next phase of the inner ring road? A map would be handy...

Leeds Lad, It was just my opinion of where any new road should go.

I did see a plan of the Leeds East Orbital, some years back now though, probably pre M1 - A1(M) link road days.

A couple of years back the local rag (and possibly 'BBC Look North' featured the A65 becoming the next major West/East road, possibly becoming motorway standard. The new motorway would then breakaway from the Ilkley area and go on towards the A1(M). I stress this was some years back now and whether anything will ever come of it I don't know. :)

A motorway out towards Ilkey linking Leeds & the motorway network with the Yorkshire Dales will sureley be a success, and take alot of traffic off the ountry roads as well as filtering it well. It could act in a similar way to the motorways out of Manchester to the peak district, or the M55 to Blackpool- it could also serve the airport. It would certainly be good, but I doubt it will ever happen, or at least not soon.

Leeds Lad, It was just my opinion of where any new road should go.

I did see a plan of the Leeds East Orbital, some years back now though, probably pre M1 - A1(M) link road days.

A couple of years back the local rag (and possibly 'BBC Look North' featured the A65 becoming the next major West/East road, possibly becoming motorway standard. The new motorway would then breakaway from the Ilkley area and go on towards the A1(M). I stress this was some years back now and whether anything will ever come of it I don't know. :)



There was discussion around 7or 8 years ago about which side of Leeds a new orbital motorway would go.East or West. Eventually it was decided that east of Leeds was preferable for environmental reasons, and the extention to the M1 joining the A1 was built.

I Figured This Was The Best Place To Put My Idea I Know Its A Little Extreme And It Would Never Happen Well Not Without Alot Of Demolition

It Was Made Quickly As You Can Tell But Here Goes

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/4208330/220/4208330.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/4208330)

Click For Full Image

[img=http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/4208330/img/4208330.jpg] (http://picturepush.com/public/4208330)

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/4208330/img/Anonymous/LCR-orbital-Motorways.jpg

Awesome :lol: but I'm afraid a few of your routes are a little unnessecary!

As for the M606 I wish they would extend it to at least Bradford city centre...

I can't imagine Mr and Mrs Harewood House being too happy with a motorway running past their grounds. As someone who uses the roads round there every day, they are busy at the rush hour but generally quiet at other times, therefore I don't see a real demand. The North side of Leeds ring road on the other hand links a large population and would benefit from an upgrade. Even the now duelled parts are often busy (e.g. round Crossgates - I think a bypass was planned at some point).

Basically, north Leeds/Bradford is busy with local traffic rather than cross country traffic and so I would reckon the effort would be best spent upgrading local routes rather than building motorways a few miles out of town.

p.s. I'm new to this forum, hello!!

There was discussion around 7or 8 years ago about which side of Leeds a new orbital motorway would go.East or West. Eventually it was decided that east of Leeds was preferable for environmental reasons, and the extention to the M1 joining the A1 was built.

Um, the M1 extension opened over 11 years ago. :)

I have seen old maps with a proposed route going between Leeds and Bradford though.

Good luck building a motorway from Harrogate to Skipton!! It's a bit wild on the A59!

Good luck building a motorway from Harrogate to Skipton!! It's a bit wild on the A59!

I can't see the USAF / NSA being too pleased with a motorway running past Menwith Hill. Also surely having a motorway running through National Parks would be extremely difficult if not impossible and of course some of those motorways do run on rather indirect routes (eg: wouldn't it be better to run the M64 alongside the A19 between York and the top of the M18 past Selby as opposed to a longwinded route via Market Weighton.

Still I do certainly support the idea of road improvements (although funding is unfortunately limited if non existant at the moment) provided it doesn't come at the expense of public transport improvements and doesn't ruin urban or rural environs. I guess a much better option to improve the road network around Leeds would be to give existing roads piecemeal upgrades (eg: dualling the whole of the outer ring road) whilst providing bypasses and new alignments where neccessary (such as a fast dual carriageway link between Dawsons Corner and the M62 round Drighlington way as a way of improving links to Leeds Bradford Airport and reducing traffic on the present Leeds and Bradford ring roads.

Still I do certainly support the idea of road improvements (although funding is unfortunately limited if non existant at the moment) provided it doesn't come at the expense of public transport improvements and doesn't ruin urban or rural environs. I guess a much better option to improve the road network around Leeds would be to give existing roads piecemeal upgrades (eg: dualling the whole of the outer ring road) whilst providing bypasses and new alignments where neccessary (such as a fast dual carriageway link between Dawsons Corner and the M62 round Drighlington way as a way of improving links to Leeds Bradford Airport and reducing traffic on the present Leeds and Bradford ring roads.

Duel carriageway between Horsforth and Dawsons corner would be a start. The queues there are daft at rush hour all because it changes between 1 and 2 lanes at each roundabout.

http://i55.tinypic.com/4gl10x.png
my proposal

We've already got half an orbital; infact the A1/M1 Link was named 'SE Leeds Orbital'. We don't need another motorway to the South or SE.

Best we can hope for is a motorway link one day between the M62 and Airport.

Personally/realistically i would upgrade the ringroad and build a new motoway extention to the airport, i've picked a route that wouldn't disturb any existing buildings in the Extention to the airport.

Here it is...

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz325/melfiire/SnapShot1.png

http://i55.tinypic.com/4gl10x.png
my proposal

I know it's hypothetical but what would be the point in building a new motorway adjacent to existing motorways? I'm talking about the southern half, there's the M62 and M1 both there, that sort of already act as an orbital motorway, as someone has mentioned.

And you're not running a motorway past my house. You've also run it straight over Oulton Hall, De Veres won't be happy.

Were there ever any official plans for a Outer ring road motorway for Leeds, ala M25/M60?

Troll's proposal looks the most beneficial, and the spur off to the Airport and out to York would be lovely.
I wish they'd upgrade the A643 (between the M621 and the IRR A64(M).
Oh and whilst you're at it, extend the M606 in to Bradford City Centre and up to Skipton please! :)

M25 is an orbital - it goes around London.

M60 is the outer ring road - it does not go all the way around Manchester.

They are different.

M25 is an orbital - it goes around London.

M60 is the outer ring road - it does not go all the way around Manchester.

They are different.

Barely! :nuts:

M25 is an orbital - it goes around London.

M60 is the outer ring road - it does not go all the way around Manchester.

They are different.

And if you wanted to be really pedantic, you could argue that the M25 isn't an orbital as it isn't complete. The Dartford crossing is actually the A282!!

I'm not totally convinced there is a need for an orbital motorway. I do think the outer ring road should be dual carriageway tho.

I'm not sure if there were any official plans for an orbital as such, but there have been plans for motorways encircling Leeds before (like how Birmingham is now).

The M65 originally was supposed to relieve the M62 and run across the north side of Bradford and Leeds from its current terminus to the A1(M). I also believe a motorway was proposed at one point to link the M62 and M65 which would have made it possible to circle Leeds by motorway.

Other plans I've heard about were the extension of the M1 which was originally meant to bulldoze its way through Chapeltown and out towards Roundhay Glasgow-style. Also I'm not sure if the M606 was supposed to terminate in Bradford City Centre. Its current terminus is a junction short anyway, but I think that was supposed to go through north Bradford to the M65 also..

The signs on the M25 state - London orbital.

The signs on the M60 state - Manchester outer ring road.

A Manchester orbital would be a further 5 - 10 miles out.

I'm not totally convinced there is a need for an orbital motorway. I do think the outer ring road should be dual carriageway tho.

I agree, but I don't think many orbital motorways are needed per say, they are just desirable for transport times. A motorway from the M62 to the airport would, in fairness, drastically speed up connections from the airport, Harrogate, Skipton, Wharfedale, Airedale, Guiseley/Menston/Yeadon and the respective sides of Leeds and Bradford to the M62.

It would speed up connections, but in a country where nationally important routes like the A14 get built as rather sub-standard dual carriageways, expecting a motorway standard spur (from an already terribly congested motorway) through the hilly terrain to the west of Leeds just to serve a fairly small airport is bound to result in disappointment. The M1-A1 link replaced the other motorways planned around Leeds after the scrapping of the Aire Valley/Trans-Pennine motorway plans so no motorway around the whole of Leeds would take place either as it would serve no real purpose. I think we can just about forget anything like the completion of the M606 across Bradford, such hugely destructive urban motorway schemes have long since fallen from favour and with good reason.

An on-line upgrade of the ring road to full motorway as suggested by some could never happen either what with it being lined with houses, which would all have to be demolished and large grade-separated junctions would need to be built. Filling the gaps with dual carriageway is already an aim AFAIK if funding can be obtained.

I don't expect any new road to the airport to be a motorway, and more importantly, I don't think a new road on the route I suggest would have it's main reason as an airport link road. Any business case would have to draw upon the fact that both West Leeds and East Bradford are congested, traffic north of Leeds/Bradford has to pass through the City Centres to reach the motorway network etc etc...

Other plans I've heard about were the extension of the M1 which was originally meant to bulldoze its way through Chapeltown and out towards Roundhay Glasgow-style.

A friend of mine at school studied Geography A level and came into possession of a map showing the plan for the M1. It ran up Great Wilson Street, Crown Point Road, Marsh Lane and onto Burmantofts Street. I don't think it ran very far along Burmantofts Street, but can't be sure. I've never been able to track down another copy of that map.

Sounds like the eastern flank of the inner ring road as originally proposed. There is an embankment in the middle of the gyaratory at M621 J3 which was supposed to carry the first section of it, I believe it would have finished up at the Woodpecker so makes sense.

M25 is an orbital - it goes around London.

M60 is the outer ring road - it does not go all the way around Manchester.

They are different.

In a parallel universe, maybe. :lol: The M25 doesn't form a complete loop around London (it's broken by the Dartford Crossing), whereas the M60 does completely circumnavigate Manchester...

In a parallel universe, maybe. :lol: The M25 doesn't form a complete loop around London (it's broken by the Dartford Crossing), whereas the M60 does circumnavigate Manchester...

Take it up with the highways agency.

It was them that put the road signs up.

Find your own London one but the Manc one is not an orbital motorway and you will never find the highways agency describing it as such.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcjones/3816907762/

Take it up with the highways agency.

It was them that put the road signs up.

Find your own London one but the Manc one is not an orbital motorway and you will never find the highways agency describing it as such.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcjones/3816907762/

Sorry but, who actually cares? :lol:

Take it up with the highways agency.

I have no beef with the Highways Agency. I'm just curious as to where you think the gap in the M60 is...

In a parallel universe, maybe. :lol: The M25 doesn't form a complete loop around London (it's broken by the Dartford Crossing), whereas the M60 does completely circumnavigate Manchester...

Yes, it does.

I don't care what LNGCats calls it - orbital, outer ring road, circular, whatever - it is continuous without any gaps. I know: I've driven round it many times (not all the way round at once, of course).

The only bit that I feel they did on the cheap is Junction 18, where you often have to wait at traffic lights or take a slip road.

Getting back on topic, though, I do feel that Leeds' outer ring road could be improved by being dual carriageway all the way round: there are still bits of single-lane road, I believe. However, I don't think the northern half really needs to be motorway, so long as junctions are laid out as slip roads rather than crossroads or roundabouts.

I have no beef with the Highways Agency. I'm just curious as to where you think the gap in the M60 is...

I didn't say that the M60 has a gap - certainly never meant to.

All I say is the M60 is a ring road and the M25 is an orbital motorway.

Nothing more. I was just correcting someone before yet for some reason it's been taken as more than it was meant.

ah - just read the posting.

The M60 does not go all the way around Manchester (whatever description you give Manchester, places like Northern Moor, Sharston, Baguley, Wythenshawe.... are all outside the M60).

There is plenty of Manchester outside of the M60 - hence it is a ring road and not an orbital (which would go around the outside).

Thats is all I was correcting initially.

The M60 - ring road goes through Manchester.

The M25 - orbital road goes around London.

You're reading more into it than was intended.

It definitely needs to be dualled entirely, but I agree - motorway is not needed.

The issue with the ORR is that it isn't really an ORR in many places anymore- the city has grown beyond it. It's no longer a bypass, but a road used by local traffic

M25 is an orbital - it goes around London.

M60 is the outer ring road - it does not go all the way around Manchester.

They are different.

To be more precise M25 goes around Greater London while M60 mainly around Manchester and Salford councils leaving out a huge part of Manchester's metropolitan area (aka Greater Manchester)

Why are you doing this?

Outside the M60 is a large part of Manchester local authority - Northern Moor, Wythensahawe, Sharston, Baguley etc etc.

Inside the M60 are about half of Trafford, a lot of Stockport, much of Tameside, much of Oldham and much of Salford.

Every GM borough is at least partially outside the M60 - Bolton, Rochdale and Wigan entirely so. Only Wigan does not boarder the motorway.

What point are you trying to make?

Why can the original post that the M60 does not go all the way around (the outside) of Manchester not be taken in the context it was meant?

ah - just read the posting.

The M60 does not go all the way around Manchester (whatever description you give Manchester, places like Northern Moor, Sharston, Baguley, Wythenshawe.... are all outside the M60).

There is plenty of Manchester outside of the M60 - hence it is a ring road and not an orbital (which would go around the outside).

Thats is all I was correcting initially.

Right, that makes more sense - you meant that it doesn't encircle all of Manchester, not that it doesn't go all the way around it.

(Though to play Devil's Advocate I should point out that parts of Greater London are outside the M25) :)

What I meant is it does not go all the way around all of Manchester. It doesn't.

Out of interest, which parts of Greater London are outside the M25?

Obviously there are parts inside the M25 that are NOT in Greater London such as Watford.

A small patch of largely rural land to the east of Upminster.

Btw, very good attempt at starting another little chat about boundaries. Subtle even, for you.

Urm - no, read back.

I simply pointed out the pedantic inaccuracy between an orbital and ring road as clearly people didn't get the difference.

Still, if people had have left it at that it would not have progressed would it?

Urm - no, read back.

I simply pointed out the pedantic inaccuracy between an orbital and ring road as clearly people didn't get the difference.

Still, if people had have left it at that it would not have progressed would it?

If you hadn't of brought it up at all then we wouldn't be talking about it...

What I meant is it does not go all the way around all of Manchester. It doesn't.

Now it makes sense! :lol:

Out of interest, which parts of Greater London are outside the M25?

Not much - just a bit of Enfield to the north, Havering to the east, and Hillingdon to the west. I think there used to be more, but some boundaries were changed to follow the M25 in the 1990s.

I don't really think it matters... nor do I think anyone cares. To most people it's just another road. Outer Ring Road.. Orbital... who cares what it's called.

If you hadn't of brought it up at all then we wouldn't be talking about it...

You made a mistake in post 39 - I corrected it in post 40.

It could have been left there, others decided to take it on.

None of this matters.

Leeds doesn't need an orbital motorway and it's never going to happen - okay?

None of this matters.

Leeds doesn't need an orbital motorway and it's never going to happen - okay?

But it does need a modern dual carriageway network around the city. Last night I travelled home on the Ring Road from Owlcoates to Lawnswood. It took nearly 40 mins and was stop/start all the way. The western part of the RR is so inadequate with just one lane from Owlcoates to Rodley. There is the space to build a 4 lane highway on much of the RR, but why it has not happenend over the last 20 years or so is crazy. Traffic has just got worse and the hold ups get longer and longer

But it does need a modern dual carriageway network around the city. Last night I travelled home on the Ring Road from Owlcoates to Lawnswood. It took nearly 40 mins and was stop/start all the way. The western part of the RR is so inadequate with just one lane from Owlcoates to Rodley. There is the space to build a 4 lane highway on much of the RR, but why it has not happenend over the last 20 years or so is crazy. Traffic has just got worse and the hold ups get longer and longer

Hear, hear.

There are two reasons for this, in my humble opinion. As I mentioned earlier, the entire ring road (or whatever anyone would like to call it!) needs to be dual carriageway. The part going north towards the airport could, possibly, be motorway.

Perhaps more importantly (again, I think I mentioned this), all junctions should be via slip roads - no roundabouts, no traffic lights. These things are, I believe, what cause all the hold-ups.

Hear, hear.

There are two reasons for this, in my humble opinion. As I mentioned earlier, the entire ring road (or whatever anyone would like to call it!) needs to be dual carriageway.

Agreed. Ring road is the correct term, despite, it not forming a complete ring (mind you, a lot of ring roads don't).

The part going north towards the airport could, possibly, be motorway.

I disagree. Urban motorways (e.g. A59(M) and A64(M)) are seen as mistakes of the past - in London they got rid of theirs...

Perhaps more importantly (again, I think I mentioned this), all junctions should be via slip roads - no roundabouts, no traffic lights. These things are, I believe, what cause all the hold-ups.

Grade separation would help, but requires a lot of civil engineering and land take.

I disagree. Urban motorways (e.g. A59(M) and A64(M)) are seen as mistakes of the past - in London they got rid of theirs...

It is actually the A58(M), does that warrant a pilchard point? ;) Whyever they are called that.

Are you referring to the scrapping of the ringway plans for London?

It is actually the A58(M), does that warrant a pilchard point? ;) Whyever they are called that.

They're for exposing my arrant hypocrisy as a Grammar Nazi, so spelling and syntax only, I'm afraid.

Are you referring to the scrapping of the ringway plans for London?

No, the West Cross Route (M41) and the East Cross Route (A102(M), in two sections either side of the Thames), which were both downgraded to A roads.

EDIT: As well as the A40(M) Westway.

Well, the downgrading of roads doesn't really change them does it? The road is still there. If they were demolished/radically remodelled that would make a real difference but changing a road class is meaningless really.

They're for exposing my arrant hypocrisy as a Grammar Nazi, so spelling and syntax only, I'm afraid.



No, the West Cross Route (M41) and the East Cross Route (A102(M), in two sections either side of the Thames), which were both downgraded to A roads.

EDIT: As well as the A40(M) Westway.

Doesn't A59(M) instead of A58(M) qualify as a spelling error?

As far as I can gather, they only did that because when Transport for London was established, it was created without the ability to be an authority in charge of motorways due to some error in the legislation. Since it became the authority for all the non-trunk/Highways Agency major roads in London (which includes the mentioned roads) upon its establishment, the roads mentioned were downgraded.

Plus what Leeds No.1 said.

I don't see why people want to get rid of the A58(M)? It's one of the best inner-city ring roads I know, being sunken/tunnel it doesn't really 'cut-off' the city centre to the North that much, especially with the amount of bridges over it. Plus it makes my journey from Bradford to York that bit easier!

Well, the downgrading of roads doesn't really change them does it? The road is still there. If they were demolished/radically remodelled that would make a real difference but changing a road class is meaningless really.

Not totally meaningless - it means they're no longer prohibited to a number of vehicles.

Yeah but it's pretty meaningless to the urban fabric. What does it mean for traffic? That cyclists can now use Westway getting them off the city streets? Oh joy.

As for the A58(M), I don't think anyone particularly wants to get rid of it. Better integration would be welcome though- covering it over in more places would be desirable.

Pretty sure that at least some of the former London motorways are still not all purpose roads. Roads like the Westway, West Cross Route and the Blackwall Tunnel are still somewhat unsuited to cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders!

there's no need for an orbital motorway, and the existing ORR is merely for transport between outer areas of Leeds. Dual carriageway will be quite enough