There are already a few under construction or as parts of projects under construction, but I would guess the next one to start will be the 28 storey Mayfair development - and thats taking into account how long Bridgewater Place took to start.

End of discussion then

There are already a few under construction or as parts of projects under construction, but I would say the next one to start will be the 28 storey Mayfair development.

I agree - now that the amended application has gained approval.
Next could even be Criterion (surprise?) in early 2006 followed by second phase of Plaza. Clarence House and Gateway will then battle it out for next.

I agree - now that the amended application has gained approval.
Next could even be Criterion (surprise?) in early 2006 followed by second phase of Plaza. Clarence House and Gateway will then battle it out for next.
If today's Construction News is to be believed, a planning application has been submitted for the 52-storey Venture Tower. Maybe that will go up before Criterion Place.

If today's Construction News is to be believed, a planning application has been submitted for the 52-storey Venture Tower. Maybe that will go up before Criterion Place.

zippedy doo daah, etc etc

If the Venture Tower pp has gone in, then crack open the champers kids, Linfoot seems dead set on getting it up (so to speak) as soon as possible. Looking forward to seeing the new render in Construction News at the weekend (although I don't have a scanner I'm afraid).

I think Globe Road is locked for early next year (marketing underway etc), Clarence House will be 2006 certainly, and if Mayfair is okay (and not suffering the same inflated construction cost issues as Northern Ballet - although as a private enterprise therefore not reliant on Lottery grants etc) then that will be on the go.

First start on site - be it demolition or actual construction on empty sites, well I'd say it will be Clarence House. No insider knowledge, but if as I posted last week that all the apartments have been sold to a private investor, then Berkley/Crosby now have guaranteed cash coming in and therefore no reason to sit around twiddling their fingers.

I think Clarence House too, as it is ready to go at any time, and is certainly not going to be subject to any financial delays. Although Mayfair could start before the end of the year as they are also ready to go if the sums now add up.

Plaza and Globe Road both look set to go, but probably in later phases, perhaps Plaza in late 06 and Globe in 07 ?

My list would go like this:

1. Clarence House
2. Mayfair
3. The Plaza
4. Venture Tower
5. Globe Road
6. Criterion

...........any of them starting soon would be a welcome addition to the Leeds landscape

1. Mayfair
2. Clarence House
3. The Plaza tower

I not expecting any of the others to be built at all (hoping to be proved wrong)

Well I am expecting pretty much all of them to be built sometime within the next 5 years. Probably with either Mayfair or The Plaza Tower starting next, with Clarence House and Venture towers soon after. I don't know about Criterion Place, haven't heard much about it. Globe Road Tallest Phase I expect to see in 2007

I expect Gateway 26 storey tower to start in the second phase in about 18 months time.

Incidentally there is another 26 storey tower in prospect in the SJS Temple Quarter, Holbeck, scheme.

1. Mayfair
2. Clarence House
3. The Plaza tower

I not expecting any of the others to be built at all (hoping to be proved wrong)

that's frighteningly defeatist Talisker. Globe Road is already marketed, City 1 seems to be pushing on, although with no renders, and Venture Towers seem to be on the go (I saw construction weekly today and saw the render of the towers from city square and announcement - although unconfirmed - that planning permission was to be submitted). Of all the schemes, Criterion looks the least likely on the basis of a total lack of concrete news since it be first announced. The rest have just as much chance as each other in regard to getting built.

things might be happening behind the scenes at Criterion Place. If unfourtanetley it doesnt go ahead, I'll be dissapointed but with this area of the city so fast growing and to become even more attractive for business with BWP, I'm suer development of this site is inevitable- especially with its close links to the station.

things might be happening behind the scenes at Criterion Place. If unfourtanetley it doesnt go ahead, I'll be dissapointed but with this area of the city so fast growing and to become even more attractive for business with BWP, I'm suer development of this site is inevitable- especially with its close links to the station.


I think no news is good news. Construction was in any case not due to start until 2006.

Yeh I know. The hoardings are still up. I suppose its better than bad news. At least we know its not being cancelled, as we would have heard. It is still listed on the websites involved with it.

Criterion is a dead cert IMO, stop worrying!

1. Mayfair
2. Clarence House
3. The Plaza tower

I not expecting any of the others to be built at all (hoping to be proved wrong)

That's an interesting point of view. What makes you think as you do?

The housing market growth has slowed recently and there is not an infinite number of people looking to buy city centre highrise housing. Many of those people have already bought appartments in other large scale (but poor) developments like west point, brewery wharf and whitehall quays. It's just a question of there being enough demand left for developments like CP and the new west point tower, especially bearing in mind that the high quality of these towers will increase costs and squeeze profit margins. Obviously this is a rather controversial view, and I'd be delighted to hear any figures that would prove me wrong.

The housing market growth has slowed recently and there is not an infinite number of people looking to buy city centre highrise housing. Many of those people have already bought appartments in other large scale (but poor) developments like west point, brewery wharf and whitehall quays. It's just a question of there being enough demand left for developments like CP and the new west point tower, especially bearing in mind that the high quality of these towers will increase costs and squeeze profit margins. Obviously this is a rather controversial view, and I'd be delighted to hear any figures that would prove me wrong.

I agree with what you say about the slowdown in the housing market recently, and the quality of some recent developments. Set against those points however, we have the recent indications of a slight upturn in the housing market. More fundamentally, the two key drivers are the trend over the last half century towards smaller households, and the drive of the governments of John Major and Tony Blair to limit new building development to brownfield sites.

I agree with what you say about the slowdown in the housing market recently, and the quality of some recent developments. Set against those points however, we have the recent indications of a slight upturn in the housing market. More fundamentally, the two key drivers are the trend over the last half century towards smaller households, and the drive of the governments of John Major and Tony Blair to limit new building development to brownfield sites.

The real question is : Can a city like Leeds sustain the number of flats which have been built/ under construction and in the pipeline - literally thousands ? The trend to smaller households is indeed a long-term trend (e.g. from 3.1 in 1961 to 2.4 now - a drop of 23% in average size) but it is a long-term trend as opposed to the quite recent spate in building of these flats. Also a large part of that reduction in size is due to increasing longevity and you won't find many old people wanting city centre flats ! To be frank, I am not too sure as to the answer to that question and the resulting effect on prices. However, if it is sustainable, one possible benefit, which no one has as yet mentioned, is the reduction in commuting traffic which an increase in city living must bring.

The real question is : Can a city like Leeds sustain the number of flats which have been built/ under construction and in the pipeline - literally thousands ? The trend to smaller households is indeed a long-term trend (e.g. from 3.1 in 1961 to 2.4 now - a drop of 23% in average size) but it is a long-term trend as opposed to the quite recent spate in building of these flats. Also a large part of that reduction in size is due to increasing longevity and you won't find many old people wanting city centre flats ! To be frank, I am not too sure as to the answer to that question and the resulting effect on prices. However, if it is sustainable, one possible benefit, which no one has as yet mentioned, is the reduction in commuting traffic which an increase in city living must bring.

It's a very interesting question. We were actually talking about this very thing at the meet up a while ago. I certainly doubt that the level of city centre resi development is sustainable both in Leeds and most other major UK cities. I think it can be split down into 2 sections though, the identikit flats which are bought mainly by investors and as such are commodity items. As with all commodities they are highly succeptible to fluctuations in the economy and all it will take is an increase in interest rates or a rising of the stock market to move investors onwards from property.

The smaller character developments such as Simpsons Fold, Round Foundary and Roberts Wharf are always going to find buyers however as they are niche products and by definition always limited in number.

I do think that some of the big developers are going to get their fingers very badly burnt in the not to distant future on large scale resi development, I certainly don't subscribe to the ever optimistic No 1s view that because developers do research this will not happen! :D

When I made that point I meant that the development wouldn't be built if it wasn't going to make a profit.
I think the amount of apartments and penthouses being built is sustainable- I'm sure alot of people would happily live in the city centre. Its the prices which turn people away, when, and if, they come down I think more people will want to live in the city centre. Venture Tower is designed for 'wealthy pensioners' anyway.

I think the amount of apartments and penthouses being built is sustainable- I'm sure alot of people would happily live in the city centre. Its the prices which turn people away, when, and if, they come down I think more people will want to live in the city centre. Venture Tower is designed for 'wealthy pensioners' anyway.

Prices,yes. will deter a lot of people. Also, so far, lack of basic amenities though no doubt these will come as the population mass increases. Didn't know that about Venture Tower - any literature which says that it is specifically designed for 'wealthy pensioners' apart of course from the price?
There must still be a limit to that specific market especially as so many in this country still like to have their own gardens. As a pensioner myself (not wealthy!) I can see the advantage of living amidst all the city centre attractions - until I remember that one of the biggest of those attractions (apparently), binge drinking and the mayhem that follows every weekend, would put me and my wife off completely !

When I made that point I meant that the development wouldn't be built if it wasn't going to make a profit.

Yes I know what you were saying but life is not that simple! The lead time between starting a major development and finishing it is often several years. As a result developers need to take an educated gamble on factors such as what will happen to interest rates and material prices etc. in that time. Because of the timescales involved these factors may change considerably. As with all gambles, it may go wrong.

As a result a development can start with a tidy profit forecast and end up making a loss. This can and will happen, look at the Wembley project, the main contractor have made a huge loss on it.

If what you're saying is true, no business would ever go bust! All business is a gamble, some businesses will be willing to take a risk if they feel that the potential gains are large enough whereas others take a lower risk strategy where they're happy to get lower returns which are far more predictable.

Johnathan Morgan (albeit with a large vested interest) has estimated that Leeds can sustain a core city centre population of 10,000-12,000. We are nowhere near that number yet.

Leeds No.1 is correct in that residential buildings do not get built unless they are profitable commercial transactions - most new builds expect a substantial pre-let before a shovelful of soil is moved. Speculative building happens, but only in the office market. Office take-up is much more sensitive to the prevailing economic conditions - people will always need somewhere to live, be that in the city or the suburbs.

Prices are an interesting one. If you consider the city centre to be "upmarket" like say, Roundhay or Moortown then prices are not much different. In fact, I'd go as far to say that you'd get more for your money, bang in the centre than in leafy Roundhay. Prices in desirable areas are always higher than elsewhere.

Fred2:
http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1104664

Leeds thinks big with 520ft glass skyscraper
Most ambitious project yet in regeneration of city centre will include shops, offices and homes
EXCLUSIVE
David Parkin
Business Editor
A GLASS skyscraper which will be the tallest building in the North East of England is set to transform the skyline of Leeds.
The tower, which will be at least 516ft tall and will cost £200m, is said to be the most ambitious project yet in Leeds and will include "prime pads" designed for wealthy pensioners wanting to live in the city centre.
The as-yet-unnamed project is being developed jointly by Yorkshire-based residential developer KW Linfoot and Scarborough Development Group, which is owned by Sheffield United FC chairman Kevin McCabe.
It will be built on land between Wellington Street and Whitehall Road next to the redeveloped former Royal Mail building as part of a regeneration zone called West Point.
Space has been made available for a health centre – the first in the city centre – and dentist within the 52-storey building which would include offices and 650 luxury apartments as well as shops, cafes and restaurants.
A similar 26-storey glass tower 295 ft in height would be built next door to it containing 100 serviced apartments and around 100,000 sq ft of office space.
The two would be linked by a central piazza and gardens.
The building would be taller than Bridgewater Place, the 30-storey project being built on Water Lane in Leeds and also taller than Criterion Place, a planned twin glass towers development on Sovereign Street.
The proposals, which were recently presented to Leeds City Council's City Centre Planning Panel, have been met with enthusiasm and the developers are to apply for detailed planning permission before the end of this year.
If the building gets the go-ahead from the city council construction could begin as early as next summer with completion anticipated in 2009.
Kevin Linfoot, founder of KW Linfoot, said the project "would be the pinnacle of my career".
"It will be an iconic building for Leeds which will be the way forward. It's the top of my career to do something like this, I'll never do anything this big again."
Mr Linfoot said he has spent 18 months developing the project, looking at skyscrapers in cities such as New York and Miami.
"We had to create models of the building and the others around it so they could be tested for the reflection of the sun off the glass and test the design in a special wind tunnel in New York because when the wind hits the top of the building, by the time it reaches the bottom it would be travelling at 120 mph – that would knock pedestrians off their feet!"
Richard Dean, development director for K W Linfoot, said: "We are delighted to have received such a positive response from the panel. Our design approach has very much focused on providing a remarkable landmark that the city and its residents can be proud of."
He added: "A unique new element that we are proposing to incorporate is a series of 'prime pads' that will provide bespoke homes for the 50-plus age market."
Mr Dean said the developers would work closely with with Leeds City Council Planning, the civic architect, the Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment and English Heritage to ensure that the scheme maintained the values and qualities fundamental to the city's prosperity.

Johnathan Morgan (albeit with a large vested interest) has estimated that Leeds can sustain a core city centre population of 10,000-12,000. We are nowhere near that number yet.

It can sustain that number, but the question is, is the demand there? I dunno that it is.

Leeds No.1 is correct in that residential buildings do not get built unless they are profitable commercial transactions - most new builds expect a substantial pre-let before a shovelful of soil is moved. Speculative building happens, but only in the office market. Office take-up is much more sensitive to the prevailing economic conditions - people will always need somewhere to live, be that in the city or the suburbs.


Developers will certainly reduce their risk exposure by pre selling or pre letting a substantial number of resi units before anything gets started, but I'd be amazed if every resi development has actually pre sold enough to guarantee a profit before anything kicks. There is always going to be an element of speculation with any development whether commercial or resi even if everything is pre sold/pre let due to changing costs and changing opportunity costs.

Well looking at the state of the higher quality or prime developments such as BWP, Brewery Wharf, Clarence Dock, City Island..etc which are more or less sold out, I think its pretty likeley it is sustainable for quite a while. I expect to see most buildign projects become commercial rather than residential by about 2010, looking at the amont of residential projects, unless demand increases...

Fred2:
http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1104664

... to be the most ambitious project yet in Leeds and will include "prime pads" designed for wealthy pensioners wanting to live in the city centre....




Perhaps as a second home ?
Thsnaks for the source, Leeds No.1.

I don't think it is widely known that Leeds nearly had a 36 storey building in Westgate as long ago as 1971. But the city council had cold feet and it it was watered down to 4-5 storeys !