I'd better start by saying that I love Manchester and am an avid reader of this site. I am steadily touring all the major UK cities and making comparisons. Manchester has much going for it but maintains one big fundamental problem - there is no district within 2/3 miles of city that is attractive to the 0ver-35 year old middle-class person. The city centre has only 1-3 bed apartments - no good for families or anyone who needs facilities or public open space. The inner suburbs until you get to Withington are dominated by students or the terminally poor. Whalley Range has nice houses but few facilities and is too close to Moss Side. Contrast this with Newcastle-upon Tyne, where I have just been for a short stay. Jesmond is just 2 miles north of the city centre, two stops on the Metro line. Street after street of lovely Victorian houses, restaurants, chic shops, parks, a wooded valley, tennis club, cricket club, and more. The area is populated by all generations, it feels as safe and quiet as suburbia but has the life and soul of the inner city due to it's proximity. Heaton is also a lively inner district, not as wealthy as Jesmond but still offering facilities, good housing, transport and a sense of community. Bristol has similar in Clifton and Redcliffe. It's a real eye-opener to what Manchester is lacking - our inner areas are almost universally pants so the middle class head for Didsbury and beyond - too far from the city to give it a sophisticated and stable community. Ancoats urban village may offer hope, but it will not succeed if it is designed for and populated solely by the same under-35, single, transient, partying crowd as in the CBD. Cities must be inclusive - the middle-class/middle-aged need a part of the action too. I am 46 and would like to think I will still enjoy urban life for many years to come, but I remain worried that this fundamental flaw will undermine what Manchester wants to achieve- comparison with the best in UK/Europe..

In the outer suburbs, there are plenty of new family 4 bed homes going up. There are loads going up along the M61 between Bolton and Salford.

Victoria Park?

In fact there are plenty of townhouse/single dwelling estates going up around the city core. Even hulme has a few nice estates. Trinity riverside is another. Are you only looking for victorian /edwardian posh terraces? (to be honest I could'nt be arsed to read all of your post due to the few empty stella cans knocking about ;))

Interesting post, but I couldn't afford anywhere within 3 miles of Manchester City Centre anyway, so I expect it's not only over 35's that it's pricing out of the market. On the contrary they've probably got more chance than the rest of us ;)

i was thinking chorlton but its a bit 'funky'

i live 2 miles from the city centre in irlams-oth-height, it used to be a scally ridden area but its on the up now. Its quite a pleasant victorian area with many-a parks. You might know where it is, near pendlton collge?

Roverman has a point. The bar scene in Manchester downtown seems to cater only to the 18-30's and that is very very bad. What self respecting couple would want to bring up a family there anyway? On the weekends about 150,000 youths descend on the city to cause mayhem, mainly because they have a football hooligan mentality and for some reason they can't hold their ale/lager like the 'older generation'. This is not a youth knocking event, I used to be one, and got into my own fair share of fights but there was a time when Manny catered to an eclectic mix of all ages because the night-life offered a fantastic variety for punters of varied tastes (and persuations).
The cabaret clubs and casinos were the envy of the country and drew crowds in from other cities from as far away as Leeds, Liverpool and Sheffield. Manchester was a magnet from the 50's to the 70's until bible-punching police-chief Anderton decided to 'clean up the debauchery' and heavily influenced the restrictive changes to Britain's gaming laws which was also a very very bad thing. It was the revenue from casinos (most of the big cabaret clubs in M/cr and Salford had them) that financed the top-drawer entertainment that pulled in the huge crowds even during the week.
If the city provides the facilities to attract the older family units we will eventually re-kindle the magic that made it the favourite city for nightlife in the north. The venues are all in situ, 20,000 seat and 10,000 arenas for the big indoor concerts, 76,000 and 50,000 stadia for the mega outdoor events, lots of theatres and concert halls. All we need are more pubs and clubs that are friendly once more to the 30-65 age group and we've cracked it. You'll start getting the retirees and semi retirees with coin to spend and can fucking put away their pop (and puff) without puking in the gutter and knocking shit out of each other, and what's more, a lot of these older dudes will want to live in town because they hate driving in todays rat-race.
I'm not saying to completely eliminate the younger crowd, but when there's an even mix of ages it tends to be self-policing and can even have a calming effect in 'powder-keg' situations.
I hope some responsible person will copy/paste this post and forward it to MCC so they can get some ideas on how to run this town :)

i live 2 miles from the city centre in irlams-oth-height, it used to be a scally ridden area but its on the up now. Its quite a pleasant victorian area with many-a parks. You might know where it is, near pendlton collge?
I mostly go down the A580 through Irlam to goto Manchester. Seems like a pretty good place. The brief bit of it I see is some old fashioned shops and a park. Your lucky to live there.

roverman, I can think of several suburbs within a couple of miles of the CC where plenty of families live, in fact many families live in Whalley Range, and Moss Side may not be Didsbury but it doesn't merit half the reputation it has. Old Trafford is within a mile of town and again many families live there. The City Centre is not family oriented at all, no good size park, no school as such, prohibitive parking and extortionate prices for what is in effect just a new box with windows. The council must realize before its too late that by just catering for the 20-35 yr age groups withn the city centre its gonna come unstuck, it's not sustainable, these people do not create communities as they are never laying down roots for too long. I don't think theres a shortage of housing appropriate for families just outside town, its more a case that the city council would rather spend our Coucil Tax on the centre of town.

Oh and while your at it roverman, you say Manchester has MUCH going for it. Could you enlighten us? What do you find good about Manchester?

I'd better start by saying that I love Manchester and am an avid reader of this site. I am steadily touring all the major UK cities and making comparisons. Manchester has much going for it but maintains one big fundamental problem - there is no district within 2/3 miles of city that is attractive to the 0ver-35 year old middle-class person. The city centre has only 1-3 bed apartments - no good for families or anyone who needs facilities or public open space. The inner suburbs until you get to Withington are dominated by students or the terminally poor. Whalley Range has nice houses but few facilities and is too close to Moss Side. Contrast this with Newcastle-upon Tyne, where I have just been for a short stay. Jesmond is just 2 miles north of the city centre, two stops on the Metro line. Street after street of lovely Victorian houses, restaurants, chic shops, parks, a wooded valley, tennis club, cricket club, and more. The area is populated by all generations, it feels as safe and quiet as suburbia but has the life and soul of the inner city due to it's proximity. Heaton is also a lively inner district, not as wealthy as Jesmond but still offering facilities, good housing, transport and a sense of community. Bristol has similar in Clifton and Redcliffe. It's a real eye-opener to what Manchester is lacking - our inner areas are almost universally pants so the middle class head for Didsbury and beyond - too far from the city to give it a sophisticated and stable community. Ancoats urban village may offer hope, but it will not succeed if it is designed for and populated solely by the same under-35, single, transient, partying crowd as in the CBD. Cities must be inclusive - the middle-class/middle-aged need a part of the action too. I am 46 and would like to think I will still enjoy urban life for many years to come, but I remain worried that this fundamental flaw will undermine what Manchester wants to achieve- comparison with the best in UK/Europe..

Whose fault is it that you're middle class? Maybe Wilmslow might be your direction or Worsley.

what about the new estates that are going up in Beswick in East Manc. they look pretty good, maybe abit to funky for the middle aged thou.

that new didsbury thingie thats almost finished along (really withington) thats gotta be no more than 2 miles from town. they're expensive too.

Whally Range, although close to da Moss. there's some fookin dockoff massive victorian mansions knockin about. and u will find it is the middle classes that live in em.
some are goin for upto 1/2 million.

you will need private schools in the centre to entise the middle classes closer.
I wonder if any have plans, I know the council are up for it. but they wont fund anything private. it will have to be inclusive for all b4 they chuck any money at it.

roverman, I have never heard anything so obnoxious and pig ignorant. :bash:

Have you actually spent anytime in the areas of Manchester you mention and so hastily past judgement on with so little evidence or basis for your opinions? I grew up in a small but pleasant terraced house in Whalley Range (not the posh bit), my mother now lives in a larger house up the road in Chorlton and my father and his new wife have a really gorgeous house in Moss Side where they are very happy. Inner-suburbs (I think you mean 'Inner-city') have undergone drastic changes over the past twenty years, so much so that they are now more varied, diverse and affluent than those on the outskirts -and include the gorgeous old Victorian and Edwardian Houses, Parks alongside new modern ammenties and community facilaties. I cannot believe you didn't even give Hulme a mention - one pefect example of this, Cheetham Hill, Old Trafford, East Manchester and many others you may like to explore.

Manchester's 'Big Problem' is from the ignorance displayed by yourself by making stupid statements along the lines of "ohh noo...it's too close to Moss Side".

I've been to Jesmond and have family there, if anything it's bad for Newcastle that Jesmond is the only such "Didsbury-Outer-Outer-London Borough" area of it's kind in the city, whereas Manchester seems to have an array of vibrant, exciting and livable districts - Hulme, Moss Side, Whalley Range etc being included in that.

I know the council are up for it. but they wont fund anything private. it will have to be inclusive for all b4 they chuck any money at it.

LOL..and we cant have that can we..hmmm
I don't understand this idea that everywhere has to have Chic shops to be considered somewhere decent to live...why do people buy in to this crap?

Roverman outlines a problem which doesn't just affect Manchester. In Leeds city centre there are hundreds and hundreds of very expensive boxes going up OK for the 18-30 but no one else and cerftainly not families.

Roverman outlines a problem which doesn't just affect Manchester. In Leeds city centre there are hundreds and hundreds of very expensive boxes going up - OK for the 18-30 group but no one else and certainly not families. Good thing about Leeds however is (like Newcastle that someone mentioned) that it is smaller than Manchester and decent areas for older people and families to live are not all that far from the city centre - and not all that far from glorious countryside. :)

Manchester suffers from a dougnut (sp??) effect, rich centre and rich outer areas.

As soon as people can afford to they move out the the suburbs, e.g. southern Trafford, Bury, Stockport etc.

Turing this around, and making the inner part of Manchester a desirable place to live will be very very hard.

Places like Didsbury, Whalley Range etc may be on the up, and becoming much more desirable places, however, some places north of the city centre seem to be in terminal decline, Moston, Harpurhey are two examples. I really hope that when phase 3 eventually does go through these areas in the north some positive regeneration can happen such as did out towards Eccles.

Genuine question..
Is Moss side an okay area now then? I understand that it was a deprived and crime ridden area and that there has been an improvement. Its an interesting question as to how an area is 'perceived', and how this may hinder improvement.
Castle Vale in Birmingham was once a stay away kind of place, but it has had millions spent on improvements and has genuinely changed. On the other hand Lee Bank in Birmingham, another deprived place, had a name change as well as millions being invested. This is now known as Park Central, and those familiar with the B'Ham boards will know it. Maybe Moss Side should be re-named?..I agree with others who have said that it takes more than so-called 'chic' boutiques to make an area desirable.

Is Moss side an okay area now then?

Its not about 'now and then' its 'where and wat part' in moss side your talking about... :)

Moss Side is a billion times better than it used to be, as is Hulme which never got the bad press but was equally if not worse than Moss Side.

Having said that, given the oppurtunity, people do move out of the area when given the chance, it is certainly not a place where people aspire to live as say Didsbury, Alty or Hale.

I live in Sale, I can (and do) genuinely leave my front door wide open when I go across the road to do some shopping, even though I'm out off the house for 10mins and I cannot see the front door it is safe to do so (so far anyway), I suspect there are very very few places in the 'inner' part off Manchester where the same could be said.

Aslong as you dont live near the racecourse...then i suppose your alright... :D

I cant Believe how big it is...it reaches all the way to south trafford college not far from my residence...

Indeed, I used to live right next to it.

It was built by Manc City Council as 'over flow' to help move people out off the slums in central during the 60's and 70's when it really was shite around Moss Side / Hulme area.

Manchester's Victorian and Edwardian rich moved to Lytham St Annes. This is Manchester's leafy rich suburb.

The people who made money from the city have always turned their back on it.

Manchester's Victorian and Edwardian rich moved to Lytham St Annes. This is Manchester's leafy rich suburb.

The people who made money from the city have always turned their back on it.
Now who was it that said Manchester had "everything but a beach" :cheers:

You're quite right Isaac, a lot of Blackpool's earlier wealth was on the backs of day-trippers etc. from the Satanic Mills of the Manchester area.
The irony was that the rich mill-owners made money from them at work and exploited them at the sea-side as well. Worse off than slaves....

Actually i cant believe this guy has quoted Jesmond as a good area of Newcastle, yes it looked nice is leafy and has great shops, schools and services but it caters mainly for Students and Newcastles Elite with houses reachin the 600-700k mark with one street being developed for Bruce Oldfield (Diana's desgner as the blurb says) for between 1 and 2 million quid.

The better comparison is Gosforth which is much more family / elderly friendly with a less stuck-up image. Also the Great Park (traversty in both design and location) is only a few miles out linked by the Metro (i think) is better for the population segment he says.

Cheetham Hill Road has recently had loads of new houses built along it. Houses, not flats. Houses for anyone, families, students, middle aged and OAPs, just a 15 minute stroll from the centre of Manc.

Same is happening up Bury New Road too.

As for pubs, don't alot of city centre pubs have a generally older audience? Not all of them are overflowing with scallys pissed on Red Square.

I also spent a w/e in Newcastle recently with some friends who live in Heaton, which is just next to Jesmond. Both areas are very nice: the streets are clean, the houses well kept, nice mix of students and locals. The park you speak of (Jesmond Dene?) is fab. But they are both just down the road from Byker, which isn't very nice at all.

I used to live in London and it's the same: lovely areas cheek by jowel with pretty dodgy areas.

I always thought Heaton Chapel was very nice and that's not too far from the city centre (just up the A6)

Fantastic earlier post Sir Miles - you should clock that to the fathers yourself.

Weren't the Heatons nicked from Manny some time ago and placed within Stockport (though it's all the same to me - a lot of my most Manc of mates have been shipped out to reservations there due to very expensive south manchester).

Withy, although vibrant, has gotten very dark of late. Seems the main gin palace (white lion) is now a friggin asylum...yet many first time buyers would struggle to afford a flat on the old moat estate.?!?!?!?

there is no district within 2/3 miles of city that is attractive to the 0ver-35 year old middle-class person.

I'm a 36 year old (middle class?) person, and I'd happily live in West Park (Levenshulme), Victoria Park, Old Trafford and Chorlton, near Buile Hill (Salford), Kersal, Higher Broughton, Whalley Range, Broughton Park and Crumpsall !!!

These are basically inner Manchester's old middle class areas, and there are still a few old school 'posh' Mancunians living in them

Houses, not flats. Houses for anyone,

Theyve also built flats thats sort of look like houses. Which adds to the annoying traffic problems.

I'm a 36 year old (middle class?) person, and I'd happily live in West Park (Levenshulme), Victoria Park, Old Trafford and Chorlton, near Buile Hill (Salford), Kersal, Higher Broughton, Whalley Range, Broughton Park and Crumpsall !!!

These are basically inner Manchester's old middle class areas, and there are still a few old school 'posh' Mancunians living in them

Kersal?
That is one of the worst shit holes you can imagine. I used to live in a secure apartments there with 9 ft high perimeter fencing, cameras, keycard entry etc and they still got in!

As the thread-starter, perhaps now would be a good time to interject, add a little more of my reasoning and respond to some questions raised by contributors.

Of course you can accuse me of generalisation- there are always exceptions. Challenging my argument, several people have given examples of neighbourhoods where they or others they know are living happily. Not all the neighbourhoods mentioned fall within my '2/3 miles of the city centre' though. In my thread I did not say that middle-class/middle-aged people were entirely absent from inner-Manchester, only that these areas were not attractive to them. The key point is - assuming they can afford to live elsewhere, do they CHOOSE to live in Hulme/Whalley Range/Moss Side/Crumpsall?

For those who think me an abnoxious bigot, let me say that the sentiments of my thread are as much those of people I have lived and worked with as they are my own. I had a very middle-class upbringing in Bramhall - a 'des res' suburb 9 miles out from the centre. At age 20 I left, never to return. I have had 10 addresses in South Manchester since then - Rusholme, West Didsbury, West Point (Levenshulme), Heaton Mersey, Gatley, Rusholme (again!), and now Levenshulme again - but this time I live on the Gorton side of the A6, much rougher than West Point, it is primarily a working-class / ethnic neigbourhood with all the attendant problems. The few other middle-class neighbours live here mainly because they cannot afford to live elsewhere and now face the issue of 'where the hell is there a decent school for our kids?'. I choose to live here. I am a top rate tax payer, I could afford to move back to Bramhall or Altrincham if I so desired. I don't, I love being near the city but I am very much in a minority amongst my peers. I work for a large company, and of my management colleagues only one lives within 5 miles of the city centre (he's single and 30-something). Everyone else lives way out in the suburbs or Cheshire. This is typical - no-one wants to live and raise kids in inner Manchester. You can't ignore this - no city can ignore this - the movers and groovers are voting with their feet - they will cherry-pick the shopping and the culture of the CBD but they won't live there and so can't contribute to the community. That is in stark contrast to London and most of the EU cities we hold up as exemplars. In these cities the inner areas are the most desirable and expensive places to live, and they have long-standing stable communities of all generations and the facilities to support their lifestyle aspirations. It is good that people are once again living in central Manchester, but it is mono-cultural. I stand by what I said about the inner suburbs - not places of choice to the mainstream middle-class. Big Problem.

Roverman....

I understand exactly what you're saying.

For the past 100 years, the Manchester middle classes have lived as far away from the centre as possible. There's always been a move away from the centre of town, for the simple reason that Manchester developed as a purely industrial place. The bigger and smellier it got, the further people got away.........at least, those who could afford to. Until about 1960 with the mills belching out tons of acrid shit, it was a pretty fuckin disgusting place........

Don't under-estimate this!

To a certain extent, you still find the nice suburbs out of range of the chimneys, pollution and filth of that past industrialisation. Now that the industry's gone, the hope has been that the middle classes will return. They never lived in inner Manchester in the first place, but the expectation is that pretty soon, they will start to colonise it.

It's why you were brought up Bramhall, and why I was brought up in Stalybridge

We're only just now starting to see a reversal of that 100 year old trend. It's in its infancy; the middle classes have never really lived within 2 miles of the centre of town. They moved out to Whalley Range and Victoria Park as soon as they could 100 years ago, and then went further out to Bramhall and Brooklands, the wealthier they got.

That's just the history of British cities. Historically and traditionally, immigrants and the poor live close in to the centre, the rest of us get as far away as possible

This is going to change.

Jongeman,

Thanks for your empathy. You are of course right about the history to this problem. I too am certain that the middle-class have a changed perception of Manchester now that the industrial grime has gone, and that the urban-minded among them would seek to locate close to the city if it can provide for their needs. Poor quality education is a major deterrent, as is crime, litter, lack of suitable housing, gardens (or safe, pleasant public open space in lieu).

I see the problem only too well where I live in M19. Housing is reasonable if rather small, but there is so much shit everywhere and the district populated by too many people who either won't or can't look after the environment and be good neighbours. High schools are lamentable performers, mainly due to the social problems of their pupils in a culture where education is not highly valued. The middle-class here are a minority who confine themselves to network-socialising at home because there are few attractive public places (restaurants, bars, social / cultural interest groups) in which to congregate. This will be monumental to turn around. The price of housing in traditional middle-class areas is forcing more professionals to live in inner Manchester, but they are still insufficient in number to make a difference. A city without a fully engaged middle-class is a dead city. Time will tell whether Manchester can undo 150 years of being 'inside-out'. Like you, I hope it will.

I've lived in West Point (Levenshulme) for all 17 years of my life.
I can see what you mean about either side of the A6 being opposites.
People that hadn't been to my house before were pleasantly surprised to see that my street and area was infact quite nice...this was because they'd been told "there is no nice part of Levenshulme" after me telling them it was nice beforehand.
This is probably because people have come down Stockport Road and seen all the old terraced streets and presumed it was all like that.
There are pockets of "middle-classness" in most districts but not enough to give the whole area a nice feel about it.
For instance...coming down Rochdale Road in Blackley...around the Boggart Hole Clough area it seemed really leafy and suburban so i was pleasantly surprised...then 1/2 a mile down the road you hit Harpurhey...and it's just rank!
I just felt ironic...but yes i know it's just the way things have turned out though.
If only things were different in Harpurhey it would be an amazing area with Boggart Hole Clough right next to it.
Shame really...

Like that all over Manc though innit.

Gatley is attached to Benchill.
Chorltonville merges with the Merseybank Estate
Even leafy Wilmslow shares its postcode with a council estate

...sorry - I've never heard Levenshulme referred to as West Point before - can someone clear this up for me?

I was thinking the same thing Northy,ive lived in East Manchester all my life and ive never heard it called that

F*ck it - in keeping with this spirit, I'm going to rename Withington - North Point.

Roverman....you're right, it'll take a long time and a monumental shift to change 150 years of history. It's just the beginning though; the 20,000 odd city centre population are the first, and it remains to be seen whether the rest of the inner city gentrifies. I think eventually, it might.

Manchester's economy is in the process of becoming a service/knowledge based one, and this process will take decades. It should theoretically become a more middle class city (apologies for this, nobody really likes notions of a class system, but it does exist). I see the place becoming more and more like North London......more transient, more ethnic with predominantly good areas next door to poorer ones (West Hampstead next door to Kilburn, for example). It's already like this anyway.

It's saying something when a bloke like me (36 and very suburban) would consider moving one day to a new place in Beswick or Cheetham Hill. Now that is monumental.

Anybody my age should see that the real poverty that I saw as a teenager in Manchester, has largely disappeared.

The point about people in M19 not looking after the environment. I'm sorry to have to say this, but generally the British as a people don't really give a shit about their environment. You don't see mounds of swirling litter in European cities, and chucking shit on the ground here is the norm.

Anything else you say about class and the middle classes I find difficult to comment on, but I will. I live and work amongst 'working class' people, some of whom regularly like to point out that I'm different. Sometimes they're suspicious, and for example, I don't take broadsheet newspapers into work anymore, for fear of alienating myself further. I have my own thoughts on this, but they're not for here. Something to do with our low state education system appealing to the lowest common denominator, like much of our press and TV.

Hopefully I'm not going to start a war by saying stuff like that. It's just from my experience. :runaway:

....I'm afraid you're gonna have to dumb-down for the likes of us common folk, guvnor.....I'd tug me forelock if I 'ad one.... :bowtie:

Northbeach - 'West Point' is the unofficial name given to the western side of Levenshulme, incorporating the pleasant Rushford Park conservation area. The name is not widely known outside M19 - it is not shown on any map I've seen yet you will see it on estate agents brochures etc. I used it in my post to distinguish this area from the one I now live in - the Gorton side.


Jongeman - I would dearly love to see successful mixed class/ethnic neighbourhoods, it's the Utopian dream, but my own experience and that of friends and acquaintances is that people are happiest living amongst folk similar to themselves. That does not automatically apply to ethnicity and class, but like-mindedness and lifestyle is key. It's hard to be different. I left my suburban roots because I have always been drawn by the city and its energy, I disliked the anti-metropolitan mentality of many suburbanites. Now I find that I'm a middle-class professional in a neighbourhood with many losers. It's hard to be different!

Someone I once spoke to told me they lived in West Point, I thought they meant the office block on Chester Road!

Anyway this 'turn around' people are talking of, could this realistically happen without a substantial reconfiguring of our inner city housing stock? Ie. An injection of semi detached houses with gardens?

West Point is that area at the top end of Kingsway

I live a 5 minute drive from there. I've never heard of West Bank. You mean between the Birchfield roundabout and that wee car sales gaff by the railway bridge?

That's right spacepostman.
If you looked on an A-Z it'd mostly be the area inbetween the two railway lines and Albert Road named "Coston Park" which 'I' have never ever heard anyone refer to it as!
Well dgnr8...i never knew you lived so close...i might have seen you before...do you push empty shopping trolleys round West Point park?! Lol
Hope all your worries are cleared up now...Leve is still Leve!

Anyway this 'turn around' people are talking of, could this realistically happen without a substantial reconfiguring of our inner city housing stock? Ie. An injection of semi detached houses with gardens?

We're always being told that we no longer have room for semis with gardens, and that we're increasingly going to have to live like continental europeans, in apartments. I suppose there's a limit to how many people will accept this.

Funnily enough, I was also thinking of moving on to Bredbury, because I could just about afford a semi there, with carport (CRUCIAL) and a garden (also v important)...............!!

If I could afford a mock Tudor pile, with drawbridge and a moat, with 'gators in it, that'd be even better...lol