This area has an interesting feature, with a now lost church, and like very many areas in old cities some graves. Was last laid out as a park about 100 years ago. Personally I think that as a park it's just useless, and that is one thing that Liverpool city centre is really short of: nice public areas where you can sit and enjoy and sunshine.

Any ideas for how it could be redeveloped as a modern park? Because it's a big site, and on a slope, I was wondering if it would have a modern waterfall or some kind of water feature zig-zagging down it? I know there are some old statues there, but I don't like em, and think they could be safely reloacted up onto the plateau at Lime Street, or other equally important public areas of the city centre. (The Pier Head could probably take another statue or two).

I think a nice modern design, with quality stone but also retaining trees and making sure it's actually got a bit of greenery in it would be good. Certainly don't want a repeat of the Piccadilly Gardens Catastrophe that Manchester suffered when they modernised that parkland.

It's not pulling its weight as a public space at the moment, I definately think it needs to be re-thought. In particular, it needs to offer an obvious pedestian route over to the museum and library, at the moment (with exeption of the path by the St Georges Hall) its a barrier to pedestrian flows. It needs opening up, if its to feel safe, the semi-secluded seating areas are no good these days.

http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Leisure_and_culture/Parks_and_Environment/Parks_and_gardens/St_Johns_Gardens/index.asp

It seems to be quite well used on sunny days and so on. Having a cafe there of some sort would work, but I have no idea how you'd build that into it. It's only cut off because it's surrounded by Lime Street, the tunnel Roundabout and St. John's Lane, three roads we know are barriers to pedestrian traffic.

I don't think it is the park itself that is the problem.

The park is walled in and on the St John's Lane side, it's grade separated. I'm not how you could remedy this without extensive re-engineering which I can't see being a goer. EH would be appalled for a start, and I think I'd probably share their concern.

I've always thought that James Stirling's gallery in Stuttgart has some good ideas in it for the St Johns Gardens site. In particular, something for the far end of the site bounded by Haymarket (and Byrom St). A stucture on just that southerly part of the site of the sort built in Stuttgart would be fantastic. It would help resolve the gradient problems of the site, as above it the public space could - if desired - be raised to the height of the pathway around St Georges Hall. Or, if people are obsessed with retaining a slope, that could also work with a modern building at the base. It would need a quality anchor tenant - eg a big new national collection of art set up by a national collection, eg a British Museum in the North, or perhaps a Guggenheim, or a UK outpost for the Hermitage. I am sure a good gallery could be attracted to a world-beating site and opportunity like that, and it would complete that area. Currently all the sense of importance and place just dissipates with that hill and its overly-formal and completely out-moded park.

I really do think that site needs to be sorted out as a priority, it is the second-most important in Liverpool after the Pier Head (and since EH happily consented to the ruination of that as a public space with curvey recessed ampi-theatres around a canal that WON'T be able to accommodate tourist boats it seems, I don't see what possible credibility they would have).

The old statues could be plonked on the roof of the new gallery perhaps, in a new sculture garden.

If you click on the pics on this link, then imagine something like that (but more modern, this is now quite an old design) as you walk along Haymarket.

http://www.aidem-media.com/lava/gallery/museums/stirling/staatsg/

This link has nice pics too - one of them changes to show a perfect classical sculpture court if you click on it. I am not suggesting this gallery be replicated, but that it be used as inspiration to guide the redesign - if only to build a cafe and toilets in the redeveloped park. http://www.stgt.com/stuttgart/statgald.htm

Any ideas for how it could be redeveloped as a modern park? Because it's a big site, and on a slope, I was wondering if it would have a modern waterfall or some kind of water feature zig-zagging down it? I know there are some old statues there, but I don't like em, and think they could be safely reloacted up onto the plateau at Lime Street, or other equally important public areas of the city centre. (The Pier Head could probably take another statue or two).

I think a nice modern design, with quality stone but also retaining trees and making sure it's actually got a bit of greenery in it would be good. Certainly don't want a repeat of the Piccadilly Gardens Catastrophe that Manchester suffered when they modernised that parkland.

It's not pulling its weight as a public space at the moment, I definately think it needs to be re-thought. In particular, it needs to offer an obvious pedestian route over to the museum and library, at the moment (with exeption of the path by the St Georges Hall) its a barrier to pedestrian flows. It needs opening up, if its to feel safe, the semi-secluded seating areas are no good these days. ]

I agree that the city centre is short on "oasis of green," and these gardens could do with a revamp, but I would hate to see them modernized.
The layout and various statues and monuments do compliment St. Georges Hall , and it is fitting that the city has an area within the cultural quarter that honours those who contributed to the social changes that help to spread the name of Liverpool around the world.

As for major changes to the "footprint of the gardens" ,Gareth has made the point of grades in St. Johns Lane, but I would love to see the gardens "flow" across (swallow up) William Brown Street to provide a seamless link between St Georges, Museum,Library and the Walker. It is sacrilege that the street scape around this wonderful cluster of buildings is still marred by motor traffic.

If I recall the STRATEGIC REGENERATION FRAMEWORK PLAN published in July 2000 by Liverpool Vision did recognise the shortcomings in this area. It made several recomendations, which included redesign the gardens as an accessible public space, introduce commercial use of the Hall and Gardens and improve the public realm around the adjacent streets. With the big refurbishment of the Hall almost complete, attention may soon switch to action on the outside.

There were some plans at one time (Liverpool Vision ?) to take the wall out on the William Brown St end, get rid of the traffic there and make it so the gardens would be a continuation of a 'plaza' in front of the museum with a fountain etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling14.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling13.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling12.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/stirling11.jpg

Agreed Woody, no need for cars around there, although not a lot can be done now about buses coming out of the bus station I suppose.

Thanks for the pics, I like the design and the water features, IMO a bit to mod for St. Johns but would look good around the Mann Island area. The bus problem could be minimised if and when we get those trams sorted, and in the near future I would hope that many of our buses would be clean /green electric.

Personally I think that as a park it's just useless, and that is one thing that Liverpool city centre is really short of: "nice public areas where you can sit and enjoy and sunshine"

There are times when I think nobody can be bothered to respond to you, so as not to embarrass.

There are times when I think nobody can be bothered to respond to you, so as not to embarrass.

Don't worry your head about it Dave, I don't. :) Creative people will always meet opposition or indifference when they challenge accepted opinion. Since you know your history, you wil know I'm not being original in proposing some kind of structure there, it's just that my proposal retains and improves a good-sized public space there. If you don't like the idea of re-modelling that tired old public place, fine - I can respect your opinion. I feel no embarressment about having a radical idea for how to improve that space, and you should feel no embarressment in disagreeing. I know you like the old statues, and I'm not suggesting they be thrown away, but basically public parks are like private gardens - just as people don't have the same type of garden as their great great grandparents, nor should a city.

You know Dave, if we only posted when we felt guaranteed that we'd immediately find agreement from others, I'm not sure what the point would be. I'm happy doing my own thing in life, always have been, and sometimes people agree with you, sometimes they disagree, sometimes they ignore you. It doesn't matter really.

Used to go to St john gardens to sit down and eat my lunch a few years ago, allways seemed empty/quiet. Don't know what it's like now, but it does need something doing to it to improve useage, make it feel more welcoming. Events could be held there, situated at the St Georges hall end, large screen (temporary), beer garden, bit of a barbie/grill going, next world cup maybe. :)

This would advertise the area as a place to use, and ideal for upcoming 2008 events.

Used to go to St john gardens to sit down and eat my lunch a few years ago, allways seemed empty/quiet. Don't know what it's like now, but it does need something doing to it to improve useage, make it feel more welcoming. Events could be held there, situated at the St Georges hall end, large screen (temporary), beer garden, bit of a barbie/grill going, next world cup maybe. :)

This would advertise the area as a place to use, and ideal for upcoming 2008 events.

It has had various names over the years.

St Johns gardens is a strange place - it still retains it`s `Victorian air` - well planted and well seated and in it`s place.

Civic and with pride, high and low.

How dare we change it and should we change it - except to look `back` and compare?

The environs around St Georges need only very carefull amendment (if at all) when you consider the unigue grandour (but a few bars and resturants carefully blended with flower sellers and cheese stands and a Punch and Judy might not me so bad.....) but only if it makes people stay and imagine.

Although I do belive "St Georges Hall" did once have a `roof terrace` overlooking the gardens?

Such a big building - such a nice garden......in such a wonderful city!

Good to look at on the way to the `Market`........ "5lbs of Chicken legs please."

St Georges Hall (?) Britains (Liverpool`s) biggest `village hall.`

If you look at the layout of the park, there is still space where they could fit a new statue if they wanted ala Trafalger Sq.

Anyone have any ideas?

I think Bessy Braddock would be a good choice.

Maggie Simey.

Cilla Black. :)

Earlybird. :)

John Peel :cheers:

There was a proposal some years ago to remodel St Johns Gardens but the problem is that there are about 80,000 people buried there, dating from the days of St John's church.

As radical remodelling of the gardens would also mean loss of mature trees and of the Victorian statues and terracing, maybe all that is required is to improve its accessibity with some wider entrances and also use the area more to stage events connected to the Museum and Art Gallery.

There was a proposal some years ago to remodel St Johns Gardens but the problem is that there are about 80,000 people buried there, dating from the days of St John's church.

As radical remodelling of the gardens would also mean loss of mature trees and of the Victorian statues and terracing, maybe all that is required is to improve its accessibity with some wider entrances and also use the area more to stage events connected to the Museum and Art Gallery.

Martin,
before we move on, can you please critique on Liverpolitan's opening message in this thread? :)

Dave, I'd forgotten all about it, and now it's back in my brain.

Anyway, I have a new idea to take forward my gallery idea for the southerly part of that site. The gallery could be called the "Roman Abramovich Gallery", it could host a commerical outpost for the Hermitage (they have about fifty million tons of priceless art they can't even afford to store and need to get somewhere decent and where it can earn them some revenue through ticket sales). His wife could do the honours at the opening ceremony. What is £100m to him to build a fantastic art gallery? Nothing. His wife spends that on handbags in just one month, according to OK magazine. I think someone should write to him and ask him what he thinks. Has he ever been to Liverpool? Are Liverpool fans fawningly courteous about him? Could LFC deliberately throw a game against Chelsea as part of the deal to secure this investment?

Bill Gates spends his spare change on vaccines for blind kiddies and gizzmoes for his autistic mansion, which is great for Bill and blind kiddies and I'm not knocking it, but I think Roman might like to endow the European Capital of Culture 2008 with an important new gallery.

Dave, I'd forgotten all about it, and now it's back in my brain.

Anyway, I have a new idea to take forward my gallery idea for the southerly part of that site. The gallery could be called the "Roman Abramovich Gallery", it could host a commerical outpost for the Hermitage (they have about fifty million tons of priceless art they can't even afford to store and need to get somewhere decent and where it can earn them some revenue through ticket sales). His wife could do the honours at the opening ceremony. What is £100m to him to build a fantastic art gallery? Nothing. His wife spends that on handbags in just one month, according to OK magazine. I think someone should write to him and ask him what he thinks. Has he ever been to Liverpool? Are Liverpool fans fawningly courteous about him? Could LFC deliberately throw a game against Chelsea as part of the deal to secure this investment?

Bill Gates spends his spare change on vaccines for blind kiddies and gizzmoes for his autistic mansion, which is great for Bill and blind kiddies and I'm not knocking it, but I think Roman might like to endow the European Capital of Culture 2008 with an important new gallery.

"His wife"
LOL!

Do you read OK mag, Pol?

As a comedy writer, you're better than Miles Kington, Euan (Je suis une twatte) Ferguson (Christ, he's poor), that fat baldy nonce in The Times. That's not saying much though, although they're being paid for it.

I like that Marina Hyde (cool name). She's evil in a way I like (if only because she seems to hate the same things I do). Weird looking creature too. I like that as well.

Ok, I fancy her. Skinny evil birds with big noses I like. Takes all kinds I suppose.

Isn't there a joke about St John's gardens, about the statues coming to life and revenging themselves on pigeons - the punchline being "Hold him down while I shit on his head"?

Awayo, how do you post, only to scurry off offline within seconds?

I get quickly distracted - sign of a weak mind, isn't it?

Sorry Awayo, I was taking the piss out of myself. Irony doesn't translate on to message boards - well, not the way I write, anyway!

...and i was pissed, hence the bizarre nature of my post above. coming on this board always seems like a good idea when i've got back from the pub on a friday night. ah well.

Emma Peel (Diana Rigg) :)

John Peel :cheers:

Emma Peel (Diana Rigg) I meant! :runaway:

Here's an idea. Perhaps a park could be created (or this could be done in an expanded St Johns Garden) where statues of all the great people can be placed. All the great people who have visited, commented on, lived in, worked in, and come from Liverpool. Karl Jung, Herman Melville, Roscoe and Gladstone, Bill Shankly, John Peel, Harold Wilson, etc. Such an idea would not only pay a tribute to people with ideas and an interesting life, but also be a good attraction for tourists- it would be educational and show off Liverpool's past and associations.

Actually, come to think of, this is a brilliant idea. I would love to look round such a place. There could be plaques with each statue detailing the perons biography, quotes, achievements, etc.

Here's an idea. Perhaps a park could be created (or this could be done in an expanded St Johns Garden) where statues of all the great people can be placed. All the great people who have visited, commented on, lived in, worked in, and come from Liverpool. Karl Jung, Herman Melville, Roscoe and Gladstone, Bill Shankly, John Peel, Harold Wilson, etc. Such an idea would not only pay a tribute to people with ideas and an interesting life, but also be a good attraction for tourists- it would be educational and show off Liverpool's past and associations.

Actually, come to think of, this is a brilliant idea. I would love to look round such a place. There could be plaques with each statue detailing the perons biography, quotes, achievements, etc.

Blabber - sounds like you have an idea the National Museum of Liverpool Life could support.

:cheers:

..

..

Martin,
before we move on, can you please critique on Liverpolitan's opening message in this thread? :)

I thought it might be an idea if I had some idea what I was talking about before I did that, so here are some photos I took today. Not the best weather. Probably die from pneumonia and you'll be looking for someone new to do the development summary.

View from old Haymarket, traffic and barriers make the gardens difficult to get to.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/001.jpg

St John's Lane isn't much better due to the volume of traffic, though this might be better if and when we get the trams.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/002.jpg

I suppose this was once the main entrance but I suspect most people access the gardens nowadays from the two entrances either side of St Georges Hall.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/003.jpg

The centrepiece of the gardens, the huge South African war memorial:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/004.jpg

Minerva (or Britannia) on her pedestal:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/005.jpg

Quite a dramatic piece of work. This drummer boy is at the rear of the main group:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/006.jpg

The whole gardens are filled with memorial sculptures or these more recent plaques installed to commemorate a large variety of causes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/007.jpg

The greatest Victorian Scouser, William Ewart Gladstone:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/008.jpg

and William Rathbone:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/009.jpg

They all have a good view of the city centre:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/010.jpg

The entrance onto William Brown Street, opposite the Walker Art Gallery. A level access at this side and well used. Not sure if these walls originally belonged to St Johns Church:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/011.jpg

Even on a miserable rainy day like today, there were still a number of people using the gardens, and not just the path in front of St Georges hall.

The gardens are such a relic of the Victorian and Edwardian era that it would be very difficult to do major work there without destroying the integrity of the design. It would be like trying to modernise Stonehenge. I don't think a modern garden would be right in that location but it would be good to get more people using it. (Not overcrowding it as it is a fairly small and peaceful area).

I think that Liverpolitan is right in that the secluded seating area around the war memorial doesn't really work nowadays. Perhaps there is a case for building a small exhibition centre within that walled space, but a really sensitive design would be required to avoid detracting from the overall design.

Great pics Martin, thanks. For me, it's just a dreary waste of space. I'm not interested in those statues and while I want trees in the city centre, that kind of pompous city park is just not working. Just look at those absurd metal benches and the prissy planting, most peoples back gardens have a bit more pazzaz and style these days.

I perceive the gradient to be steeper than your photos show.....not sure why, but I do. Those statues could be relocated to add a bit of history to other parts of the city centre, especially those that are being extensively redeveloped.

Do you read OK mag, Pol?


I might do.

Great pics Martin, thanks. For me, it's just a dreary waste of space. I'm not interested in those statues and while I want trees in the city centre, that kind of pompous city park is just not working. Just look at those absurd metal benches and the prissy planting, most peoples back gardens have a bit more pazzaz and style these days.

I perceive the gradient to be steeper than your photos show.....not sure why, but I do. Those statues could be relocated to add a bit of history to other parts of the city centre, especially those that are being extensively dedeveloped.

Disagree Poly, refurb all the statues open up the perimeter to make it more pedestrian friendly and also open up the rear elevation of St Georges Hall ideal location for Restaurant / bar / tourist shop

Martin ,great set of photos, even on a wet day it looks ok. Could be better but I see no reason for mega changes.

I would expect that there would be some effort made prior to 2007/2008 to do a bit of a refurb on the gardens and surroundings - it can be a bit of a no mans land and a bar / resturant or tourism shop within the gardens area might protect it a little more as the scuptures etc do get mistreated.

I`m not against skate boarders etc or it being some sort of meeting area for all ages but unecessary damage is being done to a very prime area right in the heart of the `Cultural Quarter` and that is not good.

:bash:

Perhaps we could have a `Heritage Market and Stalls` from time to time.

Even some `up market kiosks`..... `You don`t have to be posh to be priveleged.`

:)

Sorry, batteries have gone in my mouse and I messed up the posting on this one. Its edited now with some commentary.

I agree with you Poli that we would not set out a garden like this nowadays but then we would not build buildings like St Georges Hall or the Picton Block either. By all means lets have a more modern garden but in a separate location. Maybe the new Chavasse Park will be the proper site for something like that, or somewhere else that doesn't have any gardens at the present time.

I thought it might be an idea if I had some idea what I was talking about before I did that, so here are some photos I took today. Not the best weather. Probably die from pneumonia and you'll be looking for someone new to do the development summary.

View from old Haymarket, traffic and barriers make the gardens difficult to get to.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/001.jpg

St John's Lane isn't much better due to the volume of traffic, though this might be better if and when we get the trams.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/002.jpg

I suppose this was once the main entrance but I suspect most people access the gardens nowadays from the two entrances either side of St Georges Hall.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/003.jpg

The centrepiece of the gardens, the huge South African war memorial:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/004.jpg

Minerva (or Britannia) on her pedestal:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/005.jpg

Quite a dramatic piece of work. This drummer boy is at the rear of the main group:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/006.jpg

The whole gardens are filled with memorial sculptures or these more recent plaques installed to commemorate a large variety of causes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/007.jpg

The greatest Victorian Scouser, William Ewart Gladstone:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/008.jpg

and William Rathbone:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/009.jpg

They all have a good view of the city centre:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/010.jpg

The entrance onto William Brown Street, opposite the Walker Art Gallery. A level access at this side and well used. Not sure if these walls originally belonged to St Johns Church:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/St%20Johns%20Gardens/011.jpg

Even on a miserable rainy day like today, there were still a number of people using the gardens, and not just the path in front of St Georges hall.

The gardens are such a relic of the Victorian and Edwardian era that it would be very difficult to do major work there without destroying the integrity of the design. It would be like trying to modernise Stonehenge. I don't think a modern garden would be right in that location but it would be good to get more people using it. (Not overcrowding it as it is a fairly small and peaceful area).

I think that Liverpolitan is right in that the secluded seating area around the war memorial doesn't really work nowadays. Perhaps there is a case for building a small exhibition centre within that walled space, but a really sensitive design would be required to avoid detracting from the overall design.

All, do you not think that rather than try to bring the gardens into the 21st century as a new garden it might be more charming to try to make it more Victorian / Edwardian with improved seating (not modern) and street lamps (gas effect) within the gardens and `hand carts` etc, look at Dr Duncans pub for example - use the history of the site to sell it more?

The `Conservation centre` Whitechapel does well to blend an old building with a new use - surely similar can be done with the rear of St Johns Gardens and St Georges Hall?

I know we don`t want a museum for a city centre - far from it but we should not overlook what is staring us in the face and for which many many other cities would give their eye teeth!

Converting the bogs opposite Dr Duncs into a pub/poncy wine bar would be a start. Maybe a spiral staircase inside could lead to a roof terrace, level with the gardens themselves. That'd get people over the other side of the street for things other than catching the train/mugging a granny and get a few more people in the park. :)

From the webbaviation website

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/liverpool/liv27.htm

One way to make better use would be to have a restaurant in the gardens. Same sort of idea they tried in Stanley Park using the palm house (great idea -wrong location)

Theres a 'similar' space in a park in downtown LA with a posh glass restaurant there - it draws people in during the day and evening. The Tavern on the Green in Central Park, New York is another one.

Is that the one in Ghostbusters, where Rick Moranis is hunted down by the big ugly devil-dog that looks like Sporty Spice? :?

One thing they might want to do is restore the old iron railings and gates that ran around the site. Done properly I'm sure it would cost a fortune, but that is how they were meant to be seen when built.

I thought it might be an idea if I had some idea what I was talking about before I did that, so here are some photos I took today. Not the best weather. Probably die from pneumonia and you'll be looking for someone new to do the development summary.

Thanks for the pics Martin :cheers:
A great place to appreciate Liverpool's past and also a green area to relax on a sunny day/lunch break.

Liverpol', I still have a little laugh to myself regarding your initial comments about renaming Chavasse Park. You thought Chavasse was some gung ho WW1 hero. Fucking hilarious :cheers:

I agree with Poli actually. It should be renamed Rambo Park after our favourite Vietnam War vet. don't know how many sick animals he treated there though. :)

Great set of pics Martin showing it just needs to be left as it is. :cheers:

Thanks for the pics Martin :cheers:
A great place to appreciate Liverpool's past and also a green area to relax on a sunny day/lunch break.

Liverpol', I still have a little laugh to myself regarding your initial comments about renaming Chavasse Park. You thought Chavasse was some gung ho WW1 hero. Fucking hilarious :cheers:

bored are we? I'm not playing that. I referred to an article about his life that was acutally several thousand words long, and seemed to know a bit more about him that you did. The only hilarious thing was your inability to read a straightforward post.

bored are we? I'm not playing that. I referred to an article about his life that was acutally several thousand words long, and seemed to know a bit more about him that you did. The only hilarious thing was your inability to read a straightforward post.

It was your initial posts regarding Chavasse that showed your ignorance. Me? I've known about Noel Godfrey Chavasse since my Dad gave me a signed copy of Ann Clayton's "Chavasse Double VC" book in December 1992.

Heres the Tavern on the Green in Central Park - would look great in St Johns .

http://69.0.173.64/tg1003/newsite/crystalroom.asp?headinfo=view&subhead=therooms

If anyone wants to fund me I will get my deep fat fryer out and put in a planning application. As long as its not a tall building I am sure it will sail through.

Heres the Tavern on the Green in Central Park - would look great in St Johns .

http://69.0.173.64/tg1003/newsite/crystalroom.asp?headinfo=view&subhead=therooms

If anyone wants to fund me I will get my deep fat fryer out and put in a planning application. As long as its not a tall building I am sure it will sail through.

Depends how tall your deep fat fryer is. Is it deep, very deep, extremely deep? :)

It was your initial posts regarding Chavasse that showed your ignorance.

Not at all, you just failed to read what I and others had posted and referenced, you assumed, mistakenly, you had a monopoly of knowledge about this man. I object to posh people getting more recognition in life than ordinary people for the simple reason that they are posh. You don't. It's boring to repeat that discussion.

Not at all, you just failed to read what I and others had posted and referenced, you assumed, mistakenly, you had a monopoly of knowledge about this man. I object to posh people getting more recognition in life than ordinary people for the simple reason that they are posh. You don't. It's boring to repeat that discussion.

I just thought your initial ingnorance of Chavasse was funny. It was an observation. Subject closed?

I just thought your initial ingnorance of Chavasse was funny. It was an observation. Subject closed?

You mis-read a post, got a silly idea in your head, and have gone about it for months. You re-opened the issue today. Do what you like, I'm not playing your silly game, just pointing out that you are entirely wrong about this. I initially referred to a quite long article about him when I first posted about him, and based my knowledge of him on that good source. You failed to recognise that, and having started off wrong on this, have continued along the wrong lines. Utter foolishness, in my opinion, but if it keeps you happy, that is your business.

You mis-read a post, got a silly idea in your head, and have gone about it for months. You re-opened the issue today. Do what you like, I'm not playing your silly game, just pointing out that you are entirely wrong about this. I initially referred to a quite long article about him when I first posted about him, and based my knowledge of him on that good source. You failed to recognise that, and having started off wrong on this, have continued along the wrong lines. Utter foolishness, in my opinion, but if it keeps you happy, that is your business.
FFS Pol. Get a grip and calm down. Let it go.

Give it up you two or I will be forced to invite Earlyturd into the conversation as a totally unbiased arbitrator!

St Johns gardens is an amazing place as it stands. Many a time I have eaten my sandwiches there and just day dreamed for a while. I think it is very pleasant and historical- one feels as though they are in a real city when in that park.

The idea to move the variuos statues to toher areas isn't a bad one. But on the other hand, the concentration of statues is an attraction unto itself.

Every time I have been to the park it has appeared to be popular.

Main Problems:

a) Access is abysmal. This is principally (IMO) because the inner 'motor way' strangles the whole area (including museums and St Georges.) If it were not for the horrible roads Lpool was covered in during the 1960s much of the city centre would be better integrated.

This should change though once the roads are remodelled in front of Lime St (-is that part pf te Big Dig?)

I like the perimeter wall- it is grand and expensive looking. But perhaps at the end furthest from St Georges it the boundary could be extended into that really wide road-side path. That way a more gentle slope could be used as the entrance providing better access to disabled people.

The saddest thing about these gardens is that they aren't bigger. It could be one of the finest city parks in Europe if it were several times larger.

b) As usual, there is a lack of business and enterprise taking place. Where is the cafe, restaurant and up-market bars in this area??? It is the ideal setting in which to establish an up-market retail/leisure experience. I suspect this is unlikely to happen until the council specifically request it, what with it being a very controlled WHS.

St Johns gardens is an amazing place as it stands. Many a time I have eaten my sandwiches there and just day dreamed for a while. I think it is very pleasant and historical- one feels as though they are in a real city when in that park.

The idea to move the variuos statues to toher areas isn't a bad one. But on the other hand, the concentration of statues is an attraction unto itself.

Every time I have been to the park it has appeared to be popular.

Main Problems:

a) Access is abysmal. This is principally (IMO) because the inner 'motor way' strangles the whole area (including museums and St Georges.) If it were not for the horrible roads Lpool was covered in during the 1960s much of the city centre would be better integrated.

This should change though once the roads are remodelled in front of Lime St (-is that part pf te Big Dig?)

I like the perimeter wall- it is grand and expensive looking. But perhaps at the end furthest from St Georges it the boundary could be extended into that really wide road-side path. That way a more gentle slope could be used as the entrance providing better access to disabled people.

The saddest thing about these gardens is that they aren't bigger. It could be one of the finest city parks in Europe if it were several times larger.

b) As usual, there is a lack of business and enterprise taking place. Where is the cafe, restaurant and up-market bars in this area??? It is the ideal setting in which to establish an up-market retail/leisure experience. I suspect this is unlikely to happen until the council specifically request it, what with it being a very controlled WHS.

Blabs,

St Johns Gardens, St Georges Hall and the `Cultural Quarter` ..... is what it stands for and why it`s included in WHS ...... Victorian wealth and povety neither is small quantity.

St Johns Gardens and the general area has already been sanitised over the years. (personally I would have kept the `Old Commutation row` with it`s little shops and pubs - but the clearing out of Islington blew out much of London Road etc.

Charles Dickens gave many of his readings in "St Georges Hall" and also stayed in the previous `Adelphi` - his favourite hotel in all of the world.

Given that it`s unlikely that we intend to build a `tower` in St Johns Gardens :) it`s going to behold the city to explain the `Victorian` era as Liverpool will increasingly become the `City of the age` by volume and impact.

It doesn`t have to be an open air theme park - but it could do much worse especially as we already have the largest museums and art galleries out side of London within yards and theaters.

Essentially I see the area as our `Trafalgar Square` - if you condensed London you wouldn`t come far short of Liverpool!

It`s been considered before ..... Queen Square (modern) meets `Gardens` meets `Museums`..... that would make quite some play ground.

If not at least try to improve the `tarmac` between the two St Johns Gardens gates - `St Johns Lane` to `William Brown Street` rather 60`s nasty.

Essentially I see the area as our `Trafalgar Square` - if you condensed London you wouldn`t come far short of Liverpool!

Precisely, and that is all my proposals really involve - making it a more fitting grand public place in this most important part of our city centre. It isn't currently anything like Trafalgar Square, and is a cluttered old municipal garden rather than a grand public place. The improvements made to Trafalgar Square have made a phenomenal difference to that place.

Precisely, and that is all my proposals really involve - making it a more fitting grand public place in this most important part of our city centre. It isn't currently anything like Trafalgar Square, and is a cluttered old municipal garden rather than a grand public place. The improvements made to Trafalgar Square have made a phenomenal difference to that place.

I like the "Trafalger Square" scenario, but I would locate it at the top of William Brown St centred on the Duke of Wellington column.
I would love to see this area become traffic free, thus creating a large public Sq that would run from the Walker to the front of St Georges Hall. St Johns Gardens could also span William Brown St and be joined to the new Wellington Square.

It`s been considered before ..... Queen Square (modern) meets `Gardens` meets `Museums`..... that would make quite some play ground.

If not at least try to improve the `tarmac` between the two St Johns Gardens gates - `St Johns Lane` to `William Brown Street` rather 60`s nasty.


Ironically the tarmac was only relaid a few years ago. Certainly an opportunity was missed to do something better at that time.
Very cheap n nasty imo.

Ironically the tarmac was only relaid a few years ago. Certainly an opportunity was missed to do something better at that time.
Very cheap n nasty imo.

PJ. It may be no bad thing if Liverpool tried to emulate Birmingham and create a `Grand Water Feature` within St Johns Gardens (Why am I thinking "Doodar and Gromit" a "Grand Day Out?")

ie, a few fountains at the back of St Georges Hall could cascade down via a few bridges to the bottom of the gardens into a pool near the tunnel end of the gardens.

Various `Drinking fountain masks` etc could fall from either side of the garden walls into St Johns Lane and William Brown Street - designed to a similar degree to Steebles Foutain.

That could be our 800th birthday present to ourselves by pubilic subscription?

http://www.urban75.org/photos/birmingham/brum35.html
Victoria Square fountains

The fountains are some of the biggest in Europe and create a flow of around 3,000 gallons of water per minute.

http://www.urban75.org/photos/birmingham/brum36.html

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

If nothing else this thread proves people have plenty of imagination.

Personally though I think leave well enough alone though, save for maybe another statue and restoring the old gates.

The fountain proposed for Central Village already sounds like the water feature to end all water features. So we may see something similar eventually.

Personally though I think leave well enough alone though, save for maybe another statue and restoring the old gates.


PJ, what do you think of this? I saw it close up and properly for the first time today, on a flying visit, and I "simply cannot believe it".....Honestly, it is beyond an outrage, imo. An absolute fucking disgrace.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/07fd680b.jpg

Liverpolitan...

Must admit, it doesn't bother or offend me. I like it because it is modern and an indicator that the Museum is new and modern on the inside, to attract people. The carpark infront and overcast skies are more offensive. :)

Juxtapol, agree with you about the cars.

My skills as a photographer were not up to it, but the area around letters MUSEUM are sort of dusted in a purpley-sparkley tinselly effect, you know the kind of thing 10 year old girls like their pencil cases from paperchase coated in? I don't think my coffee on the train was spiked with hallucinagenics, my meetings in town would have been more fun if that had been the case, and I swear that there is a decidely nasty "hey kids this MUSEUM is cool" sort of treatment. It's subliminal, to attract children in. But it really annoyed me. Examine them close-up, you will see it. This is one of the finest groups of neo-classical buildings in this country, and those signs mock them. Did EH approve them?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/PA140007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/qwerty1234520012000/PA140004.jpg

Hey poli,

Your hated signs appear to have attracted a be-hudded scal into the museum so they're obviously having some effect.

I'm with Juxta, the signs suggest there are new, sparkly things to see on the inside- and the neo classical gems are still just that inspite of the signage.

Hey poli,

Your hated signs appear to have attracted a be-hudded scal into the museum so they're obviously having some effect.

I'm with Juxta, the signs suggest there are new, sparkly things to see on the outside- and the neo classical gems are still just that inspite of the signage.

hi blabbers - probably not a real scally, most kids seem to dress like that now, even whatisname, that kid from Preston.

But I find it hard to reconcile your comments on these abhorrant signs wtih your general protectiveness towards that dismal Edwardian walled municipal garden.....I had a good look round the whole site today and more than ever I think it's a total waste and needs to be dug up and started again.

One of the problems with the garden is the feeling of clutter. It seems that there are too many grand statues for such a small place. Nontheless, I like it on the whole. It's a nice place to eat one's sarnies.

I'd like to see it expanded. Liverpool lacks central park areas. Chavasse should improve this an awful lot, but St John's offers a more classical city park feel. I still think that the bottom end of the site should be extended. Perhaps the slope of the park could be turned into large steps (platforms) with a sloped path allowing access for wheel chairs, prams, etc.

The main problem I think is the size- what can be done when

a) it contains so much historic matter, including numerous graves, statues and memorials

and b) All of this stuff is crammed into a tiny area that can only be expanded at the expense of the road system (-otherwise St Georges hall could be demolished.)

Having said all of that, a water feature would be nice. Perhaps a traditional fountain.

and those signs mock them. Did EH approve them?



They're probably a flash in the pan and will be gone in ten years. Well....we can but live in hope.

Found this photo of St Johns before all the trees were planted in the 1950s- It also looks like some of the walls were a bit lower .

Is it just me or does this look a lot more clean and inviting than the current layout . Maybe we should just cut all the trees down and lower the surrounding walls?

http://www.20thcenturyimages.co.uk/trolleyed/3/18/161/index.htm

I would love to see the art deco 'pylon' and architecture restored to the tunnel entrance. Some of the best art deco architecture in the UK imho.

I would love to see the art deco 'pylon' and architecture restored to the tunnel entrance. Some of the best art deco architecture in the UK imho.

LA,

I read last year that the `Art Deco Pylon` had been found on the Wirral (in some ones back garden(???)) and that there was some possability of it being reposioned near to the tunnel entrance / exit.

It`s a pity the original booths were also removed - they`d make nice little `kiosks` (?) in the area from which to sell the `Echo` :)

The ventitaltion tower Mann Island behind the POL building has some excellent detail including art deco `Liverbirds` etc.
http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConGallery.89
See bottom right hand picture in link.
(Photograph of the Queensway Mersey Tunnel Ventilation Tower, taken from street level. It was opened in 1934, but largely re-built in 1951-2 by Herbert J Rowse after severe bomb damage during the war.)

Lifelong Liverpool photographer `E. Chambré Hardman` took some of the most atmosheric photographs of the mueseums and gardens and tunnels etc.

Well worth taking a look at this link:
http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConGallery.88

and

http://www.oldprints.co.uk/prints/lancs/92416.htm

Plus,

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-59rodneystreet/

:) :cheers:

Thanks for the links Pietari . I must visit 59 Rodney St when I get to visit home next year.

The art deco on the ventilation shaft at Georges Dock is amazing - its very understated but well worth a look. The work on the tunnel entrance is recognized internationally as some of the best UK art deco so to bring some of the original stuff back would be great. I think the musuem has one of the tunnel booths tucked away.

If they cant restore the pylon near the tunnel I will buy it myself have it shipped and put it in my garden here in CA (next to the Sailors Home gates :))

These historical pieces surely should be part of the new Musuem of Liverpool.

Found this photo of St Johns before all the trees were planted in the 1950s- It also looks like some of the walls were a bit lower .

Is it just me or does this look a lot more clean and inviting than the current layout . Maybe we should just cut all the trees down and lower the surrounding walls?

http://www.20thcenturyimages.co.uk/trolleyed/3/18/161/index.htm

I would love to see the art deco 'pylon' and architecture restored to the tunnel entrance. Some of the best art deco architecture in the UK imho.

I think you've got a point there. Perhaps the gardens would look better without tall trees as they were originally laid out as a formal garden and, also, there are some fine views of the city from there.

I always love the view from the Museum steps, as shown in the Chambre Hardman photo, especially at dusk when you have the lights of Victoria Street and Whitechapel and the towers of the Liver Buildings and Municipal Buildings.

The Art Deco pylon at the Mersey Tunnel entrance ended up, along with the tunnel booths, in a disused quarry in Everton. I saw a planning application a few months ago to build a new lighting feature at the tunnel entrance, so perhaps they are going to reinstate it, hopefully in time for CoC, or at least the tunnel's 75th. birthday in 2009.

Take a look at these pictures of St Johns Gardens from various periods.

http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?search_word=st+johns++gardens&change=SearchResults

Seems like the trees were introduced sometime after the 50s but it seems to reinforce my personal view that if you returned the gardens to their original design (sans trees) it would be a much better place and maybe doesnt need a radical redesign.

Technically it does look better without the trees.

But where would the birdies sit?

Also there would be no where for the fairy lights .....

Doh, why does life have to have so many indescions.

:sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

Technically it does look better without the trees.
But have you considered the possible landslides into the Mersey Tunnel should there be a downpour. Keep the Trees! :)

Here are some pics of Sheffield's Peace Gardens that I took today. It's a new area and there are developments taking place all around it. An excellent wintergarden opened nearby recently (-Liverpool should definitely get one.)

These gardens I think show the extent to which St Johns looks a bit tired. The Peace Gardens are very modern and fresh, but equally are traditional looking and respect the surroundings. The fountain in my opinion is pretty classy- perhaps a similar idea could work for St Johns?

Most of all, these gardens really work- especially in the sunny months.

Just in case anybody is feeling a bit hard done by- I have included a picture of Sheffield's (listed!) Park Hill flats :)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/rob*******1/DSCF1095.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/rob*******1/DSCF1096.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/rob*******1/DSCF1093.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/rob*******1/DSCF1094.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/rob*******1/DSCF1099.jpg

Blabbs, very nice photos of the Peace Garden and I love the water features. St Johns does look a little tired, but I would enhance its Victorian look ,not modernise it. A fountain would look good, but it is a park of statues and memorials to the great and the good of this city and it is these together with the pathways that need attention.

Excellent photos blabbern, they also illuminate those water features at night, they look lovely. It's a nice example of how a tired old public space can be modernised without looking stupid.

Cheers guys. The use of expensive tiles in the water features has worked really well IMO.

Maybe in St Johns they could add a fountain and use similar high curbs around the grass (-and re-turf) and perhaps use some smart paving flags.

By the looks of my piccies you might get the impression Sheffield is a beautiful city- actually this area is its best bit. Apparently 50% of the flats at Park Hill are being sold privately- and Urban Splash is being commissioned to turn the place around. I should imagine they will have their work cut out on this one.

I think I'm correct is saying that those flats are the ones that were shown as being severly damaged by the blast wave from the asteroid that destroyed Earth in ITV's The Last Train - recently repeated on the Sci-Fi Channel. No exaggeration but there isn't a lot of difference between the simulated destruction and the above photo. I agree, Urban Splash, great track record, but I don't envy them here.

I do really like the water features and landscaping though in their town centre though. There's a similar smaller fountain that comes up out of the ground in Lord Street, Southport, but it seems to work extremely well on a larger scale, as seen above. It's better not to play follow-the-leader and come up with your own ideas, but a good idea is a good idea. Nice one Sheffield.