1 Opposite BWP
2 Yorkshire Chemicals Site
3 Corner of New York St and Regent St next to the inner ring road flyover
4 Kirkstall Road
5 Sheepscar

BTW this was the DLA losing entry for Criterion Place. I think the proposal was developed to a fairly advanced stage, so they might be looking for a suitable site.

http://www.dla-architecture.co.uk/projects_criterionplace.htm

In terms of the next proposal, I would imagine it to come in an area that has little activity to date. I would see Kirkstall Road as a potential site as something big will surely go on the Yorkshire Chemical or the Dairy site. I would also see Park Lane/Burley Road as a next site.

In terms of the next proposal, I would imagine it to come in an area that has little activity to date. I would see Kirkstall Road as a potential site as something big will surely go on the Yorkshire Chemical or the Dairy site. I would also see Park Lane/Burley Road as a next site.

This will add impetus to what you say about the opportunities for Kirkstall Road:

End of an era as First Bus plans £8m depot
By Peter Lazenby

First Bus is planning to build an £8m depot in south Leeds. The new depot will mean closure of the firm's depot in Kirkstall Road, which has been in service since the early 1900s and was one of the city's tram sheds. If planning permission is granted, the new depot will be located on a site at Atkinson Street off Accommodation Road in Hunslet and will cater for 250 buses – 100 more than the Kirkstall depot can handle – and will allow the company to expand its operations in Leeds.

Closure of the Kirkstall Road depot also clears the way for potential regeneration of a large part of the Kirkstall Road industrial corridor. The site of the neighbouring Yorkshire Chemicals factory is also to be cleared. The Hunslet site which First Bus hopes to use for its new depot covers six acres and the project will involve the conversion of an existing building of 77,000 sq ft and creation of 15,000 sq ft of new office space to accommodate the firm's regional head office. The project is awaiting planning permission. An application was made to Leeds City Council in July.

First's managing director in Leeds, Steve Graham, said: "Kirkstall Road is the former central works and tram depot dating from the early 1900s. There are still tram lines down here. "The new depot is an exciting project. We have been looking for a site for a new depot both to facilitate expansion of our services as we have an increasing number of customers at present and are currently log-jammed, and to produce state of the art repair facilities. It gives us room to introduce additional vehicles into our fleet."

If the scheme gets planning permission from councillors, the new depot is expected to be completed by early 2007. A decision is expected from Leeds City Council by late November.

[QUOTE=magicrealist] Where will the next tall proposal be?[QUOTE]

Why can't the women be asking us these questions :) :) :runaway:

My preference would be for the Hindle Valves site across from BWP, what an entrance to the city that would be!

Can't see a tall going up on Kirkstall Road, it's too far out of the city centre and hence the land prices are cheaper, I think mid rise will be the order of the day along there.

My preference would be for the Hindle Valves site across from BWP, what an entrance to the city that would be!

Can't see a tall going up on Kirkstall Road, it's too far out of the city centre and hence the land prices are cheaper, I think mid rise will be the order of the day along there.


My thoughts exactly! also what about the yorkshire chemical site next to the brewery?

Somewhere around the Yorkshire Post building maybe, or Sheepscar I think. There are some other sites I could imagine having some tall buildings too, particularly along the inner ring road corridor.

My preference would be for the Hindle Valves site across from BWP, what an entrance to the city that would be!

Can't see a tall going up on Kirkstall Road, it's too far out of the city centre and hence the land prices are cheaper, I think mid rise will be the order of the day along there.


Just watch this western side of the City Centre. I recken with the river/canal next to Kirkstall Road and so near to the core of the city, this will be the next big thing for tall developments. Mayfair will be the start, then Citygate, then the huge site of Yorkshie Chemicals/Metro bus depot.

10 years ago, who would have thought south of the river where BWP is, would become a part of Leeds City Centre.

Just watch this western side of the City Centre. I recken with the river/canal next to Kirkstall Road and so near to the core of the city, this will be the next big thing for tall developments. Mayfair will be the start, then Citygate, then the huge site of Yorkshie Chemicals/Metro bus depot.

10 years ago, who would have thought south of the river where BWP is, would become a part of Leeds City Centre.

Cmon guys lets be realistic. Without wishing to piss on anyones bonfire how many 30 storey plus developments can Leeds sustain? Look at Frankfurt, a major financial capital (far more so than Leeds) and renown as a centre for highrise development, if all the proposed developments went ahead Leeds would be matching Frankfurt for skyscrapers, it aint going to happen.

Given that, I'd much rather that key sites such as Hindle Valves, etc got developed than shitey out of town areas like the bottom of Kirkstall Road. We need to get the core city centre sorted out before thinking about the outer lying area.

With the proper infrastructure and management in Leeds, or any major British city, I don't see why it couldn't match Fraknfurt. Both Leeds and Birmingham have slightly larger city populations than Frankfurt (which has something like 650,000). I'm not trying t osay it will be like this, but I'm just saying that it is likely the high rise boom in Leeds will continue for a while, spreading out of the known city centre, which has stayed similar for years.

there's a big difference between leeds' high rises and frankfurts, leeds are residential, frankfurts are office.

Can Leeds realistically sustain either?
How much empty office space is there in Leeds? x million sqft?

I suspect the closest city in the UK (ecomony and population wise) is London, none off our provincial cities get close.

It is the heart of the 'euro-land' economy, being home to the European Bank, housing many multinational companies.

600k people may pay their taxes to the Frankfurt city council - but I would imagine there are a few million in the area around Frankfurt that is equivilent to the area that the city of Leeds covers. Anyway, German local government is nothing like ours, the equivelent of the Leeds City council would more likely be the lande government, which no doubt covers several million people, as the Greater London Assembly does.

Leeds is a great city that is doing fantastically well, but lets not get ahead off ourselves here and start making ludicrous comparisons.

Using the simple - 'how many people pay the local council tax' rule, Brum could equally be compared to Manhattan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan ) there is a 50% difference in population, similar to the difference between Frnakfurt and Brum.

I think Leeds can easily sustain the demand. Alot of the problem is the locations, rather than the demand or development itself. I bet Whitehall Quays will be almost fully sold out by the time the riverside area has fully developed.

Whitehall Quays? which building is that specifically?

Basically the apartment buildings along Whitehall Quays- theres 2 at the moment.

Whitehall Quay (nearest the station) is all sold.
Are there still unsold flats in Whitehall Waterfront?

yo stig you must be thinkin of some other city there is no way near 1million sq ft of empty office space do you have any idea what so ever about leeds or was it just a stupid comment????????????? LOL LOL dude.

why would any company be still wanting to build office accomadation in leeds if there is a 1 million sq ft spare, wellington place for example is going to contain roughly 1,5million sq ft of office accomadation and this is been developed by hermes a small company that has little or no idea how and where to invest money in office construction. what do you think. this is just one of a series of planned and U/C office developments in leeds mate.

JUST THINK BEFORE YOU GIVE SILLY OPINIONS ABOUT A SUBJECT YOU HAVE LITTLE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MATE!!!!!!!!!!!! :bash: :bash: :bash:

yo stig you must be thinkin of some other city there is no way near 1million sq ft of empty office space do you have any idea what so ever about leeds or was it just a stupid comment????????????? LOL LOL dude.

why would any company be still wanting to build office accomadation in leeds if there is a 1 million sq ft spare, wellington place for example is going to contain roughly 1,5million sq ft of office accomadation and this is been developed by hermes a small company that has little or no idea how and where to invest money in office construction. what do you think. this is just one of a series of planned and U/C office developments in leeds mate.

JUST THINK BEFORE YOU GIVE SILLY OPINIONS ABOUT A SUBJECT YOU HAVE LITTLE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MATE!!!!!!!!!!!! :bash: :bash: :bash:

well excuse me The King, for making an observation.

Yes I was exagerating when I said million, but just look around the city. Have you seen all the boards up?

Wellington Street, King Street, Park Place, The Headrow; All around the 'business district' are empty offices.

That's not including the stuff on the periforary of the city centre or all that is planned in the proposed new build schemes.
The only way new schemes are being agreed is by mixing the uses.

Clarence Dock is an example, the original plans there were for a large amount of office space, this has been reduced (La Salle, 1 block from 3).

The point was, can Leeds sustain the amount that is being built when so much stands empty already.

Where is all the business going to come from?

I hear all sorts being banded about about Leeds being Europe's fastest growing city in commercial terms. UK's #1 for this and that....

Where's the proof?

wellionton place hermes and st james security are developing million + pure office scheme, added to this the two developments on quarry hill again majority office development. the offices boards of which you speak are all old buildings or small amounts of a much larger schemes that have had the rest of the building let. these few buildings are little or nothing add up the avaliable grade A office space with the prefered 20000sq ft office plates, this is the reason why these little bits of office space are still to let dude.

leeds been the fastest growing in europe not to sure about that but the evidence of leeds growing fast is open your eyes and look little or no goverment funding like tyne side or manc, and still 20+ crains in the skyline not bad of our own back mate even with out gov funding for supertram ect......... put that in ya pipe and smoke it!!!!!!

yo stig you must be thinkin of some other city there is no way near 1million sq ft of empty office space do you have any idea what so ever about leeds or was it just a stupid comment????????????? LOL LOL dude.

why would any company be still wanting to build office accomadation in leeds if there is a 1 million sq ft spare, wellington place for example is going to contain roughly 1,5million sq ft of office accomadation and this is been developed by hermes a small company that has little or no idea how and where to invest money in office construction. what do you think. this is just one of a series of planned and U/C office developments in leeds mate.

JUST THINK BEFORE YOU GIVE SILLY OPINIONS ABOUT A SUBJECT YOU HAVE LITTLE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MATE!!!!!!!!!!!! :bash: :bash: :bash:

No offence mate, but it seems you don't have much of an idea about Hermes either. They are looking for a joint partner for Wellington Place because despite their size, a £200m property investment is a lot to swallow for any firm on its own. Its called spreading risk. £54bn of funds under management is NOT INSIGNIFICANT (note use of capital letters to emphasis the point old bean)!

Hermes is a fund manager independent of any broader financial services group. We invest funds on behalf of around 200 clients including pension funds, insurance companies, government entities and financial institutions, as well as charities and endowments. However, Hermes’ largest client is the BT Pension Scheme (BTPS) who, as owner of Hermes, gives its investment management perspective a unique insight and close alignment to the needs of other long-term investors and especially pension funds.

Hermes, with over 20 years experience of managing money for its initial sponsors, British Telecom and the Post Office, was created in 1995, when it became wholly owned by the BT Pension Scheme.

Created in 1983
Owner: BT Pension Scheme (BTPS)
Total Clients: over 200
Funds under management:
Approximately £54bn*
Headcount: 297

The Hermes Property Asset Management offers property investment through segregated and pooled vehicles. We operate an integrated portfolio management and research-based approach to segregated property investment. This is based upon a philosophy of targeting, for acquisition, high quality properties which are well located and highly competitive in their local marketplaces.

Hermes operates across all the primary markets of retail, office and the industrial sectors. The investment process combines the use of top down portfolio and bottom up property asset models, to develop specific investment strategies for clients to maximise their returns.

The Hermes Property Unit Trust enables clients to participate mutually in a professionally managed vehicle investing in real property, benefiting from a diversified portfolio, without prejudicing their tax-exempt status and the burden of management.

Hermes Commercial
The property investment sector has produced some very credible returns in recent years and has outperformed virtually all other asset classes over 10 years. However, it is clear we are now approaching a new stage in the cycle, with uncertainty as to the future economic outlook and an expectation of lower total returns as rents come under pressure and investment demand becomes more diverse.

As part of our brief we seek to offer our Clients the best returns available across a large, professionally managed commercial property portfolio. In house we have specialist managers in investment, portfolio management, leasing and development who, pooled together, have produced above average performance across our funds.

We recognise the changing business environment where our customers require flexibility in modern, well-specified accommodation. We therefore seek to invest in offices, business parks and industrial estates that meet these requirements. As part of our asset improvement process, we also develop suitable opportunities such as Wellington Place, Leeds where we are currently seeking planning consent for 2.4m sq ft of mixed-use development.

Hermes' clients also invest in indirect property opportunities. These are primarily UK Limited Partnerships, joint ventures and corporate entities. Our success in securing the remaining 50% of MEPC is the latest in a series of initiatives designed to gain exposure to specialist property vehicles.

Drove past WhitehallWaterfront today. 540,000 sqft available.
Thats more than 1/2 my million figure.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it yourself!
Or take a chill pill.

...............As part of our asset improvement process, we also develop suitable opportunities such as Wellington Place, Leeds where we are currently seeking planning consent for 2.4m sq ft of mixed-use development...........

Really? I had no idea this was going to be such a large development. Jimbo, do you know what the timescales are?

Drove past WhitehallWaterfront today. 540,000 sqft available.
Thats more than 1/2 my million figure.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it yourself!
Or take a chill pill.


Stig, a quiet word.........

that 540,000sqft refers to plans for new buildings, not already built and empty!

Oh ok.
Still all that put together, (available in the next how long?) is a shedload of commercial space.
Is it going to get filled with new business or will it simply be migratory, leaving more of the older/smaller office space available that we have already.

I'm going to shut up now seeing as we're hopelessly off topic.

I think it will be pretty much new businesses, coming from outside the city. It has been shown that outside businesses are interested in central Leeds by Eversheds moving into BWP.

i told you so dude mabee i need to take a chill pill as you so rightly say, it just pisses me off when people make comments on things they obiously have no idea about, no company would be planning, 2.4 million sqft next to the affore mentioned 1/2 million sqft next door if there was no market in leeds for this and if leeds had already 1millionsqft empty office space.that is the point i was making dude.

and jimbo managing 54bn pounds and this is a not a large company, and the point i was making ws a company like this would not be putting a £200million development in a city like leeds if there was no market for it. what do you think mate?????

and jimbo managing 54bn pounds and this is a not a large company, and the point i was making ws a company like this would not be putting a £200million development in a city like leeds if there was no market for it. what do you think mate?????

are you saying it is a large company or not? Without some semblance of grammar I really don't have a clue what you are saying half the time. Yes it is a big development, yes Hermes are a huge fund manager, yes Leeds has a market for this, but only over a long period of time - if the entire scheme was built by 2007 half of it would stay empty for ages until the natural take up, well, took it up. I think the scheme is actually closer to £500m in value.

Have a look at the website - has already been posted here, but gives a great overview of what is planned.

Wellington Place (http://wellingtonplace.co.uk/www/wellington_introduction.asp)

...developed by hermes a small company that has little or no idea how and where to invest money in office construction....

I was referring to this statement, however if you meant it in a sarcastic manner, then if would obviously mean the opposite - but to be frank I'm not sure I understand most of what you write. I don't think several FTSE index companies would invest billions of their pension holders capital if these chaps didn't have a clue about investment.

Either way, yes, I get your point, of course there is supply and demand in Leeds. What Stig was saying is it realistic for all the proposed developments to actually get built. We won't know till its actually built or not, but an informed guess based on council stats for the past 5 years or so suggest total take up of around 150,000sq ft per annum, i.e., the equivalent of one new Wellington Place Building 2 per year.

The boards advertising the space are basically touting for businesses to come and rent space in the schemes, but the majority of developers are cautious about the markets and will pretty much only build with a pre-let (i.e., Town Centre Securities on Whitehall Road for Cobbetts and Russel Mellon Caps and St James Securities who waited till Eversheds signed before commencing BWP). Speculative development is few and far between but Simons Estates CityWalk / Lateral development is a prime example. Also it seems McLease and Rushe are building City Square House speculatively, however we are not party to most of the behind the scenes information, so pre lets may have been agreed, but not yet announced. Perhaps my argument is void, because Crosby are spec building La Salle's office element at Clarence Dock and Shepherd are doing the same at CityPoint.

That was fun. Might get a post on topic next time folks......

Really? I had no idea this was going to be such a large development. Jimbo, do you know what the timescales are?

I only remember this from a couple of years back when the development was first announced (as Leeds' Brindley Place) and they said it was due for completion around 2015. This was in 2003 - so guess they were looking at a 12 year build programme, but have no idea what the timescales are now. If they manage to fully let No.2 Wellington Place they may start on more than one further office element. No.3 was due to start and the sheds backing on to the river have been recently demolished but I think they may have only been started enabling works and sewerage.

well anyway - back on topic. Several potential sites for taller towers in my view

1) Old Leeds Met car park site behind the Merrion Centre / Tower North site - would be on similar elevation to Plaza and hence has distinct height advantage over anything built down by the river
2) Hindle Works site - next to BWP would be good - but potential crowding effect could be intense. Still hlding out hopes that Asda skidaddle and sell that land on to mixed use developers to join up the south side of the Aire
3) Behind the Travelodge and TGI Fridays.

To be frank I'd be happy with no more announcement for a couple of years as long as what is already proposed is all actually built. Criterion and Venture/West Point would be jewels in the crown.

well anyway - back on topic. Several potential sites for taller towers in my view

1) Old Leeds Met car park site behind the Merrion Centre / Tower North site - would be on similar elevation to Plaza and hence has distinct height advantage over anything built down by the river
2) Hindle Works site - next to BWP would be good - but potential crowding effect could be intense. Still hlding out hopes that Asda skidaddle and sell that land on to mixed use developers to join up the south side of the Aire
3) Behind the Travelodge and TGI Fridays.

To be frank I'd be happy with no more announcement for a couple of years as long as what is already proposed is all actually built. Criterion and Venture/West Point would be jewels in the crown.

1) has been marketed in the last few weeks, jointly by LMU and the City Council

2) was the subject of a mixed-use planning application some years ago but I'm hazy about the detail. I reckon they could overcome the crowding effect by positioning the tall building at the east end of the site, ie furthest way from BWP.

3) was marketed for development years ago but the only fruits of that proposal were the hotel and casino next door. It occurs to me, though, that you have the potential for an enormous riverside development there, when you include the Yorkshire Chemicals, Arla Foods, and First Bus sites, all in a row along Kirkstall Road.

Either way, yes, I get your point, of course there is supply and demand in Leeds. What Stig was saying is it realistic for all the proposed developments to actually get built. We won't know till its actually built or not, but an informed guess based on council stats for the past 5 years or so suggest total take up of around 150,000sq ft per annum, i.e., the equivalent of one new Wellington Place Building 2 per year.

I think you're a little pessimistic in your guesswork about office take up. According to King Sturge's figures, quoted in the 2005 Leeds Economy Handbook, annual take up over the last 10 years has average 550,000 sq feet. In 2004, the total was 600,000.

More generally, King Sturge assess that current levels of demand are in line with supply. For anyone who's interested, there's loads more analysis in the Handbook and it's on the City Council's website.

First are moving to a larger site in south Leeds that could open this site for development. It certainly is a prime site that could be a riverside quay possibly. The proximity of hotels, restaurants/cafés and Mayfair/Yorkshire Post as well as the motorway gives this site a good potential for any sort of development really.

I think it will be pretty much new businesses, coming from outside the city. It has been shown that outside businesses are interested in central Leeds by Eversheds moving into BWP.

Eh? Eversheds are relocating from Infirmery Street :bash:

Yeah, but the point is, is that the interest in these developments is high, and demand is. I think its pretty likeley that Infirmary Street could become a shopping street, well to an extent, similar to Bond St. and the Upper part of Albion Street.

That old but nicely re-vamped office building on Wellington Street opposite the King Street junction has let at last. It's been empty for years, and used to have a banner up saying it was the largest grade A space available in Leeds. I always thought that when that goes, the Leeds office market must be running short of available space. It was reported in Yorkshire Post's business supplement on Tuesday, but I saw workers starting to fit it out a couple of weeks ago.

Anyway, I read recently that Leeds had a record year last year and the first part of this year, and all the specularive new build is on course for full occupation as demand for grade A space is still outstripping supply (although the last quarter saw a dip with no big lets going, according to Estates Gazette's Yorkshire supplement this week). I'll have to find where I read it, it may have been the Allsop bi-annual Yorkshire report.