Why in the world dosent Thessaloniki have development?
Can anyone answer?

i can understand athens (obstructing view of Acropolis..) but thessaloniki??
its a city of 1 million for god sake!

Don't ge me wrong but skyscrapers are built as headquarters mostly.Does Greece have such big companies? Maybe some investors could build 1 or 2 skyscrapers and rent the offices to different small individual enterprises but that would be all.

Don't ge me wrong but skyscrapers are built as headquarters mostly.Does Greece have such big companies? Maybe some investors could build 1 or 2 skyscrapers and rent the offices to different small individual enterprises but that would be all.


Of course Greece has big companies what kind of question is that? And I do believe that in the future we will be building higher buildings. It is only a matter of time. But for now, I like Athens the way it is (I also like it developing of course, don't get me wrong, I like to see modernization and all that and Athens has seen its share of that and it continues) but Athens is unique the way it is also.

Have a look at Greece's export numbers,I don't think there are enough companies which eventually could/would build some skyscrapers.If I am wrong please tell me.

Have a look at Greece's export numbers,I don't think there are enough companies which eventually could/would build some skyscrapers.If I am wrong please tell me.


Please do some more research.

First of all, not only "exporting" companies build sky-scrapers. I live in toronto which is the financial capital of Canada and the 4th or 5th largets city of North America. Most of the skyscrapers in downtown Toronto are financial institutions (i.e. banks, insurance companies, and financial services).

Greece has large banks that are taking a central/leadership role in the development/investment of the entire Balkans region well as some very large shipping, importing, and heavy manufacturing companies that would be able to use and support these types of buildings.

Please do some more research.

That's why I visit this forum!

Could you name me some banks and thier values that could/would build some skyscrapers?I know that not only big exporting compnies build skyscrapers but I also didn't know anything about large greek banks.

Again the same story/discussion.
Giorgo file we have discussed this thousand times , if you look the thread of gm about athens and skyscrapers you will have answers also about thessaloniki.
If the capital does not have high rise buildings, there is no way for Thessaloniki to have.

All the cities in greece copy Athens .

@giorgo
i can understand athens (obstructing view of Acropolis..)

This is wrong , that is not the reason why Athens has no skyscrapers, this is true only for the historical center and a region of radius 5km arround Acropolis but it does not stand for north suburbs or south suburbs...


The why-s and the how-s and the is it possible-s are difficult to answer.
It is a variety of reasons.
One of these could be the lack of know-how in the construction of high rise buildings + the strange legislation about the construction of such buildings (too burocratic).
Another reason that someone could say is about the high seismicity of the area (i know that Istanbul has also high seismicity though).



And something else , if i am not wrong Rome has almost no skyscrapers (even far from the city center).

@messiah
Don't ge me wrong but skyscrapers are built as headquarters mostly.Does Greece have such big companies? Maybe some investors could build 1 or 2 skyscrapers and rent the offices to different small individual enterprises but that would be all.

There are some few quite big companies Messiah , but they have other mentality , they dont invest in such modern , high rise buildings, i can not answer to you why !

@Cherry
But for now, I like Athens the way it is (I also like it developing of course, don't get me wrong, I like to see modernization and all that and Athens has seen its share of that and it continues) but Athens is unique the way it is also.

It is unique only arround acropolis and the center.
The other is an ugly soup of commie blocks-polykatoikies-ciment ugly 6 floor buildings.
You are an exception if you like that!
We all hope that things will change, gm in his thread explains why this is not possible to happen in the next few years.


@Messiah

Have a look at Greece's export numbers,I don't think there are enough companies which eventually could/would build some skyscrapers.If I am wrong please tell me.

No we dont take you wrong Messiah , i understand what you want to say , but this is not the reason.
The state does not invest in high rise , so what is left is the provate sector , but like i said there is no interest/will (the why is a long and difficult way to answer) .
As about exports there is no comparison with Turkey of course but the numbers are big enough (first semester of 2005 ~7 billion euro).

No we dont take you wrong Messiah , i understand what you want to say , but this is not the reason.
The state does not invest in high rise , so what is left is the provate sector , but like i said there is no interest/will (the why is a long and difficult way to answer) .
As about exports there is no comparison with Turkey of course but the numbers are big enough (first semester of 2005 ~7 billion euro).

I've never seen any government building skyscrapers,it's always the private sector.In my opinion Greece has no chance to build any skyscrapers since 1) no large int. companies which would like to invest the money for such a project 2)Greece's population is not that high.I mean Turkish export is not that high either(ca. 70 billion $ which was 29 $ in 2001) but we've got a huge young population which is consuming actively more and more.

Beside this you say if the capital Athens don't build any skysrapers so don't the rest ;) The best example would be Istanbul ;) I'm glad of having skyscrapers in my city but my city wasn't less nice 5 years ago when we didn't have any skyscrapers in Istanbul.How many skyscrapers would people from London,Paris,Frankfurt,Warsaw,Rotterdam etc.. give away in order to have such locations,history,atmosphere and climate such as greeks cities have ;)

And what about large manufacturing companies Leafs was referring to? What do they mainly manufacture?

1) no large int. companies which would like to invest the money for such a project
How do you know? I'm interested in this subject..

Messiah , i am glad you are interested in the whole story , i hope i covered some of your questions in my previous post , here i give you some more info about some possible companies that could build a skyscraper but they dont:

Could you name me some banks and thier values that could/would build some skyscrapers?I know that not only big exporting compnies build skyscrapers but I also didn't know anything about large greek banks


1)
National Bank of Greece

http://www.vpanagos.com/images/NBG.jpg

The ldest and largest among Greek banks, heads the strongest financial group in the country. It boasts a dynamic profile internationally, particularly in Southeastern Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean.
Founded in 1841 as a commercial bank, NBG enjoyed the right to issue banknotes until the establishment of the Bank of Greece in 1928. It has been listed on the Athens Stock Exchange since the latter's foundation in 1880. Since October 1999, the Bank has been listed on the New York Stock Exchange.
The Bank has 590 domestic banking units and 1316 ATMs covering the entire geographical area of Greece. It is developing and expanding alternative distribution channels for its products, such as Mobile and Internet banking.After recent acquisitions in the Balkans, NBG’s network overseas has grown to span 328 units across four continents

NBG is becoming a top bank in the Balkans as it buys controlling stakes in banks throughout the region. In the US, NBG owns Atlantic Bank of New York
.
Financial Highlights of NBG Group :

Total assets (2004) : ~53 billion euro
Total equity (2004) : ~2,5 billion euro
Gross operating income (2004) : 2 billion euro
Net profit before tax (2004) : ~600 million euro
Due to customers (2004) : 40 billion euro
Fixed income securities (2004) : ~13 billion euro

The bank has only low rise buildings for all of its activities...

I've never seen any government building skyscrapers,it's always the private sector.In my opinion Greece has no chance to build any skyscrapers since 1) no large int. companies which would like to invest the money for such a project 2)Greece's population is not that high.I mean Turkish export is not that high either(ca. 70 billion $ which was 29 $ in 2001) but we've got a huge young population which is consuming actively more and more.

Beside this you say if the capital Athens don't build any skysrapers so don't the rest ;) The best example would be Istanbul ;) I'm glad of having skyscrapers in my city but my city wasn't less nice 5 years ago when we didn't have any skyscrapers in Istanbul.How many skyscrapers would people from London,Paris,Frankfurt,Warsaw,Rotterdam etc.. give away in order to have such locations,history,atmosphere and climate such as greeks cities have ;)

Messiah i agree , good news have to come from the private sector... :)

As about the other arguments are half - correct , and i explain you why.
When you mention large international companies , it is very general , of course big multinationals invest in big cities but this is not the rule.
Many high rise buildings in many countries are hotels,residentials,offices of local companies etc.
The second argument about population is also half correct , since there are many small population cities , in small population countries that have skyscrapers . :)
Generally i agree with you , but you have to understand that there is a real answer to this question , it just happened that Athens has no skyscrapers.
Perhaps in some years there are some 3-4 buildings but thats it , and except some few like us here who like skyscrapers , very few of the rich companies in Greece care to build a modern high rise building :)

And what about large manufacturing companies Leafs was referring to? What do they mainly manufacture?

Ozcan first of all merhaba , i hope you are fine , long time to see you :)
About your questions , there are some quite big construction groups , who have also undertaken big projects in greece and abroad (mainly balkans and middle east).
For example big metal constructions (stadia and arenas) , the rio antirio bridge, highways,metro tunnels, mountain bridges, railway tunnels,airports etc. in all of these there is a good know how and experience right now.

But for constructing a skyscraper , you need someone to invest , and at the moment no-one invest in such constructions its simple.
Also at the beginning there will be needed a know-how of building high rise buildings since there is no similar experience , but i think this could be overpassed easily for the big companies who have constructed other difficult projects and are financially well.

I don't know the situation in Greece.As I red above other cities in Greece immitate the capital in many ways,this was not clear to me.The things are different in Turkey.For exapmle Istanbul tries to build as expensive,luxury and as high as possible while Ankara tries to build its lowrise classical stonebuildings.Izmir hates high buildings(they could have a nicer skyline than Istanbul and the projects don't get approved) they try to keep the agean atmosphere in the city.Konya builds turkish-oriental buildings also some dubai-ish skyscrapers among them.Every city is proud of that what they own and try to keep it.It has some positives but also negative aspects.

Skaros I thank you many times for the information!I learned something new about Greece today :)

Thanks Skaros, I hope you're fine as well :)

And thanks for the info.. I will also do more research by myself later :)

Messiah I have to remind you that Greece has many local big companies from shipping and shipbuilding, to telecommunications, to Software services, Banks, fuel extraction, process and refinery ones, foodstuff, electric machinery, chemicals, textiles among others.

Also Messiah should I remind you that Greek enterprises specially of the hardware and software telecommunications field are the main investors of the Balkan region having as headquarters cites like Athens and Thessaloniki?

I have to add that these kind of companies I've mentioned above indeed have built and still are building hub structures all around both metropolises but unfortunately there's a trend of raising huge lowrises (mainly of up to 11 stories) but with a big surface area that if they had half or even one third of their incredibly large covered area they could easily reach the 20`s or 30`s levels; money is not problem since they would have the same surface area in sq meters only that distributed in a more vertical pattern and they would cost roughly the same. It's just an antihighrises trend or highrises "fobia" if you will that wanders around the minds of our architects (not all of course) as well as a stupid protectionist law against highrises, which I'm in accordance with in the must-be protected areas but not in places like Maroussi or Kiffisou in the Northern Athens area or Syngrou in Southern Athens where we could easily have a La Defence Athenian version.

So as you can see there're companies whith affordable millions to spend in such structures but it's just highrise building will what they lack of.

Finally I have to mention that many of the few highrises we have in Athens (some 50) are indeed headquarters of such companies like for instance OTE a company that invested in two different highrises in two different moments of time. One in the 60's and another one in the 80's in accordance with the architectural style canons of the time of construction.

Again the same story/discussion.

@Cherry


It is unique only arround acropolis and the center.
The other is an ugly soup of commie blocks-polykatoikies-ciment ugly 6 floor buildings.
You are an exception if you like that!
We all hope that things will change, gm in his thread explains why this is not possible to happen in the next few years.


Skaros you misunderstood me. I was reffering to Athens being unique in that we don't have hardly any skyscrapers in the city and that mostly everything is level. I like that we are unique in that way! We differ from other highrise cities in that way don't you think? Do you honeslty think though that I like the sections of Athens that are bland and just slabs of blocks and rock??? Come on! I don't think that any Greek likes this. With that said though, I am an Athenian and have loved this city even with its shortcommings, I have also cursed them too! I've seen it evolve over the years into a more functional city... do you remember just a few short years ago what a lack of infrastructure there was? (and this is not to say that we still don't need big improvements). But there have been improvements, no one can deny this! And the city center is wonderful yes, but there are other parts of Athens that are just as good, like the northern suburbs (I live there and there are some really nice areas!). So please, don't think that I am in favour of the status quo, because I'm not.

P.S. And even if skyscrapers are built, they will most likely be developed in a region away from the city center, so that the charm the current city has is never changed.

Skaros I thank you many times for the information!I learned something new about Greece today :)

Anytime friend! :)

@Cherry

No comment , i agree to what you wrote! :)

Well, Messiah if you're still around, here are the top 500 Greek companies.. it's a strange site though..

http://www.top500.de/g0036200.htm#gesamt

Is there any site which shows the correct order of all european companies?Does anyone know such a site?

Greatest bank of Greece is much greater than the greatest bank of Turkey I think.

@Tekir
i dont know about that , i just wanted to point out that such big companies like the national bank could build a skyscraper but they just dont do it.
This is the kind of modern low rise buildings used from the bank as one of its headquarters (in the center of athens)

http://www.spitia.gr/10architectdays/MVC-080F.JPG


And some info about
http://www.atlantic-bank-ny.com/images/logo_main.gif

Atlantic Bank of New York is a full-service commercial bank with more than $3.0 billion in assets, placing it in the top five percent of all commercial banks in the United States and ranking it among the top 20 largest banks in the New York metropolitan area.

Atlantic Bank has a 75 year history of serving the financial needs of small businesses and middle market companies, commercial real estate entrepreneurs, investors and consumers.


@
Messiah there are some lists , try to search the financial magazines!

generally speaking and to put an end to this discussion , for the next 5 years there is not going to be build any skyscraper in athens , and in my opinion it will never going to happen .
Its just how it is , some cities have skyscrapers and some (even few) dont , its simple. Lets dont get tired with lengthy discussions without end and perspective!

:)

greece hasn't skyscraper because they dont want... is a european country, th best in balkans.. in Lima my city there is skyscraper and Greece is so much richer than Peru..........

I thing one of the biggest hellenic companies ( if not the biggest ) is A.G Petzetakis

http://www.petzetakis.gr

As for the thought to build skyscrapers in athens or any other city of hellas, me and the majority ( i thing ) of the citizens of this country we say a big NO to this prospect.

^^
Why do you say that Konstantinoupolis?

I am moving to Athens next year. I will start a "build skyscrapers in Athens organization". :D

First of all, hello to everybody...


I am glad that Giorgos opened again this can of worms with regards to Athens and its highrises, (after all, the name of this forum is still skyscrapercity if I am correct) and thus I will be able draw again your attention in some facts that I referred to in some previous posts, including the full story as described in my Athens Skyscrapers Thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=216281) where you will have all your primary questions answered.

Now, some points to be clarified:

@ Konstantinoupolis:

I don't think it is correct to say 0that Athenians or Greeks would say no to skyscrapers. Most people I know, even the most conservative, they may be sceptic after so many years of lowrise domination in the city but they would give it a chance, in fact they wouldn't object at all the chance of "reasonably sized" (meaning not above 150m to my understanding) skyscrapers to be built in Maroussi, Elaionas or Drapetsona. The only thing they are afraid of is preserving the sight of the Acropolis which is a given, anyways.

On the contrary, if you check the poll of the Athens skyscrapers thread, the numbers of people for highrise construction in Athens (especially up to 40 storeys, I don't think we will build more than this, anyway) are increasingly high. The same pertains to the discussion (inn Greek) in Stadia.gr (click here (http://www.stadia.gr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39&start=575) to start from a good point for the latest discussion) where people simply ask the same question: What is so wrong about building skyscrapers in Maroussi or any other place 10-15km from the Acropolis?

I wouldn't say that most people I know would go for a demonstration to Syntagma Square and demand the construction of skyscrapers. However, most of the people I know, I repeat, they would discuss the possibility of construction in areas that are far away from historical sites and whare construction of these buildings would not traumatize what we came to know as "traditional Athenian Landscape"

@ Messiah

Athens looked like this in the mid-1970's

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22633/35730/429103/0/Athens+-+From+Pendeli+-+5+-+May+2005-+small800x.jpg

...unfortunately, nothing's changed since then

...so, the discussion about not having money or corporations is not entirely correct. We have seen a construction boom in the 1970's which was abruptly interrupted in 1980, due to a number of political reasons (skyscrapers were wrongly seen as an icon of capitalism and the military Junda that ruled Greece from 1967 to 1974, something that the democratic -and especially - the socialist governments from 1981 to 2004 saw it like a bull sees a "red flag" )

On the contrary, the size and scale of other constructions and projects in the last decade signify the fact that the Greek companies can build easily up to 40 storeys. It is the will that's lacking and what we call in English "fixations" ( στα Ελληνικά η λέξη είναι "ιδεοληψίες" :D ).

If we didn't have these fixations, the Phaleron Delta (the best part of the Athenian coast ) would have looked like this since the 1970's:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22634/35748/429285/0/Phaleron+Delta++-+small800x.jpg

buildings like this would have been built somewhere in the northern suburbs since the mid 1970's:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22634/35748/429293/0/Never+built-DEH+tower2-small.jpg

and overall, building tall for corporate towers would have given certain areas a more grandiose picture. In any case, I hope that something may be cooking as pressures for something bigger and taller are already underway... Santiago Calatrava proposed the reconstruction of the Thessaliniki International fair where one of the centrepoints will be 150m-tall TV observation tower.

The government officials seemed to have raised an eyebrow on this, but information is still sketchy...

And yes, other cities follow Athens in terms of development although Thessaloniki many times paves its own way too...



@ Zorba

Please contact me if you do something like this... :):):)

I thing one of the biggest hellenic companies ( if not the biggest ) is A.G Petzetakis

http://www.petzetakis.gr

As for the thought to build skyscrapers in athens or any other city of hellas, me and the majority ( i thing ) of the citizens of this country we say a big NO to this prospect.

Kostantine the biggest (i thing) is www.maillis.gr (http://)

The Group operates in more than 52 countries worldwide, through a network of 25 owned Affiliate companies and more than three hundred independent distributors.
Through its corporate strategies of high value, vertically integrated production, growth through organic and acquisitive expansion, product / market globalization and decentralized operations, M.J. Maillis has evolved from a privately owned company into a multinational industrial corporation.
The Group operates manufacturing units in Greece, Spain, UK, Italy, Germany, Poland, Romania and Canada. The list of M.J.MAILLIS Group Affiliates comprises of Affiliate companies in Bulgaria, Romania, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Spain, UK, Italy, Austria, France, Sweden and Canada distributing all type of packaging products and systems.

Sorry to interfere again, but in case you haven't seen this photo, I believe you should see it. Beauty and ugliness in one photo, the Athens Tower and Lycabettus Hill side by side as seen from a friend's apartment in the area of Goudi...

Also posted in the original Athens skyscrapers thread.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22634/35743/475127/0/Athens+Tower+and+Lycabettus.jpg

Greatest bank of Greece is much greater than the greatest bank of Turkey I think.

Because we have too many banks in this country... We are sorting that problem though...

I've never seen any government building skyscrapers,it's always the private sector.In my opinion Greece has no chance to build any skyscrapers since 1) no large int. companies which would like to invest the money for such a project 2)Greece's population is not that high.I mean Turkish export is not that high either(ca. 70 billion $ which was 29 $ in 2001) but we've got a huge young population which is consuming actively more and more.

Beside this you say if the capital Athens don't build any skysrapers so don't the rest ;) The best example would be Istanbul ;) I'm glad of having skyscrapers in my city but my city wasn't less nice 5 years ago when we didn't have any skyscrapers in Istanbul.How many skyscrapers would people from London,Paris,Frankfurt,Warsaw,Rotterdam etc.. give away in order to have such locations,history,atmosphere and climate such as greeks cities have ;)


Wtf are you talking about?? Israel has 4 million people less and it builds these buildings. Greece is in the top 15 most visited countries on the planet...why would int companies wanna invest in Istanbul as opposed to Athens? Athens is richer after all.

why would int companies wanna invest in Istanbul as opposed to Athens? Athens is richer after all.

Why? Because Istanbul is as big as Greece is. It has a much bigger economy than Athens has. IT's a world city. Plus it's the major city of a G20 country, leading economy and country of it's region, an emerging economy which is also again much bigger than Greek economy.

These are the reasons...

Guys, the point is not money, it's urban ideology. And allow me to say that George is right here... smaller countries have built skyscrapers after all. Onb the other hand, Istanbul is also one of the most visited cities on the planet, George. What should be investigated is a comparison of corporate activity in Athens vs Istanbul. Apart from that, Istanblue may have less expensive rents and cost of living. All these things count if one is to consider a city as its corporate base.

AFter all, skyscrapers are not everything in a city. Athens or Istanblue have other beauties, many other cities in the world would die for to have...

Wtf are you talking about?? Israel has 4 million people less and it builds these buildings. Greece is in the top 15 most visited countries on the planet...why would int companies wanna invest in Istanbul as opposed to Athens? Athens is richer after all.

Is there any way to talk normally to some of you?!! I was interested in that topic and wanted to have some information.I was told by many greek forumers that I'm wrong and they gave me examples and told the truth!That's exactly I was expecting!Why do you have to talk like that and start to compare Istanbul to Athens etc..?(Btw I could give you many reasons why people would like to invest in Istanbul but that's not the right topic for) I'm sorry for my question and research on greek cities,I take them all back!I knew there would be someone who get me wrong that's why I said at the beginning of my post "guys don't get me wrong.." But sorry again,don't take my question seriuosly in this topic,ignoe them!

Athens is a big city and through careful urban planning it can fit some skyscrapers in. Conserving the historical sites should be more of priority though. Anybody can have a skyscraper, but none can have historical sites well conserved.

I beleive that there should be no rush for skyscrapers and that careful urban planning require a long time to be worked on. Lowrises build with style can offer new dimensions to cities. In Tirana we have a living example of this with a project designed by MVRDV in one of the main squares.

Regarding Government buildings being hosted into highrises I don't think Greece would like to have US like profile in architecture or other countries like that. Although I don't know Greece very well I can make some parallels with Tirana if I may. The National Bank of Albania is hosted in a very important building for the city, and despite it is not a modern one as it was built in the 30s it is very important to the overall urban development history of the city. The same applies to other government buildings located in the main boulevard. I think Greece has simmiliar examples and usually transfering offices from this kind of buildings to skyscrapers is not an acceptable alternative. Even with the recent developments in Tirana, when the center master plan was approved, only 10 highrises were allowed space to be built. Coastal cities in Greece, that recieve many tourists, may opt for a more "modern" look, cause say if I visit Athens, it would be to see the historical part of it and having some scyscrapers around would put such a wealth in shadow.

Athens is a big city and through careful urban planning it can fit some skyscrapers in. Conserving the historical sites should be more of priority though. Anybody can have a skyscraper, but none can have historical sites well conserved.

I beleive that there should be no rush for skyscrapers and that careful urban planning require a long time to be worked on. Lowrises build with style can offer new dimensions to cities. In Tirana we have a living example of this with a project designed by MVRDV in one of the main squares.

Regarding Government buildings being hosted into highrises I don't think Greece would like to have US like profile in architecture or other countries like that. Although I don't know Greece very well I can make some parallels with Tirana if I may. The National Bank of Albania is hosted in a very important building for the city, and despite it is not a modern one as it was built in the 30s it is very important to the overall urban development history of the city. The same applies to other government buildings located in the main boulevard. I think Greece has simmiliar examples and usually transfering offices from this kind of buildings to skyscrapers is not an acceptable alternative. Even with the recent developments in Tirana, when the center master plan was approved, only 10 highrises were allowed space to be built. Coastal cities in Greece, that recieve many tourists, may opt for a more "modern" look, cause say if I visit Athens, it would be to see the historical part of it and having some scyscrapers around would put such a wealth in shadow.

Great post Illiricum!!!

I agree wholeheartedly. Although I love skyscrapers, any city can build them (rich or poor). But let's be honest here. The "skyscraper" was first an American phenomenon but now is seen all over the world. And it is kind of sad, though. Personally, I do not like seeing great cities with rich histories like Istanbul or Warsaw or many of the Asian cities that simply look like your typical American city with a skyline. It is robbing the cities of what they really should be showcasing: their historical and majestic buildings.

In Athens, if they continue to repair and restore the classical buildings and build homes and offices as they are in the northern suberbs, the city will improve immensely as time goes on. In these northern regions of Athens I believe that some of the foreign companies and larger Greek companies can build some skyscarpers at a height that GM described.

Skyscrapers do not make a city. If you want to look at a city with incredible architecture, history, and tourism, then look at Rome. it is beatutiful and it, too, has no skyscrapers or skyline. I don't hear the Romans complaining.

Great post Illiricum!!!

I agree wholeheartedly. Although I love skyscrapers, any city can build them (rich or poor). But let's be honest here. The "skyscraper" was first an American phenomenon but now is seen all over the world. And it is kind of sad, though. Personally, I do not like seeing great cities with rich histories like Istanbul or Warsaw or many of the Asian cities that simply look like your typical American city with a skyline. It is robbing the cities of what they really should be showcasing: their historical and majestic buildings.

In Athens, if they continue to repair and restore the classical buildings and build homes and offices as they are in the northern suberbs, the city will improve immensely as time goes on. In these northern regions of Athens I believe that some of the foreign companies and larger Greek companies can build some skyscarpers at a height that GM described.

Skyscrapers do not make a city. If you want to look at a city with incredible architecture, history, and tourism, then look at Rome. it is beatutiful and it, too, has no skyscrapers or skyline. I don't hear the Romans complaining.

These are my sentiments as well. Any country rich or poor can build skyscrapers as we've seen. And even though Athens doens't hardly have any I think that with some proper urban planning, restoring (which has been going on) etc. Athens will become even more beautiful and more functional city! We have great potential, we always had it! Also, I wouldn't be against the idea of building some skyscrapers in the future (even though I like that our city is not a skyscraper type of city) provided that they are built in designated areas away from the city center.

^^ You are wrong... Poor countries and cities cannot build skyscrapers. I don't mean one or two. I mean having a skyline and filling them with everything... It's the matter of the money.

^^ You are wrong... Poor countries and cities cannot build skyscrapers. I don't mean one or two. I mean having a skyline and filling them with everything... It's the matter of the money.


so what do you call countries in South America or some of the Far East nations that have hundreds of skyscrapers?

I don't mean poor like Ethiopia, but poorer, developing nations often have many skyscrapers.

so what do you call countries in South America or some of the Far East nations that have hundreds of skyscrapers?

I don't mean poor like Ethiopia, but poorer, developing nations often have many skyscrapers.

I guess you mean Brazil, Malaysia, Taiwan? These countries are big emerging economies. Skyscrapers are the sign of huge economical activity. You can't really show Rome as an example cuz this city is like an open museum, plus the home for Vatican. Go to south to Napoli you'll see alot of Skyscrapers...

Small economies can't build skyscrapers cuz they don't need it...

I guess you mean Brazil, Malaysia, Taiwan? These countries are big emerging economies. Skyscrapers are the sign of huge economical activity. You can't really show Rome as an example cuz this city is like an open museum, plus the home for Vatican. Go to south to Napoli you'll see alot of Skyscrapers...

Small economies can't build skyscrapers cuz they don't need it...

If you re-read my message from before you will see that I called these countries "developing" which is another economic term for "emerging".

That being said, these are countries that may be developing but still have huge segments of their population living in horrid slums and poverty.

And I wouldn't say that small economies can't build skyscrapers. Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel are all small to mid economies and they all have skyscrapers.

Athens (and the rest of Greece) doesn't have skyscrapers because of the laws and general thought against them... people don't want them.


But if you look at all the signs, they are needed. Office space is harder and harder to find. Instead of building a medium size skyscraper. they build lower with more land... Central Athens was destroyed so they could build bigger buildings. Now the neoclassical beauty of it will probably never come back, but instead it's alot of concrete everywhere. The ideal would have been to preserve it, and build business districts higher and in different locations.

I think easily a small cluster of skyscrapers in Maroussi (or a couple other spots) could be built. The business, the demand and the ability is all there. But the restrictions and general "against" feeling of the population is what holds it back. Eventually, there will be no other choice....

Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel are all small to mid economies and they all have skyscrapers.

Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel... all have multinational companies... and still don't have a huge cluster...

What people tend to overlook, when over-analysing "emerging economies" as they like to call them, is that Athens boasts one of the largest and busiest ports in the world and among the top in Europe.

"Piraeus is placed among the first 50 ports (No.49 in 2003) in container traffic worldwide and among the top containers ports in the Mediterranean."
"Piraeus is the largest passenger port in Europe and one of the largest passenger ports in the world. It services 20 million passengers annually approximately (including the Salamina - Perama commuting service which handles appr. 8 million passengers annually)"
Please compare with other ports / cities that do have skyscrappers.

That alone would be a very healthy ground for tiny Hellas, to have skyscrappers (be it shipping companies or whatever). You see a country's size does not necessarily coincide with economic growth (especially in fields like shipping) and the need or necessity or as some like to put it ABILITY to accomodate skyscrappers.

Additionally, in the tourism industry, nothing could stop a hotel chain like Hilton to go vertically rather than horizontally, as it did in preparations for Athens 2004.

But as so many people before - who know much better - have stressed, what REALLY stops vertical development is the laws and what gm so emphatically has stressed over and over again the "mentality".

Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel... all have multinational companies... and still don't have a huge cluster...

Well what is your definition of a huge cluster?

I don't think that Istanbul's is a huge cluster. There are many in Istanbul but not as huge a cluster as you would find in American and Canadian cities or in Hong Kong, Japan, or Australia.
However, I feel it is a good balance between the old and new architecture in Istanbul.

What people tend to overlook, when over-analysing "emerging economies" as they like to call them, is that Athens boasts one of the largest and busiest ports in the world and among the top in Europe.

"Piraeus is placed among the first 50 ports (No.49 in 2003) in container traffic worldwide and among the top containers ports in the Mediterranean."
"Piraeus is the largest passenger port in Europe and one of the largest passenger ports in the world. It services 20 million passengers annually approximately (including the Salamina - Perama commuting service which handles appr. 8 million passengers annually)"
Please compare with other ports / cities that do have skyscrappers.

That alone would be a very healthy ground for tiny Hellas, to have skyscrappers (be it shipping companies or whatever). You see a country's size does not necessarily coincide with economic growth (especially in fields like shipping) and the need or necessity or as some like to put it ABILITY to accomodate skyscrappers.

Additionally, in the tourism industry, nothing could stop a hotel chain like Hilton to go vertically rather than horizontally, as it did in preparations for Athens 2004.

But as so many people before - who know much better - have stressed, what REALLY stops vertical development is the laws and what gm so emphatically has stressed over and over again the "mentality".


Athens may have a busy port but mainly serves to passengers, not to cargo ships. It's more touristic not commercial. If it would have been so then we would have another Hong Kong in Athens.

ANyway i hope to see highrises in Athens...

Well what is your definition of a huge cluster?



Those countries except Israel don't have a cluster... They have a couple of Skyscrapers...

Athens may have a busy port but mainly serves to passengers, not to cargo ships. It's more touristic not commercial. If it would have been so then we would have another Hong Kong in Athens.

ANyway i hope to see highrises in Athens...


You are so wrong. Re-read Poliochni's post carefully:

Piraeus is placed among the first 50 ports (No.49 in 2003) in container traffic worldwide and among the top containers ports in the Mediterranean."

Do you know what container cargo is? Do you even bother to read the posts?

Please only speak about Athens if you know what you are speaking of.

. It's more touristic not commercial.

You are wrong. It was No.49 (and in top 5 in the Med and No.12 in Europe) for container traffic (not just passengers). With HONG KONG Obvioulsy being No.1 and Singapore No.2!

Obviously being no.49 doesn't help... :) Actually i'd expect a higher rank from Greece considering it's shipping industry...

That was 2003 though ! There is a steady growth so by now, Piraeus could have made it between Hong Kong and Singapore !!!!

Seriously now, one would expect a port that is a point of reference to be able to "accomodate" skyscrappers. It did not happen, when it could have, it seems it wont happen. Well, that's life.

The only point I was trying to make was, that you dont have to be a huge city or a huge economy to have skyscrappers. There are always sectors of the economy that are doing well. Banking, telecommunications, tourism, shipping. Greece might be a tiny country yet, there are businesses withing the above sector that if they really wanted to, they could relocate to skyscrappers (Im saying this with respect to the rather "black or white" attitude that small countries, small economies, cannot, wouldnot, should not build skyscrappers).

In the short time that Athens was favorable to highrises, 3-4 popped up with no problem. Then again it went into a huge decline to which it would never recover, Athens being anti-skyscraper. If this was not the case, there is absoloutely no doubt in my mind Athens would have more skyscrapers, and probably a nice cluster....

Just in a period of about 10 years, Athens had it's only experience with skyscrapers on a medium scale level. (nothing over 110m) This could have easily grown up till 2005 IMO, especially during the Olympics and needed hotel space (easily) and the different big business Greece have.

Athens tower

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4024/athenstower0wp.jpg
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5011/athenstower23la.jpg

Atrina Tower

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=171894
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1324/athensatrinacentertower10small.jpg
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7236/atrinacentre8rk.jpg
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9254/pressvillageandatrinatowerfrom.jpg


Apollo Tower

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=110578


OTE Headquarters

http://www.airphotos.gr/photo/254.jpg
http://www.airphotos.gr/photo/996.jpg


President Hotel

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=126489


And as you can see from most of the pics, there are many buildings that build medium size in larger area rather than up higher. Even some of the skyscrapers are built in ways that they don't go as high as they can. Even have 2nd buildings next to them which could easily make 1 big one.....

I think this thread has be left clean from endless idiot discussion unrelated to this problem. I am participating as I think we we can have a discussion of quality that goes above stupid disagreements in the forum and because this is related to my country as well as we face some simmiliar problem.

If I may participate without causing any discomfort with the information, I am proceeding with my opinion on the matter and please tell if this causes any kind of problem between the Greeks here.

Butrint, in southern Albania, is ancient archeological site, considred by UNESCO to be the best preserved and original site showing the history of the last 3000 thousand years of the Mediterrenian and is located in Butrinti National Park, a short distance from the island of Corfu. The region is amazing in beauty as the Ionian coast is just there and the nature has been well preserved. Recently there were many national and international investors wanting to build huge things there and boost tourism. Albania's modest economy is in need of such investments but on the other hand, such developments would jeopardize the site, thus all constructions and investment in buildings were stopped in order to avoid pollution and the archeological site which is of importance to Albania, Greece and the whole Mediterrenian as an open book of their history. Albania thus refuses development in the region to preserve what cannot be reproduced and Greece does the same.

Furthermore, Greece has to preserve its Mediterrenean identity in architecture which I think makes the country special. Of course, alternatives can be found. Brasilia is an example that can be applied in Greece as well. Build a whole new city that should serve as the industrial and economic center of the country. Greek economy allows this and of course private investments in a well planned area are not goig to miss.

Tirana before becoming the capital in 1920 was not of any interest or any architecural development. It developed both architecturally and urbanistically in the '30s. The progress stopped in WWII and during communism no architectural values were added. With the '90s it became chaotic and from 1999 everything began from start where progress stopped, thus from where the '30s left the city. Albania is a modest economy and businesses hardly have the money to invest in highrises. In 2004 a new master plan was approved for the city center planning 10, 85m buildings to be constructed in the center.

One of the highrises, named TID Tower, started construction recently and its cost will be 20.000.000€.

http://ns1.esposysserver.net/~admin45/51n4e/pics/projects/TID%20TOW1/067_TID_0_promotor%20image.jpg

Its cost was difficult to be attractive to a single business thus a coalition was formed made up of national businesses, called the Tirana International Development, thus TID. Through this cooperation they have set up a group to make it possible for such projects to be realized. The same can be applied in Greece as well. If yu see the picture carefully, you will notice a small structure of arcs just in the right corner of the building. This is the monument of the founder of Tirana (he was burried there upon his death). This fact was of primary consideration in choosing the design for this building as the monument had to be preserved at all costs. Thus the designed was tricked and it also offered a better view of the monument. Choosing designs carefully can make it possible for highrises to be built in many Greek cities as well without seriously affecting the surrounding enviroment.

It is my belief though, that building a city from scratch, although it may take some time, is the best solution for an industrial and economical center both in appearance, function and accessibility is the best option for Greece. Investors can invest either privately or in groups and it will definitely add to something to the country. Of course this may sound too difficult to achieve, but I personally believe that with a careful urban and economical planning this is more then possible and there have been countries with worse economies then Greece doing this. A step like this would contribute not only in attracting construction businesses, as they want to build higher because it is more economic, but also take away some of the industrial load from other main cities, which would also result in lowering pollution and other good things. Of course highrises have to be functional and the following should considered:

1: Is the construction business interested in building higher? Can this be planned with their interest in mind?

2: Do big businesses need more space? Would they profit in long term from such developments?

3: Are cities over populated ad thus over polluted by the low rise policy?

4: Can Greece plan such a city and can it make the money and time put in worth it?

I would answer yes to the questions above.

First, the construction business is more interested in building higher cause land area is smaller while the usable area is bigger then in low rises, thus the profit margin increases. Providing such spaces for the construction business contributes very well to the country economy as whole and can increase employement.

An other point is that businesses fro practical purposes would stick to the idea because a well planned enviroment, offering them more space is more effective.

It is not the need for people to see highrises but the need for the country to have a space for the big businesses and modern architectural achievments. Never forget that Greece has superior reputation in architecture in ancient times and it would be good to have as good quality modern architecture as well and a national revival in terms of architecture in Greece is more then needed, but in no way, can Greece affect its ancient treasures as they are not only places go and see, but a vital part of the Greek nation and people. When people think of Greece, the first thing that goes in your mind is the Acropolis and ancient Greece with all its achievments (now there is coffe and buzukis as well but I will limit myself to architecture) and I think that it would be harm to such a rich heritage to pollute such living proof of past where Greece was one of the world leaders in architecture, often copied but never immitated.

What the country needs is a new city, built preferably from Greek urbanists and architects, to introduce new concepts on use of space, administration of pollution, urbanism and provide new opportunities for the construction business as offer space and more functionality for bigger businesses. Greece is the biggest investor in the Balkans and it holds major companies of telecommunications in Albania alone where the profits are high. This will pay off and the economy will further increase and the provision of such spaces will become eminent.

I would love to visit Greece one day, and see Greeks getting back as leaders in architecture, something to leave to next generations and not high cubes of concrete. What I am talking about may sound uthopic to many, but the examples of such actions are all over the world, the potential is there and the need as well.

i likle the idea. However it would never happen. Were will it happen? Does Athens need it? is there demand in Athens. id say there is, but some corps may op to build lowrise

I guess you mean Brazil, Malaysia, Taiwan? These countries are big emerging economies. Skyscrapers are the sign of huge economical activity. You can't really show Rome as an example cuz this city is like an open museum, plus the home for Vatican. Go to south to Napoli you'll see alot of Skyscrapers...

Small economies can't build skyscrapers cuz they don't need it...

Really you don't know what you're saying.

The size of the Greek economy is almost half of Turkey's. Considering it is 1/6th the size this is pretty big. And Malaysia? The Greek economy is just as big, but the country is smaller.

Do you know how many Greek companies are on Europe's largest 500 companies compared to some larger nations (HINT HINT)?

http://specials.ft.com/spdocs/europe500_2005.pdf

Do you know that Greece is the largest foreign investor in the nations of Bulgaria, S&M, Albania, Romania and FYROM?

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2005/07/20/ap2148540.html

Nevermind the cost of low rise office compexes versus high rises, IT MAKES SENSE. Considering the room shortage in Athens we will not be able to build out for long. Building UP is the only solution.

So spare me your excuses. The reason there are no skyscrapers in Greece and in Athens is because the planners and officials and architects and citizens have not embraced them. They've held contempt for them, NOT because they aren't needed.

http://www.globaleye.org.uk/secondary/focuson/lskyline.jpg
http://www.airzim.co.zw/images/harare2.jpg

Pics are from Nairobi and Harare respectively. 2 much much smaller economies. And we see why we few Greeks are angry. We expect more.

Guys, why don't you consider Monaco? it's much much smaller than any other country discussed here and yet, the number of highrises in there is probably bigger than the total of Greece. It's a matter of choice, not economics...

That's absolutely the point I agree with of course.

Check also the Panama city! This is a so smaller country in terms of population and economy!


Country Population
Panama 3mil
Greece 11mil

City Population
Panama 1.3mil
Athens_ 3.7mil

GDP
Panama 20bill $
Greece 226bill $ (!)

Government Budget (expenditures)
Panama 4bill $
Greece 65bill $


"Data from CIA Worldfactbook"

2004 Skyline Panama City
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/coronado129/f44ec96b.jpg

Also check those
Future Projects http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=261197

Current Buildings http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=256581&page=1&pp=20

:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:

Wow!!!! Never hears of a skyline in Panama! Did you now that the gdp ppp in Panama is only 6-900$? There is something wrong in this city!

Really you don't know what you're saying.
Do you know how many Greek companies are on Europe's largest 500 companies compared to some larger nations (HINT HINT)?

http://specials.ft.com/spdocs/europe500_2005.pdf

According to this list (500 biggest European companies) Greece has 8 companies and Turkey 7, so you guys have one company more ;)

Greece

181. National Bank of Greece
210. EFG Eurobank Ergasias
221. OPAP
250. Alpha Bank
293. Public Power Group
309. Coca Cola Hellenic Bottling
314. Cosmote Mobile Telecommunications
451. Bank of Piraeus

Turkey

199. Turkcell
216. Turkiye Is Bankasi
269. Akbank
388. Turkiye Garanti Bankasi
413. Sabanci
433. Koc Holding
458. Turkish Petroleum Refineries

How is the concept of size being determined? Gross Sales/ Turnover, asset value, how?

Anyway, I knew about the National Bank of Greece but I am surprised to see that the EFG/Ergasias Bank ranks that high. Funny thing, these guys for instance they accomodate their head offices in an 8-storey ultra-modern building in Philellinon street, close to Syntagma Square. I mean, ultra modern but just 8 floors.

However, Latsis, the owner is the sun og Giannis Latsis, one of the biggest Greek shipowners of the Aristotle Onassis generation.

Latsis owns the Lambda development property development company. Their biggest projects under completion at the moment are the "Mall Athens" 60,000sq metres of commercial space with a 15-theatre Village Roadshow multiplex in Athens and the 40,000 sq metre "Mediterranean Kosmos" in Pylaia, Thessaloniki all due this fall :)

Ozcan, Greece has more major corps than turkey, a country with 5 6 times the population of greece, and twice the amount of exports.

I don't think it is related with economy. It looks like building habit of Greece and local laws are not in favour of high buildings.

For my account, it is almost same in Ankara. Although we have plenty of highrise governmental offices, hotels and residentals. "Architectures Room of Ankara" has canceled many highrises, and also many of them was built lower than they were projected to be, because of local city planning rules and regulations limiting the density of the building in a certain lot.

It is a matter or architectural vision and culture.

Istanbul has it. Athens does not.

Shame.

I agree with the last two posts. A lot depend on the vision of a city to boost its image. Athens didn't seem willing to allocate space for a future downtown, nor the existing infrastructure would support such district in the [already overloaded] center. Athens may end up with something like La Defense, in Paris; I was shocked to find out that La Defense is actually in the suburbs. I am sure you guys have seen it before, but here it is, anyway:

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/114/2920/640/La%20Defense.jpg

Athens could end up with something like this, but it has to be done way out there, where nobody would object. I am not saying that Athens is lead by NIMBY's, but there are a lot of legitimate objections for building high-rises in the center. Who knows, it may happen some day ;)

Ozcan, Greece has more major corps than turkey, a country with 5 6 times the population of greece, and twice the amount of exports.
What do you mean?

Didn't you see the list of Greek and Turkish companies (that are among the 500 biggest of Europe) I posted above?
Obviously, Turkey being a bigger country has a larger economy, thus more small and medium-sized companies than Greece.

@gm2263

I don't know how they exactly calculate it :)

Ozcan, we can also see how similar the two countries' large companies are in terms of activities.

Banks, Telecoms, Power etc.

I didn't want to get involved this thread... But I will write only one and last...

First of all, why some friends brought the subject Athens vs. Istanbul, I don't know. Giorgos' question was different.

Giorgos, Thessaloniki can't get skyscrapers, because it is not the fiancial center of Greece. Except USA, Canada, Australia (federal states), in other countries of the world there is only one finace center city. This is Paris in France, London in UK, Frankfurt in Germany, Milano in Italy ect... And it is Athens for Greece.

To the people who say Athens has not architectural vision and culture
I saw so much achitectural culture there and an organic city. Athens has this culture and this is why doesn't have skyscrapares... This culture is an achitectural culture wich comes from the ages. Because of this Italy has no high rise either...

skyscrapers, covered shopping malls are suited to Turkish culture, this is why we have them. If you look at our architecture every forms rise up, minarets, towers ect... Our all cites are full of these... Also, in historical Turkish cities you always find a covered Grand Bazaar. This is why we have shopping malls at every neigbourhoods now.

Al other stuffs are useless words...The reality is this...

THANK YOU KUVVACI!! you answered the question i wanted to know! :okay:

we can keep discusing what is being discussed here, its interesting and very productive.