À Montréal, l'imam de la mosquée Al-Qods, Jaziri Saïd, veut faire construire une grande mosquée au centre-ville de Montréal. Le projet, évalué au minimum à 20 millions de dollars, serait financé aux trois quarts par l'Arabie Saoudite et les Émirats arabes unis.

La grande mosquée comprendrait une grande salle de prières pour 3000 fidèles, une salle de conférence et une bibliothèque islamique. Il demande à la Ville de Montréal de céder un terrain du centre-ville à la communauté musulmane pour la construction.

Selon l'imam Saïd, un tel projet enrichirait l'urbanisme et l'architecture montréalaise. Il rappelle que des villes comme Chicago, Londres et Paris ont déjà leur grande mosquée, tandis que Detroit, au Michigan, vient d'inaugurer la plus grande mosquée en Amérique du Nord.

« Pourquoi pas Montréal, avec ses 200 000 musulmans ? », demande-t-il. Selon lui, la ville est en retard sur le reste du monde à ce chapitre.

Avant d'officialiser leur participation, Riyad et Abou Dhabi exigent cependant que les autorités fédérales, provinciales et municipales donnent leur aval au projet. M. Saïd en appelle à un « esprit de bonne volonté de la part des gouvernements ».

Selon lui, le projet contribuerait à combattre les préjugés envers les musulmans. Il ne craint pas non plus d'affirmer qu'un refus de la part des gouvernements « serait axé sûrement sur des préjugés. »

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En partant, je trouve ca un peu ridicule qu'ils jouent la carte des préjugés...
Je vois pas comment la ville pourrait accepter qu'on installe une réplique du moyen-âge au centre-ville, ce qui déferait grandement l'architecture environnante ... et évidemment si la ville refuse, c'est que nous serons des sans-coeurs racistes...

Simple???
Qu'en pensez-vous, j'aimerais l'opinion de musulmans aussi !

Je suis tout à fait d'accord avec toi.
La mairie ne peut pas accepter un project de ce type à Montréal.

Oui je partage ton opinion...
Je ne pense pas que de ne pas avoir de mosquée rend la ville "en retard sur le reste du monde", et en faire autant pour 200 000 musulmans, ça me paraît beaucoup...
Bref, à mon avis ça serait pas plus mal que l'imam Saïd remballe ses cartons et qu'il laisse le centre ville tranquille...

On peut avoir des rendus de cette mosquée ?

Un lieu de culte est destiné à la prière et au recueillement: il doit être sobre et non pas ostentatoire. Plutôt qu'une "Grande Mosquée" unique, il est préférable de créer de petites mosquée de quartier comme on le fait désormais en Europe.

Où sera la mosquée embâtir?

Où sera la mosquée embâtir?

hummmmmmm, good question! I don't have any idea yet..

C'est que cet Imam ne se fait plus d'amis en disant qu'un refus de la part de la ville serait considéré comme ds préjugés.

Je suis contre ce projet, mais pas pcq c'est une mosque,mais que c'est un endroit religieux. Je dirais la même chose si c'était une cathédrale ou une synagogue. Non merci, pas au centre ville.

Si ils veulent construire une méga mosque, qu'ils aillent la construire à Laval ou ailleurs en banlieu, mais pas au C-V, où les terrains se font de plus en plus rares, et qu'ils pourraient un jour accueuillir une nouvelle tour en hauteure!

C,est une tres mauvaise idee... Mais il faut jouer bien le jeux, il ne faut absolument pas donner une image d'intolerance.

I think its a great idea, but maybe not in downtown

Stinky, maybe? Probably ... ça sent le pure-laine icitte.

L'Oratoire est précisément l'illustration d'une horreur architecturale et environementale. Pourtant, l'on fait avec.

Et la basilique Notre-Dame, n'a-t-elle pas écrasé le vieux Montréal contribuant éventuellement à la démolition de la vieille église, beaucoup mieux enracinée dans la trame urbaine d'alors? Et que dire de la ridicule cathédrale des zouaves, copiant à petite échelle le grand Saint-Pierre? D'autres exemples? Presque chaque église catho de Montréal, ma chaire.

Alors, avant de donner des leçons, on repassera, 1, 2, 3, la rose aux bois - et Larose aboye...

Une belle mosquée, cela manque à Montréal.

Pauvre Canada,
fais la vague
car j'ai le vague à l'âme

WOW ça commence bien ton affaire! si t'es pour commencer à insulter les forumers à ton premier commentaire, j'ai l'impression que tu ne restera pas très longtemps ici!

Comme que j'ai dis auparavant, je ne suis pas contre l'idée d'une grande Mosqué...je suis contre l'idée d'une grande Mosqué au Centre Ville. Il y a un beau grand terrain proche du Pont Jacques Cartier... Ils peuvent le construire là si ils veulent...pas au C-V...le C-V devrait être réservé pour les gratte Ciels!

Ce sont des opinions qui me font problème, pas les personnes, même si je n'apprécie pas tellement cet iman peu… orthodoxe. Mais l’humour est peut-être interdit sur ce forum, d’où la menace reçue. Le bâton précède ici la carotte.

Un centre-ville ne peut pas contenir que des gratte-ciels, c'est l'évidence même.

L'histoire des villes démontre précisément que les centres-villes ont été occupés par des édifices collectifs à forte portée symbolique - tout particulièrement, le bâtiments liés au pouvoir politique et au pouvoir religieux. (Des exemples seront fournis jusqu’à plus soif.)

Si, comme cela est affirmé, «le C-V devrait être réservé pour les gratte Ciels», condamnons à posteriori tous les non-gratte-ciels qui y sont érigés, démolissons-les et surtout, interdisons toute nouvelle construction qui ne soit pas un gratte-ciel.

By Jove (Jupiter), pourquoi un temple musulman pose-t-il autant problème?

J'oubliais, à Outremont, d'aucuns s'opposent à l'établissement de synagogues dans les secteurs résidentiels. Ne devrait pas regrouper sous le Pont du Havre synagogues, mosquées et tutti quanti non-chrétins? Avec en prime, le siège de Norbourg.

Comme disait le Kardinal : «Montréal, oh mon centre-ville, comme tu t'es fait beau pour accueillir ton prince.» .. (qui y avait aménagé un «palais cardinalice» (sikh) qui n’était pas, oh horreur, un gratte-ciel). – palais cardinalice dont je fournirai l’adresse contre pot-de-vin.

Mes frères en l’Église de la rectitude judéo-chrétienne, plutôt chrétine sans judéo : Recueillons-nous.

"Mais l’humour est peut-être interdit sur ce forum, d’où la menace reçue. Le bâton précède ici la carotte."

Dans ce cas, tu devrais essayer de rajouter des emoticons(genre un p'tit clin d'oeil) ça va faciliter les choses!

"Si, comme cela est affirmé, «le C-V devrait être réservé pour les gratte Ciels», condamnons à posteriori tous les non-gratte-ciels qui y sont érigés, démolissons-les et surtout, interdisons toute nouvelle construction qui ne soit pas un gratte-ciel."

Bon, il ne faut pas partir en panique... Tout ce que je dis c'est que les terrains en ville, il en reste de moins en moins, on devrait essayer de les garder pour de gros projets...ça ne veut pas dire que sur des petits terrains on ne devrait pas autoriser la contruction de projets "low-rise" ou "mid-rise".

Comme que j'ai dis plus tôt...je ne suis pas contre l'idée d'une mosqué...mais je suis contre tout édifice religieux!

^^
man you are having a rough ride here - first by federalist/Quebec-basher zealots and now by some Muslim who accuses u of being racist ;)

well, hopefully habs will win in Buffalo tonight. you need a drink :)

Don't the developers want the city to foot a least some of the bill?

L'Oratoire est précisément l'illustration d'une horreur architecturale et environementale. Pourtant, l'on fait avec.


Une belle mosquée, cela manque à Montréal.




L'Oratoire St-Joseph est la plus belle construction qu'il y a à Montréal.

Quant à une nouvelle grande Mosquée au Centre-Ville, Non merci.

Downtown, no, we must leave room for future projects. Although many other places are suitable, like the location of a destroyed Olympic Stadium, or maybe even in a revamped Peel Bassin if people vote against the casino.

I think its a great idea, but maybe not in downtown



Mr. Ashoq,

I will try writing in English, so please forgive any mistrakes.

It is somehow difficult to react to your quickie position, trying to grasp the short thing you are offering. I respectfully think it should be bigger, and more fleshed out. In any event, your short statement presents 2 positions: 1) a mosque is Montreal is great 2) but it should not MAYBE be located downtown.

But why not downtown? There are many religious buildings downtown cohabitating with skyscrapers and other kinds of buildings. In downtown Montreal, there his a large mixity of buildings and practices, and that characteristic is quite positive. As you certainly know, there are people living there; and there are activities around the clock, and all days of the week contrary to some US city centers. This aspect is very dynamic and it represents a major difference - even with downtown Toronto and other West Canadian cities where, during evenings and week-ends, there was/are almost nobody walking in the streets but homeless and poor people and almost-lost tourists. (I should add that the situation might have changed but it was certainly the case some time ago; furthermore, by no way I want to imply that poor people have not their place in downtown, but they should not be left alone/segregated.)

Now, what is the use of the center of a city? Historically, it has been the location of major political, economical, cultural, religious activities of the communities living in it or around it. Montreal is of no exception to this trend. On the religious side, Catholics, then Protestants, later Jews have occupied places in the heart of the then Metropolis.

But the very fabric of Montreal is now changing. People of Muslim faith are now living with us in increasing numbers. If they are really welcomed, if we truly accept them as equal citizens, they have the same right as other denominations to exercise their faith in the very nucleus of Montreal.

For instance, if I want to hear Handel’s Oratorio in the forthcoming weeks, I will probably have the choice of going to a protestant temple or a catholic church in the center of my city, of our city. First, it is practical because public transportation is easier there. But, more important, I will feel that I am a part of this city and its society, and, in my way to the event, I will meet other people of my/our city, attending other activities.

If some Muslims want to build a private religious building in the center of Montreal, it is their fundamental right, as long as they respect the urban collective rules imposed to every body. To oppose their project equals to refuse to recognize their right to live with us - including with their differences in the very centre of our/their city.

So, Mr. Ashoq, I commend you for your positive attitude towards the project. Still, I would appreciate knowing if you would accept that a mosque be built in the center of our city?

Sükran

P.S. : By the way, I am a convicted atheist.

Mr. Ashoq,

People of Muslim faith are now living with us in increasing numbers. If they are really welcomed, if we truly accept them as equal citizens, they have the same right as other denominations to exercise their faith in the very nucleus of Montreal.
.

You are saying that we should accept them as equal citizens...

My question is:
Will women and non-muslim people be allowed to enter in that building?
(If we say equal, it's equal. Same rights for everyone, no discrimination)

There's no 200k muslims in Montreal, thats pure bullshit.

A medieval mosque in downtown Montreal? no thanks, absolutely worst place to build it.

It should be near a residential area like for example next to the Jacques Cartier bridge which has lots room and some more for more residential developpement.

The imam wants the city to GIVE the land or else threaten to call us muslimphobic.

and edalens you reek of shit, talking about the Basilic and other cathedrals in such a way, only to defend the mosque then you tell us you're atheist... oh well buddy, I don't believe you.

edalens:

Cathedrals were build when Mtl population was highly religious. Different times, different needs. Would city now give prime real estate to the Catholic church? Doubt it, so why should it give it to Muslims? Canada is a secular country, if a religious group wants land, they should raise money and buy it. And not expect politicans to simply give it to them.

I think the whole idea of downtown mosque is to show the muslim character of the city (which is a overstatement since there are more Muslims in Detroit, NY or even Toronto than Mtl). There is politics involved and religion as usual is the hostage.

Large mosque - yes but in St. Laurent where there is a large Muslim population present. Not in downtown.

if they want their mosque in downtown, how about they buy the land and do it...

edalens,

I really appreciate your feedback. You have an interesting point of view. It is also a view that reminds me that it is important to maintain the soul of our city. I welcome well designed and envionmentally friendsly additions in construction to our wonderful city. After reading your submission I have decided you might be right. It would be great to have a mosque downtown....in the heart of our diverse cultural fabric.

I am happy to see discussion on this topic. There is no right or wrong view here. We are merely helping each other understand how we feel as individuals in terms of the consideration for a mosque downtown. Please keep your input respectful, sensitive and positive on this subject.

You are saying that we should accept them as equal citizens...

My question is:
Will women and non-muslim people be allowed to enter in that building?
(If we say equal, it's equal. Same rights for everyone, no discrimination)

Mr TOCSO,

About the same rights, I think there are limitations of access for women in Mosques. But I do not know if they are completely forbidden entering any part of the mosque. I suppose somebody, on this forum, would know.

As for non-Muslims, I experienced that they may enter many Mosques. I have entered mosques in Africa, in Egypt, in Bulgaria without any problems (as long as I would take my shoes off). Most of the time, I was alone. But I do remember feeling looked at in a small mosque in a village in the other side of the Nile River, in front of Louksor. I was not feeling safe.

But speaking about equal rights in religion, I do know that equal rights are not recognized for women in Catholicism and Judaism where women have inferior status. As a matter of fact, a large part of Christianity is still denying equal rights to women: Catholicism, the Orthodox Church and many Protestant denominations. My knowledge of Judaism is more limited but I witnessed recently that women have limited access in Synagogues; and it seems that in many of them, women are not allowed to lead services or read the Torah.

Now, I need to understand your position better. I presume that you are in favour of equal rights for women. So, will you refuse to consider as «equal citizens» all those beleivers of religions that donot recognize equality forwomen: Catholics, Orthodoxs, some Protestant denominations, traditional Jews and, of course, all Muslims????!!! I am afraid that you might be lonesome and have difficulty finding citizens of your quality if not of your equality…

Sir, I suggest, that we make the distinction between civic/legal citizenship and personal approval of individual or group beliefs. In acting with others, all Canadians have to respect the equality rights of the Canadian Charter. But this Charter recognizes freedom of religion and does not apply to religious beliefs as long as they do not interfere with legal obligations.

If we were to adopt your criteria for acceptation/rejection of others as equal citizens, we might enter in a kind of Ayatollah society. I prefer an open society.

Salamalécum, Mister T. Nid-de-poule

edalens, you're all over the place with your post man, you're off-topic.

You are saying that we should accept them as equal citizens...

My question is:
Will women and non-muslim people be allowed to enter in that building?
(If we say equal, it's equal. Same rights for everyone, no discrimination) Non-muslims are allowed to enter mosque by observing proper etiquette (standard requirement for any place of worship).

Since when women are not allowed to enter mosque??

L'Oratoire St-Joseph est la plus belle construction qu'il y a à Montréal.
Quant à une nouvelle grande Mosquée au Centre-Ville, Non merci.


Estimado Señor Tosco,

Suis étonné par votre intérêt pour l’«Oratoire» - dont l’appellation est déjà une aberration.

1) Sur le plan environnemental d’abord, l’érection de cette énorme protubérance a écrasé l’un des deux sommets de la montagne et il a fait disparaître un paysage champêtre comprenant un boisé naturel.

2) Quant à la dimension architecturale, avez-vous remarqué que la silhouette de l’Oratoire représente la forme inversée d’un «nid de poule» - ce qui correspond à... votre surnom ?!*+# Cette immense protubérance inversée du nid de poule constitue peut-être une punition adressée aux administrateurs montréalais ou un avertissement aux touristes du mal qui attend quiconque s’aventurera dans la ville.

3) Qui plus est, le dôme extérieur est en fait un faux dôme clinquant, une sorte de housse ou gousse, voire capote architecturale qui camoufle en fait un dôme intérieur moins prétentieux.

4) Le versant nord du Mont-Royal est affecté par un phallus (la tour de l’Université de Montréal) et un mamelon gonflé et siliconé (le dôme de l’«Oratoire»). Ces deux méga-projets ont compromis pour longtemps la physionomie nord de la montagne. Décidément, toute l’histoire de ce peuple gagnerait à être soumise à un examen freudien.

5) Quant à votre fixation sur l’Oratoire, à défaut d’une sérieuse psychanalyse, je vous propose une utilisation intensive et répétée d’Huile-de-Saint-Joseph que vous pourrez vous procurer à fort prix chez les marchands du temple de l’édifice – à moins que ce ne soit déjà fait.

Si les remèdes proposés ne fonctionnent pas, vous pourriez aller faire des ablutions à la Mosquée Al Qods de Montréal et ce, en attendant la construction de la nouvelle grande mosquée du centre-ville, dont la fréquentation pourrait améliorer votre vision et votre sens de l’urbanisme et de la beauté.

Moins sérieusement, il faut se réjouir que le saccage additionnel projeté par les dirigeants de l’Oratoire ait été freiné par les nouvelles règles d’urbanisme de Montréal. Et l’on imagine fort bien que la mosquée projetée au centre-ville sera soumise à un processus analogue.

Tout à vous, Adiós

PS : Tout mécréant que je suis, dans le cadre de la célébration des 100 ans de l’oratoire, j’ai exposé, en juin dernier, des oeuvres à l’Oratoire (sikh) qui ont été vendues ! Je serais bien aise si c’était vous qui aviez acheté au moins une.

Mr TOCSO,
As for non-Muslims, I experienced that they may enter many Mosques. I have entered mosques in Africa, in Egypt, in Bulgaria without any problems (as long as I would take my shoes off). Most of the time, I was alone. But I do remember feeling looked at in a small mosque in a village in the other side of the Nile River, in front of Louksor. I was not feeling safe.


Last month, I went by car to visit Morocco with two friends. In Almería we took a boat and travelled to Melilla. From there, we travelled to Fès, Mecknes, Tanger, Tetouan, and finally arrived to Ceuta where we took another boat to Algeciras.
In the incroyable city of Fès Médina, we entered in the mosque (by the way a beautiful building) and inside a man asked us if we were muslims. We said no. They told us we weren't allowed to enter there, we had to put back our shoes and leave.

Quant à la dimension architecturale, avez-vous remarqué que la silhouette de l’Oratoire représente la forme inversée d’un «nid de poule» - ce qui correspond à... votre surnom ?!*+# Cette immense protubérance inversée du nid de poule constitue peut-être une punition adressée aux administrateurs montréalais ou un avertissement aux touristes du mal qui attend quiconque s’aventurera dans la ville.
.


Ha, ha, ha,

Je n'avais jamais rit autant, votre humeur me tue.
Même pas le Père-Noël est si drôle, ha, ha, ha

if they want their mosque in downtown, how about they buy the land and do it...

I totally agree with you.

(Let the goverment build a Baseball stadium downtown first, where everybody is allowed enter, women included.)

...In the incroyable city of Fès Médina, we entered in the mosque (by the way a beautiful building) and inside a man asked us if we were muslims. We said no. They told us we weren't allowed to enter there, we had to put back our shoes and leave. That's really unfortunate. Mosques are supposed to be open to all.

That's really unfortunate. Mosques are supposed to be open to all.

I was unfortunate then.

Dear colleagues,

I cogitated about our discussion on the subject of the Mosque in downtown Montreal. I feel some aspects of the exchanges are depressing. It seems that the fundamental issue is not as much architectural but as social. Before going further, I should add that I do not want to simplify others' positions and it is not easy to react properly and accordingly to positions – especially when they have been presented very shortly. Symbolism seems to be a key factor here. Maybe, the basic problem is less the shape of a mosque but rather its very presence in downtown Montreal.

Some arguments are against the presence of a Mosque downtown. Some would admit mosque(s) only in the periphery: around Jacques-Cartier bridge or in suburbs where Muslims are numerous. Such a position may well increase actual isolation process if not ghettoization of minority beliefs and of minority individuals. Precisely, the latest upset in France provides us the example of people linked to recent (and not so recent) immigration reacting to a complex and systemic process of marginalization.

There seems to be attitudes of rejection of others : those that we do not know, those that we do not understand, those that seem different from us, etc. THEY do not have the same ideas or values as US, etc. So, THEY should leave or, at least, stay at distance from US.

I wonder how come we are so intolerant with those who we think are different of «us», whereas some of «their» stances are alike our parents’ or grand-parents’ standpoints? Why do we admit historical changes for us, while refusing to allow them the time to «evolve»? Furthermore, why others could not have different positions as long as they accept the fundamental rules of our society?

The erection of collective buildings raises issues not only architectural, urban and aesthetic, but also fundamental ethic issues linked to citizenship, to recognition of others, to the way we are defining our community.

When we oppose the construction of any Mosque in the city-center of Montreal, are we not ignoring diversity, refusing diversity, ignoring the others?
.

^^ I think you are oversimplifying things a tad too much. No one said that Muslims should not have a large mosque. No one is discriminating against them.

What ticked off some people is that the iman openly said that the government should pay for the land and allow a downtown location. This kind of freebee from secular government to please a religious group is out of question. Suggesting that put Mtl officials in uncomfortable position where they would be accused of racism from Muslims and caving in to demands of one group by the rest of the society. And that was playing politics with religion in already tense times. That iman is a fool and I am glad Canada wants to extradite him back to Tunesia for visa violations.

You mention symbolism and you made a valid point. I for one differentiate between old churches build many years ago when almost all French Canadiens were deeply catholic and new places of worship. As you have noticed there a no plans for any religious buildings to be placed in downtown core, why should one minority get that privilege?

^^
What ticked off some people is that the iman openly said that the government should pay for the land and allow a downtown location. This kind of freebee from secular government to please a religious group is out of question.

I agree with you. The majority of citizens want hospitals, schools, etc. being built with their taxes.

The construction of religious buildings is not the priority of the big majority of montrealers.

Dear Marek Bielski and dear Cosco,

I appreciate the eventual acceptance to a Mosque that could be built in downtown Montreal.

Of course, if it was to be built, in NO way should government and public spending be given to such a project. Furthermore, such a project should be developed according to the rules of the Montreal's new Urban Master Plan. But if any religious group and/or cultural denomination want to build a structure downtown, it is there right as long as they follow the urban rules that have to be followed by everybody.

We are a secular society. Personally, I have been reluctant to the fact hat the Federal and Provincial Governments have been putting millions of dollars in the renovation of older churches in Montreal. Even the existence of the Québec Religious Heritage Foundation, largely subsidized with State budget, is problematic for me.

On the overall, I feel that our exchange is improving, and that there is a better understanding of the fundamental and complex issues at stake. More important, I am thinking of recent immigrants who arrive here coming from authoritarian societies. The initial shock with our culture is often brutal; they need openness from our part and not rejection. Dialogue is but the only path to mutual understanding.

Dear brothers (and I hope, Sisters), as we say in French : Que Dieu nous blesse!
.

You mention symbolism and you made a valid point. I for one differentiate between old churches build many years ago when almost all French Canadiens were deeply catholic and new places of worship. As you have noticed there a no plans for any religious buildings to be placed in downtown core, why should one minority get that privilege?

:cheers1: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :nocrook:

We are a secular society. Personally, I have been reluctant to the fact hat the Federal and Provincial Governments have been putting millions of dollars in the renovation of older churches in Montreal. Even the existence of the Québec Religious Heritage Foundation, largely subsidized with State budget, is problematic for me.

On the overall, I feel that our exchange is improving, and that there is a better understanding of the fundamental and complex issues at stake. More important, I am thinking of recent immigrants who arrive here coming from authoritarian societies. The initial shock with our culture is often brutal; they need openness from our part and not rejection. Dialogue is but the only path to mutual understanding.

Dear brothers (and I hope, Sisters), as we say in French : Que Dieu nous blesse!
.

I have no problem that taxpayers money goes into preserving church. Whether you are a believer or atheist the architecture of some of the churches in Quebec are spectacular and therefore worth preserving. A good option would be to give a renovated church to the Muslim community instead of converting them to condos like they have done in St.Leonard. That should satisfy everybody unless there is some other issue that has not been raised ...

The problem isn't that there aren'T enough Mosques in Montreal. If i'm not mistaken, there are 49 mosques in this city! FOr 200,000 people, i think that's a good number!

The problem isn't that there aren'T enough Mosques in Montreal. If i'm not mistaken, there are 49 mosques in this city! FOr 200,000 people, i think that's a good number!

I agree with you.

I can't understand why they wan´t the goverment to build another one (having 49 already), and why it absolutely has to be built in downtown.

Originally Posted by habsfan
The problem isn't that there aren'T enough Mosques in Montreal. If i'm not mistaken, there are 49 mosques in this city! FOr 200,000 people, i think that's a good number!

Originally Posted by Tosco
I agree with you.

I can't understand why they wan´t the goverment to build another one (having 49 already), and why it absolutely has to be built in downtown.

First, let us distinguish the issues raised here.

1. building of (another) Mosque in Montréal
2. building of a Mosque downtown
3. governmental support to the construction a religious building.

Personally:

1. I reject any form of governmental support to the erection of a religious structure.
2. If some Muslims want to build any mosque, it is their fundamental right to do it as long as they comply to the civic regulations applying to any construction project.
3. More specifically, if a Mosque is to be built downtown Montréal, the construction project should in a way be more carefully planned and should comply entirely with the regulations and processes – and especially those included in the Montreal Master Plan (http://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/plan-urbanisme/en/).

Having said that, I do believe there are to many MacDonalds in our city, to many Costcos, too many, to many Wal-Marts, etc. There is even a Jehovah’s Witness temple on my own street, so the door bell is but too often ringing. But I have to live with it.

We live in a free society. Luckily, Mr. Roncarelli, witness of Jehovah, won over Maurice Duplessis’s government in the 1950s. And luckily in Spain now, on the blooded soil of gay Frederico Garcia Lorca, the fascist Franco regime is but a reality of the past.

TOSCO, let us sing together:

Pero igual que combatimos
Rumba rumba rumba la
Prometemos resistir
Ay Carmela, ay Carmela

Whatever we fight against
Rumba rumba rumba la
We promess to resist
Ay Carmela, ay Carmela

Quant à votre fixation sur l’Oratoire, à défaut d’une sérieuse psychanalyse, je vous propose une utilisation intensive et répétée d’Huile-de-Saint-Joseph que vous pourrez vous procurer à fort prix chez les marchands du temple de l’édifice – à moins que ce ne soit déjà fait.

Si les remèdes proposés ne fonctionnent pas, vous pourriez aller faire des ablutions à la Mosquée Al Qods de Montréal et ce, en attendant la construction de la nouvelle grande mosquée du centre-ville, dont la fréquentation pourrait améliorer votre vision et votre sens de l’urbanisme et de la beauté.
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You are right. We (you) live in a free society. You can write whatever you want. Even stupid things like theseones above.

. And luckily in Spain now, on the blooded soil of gay Frederico Garcia Lorca, the fascist Franco regime is but a reality of the past.


I don't know what you are trying to say with this. Maybe you just want to show us how much intelectual you are...
I also don't understand what this has to do with the topic we are debating: "Une mosquée au centre-ville" ???

Even if Im not spanish (I was born and raised in Montreal), as the big majority of europeans I'm proud of Queen Isabel (1451-1504).

I don't know what you are trying to say with this. Maybe you just want to show us how much intelectual you are...
I also don't understand what this has to do with the topic we are debating: "Une mosquée au centre-ville" ???

Even if Im not spanish (I was born and raised in Montreal), as the big majority of europeans I'm proud of Queen Isabel (1451-1504).


(...) We live in a free society. Luckily, Mr. Roncarelli, witness of Jehovah, won over Maurice Duplessis’s government in the 1950s. And luckily in Spain now, on the blooded soil of gay Frederico Garcia Lorca, the fascist Franco regime is but a reality of the past.

Muy estimado Señor Toco & Nid-de-poule & Bache,

I am surprised and disappointed by your reply to a part of my mail. Just put back the sentence in the paragraph where it was written and you will or should understand the meaning.

I was just trying to convey that we are lucky to «live in a free society»; adding 2 (relatively recent) historical examples of societies where liberty of speech was not always tolerated by the State: Québec, especially under the premier Maurice Duplessis and Spain under Francisco Franco. And I was giving 2 specific examples of freedom of speech denied in those 2 cases: the overturn by Canadian Supreme Court on the limitation of speech to Mr. Roncarelli and the infamous slaughter of Frederico Garcia Lorca.

I was mentioning those 2 facts not to be pretentious or «intellectual». I am not an intellectual. The tragic end of Lorca is known by millions of people all over the world. He is probably the most known victim of the Franco Regime. And as for Roncarelli, we were reminded of this affair a few days ago in the Globe & Mail in an article on the very sad Arar case. I hope you will not accuse me of being «intellectual» cause I read the Globe & Mail or speak of Maher Arar’s deportation.

Finally, as for the link of those events with the debate on the Mosque, I was precisely trying to assert how important it is to admit the fundamental freedom of speech and religion of our Muslims Montréal compatriots. Recognition of their freedom of speech and religion implies the fact that they have the right to build a Mosque anywhere in Montréal as long as they comply with the public and legal regulations.

(In 1946, the Quebec Premier ordered the arrest of Jehovah's Witnesses who were distributing leaflets criticizing the Catholic Church… Do you still do not see any link here?)



Erik de Montréal

P.S.: I know that you are not Spanish, that you are an immigrant. You and I met some time ago in Montréal (in NDG I think, though it could also has been at the entrance of the ugly, ostentatious, pompous and showy Oratoire Saint-Joseph. I was protesting in front of it with a pancarte in my hands. In any event, I am sure that Spanish people are not too xenophobic towards you.

As for the song « Ay Carmela, ay Carmela», it was a kind of anti-fascist anthem that I sang when I was a kid in our family slum in Pointe-Saint-Charles. I almost got arrested trying to sing it later in Spain in the 1970s. (More recently, with colleagues from Spain and other countries, we sang l’Internationale, in the Reception room of The Palau de la Generalitat in Barcelona. I must admit that we drank maybe to much wine, but in any event, nobody thought of arresting us though our singing did not receive a lot of approval from the dignitaries and the diplomats attending the formal reception.)

Finally, finally, dear Tosco & Nest-of-hen, I am sure that all other members of this site are joining me in wishing you, for December 22 : Bon anniversaire, Happy Birthday, Cumpleaños felices!!!

Cum on, lets us sign together to our friend Tosco & Nest-of-hen & Anide de gallina:




Mon cher Tosco,
C’est à ton tour
De te laisser parler d’amour

Mon cher Tosco, etc.

we sang l’Internationale, in the Reception room of The Palau de la Generalitat in Barcelona.



You are a Comunist?

And then you say we are lucky to "live in a free society", where there's "liberty of speech"? Oh yeah, Comunism is exactly that, freedom of speech!

Brenche-toi pis lâche-pas la patate.

You are a Comunist?

And then you say we are lucky to "live in a free society", where there's "liberty of speech"? Oh yeah, Comunism is exactly that, freedom of speech!

Brenche-toi pis lâche-pas la patate.

Tosco, unfortunately, the level of your argumentation seems alike… the contrary of a… skyscraper. You are bringing us under the level of potatoes when they are in the soil.

I can sing «L’internationale» without being a communist. I have witnessed what the so called «communists» regimes have done to their people and societies in many countries; and I found it revolting and nauseating. As a matter of fact, the socialist anthem «L'internationale» was looted by those so called communists regimes that used it.

I hope you are following my ... «intellectual» ideas.

If I may add, I could sing to you «Love me tender», without truly wishing you would.

Are you following my last... «intellectual» idea?

Dear Tosco-nid-de-poupoule: I still like you nonetheless.

... And hold to your «patate», and keep it warm.

Take care, Te quiero.