Anybody catch November 22nd's Pardon the Interruption show on EPSN?. The Florida Marlins are threatening to move. When asked where they could move, Tony Kornheiser (co-host) suggested Indianapolis. I know it's a pipe dream, but that'd be something else if Indy could land a baseball team. I also saw a post on this sight stating that the Marlins are moving in 2008. ALSO, anybody hear any updates on One Market Square's progress. I've been searching all over for any bit of info. GO COLTS!

I find it AWESOME that someone living in Gary identifies themselves as a Colts Fan! That alone makes you one of my favorite persons!

With Indy's great spoke-system of railroads, and most of it's suburbs' original (and usually historic) business districts being founded near a rail corridor, a transit system, to me, seems like it has laid itself out. The crucial factor, as always, is funding and support. A few possible routes have already been metioned in this thread. The most obvious is the old Nickel Plate line to Noblesville, which is already being considered. The next most important is the old Pennsy line to the airport. The line to Zionsville is intact to 465 and would only have to be extended a few miles to reach Zionsville, and possibly further to Lebanon. The current L&I route runs thru the south side, paralleling the US31 corridor, passing thru the University of Indianapolis, Greenwood, Whiteland and Franklin (Franklin College). I love what cwilson is doing with Cumberland. Being another person who hates sprawl, and historic building being torn down, this initiative will set a standard for suburban Indy development for the future. I noticed on the map above that the old Pennsy corridor, which is being turned into a trail, is very close to the Cumberland business district. Again, this looks like another possible route, maybe extending all the way to Greenfield. This bring me to my question, being unfamiliar with the east side of Indy, how far does the old Pennsy line extend eastward. A few years ago, it looked like the rail stopped around the 465 overpass. At the time, I believe Conrail was using the track for switching of local industries. Does anybody know where this line cuts off? Does this line still runs through Irvington? GO COLTS!

I was born and raised in "Da Region", but since I was about 12-13, I discover Indianapolis. I've always been a proud Hoosier, which is tough living in Chicagoland. I am a rabid Colts and Pacers fan, and plan on moving to Indy as soon as I'm finished with school. To me, it's amazing what this city has transformed itself into.

Lol..."Da region" I have relatives form up there. By the way welcome to SSC.

Im soo excited I'm gonna be heading down to Indy tomorrow for a game. I tell you what...I never get to visit much but when I do I soak up as much of it as possible. I get tired of the little city I live in. (Its not Ft. Wayne actually but its real close to it) lol

I have a quick question... I don't really know the rough areas of Indy to well but when I was in Indy I was goin down Binford (i think thats what it was). Along this road I saw alot of abandonment and I was wondering is that a reall shitty area or what?

btw...I'm pissed the Pacers lost...but on the other hand I got to see the memorial lit up.

I have a quick question... I don't really know the rough areas of Indy to well but when I was in Indy I was goin down Binford (i think thats what it was). Along this road I saw alot of abandonment and I was wondering is that a reall shitty area or what?

btw...I'm pissed the Pacers lost...but on the other hand I got to see the memorial lit up.

Yes, there are some bad areas on Binford/Fall Creek, not too far from the State Fair Grounds on 38th Street. There are some gorgeous homes along Fall Creek, and many of those have been taken care of pretty well--but the neighborhood behind that street is pretty rough. There are worse areas of the city, but that one is not too great. In my opinion, though, the housing stock there is much better than in other rough areas, so hopefully that area will see a rebirth (although I think it'll be awhile, as it's not too close to downtown).

With Indy's great spoke-system of railroads, and most of it's suburbs' original (and usually historic) business districts being founded near a rail corridor, a transit system, to me, seems like it has laid itself out. The crucial factor, as always, is funding and support. A few possible routes have already been metioned in this thread. The most obvious is the old Nickel Plate line to Noblesville, which is already being considered. The next most important is the old Pennsy line to the airport. The line to Zionsville is intact to 465 and would only have to be extended a few miles to reach Zionsville, and possibly further to Lebanon. The current L&I route runs thru the south side, paralleling the US31 corridor, passing thru the University of Indianapolis, Greenwood, Whiteland and Franklin (Franklin College). I love what cwilson is doing with Cumberland. Being another person who hates sprawl, and historic building being torn down, this initiative will set a standard for suburban Indy development for the future. I noticed on the map above that the old Pennsy corridor, which is being turned into a trail, is very close to the Cumberland business district. Again, this looks like another possible route, maybe extending all the way to Greenfield. This bring me to my question, being unfamiliar with the east side of Indy, how far does the old Pennsy line extend eastward. A few years ago, it looked like the rail stopped around the 465 overpass. At the time, I believe Conrail was using the track for switching of local industries. Does anybody know where this line cuts off? Does this line still runs through Irvington? GO COLTS!

colts0315, I'd say you’re making perfect sense. Most of the rail lines that radiate out from downtown are underutilized and/or abandoned. It makes perfect sense to use these right-of-ways as transit corridors. In addition, many of the underutilized/abandoned lines correspond to corridors that the Directions Study designated as areas that should be served by transit. This is not the case, however, for every corridor. Most light, transit technologies are not allowed by law to occupy the same rail, at the same time as heavy, freight or passenger equipment. As a result, existing rail traffic would need to be diverted or timed so that it did not occupy the same track at the same time. Luckily, many of the tracks in Indianapolis are only used once or twice a day, if at all. In addition, Indianapolis has a belt line that bypasses downtown that could be used to divert freight traffic around downtown. Also, many of the lines are operated by small, short-line operators that could probably be bought out, or convinced to run their trains at a time separation (Say 4:00 or 5:00AM).

There are a number of threats to this scenario, however.

First, there will always be a group of vocal property owners that object to a corridor near their property being used for transit. There is a group in Indianapolis that objects to trains being placed on the Nickel Plate.

Second, the city has in some cases has allowed parts of rail right-of-ways to be vacated and/or sold. This was a concern recently when Eli Lilly and the Convention Center lobbied for the vacation of the much of downtown's rail right-of-ways.

Third, Corridors that would make excellent transit corridors could be turned into walking/bike trails. This has already happened with the Monon Trail to the north, and could soon happen with the Pennsy Trail to the East.

Anybody see the advertisements for the Colts-Steelers monday night game? Nice shot of the dome with the skyline in the background. This is just one of the reasons why keeping the Colts in Indy is so important to the city.

Anybody see the advertisements for the Colts-Steelers monday night game? Nice shot of the dome with the skyline in the background. This is just one of the reasons why keeping the Colts in Indy is so important to the city.

So true. It promotes the city and gets us out there. I mean cmon...what was Indy without its sports?

Don't get me wrong, I love the Colts and want them to stick around for a long time. I do, however, disagree with your assessment that Indianapolis was nothing before the Colts. We seem to be way too concerned with things that make us look like a "big league" city and forget to focus on the fundamentals. Our downtown is full of deteriorating sidewalks, ugly 1970's cobra-head light posts, inconsistent streetscaping and lousy transit. I would argue that our downtown has been scared by oversized development like the RCA Dome and the creation of super blocks. Sadly, we seem to be repeating our mistakes by creating new enormous super blocks, and spending outrageous sums of money for a structure that is not designed to stimulate its surroundings. It's not that I don't want the stadium downtown; I just want it to be sited on a reasonably sized site and designed to stimulate development at its perimeter. This should be a given.

If we want to be able to talk about more really cool high-rise developments, the city need to start focusing on the fundamentals of good urban planning and design, placemaking, and a solid transit system.

I have always thought of the University Park, Indiana War Memorial, 3 to 4-block park area as Indianapolis' mini Central Park. I'd love to see some taller buildings, perhaps condos and apartments being built on the perimeter of the parks. With the library renovation almost finished and the proximity to Massachusetts Ave., mid to high-rise residences would be perfect, especially on the east side of the parks, along Pennsylvania Street. If only they could relocate the federal offices and tear down that god-awful Federal Building and build some tall buildings.

Also, I had previously heard of the Knights of Pythias building and found an awesome picture of it. It used to be located where One Indiana Square is now located. It was a beautiful flatiron building. Hopefully I posted these pictures right:

http://images4.indianahistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/dc012&CISOPTR=1585&REC=15

Though a nice tall building was built, it breaks my heart they tore down this building AND vacated that block of Massachusetts Ave. I also found a picture of the gorgeous Marion County courthouse, located where the city-county building is. It makes me think of Philadelphia's City Hall, which is one of their biggest landmarks:

http://images4.indianahistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/P0130&CISOPTR=828&REC=9

http://images4.indianahistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/dc012&CISOPTR=5074&REC=3

Just imagine the character these buildings would have contributed to downtown Indy had they been preserved. Here's a nice pic of the skyline I found:

http://www.timvp.com/downtownindy03.jpg

Well one worked. Maybe these will work You can find neat photos on the indiana historical society website:

http://www.athsalumni.org/marioncocourthouse.jpg

http://www.helloindianapolis.com/indianapolis/images/Marion%20County%20Court%20House%201907.jpg

Knights of Pythias building:

http://www.helloindianapolis.com/indianapolis/images/Knights%20of%20Pythias%20Bldg2.jpg

http://www.helloindianapolis.com/indianapolis/images/Knights%20of%20Pythias%20Bldg1.jpg

Hopefully the building that might replace the zipper building will rival the beauty of the knights pythias building pictured above.

You are right, the buildings around the war memorial mall should have a similar scale as the continental building, the athletic club building, the chamber of commerce building, the blanchern, and a couple others. Store-front retail and 8 to 12 story, verticaly oreinted towers.

I would love to hear the architect of that federal building try to explain his design and find out if he still thinks its a positive contribution to the mall. I think its very ugly.

Yeah, the K of P was nice in its heyday.

As for the Colts, Indianapolis established its presence long before the Colts rolled in to town. Thats not to say that the economy hasnt been influenced by sports because it has. But i agree that there are things to be improved upon before we deal with stadiums and the like, such as our deteriorating urban core (excluding our excellent downtown).

http://energystar.gov/ia/business/labeled_buildings//images/1552.gif The architect of this building must have been higher than the heavens smokin some of that "potent noir" because it is the ugliest building in the city. On the other hand I feel the pyramids should have been built downtown, they would have accented the skyline
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/fa267/20th/pyramids01.jpg

From airport to hotel in seconds
4-star facility would be attached to new terminal's garage

By Theodore Kim
theodore.kim@indystar.com

Indianapolis International Airport is gearing up to solicit proposals for a four-star hotel that would be linked to its new midfield passenger terminal.
Officials envision a $45 million facility with about 250 rooms that would include amenities characteristic of an upscale hotel, such as an indoor pool and 12,000 square feet of meeting space.

Planners hope to choose an operator by early next year, perhaps as soon as February, said John Kish, director of the midfield project. Completion of the hotel would coincide with the $1.07 billion terminal project's opening in late 2008.
Should the facility gain AAA's coveted four-diamond rating, it would be only the fifth such hotel in the area. The others are the Canterbury Hotel, Marriott Indianapolis Downtown, Omni Severin Hotel and the Westin Indianapolis.
Another Downtown hotel slated for completion next year, the Conrad, is expected to be awarded at least a four-diamond rating, as well.
While the concept of an airport hotel is hardly novel, industry experts say a growing number of cities have sought to achieve new dimensions in luxury and convenience by incorporating swank rooms and suites directly into their terminal designs.
Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport, for instance, recently opened a lavish Westin hotel inside its new McNamara Terminal, complete with 404 rooms, 10 suites and 28 meeting rooms.
A 300-room Grand Hyatt hotel that opened in July at the Dallas-Fort Worth airport is equipped with a spa, ballroom and fine-dining restaurants. The 12-story Hyatt is part of the airport's new international terminal.
In contrast with Dallas and Detroit, the size of the proposed hotel here is relatively modest. With 250 rooms on four or five stories planned, the hotel would have less than half the guest space of the 573-room Downtown Westin.
But, like the new hotels in other cities, it is meant to offer unrivaled terminal access and would be attached to a planned $118 million parking garage. The garage, in turn, will be connected to the new 40-gate midfield terminal.
"We think it will offer very convenient access for the traveler," Kish said.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Colts and want them to stick around for a long time. I do, however, disagree with your assessment that Indianapolis was nothing before the Colts. We seem to be way too concerned with things that make us look like a "big league" city and forget to focus on the fundamentals. Our downtown is full of deteriorating sidewalks, ugly 1970's cobra-head light posts, inconsistent streetscaping and lousy transit. I would argue that our downtown has been scared by oversized development like the RCA Dome and the creation of super blocks. Sadly, we seem to be repeating our mistakes by creating new enormous super blocks, and spending outrageous sums of money for a structure that is not designed to stimulate its surroundings. It's not that I don't want the stadium downtown; I just want it to be sited on a reasonably sized site and designed to stimulate development at its perimeter. This should be a given.

If we want to be able to talk about more really cool high-rise developments, the city need to start focusing on the fundamentals of good urban planning and design, placemaking, and a solid transit system.

I didn't mean to sound as if Indy was a hole in the ground before the Colts...just meant the Colts sure gave it a boost. My post did sound like that though so I see where your coming from.

I think if you're going to go that route with sports, the 500 race ready put Indy on the map. The Colts coming to Indy has just been the icing on the cake for city leaders who have worked for over 3 decades to revitalize this city. Look how big sports have become, especially economically. Most Americans relate to sports, and I believe the NFL is the biggest professional league of the sports. Just watching ALL this coverage proves that the city leaders were ahead of the curve when using the sports strategy as a boost. I really can't remember a regular season game this HUGE! I love seeing all this coverage. Let's hope the Colts continued this historic season.

Ath least they're talking about it. A new 30 story plus across the street from the City County building will be nice... someday...

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051129/NEWS01/511290419

A measure urging the City-County Council to study the need for a new courts building went nowhere Monday when members of the council -- and the mayor -- questioned the proposal.
Mayor Bart Peterson fretted that the resolution before the Marion County Criminal Justice Planning Council went beyond mere study and committed the city to spend money to hire architects.


City-County Council President Steve Talley, a Democrat who is a member of the Planning Council, said he believed the matter required further study before going to legislators.
Another Planning Council member, City-County Council Minority Leader Philip Borst, a Republican, wondered aloud how the new center could be justified when the city is just "scraping by'' financially.
The planning panel's chairman, Marion Superior Court Judge Cale Bradford, postponed a vote on the resolution. The matter will be taken up again next month.
The proposal was made by the Justice Center Task Force, a group of attorneys from the Indiana and Marion County bar associations. The group argues the building that currently houses the criminal courts, the City-County Building, is cramped and outdated. The conditions, the group maintains, put residents -- including witnesses and crime victims -- in harm's way.
Each year, about 70,000 prisoners are taken under police supervision to areas in the building. This puts them in close proximity with the roughly half a million residents who enter the building for government business, says a task force report released Monday.
Costs for a new building could range from $79 million to $195 million, depending on whether other offices -- such as civil courts -- eventually are housed in the center.
The report lists possibilities for raising money, such as boosting court filing fees or using revenue from the county option income tax. The report also suggests there would be savings if agencies now renting space from private landlords could move into City-County Building offices emptied when criminal courts move out.
One potential site: property north of the Marion County Jail already owned by the city. The report says putting courts closer to the jail would make it easier to bring prisoners back and forth and increase security.
More security is long overdue, Bradford said.
He said that as a judge, he has sentenced defendants to jail while they sat just a few feet away from him.
"One of these days, something terrible might happen in this building," he said.
Thirty years ago, something did. In 1975, a defendant accused of fatally beating his father-in-law was shot to death in a Marion County courtroom.
This year, a defendant in an Atlanta criminal case fatally shot the judge, then continued his rampage before being caught.
In a presentation made during the Planning Council hearing Monday, former Indianapolis Bar Association President John Maley called the City-County Building situation "a disaster waiting to happen."


Call Star reporter Richard D. Walton at (317) 444-6289.


Copyright 2005 IndyStar.com. All rights reserved

I think if you're going to go that route with sports, the 500 race ready put Indy on the map. The Colts coming to Indy has just been the icing on the cake for city leaders who have worked for over 3 decades to revitalize this city. Look how big sports have become, especially economically. Most Americans relate to sports, and I believe the NFL is the biggest professional league of the sports. Just watching ALL this coverage proves that the city leaders were ahead of the curve when using the sports strategy as a boost. I really can't remember a regular season game this HUGE! I love seeing all this coverage. Let's hope the Colts continued this historic season.

So true...go Colts. :cheers:

http://images4.indianahistory.org/u?/dc012,4303

So true...go Colts. :cheers:
great game last night, u guys. i still haven't gotten over that colts 1st play from scrimmage.....lol. i bet the dome was ROCKIN'!!!!!!!!!! (literally)

it was so loud inside that the teflon roof vibrated and so did the press box windows...
as for a new city-county buiding im all for it...we need it and it could fill that gap on the east end of the skyline

As a former employee of the City who worked in the CCB, it is a disaster waiting to happen. My first week on the job, the building was "locked-down" due to some loon of a woman running off with a gun and getting loose in the building. Plus, it is distressing to ride an elevator with "orange-clad" men chained together.

http://images4.indianahistory.org/u?/dc012,4303
Here's the pic he was trying to post:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/465/getimageexe5xd.jpg

Very depressing, such a beautiful building torn down to make way for a plaza that sees little use.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3907/getimageex2e2fh.jpg

Ath least they're talking about it. A new 30 story plus across the street from the City County building will be nice... someday...

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051129/NEWS01/511290419

A measure urging the City-County Council to study the need for a new courts building went nowhere Monday when members of the council -- and the mayor -- questioned the proposal.
Mayor Bart Peterson fretted that the resolution before the Marion County Criminal Justice Planning Council went beyond mere study and committed the city to spend money to hire architects.


City-County Council President Steve Talley, a Democrat who is a member of the Planning Council, said he believed the matter required further study before going to legislators.
Another Planning Council member, City-County Council Minority Leader Philip Borst, a Republican, wondered aloud how the new center could be justified when the city is just "scraping by'' financially.
The planning panel's chairman, Marion Superior Court Judge Cale Bradford, postponed a vote on the resolution. The matter will be taken up again next month.
The proposal was made by the Justice Center Task Force, a group of attorneys from the Indiana and Marion County bar associations. The group argues the building that currently houses the criminal courts, the City-County Building, is cramped and outdated. The conditions, the group maintains, put residents -- including witnesses and crime victims -- in harm's way.
Each year, about 70,000 prisoners are taken under police supervision to areas in the building. This puts them in close proximity with the roughly half a million residents who enter the building for government business, says a task force report released Monday.
Costs for a new building could range from $79 million to $195 million, depending on whether other offices -- such as civil courts -- eventually are housed in the center.
The report lists possibilities for raising money, such as boosting court filing fees or using revenue from the county option income tax. The report also suggests there would be savings if agencies now renting space from private landlords could move into City-County Building offices emptied when criminal courts move out.
One potential site: property north of the Marion County Jail already owned by the city. The report says putting courts closer to the jail would make it easier to bring prisoners back and forth and increase security.
More security is long overdue, Bradford said.
He said that as a judge, he has sentenced defendants to jail while they sat just a few feet away from him.
"One of these days, something terrible might happen in this building," he said.
Thirty years ago, something did. In 1975, a defendant accused of fatally beating his father-in-law was shot to death in a Marion County courtroom.
This year, a defendant in an Atlanta criminal case fatally shot the judge, then continued his rampage before being caught.
In a presentation made during the Planning Council hearing Monday, former Indianapolis Bar Association President John Maley called the City-County Building situation "a disaster waiting to happen."


Call Star reporter Richard D. Walton at (317) 444-6289.


Copyright 2005 IndyStar.com. All rights reserved

Wow yeah htat would be awesome for the city. The thing that stuck out to me was 30 plus stories. lol :)

I cannot believe your city would tear down a building like that... it must've been in incredibly bad shape.

Thanks Naptown...How do you post with those pictures off the historical site? MilwaukeeMark - I like the old courthouse building better than the statehouse. Naptown posted the picture I wanted to put up with the mediocre city-county building in the background and to show that it has been in recent history that building was torn down (circa 1962). I think it was just a case of the need for more room for government offices and like a lot of the buildings before the historic preservation trend, they just tore it down. On a related note, I used to live in Crown Point, which is renowned for their courthouse (John Dillinger ring a bell?). Well, my great uncle fought to keep the county from bulldozing the building in the 1970's. They built a new complex (just as ugly as the city county building), and were going to turn the courthouse into a parking lot! Now, anyone who has visited Crown Point knows that the focal point of the whole city revolves around that courthouse and its history. I can't, for the life of me, understand what people that want to tear down beautiful old buildings are thinking!!!

Also, Naptown is right, that plaza in front of the CCB sees little use. There was really no need to tear down the old courthouse because the CCD is situated on the north half of the block. What a shame.

Wow yeah htat would be awesome for the city. The thing that stuck out to me was 30 plus stories. lol :)
I've only heard 30+ stories in articles I've read in past years. This is something that's been put off for a long time now. It only makes sense that they'll build tall there... CCB is about half what is needed as is.. If theyr'e forward thinking, they'll build 40-60 stories.

http://energystar.gov/ia/business/labeled_buildings//images/1552.gif The architect of this building must have been higher than the heavens smokin some of that "potent noir" because it is the ugliest building in the city. [/IMG]

I read an interview with the architect years ago. Apparently he was trying to do a sort of upside down counter point to the tapering levels of the war memorial. It originally was supposed to be 13 stories, in which case, it may have been more attractive.

Upscale care's cost
Clarian's posh, new hospital in Carmel is the latest entry in a race for suburban dollars that is raising concern about inner-city options

At first glance, the new Clarian North Medical Center in Carmel seems like a hospital hidden within a grand hotel.
Patients entering the 120-foot atrium pass by an espresso bar on their way to the examination room. A day spa is coming soon, where pampered patients can get a footbath and tea. And for those staying overnight, room service can be ordered through bedside touch-screen computers.

It's a far cry from the institutional feel that permeates many older hospitals, which have lower ceilings, narrower halls, older tiles -- and perhaps most important to patients, double-occupancy rooms.
But it also underscores a growing reality of health care in the Indianapolis area: If you live in a wealthier neighborhood, you're likely to be close to a hospital with five-star atmosphere.
If you don't, you'll likely receive care in more modest surroundings.
Indianapolis' four big hospital systems -- Clarian Health Partners, St. Vincent Heath, Community Health Network and St. Francis Hospital and Health Centers -- are following the money into the suburbs, contributing to a building binge estimated at more than $1 billion.
And it is improving care in some areas, while raising concerns about rising health-care costs and a possible migration of doctors and health-care services from less affluent areas.
Perhaps surprisingly, the inner city may actually benefit from the build-up as Clarian reinvests suburban profits into its older hospitals. The expansion, though, raises the stakes for hospitals large and small in the suburbs and outlying areas. These hospitals are being forced into a spending race to keep and attract the well-insured patients and offer the profitable procedures that support the health-care system.
From the hospitals' standpoint, changing demographics are forcing them to shift much of their expansion from their urban roots to faster-growing, affluent suburbs.
The reason is simple. It all boils down to something hospitals call the "payer mix."
Hospitals make a premium on the well-insured patients and certain profitable procedures. But they lose a bundle on treating their share of the estimated 45 million Americans without health coverage. They also can lose on treating patients with limited insurance and those covered by Medicare and Medicaid, as well as certain high-cost services, such as staffing emergency rooms
As a result, hospitals increasingly are looking to affluent areas with well-insured residents.
Millions in expansions

Just look around the Indianapolis area. The $284 million Clarian North, which opened Thursday, is just the latest and biggest example of new or revamped health facilities.
There are plenty of other examples on the Northside and north suburbs of Indianapolis:
• St. Vincent this year completed a $19 million renovation and expansion of its women's hospital, which includes remodeled private maternity rooms and the state's largest neonatal intensive care unit.
• Community Health Network is in the midst of a $170 million renovation and expansion on the city's northeastern edge that adds more than 850,000 square feet and includes 282 private patient suites.
• Riverview Hospital, based in Noblesville and facing encroachment of Indianapolis-based hospitals, opened a $20 million Women's Pavilion in 2003 that includes maternity services, mammograms and bone-density testing.
Some local residents, of course, are glad to have updated surroundings when they are in the hospital. Rebecca Holloway, Zionsville, chose St. Vincent Women's Hospital to deliver her daughter, now 19 months old, because she heard about that hospital's planned expansion.
"The decor is not something I think about, but when I was pregnant with my daughter, it was important to me to be somewhere where I had a private room," said Holloway, 28.
At St. Vincent, she got a private room and other comforts. There was plenty of room for her husband to spend the night and for visits from relatives. "It wasn't like your typical idea of a hospital stay."
It was a much different experience from when she delivered her son 11 years ago at an older, Northern Indiana hospital. Holloway said she was whisked from room to room from the time she was admitted to her recovery, where she shared quarters with another mom. "It wasn't comforting whatsoever."
Other hospitals struggling

Much of the region's hospital construction boom is focused on the area's pockets of high growth and affluence. Some in the industry, however, fear that hospitals in areas without those demographics will have a harder time staying financially healthy.
"I think what you're seeing is this gold rush to the Northside," said Tony Lennen, president and chief executive of Major Hospital in Shelbyville, southeast of Indianapolis. "You've got the rest of the state sucking wind."
He said that his hospital, which made a profit of about $5 million in 2004, is headed for its first annual loss since 1989. "Our profitability has just vanished, just vanished overnight," he said.
Almost all of the hospital's 12 percent increase in patient volume this year was from recipients of Medicare and Medicaid, government programs that typically don't reimburse hospitals at a high level. Additionally, Lennen worries that some in Shelby County without good health benefits may be delaying care because they can't afford to pay for treatment.
Despite those challenges, Lennen said he knows he must invest to keep improving the hospital, or many of his patients will drive to Indianapolis for care. Major Hospital has expanded, with a $10 million cancer-treatment center.
Many hospitals worry about rivals coming in and skimming off the most profitable procedures, such as minor surgeries.
In Morgan County, government officials felt so threatened by the big urban hospitals that they attempted to impose a moratorium on the construction of medical facilities in their county to safeguard the financial health of its county-run hospital, Morgan Hospital & Medical Center in Martinsville.
St. Francis won its court challenge, allowing it to continue with the $20.8 million Mooresville expansion that includes new cancer and surgery centers.
Luxury or comfort?

Clarian's Carmel expansion, with its posh fireplace lounges and cherry wood bassinets for newborns, dwarfs any hospital going up in Mooresville.
But Daniel Evans Jr., president and chief executive of Clarian Health Partners, defends the luxurious surroundings at Clarian North, saying the hospital is giving patients what they want. He said amenities are just a small fraction of the hospital's cost, with most of the expense going toward technology and private rooms.
"It's a competitive disadvantage not to provide a level of comfort," Evans said, "and we cannot afford to forego that competitive advantage."
Evans said Clarian is expanding into the suburbs for growth, but its base is firmly Downtown at its three core hospitals: Riley Hospital for Children, and Methodist and Indiana University hospitals.
Those three hospitals still are vital for complex procedures such as performing organ transplants, treating major brain injuries and treating rare diseases in children.
As the suburbs grow, the demand for the specialized services Downtown will grow, as well. "Very specialized patients will stay here," Evans said.
Downtown is seeing its own hospital boom. A new IU Cancer Center worth $150 million is under way. Riley Hospital also is planning a $200 million building project. Methodist Hospital is beginning plans to expand facilities for critical-care patients.
Evans said profits from Clarian North, and its sister, Clarian West Medical Center in Avon, will help fund operations Downtown.
Clarian isn't the only hospital system carefully planning its growth. Like a restaurant chain staking out new locations, local hospital systems are targeting specific slices of territory.
Community Health Network is focusing on growth to the northeast of Indianapolis. "We said we want to own the I-69 corridor," said William Corley, Community's president and CEO.
Community's locations run from its original East hospital in Indianapolis to its Anderson hospital. Community also owns an 85 percent stake in the Indiana Heart Hospital, a for-profit operation next to rapidly expanding Community North.
St. Francis, with its original hospital in Beech Grove, is keeping its focus on the southern half of Indianapolis and its suburbs, said Dr. Worthe Holt, the hospital's chief operating officer.
The hospital recently added a $70 million Cardiac and Vascular Care Center to its Indianapolis hospital. St. Francis is in the middle of a $20.8 million expansion at its Mooresville location.
Elsewhere, St. Vincent collects the bulk of its revenue from its main campus on Indianapolis' Northside and its Carmel hospital. The newly revamped St. Vincent Women's Hospital expects to have about 5,000 births a year, with an additional 2,000 expected in Carmel.
The new Clarian North, however, sits right between those two St. Vincent locations. In fact, Clarian North is catering to many of the same patients that St. Vincent is, specifically women and children.
Already, Clarian has scored a win against St. Vincent. An obstetrics and gynecology group, Women's Health Alliance, has decided to move most of its deliveries from St. Vincent to Clarian North, which is expecting about 2,500 births a year.
St. Vincent Health CEO Vincent Caponi said it "will definitely have an effect on our organization," but he said his organization could handle the competition.
Pros and cons

Experts say the hospital construction around Indianapolis brings many potential benefits, such as improved comfort and upgraded technology.
But there are also risks. One is the potential for overall health-care costs to rise if all the construction turns out to be too much, although it's too early to know for sure.
"There's no way to know at this point and time if there's adequate demand," said Hoangmai Pham, a researcher at the Center for Studying Health System Change who has analyzed the Indianapolis health-care market.
Pham and others are concerned whether enough physicians and their practices will remain Downtown to care for the poor and make sure that emergency rooms are fully staffed.
"There's a declining number of people who are willing to provide care to those less fortunate among us," Dr. D. Craig Brater, dean of Indiana University School of Medicine.
Residents like Janet Cridlin, who lives on the Eastside, are just trying to figure out what this all means for them. Cridlin, 45, doesn't like the mess and traffic hassle when she visits Community North, which is undergoing an expansion to more than double its size. But she said she would welcome a high-tech hospital with cutting-edge care.
It's not just Community North. All around her, hospitals seem to be vying for her health-care needs.
"They're competing against each other, saying, 'We have better facilities that you do.'



LouisvilleJake and I were just talking about all of the new hospitals opening in the Indy suburbs yesterday while he gave me a tour of Louisville.

Here's the pic he was trying to post:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/465/getimageexe5xd.jpg

Very depressing, such a beautiful building torn down to make way for a plaza that sees little use.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3907/getimageex2e2fh.jpg
Oh man!
That building alone would have added a lot to Indy and everyone's perception of it not having enough historical architecture.
What a lost gem.
Passing through and thought I'd give my sympathies.

Upscale care's cost
Clarian's posh, new hospital in Carmel is the latest entry in a race for suburban dollars that is raising concern about inner-city options

At first glance, the new Clarian North Medical Center in Carmel seems like a hospital hidden within a grand hotel.
Patients entering the 120-foot atrium pass by an espresso bar on their way to the examination room. A day spa is coming soon, where pampered patients can get a footbath and tea. And for those staying overnight, room service can be ordered through bedside touch-screen computers.

It's a far cry from the institutional feel that permeates many older hospitals, which have lower ceilings, narrower halls, older tiles -- and perhaps most important to patients, double-occupancy rooms.
But it also underscores a growing reality of health care in the Indianapolis area: If you live in a wealthier neighborhood, you're likely to be close to a hospital with five-star atmosphere.
If you don't, you'll likely receive care in more modest surroundings.
Indianapolis' four big hospital systems -- Clarian Health Partners, St. Vincent Heath, Community Health Network and St. Francis Hospital and Health Centers -- are following the money into the suburbs, contributing to a building binge estimated at more than $1 billion.
And it is improving care in some areas, while raising concerns about rising health-care costs and a possible migration of doctors and health-care services from less affluent areas.
Perhaps surprisingly, the inner city may actually benefit from the build-up as Clarian reinvests suburban profits into its older hospitals. The expansion, though, raises the stakes for hospitals large and small in the suburbs and outlying areas. These hospitals are being forced into a spending race to keep and attract the well-insured patients and offer the profitable procedures that support the health-care system.
From the hospitals' standpoint, changing demographics are forcing them to shift much of their expansion from their urban roots to faster-growing, affluent suburbs.
The reason is simple. It all boils down to something hospitals call the "payer mix."
Hospitals make a premium on the well-insured patients and certain profitable procedures. But they lose a bundle on treating their share of the estimated 45 million Americans without health coverage. They also can lose on treating patients with limited insurance and those covered by Medicare and Medicaid, as well as certain high-cost services, such as staffing emergency rooms
As a result, hospitals increasingly are looking to affluent areas with well-insured residents.
Millions in expansions

Just look around the Indianapolis area. The $284 million Clarian North, which opened Thursday, is just the latest and biggest example of new or revamped health facilities.
There are plenty of other examples on the Northside and north suburbs of Indianapolis:
• St. Vincent this year completed a $19 million renovation and expansion of its women's hospital, which includes remodeled private maternity rooms and the state's largest neonatal intensive care unit.
• Community Health Network is in the midst of a $170 million renovation and expansion on the city's northeastern edge that adds more than 850,000 square feet and includes 282 private patient suites.
• Riverview Hospital, based in Noblesville and facing encroachment of Indianapolis-based hospitals, opened a $20 million Women's Pavilion in 2003 that includes maternity services, mammograms and bone-density testing.
Some local residents, of course, are glad to have updated surroundings when they are in the hospital. Rebecca Holloway, Zionsville, chose St. Vincent Women's Hospital to deliver her daughter, now 19 months old, because she heard about that hospital's planned expansion.
"The decor is not something I think about, but when I was pregnant with my daughter, it was important to me to be somewhere where I had a private room," said Holloway, 28.
At St. Vincent, she got a private room and other comforts. There was plenty of room for her husband to spend the night and for visits from relatives. "It wasn't like your typical idea of a hospital stay."
It was a much different experience from when she delivered her son 11 years ago at an older, Northern Indiana hospital. Holloway said she was whisked from room to room from the time she was admitted to her recovery, where she shared quarters with another mom. "It wasn't comforting whatsoever."
Other hospitals struggling

Much of the region's hospital construction boom is focused on the area's pockets of high growth and affluence. Some in the industry, however, fear that hospitals in areas without those demographics will have a harder time staying financially healthy.
"I think what you're seeing is this gold rush to the Northside," said Tony Lennen, president and chief executive of Major Hospital in Shelbyville, southeast of Indianapolis. "You've got the rest of the state sucking wind."
He said that his hospital, which made a profit of about $5 million in 2004, is headed for its first annual loss since 1989. "Our profitability has just vanished, just vanished overnight," he said.
Almost all of the hospital's 12 percent increase in patient volume this year was from recipients of Medicare and Medicaid, government programs that typically don't reimburse hospitals at a high level. Additionally, Lennen worries that some in Shelby County without good health benefits may be delaying care because they can't afford to pay for treatment.
Despite those challenges, Lennen said he knows he must invest to keep improving the hospital, or many of his patients will drive to Indianapolis for care. Major Hospital has expanded, with a $10 million cancer-treatment center.
Many hospitals worry about rivals coming in and skimming off the most profitable procedures, such as minor surgeries.
In Morgan County, government officials felt so threatened by the big urban hospitals that they attempted to impose a moratorium on the construction of medical facilities in their county to safeguard the financial health of its county-run hospital, Morgan Hospital & Medical Center in Martinsville.
St. Francis won its court challenge, allowing it to continue with the $20.8 million Mooresville expansion that includes new cancer and surgery centers.
Luxury or comfort?

Clarian's Carmel expansion, with its posh fireplace lounges and cherry wood bassinets for newborns, dwarfs any hospital going up in Mooresville.
But Daniel Evans Jr., president and chief executive of Clarian Health Partners, defends the luxurious surroundings at Clarian North, saying the hospital is giving patients what they want. He said amenities are just a small fraction of the hospital's cost, with most of the expense going toward technology and private rooms.
"It's a competitive disadvantage not to provide a level of comfort," Evans said, "and we cannot afford to forego that competitive advantage."
Evans said Clarian is expanding into the suburbs for growth, but its base is firmly Downtown at its three core hospitals: Riley Hospital for Children, and Methodist and Indiana University hospitals.
Those three hospitals still are vital for complex procedures such as performing organ transplants, treating major brain injuries and treating rare diseases in children.
As the suburbs grow, the demand for the specialized services Downtown will grow, as well. "Very specialized patients will stay here," Evans said.
Downtown is seeing its own hospital boom. A new IU Cancer Center worth $150 million is under way. Riley Hospital also is planning a $200 million building project. Methodist Hospital is beginning plans to expand facilities for critical-care patients.
Evans said profits from Clarian North, and its sister, Clarian West Medical Center in Avon, will help fund operations Downtown.
Clarian isn't the only hospital system carefully planning its growth. Like a restaurant chain staking out new locations, local hospital systems are targeting specific slices of territory.
Community Health Network is focusing on growth to the northeast of Indianapolis. "We said we want to own the I-69 corridor," said William Corley, Community's president and CEO.
Community's locations run from its original East hospital in Indianapolis to its Anderson hospital. Community also owns an 85 percent stake in the Indiana Heart Hospital, a for-profit operation next to rapidly expanding Community North.
St. Francis, with its original hospital in Beech Grove, is keeping its focus on the southern half of Indianapolis and its suburbs, said Dr. Worthe Holt, the hospital's chief operating officer.
The hospital recently added a $70 million Cardiac and Vascular Care Center to its Indianapolis hospital. St. Francis is in the middle of a $20.8 million expansion at its Mooresville location.
Elsewhere, St. Vincent collects the bulk of its revenue from its main campus on Indianapolis' Northside and its Carmel hospital. The newly revamped St. Vincent Women's Hospital expects to have about 5,000 births a year, with an additional 2,000 expected in Carmel.
The new Clarian North, however, sits right between those two St. Vincent locations. In fact, Clarian North is catering to many of the same patients that St. Vincent is, specifically women and children.
Already, Clarian has scored a win against St. Vincent. An obstetrics and gynecology group, Women's Health Alliance, has decided to move most of its deliveries from St. Vincent to Clarian North, which is expecting about 2,500 births a year.
St. Vincent Health CEO Vincent Caponi said it "will definitely have an effect on our organization," but he said his organization could handle the competition.
Pros and cons

Experts say the hospital construction around Indianapolis brings many potential benefits, such as improved comfort and upgraded technology.
But there are also risks. One is the potential for overall health-care costs to rise if all the construction turns out to be too much, although it's too early to know for sure.
"There's no way to know at this point and time if there's adequate demand," said Hoangmai Pham, a researcher at the Center for Studying Health System Change who has analyzed the Indianapolis health-care market.
Pham and others are concerned whether enough physicians and their practices will remain Downtown to care for the poor and make sure that emergency rooms are fully staffed.
"There's a declining number of people who are willing to provide care to those less fortunate among us," Dr. D. Craig Brater, dean of Indiana University School of Medicine.
Residents like Janet Cridlin, who lives on the Eastside, are just trying to figure out what this all means for them. Cridlin, 45, doesn't like the mess and traffic hassle when she visits Community North, which is undergoing an expansion to more than double its size. But she said she would welcome a high-tech hospital with cutting-edge care.
It's not just Community North. All around her, hospitals seem to be vying for her health-care needs.
"They're competing against each other, saying, 'We have better facilities that you do.'



LouisvilleJake and I were just talking about all of the new hospitals opening in the Indy suburbs yesterday while he gave me a tour of Louisville.

Hopefully Jake clued you in a bit so you can quit making snide remarks.

Hopefully Jake clued you in a bit so you can quit making snide remarks.


Unfortunately, you are still around here, so that won't happen!

Lol, you are pathetic Cwilson. What will your next flaming remark be?

Carry on people....

What is with the negativity in these forums? This is where people exchange ideas and talk about the positive things we can do to improve our cities, whether it be Louisville, Indianapolis, or New York. Cwilson has provided some very good ideas and inside info. From the posts i've read of yours, Louisville Jake, it sounds like you've contributed nothing and are just looking to make jabs at people. So, I'm asking you, on behalf of the many decent people of these forums, to never post again. Thank you. By the way, I think Louisville is a very nice city...love the Humana building.

Sorry LouisvilleJake, I meant gych...

I will admit that I like to get under Gych's skin. It is very simple to do and thus, enjoyable for me. I do find it humorous how easily offended he gets and therefore it appears as if I take it out on the City, rather than the poster. Other than a few snide comments meant to gat at Gych, you will not find me bad-mouthing the city or saying that it "sucks." I actually think that the City is a diamond in the rough and its best days are still yet not realized. I comment on Louisville because outside of Chicago, it is the nearest city I have visited the most.

That being said, Gych is of a different breed...a much different breed. His obsession with Indianapolis and Nashville are at best, weird. Just about every other thread, he makes reference to one of these 2 cities when trying to elevate his own. I have said it since day one, he should focus on what makes Louisville great and distinct and make that a priority instead of trying to make Louisville better by bashing its nearest neighbors.

^^Whatever, man. You are the one obsessed. Always meddling in our Louisville forum and trying to make backhanded slaps. No Indy forumer would let me take cheap shots at Indy, and I wouldnt, unless enticed by cwilson. So I respond knocking Indy.

Corey, if you offered constructive advice and something intelligent to our forum like you do for Indy, it would be fine. However, in the Louisville forum, you post nonsense or rigged and inflammatory statements--most of them completely out of the blue. You wholeheartedly admit this. So, I respond with nonsense and backhanded jabs as well--its only fair.

And to the guy who told me not to post...nice try. I will post all I want. I apologize to any Indy forumers who dont come in our Lville thread and make backhanded jabs (all of you but Cwilson). But if Corey would just calm out and post normal stuff, I would never mention Indy again. Honestly, I don't care what happens in Indy, however I do enjoy seeing the entire KY/Indiana region prosper.

Personally, Indy left a distaste in my mouth. Its a fine city with a lot going for it, but it wasn't my cup of tea. It had a different "culture" than what I was looking for. That is why I chose to live where I do, even though I am a native Hoosier and still follow state news and news back home as well.

So, lets just leave it at that, unless of course, Corey decides he still wants to make jabs.

Wow. This forum's got drama!

Can anyone give me any additional information on the progress of the regional transit tax that was discussed earlier in this forum? There is a Regional Transit System Summit on Wednesday and I would like to know more about this issue before attending.

Here is the info on the Summit:

Regional Transportation Summit
Public Open House
Wednesday, December 7, 2005
5:30pm – 7:30pm
[Come anytime during the Open House hours]
Old National Bank Grand Hall
Indiana State Fairgrounds
38th Street & Fall Creek Parkway
Sponsored by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Planning
Organization (MPO)

Gych- What exactly did you mean by "different culture"? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious. Are there big cultural differences between Indy and Louisville?

^^^I won't go there. Its just different. You would have to live in both cities; the cities give off different vibes. Not a bad thing for either, they are just very different, despite the fact that they are similar, if that makes any sense?

I am going to an IRT Council Meeting tomorrow, but I doubt I attend the open house...actually, I know I wont. Our Historic District has its hearing at the same time.

Fair enough. I just didn't know if there was anything specific that made a difference. I think a lot of it has to do with Louisville being a river town. Even some of the smaller river towns in southern Indiana have a distinct feel to them.

I think the Artsgarden is a unique example of architecture. Is there anything else like it in another city? Many cities have landmarks or structure that they are know for. I always thought that the artsgarden would become something like that. Also, does OneAmerica (former AUL) still own the city block to the north of their building? I think I remember talk of them building another high-rise on that parcel. Any news on developing that block? It would be nice to see a surface parking lot replace with a new tall building.

I think the Artsgarden is a unique example of architecture. Is there anything else like it in another city? Many cities have landmarks or structure that they are know for. I always thought that the artsgarden would become something like that. Also, does OneAmerica (former AUL) still own the city block to the north of their building? I think I remember talk of them building another high-rise on that parcel. Any news on developing that block? It would be nice to see a surface parking lot replace with a new tall building.

I like the Artsgarden, but its not an original design. It looks like a copy of Pelli's Wintergarden in NYC.

As for the empty lot OneAmerica owns, I havent heard of any talk of the rumored second tower in years.

Can anyone give me any additional information on the progress of the regional transit tax that was discussed earlier in this forum? There is a Regional Transit System Summit on Wednesday and I would like to know more about this issue before attending.

Here is the info on the Summit:

Regional Transportation Summit
Public Open House
Wednesday, December 7, 2005
5:30pm – 7:30pm
[Come anytime during the Open House hours]
Old National Bank Grand Hall
Indiana State Fairgrounds
38th Street & Fall Creek Parkway
Sponsored by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Planning
Organization (MPO)

Unfortunately I wont be able to make it, but if you end up going, let us know how it goes.

Some real estate news tidbits from the IBJ...

For sale
The Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church at 40th and Pennsylvania streets is on the market for $2.4 million. Locally based Acorn Group Inc. is listing the three-acre complex, which includes the 11,399-square-foot church and a 12,219-square-foot, two-story cultural center with a full kitchen, 12 classrooms and a multi-purpose room. The congregation is moving to a new church in Carmel. Early interest in the property has come from church organizations and firms interested in redeveloping the site, said Thomas Cortese, the Acorn listing agent.

Construction
Locally based Boyle Construction Inc. has been hired to build a 12,000-square-foot Citi Trends, a Georgia-based clothing chain. The store at 52nd Street and Keystone Avenue will be the first one in Indiana for the 225-store retailer. Construction is expected to be complete by the middle of January. Boyle is also building a 950-square-foot Rally's Hamburger restaurant near the same intersection. It is expected to be complete by Jan. 10.

Market statistics
Downtown Indianapolis had a 10.9-percent vacancy rate for multi-tenant office buildings at the end of the third quarter, according to Meridian Real Estate. The report includes Class A and Class B buildings. Downtown tenants absorbed 168,352 square feet of space. Half of the suburban markets are seeing improved vacancy rates, with the majority of absorption occurring in the North Meridian/Carmel submarkets, the report said.

http://64.255.242.145/rew/

Australian medical diagnostics firm to move here

AION Diagnostics Ltd., a subsidiary of Australia-based pSivida Ltd., today said it plans to move its headquarters to Indianapolis. Details could not be obtained before IBJ Daily deadline, but a spokeswoman for pSivida confirmed the news. AION, a one-year-old imaging and biosensors firm, expects to begin marketing at least 15 products by 2008. The company plans to develop products through collaborations with universities, research institutions and industry partners and has already formed a relationship with Purdue University, the spokeswoman said, naming Jorg Schreiber, a Purdue researcher, as one of AION`s directors. PSivida is a global bio-nanotech company that develops a modified form of silicon that is used in humans and animals. It has licensed diagnostic and sensor applications of the silicon technology to AION.

http://64.255.242.145/ibjdaily/

Clarian shifting 450 jobs to Eastside
Hospital purchases building in Shadeland Avenue corridor; move is set for the spring

Clarian Health Partners will move about 450 jobs to Indianapolis' Eastside beginning in the spring.

Clarian paid $1.1 million for the former Union Acceptance Corp. building on the northwest corner of Washington Street and Shadeland Avenue, hospital officials said Monday.

Workers, primarily nonclinical support staff, will be transferred from other Clarian offices.

"What a great fit," said Ruth Ann Walker of the Warren Township Development Association. "That's a very viable long-term employer."

The Shadeland Avenue corridor once was among the city's most bustling retail districts, especially in the two decades after Eastgate Consumer Mall's opening in 1957. But activity at the mall and surrounding area diminished through the 1980s and 1990s as shoppers gravitated to more modern shopping centers, such as Washington Square Mall several miles to the east.

In 1985, the closing of a Western Electric/AT&T facility on North Shadeland Avenue added to the neighborhood's decline.

Recently, a new mix of light-industrial business, administrative offices and small retail operations has spurred a revival for the corridor, Walker said.

Clarian officials acknowledged the Eastgate neighborhood's past.

"We are pleased . . . to bring opportunity and jobs to this area, which has a rich and important history," said Daniel F. Evans Jr., Clarian's president and CEO, in a prepared statement.

The two-story building at 250 N. Shadeland Ave. measures 126,000 square feet and sits on 15.25 acres.

Mayor Bart Peterson called Clarian's move more good news for the Eastside, which also has seen national chains such as Dick's Sporting Goods, Marshall's Department Store and Kerasotes ShowPlace Theaters bring new business to the Washington Square Mall area.

Along the Shadeland corridor, Pratt Corp., a company specializing in graphics for retailers, recently moved about 190 employees to a facility near 30th Street and Shadeland Avenue.

Now, Clarian's investment in the area "will help continue the Eastside's revitalization," Peterson said.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051206/NEWS01/512060460&SearchID=73228674678771

I like the Artsgarden, but its not an original design. It looks like a copy of Pelli's Wintergarden in NYC.

As for the empty lot OneAmerica owns, I havent heard of any talk of the rumored second tower in years.

I'll be durned... it does look like it. Thanks for pointing that out.
http://www.nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM-World_Financial_Center_Winter_Garden_1.jpg
Although it is 10 stories tall, and isn't elevated. The artsgarden is pretty original, and I like it.

Can anyone give me any additional information on the progress of the regional transit tax that was discussed earlier in this forum? There is a Regional Transit System Summit on Wednesday and I would like to know more about this issue before attending.

Here is the info on the Summit:

Regional Transportation Summit
Public Open House
Wednesday, December 7, 2005
5:30pm – 7:30pm
[Come anytime during the Open House hours]
Old National Bank Grand Hall
Indiana State Fairgrounds
38th Street & Fall Creek Parkway
Sponsored by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Planning
Organization (MPO)


I'd love to go, unfortunately I've got a very important Pacer game to attend.

edit - ooh wait... That's tomorrow isn't it? Maybe I can attend...

Gych- What exactly did you mean by "different culture"? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious. Are there big cultural differences between Indy and Louisville?

To be brutally honest, judging by his posts, "different culture" means "too many black people".

I calls em as I see em.

To be brutally honest, judging by his posts, "different culture" means "too many black people".

I calls em as I see em.


You are a nimwit twit for saying that. First of all, there are just as many blacks here and probably a higher percentage in the old city--just ask Soulbrotha, he posted an article about Louisville having some of the poorest black hoods in America. If anything, Indy is the one that is not as diverse, so why would I want to move to a city with more blacks per capita? I am really not sure which city has more blacks but both have a lot. Your argument makes zero sense.

THEREFORE, by different culture, I mean there ISNT much culture FOR ME in Indy. Thats not to say it isnt a nice city, just not for me. The vibe I get in Indy is people get excited about Palomino versus, say an upscale local bistro here in Louisville like Primo. That is the vibe I felt there. IMO Louisville is a more artsy city, there are better restuarants, parks, antique shops, and IMO just a "different culture." No amount of numbers or facts can quantify this feeling; its just the way I and many others feel. Someone asked me what I meant, and I didnt come out and say what I meant bc I was afraid everyone in Indy will get all defensive. There. I said it.

Also, there was no Highlands in Indy, certainly not as many liberals (just look and see how many more people here voted for Gore), and certainly nothing like our First Friday Art Gallery hops and four and five star restuarants (great, I hear you are adding an art gallery "hop"). There was no Vietanmese neighborhood (although Indy has some nice Mexican areas), and not nearly as much of the historic architecure I like in a city; Indy had no Old Louisville. This is what I like in a city, and to me, Louisville does it better, despite all this "metro size" bullshit you guys throw at me.

You want to be a dumbass and try to call me out on some shit? Ill throw it back at you. Thats what I mean. How dare you imply that I am racist when I live in downtown Louisville which is extremely diverse. Maybe you should look up the word "connotation" before you blatantly try to accuse someone of something with absolutely no grounds for it.

You are a nimwit twit for saying that. First of all, there are just as many blacks here and probably a higher percentage in the old city--just ask Soulbrotha, he posted an article about Louisville having some of the poorest black hoods in America. If anything, Indy is the one that is not as diverse, so why would I want to move to a city with more blacks per capita? I am really not sure which city has more blacks but both have a lot. Your argument makes zero sense.

THEREFORE, by different culture, I mean there ISNT much culture FOR ME in Indy. Thats not to say it isnt a nice city, just not for me. The vibe I get in Indy is people get excited about Palomino versus, say an upscale local bistro here in Louisville like Primo. That is the vibe I felt there. IMO Louisville is a more artsy city, there are better restuarants, parks, antique shops, and IMO just a "different culture." No amount of numbers or facts can quantify this feeling; its just the way I and many others feel. Someone asked me what I meant, and I didnt come out and say what I meant bc I was afraid everyone in Indy will get all defensive. There. I said it.

Also, there was no Highlands in Indy, certainly not as many liberals (just look and see how many more people here voted for Gore), and certainly nothing like our First Friday Art Gallery hops and four and five star restuarants (great, I hear you are adding an art gallery "hop"). There was no Vietanmese neighborhood (although Indy has some nice Mexican areas), and not nearly as much of the historic architecure I like in a city; Indy had no Old Louisville. This is what I like in a city, and to me, Louisville does it better, despite all this "metro size" bullshit you guys throw at me.

You want to be a dumbass and try to call me out on some shit? Ill throw it back at you. Thats what I mean. How dare you imply that I am racist when I live in downtown Louisville which is extremely diverse. Maybe you should look up the word "connotation" before you blatantly try to accuse someone of something with absolutely no grounds for it.

Interesting post. According to Census estimates 33 percent of our city is minorities, of which 26 percent are Black. In fact inside the pre unigov limits blacks are about to surpass whites as the most populous ethnic group. So Indianapolis is diverse. :eek2: You are certainly entitled to your opinion but when it comes to numbers the least you could do is back up your stats. I dont have a problem with Louisville, I was there in May but I prefer Indy to most cities, that's a bias that I have. But provide some facts if you are to play the numbers game.

Gych is a twit...plain and simple.

Of course, when Palomino opened here 10 years ago, it was a big deal because it was a part of Circle Centre and that was when downtown was exploding. I guarantee that if Palomino decided to open a restaurant in Louisville, it would be a big deal...I mean, there were countless posts and news paper articles about the damn Cheesecake Factory opening in your city, so don't give me that crap. Your city and its residents would be falling over themselves with excitment if Palomino opened there.

As for the Gore vote, um...OK. The Gore vote was pre consolidation for your City, so of course an inner-city is going to go dem. If you were to look at Indy, you would find the same exact voting pattern in the inner city. NOW, why don't you look at the most recent election and see how Jefferson County voted compared to Marion County. I know that Marion County voted Dem, decisively. How did Jefferson County vote?

You may think that Louisville does it better, but the numbers don't lie. I will give Louisville credit all day on its architecture...its a river city and is supposed to have that. Its amazing what a 50-year head start will do for a City. But as far as Indy being inferior in terms of culture, get a life. We have it all here and you know it. "Better Antique shops." That has to be the MOST rediculous claim I have ever read on this forum, and trust me, I have read some doozies...especially from you. You know, the perception to you may be that the art and culture scene is bigger in Louisville, but that is because that is ALL YOU HAVE and you LIVE there (don't give me your few-month stint as living here either). No sports, no capitol City status, nothing but going out to eat and a few art galleries. You have beautiful parks in Louisville, so does Indy. The claims you make are all "in the eye of the beholder." Nothing more. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just that, and opinion. If you have data on the nation's best city for antique shops, bring it on. Until then, get a life!


Cling to your culture claim, because it is all you have. HOWEVER, I could list all the galleries, all of the performing art compaines, local/indie theatres, Broadway shows, etc. BUT WHY? Indy is very culture-focused, something the mayor has made a priority. I fully expect your "per capita claim for Louisville" with regards to arts, and that may be true..."per capita." That doesn't mean you have the most or the best. BY A LONG SHOT.

You can't stand it that Indy has jumped so far ahead of Louisville in the perverbial pack, that you are blinded by jealousy! Yes, Louisville is a competitor city to Indy with regards to jobs and business, but that is it. So are Grand Rapids, Chicago and Dayton for that matter. But in terms of everything else, no, I doubt you will find many people in Indy say "like Louisville." Something I have certainly read in your local paper with regards to Nashville and Indy.

Now, come back with something worth reading, until then, do us all a favor and go away.

Tourists in Indy are opening their wallets wider, study says

When the Final Four is in town, the operators of RAM Restaurant turn bullish.
The NCAA basketball tournament means thousands of people will walk through the doors of the Downtown Indianapolis sports bar and restaurant. They'll plunk down dollars as they straddle barstools and fill up booths.

It's all about the tourists, as far as David Hornak is concerned.
"We're very event-driven in Downtown Indianapolis with the conventions and sporting events," said Hornak, area manager for RAM. "It's a big mix, depending on what's going on."
When it comes to tourism, that's a recipe for success, according to a study released today by the Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association.
Indianapolis is drawing millions of visitors every year, creating tens of thousands of jobs and making millions of dollars.
In 2004, 20 million tourists contributed $3.27 billion to the local economy. That's up from $2.89 billion in 2001.
That makes tourism the No. 8 industry in the region in terms of direct and indirect employment, according to the study, behind the top three of professional and business services, education and health services and manufacturing. The region includes Marion, Boone, Hamilton, Hancock, Hendricks, Johnson, Madison, Morgan and Shelby counties.
"This is pretty impressive -- at least we think it is," said Matthew Carter, vice president of strategic development for the ICVA.
Indeed, Indianapolis is keeping pace with and, in some cases, doing better than peer cities such as Cincinnati and Columbus, Ohio.
Sure, Indianapolis is no vacation spot like Orlando or San Francisco when it comes to attracting tourists. But in terms of spending, leisure visitors to Indianapolis beat out business travelers in 2004.
"Indianapolis is right where it needs to be," said Christopher Pike, a consultant for Global Insight, which conducted the study with D.K. Shifflet & Associates Ltd.
Keeping the city, the region and the state there is the next challenge.
More marketing -- both to out-of-towners and locals -- seems to be the most popular solution.
ICVA officials, for instance, support coming up with a brand for Indianapolis and the Central Indiana region.
Ohio is known for family fun because of its amusement parks. Michigan is known for outdoor recreation. Illinois is known for arts and culture because of Chicago. And Kentucky is known for its hospitality.
"If you take a look at Indianapolis and strip it down to its core, it's a nondescript piece of flat land with a nondescript river running through it," Carter said. "We're a city where success comes from collaboration and partnership."
At the Indiana Office of Tourism Development, officials are trying to define a marketing niche for the state.
"One of the biggest challenges we face is growing our brand," said director Amy Vaughan, whose office will release its 2006 strategic plan next week.
"The biggest problem we have is defining tourism to the average Indianapolis citizen," said Sotiris Avgoustis, chair of the Department of Tourism, Conventions and Event Management at IUPUI. "They think tourism is just people visiting Indianapolis."
They don't understand how crucial it is to the economy, he said.
Then there's the question of whom Indianapolis should market itself to: leisure travelers, business travelers, or a mix of both?
Most officials say both, although the state's office of tourism focuses solely on leisure travelers.
Right now, 56 percent of visitors who stay overnight are business travelers, with 25 percent coming for conventions and meetings. But leisure travelers contribute more money to the economy. The leisure market also is growing and probably will overtake the business travel market in the next few years, according to the ICVA.
Mayor Bart Peterson's office is working to support both.
Promoting sporting events, such as the Indianapolis 500, and cultural spots, such as the newly expanded Eiteljorg Museum, are important. But so is landing a business convention that brings tens of thousands of people to the city for a weekend, said Gordon Hendry, director of economic development for the city.
Hotels and restaurants get fat on business travelers.
The constant influx of visitors is one of the main reasons Downtown is now a destination for eating out, said Steve Delaney, a restaurant specialist with Carmel-based Linder Co.
"Because of the success of the restaurants Downtown, other restaurants have come Downtown, as well," he said.
The opportunity to turn a profit is one reason hotel and restaurant owners are looking forward to 2010 -- when the bigger stadium and Convention Center will be completed.
NASCAR races, Colts games and other short-term sporting events lure leisure travelers the most. That's one reason Indianapolis excels at drawing people for day trips or weekend jaunts, rather than for weeklong stays.
Most of those travelers come from Chicago, Fort Wayne, Louisville, Ky., Terre Haute, South Bend, Cincinnati, Dayton and Toledo, Ohio, and St. Louis.
Even the Indianapolis region is represented on that list as residents from outlying areas come to the center of town for a weekend getaway.
"More and more people are recognizing the great things Indianapolis has to offer," Hendry said.

Convention central

Here are the top 10 conventions scheduled for Indianapolis next year, ranked by expected visitor spending and expected attendance.
1. FFA: $30 million, 54,000 visitors.
2. NCAA Final Four: $28.1 million, 43,000 visitors.
3. Fire Department Instructors Conference: $24.7 million, 25,000 visitors.
4. Church of God's 71st International General Assembly: $22.9 million, 25,000 visitors.
5. Gen Con LLC: $21.8 million, 25,000 visitors.
6. Dealer Expo: $15.5 million, 21,000 visitors.
7. Bands of America: $13.2 million, 35,000 visitors.
8. Barbershop Harmony Society: $11.2 million, 9,000 visitors.
9. Do it Best Corp. (May convention): $10.6 million, 12,000 visitors.
10. Do it Best Corp. (October convention): $10.6 million: 12,000 visitors.
Source: Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association

Some really good numbers here!

There's no doubt that the convention business is the life blood that keeps the city alive, and with the convention center expansion, it looks to fuel growth in the future as well.

As far as the verbal abuse in the last few posts....Gych loves Louisville and will fight for and back his city like he should. Everyone on this thread, me included, are proud of Indy and will defend it against other cities. Let's try to respect each other, but it is fun when the fur flies and little bit :bash:

I will say this...Louisville and Indy have more to offer than my beloved city of Gary. Gary has a lot of potential and great architecture that is rotting away. I think Indy has come a long way compared to Louisville. Being a river city, Louisville has been on the map for some time. Louisville, Cincinnati, St. Louis have always been major cities everybody knew about. Indy, for the longest time, had just been below that level of major city up until around 25 years ago. Before then, Indy used to be known as Naptown and India-no-place. Times have changed. The people of Indianapolis have drastically changed that perception and are continuing to do that. I think cities like Indianapolis, such as Louisville (as in size), are seeing that you can't rest on your laurels and that you must continued to build and promote your city. Maybe someday Gary will see the resurrgence that Indianapolis has seen.

Maybe someday Gary will see the resurrgence that Indianapolis has seen.

I'm sorry... but Gary, Indiana is about as likely to experience the same resurrgence Indianapolis has seen as the Packers winning this year's superbowl. It's just not going to happen.

Gych is a twit...plain and simple.

Of course, when Palomino opened here 10 years ago, it was a big deal because it was a part of Circle Centre and that was when downtown was exploding. I guarantee that if Palomino decided to open a restaurant in Louisville, it would be a big deal...I mean, there were countless posts and news paper articles about the damn Cheesecake Factory opening in your city, so don't give me that crap. Your city and its residents would be falling over themselves with excitment if Palomino opened there.

As for the Gore vote, um...OK. The Gore vote was pre consolidation for your City, so of course an inner-city is going to go dem. If you were to look at Indy, you would find the same exact voting pattern in the inner city. NOW, why don't you look at the most recent election and see how Jefferson County voted compared to Marion County. I know that Marion County voted Dem, decisively. How did Jefferson County vote?

You may think that Louisville does it better, but the numbers don't lie. I will give Louisville credit all day on its architecture...its a river city and is supposed to have that. Its amazing what a 50-year head start will do for a City. But as far as Indy being inferior in terms of culture, get a life. We have it all here and you know it. "Better Antique shops." That has to be the MOST rediculous claim I have ever read on this forum, and trust me, I have read some doozies...especially from you. You know, the perception to you may be that the art and culture scene is bigger in Louisville, but that is because that is ALL YOU HAVE and you LIVE there (don't give me your few-month stint as living here either). No sports, no capitol City status, nothing but going out to eat and a few art galleries. You have beautiful parks in Louisville, so does Indy. The claims you make are all "in the eye of the beholder." Nothing more. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just that, and opinion. If you have data on the nation's best city for antique shops, bring it on. Until then, get a life!


Cling to your culture claim, because it is all you have. HOWEVER, I could list all the galleries, all of the performing art compaines, local/indie theatres, Broadway shows, etc. BUT WHY? Indy is very culture-focused, something the mayor has made a priority. I fully expect your "per capita claim for Louisville" with regards to arts, and that may be true..."per capita." That doesn't mean you have the most or the best. BY A LONG SHOT.

You can't stand it that Indy has jumped so far ahead of Louisville in the perverbial pack, that you are blinded by jealousy! Yes, Louisville is a competitor city to Indy with regards to jobs and business, but that is it. So are Grand Rapids, Chicago and Dayton for that matter. But in terms of everything else, no, I doubt you will find many people in Indy say "like Louisville." Something I have certainly read in your local paper with regards to Nashville and Indy.

Now, come back with something worth reading, until then, do us all a favor and go away.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/PresidentialByCounty.aspx?oi=P&rti=G&tf=l&sp=IN

Election 2004
Precincts Bush Kerry
Jefferson KY 506 506 164,566 170,158 1,784
Precincts Bush Kerry
Marion IN 915 915 155,843 161,957 0
and if you look closer, you will see that even Louisville's Indiana suburbs arent as conservative and red as counties surrounding Indy.

So as you can see both major counties voted democratic. Perhaps the most pathetic thing is nearly 20k more people voted in Jefferson KY than Marion IN. And you guys are a bigger city? RIIIIIGHT. I just really dont buy it--the urban cores in the two cities are damn similar.

Thats another part of what I mean by a different culture. Louisville is more similar to Austin, TX than Indianapolis. Like Austin, Louisville has adopted the "Keep Louisville Wierd" slogan. Louisville is a more independent alternative feeling, and liberal city IMO. Indy has lots of culture too, but the north side especially is very corporate and mini van loving. Sure, Louisville's east side is very similar, but it hasnt grown as big as the Carmel-Fishers-Noblesville corridor. When you get down to the nitty gritty, the main population difference btwn Louisville and Indy metro is Louisville has no Carmel or Hamilton County, or at least nothing as big. As far as I am concerned, you guys can have that. It will only cause you big time problems in 30 years when the Walmart and TJmaxx lifestyle dies.

Metro area doesnt mean everything. Both Louisville and Austin have major college sports. We dont care about pro sports. Indy is the capitol? Who cares. Sure, a lot of my statements are more based on opinion, but the point is Louisville and Indy are both major cities, viewed by someone outside the region on relatively the same level (provided they had visited both). Iny has pro sports but lacks good college sports. Louisville has a great amusement park but Indy suburbs have a nice concert venue. The list goes on and on, and thats why Indy nor Louisville is a complete city. Hell, if you combined the best attributes of both cities, youd have a mini Chicago.

You want data? I have plenty more:

Louisville has more people in a 5 mile radius of its downtown zip (40202) than Indy (46204). The 10 mile radius is pretty similar too.

http://www.melissadata.com/lookups/zipradius.asp?zipcode=46204&radius=5&submit1=Process

Louisville 5 mile :Total population in radius = 256,695

Total number of businesses in radius = 14,719

Indy 5 mile Total population in radius = 235,687

Total number of businesses in radius = 13,909

Can anyone give me any additional information on the progress of the regional transit tax that was discussed earlier in this forum? There is a Regional Transit System Summit on Wednesday and I would like to know more about this issue before attending.

Here is the info on the Summit:

Regional Transportation Summit
Public Open House
Wednesday, December 7, 2005
5:30pm – 7:30pm
[Come anytime during the Open House hours]
Old National Bank Grand Hall
Indiana State Fairgrounds
38th Street & Fall Creek Parkway
Sponsored by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Planning
Organization (MPO)

Did you go? What's the word?

This is Gych on one of his tirades:

:soapbox:

And this is the reaction of everyone else who bothers to skim through his posts:

:wallbash: :ohno: :nuts: :weird: :hammer:

Gych, I like Louisville. A lot. It's a nice little city that feels like a huge college town. I prefer Indy because it has more of a big city vibe, expecially downtown. This is just a personal preference. And yes, I like Louisville's downtown. The Humana building is better than any tall that Indy has. Michael Graves sure is a great architect isn't he? Where is he from again?...

<coughs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Graves <coughs>

What I don't understand is this bizarre need to promote Louisville... to the extent that you'll even post misleading data.. Give it a rest already. And for the record, This is Louisville:
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=101641
Population: 700,030 in city and 1,334,002 in metro

72 high-rise buildings

And this is Naptown:
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=101039
Population: 784,242 in city and 1,939,349 in metro

137 high-rise buildings

Misleading data? How so. Its the facts. More people voted in Louisville, and voted Democratic in Louisvile-Jefferson than Indy-Marion. Thats sad for Indy. I dont need to promote Louisville. IMO it is more of a big city than Indy bc its more cultured, despite all the metro numbers you post. Using the word little college town doesnt make sense when they are close to the same size dude, and you know it. You posted the CSA's which for Indy includes places like Anderson and Muncie. Are you proud of those areas? If so, more power to you.

People look at urban cores in judging a city, and even when you move out to a 20 mile radius, Indy isnt that much bigger and it includes bumblefuck farmtowns like Fountaintown, IN for Indy and New Middletown, IN for Louisville. Do you really think having more of these one walmart towns surrounding you makes you a big city and Louisville a small town? I dont think so man. Indy is bigger than Louisville--but in reality not by much.

Lets look at the 20 mile radius:

Enter Center ZIP Code LOUISVILLE, KY
Enter Radius in miles

ZIP Code City State County Population Number of Businesses Distance Type
40202 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 5,118 4,712 0.0
40270 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 13 0.3 P
40297 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 0.3 U
40287 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 0.4 U
40293 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 0.4 U
40294 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 0.4 U
40295 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 0.4 U
40296 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 0.4 U
40289 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 1 0.4 U
40203 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 20,837 1,100 0.7
40201 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 188 1.2 P
40204 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 14,953 949 1.8
40208 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 13,206 519 2.2
40210 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 16,273 319 2.2
40217 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 13,568 590 2.5
40292 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 25 2.5 U
47132 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 0 0 2.6 U
47133 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 0 0 2.6 U
47134 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 0 0 2.6 U
47144 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 0 0 2.6 U
47199 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 0 0 2.6 U
40212 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 20,307 310 2.7
40206 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 19,792 924 2.9
40211 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 23,553 594 3.2
40251 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 34 3.7 P
40280 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 6 3.7 U
47129 CLARKSVILLE IN CLARK 20,555 923 4.1
40290 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 4.1 U
40205 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 24,170 1,080 4.2
40255 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 24 4.2 P
40209 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 452 280 4.2
47130 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 38,774 1,575 4.3
47190 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 0 0 4.3 U
40221 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 21 4.4 P
40261 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 30 4.4 P
40215 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 25,137 497 4.6
40285 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 4.8 P
40041 MASONIC HOME KY JEFFERSON 0 5 4.9 P
40298 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 5.1 P
40213 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 17,553 1,046 5.3
40257 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 61 5.3 P
47150 NEW ALBANY IN FLOYD 46,902 1,882 5.5
40231 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 5.5 P
40232 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 183 5.5 P
40233 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 55 5.5 P
40207 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 30,171 2,640 5.8
47151 NEW ALBANY IN FLOYD 0 209 5.8 P
47131 JEFFERSONVILLE IN CLARK 0 178 6.1 P
40216 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 39,924 1,190 6.2
40256 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 46 6.3 P
40218 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 29,094 1,517 6.6
40025 GLENVIEW KY JEFFERSON 0 3 6.6 P
40214 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 44,086 1,029 6.6
40252 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 57 7.4 P
40225 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 9 7.4 U
40220 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 32,834 928 7.8
40250 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 44 7.8 P
40222 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 20,860 1,708 8.0
40259 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 74 8.6 P
40219 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 36,933 1,159 8.6
40242 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 10,349 248 9.0
47172 SELLERSBURG IN CLARK 11,921 422 9.6
40268 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 36 9.6 P
40258 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 24,117 594 9.7
40027 HARRODS CREEK KY JEFFERSON 0 7 9.9 P
40118 FAIRDALE KY JEFFERSON 9,319 167 10.0
47119 FLOYDS KNOBS IN FLOYD 9,777 266 10.2
40241 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 24,421 569 10.3
40228 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 11,256 367 10.3
40059 PROSPECT KY JEFFERSON 11,000 372 10.8
47146 MOUNT SAINT FRANCIS IN FLOYD 0 5 10.9 P
40223 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 21,970 1,178 10.9
40282 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 11.1 U
40266 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 11.1 U
40283 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 11.1 U
40281 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 0 11.1 U
40018 EASTWOOD KY JEFFERSON 0 15 11.3 P
40224 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 31 11.3 P
40291 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 27,759 634 11.5
40243 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 8,864 743 11.8
40299 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 31,483 1,840 11.8
40253 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 89 12.0 P
40229 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 30,298 438 12.1
47136 LANESVILLE IN HARRISON 3,708 53 12.2
40272 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 34,740 608 12.2
47122 GEORGETOWN IN FLOYD 8,425 184 13.0
40109 BROOKS KY BULLITT 2,258 92 13.4
40269 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 0 84 14.4 P
40245 LOUISVILLE KY JEFFERSON 16,094 314 14.9
40056 PEWEE VALLEY KY OLDHAM 3,257 93 15.0
40026 GOSHEN KY OLDHAM 4,603 71 15.1
47143 MEMPHIS IN CLARK 2,002 40 15.1
47117 ELIZABETH IN HARRISON 4,138 54 15.6
47111 CHARLESTOWN IN CLARK 12,045 351 15.7
47124 GREENVILLE IN FLOYD 3,821 75 15.7
47106 BORDEN IN CLARK 4,395 103 16.4
47160 NEW MIDDLETOWN IN HARRISON 37 10 17.4
40165 SHEPHERDSVILLE KY BULLITT 26,827 842 17.6
47114 CRANDALL IN HARRISON 161 8 17.7
40047 MOUNT WASHINGTON KY BULLITT 13,794 363 17.8
40014 CRESTWOOD KY OLDHAM 14,973 497 17.8
40010 BUCKNER KY OLDHAM 291 78 18.5
40023 FISHERVILLE KY JEFFERSON 1,808 50 19.3
47161 NEW SALISBURY IN HARRISON 3,426 81 19.4

Total population in radius = 948,389

Total number of businesses in radius = 40,809

Enter Center ZIP Code INDIANAPOLIS, IN
Enter Radius in miles

ZIP Code City State County Population Number of Businesses Distance Type
46204 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 6,636 4,069 0.0
46244 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 90 0.1 P
46266 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 2 0.1 U
46282 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 187 0.1
46295 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 0 0.2 U
46209 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 1 0.2 U
46255 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 4 0.3 U
46277 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 3 0.5 U
46206 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 203 0.7 P
46202 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 14,997 2,444 0.8
46223 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 0 1.2 U
46285 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 21 1.6 U
46296 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 0 1.8 U
46225 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 8,262 682 1.8
46207 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 11 1.9 P
46201 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 39,156 828 2.5
46283 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 2 2.5 U
46203 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 40,433 1,225 3.3
46222 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 36,364 1,167 3.4
46208 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 25,531 849 3.5
46218 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 34,607 1,003 3.9
46205 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 29,701 1,118 4.1
46107 BEECH GROVE IN MARION 12,642 445 5.1
46253 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 58 5.6 P
46241 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 29,944 1,338 5.6
46224 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 35,166 802 5.7
46228 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 15,143 216 5.8
46219 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 36,501 1,823 5.9
46221 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 24,055 554 6.0
46291 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 0 6.0 U
46247 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 40 6.7 P
46251 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 38 6.7 P
46227 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 52,818 1,981 6.9
46220 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 35,264 2,454 7.0
46230 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 20 7.1 P
46242 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 53 7.2 P
46214 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 22,287 550 7.2
46217 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 19,210 743 7.3
46226 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 44,865 1,282 7.3
46254 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 34,845 1,193 7.5
46237 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 29,770 703 7.7
46239 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 13,654 440 8.4
46260 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 31,502 1,546 9.0
46234 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 18,222 352 9.2
46231 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 5,513 178 9.3
46268 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 23,149 2,004 9.5
46229 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 23,498 828 9.5
46249 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 11 9.6 U
46216 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 261 161 9.6
46211 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 0 9.7 U
46274 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 0 9.7 U
46275 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 0 9.7 U
46240 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 17,975 2,180 9.8
46235 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 24,070 167 10.0
46142 GREENWOOD IN JOHNSON 30,945 1,399 10.4
46250 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 17,080 1,879 10.5
46183 WEST NEWTON IN MARION 0 12 10.5 P
46298 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 0 3 10.6 U
46278 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 6,998 532 11.1
46290 INDIANAPOLIS IN HAMILTON 189 215 11.4
46259 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 6,681 116 11.5
46256 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 24,661 1,065 11.6
46280 INDIANAPOLIS IN HAMILTON 6,338 361 11.7
46143 GREENWOOD IN JOHNSON 31,623 835 12.0
46113 CAMBY IN MORGAN 6,666 119 12.6
46123 AVON IN HENDRICKS 20,595 728 12.6
46236 INDIANAPOLIS IN MARION 26,552 548 13.0
46168 PLAINFIELD IN HENDRICKS 22,790 803 13.4
46163 NEW PALESTINE IN HANCOCK 9,574 227 13.4
46112 BROWNSBURG IN HENDRICKS 25,403 758 13.5
46032 CARMEL IN HAMILTON 34,727 2,388 13.8
46033 CARMEL IN HAMILTON 29,067 416 14.4
46077 ZIONSVILLE IN BOONE 15,885 808 14.8
46038 FISHERS IN HAMILTON 39,709 1,359 15.2
46184 WHITELAND IN JOHNSON 9,539 277 15.3
46055 MC CORDSVILLE IN HANCOCK 3,578 134 15.4
46158 MOORESVILLE IN MORGAN 23,758 736 16.8
46126 FAIRLAND IN SHELBY 4,895 96 17.1
46167 PITTSBORO IN HENDRICKS 4,691 102 17.5
46106 BARGERSVILLE IN JOHNSON 4,143 112 17.9
46130 FOUNTAINTOWN IN SHELBY 2,219 39 18.0
46162 NEEDHAM IN JOHNSON 411 7 18.3
46074 WESTFIELD IN HAMILTON 10,591 469 18.3
46110 BOGGSTOWN IN SHELBY 501 12 19.1
46154 MAXWELL IN HANCOCK 0 14 19.2 P
46129 FINLY IN HANCOCK 0 4 19.2 P
46075 WHITESTOWN IN BOONE 1,767 87 19.4
46140 GREENFIELD IN HANCOCK 32,694 1,278 19.6
46122 DANVILLE IN HENDRICKS 12,342 547 19.7
46111 BROOKLYN IN MORGAN 181 20 19.7 P
46040 FORTVILLE IN HANCOCK 7,744 236 19.9

Total population in radius = 1,260,578

Total number of businesses in radius = 54,810

Kentucky Kingdon a great amusemnet park...BAHAA HAA HAA

I too know how to pick zip codes and these are ARBITRARY, at best. I really hope you don't use these numbers in the real world because you will look as much of an idiot as you do now. Zip code boundaries are not consistent...didn't you learn in Statistics 101 that your sample has to be the same? As for business, Indy has a MUCH MORE developed suburban office market that Louisville, so again, your arguement falls on deaf ears. I feel bad, because you obviously spent time on finding this stuff only to have it immediately discredited.

OH...Muncie isn't in the CSA, and yes, I am proud of these cities.

Arbitrary, huh? And you still havent explained why more people voted in Louisville than in Indy. Or are you going to dispute those too? Perhaps not as many people in Indy can read the ballot? LOL.

This has nothing to do with statiistics pal. I took downtown Indy "supposedly the center of population" (your nice littel downtown hides the fact the rest of the city is wholed out) and I took downtown Louisville and compared them. Go to the site and type in zipe code radii, and at every level the two cities are similar. Your the dumbass thats been discredited Mr "planner."

Indy and Louisville are in the same tier...but thats about it. And this from one of your so called "suburbs" (why dont you guys include the whole fucking state of Indiana to prove what a "big city" you are) is pretty damn funny. It comes from Bloomington, which honestly despite the large size difference, is more like Louisville than Indy. HA, this shit cracks me up:

http://talk.assmotax.org/reply.php?topic=3341&forum=5&post=54470&quote=1


On 2004-05-28 20:53, Chowdog wrote:
No really, I hate everything about Indianapolis. It's ugly, pointless, idiotically laid out, stupid buildings, vapid apartment complexes, stinking river, dumbshit canal, malls full of fatasses sucking ice cream cones and chewing elephant ears while their thighs stick to the plastic benches, or make that tell-tale "I'm a fat-ass" sound as they waddle down to the next lemonade stand. I hate fucking Indianapolis because every gay bar I've ever been to there was full of hicks who look like straight people, only they want to screw guys...unbelievable. Indianapolis sucks because, entering from 37, everything smells like an automotive plant or sewage treatment. I hate Indianapolis ESPECIALLY because they've put another goddamned stoplight on 37 at that apartment complex called "The Lighthouse" (lighthouse to fucking where? Hell? fuck yes), where if one bitch pulls up, 80 cars on the highway have to come to a screeching halt--hey, let's waste 80 gallons of fuel so that one whore on a cell phone doesn't have a problem pulling out, ok? The only decent meal I've ever had in Indianapolis was at Bazbeau (sp?) Pizza, and that's pizza for piss sake. Indianapolis blows Satan's barbed cock because people always whine about parking there, even though every other building is a parking garage--if they can't pull up in front of it, they don't want to go--and that's understandable given that 600 pounds of waddling suburban fatass is a problem on a sidewalk with a load limit of, say, 300 pounds per square inch. Driving in Indianapolis is like having a handjob from a porcupine, more so because no one understands that the far left lane isn't really designed for those of you who want to pleasure jaunt around 465--and see what exactly? Take your Sunday drive up your ass, motherfucker! I detest that puke spot of a city because their news stations blow--I know some of you love the Pacers and love the Colts, and that's just fine, but they fucking bore me to death, and I don't think it's really news when they go to this 50 game final or that 28 game series, and actually win something-but then again, nothing more spectacular than drug murders and 'ho rapes is going on in Indy, so why bother actually talking about that? Drive-bys versus Pacers...hmm Anne Ryder, what shall we cover? Oh that fuck! Fucking retire already bitch, haven't you fucking retired that ice cream parlor face about ten times before? Take that dipshit Bob Gregory with you, for Christ's sake!

Anybody else?

^^OMG...its people like that that make the world full of ignorant assholes and corrupt our society. If he wants to say something bad about Indy why do it in such a belligerant way...that sickens me.

YES, ARBITRARY. Zip Code boundaries mean NOTHING. Are you really that dumb? There is no consistency to them...especially when trying to compare cities. So, this dumbass planner still is correct.

As for voting, hey, no dispute here. All I care is that the County voted Dem. You are the one who brought the election into this.

As for the MSA/CSA stats, do you think that the City is the one that makes this stuff up? Last I knew, it is done by the Feds. So, if you have anyone to blame, blame them. AND, while you are upset about this, it appears as if Louisville's area is bigger than Indy:
<from Emporis>
Louisville

Population
700,030 in city and 1,334,002 in metro

Area
997 km² (385 mi²)
Indianapolis

Population
784,242 in city and 1,939,349 in metro

Area
949 km² (366 mi²)

Looks like your area is ACTUALLY 19 sq miles BIGGER than Indy's, while we have over 600,000 MORE PEOPLE. Hmmm...very odd, could it be that you are blowing smoke, AGAIN?

Finally, I am a member of the Indianapolis Regional Transportation Council. (that is planning Indy's rail service) There are 85 Urban Areas that are monitored by the Feds. These UA's are broken into 3 "tiers."
The first includes NYC, Chicago, LA, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Philly, Boston, SF, etc. (you know, the BIG cities)
The second Tier includes these 26 cities:
Seattle, San Diego, Mlps-St. Paul, Denver, Baltimore, Portland, Providence, Virginia Beach, Las Vegas, Cincy, Cleveland, Columbus, Sacramento, San Jose, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Pittsburgh, San Antonio, Orlando, Riverside, KC, Buffalo, Indianapolis, OKC, Milwaukee, New Orleans, and St. Louis
The 3rd Tier includes:
Dayton, Grand Rapids, Birmingham, Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, LOUISVILLE, Salt Lake City, Memphis, Oakland, etc...

You have a very bad habit of inflating your city and it is weird. My current favorite is your claim that the Kaden tower is "surrounded" by 5-10 story buildings. One of your forum buddies even called you on it.

NEXT...

PS, will Louisville do something unique, please! "Keep Louisville Weird," for example. Austin (as you mention) already uses that.

Game, set, match to CWilson!! Note to self, never piss off a city planner! :runaway:

Looks like your area is ACTUALLY 19 sq miles BIGGER than Indy's, while we have over 600,000 MORE PEOPLE. Hmmm...very odd, could it be that you are blowing smoke, AGAIN?

From what I understand, that area is just the city proper and not the metro numbers. So for that area, Indy is not bigger by 600,000, but instead by only 84,000 for the given area numbers compared to Louisville.

Arbitrary, huh? And you still havent explained why more people voted in Louisville than in Indy. Or are you going to dispute those too? Perhaps not as many people in Indy can read the ballot? LOL.

This has nothing to do with statiistics pal. I took downtown Indy "supposedly the center of population" (your nice littel downtown hides the fact the rest of the city is wholed out) and I took downtown Louisville and compared them. Go to the site and type in zipe code radii, and at every level the two cities are similar. Your the dumbass thats been discredited Mr "planner."

Indy and Louisville are in the same tier...but thats about it. And this from one of your so called "suburbs" (why dont you guys include the whole fucking state of Indiana to prove what a "big city" you are) is pretty damn funny. It comes from Bloomington, which honestly despite the large size difference, is more like Louisville than Indy. HA, this shit cracks me up:

http://talk.assmotax.org/reply.php?topic=3341&forum=5&post=54470&quote=1
Jesus Christ, gych give it up. I love it when gych is losing an argument (this happens often), so he pulls some statistics out of his ass. This is by far the best statistic. Louisville has to be more important than Indianapolis because Louisville has more voters. News flash, Kerry won both cities by roughly the same margin.

Bloomington, which honestly despite the large size difference, is more like Louisville than Indy
How does Bloomington feel more like Louisville than it does Indianapolis? I could just pull some random shit out of my ass like "Indianapolis feels more like Toronto than Louisville", of course with nothing to back up my shit it is worth absolutely nothing.

As for some guy in Bloomington not liking Indy, who cares? I'm sure I could find someone in Lexington who feels the same way about Louisville?

Louisvile-Jefferson than Indy-Marion. Thats sad for Indy. I dont need to promote Louisville. IMO it is more of a big city than Indy bc its more cultured, despite all the metro numbers you post
Yeah, more people in Louisville voted for Bush than Indianapolis. As for much more cultured, well that's one of those things you pull out of your ass, just like most of your statements.

Oh yes, ladies and gentlemen, this is the same gych who claims that he's been to every neighborhood in both Indianapolis AND Saint Louis (according to him, Louisville is much better than both cities).

Here's another piece of gold that gych posted at SSP:

my general impression of the town is that it is too conservative, midwestern, live in the suburbs, SUV loving.
Conservative? Bush received more votes in Louisville. Ooops.
Midwestern? Wait, I thought that gych insists Louisville is part of the Midwest?
Live in the suburb? Granted this makes little sense, but I'll try to make the most out of it. I'll say that both cities sprawl just as much.
SUV loving? Wow, I guess you've counted all the SUV's in Indy, haven't you? I've seen a fair share of SUVs in both cities.

Another gem
Your jealously and ignorance is astounding. There is more culture in one neighborhood here than your entire pathetic cookie cutter metro. Indy will never be able to replicate the arts and culture here no matter how many more cookie cutter, redneck suburbs like Greenwood that it sprouts. Be gone loser. In Indy they get excited about Palomino. BLAH! Looks like you will have to come here for fine dining and arts!

You really are a dumbass to come and make comments like that. My point exactly....another snide remark from the village idiot. Come make snide remarks, and be certain I will blast your city for all that I (and MANY) others see it as.
More arts and culture in Louisville? Proof it.

The best way I can describe it is Louisville is like a huge Bloomington, IN, very cultured, unique, and independent.
Yeah, I felt the same way when I walked around downtown Louisville and went to Fourth Street Live! BTW - The TGI Friday's there is just excellent. It was almost as good as the Hard Rock Cafe.

From what I understand, that area is just the city proper and not the metro numbers. So for that area, Indy is not bigger by 600,000, but instead by only 84,000 for the given area numbers compared to Louisville.


You know, you could be right, either way, density appears to be at most equal, but at least tipped towards Indy.

Hey gych...don't think you're going to win this one. A little tip for next time, facts, not fiction, tend to support arguments. Nice retort Naptown.

You know, you could be right, either way, density appears to be at most equal, but at least tipped towards Indy.

You guys really dont get my point. As far as CITY proper goes, the two are almost identical. You are right, Cwilson, the "city" of Louisville has 700k in 385 square miles whereas the "city" of Indy has 784k in 366 sq. miles. We both know damn well most of these "cities" include suburbs in their numbers. And yes, I know the Feds determine metro, and YES, Indy has more square miles in their metro. Also, the population stats from Emporis are CSAs, not MSAs.

My other main point is that the CSA for Indy includes places like Anderson which have abolutely nothing to do with Indy or its size or fee other than indicating they share a common economic area. The same goes with including Elizabethtown for Louisville.

The difference in the metro lies in that fact that Indy has Carmel, Fishers, etc (Hamilton County is the big difference here), and Louisville doesnt. So if you think that having Carmel and Fishers makes Indy a much bigger city, that is your opinion. When I lived in Indy, I never had a reason to go there nor did I think it contributed to the feel of the size of the CITY (meaning old, urban hoods, walkable areas, good bus transit, and local bars and restuarants and arts). In the same way, I never go to Louisville's Oldham County burbs and if you read my posts I am quite scared that office parks and shopping centers they are developing there will contribute more to louisville's sprawl and pull business out of Jefferson Co.

As far as actual city density and number of city neighborhoods, they are identical. The culture thing is my opinion, and many others share it. You can think what you want about Indy.

The only reason I was drawn into this again is an ignorant forumer occused me of being racist. I wont tolerate that bullshit name calling. Once again, I really do like Indy, I think it is a progressive city, just not one for me. The purpose of posting the Bloomington person's comment was only to piss off Cwilson :) You are right that many people in Lexington or Frankfort say the same stuff about Louisville.

Gych, I love how you "know all." I am from Anderson, I am up there once a week. The City is so tied to Indy it isn't funny. Until the last census, Anderson and its surrounding metro (well over 100,000) were included in Indy's metro (use to be the nine-county metro with Madison). The only reason it isn't now is because Anderson petitioned the federal government for its own designation (full page article in the Anderson Hearld-Bulletin when this happened.) They did this because of the economic issues facing that area. They felt that if the City of Anderson was always grouped with Indy, it would loose its identity and ability to actively attract jobs. That is why Indy's metro population didn't appear to grow as fast this past census because the 3rd largest county (Madison) was removed. If Madison were included in the metro like the last census, Metro Indy would be at 1.8 million. So please, let that argument go. Complain all you want. It reiterates the "sphere of influence" pic that Indy has more land area tied to its core.


As for not going to Carmel, dude, again, you don't know what you are talking about. Carmel has a lot to offer the Indy metro. Have you ever driven up Meridian through Carmel and noticed all of the office towers? Or maybe Keystone Ave? Trust me, ask the thousands of people who work there if Carmel is an important player in the region. You are just an idiot making ridiculous claims! I don't go there all the time, but there are retail stores there not found here in the City, so yes, I occasionally make the drive to Carmel. Now, places like Avon or Brownsburg, no, I don't visit. There are many many many more suburban communities in the region besides Carmel and Fishers. Your limited knowledge of the region only offers you the opportunity to talk about the 2 you know. You lived here for 2 mos until you were kicked to the curb, that doesn't mean you know a lot about this region. Now, be gone...

MSA condo interest builds
With sales up, developer hopes to begin site work in January

Two months after unveiling a new name, new floor plans and a new sales center for their development, the team in charge of building condominiums on the former Market Square Arena site is reporting more success than the first time around.

Reservations have been taken for two-thirds of the units that need to be sold before the developer can fund One Market Square, real estate agent Kurt Flock told the Metropolitan Development Commission Dec. 7. Market Square Partners is considering four lenders, all of which have similar presale requirements.

In real numbers, 50 to 60 of the first 31-story tower’s 208 residences have been reserved, said Richard Shields, who is overseeing the project for Chicago-based Mesa Development LLC.

Shields also told the MDC of plans to begin taking reservations in late January or early February for two midrise buildings on the west side of the Market Square site. Soon, the group will also start more aggressively marketing units on the top four floors of the tower, the drawings for which are just now being finalized.

Developers hope to begin construction on the midrise buildings at the same time as the tower, with the 60 units in the three-story buildings being completed in the first quarter of 2007, a year earlier than the first high-rise units. Earlier plans called for midrise buildings to be constructed after the tower.

The total cost for both phases of One Market Square, which includes twin, 31-story condo towers, could reach $288 million, Shields said. When Market Square Partners was first selected in February 2003 to redevelop the site, the esti- mate for a similar design was $140 million.

Earlier designs for the project were scrapped when months of marketing produced only 41 sales. Market Square Partners then cut ties with Chicago-based Consoer Townsend Envirodyne Engineers Inc. and hired Mesa to head up a redesign.

Changes from the initial plan include more floor plans, a pricing structure that reflects the different views from the east and west sides of the tower, underground parking for the midrise buildings, and a glass-enclosed swimming pool on a fifthfloor terrace.

Loft-style condos in the midrise buildings will range from 750 square feet to about 1,000 square feet, Shields said. Located throughout the buildings will be 27 units earmarked as affordable housing, which will sell for about $135,000 to $160,000. They will be identical to the market-rate units in the midrise, but may have less expensive appointments, such as appliances or floor coverings, he said.

Next month, Flock Real Estate Group, which is marketing the condos at One Market Square, will begin converting reservations, which require a $5,000 refundable deposit, into contracts with a non-refundable down payment. Contracts with buyers will be ready to sign when the project’s construction drawings and designs have been approved by the city’s Department of Metropolitan Development, which is reviewing them now.

The project’s lenders require about 40 percent of the dollar amount of all units to be sold before financing can be secured, Shields told the MDC. Those requirements will be met when 78 to 84 of the units have been sold, depending on how expensive those units are.

Based on Mesa’s experience at its other high-rise condo projects in Chicago and elsewhere, about 80 percent of those who make reservations end up signing contracts. However, other buyers typically sign on when floor plans, designs and finishes have been finalized, he said.

“It appears the momentum is very good,” said Terry Sweeney, director of real estate for Indianapolis Downtown Inc. “The real proof will come when they convert those reservations to contracts.”

In general, condos at the higher end of the price range at One Market Square have been reserved more quickly than those at the lower end, Shields said. That’s not surprising considering purchasers are those who can afford to make a down payment about two years before their condos will be ready to move into.

Flock said his firm is gearing up for a “mini-relaunch” of One Market Square’s marketing efforts after the Super Bowl, as weekend attendance at the sales center has dropped since the start of the football and holiday seasons.

By that time, developers expect wouldbe buyers will begin seeing activity on the Market Square site, which has been used as a parking lot since the arena was demolished in 2001. Market Square Partners plans to file plans paving the way for site work to begin sometime in January, Shields said.

Based on Market Square Partners’ report to the MDC, work may be closer to beginning than at any time in the nearly three years since the developers were picked from six bidders vying for the site. Although the main partners of the development team–Columbus, Ohio-based Smoot Construction and locally based Shrewsberry & Associates–haven’t changed, Massachusetts-based developer Diamond & Co. and CTE both have left the project.

CTE in April filed a $3.2 million mechanic’s lien against the project, seeking money the company said it was owed for services performed on the site. That lien was released by CTE in October. Market Square Partners wouldn’t disclose how much was paid to settle the lien.

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2005/12/12/3/Img/Pc0030500.jpg

That is awesome! I have been wondering what the progress was on this project. Site prep in January! If this does get built, what an addition to the skyline. I believe this will jumpstart a mid-to-high rise residential building boom in downtown. Just think, this building, the proposed mixed used high-rise on washington and virginia ave, a possible 1000 room hotel for the convention center, as well as maybe a new courthouse building, and let's not forget the new stadium. I can't wait 5-10 years to see what the skyline will look like! Plus, hopefully this mass transit system gets off the ground. Amazing. That's funny that they hope to intensify marketing AFTER the super bowl. Just goes to show you how Colts-crazy this city is!

Gych, I love how you "know all." I am from Anderson, I am up there once a week. The City is so tied to Indy it isn't funny. Until the last census, Anderson and its surrounding metro (well over 100,000) were included in Indy's metro (use to be the nine-county metro with Madison). The only reason it isn't now is because Anderson petitioned the federal government for its own designation (full page article in the Anderson Hearld-Bulletin when this happened.) They did this because of the economic issues facing that area. They felt that if the City of Anderson was always grouped with Indy, it would loose its identity and ability to actively attract jobs. That is why Indy's metro population didn't appear to grow as fast this past census because the 3rd largest county (Madison) was removed. If Madison were included in the metro like the last census, Metro Indy would be at 1.8 million. So please, let that argument go. Complain all you want. It reiterates the "sphere of influence" pic that Indy has more land area tied to its core.


As for not going to Carmel, dude, again, you don't know what you are talking about. Carmel has a lot to offer the Indy metro. Have you ever driven up Meridian through Carmel and noticed all of the office towers? Or maybe Keystone Ave? Trust me, ask the thousands of people who work there if Carmel is an important player in the region. You are just an idiot making ridiculous claims! I don't go there all the time, but there are retail stores there not found here in the City, so yes, I occasionally make the drive to Carmel. Now, places like Avon or Brownsburg, no, I don't visit. There are many many many more suburban communities in the region besides Carmel and Fishers. Your limited knowledge of the region only offers you the opportunity to talk about the 2 you know. You lived here for 2 mos until you were kicked to the curb, that doesn't mean you know a lot about this region. Now, be gone...

Cwilson, I am well aware of everything in Hamilton County. It is a part of Indy just like Crestwood and LaGrange are apart of Louisville. I have also spent a lot of time at ball State, and NO ONE IN FREAKING MUNCIE considers themselves part of Indy. I dont care if they are part of the metro or not. Sure, its ties to Indy for sports, shopping, etc, but its its own deal.


I have driven up 31 numerous times on the way to South bend and could name 90% of the subdivisions up there bc I have driven around many of them. Office towers on 31? What the fuck are you smoking. Unless you consider 5 story suburban office parks towers, I dont know what you mean. Besides Keystone at the Crossing, I would not consider anything on the north side a "tower." I cant think of one building on that corridor over 10 stories.


ALSO there is nothing in Carmel worth going to for an urban dweller. I am glad you find unique and great stuff there, but i cant think of one unique store or anything that would make me drive to carmel if I lived in downtown Indy. Dude Keystone at the Crossing and Fashion Mall are in Marion Co, so again, I am not sure what you are talking about. And Yes, I would make a quick trip there occasionally with the sole purpose of going to Saks. I lived in Broad Ripple, so if anything, I know the North side better than anything. I am aware of every measly Indy suburb, and the only extra thing they offer are more people, strip malls, and Walmarts. This goies for the suburbs of Louisville or any other major American city. You think when I lived in Chicago I ever went to the suburbs? Hell no. Suburbs and metro population does not make a city better. Do you even know what a freaking city is? There is only a small area of "Indy" that I would classify as "city." Same with louisville.

Once again, if you want to talk about cities, I'll talk all day. I've never seen someone get so excited about exurbs as you. I never said Carmel wasnt part of Indy. Hell, it is damn continous development into Marion Co. What I will say though is that Carmel, besides bringing jobs, doesnt do a damn thing for Indy, and if its not careful, could prove detrimental to the actual CITY if it becomes too trendy to move there and open businesses there. You act like Indy is such a big city, its so funny. I could explore the entire city in one day dude, so yes, especially after living there for four months, I have seen about everything worth seeing. Why? I am interested in the shit. I can drive around for hours looking at development and stuff.

I dont know why you are always at my throat. How about i come up to Indy and show you what I know. I could maybe even show you some stuff youve never seen, and vice versa. Then you can come down here and Ill show you some new stuff. But all this name calling is really getting old.

This is getting old....wish there was useful info and updates being posted...

This is getting old....wish there was useful info and updates being posted...
I think we've all asked Gych to leave... Why not join the club?

Heres more for ya moochie. Not saying I agree with all this, and I think the New Yorker corrected them a bit, but it is a bit funny. I do believe it supports my point (yes it is subjective) that Indy is extremely conservative :)

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/places/indianapolis.html

Full list of liberal and liberal unfriendly cities (yes its subjective but a lot of people really feel this way).


One of the most conservative, Republican places in America. Hamilton County, which is directly north of Indianapolis, is notorious for being the most Republican county in the U.S. In Indianapolis,then-mayor Richard Lugar(1974) rammed Uni-Gov through the state legislature, which all but destroyed the Democrat Party in Marion County. No Democrat, even a conservative one, has been elected mayor since. Home of The Indianapolis Star, perhaps the most conservative, pro- business newspaper in America. Progressives, land here at your peril!
...and another comment...

I take issue with this: Boone County, directly northwest of Indianapolis, has got to be more Republican. Much of the county is rural, and resembles something out of deliverance. Out there, the racism and and homophobia can be cut with a knife. The town in the southeast corner of the county, Zionsville, features the Midwest's only Rolls Royce dealership. When I was in the Zionsville school system, there was not a single black student in grades K-12. The racism there, while being noticeable, takes on a mix of economic and social motivations. The only black inhabitants are likely to be Indianapolis Colts, and are grudgingly accepted because they have money. So the Indianapolis metropolitan area is strongly conservative. If you happen to be liberal and happen to be in the area, check out the Broad Ripple neighborhood. I'm sorry to say, that's as liberal as Indiana gets.

...and another comment...

Most of the affluent in Indianapolis fled to the outlying counties following the institution of busing and Unigov, to avoid higher taxes and a twisted school system. Some of the very rich live in their own enclaves in the city, send their kids to private schools, and have as little to do with the community as possible outside of their country clubs, but Hamilton, Hendricks, Johnson, and Morgan Counties have experienced serious booms since the early 1970s. Boone County has not grown as much, because the public school system has a really bad reputation and it is considered to put more emphasis on sports than on academics. There are no private schools there and individuality is viewed as a threat to everyone. Racism in central Indiana is still quite rampant, so bad that every county is alleged to be a Klan outpost at one time or another. Gays and lesbians are disliked in Indianapolis, and there isn't even a decent gay bar. Most flee to a few safe neighborhoods (for them) in Indy or move to Bloomington.

I lived in Broad Ripple for 6 years, and if that's as good as it gets, I'm glad I'm gone. Yes, a lot of kids hang out there and there are a lot of music clubs and art galleries, BUT the police harass everyone who doesn't look like they are in the neighborhood to spend lots of money. They hassle young people all the time. I used to walk to and from work, and one cop in particular assumed this meant that I was a prostitute. In my opinion, the neighborhood is just a playground for bored kids from outlying suburbs, frat boys from Butler University, and rich urbanites -- none of whom actually live in Broad Ripple or care about the community -- witness the tendency to drive over people's lawns and break bottles on the sidewalk at 4 AM. They simply go there to party, and there are so few intellectuals frequenting the place these days that the number of bookstores dwindles every year.

...and another comment...

If you are a sports fan, good ol' conservative, Republican, Christian, pro-business, anti-worker India-no place is the place for you! We have the loser professionals the Colts and the Pacers; we recently coughed-up $55 million to steal the NCAA headquarters from Kansas City, too! The NCAA HQ will bring us a whopping 150- 200 jobs at $7 an hour. WOW!

Agnostics and atheists---move to "Naptown" at your peril! The ratio of churches to other buildings here is about 1:2--no kidding. And of course, they all want to be tax-free!

Yes, Indianapolis---the place where free thinking is a foreign language!

...and another comment...

I am very intrigued by the comments that I read about Indianapolis being a liberal unfriendly place. Yes the Mayor is a Republican ( But in the last Gov. race failed to even carry the township he lives in and was well thrashed by Democrat Frank O'Bannon). Yet for the past 34 Years we have had a Democrat represent us in congress, Andy Jacobs 32 years and Julia Carson about to finish her inaugural session of congress ( By the way she is an Afro-American Woman, so the place can't be too conservative) and be re-elected to a second term. The Gov. of Indiana in general for the past 3 terms has been a Democrat. While I will admit that the Indianapolis Star is quite conservative, none with more than a high school education reads it for anything other than sports news ( GO Knicks).as a final comment Being a Liberal originally from New Jersey, who Thinks Bill Bradley, Mario Cuomo, JFK, and LBJ were some of the greatest politicians of our modern era, I have found Indy to be quite a nice place ( Oh by the way we have the greatest number of interracial marriages in America, and the 3rd highest gay population in the nation behind San Francisco and New York - so while their may be racism and homophobia it's not as rampart as you would be led to believe). As a final note anyone who thinks a place is liberal unfriendly needs to go there and get in the damn trenches and change things, cowering together as pockets of intelligencia while not make things better Its time to make Liberal a household compliment again.

...and another comment...

I'd like to know where this defender of Indianapolis gets the data posited. "3rd highest gay population"??? Is that percentage or just sheer numbers?? I think gays who live in a lot more viable metropolitan areas (LA, Seattle, South Beach) will take exception to this comment blithely tossed about with no supporting evidence. Well, at least this gay person from DC does.

...and another comment...

Well now, Being a transplanted New Yorker and a resident of Hamilton County for the last 9 years I've got a few things to say. 1. I'm a Democrat (one of 3 in the county well, Kidding there) 2: Christian? There are 5 Synagogues just in the North Side of Indy..(Yes..I can name them) our population is approx 15% Jewish. 3: Gay bashing? I'm not too sure. The gay community claims to have 70,000 gay voters in Marion (Indianapolis) county alone. Walled communities and enclaves? Yes! So what? We (my wife and I) have worked for a long time in 'wage earner' careers, invested our money carefully and chose to live in Hamilton county when we were transferred here. We work in Indy and although we were formerly librerals have become ultra conservative Democrats (remember 1 of 3 in the county) We have to work (and very hard) with 'Affirmative Action' and don't want to have to put up with the so-called "Multi-ethnic" culture in our neighborhoods. No boom boxes, no cars with blacked out windows and kickers. I remember when we first graduated from college and were flaming liberals. How times change. Don't hate us, we were victims and we'll never forget.

...and another comment...

Indianapolis .... 3rd largest gay population in US .... ha haaa get real... I used to live there .... very backward and conservative compared to Louisville, Ky. 110 miles south of Indy., where I now live .... It's still "IndianaNOplace" The 'cornfield' with lights...;)

...and another comment...

I have lived in Indy for over 20 years, and am a staunch intellectual conservative. I cannot express my joy at the fact that my home city is on the liberal-unfriendly list, but I have to disagree. Indiana has a Democratic governor, and now a Democratic senator. Indianapolis Representatives Andrew Jacobs and Julia Carson are about as disgustingly liberal as you can get; Carson herself is barely literate in standard English, and I have yet to figure out what motivates her decision-making process if not welfare perpetuation, affirmative action, and take-everything-you-can-from-those-who-work-for-it tax and spend liberalism. Indianapolis has a lot of money, and it has nowhere near the welfare problems some places do. We have about one murder every other day, almost all in the inner city, and there are plenty of places for gay men to meet (mostly in the suburbs).

Given the opportunities here, the cost of living (cigs are still around $2.00/pack!), the cleanliness, and the overall persona of this city, I would live no other place. I have been to every state but Alaska, and have traveled extensively throughout large cities and small towns. I know from where I speak. Indianapolis is wonderful!

Err.. Gych? Please don't post any more entirely irrelevant posts. I believe we've all asked you to leave, and I'll ask again. Please go away and stop gumming up our thread.

What else do we have to do? Do we have to get the mods involved?

Yeah, and I saw "Louisville Sucks" written in a bathroom stall once so it must be true! Those posts not only don't prove anything, but they are 5 or 6 years old. I am in the field of sport administration and I would love to work at NCAA headquarters because they definitely don't pay $7 an hour. (Whoever posted that was an idiot!) I respect your opinion and the opinions of the people who posted those comments, but they are just "opinions".

And before I go, I visited the new Metropolis Center in Plainfield today and was impressed. It definitely puts you in the holiday spirit and I love the Rave Motion Pictures Cinema. Very good place to catch a flick.

Cwilson, I am well aware of everything in Hamilton County. It is a part of Indy just like Crestwood and LaGrange are apart of Louisville. I have also spent a lot of time at ball State, and NO ONE IN FREAKING MUNCIE considers themselves part of Indy. I dont care if they are part of the metro or not. Sure, its ties to Indy for sports, shopping, etc, but its its own deal.


I have driven up 31 numerous times on the way to South bend and could name 90% of the subdivisions up there bc I have driven around many of them. Office towers on 31? What the fuck are you smoking. Unless you consider 5 story suburban office parks towers, I dont know what you mean. Besides Keystone at the Crossing, I would not consider anything on the north side a "tower." I cant think of one building on that corridor over 10 stories.


ALSO there is nothing in Carmel worth going to for an urban dweller. I am glad you find unique and great stuff there, but i cant think of one unique store or anything that would make me drive to carmel if I lived in downtown Indy. Dude Keystone at the Crossing and Fashion Mall are in Marion Co, so again, I am not sure what you are talking about. And Yes, I would make a quick trip there occasionally with the sole purpose of going to Saks. I lived in Broad Ripple, so if anything, I know the North side better than anything. I am aware of every measly Indy suburb, and the only extra thing they offer are more people, strip malls, and Walmarts. This goies for the suburbs of Louisville or any other major American city. You think when I lived in Chicago I ever went to the suburbs? Hell no. Suburbs and metro population does not make a city better. Do you even know what a freaking city is? There is only a small area of "Indy" that I would classify as "city." Same with louisville.

Once again, if you want to talk about cities, I'll talk all day. I've never seen someone get so excited about exurbs as you. I never said Carmel wasnt part of Indy. Hell, it is damn continous development into Marion Co. What I will say though is that Carmel, besides bringing jobs, doesnt do a damn thing for Indy, and if its not careful, could prove detrimental to the actual CITY if it becomes too trendy to move there and open businesses there. You act like Indy is such a big city, its so funny. I could explore the entire city in one day dude, so yes, especially after living there for four months, I have seen about everything worth seeing. Why? I am interested in the shit. I can drive around for hours looking at development and stuff.

I dont know why you are always at my throat. How about i come up to Indy and show you what I know. I could maybe even show you some stuff youve never seen, and vice versa. Then you can come down here and Ill show you some new stuff. But all this name calling is really getting old.

its official, you are a tool! I never mentioned Muncie, rather Anderson, because you mentioned Anderson. This is common with you. Someone refutes your post, so you go on about something elese irrelivent! I agree that Muncie is probably less tied to Indy, but you would be surprised how many people commute from Muncie to Indy every day. It is only 40 mins.

You are an ABOLUTE IDIOT if you think that Carmel doesn't provide a lot to this City. There are a number of things in Carmel, not keystone, that are unique. Hmmm....I have lived in the metro 30 years to your 2 mos, I think I know a little bit more about the area. There are countless TOWERS in the Carmel area (the second highest concentration of office space in the metro).

I don't get on the Looserville (only because you live there) board and claim to know the ins and outs of your area like you do here, so until you actually know, go away and kindly piss off.

OH.. That website is a joke. If you have to use that to hurt a city, you are grabbing at straw. Now, go away.

Great news about MSA. I was at the MDC hearing when they were giving this info. I would suspect that work probably won't start until spring. This article seems a little too optimistic as various approvals haven't occured yet.

I agree about the skyline really changing. One Market Sq, The "Pennsylvania Hotel and Residences," The Stadium, possible new Courthouse, and the remaining infill opportunities are changing our city so much.

GO COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like gych forgot to read these two:
I am very intrigued by the comments that I read about Indianapolis being a liberal unfriendly place. Yes the Mayor is a Republican ( But in the last Gov. race failed to even carry the township he lives in and was well thrashed by Democrat Frank O'Bannon). Yet for the past 34 Years we have had a Democrat represent us in congress, Andy Jacobs 32 years and Julia Carson about to finish her inaugural session of congress ( By the way she is an Afro-American Woman, so the place can't be too conservative) and be re-elected to a second term. The Gov. of Indiana in general for the past 3 terms has been a Democrat. While I will admit that the Indianapolis Star is quite conservative, none with more than a high school education reads it for anything other than sports news ( GO Knicks).as a final comment Being a Liberal originally from New Jersey, who Thinks Bill Bradley, Mario Cuomo, JFK, and LBJ were some of the greatest politicians of our modern era, I have found Indy to be quite a nice place ( Oh by the way we have the greatest number of interracial marriages in America, and the 3rd highest gay population in the nation behind San Francisco and New York - so while their may be racism and homophobia it's not as rampart as you would be led to believe). As a final note anyone who thinks a place is liberal unfriendly needs to go there and get in the damn trenches and change things, cowering together as pockets of intelligencia while not make things better Its time to make Liberal a household compliment again.

I am very intrigued by the comments that I read about Indianapolis being a liberal unfriendly place. Yes the Mayor is a Republican ( But in the last Gov. race failed to even carry the township he lives in and was well thrashed by Democrat Frank O'Bannon). Yet for the past 34 Years we have had a Democrat represent us in congress, Andy Jacobs 32 years and Julia Carson about to finish her inaugural session of congress ( By the way she is an Afro-American Woman, so the place can't be too conservative) and be re-elected to a second term. The Gov. of Indiana in general for the past 3 terms has been a Democrat. While I will admit that the Indianapolis Star is quite conservative, none with more than a high school education reads it for anything other than sports news ( GO Knicks).as a final comment Being a Liberal originally from New Jersey, who Thinks Bill Bradley, Mario Cuomo, JFK, and LBJ were some of the greatest politicians of our modern era, I have found Indy to be quite a nice place ( Oh by the way we have the greatest number of interracial marriages in America, and the 3rd highest gay population in the nation behind San Francisco and New York - so while their may be racism and homophobia it's not as rampart as you would be led to believe). As a final note anyone who thinks a place is liberal unfriendly needs to go there and get in the damn trenches and change things, cowering together as pockets of intelligencia while not make things better Its time to make Liberal a household compliment again.

Honestly, this sounds like it was written by gych himself.
Indianapolis .... 3rd largest gay population in US .... ha haaa get real... I used to live there .... very backward and conservative compared to Louisville, Ky. 110 miles south of Indy., where I now live .... It's still "IndianaNOplace" The 'cornfield' with lights...

Both Jefferson and Marion went 50-49-1 for Kerry. The counties surrounding Louisville went around 70% for Bush, counties surrounding Indy went around 75%. Not too big of a difference.

BTW - Great news on MSA. I'm working on making a chart to track these developments.

Naptown, that is GYCH...easy! I swear, for some one "who likes Indy, but it isn't for me," he certainly hates it!

ha, i didnt write any of that, its all on the web. i havr to get a rise out of corey somehow, lol. no i really dont hate indy, i grew up an hour away from there, have always liked the colts (although ive grown to like college sports) and I am interested in indy and other regional development. If the colts take it down, you can flat guarntee my butt will be in downtown Indy celebrating.

I lived there like may others in Indiana, and it wasnt for me, even though I think downtown Indy is really nice.

With that being said (as someone said before), any development in the Indy-Louisville-Cincy region is good for the region. That means we can actually compete with the big boomtowns further south and west and that we arent flyover country like they think of us up east.

Yeah, and I saw "Louisville Sucks" written in a bathroom stall once so it must be true! Those posts not only don't prove anything, but they are 5 or 6 years old. I am in the field of sport administration and I would love to work at NCAA headquarters because they definitely don't pay $7 an hour. (Whoever posted that was an idiot!) I respect your opinion and the opinions of the people who posted those comments, but they are just "opinions".

Yeah, i loved that BS about jobs at the NCAA HQ paying $7 an hour. Its really not an opinion, just a flat out lie. The best part of the comment though was the "loser Colts." :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

And before I go, I visited the new Metropolis Center in Plainfield today and was impressed. It definitely puts you in the holiday spirit and I love the Rave Motion Pictures Cinema. Very good place to catch a flick.

I enjoy Rave Cinemas as well there a good company. Its nice every once in a while but in my small hometown I can see a movie for like 7 dollars. Small buisnesses have their advantages? Form what I hear this is insanly cheap...what does it cost you guys to see a movie on avergae?

When I first read about the new Rave Cinema at Metropolis I thought it would easily cost up to $12, but it's a very reasonable $8. That's as cheap or cheaper than most.

Moochie, thanks for asking. No I was not able to make it to the transit open house. Unfortunately I had a previous engagement planned that I had forgotten about.

Did anyone else have the opportunity to go?

It’s great to hear that units at One Market Square selling well! I get so tired of hearing people make the comment that high-rise residential can't work in Indianapolis. I even heard this comment from an executive at one of the companies that submitted a proposal for the MSA site redevelopment.

On that same note, if I see one more wood-framed three story residential building or townhouse go up on the east side of downtown, I am going to scream. I am talking about the buildings built by City Centre Associates and Ryland’s Firehouse Square townhouses. These developments aren’t bad, they are just inappropriate so close to the downtown core. In general, buildings within the mile-square should be steel-framed, vertically oriented structures with first floor retail. These buildings sprawl across building sites that are large enough for two or three taller mixed-use structures. These types of buildings would actually bring some life to the street.

P.S. I apologize in advance, to anyone that actually lives in one of these buildings. They are really quite nice! I just think they should be located somewhere else.

A couple other thoughts on the One Market Square development…

1. If a second tower is built, it should be built diagonally across the street from the first tower. This arrangement would have a better effect on the skyline and provide a less obstructed view for residents living on the south side of the first tower and the north side of the second tower. The land that I am talking about is owned by the same developer.

http://static.flickr.com/20/70622470_ad02e1adde_o.jpg

2. The street and sidewalk widths and streetscaping on Market Street should be unified and improved from the Statehouse to East Street. The OMS developer is planning sidewalks that are too wide, have diagonal parking, and utilize cobra-headed lampposts. We shouldn’t waist the city’s most dramatic terminating vista on inconsistent streetscaping. This street segment should have parallel parking, historic light standards, matching street trees and sidewalk treatments.

http://static.flickr.com/20/70619997_697a2bee17_o.jpg

Fire House Square is HORRIBLE and should be burned to the ground! There, I said it!. It was one of the first "major" (I use this lightly considering its density) new residential projects and I am sure a huge "test" for the market. The concept is nice, but even with the 3 new Kosene developments around it, is very out of place in terms of density. And those "front yards" are an absolute waste of space. At a minimum the structures should have been built with the front door at the sidewalk and a "back yard" incorporated that would not face traffic. DUMB DUMB DUMB.

Here's a pic of Firehouse Square I took from the Library:
http://www.pbase.com/rclick/image/35023943.jpg
Firehouse Square is a disaster because it's a gated community, which kills pedestrian traffic in an area that could use it. Think about how much more successfull the project would be if it wasn't gated, residents and pedestrians could easily walk to the library, Lockerbie, and the City Market. Also, throw in some street retail at the base of the building and maybe a garden, and the project would be ten times better.

It’s great to hear that units at One Market Square selling well! I get so tired of hearing people make the comment that high-rise residential can't work in Indianapolis. I even heard this comment from an executive at one of the companies that submitted a proposal for the MSA site redevelopment.

On that same note, if I see one more wood-framed three story residential building or townhouse go up on the east side of downtown, I am going to scream. I am talking about the buildings built by City Centre Associates and Ryland’s Firehouse Square townhouses. These developments aren’t bad, they are just inappropriate so close to the downtown core. In general, buildings within the mile-square should be steel-framed, vertically oriented structures with first floor retail. These buildings sprawl across building sites that are large enough for two or three taller mixed-use structures. These types of buildings would actually bring some life to the street.

P.S. I apologize in advance, to anyone that actually lives in one of these buildings. They are really quite nice! I just think they should be located somewhere else.

I agree, those projects, especially firehouse square, are not ideal for their location. I still cringe every time I drive past firehouse square. But I guess when those projects were proposed/approved, those were the only types of projects planners thought would work in downtown Indy. Hopefully we'll see more higher density development with street level retail now.

Is it possible for us to string together more than two or three blocks of consistent streetscape?

http://static.flickr.com/34/73053805_f2c5b361c0_o.jpg

MARKET STREET – Terminating Vista

Just imagine how beautiful it would be if the city installed the double headed Union Metal light standard (pictured above) from East Street to the Statehouse on Market Street. The Soldiers and Sailors Monument and the Statehouse Dome already make such a gorgeous terminating vista when viewed from East Market Street.

WASHINGTON STREET – Indiana’s Main Street

The streetscape on Washington Street should reflect the importance of this thoroughfare. Washington Street is 120 feet wide from one side to the other. This street should be turned back into a two-way and be given a boulevard treatment. It is wide enough to accommodate two parking lanes, two travel lanes in each direction, two bike lanes two 20 foot sidewalks and a center median. Three rows of the Union Metal light standards and three rows of street trees could also be used.

In my mind, these are the types of things that make downtowns more attractive places to live and work. Those of you that have been in Chicago in the past few years know the difference a good streetscape project can have for the look and feel of a street. Chicago has used a close variant of the standard pictured above in some of its recent streetscape projects.

^ That actually sounds like a kinda cool streetscape plan, if anything like that would ever come to happen on Washington.

This was sent tyo me via email. Of course I am not interested in buying one as I am a commoner, I just wanted to go to the open house.



"Our records indicate you previously expressed interest in One Market Square, downtown's first true, new, luxury high-rise development. When completed the first phase of this project will include 208 residences in a sleek, new, 31 story tower and 60 additional urban loft-style residences in two mid-rise buildings. The tower features many exclusive amenities, including a 20' x 60' indoor pool, secured parking, a 2,000 square foot fitness center, additional storage and a 24-hour staffed lobby. There will be over 34,000 square feet of restaurant and retail shops developed as part of the project, making life at One Market Square very convenient.


The first tower features 29 different floor plans priced from the low $200,000's to over $1.7 million. We are currently pre-selling residences in anticipation of a ground breaking next Spring. You can view floor plans and general pricing information by visiting our sales model at 251 E. Ohio Street, Ste. 150 or on-line at http://www.OneMarketSquare.com.


Please let us know if you would like to schedule an appointment to visit the sales center, or if you would like us to contact you with additional information regarding this exciting project.


Thanks"

Here's a pic of Firehouse Square I took from the Library:
http://www.pbase.com/rclick/image/35023943.jpg
Firehouse Square is a disaster because it's a gated community, which kills pedestrian traffic in an area that could use it. Think about how much more successfull the project would be if it wasn't gated, residents and pedestrians could easily walk to the library, Lockerbie, and the City Market. Also, throw in some street retail at the base of the building and maybe a garden, and the project would be ten times better.


WTF??? What is that...it is fugly. It looks like something out a dystopian story.

WTF??? What is that...it is fugly. It looks like something out a dystopian story.
It's honestly not that bad. It's just out of place. The brickwork is unimaginative, and the yards are useless, but if you're walking down the street next to them and looking at the skyscrapers in the near background, the effect is nice.

Those would be good just a little further east, perhaps in some of the blighted areas in the Holy Cross neighborhood, on Market street or Ohio.

Cafe Patachou to open in new Simon HQ

Local restaurateur Martha Hoover will open up her fourth Cafe Patachou location in Simon Property Group Inc.'s headquarters, under construction at the corner of Washington Street and Capitol Avenue downtown.

Called Cafe Patachou on the Park, the 3,000-square-foot restaurant will have indoor seating as well as outside seating on the south side of Simon's building, which faces Capitol Commons park.

The restaurant will feature Cafe Patachou's usual breakfast and lunch offerings, plus items specific to the downtown location. The restaurant's downtown catering will also be handled from the site, Hoover said.

"Our part of the building will be interesting and unique--it will very much have it's own identity," said Hoover, adding it will have entrances from both the street and from inside Simon's 13-story office building.

Cafe Patachou on the Park will be open for breakfast and lunch during the week as well as on weekends to capitalize on traffic from nearby hotels, the convention center and football stadium, Hoover said.

Earlier this year, local real estate brokers said Starbucks and California-based Paradise Bakery and Cafe also had been in the running for the Simon building.

Hoover called Simon's selection of Cafe Patachou to occupy the space "a vote of confidence in the independents." No other restaurants are planned for the building.

Hoover also operates cafes at 49th and Pennsylvania, at River Crossing and at 126th and Gray Road in Carmel.

Simon's headquarters is scheduled to be finished in fall 2006, but Hoover said the company has indicated her space may be ready as soon as July.

Simon officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

http://64.255.242.145/ibjdaily/html/daily_story_121305br.html

Yes! I love Patachou! I've had more than one girlfriend who worked there...

Can someone post a generalization of how the skyline will evolve by 2010? And will there be more street level low rises, like those around Circle Centre and the Wholesale District?

Transit news:

I just got back from the RTA meeting (regional transportation authority) and I can only give a bit of info due to "closed" meeting, but look for this to become a very big issue in the late spring early summer. Mayor Peterson was at today's meeting and "we" are carefully plotting our strategywith the media and State Legislature. The feds are giving Indy (and all other cities our size planning rail) a very hard time with regards to access to federal money (blame the president). They are more focused on terrorists (no joke) than improving the lives of American's. Anyway, it looks like it is going to be a tough road ahead, but I am confident in this group.

Look for a line around 2012!

What? The Fed dragging it's heals? That doesn't sound like them at all. I guess the President is still busy delivering his 100th "Stay the Course/We Will Not be Intimidated" speech. :nocrook: I'm just glad the local government has decided that continual widening of the interstate system is not the answer.

I've got a gut feeling that we'll be hearing more and more stories of things like this happening as the city gears up it's campaign to build a new courts building. I just hope it doesn't take a catastrophe before a new tower is approved. These types of things happen all the time in the City County building... Why the press now?

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051214/NEWS01/51214031

Defendant removed after courtroom outburst

Sheriff’s deputies removed Ty Evans from his Marion Superior Court trial this morning after he jumped from his seat during Marion County Prosecutor Carl Brizzi’s closing argument to angrily deny attempting to strangle a police informant.

As Brizzi walked over to the defense table and repeatedly motioned toward Evans, 43, telling the jury Evans had tried to kill 19-year-old Melinda Keedy on May 16, Evans yelled out, “No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t, and you know it.”
His outburst prompted Judge Tanya Walton Pratt to halt the trial and clear jurors from the courtroom before the end of Brizzi’s 16-minute closing statement.

“Mr. Evans, be quiet,” Pratt said twice as jurors left the courtroom.

If convicted, Evans, a 10-time convicted felon with 23 aliases, faces up to 73 years in prison on charges of attempted murder, aggravated battery, criminal confinement and resisting law enforcement. He’s being held in the Marion County Jail without bail.

Outside the presence of the jury, Deputy Prosecutor Janna Skelton, who tried the case with Brizzi, asked Pratt to declare a mistrial. Pratt denied the request but said she did not trust Evans to behave himself.

“I’m really skeptical about leaving Mr. Evans in the courtroom,” she said. “I’m concerned about him hollering out.”

She asked deputies to put Evans in a holding cell. As Evans was led out of the courtroom, he grabbed the rope used to choke Keedy, tossed it in the air and said, “That’s the first time I’ve ever touched it.”

A few minutes later, one of the deputies who led Evans away came back to testify outside of the jury’s presence that Evans had told him: “I’m not going to be a problem. I just wanted to put on a show for the court.”

When jurors returned, she told them the Indianapolis man had “elected not to remain in the courtroom for closing arguments” and that they should disregard his statements, which were not subject to cross examination. The case went to the jury at 10:54 a.m.

Call Star reporter Kevin Corcoran at (317) 444-2750.

Copyright 2005 IndyStar.com. All rights reserved

Transit news:

I just got back from the RTA meeting (regional transportation authority) and I can only give a bit of info due to "closed" meeting, but look for this to become a very big issue in the late spring early summer. Mayor Peterson was at today's meeting and "we" are carefully plotting our strategywith the media and State Legislature. The feds are giving Indy (and all other cities our size planning rail) a very hard time with regards to access to federal money (blame the president). They are more focused on terrorists (no joke) than improving the lives of American's. Anyway, it looks like it is going to be a tough road ahead, but I am confident in this group.

Look for a line around 2012!
Any chance we'll get to use Union Station as a (gasp) transportation hub again?

I agree, Union Station makes perfect sense for a hub. What's with the transportation hub they are proposing right now to be located near the new stadium. Last time I checked, it was about 2 blocks from Union Station. Any chance they would include or add it on to Union Station? BTW, cwilson, where did you attend school and what was your major?...just curious, perhaps you've stated it earlier in this forum.

I agree, Union Station makes perfect sense for a hub. What's with the transportation hub they are proposing right now to be located near the new stadium. Last time I checked, it was about 2 blocks from Union Station. Any chance they would include or add it on to Union Station? BTW, cwilson, where did you attend school and what was your major?...just curious, perhaps you've stated it earlier in this forum.

I was under the impression that the hub you've mentioned would be between the convention center expansion (currently the RCA dome) and the new stadium, on South street, and that it would be the city's Indygo bus hub. If I'm correct, it's directly across Capitol street from the Union Station tracks. This would make a lot of sense to have them right next to each other.

I whipped this up in MS Paint quick, but here's what I'm talking about:

http://www.oingyboingy.com/images/station.JPG

Correct me if you have more info. Please.

the hubs are to be very close to each other.

to my knowledge, Union Station is to be utilized as it is designed with the new rail. This is where the line from the airport may terminate.

the hubs are to be very close to each other.

to my knowledge, Union Station is to be utilized as it is designed with the new rail. This is where the line from the airport may terminate.
Sorry, I'm confused. As it is designed? You mean as it was designed a century ago? Or do you mean it'll stay as... whatever it is now that most tracks are enclosed into a strange structure...

I'd love to see all those lines opened up again. Perhaps that's too much to ask for...

I didn't know the hub was so close to Union Station. I thought it was a block away. I also didn't know it was supposed to be that big. From what cwilson says, it sounds like they are going to incorporate Union Station into the new hub. Question: Why so big? I thought it would be nothing more that a station, no bigger than a quarter of a city block. Also, is the city waiting til after the construction is complete on Indiana Stadium? If I remember correctly, there are access roads to the dome where the hub is to be located.

I didn't know the hub was so close to Union Station. I thought it was a block away. I also didn't know it was supposed to be that big. From what cwilson says, it sounds like they are going to incorporate Union Station into the new hub. Question: Why so big? I thought it would be nothing more that a station, no bigger than a quarter of a city block. Also, is the city waiting til after the construction is complete on Indiana Stadium? If I remember correctly, there are access roads to the dome where the hub is to be located.

I would think that a hub that incorporates all metro bus traffic and possibly light rail transit from the suburbs would have to be a great deal bigger than a quarter block... hell, I own that much on Market street East. We're talking about at least a hundred thousand people a day just for starters.

Not to mention that Union Station is currently Indy's Greyhound Bus station.

"If I remember correctly, there are access roads to the dome where the hub is to be located."
I'm not totally sure what you mean here, but the area that I've shaded in red as the Indygo hub is all parking lot. the dome will be torn down in 2008.

Really I don't know what's going on. The person here with real answers is Corey.

I read somewhere that Greyhound was considering replacing the Indianapolis facility...
This does not look like the kind of place I would want to wait for a bus.
http://www.rypn.org/rypn_files/editorials/Editorials/020602indy/images/Amtrak.JPG
On the other hand, this would make an excellent rail facility:
http://www.rypn.org/rypn_files/editorials/Editorials/020602indy/images/011107Indy.JPG

here is a "stadium cam"
http://www.wthr.com/global/category.asp?c=28215

By access road, I mean a roadway under the tracks for trucks to unload stuff for various events. If it's a parking lot then I guess i'm wrong. I agree that the hub would have to be big. I just wonder why they don't use the 2 blocks directly south of the station rather than the block to the south of the dome. I know the Crowne Plaza Hotel is part of the old terminal, but some of it is sitting empty. Why not tear down some of the terminal, keep the hotel and grand hall, and build a new center where some of the terminal now stands. The only building I know of in that area to the south of the station and north of south street, is the Slippery Noodle, which I'm sure they could build around. It seems to me, building a hub there would make better use of Union Station. Plus, Greyhound could incorporate a new place within that hub. I think that the land that they are proposing the hub could be better used for a hotel and/or commercial buildings, or even part of the expanded convention center. That will be prime land being in between the convention center and new stadium. I guess what I'm getting at is I'd rather the city use something that is historic and already built for transporation (Union Station), rather than build a low-rise complex on parking lot, where a high-rise hotel or tower could be. If they do build the hub, I hope it will not be another box. The city should build an eye-catching terminal. ALSO, i remember sometime ago that CSX railroad absolutely refused trackage rights for commuter rail. I think the city was trying to get them to relocate rail traffic on the outer loop around downtown. Maybe this is why the hub is proposed where it is. Any word on those negotiations? I would just love to see a completely revamped Union Station with transporation hub where is stands now.

Patio redux will have piano players, movies

Final details are still being worked out, but the reincarnation of The Patio as "Le Rouge" will offer a mixed bag of entertainment, food and experiences to Broad Ripple revelers.

At least three nights a week, expect a Howl at the Moon-like atmosphere with dueling pianos playing tunes from the '60s, '70s and '80s.

Owners David and Maggie Lee plan to have other special nights, such as evenings of old movies, and are even considering some live drama. They are still playing around with the notion of two or three different themes, David Lee said.

Their ambitious plan to have the former concert venue open as their own before New Year's Eve hasn't happened, so the new target opening date is mid-January, Lee said.

As for food, sushi and out-of-the-ordinary finger foods will be on the menu at Le Rouge, which is French for "the red," Lee said.

While Broad Ripple nightlife is generally known for attracting young people, the Lees hope their venue will attract a wider demographic. That's one of the reasons those pianos will be offering some golden oldie tunes, Lee said.

The Lees signed a 15-year lease to start the new nightspot after Patio owner Steve Ross decided a few months ago to close the Patio nightclub, 6309 N. Guilford Ave. The couple also own Naked Tchopstix, a restaurant at 6255 N. College Ave.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051216/COLUMNISTS04/512160530/1006/NEWS01

Life science firm plans to hire 225
Theoris helps drug, device companies solve manufacturing woes

An Indianapolis firm that specializes in helping life science companies solve manufacturing problems says it will add 225 jobs over six years, more than doubling its work force here.

Theoris Inc. officials said Thursday that a booming international business prompted them to add to the 150 jobs already based here.

Most of the new jobs will be engineering positions, paying an average of $37 an hour plus benefits. That's much higher than the Indianapolis-area average of $18.98 -- a government figure that lumps together full- and part-time employment. The new jobs also pay better than the $30.73 average wage in manufacturing in the region.

Life science is considered one of Central Indiana's best prospects for replacing bread-and-butter manufacturing jobs.

Indianapolis Mayor Bart Peterson said the expansion shows the Indianapolis area is continuing a trend toward replacing manufacturing jobs like the 900 lost this fall when the Chrysler Foundry closed.

"We are undergoing a transformation," Peterson said. "These jobs are being replaced."

Theoris executives said they considered moving to Princeton, N.J., to be closer to a cluster of life science companies like Johnson & Johnson.

But they said they decided to stay at their location at Keystone at the Crossing because it's a central location to both the East and West coasts, and because the low cost of living here helps attract workers from life science hotbeds in those regions.

Vice President Terry Spartz said Theoris also has more than a dozen Indiana companies as clients, although he wouldn't identify them because clients usually call in Theoris after the Food and Drug Administration finds problems making pharmaceuticals and medical devices.

"The market really serves us well," Spartz said. "This is not a small life science state."

Theoris received $1,278,000 in total incentives, or $5,680 per worker:

The incentives include:

• Indiana Economic Development Corp.: $1,167,000 in training grants and tax credits.

• City of Indianapolis: $96,000 in tax abatements on computers and other equipment.

• Indianapolis Private Industry Council: $15,000 of Workforce Innovation Life Science Training Grants.

Don Iannone, a Cleveland economic development consultant, said $5,680 a worker is a reasonable price. By way of comparison, Japanese automaker Nissan received about $155,000 a worker to move its United States headquarters from California to the Nashville, Tenn., area, Iannone noted.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051216/BUSINESS/512160426/1003

ATA to keep HQ in Indy

Indianapolis, Dec. 15 - Wednesday, a federal judge cleared the way for ATA airlines to begin the process of emerging from bankruptcy possibly by the end of February.

The company says half of the restructured airline's business will be military charter, the rest scheduled passenger service focusing on historically profitable vacation destinations like Hawaii.

CEO John Denison says emerging from bankruptcy is only the beginning for ATA. "We need to earn a profit on a consistent basis going forward so that we can guarantee jobs...provide quality jobs for our people who are wonderful," said Denison.

ATA is a shell of its former self, once the 10th largest airline, it has slashed over 3,000 jobs, cut wages, closed gates and spun off subsidiaries like Ambassadair Travel after a combination of high fuel costs, fare wars and expensive jet leases sent profits into a tailspin forcing the company to seek Chapter 11 protection. Emerging from bankruptcy means the airline gives up seven of eight gates at Chicago's Midway Airport and gains a new owner.

The new ATA will be controlled by a New York investment firm planning to pump $120 million into the airline. The question is whether they're committed to running an airline.

"They're not the kind of folks who buy and sell quickly and tear things apart. I think they want to use us as a platform to do something within the airline industry," said Denison.

ATA hopes to return to profitability by the middle of next year. It does so while signing a new five-year lease keeping its headquarters in Indianapolis, but without passenger service in it's hometown. That disappears next month.

The worst would have been the airline folding. Instead, the company says, we've been given a second chance and plan to make the most of it.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4251431

Grand Opening Set For New International Foods Concept Store

A grand opening ceremony is set for Saturday on the Indianapolis Westside for a new grocery store that brings the super-size concept to international foods.

Saraga International Grocery has located in a former Super Kmart. The 62,000-square-foot store offers food and products from Korea, Mexico, Greece, Brazil, Jamaica, and dozens of other countries. The store even includes a pharmacy and a food court that serves Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean dishes. Co-owner Jong Sung says they are already looking at other cities for possible expansion down the road.


Indianapolis, IN – With Indianapolis’ increasingly diverse population, brothers Jong Sung and Bong Jae Sung figured the time was ripe for the city’s first super-sized international grocery store and food court.

Saraga International Grocery opened recently on the city’s Westside in a former Super Kmart near Lafayette Road and 38th Street. The concept is similar to Wal-Mart—offer lots of products at great prices. The 62,000-square-foot store offers food and products from Korea, Mexico, Greece, Brazil, Jamaica, and dozens of other countries. Saraga includes a pharmacy and food court serving Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean cuisine. A gift shop, bakery and check-cashing service will be added later.

Jong and Bong Jae, who built a faithful clientele at the Saraga Asian Market in Bloomington, began thinking about expanding their concept four years ago. They had noticed how super-sized international markets, including the chain Super H Mart, were starting to hit the East Coast, including New York, New Jersey and Washington, D.C.

Indianapolis’ growing international population prompted the Sung brothers to start looking at retail spaces to test their theory that the city is ready for a large international supermarket.

The store reflects the Sungs’ target market—about 50 percent of the product mix comes from Latin America, 25 percent from Asia, 10 percent from America, 5 percent from African countries, and 5 percent from European nations. The store features frozen food, dairy products, meat, produce and dried goods from all these regions of the world.

“It has just about everything,” Jong Sung says of Saraga. “It’s a good place to learn about international food and other cultures.”

For customers unfamiliar with certain products, the store’s employees—all of whom are bilingual—are on hand to help with their international shopping experience, Jong Sung says.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?id=16190

That will be a cool grocery store to go look around in. And you could ask questions about everything, since the employees know all about the foods. Sounds like fun...

The international food store will be a great addition to Indianapolis, especially the West Side. I frequented the Saraga store in Bloomington, and miss it very much now that Im in Japan. Its hard to get non-Japanese food here! :(

Grand Opening Set For New International Foods Concept Store

A grand opening ceremony is set for Saturday on the Indianapolis Westside for a new grocery store that brings the super-size concept to international foods.

Saraga International Grocery has located in a former Super Kmart. The 62,000-square-foot store offers food and products from Korea, Mexico, Greece, Brazil, Jamaica, and dozens of other countries. The store even includes a pharmacy and a food court that serves Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean dishes. Co-owner Jong Sung says they are already looking at other cities for possible expansion down the road.


Indianapolis, IN – With Indianapolis’ increasingly diverse population, brothers Jong Sung and Bong Jae Sung figured the time was ripe for the city’s first super-sized international grocery store and food court.

Saraga International Grocery opened recently on the city’s Westside in a former Super Kmart near Lafayette Road and 38th Street. The concept is similar to Wal-Mart—offer lots of products at great prices. The 62,000-square-foot store offers food and products from Korea, Mexico, Greece, Brazil, Jamaica, and dozens of other countries. Saraga includes a pharmacy and food court serving Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean cuisine. A gift shop, bakery and check-cashing service will be added later.

Jong and Bong Jae, who built a faithful clientele at the Saraga Asian Market in Bloomington, began thinking about expanding their concept four years ago. They had noticed how super-sized international markets, including the chain Super H Mart, were starting to hit the East Coast, including New York, New Jersey and Washington, D.C.

Indianapolis’ growing international population prompted the Sung brothers to start looking at retail spaces to test their theory that the city is ready for a large international supermarket.

The store reflects the Sungs’ target market—about 50 percent of the product mix comes from Latin America, 25 percent from Asia, 10 percent from America, 5 percent from African countries, and 5 percent from European nations. The store features frozen food, dairy products, meat, produce and dried goods from all these regions of the world.

“It has just about everything,” Jong Sung says of Saraga. “It’s a good place to learn about international food and other cultures.”

For customers unfamiliar with certain products, the store’s employees—all of whom are bilingual—are on hand to help with their international shopping experience, Jong Sung says.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?id=16190

I have to thank you, you've made myself and many members of my family happy with this info.

This sounds extremely cool! Actualy this sounds a bit like Jungle Jims in Hamilton Ohio, except for the food court. Being familiar w. Jungle Jims I have to say, if the place is as fantastic as it sounds its going to be, you all are in for a real treat their Indy (esp. if you like to cook).

I went this weekend just to check it out. The selection of food is definitely fabulous, and the store was busy (which is a good thing). However, they should do something about making it a bit more inviting. Not exactly somewhere I'd want to sit and eat, if you know what I mean. But the selection was great, and there are definitely things there I doubt you could find anywhere else in Indy.

Arts organization coming to Indy

A national arts association is relocating its headquarters, museum and convention to Indiana, the Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association announced in a press release today.

Mayor Bart Peterson and Bob Bedell, president and CEO of the visitors association, will reveal the name of the organization at a press conference at the Indiana Convention Center at 11 a.m. Tuesday.

According to the news release, the new convention would bring with it an economic impact of $37 million.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/BUSINESS/51219029

Indy police-sheriff merger passes

The City-County Council voted 16-13 tonight to consolidate the Indianapolis Police and the Marion County Sheriff's departments into a single force.

The merger would be phased in, taking effect by 2007.

The vote ended months of debate. Mayor Bart Peterson had argued that the measure would save money and prevent layoffs, but offered few specifics.

Supporters said it will end duplication in areas where the two departments maintain similar functions.

Republican minority leader Phil Borst, who opposed the ordinance, argued for a delay until the plan is further developed, but Democrat Ron Gibson said there was no need to wait.

"This is the right time in our history to merge the Indianapolis Police Department and the Marion County Sheriff's Department," he said.

Mary Moriarty Adams, the Democrat who led the fight in the council for the merger, agreed. After months of meetings and debate and changes, she said, "we've delayed and postponed long enough."

After the vote, Councilman Scott Keller said rank-and-file officers in both departments would be consulted as merger specifics are worked out. Indianapolis police union leaders objected to the merger, saying that too little was known about whether it would work.

The Indianapolis Fraternal Order of Police issued a written statement immediately after the vote -- prepared long in advance -- saying that council members are "still misleading citizens by saying there will be multimillion-dollar savings."

And, said Vince Huber, president of the FOP, the council has yet to show how consolidation will ensure the safety of citizens.

During the debate and vote on the ordinance, Michael Phillips, an IPD patrolman for nearly five years, could only listen to the vote, unable to get into the crammed City-County Council chambers.

He shook his head, saying he was personally against the merger.

"There's so many questions that aren't answered," Phillips said, citing staffing levels in particular. "It's my life. My backup is going to have to come from a lot longer away."

But, Phillips said, the merger was now a fact, and he and other police would live with it.

How they voted
Democrats for (14): Patrice Abduallah, Greg Bowes, Rozelle Boyd, Vernon Brown, Lonnell Conley, Ron Gibson, Monroe Gray, Dane Mahern, Angela Mansfield, Mary Moriarty Adams, Jackie Nytes, William Oliver, Joanne Sanders, Steve Talley.

Republicans for (2): Scott Keller, Lance Langsford

Democrats against (1): Sherron Franklin

Republicans against (12): Philip Borst, James Bradford, Virginia Cain, Bob Cockrum, N. Susie Day, Lynn McWhirter, Marilyn Pfisterer, Lincoln Plowman, Isaac Randolph, Earl Salisbury, Scott Schneider, Mike Speedy.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS01/51219026

Gay rights ordinance passes

The City-County Council tonight passed legislation banning discrimination in the workplace and housing market based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

Proposal 622 passed 15-14.

The vote quickly followed the council's vote to merge the city and county police departments. Both issues were handled in less than 45 minutes.

Both measures also appeared to be dead earlier this year, only to return to the council to win narrow victories. The police consolidation plan passed 16-13.

Opponents to Proposal 622 said little evidence was presented that gays and lesbians had been discriminated against. Others contended the measure was a step closer to sanctioning gay marriage.

Supporters argued the anti-discrimination ordinance merely extends the practices of most large companies, the governor's office, the prosecutor's office and city hall and applies them to all businesses and landlords within Marion County.

Advocates also say the measure sends a message that Indianapolis is a friendly city to gays and lesbians. Business leaders supported the measure to attract top talent here.

As the vote was announced supporters applauded and cheered. Among them was Jeff Miner, pastor of Jesus Metropolitan Community Church, which says it has the Midwest's largest gay and transgender congregation.

"God is probably looking down on Indianapolis tonight and smiling," Miner said.

Danny Miles, 57, a deacon at the Revival Temple Church, 1226 Martin Luther King Drive, said he was disappointed with the council's votes on the gay rights legislation.

“I’m a Christian, and Christians don’t hate gays," he said. "But their lifestyle is wrong.”

How they voted

Democrats for (13): Abduallah, Bowes, Boyd, Brown, Conley, Gibson, Gray, Mahern, Mansfield, Nytes, Oliver, Sanders, Talley.

Republicans for (2): Keller, Langsford

Democrats against (2): Franklin, Adams

Republicans against (12): Borst, Bradford, Cain, Cockrum, Day, McWhirter, Pfisterer, Plowman, Randolph

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS01/51219027

Arts organization coming to Indy

A national arts association is relocating its headquarters, museum and convention to Indiana, the Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association announced in a press release today.

Mayor Bart Peterson and Bob Bedell, president and CEO of the visitors association, will reveal the name of the organization at a press conference at the Indiana Convention Center at 11 a.m. Tuesday.

According to the news release, the new convention would bring with it an economic impact of $37 million.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/BUSINESS/51219029

Wow. Knowing the Star, they'll actually post online at at 3:30, but that's great news. Gych must be livid.

WTF??? What is that...it is fugly. It looks like something out a dystopian story.
Here's a slightly better pic, but doesn't show what's in the background.
http://i.pbase.com/o4/25/568725/1/53737255.indy032.jpg
I got it from the "Indy in the rain thread: http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=296570

Yay! Way to go Indy! I have several friends in Indy (mostly around Chatham Arch), and I've been there several times. Indy has always appeared to be just as progressive, in terms of it's treatment of gays, as any other city - if not more progressive than most. But this is a tangible example for everyone that Indy is a good place for anyone to live, not just gays, because it shows that Indy is willing to go the extra mile to stop discrimination of any kind, and treat all of it's citizens fairly.

My friends in Indy said that the most disappointing aspect of the initial failure to pass this bill last spring, was that the democrats - the party that's supposed to be for everyone, white, black, Asian, Hispanic, rich, poor, straight, gay, strong, weak, etc... - were the ones responsible for it's downfall, primarily because the black democrats voted against it. So, what made the black democrats change their minds?

Good for the City Council for passing the protection for GLBT citizens. I hope we are entering an era when NOT having these kinds of protections is seen as strange, rather than vice versa.

Arts organization coming to Indy

A national arts association is relocating its headquarters, museum and convention to Indiana, the Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association announced in a press release today.

Mayor Bart Peterson and Bob Bedell, president and CEO of the visitors association, will reveal the name of the organization at a press conference at the Indiana Convention Center at 11 a.m. Tuesday.

According to the news release, the new convention would bring with it an economic impact of $37 million.

Oooh, I wonder who it is? An arts organization that holds a convention with a $37 million impact. That ain't too shabby. Whoever it is, congratulations Indy. Because it certainly appears to be a decent sized organization. It definitely isn't going to be somebody like the Followers of Pastel Lilly Stills in Winter - membership 7 people.

Yay! Way to go Indy! I have several friends in Indy (mostly around Chatham Arch), and I've been there several times. Indy has always appeared to be just as progressive, in terms of it's treatment of gays, as any other city - if not more progressive than most. But this is a tangible example for everyone that Indy is a good place for anyone to live, not just gays, because it shows that Indy is willing to go the extra mile to stop discrimination of any kind, and treat all of it's citizens fairly.

My friends in Indy said that the most disappointing aspect of the initial failure to pass this bill last spring, was that the democrats - the party that's supposed to be for everyone, white, black, Asian, Hispanic, rich, poor, straight, gay, strong, weak, etc... - were the ones responsible for it's downfall, primarily because the black democrats voted against it. So, what made the black democrats change their minds?
Julia Carson took them to task. God, I love her so.
http://www.juliacarson.house.gov/

Yes, Ms. Carson, Indy's US Rep (LOVE THIS WOMAN) gathered the caucus...without them knowing what was up...and ripped them a new one! It was beautiful!

The Arts announcement is a big deal! The Mayor has really mad ehtis front and center. It looks like that delgation the City hosted a few months back of Museum/Arts folks really did some good!

I'm assuming this was the arts organization referenced in earlier posts. This is from the Star:

Indianapolis snares drum group headquarters

By Vic Ryckaert
vic.ryckaert@indystar.com
Indianapolis picked up the beat today with the announcement that the Percussive Arts Society will bring its national headquarters and conventions here.


The 8,000-member group for drummers and percussionists has agreed to move from Oklahoma to Indianapolis in 2007. The group also chose Indianapolis to host seven conventions from 2009 to 2019, said Jo Lynn Garing, a spokeswoman for Mayor Bart Peterson.
The conventions will bring an economic impact of more than $37 million to the city, Garing said.
Indianapolis beat out Nashville, Tenn., Austin, Texas, and other cities vying for a chance to host the arts group.
"That says something about how Indianapolis is becoming more recognized for its arts and culture," Garing said. "Associations that want to be where things are happening are choosing to be here."
Percussive Arts Society is the world's largest percussion organization and is considered the central source for information and networking for percussionists and drummers of all. Established in 1961 as a non-profit organization promotes percussion education, research, performance and appreciation, according to the group's Web site


Call Star reporter Vic Ryckaert at (317) 444-2761.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051220/NEWS01/512210302



On a personal note, great news about the GLBT ordinance. I was shocked when it didn't pass initially... it's about time!

^^ This is great news for Indy. By the way, are there still plans to introduce a monthly art gallery hop there?

I haven't heard anything about it lately but it could still be in the works.

Cumberland becomes city’s 15th locally protected district

INDIANAPOLIS – The Metropolitan Development Commission today approved a resolution creating a conservation district within the Town of Cumberland. The historic community on the city’s far Eastside became the 15th district locally protected by the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission (IHPC).

Today’s designation comes after months of planning and collaboration between IHPC planners and Cumberland town leaders and residents. The incorporated Town of Cumberland straddles the eastern edge of Marion County and the western edge of Hancock County, however the conservation district is entirely contained within Marion County.

The conservation district designation allows the IHPC to protect buildings and structures from demolition, review plans for rehabilitation and new construction, and oversee the planning process through the administration of rezoning and variance petitions. A conservation district differs from full historic designation in that it focuses more on conserving the overall character of a community than on the specific architectural elements of individual buildings.

“The Town of Cumberland is rich in character and history, and we believe IHPC protection will help it continue to thrive as one of our city’s most unique communities,” said Department of Metropolitan Development Director Maury Plambeck. “Historic designation invokes a sense of community pride that leads to stable, safer, thriving neighborhoods.”

Local designation not only protects historic resources within a community, but also establishes strategies for improving neighborhood quality of life. The Cumberland Conservation Plan includes recommendations for revitalizing commercial corridors along East Washington Street and encourages more mixed-use development to support additional neighborhood-type retail.

Founded in 1831, Cumberland’s history is largely tied to the expansion of transportation along America’s National Road (now U.S. 40). The town historically has been a stopover for travelers seeking services along the National Road and became a major transportation hub in Indiana. Now suburban-style development is impacting the town’s historic integrity. In 1999, Cumberland was listed on Historic Landmarks Foundation of Indiana’s “10 Most Endangered,” which lists Hoosier landmarks in jeopardy.

Here's a slightly better pic, but doesn't show what's in the background.
http://i.pbase.com/o4/25/568725/1/53737255.indy032.jpg
I got it from the "Indy in the rain thread: http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=296570

I used to know the people who live in the condo with the American flag outside it... They are pretty nice on the inside and have a great view of the city skyline... the people just moved to Vermont street and renovated a house there. I love how the near east side is coming back.

I found this picture of new stadium site. I believe it was taken a week or two ago
http://oxblue.com/archive/8252a53cdf135347c0dd1d16228b6ff2/current.jpg

Tony Dungy's eldest son was died today in Florida, as I'm sure most of you have heard. He has taken leave until further notice. What a terrible thing that has happened to one of the classiest people in the NFL, as well as professional sports. He is the leader and the major reason why the Colts are one of the best and classiest organizations in the NFL. As a fan, I know this team will rally around each other and support each other at this time of loss. My prayers are with Tony Dungy and his family.

In the foreground of that pic is the proposed transportation hub.

I don't know what to say about the Dungy's.

I think that as excited as we all are over the season we are having no football game or city event can even begin to mount up to what has happened in the Dungy family. I am a parent as I am sure many of you are as well. I have also lost a child and can tell you it is the most nightmarish thing you could ever imagine. Not only did the Dungy family lose a son but the whole city of Indianapolis lost a son as well. I think I can speak for all of us as I wish Tony and his family the best.

Football is a game, Life is Life

God Speed :cry:

Can't wait until those piles of dirt and that huge hole in the ground are replaced with heavy steel.

It's very rare to find a man that not only does his job well, but is a role model socially and spiritually. Tony Dungy is the kind of person that an entire city benefits from. I would love to see the Colts offer him a 10 year contract.

Are there any plans for the U.S. Postal Building to the east of the new stadium? This seems like prime ground to develop. The building now is very industrial looking and has a huge surface parking lot in the back...now exactly high density.

Here are some images i found from all angle on top of the City County Building's observation deck taked during July 2005:

Looking north:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/319_jpg.jpg

Massachusetts Ave and Murat Center:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/320_jpg.jpg

Conseco Fieldhouse:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/321_jpg.jpg

Looking southwest:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/322_jpg.jpg

Farm Bureau headquarters and Fletcher Place neighboorhood in background:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/323_jpg.jpg

Looking west:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/324_jpg.jpg

Looking northwest:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/325_jpg.jpg

Murat Center on Massachusetts Ave:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/406_jpg.jpg

Lilly Campus:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708SLR/04-citycounty/images/408_jpg.jpg

Looking north along New Jersey Street:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708digital/04-

Looking east over former site of Market Square Arena (ugliest part of downtown/most potential) One Market Square will be located on lower left corner:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708digital/04-

Looking south down New Jersey Street:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708digital/04-

Construction of Conrad, July 2005 (exterior is now finished):
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0507/050708digital/04-

Sorry the last few didn't turn out, here are some more:

Union Station train shed:


Looking down trainshed:
[img]http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0210/Digital1/images/dscn0001_jpg.jpg

Looking north from Union Station:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0210/Digital1/images/dscn0003_jpg.jpg

Looking east along canal:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0210/Digital4/images/DSCN0001_JPG.jpg

Canal Square? apartments:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0210/Digital4/images/DSCN0009_JPG.jpg

Indiana Repertory Theater at night:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0210/Roll2/images/scan0012_jpg.jpg

Inside the City Market:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0204/new0204-2/images/06_jpg.jpg

300 N. Meridian and Ameritech Building:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0202/09/images/1-25_jpg.jpg

Indiana Government Center and canal:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0111/111801/new011119-3/images/11_jpg.jpg

Pam Am Plaza building:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0111/112301/new011123-1/images/02_jpg.jpg

The Majestic Building:
http://www.tarabeimershaw.com/gallery/indiana/0111/112301/new011123-1/images/11_jpg.jpg

Are there any plans for the U.S. Postal Building to the east of the new stadium? This seems like prime ground to develop. The building now is very industrial looking and has a huge surface parking lot in the back...now exactly high density.

YES...It is for sale. The Post Office just leases the building and will have to relocate.

I found this picture of new stadium site. I believe it was taken a week or two ago
http://oxblue.com/archive/8252a53cdf135347c0dd1d16228b6ff2/current.jpg



That's not an old pic... that's a live webcam! Thanks for finding it.

Convention Center loan a done deal
Agreement essentially completes financing for $900 million project that includes Downtown stadium

Construction won't start until 2008, but state finance officials completed a crucial step Wednesday in getting Indianapolis' new Convention Center built--securing the money.

Indiana Public Finance Director Ryan Kitchell and Budget Director Charles Schalliol signed dozens of documents that locked in a $300 million loan. The 4.55 percent interest rate on the loan is lower than most homeowners would get on their mortgages, and only slightly higher than the 4.23 percent rate the state secured for the stadium portion of the deal earlier this year.

Wednesday's closing essentially seals the financing on one of the largest public projects in the city's history -- a $900 million stadium and Convention Center project whose loan package was handled by bond attorneys at Barnes & Thornburg.

Money from Marion County tax collections, including hotel stays and food and beverage sales, will help pay off the loans. So will a 1 percent food and beverage tax adopted by six nearby counties.

Once the stadium and Convention Center are paid off -- probably around 2040 -- the additional tax will no longer be collected.

As part of the deal completed Wednesday, Key and Old National banks each will lend the Indiana Stadium and Convention Center Building Authority $20 million for start-up costs for the Convention Center. This money will allow the authority to hire consultants and architects to start designing the Convention Center, which will be expanded into the space now occupied by the RCA Dome. The Dome won't be needed in 2008, when the new stadium is scheduled to be done.

Stadium authority Executive Director John Klipsch said he hopes to have a design team picked for the Convention Center by mid-2006.

Stadium construction update
Construction crews have been battling bitterly cold weather in recent weeks to finish excavating the new stadium site. Here's an update on their progress:

Excavation is about 75 percent complete, and all utilities have been relocated.

Workers have begun pouring concrete for the foundation -- so far, 1,300 cubic yards of the 41,000 cubic yards have been poured.

Next, workers will start installing footings for the huge super-columns that will support the stadium.

To date, $125 million in contracts have been approved for the stadium, which has a budget of $675 million. That includes "soft costs," such as design, land acquisition and legal fees.

Stadium officials have spent $2.5 million of the $50 million contingency fund because excavation costs were greater than expected.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051222/NEWS01/512220397

Music group beats a path to Indy
Percussive Arts Society will boost area's arts profile and bring millions in spending

Indianapolis, already home to several well-known music organizations, will welcome a new face in 2007 in its effort to become a music capital.

The Percussive Arts Society will join a local music scene that includes the American Pianists Association, Bands of America and the International Violin Competition of Indianapolis.The arrival of the organization could mean everything from a boost to the city's reputation as a music destination to high-profile rock drummers coming to town.

Plans for the organization's move were announced Tuesday at the Indiana Convention Center.

"What we're attempting to do is help make Indianapolis a music capital for the world," said L. Scott McCormick, the executive director of Bands of America, who helped lobby for the Percussive Arts Society's move. "There really isn't anything in the rest of the country with the breadth of assets that Indianapolis already has."

Michael Kenyon, the Percussive Arts Society's executive director, said his 12-person staff, museum and library would move to Indianapolis in early 2007. The 44-year-old performing and education service organization is in Lawton, Okla.

Plans call for the society to move to a 15,000-square-foot Downtown Indianapolis location. Aside from ruling out Union Station, where Bands of America is based, city officials would not discuss details about the organization's future quarters because the lease is being negotiated.

Starting in 2009, the Percussive Arts Society will hold seven of its next 10 annual conventions in the city.

Indianapolis Mayor Bart Peterson, who has been a strong advocate for making Indianapolis a cultural destination, said the move "does a couple of things for us. It provides some jobs and, more importantly, the city becomes a destination for world-class musicians. This place becomes the locus, the place where you go to talk about the percussive arts."

Room for all
Kenyon said the society had explored 96 cities (including Atlanta; Nashville, Tenn.; and Columbus, Ohio) but chose Indianapolis because it had room to accommodate all of the group's components.

"As each segment of our organization -- the headquarters, the museum and the convention -- has grown, we wanted to put them all together," Kenyon said. "And while the headquarters and the museum are located in the same building (in Oklahoma), Lawton can't handle our convention. We wanted a place where we could have everything together."

Each Percussive Arts Society convention is expected to spark $5.4 million in direct visitor spending. About 8,000 convention-goers of all ages and backgrounds are expected to spend money here on food, hotels and entertainment.

Bands of America, by comparison, creates $13.2 million in spending each year with 35,000 visitors. The largest convention belongs to FFA (Future Farmers of America), with 54,000 visitors who generate $30 million a year .

More than half of Indianapolis' $3.3 billion tourism industry is tied to business travelers who stay overnight. A quarter of them come to town for conventions and meetings, according to a recent study from the Indianapolis Convention & Visitors Association.

Paul Berns, the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra's longtime principal percussionist, predicted the conventions would make Indianapolis a destination for percussionists in every area of music.

"Everybody's favorite rock drummer will come to Indy," he said. "Every major classical percussionist from every orchestra all over the world will visit Indy."

Berns also thinks the arrival of the Percussive Arts Society will take the local percussion scene to another level.

"This," he said, "makes Indy a really cool place to live."

According to Simon Crookall, the ISO's president and chief executive officer, the move also will have an impact on existing local music groups. "The possibilities for collaboration are huge."

For instance, the ISO and the Percussive Arts Society are discussing plans for the society's 50th anniversary in 2011.

About the Percussive Arts Society
• The group: An international music service organization founded in 1961. The group is dedicated to promoting percussionists and to educating them and their listeners around the world. The Percussive Arts Society organizes annual conferences, as well as concerts, clinics and master classes.

• The instruments: A percussion instrument is sounded by striking or shaking it.

• Where: Now based in Lawton, Okla., the society plans to move to Indianapolis in early 2007. The headquarters includes offices, a museum and a library that contains rare instruments and music scores.

• Info: For more information, go to www.pas.org.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051221/ENTERTAINMENT04/512210472/1005/ENTERTAINMENT

While looking around the Indy Downtown website, I found some new condo developments that I hadn't known about before...

Project: Myron Place
Developer: Kendall Construction Group
Location: 620 E. 11th St.
Units: 16 Townhomes, 4 homes
Price: $279,900 - $289,900
Opening Date: 1Q/2006
Description: New Construction in historic Chatham Arch. 16 attached townhomes and 4 detached homes from 1,930 to 2,225 square feet with two car garages.
http://miborpicturesweb1.marketlinx.com/mediadisplay/02/hr2467602-2.jpg

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Project: Shoemaker Flats
Location: 135 W. Market St.
Developer: Homeowners, Inc.
Type: 8 Apartments & retail
Price: TBD
Opening Date: 3Q/2005
Description: Located in the heart of Downtown. Within walking distance to Circle Centre Mall and other Downtown amenities.
http://www.monumentcompanies.com/images/shoemaker-27.jpg

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Project: Lockerbie Corner Condominiums
Developer: Monument Realty & Management
Location: 402 E. New York St.
Units: 10 units
Price: TBD
Opening Date: 2Q/2006
Description: Condo units ranging from 900 to 1750 sq. ft. located on the northeast corner of New York and New Jersey streets. Ten garage parking spaces included.

Key Cinemas will return to showing art films

Ron Keedy is getting back into the business he's loved and known so long -- art-house films.

Key Cinemas Beech Grove, 4404 S. Keystone Ave., will abandon its short-lived existence as a second-run outlet for discount ticket family films -- which was prompted by Landmark Theatre's move into the area Dec. 9 with a seven-screen art cinema in the Fashion Mall.

"I listened to a lot of advice from different people," Keedy said Monday, "but I forgot to listen to myself."

With a new booking agent who will help him do business in the kind of films he prefers to show, Keedy will mark his return to independent fare Friday with "Touch the Sound," a documentary about Scottish percussionist Evelyn Glennie, who is deaf.

"I can coexist with Landmark," Keedy said. "As one woman told me, 'Landmark can't play everything!' "

Such expressions of public support, including gifts of wine and more than 400 calls and e-mails, drove Keedy's decision. "People have said they like our homey feel, and our caramel corn is famous citywide.

"They like being able to park by our front door," he added, alluding to Key Cinemas' location in a strip mall at Hanna and South Keystone avenues.

Besides the loyalty of art film connoisseurs, Keedy's decision also was prompted by discouraging public reaction to his new exhibition policy, despite a flurry of media coverage when he announced the switch.

"I've been doing this for three weeks now, and I'm not getting any response at all," he said.

Anticipating the return of his fan base and the movies that created it, Keedy is optimistic.

"I've got a whole new perspective I wasn't aware of before," he said. "And this is what I want to do."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2005512200382

86th/Keystone proposal wins preliminary approval

A zoning petition that would put 31 townhome condominiums and 60,000 square feet of retail space--possibly including Indianapolis' first Whole Foods Market--at 86th Street and Keystone Avenue was recommended for approval Dec. 16 by the city's hearing examiner, despite about 30 neighbors who showed up to oppose the petition.

In announcing the decision, the hearing examiner cited the changing character of the surrounding neighborhood in past years. The hearing examiner also noted that plans for the development were submitted before city adoption of a new comprehensive that recommends no commercial development on the site.

PK Capital LLC, headed by Paul Kite, first submitted a proposal for the site in the spring that called for mid-rise condos and retail. The proposal was changed in response to negative reaction from residents of the neighborhoods near 86th Street and Haverstick Road, which form the southern and western boundaries of the project.

The case is scheduled to be heard by the city's metropolitan development commission next month.

Residents have five business days to appeal the hearing examiner's recommendation. Ruth Hayes, president of the Nora Northside Community Council, said they plan to do so.

http://64.255.242.145/rew/assets/images/KiteCondoRetail.gif

^^Its about time Indy got whole foods! That always irked me, and I never liked Trader Joe's. And I consider this suburban "infill" at this point. Id rather see this development here than way out in Noblesville. It will be better for the city in the long run.

The $50M name game
Colts face corporate frugality in search for stadium sponsor

Tom Zupancic doesn't need to put Eli Lilly and Co. on his list. RCA owner Thomson SA, however, is a viable target.

Zupancic, an Indianapolis Colts senior vice president, has been making a list of potential corporate sponsors willing to lay down tens of millions of dollars to have their name splashed across the new Indiana Stadium.

Interested companies should be prepared to spend in the neighborhood of $50 million over 15 to 20 years. How much the name is worth will be based on everything from how frequently TV broadcasts will show footage of the stadium name to how many times children will hear the name on video games.

Though the stadium won't open until the 2008 football season, Zupancic and his marketing crew hope to capitalize on the Colts' winning season to land the deal sooner rather than later.

"The team's success helps with everything. . . . But the deal has to stand alone," Zupancic said.

In compiling a list of possible targets, the team is zeroing in on large, Indiana-based companies that might want to publicize their names on a stadium that is expected at some point to host a Super Bowl.

"It could be a company that's nationally known, that just wants to brand itself with the NFL or specifically the Indianapolis Colts," Zupancic said. "We're looking for a company that's solid, that's growing."

The winner may not be a Hoosier company. Earlier this year, Illinois-based insurance giant Allstate bought the rights to the Brickyard 400 NASCAR race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

The name almost certainly won't be Lilly, one of the largest corporations in Central Indiana. A spokesman for Lilly, Ed Sagebiel, said the pharmaceutical giant hasn't been contacted by the Colts, nor is it contemplating such a deal.
One of the companies the team is talking with is Thomson, whose RCA brand graces the Dome where the Colts now play. The two sides met earlier this year.

Naming rights in the National Football League are lucrative deals -- with companies paying out $620,000 to $10 million a year to place their monikers on stadiums.

Because Indianapolis is a medium-size media market, the Colts can't expect to bag a deal worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The Houston Texans, for example, have an agreement with Reliant Energy worth $300 million. Zupancic expects the Colts to end up with a deal somewhere in the middle of the naming-rights price range.

The team will handle the negotiations itself rather than hire consultants. Colts owner Jim Irsay has given the bargaining job to Zupancic, who will be brokering his first stadium naming-rights deal. Under the lease agreement between the Colts and the city, it will be up to the team to select the sponsor. The Colts will get to keep all of the money in selling the naming rights.

But finding a naming-rights sponsor is not easy, said Dennis R. Howard, a professor at the University of Oregon's Warsaw Sports Marketing Center.

"There are a lot of teams out there searching and searching," said Howard, noting that it took the Seattle Seahawks two years after the team's stadium opened to land a $75 million deal with Qwest Communications.

"The corporate sector is such a significant part of the revenue engine for teams," Howard said. "But there's a shrinking pool of prospects" because of the financial problems facing so many U.S. companies.

Zupancic hopes the team will be able to find a sponsor with a little less trouble because Indianapolis isn't selling the rights only to a football stadium, but to a stadium that will host millions of conventioneers a year and NCAA Final Four basketball tournaments. Also, the stadium is in the heart of the city, not out of sight in the suburbs.

What will the winning bidder get for buying the naming rights to Indiana Stadium?

For starters, it will get its name splashed across a giant building visible to millions of cars that annually cross Downtown on I-70, not to mention the blimp that flies overhead during "Monday Night Football" games and the NCAA Final Four.

The company also will get to help decide whether the stadium will be referred to as a stadium, an arena or a field. It also will get to take over the main entrance to the new stadium and turn it into an exhibit space of its own.

And the sponsoring company will get access -- to the stadium for parties and meetings, and to cheerleaders and players who will help promote the company.

For Carmel-based Conseco, whose name is attached to the Fieldhouse where the Indiana Pacers play, there's all that plus a feel-good factor, too.

"It provides a source of name-recognition and pride -- it helps connect Conseco to the values of the middle America market we serve," said company spokesman James Rosensteele.

Dave Arland, vice president for marketing with France-based Thomson SA, the owner of the RCA brand, said securing the naming rights to the new stadium might turn out to be "too rich for our blood."

That said, Thomson might have an advantage in any negotiations because "there's a very small number of companies that are willing to pony up the money that this requires," he said.

Arland said naming-rights deals have proven to be a successful sports marketing initiative for the consumer electronics end of Thomson. How successful?

"You don't have to look any further than 'Monday Night Football,' " Arland said, referring to the repeated overhead shots of the RCA Dome seen on network TV. Further exposure will come in April when the RCA Dome hosts the NCAA men's Final Four.

RCA owner Thomson bought the naming rights to the Dome in 1994 for $10 million for a 10-year span, then renewed last year for $1.3 million a year. The city used some of the revenue it received in the original deal to build Victory Field, home of the Indianapolis Indians.

The revenue from the Dome's naming rights now goes to the Capital Improvement Board, which runs the Dome, but the money is then passed on to the Colts as part of a 1998 agreement that renewed the team's presence in Indianapolis.

The significance of naming-rights revenue for NFL teams became evident in the last round of negotiations that resulted in a new stadium and a 30-year commitment from the Colts to Indianapolis. The Colts wanted the city to make up the difference if the naming deal didn't generate a certain level of revenue, said Fred Glass, president of the Capital Improvement Board, which struck the deal with the Colts on the new stadium.

Glass said the city steadfastly rejected that idea. "We didn't want to be on the hook," Glass said.

The Colts still ended up with a good deal. Besides revenue from naming rights, the team will get about half of the revenue from non-NFL events at the stadium, and it will get to keep money from game-day concessions and parking.

In securing a corporate sponsor, Zupancic wants nothing less than a 15- to 20-year deal. Any shorter term, he said, is hardly worth the effort because of the hassles involved in changing signs.

Other teams have faced that problem. In the NFL, at least six stadiums have undergone name changes in recent years, mostly because of corporate financial woes. No longer do the St. Louis Rams play in the Trans World Dome, for example. Now they play in the Edward Jones Dome, named for the brokerage firm.

"It's getting harder to sell them (rights) for long periods of time," Zupancic said. "The companies just don't know where they'll be in 20 years."

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20051225&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=512250447&Ref=AR&Q=80&MaxW=500&MaxH=400&Site=BG&Q=80&Border=0&Title=0
Good visibility: The corporation that buys naming rights to the Colts' stadium will get prime exposure in Downtown Indianapolis.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051225/NEWS01/512250447/1006

Shoppers, residents fill once-'hollow' Downtown

There was no place to park Downtown around 8 p.m. Tuesday -- Circle Centre's garages were full, every metered space was occupied. After 20 minutes, I settled on a pricey alternative.

Better to pay than delay Christmas shopping.

"Isn't that wonderful?" Jacqueline Schmidt purred Wednesday when I told her about how jazzed the heart of the Mile Square is these days. "People used to tell me, 'They will never go back Downtown,' " said Schmidt, 74.

Obviously they did, along with newbies galore -- which is a good reason for a history lesson.

Thirty years ago, even 20 years ago, Downtown was a wasteland. "Hollowed out" is the term used by former Republican Mayor William Hudnut, who served from 1976 to 1991. "I used to say, you can't be a suburb of nothing,"
Hudnut, 73, said Thursday. "I wanted a solid Downtown."

He was not alone. Thousands of players in the public and private sectors shared the vision, said former development director Dave E. Carley, 59, who served in Hudnut's administration.

Carley praised Schmidt's role in particular. "Jacki was the glue" when things really took off, he said. She came here in 1985 on loan from the Department of Housing and Urban Development to negotiate federal grants to pay for projects.

She stayed, initially, at the brand-new Embassy Suites at Illinois and Washington streets -- one of the first pieces in the puzzle's grand scheme.

"I walked from the City-County Building to Embassy Suites every day, and I was never afraid because there was no one to be afraid of. You could shoot a gun down Washington (Street) and never hit a soul," she said.

Actually, guns were fired around deserted Monument Circle in the 1960s. Armed Jaycees, if you can believe it, spent Sunday afternoons on pigeon patrol, dinging birds in an effort to eradicate a pest problem.

Hudnut made jobs his first priority in rebuilding Downtown, but he also stressed housing, a convention center, shopping, interconnected walkways, the canal and sports venues. A major early coup was the decision in 1982 by American United Life Insurance Co., now OneAmerica, to move from Fall Creek Parkway and Meridian Street to the city's center.

Still, nobody stayed Downtown after hours, Carley said -- the few restaurants all closed by 8 p.m. Hardly anybody lived there, either. In the 1960s, the now-exclusive Lockerbie area was a red-light district, and Massachusetts Avenue boasted fortune tellers, Carley said.

Unquestionably, the mall's opening in 1995 was a crowning touch. But that project, proposed in 1979, was maddeningly stalled for years, even after the city had imploded two buildings on Washington Street in 1989 and 1990. A huge hole marked the spot of the future parking garage.

The hole and other obstacles never dissuaded Herb Simon of Simon Property Group, mall developers. He was a true believer, Carley said. "Not many of his staff believed in it, even. He took a lot of heat."

Still, there were laughs. Especially the time reporters showed up at the hole to hear Hudnut answer an opponent's criticism. Always ebullient, he donned a hard hat and jumped into the crater, waving a shovel triumphantly overhead. "We're gonna fill in Hudnut's hole," he hollered.

And we did.

Ruth Holladay's column appears Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday. You can reach her at (317) 444-6405 or via e-mail at ruth.holladay@indystar.com.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051225/COLUMNISTS02/512250443/1006/NEWS01

Cool pic of the stadium. I don't like the parking lots that surround it. I think a few people had said they were displeased with the layout of the stadium, I know I am. I thought, though, that the triangular areas would be park-like, or allow for tailgaters more. Also, anyone hear of any projects being proposed for the area around the stadium. I'd like to see things that are going up around the old MSA site.

Cool pic of the stadium. I don't like the parking lots that surround it. I think a few people had said they were displeased with the layout of the stadium, I know I am. I thought, though, that the triangular areas would be park-like, or allow for tailgaters more. Also, anyone hear of any projects being proposed for the area around the stadium. I'd like to see things that are going up around the old MSA site.

Yeah, I would hope they wouldnt place parking lots right by the stadium. Every other rendering I have seen shows plazas and grass surrounding the stadium. Just for security and safety reasons alone, I highly doubt there will be parking lots right next to the entrance.

I havent heard of any development plans around the new stadium yet. However, since the stadium isnt opening until 2008, I dont think we would hear of anything that is planned until closer to the end of next year. Hopefully the city is actively working with developers on that front.

^^Its about time Indy got whole foods! That always irked me, and I never liked Trader Joe's. And I consider this suburban "infill" at this point. Id rather see this development here than way out in Noblesville. It will be better for the city in the long run.

Yeah, a whole foods would be nice. Completely agree that development here is much preferred to development out in Noblesville. While the city can't control development patterns out in Noblesville, they can in Nora. I'm glad they are somewhat standing up to the nimbys and approving this scaled back plan. The original plan with 8 story condo towers would have been much better and not out of place at all (Do those nimbys realize they are surrounded by 5 million sf of office space and live on one of the busiest corridors in central Indiana?).

An article I found on the web regarding the new Conrad. Its a few months old, but has some good info.


Betting on Heartland Luxury
Indianapolis embraces Conrad

It's a picture-perfect morning June 16 and downtown Indianapolis has its best face on. The sky is cloudless and the sidewalks are rolled up in anticipation of a big event: hoisting of the final beam atop the $100-million Conrad Indianapolis, the city's first true luxury hotel. Media and VIPs cluster in front of the tall, new building as a brass band plays fanfares befitting a state visit— which, in a way, this is. Besides local dignitaries like Mayor Bart Peterson and Al Kite, the lead developer, the city is hosting distinguished visitors such as Dieter Huckestein, president of Hilton Global Alliance, and Christopher Crider, his deputy and vice president of Conrad Hotels. They've come from Beverly Hills, home to Conrad and Conrad co-parent Hilton Hotels Corp. Traveling even farther: General Manager Jan Chovanec, quitting a similar post at the Swissotel Istanbul Bosphorus in Turkey.

The focus of this highly theatrical publicity is the 23-story, 243-unit Conrad Indianapolis scheduled to open next March. It will be the third Conrad in the U.S., following the Conrad Miami and floors 28 to 42 of the Waldorf=Astoria, also known as the Waldorf Towers, in New York City. The first Japanese Conrad opened in Tokyo July 1, and there's one set to open in Phuket, Thailand this year, too. Next year, Conrads are scheduled to open in Las Vegas and Indianapolis, and one will open in Dubai in 2007. Conrad Hotels, a joint venture of Hilton Hotels and British-based Hilton International, aims to more than double its portfolio to 50 hotels by 2010.

This Conrad, at the heart of the nation's largest landlocked city, signals a push to give Conrad Hotels an exalted, modernist profile similar to the one the brand has in Europe and Asia. Advance publicity billed the Conrad Indianapolis as a five-star hotel; that's certainly the hope, particularly now that Conrad has hired Chovanec.

"I want to assure that this hotel becomes a good corporate citizen," Chovanec tells the crowd. "I would like you to feel that the Conrad is your hotel."

In a later telephone interview from Istanbul, Chovanec says there is "a market for quality hotels" in every city. "I have stayed at or visited all the hotels in Indianapolis and I really believe the city deserves a luxury hotel," he says. "We're talking about five-star hotels and we have to be careful. I believe that in the U.S. there are only 31 five-star hotels...You have to have, obviously, the product up to five-star standard, and as for the service, no question. The owners are going to spend a good amount of money to provide us with a wonderful product, so it's up to us to provide the software and breathe the spirit into the building.

"Our aim is to be a five-star hotel. I believe we will get it."

LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION
Located at the northeast corner of Illinois and Washington streets adjacent to the Indianapolis Artsgarden, the Conrad will "set us apart," says Jeff Andrews, director of sales and marketing. Although Indianapolis may not be top of mind as a destination city, it is the nation's 12th-largest with a population of 860,000, and it hosts nationwide events such as the Indianapolis 500, the RCA Tennis championships, the United States Grand Prix, the NFL Combine and the Brickyard 400.

"All these events create their own destination," says Andrews. "Whether it be a convention or event or a weekend getaway, there's always the high-profile customer looking for this type of product." Facilitating the sell: skyways that link downtown Indianapolis so people can go directly from the Conrad to the Indianapolis Convention Center and the Circle Centre Mall without stepping outside.

According to the magazine Heartland Real Estate Business, downtown retail began to revive in 1995 with the opening of the mall. Anchored by a Nordstrom's and the Parisian department stores, the Circle Centre complex spurred retail development. Since 1995, more than 50 new restaurants have opened in the area. Downtown Indianapolis seems thriving. It's also invitingly pedestrian.

Huckestein, the sharply attired chief executive of Conrad Hotels, said the Conrad Indianapolis will cement Conrad's reputation as the hottest "new kid on the block" in luxury hotels. He noted that business travel is back and Conrad will benefit from Hilton's infrastructure and HHonors program, which has 17 million members. "All of our brands are now in Indianapolis," he said, "and that's a hell of an anchor."

After the ceremony, he said it made sense for Conrad to go into Indianapolis, where every major brand is represented. Developing a luxury product with a condominium component also will work, particularly in "the best location in the city."

What struck him during a stroll the night before the ceremony was Indianapolis' "European flavor, a Bostonian flavor," he said. Not only is there a mix of residential, commercial and office development, Huckestein said, the downtown is designed to appeal to people's sense of gregariousness and community.

According to Andrews, the Conrad expects to bank on the brand's global aura to draw customers from St. Louis to New York. Other full-service hotels in downtown Indianapolis, like a Marriott, Omni, Hyatt and Hilton, are running occupancies in the 70s. Still, Andrews suggests, the Conrad will likely cut into their business; the other luxury hotel in town is the Canterbury, an older independent.

Developed by Kite Development Corporation and Mansur Real Estate Services, the Conrad Indianapolis will also contain 30 rental apartments and 15 condos.

According to Kite, who said his company had invested $350 million in downtown Indianapolis development, several condos are still available. The costs are $400,000 to $1 million; the 700- to 1,200-square-foot apartments will rent for about $1 a square foot.

According to the Indianapolis Star, the hotel is expected to generate about $800,000 a year in property taxes—even after an $8.3-million tax break. The city invested $24 million in the project. About 500 workers are involved in construction and the hotel is expected to generate about 250 full-time jobs once it opens.

WHAT' S A CONRAD?
Indianapolis Mayor Bart Peterson billed the Conrad as "a step up in prestige for downtown Indianapolis" in his 2003 State of the City address in 2003, mere months after he selected Kite and Mansur as developers. In July 2004, the city broke ground on the Conrad, finally dedicating the most valuable piece of vacant land downtown.

At the June 16 ceremony, the mayor thanked the weather, "the men and women who built this building," Conrad and Hilton executives and the developers.

"The new Conrad is going to take Indianapolis to the next level as a destination city," said Peterson. "This isn't the end, but the end is in sight."

Two years ago, when the developers suggested the city might be interested in a Conrad, Peterson knew nothing about the brand.

"We had a very attractive block that was originally intended to be the final piece of our downtown shopping mall, but in the early to mid-'90s, negotiations fell through for what was to be an additional department store there," Peterson said in a later interview. In 2000, when he was elected, he decided a more intensive use was called for at that corner, so Indianapolis put out a request for proposal that attracted a developer who wanted to build a rental apartment building. Another proposed a hotel.

In early 2003, when it became clear the apartment building wouldn't work, Peterson contacted the secondplace finisher about the hotel. That plan didn't work, either; then Kite and Mansur "came together and brought the Conrad to me," Peterson said.

"They knew I very much wanted a five-star hotel, but I was thinking of other prominent names, not Conrad. I had never heard of Conrad. There were no Conrads in the United States at that point." So when they told him, he said, "You got to be kidding. What is Conrad?"

Kite and Mansur said Conrad was "a top name around the world and the top of the Hilton line, and the reason you haven't heard of it is it's in 15 cities around the world, with none in the United States." They also said Hilton was rebranding the Waldorf Towers as a Conrad, building one in Miami—and Indianapolis could be the third site.

Since Kite had developed the 615-room Marriott Indianapolis Downtown and Mansur had developed the 424-room Downtown Omni Severin, Peterson took note when both touted Conrad. He looked up the brand in various consumer magazines, and in 2003, spoke with top Hilton executives in Beverly Hills in a trip arranged by the hometown developers.

After a few hours with Huckestein, Hilton Hotels Corp. President and CEO Steve Bollenbach and Hilton Chairman Barron Hilton, "I came away feeling they were serious, and they have been ever since," Peterson said. "I wanted to make sure they weren't saying, what are you doing here? What are you talking about? They were all familiar with the project and they were enthusiastic. It's been a positive experience ever since."

Complex, too, particularly since the city is putting its money where its mouth is by becoming a partner in the Conrad. To develop the building, the city has committed to a staggered, 10-year, 50-percent tax abatement; dedicated future revenues from 384 parking spaces at the Conrad and another 1,500 in an adjacent garage; and agreed to an eight-percent equity investment in the property.

"We own part of the building," the mayor said. "We lose the money if it fails and we make money if it's successful."

Is he worried about the area's other hotels? "All things considered, they would have preferred that we not do this," Peterson said, "but I also think ultimately there was a realization this probably was not going to be competitive because of much more expensive room rates."

Rates at the "Conrad Indianapolis will be commensurate with a luxury property in a midwestern market," says sales and marketing chief Jeff Andrews. "We're putting the rates together, but the best available rates can fluctuate daily." For the most part, they're going to be higher than those of other downtown hotels, he acknowledges, but how much higher will depend "on the day in question.

"In the local market, there's no other hotel of this nature," Andrews says. "We're setting a precedent in terms of service level and rates."

http://www.lhonline.com/article/9114/?SW=indianapolis

Yeah, a whole foods would be nice. Completely agree that development here is much preferred to development out in Noblesville. While the city can't control development patterns out in Noblesville, they can in Nora. I'm glad they are somewhat standing up to the nimbys and approving this scaled back plan. The original plan with 8 story condo towers would have been much better and not out of place at all (Do those nimbys realize they are surrounded by 5 million sf of office space and live on one of the busiest corridors in central Indiana?).


They are so dumb man, its the same here in Louisville. It would be cool to see another tower go up like the Cingular one at Keystone. I think they should build a 20 story condo tower here but thats me.

Why has Indianapolis not pushed condo/apartment build-up along the white river downtown? It provides a view from both directions, 1. white river or 2. a downtown skyline. I would think that money should be used in cleaning up the river and surrounding areas along the river bank to provide a clean river view. This build up along the white river providing it was 18-20 stories would create more depth to the outskirts of the skyline and it would also provide oppotunities to build condo towers between the center and white river. The problem with building up in Indianapolis is providing a view of something other than a corn field, and i feel my idea solves this problem. Curious to get others view on this.

Why has Indianapolis not pushed condo/apartment build-up along the white river downtown? It provides a view from both directions, 1. white river or 2. a downtown skyline. I would think that money should be used in cleaning up the river and surrounding areas along the river bank to provide a clean river view. This build up along the white river providing it was 18-20 stories would create more depth to the outskirts of the skyline and it would also provide oppotunities to build condo towers between the center and white river. The problem with building up in Indianapolis is providing a view of something other than a corn field, and i feel my idea solves this problem. Curious to get others view on this.

IMHO, there are three reasons. First, until very recently, the river was not a place to congregate. That might be changing with the construction of White R. State Park and the very nice promenades near IUPUI and the Zoo. Which leads to the second issue...

Much of the land along the river downtown is given to institutional use. IUPUI, the zoo. IUPUI has recently completed some pretty nice student housing along the river. South of Washington Street, it looks primarily industrial. North of IUPUI might be a good place to start, but I think the water company owns much of that land. The views of downtown from that area would be quite good--it may just be a matter of time before the buildup along the canal reaches that area. But the views to the West...

Are of a rather poor neighborhood, Haughville if Im not mistaken. Maybe nice sunset views, but not necessarily a million-dollar view. But I think in 10-20 years, that are will also change quite rapidly.

I copied the photo below from Google Earth. There actually looks to be quite a bit of room north of the Zoo...but again, that neighborhood isnt in too good of shape, methinks.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c272/cjfjapan/indywhiterivernoshuuhen.jpg

Any other thoughts?

I have long thought the industrial area south of Washington, along the river, could make for some great loft conversions, because I know quite a few of those buildings are abandoned... but that's still a long way away, IMO. There is hardly any commercial or residential development on the southwest edge of downtown and the area is kind of unattractive at the present. LOTS of parking lots. Hopefully when the new stadium and (fingers crossed) light rail get completed, the surrounding area would become a hot spot, and perhaps some of the development/gentrification could spread southward to the area I'm talking about. But for the present there isn't any appeal to living there... it's kind of too far to walk to all the attractions downtown--and besides, I'm not sure I'd want to walk up Kentucky or West Streets in the middle of the night. Not well-lit, not pedestrian-friendly, and certainly doesn't give you the impression of feeling safe.

Are of a rather poor neighborhood, Haughville if Im not mistaken. Maybe nice sunset views, but not necessarily a million-dollar view. But I think in 10-20 years, that are will also change quite rapidly.
Agreed, you can't see much of the skyline once you pass the Michigan Street bridge, and get into the main commercial strip in Haughville. I don't believe Haughville (one of these days I'll do a photo tour of it) is as bad as people make it out to be, it's one of the cities most integrated neighborhoods (I would say around 50% Black, 25% White, 25% Hispanic). It's due for a comeback, but I don't think we would see luxury condos, more market rate. I'm wondering how these lofts are selling in Little Mexico:

http://www.pbase.com/mcc2000/image/35092918.jpg

I found that they converted this building into lofts very interesting because, while Little Mexico has become a great neighborhood, it seems that these would be geared for more upper rent tenants. These lofts aren't too close to downtown (relatively speaking), and there's little transit to link the two.

http://hlauter.com/price.html

I have long thought the industrial area south of Washington, along the river, could make for some great loft conversions, because I know quite a few of those buildings are abandoned... but that's still a long way away, IMO. There is hardly any commercial or residential development on the southwest edge of downtown and the area is kind of unattractive at the present. LOTS of parking lots. Hopefully when the new stadium and (fingers crossed) light rail get completed, the surrounding area would become a hot spot, and perhaps some of the development/gentrification could spread southward to the area I'm talking about. But for the present there isn't any appeal to living there... it's kind of too far to walk to all the attractions downtown--and besides, I'm not sure I'd want to walk up Kentucky or West Streets in the middle of the night. Not well-lit, not pedestrian-friendly, and certainly doesn't give you the impression of feeling safe.

In the city plans. Contact realtor for Lauter Lofts. They have the scoop.

Agreed, you can't see much of the skyline once you pass the Michigan Street bridge, and get into the main commercial strip in Haughville. I don't believe Haughville (one of these days I'll do a photo tour of it) is as bad as people make it out to be, it's one of the cities most integrated neighborhoods (I would say around 50% Black, 25% White, 25% Hispanic). It's due for a comeback, but I don't think we would see luxury condos, more market rate. I'm wondering how these lofts are selling in Little Mexico:

http://www.pbase.com/mcc2000/image/35092918.jpg

I found that they converted this building into lofts very interesting because, while Little Mexico has become a great neighborhood, it seems that these would be geared for more upper rent tenants. These lofts aren't too close to downtown (relatively speaking), and there's little transit to link the two.

When I first saw those they confused me as well. But, they are very isolated, a gated community with no foot traffic at all really, and are a stones throw from Washington st., so they are very downtown accessible. Practically just across the street from the Zoo and White river state park, and very easy access to IUPUI and the Med Center etc.. I'd be willing to bet that they're owned by a lot of Doctors and professionals at IUPUI. Reasonably priced for a luxury condo too. It appears that they're mostly sold, so their target market has been met I suppose.

Simon webcam. Check the HQ progress.


http://www.dukeconstructiononline.com/Simoncam.aspx

Hah, I thoroughly enjoyed that web cam. :D

And I gotta say, I'm jealous of that arts organization you guys picked up. A new museum and convention!
I love Louisville's arts amenities and love that Louisville can attract so much attention with all its fine and performing arts.
And if the convention is even ANYTHING like the St. James Art Show in Louisville, it will do great things for Indy. Again, great news, glad Indy's mayor made the arts such a priority.

And congratulations on the gay rights ordinance!

When I first saw those they confused me as well. But, they are very isolated, a gated community with no foot traffic at all really, and are a stones throw from Washington st., so they are very downtown accessible. Practically just across the street from the Zoo and White river state park, and very easy access to IUPUI and the Med Center etc.. I'd be willing to bet that they're owned by a lot of Doctors and professionals at IUPUI. Reasonably priced for a luxury condo too. It appears that they're mostly sold, so their target market has been met I suppose.


There are several of these kinds of loft developments in "random" areas of Louisville too. In fact, there are two old warehouses going loft literally right next to projects!

What happens is developers find old buildings in good condition, buy them for DIRT cheap, and then get all the federal tax credits for the rehab. The whole loft condo trend is so big right now that reasonably priced ones will sell in any neighborhood. Besides, the Lauter lofts arent at all far from downtown--you are looking at a 5 minute bike ride really. Plus being so close to the park and zoo is really peaceful if you think about it. Its like being in a real chill, quiet neighborhood but having all the amenties of the city a few minutes away. Id rather save money and live in something like this then spend out the ass to live on the circle or something.

I have been saying for years that the area west of the river, "Haughville," is ripe for development. I think that it is just a matter of time before it takes off. There are some nice condos and lofts that were just finished off of Washington Street, west of the zoo.

Fall Creek expansion

Indianapolis, December 29 - One of the most successful urban renewal programs in the nation is expanding.
Right now, Fall Creek Place extends from Fall Creek parkway south to 22nd street. It runs from Pennsylvania on the west to Park Avenue on the east.
The city's latest plan is for a phase four that will take in parts of Broadway Street and College Avenue and add up to 120 new and rehabbed homes.
Justin Ohlemiller of the Dept. of Metropolitan Development says this is the final piece of the puzzle.
"With the great success of the first three phases, it's finishing the job," said Ohlemiller.
He says the city has committed $6.5 million for land acquisition and infrastructure improvements, money the city will get back through the new tax revenue generated.
Investor Don Biddings, who is refurbishing a house, likes the idea of a phase four.
"The whole area is expanding and growing and there's just great demand for homes in the area," said Biddings.
Phases one through three were set to take 6-7 years but they took just four.
The area now boasts some 400 homes, with appreciation reportedly up as much 35 percent.
"It's nice to see the people who made the biggest commitment are getting the biggest reward," said Charles Cagann of Mansu Real Estate.
Cagann is president of Mansur, the master developer. He says plans for phase four include a retail center at 22nd and Delaware offering a bookstore, coffee shop and grocery store.
The concept is to bring some specific neighborhood retailers back to the area.
Live and work condos with residential units above retail or office space are also in the works.
Still some like Margaret Demery are leary of the Fall Creek expansion. Demery, a renter, worries the revitalization could force her out.
"I would like to know if I'm going to lose my apartment or house so I can do something about it ya know," said Demery.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4299309

Still some like Margaret Demery are leary of the Fall Creek expansion. Demery, a renter, worries the revitalization could force her out.
"I would like to know if I'm going to lose my apartment or house so I can do something about it ya know," said Demery.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4299309

Poor thing. You just know she'll never be able to find another apartment to rent....

At any rate, I practically begged a friend of mine to buy property in that area. He declined because as an ER nurse, he'd seen to many violent crime related injuries from that area. I really wish he'd listened to me.

The Economy and the Office Market Continue
to Improve:


http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositories/Base/Markets/Indianapolis/English/Market_Report/PDFs/20053rdquarterOfficeMarketReport.pdf

Downtown projects Q4


http://www.indydt.com/projectlist4thquarter.pdf

http://www.indydt.com/projectlistmap4thquarter.pdf

Downtown Residential Projects Q4

http://www.indydt.com/residentiallist4thquarter.pdf

http://www.indydt.com/residentialmap4thquarter.pdf

Indianapolis Cultural Trail Plans:

http://www.indyculturaltrail.info/

I know I will be in the minority on this one, but I think the Cultural Trail is a waste. The city should focus its efforts on good streetscaping and not attempt to force a recreational trail on an intense urban environment. The logical option is to use bike lanes in urban areas and recreational trails in parks, abandoned rail corridors, along rivers and streams and in rural areas. I think the city only has about 3 total miles of bike lane.

I think the Cultural Trail is a distraction from more visionary and important projects. From the looks of the drawings it may even scar some very important street sections.

I know I will be in the minority on this one, but I think the Cultural Trail is a waste. The city should focus its efforts on good streetscaping and not attempt to force a recreational trail on an intense urban environment. The logical option is to use bike lanes in urban areas and recreational trails in parks, abandoned rail corridors, along rivers and streams and in rural areas. I think the city only has about 3 total miles of bike lane.

I think the Cultural Trail is a distraction from more visionary and important projects. From the looks of the drawings it may even scar some very important street sections.
Let me be the first to tell you that you're wrong. :baeh3:

A very important part of an "intense urban environment" is streetlife. ie; spending your days walking and/or biking aimlessly, sitting in outdoor cafes reading a book or chatting with friends and strangers, hitting a couple bars when it gets late, etc. etc. all the while not having to drive a car. This streetlife, which is prevalent in cities elsewhere in the world, most notably imo in european cities, is sadly lacking in all but a few North American cities. Our "car culture" has had the effect of making too many of our urban centers virtual ghosttowns in the evenings and weekends as we all drive to our cookie cutter mansions on the vinyl frontier. Spend a month in Rome or Amsterdam or Barcelona etc. and you'll see the luxury we're missing.

The Cultural Trail will promote a true urban lifestyle downtown, and while not totally unique to the USA is definitely nonexistent in cities our size. It can be done fairly cheaply too! The route seems to be well planned out, and would be pretty non-intrusive to existing traffic. We definitely don't need more car traffic on those streets.

Oh, and one of the purposes of the Cultural Trail is to link up the many existing trails. ie; the Monon, the White river walk trails, and the Canal walk.

I agree

And as for the developments, highrises probably wont go up west of the river, the skyline doesnt look too impressive from that angle. I would say plan more in the Lockerbie/Riley Towers area or the area immediately southwest of the downtown, they provide the best views and are in need of development

Coming from a visitors point of view, when you have things like recreational trails that create street life and a close, urban feel, it impresses the hell out of out-of-towners. The first time I had ever been to Indy, I was so excited! Granted I was maybe 12, but I was thinking to myself, THEY HAVE A CANAL. I had never seen anything like that. I thought city canals were for Europe. hah
But what got me was all the people walking, jogging, all over the canal. It felt so big city to me.
IMO, recreational trails are not a wase of time at all. While they're nothing new or innovative, they're still impressive to people who think life without a car isn't possible in America. And they make little 12 year old boys think you're one of the coolest cities ever. ;)

The more options a person has of alternative transportation, whether it be walking, biking, or mass transit, the more urban a place becomes. Plus, culture and progressive thinking comes from more human interaction. This is why bigger cities are more progressive and cultured. It's hard to interact with other people when your neighbor is a half mile away or is sitting in another car right next to yours at an intersection. Cultural trails are definately a great concept.

I have been saying for years that the area west of the river, "Haughville," is ripe for development. I think that it is just a matter of time before it takes off. There are some nice condos and lofts that were just finished off of Washington Street, west of the zoo.

Yeah, but do you think this will be the next area to gentrify hardcore? I was thinking the next hot spot to be north of the CBD. I also want to make the point that total gentrification is never good, although you wont be able to tell that to suburbanites.

I would never ever consider Haughville a "dangerous" area. When I lived in Indy I used to ride my bike across the river, even at night, elxporing all around there. I never felt the least bit unsafe. The worst thing that will happen is a guy ask you for change--but heaven forbid he do that lol!!!

Suit to seize land offends lawmakers
Bid aims to pre-empt changes in rules on eminent domain

The Indiana stadium authority went to court Friday to seize the N.K. Hurst bean factory in hopes of pre-empting legislative efforts to make it more difficult for government to take private property.
In response, lawmakers said they are even more determined to change the state's eminent domain rules in the 2006 session of the General Assembly. New laws could make it more difficult for the authority to take over the Hurst property.
The Indiana Stadium and Convention Center Building Authority filed its suit in Marion Superior Court in a bid to move the Hurst company off 4.26 acres the authority wants for parking at the Indianapolis Colts' new stadium. The Hurst family has operated its bean business at 230 W. McCarty St. since 1938 and wants to stay put.
As part of its agreement with the Colts, the authority must provide 3,000 parking spaces. For every spot it doesn't provide within a certain distance of the stadium, the authority must provide twice as many spaces to make up the difference.
That means that if the stadium authority can't get any of the Hurst property, which would allow for 600 parking spots, it would have to spend more money to buy land to provide as many as 1,200 spaces.
Authority Chairman David Frick said the lawsuit was filed on the last business day of 2005 to lock in the current year's law.
The authority filed two other lawsuits this month -- one over a 2.3-acre lot at Capitol Avenue and South Street, the other over a small lot that contained a piano store near the Hurst building.
Legislators bristled at news of the Hurst suit.
"It's highly suspicious and disingenuous," said Sen. Jeff Drozda, R-Westfield, who served on a legislative committee that studied eminent domain issues. "Filing on the last business day of the year with the sole intent to circumvent the legislative process is troubling."
The Indiana General Assembly's interest in tightening state laws on eminent domain surfaced after a controversial U.S. Supreme Court decision this year that allowed cities to condemn homes and businesses for private development projects. Congress is pursuing the issue, as well.
Rep. David A. Wolkins, R-Winona Lake, who led the eminent domain study committee, plans to sponsor legislation that would make it more difficult for governments to take private land.
The bill would allow governments to seize land only when there's no reasonable alternative -- an idea sparked by the Hurst case. Wolkins said he likely would make the bill retroactive so it would apply to the Hurst situation because he believes the stadium can fulfill its parking obligations elsewhere.
"I'm disgusted," Wolkins said Friday. "For them to fire a shot across the bow like this . . . "
The stadium authority and the Hurst family have been in negotiations for months over the future of the property, which is in the southeast part of the 40-acre stadium site.
Frick said he remains hopeful that an agreement can be reached to allow the company to stay, and that the two sides would keep negotiating even as the lawsuit proceeds.
He said getting the legal ball rolling is important to keeping the project on track. The $500 million stadium is set to open for the 2008 football season, and the Hurst property occupies space for parking spots the authority says it needs to meet its commitment with the Colts. Construction hasn't been delayed because of this stalemate.
"This is a critical piece of land needed to make the stadium work," Frick said.
According to the lawsuit, the Hurst Co. has refused offers to sell the property. The authority said in its court documents that it needs the property for public use.
Frick said Friday that the stadium authority has offered the Hurst family $3.7 million for its building and land and a chance to keep its business on the site -- although the authority's June offer letter of $3.7 million mentions nothing about staying.
"This has never been about money. We want to stay," said company President Rick Hurst.
Company Vice President Jim Hurst said he is surprised -- and offended -- by the court action because he thought negotiations had been progressing. "Our business is again under direct threat," he said.
The authority, he said, offered to let the Hursts keep 1.4 acres of their land, but that offer is unworkable, he said.
"You couldn't even turn a truck in that amount of space," Jim Hurst said. "That offer was laughable."
The authority responded by offering 1.7 acres, but that, too, is insufficient for the business, the family says.
Company officials, Jim Hurst said, have offered alternatives to the stadium authority, including a land swap, but all have been rejected.
Lawyers for the authority sent the Hursts an ultimatum Dec. 22. In a memo written by Zeff A. Weiss of Ice Miller, the law firm representing the authority, the Hursts were told the stadium authority would sue by year's end unless they agreed to abide by existing eminent domain law if talks broke down.
Five days later, the Hursts sent a memo back, saying they didn't want "to be part of an effort to frustrate or circumvent the will of the legislature."


I am curious to hear everybody's take on this issue. I understand that eminent domain is needed at times, but it seems to me that there could be a compromise in this situation.

^^^Thats rediculous. the stadium needs to be built and this little company can be moved close by. I think its fine as long as they are bought out fairly.

The company has stated that they wouldn't be able to afford the cost for relocation.(True or not, I don't know) I would just hate to see a locally owned company forced out of business unless there is absolutely no other possible course of action. These cases are tough because you don't know who to believe. Is this government strong arming the little man or is this a company trying to squeeze the government for more cash?

And didnt the article say that the stadium board needed the land for a parking lot? How exactly will that jeopardize the project? People can walk...

And didnt the article say that the stadium board needed the land for a parking lot? How exactly will that jeopardize the project? People can walk...
It doesn't jeopardize it obviously, but there are two factors that are being overlooked that are important to those in power.

1.) Tailgating. This will be the tailgating lot and will be used for promotion and publicity by the media and the Colts. the whole tailgating and barbecue "culture" is very important to NFL tradition.

2.) This is a half billion dollar project, and while the main Hurst building is attractive, most of their complex is not. Large numbers of big 18 wheeler semi's aren't attractive either. The people in power don't want anything to take away from the sightlines of their half billion dollar showpiece.

Also, this latest action is more of an attempt to subvert any new eminent domain laws than anything else. The state legislature is poised to pass laws to make it harder to take private property by eminent domain, and taking this action before the new year ensures that the city won't have to abide by any new statutes. A deal can still be reached.

I wish I really knew what was going on here, but I think that N.K. Hurst has a price they're shooting for. They may be attempting to squeeze the authorities for more cash than they need... but maybe not. They may genuinely need more than they've been offered.

It's worth noting that Hurst stands to gain a great deal of free national publicity if they stay...

At any rate, I think they'll eventually come to an equitable agreement, and Hurst will move. With all the publicity this has generated, the city can't treat them unfairly.

While I can understand the desire for a more attractive environment and a place to tailgate, it whole thing leaves kind of a bad taste in my mouth.

Hurst should be able to enjoy the fruits of increasing property values the new stadium will bring. And while I understand the "tradition" of tailgating, the Colts only play about 10 games a year in Indy, right? Ten afternoons a year for people to barbecue dead animals and drink fermented hops and barley in a parking lot, or a family business? :)

Im being a jerk, I know. I hope Hurst gets a satisfactory sum from this deal, and I hope some of the "grit" of the neighrborhood can remain. No need to make it too too shiny.

I'm all for the small family businesses. i hope it'll all be worked out fairly. I think the colts are screwing the city over with this contract... i mean, a certain amount of parking space within a certain area or the city is fined? give me a break.

Anyone know how I can find out what a demolition/construction project is? At least 2 acres on Washington street just East of 65/70 are in the process of being cleared of blighted buildings. The property was recently for sale. This is in the Holy Cross area, on the south side of Washington street, between Highland and Oriental.

I'm hoping that it's a new grocery or even a big box store.. downtown sure needs it, and the site is big enough...

indygov.org

go to services, then permits. On the permits page, there is a "permit research" tab. If you know the address, it should be easy. You will be looking for something like "WRK-05...or PRJ-05."

If no adress then go to the "maps" section and then navigate to the parcel. Click on the parcel, and it should give you details about it including address.

indygov.org

go to services, then permits. On the permits page, there is a "permit research" tab. If you know the address, it should be easy. You will be looking for something like "WRK-05...or PRJ-05."

If no adress then go to the "maps" section and then navigate to the parcel. Click on the parcel, and it should give you details about it including address.
Wow. thanks for that. It was easy enough to map the property... and it's bigger than I thought. It spans the whole area between Washington and Southeastern. The address is actually 1214 Southeastern Ave. Here it is:

http://www.oingyboingy.com/images/1214southeastern.JPG

However, the only recent permits I can find are:

1. 1214 SOUTHEASTERN AVE SWR05-03963 1026399 ED TILLER & COMPANY
Case No.: SWR05-03963
Received Date: 11/04/2005
Status: ISS
Issued Date: 11/04/2005
Name: ED TILLER & COMPANY INC
Expiration Date: 05/03/2006
Description:COMMERCIAL SEWER DISCONNECT FOR DEMO OF BUILDING AT EASEMENT, A WRECKING PERMIT MUST BE OBTAINED; EMERGENCY CONTACT: ED TILLER #507-1952

2. 1214 SOUTHEASTERN AVE WRK05-00558 1026399 ED TILLER & COMPANY
Case No.:WRK05-00558
Received Date: 11/04/2005
Status: FIN
Issued Date: 11/04/2005
Name: ED TILLER & COMPANY
Expiration Date: 12/04/2005
Finaled Date: 12/20/2005
Description:DEMOLITION OF PRINCIPAL STRUCTURE / DISCONNECT LETTERS ON FILE / CENTER TWP /

It doesn't give info on the project for either one. the People listed are:
AGT
ALVA ED TILLER
22708 CRAIG AV
NOBLESVILLE
IN
46060
317 5071952

OWN(er?)
WASHINGTON ST PROPERTIES LLC
8035 CASTLETON RD
INDPLS
IN
46250
317-842-4941

WRK
ED TILLER & COMPANY
22708 CRAIG AV
NOBLESVILLE
IN
46060
317 5071952

Now how do I figure out what exactly they're planning to do with it? For the longest time, I've thought that this location would be ideal for a grocery and/or a big box store.. Access on both Washington and southeastern, Downtown location, little competition in the general area... I've got my fingers crossed.

indygov.org

go to services, then permits. On the permits page, there is a "permit research" tab. If you know the address, it should be easy. You will be looking for something like "WRK-05...or PRJ-05."

If no adress then go to the "maps" section and then navigate to the parcel. Click on the parcel, and it should give you details about it including address.
By searching that site a bit more, I discovered that when my next door neighbor had a rat infestation, reported to the health department by another neighbor (not me I swear) he pointed the finger at me. The health department investigated me without my knowledge and found no violations.

So... I'm wondering if I should report him running his large painting business out of his garage... is that a violation in a residential neighborhood? He does work on the property, and stores all his trucks and equipment there... He's got the only non-rehabbed property on the block now, and has no plans to sell or rehab..

He's zoned D8. I don't think he running it legally..

Any updates on the rail project or any prelimenary maps? It would be cool to see possible layouts of the project.

Any updates on the rail project or any prelimenary maps? It would be cool to see possible layouts of the project.
Still hush hush. Wait until this year's General Assembly heats up. the indystar ran an editorial bemoaning the lack of support for Indygo today... they usually run things like this mysteriously just before major initiatives that address the problem are introduced... odd how it works like that...

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060103/OPINION/601030357/1002

Moochie-

You are permittedto operate a "home occupation," but it is supposed to basically function without being noticed. So, what you describe easily could warrant a zoning inspector coming out. Contact the zoning inspector for your area at 327-8400, or 327-4MAC.

As for rail, as I mentioned, expect this to become a politcal issue for the next mayorial election (news should hit around June-ish). I just so happen to be going to an RTA meeting this morning up in Carmel.

Moochie-

You are permittedto operate a "home occupation," but it is supposed to basically function without being noticed. So, what you describe easily could warrant a zoning inspector coming out. Contact the zoning inspector for your area at 327-8400, or 327-4MAC.

As for rail, as I mentioned, expect this to become a politcal issue for the next mayorial election (news should hit around June-ish). I just so happen to be going to an RTA meeting this morning up in Carmel.
I'm thinking it's not worth it... yet. He's a 75 year old man, and has been given offers to sell, but he's not biting, but I know he doesn't want to work much longer either. I'll be patient.

I walked around the Washington/Southeastern property tonight, and it is pretty darn big. Definitely large enough to hold a mid to large sized grocery, with street access on 3 sides. Someone sure is spending a lot of money to clear it for something.. Maybe it's not huge news, but I'd sure like to know what's going on.

Hey Moochie, you sound like me. It drives me crazy when I see construction or demolition and there's no sign to tell you what's going on. I agree that a grocery or box store would be great for the growing downtown population. Let us know if you find out any specifics.

Moochie, it seems strange that you are so eager to see a big-box locate downtown. Big-box retail stores are by definition anti-urban and would be bad for downtown. I would love to see a discount retail store such as Target locate downtown, however, it should take on an urban form. This means multiple floors and structured parking.

Let me be the first to tell you that you're wrong. :baeh3:

A very important part of an "intense urban environment" is streetlife. ie; spending your days walking and/or biking aimlessly, sitting in outdoor cafes reading a book or chatting with friends and strangers, hitting a couple bars when it gets late, etc. etc. all the while not having to drive a car. This streetlife, which is prevalent in cities elsewhere in the world, most notably imo in european cities, is sadly lacking in all but a few North American cities. Our "car culture" has had the effect of making too many of our urban centers virtual ghosttowns in the evenings and weekends as we all drive to our cookie cutter mansions on the vinyl frontier. Spend a month in Rome or Amsterdam or Barcelona etc. and you'll see the luxury we're missing.

The Cultural Trail will promote a true urban lifestyle downtown, and while not totally unique to the USA is definitely nonexistent in cities our size. It can be done fairly cheaply too! The route seems to be well planned out, and would be pretty non-intrusive to existing traffic. We definitely don't need more car traffic on those streets.

Oh, and one of the purposes of the Cultural Trail is to link up the many existing trails. ie; the Monon, the White river walk trails, and the Canal walk.

Moochy,

Obviously you've missed my point. No where did I say that walking or biking is not important in a city. I agree that street life is important and very rare. My point is that a multi-use trail is not appropriate in all areas.

I’d prefer to see bike lanes downtown (in the mile square) rather than multi-use trails for three reasons. Pedestrian traffic on sidewalks and a multi-use trails is redundant. Exclusive bicycle traffic on bike lanes and pedestrian traffic on sidewalks is preferable to mixed traffic on a mixed-use trail. Lastly, I believe bike lanes would have aesthetic benefits over a multi-use trail.

Don't get me wrong, I love Indy’s greenway system and I think the city should continue to develop it. I just feel the city needs to consider a different facility for downtown. :)

Moochie, it seems strange that you are so eager to see a big-box locate downtown. A big-box retail store is by definition anti-urban and would be bad for downtown. I would love to see a discount retail store such as Target locate downtown, but it should take on an urban form. This means multiple floors and structured parking.
You're unfamiliar with the neighborhood. It's just outside the mile square, and is seriously blighted, and has been for many decades. Any new developement is good news in this area, and due to the fact that it's a mile from the Circle, the need for multi-story isn't there. It's all vacant lots, rundown warehousing and pure urban grit.

But, due to it's close proximity and super quick and easy access to downtown, if any new one story big box or groceries were to be opened, you couldn't ask for a better location imho. I really don't want to see a walmart go up in the mile square...

No, I am familiar with this neighborhood. I grew up on the southeast side and passed through the area every time I visited downtown. I suppose any development is preferable to no development but don't think it's an either or proposition. Urban forms should be viable in all areas of a city.

It seems to me that we need to stop relegating urban development to areas that are historically urban and areas with high levels of pre-existing wealth or density. If we continue to do so, we will have a static amount of urban development and the rest will be low density suburban crap. This area has the advantage of low property costs and proximity to downtown. It would be an excellent area for a developer to assemble land, and work with the city to do an innovative, New Urban development.

I was on SSP today looking at the Indy diagram. What is Pennsylvania Street Hotel and Condiminiums? It suposed to mixed use and 30 stories. I've never seen this one there before. How long has this been talked about?

I was on SSP today looking at the Indy diagram. What is Pennsylvania Street Hotel and Condiminiums? It suposed to mixed use and 30 stories. I've never seen this one there before. How long has this been talked about?
It's been talked about for quite a while, but only made press a few months ago.. Early October to be more specific. The IBJ link in post #17 is now dead unfortunately... but here it is:

Bye-bye blight?
Developers grabbing parcels east of Circle Centre mall

By Tammy Lieber
IBJ Reporter

Several groups are floating plans and crunching numbers for downtown hotel or condo projects east of Circle Centre mall, an area that has been largely passed over for new developments in recent years.

One of the more imminent projects is a large mixed-use development for the quarter-block at Maryland and Pennsylvania streets, now occupied by surface parking lots and a 9,000-square-foot office building.

A group that includes local developer J. Greg Allen has four separate parcels at the corner under contract from the owners, who have jointly marketed their properties for several years.

The purchase of some of those parcels, including the Omega Communications building at 29 E. Maryland St., are expected to close in the coming weeks.

Brokers declined to say exactly who has the corner under contract, but other sources identified Allen, a residential and commercial developer known mostly for projects on the south side of Indianapolis and in Greenwood. Gary Perel of locally based Urban Space Commercial Properties represents three of the property owners on the corner, and Todd Maurer of locally based Halakar Real Estate represents the owner of the Omega building.

Allen did not return calls seeking comment, but Perel said the buyer has plans for a mixed-use project that could include hotel, condominium and/or retail aspects.

Others said plans call for a high-rise tower on the site, perhaps as tall as 30 stories.

That's not surprising given the price of downtown land, Perel said.

"That makes sense if you take into account the sales price for the parcel," he said. "You would have to go vertical to make any money."

Perel declined to divulge the contract price of the four parcels, which total about one acre.

Others said land near the heart of downtown could fetch from $2 million to $4 million per acre.

Owners of the quarter-block under contract include a local partnership affiliated with the nearby Hampton Inn, which uses the lot for hotel parking; the Bloomington-based owners of the nearby Harness Factory Lofts; a local parking lot operator; and Bob Schloss, whose Omega Communications makes its headquarters in the lone building on the site.

Schloss is a shareholder in IBJ Corp., which owns Indianapolis Business Journal.

Several parties have looked at the corner in recent years, but none have succeeded in purchasing it. Locally based Simon Property Group Inc. twice considered the site for a new headquarters building, once in 1998 and again last year before the company landed a site across from the Statehouse on Capitol Commons.

If the purchase of that quarter-block closes, Allen could become the first of several developers to make a go of redeveloping property in that area.

Groups are said to be eyeing several nearby corners with plans to develop condos, hotels or a combination of both.

One local partnership until early October had five buildings at the northwest corner of Washington and Pennsylvania streets under contract from the individual owners. The group planned to demolish the hodge-podge of low-rise retail/office buildings, most of them in various states of disrepair, on the site.

Plans called for a high-rise condo tower on the site before developers abandoned the project because of competition from other downtown condo projects and the developer's plans elsewhere, said Bob Peterson, one of the partners.

"We decided to kind of let that [site] go at this point," Peterson said. "It's still a good site in a great location."

Peterson and his partners recently purchased the 85-acre Britton Golf Course on State Road 37 between Fishers and Noblesville with plans for a retail development. They also develop water parks in other states under the Wild River Development name.

The condo project was unlikely to receive the same level of city incentives as other downtown projects, including the Conrad Hotel and Residences at Washington and Illinois streets, Peterson said, and that would've made the project difficult to finance. He declined to divulge the contract price of the five buildings.

In late September, Ted Antonopoulas, who represents the owner of 36 E. Washington St., said that three-story building was under contract for $550,000.

Hotel boom

Other sites in the area are being or have recently been considered for hotels, several real estate observers said. Those include the Zipper Building at Washington Street and Virginia Avenue and the long-vacant Consolidated Building on Pennsylvania between Market and Ohio streets.

Developers are beginning to look forward to the coming expansion of the Indiana Convention Center. Even though that's not slated to be finished until 2010, site acquisition, financing and construction could eat up much of that time, said Mark Eble, a locally based hotel consultant with Atlanta-based PKF Consulting.

In recent years, major hotel companies such as Hilton Hotels and Marriott International have introduced new brands to the downtown market, but Eble said a growing number of developers are considering projects not tied to a national franchise brand.

"That's no longer the kiss of death," Eble said of non-national-branded hotels, noting consumers have accepted such hotels in other cities. "The biggest headache is financing. It's very hard to get a loan on a hotel that is not branded."

He predicted more developers would consider hotels downtown as marketing for One Market Square heats up, creating more competition among developers for condo buyers. That project, on the site of the former Market Square Arena, will offer 208 condos in a 31-story tower in its first phase.

Condos on Washington?

On the north side of Washington Street east of Meridian, a partnership led by Summit Realty Group principals Bill Ehret and John Demaree are still working on plans for four parcels of real estate they own between the King Cole building and the Victoria Centre.

"We're working on putting together something a little bigger," Demaree said, declining to elaborate. "We're just not there yet."

Designs for condo buildings at that end of the block have been floating around for at least six years, but none have ever come to fruition. Last fall, locally based Britton Building and Design purchased the McOuat building at 14 E. Washington St. and said it would convert it to condos. But three months later the 7-story building was sold to Ehret and Demaree's partnership.

"We felt that with the Conrad [residences] going in, there were only so many millionaires in this town," said Britton principal Patrick Heitz.

Britton purchased the building from local attorney Steven Tuchman for $830,000 and sold it to TOP Property Investors LLC, led by Ehret and Demaree, for $1.03 million, according to Center Township Assessor's records.

Less than a month later, a different partnership including Ehret and Demaree, Uptown Realty Investors LLC, paid $900,000 for a small building at 10 E. Washington St., formerly home to H&H Mart.

Parking shortage an obstacle

A lack of available parking is one of the oft-cited factors hindering redevelopment of the north side of the block. None of the buildings on the north side includes parking, an essential component particularly for residential redevelopment, Evans and others said.

The parking situation could ease soon, however, with a five-level garage planned at 120 E. Washington St., between the 110 East Washington condo building and the Disciples of Christ office building.

That garage is being built by a partnership that includes local firms Sideline Parking and Hagerman Construction, said Sideline principal Shawn W. Cannon. The 300-space garage will include a lower level reserved for residents of the condo building next door and four levels of above-ground parking.

Along with parking, high asking prices for dilapidated buildings on the block also have been obstacles to redevelopment.

For years, the city has tried to push development on the north side of the block between Meridian and Washington streets. Former Mayor Steve Goldsmith in the late 1990s investigated pursuing acquisition of many of the buildings through eminent domain, but dropped that plan when property owners balked.

Mayor Bart Peterson's administration also has tried to promote development on the block, but "the challenges are always going to be parking and how does that work," said Gordon Hendry, Peterson's director of economic development.

Several development teams have approached the city over the years with plans for redeveloping the north side of that block, but Hendry said he believes the time may be coming soon for one or more projects to stick.

"It's really a question of timing, and are people ready to make the investment to improve that block. We think the market conditions are pretty good now," he said, citing the coming convention center expansion and new stadium as drivers for retail and mixed-use projects.

"When the time is right, the city will definitely be working on these projects," he said. "Whatever we can do to promote the success of these projects, we'll do."

You're unfamiliar with the neighborhood. It's just outside the mile square, and is seriously blighted, and has been for many decades. Any new developement is good news in this area, and due to the fact that it's a mile from the Circle, the need for multi-story isn't there. It's all vacant lots, rundown warehousing and pure urban grit.

But, due to it's close proximity and super quick and easy access to downtown, if any new one story big box or groceries were to be opened, you couldn't ask for a better location imho. I really don't want to see a walmart go up in the mile square...

This area is very close to my former high school, so I know it well. I really like the residential boom that is taking place in this area, namely on vermont street, highland, and new york. It would be nice to see the entire neighborhood become "new again homes" as the signs say. Also in the general area, what is that mess on New York street over the railroad tracks heading east?

Thanks moochie I'd forgotten about that post.

This area is very close to my former high school, so I know it well. I really like the residential boom that is taking place in this area, namely on vermont street, highland, and new york. It would be nice to see the entire neighborhood become "new again homes" as the signs say. Also in the general area, what is that mess on New York street over the railroad tracks heading east?
You went to Tech? So did I. Part time anyway. Did you ever have Ms. Parker for English? "Read, Read, Read and Read some more"...

I think the neighborhood will take off like a rocket when the Market street ramps come down. The woman who owns "New Again" recently moved in to a rehab a stones throw from Holy Cross church if that tells you anything about the viability of the neighborhood... That "mess on New York Street" says quite a bit as well. It's part of a "mammoth drainage initiative" for the entire neighborhood. In other words, all of the Holy Cross neighborhood is finally getting working street sewers. Highland Park has been excavated and will be on top of a huge drainage basin. rainwater will be diverted from the Holy Cross Neighborhood to the basin under Highland Park and from there will be (slowly) drained into pogues run where it goes underground at New York street... and eventually empties into white river. It will be finished this spring.

The following is from e-mails between myself and a DPW representative on 3/25/2005. I have his e-mail address and phone number if you want it.

"DPW and its contractors are embarking on a mammoth drainage
initiative over a significant portion of Highland Park. The work is expected to
take between 11 to 13 months to complete. Temporary construction fencing has been put up in place of some permanent fencing around and/or in the park."

"The drainage initiative will help relieve the current sewer system situation in the neighborhood. If you have any further questions, please feel free to give us a call or you're more than welcome to e-mail me back (if you like). Thanks for your inquiry! :-)"

CUMBERLAND
Getting a face-lift
Streetscape, Pennsy Trail work could begin within a year

By Bill McCleery
bill.mccleery@indystar.com
Florist Bonnie Messmore has heard talk for 20 years about ideas to save Cumberland's small-town charm from suburban sprawl.

"They want it to be a little town, a little something like Zionsville," said Messmore, as she took down Christmas decorations.
Though supportive of local officials' efforts, Messmore said she has seen few tangible results from the years of planning.
Town Council member Mark Reynolds has promised that Messmore and others won't have to wait much longer.
Construction of a $1.3 million redesigned streetscape -- grassy medians in the middle of Washington Street in parts of the town, ornamental street lighting and other effects -- should begin in about a year, he said.
Site work for the recreational Pennsy Trail, along three miles of a former railroad route, also could start at about the same time. That project will cost about the same as the streetscape: $1.2 million.
On both projects, federal funds will cover 80 percent of the cost.
"You're going to see big changes out here," Reynolds said. "These are amenities to the Eastside that will make people want to live and work and build here."
Already, officials have adopted development standards aimed at ensuring that new businesses along Washington Street in Cumberland complement the pedestrian-friendly "Main Street" style of architecture dominant in Cumberland's older portions.
Last month, the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission designated a portion of Cumberland in Marion County as a "conservation district." The designation gives the Preservation Commission authority to review all new development in the district, said Emily Mack, a planner with the commission.
"In historic areas, we have a lot of new construction," Mack said. "We don't discourage new development, but we encourage sensitive new development that ultimately will help stabilize the historic area and protect what's there."
In anticipation of the new standards, town officials negotiated agreements last year with a developer bringing a Walgreens store to the corner of Washington Street and German Church Road.
(A Dairy Queen at the site will be torn down and rebuilt just south of the Walgreens.)
The developer agreed to a shorter setback distance from Washington Street and smaller ground-level signs rather than the pole sign originally intended.
Cumberland, with its population of about 6,000, straddles the Hancock-Marion county line. Anna Pea has lived here since 1990 and now serves on the town's Plan Commission. That panel has jurisdiction only in Cumberland's Hancock County portions.
"With everything that we have going on, I think we're definitely going to improve the quality of life," Pea said. "We're going to create an identity."
She believes older homes in Cumberland will become hot commodities, with existing homeowners taking greater interest in renovations.
"When people can start seeing the streetscape and the trail, then things will really pick up," Pea said.
She also predicted a new wave of interesting shops for the town's commercial area.
Reynolds agreed.
"People will really notice a difference with new construction and renovations," he said. "(They will see) new buildings up closer to the streets, like the old buildings. We'll fill in a lot of the gaps, almost like teeth missing in the development of town. (The standards) will create a more harmonious and better-looking community."
Officials were wise to establish the new development standards when they did, he said. He thinks the town is on the verge of significant commercial development.
The Town Council has adopted a "National Road overlay" plan for the town's Hancock County portion that basically extends the spirit of the conservation district existing in the Marion County portion.
Messmore's flower shop embodies the kind of quaintness one might expect in a small-town setting. Two caged parakeets and a cockatiel greet visitors as they walk into the business.
Messmore offered two suggestions for town planners: Make traffic go slower through town, and plant new trees downtown rather than save all the old ones.
The old trees, she said, drop heavy branches that can damage roofs.
"We found that out," she said.

FedEx looks to expand in Indy
Talks are under way with airport officials, but the proposal's scope is unknown

Package delivery giant FedEx Corp. is in talks with the Indianapolis International Airport to expand its operations here, airport officials said Monday.
Those officials would not discuss the scope of the proposed expansion, which involves developing more space for the company to park planes and, therefore, move more freight.
Airport officials are examining what steps might be needed for FedEx to expand its 300-acre facility. They hope to conclude their study within about 60 days.
The Memphis-based carrier, which keeps its second-largest air hub here, located the facility here in 1987 and completed a $256 million expansion in 1999.
News of the negotiations comes about a year after state transportation officials completed a $170 million overhaul of I-70. That project was meant to give FedEx more airport space and create a new entrance for a planned passenger terminal between the current main runways.
"We can confirm that, as we hoped when we planned that project, the operating staff of the airport is in active discussions with FedEx to develop additional property as aircraft apron space," Lacy M. Johnson, president of the Indianapolis Airport Authority, said in a prepared statement.
Paula Bosler, a FedEx spokeswoman, declined comment on the company's plans. "We don't comment on expansion projects until they are announced" by the company, Bosler said.
She noted that the existing facility operates at nearly full capacity at times, such as the December holiday shopping season.
The company moves more than 400,000 packages on roughly 50 flights through the airport nightly and employs 5,000 full- and part-time workers in Indianapolis.
Call Star reporter Theodore Kim at (317) 444-6247.

I don't know if it has been mentioned here yet, but the Old Navy dowtown is closing. I have been told by my Simon firend that is not due to low sales, but high over-head. Old Navy, and its parent company Gap, are in serious financial trouble and are looking to close a number of its stores/brands. Three Old Navy's are closing in the City as of right now. I hope that something comes in and replaces it sooner than later. I would think that with the Conrad opening across the street, the visibility of the site and easy access would make it a hot spot for another retailer.

Hey cwilson, could you or possibly someone else take some pictures of Cumberland and post them, or direct me to a website with pictures. I'd love to see what it currently looks like. I am really excited to hear the things proposed. As many times as I've been around Indy, I've never made it to Cumberland. I had always thought it was just a dot on a map, kind of like Acton or Julietta (anybody familiar with these places?). It sounds much more significant. Great work and keep it up!

Kosene condo plan rankles residents
Broad Ripple developments would undermine character of village, neighborhood groups say

Kosene & Kosene Residential LLC wants to follow the success of its sold-out Monon Row condominium project in Broad Ripple with two new projects. But it’s facing strong opposition from nearby residents, who say the high-density projects are out of step with the small-town character of the village.

The Indianapolis-based developer is seeking rezoning that would allow it to build 23 condos at 66th and Ferguson streets and 28 condos along the Monon Trail south of Broad Ripple. Buildings would be 2-1/2 to three stories high. Condos would start at about $200,000.

The separate petitions are both scheduled for a Jan. 12 city hearing. Two neighborhood organizations have voted to oppose both plans, and the developer may face a horde of remonstrators when the cases are heard.

“I’m totally aghast at these two plans,” said Ann Kaplan, owner of Artifacts Gallery at 6327 Guilford Ave. “This is pure greed.”

For Kosene, which recently wrapped up the five-phase, 75-unit Monon Row project, the stringent opposition comes as a surprise.

“We’re shocked,” said Kosene principal Tadd Miller. The developer worked with the Broad Ripple Village Association on the Monon Row project, making design and other changes but facing no significant opposition, Miller said.

This time around, BRVA voted to oppose both plans.

“It seems like their whole philosophy has changed,” Miller said of the organization.

Opposition is largely based on the projects’ proposed density—23 units on 0.76 acre at 66th and Ferguson and 28 units on 1.43 acres along the Monon Trail. Residents and landowners also object that the plans are out of step with a Broad Ripple Village land use plan adopted by the city in 1997.

That plan recommends low-density, mixed-use development for the 66th Street site and low-density residential for the second site, on Winthrop Avenue just north of 61st Street.

As proposed, the buildings also wouldn’t fit well with the surrounding neighborhoods, opponents said.

Plans call for the $5 million 66th Street project to be clustered in five buildings resembling the Monon Row condos—three-story buildings with garages on the first floor and two-story living units above. Neighboring buildings are mostly small, one- and two-story frame houses and offices.

On Winthrop Avenue, Kosene’s $7.5 million plan calls for 28 units in 10 buildings. Those buildings are designed to resemble Craftsman-style bungalows common in Broad Ripple and other north-side neighborhoods. Those facing Winthrop Avenue would be clustered in doubles, with other buildings facing an interior courtyard or the Monon Trail containing more units.

Garages would be underneath the living spaces, but would be excavated to reduce the height of the buildings, according to the latest version of plans filed in late December.

As of IBJ deadline, city staffers had not made a recommendation on the zoning petitions.

Both sites currently have houses and/or small office/retail buildings on them, which would be torn down.

From Kosene’s perspective, the condo projects would increase home ownership in an area with an abundance of absentee landlords and 20-somethings attracted by the stumbling-home proximity to Broad Ripple’s nightclubs and bars.

The site on Winthrop, Miller noted, includes abandoned cars and trash that would be removed along with the houses if the condo project is approved.

The projects would also give Kosene more supply of what has proven to be one of its most popular condo offerings, Miller said. The developer also has several developments on the east side of downtown Indianapolis and elsewhere near Broad Ripple.

“Monon Row has kind of been our showpiece,” he said of the condos, which sold for $150,000 to $300,000.

But from opponents’ perspective, Kosene’s high-density condos would further chip away at the already-eroding small-town feel of the village and change the character of the neighborhood that drew them there in the first place.

Existing large-scale Broad Ripple condo developments, including Monon Row and the Reserve, lie on the northern edge of the village’s boundaries and aren’t as intrusive, said Linda Shikani, owner of Marigold clothing boutique and a member of the BRVA board who voted against the new proposals. She said she was not on the board when Monon Row was approved.

The two new plans, by contrast, are in an existing residential area and an area where many homes have been converted into businesses, she said.

As proposed, Kosene’s buildings would “dwarf all the other houses,” she said.

Shikani and Kaplan said they will oppose Kosene’s plans at the Jan. 12 hearing, despite the fact the projects might increase their pool of potential customers.

“I’m never against more customers,” Shikani said. “[But] I’ve been here 16 years. People come for what’s here, whether they live here or not.”

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=IBJ/2006/01/09/37/Img/Pc0370300.jpg

http://tampa.ibj.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SUJKLzIwMDYvMDEvMDkjQXIwMDEwMg==&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom

^^Those NIMBYs make it sound like someone is building a 100 story tower in Broad Ripple.

Suite lowdown: Fanciest new ones to cost $275,000

Watching the Colts play from the comfort of a suite at the new Indiana Stadium will cost a minimum of $40,000 a year.

That price, however, won't get you one of the super suites, which will feature 50-inch, flat-screen TVs, an oversized bar and private bathrooms.

For that kind of luxury, be prepared to write a check for $275,000.

The new stadium will offer suites that are bigger, fancier and technologically cooler than those in the aging RCA Dome. But in exchange for the extras, including, on average, an additional 127 square feet of room, suite owners will pay about 17 percent more than they do now. RCA Dome suites range from $34,200 to $235,000 annually.

Colts marketing staffers already are working to sell the new stadium's 142 suites -- 38 more than in the RCA Dome -- though the building is still three seasons from opening. Given that the waiting list for a suite in the Dome is 25 companies deep, the Colts are confident of a sellout by the time the new stadium opens in 2008.

Although the starting price for a suite would drain a year's worth of income for a lot of Hoosier families, $40,000 (which will buy you an eight-seat suite) is practically a bargain by National Football League standards. However, at $275,000 a year, the Colts' 36-seat super suites are priced well above the NFL average, according to Revenues from Sports Venues, a sports marketing trade publication. The average starting price for a suite in NFL stadiums is $59,600; the high-end suites average $183,850.

New costs more
Prices vary by stadium and by suite. Bigger-market teams and those in new stadiums can demand more than teams that play in older stadiums. The Arizona Cardinals' new stadium offers suites from $65,000 to $125,000 a year. In aging Texas Stadium, home of the Dallas Cowboys, suites start for as little as $30,000.

Revenue from suite sales and other corporate sponsorships is an important part of a team's financial success. NFL teams must share television revenue, but the money they get from stadium deals is theirs to keep.

Yet, just as corporate financial woes are making stadium naming-rights deals a tough sell, the same phenomenon is making it tougher for teams trying to sell suites, said Dennis R. Howard, a professor at the University of Oregon's Warsaw Sports Marketing Center.

As a result, "we're seeing a lot of suites sold as partials," said Howard, referring to a trend in which buyers split up suites. "The corporate market just isn't as willing to step up as they used to."

For the Colts, that's where the stadium's quarterback suite comes in. More like a party room, this suite (only one will be built) will feature 192 seats, which can be purchased in pairs. The price includes all you can eat and drink.
The cost? $3,750 to $4,000 per ticket per year.

Bankers, lawyers, clients
Buyers of suites at the new stadium are most likely to include some of the banks and law firms that are tenants in the Dome.

At least 11 banks or financial firms have suites at the Dome. Five of the city's biggest law firms and some of the state's biggest companies, including Eli Lilly and Co., Marsh Supermarkets, Rolls Royce and SBC (now AT&T Indiana), have suites, too.

Barnes and Thornburg, one of the city's prominent law firms, spends $104,820 a year on its suite and plans to buy one in the new stadium. Its reasons for doing so are twofold: It uses the suite to entertain clients and thinks that investing in a suite is a good way to support the Colts.

"A suite is a very valuable thing to have," said managing partner Bob Grand, whose firm handled the financing on the $1 billion stadium and Convention Center project.

First Indiana Bank uses its suite, which costs $63,000 a year, mostly to entertain clients but also occasionally to reward employees, said spokeswoman Beth Copeland.

That's what brought 17-year-old Tom Dunaway to the city of Indianapolis suite (which the city gets at no charge) for the Dec. 4 game against the Tennessee Titans. His uncle, Dave Hirschle, was given the tickets as a reward for good work at the city's Department of Metropolitan Development. The two sat in the roomy seats in the suite, munched on mini-tacos and cookies served at the buffet and took in the game.

"The seats are the best -- we're not crowded in here at all," Dunaway said.

Perks outside the suite
Suite owners get other perks, too. They get preferred parking. They get visits from cheerleaders, masseuses and magicians during games. They get trips to away games, and some may even be invited by the team to Super Bowl trips.

All of that is part of how the Colts try to make suite buyers comfortable about their investment.

"The suites are used to affect companies' bottom line. There has to be a return on their investment," said Tom Zupancic, an Indianapolis Colts senior vice president.

And to ensure the team meets its own expected return on investment, the state authority overseeing construction of the $500 million stadium will build the Colts a sales center at the Union Federal Football Center, the Colts' practice facility.

When the center is complete next spring, companies will be able to tour a model of a suite and compare field views on a computer program.

At this point, the Colts are working with interior designers to put the finishing touches on the suites, selecting items such as granite countertops and wall colors.

Zupancic says the goal is to design suites with a classy look -- including, of course, Colts blue.

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20060103&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=601030434&Ref=AR&Q=80&MaxW=500&MaxH=400&Site=BG&Q=80&Border=0&Title=0
bigger and better: Suites in the Colts' new stadium will feature 32-inch, flat-screen, high-definition TVs. They'll also be roomier -- by an average of 127 square feet -- and offer more amenities than those in the RCA Dome (above, during the Dec. 4 game against Tennessee).

The new suites: What you get for the money
The 142 suites in the new stadium will range in price from $40,000 a year to $275,000 a year. Here's a breakdown:

Regular suites
• Location: On both the lower and upper suite decks.
• How many: 64 on the lower suite deck, 34 on the upper suite deck, with 20 seats each.
• Approximate price: $65,000 and up, depending on location.
• Features: Three 32-inch, flat-screen televisions in each suite and one TV outside each suite. Seats will be extra wide with extra padding. An island bar in each will have a granite countertop.

Field suites
• Location: On the field, about 20 feet from the end zone.
• How many: Eight, with 20 seats in each.
• Approximate price: $90,000 a year.
• Features: The second of their kind in the NFL, the suites will be 4 feet off the ground and closest to the game. At the Seattle Seahawks' stadium, players have been known to interact with fans in the suites after scoring a touchdown.

Mini-suites
• Location: In the corners of the stadium on the lower level; on the sidelines on the upper level.
• How many: Six on the lower level, 20 on the upper level, with eight seats in each.
• Approximate price: $40,000 a year.
• Features: The lowest-priced suite.

Super suites
• Location: Lower level, between the 25-yard lines.
• How many: 10, with up to 36 seats in each.
• Approximate price: Up to $275,000.
• Features: A 50-inch, flat-screen television, a 13-inch TV between every two seats, a large bar, private bathrooms.

Want one?
To get on a waiting list for a suite, a $1,000 deposit is required. Sign up by going to the Colts' Web site at www.colts.com or by calling the Colts at (317) 297-2658.Regular suites


Old vs. new
With the new stadium comes a chance to offer fans the most up-to-date suite life in the NFL. Here's how the new suites will differ from those in the RCA Dome:

Technology
• RCA Dome: 26-inch televisions.
• New stadium: 32-inch, flat-screen, high-definition TVs.

Size
• RCA Dome: Average suite size is 431 square feet, with an average of 18 seats in each.
• New stadium: Average 558 square feet, with an average of 20 seats in each.

Seats
• RCA Dome: Average seat width is 19 inches.
• New stadium: 22 inches.

Number
• RCA Dome: 104.
• New stadium: 142.

Access to club lounges for suite holders
• RCA Dome: None.
• New stadium: Access to four club lounges.

Price
• RCA Dome: $34,200 to $235,000
• New stadium: $40,000 to $275,000.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006601030434

The neighborhood groups in Nora and BroadRipple are nazis!

The neighborhood groups in Nora and BroadRipple are nazis!


Tell me about it, nothing has changed since I was there. I think it would be cool to see some midrises go up in that area (and I think they'd sell like hotcakes), but they would never let that happen.

New airport control tower has a blind spot
More than 300 feet of runway obscured by FedEx hub will be closed, dozed to give controllers view

Indianapolis International Airport this month will launch a highly unusual project—shortening a runway.

Perhaps just as odd is the reason: Controllers in the airport’s new air traffic control tower, opening next spring, won’t be able to see the southern 324 feet of the 7,604-foot crosswind runway.

The FedEx hub is in the way.
“The control tower needs to see the surface of the runway,” said John Kish, manager of the $1 billion midfield terminal construction project that necessitated the new control tower.

The Indianapolis Airport Authority will accept bids on Jan. 12 for shortening its shortest runway, which is expected to cost $5 million to $10 million. The work also includes repairs to apron surfaces near the runway.

So unusual is a runway amputation—airports tend to lengthen them—that one might reasonably wonder whether someone goofed in picking the location of the 340-foot-tall, $32 million control tower complex.

Absolutely not, insists Kish, saying the need to shorten the runway was known from the start. It’s not one of the midway terminal’s better-known projects, like the relocation of Interstate 70 and the dramatic ramp system that will connect the interstate and the new terminal.

The question of whether spending millions of dollars to shrink a perfectly good runway is the best solution is open to debate, however.

“To chop up 130 feet and no longer use the rest is stupid,” said Michael Boyd, president of an Evergreen, Colo., aviation research and airport-consulting firm.

“Does it help safety? No. Does it make it unsafe? No. It’s still going to cost you some money.”

Boyd, who often has been critical of the Federal Aviation Administration, said he still has to wonder whether the agency could have picked a better spot for its new tower to avoid the expenses of shrinking runway 14/32.

Most of the runway amputation is paid for under the federal Airport Improvement Program, funded by aviation user fees. The other 25 percent comes from local matching money.

Tower location ideal
Kish said the new control tower location was chosen based on a number of considerations, including the need to optimize views of the airport’s two principal runways. One of the parallel runways is 11,000-feet long and the other stretches 10,000 feet. The new terminal is being built between them.

“We didn’t want to screw up the visibility of the main runways in bad weather,” Kish added.

He also said lopping off portions of FedEx’s second-largest U.S. hub wasn’t cost effective or practical.

Building the tower taller than its current 340-foot height, to see over the FedEx hub, would have been costly and would have violated airspace restrictions, said FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Isham Cory.

“The airport has to be careful what they say because the FAA is like the Gestapo if you tick them off,” said Boyd.

But airport officials did suggest to FAA a more cost-effective solution: installing cameras at the obscured end of the crosswind runway so tower controllers could view the area.

According to airport officials, the FAA responded that a camera might not give controllers a clear view of smaller, general aviation aircraft that share the runway with big jets. Also, the federal agency said a variety of service vehicles that go to and fro might be hard to spot.

Arguably, though, the new tower is so far to the west of the current tower that controllers will need binoculars on the best of days to see in detail the unobstructed part of the crosswind runway.

Safety issues?
Perhaps more important than cost considerations is whether shortening the runway to 7,280 feet from 7,604 feet significantly hurts the safety margin for takeoffs and landings.

Just last month, a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 overshot Midway Airport’s notoriously short 6,500-foot runway while landing in heavy snow. The plane crashed through an airport fence onto a city street, killing a 6-year old Indiana boy in his parents’ car and injuring 10 others on the ground.

Breathing room in Indianapolis is nowhere near as shallow as Midway. There’s about 2,400 feet of grass between the south end of the crosswinds runway and High School Road—slightly less between the north end of the runway and Perimeter Road.

Airport officials also point out the crosswind runway is used infrequently by airliners—usually when winds make landing on the main runways precarious. However, at times pilots will request to use the crosswind runway to shave off arrival time because it is close to the main terminal and thus requires less taxiing.

Runway length matters the most where larger aircraft land. Generally, the largest planes using the airport with any frequency are FedEx’s DC-10s. According to FAA guidelines, the desired minimum runway length for those jumbo jets ranges from 6,600 feet to 6,780 feet, depending on model variation.

FedEx also flies Airbus A300 aircraft, for which the FAA recommends a minimum desired runway length of 6,840 feet to 7,280 feet for an airport at Indianapolis’ elevation.

“It’s still long enough to accommodate all the uses we need. The final length is still in excess of 7,000 feet,” Kish said.

But FedEx was concerned about the runway-shortening plan when it was first proposed, according to an airport official. Others also had misgivings as well.

“Originally, it was causing us some concern,” said Mike Wells, a member of the Indianapolis Airport Authority board.

But Kish said consultants studied the issue and found the runway reduction would have negligible impact. FedEx spokeswoman Paula Bosler said the company and the airport developed a solution, but she would not elaborate. “There aren’t any concerns on our part.”

While aircraft type dictates runwaylength guidelines, companies that fly aircraft also have their own policies, said Betty Stansbury, director of Purdue University’s airport. “That 350 feet [reduction] could make a big difference.”

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I'm going with gych on this one, Broad Ripple has the potential to reflect a neighborhood like you would see in Chicago. A row of one story buildings isn't very impressive, what we need in Broad Ripple are clubs, bars, stores, etc at the street level, and condos above.

I'm going with gych on this one, Broad Ripple has the potential to reflect a neighborhood like you would see in Chicago. A row of one story buildings isn't very impressive, what we need in Broad Ripple are clubs, bars, stores, etc at the street level, and condos above.

I completely agree. Broad Ripple has soooo much potential, but the nimbys are too powerful. Midrise condos and would sell very well. Im also sure there is demand for a small hotel in the area as well. If you want to live in a low density village move out to zionsville.

I don't know if it has been mentioned here yet, but the Old Navy dowtown is closing. I have been told by my Simon firend that is not due to low sales, but high over-head. Old Navy, and its parent company Gap, are in serious financial trouble and are looking to close a number of its stores/brands. Three Old Navy's are closing in the City as of right now. I hope that something comes in and replaces it sooner than later. I would think that with the Conrad opening across the street, the visibility of the site and easy access would make it a hot spot for another retailer.

I havent been to that Old Navy in a long time, so I'm not sure what the space in there is like. Do you think that would be a good location for a Crate & Barrel?

Any new news from your friend at Simon in regards to any new stores coming to Circle Centre or the Fashion Mall?

As for rail, as I mentioned, expect this to become a politcal issue for the next mayorial election (news should hit around June-ish). I just so happen to be going to an RTA meeting this morning up in Carmel.

Wasn't the issue supposed to be brought up during the general assembly this session?

Express store closing at Fashion Mall

INDIANAPOLIS -- The 5,234-square-foot Express store at the Fashion Mall is closing Thursday, mall owner Simon Property Group confirmed. Electronics retailer Sony will move into the apparel store's site, Simon said. (Star report)

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060111/BUSINESS/601110383/1003

I havent been to that Old Navy in a long time, so I'm not sure what the space in there is like. Do you think that would be a good location for a Crate & Barrel?

Any new news from your friend at Simon in regards to any new stores coming to Circle Centre or the Fashion Mall?


The Old Navy space isn't nearly big enough for a Crate & Barrel, although I'm not certain of what is above or below the Old Navy. I think just office space, but I'm not sure. At any rate, I don't think the demand exists yet for two C&B's in Indy. I would love to see a retailer that's unique to Indy open its doors in its space--something like Anthropologie or Armani Exchange (although I don't think Circle Centre is enough of a high-end mall for either of those stores). I know it's not technically part of Circle Centre, but it's close enough.

And in regards to the Express at Keystone closing, it probably makes sense. there is an Express at Castleton, which is less than three miles away (a seven-minute drive at most), and another at Clay Terrace, which is only about six miles away.

And in regards to the Express at Keystone closing, it probably makes sense. there is an Express at Castleton, which is less than three miles away (a seven-minute drive at most), and another at Clay Terrace, which is only about six miles away.

I wouldnt be surprised if Simon pushed them out of there to make space for the Sony store just like Eddie Bauer was moved to make space for Tiffany.

I wouldnt be surprised if Simon pushed them out of there to make space for the Sony store just like Eddie Bauer was moved to make space for Tiffany.

I am pretty confident that this is the case. I was told by my Simon friend that this will be a trend at the Fashion Mall for a while...stores that aren't "high-end" will be relocated or closed to make way for the big-ticket stores. I would expect the Gap may also be closed as it occupies a lot of space on 2 floors of that mall. This is just my opinion though.

As for Crate & Barrel downtown, highly doubt it. IMO, the ideal spot would have been where Borders is located as the visibility at that corner would have been enough advertisment to sell plenty of stuff. I was told that a home store would open downtown about 2 years ago, but still nothing. With the housing boom downtown continuing at a clippers pace, you would think...I would even be happy with another Pottery Barn.

The Old Navy store is quite small and it is possible that the space may just be absorbed by the wagering site, or made into offices. I don't think that there is opportunity to expand on that site as Embassy Suites takes up almost everything not being used.

I am pretty confident that this is the case. I was told by my Simon friend that this will be a trend at the Fashion Mall for a while...stores that aren't "high-end" will be relocated or closed to make way for the big-ticket stores. I would expect the Gap may also be closed as it occupies a lot of space on 2 floors of that mall. This is just my opinion though.

As for Crate & Barrel downtown, highly doubt it. IMO, the ideal spot would have been where Borders is located as the visibility at that corner would have been enough advertisment to sell plenty of stuff. I was told that a home store would open downtown about 2 years ago, but still nothing. With the housing boom downtown continuing at a clippers pace, you would think...I would even be happy with another Pottery Barn.
The Old Navy store is quite small and it is possible that the space may just be absorbed by the wagering site, or made into offices. I don't think that there is opportunity to expand on that site as Embassy Suites takes up almost everything not being used.


Downtown and Indy could not support another C&B. But even if they could, C&B would not build it there. They would never build a store downtown in most cities. Places like Chicago are the exception. I also don't think there are enough high end residents within proximity of downtown to support a home store like Pottery Barn (think about how much wealth is on the north side), but maybe in a few years. Rumor has it that we are getting C&B in Oxmoor mall (construction has started so we are getting something), but I have also heard it could be Williams Sonoma Home (blah) or Z Gallerie.


I think the Fashion Mall should start going after the higher end crowd...it is doing a good job, but I would like to see Armani Exchange, Prada, Burberry, Louis Vuitton (I know theres a boutique in Saks but still), etc. True you can get a smithering of this stuff at Saks, but there are even a couple boutiques here where you can get it. Its the experience of walking into a Prada store that is grand.

Tiffany's and Saks are a good start, but I think more tenants of this caliber are needed to make it an upscale mall in the true "national" sense of the word. But certainly Keystone is the most upscale in the region, IMO its better than most stuff in Cincy. Just on a national scale, it is not quite an "upper end" mall, yet.

Downtown Indy could EASILY support a Pottery Barn...even if it was just based off of the gay population.

As for the Fashion Mall, LV and Burberry are already being "floated" as possible new tenants within the year.

Downtown Indy could EASILY support a Pottery Barn...even if it was just based off of the gay population.

As for the Fashion Mall, LV and Burberry are already being "floated" as possible new tenants within the year.

Hmm I still disagree about Potter Barn at Circle Center but we shall see.

Cory thats great news about Burberry and LV...where did you hear that? In what wing of the mall woudl you expect them? I know San Antonio has just gotten those stores so i think Indy might be able to handle them.

What the hell are you talking about "Indy cant support a so and so?" How would you know where and when they would open their stores? The people who actually make the developments decide where and who opens up, and they dont base it on what people would believe could handle it. No one thought we could handle the Colts when they first came, but now the tables have turned. And in my opinion DT Indy could VERY EASILY support a high end like Pottery Barn. Two of em in fact, depending on the fate of Parisian.

LV and Burberry are looking at coming here (rumors from Simon), buut nothing is definite.

BTW, I went to the Keystone Cinema (the new one at the Fashion Mall) to see Brokeback Mountain last weekend (I sobbed like a fool) and it is very nice. They serve alcohol and the movies that play there are better than your typical cinema. I am not a huge movie-goer, as I like more Indie films (some of those don't get big releases). Anyway, I think that I will be making more trips up there just for the movies.

City has big shoes to fill -- 7 feet long
Giant sneakers around Downtown will sell for $10,000 and will help defray cost of hosting NCAA Final Four

http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=BG&Date=20060112&Category=BUSINESS&ArtNo=601120414&Ref=AR&MaxW=200&Q=60&Border=0


If you're in the market for a pair of high-tops, Indianapolis has a deal for you.
One size 7 shoe -- as in 7 feet long -- molded in fiberglass and standing 4 feet tall for $10,000.
As the city gears up for the Big Ten basketball tournament in March and the NCAA Men's Final Four in April, it's pitching a first-of-its kind sponsorship to offset the projected $2 million it could cost to host the NCAA basketball finals.
Companies are being asked to buy the oversized shoes -- with a plaque bearing the name of the company sponsor -- that will be placed in high-profile locations throughout Downtown.
Also selling for $10,000 are 12-foot-wide, 7-foot-tall backboards that will hang on the side of Downtown's high-rise buildings.
The idea is to show how basketball crazy Indianapolis is. Scattered sneakers and backboards might not fly in San Antonio or Minneapolis. But in the state that inspired the movie "Hoosiers," they fit the landscape.
"I don't know of any city that embraces basketball like ours," said Maribeth Smith, executive director of the Indianapolis Local Organizing Committee, which oversees the city's involvement in hosting the Final Four.
The big shoes and backboards will go on display March 1 and remain up through April 4. During that time, Indianapolis will host the women's Big Ten tournament, the men's Big Ten tournament and the Final Four.
The Heart Center of Indiana didn't waste time getting into the game.
It was the first company to purchase a shoe, which will highlight its Go Red for Women initiative -- teaching women the dangers of heart disease. Its shoe will be in Circle Centre mall.
"The mall is hitting our target audience -- women," said Elizabeth Cisco, vice president of marketing for the heart center.
The shoe designs -- which also will appear on Monument Circle, outside Conseco Fieldhouse and elsewhere -- are as varied as the companies buying them.
Red Gold, for example, will display a tomato-laced shoe.
For OrthoIndy, bones made the most sense. One of its two shoes will look like a foot X-ray.
The project, dubbed Tourney Town USA, was created by local sports marketing guru Ray Compton, owner of Compton Strategies.
His goal is to sell at least 65 shoes and backboards -- the number of teams in the NCAA men's tournament. So far, about 25 shoes have been sold, along with a handful of backboards.
The Final Four has always been a draw for major corporate sponsors such as Coca-Cola, Cingular and Pontiac.
The shoes give smaller companies a chance to get involved, Compton said.
At the Hilton hotel Downtown, a shoe will be painted by students from IPS School 14 and likely be displayed at the corner of Illinois and Market streets.
"As a hotel, we benefit so much from this tournament, and this was just a way for us to show what basketball does for us," said Marti Alexander, director of sales and marketing for the Hilton.
In fact, the thousands of visitors attending the tournament are expected to pump at least $30 million into the local economy.
Not bad news for 6-foot-4 Mayor Bart Peterson, who Tourney Town likes to call "a mayor so tall he can post up darn near any other mayor."
In the project's marketing kit, Peterson jokes that he had fears about its effectiveness.
"This is Indiana, after all. Will anyone notice backboards mounted everywhere and basketball shoes strewn throughout the state?" he asked. "Is that so different from our everyday life?"
To stand out, Peterson advised: "They're going to have to be big."
And they are

The gallery gamble
Three gallery owners wonder whether art in Indy is a hot commodity
By Matt Gonzales
matt.gonzales@intakeweekly.com

http://www.intakeweekly.com/images/pics/image-023854-1676.jpg
Impart art: Galerie Penumbra owners Dave Mattingly and Cheryl Mattingly, his wife, stand in their gallery space. Behind them, work from the "Lunch" show. -- Michelle Pemberton / INtake

Related content
• The gallery gamble
• 5 questions with 5 artists
• Gallery directory


Art is part of many words for which many of us have no shortage of affection:

"eARTh."

"pARTy."

"ART Garfunkel."

Take the art out, and what are you left with?

"eh."

"py."

"Garfunkel."

Now, you may not need "art" to spell Indianapolis, but remove art from our city, and the results are similarly disagreeable. Fortunately, a great many talented artists live and work in town, and a slowly growing number of entrepreneurs and art lovers are setting up shop to display their work.

But to survive, these artists and galleries must rely on the cold machinery of commerce. They've got the supply side covered. But what about demand? Are local consumers willing to empty their pockets for art's sake?

To find out, INtake visited three of Indy's newest galleries -- FLUX space, Galerie Penumbra and LAMP -- to gauge local support for local art.

I ain't no art snob


Sitting amid the cartoonish paintings in his Galerie Penumbra in Fountain Square, Dave Mattingly talks of how his family members are reluctant to attend openings at his gallery. "My own in-laws won't come," he said. "A lot of people still think that at openings I have a tuxedo on and there are limos outside."

On the contrary, Galerie Penumbra's openings don't require you to hold your pinky finger at a 45-degree angle from your wine glass stem. You don't even have to drink the free wine Mattingly provides. He regularly sets aside space in his personal fridge for those who bring along sixers of Coors.

"I'm not saying it's a hoe-down," Mattingly said. "But our openings really are a very laid-back kind of thing."

Artist Jeff Martin, who ran the J. Martin Gallery in Fountain Square before closing it last year, thinks the media has helped propagate the myth that art galleries are stuffy.

"That perception comes from the way galleries and owners are presented on television or movies," he said. "But the reality is that gallery owners aren't pretentious. The gallery owners I know are very friendly, very personable and informative about what the work means and their reasons are for selecting it."

Still, Martin has learned to be creative in his efforts to lure Indianapolis residents to the arts.

Along with the five other artists who make up the nonprofit art collective Primary Colours, Martin puts on annual art events designed to make art more palatable to the gallery-phobic crowd. Among them are Allotropy, which pairs art with local music, and Art. Vs. Art, an auction where art that fails to find a suitor gets spectacularly destroyed onstage.

Attendance at the events supports the notion that if you throw a party, people will come. Last year, more than 600 people showed up to watch local artwork get annihilated chainsaw-style at Art. Vs. Art.

The intimidation factor

Martin knew that putting the "art" back in "party" would help attract a bigger audience to the visual arts.

"A lot of people are intimidated by the thought of going into a gallery," he said. "They don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable."

DeAnne Roth, who recently opened the new FLUX space in Fountain Square, sees the value in events like Art vs. Art. But she thinks it's also important to show art in peaceful, traditional settings.

"People come (to those events) because they know it's going to be fun, and it's themed," she said. "I think there's a place for that."

Before opening FLUX, Roth periodically volunteered at the Ruschman Gallery, Indy's crown jewel of art dealership. With FLUX, Roth modestly emulates Ruschman with traditional one-artist exhibits. Artists Nicci Herren and Ben Murray help Roth shoulder the burden of running and maintaining the gallery.

"I'm dedicated to doing solo shows that showcase a body of work," Roth said, standing near one of Herren's haunting landscapes in which 10 flying saucers hover over a rural field.

Not that Roth is totally opposed to group shows.

"Those are valid, but I like to think that my space would train the public on the arts a little bit differently -- refine it," she said.

"Maybe that sounds hoity, and I certainly don't mean that by any means, but there's something about a quiet space that I think can make someone really appreciate the work and want to take it home."

But Roth and other new gallery owners around town don't yet enjoy Ruschman's hard-earned clout. And while they report decent attendance, Penumbra's Mattingly says that attendees aren't always eager to buy. He thinks a lot of people are anxious about taking the leap from art spectator to owner.

Mattingly said enthusiasts can break through the afraid-to-buy barrier by starting small.

"The first thing you go by is if you like it or not," he said. "And if so, is it in your budget, is it something you can afford? You don't have to spend several thousand dollars. Our gallery range is basically about $350 to $1,200. We tend to sell more around $550 to $600 range."

If you're really interested in a piece, Mattingly will even let you leave a deposit and take it home for a couple of weeks for a trial run -- as long as it's OK with the artist.

The window-shopping dilemma

At Galerie Penumbra, Chris Sickels' sculptures, Penelope Dullaghan's paintings and Josh Johnsons' illustrations have been hanging for more than three weeks. But nothing in the exhibit has yet sold.

As he struggles to make sales, Mattingly occasionally gets frustrated with all the talk lately of how far the Indianapolis arts scene has come.

"It's a little disconcerting when I hear people spin how well this city is doing in the arts," he said. "(Gallery owners) are here on the front lines. We are the best gauge for how the city is doing.

"Supporting the arts means that on occasion, you buy something," he said. "For all the people who come in here, if just once every two years they would buy a work in the $300 to $1,000 range, I could stay in business with no problem."

Gallery owner Jennifer Kaye shares Mattingly's dilemma. At Kaye's LAMP Gallery, located on Massachusetts Avenue, visitors are immediately taken by brilliant colors, patterns and figures that adorn high-rise walls.

Unlike most galleries around town, LAMP is decorated in salon-style. Its walls are covered with works of varying styles by all manner of local artists. On the floor in large crates, more pieces lean back-to-back. Visitors can rifle through them like albums in a record store.

One can spend all day looking around. The trouble is, that's exactly what many people do.

Kaye is by no means put off by visitors who browse and dash. Most gallery owners enthusiastically encourage people to stop in without feeling pressure to buy. But Kaye stressed the need for patronage in order for the local art scene to thrive.

"We need the active involvement of the community," she said. "That means more than just coming down to the openings. It means understanding that if no one buys the art, then they aren't really supporting the local art scene here."

But Kaye said she has seen steady progress since she relocated from her previous space on East Street. In addition to better foot traffic, she believes that the variety she offers -- the walls of LAMP display the work of more than 30 artists -- appeals to visitors.

Kaye also thinks the all-over-the-place feel of her gallery puts those who might be anxious in a traditional art gallery at ease.

"Most people are really wowed when they come in," she said. "They aren't just seeing one artist they like. They can usually pick out four or five people they really like."

But like Mattingly at Penumbra, Kaye believes gallery owners are still fighting the stereotype that art is for pretentious dandies with fat wallets.

"There have been some stigmas put on art galleries," she said. "Some people think if you aren't loaded and have four gold cards, then you don't have any business walking into an art gallery."

'Indianapolis has a pearl'

While Kaye is an advocate for patronage, she doesn't expect people to buy art for, well, art's sake.

"I think the art that goes on your wall should haunt you," she said. "I think it should haunt you so much that you just must have it. And if it doesn't move you, that's fine."

But Kaye believes that Indianapolis has something special. The gallery owner recently took a trip to New York City, where she walked through 60 art galleries.

"I ultimately feel that I would put our art up to that (in New York) any day," she said. "And it doesn't cost anywhere near the $35,000 you'll spend in New York. I would really like to see the community embrace the kind of talent they have here."

According to the owner, a number of out-of-state visitors have been highly impressed by the caliber of work at LAMP.

Kaye suggested that it might take the outside world recognizing the Indianapolis art community before locals fully embrace it.

"I look at that to be a necessary progression for Indianapolis to wake up to what it has," she said. "I feel like Indianapolis has a pearl that it's unaware of, and when the outside world says, 'Wow, Indianapolis, you've got a great art scene,' then maybe the community will go, 'Wow, we've got a great art scene.' "

Of course, there will always be cynics who argue that Hoosiers just don't have a taste for art.

Kaye disagrees.

"I've heard many people say that the community doesn't have an interest in it It's deeper than that," she said. "I just don't think they're aware of what's here."

Kaye thinks that Indianapolis residents suffer from an inferiority complex.

"We underestimate ourselves," she said. "We hold ourselves hostage."

It's a sentiment that Jeff Martin shares. He likens the plight of local art to that of local music.

"I think art in Indianapolis suffers the same as music in Indianapolis. It seems to be this mentality that if you're still in Indianapolis, you can't be any good," he said. "I don't share in that perception, but that seems to be the prominent perception."

But you take the good with the bad.

According to Kaye, owning a gallery in Indianapolis, despite its challenges, is exactly what she wants to be doing.

"We're a conservative kind of community, but we have interdependence," she said. "And that's one of the things that makes this community great. There are wonderful people here, and we for the most part have each other's back. It's one of the things that adds to the soul of the artwork here."

What the hell are you talking about "Indy cant support a so and so?" How would you know where and when they would open their stores? The people who actually make the developments decide where and who opens up, and they dont base it on what people would believe could handle it. No one thought we could handle the Colts when they first came, but now the tables have turned. And in my opinion DT Indy could VERY EASILY support a high end like Pottery Barn. Two of em in fact, depending on the fate of Parisian.


I am entitled to an opinion dude. Calm the fuck down. I lived in Indy and NO, I dont think Pottery Barn would survive downtown. Sure, I would love to see it, but I just dont think its ready yet. The fact that over half the mall's customers are visitors really kills it too, considering most would never buy home goods while on vacation/convention. Very few major cities have a home goods store downtown (like that) so its no big deal.

As for LV and Burberry at Keystone, I do think that Indy is ready. In fact, Saks should have been in Indy 10 years ago along with C&B and Tiffany's. If Charlotte can get these stores, Indy can. My opinion is that C&B (rumor is that its coming, but well see), Tiffany's, and Saks should be here in Louisville soon, but I am guessing Louisville will have to crack that magical 1.5 million MSA mark to start getting a more serious look, sort of like Indy did.

I guess my point is that cities in this region do not get the respect they deserve from high end retailers--they must think we are all hicks. I know you guys are happy with the stores coming to Indy, but with Indy's northside wealth places like Burberry should definitely be wanting in. I mean, just look at Cincy, some of the stores they lack for a metro over 2 million is a bit rediculous. But I think the Fashion Mall is starting to prove otherwise (that people in this region DO have money and fashion sense)...

I'd like to go back to the new high-rise developments, if you all don't mind--several topics but I would like your input.

A.what type of design would you like to see:
1. a simple but classy design like the Aon Center (formerly Standard Oil bldg) in Chicago
2. work by Pickard Chilton architecture firm: here is the website---http://www.pickardchilton.com/proj_calpers_01.html. Click on the corporate link. 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta and a similar one in Houston are nice. I've seen 1180 Peachtreein person and it looks great during the day b/c the sun hits it at different angles and the curved top allows for a good gradient effect. However, the lighting at night in the drawing is better than the actual; at night it looks like a rectangular bldg with a big lighted square on top, no gradient effect.
3. something funky like the Asian/Hong Kong bldgs
4.Skidmore Owens & Merrill design
5. do any of the local architecture firms design high-rise bldgs?
6. the glass diamond-pointed bldg in Dallas
7. something so weird/unique/abstract that it could be deemed as ugly
8. something that deals more with different shapes.

B.I e-mailed the developer listed on emporis.com for the Pennsylvania mixed use hotel/condo project and suggested a design feature--the lighting of the bldg at night (architecture firm is Rabun Hogan Ota Rasche Architects); architecture firm webiste w/ pic is: http://www.rhor.com/profile/profile.html
-other pics of the GLG Grand/Four Seasons hotel: http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=121101
the firm that designed One Market Square (not that it is bad) shouldn't be used b/c it will probably have too much limestone and be a box.

C.Also, I know you mentioned the locations but do you think more should go on N. Meridian, further up, along Ohio, or where it will be is good? I think longating the skyline is good but not on Ohio.

D. There is a bail bonds office near the site of One Market; i think it should be moved. Thoughts???

E. Ohio St. needs to be streetscaped! thoughts???

link for Pickard Chilton architecture firm:

http://www.pickardchilton.com/proj_calpers_01.html

In response:

A. I would love to see some more progressive architecture in Indy (I liked the way you put it: "something so weird/unique/abstract that it could be deemed as ugly.") However, I don't think this is likely to come in the form of a condo--I think it's more likely to happen with an office tower, if it ever happens. However, I would take it in any form... we need to wake this place up!

I have no comments for B. :-)

C. I think for proximity to the restaurants and bars (which is a huge motivator for people moving downtown), East Ohio, Market, or Washington are probably the locations that make the most sense. Once you get past Delaware Street, there are tons of parking lots on all of these streets, all of which are within very close proximity to the Circle and would be wonderful to fill in with something flashy. As much as it would be great to extend the skyline north along Meridian Street, you would have to go a good distance north to get to empty lots, and that's just too far from the rest of the downtown action at this point (maybe not in 15 years). Plus there are several buildings along N. Meridian that could be rehabbed or converted to condos, and I htink that's probably more viable at this point. That being said, the lots directly north of OneAmerica (at Illinois and New York), or west of it (at Ohio and Capitol) would be great prospects too... great views of downtown, as well as the Canal and IUPUI. I really hate how you're driving down Ohio in this great canyon of scrapers and then you pass OneAmerica and you're just in a sea of parking lots. Even some lowrise would be welcome there--just something!

D. Yes!

E. I totally agree. For such a collection of tall buildings, the street itself is quite bland. I'd love to see some vegetation somewhere... nothing extravagant, but at least something.

I am speaking in terms of office bldgs or hotel/office/condo mixed use, not an all condo tower.

-I wouldn't doubt that with 6 degrees of separation, someone in this forum knows someone with decison making power. Am I incorrect?

-I think that a forum/meeting is needed with all developers, designers, speculators, etc. to address design issues but with the proper ordinances there woudln't be much of an issue. not sure about existing. if a 30 story tower does get erected amongst older styled bldgs, they could use brick of something on the street level but the tower could be glass with a metallic facade.

-Send an e-mail to the proper staff member @ indy dwntn inc. about the bail bonds office & streetscaping suggestions for Ohio St. I have about the bail bonds office and plan to about Ohio St. The public does have some power. the response I got re: bail bonds office is that the owner is someone different and they are not sure of their plans. but that could mean they can't disclose if something is in the works until final. what they have done on 38th st. near the cemetary & IMA would be nice. I also sent an e-mail stating that some streets seem dim at night like Ohio, S. Meridian, Illinois just north of Artsgarden, but not sure if it is just me.

-jacerw99, I don't think the architecture is THAT dead, do you really or are you just saying it is time for something of a decent height that is new?

-a developer by the name of James Shively (sp?) wanted to put a bowling alley/movie/mianature golfing/entertainment complex in the Lafayette Square area (and somewhere in Fishers or Noblesville). However, I think the Lafayette Sq area needs more residential--mixed-use type stuff. the entertaiment complex can be good but the big box stuff shouldn't go overboard. anybody remember anything about this? I think I aslo read that he was going to put a restaurant on the canal or river but the deal fell through.

-any opinions about Castleton square area?

-when will we know more about Wells Fargo or whomever and/or plans for a large company moving downtown?

I doubt Lafayette Square will ever recover, its possible though. And I go there and I'm like, damn. I used to go there a lot as a kid and a LOT has changed.

Almost time for Indianapolis Development News III

I doubt Lafayette Square will ever recover, its possible though. And I go there and I'm like, damn. I used to go there a lot as a kid and a LOT has changed.

Almost time for Indianapolis Development News III


LOL, I used to go there as a kid sometimes too, but we normally went to Castleton or the outlets on 65 when they opened. I dont think it deserves the name Lafayette "scare."

When I first moved to Louisville, there was a mall called Bashford Manor in a somewhat declining inner ring suburb of West Buechel that was much worse than the scare (You know, one of those poorly developed 50's areas). Well the mall was so scary it looked haunted with all the closed shops, and I think in the end it was getting dangerous to go in there. People got jumped in there and there were teenaged thugs fighting inside. I remember a barber shop, a gun store (selling semi automatics), a cash pawn place, a pet store, and a decrepid Target. The mall used to have 3 department stores and was one of the top 3 malls in the city, but it got slammed in the 80's and especially, the 90's.

Well, the mall finally closed and is now a collection of big box stores--Super Target, Walmart, Lowes, and some other strip center crap that locates around Walmarts everywhere. I hate to see big boxes so close to the city (It is just south of I-264) but this area really needed it. Crime in the area has gone down, and the few murders that they had seen have just not happened anymore. So I think Lafayette Square should do something like this, but maybe add some sort of entertainment like place. You may laugh but I think a nightclub like thsi one I went to in a Chicago suburb with a Mardi Gras theme may work well on that site.

B.I e-mailed the developer listed on emporis.com for the Pennsylvania mixed use hotel/condo project and suggested a design feature--the lighting of the bldg at night (architecture firm is Rabun Hogan Ota Rasche Architects); architecture firm webiste w/ pic is: http://www.rhor.com/profile/profile.html
-other pics of the GLG Grand/Four Seasons hotel: http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=121101
the firm that designed One Market Square (not that it is bad) shouldn't be used b/c it will probably have too much limestone and be a box.

D. There is a bail bonds office near the site of One Market; i think it should be moved. Thoughts???

I've seen the renders for the Penn tower. It's in the "Chicago School" classic skyscraper design, like the Century building across the street so there's not a lot of room for the type of lighting you're talking about.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=196829 The lower pic on Emporis was taken while standing on the Penn tower site.

The design has been essentially completed, although we're not sure about the number of stories yet. It will please all though. It probably will be considered the classiest of all the really tall towers downtown.

The Bail Bonds place is privately owned and has a sale price I'm sure. It's ugly, but I'm not worried about it. They're just waiting for the right offer.