View Full Version : I blame BRONTEBOY for this....


elliot
October 6th, 2005, 12:36 AM
Aussie developers eye T.O.'s waterfront

CHRISTOPHER HUME

Like Toronto, Melbourne has a waterfront. Unlike Toronto, Melbourne began rebuilding its waterfront a decade ago.

The work is still 20 years from completion, but money — $3.5 billion — has been spent and the process started.

Here, of course, we haven't reached that point quite yet.

But Toronto's tardiness was good news to a delegation of Australian developers and bankers who came to Toronto this week to check out business opportunities, especially those on the waterfront.

The tour lasted just a few days, but it was clear the visitors from Down Under liked what they saw.

"Toronto has a fantastic waterfront asset," says John Tabart, CEO of VicUrban, the Melbourne equivalent of the Toronto Waterfront Revitalization Corp. "There's community support and there appears to be political will. I think it's time for Toronto to do something."

So do a lot of Torontonians, but perhaps Tabart's comment about political will is somewhat premature.

On the matter of waterfront redevelopment, the public seems years ahead of the politicians, as it does on environmental issues.

On the other hand, Tabart does have some advice for Toronto.

"Quality is key," he insists, "and quality isn't about price. It means high design, sustainability, a clear vision and regulatory clarity."

Tabart also warns that Toronto will have to decide what to do with the Gardiner Expressway before the waterfront can be fully redeveloped. In Melbourne, despite initial reluctance, the local version of the Gardiner was torn down. It was replaced by a toll highway, which also covered the cost of demolition.

"You have to deal with traffic," Tabart argues. "You'll need some solution; if you don't find it, waterfront redevelopment will be difficult."

Also hard, he says, was maintaining a sense of public ownership of the Melbourne docklands.

"We decided it was to be a place for everybody, not just those well-heeled enough to afford a waterfront condo," Tabart says. "All building was set back a minimum of 30 metres from the water's edge to ensure public access."

Then there's the nasty little issue of money — specifically, who will pay for the development?

As Tabart makes clear, the answer is both private and public sectors. In Melbourne, government takes care of the infrastructure, up to the edge of a site sold or leased to private interests. The developer takes care of the infrastructure inside those boundaries.

"We have performance standards that developers have to meet," Tabart explains.

He also suggests the Toronto redevelopment authority would be better advised to rely on contract law rather than land use regulations. This is an important point in Toronto, where the Toronto Waterfront Revitalization Corporation is still waiting to hear what powers it will be given by government.

The point is that even without having the power to change planning rules and so on, the corporation can draw up individual contracts with developers. Tabart, who has been with VicUrban for 10 years, also emphasizes the need for a success story early in the process. It could be anything from an office tower (public or private), a condo or a retail complex. The crucial factor, he says, is to build something that will convince the larger community of the viability of the revitalization program. Then there's the ongoing pressure to ensure the redeveloped waterfront remains a place people feel welcome. This is worth keeping in mind in Toronto, where the very idea of the public realm has been eroded and municipal politicians are willing, even anxious, to hand over civic assets to private interests.

"This city has the earmarks of being a good investment market," says Martin Standford, a member of the Australian delegation and director of development at ING Real Estate.

"Toronto is a fabulous city. There's a ton of investment opportunity on the waterfront. It's got a lot of appeal. But developers need certainty about the infrastructure, transit, sewers and that sort of thing.

"Toronto also has to go up against cities like Los Angeles, New York, Boston and Washington, so there's lots of competition."

Besides, he adds, "it's so easy to get it wrong."
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tayser
October 6th, 2005, 03:08 PM
:?

Citystyle
October 7th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Melbourne has a waterfront? Hardley

Bronteboy
October 7th, 2005, 03:41 PM
hmmm, thanks Elliot, we're always glad to lend some advice where it's needed.

for those such as Tays who are puzzled about the thread title i think Elliot is referring to our long duel on the now mercifully exhausted Ozz v Can skylines thread (my first and probably last foray into cityvcity), which i think helped to extend it to something like 44 pages and and about 16,000 views...and probably drew some attention to TO, so starved of it on city v. city all may have noticed.

but, all ended well: btw, Elliot, i see Trump is still tardy on that Trump TO constuction start announcement, but I am sure that will be all well too. :okay:

Much-repeated pic of the central section of Melbourne's Dockland's vision: quite a few of these buildings are now built:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/Bronteboy/Vicharbour1.jpg

Drunkill
October 7th, 2005, 05:35 PM
hehe look at wee widdle Eureka in the background of that pic.

skiesthelimit
October 7th, 2005, 06:41 PM
hehe look at wee widdle Eureka in the background of that pic.

It may look small, but even in that pic it's already ~150m/500ft tall! So around 1/2 way. I used to work at Crown when E was a baby, it looked even smaller than that, around 100m tall.

elliot
October 8th, 2005, 01:34 AM
Bronte how cum an open sewer (aka river) is a waterfront?

uewepuep
October 8th, 2005, 02:35 AM
Because Australians have toilets, we don't just shit straight into the river.

Bronteboy
October 8th, 2005, 08:31 AM
Bronte how cum an open sewer (aka river) is a waterfront?

it's pristine: i go down on my hands and knees and drink directly from the Yarra, like a wombat, every day ...

MILIUX
October 8th, 2005, 08:44 AM
I'm sorry but the Yarra river are not from springs, but rather straight from the sewers and a sprinkle of rain.

Bronteboy
October 8th, 2005, 08:49 AM
delicious. although i think i have seen the odd 'floater' drifting by ...

MILIUX
October 8th, 2005, 08:53 AM
delicious. although i think i have seen the odd 'floater' drifting by ...

Horrah. Water crisis has been solved. Let's all drink from Yarra.

Bronteboy
October 8th, 2005, 10:52 AM
Horrah. Water crisis has been solved. Let's all drink from Yarra.

Yes. They are planning to bottle it down-river from Eureka and sell it to tourists along Southbank during the Commonwealth Games. It will come in a blue-colored bottle with a gold cap, and be marketed as a natural health-giving drink, called 'Docklands Fresh Light Ale.'

Something like this ... :cheers:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/Bronteboy/bottle.jpg

elliot
October 8th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Bronte, when you refer to "floater" I assume you aren't referring to human bodies, but this type of floater?

http://www.upside-down.ca/sdphotos/sas-yarra.jpg

or this

http://thehalloffarts.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/long-turd.jpg.w300h316.jpg

Bronteboy
October 9th, 2005, 05:11 AM
well yes, something like that. I was thinking of the 'floater' that Fat Bastard left in the bathroom for Austen Powers, if you happen to have caught those films. Our Yarra's still a good drop, though :cheers:

btw, you should catch Grollo's 'The Yarra River in the 1960s' thread in the "city images, architecture and historic' ...very nostalgic, and shows how far we've come.

DrJoe
October 17th, 2005, 04:46 AM
Toronto has tons of potential to do something similar to Melbourne's docklands only on a much larger scale.

You can see this land here is basically an industrial wasteland on absolutely prime land.
http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/on/toronto/2002/toh2002_224.jpg

Toronto's waterfront is growing out of its industrial past, it will be sometime before there is a full transition.

rt_0891
October 17th, 2005, 05:51 AM
Toronto's waterfront is growing out of its industrial past, it will be sometime before there is a full transition.

It's been doing that since the 70s. What made us fall behind was inaction from upper levels of government, and a lack of leadership from Metro Toronto.