As a past smoker who was treated as a second class citizen during the last couple years, thought I'd defend the smokers instead.
LIke to say first that quitting smoking is the best thing you can do, and your life is so much better after. You miss it for life or get disgusted by it when you quit. One or the other. However, you save money but also notice how much easier it is to run, exercise, and do any physical thing.
However, do it in your own time, don't let anyone push you. Anyways, with that politically correct part done, on to my rant.

Smokers all know those snobby people who make that nose wrinkle disgusted look when they see cigarrete smoke, and then ask YOU to move away instead of them just keeping there mouth shut and taking two steps away.

I always got into arguments when they whined about me killing them off with my second hand smoke (a bunch of b/s by the way). Well, the debate went off last night at a bar patio (what am I doing in a patio in October at night is beyone me...might be something to do with all the whiskey shots keeping me warm!). One friend reamed my other friend out for smoking in his territory.

I used my standard line. Stop bitching about second hand smoke until you stop driving a car, which cause a hell of alot more toxins than 2nd hand ever did.
The debate naturally went to cars being mandartory, smoking is for pleasure. That is also b/s if you live in a city (especially if you don't have a family) as you have TTC, cabs, and bike/walking options available. So, it is for convenience, not mandatory (once again families are SOMETIMES exceptions).

Either way, did some research for ammunition for the next drunken argument, and this is what I found:
Second hand smoke kills 1000 people per year in Canada.
Air Pollution (car emmissions are'nt responsible for all, but majority) kill 5,900 per year in Canada.

Sources: Smoking
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/tobac-tabac/second/fact-fait/tox/index_e.html
Air Pollution
http://www.ec.gc.ca/cleanair-airpur/Revised_Mortality_Estimates_Due_to_Air_Pollution-WS2BFC7599-1_En.htm

My point to this rant is:
Smokers ONE, non smoking bitchy whiney snobby don't know shit, think they're beter than everyone else, ignorant, (edit), and stupid a-holes (excluding the fine people of SSC of course :) ) a BIG FAT ZERO!

Still, I don't like walking downtown to have some guy blow a poof of smoke in my face. It smells like shit.

I used to smoke and I didn't even really like the smell when I smoked, so I really don't like it now.

The car pollution vs. 2nd hand smoke argument is B.S. For many people a car IS a necessity.

I told somone at a bar to blow their smoke away from me and they blew it right in my face. I smacked that goddamn cig right out of his mouth. I should've punched it out of his mouth and taken out a couple teeth while I was at it.

A smoking section in a restaurant or bar is like a pissing and pooping section in a swimming pool.

"Smokers ONE, non smoking bitchy whiney snobby don't know shit, think they're beter than everyone else, ignorant, gay, and stupid a-holes (excluding the fine people of SSC of course ) a BIG FAT ZERO!"

Smokers don't know shit, think they should be able to smoke wherever they want, and generally don't give a shit about making someone else uncomfortable and smell like shit. All smokers should quit or die immediately. :)

First, if you live in a city with a fairly large population, a car is not necessary. It is great to have one for the odd time public transportation doesn't take you to your destination (which is pretty rare), but unless you own your own business, you really don't need one.

Second, I used to smoke (still occasionally do). People should realize that a lot of the people who smoke don't want to. It's discusting and burns a hole in your wallet. But, at the same time, it is one of the hardest, if not hardest, addictions to break. Leave smokers alone. New laws are crashing down on them anyway. Besides, the amount of smokers is going down (last time I checked).

Yeah, as The anti-cheesehead said, that air pollution argument is somewhat invalid. Cars are some of it, but a good chunk is from factories, refineries etc. If you are going to say "stop driving" you may as well say stop living because you're lights, heat, and hot water should be turned off too.

There is absolutely NO benefit to smoking a cigarette at all. A car gets you to the grocery store, to the bank, to your job, to buy your clothes... oh and to the corner store to buy your cigarettes.

^No kidding... If you want to do something that makes you feel good, why spend it on smokes? Atleast use your money on something worth while... go buy some booze.

Yea smoking is way worse than Alcohol; there are so many people that smoke a cigarette or two, get in their cars, crash, and kill people. And don't get me started about people who smoke and then start fights, or vandalize others' property.
Being around someone who is sloppy drunk is just as unpleasant as being around someone who smells like smoke. Smoking is just not in fashion right now. Give it a few decades and it will be cool again. Then uncool. Then cool– and the politics will follow, since politics are defined by what is popular rather than what is right or fair.
I find it so hilarious that marijuana is being slowly legalized while cigarettes are becoming more and more criminal.

^Yeah... I really wasn't serious.

My point to this rant is:
Smokers ONE, non smoking bitchy whiney snobby don't know shit, think they're beter than everyone else, ignorant, gay, and stupid a-holes (excluding the fine people of SSC of course :) ) a BIG FAT ZERO!

You should be banned for making a anti-gay statement like this, Ignoring that fact that gay men and lesbians are taught to hate themselves to such an extent that their rates of smoking are MUCH HIGHER than the general population (i.e., if you want to look gay, then SMOKE!), using "gay" as a general slur is very derogatory.

If you're stupid enough to smoke then you're too stupid to understand this complaint so I'll just refer it to the mods. DON'T USE "GAY" AS A SLUR, DUMBASS, THERE ARE GAY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD AND AT LEAST ONE OF THEM CAN KICK YOUR ASS!!

There is absolutely NO benefit to smoking a cigarette at all.
Calms the nerves
Can provide a small high
Gets me off my ass and out of the house or office
Provides more tax money to the gov't (though it could be argued more is needed to cover health-care costs in the end ;) )
Can assist in socializing

Of course the negatives far outweigh the positives but there are benefits or I doubt it would be as popular as it is.

I go out of my way when outdoors to blow my smoke away from where anyone might catch a whiff. If they do and still complain, well f^&k them. I could have just as easily had garlic (bad) breath or a cold/flu which would have been much more harmful to them. Those are just both relatively invisible in comparison.

^I know what u mean but the small high is non-existant after your first couple weeks of smoking. And to use an example such as it calms you down isn't very good either becasue smoking is what made you dependant on that. You don't see people that have never smoked a day in their lives that are very stressed out saying, "MAN I NEED A SMOKE!"

Besides, why does smoking make u get outside. Get off your ass and do some sports instead of smoking. It kind of sounds like ur a new commer to ciggarettes. Trust me, stop while your ahead.

Oh my god this was just a frigging joke guys. Notice the smiley face. For shits sakes some of you guys take things waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to seriously. Did'nt you notice the tone of my conversation, talking about drunk debates and all. It was just a sarcastic comment. I mean Damn, really.

Anyways, I was'nt defending the practise of smoking and even said quitting is the best thing. I was merely giving a defense to the argument that second hand smoke is so bad for you.

The Anti-Cheesehead.
As for that guy, he was a prick, but most smokers are'nt like that. I certainly never did that. But to be the devil's advocate, when you are scorned at all the time, made to smoke in the cold (we can't smoke in bars in Ontario) outside, and then someone 10ft away is complaining to you, you tend to get a little ticked off. However, in a bar that guy was an ass.
The argument is not bullshit. I live in a communtiy within Toronto where only about 20% drive. If your in a city, it IS NOT a necessity, but a matter of convenience. You can always get to work using public transit, but in some cases it is so inconvenient (over 2hrs for example) you CHOOSE not to.
Aside from that, people CHOOSE SUV's as opposed to compact. People CHOOSE gas as opposed to hybrid.
Finally, smokers here can't smoke in any indoor public place (with some very few exceptions). So the argument that smokers think they can smoke anywhere they want is not valid here.

Jaran:
Even if cars were responsible for 1/3rd of all air pollution. That would still equate to 2000 deaths a year. Twice as much as second hand smoke. So the argument is valid. And yes smoking is a necessity if your addicted. Quitting was by far the hardest thing I had done in my life. It's stupid to start, but if you did for whatever reason, that's no reason to treat me like shit, which is exactly what society does now.
You know how they have this fat war starting up now. Imagine if they went up to fat people and gave them a disgusted look and said in right in there face, "your taking my healthcare dollars because you can't stop eating". Well that gives you a bit of an idea of how it felt like to be ridiculed by some guy who does'nt want smoke anywhere around him. I remember plenty of times where I smoked a good 12-15ft away from a person, and so often THEY STILL COMPLAINED!!!

j4893k: I would rather have 20% of the population as smokers than as alcoholics. I'm sure MADD would agree with me on this point.


furrycanuck: I apologize for using the word gay. You should know it was intended as a joke, but you pulled one word form an otherwise long dumb rant of mine. However, as I did place that word in myself, I am sorry.
Saying I should be banned though? Come on, you have seen way worse on SSC. And I never insulted gays directly. You really think I said that out of malice? But, when people go nuts over a word in this politically correct world of ours, people than really do get pissed off for being censored and take their hate on the very people that the censoring was supposed to protect.
By the way, a good friend of mine is gay (and I freely call him a faggot all the time, and we laugh about it), and I will happen to be his best man. So, don't judge me on a damn word.
However, if it upset you so much, it would have made more sense if you sent me a private email, don't you think?
P.S I don't smoke...I am a past smoker.

Finally, out of the 1000 premature death in Canada as a result of second hand smoke, I would take a gander that the majority is in homes and family related. Almost no death is probably related to getting second hand smoke in outdoor places (Once again, talking about Ontario laws). Even in indoor places, while workers at bars (who buy the way for the most part smoke, I used to date a waitress who said she never in her life from personal experience knew a fellow waitress who did'nt smoke). may get exposed, it probably still does'nt come close to the death from in-home smoking.

So, people were brainwashed into thinking that second hand smoke is soooo bad in public when it's not. It stinks? Hell yeah. So does being behind a car when the petrid fuel stew comes out. So does garbage walking along Chinatown in Toronto. So does that homeless guy whose talking to himself. So do I right about now (I'm gonna take a shower...lol).

Anyways, it was just a joke. I'm going to request the moderator just close this thread as it has no bearing to urban issues anyways and I was just trying to get people to laugh.

Smoking doesn't just stink. It is a strong irritant that can cause all kinds of problems for people with various lung conditions. For example, 7 to 8% of Canadians have asthma. Smoke is a major asthma trigger.

I think smoking should be banned in any public place.

Upon re-reading my inital post, I think people may have though I implied ALL non-smokers (which would then be me too) were bitchy whiney snobby don't know shit, think they're beter than everyone else, ignorant, and stupid a-holes (excluding the fine people of SSC of course). Taking out the smiley face as apparantly that does'nt seem to imply the typical...haha..gentle elbow to the ribs...let's all have a laugh.

I implied those who complain about it when your outside having a smoke. My mistake was to post this in Canada section when it should be in Ontario/Toronto where the laws are different. Smoking is banned in all 'public indoor places' (exception to legions and casinos...oh and possibly bingo, not sure).

Funny enough, they want to ban smoking rooms even though only smokers (and willing friends) are in there, and laws state that people cannot be served there so workers won't get exposed. So why are they being banned? Trying to make smokers feel even more like second class citizens? There is no valid argument to such a law. It's just malicious.
Zonie:
Your absolutely right and I know as my brother had severe asthma as a child, but that still goes right into the initial post I said. Air pollutants are also very unhealthy for athmatics. Smog days in Toronto is always coincided with spikes with asthma attacks.

My point is, it's unfair to blame smokers and let car drivers scotch free.
Especially since I chose to take the Subway 1hr and 15 minutes each way everyday for 5yrs (now I bike as I have a different work location) when I could have driven it in 15 minutes!
Especially when I choose to lug about 6 heavy bags of groceries and a very heavy backpack from my grocery store to my home.
Especially when I choose to go to bars, clubs and then walk home (and also not go drinking and driving as some people, more so suburbanites, choose to).
And yet as a smoker, I was the bad guy. The filthy person spreading his vile smoke. OH please, spare me the lecture.
A deal is a deal. Everyone buy hybrid or don't drive, and smokers then should stop smoking anywhere. Until then, learn to live with it. If you have a problem with it...here's a really cool idea to fix it. Use those things that you call legs...you know you have two of them...and proceed to move one in about a foot to the left. Now, do this with your other foot. Repeat steps noted above until you are a fair distance from the nuicance. If nuicance then approaches you anyways, you know that he is a dick. Proceed to kick in the crotch.
This was a joke guys....a joke....haha....okay then.

You should be banned for making a anti-gay statement like this, Ignoring that fact that gay men and lesbians are taught to hate themselves to such an extent that their rates of smoking are MUCH HIGHER than the general population (i.e., if you want to look gay, then SMOKE!), using "gay" as a general slur is very derogatory.

If you're stupid enough to smoke then you're too stupid to understand this complaint so I'll just refer it to the mods. DON'T USE "GAY" AS A SLUR, DUMBASS, THERE ARE GAY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD AND AT LEAST ONE OF THEM CAN KICK YOUR ASS!!

Oh, and to prove my point that there's worse out there (should they get banned too?)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=266673

Obviously I a bit riled up by all the attacks based on my comments hense my repeated posts...I'll stop now...I mean it this time...sorry...damn...stupid ass politically correct world we live in. I'm going to tell my gay friends, black friends, female friends that I can't have a sense of humour anymore due to censorship laws. But they can still say the derogatory words themselves because progression means double standard....and that's okay right? Thank you Progression!!!

I smoke , its not very pleasnt . I actually feel embarrased when Im in public smoking by my self . Do I want to get pushed to the back of the room , no but thats the way it is . Non smokers have their space and we have ours. If a non smoker walks into the smoking room and puts upa fuss I'll tell them to f*ck off and beat it. Im not comming out in the rest of the bar and blowing my smoke at people . Cars are not on the same playing field , they ( IMO ) are important . as far as the Gay thing , if your gay , get over it . What is the politicaly correct term anyways? do we get mad when a gay person makes a comment about streight people ? NO so grow up and quit beeing a baby . I have lots of Gay friends and friends of other races as well . I get called Honkey and , White boy , do I cry my self to sleep ? no and neather should you . If I offended anyone here ... I dont care , there are more important things to worry about . now if youll excuse my I need a smoke :)

Even if cars were responsible for 1/3rd of all air pollution. That would still equate to 2000 deaths a year. Twice as much as second hand smoke.
compare the percentage of people who drive and the percentage of people who smoke in canada. the number of second hand smoke deaths per smoker is way higher than the number of smog deaths per driver.

LMAO Rhino. That's funny.

Brighter Hell, very good point. I'll adjust my numbers for this. Assumption (could'nt find numbers on a google search). 40% of Canadians drive and 20% of Canadians smoke. As this is twice, I should divide the 2000 by two. This would give me 1000. That is tied with the amount of death related to second hand smoke. So, both are equally deadly.
The main argument for car drivers is the need vs luxury debate. Driving is much more important than smoking a butt. Cars pollution is an unfortunate reality in other words.
The main argument of smokers is that it mostly effects family and willing friends, not general society. As such, it is not a major detriment to society as a whole, but could be to those individual families.

But I must stress once again. The point of all this is that it is unfair to criticize smokers for second hand smoke. If your going to blame one, you have to blame the other. The double standard is unfair. Yes second hand smoke is bad, but so are alot of other things, but smokers more than any other group in society, are blamed for the damage inflicted.
You blame smokers for second hand smoke, blame car drivers for driving.
You blame smokers for costing the healthcare system, blame fat people for eating to much.
You blame smokers for the stink, blame people who choose not to wear deodarant or eat garlic.
Don't blame smokers for every ail in life but let everyone off free. Or alternatively, blame smokers for all of lifes ail, but blame everyone else as well.

See what I'm trying to get across?

well said

Trying to defend second hand smoke and using cars as an example isnt much of an argument.

hope your family will never have to go through all the pains and agony ...

My family is vehemently anti-smoking, and all of my relatives have stamped out any smoking habits. The only person that still smokes is my 100-year old great grandmother, but that's only because she doesn't really have all that much time left anyways. Nobody in my close family (siblings, parents) have ever smoked and we never intend to). On my dad's side of the family my gramps smoked and died of a heart attack because of it (his arteries were clogged as hell). My grandma is on an oxygen tank and constantly in the hospital because smoking destroyed her lungs (she quit a few years ago). One of my aunts used to smoke but quit a few years ago as well, years ago she gave me a jacket that I have never worn (it still reeks, absolutely disgusting).

My point, you want to kill yourself with that shit? Fine, but do it the f*ck away from me!

With smoking, a select few ruin it for everyone, while with cars almost everyone is doing it anyway. One cigarette is alot more obvious and annoying than that of one car. Secondhand smoke is mostly a problem indoors in a much smaller space than a car outdoors. Two very different things and aren't similar at all and so they shouldn't be compared.

Because everyone is doing it that makes it okay. Don't buy that argument. Stand behind a car at an intersection just as the accelerator is pressed. Tell me if that is less annoying than the second hand smoke. And tell me also if it's less obvious.
I think a comparison is valid for the sole purpose of getting people to lay off smokers.
Your right Boris550, if smokers want to kill themselves, they have every right to, and you you don't like the second hand smoke, YOU can move away. It's not always a one way street where the smoker must constantly be shuffled around.
There are a-hole smokers, but the most are just regular joe's. Don't give them such a hard time.

Anyways, on the topic of smokers, one other pet peeve I have is the dumb commercials they had to get teenagers and young youth to quit. If you are a smoker, and under 25yrs you probably know where I"m coming from. The marketing gurus are complete morons and have no understanding of a younger segment.

The two most common commercials are the future health risks, which while valid, is not a concern to someon 18yrs old. The general reaction..."oh well I'll be 70yrs old, what do I care" or "at least I won't live that long, growing old sucks". So these commercials don't have a huge impact on youth, but only the older generations.

The second is the peer pressure commercials. This usualy involves some teenager telling you that "I chose not to smoke, because it's not cool to". This is a complete flop because it involves adults telling teenagers what is and is not cool. Big No no. By saying it's uncool, you just made it cool. Aside from that the acting is very fake.

So, if I were the marketing guru, I would follow the line that private beer companies used to get people to stop drinking and driving (anybody remember that commercial where that guy passes out in teh subway drunk as hell and missed his stop? Hilarious).

Since long term health and the "coolness" factor don't get people to quit, what does?
Sex, money and CURRENT health.

Current health ad: You see a dude chasing after a public bus before he misses it, can't run fast enough and the bus just leaves. You see him there panting the hell away, visibly angry. Then he sparks up a cig. Goes to black screen with white writing saying "Yeah, that's why I smoke!"
Alternatively, you can do something similar, but a guy just gets the cut from a football/hockey team. Tells a friend on the sidelines what happened, and both spark up saying, "I have no idea why they say you are'nt fit?" Also end with "Yeah, that's why I smoke".

Sex: Ahhh this one always gets to you. This would have to do with how you smell after smoking.
One could involve a guy checking out a girl (or vice versa) and as the girl approaches you see smoke billow out to her. Suddenly she veers away looking a bit disgusted.
Variation. Guys sprays cologne to try to cover it up, girl notices and gives that "oh please" look. Guys pissed off.

Money: A cute looking girl approaches a guy, really shyly asks if he would want to go to a movie (or other event). You see the guys face is in shock. Flip scenes to a "5 Minute earlier...." You see a guy just finishing ordering a pack of smokes at the store. Camara rapidly zooms in on his wallet....fucking empty.

And finally, the stupidity one. You see a guy with his lips around a tailpipe sucking the crap in and gagging. His friends who are initiating him are in the background laughing there head off. One friend says "What a moron" just as he takes a drag of a smoke.
Ends with, "what's the difference".

Okay, that's my marketing for a day.

Your right Boris550, if smokers want to kill themselves, they have every right to, and you you don't like the second hand smoke, YOU can move away.

It's not like smokers killing themselves doesn't have an effect on non-smokers. Smokers who kill themselves by smoking usually die a slow death and are a drain on a healthcare system. Smokers cost non-smokers money.

Your right Boris550, if smokers want to kill themselves, they have every right to, and you you don't like the second hand smoke, YOU can move away. It's not always a one way street where the smoker must constantly be shuffled around.

Don't get me wrong. I give smokers their space as well. I usually operate on an "I was here first" principle. I don't mind if someone were there first smoking, I will gladly avoid that person. But if I'm standing around waiting for a bus and someone comes along and decides to light up there, that just annoys the crap outta me.

Also if a smoker is a healthy distance away from me (that is, I cannot smell the cigarette) and the wind suddenly changes so that I am downwind, I will also just move, as it wasn't that smoker's fault.

That said, I do not think that smoking should be permitted in any establishment, and I support any smoking bylaws.

My pet peeve with smokers is the many cigarette butts littering the floor, whether it's at a public park or outside on the sidewalks and streets. They deter from the area's asthetics, and are potential fire hazards.

It's not like smokers killing themselves doesn't have an effect on non-smokers. Smokers who kill themselves by smoking usually die a slow death and are a drain on a healthcare system. Smokers cost non-smokers money.

Fat people cause non-fat people money.
Car drivers cost non-car drivers money.
AIDS victims cost non-AIDS people money.

What's your point? Lots of costs are incurred by society as a whole due to the actions (accidental or intentional) of a few.

My pet peeve with smokers is the many cigarette butts littering the floor, whether it's at a public park or outside on the sidewalks and streets. They deter from the area's asthetics, and are potential fire hazards.

That is also a pet peeve of mine. However, in defense of smokers. What are the alternatives (before these new bins came in Toronto).
They could'nt put in in the garbage can for risk of starting a fire. They were'nt going to hold a burning ojbect in there hand. And while they could technically hold on to it after butting it out, they don't just like people who spit gum out don't (also another pet peeve).
The answer to that is to have ashtrays available. These new garbage cans (the big billboard ones) at least do have it available.

By the way. A building I used to work at had alot of smokers in it. They used to smoke in the back emergency staircase not being a bother to anyone. Then laws came into effect barring smoking indoors. They had to remove the ashtrays. People continued to smoke in the back staircase (it was a low quality industrial warehouse, the staircase was dingy and dark.) and this time threw the butts on the ground.

Don't get me wrong. I give smokers their space as well. I usually operate on an "I was here first" principle. I don't mind if someone were there first smoking, I will gladly avoid that person. But if I'm standing around waiting for a bus and someone comes along and decides to light up there, that just annoys the crap outta me.

Also if a smoker is a healthy distance away from me (that is, I cannot smell the cigarette) and the wind suddenly changes so that I am downwind, I will also just move, as it wasn't that smoker's fault.

That said, I do not think that smoking should be permitted in any establishment, and I support any smoking bylaws.

That is the most reasonable thing I have heard in this thread. That is exactly what should happen. First come, first serve. However, you are a reasonable person. Many are not.

That is also a pet peeve of mine. However, in defense of smokers. What are the alternatives (before these new bins came in Toronto).
They could'nt put in in the garbage can for risk of starting a fire. They were'nt going to hold a burning ojbect in there hand. And while they could technically hold on to it after butting it out, they don't just like people who spit gum out don't (also another pet peeve).
The answer to that is to have ashtrays available. These new garbage cans (the big billboard ones) at least do have it available.

By the way. A building I used to work at had alot of smokers in it. They used to smoke in the back emergency staircase not being a bother to anyone. Then laws came into effect barring smoking indoors. They had to remove the ashtrays. People continued to smoke in the back staircase (it was a low quality industrial warehouse, the staircase was dingy and dark.) and this time threw the butts on the ground.

Maybe we could work out something like the "scoop you dog's poop" Law, where every smoker should bring their own container (I thinking maybe ashtray with lid(?)- I'm sure an ingenious entrepreneur will come up with an original concept) to store these butts. Of course, they'll have to be fire-resistant.

Why not just equip every garbage can with an mini-ashtray on the side? Self contained department with sand so it does'nt mix in with the rest of the garbage?

Smokers will be much more willing to butt out in an ashtray than dragging around a mini-butt holder. Even if you argue it is there civic duty to do so, they won't do it just like people spit, spit gum, and throw butts currently.

Plus it would suck for a fire to accidentally break out in your pants while you are riding on the train...

Why not just equip every garbage can with an mini-ashtray on the side? Self contained department with sand so it does'nt mix in with the rest of the garbage?

Smokers will be much more willing to butt out in an ashtray than dragging around a mini-butt holder. Even if you argue it is there civic duty to do so, they won't do it just like people spit, spit gum, and throw butts currently.

Agreed. But would cities be willing to cover the extra tab though? Maybe the bill could be mailed to tobacco companies?

Well they are in Toronto under the proposal.
And my guess is it will save money. It would be cheaper to pick it all up in one place than having a guy broom each individual butt from the floor. If it's incorporated into the garbage can, costs are reduced due to economies of scale.
An ad campaign would have to start to convince people to use them as it's almost force of habit to chuck it on the floor now.

Fat people cause non-fat people money.
Car drivers cost non-car drivers money.
AIDS victims cost non-AIDS people money.

What's your point? Lots of costs are incurred by society as a whole due to the actions (accidental or intentional) of a few.

I was waiting for this response. Hey, you started this thread...in defense of smokers, not in defense of fat people, or in defense of AIDS victims. Besides, some people can't help that they're fat, and some people were born with AIDS. Smoking is 100% choice.

Why not just equip every garbage can with an mini-ashtray on the side? Self contained department with sand so it does'nt mix in with the rest of the garbage?

Smokers will be much more willing to butt out in an ashtray than dragging around a mini-butt holder. Even if you argue it is there civic duty to do so, they won't do it just like people spit, spit gum, and throw butts currently.
why penalise taxpayers for the habits of a few?
but a mini-butt holder is an excellent biz idea or invention. :rock:

An ad campaign would have to start to convince people to use them as it's almost force of habit to chuck it on the floor now.

We would need something more convincing than an ad campaign. I know this idea isn't necessarily popular in the North America, but in places like Singapore or Hong Kong, litter bugs are fined $1,500 HKD (~250CAD). It has proven to be quite effective, and Hong Kong's public areas are much cleaner than they were 5 -10 years ago. Back then, almost every street would be in violation of public health codes, now I would say around 30%.

It has also lightened the workload of street-cleaners.

It's not like smokers killing themselves doesn't have an effect on non-smokers. Smokers who kill themselves by smoking usually die a slow death and are a drain on a healthcare system. Smokers cost non-smokers money.The reality is, the government makes money on smokers.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=10594
http://www.smokingsection.com/swafr.htm

Helsnkiborg: Because very few smokers would bother to ever buy this product (I know I would have never bothered) and so littering would continue unabated. At least with ashtrays there will be a noticeable reduction in litter.
And as I said in a previous post, this would save money as it is cheaper than having ot pick up individual butts all over the street.

rt 0891: While this idea would reduce littering, you know the gov't would never implement such a thing in Canada. Also very hard to enforce.

Wonderwall: I would be reluctant to look to deep into those websites. The latter is obviously biased. But more importantly, they are US sites. We have public healthcare, they don't. So it's impossible to compare numbers.
However, there was some good points in the articles. Thanks for sharing.

Today its smokers and in 10 years they'll target fat people and try to eliminate them too.

My aunt worked for the Registrar General of Ontario for 13 years.

Not ONCE was smoking listed as a cause of death.

My aunt worked for the Registrar General of Ontario for 13 years.

Not ONCE was smoking listed as a cause of death.

So what are you saying? Nobody died from smoking related illnesses in Ontario in the 13 years that your Aunt worked for Registrar General of Ontario?

Long live Cigarettes, Beer and Sex...they all go good together... Well, smoke after the sex is done!

My aunt worked for the Registrar General of Ontario for 13 years.

Not ONCE was smoking listed as a cause of death.

No, but I guarantee that there were many deaths caused by smoking related illnesses - lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc over that time period. Smoking is not a cause of death - it causes many completely avoidable diseases that happen to be deadly.

No, but I guarantee that there were many deaths caused by smoking related illnesses - lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc over that time period. Smoking is not a cause of death - it causes many completely avoidable diseases that happen to be deadly.

Jesus, I can't believe you even needed to explain that. Smoking kills people, period. Smoking is a cause of death, just not a very specific cause. Just like car accidents. The car accident kills someone, but the cause of death will be some sort of trauma, drowning, etc.

Gotta agree with anti-cheesehead here. This thread is about second hand smoke, not actual smoking. Smoking kills people period. It's best that all people quit (but it should'nt be forced upon people to do so).
Being technical about it does'nt negate the fact that it was the smoking that caused it in the first place.
It's like saying a person who did suicide death was caused by severe head truama. Or, maybe we would just say...ummm dude jumped off a bridge and went smack. That was the cause of death.

If I was going to smoke it would be weed, you don't smoke it as often and at least it gets you high LOL. Im more likely to give someone shit for smoking cigarettes then pot.

You would have to be retarded to smoke it costs like 10 bucks a day same as a mickey, if I was goin kill my self slowly I would drink one of those every day over smoking. :cheers:

Smoking kills people period. It's best that all people quit

I think some people really don't have any idea of how bad tobacco is for you. People know you can die, but I don't think the full reality really registers with most people unless they knew someone who died.

I lost a really good friend this year, who I've known since 2nd grade, to mouth cancer. He was 27 years old. He chewed tobacco, but you can get mouth cancer from smoking too. The last time I saw him was about 3 weeks before he died and I'm telling you, it was the worst thing I've ever seen in my entire life. He was skin and bone and his whole head was swollen, his eyes swollen shut, he couldn't talk because he had a tube in his throat, and he couldn't even stand up. I can't emphasize that enough, it was horrible, and he had been suffering through radiation and chemo for 3 years. He had also been in and out of the hospital because his throat kept closing up. That's how he eventually died.

I don't know how anyone here can't know how bad smoking is. The kind of stuff they show you year after year in school is just gruesome. There are also sickening images on a lot of the cigarette packs, and a shitload of TV advertisements. Yet people still shrug it off as if it wasn't already scientifically proven and wasn't agreed on by every authority out there.

I think we can all Agree , smoking sucks . some do it ( I for one ) even though others dont want us to . I believe that 80 % of smokers intend to quit , just never get to it .
So , theres a lot of things that people do that we dont like but we cant do anything about it . Smokers know that Non smokers dont enjoy smoke in thier direction , we are not mentaly disfunctional . May be we should just implement a live and let die policy ? If we get sick , its our fault . but hey , Im trying to quit , sorta , when the time is right ,after christmas unless the inlaws come over , or theres a Canuck game . OR an ellection .... Ill get to it some day ( I think ) .

I think smoking should be banned in any public place.
douche

I guess I should have said I support smoking bans in most places. Not bars, bingo parlors or coffee shops (because that's where most people go to smoke) but other than that, anywhere that's "kif/family friendly" should be non-smoking.

And, they still "don't have proof" that smoking causes most of that.

Instead of advertising how bad it is, why not put money to helping people quit? Maybe cover nicorette with health care.

Now, let's tell me why that's a bad idea! :D

^ no way. Too many tax dollars would be lost from reduced tabacco sales.

Instead of advertising how bad it is, why not put money to helping people quit? Maybe cover nicorette with health care.

Now, let's tell me why that's a bad idea! :D


YOu know what, I used to agree with you on that point. Nicorrette, Patches & Zyban should be covered by healthcare as teh least the gov't can do to help smokers quit since they are giving cigerrete taxes.

Now I think prices should rise. Not because I'm being a dick to smokers, but because of personal experiences quitting.
See, when the patch for example is free, you can pick it up anytime and won't feel guilty for using them all up, or for that matter, taking it on, then off and a new one on again only a couple hours later. It's supposed to be on all day long.
By charging for it, your more responsible. I remember not wanting to buy a pack of smokes because it would cost me $8 for a pack plus the $35 for the pack of patches. By making a pack just as expensive as a carton of smokes, you would feel really stupid for buying patches and STILL buying packs of smokes.
Finally, if your succesful in quitting, the cost of the patches is less than smokes so your not actually spending more.