Official Leeds Thread 4 [Archive]

daveylad2

October 20th, 2005, 03:18 PM

I found this mildly amusing. From some website.

Our "Local Shop" is Morrisons at Merrion Centre, Leeds. If you ever visit from out of town, please; be very careful, for there's nothing for strangers here....

I should point out that this opinion doesn't cover Morrissons as a whole, just this particular store - and I will get on to the product selection, layout, freshness and all that later on, but first I think it would be useful to give you an idea about the atmosphere of this store, and the strange goings-on within.

Morrisons (Mossers, as it's known to the locals) is the 'flagship store' of the Merrion Centre, although this flag is probably flown at half-mast. Merrion Centre itself is probably the worst shopping centre in Europe - and that's no idle boast! It houses Britain's first multi-story car park, which remains, pretty much unchanged since the day it was born in the late 1950s along with the rest of the concrete-and-tile abomination.

The Merrion Centre never closes: it has a kind of footpath running through it which is open day and night. Perfect for attracting tramps, drunken louts and dog turds, which it invariably does. On a good day with the wind in the right direction, the smell of pee can be savoured for miles around. First thing every morning, a strange leprechaun dressed in green pushes a mower up and down the ageing floor-tiles of the centre, ensuring that they are kept slippery enough for people passing though to fall over, and possibly break their necks.

I digress.... Morrisons.

Tubbs works on the cigarette counter, Edward collects the baskets. I half expect him to pull out a crossbow at any moment. Iris the cleaner works the tills.

Customers in Morrisons are a strange mix, students, more students and stoned students... pensioners, vagrants and... the odd office worker after 5 pm. I fall into the latter category (I SAID LATTER!) and I, and those like me never fail to be bewildered and entranced by t he horrors within.

Don't wear a tie

If you wear a tie in Morrisons Merrion, pensioners assume you are a member of staff and ask you where the Milk is. This frequently happens to me, and I usually point them in the right direction, although recently wickedness has got the better of me and I've sent them in the direction of ice cream. I hope that temptation has got the better of them and they've spent a few pennies on something nice for themselves.

Watch out!

Given the trolley driving skills exhibited by Morrisons Merrion customers, I would guess that few of them possess a driving licence. Most of them should be sectioned. You will need to pre-empt any agressive trolley motion, or else risk losing an ankle.

Clothes pegs? Aisle four...

You might be needing a clothes peg every now and again at Morrisons. I'm sorry to say that a number of their customers have shocking B.O. And frankly that goes for the guy that collects the baskets as well.

Aw that NOISE!

Morrisons plays an unnerving blend of eighties and nineties music that may differ from your expectations of supermarket sound. Some days they play banging techno, which is unsurprising given that I swear many of their customers are on very strong drugs.

The Store

Ok, enough about the customers you're lumped in-store with, what about the shop(e) itself?

Well it's hardly a modern affair - for one thing it still has those little air tubes on the tills where they bundle up the money and shove it up a vacuum pipe. The floor could certainly do with renewing (but where would everyone go if they closed for refurbishment?) and frankly I wouldn't eat anything out of the ovens at the back.

That said, Morrisons actually offers a comprehensive range of quality goods. It has one of the best fruit and veg sections of any supermarket, and it's range of ethnic foods is absolutely second to none.

Morrisons stock a huge range of tinned goods, much bigger than that of either Sainsbury or Tesco, and have a wonderful selection of cheese, bacon (loads of types of Panchetta) and are generally much cheaper than Sainsbury.

Video cassettes are 79p and bizarrely you can often find cut price recordable CD's for the computer!

Morrisons don't operate a loyalty card (presumably because many of their customers would simply lose them on the way home) so instead concentrate on special offers. These are available aplenty, and are generally really good offers on things you'd want to buy anyway - which is appreciated greatly if you're as tight as me. Some recent examples: 2 four packs of San Miguel (beer)- £5, R Whites Lemondade 2 bottles for 95p, 6 pack of Orange Tango cans, buy 1 get 1 free.

Despite the weirdnesses (localness?) of the shop, I am really fond of Morrisons. I dare say that in it's more modern stores it does offer "the very best for less" but in Merrion Centre it at least raises a smile.

Incidentally, I believe that Morrisons Merrion is their most profitable store (correct me if I'm wrong, Ken). Perhaps this is because they have not spent anything on maintaining the shop since it opened, all those years ago.

If you can stand the strangeness then don't just shop: step back in time. Just keep your wits about you, eh? :-)

Stig282

October 20th, 2005, 04:04 PM

too funny because it's so true!

daveylad2

October 21st, 2005, 12:31 AM

Some info from The Light website:

The Light Lights Up!

Over the next few months there will be some exciting changes happening at The Light. The centre is set to become a major landmark in the city when work is completed to wrap the entire building in light.

Extensive external enhancement works on the scheme will flood the whole building in horizontal light around the perimeter of the scheme both at the very top of the building and around the middle. Entrances and cornices of the building will also be made more of a feature with enhanced lighting on all signage and a moving burst of light that will catch the eye for miles.

Leeds firm, Carey Jones is the architect for the £750,000 project on which work has already begun. The works are due to be finished in early October and once complete we are sure that customers will love what they see.

http://www.thelightleeds.co.uk/images/database/showeventimagefile.asp?ID=323

I've just been past The Light tonight, I really like the new lighting scheme.
It looks quite evil when it turns to red though. I noticed people piling out
from the kaiser chiefs concert at the Town Hall, which was lit up better than normal.

Btw, it was quite busy in Town tonight, there was quite a buzz about the place. You can't beat big events in the heart of the city. The new arena if it is built has to be at Clarence Dock.

Leeds No.1

October 21st, 2005, 12:37 AM

It would be nice to see The buildings along The Headrow lit up at night. Little things like this really make somewhere look exciting and new, and help give it the atmosphere. On 10th November the renowned Christmas Lights will also light up Leeds, and hopefully the Christmas Markets and shopping will put Leeds at its best in the coming month.

I do think The Light looks good, I got this news about 2 days before it was posted here, didnt say anythign though coz I thought it was a bit controversial... I have a feeling that many people will think it looks rubbish and tacky... I'll be going into Leeds on Saturday anyway.

daveylad2

October 21st, 2005, 12:45 AM

I have a feeling that many people will think it looks rubbish and tacky... I'll be going into Leeds on Saturday anyway.

You might be right. I suppose the place does turn a bit tacky after dark anyway, with all the people out getting a bit merry.

Leeds No.1

October 21st, 2005, 01:14 AM

Personally I think it looks good and exciting, and connotates with the name the LIGHT. It helps create an entertainment district- not something bad I dont think, as long as its controlled. City Centres should be exciting places all the time- the amount of people might help drive out some of the burglaries and serious crimes in the city centre even if minor crimes due to drinking might go up.

Fred2

October 21st, 2005, 11:09 AM

[QUOT !E=daveylad2]You might be right. I suppose the place does turn a bit tacky after dark anyway, with all the people out getting a bit merry.[/QUOTE]

I like your line in understatement ! :cheers:

Leeds No.1

October 21st, 2005, 05:41 PM

TENS of thousands of new street lights in Leeds may carry illuminated adverts to help foot the £97m bill.
Leeds City Council plans to replace 76,000 of the city's 95,000 street lights to get rid of the present orange glow with a whiter light.
The scheme would be Private Finance Initiative funded, with the council paying the private firms involved over the 25-year life of the lights.
But to cut £25m from the bill, the council is considering charging for the adverts that would bring in £1m a year.
A plan to use some lampposts as mobile phone transmitter masts has been axed.
The scheme is due to start in July next year, after a pilot project beginning in Beeston and Holbeck. Two firms are bidding for the street light contract. A report to the council scrutiny board states that 10 towns and cities, including Liverpool, Coventry and Rochdale, have already introduced street light advertising.
Adverts would be concentrated on the busiest streets in town centres and the city centre and routes into Leeds.
The pilot scheme in Beeston would feature 19 lampposts, each with two internally illuminated adverts. They will be in Elland Road, Gelderd Road and the ring road. They will be 6ft 8ins high and 4ft 2ins wide.
But Labour's Coun David Congreve (Beeston and Holbeck) said: "I am appalled. This was never given public consultation and ward members were given little chance to voice their opinion until the plans panel meeting.
"I am extremely disappointed that the Beeston and Holbeck area has been singled out. It is blatantly obvious that there are many concerns with the proposal and especially where it will be piloted."
Coun Steven Smith (Lib Dem, Rothwell), said the trial would help develop guidelines and resolve any potential issues: "We will be carrying out consultations with members of the public, local businesses and ward members.
Challenged
"The results will be submitted to the executive board for approval in 2006," he said.
The full scheme has been challenged by a group of academics and residents who say insufficient consideration has been given to environmental issues – including light pollution and energy consumption.
Chartered statistician Dr Paul Marchant, the past president of Leeds Astronomical Society Ray Emery, resident and ex-councillor Frances Jones, and retired physiology lecturer Paul Meeks, have drawn up a detailed document expressing concerns.
Randall Brown, the Council's director of city services, said: "Light pollution and energy consumption are issues that the council takes very seriously and have been integral to the work on the design and negotiations with interested parties."
21 October 2005

Stig282

October 21st, 2005, 05:51 PM

I think it will be a Bad Thing. There's far too much advertising around already.

A Good Thing that they are looking to replace the yellow sodium lights for a cleaner light though.

Skopie

October 21st, 2005, 07:35 PM

Rob

October 21st, 2005, 07:38 PM

I absolutely hate hate hate the orange street lights, I will be so pleased when they start to get rid of them, They have blighted the night times for far too long now, they make the night time urban scene look ghastly and discoloured, and I'm sure increse the crime rate both through poor lighting and the nasty orange glow screwing with peoples minds.

Whenever I'm abroad, I spend the nights just staring at the lovely white lit street scene, even making poor areas look much better.

Leeds No.1

October 21st, 2005, 07:49 PM

I know what you mean. Lights make it look good and add to the atmosphere. This is clear because they wouldn't put up Christmas Lights if they didn't, and Blackpool wouldn't have illuminations if it didn't do anything...

Stig282

October 21st, 2005, 11:15 PM

I absolutely hate hate hate the orange street lights, I will be so pleased when they start to get rid of them, They have blighted the night times for far too long now, they make the night time urban scene look ghastly and discoloured, and I'm sure increse the crime rate both through poor lighting and the nasty orange glow screwing with peoples minds. Agreed!

Whenever I'm abroad, I spend the nights just staring at the lovely white lit street scene, even making poor areas look much better.
as long as you don't sit there rockin and drooling you'll probably get away with it. Funny kind of sightseeing though!

Rob

October 22nd, 2005, 06:06 PM

as long as you don't sit there rockin and drooling you'll probably get away with it. Funny kind of sightseeing though!

It's not like that, its not a deliberate thing, it's like when prisoners are released after years behind bars they stare at the walls of their new home for hours, just because there is colour there instead of the years of grey prison walls, so it is with seeing a night time town bathed in normal light.

SmartCity

October 22nd, 2005, 09:27 PM

I think it will be a Bad Thing. There's far too much advertising around already.

A Good Thing that they are looking to replace the yellow sodium lights for a cleaner light though.

I think the council needs to be careful with this issue. I have seen adverts on street lights in other cities but it must be done right. I think if the design blends in with say, the modern style bus shelters, then they'll look ok.

Leeds No.1

October 22nd, 2005, 10:37 PM

Yes it does depend how its done. In many European cities they do it- sometimes it looks good, sometimes average, sometimes bad. Street Banners advertising probably wouldn't look bad- like similar to the Leeds Live it Love it ones. However it is done, I think it should be done as the city's roads could do with the money to improve the roads- think of all the resurfacing...etc They money could do to a revamp of The Headrow or something...

di Livio

October 23rd, 2005, 12:23 PM

Did anyone else read Caryl Phillips' (ex-Whinmoor) scathing and generally inaccurate article about Leeds in the Saturday Guardian? It's very disappointing given that this guy is one of our higher achieving public figures.

I can't seem to upload it from the website, but it includes lines such as:

"The truth is, for all their cramped poverty, there is a durable history to these red-brick streets that is simply not present in the ephemeral glitter of a Leeds city centre that is trying so hard to reach out and appropriate modernity, as though it is a commodity to be bought on credit at the local supermarket"

and on Leeds' young people...

"I looked closely at the anxious faces of the new youngsters readying themselves for a night out. Their faces appeared pinched and slightly weary, and i felt sure that, behind their impish smiles and sugar-sabotaged teeth, these young people knew that soon it would be their turn for unemployment and early parenthood"

The article was prefaced with a photograph of one of Leeds' new "strangely-angled honeycombed buildings". The fizzing combined courts!

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/18/2002227_87510318.jpg

Now I'm off to contemplate unemployment and early parenthood, whilst simultaneously playing cricket on one of our many city centre 'greens'. :gaah:

di Livio

October 23rd, 2005, 12:37 PM

It's really disappointing given that this guy is one of our higher achieving public figures.

On the subject, I travelled to London recently to see Alan Bennett (a Leodensian in name only) give a reading at the National theatre. It was an uncomfortable experience i can tell you, surrounded by upper middle class Londoners guffawing uncontrollably at the mere mention of places like Castleford, Leeds and Bradford. and surreally, one of them was the stiff ex-newsman Trevor McDonald.

One of the problems Leeds faces in trying to sort out its image is finding people in the media who can talk positively about the place. London journos won't do it, ex-students won't do it, ex-Loiners won't do it. Hey, even i won't do it! So who else is there? The council.

di Livio

October 24th, 2005, 01:07 PM

The Warehouse Hill site is up for sale in Estates Gazette.

http://www.leedscivictrust.org.uk/images/warehillcj2.jpg

and i quite like the photo below

http://www.pmsa.org.uk/gallery/gallery_files/morn-eve-lg.jpg

Stig282

October 24th, 2005, 03:01 PM

The Warehouse Hill site is up for sale in Estates Gazette.

http://www.leedscivictrust.org.uk/images/warehillcj2.jpg
About time - though they've really got to make a statement with the site. It is PRIME location for something stylish. NOT like the picture above!

and i quite like the photo below

http://www.pmsa.org.uk/gallery/gallery_files/morn-eve-lg.jpg
I like City Square - it'll be interesting to see what comes of the redevelopment there.

Leeds No.1

October 24th, 2005, 06:41 PM

City living 'to keep booming for 10 years'
Population set to rocket to
20,000 by 2015
BY NIGEL SCOTT
BUSINESS EDITOR
LEEDS will spearhead a massive £3bn city living boom across the North over the next decade, experts predict.
A major new report compiled by property firm Knight Frank suggests the centre of Leeds will experience a large-scale population explosion – it predicts that by 2015 the population of the city centre will have risen from 9,000 to 20,000, a 122 per cent increase.
Liam Bailey, Knight Frank's head of residential research, said: "We estimate that, to date, there has been over £1.2bn of residential development alone in the five big northern centres of Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and Sheffield.
"Looking forward to planned development, this investment can be regarded as the tip of the iceberg. We estimate that there will be a further £3bn invested in residential development over the next decade."
The report also predicts that the future growth of urban living will be driven, not by young professionals, but by 50 and 60 somethings and families. Britain's ageing population makes the shift inevitable, according to the report, which says that families will be enticed back into city centres as the facilities for them are put in place.
Trend
Knight Frank's report, Future City, has highlighted a trend towards town house and family-friendly developments in cities, with some developers already incorporating convenience stores, crèches and health centres into their schemes.
Julian D'Arcy, head of Knight Frank's residential operations in the North of England, told the Yorkshire Evening Post: "City living will continue to grow in popularity, and developers are taking on board the need for better infrastructure, which will attract older people and families.
"Growing congestion levels in the suburbs makes a home in the city even more attractive."
Knight Frank says that in the ten years up to 2005, more than 16,000 city centre apartments were completed in Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and Sheffield. Another 36,000 are anticipated between now and 2015.
Future City includes a survey of people already living in the North's city centres. Most say they chose to live there because it was close to work and social life. High security and the low maintenance of modern apartments were also plus points.
Most people in the city also wanted green open spaces close by and better public transport.
While the report concentrates on the five main Northern city centres, Knight Frank adds there is also a huge role for other cities and towns in the region, including Wakefield.
24 October 2005

di Livio

October 24th, 2005, 09:02 PM

Northern soul

Caryl Phillips returns to Leeds to see how the city of his youth has changed

Saturday October 22, 2005
The Guardian

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/arts/2005/10/21/riboud3.jpg

Leeds, 1954: where once walked 'men proudly sporting their flat caps, with lunch and a newspaper tucked under their arms, a fag sticking out of their mouths', Phillips now sees a city being rebuilt, its old stone buildings sitting with a solid, patient sobriety, tolerating the transitory evidence of this new technological age'.

As a child growing up in Leeds in the 60s, I remember occasionally crossing the river Aire. My memories are of a dank and uninspiring stretch of water, with gloomy sheds and warehouses lining both banks. When I looked past these buildings, I could make out the brooding outline of Leeds parish church and, if the soot-blackened sky was clear enough for me to see beyond this grand 19th-century structure, there, in the distance, was the grim, vertical evidence of countless chimneys that day and night spewed soot into the air, and that subsequently cast a pall of wintry bleakness over the whole city.

In the centre of Leeds, the river runs close by the Leeds-Liverpool canal. Occasionally we schoolboys were encouraged to undertake educational walks along the towpath of the unhappy canal, and march, two by two, into the so-called "countryside" in order that our teachers might introduce us to "nature". However, the sight of an odd tree could always be quickly put into perspective by glancing back toward the city, which was a place where - aside from the grass that decorated our beloved football pitches - we understood that "nature" did not really exist. To stand shivering on the towpath in blazer, short pants and school cap set at a jaunty angle, and scrutinise the skyline, was immediately to understand that this vast forest of tall chimneys and towers constituted the reality of our home city. The trees of the "countryside" were merely a temporary illusion.
My parents arrived in Leeds towards the end of the 50s, carrying me as hand luggage. They had heard that opportunities for employment were greater in the north of England, and somewhere at the back of their minds they hoped that should they find work and make a home, then perhaps, one day, it might be possible for their son to achieve an education in this northern city. They found a house on a cobbled street, where people hung out their washing to dry as though their vests and pants and bras were some form of celebratory bunting. But there was precious little to celebrate. I remember being taken down to the end of "our street" by my teenage babysitter and hoisted up into the wintry air so I might peer over the wall and stare at the murky canal. But even as a small child, I already understood that there was something distinctly unsatisfactory about both "our street" and the canal.

Neither of my parents came from wealth or privilege - far from it - but on the long journey across the Atlantic, it never occurred to either of them that they might find themselves living in such dismal conditions. However, they soon discovered that their back-to-back house, which stood at the open end of a cobbled cul-de-sac, was no different from thousands of other red-brick houses that dominated the narrow streets and gentle hills of Leeds. The stinking privies were located in the middle of the block, and my whole childhood seems to have been dominated by olfactory assaults, both those in the street and those that had their origins in the house itself. I distinctly remember the musty smell of the open coal fire, the acrid sting of the paraffin heater on particularly cold nights and the lingering bouquet of chamber pots that were discreetly tucked under the bed, but that saved my parents the nightmare of having to venture outside in the middle of a freezing night in order to relieve themselves.

During the day I used to sit on the doorstep and dream of one day owning a tricycle on which I might explore my city. My English playmates were as thin and gaunt as their parents. I used to watch their mams and dads sloping off to work, the men proudly sporting their flat caps, with lunch and a newspaper tucked under their arms, a fag sticking out of their mouths. From my doorstep I surveyed the bell-shaped towers of the gasworks, and the grey sky that was spiked with chimneys that never seemed to tire of belching smoke, and the dramatically shaped spires of the many churches, which were, in their own way, as darkly ominous as the factories. To my young eyes, Leeds never appeared to be truly glum or depressing. But this was not the case for my parents who, back in the Technicolor Caribbean, had sternly refused to believe that English people were crazy enough actually to light fires inside their houses. Strange new world to their immigrant eyes, but their son was clearly seeing something else.

I remember occasional glamorous sightings, such as men in bowler hats, carrying rolled umbrellas, representatives of Edwardian courtliness, emerging from the pubs and clubs of Leeds, and mingling with the Lowry-like figures on the street. A sighting of the crumpled elegance of these "posh" men, who had no doubt levered a post-work reflective half-pint before deciding now to make their way home, lit up my day. As did a glimpse of the rag-and-bone man, with his horse and cart, bellowing as he came down the street to collect any junk. At the end of his day he would retire to the neighbourhood dump, where he would scour through debris in the hope that he might make one or two scavenged "discoveries" before taking his horse back to the yard for the night.

Today, I look back on my "glamorous" Leeds childhood and remember it as being peopled with somewhat stoic individuals, all of whom, if truth be told, seemed to move in purposeful isolation from each other. But this was my world, and I was not unhappy with it. After all, I knew nothing else. Neither on television, nor at the pictures, did I hear others who spoke like us, with broad, flat vowels, and I hardly ever saw images of narrow, bumpy streets like ours, or people who looked anything like us, but it didn't matter. Leeds was my city, and I slowly developed a great pride in it, a pride that was enhanced by the existence of Leeds United Football Club in their spotlessly white kit, a team who tormented their opposition with industrial efficiency and bestowed upon me, and countless tens of thousands of others, a reason to walk tall and declare, "We are Leeds." From the late 60s and on into the 70s, we were the best there was. We knew it, and "they" knew it. What this decidedly unmodern city lacked in charisma, the football team more than made up for.

I left Leeds in the 70s, but even before that there were signs that the city was beginning to change and enter the modern world. Double-decker buses had long since replaced the antiquated trams, and the various local railway stations had closed down and Leeds now possessed just one large, central station. Plans were set in motion for soot-blackened civic buildings to be blasted back to their original sand colour, and Leeds City Council announced its intention to construct a number of major new structures and lay out a complex urban motorway system. My city, which, long after the second world war, still seemed trapped in an era of Dickensian poverty and faded Edwardian gentility, was now attempting to embrace the new, but it was precisely at this point that I left Leeds and travelled south to finish school and start university. I was no longer a child, and the "glamour" of the city had begun to fade for me. While I could never be ashamed of Leeds, largely because of the football team, I was no longer sure whether I still liked the place. I did, however, know I had begun to imagine that bright lights and opportunity lay elsewhere.

It was more than 30 years later that we found ourselves getting to know each other again. There had, of course, been sporadic visits in between, but I had never lingered long enough to take a deep breath and absorb the full nature of the transformation. However, on my most recent visit I was able to explore, and so here it was, the new 21st-century Leeds that civic leaders were now comparing to Barcelona. You had to be kidding me, right? My city of dark, satanic mills was many things, but surely nobody would have the temerity to compare it to Barcelona! As I walked the streets, and retraced the footsteps of my childhood and youth, it soon became apparent why the boosters for the city would think of the bustling, colourful Catalonian city, with its sidewalk cafes and humming nightlife, as the yardstick for this new Leeds.

The city centre has been largely rebuilt in an architectural fusion of glass and metal. Everywhere there are strangely angled, honeycombed buildings that form a brightly coloured backdrop for the multicultural medley of people who now constitute the population of Leeds. In this new Leeds, the new buildings frame the new people. But the old stone buildings of the city, most of which have now been sandblasted clean, sit with a solid, patient sobriety, tolerating the transitory evidence of this new and overtly self-conscious technological age.

Transitory, yes. Leeds has seen it all before, this history of rushing to embrace the modern, only to have to turn around eventually and tear it down. In the 1930s, the Quarry Hill Flats were constructed right in the heart of the city centre, a vast, sprawling housing estate, a kind of urban Colditz, that was the biggest of its type in Britain. But as I walked about the city, I soon discovered that the Quarry Hill Flats were no more, and in their place I could see the grand structure of the West Yorkshire Playhouse and the even grander edifice of the national headquarters of the department of health, a building so lacking in architectural elegance that it is already something of a local joke.

I walked out of the centre to the south and in the direction of Hunslet, where 35 years ago I lived briefly in a brand-new purpose-built complex of flats called Hunslet Grange. When I got there, I was shocked to discover that the whole mini-metropolis had been razed to the ground. A local man informed me that the flats lasted little over a decade before they were declared unfit for human habitation. "Fit for bloody rabbits," was his succinct summary of their merits.

In many parts of this new Leeds, once "modern" buildings have been torn down and replaced with "modern" buildings, while the evidence of the old and durable sits staring the city in the face. To my middle-aged eyes, the great majority of these older buildings, far from shrinking with the years into old-fashioned obscurity, seem to have doubled in size, including the stunning town hall that, when Queen Victoria opened it in 1858, was one of the largest civic buildings in Europe. Leeds town hall, and the vast majority of the other "old" buildings, seem to me to be representative of the enduring strength of the city; its backbone against decay, its defence against architectural vandalism, its moral core.

In this new Leeds, one doesn't have to travel far to see that back-to-back houses still exist, although many of the streets are no longer cobbled. However, the people in these streets, they too now live with the evidence of transition all around them. A great number of these houses are now home to Leeds' Muslim population, many of whom, as we know from the events of July 7, remain unconvinced by civic proclamations of racial and ethnic harmony. Three of the four suicide bombers who attacked London were from the greater Leeds area and, although they were second- or more properly third-generation citizens of Leeds, their disaffection with Britain clearly ran deep.

This "new" population occupy houses that may now have indoor plumbing, but the privies are still there in the middle of the block, and at the end of many streets there are rubbish-strewn clearings that suggest demolition began but has now been abandoned. The truth is, for all their cramped poverty, there is a durable history to these red-brick streets that is simply not present in the ephemeral glitter of a Leeds city centre that is trying so hard to reach out and appropriate modernity, as though it is a commodity to be bought on credit at the local supermarket.

Late in the afternoon, I walked down to the river and gazed at the new buildings that complement the recently renovated mills and storerooms. These days, greenery fringes the water where previously only filth and debris triumphed. Here, warehouses have been transformed into designer boutique hotels and apartment blocks for the newly affluent, and right down by the water's edge cafes and restaurants lend a bohemian raffishness to the newly vibrant area. It seemed to me miraculous that the water was no longer polluted and lifeless, and I was actually tempted to linger and marvel at this particular transformation.

Back in the city centre, I looked closely at the anxious faces of the new youngsters readying themselves for a night out. Their faces appeared pinched and slightly weary, and I felt sure that, behind their impish smiles and sugar-sabotaged teeth, these young people knew that soon it would be their turn for unemployment and early parenthood. These "kids" were old souls dressed in bright new clothes, much like the city itself: "modern" kids. As I stared at them, I remembered that when I was a boy, we used to play football against a secondary school with the somewhat hopeful name of Leeds Modern. The joke, of course, was that there was precious little that was modern about Leeds, including that school. This is palpably not the case now.

Leeds was the city that took us in back in 1958. My parents and I were assimilated into cobbled streets, and introduced to dark, gloomy buildings, and situated around the corner from pubs that still operated a colour bar. But whatever the difficulties, this was our new home. Today's newly constructed city centre, with its young, multiracial population, speaks eloquently to a kind of self-belief that the city has probably not known since its mid-19th-century industrial heyday. But, as is the case in many great cities, the true ethos of Leeds is most clearly discernible in the buildings. The rush to modernity in the architecture might suggest confidence to some, but the very flimsiness of this enterprise is clear in the reflected solidity of the buildings that sit all around. I walked through this new Leeds marvelling at change, but I also felt relieved at just how much of the old, including the dark, satanic, soot-blackened 50s, still remained. After all, these are my roots. And those of the city.

..

Leeds No.1

October 24th, 2005, 09:05 PM

wow. Whoever wrote that must have had a really boring day to be bothered to do that...

jimbo

October 24th, 2005, 09:42 PM

Martyn

October 24th, 2005, 10:12 PM

di Livio

October 24th, 2005, 10:17 PM

[QUOTE=Martyn]thanks for that article di livio - did you type it? i couldn't get it on the guardian siteQUOTE]

You can access the article now the link seems to be working.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1597847,00.html

I wasn't aware of the mutilation of the Merrion Centre in my absence - Dead and gone Ritzys transformed into the oddly-titled 'Oceana'.

http://www.oceana.at/media/galleries/55/popups/450.jpg

http://www.oceana.at/pages/content.asp?PageID=393&GID=55

daveylad2

October 24th, 2005, 10:42 PM

thanks for that article di livio - did you type it? i couldn't get it on the guardian site - though as an adopted yorkshireman i feel a bit patronised by it. satanic mills, indeed.

where's that photo of? i'm not aware of any cooling towers in leeds.

It might be Kirkstall Power Station. The cooling towers were demolished in the 1980's.

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/63/2002125_33161563.jpg

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/kvnr/power%20station.jpg

leeds-rich

October 24th, 2005, 10:49 PM

Yep that 1st picture looks like it was taken from Argie Avenue looking down Woodside View. I remember watching them get demolished from the roof of Kirkstall Middle School much better what's there now of course.

Leeds No.1

October 24th, 2005, 10:53 PM

I know in those days there was little appreciation of what was there, but buildign a power station right there is literally mad!

leeds-rich

October 24th, 2005, 10:57 PM

I know in those days there was little appreciation of what was there, but buildign a power station right there is literally mad!

Agree with you there just makes you wonder who was in charge of things like that back then, maybe Fred could shed some light for us?

Martyn

October 24th, 2005, 11:01 PM

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/kvnr/power%20station.jpg
top picture! that might be my next desktop pic.

i think my guardian subscription is buggered though, that article still won't display when i search for it myself. maybe i should just buy the paper.

Leeds No.1

October 24th, 2005, 11:12 PM

It seems to be easier just to buy the paper lol. Except why do they have to be annoyingl large (Well getting smaller now but some pff). Anyway that pic also shows what terrible fashion was around those days- feel sorry for the guy with tight trousers round his bum.
IMO that should go in the UPC, it makes it look like its made of some really thin paper or plastic or something, the way it seems to curve over with little amount of cracks and big bricks like what you get when demolishing a council block...

Leeds No.1

October 24th, 2005, 11:26 PM

Can some Leeds people by the way go to 'why everyone hates/loves Leeds No.1' in the skybar and say what you would expect me to be like if you met me. Which you might one day!

dgnr8

October 24th, 2005, 11:36 PM

Aye, I've been watching that makeover of the Merrion. Reckon they'll be doing the whole thing? I must say, the effort they've made so far looks incredibly cheap. I promise to nab a picture tomorrow for those who haven't seen it. It appears to have just been done up by new owners with little thought for how it relates to the Merrion. Granted, a step away from the Merrion is most certainly a good one. But what's been done so far, anything other than making their bar stand out doesn't even appear to be an afterthought.

Like I say, I promise a pic tomorrow. In the meantime, here's one I took of the plaza development, by Ventura tower.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/faggotbrain/plaza1.jpg

Alexi Lalas

October 24th, 2005, 11:39 PM

Can some Leeds people by the way go to 'why everyone hates/loves Leeds No.1' in the skybar and say what you would expect me to be like if you met me. Which you might one day!

no, that would take effort

Leeds No.1

October 24th, 2005, 11:42 PM

Alexi Lalas

October 24th, 2005, 11:53 PM

lol
Also on the Merrion Centre, I dont think it can get much worse so I'd welcome any improvement. I've just thought, I think it would look really good if they plonked a really tall buildign ontop of it.

or if somebody blew it up. as long as the delightful 13 o'clock survived the blast. i don't think anybody who shops in the morrisons would notice, like that article said. it's like land of the dead that place

Alexi Lalas

October 24th, 2005, 11:56 PM

or maybe 'one flew over the cuckoo's nest' would sum it up better.

aviator

October 25th, 2005, 12:13 PM

Two bits of news, folks.

I reported a while back that the builders were in at Hunslet Mills, site of the proposed of 700 flats and one of the most romantic ruins along the waterside. Sadly, I think I jumped the gun because the scaffolding's gone and there's no sign of activity. I think they might have been making the buildings safe because there are some new temporary roofs in place. Guess we have to keep watching and hoping on this one.

Meanwhile, a couple of miles upstream, there's movement at City Island. There are a couple of diggers at work between the recently-finished flats and the lowrise offices facing the inner ring road. Friends who live there say that work is starting on the next phase of the development, offices and about 270 flats.

Stig282

October 25th, 2005, 01:01 PM

Yep - City Island 2. There's a model in Morgans window (Dock Street). It's all a grey/blue colour

Skopie

October 25th, 2005, 04:41 PM

Grey? Ooooooooooo.

Any pictures?

Stig282

October 25th, 2005, 05:40 PM

Have been looking all day on t'internet but can't find any. sorry.
Short of a snap when walking past, I can't oblige.

Stig282

October 25th, 2005, 05:50 PM

I now have links - where's the City Island thread?

jimbo

October 25th, 2005, 06:12 PM

I now have links - where's the City Island thread?

there isn't one, sadly it got lost in the great thread hacking affair of early summer 2005. City Island stuff has typically gone on the official Leeds thread.

Brewster Bye architects designed City Island phases 2 and 3, but they looked different from the model stig is talking about in Morgan's office window. I think that model is purely an office element, but on the premise that there isn't actually much more land between there and the ring road, perhaps the Brewster Bye website with the dull looking 18 storey apartments have superceded the office element. I frankly have no idea, although Mayfair Developments were responsible for phase 1 and might have updated their website re: phases 2 and 3.

I recollect briefly that pp was given, but announced development not to start until at least a year later, perhaps that year has elapsed.

Stig282

October 25th, 2005, 06:28 PM

new CI thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=273241)

No update from Mayfair on their CI website (http://cityisland.co.uk)

ps60

October 25th, 2005, 09:22 PM

Application 20/491/05/FU
Received on 14/10/2005

Description
multi level development up to 10 storeys comprising 124 student flats with 554 bedrooms & staff car parking
Location
5 BURLEY ROAD LEEDS 2875-3397 LS3 1LJ MAJ
Library

Application 20/488/05/FU
Received on 12/10/2005

Description
part 8 and 9 storey block of 267 flats and 2 a1/a2/a3/b1 units with car parking
Location
20-22 MANOR ROAD LEEDS 2974-3267 LS11 9AH MAJ
Library

The Oil

October 28th, 2005, 03:27 AM

Fred2

October 28th, 2005, 10:43 AM

Interesting that the (now deceased) owner of the Merrion Centre was a big player in the Civic Trust, philanthropy or self interest? Anyone been in the indoor market recently? It's like stepping back in time.

Why the sneering cynicism? I don't really see how being a big player in the CT would serve his self interest dramatically. And even if it did, most people (no doubt including you OIL) do things with a mixture of motives one of which may well be self interest. Philanthropists peresumably get welcome publicity when they donate large sums to this or that cause or charity. Of course they could always give anonymously - but then no one would know about it would they ?

That market never had much going for it - much too far away from the main shopping centre, almost non existent public transport, proximity of Morrison's etc. all against it.

di Livio

October 28th, 2005, 01:58 PM

never had much going for it - much too far away from the main shopping centre, almost non existent public transport, proximity of Morrison's etc. all against it.

Could also be said of the Merrion Centre itself!

Fred2

October 28th, 2005, 03:36 PM

Could also be said of the Merrion Centre itself!

Not quite. It has a very big student footfall - during term time.

The Oil

October 28th, 2005, 05:58 PM

Why the sneering cynicism? I don't really see how being a big player in the CT would serve his self interest dramatically. And even if it did, most people (no doubt including you OIL) do things with a mixture of motives one of which may well be self interest. Philanthropists peresumably get welcome publicity when they donate large sums to this or that cause or charity. Of course they could always give anonymously - but then no one would know about it would they ?

That market never had much going for it - much too far away from the main shopping centre, almost non existent public transport, proximity of Morrison's etc. all against it.

Sneering Cynicism??? You sensitive soul! I was musing out loud that's all. I just find it quite strange that the owner of the most disgusting, vile pile of shit in the City Centre was at the same time presiding over an organisation that is supposed to preserve the character and heritage of Leeds!

The Oil

October 29th, 2005, 01:27 AM

I've been in town tonight :cheers: (hic!). I walked through the Merrion centre - it is as bad as I thought it was....... It has no defence, it's just a sorry, lame dump.

jimbo

October 29th, 2005, 03:22 PM

Speaking of all things Leeds I see that some horrendous company has ploughed £7m into a nightclub in the Merrion Centre. What a disappointment - it looks like the largest blot on Leeds's landscape is here to stay......

Interesting that the (now deceased) owner of the Merrion Centre was a big player in the Civic Trust, philanthropy or self interest? Anyone been in the indoor market recently? It's like stepping back in time.

Indeed its the family that own Town Centre Securities. The excellently named Ziff family. I think it was the company patriarch Arnold (Arnie to his chums) Ziff who shuffled off his mortal coil a little while back. However, his two sons (David and ....???) are running TCS and have their hands full with Harewood/Eastgate and the entire Whitehall Road scheme.

The company is actually based in the Merrion Centre tower which they also own as one of the key assets in their investment portfolio. I'd be surprised if they didn't have longer terms plans for the site, however I'd suspect they are currently concentrating on the two huge schemes mentioned above, plus their development interests in Manchester (inc Piccadilly basin).

As I remember the Ziffs have also been involved in LUFC whether as non-executive directors or patrons I'm not sure, but their name crops up all over the place and I think one of the rooms in the Art Gallery is also sponsored by them.

Have a squizz at the website:
TCS (http://www.tcs-plc.com/)

Stig282

October 29th, 2005, 03:49 PM

Endured a flight back from Pisa-Manchester with these guys and family...I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies! (or even anyone from manchester - j/k!)

Rob

October 29th, 2005, 08:16 PM

I've been in town tonight :cheers: (hic!). I walked through the Merrion centre - it is as bad as I thought it was....... It has no defence, it's just a sorry, lame dump.

I don't know what you're seeing, the Merrion Centre is fine, not the best centre in Leeds but they can't all be the best. It was much worse before the makeover and the new roof was put on, it is fine now. We often go in there to Woolies and sometimes in that superb model shop.

Leeds No.1

October 29th, 2005, 08:30 PM

Oh yeh I sometimes go there... As for woolworths I think its a bit rubbish! To say it's a major store in the city centre... I'm suprised they located so far from Briggate/Central Square to start with, but then the shop is small. A larger, more modern store might be better on Briggate, possibly down the bottom end or maybe in one of the shopping centres... The Headrow Centre seems a bit dead these days

Fred2

October 29th, 2005, 09:41 PM

I don't know what you're seeing, the Merrion Centre is fine, not the best centre in Leeds but they can't all be the best. It was much worse before the makeover and the new roof was put on, it is fine now. We often go in there to Woolies and sometimes in that superb model shop.

Yes, I wonder why there is such a marked prejudice (and possibly jealousy) expressed by some on this thread towards both the Merrion Centre and the family that owns it. It was a pioneering effort in its time and it could be that the CT will mark it down as worthy of being listed. On second thoughts I hope it doesn't - for those very people might then accuse the Ziff family as having an undue influence on the CT if it does !

Leeds No.1

October 29th, 2005, 10:05 PM

I'd rather give it a major renovation than demolish it. Its in quite a good lcoation... Having said that however, I hope no more city centre shopping centres are built in Leeds, but instead I'd rather see extensions of the pedestrian area such as what the Harewood/Eastgate Qtr will do. I think eventually Cookridge Street down to The Headrow and Rossington Street will be pedestrianised as it becomes a stronger entertainment district.

The Oil

October 29th, 2005, 11:37 PM

Yes, I wonder why there is such a marked prejudice (and possibly jealousy) expressed by some on this thread towards both the Merrion Centre and the family that owns it. It was a pioneering effort in its time and it could be that the CT will mark it down as worthy of being listed. On second thoughts I hope it doesn't - for those very people might then accuse the Ziff family as having an undue influence on the CT if it does !

WTF!?!? The Quarry Hill flats were a pioneering effort in their time - did you want to keep them as well?

As for jealousy, what the hell are you on about? Where did that come from? Let me clarify I'm on about The Merrion Centre as a whole. The hotel is HORRIBLE, an embarrassment, have you ever been in? How about the plastic, octagonal bar at the back, the horrible offices, the terrible nightclubs etc etc etc. IMO it stands for everything that is wrong with cities today.

BTW Fred2, I've read your posts about West Point (ex Royal Mail) and noted your chastising of people who are prepared to settle for second best - not too sure how you can justify your stance on the MC.

However, in the spirit of democracy, and as an (seemingly needed) olive branch, instead of me slagging the shit out of The Merrion Centre please feel free to tell me what you like about it, tell me where you shop in there and tell me why you wouldn't want to see it demolished....

This should be good.

Fred2

October 30th, 2005, 12:11 AM

Of course the Merrion Centre is not first class but, there are plenty of other places in Leeds that have, in my opinion, priority in the demolition stakes and I have already mentioned some in my comments in these threads. Here's a snide suggestive sort of remark made by you: "I just find it quite strange that the owner of the most disgusting, vile pile of shit in the City Centre was at the same time presiding over an organisation that is supposed to preserve the character and heritage of Leeds!" followed by an uncalled for personal attack on the family (with whom I have no connection) by STIG : "Endured a flight back from Pisa-Manchester with these guys and family...I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies! (or even anyone from manchester - j/k!)" How is any objective person supposed to react to those kind of comments ?

aviator

October 30th, 2005, 12:39 AM

I don't know a lot about the Ziff family but I agree with Fred that it's unseemly to slag people off in the way that's been happening here. I think the Merrion Centre is pretty nasty but so what? It was an early attempt at producing a mixed use development, about 20 years ahead of others. Bear in mind it was built at a time when the city planners were trying to banish pedestrians to the first storey level of buildings, which were mean to be connected by elevated walkways (di Livio, can you help out with pics of where these walkways were built?

That being said, I think it's preferable to the offensive shite we have at City Walk (at least in the flats) or the Wellington Street Holiday Inn. And, at least the Merrion Centre has a fairly healthy occupancy rate, unlike the horrid Headrow Centre.

Leeds No.1

October 30th, 2005, 12:42 AM

We don't have to swear people! :)
On the note of the Merrion Centre, a major renovation would be good, similar to the Arndale maybe. I do think some development of it is inevitable as the rest of the cty centre progresses.

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 12:54 AM

Of course the Merrion Centre is not first class but, there are plenty of other places in Leeds that have, in my opinion, priority in the demolition stakes.

Such as? Seriously, are there plenty of places worse than the MC? Tell me more. I can think of three, by the way.

Here's a snide suggestive sort of remark made by you: "I just find it quite strange that the owner of the most disgusting, vile pile of shit in the City Centre was at the same time presiding over an organisation that is supposed to preserve the character and heritage of Leeds!"

What's snide about that that? Don't you see how I might view it as strange?

Do you use the Merrion Centre? Also, how would you feel if you knew that the MC will be around until at least the year 2027?

Alexi Lalas

October 30th, 2005, 12:56 AM

I'm on about The Merrion Centre as a whole. The hotel is HORRIBLE, an embarrassment, have you ever been in? How about the plastic, octagonal bar at the back, the horrible offices, the terrible nightclubs etc etc etc. IMO it stands for everything that is wrong with cities today.

woh woh woh! let's not go abusing 'the bassment' despite it not being the most attractive of places, where else can you get double gins for £1.50 a pop and Absinthe for £3. blooming marvelous

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 01:00 AM

I do think some development of it is inevitable as the rest of the city centre progresses.

Oh - LN1, why do you think it's inevitable? It is anything but inevitable. I do really admire your blind optimism but sometimes........

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 01:01 AM

woh woh woh! let's not go abusing 'the bassment' despite it not being the most attractive of places, where else can you get double gins for £1.50 a pop and Absinthe for £3. blooming marvelous

Sorry...................... :)

Fred2

October 30th, 2005, 01:14 AM

What's snide about that that? Don't you see how I might view it as strange?

Why is it strange ? Judging by the praise heaped on the late Arnold Ziff and his family for all their good deeds and philanthropy, I think you should go easy in criticising too much just because they are responsible for the Merrion Centre which you seem to loathe to the point of obssession !

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 01:23 AM

Why is it strange ? Judging by the praise heaped on the late Arnold Ziff and his family for all their good deeds and philanthropy, I think you should go easy in criticising too much just because they are responsible for the Merrion Centre which you seem to loathe to the point of obssession !

Or which you seem to love to the point of obsession. Are you going to tell me what you like about it? Or if you shop there? Also, where are the "plenty of other places"?

I still don't think I was that critical.

Fred2

October 30th, 2005, 01:31 AM

I still don't think I was that critical.

I got a contrary impression !

Leeds No.1

October 30th, 2005, 01:37 AM

Alexi Lalas

October 30th, 2005, 01:37 AM

Fight! Fight! Fight!

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 01:53 AM

I got a contrary impression !

Are you going to answer any of my questions? Or - sharp intake of breath - might I have a point?

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 01:56 AM

Its inevitable because eventually the whole city centre will be improved so it practically will be forced to. That doesnt really refer to within the next 10yrs sorta thing btw. Also Im not really an optomist or a pessimist, Im a bit of both depending on the subject...

I'm not too sure what year the MC was built - but there's been very little done to it since it opened apart from an internal refurb about 7 years ago. And a crap refurb at that!! Are you happy knowing that it won't change in apearance for the next 20 years??

Im not really an optomist or a pessimist, Im a bit of both depending on the subject...

I have no idea what this means. You've lost me.

Alexi Lalas

October 30th, 2005, 02:01 AM

i have no idea what this argument is about anymore. i kind of asleep just after it started but i'm with you Oil.

Go Oil!

Alexi Lalas

October 30th, 2005, 02:03 AM

don't let that nasty Oil get to you Fred.

Go Fred!

daveylad2

October 30th, 2005, 02:13 AM

Are you going to answer any of my questions? Or - sharp intake of breath - might I have a point?

Apart from you saying the Merrion is sh*t what is your point? What do you propose to do? Do you have money to develop the site? Are you saying a dead man has a lot to answer for? Are you asking whether or not Fred shops there?
If he says he does will that make you feel better?

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 02:21 AM

Apart from you saying the Merrion is sh*t what is your point? What do you propose to do? Do you have money to develop the site? Are you saying a dead man has a lot to answer for? Are you asking weather or not Fred shops there?
If he says he does will that make you feel better?

It won't make me feel better - Jeez, I'm not that sad!! It's dead simple, I just think the MC is a blot on the landscape of Leeds. When people, who's opinion I respect, come out in support of it I'm genuinely astonished! Hence the questions about whether people who defend it actually use it. And, daveylad2, I doubt they do.

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 02:27 AM

Do you have money to develop the site? Are you saying a dead man has a lot to answer for? Are you asking whether or not Fred shops there?
If he says he does will that make you feel better?

In turn.

Do you have money to develop the site? No - what a stupid question.

Are you saying a dead man has a lot to answer for? I'm not sure but it's not a legacy I'd be happy with.

Are you asking whether or not Fred shops there? Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking.

If he says he does will that make you feel better? No.

Anything else?

Fred2

October 30th, 2005, 08:24 AM

don't let that nasty Oil get to you Fred.

Go Fred!

I won't Alexi. He really is obssessive about the MC (which btw was built in the 1960's) For his information, I do shop there - not much, but certainly as much as the other Leeds shopping centres. I would just like to know if he has a hidden agenda in attacking the Zifff family in the terms he has (together with Styg). Are either disgruntled ex employees ? As far as the Civic Trust (of which I am a member) is concerned, Arnold Ziff was a patron. Unlike OIL, no members of CT thought it strange that he should be in that position, or that it was in any way a conflict of interests, or at all hypocritical on his part. Just Google his name and find out how highly he was thought of by people in all sectors of life in Leeds and beyond.

Rob

October 30th, 2005, 10:48 AM

It won't make me feel better - Jeez, I'm not that sad!! It's dead simple, I just think the MC is a blot on the landscape of Leeds. When people, who's opinion I respect, come out in support of it I'm genuinely astonished! Hence the questions about whether people who defend it actually use it. And, daveylad2, I doubt they do.

I would probably be accurate in saying I use the Merrion Centre more than any other shopping centre in Leeds, and I certainly think it is ok (I suppose I'm not a great fashion shopper). It's not pretty, but I have seen much worse in other towns and cities around the UK.

Leeds No.1

October 30th, 2005, 11:13 AM

Yes I've seen worse too. I don't often go in the Merrion though, only if theres somin in Woolworths I want... I was in Leeds on Thursday and only went in St. Johns and The Light- I don't think shopping centres have the same attraction they used to, unless it is a really good one. I sometimes go in the shopping plaza for H&M though, but then again I sometimes go to Briggate instead. The shopping centres are badly laid out and in need of renovation, with the exception of The Light and St. John's Centre.
I wonder why shops aren't moving into places like The Headrow and Leeds Shopping Plaza...

Skopie

October 30th, 2005, 12:26 PM

Because walking through places like Leeds shopping plaza is soul destroying.

di Livio

October 30th, 2005, 12:31 PM

Look, for a building of its time the Merrion Centre isn't bad. It was the original mixed-use development (where else would you find a bowling alley, a cinema, a superdrug, a nightclub, and of course a model shop in the same space). After living in Cov it seems clean and stylish to my eyes, hard as it is to believe!

If Merrion House and Morrisons were demolished and the whole complex restored to the design of the Wade House lobby or the interior of the Rank cinema (that's Rank, the Yorkshire-owned film company btw) it could look like the shopping centre at the beginning of the David Cronenbourg film Scanners. How cool would that be?

It might be wise to see it demolished some day, yet I find the tarnished red-brick bulk of the St. John Centre much more offensive; I'd prefer to see that go first.

(Can't find any images of the old walkways although they do exist somewhere)

Not the worst street scene in the UK.
http://freespace.virgin.net/andy.preece/publictransport/busfacilities/tn_leeds1.jpg

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/69/10269.jpg

Fred2

October 30th, 2005, 12:49 PM

yet I find the tarnished red-brick bulk of the St. John Centre much more offensive; I'd prefer to see that go first.

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/69/10269.jpg

Agree.
Will be away in the Lake District for a few days . Ready to enter the fray then (if necessary). :)

The Oil

October 30th, 2005, 01:12 PM

Agree.
Will be away in the Lake District for a few days . Ready to enter the fray then (if necessary). :)

Probably not necessary! In summary, you think the MC is ok, I think it's awful. I have had no dealings with the Ziff family, I have no problem with them and am happy to acknowledge their contribution to The City Of Leeds. I DO think there's a certain irony to Mr Ziff being a big player in the Civic Trust but it looks like I'm alone on that one.

I'm off into town now, I think I'll go and drink in the delighful shopping experience that is the MC. No doubt after pawning one of my sovereign rings and cashing a dodgy cheque I'll head into the Jug And Bottle for a pint. It will come as no surprise when, within five minutes, I'm offered drugs, clothes or sex for a small price before having my head stoved in for refusing such temptations!!! Oh the joy!!!! :)

Fred2

October 30th, 2005, 01:28 PM

I DO think there's a certain irony to Mr Ziff being a big player in the Civic Trust but it looks like I'm alone on that one.

He wasn't such a big player in the CT, but I'm sure they were pleased to have him. Ask Kevin Grady at the CT. Off now !

ps60

October 30th, 2005, 01:38 PM

I would say the Merrion Centre needs a reclad on the outside, like a continuation of the external view of Oceana, as it certainly is no beauty to look at, but on the inside its not too bad.

ps60

October 30th, 2005, 07:23 PM

jimbo

October 30th, 2005, 07:52 PM

City Council planners have called for more talks on the £20m plan to renovate Temple Mill into a "cultural retail" quarter. The proposed £180m project by SJS Property Management, which could create 3,000 jobs, also includes demolishing the former Reality and Shop Direct buildings and replace them with 934 flats in 13 blocks, offices and a community centre. Centrepiece of the scheme would be a 36-storey tower in the north-west corner.

Does this mean the Marshall Street Tower is going to be 36 storeys?

we've always been led to believe 26 is the mooted number of storeys. I personally don't have much faith with the author of the Economy Bulletin and can cite plenty of typos and inaccuracies in previous editions. I think the 36 should read 26 and is simply down to shoddy journalism. Either way, it will be a tall tower and further impetus to HUV.

ps60

October 30th, 2005, 07:59 PM

we've always been led to believe 26 is the mooted number of storeys. I personally don't have much faith with the author of the Economy Bulletin and can site plenty of typos and inaccuracies in previous editions. I think the 36 should read 26 and is simply down to shoddy journalism. Either way, it will be a tall tower and further impetus to HUV.
We shall find out whether its a typo or a genuine height increase in due course.

It would be nice if it turns out to be 36 storeys though. :yes:

Smoggie_Si

November 1st, 2005, 10:22 PM

Did anyone else read Caryl Phillips' (ex-Whinmoor) scathing and generally inaccurate article about Leeds in the Saturday Guardian? It's very disappointing given that this guy is one of our higher achieving public figures.

Sorry for sticking my pennorth in so late, but I read the Caryl Phillips article last weekend and can't really see why it is scathing and inaccurate. The way that I read it was as an article about the juxtaposition of poverty and wealth in the city and in general how Leeds has developed from the grimness of the 50s and 60s. I remember how grim the city was in the late 80s, so can imagine it wasn't great prior to that!

He makes an interesting point about the character of the brick back to backs, which I can't disagree with. Wouldn't fancy living in one myself, but there's more character in one of those houses than in the whole of the Whitehall Quay development.

The Doug Saunders article was scathing and inaccurate, this is not. We may all prefer an article about the huge amount of development that is going on and to see Leeds portrayed in glowing terms, but the fact is that there are swathes of the community who are untouched by Leeds rapid move upmarket and continue to live in poverty. The article was about Leeds, it could equally be about most, if not all, big cities in the UK. Let's not start getting oversensitive!

Leeds No.1

November 1st, 2005, 10:52 PM

But tbh, Leeds is quite a rich city as far as cities of its size go, and all the poorer areas have masterplans. There are aspects that would improve some areas notably. Holbeck obviously is getting it. If there was a large(ish) park built on brownfield sites in these poorer areas, the quality would go up loads, and hopefully people would gain value on their houses as they were bough when it was cheaper. I'm not sure what to say about Harehills though...

jimbo

November 2nd, 2005, 12:13 AM

He makes an interesting point about the character of the brick back to backs, which I can't disagree with. Wouldn't fancy living in one myself, but there's more character in one of those houses than in the whole of the Whitehall Quay development.

I agree - couple of mates own back to backs just down from Headingley - down St Michael's Lane behind the rugby ground - in the Beechwoods and these back to backs are great, obviously very slim and with a shed load of stairs, but relatively affordable, in a good location with Kirkstall and Headingley 10 mins walk in opposite directions etc. Am sure the Harehills versions, due to upkeep and location, are certainly less salubrious and desirable than the Headingley/Burley versions, but as housing stock, they must make up a significant percentage of Leeds' total. That'd be a question for a geographer!

Good to see you got a Whitehall Quay comment in there Smoggie - surprised you've not had a chunter about West Point/Central which is looking like the shoddy red edifice a lot of people thought it might!

MikeinLeeds

November 2nd, 2005, 09:51 AM

we've always been led to believe 26 is the mooted number of storeys. I personally don't have much faith with the author of the Economy Bulletin and can cite plenty of typos and inaccuracies in previous editions. I think the 36 should read 26 and is simply down to shoddy journalism. Either way, it will be a tall tower and further impetus to HUV.

Jimbo

I think it is shoddy work by the author of the bulletin. The bumph from the developer clearly talks about 26 storeys.

SmartCity

November 2nd, 2005, 11:52 AM

Jimbo

I think it is shoddy work by the author of the bulletin. The bumph from the developer clearly talks about 26 storeys.

It'll just be a typing error. I am sure the typist couldn't care less whether or not it is going to be a 26 or 36 storey building, and therefore they wouldn't have picked up on it when checking the article for spelling mistakes.

Leeds No.1

November 2nd, 2005, 06:52 PM

www.citysquarehouse.co.uk has some virtual tour things of the building as well as some renderings, some new, some old. (Probably not so new, seeing as its not exactly the site I visit every day).

kids

November 3rd, 2005, 01:27 AM

Don't know if you guys have seen this

http://www.makearchitects.co.uk/

click on projects then on 'Spiracle' - nice cyclindrical 25 floor tower

there's also some nice renders of kite tower.

Skopie

November 3rd, 2005, 01:36 AM

That spiracle sure is pretty. Does it have a developer/site? Or is it just another vision?

jimbo

November 3rd, 2005, 01:53 AM

Don't know if you guys have seen this

http://www.makearchitects.co.uk/

click on projects then on 'Spiracle' - nice cyclindrical 25 floor tower

there's also some nice renders of kite tower.

cheers for that KITR. Very interesting development. Carey Jones are mentioned, as is a gateway site. Its obviously a riverside site with a bridge crossing it, but quite where? I'd take a hunch and say perhaps this was one of the competition entries for the Green Bank site, although there is no bend on the river. Carey Jones were one of the 5 finalists along with Marks Barfield, ISA and Stephenson Bell. Perhaps Make were helping out....... as they have done with the Kite Tower which again was launched as a joint project between Make and CJ.

I'll be honest and say I have no idea where it could be, but lack of any other news suggests that perhaps its a vision. Perhaps a riverside site down along East Street heading out past 'The Gateway' and Clarence Dock. the only other vacant site on the river would be Monksbridge Works or the old Arla Dairy site behind the Travelodge and TGI Fridays.

Curious!

Leeds No.1

November 3rd, 2005, 02:13 AM

I think it is just a vision too. I have changed views on the Kite Tower though and think it would be quite a nice addition to Leeds, hope eventually it gets built somewhere...

di Livio

November 3rd, 2005, 02:36 PM

Let's not start getting oversensitive!

Well, I stand by my assessment of the article, even if it no longer makes my blood boil. Amusingly, my response was printed in the letters page of last Saturday's Guardian, so we'll see if there's any comeback from Mr. Phillips, I writer i respect and admire.

I would be reluctant to praise the 'character' of Leeds' back-to-backs. They're not equipped to serve modern residents, and it could be argued the design contributes to social problems (densely-packed, not enough space, etc) and, let's be honest, they do very little for the quality of Leeds' housing stock overall.

di Livio

November 3rd, 2005, 02:43 PM

Stig282

November 3rd, 2005, 03:38 PM

jimbo

November 4th, 2005, 10:10 AM

Don't have Property Week readship access, but the news today has this as a snippet:

Dutch plan £150m Leeds leviathan Property Week
04.11.2005
UK arm HBG Properties cashes in on northern renaissance with 500,000 sq ft offices scheme

Any idea what or where this could be. As a large office element I'd suspect Whitehall Road, or Wellington Place. HBG are building Whitehall road phase 1 and I don't think they are actual 'developers' themselves, preferring to aim for build contracts. I think?!? Put me right team.

mike68

November 4th, 2005, 05:17 PM

re: Kite Tower

The council should grasp the nettle and get these designs built. I was looking at the International Pool site recently, thinking what a wasted opportunity it was to select another Barratt scheme. Leeds' needs to push quality urban design if it's ambitions are to be taken seriously.

Don't give us bland designs
As civic leaders call for more innovative architecture, we want your views on the best and worst buildings in Leeds
Anything goes won't go any more, vows councillor on an architectural mission
By DAVID MARSH
ARCHITECTS and developers were today urged to produce the highest quality designs for housing schemes amid a building boom which promises to change the face of Leeds.
Council bosses are spearheading a drive to improve quality and innovation in housing design.
And Coun Andrew Carter, the council's deputy leader who has responsibility for development, is pressing architects, developers and planners to produce better schemes.
He said the idea that "anything goes won't go any more."
The council is next week holding a seminar at which builders, architects, academics, conservationists and council representatives will discuss ways of raising design standards across the city.
Over the past ten years, thousands of new apartments have been built but there are concerns that opportunities to produce distinctive designs are being lost.
Peter Baker, of Leeds Civic Trust's planning committee, will be attending the seminar. He said: "There's been a tendency for many housing schemes to be a bit formulaic.
"Developers stick to a general pattern and everything comes out looking a bit the same. As a result you do not get the sort of distinctiveness that can help give a place a real identity.
"We need to look at, where appropriate, how we can break the mould.
"There should also be a sense of community. Too often apartment blocks are places where people occupy their own space and are isolated from their neighbours."
Coun Carter said: "This is about making sure that new developments in Leeds have the best traditional and historical architecture and the best modern design as well.
"We will be working with developers to ensure that plans for new housing developments, particularly flats, are of an excellent quality and standard.
"We will encourage members of plans panels who scrutinise and pass plans for new developments, to be robust in expecting developers to come up with good designs that suit their environment. 'Anything goes' won't go any more. For example, many new developments do not include parking provision which can cause untold problems for residents both in the building and those leaving nearby.
"We need to ensure that designs for new houses take account of issues such as these."
david.marsh@ypn.co.uk

Skopie

November 4th, 2005, 06:45 PM

From building design magazine...

White rose bloom.

Leeds is rising again, a shining example of design-led regeneration. Ken Powell takes a tour of the Yorkshire capital with the man spearheading its renaissance

sNearly half a century ago, Nikolaus Pevsner found the centre of Leeds blessed with “civic pride and a certain orderliness”, the results of “enlightened planning”. Pevsner didn’t stray far from the city centre, it seems, into the areas of dense back-to-back housing and Victorian industry that then surrounded it on all sides. Within a decade of his visit, these areas were being flattened to make way for the M1, the inner ring road and the ongoing slum clearance programme, severing the city centre from the inner suburbs. The central area itself was extensively redeveloped with office and retail schemes that are now widely despised and thankfully beginning to bite the dust.

John Thorp, Leeds’ civic architect since 1996, sees his role, in tandem with the city’s planners, as “healing and repairing, restitching and reconnecting” what the comprehensive redevelopment policies of the recent past tore asunder. It’s a familiar story: Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield, Newcastle and most other large British cities are engaged in similar campaigns of urban repair.

It helps that the centre of Leeds retains much of its historic fabric — its famous covered arcades, the Kirkgate Market and substantial remnants of the Georgian West End, for example. Thirty years ago, the city was something of a pioneer when it came to pedestrianisation. It is now the unchallenged capital of Yorkshire, a major retail centre with a buoyant office market and two large universities.

Yet, until very recently at least, as Thorp concedes, the local architectural scene was somewhat lacklustre — when did a new building in Leeds last feature in the RIBA awards? The enthusiasm, back in the eighties, of the local planners for brick-clad PoMo facades — the so-called “Leeds look” — didn’t help. Nor, to be frank, did the overwhelming domination of the Leeds scene by local practices, though one in particular, Carey Jones, has done much to rebrand the city. Its sleek, all-glass Prince’s Exchange, completed in 2001, is one of the first things you see on emerging from Leeds City station.

Carey Jones in Leeds is what Foster & Partners is in London: everywhere. However, the local practices are facing increasing competition from beyond the city — a fact some, at least, acknowledge as a healthy development. Allford Hall Monaghan Morris recently completed a housing scheme next to Cuthbert Brodrick’s extraordinary Corn Exchange (converted into a specialist shopping centre by Alsop & Lyall in the late eighties) and Cartwright Pickard designed another neatly detailed residential project — Fearn Island Mill at Fearns Wharf on the riverside.

A new civic theatre, due to open before the end of the year, forms part of a mix of refurb and new-build by Panter Hudspith close to the Civic Hall. The new-build element mixes brick and Portland stone, in deference to its historic neighbours. A hotel close to the station is being designed by Allies & Morrison, with nearby housing by CZWG. Sheppard Robson has several large projects in hand in the city. And Ken Shuttleworth’s Make is working on an office tower (with Carey Jones) on the site of the 1960s International Pool.

Ian Simpson’s “Kissing Towers” on the Criterion Place site are set to transform the skyline, oversailing Aedas’s Bridgewater Place tower, which is already under construction. Meanwhile, BDP is refurbishing the magnificent Victorian Grand Theatre and Austin-Smith Lord is converting Brodrick’s Leeds Institute into a new home for the City Museum.

The Miesian residential and studio block by Leeds-based Allen Tod for the city’s music college is a welcome addition to the Quarry Hill area, sadly blighted by Quarry House, the atrocious Department of Health headquarters that marks one of the dimmer moments in the history of BDP. The Barcelona studio of EMBT is working on a new retail scheme off Briggate (the main shopping street) to replace a depressing 1960s development.

The private sector seems to recognise that good architecture pays dividends, but now Leeds itself seems increasingly aware that a city is made as much by the spaces between buildings as by the buildings themselves. The final phase of paving Briggate is under way, with funding from regional development agency Yorkshire Forward, which works with the local authority and other agencies via the Leeds Initiative partnership.

The masterplan for Quarry Hill (the site of the famous 1930s housing scheme, demolished 20 years ago) by Terry Farrell, who is also working on the major Harewood Quarter retail scheme close to Quarry Hill, with a new John Lewis store as an anchor, seemed to have been quietly binned, but has now had another airing as renewed development in the area finally gets going. American practice Koetter Kim, brought in by Yorkshire Forward to work on regeneration masterplans across the region, is designing at least one major new public space.

Thorp believes that there is scope for extending the “covered Leeds” of the Victorian arcades and market, though his idea of roofing over Briggate remains, for the moment, a pipe dream.

In his office down the street from the Civic Hall, Thorp produces maps that highlight proposed or potential developments, many of which feature new public spaces. It’s an impressive picture of a dynamic regional economy, with “architectural quality going up lots of notches”, Thorp claims. He sees himself as a “bridge link” between Leeds City Council and the development industry.

“The new city masterplan is flexible enough to allow for horse-trading between the city and developers”

The council, he says, is seeking to lead by its own good example. In the case of the International Pool site, owned by the local authority, it is foregoing an element of profit to secure substantial improvements to the public realm — a new bridge link across the adjacent inner ring road, for example.

The new city masterplan is flexible enough to allow for horse-trading between the city and developers, but the bottom line is a political consensus backing the “Renaissance Leeds” vision. Liz Minkin, a Labour councillor and honorary fellow of the RIBA with a fine record of backing good design, has been given a prominent role by the new Tory/Lib Dem ruling coalition.

The big shift in John Thorp’s own career came, after a long stint as an architect with the local authority, with the advent of the National Lottery. Although Leeds lacks a Sage, a Lowry or (for this it must be grateful) a National Pop Museum, it has done reasonably well out of the lottery, with major grants for the City Museum and Grand Theatre projects. Rather than build a new concert hall — until that kind of funding becomes available, a conference centre is a higher priority — Brodrick’s Town Hall has been upgraded to become a concert venue.

The city’s perceived prosperity (it includes large areas of affluent suburbia and small towns such as Wetherby and Boston Spa) means that it misses out on the public largesse lavished on, say, Salford or Liverpool. The major local millennium project was not a building, but a public space, Millennium Square, in front of the Civic Hall, which Thorp designed to replace an awkward layout of streets and formal gardens blasted open when the Victorian public baths on Cookridge Street were demolished in the sixties. The square has now become a heavily used amenity, but its potential was only fully realised with the completion of the Carriageworks development on the south side, incorporating the new civic theatre as well as bars, restaurants and teaching accommodation for Leeds Metropolitan University.

Following the completion of Millennium Square, Thorp got the go-ahead to remodel City Square, which had effectively been turned into a large traffic island in the sixties, when its elaborate 1900s architectural setting, showcasing a fine display of statuary, was destroyed. Thorp found much of the original marble balustrading dumped in a local salvage yard, being sold off as the bases for bird baths. “I had to get approval from members to take a briefcase of banknotes and buy 39 bird baths”, he recalls.

New seating, lighting, fountains and paving have transformed the space, with the former head post office (which narrowly escaped demolition in the sixties) being converted into shops, a restaurant and apartments overlooking the square and with the road that separated the two now removed.

“City living” is, of course, booming in Leeds, although with mixed results, as elsewhere, in terms of architectural quality. A development by Manchester practice Stephenson Bell was disowned by the architect after damaging design changes were made by the developer. AHMM’s recent project has also suffered from poor detailing and needless additions — an intrusive rooftop cleaning gantry, for example, on a building where a cherry picker could be used.

With obvious sites along the riverside now developed, residential development is moving into areas on the fringes of the city centre. Urban Splash is revamping part of the local authority’s Saxton Gardens estate, east of Quarry Hill. The area south of the river Aire is now officially part of the city centre, and there are plans to reconnect the distinctly run-down housing areas beyond back to the city as part of a campaign of regeneration. Holbeck, the birthplace of the industrial revolution in Leeds, is set for renewal as an urban village, with BDP’s Round Foundry project, a mix of conservation and new design, a marker for future strategy.

Allen Tod and Leeds practice Bauman Lyons are working on public-realm projects in the area, although the biggest issue in Holbeck is the future of Temple Mills, the grade I listed, world-famous neo-Egyptian factory complex used until recently as a mail-order warehouse but now empty. Across the city, Sir George Gilbert Scott’s 1860s General Infirmary, also grade I listed, faces closure and disposal by the NHS within the next few years — imaginatively converted, it would make a wonderful city centre campus for Leeds University.

The British Council’s recent announcement that London would not feature in its pavilion (which focuses on urban renaissance) at next year’s Venice Biennale but that the focus would be on provincial cities caused a furore in metropolitan circles. Yet Leeds seems to offer an excellent case study of the potential of working with history, engaging the public and private sector in phased renewal and redefinition of the city centre, and restating the role of civic design as the proper concern of the architect.

There is a long way to go yet, but Leeds seems to be committed to quality and prepared to make architects and their clients deliver the same.

di Livio

November 4th, 2005, 09:11 PM

Great finds, guys. Two interesting articles.

Across the city, Sir George Gilbert Scott’s 1860s General Infirmary, also grade I listed, faces closure and disposal by the NHS within the next few years — imaginatively converted, it would make a wonderful city centre campus for Leeds University.

I'd been hoping this would happen eventually, the infirmary is looking a bit forlorn. Wouldn't have come up with as good an idea as that though. It remains one of the best buildings in Leeds, and is all we have to remind us of the magnificent Beckett's Bank on Park Row. It should have a grade-I use.

I never realised it had as much city centre space as is revealed in the photo below either.

http://www.hmds.org.uk/images/lgi.jpg

Stig282

November 5th, 2005, 12:38 AM

I like the bottom end of the LGI, with its deco curved balconies.
That would make a 'pretty' conversion.

The Oil

November 5th, 2005, 02:12 AM

It remains one of the best buildings in Leeds, and is all we have to remind us of the magnificent Beckett's Bank on Park Row. It should have a grade-I use.

http://www.hmds.org.uk/images/lgi.jpg

Hey di Livio,
What are you talking about when you refer to the Becketts Bank? Did it used to be connected to the Infirmary?

Smoggie_Si

November 5th, 2005, 12:22 PM

Hey di Livio,
What are you talking about when you refer to the Becketts Bank? Did it used to be connected to the Infirmary?

It's the Weatherspoons pub on Park Row, full of Leeds' finest getting their £1 pints and £2 burgers. As Di Livio says a rather unfortunate use for a superb building.

di Livio

November 5th, 2005, 02:40 PM

Another bank on Park Row was referred to (confusingly) as 'Beckett's Bank', later the Westminster Bank. It was designed by one of the George Gilbert Scotts (the architect behind the infirmary and St. Pancras), and was demolished in the early 60s for the current Natwest buiding, a move which led to the creation of the civic trust.

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/75/2004122_67991275.jpg

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/94/200434_14596194.jpg

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/48/9548.jpg

di Livio

November 5th, 2005, 02:43 PM

More likely, Leeds Metropolitan University would want to look at the Infirmary as a potential central campus. They've already done well to get Beckett Park in Headingley, and are planning to expand in the near future.

jimbo

November 5th, 2005, 03:51 PM

Indeed, the Building Design article posted by Skopie was excellently written - they'd obviously talked to all the right people and got their facts right.

A couple of things got my attention

- a hotel by Allies and Morrison near the station. Could this be the phantom Victoria Lane project that has been mentioned a few times before? Perhaps the Hindle Valves sites?

- the NHS looking to move out of the infirmary - strange after spending all that money on the new A&E and other various elements. this is what the Leeds Civic Trust had to say on a proposition raised about 4 years back and withdrawn in August 2001:

9 storey Trauma Unit, residential block, hotel, shopping, office and residential development to Calverley Street (including demolition of Brotherton Wing)
multistorey car park to Clarendon Road
http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9077/brotherton7ch.jpg

Objection to demolition of Brotherton and Edward VII Wings, proposed uses of Scott and Corson Buildings and design of new Trauma Centre.

Smoggie_Si

November 5th, 2005, 03:54 PM

Another bank on Park Row was referred to (confusingly) as 'Beckett's Bank', later the Westminster Bank. It was designed by one of the George Gilbert Scotts (the architect behind the infirmary and St. Pancras), and was demolished in the early 60s for the current Natwest buiding, a move which led to the creation of the civic trust.

Unfortunate to lose what was probably a very fine building, but I do like the Natwest building very much.

Smoggie_Si

November 5th, 2005, 04:04 PM

I like the bottom end of the LGI, with its deco curved balconies.
That would make a 'pretty' conversion.

Likewise. It's a beauty and I would imagine it would be massively in demand for conversion into flats, great location and has real character.

Skopie

November 5th, 2005, 05:30 PM

It already looks like a Parisian residential block.

aviator

November 5th, 2005, 08:24 PM

On the matter of the Infirmary, everything seems to have gone quiet since the Hospital Trust withdrew its ridiculous proposal for the demolition of the Brotherton Wing. The Civic Trust made the same point as some of you, that it was a very good example of Art Deco, a style quite uncommon in this country, and would convert easily into flats.

Call me a sentimentalist, though, but I would be sorry to see the original Scott buildings disposed of by the hospital. The Infirmary was one of the first to be built according to the principles set out by Florence Nightingale.

di Livio

November 6th, 2005, 02:51 PM

Found a picture of the Bond Court walkway.

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/45/2003102_55613345.jpg

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/81/2002126_73080081.jpg

A few interesting additions to the Leodis site, which you now view in thumbnail image format.

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/30/200434_56107730.jpg

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/86/200265_48263186.jpg

Blomfield/Atkinson plan for Park lane (Westgate?)
http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/70/2002830_45196170.jpg

aviator

November 6th, 2005, 04:25 PM

My word, di Livio, you're a master at ferreting out these pieces of information! I had no idea the Blomfield masterplan extended as far as Park Lane and I'm not quite sure what I think of the whole idea of a street of uniform buildings from Westgate down to Eastgate. It puts me in mind of the kind of things the Fascists did in Rome when the medieval Borgo was demolished to allow the building of the Via della Conciliazione towards St Peter's.

mike68

November 7th, 2005, 05:26 PM

Lack of facilities for city centre residents highlighted in new report
From YEP
FACILITIES for people living in the centre of Leeds have failed to keep up with the pace of development, a new report warned today.
A lack of quality green open spaces and convenience food shops are highlighted in the independent report by Leeds University's Dr Rachael Unsworth.
The City Living in Leeds 2005 report concludes that although many residents appreciate the city centre lifestyle, and being within walking distance of work, there are frustrations over the size of their accommodation and the local surroundings.
The report suggests this may limit the amount of time households will actually reside in the city centre.
The report was commissioned by Leeds-based city developer KW Linfoot to investigate modern living trends and to help shape future development plans.
To date, around 3,500 flats have been completed in Leeds city centre and another 3,000 are under construction.
A further 11,000 are proposed, though more than 7,000 of these have yet to be granted planning consent.
Dr Unsworth, from the university's School of Geography, said: "Without a change in thinking there is likely to be a serious over-supply of small apartments; a lack of choice for older, larger households and a high turnover of residents as they are faced with little option but to move on from the city centre as their needs mature."
The report suggests that a wider variety of property types should be built – moving away from the trend of two-bedroom apartments that fit the needs of investors and young professionals.
It concludes that if there is to be a more settled and balanced population in the city centre, there should also be properties that will appeal to families and more senior households.
Dr Unsworth continued: "The report outlines clear priorities for developers and Leeds City Council.
"There are many developments that have not been finalised and it is hoped this evidence will encourage the reassessment of the mix of units to be offered so that there is consideration for widening the market and sustaining demand in the longer term."
KW Linfoot managing director, Kevin Linfoot, said: "To sustain the development growth rates in Leeds we have to listen to city residents and understand their frustrations.
"We have already taken on board the findings of this report and plan to include doctor's surgeries, storage and recycling facilities as well as properties targeted directly at the over 55s in our new West Central development."
Dr Unsworth's findings were based on questionnaires hand delivered to apartments in Leeds city centre. A total of 500 households (789 residents) returned questionnaires.
A spokesman for Leeds City Centre Management – a public-private sector partnership whose purpose is to improve, promote and sustain the city centre – said the research would prove "invaluable" in helping the organisation to think about the actions needed over the next five years.
The spokesman added: "Findings from the survey are being used in drafting the new strategic plan for 2005-2011."
Free copies of the report are available by calling KW Linfoot on 0113 391 6300 or by visiting www.geog.leeds.ac.uk/publications/cityliving
nigel.scott@ypn.co.uk

Fred2

November 7th, 2005, 06:49 PM

Why do we have to have these reports (which must cost thousands of pounds) to rell us what is patently obvious? First that Culture Survey conducted by the city council which came to the conclusions that any intelligent observer of the scene would have arrived at without the cost. Now this city centre housing report. Of course more amenities must be built. Of course for long term sustainability there has to be a mix of housing.

di Livio

November 7th, 2005, 07:04 PM

Too true, Fred.
But hey, look at this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/images/2005/11/07/rachel_stevens_203_203x152.gif
On the feast of Stevens
Pop star Rachel Stevens is the big name lined up for the Leeds Christmas Lights switch-on. The former S-Club star will be joined by a host of others including some of the Rhinos finest!

Chart-topping pop star Rachel Stevens will be on hand to perform the traditional switch-on of the Leeds Christmas Lights on Thursday 10 November 2005.

The 27-year-old former S Club 7 member, who has had a string of top-10 hits and released her second solo album 'Come & Get It' last month, will be performing three songs on the specially-built stage at Victoria Gardens on The Headrow in the city centre.

The free event begins at 7pm with a range of special guests appearing before the countdown to the lights switch-on which will be accompanied by a stunning fireworks display.

Lending a helping hand with proceedings will be 'Pop Idol' judge and music manager, Nicki Chapman. Live music will be provided by up-and-coming girl band Love Bites, who will be playing their hit single "You Broke My Heart", before Rachel Stevens takes to the stage for her headline performance.

Leeds Rhinos stars Rob Burrow and Ritchie Mathers will also be there, along with Rhinos mascot Ronnie the Rhino. Harry Potter and Hagrid will ensure the night has a magical feel, while Santa Claus and friends will be adding plenty of Christmas spirit.

All the star names will come together to join Lord Mayor of Leeds Councillor William S Hyde on stage at the finale of the show to officially turn on the 13 miles of Christmas Lights in Leeds city centre and signal the beginning of the late-night shopping season.

Rachel Stevens, Ronnie the Rhino and Hagrid.
(Yes, you heard me correctly)

Liam

November 9th, 2005, 01:49 PM

Just wondering......of the many high rise developments that have been proposed, which are the most likely to get the go ahead? BWP is under construction (I can only view the webcam from here in Sweden), but how long do we have to wait until a new high rise development is started? Pardon my ignorance........

Alexi Lalas

November 9th, 2005, 02:08 PM

early in the new year for providence tower... but surely clarence house can't be too far behind if the deadline is two years.

Leeds No.1

November 9th, 2005, 06:30 PM

bearing in mind The Plaza's smaller buildigns are u/c which means the tower will start within the next few months (probably...)

Fred2

November 9th, 2005, 08:00 PM

There should be a start - certainly within the next two years - on the 26 strorey tower in the second phase of the Gateway development.

jimbo

November 9th, 2005, 10:42 PM

bearing in mind The Plaza's smaller buildigns are u/c which means the tower will start within the next few months (probably...)

like to agree with you No.1, but the fact that Unite needed to go into a joint venture for the funding of the first phase with Lehman Brothers suggests they might be taking a rather risk adverse approach and might be waiting until they start receiving cashflow from phase 1 before commencing on phase 2 (the tower). They may even seek a further joint venture partner to provide the equity for the scheme, something that could take quite a while. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think this will start until the end of 2006 at the earliest

Leeds No.1

November 10th, 2005, 12:43 AM

Well that's just silly then...

mike68

November 11th, 2005, 02:38 PM

It's not easy being this ugly...
By DAVID MARSH
YEP Municipal Reporter
OUCH! We really should have seen them coming but the brickbats hurt all the same.
Prompted by the building boom currently sweeping Leeds and a council-run seminar on good design, we asked readers to tell us which of the city's buildings they disliked the most.
It turns out that we at the YEPwork in it.
Opened by that well known architectural critic Prince Charles and hailed as the epitome of cutting edge design in 1970, it appears the concrete edifice that is Yorkshire Post Newspaper's Wellington Street headquarters has not stood the test of time.
Miss B Hayes, of Markham Avenue, Rawdon, listed it as her most hated building describing it as "depressing and dull – always."
Contrast
It was in stark contrast to her favourite – the Civic Hall, built to give work to people during the 1930s' depression – which she said was a building of great beauty "looking bright and sunny even on a dull day."
Mr Dave Redmond, of Kellett Lane, Upper Wortley, said the newspaper building was "in a prominent position but is hideous due to the concrete and colour."
He too was a fan of the "grand designs and overall opulence" of the Civic Hall.
Leeds International Pool – designed in the 1960s by disgraced architect John Poulson – is a building which over the years has divided opinion.
Mr D Backhouse, of Station Close, Garforth, said the structure – particularly its roof, was an example of good design.
He was also a critic of the City Island apartments complex in Gotts Road, just off the Inner Ring Road, but liked the Edwardian splendour of Leeds Market.
Mr Backhouse feared for the future of the former York Road swimming baths building which he said was being left to rot.
Mr D Boot, of Grosvenor Park Gardens, Headingley, was scathing is his criticism of City Island which he condemned as a shanty town. He much preferred the Crown Court and Magistrates buildings.
Leeds Central Library and City Art Gallery got the vote of Mrs B Ward, of Westbrook close, Horsforth, as "buildings of character and substance, both of which are sadly lacking in the newer buildings."
John Dyson, of Well House Gardens, Oakwood, reserved his displeasure for West Riding House: "It is an unimaginative 15-storey monstrosity plonked on top of a car park blighting the view from Albion Place."
Crown Street Buildings in Crown Street, near the Corn Exchange, left Mr G Senior, of Back Green, Churwell, unimpressed.
Meanwhile, back at the much-loved Civic Hall, Coun Andrew Carter, the council's deputy leader, hailed the seminar on good design a success.

10 November 2005

di Livio

November 11th, 2005, 04:03 PM

John Dyson, of Well House Gardens, Oakwood, reserved his displeasure for West Riding House: "It is an unimaginative 15-storey monstrosity plonked on top of a car park blighting the view from Albion Place."

I'm inclined to agree.

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/98/2004426_8918398.jpg

Simon22

November 11th, 2005, 04:15 PM

I'm inclined to agree.

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/98/2004426_8918398.jpg

It's not that bad IMO and looks ok from a distance, it's just in completely the wrong location. It doesn't fit in with the surroundings.

aviator

November 11th, 2005, 04:37 PM

Since we're on the subject of our least favourite buildings in the city, there's this from today's YEP:

It's out of the old and into the new - But what will become of landmark?

By Jo Rostron

A QUESTION mark hangs over the fate of a landmark Leeds office block following the announcement that 600 staff are to relocate. Government workers will move out of City House, which stands above Leeds Station, in 12 months time.

Owners say all options are open for the 13-storey high office block which could be turned into flats, offices or even a hotel. The move is to push the Government Office for Yorkshire and Humber (GOYH), Highways Agency and Government News Network (GNN) all under one roof in Leeds.

Staff from City House and around 100 employees from GNN on Queen Street will then both operate from the Lateral Building at Sweet Street, Leeds. Charlie Wardroper, acting on behalf of the landlord of City House, said: "It will become empty in about 12 months time and we are currently reviewing what we should do - whether to sell it or hold it.

"We are considering all the options. It's a landmark building which is very prominent above the station and because of that it will get a great deal of interest. It doesn't have to be offices either, it could be residential or a hotel, etc."

Staff are expected to move to the new offices at the Lateral Building at the end of 2006 or early 2007. Government Departments have signed a £29 million agreement for the next 15 years. Up to 700 staff will be re-located to the 95,000 square feet building.

Nick Best, of the Government Office, said: "I am delighted that we have reached agreement for this relocation. We were looking for offices offering modern facilities in a building to be run in the most cost-effective way to the taxpayer for the next 15 years."

Peter Gruen of the Highways Agency added: "The Highways Agency shares this optimism with Government Office colleagues. This is a tremendous opportunity to join together in providing good quality workspace for our staff, whilst enjoying the benefits of an efficient, environmentally friendly building."

Skopie

November 11th, 2005, 06:48 PM

Just read an article that construction will start on a development of £60,000 (Build price, not sale price) houses at Allerton Bywater next spring. This is what we're getting, should be a few hundread of them in the development, shoddy render unfortunately.

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/Pictures/web/m/g/b/HTA_BA~5-long.jpg

di Livio

November 11th, 2005, 07:13 PM

It's not that bad IMO and looks ok from a distance, it's just in completely the wrong location. It doesn't fit in with the surroundings.

:) I'm inclined to agree. I don't like the way it ruins the Albion Place streetscape.

Perhaps it could be re-clad in white terracotta (or 'marmo' as Sue Wrathmell wants to call it)

Leeds No.1

November 11th, 2005, 07:30 PM

I think it should be a light colour but not white as there are already 3? towers which are white. Possibly the colour of Cavendish House, and I also think it might look better a bit split up with some vertical lines somewhere. One the note of Cavendish House, what do you think? I quite like it, certainly and improvement, and the base looks OK (considering its a reclad). There will be a major new Yorkshire Bank here to replace the other 2 in the city centre and PC Worlds first city centre store. Not sure about any other shops, I know there are more though. I wonder how expensive those penthouses or apartments (whatever they are) are. The Old Post Office, City Square 6 star serviced apartments are coming early 2006. This therefore leads me to think that the whole scheme should be completed early next year...

Rob

November 11th, 2005, 08:37 PM

jimbo

November 11th, 2005, 08:56 PM

Looks like the apartment block on the old ABC cinema could be finally moving forward at last. This week's Construction News is advertising for a contractor for part of the works, and it appears that Gleeson are already on board as the main contractor.

Good news, its a bit of a blot on the landscape is the old ABC which has been derelict for about 5 years now. As I remember the building was reapproved (presuming its the same design) a couple of months back and is being developed by Cala Homes, although the planning app was in the name of Kaikoura Investments. New York House it is, and about 14 storeys designed by Carey Jones.
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7057/vicarlane1jf.jpg
Remember a couple of posters being a bit vitriolic about this one, but I really don't think its that bad. Looks like a mini version of the Plaza IMO.

Rob

November 11th, 2005, 09:02 PM

Leeds No.1

November 11th, 2005, 09:19 PM

Yes I thought it looked like a mini Plaza too (I thought it was the Plaza when I first saw it, quite a long time ago now). I noticed that the density is building up too in Leeds, it does have quite a consistent density, and it can be seen from anywhere the skyline is viewed from. Although the tallest building (or structure I suppose) is BWP, the fact that they are all mid rise and that its in a valley makes it look really good- the skyline view is amazing from the M621, A61 and M1. I can't imagine what it will be like in 5 years time. The lit up buildings such as the green uplighting on K2, the lighting on The Light for example really make the city centre exciting.

Rob

November 12th, 2005, 12:03 PM

Talking of balanced density, I've borrowed this photo from Marks website (www.leeds-cityscape.co.uk) (cheers Mark :okay: ) taken from the top of BWP, which shows some of the nice compact density of central Leeds quite well.

http://www.leeds-cityscape.co.uk/photos/30-10-2005/City.jpg

SmartCity

November 12th, 2005, 02:29 PM

Mmmm CP will look quite nice in the corner there!!

jimbo

November 13th, 2005, 03:04 PM

I quite like it and hope it goes up soon, as the inner ring road is starting look really well built up, with the Plaza and the George St apartments starting to show up on the ring road, and the Ibis Hotel and City Island further west. The future will bring other ring road neighbours at the swimming pool site, Wade Lane tower and a shorter block next to the Gas tower.

In addition, the Crispin Lofts building on the corner of North Street is due to become an aparthotel, or so the planning application said. Brings just that little bit more to the previously neglected upper part of Vicar Lane. These little (relative) schemes should keep us ticking over until Harewood/Eastgate begins (hopefully) in 2007.

di Livio

November 13th, 2005, 03:59 PM

Also form Mark's superb website - Awaiting C Place

http://www.leeds-cityscape.co.uk/photos/30-10-2005/Criterion_Place.jpg

A view from near the top of BWP

http://www.leeds-cityscape.co.uk/photos/10-11-2005/From_6th_floor_Bridgewater_Place_looking_north.jpg

Smoggie_Si

November 13th, 2005, 10:09 PM

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7057/vicarlane1jf.jpg
Remember a couple of posters being a bit vitriolic about this one, but I really don't think its that bad. Looks like a mini version of the Plaza IMO.

Dunno who that could have been... ;)

:runaway:

SmartCity

November 14th, 2005, 11:32 PM

Did anybody happen to catch the program about Leeds on Life TV tonight? It really did show Leeds at its best, visiting everywhere from Millennium Square, Park Plaza Hotel to Tropical World.

The program gave a website address but it doesn't work for me www.britainsbestplaces.com

Leeds No.1

November 14th, 2005, 11:43 PM

http://www.britainsbestbreaks.tv/

SmartCity

November 14th, 2005, 11:49 PM

http://www.britainsbestbreaks.tv/

Doh!! :doh: Cheers Leeds No.1

Notice the next viewing is at 9pm on the 28th November - think its Sky channel 160

Leeds No.1

November 15th, 2005, 12:39 AM

lol OK, Ill try to watch it next week (if I remember).
St. Johns centre is a bit of a strange place to choose though... Its OK etc but Im sure something like the light would make a better review (even though theres not exactly loads in it).

heavymetalmayhem

November 15th, 2005, 02:58 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/articles/2005/04/27/local_history_hidden_leeds_feature.shtml

Came across this site just now. Don't know if it has ever been mentioned on here before but there are some really fascinating comments worth a read. Does anyone here (Fred) know of anything they can add?

Hidden Leeds

You might not give it a second thought as you walk along Leeds' busy streets but there is a whole world hidden under your feet.

It all started with a discussion on the BBC Leeds messageboard about wasted space in Leeds. During the discussion Rich Edwards said: "I've heard rumours and urban myths of everything from nuclear bunkers under the Civic Hall to a part-completed subway system abandoned in Victorian times..."

Other posters went on to talk about old streets buried under the Merrion Centre and rumour of a mothballed Odeon cinema in the same shopping centre.

Suddenly hidden Leeds was out in the open. It can be a world in which it is difficult to separate fact from fiction but here goes...

Alexi Lalas

November 15th, 2005, 03:02 PM

i know they are plenty of rooms and corridors under millenium square but how old they are i don't actually know. probably only as old as the square itself. but they are used for dressing rooms etc when artists perform there.

di Livio

November 15th, 2005, 04:02 PM

I saw the bathrooms under City Square when it was undergoing refurbishment a few years back. They were intricately tiled in an Edwardian sty-lee and covered over a couple of weeks later.

http://www.leodis.org/imagesLeodis/screen/85/2002815_8504885.jpg

and below is the 'hotel' beneath Commercial street.

http://www.leodis.org/imagesLeodis/screen/68/7968.jpg

Leeds No.1

November 15th, 2005, 06:38 PM

Yes I've seen that article before. I read somewhere that commercial street is a whole storey higher up than it used to be... The rooms under Millennium Square were built with the square, I don't know if there were any there before that but the ones which are there now are toilets, dressing rooms, production office etc all of modern standard, nothing particularly hidden- the stairs down to them are easily located on the Square. Theres also a small network of large tunnels intendeed to service the city in the east but the idea never caught on so they were abandoned. Thats all I know!

magicrealist

November 15th, 2005, 07:50 PM

Hidden Leeds
You might not give it a second thought as you walk along Leeds' busy streets but there is a whole world hidden under your feet...
Glasgow has a fully fledged and fascinating "hidden" (in the euphemistic sense) documented most impressively here:

http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/

Ah, the urban fabric.....

CharlieP

November 15th, 2005, 10:30 PM

CharlieP

November 15th, 2005, 10:33 PM

After looking at those excellent photos, I hope they do something similar with the Hilton, also why couldn't the redevelopment of the station have included that hideously nasty squat little 60's office block...?

Leeds_John

November 15th, 2005, 10:44 PM

jimbo

November 15th, 2005, 11:18 PM

Dismantle the horrific leviathan City House and at least re-clad (and add a few stories) the Hilton building, something similar to the re-styling of K2, not the poor effort of the Park Plaza reclad. Oh, and maybe get cracking with Criterion Place to give the area some eminence

sounds like a wish list. It'll soon be the 2006 predictions time old boy! The Hilton is a stinker, ideal situation is a brand new Hilton in one of the Criterion Place towers. Now that would be a fine idea.

Leeds_John

November 15th, 2005, 11:31 PM

jimbo

November 15th, 2005, 11:37 PM

I'll put my thinking cap on and furnish santa with a list of what construction gifts he should bestow the the good folk of Leeds in 2006. I for one am hoping to get a city centre apartment in 2006 so i want to see some action (I am attracted to City Island, sorry chaps, i know a lot of you dislike that one). I just hope he doesnt get too distracted and giddy by all the Coca Cola he will be supping... or concern himself too much with the insane amounts of construction in Dubai

I like City Island, nice design, location between the river and canal is unique, i really only object to the lack of infrastructure. The developers were supposed to put a bridge across the river to link to the back of Wellington Place thus providing a quick route to Wellington Street / Whitehall Road. Sadly they reneged on this. Once Monksbridge works and Wellington Place really get motoring, City Island will be much more connected to the centre. Its location means its slightly better value than any of the other waterside sites.

Leeds_John

November 15th, 2005, 11:50 PM

Getting there is a problem, it is a trek and one has to walk past the YEP building which tends to turn the stomach a little, but it does have good access to the Ring Road. As for City Island itself being between both the river and the canal and having an interesting an spacious piazza means it is unique and gives it a mini-community feel. though i bet with it being full of Yuppies any community feel may be superficial.

Fred2

November 16th, 2005, 01:41 AM

Stig282

November 16th, 2005, 11:25 AM

Heard from planners yesterday that bridge is still in pipeline and options are being looked at.
Difficulties lie in costings and land rights I believe.

Fred2

November 16th, 2005, 03:50 PM

Heard from planners yesterday that bridge is still in pipeline and options are being looked at.
Difficulties lie in costings and land rights I believe.

Why weren't these sorted out before advertising the footbridge as part of the claim that the development was in easy walking distance of town ? If I were a resident, who wanted to be within walking distance of work and bought there on the strength of the advertising blurb, I would be hopping mad.

Liam

November 16th, 2005, 04:07 PM

London - 35
Manchester - 31
Glasgow - 23
Leeds - 9
Liverpool - 6
Cardiff - 5
Birmingham - 4
Dublin - 3
Edinburgh - 2
Sheffield - 2

Above is the list of high rises u\c in UK cities at present. (Info copied from UK Booming thread). Seems as though we're lagging a little......

di Livio

November 16th, 2005, 05:13 PM

http://www.leedscivictrust.org.uk/

Two upcoming events at the Art Gallery - one concerning the arena, the other the AGM of the civic trust.

Your opportunity to heckle.

Leeds_John

November 16th, 2005, 05:14 PM

what height is classed as a "high-rise"? i would put it at 20+ floors and there sure isnt 9 U/C in Leeds at present!

Jonaldo

November 16th, 2005, 06:34 PM

Reading between the lines they was classing 35m+ as 'high rise'. At a guess I think that figure was used to the advantage of somebody to give a strong emphasis to their own cause.

In my book (in this country) we should probably be classing a 'high rise' as 75m+?

Leeds No.1

November 16th, 2005, 09:55 PM

www.citysquarehouse.co.uk Can anyone open the videos on this updated site?
www.citypointleeds.co.uk is a good site (in that its updated regularly) for this development. This is quite an excitign development actually, small but will fill an important site and improve the look at street level.

Liam

November 17th, 2005, 11:32 AM

what height is classed as a "high-rise"? i would put it at 20+ floors and there sure isnt 9 U/C in Leeds at present!

Anything over 12-15 floors is high rise (so I've been told). The stats on my previous comment were copied from another forum as I stated, and have no idea of the accuracy. The idea was to stimulate a response....do we lag so far behind in the development stakes?

Being in Sweden, and watching a fantastic program on redevlopment in the UK on 'BBC World', it became apparent that Manchester was streets ahead. Some of the canal contruction and dockside redelopment was absoloutley tremendous. If you don't believe me, go and check it out for yourselves.
Anyway, my interest lies with Leeds - can we expect a comparable rate of redelopment?

Fred2

November 17th, 2005, 11:53 AM

Anything over 12-15 floors is high rise (so I've been told). The stats on my previous comment were copied from another forum as I stated, and have no idea of the accuracy. The idea was to stimulate a response....do we lag so far behind in the development stakes?

Being in Sweden, and watching a fantastic program on redevlopment in the UK on 'BBC World', it became apparent that Manchester was streets ahead. Some of the canal contruiction and dockside redelopment was absoloutley tremendous. If you don't believe me, go and check it out for yourselves.
Anyway, my interest lies with Leeds - can we expect a comparable rate of redelopment?

If we compare the populations of Leeds and Manchester, Leeds is not doing too badly in the redevelopment area.

Liam

November 17th, 2005, 12:04 PM

Actually Fred, having looked in a little more detail, I'm astounded at the amount of developments. Can't wait to get back to Leeds to take it all in.......providing I don't get lost!

Simon22

November 17th, 2005, 01:01 PM

If we compare the populations of Leeds and Manchester, Leeds is not doing too badly in the redevelopment area.

9 compared to 31 reflects badly on Leeds IMO (lets not get into an argument about the size of the cities again though!). What amazes me is that London only has 35 and B’Ham only 4. For Manchester to have 8 times as much high rise development compared to the Brum is amazing when you consider that the CBD's of both cities are of a comparable size. I am dubious about these figures.

I also suspect someone has used data/specifications to give strong emphasis to some sort of point they are making.

Jonaldo

November 17th, 2005, 01:24 PM

At a guess I think that figure was used to the advantage of somebody to give a strong emphasis to their own cause.

I also suspect someone has used data/specifications to give strong emphasis to some sort of point they are making.

I'm glad we agree then :)

What is the saying? Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics....

Liam

November 17th, 2005, 02:12 PM

Yes, this was taken from one of those mind blowingly inane "my city is better than yours" debates. I did suspect that these figures were not the most reliable on earth.....just wondered if the scale of the disparity was in any way accurate.

Simon22

November 17th, 2005, 02:15 PM

The one who posted the figures wasn't from Manchester was he???!!!!!

Liam

November 17th, 2005, 02:20 PM

The one who posted the figures wasn't from Manchester was he???!!!!!
Probably. The argument was along the tedious Birmingham Vs Manchester lines I believe. But this argument, coupled with the TV footage I've seen recently about Manchester's regeneration made me wonder.....

The Oil

November 17th, 2005, 03:39 PM

Probably. The argument was along the tedious Birmingham Vs Manchester lines I believe. But this argument, coupled with the TV footage I've seen recently about Manchester's regeneration made me wonder.....

I'm not sure what the criteria is but I THINK it's that Manchester has over 30 buildings u/c at the moment which will be over 35 metres when completed.

di Livio

November 17th, 2005, 05:18 PM

Some interesting photos on this site, including skylines circa 19thc

http://www.maggieblanck.com/Land/PhotosEngland.html

di Livio

November 17th, 2005, 05:21 PM

Liam

November 17th, 2005, 05:30 PM

Some interesting photos on this site, including skylines circa 19thc

http://www.maggieblanck.com/Land/PhotosEngland.html
Very interesting site......especially like the 1905 Briggate picture.....

magicrealist

November 17th, 2005, 05:43 PM

There are two good views of Bridgewater Place which i haven't mentioned (it seems to be visible from just about anywhere now), outside these buildings on the narrow, York-shambles-like Dock street and from the riverside walkway in front of the old Green flag/privelege building.

http://www.maggieblanck.com/Land/Images/Leeds11.jpg
Well, if I stand on my balcony above the Loft shop I get a great view of BWP to the left and the emerging Gateway to the right.

BWP seems to cut straight through the middle of the sky when approaching from Dock St.

I must take some pics, but Amazon the bastards sent me the Fuji xD card but no Fuji camera. "Discontinued" apparently. I mean, WTF is that all about? When I ordered it it was available in 1-2 weeks. Then just the memory card arrives and an email saying the camera isn't! Grrrrr...BTW, anyone wanna buy a 256MB xD card?

Simon22

November 17th, 2005, 06:08 PM

I'm not sure what the criteria is but I THINK it's that Manchester has over 30 buildings u/c at the moment which will be over 35 metres when completed.

As has been said before there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Even if the figures are true a far better indicator of development is the amount of floor space being developed.

One development of 1m sq ft is more significant than 9 of 100,000 sq ft.

Fred2

November 17th, 2005, 06:55 PM

As has been said before there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Even if the figures are true a far better indicator of development is the amount of floor space being developed.

One development of 1m sq ft is more significant than 9 of 100,000 sq ft.

Point taken. But can anyone do a comparison of floorspaces u/c for us?

SmartCity

November 17th, 2005, 08:02 PM

Well, if I stand on my balcony above the Loft shop I get a great view of BWP to the left and the emerging Gateway to the right.

BWP seems to cut straight through the middle of the sky when approaching from Dock St.

I must take some pics, but Amazon the bastards sent me the Fuji xD card but no Fuji camera. "Discontinued" apparently. I mean, WTF is that all about? When I ordered it it was available in 1-2 weeks. Then just the memory card arrives and an email saying the camera isn't! Grrrrr...BTW, anyone wanna buy a 256MB xD card?

....At least you got a memory card. I had my Fuji camera stolen whilst on my jollies in Marmaris, Turkey. The bastards took the twelve days of photos too.

aviator

November 17th, 2005, 10:03 PM

I wandered up to see the St George's development this lunchtime. Not much to report, I know

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/apm22/17%20Nov%202005/P1010003.jpg

But look to the right and you can see St George's Church

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/apm22/17%20Nov%202005/P1010005.jpg

The block of flats is being built on the site of a derelict parochial hall that belonged to the church. As part of the deal, some building work is happening on the church, as you can see with the scaffolding around the top of the tower

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/apm22/17%20Nov%202005/P1010008.jpg

The story here is that the church, which you can see looks rather squat and deformed, was shorn of its spire in 1962 (some saying it blew down, others that it was dismantled). Forty-odd years on, it is being restored

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/05/200379_56802005.jpg

I know the picture is a bit blurred but I think the spire will look splendid when it's back in place.

di Livio

November 17th, 2005, 10:30 PM

I wandered up to see the St George's development this lunchtime. Not much to report, I know

Well, i'm pleased they're using brick instead of pan-tiles.

... the block to the left of the first shot looks a bit like the Drayman in Dortmund Square.

Stig282

November 18th, 2005, 11:02 AM

I wandered up to see the St George's development this lunchtime. Not much to report, I know
...

But look to the right and you can see St George's Church

The block of flats is being built on the site of a derelict parochial hall that belonged to the church. As part of the deal, some building work is happening on the church, as you can see with the scaffolding around the top of the tower

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/apm22/17%20Nov%202005/P1010008.jpg

The story here is that the church, which you can see looks rather squat and deformed, was shorn of its spire in 1962 (some saying it blew down, others that it was dismantled). Forty-odd years on, it is being restored

http://www.leodis.net/imagesLeodis/screen/05/200379_56802005.jpg

I know the picture is a bit blurred but I think the spire will look splendid when it's back in place.

:eek2: That's a fantastic piece of news, how come we hadn't heard about it - this sort of thing should be all over the papers/LookNorth/Calendar etc.

ahmedd

November 18th, 2005, 12:10 PM

This was metioned on the civic trust website and local news when this was anounced. The deal was that they would restore the church tower in return for being able to build on the land. The tower and spire would make a great addition to the skyline.

Leeds No.1

November 18th, 2005, 07:11 PM

Grand designs on the banks of River Aire
A £12M contract to build apartments on the edge of the Saltaire World Heritage Centre has been awarded to Ilkley-based Quarmby Construction.
Developers Newmason Properties last week signed a deal that will see Quarmby move on site within a month.
Over the next 16 months the company will work with Newmason to create VM1 - the first of three futuristic curved glazed buildings providing 200 luxury apartments on the banks of the River Aire.
Work on VM1, featuring a rotunda and sail-shaped elevations, follows Newmason's restoration of a Grade II Listed worsted mill on the same site at Victoria Mills in Salts Mill Road. Over 100 apartments have already been created by the conversion which, like VM1, boasts craftsman-built interiors, along with concierge facilities, private parking, CCTV security, a tennis court and gymnasium plus intranet and internet services.
Quarmby managing director, David Jones, said: "It's an exciting project. We are setting up offices next to Newmason's design team at Victoria Mills, so we can work hand-in-hand." Quarmby has won many awards for its work which includes the Round Foundry, in Leeds City Centre.
17 November 2005

Just out of Leeds, but still quite relevant I think. Should make it better! Saltaire and the northern areas of Leeds and Bradford are really good but not promoted or maintained really well. For example, Saltaire itself and Shipley...etc is really not that nice on the urban side but with some money it could be much more attractive.

Skopie

November 18th, 2005, 07:27 PM

Saltaire not atractive? It's a beautiful town, with property prices as high as many places in North Leeds.

Leeds No.1

November 18th, 2005, 07:45 PM

Yeh but as soon as you're out of it its not. Shipley, Bingley, Bradford and all those sorta places have huge potential to be a really amazing place but currently in general its disused and underused mills, factories...etc which could be loft style apartments or something, wrapped by a network of badly surfaced and badly organized roads which in some places is hard to tell whether its dual carriageway or not. You can hardly deny it, very little in the way of new structures is needed to improve it. Its all about upgrading whats there.

Skopie

November 19th, 2005, 04:19 PM

Does anyone have the link to the website which was loads of aerial photographs of Leeds? I can't find it anywhere.

Leeds No.1

November 19th, 2005, 04:22 PM

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/leeds/leeds.htm

kids

November 19th, 2005, 04:38 PM

9 compared to 31 reflects badly on Leeds IMO (lets not get into an argument about the size of the cities again though!). What amazes me is that London only has 35 and B’Ham only 4. For Manchester to have 8 times as much high rise development compared to the Brum is amazing when you consider that the CBD's of both cities are of a comparable size. I am dubious about these figures.

I also suspect someone has used data/specifications to give strong emphasis to some sort of point they are making.

heh, the figures i posted were 100% accurate (except london's may be higher). i took the info from www.skyscrapernews.com (edited by the mods of this forum). And yes, birmingham is that low, i was shocked too.

here is my post

Total Number of highrises U/C in the uk, cities

London - 35
Manchester - 31
Glasgow - 23
Leeds - 9
Liverpool - 6
Cardiff - 5
Birmingham - 4 (seems abit too low)
Dublin - 3
Edinburgh - 2
Sheffeild - 2

Portsmouth, Bury St Edmunds, Nottingham, Sunderland, Southampton - all have 1

= 124 :)

Manchester might topple london soon

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/bdbsearch.php?adv=advs&ad=&co=&cou=&regions=All&countries=All&stat=Under+Construction&type=All&cd=&hstatus=All&rh=&sh=&bh=&fl=&lc=&cc=&lsv=&arc=&dev=&ocon=&Submit=Search

Also, it's not that leeds is doing bad, its that Manchester is doing phenominally well in comparison to its size.

Leeds No.1

November 19th, 2005, 05:26 PM

So what is a hi-rise defined as in that list? A skyscraper (For UK standards) I've always said 80m/20floorsish and above and hi-rise about 55/60m 15 storeys...
It would be interesting to see what the proposals list is- it might be the case that one city (probably London or Manchester has like 30 'hi-rise' proposals but all down the lower end but Birmingham or Leeds have 10 which are higher... those cities just used for example not based on anything really)

caw123

November 19th, 2005, 06:09 PM

So what is a hi-rise defined as in that list? A skyscraper (For UK standards) I've always said 80m/20floorsish and above and hi-rise about 55/60m 15 storeys...

35m generally but occasionally buildings a few metres shorter are added to skyscrapernews.

Though these lists of current constructions are a tad misleading because they don't factor in recently completed highrises, which would also give an indication of how well the city is doing.
According to snuk Leeds has completed 18 35m+ buildings in the past 5 years, in the same timeframe, Birmingham has completed 6.

Skopie

November 19th, 2005, 06:18 PM

When we compare ourselves to London, having about 1/5 the amount of development, despite being about 14 times smaller we're not doing too bad.

I don't think Leeds is doing badly at all, I do wish more construction was going on, but I don't think the city could soak up any more development at the moment, the demand just isn't there.

Alexi Lalas

November 19th, 2005, 06:33 PM

[QUOTE=Leeds No.1]A skyscraper (For UK standards) I've always said 80m/20floorsish and above and hi-rise about 55/60m 15 storeys...
QUOTE]

i just love the fact that you have created your very own personal definition for a skyscraper and a high-rise. oh the arrogance haha.

Leeds_John

November 19th, 2005, 07:03 PM

i am with LN 1 on this Alexi, a "high-rise" is completely arbitrary and relative and up to the judgement of the individual to decide what a high-rise is! it is not arrogance, just his own perspective, influenced by environment... can you honestly say, being from Leeds, that anything below 20 floors is a "high-rise"?? if you can, thats your perspective! i for one agree that being from Leeds that sub-20 floors is a "mid-rise" and 20+ floors is a high-rise. im sure if i lived in New York or Dubai then 20 floors would be tiny, but if i lived in 7th Century England then 35 meters would be immense!

anyways, enough of me typing jibberish

Fred2

November 19th, 2005, 07:21 PM

According to snuk Leeds has completed 18 35m+ buildings in the past 5 years, in the same time frame, Birmingham has completed 6.

Probably because much high rise building took place in Birmingham some years ago when it would have been unthinkable in Leeds. (see Five Ways/ Broad Street area)

The Oil

November 20th, 2005, 01:44 AM

I know this has been asked before but can someone tell me how to post some images? Smallish ones, not the ones that dominate your screeen.....

Many Thanks!!!

Fred2

November 20th, 2005, 02:44 AM

aviator

November 20th, 2005, 05:47 PM

Leeds No.1

November 20th, 2005, 06:29 PM

Wasn't there a convience store of something (Cant remember which chain) on East Parade opening, or I think it was East Parade... Marks and Spencer and the shops on the station are OK, even though bit expensive. A tesco metro or something like that would be good, maybe somewhere near Calverley Street/Park Row and Westgate.

Fred2

November 20th, 2005, 07:13 PM

One cannot expect a convenience shop to open unless there is critical mass of potential customers living round about. As yet there is nothing in Clarence Dock but two are now open in or very near to Brewery Wharf. Regarding other amenities, it seems to be the chicken and egg situation. Health surgeries and nurseries will only open when there are families living in the area, and they will only move in if the right sort of accommodation is built (which it isn't!), and then again no families will move in without the provision of schools, health surgeries and nurseries. One advantage of building up a mixed population in city centres is to add to efforts to reduce traffic congestion by cutting down on commuting

jimbo

November 20th, 2005, 07:34 PM

People often seem to forget the M&S basement foodhall on Briggate. Obviously its rather more expensive that Tesco et al, but at least provides the basis food shopping needs of city centre dwellers. I think a Tesco Metro in the old Allders building would be a perfect fit for the location.

The Nisa Metro and the future Co-op for the West Central site are also welcome additions, although that West end of Wellington Street is still very much in development and until Globe Road, Whitehall Road, Wellington Place and Mayfair start to attract residents I don't see much else opening.

As Fred points out, its taken a year or two, but the amenities in Brewery Wharf are starting to branch out, and I'd suspect something (perhaps coffee place, newsagents) will finally open in Clarence Dock around the same time as the Holiday Inn.

Leeds No.1

November 20th, 2005, 07:34 PM

There are some walk in health centres though now. As for convience stores, Clarence Dock were looking for shops to move in, Waitrose one of the ones I can remember being mentioned, so this proves that they are trying to pull in convenience stores. There is Morrisons to the north of the centre too.

jimbo

November 20th, 2005, 07:38 PM

I know this has been asked before but can someone tell me how to post some images? Smallish ones, not the ones that dominate your screeen.....

Many Thanks!!!

you need to register with something like imagestation
Imagestation (http://reg.imageshack.us/v_images.php) and follow the instructions from there. The site will give you embeddable code which you can simply copy into the post reply thus displaying your images.

Tis quite simple once you've registered and got one uploaded.

The Oil

November 20th, 2005, 09:39 PM

you need to register with something like imagestation
Imagestation (http://reg.imageshack.us/v_images.php) and follow the instructions from there. The site will give you embeddable code which you can simply copy into the post reply thus displaying your images.

Tis quite simple once you've registered and got one uploaded.

Thanks Jimbo.

Simon22

November 21st, 2005, 10:42 AM

heh, the figures i posted were 100% accurate (except london's may be higher). i took the info from www.skyscrapernews.com (edited by the mods of this forum). And yes, birmingham is that low, i was shocked too.

here is my post

Also, it's not that leeds is doing bad, its that Manchester is doing phenominally well in comparison to its size.

If you are going to compare the development schemes in cities you need to use proper criteria such as the amount of square feet of space being developed. Lists like the one you have cited don't offer the full picture and if taken at face value, without looking deeper, can give misleading impressions. At first glance Manchester appears to be up with London in the development stakes but I would bet my life that most of the 35 developments in London are far larger than those in Manchester.

You also need to consider what amount of the space being developed is Grade A space i.e. prime office/commercial/residential space that investors will actively demand, very often signing up before the construction is completed as opposed to less desireable developments which can stand vacant for months.

Stig282

November 21st, 2005, 11:23 AM

kids

November 21st, 2005, 12:15 PM

If you are going to compare the development schemes in cities you need to use proper criteria such as the amount of square feet of space being developed. Lists like the one you have cited don't offer the full picture and if taken at face value, without looking deeper, can give misleading impressions. At first glance Manchester appears to be up with London in the development stakes but I would bet my life that most of the 35 developments in London are far larger than those in Manchester.

You also need to consider what amount of the space being developed is Grade A space i.e. prime office/commercial/residential space that investors will actively demand, very often signing up before the construction is completed as opposed to less desireable developments which can stand vacant for months.

Jesus christ :bash:

the thread i posted that in was about the boom in HIGHRISE DEVELOPMENTS in the uk. I was just emphasising this and gloating abit at how high manchester was. I wasn't trying to have a proper comparison in developments on the whole, though, i'd take a guess that if we did a list of grade A office space u/c in the uk it would look similar to the one i posted.

Simon22

November 21st, 2005, 12:32 PM

But highrise development is about far more than the number of buildings over 35m or whatever criteria you set isn't it? Well to me it is anyway.

Do your research on grade A office space and if Manchester has 8 times the development of B'ham and just less than London I will personally buy you your own Penthouse in one of Manchesters towers........................

Liam

November 21st, 2005, 01:24 PM

Now, now kids, c'mon. I started my line of enquiry (it was I that copied and pasted "Kids in the riot's" comparison list) and I stated, quite clearly, that it was part of a TEDIOUS, dare I say purile argument of "my town's better than yours". The fact is that I was trying to find out how accurate this was and not generate the same inane argument on another thread.....

kids

November 21st, 2005, 02:41 PM

Maybe i was gloating abit but i tend not to get into those sorts of arguments.

"The fact is that I was trying to find out how accurate this was and not generate the same inane argument on another thread....."

And i answered you, i was not trying to start an argument here.

magicrealist

November 21st, 2005, 07:25 PM

In yesterday’s Property Section of the Daily Telegraph there was an article about the 'delights' of city centre living in Leeds:” City centre- or middle of nowhere?”.

It reports on a recent survey which highlights the lack of basic amenities and the fact that the community living in the centre of Leeds is not a balanced community. One couple interviewed in the article complained about the inability to have a simple thing like a takeaway delivered to their apartment. A lack of convenience stores, nurseries, crèches, health centres and green space was mentioned. Apparently also, in the past two years, the average two bedroom apartment in the city centre has shrunk from 750 to 650 square feet. One agent predicted that the population in town will increase from 9,000 to 20,000 over the next ten years. Another resident complained about the slowness in getting repairs done; a shower leak taking six months ! There is nowhere to have a barbecue and he has to drive 25 minutes to the nearest supermarket. He is thinking of moving back to the suburbs where his monthly outlay would buy a substantial pile – and there is no trouble in getting pizza companies to deliver to the door.

However one optimistic estate agent, acknowledging these deficiences now, predicted that they would be sorted within five years time.

There is an accompanying article about city living in Manchester which has very similar drawbacks.
As someone who has lived in the city since 1998, I feel I have something to contribute to this interesting debate.

OK - if you want to live in the city you simply must make compromises. One of them is a garden for freakin' BBQs! Jeesh, would've thought that was obvious for all but the most expensive penthouse - not enough outdoor space. If you want a garden, erm live in the suburbs/countryside, right? And as for being able to afford a "substantial pile" somewhere nice, then forget it. Believe it or not, the city centre is cheaper than North Leeds. Good housing stock is in such short supply in the more sought after areas, that living in the city can be much cheaper, esp if you work there.

Problem getting a takeaway? They're having a larf ain't they! I must get two dozen flyers a week from takeaways from far and wide! However, most are not up to much (with the exception of some of the ones in Harehills) so I prefer to order from somewhere like Spice 4U and pick it up. Nice excuse for a quick beer in Milo on the way...

Convenience stores were a bit thin on the ground (apart from M&S at the station until 10pm and obviously M&S on Briggate & Mozzies up at the Merrion Centre) until recently. In the last 6 months a couple of local stores have opened up near me. Simpsons on Dock St and further down opposite Aedas architects and Oracle, Yum Yum. Both selling stuff like you'd get at your local corner shop except more at the top-end to justify the high prices. Not that convenient for a monthly shop, but perfectly adequate. Both open 'til 8 or 9 or 10!

If I want to go supermarket shopping I get in the car (or taxi) like anyone else.

Other facilities like GPs and Dentists and so on are prob just as near if you were out in the burbs. Obviously we can visit A&E if we're desperate! Schools? Don't be daft. The demographic couldn't support one. Whether this will change is doubtful.

Personally, I prefer living in the city. It suits me, but it won't suit everyone. Each to his own I guess. Plus, the Dock St area is a little more mature in terms of development so has had more time to "bed down" and get some kind of community feel. Communities are all about the people who live there making a bit of an effort to be friendly and say hello. You can be just as isolated in your new-build Barrat 3 bed semi + garden in the 'burbs than you can living in the centre of town.