In this forum, we've been talking about the so-called inevitable merging between the NYC and Phila metros into one metro, which will eventually go in favor to NYC. I understand that a similar merge happened in the 80's with the Baltimore and DC metros, and in the future, Boston and Providence metros, will merge, eventually surpassing the Phila metro in population??? Honestly, I don't see how a merger between the two cities will be of benefit to both cities, especially Philadelphia. While NYC is an Alpha world-class city, we're one notch below of even being in the lowest rating of a Gamma world-class city. In my opinion, it will only feed NYC's big ego of being this big metro area and such and such, but I see them as separate metros. Baltimore and DC both share TV stations, as do Providence and Boston, but Phila and NYC don't. Also, there's different culture between the two cities. In NYC,they're called brownstones, while in Phila, they're called rowhomes. They have hot dogs, we have steaks. They have hero sandwiches, we have hoagies. They say wat-uh, most of us say wooder. They say dimepiece, we say jawn. You get the picture.

it will never, ever happen. philadelphia is a city in it's own right, and always will be.

anyone that thinks that philly will become part of new york city's metro would have to say that baltimore is part of washington dc's metro. those cities have already "merged", but we still recognize them as two separate cities that happen to be close to each other. baltimore was never absorbed by washington, or vice versa. the same will be for philly.

c'mon now......lol. lemme make TWO points.

1) philly's TWO hours from NYC. to be included in somebody else's metro area, i think u have to be within 50 miles of that particular city.

2) philly's done so much to build up it's own reputation. this would truly be a MAJOR slap in the face for the "city of brotherly love" if this merger ever was to come about.

i can see b'more/dc and boston/providence being considered ONE market. they're so very close.

I don't think so... maybe they could join together to be part of a CMSA in the future... as NYC's urban area spreads out in all directions... inlcuding the way to Philly. But Philadlephia is already 1.5 million city 6 million metro by itself.

NO!

no. too far apart and phila has its own thing going on.

If they were to merge whenever that were to happen which I doubt, they would be recognized as being in eachother's metro like DC and B'more, if there's connection, it doesn't really matter if they're different cities, even if they're very different like DC and B'more. It would be NYC-Philly.

I'd like to think not but if both cities continue to sling their influence further beyond their borders, time may prove us all wrong.

I'd be the first one to spit in someone's face if they called Philadelphia a NYC suburb. That's a dig you won't walk away from.

^Amen VZ

NYC is not really growing towards Philly...ofcourse NYC will try it's damndest to grow within the state which means to the east and the north.

Baltimore and DC both share TV stations, as do Providence and Boston, but Phila and NYC don't. Also, there's different culture between the two cities.

DC and Baltimore have their own TV stations and even some radio stations, you can't get in Baltimore, but can receive in DC (and vice-versa) despite being so close to one another. I don't know about Providence and Boston.

I think NYC and Philly could join and form one CMSA, while still maintaining their own MSA, like DC/Baltimore, but I agree, I think NYC would overshadow Philly, much like DC overshadows Baltimore, but that could actually be to their advantage economically. Baltimore recently started a marketing campaign (http://www.livebaltimore.com) in DC to get Washingtonians to move to their city, and commute to DC via commuter train, where their buck would go a lot further, and so far it has worked. Baltimore is undergoing a lot of revitilization now.

I'm not exactly sure how the metro area designation is applied but...

Philadelphia's metro area border is probably only around 30 to 35 miles away from New York's metro border. Also, the cities of New York and Philadelphia proper are about 65 miles apart at their closest points, i.e. Northeast Philadelphia to Staten Island. Given these facts, I don't think it is naive to speculate about the possibility of a combined metropolitan area within our lifetimes.

It could be good or bad for Philadelphia depending on how Philadelphia goes about marketing itself, and how it approaches the opportunities of such a statistical merge.

Whoever said yes should be shot.

I think it is only a matter of time before NYC and Philly merge. As long as their metros keep growing, it will happen eventually, whether it be 50 years or 200 years. but jus the fact that they touch won't mean that one will absorb the other.

Bmore and DC are far closer, they do share many TV stations and radio stations. Even their economic bureau is the same (Baltimore-Washington Economic Council or something like that). There are plans to merge the two cities' mass transit, ad many people, including myself, are all for a single region identity. Although one thing preventing this from happening in DC-Bmore and not in NY-Philly is that DC is the capital and therefore must remain distinct in some sense. But still, given that there is a very strong movement in favor of merging DC and Bmore (granted there's a strong opposition as well) and still they are seen as being very distinct, my guess is that NYC and Philly will remain their own until so far into the future that they are far beyond recognition by us anyway.

I did read an article in the NY Times a few months back, however, that declared Philly the sixth bourough because so many were moving there and actually commuting to Manhattan. Even I, who has very little connection to Philly, saw how offensive the article must have been to Philly. I would have ripped it up if it had been my newspaper. But on the bright side, Philly wasn't going down without a fight, and the article mentioned how Philly was welcoming these immigrants and trying hard to "convert" them into Philadelphians. So, good luck to Philly.

metro areas can't be based solely on commuting patterns. in that case, you can stretch the argument even farther and say baltimore or washington dc are joining the nyc metro because there is an ever increasing amount of people that commute from maryland to new york.

in my opinion, a metro area is definied by it's economic influence on the surrounding areas. where is the center of business for a given suburb? what major city is the center of business for shopping, entertainment, etc? what place is the hub where products are distributed out into the area?

^^ I don't know why people find it so hard imagine the two merging and why it is even so bad. NYC will remain NYC and Philly will remain Philly. It would be better to group the two areas together, if there is a strong link between the two economically and in terms of commuting patterns.

I think the Census would still classify the two as two different MSA's (like Philadelphia-Camden MSA and New York MSA etc), but they would share CMSA, much like DC and Baltimore now. Those two areas have always remain distinct from one another, AND AGAIN, I repeat, the two DO NOT share any TV stations. However, you'll will find towns like Columbia or Annapolis that have both Baltimore and DC stations on their cable lineup. The same goes for radio stations, newspapers (Washington Post and Baltimore Sun) and sports teams. The only mass transit they really share is MARC and a few buses going between the cities. The two are distinct, someone from Baltimore isn't going to say, "I'm from DC", lol.

The only reason I think the census put the two together is because of the commuting patterns between the MSA's and the fact that the two share many of the same suburbs, somewhat like Philly and NY now, but much further away, and although 100 miles maybe far to us now, 35 miles use to be far for people to commute.

Uh- it's never gonna happen... Even if the metros were literally touching and there was a single one way street seperating the two, they would never become one. Philly doesn't like NY much and NY kinda doesn't care about Philly. If the horrendous thing ever took place it would be billions of years from now right before the destruction of the earth.

jesus! who the hell commutes from maryland to new york?

I don't think it makes a difference what CSA Philly's in. In reality, it's not in the same metro as NY. Not now, and I doubt any time soon.

I think the Census would still classify the two as two different MSA's (like Philadelphia-Camden MSA and New York MSA etc), but they would share CMSA, much like DC and Baltimore now.

philly and new york city are their own cmsa's already.

^ I meant in the future. I know right now, it would be awkard to combine the two right now, with them being so far, but in time the area between the two will continue to grow and then blur, much like DC and Baltimore now.

Speaking of CMSA, doesn't New York CMSA now include parts of Pennsylvania?

^^ Yeah... Pike and Monroe counties in PA are now part of the New York CMSA. They are nowhere near Philly though, they are in the very Northeasternmost corner of PA.... they are alos the two counties with the longest commute in the country.

I say no because the closer they get together, the more Philly will be overshadowed and Im seriously going to hate that.

Well, I agree that it's not just commuting patterns. People in the DC area go to BWI to get a flight and some from B'more have to go to Natl. I listen to B'more radio stations to somewhat double my options, if I'm looking to buy an item, and a place near my home doesn't have it, if I want it enough going to B'more quickly, is possible. Going to party in B'more for a change, having friends and co workers i see every day from b'more, i may need a plumber or some other service, and sometimes it may be a guy out of near that area or someone that serves both metros. Sure there's the MARC, but there wouldn't be horrific traffic during rush hours between the two cities if they weren't merged. There are a lot of subtle things a some blunt things, but to fully merge some of these have to exist.

And again, it doesn't mean anything at all if you places aren't alike, not everything revolves around how alike the cities are, IMO it's good if the two prospective merging cities are distinct.

Philly would be overshadowed, but in the grand scheme of things, Philly would maintain its status and stay very similar to what it is now, DC and B'more haven't really homogenized so they're seen as the same at all.

no no no!

why are people fascinated with these NY overtaking parts of PA polls? If people who live in Baltimore generally don't feel connected to DC which is 35 miles south why would anyone from NY or Philly have any connection at all.

These will always be two seperate cities.

I guess it depends on what you mean by merge - whether in an official sense or a realistic sense. I don't understand why sharing TV stations has risen to such a high priority issue in this matter, but just for the record, Baltimore and Washington DO share TV stations. I grew up in North Baltimore and watched DC stations all the time. Unless of course, by share you mean there is only one station for the whole region, but I did watch DC's NBC, ABC, CBS, etc. and therefore was sharing them with DC.

But commuting patterns are far more important than I think we are giving them credit for. In fact, as far as the US Census Bureau is concerned, it is the only factor. Once 25 percent of the working population of two regions lives in one region and works in another, then the US Census Bureau considers them as one region. There was an article on this subject in the Baltimore Sun a few years ago stating that this will most likely be the case by the next census. Once this 25 percent level has been reached, the Census Bureau will no longer distinguish between Bmore and DC. Nevertheless, Bmore and DC will still be, in nearly everyone's eyes, two different cities. The same can be applied to Philly and NYC, I suppose.

^ Yeah that's what I meant, there is no one NBC, CBS, ABC, etc, for the two combined, but separate stations, like WRC-4 in DC and WBAL-11 in Baltimore, unlike a station like WRAL-5, which serves Raleigh AND Durham. Now, in places where you could once receive both stations like my cousin's apartment in P.G. County, the cable company is dropping the Baltimore stations to "protect" the DC stations from loosing viewers. So in other words, people there won't know what's really going on and feel even more disconnected to the city, b/c they will not get Baltimore news. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the Baltimore Sun has any news stands in DC.

I think the same would be true for Philly and NY, they wouldn't loose their identities, because they are already separate markets and media outlets would loose tons of $$$ if the two literally "combined" everything, like TV stations and newspapers etc, so you don't really have to worry about that.

CMSA and MSA are just definitions used by the US Census, and they can change over time, but its not going to have too much of an affect on people. The US Census may come up with another definition, for these so called Megalopolis, like the Bowash, since many books and references are now referring to them as that. It doesn't mean, Bostonians and New Yorkers are going to start calling themselves Washingtonians, because they are "grouped" together, lol.

I will say this once and for all :We have no plans to ever merge with New York. why anyone would think that has a remotely legitimate chance in happening is beyond me. NY and Phila are two totally distinct metros with their own flavor and "culture", history, etc.... Two totally different animals. Asking Phila to merge w/new york is like asking isreal to merge with palestine. ok, maybe not to that extreme, but you get the point. Anyway.....

So, I think it's pretty much decided. Philadelphia will never be absorbed by New York. My guess is that over time, assuming both cities exist that far into the future, having a more interconnected identity is inevitable. They most likely will touch. There will most likely be extensive cultural diffusion between the two. But each will react to the changes differently, thus solidifying each's own identity.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the Baltimore Sun has any news stands in DC.


I can't say for certain if there are or not. But I do know that they just started giving away issues of the Sun at University of Maryland in an attempt to expand readship. Maybe they'll move into DC soon enough.

They have suns in union station. But anyway, two cities having anything alike have nothing at all to do with it. Some of you all are missing the point. Merging from a census standpoint, doesn't mean the cities are the same. No one is saying that Philly would be the same as NYC, everyone knows the distinctness in flavor and culture, it's one thing if you don't want to just b/c the overshadowing aspect so to speak, when it's NYC-Philly, but it's another thing to say that the cities are different, b/c everyone knows it, and it really doesn't matter.

And I don't think it's in the forseeable future that it would happen btw.

The battleground for this controversy is the Garden State. How far south in NJ will get gobbled up by NYC??

^ Probably the whole state.

I think Trenton is considered part of the New York metro..... eventhough it is about 20 minutes form the city limits of Philly.

^^ Sweetkisses, the whole state? I'm sorry but nooooooo way. South Jersey is and will always be Philly territory. No question. NY can gobble up all of North and even Central Jersey for all I (and Philly) am considered, but once it moves into South Jersey... its war.

I think Trenton is considered part of the New York metro..... eventhough it is about 20 minutes form the city limits of Philly.

trenton is it's own msa, and part of the philly cmsa.

^^ Sweetkisses, the whole state? I'm sorry but nooooooo way. South Jersey is and will always be Philly territory. No question. NY can gobble up all of North and even Central Jersey for all I (and Philly) am considered, but once it moves into South Jersey... its war.
lol. I was being sarcastic:)

^^ Sweetkisses, the whole state? I'm sorry but nooooooo way. South Jersey is and will always be Philly territory. No question. NY can gobble up all of North and even Central Jersey for all I (and Philly) am considered, but once it moves into South Jersey... its war.

Boy, finally somebody agrees with me on the "Turnpike War"!!! I told you it was going to be a war between the two cities once NYC tries to take over the whole state of NJ, and Joe-Something thought I was crazy! By the way, it's bad enough that NYC had to take Mercer County and parts of Ocean County and claim it as their territory, when both counties don't have anything to do with NYC other than the fact that they both get NYC and Phila TV stations.

Can we just fight about it already lol!

I say we split up NJ, & give the north & central (exlcuding Mercer) Nj to NY. South NJ & mercer County will be PA. Sorry if I offended any New Jerseyans.

Eventually....

I don't see it happening for a very long time. Although, New York did steal Mercer County from Philly's CMSA. But I don't think it will take Bucks or Philly counties for at least another generation.

No Philly will never be a part of the NYC metro. Even if maps signify the complete merger ten years from now it would just be two cities whose environs touch. New York City would not allow it. Philly is, at its best, mediocre. For New York City to "share" a metro with the jealous little brother is absurd. If it ever did get to that point NYC would chew up Philly, spit out the bones and build a cage for its citizens. It is already happening. As housing prices go up more and more people move west towards PA to save money and stay within shooting distance of NYC. More and more people are moving west but working east. It's not all bad for Philly though. People will spend their large NYC incomes in their suburban Philly hometowns (primarily east of the delaware)

No Philly will never be a part of the NYC metro. Even if maps signify the complete merger ten years from now it would just be two cities whose environs touch. New York City would not allow it. Philly is, at its best, mediocre. For New York City to "share" a metro with the jealous little brother is absurd. If it ever did get to that point NYC would chew up Philly, spit out the bones and build a cage for its citizens. It is already happening. As housing prices go up more and more people move west towards PA to save money and stay within shooting distance of NYC. More and more people are moving west but working east. It's not all bad for Philly though. People will spend their large NYC incomes in their suburban Philly hometowns (primarily east of the delaware)


Yo Buddy! What is your beef with Philadelphia? Did someone from Philly sleep with your girl? Philadelphia is the real-deal...a true urban American city, not some over inflated place where people who feel small about themselves need to gravitate towards. :weirdo:

edit

In response to EBerger's message I will say this. Philly was good to me, but the people I worked with (Philadelphians) had this constant tendency to run down New York City or any other city that was not Philadelphia. What was funny is that none of them even knew I was from the NYC area which made me think- they have major issues with this city. Now I have moved back to the NYC area and I realize people here really could care less about Philly. Philadelphia just always seemed like the jealous little brother. I will, to Philly's credit say that there are some truly beautiful and memorable areas, but my coworkers came across very insecure when discussing their city of origin. I apologize for painting all Philadelphians with such a broad brush. Maybe it was just those I worked with. Point taken EBerger.

Okay, didn't mean to sound so harsh...we Philadelphians tend to get defensive. NYC is great - there is no denying that, but there are plenty of people who enjoy philly for what is and what it will become.

God I hope not. You'd have the same mess we have down here.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think the Baltimore Sun has any news stands in DC.
You stand corrected! There are Baltimore Sun Paper Boxes all over downtown DC. They are near every metro station and at other high traffic areas. In addition, all the stores downtown sell the Sun. I purchase my copy inside the CVS at Pennsylvania Avenue and 14th St - 2 blocks from the White House!

You urban people may not be aware of this fact, but according to the federal rules that were in place, the Washington/Baltimore CMSA should have been named the Baltimore/Washington CMSA because Baltimore is the largest city in population.

It took an act of Congress to change the name.

Apparently Washingtonians were appalled at taking second billing. So they did what they always do when the rules don't suit them, they changed them.

Yup, because DC is much much more significant a city than B'more.

Philly has an even less chance of joining the NYC metro than Hartford does.

Yup, because DC is much much more significant a city than B'more.

A typical Washingtonian response no doubt - ignoring the point of the argument ;) Also, leave it to DC to spend time and money fixing something like that instead of something that matters. Did you feel a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day? But c'mon man, you took all our sports teams, cut us a break. Give us back the Wiz.

Also, New Yorkers seem to have this idea that because you think about them and they don't think about you, they are therefore somehow better than you. While this holds some water, it's also clouded by the fact that when you have a city full of jerks, you have your hands full already. It doesn't realy give you time to worry about anyone else ;)

No Philly will never be a part of the NYC metro. Even if maps signify the complete merger ten years from now it would just be two cities whose environs touch. New York City would not allow it. Philly is, at its best, mediocre. For New York City to "share" a metro with the jealous little brother is absurd. If it ever did get to that point NYC would chew up Philly, spit out the bones and build a cage for its citizens. It is already happening. As housing prices go up more and more people move west towards PA to save money and stay within shooting distance of NYC. More and more people are moving west but working east. It's not all bad for Philly though. People will spend their large NYC incomes in their suburban Philly hometowns (primarily east of the delaware)

:down:

Typical new york asshole fantasizing about a make believe little brother. Get over yourself.

jesus! who the hell commutes from maryland to new york?
Senator Hillary Clinton?

Philly is, at its best, mediocre. For New York City to "share" a metro with the jealous little brother is absurd. If it ever did get to that point NYC would chew up Philly, spit out the bones and build a cage for its citizens. It is already happening. As housing prices go up more and more people move west towards PA to save money and stay within shooting distance of NYC. More and more people are moving west but working east. It's not all bad for Philly though. People will spend their large NYC incomes in their suburban Philly hometowns (primarily east of the delaware)


What the hell are you babbling about? Metro Philadelphia is and always has been among the 5 biggest metro economies in the usa, without an ounce of help from NYC thank you.

Sorry but this has to be said. The only people who think NYC is such a great place to live are people from NYC. You people are so disillusioned. The quality of living in Pa. and South Jersey is so much better than up in that overdeveloped concrete disaster. Please do us a favor and stay out of Philly,stay out of Pa. and stay out of south jersey.

Peter Smth, I was responding to that tripe that wada guy was spouting,

"Apparently Washingtonians were appalled at taking second billing. So they did what they always do when the rules don't suit them, they changed them."

in bitterness that the CSA is DC-B'more area, how come B'more people are allowed to talk all the shit they want, and then when a DC person simply responds, they're cold, rude, jerks, typical of that shitty political corruption obsessed town. Just like "oh, haha DC is a suburb of B'more", population, that is all that B'more has over DC. And being that that is the case, B'more is more important than Atlanta, Miami and Boston too, do you see how ridiculous this sounds? DC is more important than B'more, is this inaccurate? Does it make sense to change SF-Oakland-San Jose area?

All your sports teams?

Even if that is the case, why would it make sense to give sports teams to B'more, a city where less profit will be made and a smaller market will watch, and we didn't take your Wizards, if you want to play that stupid little game, you took them from Chicago. Capitals were created in DC, the Redskins we got from Boston in the 30s.

I wouldn't call NYC a overdeveloped concrete disaster, it's got a lot of room to improve, and if you bring South Jersey and the rest of the metro in it, I'd take metro NYC over metro Philly anytime.

Let this thread die. You people let your egos get the best of you. Just let it go.

Peter Smth, I was responding to that tripe that wada guy was spouting,

"Apparently Washingtonians were appalled at taking second billing. So they did what they always do when the rules don't suit them, they changed them."

in bitterness that the CSA is DC-B'more area, how come B'more people are allowed to talk all the shit they want, and then when a DC person simply responds, they're cold, rude, jerks, typical of that shitty political corruption obsessed town. Just like "oh, haha DC is a suburb of B'more", population, that is all that B'more has over DC. And being that that is the case, B'more is more important than Atlanta, Miami and Boston too, do you see how ridiculous this sounds? DC is more important than B'more, is this inaccurate? Does it make sense to change SF-Oakland-San Jose area?

All your sports teams?

Even if that is the case, why would it make sense to give sports teams to B'more, a city where less profit will be made and a smaller market will watch, and we didn't take your Wizards, if you want to play that stupid little game, you took them from Chicago. Capitals were created in DC, the Redskins we got from Boston in the 30s.

I wouldn't call NYC a overdeveloped concrete disaster, it's got a lot of room to improve, and if you bring South Jersey and the rest of the metro in it, I'd take metro NYC over metro Philly anytime.

Haha. Relax. I was joking. I apologize for creating such a ruckus. I think the argument about the metro name billing comes from the fact that although DC is a more prominent city, prominence has nothing to do with the name of a metro. A metro is named with the most populous city first, and each subsequent city after it. This is the case with other metros in the country, so it makes sense that it would be the case in the Washington-Baltimore metro as well, regardless of the fact that DC is the capital and more prominent than Baltimore. My comment, although intended to be a joke, was more directed at the Washington politicians who wasted time and money switching the names around when they could have been doing something else. But nevertheless, I completely understand where you're coming from. DC does get a bad rap because of its position as the capital. And regardless of what people think of this, DC is a great, world-class city.

I still would like the Wizards back though.....

Yeah that's cool.

The battleground for this controversy is the Garden State. How far south in NJ will get gobbled up by NYC??

Speaking as a South Jersey resident, I will tell you that this is the Philly metro, is very entrenched as part of the Philly metro, and is not interested in allegiance to a city that is 90 miles away, when Philadelphia is right across the Delaware!! And more South Jerseyans have ties to Philly, than NYC. Not only that we're mostly Eagles and Flyers fans too!

I'll succinctly inject my thoughts on all this: I like each individual metro area for what it has to offer and that's how it is. Take it or leave it... :)

Sorry but this has to be said. The only people who think NYC is such a great place to live are people from NYC. You people are so disillusioned. The quality of living in Pa. and South Jersey is so much better than up in that overdeveloped concrete disaster. Please do us a favor and stay out of Philly,stay out of Pa. and stay out of south jersey.

Too late, New York Metro has already taken over the Poconos. The CMSA includes NY-NJ-CT-PA. It's only a matter of time until the two are literally touching each other, but I don't understand why people make a big deal out of it. Philly will always be Philly and New York will always be New York.

I still would like the Wizards back though.....

Forget the wizzards.. I want the Bullets back!

I always hated that name change

Philadelphia the city of brotherly love has never been NYC or any other cities little brother.. Philadelphia is a country all by itself.. Now being born and raised in Philadelphia there's always been a rivalry with NYC.. Philadelphia will not benefit by being part of NYC metro.. Two founding cities of this great nation have alot of history together as distinct cities.. Philadelphia stands on Philadelphia never mind what the media and crazy people think.. Also this isn't the NY area, New York has there area and Philadelphia has it's own area, that's the way it will be always..

As I posted here:

http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/showthread.php?t=13542

The cities of New York and Philadelphia are indeed less than 60 miles apart.

Using the Pennsylvania National Guard in Far Northeast Philadelphia
http://www.paguard.com/html/unit_locations.html (2700 Southampton Road)

and the Gateway Cathedral Church in Staten Island
http://www.gatewaycathedral.org/ (200 Boscombe Avenue)

on mapquest, randmcnally, etc., will show you they are indeed less than 60 miles apart!!! And that is less than 60 miles apart the quickest driving route; of course they are even less than that on the shortest driving route, but that route definitely wouldn't take an hour :)

Finally, Center city Philadelphia and Manhattan (the downtowns) are definitely less than 100 miles apart for the quickest driving route (you may be able to argue less than 95 from a boundary of center city and a boundary of lower Manhattan), although using randmcnally's "shortest" option shows they are less than 90 apart for the shortest driving route.

2 Big Cities very close to one another!!! Now we know why New Jersey has the highest population density :)

That's a very interesting question you post about if the metros overlap; the cities themselves are awfully close to one another...

If they really are that close, that's cool, but Philly and NYC definitely feel more than 60 miles apart.

It's going to happen sometime in the future.

It will happen. Think about it, more than 100 years ago, a distance of 30 miles would seem like quite a trip. Now, no one thinks anything of it.

There will be some type of transit system in comming years, probably in faster and more efficient HSR, that will continue to make regions of this country seem smaller, and more connected. I don't know what the time frame will be, but IMO, it is inevitable. Philly and NY will be even more interconnected. However, they will maintain their unique personalities.

There already are areas in Central Jersey in particular, where the interconnection has already occurred. But this does not have an impact on Philly retaining its own identity and own region imo.

I don't think there would be any benefit to Philly joining NYC. Cities by nature are distinct places. I do think that they would both benefit (as would the entire Northeast corridor) by developing comprehensive infrastructure improvments that compliment each other. Things such as improved intercity rail service, pollution controls, environmental cleanups. etc. The South and West continue to draw population away. The Northeast can compete by capitalizing on an asset that only it has...the sheer number of urban areas packed into a narrow coastal strip.

Id rather visit NYC but id love to live in Philly!

MasonsInquiries,

You posted two conditions for Philly to be within New York's metro. One was to be within 50 miles. Philly is indeed within 50 miles from New York strictly speaking (Far Northeast Philly to Staten Island). There are websites (http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/java/lat-long.htm for instance) that will calculate the straight line "as the crow flies" distance, and they show the boundaries are less than 50 miles apart.

City Hall Philadelphia and City Hall Manhattan are around 80 miles "as the crow flies".

By the way, ""downtown"" Philly and "downtown"" Manhattan are not 2 hours apart. Maybe 1 hour and 45, shorter ???? but definitely not 2.

It's amazing how close these cities are.

Central New York to Central Phila.

from Google (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=new+york&daddr=philadelphia)

Driving:
101 miles
1 hr 51 min


Route 1 at Woodhaven Dr, NE Phila to Page Ave at Boscombe Ave, Staten Isl.

from Google (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=new+york&daddr=philadelphia)

Driving:
61.3 miles
1 hr 9 min

This all sounds like a DC-vs-Bmore-vs-Philly-vs-NY type of thread.
Let me sum this whole thing up people...

NY is so big, it could actually gobble up the Philly metro, but only those in Philly would care. Know why? Philly is a large city on its own. Being linked to NY would diminish its independence in a weird way to people in Philly. Especially since many non-northeastern cities with huge populations have sq milage the size of small states (Phoenix is over 250 sq miles and almost 2million people, Baltimore is 90 sq miles with 680k people)

DC and Bmore have a different problem. DC is the captiol of the richest and most powerful country. DC is supposed to be the example. Even though Bmore is larger, DC gets funding for all sorts of goodies.

You can't justify the size of a subway system in DC with 580k in population. But with high paying gov't jobs and attaching itself to a bigger brother to the north...well you could justify the metro, the ICC, the Olympics, new stadiums situated not in DC, but further north, Maglev, Ft Meade job placements, and much much more.

But guess what?
DC gets billing over cities like NY, Chi and LA on many issues as well.

While I agree somewhat, I don't know why people make it sound negative that DC, the capitol, shouldn't get priority over places. DC's population is almost irrelevant, its subway is appropriate for being the US capitol, with so many employees, a major tourist destination, and being the center of a large MSA, etc. and it's a federal district anyway, it belongs to the nation.

And subway size is relative, maybe cities the size of DC should have a large metro system, maybe other cities SHOULD have at least half as comprehensive a metro system as dc's, boston does and it's a small city too.

Why B'more, despite being bigger in population, would be getting nearly as much federal funding is beyond me, considering how DC is unquestionably more significant in ways and is largely responsible for B'more's prosperity. It's like saying San Jose should be getting more funding than SF.

You can't separate the fact that it is the capitol, being 500 something k can't be applied for DC like it would for other places.

Maglev between DC and B'more would be great, but I would love to see it expanded from at least say ATL to Boston in the future.

I also think that while B'more is a great city and has a lot of history and significance to the country, b'more added to dc is more alike MKE added to Chicago, except much much closer, DC and B'more have been connected in a relatively significant way for a while. Philly with a higher status than B'more, I think there's more to get used to for Philly people, losing the independence, etc., than for B'more or MKE, that's why I feel like it's a little different for NYC and Philly also.

NYC and Philly to merge is something to be took seriously. These two cities although very close...are very different. The Philadelphia-Wilimington-South Jersey is one world...and the New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island-Connecticut is another world. It's two worlds near each other. I live in Philly...and I rarely hear anything from New York...same thing vice versa. Philadelphia is the premier focus of the entire Delaware Valley, we all are Eagles/Sixers/Flyers/Phillies fans, we all hear news from Philadelphia, we all have the same cable, and we all are "Philadelphians". Philadelphia IS THE SHIT in the Delaware Valley...and New York to us is just another big city nearby that we like to visit, that's all. Same thing vice versa. I don't have an opinion in these two metros merging...but I prefer each metro to go its own way...and NYC and Philly merging is bizzare to me.

NYC and Philly to merge is something to be took seriously. These two cities although very close...are very different. The Philadelphia-Wilimington-South Jersey is one world...and the New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island-Connecticut is another world. It's two worlds near each other. I live in Philly...and I rarely hear anything from New York...same thing vice versa. Philadelphia is the premier focus of the entire Delaware Valley, we all are Eagles/Sixers/Flyers/Phillies fans, we all hear news from Philadelphia, we all have the same cable, and we all are "Philadelphians". Philadelphia IS THE SHIT in the Delaware Valley...and New York to us is just another big city nearby that we like to visit, that's all. Same thing vice versa. I don't have an opinion in these two metros merging...but I prefer each metro to go its own way...and NYC and Philly merging is bizzare to me.

well said

NYC and Philly to merge is something to be took seriously. These two cities although very close...are very different. The Philadelphia-Wilimington-South Jersey is one world...and the New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island-Connecticut is another world. It's two worlds near each other. I live in Philly...and I rarely hear anything from New York...same thing vice versa. Philadelphia is the premier focus of the entire Delaware Valley, we all are Eagles/Sixers/Flyers/Phillies fans, we all hear news from Philadelphia, we all have the same cable, and we all are "Philadelphians". Philadelphia IS THE SHIT in the Delaware Valley...and New York to us is just another big city nearby that we like to visit, that's all. Same thing vice versa. I don't have an opinion in these two metros merging...but I prefer each metro to go its own way...and NYC and Philly merging is bizzare to me.

That about sums it up folks. The Delaware Valley is a distinctly Philadelphia region. In fact, your comment about two different worlds is dead on. There's also a misconception that all of NJ is tied to NY somehow. Wrong, very wrong. Anywhere south of Trenton, you're in the Philly metro area basically, and that is approximately half the state.

Is Trenton considered part of NY or it's own region?

Trenton is one of those 'tweener' areas, like Ocean County is towards the shore, where you have a much stronger NY influence in Northern Ocean County, and it transitions towards Philadelphia in Southern Ocean County, like Long Beach Island. You actually get the Philadelphia stations clearer around Trenton than you would the NY stations, simply because of proximity, Trenton is closer to Philly than NY. Again, as you travel northward in Mercer County, like up towards Princeton, it transitions into a much stronger NY flavor, however. Tweener.

90 miles (isn't that the distance between NYC and Philly?) is an interesting one in the sense that it is both far enough to keep the two cities apart, yet close enough for them to have a real connection with each other.

Closer distances (SF-Oak, Mpls-StP, Dal-FW) end up creating one metro area. Slightly longer distances (i.e. 45 miles) tend to give considerable suburban overlap between two separate cities, creating a place that seems to work as two separate metro areas or one larger one at the same time. The best example here, of course, is Balt-Wash.

In that 90 miles range, three major examples come to mind:

NY-Phil
Chi-Milw
LA-SD

IMHO, both Chi-Milw and LA-SD give every indication of metro areas joining together. From comments I see here, I get the sense that isn't necessarily the case for NY-Phil.

I'd be curious to know from New Yorkers and Philadelphians who think their cities will never grow together or be seen in a combined way: what dynamics differ in the NY-Phil relationship from the Chi-Milw and LA-SD ones?

90 miles (isn't that the distance between NYC and Philly?) is an interesting one in the sense that it is both far enough to keep the two cities apart, yet close enough for them to have a real connection with each other.

Closer distances (SF-Oak, Mpls-StP, Dal-FW) end up creating one metro area. Slightly longer distances (i.e. 45 miles) tend to give considerable suburban overlap between two separate cities, creating a place that seems to work as two separate metro areas or one larger one at the same time. The best example here, of course, is Balt-Wash.

In that 90 miles range, three major examples come to mind:

NY-Phil
Chi-Milw
LA-SD

IMHO, both Chi-Milw and LA-SD give every indication of metro areas joining together. From comments I see here, I get the sense that isn't necessarily the case for NY-Phil.

I'd be curious to know from New Yorkers and Philadelphians who think their cities will never grow together or be seen in a combined way: what dynamics differ in the NY-Phil relationship from the Chi-Milw and LA-SD ones?

Haven't Milwaukee and San Diego been their own metros for long enough that they have their own identity? I would think natives of Milwaukee or San Diego don't take too kindly at the notion they should join some other area, and lose their own unique identity. This strikes me as being the brainchild of somebody from a larger metro, so that they can pad their own numbers.

Let's also take into account the historical significance of Philadelphia in this country, and how long it has had its own identity. You're talking about large East Coast cities, that, while close enough, have existed as their own separate space for centuries now. Philadelphia in and of itself, is one of the largest markets in the country. Even though we may be in proximity to NY, the culture is quite different than NY. We'll resist this merge idea, just like we resisted the British in 1776!.... :cheers:

I'm also startin' to think Philadelphia is too big for New York to gobble up. You're talkin' about a metro of 6.2 million residents (6th largest CMSA in the U.S.) I know New York is much bigger but New York just can't gobble up another large metro with a different culture. There's no way...New York takin' Hartford or Newark as a metro is clearly reasonable...but not Philadelphia. Philadelphia is distinct to itself and large enough to have its own distinct identity even if it's less than 100 miles from New York.

I agree with sjersey, that's what I said earlier, philly is a huge city, I don't think it's impossible to get merged, but it's a lot bigger than milwaukee is to chicago, even if it is massive nyc that its being gobbled up by.

I mean with dallas-ft. worth which is 30 miles away from dallas, it's not like a sf-oakland or a minny-st. paul, and others mentioned, there's more connection plain and simple, it's not just commuters, it's more culture, organizations and services and it's deeper embedded that their area is close to anothers, it's for this reason, even though people don't like the "DC-Balt." csa, it exists.

So even though looking at commuting patterns, which still aren't all that close to warrant a merge, it'll be more than that before there's actually a merged metro. I mean a merged metro can exist, DC and B'more are two cities who have had their metros merge and were significant and had enough culture and history long before that happened.

edsg25,

Here are the distances:

Shortest driving distance between Philadelphia and New York
(aka Far Northeast Philly to Staten Island):

just under 60 miles

Shortest straight line distance (aka as the crow flies):

just under 50 miles

Shortest driving distance between the downtowns:
(aka City Hall in Center City Philly to City Hall in lower Manhattan)

under 100 miles

Shortest straight line distance between the downtowns (as the crow flies):

around 80 miles

http://www.wcrl.ars.usda.gov/cec/java/lat-long.htm helps you see the straight line distances, while mapquest.com and randmcnally.com helps you see the driving distance

Philadelphia is the 6th largest CSA , but is also too the 4th largest metropolitan area in the country (by the official MSA).

Philadelphia is huge and dense in my book. My favorite Philadelphia stat is even though it's the 5th largest city by population, every other city between the 1st largest and the 13th largest has a bigger land area (aka square miles). You have to hit #14, San Francisco, to find a city with a smaller land area.

Philadelphia will always be it's own city, but you are seeing the two metro areas "contribute" to one another with commuting, visiting, etc. Heck, I live just on the other side of one of Philadelphia's borders and can work in Princeton, NJ., easy 35 minute commute on Route 1.

forget as crows flies. look how close a grand rapids is from chicago for instance.

The census bureau will need to come up with a new designation for major CMSAs that are becoming joined together. Super Adjoined Metropolitan Areas (SAMAs)???

I'm not talking about Dallas-Fort Worth, here. I mean combos like NYC-Phy, SD-LA, and MKE-CHI. These MSA are greater than 85 miles apart, yet it is quite clear to anyone in these areas that they are already merged together. Clearly thousands are commuting between these cities each day to work or living halfway in between and commuting in opposite directions (couples).

It's probably not a well known fact that the Interstate between MKE/CHI is 6 lanes (since the late '60s) and is being planned to expand to 8 lanes soon. Nationally, not many stretches of i-State are that wide between major MSAs.

Having said all of that, that the identity of each organic MSA will remain preserved due to engrained culture, media, towns, suburbs, and family. Afterall, look at the vast differences between different areas of existing CMSAs.

The answer is, no matter how close these two cities are.,Philly will always be its own city. End of discussion.This thread has gone on far longer than it should have.