View Full Version : Skyscrapers in european cities:yes or no?


Col
October 18th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Should skylines in big european cities look like in big cites of north america and asia?Are Europeans too much conservative?



"Earth has not anything to show more fair," Wordsworth wrote of London two centuries ago. But the "ships, towers, domes, theaters and temples" that he admired from Westminster Bridge have long since given way to a more tawdry view, shaped as much by postwar bad taste as by wartime bombing. Now, with a panache rarely seen here, London has concluded that it is time to repair its battered skyline.

In doing so, it is looking quite literally for a new profile, one with shapely skyscrapers designed by big-name architects proclaiming London's determination to be known as an innovative 21st-century metropolis. By 2010, not just the majestic dome of St. Paul's Cathedral but also a new forest of glass and steel will symbolize the ancient heart of London. After centuries of sprawling growth, the city is finally reaching for the sky.

A number of Londoners are worried. They already fear that the city is losing its historic identity. For them, the ideal solution would be to tear down the concrete office towers thrown up in the 1960's and 70's. Instead, the strategy is to surround the eyesores with stylish new high-rises in the hope of hiding bad architecture behind good architecture. But even this approach is perilous: skyscrapers that look daring today have a way of looking dated tomorrow.

Ken Livingstone, who in 2000 became the first elected mayor of London, seems bent on taming the traditional free-to-do-as-they-will developers with some old-fashioned urban planning, but he also believes that central London needs greater population density. And to achieve this, he has endorsed the principle of building upward.

Architects could not be happier. Until recently, while they were designing skyscrapers from New York to Shanghai, their work in London was largely revamping existing buildings like the Royal Opera House and the British Museum. (The Laban dance center in southeast London, designed by Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron, is a rare new cultural structure.) This spring, with the completion of a striking 40-floor high-rise in the heart of the city's financial center, Norman Foster has come to personify the new policy.

He is hardly alone. For the first time since Christopher Wren rebuilt old London after the Great Fire of 1666, British and foreign architects alike have the power to transform the city's look. Mr. Livingstone's chief adviser on architecture and urbanism is a renowned architect, Richard Rogers. And while developers are driving the rush to build, it is the prestige of the architects that is making this possible.

The City of London, the so-called Square Mile east of St. Paul's Cathedral that serves as Europe's financial capital, is the focal point of new growth. "New City Architecture," an exhibition that is displaying models of 21 of the "finest" completed and planned projects in the City, picked five by Mr. Foster and three by Mr. Rogers.

Not all are tall. Mr. Rogers's Lloyd's Register of Shipping headquarters, with its glass and piping exterior echoing the Georges Pompidou Center in Paris, which he designed in the 1970's with Renzo Piano, does not break the skyline. Mr. Foster's Millennium Bridge, which he designed with the sculptor Anthony Caro, is elegant but also usefully links St. Paul's Cathedral to the Tate Modern, a former power plant converted by Herzog & de Meuron.

However, it is Mr. Foster's new 600-foot-high building at 30 St. Mary Axe, which resembles a squat missile and has been nicknamed the Gherkin, that has fueled the push upward. Among other high-rises planned or near completion are Mr. Rogers's tall, slim triangular building for the British Land Company, Nicholas Grimshaw's 43-floor Minerva Building and Kohn Pedersen Fox's Heron Tower.

Robert Finch, the lord mayor of the City of London, definitely approves. "As a property lawyer who has been working in the City for over 30 years," he said in welcoming the "New City Architecture" exhibition, "I am delighted to see the dynamic ways in which the City has been able to make the most of the land available to promote iconic buildings which have become landmarks not only in London but across the world."

But St. Paul's Cathedral, which survived the blitz, cannot be overlooked. Until 1950, no building was permitted to rise above its 300-foot-high dome. But then rectangular towers began appearing, and even the front view of the cathedral was interrupted by an ugly office building. In 1987, Prince Charles lamented, "In the space of a mere 15 years, the planners, architects and developers of the City wrecked London's skyline and desecrated the dome of St. Paul's."

Today, planners' permission for new high-rises is linked to preserving sightlines of St. Paul's from different places in London. Sightlines to the Houses of Parliament in Westminster and the Tower of London are also considered important, and their obstruction is the main reason conservation groups like English Heritage and Historic Royal Palaces have tried to block some proposed high-rises. None, however, have been vetoed so far.

Neil Cossons, chairman of English Heritage, said his objection to the 600-foot-high Heron Tower was that "it would fundamentally damage a world-famous view."

John Barnes, conservation director of Historic Royal Palaces, said he feared the new Minerva Building would loom over the Tower of London. And he said he intended to oppose construction of what could become Europe's tallest building, the London Bridge Tower, or Shard of Glass, designed by Mr. Piano.

This 66-floor, 1,016-foot-high building, planned for the south bank of the Thames River, resembles a Gothic spire, broad at its base, then rising to a point. Mr. Piano believes that the Shard of Glass's shape fits into the London skyline and has emphasized its mixed commercial, residential and cultural use, as well as its energy-saving innovations. A public inquiry will nonetheless be held before approval is granted.

Still, architects here are on a roll. One, Ken Shuttleworth, recently proposed a round, 984-foot-high tower nicknamed the Vortex. Wide at the top and bottom and narrow at the waist, it resembles an elongated egg timer.

Whether it will ever built — Mr. Shuttleworth says he is working with a developer — the Vortex shows that architects here are thinking vertically.

While architecture can be a tool for urban regeneration, in one case this year it backfired. The opening of the Tate Modern on Bankside in 2000 immediately raised the quality of life in the run-down borough of Southwark. But when a 20-floor apartment building was planned for a site 150 feet from the museum entrance, the Tate objected. The case went to court, but the developers won.

"It's a sad day for Bankside," Nicholas Serota, the Tate's director, said.

So the drive upward continues unabated. Indeed, just as the high-rises built in the 1980's in Canary Wharf on the eastern periphery of London present a strong profile, it is possible that a concentration of tall buildings in the Square Mile will also provide a visual coherence. But it also seems likely to many that skyscrapers rising in isolation out of this horizontal city will always look out of place.

In the end, though, what most worries traditionalists is that London is losing its character.

"The capital's historic distinctiveness lies at the heart of its success," Mr. Cossons of English Heritage said. "We want developers to reinforce that distinctiveness, not obliterate it. So we will continue to champion the historic buildings, areas and views that make London unique."

He faces a tough battle.

Arpels
October 18th, 2005, 04:01 PM
yes but in the rigth place :yes:

DiggerD21
October 18th, 2005, 05:32 PM
In my opinion Skyscrapers shouldn't be built in historical areas of european cities (the reason why I didn't like London so much on my first visit), but outside of these areas: yes, why not? There are several european cities whose church towers dominate the city centre skyline and makes them unique. These cities should preserve that.

nick_taylor
October 18th, 2005, 07:58 PM
^^ I disagree, the skyscrapers going up in London are going up on sites which are currently 1960's concrete tumours or land where nothing exists. LBT, Bishopsgate Tower, Broadgate Tower, the Southbank, Stratford, Vauxhall, Paddington and Croydon towers are all replacing buildings built post-WW2 which are of no architectural merit. Should London be building all these clusters? Well why not, not many cities have an urban area where clusters come out and London is a multi-nodal city afterall and half a dozen clusters makes sense.

I like the emergence of a combination of a historical and modern skyline side by side. I don't want historical architecture to be destroyed or dominated by such towers though.

samsonyuen
October 18th, 2005, 09:59 PM
I like how Europe is now, but I don't think skyscrapers, when (as someone else suggested) it's placed in the right places.

DiggerD21
October 19th, 2005, 12:07 AM
^^ I disagree, the skyscrapers going up in London are going up on sites which are currently 1960's concrete tumours or land where nothing exists.

My focus was more on the skyline. No matter how beautyful the skyscrapers are, in my opinion they spoil the beauty of the old buildings, if built right among them.
And please do everything that they will demolish Guy's Tower! The ugliest highrise I've seen live ever!

John-Claude
October 19th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Skyscrapers aren't bad as long as they are built at locations where they don't spoil the historic view and cozy atmosphere of European cities.
I simply cannot imagine a city such as Heidelberg or Milan having skyscrapers. Paris, France, is doing the right thing by allowing an agglomeration of fantastic skyscrapers a bit aside of the city center.

Shodan
October 19th, 2005, 04:36 PM
I wonder if hundreds of years ago people complained about "those damn new huts with their high chimneys" blocking their view on the "historic" quarters of their city. Seriously, get used to it. City profiles change with time, trying to hold on to a single image of a city for all it's worth seems stupid to me.

So, in short: Yes, build more SS' in Europe.

Jonesy55
October 19th, 2005, 05:24 PM
I wonder if hundreds of years ago people complained about "those damn new huts with their high chimneys" blocking their view on the "historic" quarters of their city. Seriously, get used to it. City profiles change with time, trying to hold on to a single image of a city for all it's worth seems stupid to me.

So, in short: Yes, build more SS' in Europe.

So would you like to see the demolition of the Roman Forum or the Tower of London or the Kremlin or to make way for a new tower???

DiggerD21
October 19th, 2005, 07:13 PM
So, in short: Yes, build more SS' in Europe.

But not in the historic city centres. Like John-Claude said, Highrises can spoil the view on the historic city and I agree with him that Paris is doing it right.

We are living in a globalising world with more and more standardisation in every field. Saving historic city centers from highrise districts with no distinctive image is one step to save the image of a city and the historic city centre doesn't loose anything of its touristic value.

Phobos
October 19th, 2005, 08:38 PM
I see no problem if they are built outside the historic districts and this way they don't change the old skyline,but towers everywhere in the city,even if they replace postwar structures is not a good solution because they overshadow the historic buildings.

Zim Flyer
October 20th, 2005, 02:00 PM
I see no problem if they are built outside the historic districts and this way they don't change the old skyline,but towers everywhere in the city,even if they replace postwar structures is not a good solution because they overshadow the historic buildings.

I totally agree.

In London I love the Skyscrapers in Canary Wharf, but don't like them in other parts of London where like you say they overshadow historic buildings.

Troopchina
October 22nd, 2005, 01:29 PM
In my opinion Skyscrapers shouldn't be built in historical areas of european cities (the reason why I didn't like London so much on my first visit), but outside of these areas: yes, why not? There are several european cities whose church towers dominate the city centre skyline and makes them unique. These cities should preserve that.

I agree

Troopchina
October 22nd, 2005, 01:33 PM
I love skyscrapers, but I don't like to see them all over the city, like Hong Kong or Sao Paolo... IMO european cities should keep historical downtowns with just a few skyscraper areas on the outskirts of downtowns

Monkey
October 22nd, 2005, 10:49 PM
I love skyscrapers, but I don't like to see them all over the city, like Hong Kong or Sao Paolo... IMO european cities should keep historical downtowns with just a few skyscraper areas on the outskirts of downtownsI agree. :okay:

gronier
October 23rd, 2005, 02:38 AM
I don't like what they're doing with London. It's loosing its identity.

Monkey
October 24th, 2005, 06:37 PM
I don't like what they're doing with London. It's loosing its identity.No it's not. They are only building skyscrapers on sites of ugly 1960s buildings. London's massive collection of Victorian (and older) buildings is very well preserved and being systematicallly restored and renewed.

jimm
October 25th, 2005, 09:16 AM
for some cities, like frankfurt they look great but for others like paris it doesn't

Whose Homepage
October 25th, 2005, 10:44 AM
I'd hate for European cities to think the number and height of tall buildings has any impact on its value as a city because sad and absurd building decisions would most likely follow.

On the other hand, I don't think that all cities, including smaller ones, should adopt a rigid "no skyscrapers here" attitude. The location, of course, is important, but so is the design. What good is the tallest glassy generic box without character and architectural merit?

Arpels
October 25th, 2005, 12:44 PM
that rigid "no skyscrapers here" could be use in the old historical center's of the big citys too, they have a lot of space around the city to built skrapers!!

Rigadon
October 26th, 2005, 12:56 AM
My focus was more on the skyline. No matter how beautyful the skyscrapers are, in my opinion they spoil the beauty of the old buildings, i
It feel the opposite. I like that about London. In contast as grand and magnificnet as it is I find the lack of a cotempory edge to central Munich depressing. It makes the place seem like it has little dynamism.

I hate old buidlings beign demolished but i dont mind and even quite like them being overshadowed.

gm2263
October 30th, 2005, 04:39 PM
My opinion is that due to their historic character, European cities should preserve their historic quarters that after all, over the years and especially during the biggest part of the 20th century, also became their business centres or are located in close proximity to them.

However, I believe that the model followed in Paris and London to the extent that London's historic character and architecture won't be affected by the construction of 40 and 50 storey towers in the Square Mile as far as constructions of highrises are concerned, is the best.

Very few cities, especially capital ones, are lucky enough to not be in need of excess space, be it commercial or residential. The case of Rome for instance is an exception, since, unlike in the case of most European countries, Milan is the financial centre of Italy and Rome is the historic one. In this case, Rome may be considered "lucky" if somebody is a proponent of lowrise construction.

In my view though, big European cities after many many years of experimentation (which also led to the atrocities of the mid 1060's to the 1970's), and after having gained valuable experience -sometimes through painful trial and error cycles- have adopted the best solution possible: Maintain what's left in their historic cores and create a second centre which incorporates the very best in modern architecture and building technology. It's not just Canary Wharf in London or La Defence in Paris. Places like Levent and Maslak in Istanbul, Maroussi in Athens (albeit lowrise), Pylaia in Thessaloniki (lowrise too), Donau City in Vienna, and some other occasions in a number of other European cities are indicative of this.

So, I believe that for the European cities, building skyscrapers everywhere in NOT the appropriate course of action. Building though in terms of clusters properly supported by transportation and other infrastructure is the best thing to do. This way, the traditional and touristic character of these cities is preserved, while the needs of the contemporary economy that we live in are also served taking place in the proper places and not in a part of the city that has neither the space, not the infrastructure to support them... .

Cymen
January 21st, 2006, 07:31 PM
^^
I agree with you. I think Amsterdam is a very good example of a modern european city, much better as Paris and London since it's smaller. The highrise clusters are far away from the old city centra and all located near "A-locations". The are near a highway, train and metro. This will decrease the usage of cars in and outside the cities. Has enormas advantages, makes the cities a better place to live in and decreases traffic.

blue79
January 23rd, 2006, 02:45 PM
Yes,but not in the historic centers of the cities.

ancov
June 27th, 2006, 01:04 PM
Yes, for example, in Moscow all new skyscrapers growth outside the Garden Ring (the historic centre of the city) .

Troopchina
June 27th, 2006, 02:42 PM
Yes. But only on the outskirts of historical downtowns.

calenzano
June 27th, 2006, 02:46 PM
yes, but outside the historic centers of the cities.

Valia
June 28th, 2006, 10:05 PM
yes, of course :cool:

but no in Old Cities although could be at the new districts if it don't disturb the views of the old places.

skylinearth
June 28th, 2006, 10:33 PM
Yes to the skyscrapers, but I think we must keep the historical centre for sure. London, Paris and many other cities have their historical centre but they also have their business centre (Canary Wharf, La Defence). In Greece skyscrapers must be 10 km away from the Acropolis in Athens, in spectacular areas (Marousi, Elaionas) and in Thessaloniki although there is no Acropolis there is still a historical centre, so Pylaia district the best candidate for skyscrapers.

And of course European cities should not take Hong Kong as an example.

The key is to build skyscrapers in the right placehttp://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Marcus87
July 1st, 2006, 09:16 PM
I think no european city centre should have a skyline like in North America or Asia. It looks beautiful, sure, but I think our historic cities should be preserved. Few of them in right places are ok and look good (London comes to mind). And if they really want to build it so densely, they should make seperate districts for that like La Defencé. It looks cool and it also doesnt mess with historic Paris.

gm2263
July 2nd, 2006, 10:21 AM
Just to add to this discussion, read this story from the "Economist"

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=7001496

London's office market headed down in 1974, 1982, 1990 and 2002. The two most recent tumbles were marked by the completion of well-known skyscrapers: the main Canary Wharf tower in 1991 and 30 St Mary Axe in 2003. Skyscrapers in London take between five and ten years to go from idea to income, and each cycle lasts for some ten years. This makes it “virtually impossible to get the timing right on tall buildings,” according to Peter Damesick of CB Richard Ellis, a property agent.

Perhaps it is this defiance of gravity and the market that makes skyscrapers so alluring and explains why people continue to want to build them. Publicity for the Empire State Building claimed the feeling of looking out from its viewing gallery was better than air travel. Nobody explained that the platform was there only because the space could not be sold.

_keen_
July 31st, 2006, 07:07 PM
Just to add to this discussion, read this story from the "Economist"

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=7001496

Very good article ! I read it twice. As for the topic i think ss's can be superb addition to any city as long as they have good architecture and are built further from the historic center, or some natural barrier is between two (like a river).

ReddAlert
August 3rd, 2006, 06:33 AM
depends on the city

London (British cities in general), Frankfurt, and other central/eastern European cities...YES

Paris, Athens, Lisbon, Copenhagen, Rome, Barcelona....NO

Minato ku
August 3rd, 2006, 11:43 PM
Yes

Paris has skyscrapers in inner city (not in historical center) but in city proper
53 buildings +90m ( La Defense is not include because it is in suburbs )
Paris must build scrapers in inner city but not in historical center.
This city is very dense demand is very high and the place misses
Montparnasse tower is isolated
It must be more scrapers in this district.
The 19th district has industrial ruin Paris should build scrapers here to.

De Snor
August 4th, 2006, 11:47 AM
depends on the city

London (British cities in general), Frankfurt, and other central/eastern European cities...YES

Paris, Athens, Lisbon, Copenhagen, Rome, Barcelona....NO

could say it better.
Brussels is the weirdest example of building tall buildings next to historic ones.
Some hate it others don't , I like this kind of urban chaos.
It would be a nightmare in other cities

Eric Offereins
August 9th, 2006, 10:46 PM
^^ I agree.