Thanks Dvorak! 18% p.a., wow, that's steep!

But Pag-ibig wouldn't normally grant loans to preselling units, very much most banks, right. So at the onset, would you advise that I avail of the easy payment terms offered by the developer, then upon turn-over of the unit, avail of Pag-ibig or get a bank loan.

Also, with all those payment schemes by developers, I dunno which one is the best. What should I consder wehn choosing the paymetn schemes?

at pre-selling.. most developers now offers zero interest downpayment.. you should avail of that first.. then go thru financing after the downpayment..


Thanks Dvorak! 18% p.a., wow, that's steep!

But Pag-ibig wouldn't normally grant loans to preselling units, very much most banks, right. So at the onset, would you advise that I avail of the easy payment terms offered by the developer, then upon turn-over of the unit, avail of Pag-ibig or get a bank loan.

Also, with all those payment schemes by developers, I dunno which one is the best. What should I consder wehn choosing the paymetn schemes?

yey and i've also been to sanfrancisco and i like the weather ,so much more diverse and multicultural ,it's alsmost like you never left PHils. there is so many flips and restaurants there.
I would assume the wages are also higher in California.

P40,000/mo lang ba rental sa condo? I heard P90,000/mo ang singil sa 1BR in BGC. Kung former, 9% lang ROR mo. I think you'd be better off putting it in a peso time dep with an interest rate of 18% (meron ba?). Sa dollar acct, currently 4.25% dito sa US and eventually will go up to 5% dahil sa fed rate increases. Since historically, the peso depreciates against the dollar at an average annual rate of 5%, your total ROR would be 10% before taxes. After tax siguro mga 9%, so pareho lang ng sa condo, but much safer at wala ka ng sakit ng ulo. :)
C'mon, the rental rate for a 5M condo has got to be higher than P40T/mo in order for it to be financially feasible.sorry, ganun lang talaga ang rental/lease rates. go to buyandsellphilippines.com, there is always an extensive list of properties for sale/rent/lease.

this is precisely the reason most of us advocate the position that philippine condo purchases should not be viewed as investmentsHere is the Latest Report from Colliers Philippines...

Rents

At the close of 2005, luxury 3-BR units in the Makati CBD were being leased at an average of P421 per sq m per month or P101,610 on a per unit basis. In the course of 2005, residential condominium rents escalated by nearly 25% from P338 per sq m in 2004. Just like the office sector, recovery has now gained momentum if the 2005 escalation is compared with the 10% growth recorded in 2004. After falling by 43% in the 2003 trough, rents have rebounded by 37%. For the whole of 2006, residential escalation is expected at 15% YoY at an average of P485 per sq m per month or P126,000 per unit. Average rents along the Apartment Ridge/Roxas Triangle fell by less
than 2% YoY at an average of P93,000 per month (P344 per sq m per month). While rents in Salcedo Village were nearly static in the course of 2005 at P75,107 per month (P399 per sq m per month). Rockwell rents outperformed all locations in Makati with an escalation of nearly 14% YoY to an average of P131,250 per month (P587 per sq m per month). Fort Bonifacio rents increased by 6% YoY to an average of P124,300 (P509 per sq m per month).

COMPARATIVE RESIDENTIAL LEASE RATES - THREE BEDROOM, SEMI FURNISHED

----------------------------Min.------Ave.------Max.-----%Change (YoY)
Apartment Ridge/Roxas Triangle
Rental Range--------------50,000-----93,000---180,000---- -1.1%
Average Size---------------220-------270------305

Salcedo Village
Rental Range--------------40,000-----75,107----110,000----0.6%
Average Size---------------130-------188-------320

Rockwell
Rental Range--------------90,000-----131,250----170,000---13.5%
Average Size---------------184-------224--------286

Fort Bonifacio
Rental Range--------------63,000------124,300----180,000----6.2%
Average Size---------------145--------244--------306

If you want the whole report:
http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositories/Base/Markets/Philippines/English/Market_Report/PDFs/knwldgJan06.pdf
Equalizer,
I don't think the rental for 1 bdrm units (or units less than 80+ SQM) in FBGC nor anywhere else for that matter will go that high (P90T/mo). That's a bit unrealistic or too optimistic which is why the P40-60T/mo which Collier's reported in Asraz's post is a better number/range to go by. With the current rental rates combined with the historical depreciation of the Peso against the Dollar, it looks like one is better off investing in a less risky high yield bonds and even time deposit as one can get about the same ROI without the headaches (maintenance, renters, etc.). However what you may not have factored is the property price appreciation in time which is where the big money/return really is. That's why it is so very important to choose an area with a big growth potential such as FBGC so you can really wait it out until it gets developed and still enjoy the hell out of the unit purchase while doing so. This is also why condo unit purchases in the Philippines, as Bartman said, should be viewed less as investment vehicles (more so short term investments) or one will just be disappointed with the venture. My own take on this is like anything else just don't put all your marbles in one basket. Diversifying one's investments to hedge against the ups and downs of the economy (world and local) is key to a healthy investment portfolio. :)

^^ PS: Same advice to Oddvertising... :)

I am an artist by profession so I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to investing. Unlike you guys who are based in the US I am an OFW working in Dubai. Though there is a business boom and expats can now buy freehold properties here in Dubai my heart is still set in investing and retiring in the Philippines. My grand plan to get out out of the rat race is as follows.

I am going to rent out the first condo I bought and the monthly income from that will go into paying the second condo I just bought. In 4 years time I would have paid for the 2nd condo and I will also rent it out. Now I have 2 condos that I can rent out and the income from that will go into buyimg 2 more condos. After another 4 years I can buy another 4 units!

In 12 years time I reckon I would have 8 units in total.
I would stay in one of the units and live-off the income from the other 3, while the remaining 4 will help me grow my asset.

Is this a realistic scenario?

uy, have you heard of Ayala's Homestarter 3-year bonds? i think that's a really good investment for young people who are just starting on with their lives.
http://www.ayalaland.com.ph/whats_new_article.asp
Fhoy, Guess the way it works is one can deposit a certain amount ($5T-25T a month) for 3 years and together with the interest generated will be enough to put as down payment on an Ayala project purchase after the 3 year term. Anyway I also saw this Ayala article in Businessweek that mentoned this Homestarter bond which they are now offering. I highlighted the portion below...

Article taken from: Business World
Vol. XIX, No. 139
Monday, February 6, 2006 | MANILA, PHILIPPINES
http://www.bworldonline.com/BW020606/content.php?id=041

BY RUBY ANNE M. RUBIO, Reporter

Fort Boni master plan being tweaked as project set for relaunch
The master plan for the Bonifacio Global City in Taguig is being tweaked ahead of a move to relaunch the project.

Ayala Land, Inc., the country’s largest real-estate developer, said improvements are being made on traffic circulation, distributing open space and amenities to make the lot more attractive to prospective owners, and cutting the lots into different sizes so they are easier to sell.

"When we relaunch, we want to start focusing on the people that will be buying the larger lots suitable for office," Ayala Land President Jaime Ayala said.

"We feel there is a new master plan which will make it a successful development. That plan is going through the process of getting approvals from the local government and owners of the area. That process is pretty much done. We are ready in the next few months of relaunching that. It will give potential buyers a clearer sense of what they are buying into. We can be clearer about that," he said.

In 2003, Ayala Land and Evergreen Holdings, Inc. of the Campos Group purchased from Metro Pacific Corp. a controlling stake in Bonifacio Land Corp. The Ayala-Campos group is now the government’s partner in Fort Bonifacio Development Corp., which spearheads the master-planning of the Bonifacio Global City.

For other Ayala Land projects, Mr. Ayala said the company expects to open the 200,000-square meter North Triangle Depot Commercial Corp. in Quezon City next year.

At the sidelines of the launch of the Ayala Homestarter Bond, he said the company had lined up projects to tap available market opportunities. But he declined to disclose potential locations.

He said 2006 "will be a very busy year" for the company. "We are hoping our market stays stable for this year. Real estate is hard to [predict] since there are many things that affect it. If we continue to have the environment right now of a very stable peso, low interest rates, we feel there could be additional expansion as the banks are providing financing and the overseas Filipino workers [OFWs] market remains strong."

The North Triangle Depot has appointed Ayala Land as development manager to exclusively direct all project design and development activities. It also has been designated manager of commercial center operations, which are scheduled to begin in 2007.

This development is envisioned to be a third city center after the Makati and Ortigas business districts. A super-regional shopping center will serve as the anchor development. It will involve a four-storey integrated retail center with a gross leasable area of approximately 162,000 square meters. Of this, 90,000 square meters will represent the mall proper which will be built by the North Triangle Depot, while the balance of 72,000 square meters shall constitute two adjacent anchor buildings to be funded and built by third-party retail developers to sublease from the North Triangle Depot.

Also scheduled to be opened next year is Greenbelt 5.

Ayala Land has allotted "more than" P1 billion for the construction of Greenbelt 5 wherein a substantial part of it will be funded by cash flow from shopping center leases.

"The malls and shopping cen-ter is a very competitive industry. Every mall has to come up with fresh ideas and new products. We are going to be putting up Greenbelt 5. We can let them announce it when they are ready," Mr. Ayala said.

"When you go to Greenbelt, their tagline is ’Everything is beautiful here.’ We want to create that kind of environment when you go to Greenbelt; it is place where you want to celebrate. It is still missing out a bit of retail. While it will have restaurants, we are going to add some retail. It will be very high-end market. It is connected to Greenbelt 4, which is the highest end. We will have very attractive brands and concepts. We will have new ones, of course. What you find in shopping centers is always updating new projects," Mr. Ayala said.

Business process outsourcing buildings are expected to boost Ayala Land office revenues after completing its first outsourcing facility for PeopleSupport Center in April 2005, and a building for Convergys, its second, in October.

Ayala Land started tapping demand for outsourcing space outside Metro Manila. In July, it broke ground on the two-storey Infonxx Building in Sta. Rosa in Laguna with 5,612 square meter of gross leasable area. This was completed in November and will provide jobs for some 1,200 call center professionals.

"We see quite robust growth in that sector driven by success of the country in call centers and BPO . We feel that is an attractive market. BPO market can be anywhere. They don’t have to be in a central business district. Our plan is to offer space in the central business district, which is more expensive, but also to give them space in other areas. It can be in the north, south, or Cebu. We are looking at other locations suitable to BPO and make it available. When somebody comes, they have a choice where to locate," he added.

The company said its program to increase shareholder value remains on track. It will continue to tap new sources of growth and make its presence felt in new market and geographic areas through projects such as Anvaya Cove, an integrated leisure and residential project in Morong, Bataan, and the Celadon Residences and Avida Towers in Manila.

"Real estate is a very important industry in the country. If it is strong, investments are big and employ a lot of people. Real estate and retail are very important drivers of the economy. If you have a stable environment, these sectors can grow, if it does, it has a multiplier effect. We are hopeful it will remain stable so we can see growth," Mr. Ayala said.

[B]Ayala Land is to issue the first tranche of three-year bonds to retail investors amounting to P252 million on Feb. 16.

The listed company launched the Homestarter Bond to allow prospective customers to build up funds for downpayment covering homes offered by Ayala Land and its subsidiaries Community Innovations and Avida Land Corp., formerly Laguna Properties Holdings, Inc.

Great idea Oddvertising! Now find the next Urdaneta and Forbes :)

for a 5M condo to get 90T a month?? medyo unrealistic yata yan pre..

siguro in the future pwede.. pero right now.. Essensa units go for 120T+.. Boni Ridge units go for 80T to 100T depends sa furnishing..

these are big units.. we're talking of over 100sqm for Essensa and Boni ridge..

a 1 bedroom could never reach 90T.. masyado nang mataas yan..

P40,000/mo lang ba rental sa condo? I heard P90,000/mo ang singil sa 1BR in BGC. Kung former, 9% lang ROR mo. I think you'd be better off putting it in a peso time dep with an interest rate of 18% (meron ba?). Sa dollar acct, currently 4.25% dito sa US and eventually will go up to 5% dahil sa fed rate increases. Since historically, the peso depreciates against the dollar at an average annual rate of 5%, your total ROR would be 10% before taxes. After tax siguro mga 9%, so pareho lang ng sa condo, but much safer at wala ka ng sakit ng ulo. :)

C'mon, the rental rate for a 5M condo has got to be higher than P40T/mo in order for it to be financially feasible.

MACKY...i was browsing this forum and i came across your inquiry abt. sans souci...we're the same in the idea of wanting to invest in a property there...but i suggest you check it first carefully...i fell in love with those pictures of sans souci at their website and really want to get that lot #8, the beachfront one...thanks to this SSC forum i met someone from mindoro (from and he told me


midsunset92,
Thanks for warning me about that area and for sure i need to check out the locale first...... it just too bad, because i thought it was a good deal to invest in that piece of paradise. I was interested in their residential lot overlooking the ocean and it would have been nice sana kung nandoon ka nga sa beach front, may ka-kilala na kaagad ako...and like you and I, people who are interested to invest there probably looking for the same thing, a serene paradise retreat. I hope it's not that bad out there,but then again, i remember when i was a teenager in Mandaluyong, i sometimes hanged-out and drank with kanto boys full of tattoo and those tattoo were not for fashionable reason. Baka pwede naman da-anin sa maboteng usapan o kaya sanayan lang.

MACKY...well, i hope u get that oceanview lot...i was also considering lot 31 before..with that kind of price and pymt plan u gotta push through..so good luck...sit back muna ako and try a diff route...i'll just renovate & furnish my condo unit... :wave:


midsunset92,
Thanks for warning me about that area and for sure i need to check out the locale first...... it just too bad, because i thought it was a good deal to invest in that piece of paradise. I was interested in their residential lot overlooking the ocean and it would have been nice sana kung nandoon ka nga sa beach front, may ka-kilala na kaagad ako...and like you and I, people who are interested to invest there probably looking for the same thing, a serene paradise retreat. I hope it's not that bad out there,but then again, i remember when i was a teenager in Mandaluyong, i sometimes hanged-out and drank with kanto boys full of tattoo and those tattoo were not for fashionable reason. Baka pwede naman da-anin sa maboteng usapan o kaya sanayan lang.

if the place is full of friendly people, the price will not rise anyway and you'll be able to buy it in a few years when you accumulated more dollars from your hard work.

alam niyo the world is also becoming a smaller place, it may be more realistic to buy land in places siargao or islands near boracay , palawan withi the not so far off future. Besides if you're earning in dollars you can easily find a wife who guard your island or beach very ferociously against all comers including npa, lalo na kung number 2 siya :)

You can use your PagIbig membership (if you're not one you can be an instant member by paying the previous 18 months is a go) to buy on the primary and secondary. They're interest rates run from as low as 6% for truly socialized housing (probably not your category ) to 14% (over 750,000 to 2 million yata, you can check their website). The important thing with PagIbig is that as opposed to other financial instutions like banks their interest rates are fixed for the tenure of your loan. This is very useful for those times when the interst rates get really high. (if you've experienced 83 to 85 and 90 -91 you know what I'm talking about).

On the other hand, I know BPI will give you as low as 10% on 5 year repricing for a 15 year note. This is for certain ALI projects. In other wordsin the present environment it's actually cheaper to get financing from the private sector than from Pagibig for certain projects.

Do not forget that you can also tap your SSS/GSIS availments but under the Unified Home lending Program, you can only avail to of one either sss/gsis/pagibig/nhmfc per person, that's to prevent people from getting into the housebuying and selling business and crowdingout other home buyers.

Developers have very different schemes from one project to the other. It depends on how well they're selling their projects. Newport City equity and finaincning schemes are different from Eastwood and their Boni Projects. You have to look at it project per project. And of course developer per developer.

wow thanks :)

bustero,
mmm....#2? That's a good idea....baka pwede na rin mag 3,4,5. Hindi ba mas nakakatakot sa parteng Mindanao? Atsaka isa pa, medyo malayo-layo na rin iyon.

Here is a sampling of what are the actual rents being advertised in differents classified ad newspapers in manila today.

1 LAFAYETTE 65T/MO. 3br, fully furnished.(0919) 4176065
1 LAFAYETTE 25T/MO. FA 67sq.m, br, fully furnished, parking, also 131sq.m 2br semi-furnished.898-3808

CALIFORNIA GARDEN SQUARE 20T/MO. 2stry, 2br, Libertad St, e-mail info@propertyfinder.com.ph687-2670

CALIFORNIA GARDENS 18T/MO. (neg) FA 81sq.m, 3br.808-4593

CALIFORNIA GARDENS SQUARE 12T/MO. FA 57sq.m, 2br, new, www.epropertyph.com.531-9286

CITYLAND EXEC. TOWER 25T/MO. 3br, new, unfurnished, email mys_manila@yahoo.com.(0906) 3053198

CITYLAND MEGA PLAZA ORTIGAS 12T/MO. FA 36sq.m, furnished, back of Galleria.803-2708

CITYLAND SHAWTOWER 30T/MO. 3br, 3t&b, ully furnished. Cynthia(0919) 4569366

EASTWOOD 20T/MO. FA 60sq.m, also 90sq.m P35T, new, w/ A/C & blinds, RFO.812-0973

EASTWOOD LAFAYETTE 18T/MO. FA 36sq.m, studio, fully furnished, info@propertyfinder.com.ph889-9748

FORT BONIFACIO 30T/MO. UP studio/1-3br, 1Mckinley/Boni Ridge/Essensa/Pacific Plaza, rent/sale.6206379

GREENBELT 25T/MO. br, parking, fully furnished, inclusive of dues.887-4032
GREENBELT 20T/MO. studio.(0918) 9166580
GREENBELT 45T/MO. FA 140sq.m, 2br, w/ dues, 2parking, www.epropertyph.com.531-9286

LEGASPI VILL. 15T/MO. UP studio, 1-3br, furnished/unfurnished.(0919) 3754472
LEGASPI VILL. 15T/MO. UP studio, 1-3br, Salcedo/Ortigas/Mandaluyong/Roxas/etc, rent/sale.746-5761

MAKATI PRIME CITY 18T/MO. FA 40sq.m, 1br, rent to own, fully furnished, A/C, ref, TV, etc.752-4054

MEGA PLAZA 20T/MO. FA 46sq.m, 1 br/fully furnished, back of Robinsons info@propertyfinder.com.ph6872670

ORTIGAS 35T/MO. FA 120sq.m, 2br, furnished, w/ dues/parking, AIC.(0919) 5285637
ORTIGAS CTR. 25T/MO. 2/3br, unfurnished, parking.726-7881

PARAGON PLAZA 50T/MO. FA 105sq.m, 2br, 3t&b, utility, furnished, spectacular 270 degree.931-5662

PACIFIC PLAZA 105T/MO. FA 285sq.m, 3br, furnished, 2parking, Ayala, email mys_manila@yahoo.com.(0906) 3053198

ROBINSONS PLACE 70T/MO. FA 168sq.m, 37/F, 3br, fully furnished, 2parking, w/ interior.550-8732

ROCKWELL 30T/MO.UP studio, 1-3br, fully furnished/unfurnished, Manansala/Luna/etc, rent/sale.620-6379

Thanks Bustero for the very useful info but can you expound to me what you meant by this?


On the other hand, I know BPI will give you as low as 10% on 5 year repricing for a 15 year note. This is for certain ALI projects. In other wordsin the present environment it's actually cheaper to get financing from the private sector than from Pagibig for certain projects.

Para sa mga taga bay area? Where is the best place in the bay area to buy property if you're thinking of moving there from Portland , Oregon?

I hope you're not contemplating to buy there right now. You're better off renting there as there's a huge chance there'll be a massive home price correction soon. Read this

http://patrick.net/housing/crash.html

Also, here's a hilarious part of the blog:

http://patrick.net/wp/?p=161#comments

Here is the Latest Report from Colliers Philippines...

Rents

At the close of 2005, luxury 3-BR units in the Makati CBD were being leased at an average of P421 per sq m per month or P101,610 on a per unit basis. In the course of 2005, residential condominium rents escalated by nearly 25% from P338 per sq m in 2004. Just like the office sector, recovery has now gained momentum if the 2005 escalation is compared with the 10% growth recorded in 2004. After falling by 43% in the 2003 trough, rents have rebounded by 37%. For the whole of 2006, residential escalation is expected at 15% YoY at an average of P485 per sq m per month or P126,000 per unit. Average rents along the Apartment Ridge/Roxas Triangle fell by less
than 2% YoY at an average of P93,000 per month (P344 per sq m per month). While rents in Salcedo Village were nearly static in the course of 2005 at P75,107 per month (P399 per sq m per month). Rockwell rents outperformed all locations in Makati with an escalation of nearly 14% YoY to an average of P131,250 per month (P587 per sq m per month). Fort Bonifacio rents increased by 6% YoY to an average of P124,300 (P509 per sq m per month).

COMPARATIVE RESIDENTIAL LEASE RATES - THREE BEDROOM, SEMI FURNISHED

----------------------------Min.------Ave.------Max.-----%Change (YoY)
Apartment Ridge/Roxas Triangle
Rental Range--------------50,000-----93,000---180,000---- -1.1%
Average Size---------------220-------270------305

Salcedo Village
Rental Range--------------40,000-----75,107----110,000----0.6%
Average Size---------------130-------188-------320

Rockwell
Rental Range--------------90,000-----131,250----170,000---13.5%
Average Size---------------184-------224--------286

Fort Bonifacio
Rental Range--------------63,000------124,300----180,000----6.2%
Average Size---------------145--------244--------306

If you want the whole report:
http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositories/Base/Markets/Philippines/English/Market_Report/PDFs/knwldgJan06.pdf

I've read somewhere that in order to get a feel of how fair the market value of a house/condo is, the rental price that you should get if you rent it out should be at least 10% of the price. So for a P6M condo, you should get at least 600,000/yr or 50T/mo. If it's lower than that, then the price is too high. The reason is that the investor would have trouble with his cash-flow if he bought it for investment. If not, then maybe he should be ok. But c'mon, how many do you think bought condos in BGC to LIVE in? I'm pretty sure most are planning to rent them out to expats :)

But c'mon, how many do you think bought condos in BGC to LIVE in? I'm pretty sure most are planning to rent them out to expats :)

Thus thereby lowering the rental prices...(there will just be too much supply vying for that niche rental demand from the Expat/Foreigner market). That's why the real money (wealth creation) will not be made in the rental income but rather on the future equity appreciation of the said property. The rental income just buys you the time to realize that appreciation. :)

Thus thereby lowering the rental prices...(there will just be too much supply vying for that niche rental demand from the Expat/Foreigner market). That's why the real money (wealth creation) will not be made in the rental income but rather on the future equity appreciation of the said property. The rental income just buys you the time to realize that appreciation. :)

What is the current annual appreciation in bgc? Isn't this speculative investing? Aren't we better off putting the money in US I-bond where the current ongoing ROI is 7% before fed taxes? Plus it's totally safe being backed by Uncle Sam?

In general, real estate apppreciate hand and hand with economic health .When I bought my condo unit there , my time frame was 10 to 15 years to self-pay itself....after that, it will turn into cash cow generating income.

Here are some practical arguments I heard about investing in real estate.

1. With property, the real price of your asset is as high as a buyer would be willing to pay you. You can buy a 3m peso property, do some improvements and sell it for double the price. With stocks, there's nothing you can do to improve the value of your shares.

2. If a bank is willing to lend you money to buy a piece of property that means you are buying it at the best price because they will not lend you the money if the price is not fair.

3. God is not making anymore land and there would surely be more people tommorrow than today so there's no way your property's value would depreciate.

Here's a positive experience that I had, that's why I am a little optimistic that condos in the philippines can also be a good investment.

I bought my first condo in Megaplaza Ortigas for only P1.6 million pesos (spread over 4 years) last 1999 at P27,000/sqm.
When it was turned over to me on 2002 the price /sqm is already P47,000/sqm.

Now the current price/sqm is about P56,000/sqm.

I just leased it out this month for 25,000 a month for a period of 1 year.

I am now using the rental income to partly pay for my next condo purchase.

After joining the skyscrapercity forum, I am now more convinced in aspiring to become a landlord. (Dreaming is more like it!)
I am now selling some of my earlier purchase of residential lots in Las Pinas and Cavite to invest more in condominiums.

I agree with 3cr that you shouldn't look at it as a main vehicle for investment but I think it is also a healthy place to park some of your asset.

I think the main mistakes of OFW's like me are:

1. We buy land but never get to build a house on it because we do not know when we are settling back in the phil. Our investments just lie there w/o any income aside from the price appreciation.

2. We sell it when we desperately need the money so we usually don't get a good deal. I think the best time to sell your property is when you don't need the money so you can hold out for a better deal.

Exactly how my broker at FPDSavills computes for the rent.. condo price / 10 / 12..


I've read somewhere that in order to get a feel of how fair the market value of a house/condo is, the rental price that you should get if you rent it out should be at least 10% of the price. So for a P6M condo, you should get at least 600,000/yr or 50T/mo. If it's lower than that, then the price is too high. The reason is that the investor would have trouble with his cash-flow if he bought it for investment. If not, then maybe he should be ok. But c'mon, how many do you think bought condos in BGC to LIVE in? I'm pretty sure most are planning to rent them out to expats :)

One old rule of thumb I know of (but don't neccesarily follow ) is that the yield should at 1% per month of asset price. This basically translates to 12% a year. This is for income property. (value derived from cashflow steming from the asset)

Be careful with some assumptions on the capital appreciation. The biggest jumps are ussually from the early presales, as a project starts to be sold and depending on how well it is selling, developers will jack the price higher every so often depending on time and inventory. If you check on the secondary market though you may find that it's not that much easier to sell.

For those who bought after the asian crisis, where declining property values was the rule, the experience should be good as you were buying at the lower end of the market. It's only been a few months where there is some stirring in the secondary market so it is still very fragile. In other words asset prices may collapse. The banks are still holding on to a huge inverntory of condo's. Their lowering non performing asset account is an incentive for them not to dump it though as they do not want to take a haircut. Be advised that the vulture funds ( SPAV's) have so far swallowed upward of 100 billion in nominal assets and these have already been revalued at a fraction of the original booked price (20 to 50%). These guys have not still unloaded in a big way.

15 years is the lenght of the mortgage. So you will be paying your principal plus interest , monthly , over this period. Now depending on your mortgage agreement your interest rates can vary depending on the lenght of time you are locked in, so 5 year repricing means that on the 5th year, they will change the interset rate of 10% , which you have agreed upon to the prevailing rate. Mind you it can be cheaper at that point in time. In other words if the market rate is 7% you may be able to get this as your interest rate for the next year or so many years you have agreed to. This becomes a value judgement on your part in terms of anticipating whether interest rates go up or down. Some people go for one year interst rate lock so just after 1 year you have to renegotiate the new rate and tenure of the note. The rational behind this kind of thinking is obviously that they perceive lower interest rates after 12 months and hence should be able to get cheaper ammortization payments in the correspondnig year.

PagIbig is good in the sense that nobody offers such long fixed rates, no bank does it, the longest is 5 years from what I've seen. I don't know of anyone who goes as long as PagIbig (up to 30). For the lower categories such as socialized and low cost (both less than 500,000pesos). The interest rates are fixed at 6% to 9% and this makes it a very stable loan indeed. There is no risk in variability for their ammortizations, which makes it easy to budget.

For people in this forum though the projects you are all looking at is not in the subsidized range (over 750,000 I think is not subsidized and hence higher interest rates apply, as it should) so you're probably borrowing at 14% a year. So this in some ways is actually higher than what the commercial banks are offering right now BUT the key difference is in the lenght of the fixed interest rate, hence this is the key differentiating factor.

I think Pag-ibig has changed their rules.. If your loan is more than 5 years.. what happens now is the 12% rate is only effective on the years 1 to 5.. then the succeeding years is at 14% (or depends on the interest rate that they have at that time)... these are for loans >500T to 2M.


15 years is the lenght of the mortgage. So you will be paying your principal plus interest , monthly , over this period. Now depending on your mortgage agreement your interest rates can vary depending on the lenght of time you are locked in, so 5 year repricing means that on the 5th year, they will change the interset rate of 10% , which you have agreed upon to the prevailing rate. Mind you it can be cheaper at that point in time. In other words if the market rate is 7% you may be able to get this as your interest rate for the next year or so many years you have agreed to. This becomes a value judgement on your part in terms of anticipating whether interest rates go up or down. Some people go for one year interst rate lock so just after 1 year you have to renegotiate the new rate and tenure of the note. The rational behind this kind of thinking is obviously that they perceive lower interest rates after 12 months and hence should be able to get cheaper ammortization payments in the correspondnig year.

PagIbig is good in the sense that nobody offers such long fixed rates, no bank does it, the longest is 5 years from what I've seen. I don't know of anyone who goes as long as PagIbig (up to 30). For the lower categories such as socialized and low cost (both less than 500,000pesos). The interest rates are fixed at 6% to 9% and this makes it a very stable loan indeed. There is no risk in variability for their ammortizations, which makes it easy to budget.

For people in this forum though the projects you are all looking at is not in the subsidized range (over 750,000 I think is not subsidized and hence higher interest rates apply, as it should) so you're probably borrowing at 14% a year. So this in some ways is actually higher than what the commercial banks are offering right now BUT the key difference is in the lenght of the fixed interest rate, hence this is the key differentiating factor.

For those in the US, I believe that BPI North America provides loans to Filipinos.

What is the current annual appreciation in bgc? Isn't this speculative investing? Aren't we better off putting the money in US I-bond where the current ongoing ROI is 7% before fed taxes? Plus it's totally safe being backed by Uncle Sam? Sorry I don't have that info currently so it would be nice if someone in the know can fill us in on FBGC's annual appreciation rate. But to give you a general example of how much FBGC prices have gone up, I read somewhere in one of the SSCF threads that Ayala originally paid between P45T-55T/SQM for their properties in FBGC and when Serendra came on line the unit price started off around P75T-P80T/SQM while current prices have risen even higher by around P10T/SQM daw (it's now between P85T-P95T/SQM VAT inclusive) which is almost double what Ayala originally paid in price/SQM. Going by my own experience, a 2 bdrm unit in Fairways Tower similar to the one I bought a year and a half ago at slightly over P6M (around P75T/SQM VAT inclusive) has recently been listed by Philtown at over P7.3M already (around P90T/SQM VAT inclusive), which is a 17-18% appreciation, and due to the 2% increase in VAT (effective Feb.) the price has gone up another P2T/SQM since then. At the rate it's going, I would not be surprised that when the units in Serendra, Fairways Tower, and other FBGC projects are turned over that FBGC's residential pricing/SQM breaks the P100T mark which is in-line with industry realestate forecasts. I believe Colliers was one of those that forecasted FBGC pricing will be over P100T/SQM by 2007.

Based on the initial unit investment/purchase amount visavis the current rental rates combined with the historical depreciation of the Peso against the Dollar, it sure looks like one is indeed better off investing in a less risky high yield bonds and even time deposit as one can get about the same ROI without the headaches. It's indeed the safer bet. Guess it really depends on how risk averse you are. As I've mentioned before the big money/return in realestate is not really made on the rental income but on the property price appreciation in time and it is through renting out the unit which will allow one to buy the time until this price appreciation is realized. That's why it is so very important to identify/choose an area with a big growth potential (such as FBGC) and invest early in the pre-selling to get the best/lowest price (gaya ng sabi ni Bustero low point of entry is key). This way should one decide to rent their unit, the rental prospects will be good (as one can afford to start/take a lower rent amount than one who had invested much later) and will eventually just get better (higher rent and bigger rental market) especially as the area (FBGC in this example) gets more developed with more and more office buildings (senior level management/Expats) and even ST.Luke's Hospital (Doctors). However this does not mean that one will no longer have a negative cashflow by then, more likely one will still do, but atleast it will narrow the gap. That's why acquiring the unit early or buying it at a very good price (such as during the fire sale after the Asian crisis as Bustero mentioned) is very important as a starting point of any realestate purchase. Of course there is still risk involved in all these (developer might go bankrupt, area might not develop quickly, Gov't/Eco instability, natural disaster, etc.) due to the fact that any realestate investment, just like any other investment, still involves some kind/level of speculation. All we can do is minimize the risk by doing our research, performing due diligence, making informed decisions, and of course praying as well so that we can get to a certain comfort level (based on one's risk-averseness) of acceptable risk visavis the current and future ROI (return on investment). In the end of the day its up to the individual, some will find realestate investing up their alley while others will find it too rich for their blood. If there is one thing I've been stressing repeatedly in this discussion, just don't put all your marbles in one basket. Diversifying one's investments to hedge against the ups and downs of the economy (world and local) is key to a healthy investment portfolio. Hope this helps. :)

Sorry I don't have that info currently so it would be nice if someone in the know can fill us in on FBGC's annual appreciation rate. But to give you a general example of how much FBGC prices have gone up, I read somewhere in one of the SSCF threads that Ayala originally paid between P45T-55T/SQM for their properties in FBGC and when Serendra came on line the unit price started off around P75T-P80T/SQM while current prices have risen even higher by around P10T/SQM daw (it's now between P85T-P95T/SQM VAT inclusive) which is almost double what Ayala originally paid in price/SQM. Going by my own experience, a 2 bdrm unit in Fairways Tower similar to the one I bought a year and a half ago at slightly over P6M (around P75T/SQM VAT inclusive) has recently been listed by Philtown at over P7.3M already (around P90T/SQM VAT inclusive), which is a 17-18% appreciation, and due to the 2% increase in VAT (effective Feb.) the price has gone up another P2T/SQM since then. At the rate it's going, I would not be surprised that when the units in Serendra, Fairways Tower, and other FBGC projects are turned over that FBGC's residential pricing/SQM breaks the P100T mark which is in-line with industry realestate forecasts. I believe Colliers was one of those that forecasted FBGC pricing will be over P100T/SQM by 2007.

Based on the initial unit investment/purchase amount visavis the current rental rates combined with the historical depreciation of the Peso against the Dollar, it sure looks like one is indeed better off investing in a less risky high yield bonds and even time deposit as one can get about the same ROI without the headaches. It's indeed the safer bet. Guess it really depends on how risk averse you are. As I've mentioned before the big money/return in realestate is not really made on the rental income but on the property price appreciation in time and it is through renting out the unit which will allow one to buy the time until this price appreciation is realized. That's why it is so very important to identify/choose an area with a big growth potential (such as FBGC) and invest early in the pre-selling to get the best/lowest price (gaya ng sabi ni Bustero low point of entry is key). This way should one decide to rent their unit, the rental prospects will be good (as one can afford to start/take a lower rent amount than one who had invested much later) and will eventually just get better (higher rent and bigger rental market) especially as the area (FBGC in this example) gets more developed with more and more office buildings (senior level management/Expats) and even ST.Luke's Hospital (Doctors). However this does not mean that one will no longer have a negative cashflow by then, more likely one will still do, but atleast it will narrow the gap. That's why acquiring the unit early or buying it at a very good price (such as during the fire sale after the Asian crisis as Bustero mentioned) is very important as a starting point of any realestate purchase. Of course there is still risk involved in all these (developer might go bankrupt, area might not develop quickly, Gov't/Eco instability, natural disaster, etc.) due to the fact that any realestate investment, just like any other investment, still involves some kind/level of speculation. All we can do is minimize the risk by doing our research, performing due diligence, making informed decisions, and of course praying as well so that we can get to a certain comfort level (based on one's risk-averseness) of acceptable risk visavis the current and future ROI (return on investment). In the end of the day its up to the individual, some will find realestate investing up their alley while others will find it too rich for their blood. If there is one thing I've been stressing repeatedly in this discussion, just don't put all your marbles in one basket. Diversifying one's investments to hedge against the ups and downs of the economy (world and local) is key to a healthy investment portfolio. Hope this helps. :)

Agree with you 100%

Here's a positive experience that I had, that's why I am a little optimistic that condos in the philippines can also be a good investment.

I bought my first condo in Megaplaza Ortigas for only P1.6 million pesos (spread over 4 years) last 1999 at P27,000/sqm.
When it was turned over to me on 2002 the price /sqm is already P47,000/sqm.

Now the current price/sqm is about P56,000/sqm.

I just leased it out this month for 25,000 a month for a period of 1 year.

I am now using the rental income to partly pay for my next condo purchase.

After joining the skyscrapercity forum, I am now more convinced in aspiring to become a landlord. (Dreaming is more like it!)
I am now selling some of my earlier purchase of residential lots in Las Pinas and Cavite to invest more in condominiums.

I agree with 3cr that you shouldn't look at it as a main vehicle for investment but I think it is also a healthy place to park some of your asset.

I think the main mistakes of OFW's like me are:

1. We buy land but never get to build a house on it because we do not know when we are settling back in the phil. Our investments just lie there w/o any income aside from the price appreciation.

2. We sell it when we desperately need the money so we usually don't get a good deal. I think the best time to sell your property is when you don't need the money so you can hold out for a better deal.

Based on your figures, you had an ave. annual yield of 11%. But your rental yield is around 18% on your original investment, not bad at all.

^^^^heheheheh but i'm 52. i can also relate personally to this retirement thingy...

i retired from my first career 8 yrs ago. had a retirement ceremony, party, etc. i'm also getting monthly retirement checks. i have IRS Forms 1099R from the last 8 years to prove this :) alas, my retirement status only lasted a few days because the following week, i accepted a full time position as a software developer.

my plan is to quit this job next year and spend my time between the philippines and the bay area. status - RETIRED!!!

Good for you. So what do you plan to DO when you RETIRE?

i'm sorry dude but that doesn't wash.
you CANNOT just pilot a plane as a hobby. cite me a commercial airliner that would allow you to do this....

there is a big difference if a friend from big firm or organization asks you casually what you think of something in their organization and you give your point of view as opposed to being called in the office, gets presented an issue, you perform a study with analysis, and submit a final report with recommendations, then get paid. when you do it in a formal setting, that's consulting. if you consult and do it even a few times during the year, that's your job. you in fact report the payment as income. therefore you're NOT retired.

truck driving as a hobby? get real! even if you drive your own truck, if you're hauling commercial cargo, that's a job. there are rules and regulations to abide by. you do it a few times a year as a hobby? heck, as far as the IRS is concerned, you're a part time truck driver. you're NOT retired.

get the point?

I see your point. But it was MY definition of retirement I was talking about, not the technical or business definition. I consider myself retired if I could do something I want while being able to satisfy all my financial obligations. You only see the difference in terms of getting or not getting PAID for it. Getting paid does not define retirement for me. It's how I see or look at what I'm doing. If I start to get bored of it, then retirement ALLOWS me to quickly and readily abandon it for something else without hesitation. If it does not, then it's a job.

[QUOTE=bartman]hello jun :)

just for discussion's sake, i offer you my situation as an example...

i'm a technical director for the largest telecommunications company in the US
i love my job. i however have an 8 - 5 mon - fri work schedule. i can financially sustain myself, even without a job.

question: am i retired? i believe definitely NOT!!

QUOTE]

Are you just doing it because you derive great satisfaction, enjoyment and happiness out of it? Would you still do it if they TAKE AWAY your salary and all compensation? Would you PAY money to do it? If you answered yes to all three, then in my dictionary, you are RETIRED!

Thank you equalizer. The guide you mentioned of having a 10% yearly rental income of the total contract price is really useful for me in asessing my next purchase.

3cr you really got me interested in joining the FBGC bandwagon. I am considering either SOMA or Serendra. But I think the Serendra might be out of my price range. I remember that you bought something from Fairways Tower did the price change already since you bought it?

Are there any good pre-selling projects in the horizon at FBGC?

in all honesty, whoever answers yes to all three question would be lying. having to be compelled to work 8-5 M-F would be contradictory to one of the fringe benefits of being retired - to do whatever whenever.

this is as far as i go with this discussion, since I am decades away from being financially retired.

^^ Oddvertising,
I'm glad you'll consider FBGC since I really do believe in area's potential which was also why I bought/invested in a unit there eventhough I could have gotten much more squarefootage in Ortigas and even Makati for less money. Serendra is really nice but also pricey among other things and so I ended up picking up a unit in Fairways Tower instead. I got mine a year and a half ago at around the P75T/SQM range (paid a little over P6M for a mid-floor, 2 bdrm corner unit facing Manila Golf and Makati skyline). But as I mentioned in Post#211 above, Philtown has already priced their available 2 bdrm units at over P7.3M (around P90T/SQM) and this does not reflect the recent P2T/SQM increase they just announced which I guess covers the extra 2% VAT increase that started in Feb. Mahal na rin duon ngayon kasi it's now topped-off and only have less than a year to go before turn-over. I heard Soma Tower 1 is almost sold out except for the lower floors though Tower 2 is still pre-selling. Hamptons I think still has units available but units are delivered bare (unless contracted otherwise) which is why they seem lesser priced compared to other developments. There are also newer developments in FBGC that are still pre-selling like Robinson's loft project (McKinleyPark), Megaworld's Bellagio 3 and Forbeswoods Parklane, and meron din The Icon (though I don't know the developer's track record). Of course there are also units available for re-sale by unit investors/buyers in the secondary market; not to mention future condo developments slated to be constructed in FBGC. I honestly think FBGC will soon fast become a real destination spot which makes me giddy with excitement and anticipation. FBGC will be a great place to be, to live, to work, and to invest and I can't wait for all these projects/developments to come into fruition because that's also when the price/equity appreciation will be realized. Simply put you can't go wrong with FBGC! I bought mine as a personal residence more so than an investment property so anything else good that comes out of my unit purchase is a bonus I'll gladly take any day! Hope this helps you out in becoming a future neighbor...Hehehe! :)

In general, real estate apppreciate hand and hand with economic health .When I bought my condo unit there , my time frame was 10 to 15 years to self-pay itself....after that, it will turn into cash cow generating income.


Let me further explain myself. The 10 to 15 yrs are on a very conservative side,but like most of us here, i'm very bullish with my investment and optimistic with our country's future economy. When i did my due diligence and weighed the pros and cons, i saw the risk little compared to the rewards. First of all,before i purchased my condo there, myself and my wife were already contemplating of retiring in the Phil.,but the problem was i could'nt seemed to find an ideal place until FBGC came in the picture. Fbgc proximity and accessibility to all made it a perfect place for me, plus, being world class city and all, i could'nt get wrong. Second, with all this outsourcing and offshoring going around it should somehow improve the economy. Now, when all this speculations materializes and take root, Phil. will be much greener pasture indeed.

Here's a positive experience that I had, that's why I am a little optimistic that condos in the philippines can also be a good investment.

I bought my first condo in Megaplaza Ortigas for only P1.6 million pesos (spread over 4 years) last 1999 at P27,000/sqm.
When it was turned over to me on 2002 the price /sqm is already P47,000/sqm.

Now the current price/sqm is about P56,000/sqm.

I just leased it out this month for 25,000 a month for a period of 1 year.

I am now using the rental income to partly pay for my next condo purchase.

After joining the skyscrapercity forum, I am now more convinced in aspiring to become a landlord. (Dreaming is more like it!)
I am now selling some of my earlier purchase of residential lots in Las Pinas and Cavite to invest more in condominiums.

I agree with 3cr that you shouldn't look at it as a main vehicle for investment but I think it is also a healthy place to park some of your asset.

I think the main mistakes of OFW's like me are:

1. We buy land but never get to build a house on it because we do not know when we are settling back in the phil. Our investments just lie there w/o any income aside from the price appreciation.

2. We sell it when we desperately need the money so we usually don't get a good deal. I think the best time to sell your property is when you don't need the money so you can hold out for a better deal.
there's alot of this happening . good job

You may want to look at secondary units in the fort. You can get a unit in Essensa for 15 million. This is a 300 sq.m. with 3 car parks included. Basically priced at 50k/sq.m. This is the original US1million dollar unit, when it first sold. designed by I.M. Pei and clad in Travertine Stone from Italy, Not painted nor glass like the current crop.

My point is capital appreciation is dynamic. And what can go up can go down , specially the longer you hold something. Cuidao.

I think Pag-ibig has changed their rules.. If your loan is more than 5 years.. what happens now is the 12% rate is only effective on the years 1 to 5.. then the succeeding years is at 14% (or depends on the interest rate that they have at that time)... these are for loans >500T to 2M.


This is still ok as long as they tell you upfront, then the consumer can decide. What's important is that you know how much you'll be paying for in years 6 to 15 etc. In a floating rate after 1 or 5 years, you'll have to go with the market which could be good for you or catastrophic if you are unluck , and if you're budgeted a certain amount, you may find yourself with a very tight budget or worse.

I haven't tried bank financing.. how does it works?? what are the documents needed? how long is the processing??

Have you heard of Equitable's housing loan?? I saw their brochure and they seem to have a very low interest.

^^ Yes I agree the market cycle is indeed dynamic but boy $1M is P52M or P173T/SQM is extremely steep don't you think? Dami palang mayamang buyers/investors sa Pinas to be able to throw that much money around! Essensa/Century's Sales and Marketing departments surely did one heck of a hype job to convince those original buyers/investors to fork out P52M for a 300SQM unit with a cemetery as a neighbor and when FBGC was still basically a ghost town at that time. Though the thing I'm really curious to know is what were the buyers/investors thinking when they actually bought their respective units at that price under such circumstances? That's just crazy as I can't fathom what their decision purchase basis could very well be other than simple ignorance as well as extreme and reckless speculation (which are big NO NOs in realestate investing!). This is a classic case of ill-informed buyers/investors not understanding the market, not doing their homework/due-diligence, probably over-extending themselves financially, and much worse paying too much for the damn unit in the first place (at probably the worse time - during ReaEstate boom years) which is why when the dust settled and prices corrected they are now at a loss and need to unload at a steep discount. Imagine from $1M (P52M or P173T/SQM) down to $300T (P15M or P50T/SQM) aba sayang naman yang laking pera nawala sa kanila. Too bad they're losing 2/3 of their investment value but they also set themselves up to failure by buying too high. Hopefully they can afford the loss and learn from such an expensive mistake/miscalculation.

The P50T/SQM in FBGC is a great price for new buyers/investors, too bad though the cut is 300SQM (too large) as it makes the cost of investment too high a price point for most which is also why projects after Essensa, Regent Parkway and Pacific Plaza have been developed with smaller cuts (w/ option to combine units) to make them more affordable. And for that kind of money (P15M + 12% VAT) I'd rather secure a multi unit set-up anyway for investment purposes (and/or diversify also into other types of investments as hedge) para mas madali rin parentahan at a fair price and in the process buy time for that price/equity appreciation to be realized and also allow you the option to unload (some or all units) much easier for that matter when need be. Guess I just prefer the flexibility of a multi unit set-up offers over one large mega unit in Essensa when talking about a P15M investment. Of course that's just me but how about you Oddvertising are you interested in Essensa?

If you buy a property worth 15M then you must be able to rent it out at least P125000 a month. My concern is that you will have a limited market of people who can afford that amount. You will then have more months where you will have no tenants.

If I can invest 15M I would rather buy five 1-bedroom units in SOMA. The price is around 3M so you have to rent it out for P25,000 a month. The going rate right now in FBGC is about 30,000 for a studio. I think it would be easier to find 5 tenants that can afford 25,000 than to find 1 than can afford 125,000.

If I have to exit my investment it would be easier to sell 1 unit at a time than to find a buyer for a 15m condo.

:)

An example of a quote I got from Eastwood for a studio, back in 2004:
(In-house zero pct. financing thru Megaworld. Also, the monthly requires 10 post-dated checks)

CONDO PRESELLING PRICE: 2,667,873.60 (Turnover 2008)
1) Reservation 25,000.00
2) 10% Downpayment 229,721.60
3) 8% Installment Payment (10 mths) 214,502.40
4) 10% Installment Payment (10 mths) 268,128.00
5) 12% Installment Payment (10 mths) 321,753.60
6) 14% Installment Payment (10 mths) 375,379.20
7) 16% Installment Payment (10 mths) 429,004.80
8) Last 30% Payment (on turover date) 804,384.00

OPTION 2:
10% downpayment - 5%discount on Dp - Reservation 25,000.00 = Net Downpayment
5% Monthly amortization Payable in 10 Months
6% Monthly Amortization Payable in 10 Months
8% Monthly Amortization Payable in 10 months
10% Monthly Amortization Payable in 10 months
11% Monthly Amortization Payable in 10 months

5% Lumpsum Payments (10th month, 20th month, 30th month, 40th month)

30% Payable upon turn-over

^^ Yup just like what I was thinking too, if I have P15M to invest that is! Hehehe... :)

^^actually the rental price in essensa is around 125k a month from what I remember. depending on the actual property of course.

anyway people investing and then prices going down is exactly my point. hindsight is 20-20 all those people thought this was a good deal and idea, 10 years later we know better. but if the asian crisis did not happen perhaps it would have been different!

anyway here's a little something from the tribune about this foreigners investing in the phil.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/19/news/rebuyphil.php

Philippines is a catch, if you can
By Alex Frew McMillan International Herald Tribune

FRIDAY, JANUARY 20, 2006

Mark Walters felt he was doing pretty well for himself as an electrician in London. He had nice cars and summer holidays. He enjoyed going out with friends on his days off.

Then one of those friends died from a heart attack at the age of 37. That hit home for Walters, 42, and his wife, Stella. They had discussed making a break for sunnier climes - at some distant point in the future.

"You start to think, 'Goodness me, what am I waiting for?' Wait 'til I'm 65, and who knows if I'm going to get there?" Walters recalled. So a little more than a year ago, they sold their house and left for the Philippines, Stella's homeland.

They now own four upscale condominiums in central Manila, and plan to rent three of them and live off the proceeds. "So far so good - we're certainly enjoying ourselves," Walters said. "The weather is always on your side, and the people here are very warm and very welcoming."

With 7,100 islands and year-round tropical sun, there is a lot of attractive property in the Philippines. It also is cheap, especially in comparison to Western prices. Throw in a low cost of living and a population that for the most part speaks excellent English, and the Philippines starts looking like a pretty attractive vacation home or retirement destination.

The problem is, the country's Constitution says you have to be a citizen to buy.

However, there are various means by which noncitizens can hold property in the Philippines.

The most common way is a corporate structure. Corporations can own land, so long as Filipino citizens own 60 percent of the company; the rest can be owned by a foreign partner or partners. The arrangement makes it particularly easy for foreigners to buy condominiums, as long as they don't compose more than 40 percent of a building's ownership.

As a result, Walters owns two of his properties in his own name. He has put the other two in his wife's name, a common practice but one that can cause problems in the event of a divorce.

Foreigners cannot claim citizenship in the Philippines without renouncing their original nationalities. Hardly any do.

But people of Filipino descent may be able to claim dual citizenship and, with it, the right to buy land. And even natural born Filipinos who have lost or given up their citizenship can own as much as 5,000 square meters, or about 54,000 square feet, in an urban development or three hectares, or 7.4 acres, in the countryside.

As a result, it is increasingly popular for overseas Filipinos to invest back home.

The expatriate Filipino population is global and extensive, but centered in the United States. Big developers like Ayala Land, Megaworld and Rockwell Land have started advertising their developments in major U.S. cities, trying to attract investment from the Balikbayans, the Filipino word for nationals who live abroad permanently.

Foreigners without local blood ties who want to make purchases other than condos must get more creative. Sometimes they fall back on a variation of the corporate structure: The foreign partner makes an off-the-books arrangement with local "owners."

"Basically you can set up a Philippines corporation, have your lawyers or Filipino friends as 1 percent owners, but in reality the entire money is foreign," said Monique Pronove, managing director for Pronove Tai & Associates property consultants. However, there are laws explicitly aimed at preventing such dummy partnerships.

"The reality is, yes, you can do it," Pronove said. "But I would rather, if you are my client, that you be safe and do it legally and own condominium properties. And anyway, it is easier as well."

Some foreigners have managed to secure beachfront property legally, through the use of 25-year leases, often with automatic renewals. This is particularly common on the popular resort island of Boracay, where Germans pioneered the resort trade and there are many properties in foreign hands. The lease holders then are free to build homes, although eventually the ground can be sold out from under them.

For the most part, though, foreign interest is centered on high-end condo developments in Manila's best neighborhoods. There are some condo projects in Cebu, the country's second city, but almost none elsewhere.

John Riad, chief executive of the online real-estate brokerage HousingInteractive.com, said he specialized in condos in the Makati, Rockwell and Fort Bonifacio neighborhoods, the most exclusive parts of Manila.

"Condos are very cheap compared to any country in Asia, probably the cheapest," Riad wrote in an e-mail.

Walters said he and his wife have paid around 4 million pesos, or $77,000, for one-bedroom condos in a complex with a gym, a swimming pool and 24-hour security. At the top end, a three- or four-bedroom apartment in Fort Bonifacio or the Greenbelt, another popular area, could be expected to sell for 21 million to 30 million pesos.

The relatively low prices lead to strong rental yields. Walters is hoping to generate an annual return of 10 percent on the properties he owns, enough for the couple to live on.

But Riad, like many other people doing business in the Philippines, lamented that the country's poor reputation for bribery, corruption and unreliable infrastructure has pushed it way behind regional rivals like Thailand in attracting foreign investment, even though the potential is similar.

Very few home buyers get mortgages in the Philippines. Banks can finance as much as 70 percent of a property's purchase price, but interest rates approach 12 percent, so most buyersFRIDAY, JANUARY 20, 2006
Mark Walters felt he was doing pretty well for himself as an electrician in London. He had nice cars and summer holidays. He enjoyed going out with friends on his days off.

Then one of those friends died from a heart attack at the age of 37. That hit home for Walters, 42, and his wife, Stella. They had discussed making a break for sunnier climes - at some distant point in the future.

"You start to think, 'Goodness me, what am I waiting for?' Wait 'til I'm 65, and who knows if I'm going to get there?" Walters recalled. So a little more than a year ago, they sold their house and left for the Philippines, Stella's homeland.

They now own four upscale condominiums in central Manila, and plan to rent three of them and live off the proceeds. "So far so good - we're certainly enjoying ourselves," Walters said. "The weather is always on your side, and the people here are very warm and very welcoming."

With 7,100 islands and year-round tropical sun, there is a lot of attractive property in the Philippines. It also is cheap, especially in comparison to Western prices. Throw in a low cost of living and a population that for the most part speaks excellent English, and the Philippines starts looking like a pretty attractive vacation home or retirement destination.

The problem is, the country's Constitution says you have to be a citizen to buy.

However, there are various means by which noncitizens can hold property in the Philippines.

The most common way is a corporate structure. Corporations can own land, so long as Filipino citizens own 60 percent of the company; the rest can be owned by a foreign partner or partners. The arrangement makes it particularly easy for foreigners to buy condominiums, as long as they don't compose more than 40 percent of a building's ownership.

As a result, Walters owns two of his properties in his own name. He has put the other two in his wife's name, a common practice but one that can cause problems in the event of a divorce.

Foreigners cannot claim citizenship in the Philippines without renouncing their original nationalities. Hardly any do.

But people of Filipino descent may be able to claim dual citizenship and, with it, the right to buy land. And even natural born Filipinos who have lost or given up their citizenship can own as much as 5,000 square meters, or about 54,000 square feet, in an urban development or three hectares, or 7.4 acres, in the countryside.

As a result, it is increasingly popular for overseas Filipinos to invest back home.

The expatriate Filipino population is global and extensive, but centered in the United States. Big developers like Ayala Land, Megaworld and Rockwell Land have started advertising their developments in major U.S. cities, trying to attract investment from the Balikbayans, the Filipino word for nationals who live abroad permanently.

Foreigners without local blood ties who want to make purchases other than condos must get more creative. Sometimes they fall back on a variation of the corporate structure: The foreign partner makes an off-the-books arrangement with local "owners."

"Basically you can set up a Philippines corporation, have your lawyers or Filipino friends as 1 percent owners, but in reality the entire money is foreign," said Monique Pronove, managing director for Pronove Tai & Associates property consultants. However, there are laws explicitly aimed at preventing such dummy partnerships.

"The reality is, yes, you can do it," Pronove said. "But I would rather, if you are my client, that you be safe and do it legally and own condominium properties. And anyway, it is easier as well."

Some foreigners have managed to secure beachfront property legally, through the use of 25-year leases, often with automatic renewals. This is particularly common on the popular resort island of Boracay, where Germans pioneered the resort trade and there are many properties in foreign hands. The lease holders then are free to build homes, although eventually the ground can be sold out from under them.

For the most part, though, foreign interest is centered on high-end condo developments in Manila's best neighborhoods. There are some condo projects in Cebu, the country's second city, but almost none elsewhere.

John Riad, chief executive of the online real-estate brokerage HousingInteractive.com, said he specialized in condos in the Makati, Rockwell and Fort Bonifacio neighborhoods, the most exclusive parts of Manila.

"Condos are very cheap compared to any country in Asia, probably the cheapest," Riad wrote in an e-mail.

Walters said he and his wife have paid around 4 million pesos, or $77,000, for one-bedroom condos in a complex with a gym, a swimming pool and 24-hour security. At the top end, a three- or four-bedroom apartment in Fort Bonifacio or the Greenbelt, another popular area, could be expected to sell for 21 million to 30 million pesos.

The relatively low prices lead to strong rental yields. Walters is hoping to generate an annual return of 10 percent on the properties he owns, enough for the couple to live on.

But Riad, like many other people doing business in the Philippines, lamented that the country's poor reputation for bribery, corruption and unreliable infrastructure has pushed it way behind regional rivals like Thailand in attracting foreign investment, even though the potential is similar.

Very few home buyers get mortgages in the Philippines. Banks can finance as much as 70 percent of a property's purchase price, but interest rates approach 12 percent, so most buyers pay in full and in cash.

Buyers should expect to pay a value added tax of 12 percent of the purchase price, another 1.5 percent in stamp duty, a half a percentage point in transfer fees and a little more for title registration.

Brokers are not required, but they can help navigate the many property pitfalls in the Philippines, which certainly has its fair share of traditions and superstitions.

The Philippines, the only predominantly Catholic country in Asia, is a mixture of Spanish, American, Chinese and Pinoy - or traditional Filipino - influences. The blend has produced a country and a people that sometimes seem to have more in common with Central America than with Southeast Asian neighbors.

When it comes to property, the Chinese influence is strong, mostly because Chinese merchants traditionally played a significant role in the local business scene and property market.

Zenaida Seva, a Manila-based astrologer, said that dominance had brought feng shui into general use. So, Seva said, it is important that a property not be in a "tumbok," or dead end, that will block the flow of energy or have an "estero," a still creek or pool of stagnant water behind it. Somebody who doesn't believe in the feng shui principles of fateful energy may be able to get a bargain in such circumstances, but rental or resale might be tough.

Also, it is a uniquely Filipino superstition that prospective buyers should inspect a lot for small mounds of earth or hillocks. They may be the calling cards of a "Nuno sa Punso," a type of earth spirit akin to a gnome or dwarf.

"It's O.K. to have them, but they should not be disturbed," Seva said. "These gnomes or dwarves may bring wealth, but they should be respected. Permission must be asked when passing by their hillocks."

Last among the Filipino traditions are the delays, a modern invention. The Philippines bureaucracy is extensive and often unorganized, so it is quite common to make an under-the-table payment to speed a title application or to secure a construction permit. But such bribery is done on a small scale and is not necessary if you are willing to wait. And wait.

Some Filipinos consider taking one's time to be a national trait. For example, Walters says he got a 20 percent discount to buy two properties in a Megaworld development. They were supposed to be ready last June, then in July. He finally took possession in mid-January, more than six months later, but they still need work.

"It's just a headache - you've got to be patient," Walters said. "We got a good discount, but that has been wiped out by the loss of rental. I would have been better off buying something directly and renting it immediately."

But Walters says the lifestyle that he and his wife enjoy have made all the effort worthwhile.

"Once the other apartments are up and running, I can literally go and spend a couple of weeks every month at the beach if I want," he said. "If you put in a bit of money, you can have a very good standard of living."


Mark Walters felt he was doing pretty well for himself as an electrician in London. He had nice cars and summer holidays. He enjoyed going out with friends on his days off.

Then one of those friends died from a heart attack at the age of 37. That hit home for Walters, 42, and his wife, Stella. They had discussed making a break for sunnier climes - at some distant point in the future.

"You start to think, 'Goodness me, what am I waiting for?' Wait 'til I'm 65, and who knows if I'm going to get there?" Walters recalled. So a little more than a year ago, they sold their house and left for the Philippines, Stella's homeland.

They now own four upscale condominiums in central Manila, and plan to rent three of them and live off the proceeds. "So far so good - we're certainly enjoying ourselves," Walters said. "The weather is always on your side, and the people here are very warm and very welcoming."

With 7,100 islands and year-round tropical sun, there is a lot of attractive property in the Philippines. It also is cheap, especially in comparison to Western prices. Throw in a low cost of living and a population that for the most part speaks excellent English, and the Philippines starts looking like a pretty attractive vacation home or retirement destination.

The problem is, the country's Constitution says you have to be a citizen to buy.

However, there are various means by which noncitizens can hold property in the Philippines.

The most common way is a corporate structure. Corporations can own land, so long as Filipino citizens own 60 percent of the company; the rest can be owned by a foreign partner or partners. The arrangement makes it particularly easy for foreigners to buy condominiums, as long as they don't compose more than 40 percent of a building's ownership.

As a result, Walters owns two of his properties in his own name. He has put the other two in his wife's name, a common practice but one that can cause problems in the event of a divorce.

Foreigners cannot claim citizenship in the Philippines without renouncing their original nationalities. Hardly any do.

But people of Filipino descent may be able to claim dual citizenship and, with it, the right to buy land. And even natural born Filipinos who have lost or given up their citizenship can own as much as 5,000 square meters, or about 54,000 square feet, in an urban development or three hectares, or 7.4 acres, in the countryside.

As a result, it is increasingly popular for overseas Filipinos to invest back home.

The expatriate Filipino population is global and extensive, but centered in the United States. Big developers like Ayala Land, Megaworld and Rockwell Land have started advertising their developments in major U.S. cities, trying to attract investment from the Balikbayans, the Filipino word for nationals who live abroad permanently.

Foreigners without local blood ties who want to make purchases other than condos must get more creative. Sometimes they fall back on a variation of the corporate structure: The foreign partner makes an off-the-books arrangement with local "owners."

"Basically you can set up a Philippines corporation, have your lawyers or Filipino friends as 1 percent owners, but in reality the entire money is foreign," said Monique Pronove, managing director for Pronove Tai & Associates property consultants. However, there are laws explicitly aimed at preventing such dummy partnerships.

"The reality is, yes, you can do it," Pronove said. "But I would rather, if you are my client, that you be safe and do it legally and own condominium properties. And anyway, it is easier as well."

Some foreigners have managed to secure beachfront property legally, through the use of 25-year leases, often with automatic renewals. This is particularly common on the popular resort island of Boracay, where Germans pioneered the resort trade and there are many properties in foreign hands. The lease holders then are free to build homes, although eventually the ground can be sold out from under them.

For the most part, though, foreign interest is centered on high-end condo developments in Manila's best neighborhoods. There are some condo projects in Cebu, the country's second city, but almost none elsewhere.

John Riad, chief executive of the online real-estate brokerage HousingInteractive.com, said he specialized in condos in the Makati, Rockwell and Fort Bonifacio neighborhoods, the most exclusive parts of Manila.

"Condos are very cheap compared to any country in Asia, probably the cheapest," Riad wrote in an e-mail.

Walters said he and his wife have paid around 4 million pesos, or $77,000, for one-bedroom condos in a complex with a gym, a swimming pool and 24-hour security. At the top end, a three- or four-bedroom apartment in Fort Bonifacio or the Greenbelt, another popular area, could be expected to sell for 21 million to 30 million pesos.

The relatively low prices lead to strong rental yields. Walters is hoping to generate an annual return of 10 percent on the properties he owns, enough for the couple to live on.

But Riad, like many other people doing business in the Philippines, lamented that the country's poor reputation for bribery, corruption and unreliable infrastructure has pushed it way behind regional rivals like Thailand in attracting foreign investment, even though the potential is similar.

Very few home buyers get mortgages in the Philippines. Banks can finance as much as 70 percent of a property's purchase price, but interest rates approach 12 percent, so most buyers pay in full and in cash.

Buyers should expect to pay a value added tax of 12 percent of the purchase price, another 1.5 percent in stamp duty, a half a percentage point in transfer fees and a little more for title registration.

Brokers are not required, but they can help navigate the many property pitfalls in the Philippines, which certainly has its fair share of traditions and superstitions.

The Philippines, the only predominantly Catholic country in Asia, is a mixture of Spanish, American, Chinese and Pinoy - or traditional Filipino - influences. The blend has produced a country and a people that sometimes seem to have more in common with Central America than with Southeast Asian neighbors.

When it comes to property, the Chinese influence is strong, mostly because Chinese merchants traditionally played a significant role in the local business scene and property market.

Zenaida Seva, a Manila-based astrologer, said that dominance had brought feng shui into general use. So, Seva said, it is important that a property not be in a "tumbok," or dead end, that will block the flow of energy or have an "estero," a still creek or pool of stagnant water behind it. Somebody who doesn't believe in the feng shui principles of fateful energy may be able to get a bargain in such circumstances, but rental or resale might be tough.

Also, it is a uniquely Filipino superstition that prospective buyers should inspect a lot for small mounds of earth or hillocks. They may be the calling cards of a "Nuno sa Punso," a type of earth spirit akin to a gnome or dwarf.

"It's O.K. to have them, but they should not be disturbed," Seva said. "These gnomes or dwarves may bring wealth, but they should be respected. Permission must be asked when passing by their hillocks."

Last among the Filipino traditions are the delays, a modern invention. The Philippines bureaucracy is extensive and often unorganized, so it is quite common to make an under-the-table payment to speed a title application or to secure a construction permit. But such bribery is done on a small scale and is not necessary if you are willing to wait. And wait.

Some Filipinos consider taking one's time to be a national trait. For example, Walters says he got a 20 percent discount to buy two properties in a Megaworld development. They were supposed to be ready last June, then in July. He finally took possession in mid-January, more than six months later, but they still need work.

"It's just a headache - you've got to be patient," Walters said. "We got a good discount, but that has been wiped out by the loss of rental. I would have been better off buying something directly and renting it immediately."

But Walters says the lifestyle that he and his wife enjoy have made all the effort worthwhile.

"Once the other apartments are up and running, I can literally go and spend a couple of weeks every month at the beach if I want," he said. "If you put in a bit of money, you can have a very good standard of living."

Thanks Bustero for this very informative article. I'm sure many of our Balikbayan kababayans can relate to this... :)

here's a little something from the tribune about this foreigners investing in the phil.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/19/news/rebuyphil.php

Philippines is a catch, if you can
By Alex Frew McMillan International Herald Tribune

FRIDAY, JANUARY 20, 2006

Mark Walters felt he was doing pretty well for himself as an electrician in London. He had nice cars and summer holidays. He enjoyed going out with friends on his days off.

Then one of those friends died from a heart attack at the age of 37. That hit home for Walters, 42, and his wife, Stella. They had discussed making a break for sunnier climes - at some distant point in the future.

"You start to think, 'Goodness me, what am I waiting for?' Wait 'til I'm 65, and who knows if I'm going to get there?" Walters recalled. So a little more than a year ago, they sold their house and left for the Philippines, Stella's homeland.

They now own four upscale condominiums in central Manila, and plan to rent three of them and live off the proceeds. "So far so good - we're certainly enjoying ourselves," Walters said. "The weather is always on your side, and the people here are very warm and very welcoming."

With 7,100 islands and year-round tropical sun, there is a lot of attractive property in the Philippines. It also is cheap, especially in comparison to Western prices. Throw in a low cost of living and a population that for the most part speaks excellent English, and the Philippines starts looking like a pretty attractive vacation home or retirement destination.

The problem is, the country's Constitution says you have to be a citizen to buy.

However, there are various means by which noncitizens can hold property in the Philippines.

The most common way is a corporate structure. Corporations can own land, so long as Filipino citizens own 60 percent of the company; the rest can be owned by a foreign partner or partners. The arrangement makes it particularly easy for foreigners to buy condominiums, as long as they don't compose more than 40 percent of a building's ownership.

As a result, Walters owns two of his properties in his own name. He has put the other two in his wife's name, a common practice but one that can cause problems in the event of a divorce.

Foreigners cannot claim citizenship in the Philippines without renouncing their original nationalities. Hardly any do.

But people of Filipino descent may be able to claim dual citizenship and, with it, the right to buy land. And even natural born Filipinos who have lost or given up their citizenship can own as much as 5,000 square meters, or about 54,000 square feet, in an urban development or three hectares, or 7.4 acres, in the countryside.

As a result, it is increasingly popular for overseas Filipinos to invest back home.

The expatriate Filipino population is global and extensive, but centered in the United States. Big developers like Ayala Land, Megaworld and Rockwell Land have started advertising their developments in major U.S. cities, trying to attract investment from the Balikbayans, the Filipino word for nationals who live abroad permanently.

Foreigners without local blood ties who want to make purchases other than condos must get more creative. Sometimes they fall back on a variation of the corporate structure: The foreign partner makes an off-the-books arrangement with local "owners."

"Basically you can set up a Philippines corporation, have your lawyers or Filipino friends as 1 percent owners, but in reality the entire money is foreign," said Monique Pronove, managing director for Pronove Tai & Associates property consultants. However, there are laws explicitly aimed at preventing such dummy partnerships.

"The reality is, yes, you can do it," Pronove said. "But I would rather, if you are my client, that you be safe and do it legally and own condominium properties. And anyway, it is easier as well."

Some foreigners have managed to secure beachfront property legally, through the use of 25-year leases, often with automatic renewals. This is particularly common on the popular resort island of Boracay, where Germans pioneered the resort trade and there are many properties in foreign hands. The lease holders then are free to build homes, although eventually the ground can be sold out from under them.

For the most part, though, foreign interest is centered on high-end condo developments in Manila's best neighborhoods. There are some condo projects in Cebu, the country's second city, but almost none elsewhere.

John Riad, chief executive of the online real-estate brokerage HousingInteractive.com, said he specialized in condos in the Makati, Rockwell and Fort Bonifacio neighborhoods, the most exclusive parts of Manila.

"Condos are very cheap compared to any country in Asia, probably the cheapest," Riad wrote in an e-mail.

Walters said he and his wife have paid around 4 million pesos, or $77,000, for one-bedroom condos in a complex with a gym, a swimming pool and 24-hour security. At the top end, a three- or four-bedroom apartment in Fort Bonifacio or the Greenbelt, another popular area, could be expected to sell for 21 million to 30 million pesos.

The relatively low prices lead to strong rental yields. Walters is hoping to generate an annual return of 10 percent on the properties he owns, enough for the couple to live on.

But Riad, like many other people doing business in the Philippines, lamented that the country's poor reputation for bribery, corruption and unreliable infrastructure has pushed it way behind regional rivals like Thailand in attracting foreign investment, even though the potential is similar.

Very few home buyers get mortgages in the Philippines. Banks can finance as much as 70 percent of a property's purchase price, but interest rates approach 12 percent, so most buyers pay in full and in cash.

Buyers should expect to pay a value added tax of 12 percent of the purchase price, another 1.5 percent in stamp duty, a half a percentage point in transfer fees and a little more for title registration.

Brokers are not required, but they can help navigate the many property pitfalls in the Philippines, which certainly has its fair share of traditions and superstitions.

The Philippines, the only predominantly Catholic country in Asia, is a mixture of Spanish, American, Chinese and Pinoy - or traditional Filipino - influences. The blend has produced a country and a people that sometimes seem to have more in common with Central America than with Southeast Asian neighbors.

When it comes to property, the Chinese influence is strong, mostly because Chinese merchants traditionally played a significant role in the local business scene and property market.

Zenaida Seva, a Manila-based astrologer, said that dominance had brought feng shui into general use. So, Seva said, it is important that a property not be in a "tumbok," or dead end, that will block the flow of energy or have an "estero," a still creek or pool of stagnant water behind it. Somebody who doesn't believe in the feng shui principles of fateful energy may be able to get a bargain in such circumstances, but rental or resale might be tough.

Also, it is a uniquely Filipino superstition that prospective buyers should inspect a lot for small mounds of earth or hillocks. They may be the calling cards of a "Nuno sa Punso," a type of earth spirit akin to a gnome or dwarf.

"It's O.K. to have them, but they should not be disturbed," Seva said. "These gnomes or dwarves may bring wealth, but they should be respected. Permission must be asked when passing by their hillocks."

Last among the Filipino traditions are the delays, a modern invention. The Philippines bureaucracy is extensive and often unorganized, so it is quite common to make an under-the-table payment to speed a title application or to secure a construction permit. But such bribery is done on a small scale and is not necessary if you are willing to wait. And wait.

Some Filipinos consider taking one's time to be a national trait. For example, Walters says he got a 20 percent discount to buy two properties in a Megaworld development. They were supposed to be ready last June, then in July. He finally took possession in mid-January, more than six months later, but they still need work.

"It's just a headache - you've got to be patient," Walters said. "We got a good discount, but that has been wiped out by the loss of rental. I would have been better off buying something directly and renting it immediately."

But Walters says the lifestyle that he and his wife enjoy have made all the effort worthwhile.

"Once the other apartments are up and running, I can literally go and spend a couple of weeks every month at the beach if I want," he said. "If you put in a bit of money, you can have a very good standard of living."

Bank Financing is basically the same as Pagibig financing in terms of process. Basically they are trying to assess your credit by analyzing your take home pay stability (do you have a good job, etc).

The difference lies when the property you want them to finance is being offered new by a developer or it is a secondary unit. New units offered by the developers are preappraised thus shortening the whole process. If you put up a unit on your own, it will take a bit more time as you will have to do all the paperwork on your own as opposed to a broker who works for the developer.

I'm not familiar with the exact terms of equitable, I think they would generally be competitive with the others though. Just watch out for the terms of your current loan there may be some sort of pretermination penaly should you want to take out your PagIbig loan or even another banks loan!

Philippine Embassy
News Release
21/Feb/06


E-BULLETIN: GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE PHILIPPINES 01-15 February 2006 Edition, V. I-2


The E-Bulletin: Good News About RP, which highlights positive developments in the country, is released once every two weeks by the Press and Information Section of the Philippine Embassy in Washington, D.C. to its electronic subscribers.

Global Investment Bank Upgrades Forecast For RP’s 2006 Economic Growth


· US global investment bank Lehman Brothers upgraded its 2006 economic growth forecast for the Philippines this year to 5.5 percent from an earlier 5 percent.

· It attributed this upgrade to the rapid improvement in economic fundamentals that created an environment conducive to higher growth.

Peso Continues to Surge

· The peso continued its strong run against the dollar, reaching P51 for the first time in more than three years, closing at P51.910 to the dollar, matching its level on September 12, 2002. The total volume of transaction reached $366.5 million.

· Analysts attributed the peso’s performance to an easing in oil prices on the world market and to the government’s raising of the value-added tax by 2 percentage points to 12 percent at the start of February. At the Philippine Dealing System as of February 9, the peso opened at P52 and closed at P51.910.

US Removes RP From IPR Watch List
· The United States has removed the Philippines from the “priority watch list” of countries that do not properly enforce intellectual property rights (IPR).

· The Philippines last year bolstered implementation of its special legislation against pirated audio and video discs, which included numerous raids on retail stores selling pirated and counterfeit goods. By cracking down on counterfeiters, the Philippines was removed from the US blacklist.

· President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo said this would encourage firms especially software developers to invest in the Philippines



International Credit Rating Agencies Upgrade Outlook on RP


· Fitch Ratings has revised its outlook on the Philippines from “negative” to “stable,” which it attributed to improving fiscal climate and easing political tension.

· The upgraded rating created a reaction to the economy causing the peso to climb to a new three-and-a-half-year high of 51.42 to the dollar in early trading, and thereafter, closing to 51.585.

· Standard and Poor’s also revised its outlook on the country’s sovereign credit rating from “negative” to “stable” citing “improved chances” for fiscal consolidation and stabilization of the country’s debt dynamics.

· S & P’s assessment came in the wake of better-than-expected 2005 fiscal performance and the recent implementation of the expanded value added tax.

· It said its assessment on the Philippines could even rise if government revenues would improve and public sector reforms deepened.

· President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo who was elated over the upgrading of the country’s credit rating said: “The bitter pill we have swallowed is taking effect and is mopping up the structural weakness in the Philippine economy.”

· She further said that the world is also taking notice of the country’s emergent political stability, saying that the country should match the positive credit ratings with better security ratings in the drive for the rule of law and the easing of armed conflict, specifically in southern Philippines.

CalPERS Gives RP Highest Score Ever

· Wilshire Associates, the consulting firm of the California Public Employees Retirement System (CalPERS), gave the Philippines a score of 2.13 -- the highest ever achieved by the country which got a score of 2 in the previous year -- thus, improving the country’s stand as a permissible investment destination.

· The score increased the Philippines’ ranking among 26 other emerging markets, moving the country from number 18 in 2005, to 14 in 2006, besting Malaysia, China, Russia and India.

Business Expectations Survey (BES)
· Businessmen are optimistic about their first and second quarter prospects this year. The latest Business Expectations Survey (BES) conducted by Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas revealed that positive sentiments picked up dramatically compared to last year when businessmen were asked about their economic and business outlook for the first and second quarter.

· There was a buildup of optimism towards the second quarter. The index was up at 23.4 percent for the first quarter and went dramatically higher to 37.2 percent for the second quarter.

Makati Business Club
· Members of the Makati Business Club (MBC) are optimistic about the economy citing its bi-annual Executive Outlook Survey (EOS) conducted in January among 94 senior business executives (13 percent of its membership), which showed that businessmen see stronger revenues and earnings, making them open to additional investments.

· The survey recorded 48 percent of respondents expecting the economy to grow faster in 2006 than the 5.1 percent growth in 2005 while about 43 and 52 percent, respectively, see inflation and interest rates staying at 2005 levels.


· President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo expressed her appreciation for the business sector’s solid outlook on the economy, saying her administration will match growing confidence by the “stronger resolve to fight corruption, forge national unity, uphold the politics of performance and drive charter reform forward.”

Anti-Graft And Corruption Campaign

· The Department of Finance (DOF) charged before the Office of the Ombudsman, Marina de Guzman, chief revenue officer of BIR Region 7 in Quezon City, for unexplained wealth, in violation of provisions of the Anti-graft and Corrupt Practices Act.

· Finance Undersecretary Gaudencio Mendoza Jr. said the case was filed through the Revenue Integrity Protection Service, an inter-agency anti-graft body formed to serve as an internal watchdog against corrupt revenue officials. He said that De Guzman’s net worth increased steadily from P1.8 million in 1994 to P11.4 million in 2004 based from her assets, liabilities and net worth.

· The penalty for these violations could range from removal from office, perpetual disqualification to hold public office and forfeiture of properties in favor of the government. It could also include imprisonment of not less than six months and up to 14 years.

· Earlier, the DOF dismissed seven government officials including five revenue collectors on charges of grave misconduct, dishonesty and other offenses.

· The dismissals came as foreign credit rating agencies said the Arroyo administration needed to do more to demonstrate that it was capable of delivering its target revenue collection, balancing the national budget and ultimately reducing public sector debt to manageable levels.

· Affirming an earlier decision by the Bureau of Internal Revenue and the Bureau of Local Government Finance, the DOF said that it had also dismissed five BIR collectors, a BIR lawyer and a municipal treasurer.

· Dismissed from service were revenue collection officers Ferdinand Magallanes (Tuguegarao, Cagayan); Jolynda Frio (Iloilo City); Mario Bermejo (Calbirga and Pinabacdao, Western Samar); Habib Wahab (Pagalungan, Maguindanao); and Dina Neri (Cebu City).

Increase in Customs Revenue Collection

· Collections of the Bureau of Customs (BOC) in January rose 17.01 percent to P12.38 billion, which is P1.8 billion higher than last year’s January, which is attributed to enhanced revenue measures

Foreign Investments
· Foreign money entering the Philippines for the establishment of new businesses or the expansion of existing ones rose in the first 11 months of 2005, with inflows exceeding outflows arising from the remittance of profits and other transfers.

· Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas said net inflows of foreign direct investments (FDI) as of end-November reached $1.1 billion, rising 70 percent from $624 million during the same period the year before. For November alone, net FDI inflows posted a year-on-year growth of 140.5 percent to hit $178 million.

· Korean corporate giant, Hanjin, will invest $1 billion on a shipyard facility at the Subic Freeport Zone paving the way for the creation of 15,000 jobs for Filipinos and boosting of the government’s fight against poverty.


· Nasdaq-listed AMI Semiconductor, Inc. (AMIS) opened its new $30 million facility in Calamba, Laguna transferring an estimated 85% of its test assembly and manufacturing operations in the US and Belgium to the Philippines. The transfer is part of the company’s global decision to tap the country for a bigger role in its business strategy.

· Press Secretary Ignacio Bunye said it is important to note that the outside world is focused on the Philippine economy and not on the noise of Philippine politics, which is aligned with our prime focus on investments and jobs.


Funds Released For Pro-Poor Programs

· President Arroyo released a total of P11.5 billion in January 2006 to finance various pro-poor programs like education, housing, food, health and public works, which are intended to pump prime the economy and bring the dividends of growth to the masses.

· The pump-priming fund includes: P5 billion for the Philippine Defense Reform, P500 million for the farm to market road, P500 million for flood mitigations, P1 billion for the Northrail-Southrail linkage project, P500 million for the Social Housing Finance Corporation, P500 million for the half-priced medicine project, P500 million for the PhilHealth health insurance program, P500 million for the National Food Authority (NFA) food program, P500 million for airports development. P500 million for the construction of school buildings, P500 million for high school vouchers, P500 million for the Food-for-School projects and another P500 million for the Barangay and Street Electrification program.

NAIA Security System To Be On Par With International Terminals

· The Manila International Airport Authority (MIAA) is embarking on a two-year, P1.25 billion, medium term plan to upgrade the Ninoy Aquino International Airport’s (NAIA) security system in preparation for the planned transfer to the NAIA 3.

· The system would be comparable to those of other international terminals in Asia, if not the world. One special item being installed is a special “intelligent” identification card (ID) that would be worn by all who work at the airport which would enable authorities to track their movements and location within the airport premises.

Napocor Breaks Even In 2005

· National Power Corporation has wiped out its losses to break even in 2005, which could be attributed to its continuing effort to bring down the use of imported fossil fuel, as well as the strengthening of the peso against the US dollar and the Japanese yen, which had helped in trimming down the company’s losses last year.

Geothermal Plant Under Construction in Negros

· The government is expected to earn around P2 billion annually from the Northern Negros geothermal power plant now undergoing construction near the Mt. Kanlaon National Park in Bago City.

All-Filipino Owned Hotel Chain Hits Asian Market

· All-Filipino owned and managed hotel chain Legend Hotels International (LHI) Corporation is stepping up the plate of Asian tourism.

· It took a swing at the global market with its first-time participation in the ASEAN Tourism Forum 2006 in Davao City, driven by its core strength as a super-value hotel chain.

Bicol Airport to Be Converted to International Airport

· President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo told Bicolanos that the Legazpi City Airport will be privatized to pave the way for its conversion to an international airport as part of the government’s tourism and economic development program for Bicolandia.

Court of Appeals Orders Disposal of Case Backlogs

· Court of Appeals presiding Justice Ruben Reyes ordered justices at the appellate court to dispose of some 10,000 unresolved cases within the year so they will have no backlog by the year 2007.

EU Grant To Boost Use of Renewable Energy/Biogas Technology

· The European commission (EC)-Asean Energy Facility has approved grants worth P35.2 million (400,000 euros) for International Resources Group-Philippines to help boost the use of renewable energy sources in the country.

· The facility will rely on a solid waste management system using experiences of European and Asean countries in the use if biogas technology. An estimated 6,000 households will become end users of biogas technology.

Middle East Asian Carrier Flies to RP

· Etihad Airways, the national carrier of the United Arab Emirates (UAE), started flying into RP with its inaugural flight landing on Feb. 13 at the Ninoy Aquino International Airport. The Arab carrier seeks to take a share of the estimated 200,000 Filipino nationals based in the UAE who go back to Manila, as well as the thousands of other nationalities in demand of air service to Manila to Abu Dhabi and vice versa.

If you buy a property worth 15M then you must be able to rent it out at least P125000 a month. My concern is that you will have a limited market of people who can afford that amount. You will then have more months where you will have no tenants.

If I can invest 15M I would rather buy five 1-bedroom units in SOMA. The price is around 3M so you have to rent it out for P25,000 a month. The going rate right now in FBGC is about 30,000 for a studio. I think it would be easier to find 5 tenants that can afford 25,000 than to find 1 than can afford 125,000.

If I have to exit my investment it would be easier to sell 1 unit at a time than to find a buyer for a 15m condo.

:)

It really depends on who is your target market. If your target is young professionals then their budget are really limited to P15K to P25K/month for rent. Now if your target are high-end tenants like expats then the rental cost is not a problem for them because somebody else is paying for their rent. That was my reasoning when I finally decided to get a 2 BR unit in Serendra rather than a 1 BR or studio unit. I thought that these expats would really prefer a bigger space than what a 1 BR or studio would offer. I also thought that FBGC is already host to several internationals schools like IS, Japanese school, British schools, and others. Also, big multinational companies are located either in Makati or FBGC. These are all expats.... In fact, the market research from Colliers International says that they are bullish for luxury and bigger units. But since 3 BR is over my budget I went to the 2BR instead. Here is some excerpts from their April 2005 report...

COLLIERS INTERNATIONAL
QUARTERLY RESEARCH REPORT
PHILIPPINES

Philippine Property Market Overview
Market Conditions at April 2005
Market Forecast to April 2006

• Rents for the luxury 3-BR units continued to improve
given the relative paucity of supply in this
segment. In contrast to the significant new supply
of studios and 1-BR units in 2005, the first development
to offer larger configurations in 3BR will be
Shang Tower in 2006.
• Nearly 65% of new supply from 2005 to 2008 are
configured as either a studio or 1-BR. We remain
cautious on the studio and 1-BR residential market.

same reason here....I got a 3 bed-room ...so possible 3 room mates with each having individual bedroom ,and then shared nalang ang living space and the rest.

Yes I agee that it really depends on who your target market will be based on the type of renter(s) your unit is best suited for. I heard either single family homes in exclusive villages or 3 bedroom condo units over 200 SQM (in Rockwell or Makati CBD) are what Expats / Foreign executives normally rent where the going rates usually hit the P100+T/mo range, while 2 bedroom units are usually taken by foreigners or Filipino family type renters between the P40-80T/mo range, while 1 bedroom and studio units are usually rented by younger single professionals between the P20-40T/mo range. Atleast that's what I heard from those in that line of business regarding Makati's condo rental market back then so I don't know if the rental market figures and ranges have changed significantly since then. Anybody have the latest rental market figures for FBGC, Makati and Mandaluyong/Ortigas?

Just when everyone was buzzing that the end of the downward cycle of real estate has ended, and that things are supposed to be picking up,....news of the supposed coup :ohno:

Yes I agee that it really depends on who your target market will be based on the type of renter(s) your unit is best suited for. I heard either single family homes in exclusive villages or 3 bedroom condo units over 200 SQM (in Rockwell or Makati CBD) are what Expats / Foreign executives normally rent where the going rates usually hit the P100+T/mo range, while 2 bedroom units are usually taken by foreigners or Filipino family type renters between the P40-80T/mo range, while 1 bedroom and studio units are usually rented by younger single professionals between the P20-40T/mo range. Atleast that's what I heard from those in that line of business regarding Makati's condo rental market back then so I don't know if the rental market figures and ranges have changed significantly since then. Anybody have the latest rental market figures for FBGC, Makati and Mandaluyong/Ortigas?

I got this one from the Ayala Property Management for Bonifacio Ridge for 2BR with Den, 1 parking, and 113 sqm.

Floor ------------------Price
3rd--------------------80K+D Semi-furnished
5th--------------------80K+D Unfurnished
5th--------------------85K inc. D Semi-furnished
6th--------------------80K inc. D Semi-furnished
6th--------------------80K inc. D Semi-furnished
7th--------------------100K inc. D Furnished
8th--------------------85K inc. D Semi-furnished
8th--------------------85K inc. D Semi-furnished
8th--------------------85K inc. D Semi-furnished
10th--------------------98K inc. D Furnished
10th--------------------Make offer Furnished
10th--------------------85K inc. D Semi-furnished
10th--------------------100K inc. D Furnished
11th--------------------80K+D (Nego) Semi-furnished
11th--------------------100K inc. D Furnished
11th--------------------90K inc. D (Nego) Furnished
11th--------------------50K+D Semi-furnished
12th--------------------90K inc. D (Nego) Furnished
15th--------------------85K+D Furnished
16th--------------------125K+D Furnished
16th--------------------85K inc. D (Nego) Furnished
17th--------------------85K+D Bare
18th--------------------100K Furnished
19th--------------------105K inc. D (Nego) Furnished
19th--------------------100K inc. D Furnished

Thanks Asraz. If these numbers are representative of FBGC's rental rates, it looks like the rental price range for a 100+SQM 3 bedroom or 2 bedroom + den unit in FBGC runs between P80T/mo to P100T/mo (dropping the low of P50T/mo and the high of P125T/mo) which more than meets the 10% annual return criteria for investment properties. That's actually very good news as it is now starting to catch up with Makati rental rates. Ang dami nga lang units for rent which makes me wonder if the competition will actually bring the rental price downward.

^^don't think there is substantial reason to be so glum yet, let's let the weekend digest, am sure next week will see a clearer picture

Have a friend who has a 3 bedroom in one roxas, it's now down to 120K/month, this is supposed to be the most expensive building in the country right now.

Mmmm this is interesting... I'm quite confused now. Does this mean that rental prices are rising in FBGC and catching up with Makati where it is slightly dipping due to market correction or is there actually a general softness in the rental market in Metro Manila / Philippines? Medyo conflicting lang kasi yung feedback with FBGC seemingly quite rosy in Asraz's post while Makati naman not so rosy with Bustero's. In all probability it may very well be somewhere in the middle as the market is indeed dynamic but just want to get a vibe (trending baga) of the actual rental market condition/sentiment especially under all this political/economic turmoil happening...
After all rental prices are just asking prices pero kung wala naman masyadong nagrerent eh mababakante pa rin malamang ang mga iyon di ba?

3cr, azras, bustero, macky and whoever wants to join in,

Here's the deal, imagine a long lost uncle died and he gives you an inheritance of 15 million pesos. The catch is that you have to spend it all in a property or properties only in FBGC. You cannot re-sell the properties once you bought it and you have to spend the whole amount within a month.

How would you spend the 15 million?

^^if purely for investment, i'd have to get units at South of Market, Icon, and Hampton Place.

When looking at the overall income producing opportunity for a particular condo property, there are two main factors to consider: What is the overall appreciation potential and what has good rental appeal. These two factors do not necessarily compliment each other, but each on its own could provide a nice return. No one can predict future appreciation or rental demand for a particular property. Only general guidance can be given based on trends and current market forces.

One thing to remember is the amount of rent charged for a particular property vs. its market value + its annual carrying costs (fees, taxes, maintenance), is more or less consistent throughout the area. So the question of "How much will it rent for?" is not as important as the prospects that it rents well.

^^ very well said :applause:

I would buy three units in SOma and rent it out.

ha ha. do your research SOMA is not your typical "condo" . . . you'ld be lucky to rent out even a single SOMA unit w/o a Supreme Court decision. :)


I would buy three units in SOma and rent it out.

3cr, azras, bustero, macky and whoever wants to join in,

Here's the deal, imagine a long lost uncle died and he gives you an inheritance of 15 million pesos. The catch is that you have to spend it all in a property or properties only in FBGC. You cannot re-sell the properties once you bought it and you have to spend the whole amount within a month.

How would you spend the 15 million?


Oddvertising,

Forget residential condo, for that amount i will get one good size commercial space at the podium.

ha ha. do your research SOMA is not your typical "condo" . . . you'ld be lucky to rent out even a single SOMA unit w/o a Supreme Court decision. :)

this is what i like about our forum. lots of input from the participants which you normally wouldn't get from ordinary channels.

thank you very much @sedna! :)

why is it because SOma is a coop you need permission fr other owners before you can rent it out? Well you can do it under the table i guess.

no worries, sugarboy. you should teach me how to play golf one day and show me the best greens outside MM :)

this is what i like about our forum. lots of input from the participants which you normally wouldn't get from ordinary channels.
thank you very much @sedna! :)


As lili once said she is on a SPAMsilog diet and also to save on bandwith the answers to your question lies buried under the threads of SOMA. :)

why is it because SOma is a coop you need permission fr other owners before you can rent it out? Well you can do it under the table i guess.

no worries, sugarboy. you should teach me how to play golf one day and show me the best greens outside MM :)

am working hard on my golf too. i lost a lot of time just by being cooped up in a high-rise office for so many years.

no worries, sugarboy. you should teach me how to play golf one day and show me the best greens outside MM :)




As lili once said she is on a SPAMsilog diet and also to save on bandwith the answers to your question lies buried under the threads of SOMA. :)
sorry i don't have time to research all that backlog. :)

3cr, azras, bustero, macky and whoever wants to join in,

Here's the deal, imagine a long lost uncle died and he gives you an inheritance of 15 million pesos. The catch is that you have to spend it all in a property or properties only in FBGC. You cannot re-sell the properties once you bought it and you have to spend the whole amount within a month.

How would you spend the 15 million?

Haha I actually wouldn't buy in the fort as I think it's fully priced but since i have to stay within the rules of your game, i'd probably buy land in ayala triangle at the back the japanese school building or look for some original bcda land they want to get rid off and build a condo or hotel or office building depending on the lot.

If this is not allowed (in your game) I'd buy in Pacific Plaza (though am not sure Php 15m will do the trick so I'd need to lever up). The only reason is I think it's the best development in the fort and in the long run all the other new developments can be recreated but you can't get too many golf view lots facing makati. Specially ones with all complete views. Sure rentals are less than 1% of asset price but I think long term capital appreciation will be better (it's only at 50 to 60k per sq.m. ) and more importantly I'd be willing to live in it.

I would not buy anything being presold or under construction just because the primary unit prices are higher than the secondary unit prices, plus the exisitng condo's have instantaneous cashflow as opposed to future delivery.

Isn't Pacific Plaza the most expensive?? I doubt if you could rent out a unit there for 120K/month..

I remember when they started selling them it was at 40M.. then it went down to 20M + a free volvo...

Have a friend who has a 3 bedroom in one roxas, it's now down to 120K/month, this is supposed to be the most expensive building in the country right now.

Thanks a lot guys for playing "my game". You all have given me a lot of things to consider and learn before further investing.

Sedna mentioned that you cannot rent out your units at SOMA, so I asked my broker if that is the case, here is her answer below:

"Soho is not a co-developer katulad din ng Cityland ang Soho ay investors become buyers.Whereas Soma is a co-developers concept, ibig sabihin*investors become co-owner instead of buyer.Kapag co-developers walang EVAT & walang babayaran
Miscellaneous expenses. Ang kaibahan ng SOMA sa*SOHO at ibang condo ay:
1. Cooperative approach-*unit owners are*incorporator of condominium corp.

2. Development manager handles all rental pools at fixed rate. Kapag sinabing rental pool may tatanggaping renta ang unit mo kahit walang tenant. Kung familiar ka sa concept ng camp john hay ng fil-estate ganun yon kaya* lang ang SOMA ay lifetime sa iyo ang unit ang*camp john ay 50 yrs lang lifetime nito after*50 yrs kunin na ng govt.

3.*Funds or kinita ng rental will go into collective depository & disbursing account.
Depende sa pinagkasunduan ng mga members or inverstor or unit owners kung
hatian ng income or kinita ng renta*ay monthly, quarterly, semi-annual or annually.

4. As unit owners pwede rin ang individual rentals kung ayaw mo ilagay sa rental pool kaya lang may mga provisions as of now di pa tapos ang building kaya di ko pa alam ang mga provisions. Ang mga incorporators (corpoation ) ang mag-approve nito.

Isn't Pacific Plaza the most expensive?? I doubt if you could rent out a unit there for 120K/month..

I remember when they started selling them it was at 40M.. then it went down to 20M + a free volvo...


rental prices in pacific plaza went down. Both were equally priced at their start. the big diff is that ali held on to their units and tried leasing them out with great success , while pacific plaza went primarily to so many desperate creditors , that's why it went donw (both buying and renting). Rental prices in pacific plaza should be there, I had a friend who was renting a couple years back at this price, don't forget to add about 40k a month in dues though. this is whether you own the unit or not. what surprised me is that after a while even the rental of one roxas seems to have gone down in price.

3cr, azras, bustero, macky and whoever wants to join in,Here's the deal, imagine a long lost uncle died and he gives you an inheritance of 15 million pesos. The catch is that you have to spend it all in a property or properties only in FBGC. You cannot re-sell the properties once you bought it and you have to spend the whole amount within a month.
How would you spend the 15 million?
Oddvertising,
Sorry for the late reply but here is my suggestion given your parameter:
1.) Since this P15M is for investment units in FBGC, I'd first look into the secondary (resell) market in a condo development already operational before setting my sights on a pre-selling condo units so that one can start renting them out. They are also usually lower priced (price/SQM) than pre-sell units.
2.) I share Bustero's opinion that the Golf course / Makati skyline view facing units are the most desireable acquisitions as they are in limited supply and can not be easily duplicated. This disqualifies great developments like Essensa, and Regent Parkway off the bat which I think are on the expensive side anyway.
3.) I would rather go secure smaller size multi units over 1 large unit as it provides more flexibility in these unstable market conditions.
4.) Having said these, I don't think I can buy multi units in Pacific Plaza as the units there tend to be on the larger cut. Hence I recommend checking out Boni Ridge to see if there are available 2 bedroom units and/or 1 bedroom units (w/ parking ha) facing the golf course. Not sure what the current pricing there but I'm sure P15M can buy atleast 1 maybe 2 units kung parehong 1 bedroom units. Another option is check out developments that are near completion to see if you can still get a good discount for a cash purchase. I remember Geebeng mentioned cash discounts up to 25% during the pre-selling of Megaworld's Bellagio towers. Not sure what kind of discounts are available for Bellagio 1 which is about a year away from turnover but if it would provide atleast a 10% discount I might be willing to invest as the discount will substitute for rent until turn-over 1 year later. Check out Fairways Tower na rin as a 3rd option. Bellagio and Fairways Tower are the only 2 topped-off developments along with the fully operational Pacific Plaza and BoniRidge that have units facing the golf course though there will be some more (like Icon) preselling units in future developments in the last selected lots along Manila Golf. Hence last option to secure golf course units is to check out unit preselling deals offered for cash purchases in Bellagio 2 and perhaps Icon.
5.) Finally when all golf course unit options are tapped out then I would look into units in Hamptons, Kensington and/or Penhurst as well as Ayala's Serendra and Robinson's 5th Avenue. Soma is intriguingly priced but looks like there are too many cumbersome rules that limits flexibility. Regardless of how one proceeds, negotiate hard for cash price discounts or payment plan concessions and son't forget to assess parking requirements for those rental units. Guess that's it. Hope this helps. :)

wow, suspense. how ya goin, lili? :)

^^don't think there is substantial reason to be so glum yet, let's let the weekend digest, am sure next week will see a clearer picture

Therein lies the rub, hopefully the unit owners will find a way to pass resolutions in their favor. It is important unit owners from overseas are well-represented by means of proxy voting. Otherwise the developer(who holds majority shares by their unsold unit inventories) will have other agendas.



4. As unit owners pwede rin ang individual rentals kung ayaw mo ilagay sa rental pool kaya lang may mga provisions as of now di pa tapos ang building kaya di ko pa alam ang mga provisions. Ang mga incorporators (corpoation ) ang mag-approve nito.

...
Sedna mentioned that you cannot rent out your units at SOMA, so I asked my broker if that is the case, here is her answer below:

"Soho is not a co-developer katulad din ng Cityland ang Soho ay investors become buyers.Whereas Soma is a co-developers concept, ibig sabihin*investors become co-owner instead of buyer.Kapag co-developers walang EVAT & walang babayaran
Miscellaneous expenses. Ang kaibahan ng SOMA sa*SOHO at ibang condo ay:
1. Cooperative approach-*unit owners are*incorporator of condominium corp.

2. Development manager handles all rental pools at fixed rate. Kapag sinabing rental pool may tatanggaping renta ang unit mo kahit walang tenant. Kung familiar ka sa concept ng camp john hay ng fil-estate ganun yon kaya* lang ang SOMA ay lifetime sa iyo ang unit ang*camp john ay 50 yrs lang lifetime nito after*50 yrs kunin na ng govt.

3.*Funds or kinita ng rental will go into collective depository & disbursing account.
Depende sa pinagkasunduan ng mga members or inverstor or unit owners kung
hatian ng income or kinita ng renta*ay monthly, quarterly, semi-annual or annually.

4. As unit owners pwede rin ang individual rentals kung ayaw mo ilagay sa rental pool kaya lang may mga provisions as of now di pa tapos ang building kaya di ko pa alam ang mga provisions. Ang mga incorporators (corpoation ) ang mag-approve nito.

SOMA's ownership set-up and the others like them are very complicated for me. That maybe the reason why their prices is lower than Serendra. I just don't like the idea that later on masyadong maraming restrictions kung gusto kong ibenta ang aking unit. That is why I bought into Serendra instead.

Asraz,
Better off ka na talaga sa Serendra since you can't go wrong with an Ayala project. Yeah mukhang marami ngang rules and restrictions; not to mention politicking that will go on sa Soma being a COOP. Tapos ang mahirap pa niyan yung developer siguradong may mga units din which could very well make them majority stake holders (like stockholders) in the development; thus effectively being able to control the rules and covenants of the development to their advantage since may mga agenda rin ang mga yan gaya ng sabi ni Buboy.

SOMA's ownership set-up and the others like them are very complicated for me. That maybe the reason why their prices is lower than Serendra. I just don't like the idea that later on masyadong maraming restrictions kung gusto kong ibenta ang aking unit. That is why I bought into Serendra instead.

Sometimes it's really critical that you read the fine print before you make any decision. This forum is great because you get infos that you would not even know is important till you read about it (Thank you Sedna for mentioning the limitation on renting out SOMA units).

Anyway, I still have not given up on dreaming to become a property investor (sarap mangarap). I'm researching infos on condo rental pool and commercial properties.

I noticed that if a condo project has commercial areas being sold, they are the first ones to be sold out. There must be something good about them to be that desirable.

If any of you guys have any info or experience on joining rental pools and owning commercial areas in condo projects please share it with us. :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/imagesaver1206/ortigas/IMG_0116.jpg Now let's turn our eyes and open wide our floor-to-ceiling windows to the north side of FBGC. Ortigas/Mandaluyong cbd skyline is fast becoming beautifully dense in their glassy modern skyscrapers, to mention a few, like soon to rise St. Francis. Also, from what i heard through the grapevine,it stands and looks taller since it sits atop of on hill. Like a glorious crown jewel, imo,the dazzling beauty of cbd skylines is best appreciated only at night time when it's fully lit. For a bigger sqm, it's probably a good investment too.

delete

I'm so excited to have found this forum that I don't really know how to begin because I have a million questions!

Since coming back from Manila in early Feb, my husband and I have decided to purchase a condo to have a place to stay with our 4 small kids when we visit and have the unit rented out when we're away. Our initial choice was Greenbelt Parkplace because of it's proximity to Greenbelt, etc. We couldn't decide between a 1 bd for the affordability of it or a 2 bd for what we really need. Then I found out about Oriental Gardens which has 1 bd units the same size as a 2bd at Gr. Prplce for cheaper. So we thought, it might be a better deal. There is also Makati Executive Tower that we are considering.

I need to know if anybody knows enough about the general area where these condos are, how close they are to shopping places and such, any insider info on the developers, that would be helpful in making our decision. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot by giving up on Greenbelt Parkplace or for not looking elsewhere such as Fort Bonifacio? Most of our relatives live in Las Pinas/Paranaque areas.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

^^ another member from the bay area :)
welcome!!!

Thank you! Bartman! Where in the Bay Area are you from?

I'm researching infos on condo rental pool and commercial properties. I noticed that if a condo project has commercial areas being sold, they are the first ones to be sold out. There must be something good about them to be that desirable.

If any of you guys have any info or experience on joining rental pools and owning commercial areas in condo projects please share it with us. :) Oddvertising,
You might want to keep your eye on this future redevelopment of McKinley Road in Forbes Park into small scale commercial area ala Beverly Hills / Rodeo Drive daw. Might be an alternative option/possibility for you if you are seriously considering commercial space/property. I've attached the article below for your info. Hope it helps.


Victor Aguilar
(Published on Page B2 of the March 1, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer)

WHILE the Zobel de Ayalas were being distracted by the anti-Arroyo agitation of the "Hyatt 10" group of resigned Cabinet officials, the billionaire landlords of the Makati business district were themselves being quietly subverted right in their own backyard.

Unknown to the Ayalas, who developed the Forbes Park and Dasmariñas Village subdivisions, about two dozen homeowners along McKinley Road have had the Ayala-imposed deed of restrictions on their respective land titles lifted by the Makati Regional Trial Court, according to a McKinley homeowner.

McKinley, for the information of peasants, is Forbes Park's acacia-lined street that links the intersection of Ayala Avenue and the Edsa highway to the Fort Bonifacio Global City prime development area.

The Ayalas, through the two homeowners' associations, have initially won a court battle against the McKinley group to extend the deed of restrictions -- for 25 years, if we remember correctly -- thus keeping the residential character of the two high-end subdivisions.

It is not immediately clear what the court's basis was for the lifting of the McKinley restrictions, but apparently the court recognized that the character of the once sleepy street had changed since five decades ago when Forbes and Dasmariñas were carved out of wild-grass wasteland.

The McKinley homeowner refused to discuss the details of his court victory, for fear of tipping off the Ayalas about similar judicial relief being sought by the rest of the 54 property owners lining the now busy artery.

According to the grapevine, Ferdinand Marcos' son-in-law Greggy Araneta and Liberty Telecom chairman Raymond Moreno were the very first McKinley homeowners to win the favorable court ruling, with the others quietly and individually initiating their respective judicial actions, citing the Araneta and Moreno precedent-setting cases.

What apparently made the Makati court victories easy was that the cases had gone unchallenged by the Ayalas and even the Forbes and Dasmariñas homeowners' association which most likely had been unaware of such judicial proceedings.

With the lifting of the restrictions, up to five-story structures, instead of single- and two-level homes, can now be built along the McKinley corridor, paving the transformation of the entire strip into a Rodeo Drive-type of neighborhood like what Araneta and Moreno had been advocating.

The current price of real estate along McKinley is about P40,000 a square meter. Should the planned redevelopment push through and the large residential lots lining the road be broken into smaller chunks, the price could double overnight, easily.

Our initial choice was Greenbelt Parkplace because of it's proximity to Greenbelt, etc. We couldn't decide between a 1 bd for the affordability of it or a 2 bd for what we really need. Then I found out about Oriental Gardens which has 1 bd units the same size as a 2bd at Gr. Prplce for cheaper. So we thought, it might be a better deal. There is also Makati Executive Tower that we are considering.

I need to know if anybody knows enough about the general area where these condos are, how close they are to shopping places and such, any insider info on the developers, that would be helpful in making our decision. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot by giving up on Greenbelt Parkplace or for not looking elsewhere such as Fort Bonifacio? Most of our relatives live in Las Pinas/Paranaque areas.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Developer for Greenbelt is Megaworld. One of the countries largest. They've had some complaints in finish before I've not heard lately, you can check out the other threads of megaworld projects like eastwood and see how happy they are. I'm not sure if parkplace has a separate thread here, you can check it out. Location for this is excellent though allowing you to walk to greenbelt and other major makati destinations. If you don't spend a lot time in Manila then this could be a critical factor as getting from one side of makati to other by itself could be time consuming and frustrating. Since you are in the main cbd expect to pay higher taxes and dues as well.

Oriental Gardens is not far off but out of the cbd (just a street of two away actually). It's done by Federal Land which is a metrobank company. Conservative developers as this is not their main line. Have not heard anythign bad about them. In a bad traffic day it could be a hassle to drive from Oriental Garden which is in Pasong tamo to makati shopping centers. And since it's in the periphery the area around it is not as nice and is also reflectedin your dues and taxes. Basically a good location but not as nice an "address" as Legaspi Village. Used to flood there too but I heard they fixed Pasong tamo already.

Vol. XIX, No. 157
Thursday, March 02, 2006 | MANILA, PHILIPPINES

Property & Infrastructure
Addressing challenges in loan settlement, home ownership

The dream of owning his home became a reality for Reynaldo Medel when he became the first to take advantage of a pioneering effort in loan resolution programs that help housing loan borrowers settle their loans.

Artist’s perspective of the Celadon Residences

Recently, Mr. Medel and his family received their house’s transfer certificate of title from Bahay Financial Services (BFS) President Federico Y. Cadiz, Jr. years after their housing loan had been in default.

In 1988, Mr. Medel took out a housing loan under the lending program of the National Home Mortgage Finance Corp. (NHMFC) to buy a house and lot at the PLDT Village in Biñan, Laguna.

The increasing demands of raising his three children with a limited income, however, made it difficult for him to maintain his loan payments.

His situation is not unusual. Statistics show that almost 20% of households in Metro Manila and nearby provinces are able to construct or purchase their houses through loans from government or private banks.

However, thousands of these loans are now in default. This has prompted the government to introduce improvements in loan servicing and collection for the affordable housing industry.

This can be seen in the pioneering arrangement involving the NHMFC and special purpose entity Balikatan Housing Finance (Balikatan), where 52,000 residential loans are now the subject of a pioneering initiative in loan resolution.

Balikatan has engaged BFS to manage and service its portfolio of residential loans from the affordable housing sector. BFS offers loan resolution programs designed to help borrowers settle their housing loans under fair and reasonable terms. In Mr. Medel’s case, he opted for the full settlement of his obligation.

Initially worried about what would happen to his loan after learning that it had been transferred to BFS, Mr. Medel, a recently retired Philippine Long Distance Telephone Co. employee, had paid off his loan within days. "[Their] package was fair and reasonable and has helped me fully settle my housing loan," he said.

BFS is discussing with other borrowers in the portfolio its various loan resolution programs.

I went to the model room of oriental gardens and also checked out the units in the building since they are ready for turnover. I was not impressed. For the price they're asking it should have been a lot better. If they lowered the price more maybe. It's very plain.

Thank you! Bartman! Where in the Bay Area are you from?
grew up in san fran
now live in suisun
and work in san ramon

Bartman,
Hindi ba kayo tinamaan ng malakas na bagyong dumaan? I saw in the news that there were very hard wind action in the area that it even created funnel clouds / wind tunnels or whatever they call those things. Just hope you guys are OK. May mga punong natumba sa daan sa may amin, but otherwise we came out of it OK.

i worked from home monday when the winds were real heavy
i could hear raindrops pelting my roof (especially those hitting my skylights)
left the house about 5 pm to pick up wife in san fran (we decided to see the warriors' game at the oakland arena)
heavy downpour, one accident on 80 in vallejo
high wind advisory on the bridges

i heard on the news the following day that 70mph wind gusts hit sfo intl

and did you hear about the hail falling in san rafael yesterday?

i heard on the news the following day that 70mph wind gusts hit sfo intl

The PAL flight from Manila that evening got diverted to Oakland Intl and got stranded there for 7 hrs. Worse, nobody was allowed to get off the plane. The flight was resumed and arrived at SFO at around 2 AM...yikes.

Good to hear OK kayo. Yup I saw the hail storm as it was shown in the news as well as the flooding in Napa/Sonoma. Buti na lang the down pour was not as severe as last December kundi lubog nanaman sila. I experienced the strong winds around SFO first hand as I stayed with my parents in Millbrae that night. Aside from diverting in-coming planes to Oakland, SFO also changed the plane's take-off route as well. I could hear the planes accelerating together with the wind noise. I didn't know the wind was clocking at 70mph, though it was howling like mad. I thought the roof shingles would even fly-off and the fence brought down sa sobrang lakas. Ganun din sa City of San Francisco and the northern counties when they showed it in the news. Sana this is the last big storm for the year.

Jose EB Antonio, chairperson of Century Properties Group and Meridien Development Group, said that 30 percent of the income of OFWs in general is spent on housing, whether to buy a new home, fix present homes or pay for rent.

"The quest for the Filipino dream of owning their home is foremost in the minds of OFWs. It is also worthwhile to note that the average income of an OFW has increased, as more white collar workers and technical people are working abroad," Antonio said

Hi. I have a question. Since I'm unfamiliar with the real estate market in the Philippines, how much are good condos costing these days?

Like say I had 3.5 million. What kind of property in high rise developments would that get me? I know that small house and lot in BF Paranaque could be had around 3-4 mil. But what about highrise developments? What would a decent 1-bedroom cost in a new building? Comparing Ortigas, Mandaluyong, Makati and QC?

Yeah, for sure you can get a house for that price,no doubt,but where,Paranaque ? . Besides most ofw buyers are probably looking for convenience and less maintenance type of dwelling . So location ,proximity and accessibility to shop,eat and commute to places are more practical. Btw, you probably can get a decent 40's sqm one bedroom with that amount.

^ I know that's why I was asking what 3-4 mil can get you in Manda/Ortigas/Makati/QC... is it possible at all? I was asking about highrise developments in particular like California Gardens...

What about Soho Central? What does something like that cost for a 1-bedroom?

I'm just trying to get a handle on what the general prices are... ballpark.

^^ Boy,
Personally, I think you can get the best deals and more for your money buying in the re-sale unit market and you don't have to wait for it since it's already built. Remember cash is king in the Philppines and many are selling for one reason or another so you're in the position of strength to strike a good deal. But if you'd want to stick with new developments (pre-sell), you should be able to get a nice 1 bdrm condo in the Mandaluyong/Ortigas area with a budget of P3-4M. If you like that area of Metro Manila, better check out the threads pertaining to the Kuok Grp.'s St. Francis and Century/Meridien's Soho Central condo developments. Makati has Columns 1 & 2, Metropolitan, and the other Soho while FBGC has McKinley Park, Bellagio 2, Forbeswoods Parklane, Hamptons, Icon, and Serendra. These are just a handful of projects you can look into so it really depends on what you're looking for (wish list). Due to market forces/dynamics, prices change/vary that's why it's always better to work with a reputable realestate agent/advisor especially if you live outside the Philippine. This way he/she can give you a better idea as to what you can get in the different areas of Metro Manila for the budget one is willing to spend. Hope this helps. :)

My mistake.With 3-4 mil.you can get 60-70 sqm naman pala.

Boy,
Just to give you more options:
I was just browsing the Robinson's East of Galleria site and they are offering a 1 bedroom 38sqm for the price of only P2.2M and it's in what they call the "Amenity Zone". The unit is on the fourth floor where you have a small garden in the balcony. On the same floor, you have a "KARAOKE ROOM", swimming pool, Leisure area with dart, billiards and children's playground. You also enjoy wi-fi connections in the same area.

I think the hi-rise market is really getting more competitive and creative in their offerings these days. Just a few years ago there were no Lofts on offer. Now you even have an all-loft building on sale. Soho and Soma are offering fully furnished units. They are building the tallest residential twin condos besides edsa shangrila. I think the best things are yet to come in the Philippine hi-rise market.

I live in Dubai and here the sale of hi-rise residential have become so saturated that you see all kind of marketing ploys just to make their project unique. One company gives away a Jaguar with every apartment you buy. Another gives away $20,000 coupons to IKEA to furnish your apartment. Some offer 25% guaranteed return on investment in 4 years time. There is even one company giving away a Kilo of gold with every purchase.

My point is that I think the hi-rise residential industry in the phil. is set to be more aggresive and you should see everything on offer to make sure you don't miss out on a good deal before you buy.

Hi. I have a question. Since I'm unfamiliar with the real estate market in the Philippines, how much are good condos costing these days?

Like say I had 3.5 million. What kind of property in high rise developments would that get me? I know that small house and lot in BF Paranaque could be had around 3-4 mil. But what about highrise developments? What would a decent 1-bedroom cost in a new building? Comparing Ortigas, Mandaluyong, Makati and QC?

With this budget quite a lot of options. All areas have this sort of unit so best to narrow it down to the area you like. In general the new units in the fort (icon/srendra -cheapest; GW projects)are the most expensive, Makati has very expensive ( Ayala residences - which is one of the best locations in the country )and very inexpensive ones too(cityland/federal land) on the fringes, ortigas will be the cheapest among the prime areas in general, with the highest being st. francis to some citylands again.

Of course the secondary units offer a lot of variety and better values, but to many to enumerate. If you use cash you'd be surprised with what you can buy!

Maybe you should consider this Park Terrace Executive Homes in Cebu. Originally posted by sugbuanon, by the way.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2794/6350773451060bg8wd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/76/2650773451060bg2rm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9316/5650773451060bg7wn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9053/7365873451060bg8ih.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3599/8711873451060bg3un.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Phase-1 is fully SOLD-OUT and 100% occupied, while Phase-2 is fully completed, 25% sold-out and ready for occupancy......

Phase-3 just started its development and its now on the pre-selling stage for Investors and End-users alike.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2127/2550773451060alb2nh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Park Terrace Condominium will be starting soon
at Phase-4.

^^ I prefer Ecology and Serendra's look over this one...

Just wondering does anybody have pics they can post of the condo bldg/unit in Galleria de Magallanes (I believe it's an Ayala development)? For those familiar with the development, anything I should be aware of in terms of the area/location? Ok ba duon o masyado nang malayo sa Makati CBD and how is the traffic in the area? Also does it flood as well as get noisy and smoggy there being close to the highway? Nagtatanong lang naman. I appreciate the help and input. Thanks in advance for your time and assistance! :)

is this the one sa may magallanes??

Just wondering does anybody have pics they can post of the condo bldg/unit in Galleria de Magallanes (I believe it's an Ayala development)? For those familiar with the development, anything I should be aware of in terms of the area/location? Ok ba duon o masyado nang malayo sa Makati CBD and how is the traffic in the area? Also does it flood as well as get noisy and smoggy there being close to the highway? Nagtatanong lang naman. I appreciate the help and input. Thanks in advance for your time and assistance! :)

is this the one sa may magallanes??
Yes Dvorak this is the one in Magallanes, kung saan yung dating commercial area ata. I am just wondering if this area is better than the location of Ecology Village Dasma/SanLo which is around the Don Bosco school naman if I'm not mistaken.

What is the average lifespan of a condo ?
Does anyone have any opinion on A1 venue in Makati AVe.

Yes Dvorak this is the one in Magallanes, kung saan yung dating commercial area ata. I am just wondering if this area is better than the location of Ecology Village Dasma/SanLo which is around the Don Bosco school naman if I'm not mistaken.


Pards , tutal i know you already from this thread...are you looking for another condo investment? Because i know a couple of people where i work owns lots/lands in the Philippines as investment or for retirement haven ...some positive and some not so positive experience.....and it seems it's been an on-going trend for awhile now. One i know owns 5 hectares in Antipolo area,and another one owns somewhere in Bagiuo.....plus 3 people at work too, owns a condo at the fort area(Serrendra, as usual). I realized that a lot of ofw are the majority investors. Maybe i'm missing out on something here , but for now though, i don't have the balls or dinero to look for another investment there in the Phil. Anyway, I appreciate very much your input, and also, Bustero, Dvorak and the rest who chimed in their two cents. Good luck to all.

Macky,
Oh no I'm not really in the market for another property in Pinas. I'm already happy and satisfied with what I have. Meron lang kasi kaming kakilala (family friend) na nag-aalok ng unit nila duon sa Galleria de Magallanes so it just kinda piqued my curiosity at nagtatanong lang naman ako just in case. Ayoko kasi mag-usisa/magtanong sa kanila at baka akalain nila interesado ako (eh baka i-sales talk pa nila ako - Oh No). Just doing some due diligence at baka sakaling ibenta ng mura di ba. Wishful thinking lang baga...Hehehe... :)

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marites, condo lifetime is 50 years (legally and building wise) but theoretically can last a very long time as in hundreds of years for the structure and for the corporation this can be extended indefinitely.

A1 , I think this is going to have a lot of korean occupants, in general they do not have the best of reputations as neighbors here.

Macky - no prob, see you around here.

3cr - my only comment with Magallanes in general is that it's basically quite pollution laden, the traffic is of course pretty bad but that's a given for most people who invest there, of course next door is a high density zone too. Not the most pleasant environments IMO.

Bustero,
Thank you for your input. I really appreciate, respect, and value what you have to say. I had my suspicions about this development/area at buti na lang you confirmed it. Location is not that good/ideal. That's probably why they were willing to unload the unit even at relatively below market asking price. Salamat ulit sa tulong mo. :)
3cr - my only comment with Magallanes in general is that it's basically quite pollution laden, the traffic is of course pretty bad but that's a given for most people who invest there, of course next door is a high density zone too. Not the most pleasant environments IMO.

marites, condo lifetime is 50 years (legally and building wise) but theoretically can last a very long time as in hundreds of years for the structure and for the corporation this can be extended indefinitely.

A1 , I think this is going to have a lot of korean occupants, in general they do not have the best of reputations as neighbors here.

Macky - no prob, see you around here.

3cr - my only comment with Magallanes in general is that it's basically quite pollution laden, the traffic is of course pretty bad but that's a given for most people who invest there, of course next door is a high density zone too. Not the most pleasant environments IMO.
Sorry to be makulet but can you expand on the korean neighbors thing and the reputation. thanks

^^I don't want to stereotype because that would not be fair and is basically prejudicial but with the great influx of Koreans here in the Philippines many of them find it a nice place to live an do business, as such a critical mass has developed in terms of community here and they tend to congregate into enclaves rather than assimilate and areas such as makati ave all the way to rockwell has turned into a little korea town. Since they have different habits and are not familiar with the social norms some people have found them to be rude (relatively as they have a different set of social rules), seem to smoke a lot and when they are in groups (as they tend to live together) noisy. I know of some people who have complained about this and are not happy living with them (specially in the tonier buildings). I'm sure this development will attract them (not neccesarily to buy but to live in) because I can only see the trend of Koreans moving here increasing and hence new buildings near Koreatown will fill up as they want to be near their compatriots. If you are a tolerant person who is understanding of other peoples and their seemingly strange customs and habits this will not be an issue.

3cr, your welcome, we're just trying to help each other out here in the forum by sharing information. Am glad to be of some help though hope you don't take my opinions too seriously just in case you need to base you decisions on them, lalo na kung pumalpak ang opinion ko haha. I'll see you around man:)

Do you think it will be good for a rental property then? I know it's close to the red light district but there's a lot of foreigners and balikbayans lurking around that area.

malalaki ang cuts nito.. i've passed by the area a couple of times.. mukhang ok naman.. may mga commercial establishments na rin sa area..

Bustero,
Thank you for your input. I really appreciate, respect, and value what you have to say. I had my suspicions about this development/area at buti na lang you confirmed it. Location is not that good/ideal. That's probably why they were willing to unload the unit even at relatively below market asking price. Salamat ulit sa tulong mo. :)

Do you think it will be good for a rental property then? I know it's close to the red light district but there's a lot of foreigners and balikbayans lurking around that area.

Fundamental demand would be good but assuming "good for rental" is a decent yield then it would depend on your acquisition and subsequent cashflows. I don't know the price of the unit and am generally not familiar with rentals in the area but I would say that there should be good demand to live in that place if only for it's proximity to work areas aside from the growing Korean Community within the area.

dami ring competition dyan.. daming 2-3 star hotels in the area..

Fundamental demand would be good but assuming "good for rental" is a decent yield then it would depend on your acquisition and subsequent cashflows. I don't know the price of the unit and am generally not familiar with rentals in the area but I would say that there should be good demand to live in that place if only for it's proximity to work areas aside from the growing Korean Community within the area.

3cr, your welcome, we're just trying to help each other out here in the forum by sharing information. Am glad to be of some help though hope you don't take my opinions too seriously just in case you need to base you decisions on them, lalo na kung pumalpak ang opinion ko haha. I'll see you around man:) Don't worry pards I won't take it against you...Hehehe. Wala namang sisihan at ako'y nagtatanong lamang. I'm actually thankful nga that you guys give very good, honest, and non biased feedback. It's a tremendous help for those like me that's not very familiar with those parts of MetroManila. Salamat ulit! :)

malalaki ang cuts nito.. i've passed by the area a couple of times.. mukhang ok naman.. may mga commercial establishments na rin sa area.. Thanks for the input Dvorak. Yung nga sabi nila that their 3 bedroom unit in Galleria de Magallanes is pretty good size around 136 SQM @ P35T/SQM which comes out to less than P4.8M (+ 12%VAT) which is below market daw. Nabanggit nga rin nila na may commercial area nearby that they said was small but similar to Greenbelt and Powerplant in ambiance. Hindi na ako nag-usisa at nagtanong kasi baka sa akin pa ilako yung unit eh di naman ako bibili. I was just curious how the development/unit look and what type of area it is in. From what I gather, malaki nga yung cut but the location is kinda suspect (traffic, smoggy, noisy, etc.) which is probably why they were willing to sell below market rate. Salamat ulit! :)

if i have the money to spare.. why not.. maganda yung neighborhood.. hindi naman maingay kasi medyo malayo naman sa highway.. mataas yung fence.. ok naman security.. tsaka ang lapit sa edsa..


Thanks for the input Dvorak. Yung nga sabi nila that their 3 bedroom unit in Galleria de Magallanes is pretty good size around 136 SQM @ P35T/SQM which comes out to less than P4.8M (+ 12%VAT) which is below market daw. Nabanggit nga rin nila na may commercial area nearby that they said was small but similar to Greenbelt and Powerplant in ambiance. Hindi na ako nag-usisa at nagtanong kasi baka sa akin pa ilako yung unit eh di naman ako bibili. I was just curious how the development/unit look and what type of area it is in. From what I gather, malaki nga yung cut but the location is kinda suspect (traffic, smoggy, noisy, etc.) which is probably why they were willing to sell below market rate. Salamat ulit! :)

if i have the money to spare.. why not.. maganda yung neighborhood.. hindi naman maingay kasi medyo malayo naman sa highway.. mataas yung fence.. ok naman security.. tsaka ang lapit sa edsa..

Dvorak,
I also have no money to spare bro...Hehehe. I'm not really in the market for an investment property but always have just been keeping an eye out for good deals. I'm actually just trying to get a vibe of the development and area more so than thinking/planning of buying it. Theoretically price-wise ba mura naman ba yon sa tingin niyo? You think P35T/SQM in the Magallanes area is really below market price? Tingin ko kasi even if so I've seen better Makati property offerings for more or less the same money (P5M budget excluding 12% VAT). For example, I've come across a 3 bdrm Townhouse unit in Ecology village in the San Lorenzo area (SQM not specified) for P5M as well as a 156SQM 3 bdrm unit in Classica Towers (near Makati Med) for P5M as well. Tingin ko lang kasi those 2 properties are better buys than the said unit in Magallanes don't you think? :)

hindi naman kasi condo yung sa magallanes pre.. kaya mahirap i compare.. tsaka medyo old na yang classica towers...

Dvorak,
I also have no money to spare bro...Hehehe. I'm not really in the market for an investment property but always have just been keeping an eye out for good deals. I'm actually just trying to get a vibe of the development and area more so than thinking/planning of buying it. Theoretically price-wise ba mura naman ba yon sa tingin niyo? You think P35T/SQM in the Magallanes area is really below market price? Tingin ko kasi even if so I've seen better Makati property offerings for more or less the same money (P5M budget excluding 12% VAT). For example, I've come across a 3 bdrm Townhouse unit in Ecology village in the San Lorenzo area (SQM not specified) for P5M as well as a 156SQM 3 bdrm unit in Classica Towers (near Makati Med) for P5M as well. Tingin ko lang kasi those 2 properties are better buys than the said unit in Magallanes don't you think? :)

hindi naman kasi condo yung sa magallanes pre.. kaya mahirap i compare.. tsaka medyo old na yang classica towers...
Dvorak,
Ah hindi ba condo unit yon sa Galleria de Magallanes? Ang pagkakaintindi ko kasi condo yung nilalako nila. So townhome pala yun gaya ng Ecology Village? That's different then.

HELLO GUYS...naku heto pa isang very helpful na thread...sana nakausisa ako dito before i invest again to get some advice, well too late...anyway, just dropping by..hi DVORAK and 3CR! regular magmimiron na ko dito...

Hello ms.Sunset92. Nice to see that you're enjoying the other threads as well. I myself have also learned alot from other forum members and have been thankful for discovering this site as it keeps me informed of what's going not only on the different developments but also news in general about the Philippines. Btw aside from this "Condo as Investment" thread, there is also another one I highly recommend you check out called "Guide to buying condos/Reliable developers/Post your problems with developers here". Dami rin tips and advice on that thread like in this one. Hope it helps. Happy reading! :)

Hello ms.Sunset92. Nice to see that you're enjoying the other threads as well. I myself have also learned alot from other forum members and have been thankful for discovering this site as it keeps me informed of what's going not only on the different developments but also news in general about the Philippines. Btw aside from this "Condo as Investment" thread, there is also another one I highly recommend you check out called "Guide to buying condos/Reliable developers/Post your problems with developers here". Dami rin tips and advice on that thread like in this one. Hope it helps. Happy reading! :)

you're right 3CR...andaming matutunan dito sa mga forum members ng iba't-ibang fora...kaya nagmimiron na ako sa ibang threads dito kase it expands talaga your learning...lalo akong naaaliw pag may post pa na pictures...i'm happy when i hear somebody move in his/her unit na,like yung mga taga- GA towers lumilipat na sila ngayon and very self-reliant in improving their units right away...i'm thrilled everytime there's a new post of pictures sa makati city in pictures thread...i'm excited when there's a new condo development...through this website, i began being more curious in condos and actually getting serious in investing in condos than living on it myself...i never get tired browsing thru different threads, getting other people's opinions, suggestions, or criticisms...this site makes me to love back, look back and appreciate what philippines can still offer...it gave me a sense of longing of being there, yet also enjoy being on the backseat and watch the country prosper...it makes me proud and brings back that thrill of my next visit...

Rocky Balboa: "Condominiums? I never use them."

Hi,


Is it possible and/or easy to do buy to let of (likely lower end) condos in Pinas?

It's a big thing here in the UK and my landlord grew wealthy on it over the past decade.


A related topic:

What are good condos to buy purely for yield? What price range, what yields can you expect, and how easy is it to find the tenants?


My idea is: buy to let, 10% down, on condos of PHP 2m each, 10% down on 10 different PHP 2m condos, find 10 different tenants, use the rent to match the mortgage payments, hope that all goes well and you get rich. Obviously there are risks and it's not as easy as it sounds but it has been done by people before in the UK and other countries.

Please scan the forum for similar topics. I'm sure there is already a thread about affordable condos. Also, make sure to start threads in the appropriate sub-forum. This is the second time one of your threads is in the wrong location. Thanks.

Sorry if it's in the wrong location, I thought this was a general question which is why I posted it under:

SE Asia - Phil Forums

Where should it go please?

Projects on the Rise;) Thanks...i'll move it.

Welcome, btw:)

Salamat for moving it, how do you do it by the way?

Also I am a bit confused because when I posted the bachelor's pad thread in Projects on the Rise, people said it was in the wrong forum, so I posted it on the general thread and it ended up back in here at Projects on the Rise.

I was thinking the condos I am thinking of are existing ones not preselling ones, hence I thought the general forum was more appropriate.

Oh, only mods can move threads:)

Is that a new species? :)

moderator

Hey guys... how about the reputation of Pacific Concord Properties, Inc. as the developer of Lancaster Suites in Ortigas? I'm planning to buy a unit in the 2nd tower coz it's a condotel & i just want to know the developer's reputation to be sure with my investment. Thanks in advance !!!

Hey... i really learned a lot from you guys... THANKS !!! I just have a question.... what is really important for a high rise condo buyers, view or location? My problem is... i bought a unit in Ortigas particularly first tower not knowing that the view of the unit will be covered by the 2nd tower but the first tower is still under construction. My main purpose of buying the unit is purely investment & for sure i will have a problem of selling the unit in the future coz a lot of buyers are after of the view especially in a high rise condominium. I talked to one of their representatives & they allowed me to move to the 2nd tower coz i'm not really satisfied of the view. The 2nd tower has a bigger unit size area & it will cost me an additional 2.5 million pesos bec. of the size area plus the "VAT thing" :mad: if i'm going to move to the 2nd tower. Right now i'm not yet decided to move to the 2nd tower bec. of the price difference of the two towers & also if i'm going to move to the 2nd tower, i'll still have to wait for 5 years. The turn over of the first tower will be next year but the problem is the "view" even if the location is ok. Please help me guys...:cry:

^ Do you mind sharing which condominium project this is?

gmb, i hv friends that bought there. i think pacific concord prop. has a good reputation. i do advise that aside from this forum, go to the web and follow the trails of pcp, its parent company and other successful projects. however, it that doesn't satisfy you and you r overseas, just go with ayala, rlc, etc... not worth losing your sleep over this.

Whether you're buying, selling, or investing in real estate, it's all about location. Choosing the right location means you'll wind up with a property that increases in value faster than those in other areas. It can mean you'll sell faster and for more money. A great location will allow you to command higher rent for an investment property.

Views are secondary but it can be applied vertically as well. Higher views are typically prized over lower views. When developers are pricing new condo buildings, units on the lower floors are less expensive than those on higher floors. Since views are not always guaranteed (it's remarkable how many 'eternal views' become DOA a few years after the sale) location takes precedent. it's a good idea to select one in an area where you can expect to have business driven to your property, such as near major shopping malls, transportation hubs(MRT or LRT) or within the financial district.

Ortigas is an excellent area so location-wise you win. My advice, stick to your present unit and invest your xtra money elsewhere. The 2.5M and xtra 5 year is much too extreme and in my opinion isn't worth it. If that does not convince you, then you may flip over.




Hey... i really learned a lot from you guys... THANKS !!! I just have a question.... what is really important for a high rise condo buyers, view or location?

Though this may not be absolutely correct, here is another way of looking at why location is almost everything when buying a condo:

1. LOCATION SITE: Is it in Ortigas, Makati, Bonifacio or Eastwood. Which area satisfies your purpose more (investment or to live in)? Is it in a location that has a potential to escalate in price in the future?

2. LOCATION OF THE BUILDING IN THE SITE: Is it near the MRT? Is it walking distance to a mall or commercial area? Is it near your working area? Are there other buildings around that will obstruct your view?

3. LOCATION OF YOUR UNIT IN THE BUILDING: Can you see the morning sun from your unit? Do you prefer the sunset view from your balcony? Is it overlooking the Golf course? Does it have a sea view? Is your unit near the elevator? Is your unit under the swimming pool? Is it on a higher or a lower floor?

There are other things to consider, like the quality of the unit, number of elevators, facilities, security, maintenance, neighbors and of course the price. All these other things are things are subjective, can be fixed or improved but you cannot change the location of your unit once you have bought it.

Anyway, from my experience, you usually get what you pay for. Be sure that you know what you are buying before you make that reservation.

It is always a mystery to me why it is so important for some people to have the morning sun. I always assumed it has something to do with feng shui.
Personally, I prefer looking at the sunset. I am not a morning person and I don't want to look at the sun when I just woke up specially after a night out. Units that have the morning sun as a view will not have the sunset view most often.

Anyway, units with morning sun are usually higher in price, it is easier to sell your unit if has the morning sun. Is there any other practical reason why people prefer the morning sun from the sunset?

it's indeed a terrible experience to buy a unit on the first tower not knowing that a second tower will block your views. several projects have this set-up - GA Towers, Makati Exec Tower, to name a few. The problem is...if the buyers are not expecting anything to block their views...and suddenly the developer decides to build another tower. What about planning 2 or 3 towers at the same time - just like Oriental Gardens, Residences at Greenbelt, Joya Lofts, etc. The idea of 4 towers of Makati Executive Tower would make me really disappointed if i have a unit (i wish) at the first tower.

i would prefer a morning sun over a sunset. siguro psychological lang. a lot of condo sellers tho have sunset as one of their strongest selling points. manila bay sunset that is. para kasing on the wane na ang buhay ko pag sunset. hehe...

Unless your feng shui believer or a freemason dude,you probably prefer rising sun. South facing will get intense and lots of sun exposure, while the North facing side will never get direct sun and therefore cooler. West facing side is beautiful too...as the sun goes down,it tends to get bigger and creating more dramatic orange/purple hue clouds.

The sun rises up in the east and the sun goes down in the west. A lot of ancient beliefs still holds true, influencing both ancient and modern mega structures. It has something to do with life and death..... Oooh, very esoteric mystery.

aside siguro from feng shui.. if people are given a choice.. sunrise or sunset.. majority will pick sunrise (east side).. why? pag sunset side ka.. imagine the heat from 2pm to 5pm.. ni a absorb unit mo yung heat.. so if you are leaving there.. everyday ka na lang magrereklamo at mainit.. not unless you have blackout blinds.. tapos todo ang aircon.. you'll also notice na kahit 7pm na.. mainit pa rin don sa unit kasi nga para syang binilad sa araw..

It is always a mystery to me why it is so important for some people to have the morning sun. I always assumed it has something to do with feng shui.
Personally, I prefer looking at the sunset. I am not a morning person and I don't want to look at the sun when I just woke up specially after a night out. Units that have the morning sun as a view will not have the sunset view most often.

Anyway, units with morning sun are usually higher in price, it is easier to sell your unit if has the morning sun. Is there any other practical reason why people prefer the morning sun from the sunset?

ei for any condo matters...just PM me.

Thank you guys... I decided to retain my unit in the first tower & hoping that I made the right decision... thanks again !!!

Thanks AkafloresToo for your reply !!!

Good on ya. . . :)

You can check the thread there is several buyers who are listed there and you can PM them so you can get their point of view as well. Some of them live here in Manila so you can have first hand info from someone who has common interests.

I think this is the one along Escriva drive right. I've passed it a few times though not in the past few weeks and there's always activity as in constrution there. They've other developments as well I think in Paranaque.

It is always a mystery to me why it is so important for some people to have the morning sun. I always assumed it has something to do with feng shui.
Personally, I prefer looking at the sunset. I am not a morning person and I don't want to look at the sun when I just woke up specially after a night out. Units that have the morning sun as a view will not have the sunset view most often.

Anyway, units with morning sun are usually higher in price, it is easier to sell your unit if has the morning sun. Is there any other practical reason why people prefer the morning sun from the sunset?

i also prefer the sunset and also not a morning person so i hate when the sun light pass thru my bedroom window while i'm still sleeping at 10am (in my days-off, when kids permit),so i chose a house here with the master's facing west but with the house itself facing east (for feng shui daw)...but DVORAK is right that units facing west tend to retain more heat from the afternoon sun as condos have wider widows...pero kanya-kanya din talaga yan ng gusto eh...me myself would love a unit w/ a balcony along roxas blvd where the best sunset is...sun worshipper it is :bow: ...thus my user name... m))

I think sunrise is the healthiest part of the day if you can catch it. I remember ..when i was a little boy vacationing in my father's province, my Lolo used to take me very early in the morning to the rice fields and watched the sunrise while he tended to his work. Looking back now, the more i appreciated and treasured those moments in time. I might start doing the same experience to my son, and as much as possible, take him to an open grass field and let him run around basking in the morning rays.....and maybe he'll thank me for it someday...

^^ Macky, Single people are probably good candidates for West-facing units/views kasi sunsets and romance are usually associated with one another di ba? However I for one chose mine for different reasons...Hehehe... :)

With this budget quite a lot of options. All areas have this sort of unit so best to narrow it down to the area you like. In general the new units in the fort (icon/srendra -cheapest; GW projects)are the most expensive, Makati has very expensive ( Ayala residences - which is one of the best locations in the country )and very inexpensive ones too(cityland/federal land) on the fringes, ortigas will be the cheapest among the prime areas in general, with the highest being st. francis to some citylands again.

Of course the secondary units offer a lot of variety and better values, but to many to enumerate. If you use cash you'd be surprised with what you can buy!

Just a question are the Icon and Serendra the most affordable in the market? I thought Serendra was high end?

Studio-type, one-bedroom units best-sellers in condominiums

Think studio apartment and immediately there appears an image of a cozy
environment tucked inside a building--probably a multilevel -- called
home.

Blame it on the romanticized depiction of these units, but studio units
have gained a reputation of being a start-up individual's watering
hole from the hustle and bustle of city life.

Studios and one-bedroom apartments have so far been the best-selling
units for condominium projects, property developers said.

"If you look at it in a developer's perspective, what sells is the
one bedroom and studio units. That's the bread and butter," said
Danilo Ignacio, Robinsons Land Corp.'s general manager for the
high-rise buildings division.

The units, which are between 16 and 20 square meters and which could
cost below P1 million, are attractive for their affordability.

And analysts said given a four-million unit housing backlog,
affordability is what matters most to many.

"The basic trend is that this is for end users," Asian Institute of
Management professor Danilo A. Antonio said, adding that units are
becoming smaller to accommodate the financial capacity of buyers.

Ryan Isip, CB Richard Ellis Philippines' associate director for
global corporate services, said while many condominium unit buyers cite
the small units as good investments, they actually end up either living
in it or having their children occupy the pad.

The buyers of such units are mainly young urban professionals, start-up
families and well-to-do students.

Beyond this group, analysts and property developers said around 30% of
the units are bought by so-called hard core investors or those who buy
to sublease the unit.

"They buy the unit and over time they can lease it and their money can
either go to them as monthly income or to the monthly amortization of
the unit," Mr. Isip said.

Mr. Antonio said an example of this trend is renting the units as
dormitories for students or professionals. "This is being done now in
downtown Manila."

Most developers do not oppose subletting. Robinsons Land, for instance,
allows buyers to lease the units in its projects. "There are no
restrictions on subletting. We allow the unit owners to lease their
units," Mr. Ignacio said.

Meanwhile, some investors also buy the units to resell them at a later
time, analysts said.

They said these investors take advantage of the low preselling price of
the units and later on make money upon completion.

Mr. Antonio, however, noted that unlike other countries, the investor
market is not a major business as yet for those engaged in buying and
selling units given the relatively small secondary market in the
property sector.

He is giving the secondary market five years to become a lucrative
undertaking

Those who use their properties as collateral against loans are also
considered as investors, some analysts said.

But Mr. Isip also noted that only those who have good credit standing
could benefit from using their properties as collateral since the loan
rates would be based on creditworthiness.

"Otherwise, if they get high interest for their loan, it's not going
to work for them," he said.

Mr. Antonio said many condominium buyers who purchase on investment are
Chinese Filipinos "who don't want their money to sleep. They want
their money to grow and their haven for money is real estate."

Mr. Isip, however, said anyone who would want their money to grow would
consider buying condominium units as an investment.

"This is not driven by heritage or race. Investors are those who want
their money to work for them [or invest in real estate]; in Pilipino,
they are referred to as negosyante [astute businessmen]."

^^ tnx for this article ASRAZ...you're inspiring us to believe in our investments...and then invest some more. :D

Thank you for the article asraz.

As additional information, a lot of filipinos living here in Dubai are investing in the Philippines. They take advantage of the very low interest rate on personal loans here and buy properties in cash in the Philippines. Some banks here offer as low as 2.5% per annum flat rate on personal loans.

I have 3 friends who just recently bought 1 bedroom units last month. One in SOHO another in Serendra and one in Rada Regency in Makati.

There are a few of us here in Dubai who prefers hi-rise living but the majority still buys House & Lots. I think for us outside the Philippines the main advantage of buying a condo is that you do not need a caretaker to live in your unit while you are not there.

I have heard of so many tales of people buying a house and letting their relatives live there while they are still out of the country and then be dissappointed that their purchase has deteriorated already when they finally see it. Even if was taken care of properly, it is always a pain telling your relatives that they have to go because you don't want them to live in your house anymore.

That's so common sad situation. I remember before... my ex-girlfriend almost defaulted and loss her town house in Pasig...her biggest mistake was she let her sister's family stayed for free and entrusted the handling of mortgage payments.

Just a question are the Icon and Serendra the most affordable in the market? I thought Serendra was high end?

I think for the fort Icon and Serendra are the expensive ones. The inexpensive ones in the fort are the gilbert yu projects (hampton, kensington,e tc).

If I may add to the location, location, location, and at the risk of being labelled a snob. It's also important to know what kind of people are in the building. Different demographic profiles have different values, habits, etc. Make sure that the one you pick will fit your profile. Apartment Ridge is arguably the most expensive in the country with an ayala ave address but there are still differences with the buildings and it's not only age. Some are better kept than others and beware of deadbeat fellow condo owners who refuse to pay their dues or follow rules. Something to watch out for whcih affects price.

On a more negative note. I was chatting with Jose Marie Cuervo of Cuervo Far East, the Cushmand Wakefield affiliate in the country, and he is of the opinion that the present condo boom is in for a let down. His point is that a big chunk of the market is purchased by people abroad (like you guys here) and don't really plan to use it. In fact most think of it as an investment hence the value derived comes from either rental yields or capital gains. He does not think the many properties specially at the over 70,000 per sq. will yield high in fact he thinks in a few years suerte na kung 4% ang yield per annum. In any case he thinks the rental market will drop on a relative basis against the capitlal cost due to the large supply. For capital gains I think it's fairly obvious that it's still tough to sell on the secondary market at a high price from the primary market, thus keeping the whole thing in a vicious cycle. He basically believes that di pa humahabol ang rental yields to capital at this point and will get worse the thousands of units will be unoccupied hence will need to get rented out. Anyway his opinion. I don't follow the gap analysis of this sector too much as I focus more on housing but would advise people to consider his take and do your own analysis.

speaking of Ayala Ridge.. have you seen the underpass that they're doing in front of 6750 crossing Ayala.. the billboard says that it will connect to Ayala Ridge? the drawing also has an elevator.. will this be going up Ayala Ridge?

I think for the fort Icon and Serendra are the expensive ones. The inexpensive ones in the fort are the gilbert yu projects (hampton, kensington,e tc).

If I may add to the location, location, location, and at the risk of being labelled a snob. It's also important to know what kind of people are in the building. Different demographic profiles have different values, habits, etc. Make sure that the one you pick will fit your profile. Apartment Ridge is arguably the most expensive in the country with an ayala ave address but there are still differences with the buildings and it's not only age. Some are better kept than others and beware of deadbeat fellow condo owners who refuse to pay their dues or follow rules. Something to watch out for whcih affects price.

On a more negative note. I was chatting with Jose Marie Cuervo of Cuervo Far East, the Cushmand Wakefield affiliate in the country, and he is of the opinion that the present condo boom is in for a let down. His point is that a big chunk of the market is purchased by people abroad (like you guys here) and don't really plan to use it. In fact most think of it as an investment hence the value derived comes from either rental yields or capital gains. He does not think the many properties specially at the over 70,000 per sq. will yield high in fact he thinks in a few years suerte na kung 4% ang yield per annum. In any case he thinks the rental market will drop on a relative basis against the capitlal cost due to the large supply. For capital gains I think it's fairly obvious that it's still tough to sell on the secondary market at a high price from the primary market, thus keeping the whole thing in a vicious cycle. He basically believes that di pa humahabol ang rental yields to capital at this point and will get worse the thousands of units will be unoccupied hence will need to get rented out. Anyway his opinion. I don't follow the gap analysis of this sector too much as I focus more on housing but would advise people to consider his take and do your own analysis.

Anybody familiar with the track record of the developers of Seibu Towers in FBGC? Very agressive (too good to be true) kasi yung pricing and payment plans nila as posted in the Seibu thread and just wondering papaano nila nagagawa yon. Curious lang naman...

Hey bustero, that's a very valid analysis. Thanks for sharing it with us. I'm hoping though that there is always a possibility that the Filipinos abroad also bought the unit for retirement purposes or may have it used for their families / relatives in the country. Until we know the actual percentages, we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully the stream of future yuppies and investments in the country (especially in Fort) follow through.

^^ I would stay away from Seibu...I have the company profile and did my research about this comany...its basically a new company, with no experience in becoming a developer. In their company profile, they even mentioned a few notable things, which I don't know why they would put it there...

1) They are a company with a small capital
2) They were incorporated in 2003, with only 1 project in its belt, which is the 2-storey "Forum" commercial for lease building. I've seen this project, and it is one of the cheapest constructed structure in BGC.

I will scan the company profile and post it here soon.

I am in the market too, and had my broker search the SEC papers of this company...it turns out their paid up capital is only Php 67,500 and they are a development company...makes me wonder how easy it is to be a developer here in Manila. With my reservation fee, I wold double their company size. Also, I have a feeling that the property the projects is being built on is mortgaged to Manila Bank...it says so on their agreement with Equitable Bank.

The documentation is also a bit weird. I reviewed the Depository and disbursement agreement of Banco De Oro (with G&W projects), and it is a direct agreement between me as the client and the bank to protect my money. I was told, with thie agreement, it is similar to me opening a bank account with Banco De Oro. When I looked at the Equitable bank agreement (Golden Forum Land Inc "GFL"), it is a tri-partite agreement...I consulted my lawyer, and he said, it is like I am opening a joint account with GFL who will have as much right to my money as I do...so in a way, effectively it is similar to no protection at all.

Anyway, I went to their launch in the NBC tent. The program lasted about 15 minutes, with Arch Albert Yu and Harvard Yu speaking, it was riddled with Fil-Estate brokers and a lot of megaworld brokers trying to act as clients getting info! I actually thought that their company is the same with G&W, but later on it was clarified by my broker that G&W is a completely different company with no relations to the Yus of GFL. I felt like I was almost mislead by this company, as all their brokers keep on saying it is just like G&W.

I might wait for the launch of Grand Hamptons, which I was told, will be middle of April. Their model unit is being constructed right now, and I saw the plans. The design is much much better for the 1-BR compared to Seibu. Just by looking at the Bathroom, with Seibu, the bathroom and the bedroom cannot be farther from each other...i'd hate to walk all the way to the opposite end of my unit just to use the bathroom in the middle of the night. Grand Hamptons will have a 1-BR where the bathroom has 2 doors, one inside the bedroom and one by the living room...similar to the rockwell model unit that I saw before. Exacc,
Thanks for the feedback you posted regarding Seibu Tower's developer. Buyer's beware ika nga...

Hi Gibson.
Thanks for gracing us with your presence. Any news you can share about your latest project Grand Hamptons? Also kindly clarify if the developers of the Seibu Tower is in any way affiliated with GW because there seems to be alot of confusion about the track record of the developer. Feel free to check out the Seibu thread to see what I'm talking about. Thank You for your time and assistance. :)
Best regards,
3CR aka Boe Rodriguez (SSCF member)
San Francisco, California
USA

Hello Boe, thanks for the info. We are not at all related to nor associated with Golden Forum Land Inc & its Proprietors Peter Yu and Harvard Yu and Arch Albert Yu. We are now preparing an official statement to correct the misleading remarks that have been made by that company. We feel very strongly about companies, like GFLI, as they are exactly the company we are against when we say middleman developers, who have no experience in construciton offering themselves to lead a billion peso development and get people to trust them with their life's savings.

They claim to do a Build to Own system, when in fact they do not fully understand how we execute this, in terms of legal, administrative, and financial strategy, a lot of the important details that cannot simply be copied from our brochures. They are just trying to ride the success by copying all our marketing materials and terminology.

Please do not take me wrong, we welcome people following the Build To Own style of development, as this is beneficial for the real estate industry. However, in this particular instance, we feel that they have gone through a long extent to mislead people that it is a G&W development and it is a Build To Own project.

To set the record straight, Build-To-Own is a construction industry initiated development, led by G&W Architects. GFLI's Harvard Yu, is a developer led system (as it says in their brochure) that is posing as Build To Own.

We do know who they are personally and in fact, Peter Yu's own brother lives in Penhurst Parkplace. Thank You Gibson for taking the time to clarify this for us so that there will be no confusion. Btw I checked out the Grand Hamptons link and all I have to say is Wow! Looking forward to more info on this new Hamptons project of yours. :okay:

Your venue for dispute will be primarily the SEC as opposed to the HLURB. The documentation will show you as a Joint venture partner not as a buyer. When the contract unravels in case of a no show there is a bit of a delay as all parties to the contract must be informed and participate.

There have been several of these things which have not taken off and have not been succesfull. Filinvest has one, and even the original communidades project developers in the country have not used this way of developing again. Gilbert Yu on the other hand has been quite succesfull with his Fort developments (hampton etc). It can take time for some projects to achieve critical mass and it may lose it's window of opportunity making it impossible or take a long time for the project to push through. So while delivery date from start is maintained, the start date may move, specially in a down cycle or not so marketable project.

There is an educational aspect to the method as well , so the proponent must sell the idea and the condo at the same time. This is what spooks some buyers and is why mainline developers have not employed it so far.

I believe the above comparison is from Gilbert Yu's website, he's the chief proponent right now for this method.


Hello...Thanks for sharing the information about Build-To-Own. We have in fact studied many possible ramifications of a system like ours. First of all, I would like to clarify if I may...

1) The contract that the clients signs with G&W will not make the client a joint-venture partner. The contract will make the client hire G&W as the architect and project manager. G&W will be in charge of designing and building the building and delivering the titles and start the property management system.

2) Yes, there are many projects which are similar in nature and has not taken off because of a lack of clients. The main difference between G&W and Communidades concept, is the people involved.

In communidades concept which did not take off, I believe the lead propnents were banking industry people, where they made 5% fee on top of all the costs of building the tower.

It is very hard to sell 100% of a building. In fact, in our last 3 towers, 80% of the sales come in the first 4-5 months, and the remaining 20% takes longer than that. Many clients who joined in the beginning of communidades projects got tired of waiting and wanted to back out by the time they were marketing the tail end of the units.

The difference why BTO can be successful given these trends in the market place is the fact that we have the support of the construction industry behind us. BTO is a win-win situation where the contractors are guaranteed payment by Banco De Oro, as long as they do the work at hand. Therefore, there is a lot of interest with contractors to work with us, because if you ask a lot of contractors out there, they will all have collectibles from major developers.

In realty, we only need 50% of the units to be sold to public, and the remaining 50% can be committed to by the contractor, us as architects and our suppliers. These units will remain for sale in the market with a 5% mark-up. If they don't get sold, contractor will get a unit at direct cost (which they don't mind because traditionally when they swap with developers, the units they get are already marked up by the developer already), if they do, they get paid in cash.

What happens is that we will have a defined date, "Target Commencement Date" which is determined in the contract...for Tower 2, it will be November 30, 2006. This is a go or no go date, where if we attain the 50% we will push through with the project. If we don't...since all payments are locked with Banco De Oro, and every deposited peso is still there, it will be returned together with the interest it earns.

We have found that this system is also a protection for clients, because people who invest early and realize that after 8 months, less than 50% gets sold...then the project is not a good investment and would probably want their money back as well. We as architects, do not want to force a project if it is not as feasible also.

However, in the past, we have had good performance, and all towers have been sold within the 6 month period we determined, and all construction started on time.

The delivery and start date will never be moved, becuse we are a believer that earlier delivery means earlier income. a 2 year tower delivered to a client will be revenue generating already...while if a client buys a 5 year project, they are still paying money on the 3rd year towards teh 5th year. It is all about turn-around when investment is involved.

Thanks again Gibson for enlightening us with the BTO process as well as what to look for when doing due diligence on a project/developer in question.
The Developer reputation and Track record is one way of assessing a project's viability. However, another aspect that most people overlook, is the ABILTY of the developer or company. Do they have the skill set to know what the critical and important factors are for the success of the building? When they price the units, do they know the actual cost of construction, and can they maintain the quality they promised with the clients? Do they know the fact and figures and trands of the construction indistry. Like the fact tha construction cost increases every year by 5% to 8%? A 25 storey tower can be comfortably completed within 24 month (as a rule of thumb, the correct timeframe of a building is 1 month per floor) We see a lot of projects where the construction schedule is delayed...why would a developer delay construciton, knowing that if they construct earlier, they stand to save on the cost of materials?

Many people have told us that we are radical in doing the Build To Own, and Arch Gilbert Yu is burning brides by going direct to homeowners...however we feel that it is a win-win situation for both the clients and the architects.

A fact that many people do not notice is that in every project that a developer does not complete...a lot of clients lose thier money, but also the architect and the contractors are not paid for works that they have done. And with our share of bad debts from developers, we have learned that the best way tp protect ourselves is to do our own research and not to accept any developer client that walks in (many contractors nowadays are also very picky in their clients) We look at 3 critical aspects in every project:

1) Land Disposition - who owns the land? Is it mortgaged? (It is illegal in the USA but legal here to sell land that is mortgaged to the bank) If it is a joint-venture, what are the terms of the joint-venture. As much as possible, the land should always be free from liens.
2) Disbursement of funds - can the developer have access to cash even without construction, or are they paid based on progress? If they get cash in advance, that means they can divert it for other purpose.
3) Construction schedule - is what they offer a realistic schedule? If they pan to deliver it on x date, they should start by x date...have they started yet?

I hope these info helps in your research of projects!

speaking of Ayala Ridge.. have you seen the underpass that they're doing in front of 6750 crossing Ayala.. the billboard says that it will connect to Ayala Ridge? the drawing also has an elevator.. will this be going up Ayala Ridge?
Sorry I've not heard of this project!

1) The contract that the clients signs with G&W will not make the client a joint-venture partner. The contract will make the client hire G&W as the architect and project manager. G&W will be in charge of designing and building the building and delivering the titles and start the property management system.

2) Yes, there are many projects which are similar in nature and has not taken off because of a lack of clients. The main difference between G&W and Communidades concept, is the people involved.

In communidades concept which did not take off, I believe the lead propnents were banking industry people, where they made 5% fee on top of all the costs of building the tower.

I'm curious then if the individual clients are not JV partners then they would have to pay 12%VAT. I'm not familiar with your documentation but would assume that there is no VAT in the transaction, I may be wrong. In any case for a tax efficient transaction I would assume that while these clients are not labeled JV partners there is a de facto partnership involved otherwise they'd need to pay a tax in the service relationship you describe.

The Parque Espana people did ok, the 5% is basically a management fee similar to yours, perhaps yours is structured differently but in the end someone has to put the deal and manage it. This per se is not the main reason communidades method is not so popular, it's got more to do with education of the market, plus of course most developers find it cumbersome and can still sell anyway.

Anyway good luck to your projects it seems you guys are quite succesful with your mode.

speaking of Ayala Ridge.. have you seen the underpass that they're doing in front of 6750 crossing Ayala.. the billboard says that it will connect to Ayala Ridge? the drawing also has an elevator.. will this be going up Ayala Ridge?

Sorry I've not heard of this project!

hi dvorak and bustero,

you probably mean apartment ridge, a small road that connects ayala avenue between urdaneta apartments and twin towers going half way around urdaneta village northward up towards the atrium of makati parking lot and paseo de roxas, ending at the entrance of urdaneta village.

yes, the construction of the new ayala underpass connecting the ridge apartment side to the ayala center has started in february, 2006. north drive is now closed, but the good news is that tuscani, ritz towers, pacific plaza and twin towers' residents can now drive and make a u-turn in front of rustan's at any time of the day.

according to our newsletter, the underpass is scheduled to be finished in october or november this year. since i'm in the states, i'd appreciate pictures of the construction from you or anyone. i was told it will start from the empty lot between gilarmi and twin towers towards rustans supermarket.

thanks in advance. and yeah, have a nice day, y'all! :)

There is an interesting thread in another forum titled: OFWs Buying a Condo/Real Estate in the Philippines ? Beware !!!!


http://www.gov.ph/forum/thread.asp?rootID=92145&catID=4



So mga hijo at hija, ingat kayo sa inyong pinaghirapang dolyares not only with those new fly-by-nite developers but also with those so-called "established developers". Fraud and Corruption is rampant not only with the Govt' but with the private sector as well. Konting paalala lang po, just be vigilant.

I'm curious then if the individual clients are not JV partners then they would have to pay 12%VAT. I'm not familiar with your documentation but would assume that there is no VAT in the transaction, I may be wrong. In any case for a tax efficient transaction I would assume that while these clients are not labeled JV partners there is a de facto partnership involved otherwise they'd need to pay a tax in the service relationship you describe.

There is a defacto client - architect relationship. Each client hires G&W to be their architect and project manager. For that we get a 4% fee, which we disclose in our contracts. This fee is what G&W's income is for the transaction, and will have to pay 12% VAT for (12% of the 4%). We made the VAT inclusive in the prices of the units already.

What the clients do not pay VAT for is the conveyance of the unit. Each title is directly issued by the registry of deed to the individual clients. Unlike in the developer's system, where the titles are issued to the developer first, and then an absolute deed of sale is executed and the whole unit is transfered again from the developer to the unit owner.

In that case, the clients have to pay VAT and all the taxes needed for a sale of a property...similar to if you owner a land and is a VATtable corporation.

I guess the easiest way to explain this is if you were to build your own house. First of all, you would not go to a developer who will in turn hire an architect to build your house. You would go directly to the architect, and when the house is built, you will not have to pay VAT on the entire value of the house...just the architectural fee you paid the architect. Build-To-Own is like building your own house...except, there are more clients that we handle at the same time. Similar to say, a family with 5 siblings who would like to build a 5 storey building, where each sibling owns one floor. They would still hire the architect directly, and pay VAT only for the architectural fee. In the case of BTO projects, it is 200 siblings at the same time.

I hope this clears things up...:)

There is an interesting thread in another forum titled: OFWs Buying a Condo/Real Estate in the Philippines ? Beware !!!!


http://www.gov.ph/forum/thread.asp?rootID=92145&catID=4



So mga hijo at hija, ingat kayo sa inyong pinaghirapang dolyares not only with those new fly-by-nite developers but also with those so-called "established developers". Fraud and Corruption is rampant not only with the Govt' but with the private sector as well. Konting paalala lang po, just be vigilant.


Hmm, I am interested to know which company this is. It sounds a bit fishy that a company would forclose just because of one missed payment. Most companies and developers have at elast 60 days and requires a few written warnings.

If that is true, they certainly have a case agains that developer....legally you cannot jsut forclose a proerty...even banks cannot forclose properties that fast.

There is a defacto client - architect relationship. Each client hires G&W to be their architect and project manager. For that we get a 4% fee, which we disclose in our contracts. This fee is what G&W's income is for the transaction, and will have to pay 12% VAT for (12% of the 4%). We made the VAT inclusive in the prices of the units already.

What the clients do not pay VAT for is the conveyance of the unit. Each title is directly issued by the registry of deed to the individual clients. Unlike in the developer's system, where the titles are issued to the developer first, and then an absolute deed of sale is executed and the whole unit is transfered again from the developer to the unit owner.

In that case, the clients have to pay VAT and all the taxes needed for a sale of a property...similar to if you owner a land and is a VATtable corporation.

I guess the easiest way to explain this is if you were to build your own house. First of all, you would not go to a developer who will in turn hire an architect to build your house. You would go directly to the architect, and when the house is built, you will not have to pay VAT on the entire value of the house...just the architectural fee you paid the architect. Build-To-Own is like building your own house...except, there are more clients that we handle at the same time. Similar to say, a family with 5 siblings who would like to build a 5 storey building, where each sibling owns one floor. They would still hire the architect directly, and pay VAT only for the architectural fee. In the case of BTO projects, it is 200 siblings at the same time.

I hope this clears things up...:)


I see so there is VAT paid , it's just tucked in the price. I'm familiar with ways to directly convey the title in a tax efficient manner, without getting too technical of BIR tax regulations there is a test that would be used for determination for partnership threshold which would negate any application of VAT on the transaction. This would make the clients partners then as they jointly contract your services. Anyway tks for your response.

hello from London

can someone please give me some good websites that sell condos in Manila (with prices and photos of each property)

thanks

Max

^^ Hi Max. You may want to check out: www.realestatemovers.com which gives a good listing and overview of the current (already built), under construction, and coming (pre-selling) condo developments in and around Metro Manila. Then I suggest to check out the specific condo development threads in SSCF to get more in-depth info on the respective developments that may have piqued your interest. Hope this helps. Good Luck on your search! :)

what condo buildings in Metro Manila having roof top swimming pools or above ground ones?

^^ that's a lot. most pools are on the podium on the 3 -5th level. I don't remember any on the penthouse floor among the new ones but there probably is some. It's very seldomg you will find the pool on the ground floor unless it's a big development.

^^ In FBGC I know Philtown's One McKinley and Fairways Tower residential/condo developments have the rooftop pool and ammenities; not to mention the excellent views that Max desires. Hope this helps. :)

This would make the clients partners then as they jointly contract your services. Anyway tks for your response.

Very interesting, and educational for me as well. Thank you! Although, each client signs individual contracts...it is not all the clients signing one contract with us.

So we sign 200 contracts for 200 unit owners, instead of 1 contract with all 200 owners as a part of that contract.

I have noticed a growing number of condo unit owners getting pissed-off when their building/development is given a less than favorable comment by other forum members. I can't speak for others but I would like to believe the majority of the comments that were made were not intentionally meant to disrespect/hurt those who have invested there but rather merely just expressing their own opinion of the project as they saw it. Regardless of how bad the comments sounded please bear in mind that beauty, just like architecture, is purely subjective so what may be beautiful for one can be quite the opposite for another. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder so it will really be quite impossible to satisfy everyone's taste. Notice there are those who simply judge a building/development purely on aesthetics (regardless of its pricing and target market) based on what is beautiful in their eyes while others on the other hand are actual investors whose criteria for liking a building can be totally different because of other factors they have to consider other than its architecture such as budget, location, environment, view, etc. Though some may have an endless well of fortune, many of us regular folks are not as lucky and so we have to be more realistic and selective with the so-called "needs versus wants" in our wishlist when buying a unit to fit within that budget. As much as we want to live in a Pacific Plaza, only a handful can actually afford so which is why I for one would not mind buying and be happy living in an ugly-duckling of a building in the best city/neighborhood (such as FBGC) rather than the other way around, being in the most striking architectural marvel of a building in a lesser city/neighborhood. After all in the end of the day it does not matter as much which development you live in as much as which city/neighborhood you stay in. When someone asks where you live, all you have to say is FBGC, The Fort, Global City, or whatever monicker used for Fort Bonifacio and they already know how lucky you are to live in such a wonderful place/environment. My advice to fellow investors who follow these threads is to prepare themselves to be thick-skinned and not take the negative comments personally as it is quite easy to make pintas and nit-pick when someone is only browsing as oppose to actually investing. To minimize heartaches just be selective of the info you devote your reading time on and don't waste any on those that are not worth your time. What is important is You are Satisfied and Happy with your purchase selection regardless of whatever others say about it. Buti nga you have a condo unit di ba. I know many who would be happy to be in those shoes. :)

thanks for the help guys

I will look into this investment more closely over the next month

I think criticism are good when there is truth to it.

Buying a condo is like marrying a girl, you'll never know how they really are till you've lived with them.

Just like looking for the perfect girl, you might list all the qualities that you want her to have. You have this perfect image of how she will make you happy and be with you till you're old and grey.

And then you find her.
She might not exactly have all the qualities you are looking for but you fall in love with her anyway. When you love someone, you don't like people who doesn't like her. You are blind to her shortcomings and can only see her good qualities. You find reasons to like her more.

Then you marry her.
The lucky majority finds the hapiness they are looking for. The unlucky few discovers that love is not enough. You can't live with her anymore so you get an anullment.

As for your perfect condo, when you find that it's not that perfect, you sell it and log on to skyscrapercity to find a new one to buy! :)

uyyy sana ganon din sa marriage.. pwedeng palitan pag di ok.. hahahaha

Buying a condo is like marrying a girl, you'll never know how they really are till you've lived with them.

Just like looking for the perfect girl, you might list all the qualities that you want her to have. You have this perfect image of how she will make you happy and be with you till you're old and grey.

And then you find her.
She might not exactly have all the qualities you are looking for but you fall in love with her anyway. When you love someone, you don't like people who doesn't like her. You are blind to her shortcomings and can only see her good qualities. You find reasons to like her more.

Then you marry her.
The lucky majority finds the hapiness they are looking for. The unlucky few discovers that love is not enough. You can't live with her anymore so you get an anullment.

As for your perfect condo, when you find that it's not that perfect, you sell it and log on to skyscrapercity to find a new one to buy! :)

^^ Well said Oddvertising. I have not known of a perfect marriage and I doubt there is a perfect condo as well. When buying/investing in a unit, you learn to make compromises and just like marriage you just have to continue working on whatever short-comings. Kung di talaga maayos then that's when divorce/selling time comes into play. Dvorak, Kung sa America may divorce sa Pinas naman eh may kabit no#1, no#2, no#3...hehehe... :D

Perhaps you should clearly elaborate your one liner below. In criticising other projects we have to be careful to speak the truth so as not to hurt the sensibilities of some investors. But there are many ways in which people "speak the truth" in criticism that are not really truth. Most obvious of these are situations where the whole truth isn't told. Critical facts and details are omitted, rendering the "truth" that has been told a lie. In this situation such "truths" may reflect truth, but they also reflect vested interest or bias on some condo buyers.




I think criticism are good when there is truth to it.

In judging any critique or taking any advice, you always have to ask who is giving it and why he is giving it.

As for the "truth", I think we are really lucky that people in this forum go out of their way just to provide us with research and analysis of our investments.

It's up to the individual to put the "truth" that he has learned into perspective with his overall objective.

I don't agree with Akaflores that any criticism is good as long as it's the truth.

What if your wife ask you if she looks good in her new dress but you don't like it. The only right thing to do is a very quick and without any hesitation "yes dear you look great"! :jk:

Hi Friends. I am new in this forum. I am interested in investing in a reasonably lot within a residential development by the sea within 3 hours travel time to/from Manila.

Anvaya Cove, Kawayan Cove and Punta Fuego are way above my price range. I checked out Playa Calatagan but found out that the residential lots are situated across the road from where the "village" seafront amenities are. Secondly, there only a handful of lots with seaviews and have been snapped up already.

I was referred to Cresta Grande and am intrigued by it. This is being developed by Cala Paniman, the group responsible for Puerto Azul. Buyers will have 10 years usage rights to Puerto Azul facilities. Plus this is located on a cliff so seaview and mountain vistas are assured. Here is the website:

http://www.crestagrande.com

Appreciate anu additional information on top of what is in the website. Price range? Pros and Cons?

Thanks

^^ Very interesting seaside development. I wish the website gives more information.

Hi Friends. I am new in this forum. I am interested in investing in a reasonably lot within a residential development by the sea within 3 hours travel time to/from Manila.

Anvaya Cove, Kawayan Cove and Punta Fuego are way above my price range. I checked out Playa Calatagan but found out that the residential lots are situated across the road from where the "village" seafront amenities are. Secondly, there only a handful of lots with seaviews and have been snapped up already.

I was referred to Cresta Grande and am intrigued by it. This is being developed by Cala Paniman, the group responsible for Puerto Azul. Buyers will have 10 years usage rights to Puerto Azul facilities. Plus this is located on a cliff so seaview and mountain vistas are assured. Here is the website:

http://www.crestagrande.com

Appreciate anu additional information on top of what is in the website. Price range? Pros and Cons?

Thanks

thanks for opening up this thread yumongous. i have heard about crestagrande too and have been told na sulit din bumili doon. let's keep this thread going. i'm more of a seaside person myself.

Hello everyone, in my experience talking with clients, I have heard my share of interest or curiosity on Loft units, as there are more companies coming out with it. I have also heard numerous misunderstandings on Loft units

Considering future designs of G&W towers, we wanted to know what you think or what you prefer...Loft Units or Flat Units? Why?

As Architects, we have studied that Flat units are still more beneficial for clients, as it can give better efficiency in design and result in bigger rooms (given the same floor area). It is also beneficial for elderly clients who specifically choose condominiums for the ease of moving up and down elevators and not having to have stairs to deal with.

Although Flat units are more expensive to build than lofts are, we still stick to this format because we feel it is better for the clients. However, we would love to hear people's comments on this if possible...

Gibson,
This is an interesting thread you opened up here. There was a brief discussion of the practicality and efficiency of the loft layout in the MPR (McKinley Park Residence) thread which I'm reposting to this thread due to the topic at hand. Hope it helps not only with your info gathering but also provide good information for others especially to those looking to buy/invest in one. Hope it generates further discussion about the topic. Needless to say, for my money, I'd rather have/buy a unit with a traditional condo/flat layout than a loft/bi-level one in the Philippines. :)

Don't you think the loft layout is more appropriately suited for temperate climate than one that's tropical? In the Philippines the tropical weather (hot & humid) necessitates the use of some type of cooling system such as air-conditioning and since you can't effectively isolate, segregate or section off the different living areas in a loft unit because of it's two story open layout design (unless you wall/glass/curtain off areas which defeats the purpose of having a loft), there is a bigger area to cool down which translates to higher electricity bill. I remember having to pay higher gas/electric bill especially during summer and winter months which is why I'm just sharing my observation based on my own loft living experience here in the U.S. so what more kaya sa Pinas which is so hot and humid most of if not throughout the whole year.

Granted the loft's open layout is designed to make the unit look airy ("maaliwalas" or "fresco") tingnan, it's not really that energy efficient especially if you have two story walls of glass windows facing the West. It'll bring a lot of light in as well as the heat kanya init din sigurado niyan. Same reason I did not invest in a glassy building development in Pinas/FBGC because the Manila Golf / Makati skyline I covete necessitates choosing a West facing unit. And since nakabilad yang unit sa afternoon sun mas mahirap at matagal din mapalamig yung unit so just imagine how much worse a loft unit will be because of the combination of all that glass, open floor plan and high ceiling. And since hot hair tends to float up while cold air sinks, the loft area (2nd floor), which is normally used as the master's bedroom, is where one will experience the most temperature swings. also.. pag bi levels (lofts) medyo reduce ang noise.. kasi nga high ang ceiling.. unlike sa ibang condo.. like don sa condo nang friend ko sa boni ridge.. konting ingay lang.. nag complain na yung tenant sa baba.. eh papaano na kaya kung talagang may party.. it is energy efficient when it comes to natural lighting, pag high ceiling, more light will come to the place. pero just like what kuya boe said pag sobrang init nga coz' the sun will pass directly to warm the air and surface there. Yes Steph tama ka, The loft concept is efficient bringing light in since a portion of the total second floor area closest to the windows is left open to the lower floor but the sun light will also warm up the whole place (especially the upper floor) which means in tropical weather like the Philippines, mas iinit yung unit so mas madalas at malakas din ang gamit ng aircon para palamigin yang unit which is where the inefficiency comes in. I still think mas malakas ang gamit ng electricity magpalamig ng unit kaysa mag ilaw which was why I said lofts are not really that energy efficient. Again, it's more of an observation which I'd like to share to who ever is interested in trying out loft living and I am not in any way bad mouthing loft projects/developments for that matter. ok naman ang concept nila na lofts eh, atleast iba sila... pero i think it's not that hot naman coz' of the high ceiling, pag mas malaki ang space, mas hindi ganun kainit, sabi nga nila, refreshing atmosphere nga... but you have point about the place when it comes to cooling it... Another observation I have regarding Loft layouts/units is it does not make efficient use of space. The stairs and high ceiling not only eat up valuable space, but also not very child & elderly friendly when a unit is bi-level. Furthermore the size of a typical 1 bdrm loft unit is on the smaller side so in reality I would have had to either go with a 2 or 3 bedroom unit which makes the price point not as attractive and enticing anymore. Tapos nga aside from being rather small and tight downstairs, the upstairs (bedroom) naman also tends to get quite rather hot (hot air rises and stays on the upper floor). Though loft type units let a lot of light in and provides an airy feel, it also absorbs a lot of the sunlight and the open layout makes it more expensive to cool down than a regular condo layout imo. Just my observation lang naman.

Clarifiction between multi-level units and loft.

We designed a multi-level unit before for a developer (LPL GReenhills - across Club Filipino), which is actually 2 storeys of a building with stairs inside the unit. The is an actual 2 storey unit with full ceiling heights.

Lofts are more of 1.8 storeys, where both levels are a little lower than standard. I noticed this in the Rockwell project before in their model unit. It is high, if you compare it to a single flat unit, but it is actually lower than 2 storeys.

The predicament lies in the fact that the higher the ceiling heights, the longer the stairway is, the less efficient the use of the space is. It was only beneficial with the LP towers as the unit areas are very big there!

I was surprised to see that units as small as 38 sqm were made into lofts, which meant that it is only 19sqm of area on each level. Consider the fact that they have to build a stairway, with unusable area on the top and the bottom of it (that eats up from your small 19 sqm unit). The ratio of usable and unusable space is quite high.

Somehow, the people I hear that likes it says it feels like it is bigger or thinks that it is bigger?!

Does anybody know if the 38 sqm is only the lower floor and the floored area on the top floor, or does it include the open space that they don't build on?

it's like 25 sqm on the lower floor and another 13 sqm on the loft..

Clarifiction between multi-level units and loft.

We designed a multi-level unit before for a developer (LPL GReenhills - across Club Filipino), which is actually 2 storeys of a building with stairs inside the unit. The is an actual 2 storey unit with full ceiling heights.

Lofts are more of 1.5 storeys, where both levels are a little lower than standard. I noticed this in the Rockwell project before in their model unit. It is high, if you compare it to a single flat unit, but it is actually lower than 2 storeys.

The predicament lies in the fact that the higher the ceiling heights, the longer the stairway is, the less efficient the use of the space is. It was only beneficial with the LP towers as the unit areas are very big there!

I was surprised to see that units as small as 38 sqm were made into lofts, which meant that it is only 19sqm of area on each level. Consider the fact that they have to build a stairway, with unusable area on the top and the bottom of it (that eats up from your small 19 sqm unit). The ratio of usable and unusable space is quite high.

Somehow, the people I hear that likes it says it feels like it is bigger or thinks that it is bigger?!

Does anybody know if the 38 sqm is only the lower floor and the floored area on the top floor, or does it include the open space that they don't build on?

it's like 25 sqm on the lower floor and another 13 sqm on the loft..

Ah, thanks for the clarification... :)

Oh, by the way, my room in our old house used to be loft type as well. I had computer/study area and book shelves on the top floor :)

^^ I find loft units really appealing... but you're quite right about the inefficient use of space. In the end, if I have to decide between a loft unit and a flat condo with the same price point, I'd probably go for the latter as it would be more practical.

I really wished to live in a mountanous cliff, pero yung di naman masyado mataas, pabang bundok... It really looks peacefully kapag sa tabi ng dagat... Any sample pics/lots/houses?

Gibson, Yup tama si Dvorak that generally speaking in a loft the lower floor's finished area has a bigger useable area footage than the upper floor since a portion of the upper-floor space (usually closest to the window) is left open to the lower floor. That's why there is a double whammy of wasted/inefficient use of space (the staircase and the open space) in a loft layout which is nakakahinayang kasi you are really paying top money for useable square footage when buying a unit in a cosmo city/metropolis such as FBGC, Makati, or Ortigas so imo it's better to maximize your space di ba. Lofts are a novelty in Pinas since it's a rather new concept there and only time will tell if this concept will trascend fad and become part of the mainstream option.

Btw just another observation. As far as views, lofts offer a narrower but higher/vertical views while a flat/condo allows for a wider/horizontal view given a unit of the same useable area footage. If one compares this to a TV set, the loft will be the standard 3X4 aspect ratio while the flat/condo will be the HD 16X9. Mas picturesque when you have a wider view since you get alot more of it which is another reason I also like/prefer a flat over a loft. :)

Gibson, I think lofts are a good idea and because of the taller headroom, it has more of an airy feel to it. However it is best if the unit is of good size as somewhat similar here in Soho NY where they converted those old run down factories into an expansive lofts. I think over there it's more of a fad since the idea of loft designs are fairly new, but then again, I've never seen an actual loft with smaller size.
For smaller size loft maybe it's more space saving to use a spiral staircase.

I would imagine that a loft-style unit will be less expensive than a multi-level unit, right? The price point will always be a factor. I'm just surprised that they will cram a loft into a 38 sq.m. floor area with 1.8 story. I think it would be better be called a box-style living, the second floor being a mezzanine.

Forumer @Bustero designed one before but it was geared for low-cost condo-housing

Another question that comes to mind about the heating/cooling system, is this project going to be centralized airconditioning or separate airconditioning units?

I prefer flat na high ceiling :)

it's like 25 sqm on the lower floor and another 13 sqm on the loft..

http://robinsonsproperties.com.ph/images/mckinley/mpr-rm-1.jpg

I was looking at this plan in particular. And It does not seem like it is 25 at the lower floor and 13 on the upper floor. Without actual dimensions, just by using proportions...I calculated the width to be somewhere around 3 meters, the door is standard .8m (It covered 3 tiles) So assuming 3 tiles is .8m, the width had 10 tiles, rounded it up to 3M. Calculated the length, which is 18 tiles which is 6 meters. My calculation is of course inaccurate, but is seems closer to 18 sqm rather than 25 sqm.

I guess all I was unclear about is if they count the open space on the second floor as part of the 38 sqm or not. Cause if they do, then it is indeed a double whammy...wasted space on the stair bottom and above and also the open space which you can't use.

I based my answer on the actual units at GA Tower.. I measured my unit and from memory, I came up with 27.68sqm on the lower floor and about 14.95 sqm on the loft.. for a total of 42.63 sqm or something like that.. but I'm not an expert..

http://robinsonsproperties.com.ph/images/mckinley/mpr-rm-1.jpg

I was looking at this plan in particular. And It does not seem like it is 25 at the lower floor and 13 on the upper floor. Without actual dimensions, just by using proportions...I calculated the width to be somewhere around 3 meters, the door is standard .8m (It covered 3 tiles) So assuming 3 tiles is .8m, the width had 10 tiles, rounded it up to 3M. Calculated the length, which is 18 tiles which is 6 meters. My calculation is of course inaccurate, but is seems closer to 18 sqm rather than 25 sqm.

I guess all I was unclear about is if they count the open space on the second floor as part of the 38 sqm or not. Cause if they do, then it is indeed a double whammy...wasted space on the stair bottom and above and also the open space which you can't use.

i like both loft and standard flat...i like loft IF there's no bedroom in the unit so as to allow some privacy or to at least hide the bed...i don't like the idea of a standard flat studio like: you're lying in your bed you can see your coffeemaker in the kitchen...i like standard flat IF there's one or 2 bedrooms included...just my opinion, to each his own.

For all of a loft's disadvantages, you've gotta admit that it looks really cool. A well-designed loft is something that I'd love to show off.

Gibson,

I have a very strong interest in your question because I think it goes to the root of some of the most important considerations in buying a condo.

Beyond lofts, for a moment: I love bilevels more than lofts because they use the space better and are quieter and more energy-efficient. But if you're willing to target higher-end customers, I would strongly consider trilevel or quadlevel condos. Done creatively, they are visually striking and very practical, which is what wealthier clients will pay extra for. You could, for instance, build just 10 or 20 such units, place them on high floors, and charge a premium. (Why settle for the conventional 2 or 4 penthouses, when you could have a dozen of them,
all 3 or 4 storeys tall, with maybe only 50 sqm on each floor?) Just _imagine_ how appealing a 4-storey condo would be if it were based on the 50th floor with a fabulous view to match!

Benefits of lofts:

1. Privacy. This is the single most compelling reason for a loft or bilevel. Let's be honest about this. Do you really want your downstairs neighbors knowing how and when you have sex, particularly when they need their sleep, and you're doing it at 3 am? Conversely, do you really want to hear your upstairs neighbors shouting in them middle of the night?

2. Architectural appeal. High ceilings are beautiful, particularly if there's a plant shelf on one of the walls half way up.

3. Elegance. As Midsunset92 said, it's nice to hide the bed. It looks so tacky to have your messy bed in view as guests come in the front door.

4. Isolation. Keep the kitchen, the living room, the kids rooms, and the master all very separated. Great for noise and energy management. Trilevels and quadlevels are particularly handy in this regard.

Loft problems:

1. Spiral staircases look good, but they're useless for moving furniture. Better, use a single-flight straight staircase, and put a slanted closet under it to somewhat recapture space that would otherwise be wasted. This technique has been used in the US for decades. Or maybe turn it into a half bathroom (i.e. sink and toilet only).

2. Energy efficiency. Give the buyer an option to glass-in the loft, particularly with double-pane glass. This can keep energy bills down while still allowing the people inside the loft to see out the 2-storey living room windows. Or allow an opaque material like drywall instead of glass, for more privacy.

3. Z-lofts are a social disaster. One Rockwell (due 2010) is proposing to include these. For those not familiar with the term, a Z-loft is a loft in which the upper floor is placed on top of the neighboring condo. This is a bad idea because now you share a wall _and_ a floor with one set of neighbors. No privacy, no sale.

4. Lack of upgrades in existing lofts. Think about it: someone who purchases a 1-bedroom loft could have purchased a 1-bedroom flat for less. But they didn't because they like the architectural appeal of a loft, and are willing to pay for it. So then why do all loft builders in Manila seem to think that the bathrooms should only include a shower, or at best, a small tub? The loft customer has more money and is willing to invest it in a better home. Include a big jaccuzzi, and maybe more storage in the bedroom.

5. Existing lofts tend to have 2 bedroom walls directly boardering neighbors. Try to rearrange the floorplan so that there's a bathroom between alternating neighbors (well, a pair of them, if the neighbor is a mirror
image). This will dramatically improve noise isolation and therefore privacy.

6. Insufficient ventilation. Lofts are particularly susceptible to steam rising up from the kitchen and making the upper floor unbreathable. So be sure
to include ventilation fans in the kitchen and all bathrooms.

7. Wrong demand ratio. If you look at existing condos which feature lofts, such as Joya at Rockwell (I've seen the inventory sheet recently), it's very clear that the builder underestimated the popularity of lofts, because they have run out. If you conclude from your survey that 30% of customers want lofts, then make 30% of your units into lofts -- not 10% or 80%. Please
also consider bilevels, trilevels, and quadlevels, which I think make more sense then lofts, particularly beyond 1 bedroom.

Good luck with your current and future projects. I hope this gives you some sellable ideas, and ultimately benefits future residents.

I based my answer on the actual units at GA Tower.. I measured my unit and from memory, I came up with 27.68sqm on the lower floor and about 14.95 sqm on the loft.. for a total of 42.63 sqm or something like that.. but I'm not an expert..

Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about 38 sqm units...haha cause I just added 25sqm and 13sqm. I was very surprised to hear that the open area was counted as part of the sqm tabulation, that is why I checked the layout of other loft units and got an estimate. Turns out that the open are is indeed counted as part of your sqm area.

You know, on a developer standpoint, lofts are very very profitable pala...

1) You have half the number of hallways, because you only have to have one every other floor
2) Your entire building will be shorter...(i.e. 43 storey loft building will be shorter than 43 storey flat units with correct ceiling heights)
3) The open area in the living is practically construction cost free but yet sells at the same cost per sqm as the area with cement floor.

At one time, we did our own study also for loft type units, however, it was disapproved by Arch Gilbert Yu because it will not fit the market in Fort Bonifacio. What would fit the clients are really bi-level units...but to make it beautiful, the total floor area has to be at least 250 sqm (125 below and 125 above). Even at our B-T-O prices starting at 49,980, that is a whoping 12.5M already on the lowest floor unit.

Also you can add to that, a sleek looking ceiling fan around the center to help cool the place down and also to ventilate the stagnant air above.

I don't agree on the following:

1. open area in lofts are counted in the sqm tabulation - as you can see from the 25 + 13 tabulation, the open area above the living room wasn't counted in the size. 25 being the size of the lower floor and the 13 the size on the 2nd floor.

2. Loft building are shorter than ordinary buildings?? How can this be as you have almost 1.6 to 1.8 floors per floor on a loft building. So a 43 storey loft building will be equal to at least a 68 storey ordinary building in height.


Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about 38 sqm units...haha cause I just added 25sqm and 13sqm. I was very surprised to hear that the open area was counted as part of the sqm tabulation, that is why I checked the layout of other loft units and got an estimate. Turns out that the open are is indeed counted as part of your sqm area.

You know, on a developer standpoint, lofts are very very profitable pala...

1) You have half the number of hallways, because you only have to have one every other floor
2) Your entire building will be shorter...(i.e. 43 storey loft building will be shorter than 43 storey flat units with correct ceiling heights)
3) The open area in the living is practically construction cost free but yet sells at the same cost per sqm as the area with cement floor.

At one time, we did our own study also for loft type units, however, it was disapproved by Arch Gilbert Yu because it will not fit the market in Fort Bonifacio. What would fit the clients are really bi-level units...but to make it beautiful, the total floor area has to be at least 250 sqm (125 below and 125 above). Even at our B-T-O prices starting at 49,980, that is a whoping 12.5M already on the lowest floor unit.

I don't agree on the following:

1. open area in lofts are counted in the sqm tabulation - as you can see from the 25 + 13 tabulation, the open area above the living room wasn't counted in the size. 25 being the size of the lower floor and the 13 the size on the 2nd floor.

Interesting...yeah you are right in your tabulation of you unit at GA, thanks!

However in the MPR example that I estimated, it seems like the open area was counted as part of the unit. The unit was 38 sqm total, and the lower floor was around 19 sqm...could it be that the standards are different?

I hope someone can enlighten us.

I don't agree on the following:
2. Loft building are shorter than ordinary buildings?? How can this be as you have almost 1.6 to 1.8 floors per floor on a loft building. So a 43 storey loft building will be equal to at least a 68 storey ordinary building in height.

I guess when we say 43 storey loft, what it really means is 21 floors worth of units, and since each unit is counted as 2 floors, they consider it 42 plus the lobby = 43 floors.

Normally, a standard flat unit which we build is 2.9 to 3 Meters per floor...while the lofts are 5.48M (MPR figures from the MPR thread)? therfore:

(42 x 3) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 129 Meters
(21 x 5.48) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 118.08 Meters

Wow so ang balconies pala in some developments are also computed/counted as part of the unit's total square footage kanya it's included in the calculation of a unit's homeowner monthly assessment. On GW's projects, do you apply the same HOA calculation method for your units with balconies? Curious lang naman kasi for me OK lang to include balconies in the calculation if it is big enough for actual outdoor living however on the other hand the inclusion of a smallish balcony/ledge in the HOA calculation falls in the same "iffy" category as calculating the loft's open space as part of the total square footage Gibson mentioned some developers do. Just that given a choice I'd rather opt for having a bigger indoor living space and do away with the balcony if it's not going to be big enough naman for realistic outdoor living.

Also you can add to that, a sleek looking ceiling fan around the center to help cool the place down and also to ventilate the stagnant air above.

Yeah, ceiling fans are great for inexpensive cooling and circulation. Better yet, I'd put a powerful exhaust fan in the ceiling. That way, you could cool the loft at night by leaving a downstairs window open. They do this sort of thing in desert homes in the US. It saves a lot on energy bills and is very effective when the outside air is cooler than inside.

ohh ok.. so you were comparing a 21 floor all loft types to a 43 floor regular type floors.. got confused there.. thought you were comparing 43 all loft floors.


Interesting...yeah you are right in your tabulation of you unit at GA, thanks!

However in the MPR example that I estimated, it seems like the open area was counted as part of the unit. The unit was 38 sqm total, and the lower floor was around 19 sqm...could it be that the standards are different?

I hope someone can enlighten us.



I guess when we say 43 storey loft, what it really means is 21 floors worth of units, and since each unit is counted as 2 floors, they consider it 42 plus the lobby = 43 floors.

Normally, a standard flat unit which we build is 2.9 to 3 Meters per floor...while the lofts are 5.48M (MPR figures from the MPR thread)? therfore:

(42 x 3) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 129 Meters
(21 x 5.48) + (lobby x 5 Meters) = 118.08 Meters

ohh ok.. so you were comparing a 21 floor all loft types to a 43 floor regular type floors.. got confused there.. thought you were comparing 43 all loft floors.

Hehe, its all very confusing even to me...I guess I was using MPR as my basis for my comments as, it is all loft building. They did meniton that they are 43 (or 40+) storeys high.

I am just trying to figure out the standards that are being used, as it is a new concept here in Manila...but as I do my research, I am thinking not all projects use the same standards.

Using GA as an example..

Lobby = 6 meters
2nd floor to 30 floors = 6 meters per floor, so that's 28 floors (excluding 13th) = 28 x 6 = 168 meters
arch on roof = 10 meters?

6 + 168 + 10 = +- 184 meters

Hehe, its all very confusing even to me...I guess I was using MPR as my basis for my comments as, it is all loft building. They did meniton that they are 43 (or 40+) storeys high.

I am just trying to figure out the standards that are being used, as it is a new concept here in Manila...but as I do my research, I am thinking not all projects use the same standards.

Wow so balconies pala are also computed/counted as part of the unit's total square footage kanya it's included in the calculation of a unit's homeowner monthly assessment. On GW's projects, do you apply the same HOA calculation method for your units with balconies? Curious lang naman kasi for me this falls in the same "iffy" category as calculating the loft's open space as part of the total square footage Gibson mentioned some developers do. Just that given a choice I'd rather opt for having a bigger indoor living space and do away with the balcony especially if it is not big enough for outdoor living but that's just me.

Actually, in all our B-T-O projects we have never had balconies. However, the loft open area I think is different from a balcony. In my own simple terms I would define it this way:

1) Balconies - an area that has floor and is outdoor, yet is within unit perimeter
2) Loft Open area - as area that is within the unit perimeter, but does not have a floor

Areas are calculated beased on the perimiter of your unit, so the loft area, although has no floor is within the perimeter of your unit. That is where I am confused, as technically they are not breaking any laws in including it...but since there is nothing to be built, I think it is not fair if it is counted as part of the floor area.

The balcony on the other hand, one of the reasons we never built a condo with balconies, is simple...we believe people on a tight budget would rather use the are inside their unit as living room area, rather than a balcony area. Moreover, the cost of the balcony is more expensive as it is not only a floor slab (like the living room) but it also has to have a drain and waterproofing (since it is outdoor). However, these days...market is getting better and more people like the luxury of a balcony, that is why we added balconies on The Grand Hamptons Tower 2.


In terms of having it as part of the HOA calculations...I would refer that question to our Property Management company's professional opinion or maybe a lawyers definition.

You see in the beginning I thought it should not be...but it is not as simple as that. Because in every building, each of the units differ in size. an example would be One Roxas Triangle, or even The Grand Hamptons Tower 2, where certian floors have units with balconies and certain floors do not have.

The basic formula of HOA is (total building maintenance expense / total floor area = yearly amount per sqm) Then (Yearly amount /12 = mothly per sqm amount). If you do not count the balcony, then the units with and without balconies will be charged the same HOA dues each month...in that case, the ones without a balcony will complain, as it is unfar because their units are smaller.

If balconied unit is 48 sqm (where 45 is unit inside area and 3 is balcony) and the non-balconied unit is only 45 sqm. It may also seem unfair for the 45 sqm unit to pay the same as the 48 sqm unit. If they were the 2 units in the entire building, then the formula is:

total building maint cost / 90sqm (45 + 45)

Where as if you count the balcony

total building maint cost / 93sqm (48 + 45)

It does make a difference...I hope this makes sense

Using GA as an example..

Lobby = 6 meters
2nd floor to 30 floors = 6 meters per floor, so that's 28 floors (excluding 13th) = 28 x 6 = 168 meters
arch on roof = 10 meters?

6 + 168 + 10 = +- 184 meters

Haha, it seems to me that G.A. has better quality standards than MPR...6 meters per floor, while MPR is only 5.48M per floor...very interesting indeed!

Yeah, ceiling fans are great for inexpensive cooling and circulation. Better yet, I'd put a powerful exhaust fan in the ceiling. That way, you could cool the loft at night by leaving a downstairs window open. They do this sort of thing in desert homes in the US. It saves a lot on energy bills and is very effective when the outside air is cooler than inside.

Just put aircon in the lower level and another aircon in the upper level.

In my old house, I had a loft for a room, and the A/C was only in the lower level. Even a strong fan...that would blow all my stuff around in the top floor cannot suck up the air from the lower floor.

yup.. solve na problem.. sa unit namin... 2 aircon lang.. isang 1hp sa baba.. then 1.25hp sa taas.. if I open the door sa bedroom.. kaya nang palamigin yung buong unit..

sa umaga.. what I do is I open the window and slightly open the main door..

Just put aircon in the lower level and another aircon in the upper level.

In my old house, I had a loft for a room, and the A/C was only in the lower level. Even a strong fan...that would blow all my stuff around in the top floor cannot suck up the air from the lower floor.

@condo_dude: Actually before, we had a few clients who made us study lofts for our Kensginton and Hamptons Tower 1.

We studied making bi-level (since it is on the 9th and 10th floor, the unit owner will buy same unit on both floors) unit, and the study went very well. We are able to make bi-level units with the benefits of a loft type unit since the Hamptons had floor to ceiling windows. Furthermore, the slab on the second floor is also concrete, making it more durable and less noisy if there are people on top and at the bottom floor! However, the smallest unit we made was 87 sqm.

To the other clients, there is no effect, except on the 10th floor having one less door and one less unit.

We can actually make lofts out of our units, but it is only feasible if the client comes in early, and 2 consecutive floors are available.

Thanks for the very clear explanation Gibson. It does make sense when you put it that way. Just curious, in GW projects, how does parking ownership affect the calculation of a unit owner's HOA monthly assessment/dues? I assume following the same logic used for the balcony, the assigned parking slots will be included in the calculation of that unit's HOA monthly assessment/dues but just want to make sure kasi baka naman my assumption is wrong. Just that I know of some developments that don't include parking slots in their calculation of the unit HOA dues eventhough the parking slot(s) is actually assigned space (considered common area/space daw so it's upkeep is part of the building maintenance budget daw yun). Thanks again.

Thanks for the very clear explanation Gibson. It does make sense when you put it that way. Just curious, in GW projects, how does parking ownership affect the calculation of a unit owner's HOA monthly assessment/dues? I assume following the same logic, respective assigned parking slots will be included in the calculation of each unit HOA monthly assessment/dues but just want to make sure kasi baka naman my assumption is wrong. Just that I know of some developments that don't include parking slots in their calculation of the unit HOA dues eventhough the parking slot(s) is actually assigned space (considered common area/space daw so it's upkeep is part of the building maintenance budget daw yun). Thanks again.


The HOA details of Penhurst:

Total cost of maintaining the building tower and the parking area is separated (as per the recommendation of FPDSavills)...Therefore, we have HOA for the parking slots.

The reason is that some unit owners may have 4 slots, while others living abroad do not have one, and only rent when they are here. Property Management cannot charge the same HOA for units that do not have parking, while others who have 4 parking slots pay the same.

The good side, is the HOA for the residential units are low at only Php 55.00 per sqm (ayala charges Php 75.00 in Boni Ridge - roughly same ammenities with Penhurst, but penhurst has less residents) and each parking slot is Php 500 per month. - The smallest unit in Penhurst is 93 sqm.

If we fixed the number of parking slots to each unit, then there will be no HOA for the parking, or like what Philtown would do...insert the HOA of the parking in the HOA of the unit. Since everyone has equal ownership, there is no sense to split it up. But each unit owner will be obligate to buy parking space, even if they don't need one.

Thanks again for the explanation/clarification Gibson. The info you are sharing with us is very helpful! I am really glad and thankful that you've joined SSCF because you are indeed an asset to the forum! :)

Thanks again for the explanation Gibson. The info you are sharing with us is very helpful! I am really glad and thankful that you've joined SSCF! :)

3cr...I am addicted to SSCF na!

I've witnessed meetings about HOA...Calculating HOA is very tricky task to do. It is something where you have to literally please everyone...and if you try to please someone a little more, the others will get angry...so it is like balancing on top of a razor sharp edge. Takes a lot of experience to get it right...we re glad that FPDSavills, with its experience really do a good job...because everyone expects 110% excellent service, but as much as possible keep the HOA as low as they can.

Hehehe...told you so! Di bale we're all in the same boat, one big cyber family na tayo dito. :)

I would imagine that a loft-style unit will be less expensive than a multi-level unit, right? The price point will always be a factor. I'm just surprised that they will cram a loft into a 38 sq.m. floor area with 1.8 story. I think it would be better be called a box-style living, the second floor being a mezzanine.

Another question that comes to mind about the heating/cooling system, is this project going to be centralized airconditioning or separate airconditioning units? Ang liit ng 38SQM as shown in the MPR (McKinley Park Residence) thread. When the loft is that small, I'd feel quite claustrophobic even with the high ceilings since one can hardly move around with relative ease in such limited area tapos a portion of that is even eaten up by the stairs leading to the upper floor.

As for cooling, loft type units will probably be best served with some form of split type air-conditioning unit gaya sa Metropolitan's Sky-lofts and One Rockwell's Z-lofts. I think same thing din is used to cool the loft units in Rockwell's Joya and The Residence in Greenbelt. Ewan ko nga lang kung ganun din and gagamitin sa MPR though.

We had a few clients who made us study lofts for our Kensginton and Hamptons Tower 1. We studied making bi-level (since it is on the 9th and 10th floor, the unit owner will buy same unit on both floors) unit, and the study went very well. We are able to make bi-level units with the benefits of a loft type unit since the Hamptons had floor to ceiling windows. Furthermore, the slab on the second floor is also concrete, making it more durable and less noisy if there are people on top and at the bottom floor! However, the smallest unit we made was 87 sqm. To the other clients, there is no effect, except on the 10th floor having one less door and one less unit. We can actually make lofts out of our units, but it is only feasible if the client comes in early, and 2 consecutive floors are available. Gibson,
So the loft option is a possibility in Grand Hamptons 2 for anybody interested in such a unit, provided of course two units one on top of the other is still available? Kasi kung pwedeng i-combine yung (2) one bedroom units and turn it into a loft unit, this may be a great alternative project to those planning on buying one in MPR (McKinley Park Residence) di ba. Well just an idea lang naman... :)


I've witnessed meetings about HOA...Calculating HOA is very tricky task to do. It is something where you have to literally please everyone...and if you try to please someone a little more, the others will get angry...so it is like balancing on top of a razor sharp edge. Takes a lot of experience to get it right...we re glad that FPDSavills, with its experience really do a good job...because everyone expects 110% excellent service, but as much as possible keep the HOA as low as they can. Gibson, I definitely agree with you there bro. You exactly hit it right on the head. Kanya mahirap din when a development has alot of non-essential/basic ammenities kasi mas malakas/madali tumaas din ang HOA assessment dues. :)

Gibson,
So the loft option is a possibility in Grand Hamptons 2 for anybody interested in such a unit, provided of course two units one on top of the other is still available? Kasi kung pwedeng i-combine yung (2) one bedroom units and turn it into a loft unit, this may be a great alternative project to those planning on buying one in MPR (McKinley Park Residence) di ba. Well just an idea lang naman... :)

Yup, if anyone is interested with loft type design, we can make a bi-level unit for them as long as the unit on the upper floor and the lower floor is available. We have done this already in Tower 1, with 1 unit owner, and it can be an alternative from MPR.

Just put aircon in the lower level and another aircon in the upper level.

In my old house, I had a loft for a room, and the A/C was only in the lower level. Even a strong fan...that would blow all my stuff around in the top floor cannot suck up the air from the lower floor.

You're right that a ceiling fan generally does not have enough strength to suck up the air from the bottom floor. I was actually referring to a so-called "whole house fan" which is not a ceiling fan. It is mounted in the ceiling, but it sucks air very powerfully to the outside. By opening a window on the lower floor, you can clear the air in the whole condo in minutes. These are used in newer homes in hot areas of the US because energy prices have gotten out of control here. I suspect that the same problem will occur in Fort Bonifacio 2-4 years from now. (It's basically a whole new Makati being built in a very short period of time.) By then, it will be too late to redesign most of the condos for energy efficieny, so the efficient builders will have a sales advantage.

@condo_dude: Actually before, we had a few clients who made us study lofts for our Kensginton and Hamptons Tower 1.

We studied making bi-level (since it is on the 9th and 10th floor, the unit owner will buy same unit on both floors) unit, and the study went very well. We are able to make bi-level units with the benefits of a loft type unit since the Hamptons had floor to ceiling windows. Furthermore, the slab on the second floor is also concrete, making it more durable and less noisy if there are people on top and at the bottom floor! However, the smallest unit we made was 87 sqm.

To the other clients, there is no effect, except on the 10th floor having one less door and one less unit.

We can actually make lofts out of our units, but it is only feasible if the client comes in early, and 2 consecutive floors are available.

I've heard of this idea before. It makes a lot of sense, actually. As you say, the only problem is that the customer needs to request this very early. And customers also realize that they will have difficulty reselling the unit yeras from now because they have the "weird" unit in an otherwise flat building.

Incidentally, I think most lofts should be located on higher floors, since loft customers are making the statement that they have more to spend on architectural advantages. For some reason, most developments seem to place them on lower floors, e.g. Residences at Greenbelt.

When you combine units, does the customer still need to pay fully 2X the price of one condo?

I've heard of this idea before. It makes a lot of sense, actually. As you say, the only problem is that the customer needs to request this very early. And customers also realize that they will have difficulty reselling the unit yeras from now because they have the "weird" unit in an otherwise flat building. I don't know it may be a selling point actually instead of a liability when it's time to sell because the unit will then be a unique space in the building (one of a kind ika nga). The hardest part of selling such a unit I imagine is finding/matching a buyer who desires as well as willing & able to pay for such novelty (uniques space) being a rather new (not mainstream) concept in Pinas. I imagine the buying market for such a unit (lofts in general) will be smaller and niche-like than the regular condo buying market.

Incidentally, I think most lofts should be located on higher floors, since loft customers are making the statement that they have more to spend on architectural advantages. For some reason, most developments seem to place them on lower floors, e.g. Residences at Greenbelt. I agree, lofts are better located on the upper floor of a highrise for most dramatic effect, impact (view), and statement or at the ground floor for mix (residential and business/office) use purposes especially if it's a converted wherehouse/factory structure than a highrise.

When you combine units, does the customer still need to pay fully 2X the price of one condo? I would think Yes is the answer to your question since the units in question are originally being sold s 2 separate units. I believe the loft option Gibson mentioned is more of an accomodation for those who want one and thus will have to pay for both units at their selling price(s) since the development (GH2) is not really a loft project to begin with. No reason to sell the 2 units as one loft unit at a cheaper price when they can easily sell the 2 units at their regular price(s) di ba? One interesting question here is if the loft conversion HOA monthly dues/assessment will still be computed at the total square footage of the 2 original condo units or at the loft conversion's useable square footage since the living room is usually high ceiling and the upstairs level is smaller because of this. Just like the selling price, my hunch is the HOA computation will be following the same logic/method. Gibson would you be able to kindly confirm if such is indeed the case? Thanks!

@ condo_dude: In reselling a condo unit..in our experience...clients always ask if there are other unit owners with the same unit for sale in the building. If they really like to location, the lobby and the building in general, they tend to stick to their decision...however, all units with the same layout becomes your competiton.

That is why we only do 1 3-BR unit per floor. GH2 only has 17 3-BR of that kind...making it unique, and easy to sell, and have less competition. I imagine if a person wants a loft unit...having the ONLY loft unit in the building could be a plus factor!

Of course, it will all depend on the design that we do and the design that the unit owners ask for. We would of course recommend that the design should still fit within our parameters of practicallity and usability. Depending on the experience of the architects...the unit can be designed to be buyable, or not....even if both costs the same.

I also agree that it would be better on higher floor as well. The design we did with LP towers in Greenhills had regular flat floors on the lower floors, and bi-level units on the upper floors!

condo_dude & 3cr: Yes, it would be the cost of both units of course. It is considered to be a bi-level unit. I do think however that it will be less practical because some of the sqm you "buy" will be allocated to the stairs, and the open area. The HOA would also be equivallent to owning both units.

Of course, what we learned from clients, to each his own...everyone has their own preference, and "use" of space is subjective. Some would consider having the open space from the top floor to the bottom as waste, some would consider it good use of space (in terms of the luxury)...

I guess the most important thing is that we have to give clients a choice. Everyone has their preferences. That is why we have "Model Unit Finish" and "Ready to Receive Finish" options for the unit cosmetic finishes.

It also gets very tricky when designing the layout...we have to design something that everybody will like, and not find fault in. These design features we learn from meeting clients, my dad's experience, and personally living in a condo myself.

Gibson & 3cr: This has been a useful exercise. I think we are converging to a few conclusions:

1. Wow! Look at the survey: it says that roughly HALF of buyers (if we represent average buyers, as we probably do) find lofts superior to flats. That says that new buildings should be 50% lofts. But I would suggest more than that, because the average new development in Manila is 20% lofts at best, so there is a lot of pent-up demand out there. Look at MPR -- doesn't complete until late 2009, and they're already 80% sold!

2. Lofts should be on higher floors than flats in the same building.

3. The sun will burn out before we find a fair way of allocating HOA dues. Whatever rules are used, it is probably best to state them very clearly in the bylaws so that buyers will not have an excuse to complain later.

4. When a buyer purchases 2 condos and connects them into a bilevel, the price should be the same as 2 condos separately. Although, there is probably some small savings from consolidated government fees. And the developer gets to sell 2 units to a buyer who probably never would have bought from him otherwise, so maybe a small discount is actually in the developer's interest.

I don't think I'm the only person on this forum who is very interested in seeing your architectural plans. Maybe your firm will want feedback from us before finalizing their next design.

Gibson & 3cr: This has been a useful exercise. I think we are converging to a few conclusions:

1. Wow! Look at the survey: it says that roughly HALF of buyers (if we represent average buyers, as we probably do) find lofts superior to flats. That says that new buildings should be 50% lofts. But I would suggest more than that, because the average new development in Manila is 20% lofts at best, so there is a lot of pent-up demand out there. Look at MPR -- doesn't complete until late 2009, and they're already 80% sold!

I believe flat units based on the above survey at this moment is leading 9 to 8. You see, when Tower 1 was being marketed, it was the 2-BR units that got sold out first. Since many clients were still looking for 2-BR units, we had to result in combining units.

There were 2 choices:

1) 2 (1-BR) unit side by side, combined will make 90 sqm.
2) 2 (1-BR) unit above each other.

It was very favorable to combining units, because it decreases the number of units per floor, and people like less units per floor. Given both designs as an option, out of 15 clients...14 chose the flat layout, and 1 chose the bi-level layout. Because given the same area, the unit which is side by side was able to net a bigger master's bedroom, a bigger living and dining over the bi-level unit.

I was actually surprised when I was surfing around this forum, that there is quite an interest in loft type units. Which is why I started this thread to see exactly why, and how we can improve our offer of bi-level units in the future.

Maybe if we had a building half bi-level and half regular units, then we can market faster! :) As in every other floor goes bi-level, flat, bi-level, flat...so all bi-level are neighbors, and all flat are neighbors. Then clients can now have a bi-level on a lower and higher floor...while flat layout can have lower and higher floors too! Am I dreaming or what?!

Gibson & 3cr: This has been a useful exercise. I think we are converging to a few conclusions:
3. The sun will burn out before we find a fair way of allocating HOA dues. Whatever rules are used, it is probably best to state them very clearly in the bylaws so that buyers will not have an excuse to complain later.

Actually, in our experience, the HOA is very straight forward. Because there is a direct relationship between the cost of maintaining the building, and its area. Each and every inch of a building is titles and measured.

The problem lies in

1) The inconsistency of different buildings
2) The lack of communication of the reasoning behind HOA rules and regulations

Most of the time, people complain about HOA is because they were not informed of how it was assessed, or why it is assessed that way. In our experience, our management suggests that we hold meetings regularly, to inform the residents about them.

Without communication to unit owners and residents...they tend to compare with other building owners. Since it is inconsistent, then people will start to compalin about it. However, it will always be inconsistent, because the HOA to some extent has something to do with how te building was marketed and sold...like the parking example we mentioned a while ago.

Here is a sample layout of a 1 bdrm (38 SQM) loft unit in MPR courtesy of Bevepi.
For the benefit of those who got units in Mc Kinley Park...

1-Bedroom units ranges from 38 sq mtrs to 40.95 sq mtrs or 408 sq ft to 462 sq ft

Lower level units size is 20 sq mtrs or 225 sq ft and upper level size is 18 sq mtrs or 175 sq ft.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/bevepi/mprupper1br.jpg


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/bevepi/mprlower1br.jpg
Thanks Bevepi! :)

Great discussion you all have going here. :okay: It's great to hear the many viewpoints on lofts, as I myself have been a loft-fan without really considering it's impracticality or downsides. I guess I base my admiration of lofts on its design.. Oh, and how it gives you the illusion of a bigger, grander living space. (I guess a flat unit with high ceilings would be just as good).

It's difficult to articulate, but there's just something attractive about loft-living, especially for a young, unattached twenty-something like me. :)

wow, thanks for creating this thread. had so many questions regarding lofts, learned tons of stuff here, so thank u so much guyz :okay:

@char: exactly! loft type design is enticing, fit for the young, unattached twenty-something people. it's definitely something i wanna show off with friends when i own one. :D i dunno, maybe it's just me but i find flat/standard condo boring, plain and oldish compared to loft-type. just my opinion ;)

I think you'll need to qualify the survey as the demographics you have in ssc are quite diverse and hence have quite different buying patterns. Just an opinion.

Lofts make a lot of sense in at least the lowest end of the market and the highest end.

On the lowest end the the structural costs of additional height (to say 2 + 2.2 (hlurb minimums) plus slabs of .2 and .1 for a total of 4.5) versus 2.2 height plus slab of .2 for a total of 2.4 are offset by the loft area which can be titled and sold. The additional area is much cheaper to construct and increases the area to a maximum of 60% (the HLURB definition of a loft - anything over counts it as a another floor and hence changes the rules for developing and constructing (this does not affect the client per se but radically alters the cost due to additional requirement of the building code). So the lower absolute cost absoulutely matters to this price sensitive market. This is the area where Phinma, DMCI et al play. The area under the stairs is always put to use as closet , TV, storage, laundry space hence not wasted at all. It's not ideal for markets which are more aspirational but at present there is probably no way to have a lower CFA. Plus one additional benefit is that the homeowner can actually extend the loft and fully convert this to 2 floors, increasing total area by 20%. (not entirely legal though but in this market watch out for this) In the lower floors the additional height adds a lot of light with buidlings which are very close to one another (6 meter minimums) as in CGS the additional window space is useful with a 2oclock shadow.

For the high end, energy considerations will be secondary to having a nice condo. The market for this is ussually much more urbane, sophisticated with aspirations to having the original type of loft living which is a converted 500 sq.m. 30 foot ceilinged, SOHO factory warehouse. These are not the same people who are buying the present lofts in general.

I don't know of anyone who's been selling the open space, you can not title it and hence even condo dues which are based on the title ussually can not be charged to the open space.

Most of the loft type developments are actually supposed to address cost, the original GA was so cheaply sold due to the cost savings, when people like Fred Go and Rally Martinez noticed that you could actually charge a premium to it then you saw it move from the DMCI fort projects (fort as in BCDA side - along C5 - not FBDC) and Empire East to the Fort.

Best to have a good mix if your project will reach a thousand units and it's the fort value market you're after ( IMO) . I'd ask the people answering here to qualify where they are from as well as the people abroad are more conservative since they look at these as investments and hence prefer flats (literally) but the people who actually are to live in condo's ussually appreciate the sense of space and light, even if there may be a penalty in space design flow.