This article talks of a coming 36-storey condo.

Group set to reap $20m profit from Bishopsgate plots

15 Feb 05

BS Capital prepares to launch 60-unit Draycott luxury apartment project

By KALPANA RASHIWALA

BS CAPITAL, the privately held property group set up by former Citiraya director Raymond Ng, is set to reap a pre-tax profit of about $20 million after selling off all its 16 subdivided lots for Good Class Bungalow (GCB) development at Bishopsgate in its maiden venture.

And the developer is getting ready to launch in July or August this year a 60-unit luxury freehold apartment project in the prime Draycott area, BS Capital's CEO Chin Teck Chuan told BT recently. The 36-storey development will come up on the former Falcon Crest collective sale site that the company bagged last year.

While Mr Chin declined to comment on the profit from selling the Bishopsgate plots - the last of them were sold in December and the deals will be completed by April - he did acknowledge the group will make a 'very, very decent profit' from the sale.

Property market watchers pointed out that based on BS Capital's $69.8 million acquisition cost of the sprawling freehold site in 2003, the $20 million pre-tax profit that the group is estimated to have reaped works out to a neat margin of about 30 per cent over a two-year period.

This is nothing to be scoffed at and exceeds what many developers are earning currently from their residential developments.

BS Capital carved out the 16 freehold land parcels from a sprawling site of 276,112 sq ft that it bought from HSBC in October 2003. After providing for roads and an electrical substation, the net sellable area of the 16 parcels adds up to about 244,000 sq ft. The company's breakeven price inclusive of interest expenses is about $320-330 psf of net land area. On average, BS Capital sold the plots for about $405 psf. Each plot has a requisite GCB plot size of at least 15,070 sq ft.

As for the new project coming up on the former Falcon Crest site, Mr Chin is looking at an average $1,500 psf. The project's breakeven cost was previously reported at about $1,000-1,100 psf.

The development will comprise two, three and four-bedroom units. Four of the four-bedder apartments will be duplex units of about 2,000 sq ft each on the 13th and 23rd floors - to avoid supposedly inauspicious addresses on the 14th and 24th floors. The two penthouses of about 2,600 sq ft each will also be duplex units with their private rooftop jacuzzi pools.

The development, which is expected to be completed in about three years, will also have a 50-metre long lap pool, gymnasium and function room.

BS Capital was set up by Mr Ng in his private capacity in late 2003, when he was Citiraya's deputy chairman and chief executive. He left the listed electronics waste recycler in March last year - way before the company came under the recent investigations by the Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau and the Commercial Affairs Department.

Mr Ng, meanwhile, has emerged as a major shareholder of Leong Hin Holdings, which is in the midst of buying two waste recycling businesses - HLS Electronics and precious metals recovery start-up Cimelia Resource Recovery.

Mr Ng controls 90 per cent of BS Capital with the other 10 per cent held by Seow Siew Lan. Ms Seow was also a former executive director at Citiraya and now runs Cimelia.

Here, One gorgeous Condominium Tower coming up near Orchard Road..:)

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc1.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc2.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc3.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc4.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc5.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc6.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc7.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc8.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc9.jpg

http://www.paintlightstudio.com/imagepost/dc10.jpg

Woah !!!
That is one awesome building ^ ^ Although a bit one-sided :-/ But not as bad as Moulmein Rise ;-)
Thanks for the pics ! We need more buildings of this quality for the condo projects ^ ^
I counted 32 or 33 storeys... Anyone could guess the exact location of this baby from the renderings ?

My guess might be Claymore Road area?
What is it? :eek2::cool:

:eek2:

OMG!!!

Thanks Chad!

Is this a real rendering or just a proposal?

From some of the renderings it does look like its in the Claymore area.

maybe its the project proposed for the en'bloced FalconCrest site.

I think it's quite real, I got those from the Renderer which "all" of the company's renderings are real projects.

So, I assumed this one is real aswell.....I knew you would love it Rafflescity, me too ;)

It is a refreshing departure from the standard-looking condos...Love that glass! :happy:

OK, here are some more refreshments..;)

BTW, there is a CG company name and email written, incase u might wanna email them and ask..:)

http://www.smoke3dstudio.com/temp/d001.jpg

http://www.smoke3dstudio.com/temp/d002.jpg

http://www.smoke3dstudio.com/temp/d003.jpg

http://www.smoke3dstudio.com/temp/d004.jpg

http://www.smoke3dstudio.com/temp/d005.jpg

http://www.smoke3dstudio.com/temp/d006.jpg

http://www.smoke3dstudio.com/temp/d007.jpg

Thanks Chad....anyway the Ardmore/Draycott area has some projects u/c...this might be one of them.

The glassy part looks a bit like that building in Miami :cool:

Who's the developer?

Condominium development - 36 floors
Location: Draycott Drive
Developper: BS Draycott (?)
Date of completion: March 2010
Tenure: freehold
Number of units: 58
Facilities: basement carpark, 50m lap pool, ancillary facilities.

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/05/051030_the_arc_at_draycott01.jpg

I think Chad was the one to dig out the render first ;-)
Now we know the name and location (it will stand where Falcon Crest condo used to be).

Status of the project is still not under construction. The land parcel is cleared and the board are up, but no construction equipment is in there yet.

Here is the board:
http://ssc.singapenguin.net/05/051030_the_arc_at_draycott02.jpg

An advertisement board:
http://ssc.singapenguin.net/05/051030_the_arc_at_draycott03.jpg

With 58 units only, same height with BLVD and very prime district (just next to Draycott 8), I think we are looking at a very exclusive and pricey project here ;-)

More info on the sale of Falcon Crest back in 2004 (it's givin some hints on the psf etc.)

(from CB Richard Ellis website)

Falcon Crest Collective Sale Site Up For Tender

22 April 2004 - CB Richard Ellis is pleased to announce the launch of the Public Tender Sale of Falcon Crest, a prime freehold apartment site located opposite Ardmore Park Condominium.

Falcon Crest is an eleven-storey apartment block built in the 1980s. There are 10 apartments of 1,130 sq ft and 10 apartments of 1,474 sq ft.

The official asking price is $43 million. In addition, a Development Charge of approximately $11.25 million is payable. The total land cost therefore equates to approximately $710 psf ppr. Two mid floor units at Ardmore Park were sold in February and March this year at $1,663 psf and $1,629 psf.

The site has a land area of approximately 27,279 sq ft and the allowable plot ratio is 2.8 and the height control is up to 36 storeys (subject to approval).

Nearby landmarks include The Tanglin Club, The American Club, The Shangri-La Hotel, Jasons Supermarket and Orchard Road.

CB Richard Ellis is the sole and exclusive marketing agent.

At the peak of the property market in October 1999 the Reserve Price was $68 million which was equivalent to $1,066 psf ppr.

Based upon the official asking price of $43 million, each owner is entitled to $2.15 million. The last 2 units sold at Falcon Crest were at $1.76 million and $1.35 million in 2002.

The tender closes on 26 May 2004 at 4 pm.

the design rocks!

but so far construction hasnt started yet.

YAY!!!...So it's this one?..:cool:

yup...thanks for sharing those exciting renditions with us back then, I'll move your earlier posts into this thread :)

actually, i think its ghastly :o

like bad dubai

got to admit...its a departure from most other condos though

yes, its somewhat exciting for its ghastliness (imo) :)

adds a bit of spice

Yes it's certainly not the most awesome design but it's quite cool for being different...
At least this one won't be mistaken with a new generation HDB (see Meraprime, Queens, etc).

i think it is yucks... I don't like too much glass on facades. makes it very office like.

Draycott condo prices upped to $1,800 psf

9 Mar 06

The Arc sees strong foreign interest; Yishun houses also launched this week

BS Capital's The Arc at Draycott luxury apartment project and Allgreen Properties' The Shaughnessy cluster housing development in Yishun are being officially launched this weekend, marking the start of ad campaigns, following earlier previews.

BS Capital has sold 39 of the total 58 units at its freehold project, The Arc at Draycott, for about $1,700 per sq ft on average since November/December last year when it first marketed the project in Hong Kong and Jakarta.

It is now raising the average price for the remaining 19 units to about $1,800 psf.

Foreigners are understood to have bought about 60 per cent of the units sold so far in the 36-storey development.

The 4,144 sq ft duplex penthouse was sold for $7.25 million to a Pakistani investor, who also bought another apartment in the development. A Hong Kong family bought five units.

The project has also seen strong interest from British, French, German, New Zealand and Indonesian buyers.

'We have received a very encouraging response from buyers around the globe during our soft preview,' BS Capital's CEO Chin Teck Chuan said in a statement yesterday. CB Richard Ellis and Savills are jointly marketing The Arc.

The remaining 19 apartments in the project are mostly two or three-bedroom units with prices ranging from $1.9 million to $2.5 million.

BS Capital is developing The Arc at Draycott on the former Falcon Crest site which it bought in 2004 for $40 million through a collective sale.

That price worked out to $671 psf of potential gross floor area inclusive of an estimated development charge of $11.25 million. The breakeven cost was reported at about $1,000 to $1,100 psf at the time.

Over in the Yishun area, Allgreen is also raising the average price of The Shaughnessy, a 99-year leasehold strata terrace housing project, from $245 psf during the preview in October last year to $250 psf for this weekend's official launch.

It is releasing another 28 units now after selling all 50 units which it had earlier released during the preview.

The project comprises a total of 254 units of three-storey strata terrace houses which come with a roof garden plus a basement.

The strata areas of the units range from 3,250 sq ft to 4,300 sq ft, says marketing agent DTZ Debenham Tie Leung. Prices range from $790,000 to $890,000 per unit. The developer is offering buyers a deferred payment scheme.

BS Capital is also expected to release later this year a 43-storey development in the Shenton Way area called The Lumiere.

The CBD apartments will offer a 'home-office living concept'. BS Capital will develop the project on the site currently occupied by the HMC Building at Mistri Road.

By KALPANA RASHIWALA

Another Rendering :)

http://www.cgarchitect.com/user_artwork/draycott-ver1-daycopy.jpg

what a sheer beauty .......... :drool: !

but why it took so long till 2010??

hmm...the structure should be ready in 2008 though :)

and what will happen to the building two years after 2008?

Looks so futuristic! :cool:

Has work begun yet?

22nd May

http://membres.lycos.fr/pengssc/img/060522_arc_at_draycott01.jpg
Soil testing and pilling works under way.
Nothing much to see and it's hard to get a good point of view on the site !

5th November

It's rising !
http://ssc.singapenguin.net/06/061105_arc_at_draycott01.jpg
Piles showing up

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/06/061105_arc_at_draycott02.jpg
Partial floor plan of 34th floor.

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/06/061105_arc_at_draycott03.jpg
Partial floor plan of 36th (and last) floor.

Quite surprised that they let this kind of stuff show outside ^ ^

cool...cant wait for it to make an impact on the skyline

Wow. the building is very Miami-ish, haha. Like this
http://www.kpf.com/images/Projects/espiritosanto/n1228_3002z.jpg:D

btw, those plans are sooo... omg, they remind me of my projects!

omg wow, the first rendering looks so slim while this one looks, FAT!

this is one of my fav projects in all of ardmore/draycott area....if ppl are willing to pay $2300-2800 for the BORING ardmore II just down the street, think this one must be seriously undervalued if u can still get a unit for $2000-2100. i didn't see the showflat for the arc, but i did go to the one for ardmore II and just can't understand what is so much better??

have always been interested in this project so had told some agents to keep an eye out for me. had a call this morning for a mid floor 3-BR unit in the $2300 psf range....mentioned that draycott 8 is asking $7.00psf/month for rents now so this project should be in similar range by 2008.

i think i should have tried a little harder 3-4 weeks ago...now trying to decide if orchard turn at $2500+ will further help draycott prices...

24 March 2007

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/RCSSC/arc2403.jpg

Nice update, seems like its still a long long way to go, 2010..

3 years is a long way for such a small condo.

Good!! it starts to emerge now!

3 years is a long way for such a small condo.

should be middle '08 if i'm not wrong?

Arthur, I notice u are listing an Arc unit at "below developer price" in the straits times this morning.....I thought project is sold out, and I doubt that current owner would sell at the old launch price of $1600-1800 psf, so what price u mean? I see that other units listing in the range of $2300-2800 psf now, so looks like this bldg is really starting to move...

11th November 2007

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/07/071111_the_arc_at_draycott01.jpg

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/07/071111_the_arc_at_draycott02.jpg

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/07/071111_the_arc_at_draycott03.jpg
Topped.

SO FAST!!!!

11th November 2007

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/07/071111_the_arc_at_draycott01.jpg

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/07/071111_the_arc_at_draycott02.jpg

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/07/071111_the_arc_at_draycott03.jpg
Topped.

It looks quite tall for a 36-storey building. Progress is fast. Looks nice!

Nice updates by the way.

looks like TOP could be much before end next year. looks like owners got rental bonanza if buy at original price (i heard from agent that ardmore park now getting close to $7.00 psf/month so this one should be same same).

looks like TOP could be much before end next year. looks like owners got rental bonanza if buy at original price (i heard from agent that ardmore park now getting close to $7.00 psf/month so this one should be same same).

Nice. I think Arc would TOP end next year.

On a side note, Arc can be seen rising prominently from Mount Elizabeth Hospital!

Nice. I think Arc would TOP end next year.

On a side note, Arc can be seen rising prominently from Mount Elizabeth Hospital!

confirm looking at June/July for TOP

confirm looking at June/July for TOP

That fast? :eek:

There are 3 new projects over at Draycott area namely Ardmore II, Tate Residence and Arc, what are the strengths and weaknesses of each of them?

There are 3 new projects over at Draycott area namely Ardmore II, Tate Residence and Arc, what are the strengths and weaknesses of each of them?

Ardmore 11
Strength: Wheelock Properties, Ardmore Address, Good Size 4 Bedroom
Weakness: There is a building in between the 2 towers, Typical Wheelock Building: White and Simple Design

Tate Residences
Strength: Claymore Address, Good Size Unit. Full Condo Facilities, 85 unit total into 2 tower. 4 bedroom is 1 unit 1 level.
Weakness: too close to Orchard Tower

Arc
Strenght: Unique Building Design
Weakness: Small Size Unit.

So the best would still be Tate Residences. I think Ardmore II design is average, but not nice enough. In terms of Design perhaps Arc would fare the best. Maybe you would want to group them like this:

Design: The Arc :okay: Tate Residences :okay: Ardmore II :down:

Size of unit: Tate Residences :okay: Ardmore II :okay: The Arc :down:

So in terms of all these rankings I think Tate Residences would be prefect if not for it's close distance to Orchard Towers.

Ardmore 11
Strength: Wheelock Properties, Ardmore Address, Good Size 4 Bedroom
Weakness: There is a building in between the 2 towers, Typical Wheelock Building: White and Simple Design

Tate Residences
Strength: Claymore Address, Good Size Unit. Full Condo Facilities, 85 unit total into 2 tower. 4 bedroom is 1 unit 1 level.
Weakness: too close to Orchard Tower

Arc
Strenght: Unique Building Design
Weakness: Small Size Unit.

noticed not many 2BR units exist in this area....1,132 sq.ft. for Arc 2BR unit is not really that small....it is mainly the 3BR units that are a bit undersized.

noticed not many 2BR units exist in this area....1,132 sq.ft. for Arc 2BR unit is not really that small....it is mainly the 3BR units that are a bit undersized.
2 bedroom is 1130sqft and is from 5th to 12th floor only
3bdrm, 1,270 sq ft, 15~31 floor
3 + study, 1,432 sq ft, 32~34 floor
4 bdrm, 2,228 sq ft, 13 & 14 floor, 23 & 24 floor
4 berm with pool, 4,144 sq ft, 35~37 floor

38 Draycott has 2 bedroom

2 bedroom is 1130sqft and is from 5th to 12th floor only
3bdrm, 1,270 sq ft, 15~31 floor
3 + study, 1,432 sq ft, 32~34 floor
4 bdrm, 2,228 sq ft, 13 & 14 floor, 23 & 24 floor
4 berm with pool, 4,144 sq ft, 35~37 floor

38 Draycott has 2 bedroom

if this one is selling for $2.8-3.0k psf now, does our esteemed agent colleague arthur think there could be a good spike in value come TOP?

or, put another way, is this building really that inferior to those cairnhill locations that have hit $3.5-4.0k psf?

seems like this one will be a good test of the market resiliency at the high end, as it will probably TOP faster than almost anything at the luxury end, except maybe St. Regis...

if this one is selling for $2.8-3.0k psf now, does our esteemed agent colleague arthur think there could be a good spike in value come TOP?

or, put another way, is this building really that inferior to those cairnhill locations that have hit $3.5-4.0k psf?

seems like this one will be a good test of the market resiliency at the high end, as it will probably TOP faster than almost anything at the luxury end, except maybe St. Regis...there is a good chance that Arc will enjoy the TOP spike like any other TOP projects. No this building is not inferior that those in Cairhill area. As mention, the unit size is bit on the small size.

The next 3 highend TOP projects are likely to be Beaufort at Nassim, The Grange followed by St Regis.

p.s: i just happen to like SkyScraperCity with the forumers giving good contribution and discussion. And I am gladly to do my part to contribute.

there is a good chance that Arc will enjoy the TOP spike like any other TOP projects. No this building is not inferior that those in Cairhill area. As mention, the unit size is bit on the small size.

The next 3 highend TOP projects are likely to be Beaufort at Nassim, The Grange followed by St Regis.

p.s: i just happen to like SkyScraperCity with the forumers giving good contribution and discussion. And I am gladly to do my part to contribute.

definitely value your contributions, thanks!! i also agree that this forum is quite unique and informative....has peaked my interest since i found it and is almost daily reading now!

incidentally, i took a look at asking prices and it seems the Arc has quite a wide range....some can be had for around $2.8k while some already asking $3.5k. if i had the money, i would probably try and pick up one of the lower price units as i personally am quite old school in my thinking that ardmore will always be a classier address than cairnhill (though please don't flame me for thinking this) :lol:

definitely value your contributions, thanks!! i also agree that this forum is quite unique and informative....has peaked my interest since i found it and is almost daily reading now!

incidentally, i took a look at asking prices and it seems the Arc has quite a wide range....some can be had for around $2.8k while some already asking $3.5k. if i had the money, i would probably try and pick up one of the lower price units as i personally am quite old school in my thinking that ardmore will always be a classier address than cairnhill (though please don't flame me for thinking this) :lol:
under 16th floor, the view might be blocked by 38 Draycott.

property in orchard drop 10% in DEC...
based on
http://www.propertyvalue.com.sg/controller.php?ageid=pv_analysis&region=B

wondering how acurrate is this site...

property in orchard drop 10% in DEC...
based on
http://www.propertyvalue.com.sg/controller.php?ageid=pv_analysis&region=B

wondering how acurrate is this site...

Why are you going around the different threads posting this same message?
There are a total of 7 such postings from you in this forum sofar.

property in orchard drop 10% in DEC...
based on
http://www.propertyvalue.com.sg/controller.php?ageid=pv_analysis&region=B

wondering how acurrate is this site...

Interesting website. I used it to do a quick valuation for some properties I have been tracking. Qute amazed at the results that were returned. Some valuations were way above what the market can accept, some were spot on however nothing I got suggested a drop in 10% in Dec. All those I have searched on were properties around Orchard.

Interesting website. I used it to do a quick valuation for some properties I have been tracking. Qute amazed at the results that were returned. Some valuations were way above what the market can accept, some were spot on however nothing I got suggested a drop in 10% in Dec. All those I have searched on were properties around Orchard.

Apologies for the confusion the latest market data at propertyvalue.com.sg has caused. It is based on statistical model that uses data from URA.

We're still working on improving the valuation model and sometimes outliers can affect the results too much. I've removed the main culprit from the data and run the model again. You can see the new data online now.

Also, some of the URA transactions for December seem to come from investors buying in bulk (which probably mean discounts for them).

Please do send us feedback anytime you feel there are inconsistencies in the data.

Regards,

Jani at PropertyGuru.com.sg
visit www.propertyguru.com.sg - search 1000's of Singapore properties online

Huh... Seems I'm the only one to post "on topic" on this thread, so I guess what's next is going to be considered out of topic :-p Anyway...

27th January 2008

http://ssc.singapenguin.net/08/080127_the_arc_at_draycott01.jpg

thanks pengui! i always go by this site and wanted to post this but my mobile phone pic quality never turns out so well...

really does look like TOP could be middle of the year....will be very interesting to see how the final product turns out as the developer renderings always show the curved glass facade on the other side (but never the rear view).

It doesn't show on this pic but cladding has started and is about halfway up.
Mid-year top seems to be a bit optimistic to me, though. 4th quarter is more realistic.

the building looks malnourished :D

It doesn't show on this pic but cladding has started and is about halfway up.
Mid-year top seems to be a bit optimistic to me, though. 4th quarter is more realistic.

got a 2BR unit for sale here....PM me if interested to buy; TOP will be Q3 (prob end).

happy happy, got news today that TOP will be end July or early August...starting to think about renting and heard of draycott 8 2 BR units getting $10.5k per month and selling for $2.6-2.7k psf....any forumers got any advice whether if I can fetch comparable rental for my unit here :)

got a 2BR unit for sale here....PM me if interested to buy; TOP will be Q3 (prob end).

is this project FH or 99 years? and what stack is your unit? thanks

FH - mine is 02 stack

is this project top yet?

is this project top yet?TOPed:lol:

TOPed:lol:

thanks Art, how's the finish? what about St regis?

TOPed:lol:

are you sure? only 56 units and my lawyer heard nothing so far...
can't wait though! want to rent before more doom and gloom in rental market :lol::lol:

are you sure? only 56 units and my lawyer heard nothing so far...
can't wait though! want to rent before more doom and gloom in rental market :lol::lol:i asked the guard when I was around there last week.

owners attended the TOP party last nite.

pictures anyone?

party was for agents not owners haha....my agent went n said project is fabulous. like BLVD but smaller units. 3 BR rentals should be in the range of $15-16k. hopefully getting keys soon! got TOP notice already. thinking of not selling until after leases get signed....if got this rent, then prices close to $4.5 million still give 4% yield...of course i got vested interest in saying, but shows this project is undervalue!

any body got keys yet? me no...:ohno:

any body got keys yet? me no...:ohno:developer is preparing it now. hehe... i am also eager to see the interior....

developer is preparing it now. hehe... i am also eager to see the interior....

better share some pics Art! thanks

guys, what's the price range for this project right now? any ideas?

during the peak, few units sold at $2900-3000 psf but i have a 2br unit and would sell today at $2.8million (under $2500psf). i know a few owners would also sell slightly less but mainly the 3BR units (which are higher floor but a bit cramped so consider them like 2+study).

also trying to buy any unit i can find if cheaper as this is a good price compare to the other projects u can get very nice 2 BR in superprime district (Beaufort, Cairnhill Crest, Helios, etc.).

got to see inside for the first time the other day (sorry no pics allowed) and this is head and shoulders better than neighbour buildings (7 Draycott, 38 Draycott, etc.). should be getting my keys in next 2 weeks.

i got two of the high end expat leasing brokers and both claim they can obtain the same rents as draycott 8 ($9-10k+ for 2BR and $12k+ for 3BR) but may have to wait a month or two before a few cheaper units get rented, as i know some owners more afraid of long term so want to rent out fast fast. :bash: anyway, if i can get this rent it is more than 6% yield on my purchase price so will probably keep it...dont think will be able to find 5-6% yields in ardmore draycott again anytime in next 5 years although i still trying to find...haha

Wow, 6% is very good deal, still can get this kind of rent now? bcos like St Regis, most unit ard $6m, and the rent should be ard $20k per month, which just ard 4% of the unit price annually.


during the peak, few units sold at $2900-3000 psf but i have a 2br unit and would sell today at $2.8million (under $2500psf). i know a few owners would also sell slightly less but mainly the 3BR units (which are higher floor but a bit cramped so consider them like 2+study).

also trying to buy any unit i can find if cheaper as this is a good price compare to the other projects u can get very nice 2 BR in superprime district (Beaufort, Cairnhill Crest, Helios, etc.).

got to see inside for the first time the other day (sorry no pics allowed) and this is head and shoulders better than neighbour buildings (7 Draycott, 38 Draycott, etc.). should be getting my keys in next 2 weeks.

i got two of the high end expat leasing brokers and both claim they can obtain the same rents as draycott 8 ($9-10k+ for 2BR and $12k+ for 3BR) but may have to wait a month or two before a few cheaper units get rented, as i know some owners more afraid of long term so want to rent out fast fast. :bash: anyway, if i can get this rent it is more than 6% yield on my purchase price so will probably keep it...dont think will be able to find 5-6% yields in ardmore draycott again anytime in next 5 years although i still trying to find...haha

still can get this kind of rent now?

should be quite easy if patient...i think a few massive projects are having problems with rent levels cos there is a lot of competition (Sail, Seaview, etc)....but Arc is very boutique, some more superprime 2 BR units very rare in Ardmore area...not really competing against any other project...

If SC Global got $2100 psf for Martin 38 at Mhmd Sultan, should be very interesting to see what they launch their Ardmore project at....

Their land price for Ardmore is $2200 psf....so breakeven for super luxury project must be $3000 PSF!!! Wonder how long got to wait to launch this...

it should wait very long time i think. it's not going to be any time soon like last year anymore, at least not in next 3 to 5 years. and i don't think they will do well at the Martin 38 for that kind of price either, although i love the concept very much.

haha my agent just call me....said their friend gave an earful to a propnex agent cos their team keeps advertising arc units in ST at $2100 psf when they admit got no such unit (all other units are $2500-2600 psf).

haha my agent just call me....said their friend gave an earful to a propnex agent cos their team keeps advertising arc units in ST at $2100 psf when they admit got no such unit (all other units are $2500-2600 psf).

There is really a unit for sale at this price. You have to be fast. High floor as well. If you are keen u can call me at 96943152.... :banana:

any rentals concluded yet?

any rentals concluded yet?

Rental done at 8.5k 3rm 1270sqft high floor.. owner adjusted price

Rental done at 8.5k 3rm 1270sqft high floor.. owner adjusted price

seems low. owner desparate to cover? i heard barclays is bringing 1,200 new staff to singapore next 60 days. unilever filling another 400 slots. sales market flat so a lot of agents i talked to just doing rentals.

seems low. owner desparate to cover? i heard barclays is bringing 1,200 new staff to singapore next 60 days. unilever filling another 400 slots. sales market flat so a lot of agents i talked to just doing rentals.

There was some concern abt oversupply with cosmopolitan and paterson residences coming on board. I guess owner done his sums felt that it was still quite okie. Yield at 2.55million is ard 4%.

There was some concern abt oversupply with cosmopolitan and paterson residences coming on board. I guess owner done his sums felt that it was still quite okie. Yield at 2.55million is ard 4%.

if they really bought at 2.55 million then they got nothing to worry about long term...is below SC Global land cost for next door plot. sit, sit, and wait...

of course, if they got no holding power, its different story...die die must take first offer...to steal another esteemed forumer`s line, must satisy the greedy shylock banks first, then think rational second :lol:

if they really bought at 2.55 million then they got nothing to worry about long term...is below SC Global land cost for next door plot. sit, sit, and wait...

of course, if they got no holding power, its different story...die die must take first offer...to steal another esteemed forumer`s line, must satisy the greedy shylock banks first, then think rational second :lol:

They bought for less than 2.55million thats why their yield quite decent. True the unit is cheaper than the land cost by SC global next door. With 4 new developement yet to be launch ard that area, it will be interesting to see hw it pans out. Rent it for 2yrs ur downside is taken care of.. to quote someone" once ur dwnside is taken care of, the upside will take care of itself" :)

They bought for less than 2.55million thats why their yield quite decent. True the unit is cheaper than the land cost by SC global next door. With 4 new developement yet to be launch ard that area, it will be interesting to see hw it pans out. Rent it for 2yrs ur downside is taken care of.. to quote someone" once ur dwnside is taken care of, the upside will take care of itself" :)

can rationalize ok cos bought quite low. still, can tell its a fear-driven play.

the warren buffets of the world look at the long term value...the last thing they do is sell distressed into a falling market. when the money comes back into singapore (and it will, its just a question of time), selling a brand new freehold on Draycott at breakeven 2006 prices is not going to look great in the rearview mirror...

can rationalize ok cos bought quite low. still, can tell its a fear-driven play.

the warren buffets of the world look at the long term value...the last thing they do is sell distressed into a falling market. when the money comes back into singapore (and it will, its just a question of time), selling a brand new freehold on Draycott at breakeven 2006 prices is not going to look great in the rearview mirror...

Hey Overlorden, why dun u consider buying this unit that is rented out?! There is another one available on a higher floor. It is not blocked by 38 draycott and asking $2100psf. As Warren Buffet say "be greedy when others are fearful" :)

Hey Overlorden, why dun u consider buying this unit that is rented out?! There is another one available on a higher floor. It is not blocked by 38 draycott and asking $2100psf. As Warren Buffet say "be greedy when others are fearful" :)

these ones not fearful enough yet and i am much greedier than that. see how when i am back to singapore next month...waiting to convert some USD at better rates by then... :lol:

seriously though, if they really no holding power ones, why not set up a company to leaseback the unit at $12-13k/month. include broad sublet rights. then sublet for $10-11k/month. $13,000 per month rent at 5% yield gives a $3.1+ million price. easy for new buyer to match bank value with lease in place. lot of investors would be very happy with 5% these days. the higher sale price will more than compensate for the small loss on sublet over 2 yrs. win-win.

sometimes the problem is people dont think through their problems...just cut price think can solve. instead create more fear and feed problems more. sell at market price with good lease, people think not desperate, negotiate better price. sell at fire sale, buyer like me smells desparation, want more fire sale...
:bash:

these ones not fearful enough yet and i am much greedier than that. see how when i am back to singapore next month...waiting to convert some USD at better rates by then... :lol:

seriously though, if they really no holding power ones, why not set up a company to leaseback the unit at $12-13k/month. include broad sublet rights. then sublet for $10-11k/month. $13,000 per month rent at 5% yield gives a $3.1+ million price. easy for new buyer to match bank value with lease in place. lot of investors would be very happy with 5% these days. the higher sale price will more than compensate for the small loss on sublet over 2 yrs. win-win.

sometimes the problem is people dont think through their problems...just cut price think can solve. instead create more fear and feed problems more. sell at market price with good lease, people think not desperate, negotiate better price. sell at fire sale, buyer like me smells desparation, want more fire sale...
:bash:

Thats a great move u are doing. The thing is not everyone is as astute as you. Anyway now the unit is rented out, they are not so keen to sell anymore which is always the case

buffett said "Leverage is the only way a smart guy can go broke."

seriously though, if they really no holding power ones, why not set up a company to leaseback the unit at $12-13k/month. include broad sublet rights. then sublet for $10-11k/month. $13,000 per month rent at 5% yield gives a $3.1+ million price. easy for new buyer to match bank value with lease in place. lot of investors would be very happy with 5% these days. the higher sale price will more than compensate for the small loss on sublet over 2 yrs. win-win.



that is financial engineering...hhhaahaa...almost a con job...maybe that why better check mkt rental than existing rental on condos.

these ones not fearful enough yet and i am much greedier than that. see how when i am back to singapore next month...waiting to convert some USD at better rates by then... :lol:

seriously though, if they really no holding power ones, why not set up a company to leaseback the unit at $12-13k/month. include broad sublet rights. then sublet for $10-11k/month. $13,000 per month rent at 5% yield gives a $3.1+ million price. easy for new buyer to match bank value with lease in place. lot of investors would be very happy with 5% these days. the higher sale price will more than compensate for the small loss on sublet over 2 yrs. win-win.

sometimes the problem is people dont think through their problems...just cut price think can solve. instead create more fear and feed problems more. sell at market price with good lease, people think not desperate, negotiate better price. sell at fire sale, buyer like me smells desparation, want more fire sale...
:bash:

Very sorry to trouble you overlorden but can you elaborate the incorporating a company, leaseback and sublet part? Thanks in advance!

Very sorry to trouble you overlorden but can you elaborate the incorporating a company, leaseback and sublet part? Thanks in advance!

no problem at all...just a variation of offering a guaranteed yield to new investor...happens all the time in commercial transactions....two ways to do it:

1. seller will leaseback unit for 2 yrs from new buyer at X rental. can be done as individual or by setting up a company that will sign the lease (this latter way costs about $2-3k to set up). seller will then sublease the unit to a new tenant. if market rental for this sublease is less than X, then seller will need to top up a little bit each month (use proceeds of sale to cover). can give new buyer right to approve subtenant if necessary but usually not required.

2. alternatively, can just offer new buyer a guaranteed rental of X and let buyer find the tenant. again, if rental is less than X, then can top up each month or just pay a lump sum to cover the difference for 2 yrs.

either way, will assure new buyer of a guaranteed rental yield. after all, that`s what most people care about....as everyone knows prices will eventually recover...

in the case of the arc, market price was $2,800-3,000 psf last year. has now dropped to about $2400 psf. one owner is desparate to sell, so they rushed to get a lease at $8500 psf when market price is probably $11-12k for their unit (so they can offer 4% yield and $2000 PSF price - $2.55 million). everyone can see very desperate.

my point was, if they didnt want to wait, they should have offered a guaranteed rental of $13k per month and waited to find a tenant at market rents of $11-12k per month). at most, would have cost 2 months vacancy plus $2k per month shortfall rental. total $40-50,000 over 2 yrs. but then they could have offered the unit for sale at guaranteed 5% yields ($3.12 million or $2,456 PSF). as you can see, the difference in sale price $570,000 far exceeds the cost...

not only that, but main point is, if a buyer sees a price at $2,000 psf and a rent that is 20-25% below market, they much more likely to negotiate even harder cos they know it's fire sale...

on the other hand, if they see above-market rent is guaranteed, yet price is at fair market value, they know cannot negotiate as much...plus, owner has advantage over other units selling vacant at same price...

so u have turned a situation where u have disadvantage over other sellers to your advantage...

^^ hope the buyer can see that rentals is subjected to mkt rentals after guarantee.

just fishing for freshmeat with these tactics.

this is how they sell Oz n KL properties..by offering rental guarantees.

Very sorry to trouble you overlorden but can you elaborate the incorporating a company, leaseback and sublet part? Thanks in advance!

Overlorden if u don't mind share with us more on this. Any other forummers do what overlorden teach/did? By the way what price are u looking at to come into Arc again

^^ hope the buyer can see that rentals is subjected to mkt rentals after guarantee.

just fishing for freshmeat with these tactics.

this is how they sell Oz n KL properties..by offering rental guarantees.

also how they sell office properties to REITs...

Overlorden if u don't mind share with us more on this. Any other forummers do what overlorden teach/did? By the way what price are u looking at to come into Arc again

actually havent needed to do it myself...just something a mentor taught me long ago...never show weakness...

anyway, not buying anything else til SGD lower

anyone has some pics about this project? pics inside,. thanks

no problem at all...just a variation of offering a guaranteed yield to new investor...happens all the time in commercial transactions....two ways to do it:

1. seller will leaseback unit for 2 yrs from new buyer at X rental. can be done as individual or by setting up a company that will sign the lease (this latter way costs about $2-3k to set up). seller will then sublease the unit to a new tenant. if market rental for this sublease is less than X, then seller will need to top up a little bit each month (use proceeds of sale to cover). can give new buyer right to approve subtenant if necessary but usually not required.

2. alternatively, can just offer new buyer a guaranteed rental of X and let buyer find the tenant. again, if rental is less than X, then can top up each month or just pay a lump sum to cover the difference for 2 yrs.

either way, will assure new buyer of a guaranteed rental yield. after all, that`s what most people care about....as everyone knows prices will eventually recover...

in the case of the arc, market price was $2,800-3,000 psf last year. has now dropped to about $2400 psf. one owner is desparate to sell, so they rushed to get a lease at $8500 psf when market price is probably $11-12k for their unit (so they can offer 4% yield and $2000 PSF price - $2.55 million). everyone can see very desperate.

my point was, if they didnt want to wait, they should have offered a guaranteed rental of $13k per month and waited to find a tenant at market rents of $11-12k per month). at most, would have cost 2 months vacancy plus $2k per month shortfall rental. total $40-50,000 over 2 yrs. but then they could have offered the unit for sale at guaranteed 5% yields ($3.12 million or $2,456 PSF). as you can see, the difference in sale price $570,000 far exceeds the cost...

not only that, but main point is, if a buyer sees a price at $2,000 psf and a rent that is 20-25% below market, they much more likely to negotiate even harder cos they know it's fire sale...

on the other hand, if they see above-market rent is guaranteed, yet price is at fair market value, they know cannot negotiate as much...plus, owner has advantage over other units selling vacant at same price...

so u have turned a situation where u have disadvantage over other sellers to your advantage...

Thanks for obliging overlorden!! Very simple yet smart way to achieve higher selling price...

Two points... firstly, like birdie said, buyer must look beyond the guaranteed 2 years rental...

Secondly, using the company as a vehicle to facilitate it is non-productive and complicates matters...

That's what Far East Organization is doing to sell many of its developments, like in Icon... 5% rental guarantee...

Thanks for obliging overlorden!! Very simple yet smart way to achieve higher selling price...

Two points... firstly, like birdie said, buyer must look beyond the guaranteed 2 years rental...

Secondly, using the company as a vehicle to facilitate it is non-productive and complicates matters...

That's what Far East Organization is doing to sell many of its developments, like in Icon... 5% rental guarantee...

There are some developers offering guaranteed rentals for 2 years upon TOP. But it makes sense for this practice because rental is normally tied for 2 years. After that, there are many more options available - refinance, sell, move in to stay, etc.

anyone has some pics about this project? pics inside,. thanks

I be there tomorrow afternoon if u want to u can drop by n see :)

nice place....

heard 2 BR rented for $7.5k. anyone can confirm?

heard 2 BR rented for $7.5k. anyone can confirm?

if it's low floor, then quite fair price, the high floors all ask for above 10k.

2 bedrm no high floor right.. think to 13th floor or something only... anyone can confirm..

2 bedrm no high floor right.. think to 13th floor or something only... anyone can confirm..

only to 12F. only 16 units are 2 BR. think $7.5k was an -01 unit and -02 units trying for $8-8.5k

only to 12F. only 16 units are 2 BR. think $7.5k was an -01 unit and -02 units trying for $8-8.5k

I have one 3 bedroom above #25 going for $1900 psf only. Call me to discuss if you are interested!

I have one 3 bedroom above #25 going for $1900 psf only. Call me to discuss if you are interested!

i also heard 25F going for that price but got 1 cheque presented and another buyer trying to grab before owner accepts cheque. will probably be close to $2k to close. have seen that unit before and the view to bukit timah is amazing. thought agent was a woman though.

btw, similar high floor unit rented for $11k last 1-2 weeks. whoever manage to buy at $2k is getting 5+% yield and a really phenomenal unit.

whoever owns the arc and is selling at these prices....needs to give their head a shake...rental yield is high and guarantee always got demand for ardmore area no matter what...people do highly irrational things when they panic...who cares what the price is today if you can rent for $11k??? just wait for SC Ardmore site to launch...might take 2-3 yrs, but breakeven this plot still $3k psf...:ohno:

PLEASEEEE!!! DONT PANIC!!!!

:)

i also heard 25F going for that price but got 1 cheque presented and another buyer trying to grab before owner accepts cheque. will probably be close to $2k to close. have seen that unit before and the view to bukit timah is amazing. thought agent was a woman though.

btw, similar high floor unit rented for $11k last 1-2 weeks. whoever manage to buy at $2k is getting 5+% yield and a really phenomenal unit.

whoever owns the arc and is selling at these prices....needs to give their head a shake...rental yield is high and guarantee always got demand for ardmore area no matter what...people do highly irrational things when they panic...who cares what the price is today if you can rent for $11k??? just wait for SC Ardmore site to launch...might take 2-3 yrs, but breakeven this plot still $3k psf...:ohno:

Your price forecast is correct prior to june 2008! Now, with all the economic parameter changes e.g. GDP growth fcast, inflation fcast, etc etc, the land valuation will follow suit.
I expect the property price will continue to decline until late 2010, before able to regain its momentum again.

Your price forecast is correct prior to june 2008! Now, with all the economic parameter changes e.g. GDP growth fcast, inflation fcast, etc etc, the land valuation will follow suit.
I expect the property price will continue to decline until late 2010, before able to regain its momentum again.

agree rest of market still needs to adjust more but dont think u will see much more downside in Arc. price already dropped from $3k to $2k and project too small (50+ units) so think almost all the `no holding power`owners already flushed out.

dont think u will see more than 1-2 sales in this project in the next year or 2 unless price holds above $2k....after all, easy to rent out brand new luxury bldg at ardmore, just a question of what rental....if true, then no caveat means no more price drop this project.

by next year, will get a lot of expats moving back to orchard area, will leave a lot of suburban condos vacant...happened before too...

Then 2nd tier expats will move to suburban. HDB rental will follow suit.

agree rest of market still needs to adjust more but dont think u will see much more downside in Arc. price already dropped from $3k to $2k and project too small (50+ units) so think almost all the `no holding power`owners already flushed out.

dont think u will see more than 1-2 sales in this project in the next year or 2 unless price holds above $2k....after all, easy to rent out brand new luxury bldg at ardmore, just a question of what rental....if true, then no caveat means no more price drop this project.

by next year, will get a lot of expats moving back to orchard area, will leave a lot of suburban condos vacant...happened before too...

you only see the bright side bro. the current problem is worse than everybody thought, and it's going be worse. even if most of owners can hold on their units, after 2 years, this project is not new anymore, and more new projects will come up.

Then 2nd tier expats will move to suburban. HDB rental will follow suit.

Ya. some FTs will lose their jobs and leave SG. the pie will shrink.

But life goes on. The dynamism will ensure equilibrium reached when Singaporeans working overseas return to look for jobs back home... these people will need to look for place to stay...

But life goes on. The dynamism will ensure equilibrium reached when Singaporeans working overseas return to look for jobs back home... these people will need to look for place to stay...

Too generalizing. For these singaporeans to want to come back, they must first be convinced the job market here is rosy. But its clearly not the case. While its true once they lose their job overseas, they lose their work permits. But i'm not so sure they will be able to replace the expats who leave singapore in terms of tenants. First, they might not have found a job even if they are back home, secondly, I'm sure overall the returnees will not command the same high salary + housing allowances to allow them to replace the expats and thirdly, some of these will just stay with parents, brothers or relatives, especially if they havnt found a job.....or will you offer free lodging to them until they find a job?

you only see the bright side bro. the current problem is worse than everybody thought, and it's going be worse. even if most of owners can hold on their units, after 2 years, this project is not new anymore, and more new projects will come up.

well i dont know if i call it the bright side, but just my personal feeling...i am currently renting out at 5% yield on my purchase price and my mortgage rate is 2.2%....if price is 30-40% lower in 2 yrs, i will buy at least 1 more unit....dollar cost averaging makes my long term yields even better...

personally, i have no doubt that land value in ardmore draycott will eventually recover...and i am only 37 years old, so i quite happy to wait...

most other owners i talk to feel same way....if current situation worsen, makes people even less likely to sell. maybe it's different in other projects where got 150-250 units.....more speculators, etc....but i feel Arc is very boutique and vast majority of remaining owners just want to cover installments with rental and just wait...

True, what I mean is that there are many situations that will play out differently. Just an example-I have a couple friend who is used to rent out their HDB to 2nd tier expats because they have been working overseas. They have not raised the rental price for the existing tenant since 3 years ago. Now they will be coming back, they have willingly stayed with the parents but raised the rental by 30% with the condition for them to move out in 6 months time; and the tenants are willing to do it. Unless these tenants are also going home, otherwise they will be looking for another place to stay.

well i dont know if i call it the bright side, but just my personal feeling...i am currently renting out at 5% yield on my purchase price and my mortgage rate is 2.2%....if price is 30-40% lower in 2 yrs, i will buy at least 1 more unit....dollar cost averaging makes my long term yields even better...

personally, i have no doubt that land value in ardmore draycott will eventually recover...and i am only 37 years old, so i quite happy to wait...

most other owners i talk to feel same way....if current situation worsen, makes people even less likely to sell. maybe it's different in other projects where got 150-250 units.....more speculators, etc....but i feel Arc is very boutique and vast majority of remaining owners just want to cover installments with rental and just wait...

I fully understand your point of view and totally respect your judgment. but here are some of my points about this recession.

1st, SG's real estate is very much relate on foreign money, especially on those $2000psf projects. we can see experience from 97 recession, but 97 recession was only happened in Asia. after the recession, foreign money came in SG in very short time to take the advantage of the low price. although this time the recession of real estate in SG may not be as deep as 97, globe impact will certainly extend the recover period much longer than 97 (obviously U.S, Europe even middle east are much worse than SG this time) . which mean, although we are looking the recover time in late 2010 now, if no foreign money coming in, the date may will be even later.

2nd, Arc obviously is a very good project, but if the price of other projects are going down in Orchard area, it's very hard to say Arc still can hand on it's price at the level your guys hopeful, even if it's only 50+ units. e.g, what if the price of St Regis and BLVD will be around 2000 or even lower, do you still think people will choose Arc over them?

the last but not the least, when the market hits the bottom, I don't think the real estate market should be the 1st choice to invest in. you know what i mean? seems the stock market or other money market will give much higher and faster returns than real estate market.

So these are just my personal opinions, and good luck of cos!

I fully understand your point of view and totally respect your judgment. but here are some of my points about this recession.

no worries - actually i like this forum for the exact reason that ppl will disagree and present educated comments n opinions....if everyone just blanket agree then is quite boring! anyway, dont think anyone really know what will happen for sure, so hearing different opinions is good to help be prepared for whateever happens

1st, SG's real estate is very much relate on foreign money, especially on those $2000psf projects. we can see experience from 97 recession, but 97 recession was only happened in Asia. after the recession, foreign money came in SG in very short time to take the advantage of the low price. although this time the recession of real estate in SG may not be as deep as 97, globe impact will certainly extend the recover period much longer than 97 (obviously U.S, Europe even middle east are much worse than SG this time) . which mean, although we are looking the recover time in late 2010 now, if no foreign money coming in, the date may will be even later.

u might be right. here are some factors to watch for IMO:

- if SGD continue to drop, eventually price looks cheap to foreign money. interest rates also at historical lows, so even if rents drop 20-30% u will still more than cover ur interest installments (provided u hv the right prime location and not the ones which will be vacant)

- even now, many Indos keep watch on rupiah and will park more in singapore if indo moves to collapse.

- in 97 recession, all expats must go home because life better in own country. this time, their home countries even more in shit and many ppl believe asia can recover faster. so, talent base try to stay here as much as possible. will make recovery faster when it happens cos dont have to attract all new talent

- real estate is always long term...u make ur money when times are bad, but u only realize ur gain when times are good. IMO, do not have to time exact bottom only have to pick a good unit in good location MOST IMPORTANT that you get positive carry versus interest costs with some safety buffer....then, wait 5 yrs, 10 yrs, no matter....no need to read newspaper...

2nd, Arc obviously is a very good project, but if the price of other projects are going down in Orchard area, it's very hard to say Arc still can hand on it's price at the level your guys hopeful, even if it's only 50+ units. e.g, what if the price of St Regis and BLVD will be around 2000 or even lower, do you still think people will choose Arc over them?

actualy, my point is that price of Arc already dropped close to maximum very early. this is due to 1 firesale unit very early in the crisis sold at $2000psf (when last transacted was $2800psf). then, all buyers use this unit as benchmark to try n force lower. but project has hit a resistance point at this level...

but, in answer to ur points, actually St Regis and BLVD are a great example....these projects only have large size units....so total price quantum is much much higher. if u want a brand new reasonable size 2 BR unit in super prime building in Orchard area, can only look at Arc, Beaufort at Nassim, and Draycott 8. no others exist....

the last but not the least, when the market hits the bottom, I don't think the real estate market should be the 1st choice to invest in. you know what i mean? seems the stock market or other money market will give much higher and faster returns than real estate market.

So these are just my personal opinions, and good luck of cos!

actually, i am not saying invest in real estate INSTEAD of other markets....just part of portfolio allocation.

i think the ppl who are fearful in today's property market are the ones who are overallocated to real estate. will feel a lot of pain if they lose. if u talk to the ones that can really afford...they dont even consider selling in this environment unless can get out whole....otherwise, realize must wait one more cycle...

Understand a 2 bedder rented at $5k recently ? This is very low as 2 bedder cost around $2m even when bought at early soft launch (1130 * $17xx) ?

Understand a 2 bedder rented at $5k recently ? This is very low as 2 bedder cost $2m even when bought at soft launched ?

would be surprised at this as i know for sure that a 2 BR (-02 facing) was rented last week at $7.9k (fully furnished). maybe desperate owner?

also, -01 stack of arc is facing construction so maybe should be a bit lower than -02 stack.

most tenants seem to compare arc with paterson residence n cosmo. arc compares better in terms of finish and location, plus much quieter place (this is feedback from tenants...).

think a lot of agents pushing owners to fire sale and fire rent at arc and many owners from overseas so not 'on the ground' to make proper decision...

also got 1 fire rent (2 BR) at Draycott 8 (advertising $8.5k but likely can close $7k). this one most comparable for location and quality.

Reason I know that was because my friend loose out his unit rental at CBD last minute when one Arc owner offered $5k.

Reason I know that was because my friend loose out his unit rental at CBD last minute when one Arc owner offered $5k.

sorry for ur friend....if i am this tenant i will also rent arc if offered $5k....2 BR at arc is 1130 sf so much bigger than most CBD 2 BR units. think u can barely rent 38 draycott and 10 yrs old at this price for ardmore area

if it makes him feel any better, i also hear 25-01 at arc just transacted at $1800k....owner die die must sell and some more second owner so lost $500k.

wish i had more cash right now cos a lot of ppl making bad decisions (either not thinking clearly or in bad financial situation).

sorry for ur friend....if i am this tenant i will also rent arc if offered $5k....2 BR at arc is 1130 sf so much bigger than most CBD 2 BR units. think u can barely rent 38 draycott and 10 yrs old at this price for ardmore area

if it makes him feel any better, i also hear 25-01 at arc just transacted at $1800k....owner die die must sell and some more second owner so lost $500k.

wish i had more cash right now cos a lot of ppl making bad decisions (either not thinking clearly or in bad financial situation).

Any updates on this condo? any rental done?

a lot of -02 stack rented out.

apparently more trouble for -01 stack. many ppl dont want as SC Global just demolished Ardmore site so expect construction piling soon.

same problem as Trillium facing side at Cosmo.

what have u heard? you are agent right?

a lot of -02 stack rented out.

apparently more trouble for -01 stack. many ppl dont want as SC Global just demolished Ardmore site so expect construction piling soon.

same problem as Trillium facing side at Cosmo.

what have u heard? you are agent right?

Char Yong Garden transacted at 1025psf. Ardmore II sold at 1850psf. One St Regis owner letting at 1 mil loss also. High end are cutting losses now.

thought char yong enbloc ?

thought char yong enbloc ?

correct...capitaland. breakeven about $1.8k PSF

Char Yong Garden transacted at 1025psf. Ardmore II sold at 1850psf. One St Regis owner letting at 1 mil loss also. High end are cutting losses now.

still seeing a few desparate ones but not too much blood in orchard yet. mainly east coast...

interesting that past few weeks heard of at least 5 indonesians came to singapore to buy. so, think good deals getting snapped very quickly but overall market not really tanking.

IMO, rental mkt also still seems ok....still higher than 2003/04 by a long shot.

must wait until second half of year to see if vacancy really climbs. then can mop up the blood...

thought char yong enbloc ?

Sorry its not char yong. Its Yong An park that im talking abt transcated at 1025psf :lol: There are still buyers but all waiting at the sidelines till at least 3rd quarter and see how the market turns out. Generally speaking, rental is coming down. Interest rate going up coupled with rental coming down will result in negative equity. So investors not coming in now...

still seeing a few desparate ones but not too much blood in orchard yet. mainly east coast...

interesting that past few weeks heard of at least 5 indonesians came to singapore to buy. so, think good deals getting snapped very quickly but overall market not really tanking.

IMO, rental mkt also still seems ok....still higher than 2003/04 by a long shot.

must wait until second half of year to see if vacancy really climbs. then can mop up the blood...

Ya lor... u see the caspian still got so many people buying.... :nuts:

Sorry its not char yong. Its Yong An park that im talking abt transcated at 1025psf :lol: There are still buyers but all waiting at the sidelines till at least 3rd quarter and see how the market turns out. Generally speaking, rental is coming down. Interest rate going up coupled with rental coming down will result in negative equity. So investors not coming in now...

interest rates not going up...

rental should come down...Vacancy will shoot up...

not negative equity, it is called negative cashflow...

i thought 3mth sibor at 0.68%....probably can go lower at 0.5x%....same as 2003. Yong Ann too old lah...cannot compete with new development nearby....

interest rates not going up...

rental should come down...Vacancy will shoot up...

not negative equity, it is called negative cashflow...

Sorry dunno use the wrong term :lol: Anyway looking forward do ur think Sibor wil continue to be ard 0.68% or will it go up? Most banks offering Sibor + 2. The other thing, when will your enter the market to buy again :) After second quarter?

dont know...been wrong on inflation and interest rates...

interest rates likely to stay.....but will pop up very fast when inflation starts picking up..

I would lock in (higher) fixed rates...when refinancing before lock-up period (and pay penalty) if interest rates starts popping up..

valuation, not timing. below replacement costs first...:)

....

valuation, not timing. below replacement costs first...:)

....

that is the real question....will developers take write downs on landbank, which will lower replacement cost?

or u go by replacement cost now (in which case every single unit at ardmore area all selling below current book value of ardmore area land....)

if u believe in first one, then still a question of timing. if u believe in second, then can start buying the lowest price units now and just keep buying :)

as for interest rates....not to worry so much. in inflation environment, can convert to fixed and watch the value of ur loan shrink in real terms (real estate is usually good inflation hedge).

replacement cost = current mkt land price + current construction costs. simply put, the cost to build a similar building.

so if it is cheaper to buy than to build, then there must be some value there.

or value of condo is less than the implied land value (extreme scenario)

likely to be in resale mkt....not developers sales.

nothing to do with land purchase prices, bk value or writedowns......

when interest rates goes up fast, banks stopped offering fixed rate loans.

Capitalland intends to raise funds thru rights issue. Whats u guys take on it?

Capitalland intends to raise funds thru rights issue. Whats u guys take on it?


go to "prop trend 2009" thread...

interesting that SC Global only write down their Ardmore site by around 5% in financial results yesterday.

means breakeven still going to be at $2400-2600 psf. but they will sure again try to sell higher...

site already demolished...wonder if they will build showflat or right away start construction....

SC Global projects tends to market higher than other developers around the same location because of the design and quality workmanship.

It just like SL 500 vs SL500 AMG.

SCGD is in denial.. if they write down more, bank margin call liao...

last 2 transacted at higher than $2k psf again...same for Ardmore II and tate...indonesians back in the market this weekend in force

last 2 transacted at higher than $2k psf again...same for Ardmore II and tate...indonesians back in the market this weekend in force


Which 2? :) There is one available at 1900psf. Anyone keen :banana:

Which 2? :) There is one available at 1900psf. Anyone keen :banana:

ask developer which ones ;)

i think you can get a few 01 stack at 1900+ still...personally i wouldnt take anything without a $2 in front for my 02 stack though. after all, keep through the worst...can only get better.

My friend selling their unit here says now got flood of people at his viewing last weekend as prices of Arc at $2200-2300 now cheaper than Tate and Ardmore II at $2400-2800. Am thinking to put back on the market but a small part of my brain is starting to be greedy and thinking may get back to $2500+ after ghost month.

On the other hand, logic tells me that my first target price was $2100-2200 so if I can get it now then should not be greedy.

Any good advice to share?? Anyone know if SCGD is thinking to sell their next door project any time soon?? If so, would be best to just wait.

Wonder whether the angel or devil on my shoulder will win this battle :lol:

My friend selling their unit here says now got flood of people at his viewing last weekend as prices of Arc at $2200-2300 now cheaper than Tate and Ardmore II at $2400-2800. Am thinking to put back on the market but a small part of my brain is starting to be greedy and thinking may get back to $2500+ after ghost month.

On the other hand, logic tells me that my first target price was $2100-2200 so if I can get it now then should not be greedy.

Any good advice to share?? Anyone know if SCGD is thinking to sell their next door project any time soon?? If so, would be best to just wait.

Wonder whether the angel or devil on my shoulder will win this battle :lol:

Ardmore II, Tate and the new SCGD seems to be a little bit different from Arc right? Better comparison should be JC Draycott and 38 Draycott right?

Ardmore II, Tate and the new SCGD seems to be a little bit different from Arc right? Better comparison should be JC Draycott and 38 Draycott right?

:lol: no. i would try saying that if i was a buyer though LOL

My friend selling their unit here says now got flood of people at his viewing last weekend as prices of Arc at $2200-2300 now cheaper than Tate and Ardmore II at $2400-2800. Am thinking to put back on the market but a small part of my brain is starting to be greedy and thinking may get back to $2500+ after ghost month.

On the other hand, logic tells me that my first target price was $2100-2200 so if I can get it now then should not be greedy.

Any good advice to share?? Anyone know if SCGD is thinking to sell their next door project any time soon?? If so, would be best to just wait.

Wonder whether the angel or devil on my shoulder will win this battle :lol:

I think they may sell soon given the recent launches in that area with the latest being Volari. Also noticed they and Hayden started TV ads, perhaps their 1st marketing step.

:lol: no. i would try saying that if i was a buyer though LOL

Hi overlorden, as such a experience investor, can u teach me how to compare :) thanks

Hi overlorden, as such a experience investor, can u teach me how to compare :) thanks

no i am not so experienced...as an agent, you have the chance to know a lot more. sometimes, i think half the things i know, i learn from arthur :lol:

anyways, will see where singapore market is when i get back from china next month. the more i see property prices outside shanghai (hangzhou, a few other places), the more i think the real 'sure win' might be over here...maybe if i am lucky then can sell a singapore property, wait for RMB to drop a bit, n buy something in china...

no i am not so experienced...as an agent, you have the chance to know a lot more. sometimes, i think half the things i know, i learn from arthur :lol:

anyways, will see where singapore market is when i get back from china next month. the more i see property prices outside shanghai (hangzhou, a few other places), the more i think the real 'sure win' might be over here...maybe if i am lucky then can sell a singapore property, wait for RMB to drop a bit, n buy something in china...

If you are interested in chinese properties, you should get in asap. long term, it will be sure gain, and RMB is not going to drop. sooner or later, RMB will be a free trade currency, and it's value will be keep going up as Chinese economy keeps growing. so which means, if you put money in there, you are not only making money on its property, but also on its exchange rate. sure win!!!!

:applause: , you understand China market..... 2nd tier city prime property at CBD went up average 10-15% over last 2 months..... rumour said China RMB has to start appreciate end of the year or beginning of the year...

If you are interested in chinese properties, you should get in asap. long term, it will be sure gain, and RMB is not going to drop. sooner or later, RMB will be a free trade currency, and it's value will be keep going up as Chinese economy keeps growing. so which means, if you put money in there, you are not only making money on its property, but also on its exchange rate. sure win!!!!

:applause: , you understand China market..... 2nd tier city prime property at CBD went up average 10-15% over last 2 months..... rumour said China RMB has to start appreciate end of the year or beginning of the year...

I suppose to understand, served as equity analyst in Citibank Shanghai for 5 years. lol! as we all knew that China is still going to be the driving force in next 10 years, and the RMB will be appreciated sooner or later if they still keep close 10% grows of their GDP. Property is the a big part of their GDP, not only the big major cites, actually the best chance in China right now is those small cites close to major cities.

does anyone see any Duplex units in this project? how is it?

Seen non-duplex unit in this estate before but found the project to be very normal given the un-normal (high) price! :ohno: Estate area is very small, swimming pool is so small that only 1 or 2 person can swim the length, and no tennis court (if memory didn't fail me). Rooms also seem very small for the 2 BRs.

does anyone see any Duplex units in this project? how is it?

Seen non-duplex unit in this estate before but found the project to be very normal given the un-normal (high) price! :ohno: Estate area is very small, swimming pool is so small that only 1 or 2 person can swim the length, and no tennis court (if memory didn't fail me). Rooms also seem very small for the 2 BRs.

really? but i saw one duplex high floor unit at price of $2890 psf on the market. weird!

Seen non-duplex unit in this estate before but found the project to be very normal given the un-normal (high) price! :ohno: Estate area is very small, swimming pool is so small that only 1 or 2 person can swim the length, and no tennis court (if memory didn't fail me). Rooms also seem very small for the 2 BRs.

Haven't seen the duplexes but the 2BRs seemed quite big and I liked the layout OK enough for a couple. Actually I would have almost bought it because the wife preferred it more than most projects. We both thought the finishing quality and materials were of good standard and actually quite easy to get tenants because really no other new 2BR available in Ardmore.

Guess it depends what you consider 'high' for price...I thought $2.5 million quite reasonable for Ardmore area 2BR and I think the agent said the unit we looked at bought for around $2.7 million in 2007 - cant remember how much PSF it was - maybe $2100 but I don`t remember how big the unit was.

When we looked at it the 2BRs at Balmoral (Volari) were offering us $2.8-2.9 million but I didnt think they would get higher rental than Ardmore area so didnt think much upside there.

But in the end I found a too good to miss deal in Novena so actually I passed on Arc anyways haha :)

Now, my friend told me everything is asking $2400-2500 PSF around Tate so maybe I missed out...who knows, no point regretting, and anyways I never had $4 million to spend anyhow :lol:

Kind of agree with SGProfits. Always liked Arc becos nowhere else can buy new 2BR units in Ardmore area. Facilities definitely quite enough for only 58 units and definitely much better than 38 Draycott or 7 Draycott. I actually used to own unit here from launch but sold in 07 when top price at Arc was 3000psf transacted. Of course I didn't get that price haha but close enough. But, if you are getting it for today's price definitely not much downside as no matter what is always still Ardmore and capital appreciation will always be more here than other areas.

So which project you bought in Novena? Can share?

Haven't seen the duplexes but the 2BRs seemed quite big and I liked the layout OK enough for a couple. Actually I would have almost bought it because the wife preferred it more than most projects. We both thought the finishing quality and materials were of good standard and actually quite easy to get tenants because really no other new 2BR available in Ardmore.

Guess it depends what you consider 'high' for price...I thought $2.5 million quite reasonable for Ardmore area 2BR and I think the agent said the unit we looked at bought for around $2.7 million in 2007 - cant remember how much PSF it was - maybe $2100 but I don`t remember how big the unit was.

When we looked at it the 2BRs at Balmoral (Volari) were offering us $2.8-2.9 million but I didnt think they would get higher rental than Ardmore area so didnt think much upside there.

But in the end I found a too good to miss deal in Novena so actually I passed on Arc anyways haha :)

Now, my friend told me everything is asking $2400-2500 PSF around Tate so maybe I missed out...who knows, no point regretting, and anyways I never had $4 million to spend anyhow :lol:

So which project you bought in Novena? Can share?

Had got 2 very cheap Park Infinia units around $1250, one had a corporate tenant close to 5% yield. So far happy cos the other ones asking $1500+ now...

Congrats! Actually, somehow I find Ardmore area prices to be a bit over-hyped relative to the other Orchard areas, same for Volari or Ferrell Residences prices.

Had got 2 very cheap Park Infinia units around $1250, one had a corporate tenant close to 5% yield. So far happy cos the other ones asking $1500+ now...

Actually I think the opposite...Ardmore area price quite cheap considering the location if you compare it to Scotts Road prices...

Think of it this way: look how BLVD and Marq lifted the prices of Four Seasons park from 1700-1800 to 2500 in 2007. Even all the other surrounding crap buildings worth more after that. Expect the same thing for Ardmore area after SC Ardmore plot, only higher price for better area...

Actually I think the opposite...Ardmore area price quite cheap considering the location if you compare it to Scotts Road prices...

Think of it this way: look how BLVD and Marq lifted the prices of Four Seasons park from 1700-1800 to 2500 in 2007. Even all the other surrounding crap buildings worth more after that. Expect the same thing for Ardmore area after SC Ardmore plot, only higher price for better area...

A post after my own heart :lol::lol:

Seriously though, you are quite right. Price will not move much in a given area unless got new launch to draw attention.

So long as got holding power, can buy anything in Tate Residence, Ardmore II, or Arc for less than $2300-2500 PSF and downside will be forever protected once Simon Cheong gets his $3,500+ pricing...

A post after my own heart :lol::lol:

Seriously though, you are quite right. Price will not move much in a given area unless got new launch to draw attention.

So long as got holding power, can buy anything in Tate Residence, Ardmore II, or Arc for less than $2300-2500 PSF and downside will be forever protected once Simon Cheong gets his $3,500+ pricing...

SC Ardmore site is demolished now but no showflat....also drove by n saw they built a new shortcut to walk from Draycott to Claymore beside Tate Res....will save about 5-10 mins walk to Orchard compared to current walking distance and worker told me will be open in a few weeks after Tate gets TOP.

Compared to Cairnhill or Paterson, my opinion this is by far the best location for high end project due to traffic and convenience.

This Ardmore area is so far by walking to nearest MRT station (which is Orchard MRT station). I guess probably takes 20 minutes or more to walk? The roads turning into Claymore always very heavy traffic during peak hours. How can that be smooth traffic and convenient? Highest condo prices transacted here also no match to MarQ@Paterson or Ritz Carlton@Cairnhill. So how can this area be best location for high end project according to the high-end people who have voted with their money?

SC Ardmore site is demolished now but no showflat....also drove by n saw they built a new shortcut to walk from Draycott to Claymore beside Tate Res....will save about 5-10 mins walk to Orchard compared to current walking distance and worker told me will be open in a few weeks after Tate gets TOP.

Compared to Cairnhill or Paterson, my opinion this is by far the best location for high end project due to traffic and convenience.

This Ardmore area is so far by walking to nearest MRT station (which is Orchard MRT station). I guess probably takes 20 minutes or more to walk? The roads turning into Claymore always very heavy traffic during peak hours. How can that be smooth traffic and convenient? Highest condo prices transacted here also no match to MarQ@Paterson or Ritz Carlton@Cairnhill. So how can this area be best location for high end project according to the high-end people who have voted with their money?

I don't think people live in Ardmore so they can take MRT...at least, judging from the number of Bentleys and Lambos in the carpark :lol:

I agree if you just look at Claymore it is not a good road for traffic. But nobody uses that road who lives in that neighbourhood. The access from Anderson and Draycott Park is always v smooth and Ardmore itself is a very quiet street compared to fronting Cairnhill or Paterson. Clearly you haven't lived there but that's fine.

The most important point we apparently disagree is that the best value or best location does not equate to the most expensive. You have to remember that lesson, otherwise you might blindly buy something like Ritz Carlton or The MarQ thinking you will always make money because it costs the most. Must be very very careful having that type of thinking (for example as St Regis buyers are finding out)...

Well, strange that I also always see long queue of vehicles trying to turn into Claymore & Draycott Park during peak hours. Do seem that many people are using these roads and the traffic are bad. Taking Anderson is even worse because always see road-block there and VVIPs escorted by traffic police passing there and all other cars have to stop for them to pass (a long stream of these VVIP vehicles - may be of some VVIP events held at Shangri-La Hotel?). Residents become 2nd-class citizens in that area? :ohno:

Are people who pays >$5k psf for MarQ@Paterson and not willing to pay $3k psf then for Ardmore stupid? I am not too sure though, especially at $5k psf for MarQ@Paterson, even the smallest unit there costs $15m. :nuts:

I don't think people live in Ardmore so they can take MRT...at least, judging from the number of Bentleys and Lambos in the carpark :lol:

I agree if you just look at Claymore it is not a good road for traffic. But nobody uses that road who lives in that neighbourhood. The access from Anderson and Draycott Park is always v smooth and Ardmore itself is a very quiet street compared to fronting Cairnhill or Paterson. Clearly you haven't lived there but that's fine.

The most important point we apparently disagree is that the best value or best location does not equate to the most expensive. You have to remember that lesson, otherwise you might blindly buy something like Ritz Carlton or The MarQ thinking you will always make money because it costs the most. Must be very very careful having that type of thinking (for example as St Regis buyers are finding out)...

hahah the old Ardmore versus Cairnhill rivalry again...remember that from a few years ago. don't worry, everyone can have their own thread here:cheers: :lol:


Well, strange that I also always see long queue of vehicles trying to turn into Claymore & Draycott Park during peak hours. Do seem that many people are using these roads and the traffic are bad. Taking Anderson is even worse because always see road-block there and VVIPs escorted by traffic police passing there and all other cars have to stop for them to pass (a long stream of these VVIP vehicles - may be of some VVIP events held at Shangri-La Hotel?). Residents become 2nd-class citizens in that area? :ohno:

Are people who pays >$5k psf for MarQ@Paterson and not willing to pay $3k psf then for Ardmore stupid? I am not too sure though, especially at $5k psf for MarQ@Paterson, even the smallest unit there costs $15m. :nuts:

hahah the old Ardmore versus Cairnhill rivalry again...remember that from a few years ago. don't worry, everyone can have their own thread here. in any case, people paying $5k not paying for capital appreciation, just ego and own stay...:cheers: :lol:


Well, strange that I also always see long queue of vehicles trying to turn into Claymore & Draycott Park during peak hours. Do seem that many people are using these roads and the traffic are bad. Taking Anderson is even worse because always see road-block there and VVIPs escorted by traffic police passing there and all other cars have to stop for them to pass (a long stream of these VVIP vehicles - may be of some VVIP events held at Shangri-La Hotel?). Residents become 2nd-class citizens in that area? :ohno:

Are people who pays >$5k psf for MarQ@Paterson and not willing to pay $3k psf then for Ardmore stupid? I am not too sure though, especially at $5k psf for MarQ@Paterson, even the smallest unit there costs $15m. :nuts:

hahah the old Ardmore versus Cairnhill rivalry again...remember that from a few years ago. don't worry, everyone can have their own thread here. in any case, people paying $5k not paying for capital appreciation, just ego and own stay...:cheers: :lol:

can i add in grange as well?:lol::lol::lol:

Hmmm, finally got $2300 PSF here, lower floor....so long to catch up :lol:

Hmmm, finally got $2300 PSF here, lower floor....so long to catch up :lol:

Are you talking about the 1,432 sq.ft. @ $2,201 PSF?

Are you talking about the 1,432 sq.ft. @ $2,201 PSF?

No, was told it was #16-02, 1270 sf, $2,303 PSF

No, was told it was #16-02, 1270 sf, $2,303 PSF

you are right. i saw the caveat lodged today.

Now got duplex penthouse asking $2900 PSF....But most others around $2400-2500 PSF. I never thought will recover so much, but seems fair considering everybody and their cousin selling over $2k everywhere else now.

Now got duplex penthouse asking $2900 PSF....But most others around $2400-2500 PSF. I never thought will recover so much, but seems fair considering everybody and their cousin selling over $2k everywhere else now.

how big the penthouse is?

Just saw pictures from the builder's website. Amazing. Outdoor jacuzzi!