RIGHT TURN BANS
FOR KING WILLIAM ST
Trams force rule changes
for city drivers
By MILISSA KING
31oct05
RIGHT-HAND turns from King William St in the city will be banned next year to make way for trams but Lord Mayor Michael Harbison says Melbourne-style hook turns are an option.

Currently only off-limits during peak hours, right-hand turns will be prohibited between Victoria Square and North Tce to speed up the tram service and make new stops safe for pedestrians.

As part of the dramatic changes to King William St, overhead powerlines also will be installed.

Work on extending the line to North Tce is expected to start by mid-2006.

A tram corridor will take over the space now occupied by a median strip along King William St, with stops and shelters at the intersections of Pirie and Waymouth streets and Hindley St and Rundle Mall and at Adelaide Railway Station.

The Victoria Square terminus will be replaced by a stop at the western end of the square.

Despite rumblings among city councillors about the effect and cost of the change, Mr Harbison said he believed it would revitalise the city.

"I think we do have to have some courage and move forward," he said.

He said the extension would provide "enormous benefits", including better access to the Central Market.

He conceded, however, the change "will take some getting used to", and said the council might consider introducing hook turns at a later date.

Those right-hand turns, made from the left side of the road, already apply to buses turning right from King William St on to North Tce.

A Transport Department spokeswoman said the number of vehicles making right turns from King William St was low.

She said there still would be three lanes of traffic in each direction.

The proposed new route would take trams from the intersection of Grote and Gouger streets around the western edge of the square. The current track and terminus in the square would be returned to parkland but 18 trees would be removed to make way for the new tram tracks. Legislation enabling the Victoria Square changes has passed the House of Assembly but is likely to be opposed by the Liberals in the Upper House.

The new German-built Bombardier trams are scheduled to begin arriving next month. One of them clocked up 500km through German city streets before being sent to Adelaide for final trials.

Decked out in the Adelaide Metro colours of yellow, blue, red and white, it caused a stir when it was tested in mid-September in Chemnitz, eastern Germany. The tram was one of three due to arrive at Outer Harbor on November 11 or 12.

The three trams, on purpose-built trailers, would be taken by truck to Victoria Square, then driven along the re-laid tracks to TransAdelaide's Glengowrie depot.
________________________________________________________________

We have some idiotic councillors who don't have a clue about what they are running. Hook turns may work in Melbourne, but they won't work in Adelaide. In Melbourne, those negotiating an intersection only need to turn right across two lanes of traffic and 2 tram tracks, and only need to cross other cars and trams (and the odd truck). In Adelaide, this would mean crossing 6 lanes of traffic and 2 tram tracks, as well as buses. Even if it does go through, it won't work.

Extending the tramline is a fantastic idea, especially for the tourist market. Having no right turns on King William St shouldn't be too much of a problem should it?

4 lanes of traffic in Melbourne.

of course it will work in Adelaide, just add an extra couple of seconds on to the traffic light sequences.

Across this, the widest main street in any CBD in Australia? Many Melbourne CBD streets with trams are not much more than half the width of this.
http://www.photoadelaide.com/gal/2005/02/01/4_std.jpg

Try to make it look narrow:
http://www.photoadelaide.com/gal/2005/01/04/13_std.jpg

Typical King William Street intersection:
http://www.photoadelaide.com/gal/2005/01/04/14_std.jpg

Those streets in Adelaide are too wide. With widths that large I would think they should install pedestrain safety islands so they don't have to cross 9 lanes in one session.

The width of the street has exactly what to do with hook turns. You pull over in front of the traffic that is waiting to go in the other direction. When the light in that other direction turns green, you go. Simple.

In terms of getting used to it, remember it only exists in Melbourne's CBD (and for a test on one street outside). Most people in Melbourne would use them rarely, and probably never as a learner. So all the complaints from interstate about how they are weird, too hard, etc is a bit much considering Melburnians don't use them very often, but don't have problems when they do.

The width of the street has exactly what to do with hook turns. You pull over in front of the traffic that is waiting to go in the other direction. When the light in that other direction turns green, you go. Simple.

^^
What he said.

I lived in Melbourne for six years and thought the hook turn was a great idea, not only because it gave trams the open access they require, but also because it allowed traffic that was moving straight ahead to flow easily as well and not get stuck behind people waiting to turn right.

I never doubted that it would work for Melbourne, because I have seen it in action myself. It doesn't mean it will work for Adelaide though. King William Street is one of the busiest, if not, the busiest CBD street in Adelaide, and considering how different Adelaide streets are to Melbourne streets makes the argument that "because it works for Melbourne means it will work for Adelaide" pointless. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Two of the intersections particularly would be problematic considering the relatively large numbers that still do turn right (North Terrace and Grenfell/Currie Streets (shown in third image)).

Is it really necessary to have right turns from King William St? I would have thought that Pulteney and Morphett Sts are already more than capable of making it work, Adelaide is a grid of mostly two way streets so whats the problem.
Im not entirely sure that hook turns would work in Adelaide, for no other reason that there are so many bad drivers down there.

AG if anything it would work better with the wider streets. Melbourne has 2 traffic 1 tram lanes in each direction, meaning if there are alot of right-hand turning vehicles, then HALF the traffic lanes get blocked. In Adelaide, with 3 traffic 1 tram lane only a THIRD would get blocked by right turning vehicles.

In any case, no matter how busy the roads are it still works. Melbourne in peak hour often has traffic jams back to the previous intersection. All it means is that like any traffic jam if you are in the left lane but not INTO the intersection when your light turns red, you have to wait. That way there is only ever 4 or 5 cars through, which is not that different to a normal right turn arrow in a traffic jam. There is nothing THAT different about Adelaide that prohibits such a turn.

It still doesn't resolve the issue of buses being blocked by a queue of cars in the left lane trying to turn left and right. Many of the bus stops are barely 10m from the intersections on the far left lane. It would be even harder for the buses to try and move across one lane. The buses need to use the left lane too. It is fine for Melbourne, most streets don't have very many bus services, if any.

Buses can run on the tram tracks, using their stops. This occurs in Europe where you have buses and trams sharing a street. It would be silly to have a set of stops for buses and a set for trams. The Tram only traffic light would then allow them to turn right or left from the middle of the road.

The alternative is to run buses down the first streets parallel in each direction, which is what they are proposing for Oxford street in London if a tram was to go down.

A little bit of lateral thinking and these issues aren't issues. Adelaide is a medium size city with relatively minor traffic problems, and a perfect grid of wide streets. If narrow windy european cities can work it out, I'm sure Adelaide can.

Buses can run on the tram tracks, using their stops. This occurs in Europe where you have buses and trams sharing a street. It would be silly to have a set of stops for buses and a set for trams. The Tram only traffic light would then allow them to turn right or left from the middle of the road.

Considering the large number of buses that negotiate King William Street every minute, I don't think this is really an option. There are always at least a dozen buses in the northern half of King William Street at any one time.

The alternative is to run buses down the first streets parallel in each direction, which is what they are proposing for Oxford street in London if a tram was to go down.
It could be possible, but the problem is that the area that needs the buses the most would remain completely unserved. The nearest parallel streets wide enough to deal with these buses are around 500m either side of King William Street. Removing all the buses without adding any new public transport (and leaving just the new tram) at the same time would be economic suicide to the street. Many of the businesses set up along the street make much of their business from public transport users.

A little bit of lateral thinking and these issues aren't issues. Adelaide is a medium size city with relatively minor traffic problems, and a perfect grid of wide streets. If narrow windy european cities can work it out, I'm sure Adelaide can.
I agree that congestion is very minor problem in the CBD. I still believe that right turns should be banned permanently.

I agree with the right turns. They could probably leave them just to north and south terraces and at Victoria square.

As for the number of buses, I'm still sure when compared to cities in Europe that they could share with a tram without undue congestion. Not sure if there is currently a dedicated bus lane, but by have a dedicated bus/tram lane with traffic light priority, the added numbers would probably be offset by the lack of having to compete with private traffic.

In any case from North to South it is only 1.5 km, so a little congestion would never hurt, and if Swanston street in Melbourne can work (similar distance) as the main PT thoroughfare with the number of trams that converge, I'm sure KW street would work fine with a tram/bus mix.

Hi All from a first time poster (long time reader),

I LOVE the idea of the new trams and all that, and although I'm not convinced re the hook turns, I don't see it as a big issue as like another poster said, the amound of traffic actually making the turns is not all that great.

Anyway I was recently out and about getting some photos around Adelaide and have some here that you might appreciate, relative to this thread.

They can ALL be found here (http://www.gallery.adam.com.au/callan-adelaide) and here's the pick of the bunch :



http://www.gallery.adam.com.au/albums/callan-adelaide/IMG_0396a.sized.jpg

http://www.gallery.adam.com.au/albums/callan-adelaide/IMG_0410.sized.jpg

http://www.gallery.adam.com.au/albums/callan-adelaide/IMG_0412.sized.jpg

http://www.gallery.adam.com.au/albums/callan-adelaide/IMG_0415b.sized.jpg


Hopefully the 2 years until the trams start on the new extension will pass quickly!

Cheers,
CD

The answer to this is probably a bit stupid, but given that the very outside lane tends to be used by buses and parked cars only, why couldn't they put the trams in the lane next to this. I would have thought that this would be safer for passengers and since the trams wont be turning until they get to North Terrace this would be the only set of lights that would need updating. Or is there a rule that says trams have to go in the middle of the road?

Very impressive pictures Callan79 :) :cheers:

The way Adelaide has divided roads down the town centre with no turning lanes reminds me of Avenues in Sim City 4 Rush Hour :D

Or the GTA games.

I'm a tool. I try to drive around in GTA obeying traffic laws.

Yeah driving around in Grand Theft Auto obeying the rules is really slow :lol:

Cool pics Callan. Where did you take them from and how did you get up there? :D

Cool pics Callan. Where did you take them from and how did you get up there?

Hey AtD,

I work for Adam Internet, and our data center is 117 King William St, the one with Bean Bar at the bottom.

I'd just picked up a new camera (Canon A620, highly recommended!), and wanted to have a play.

And since Skyscraper City has sparked my interest in all things construction, I thought what better place than to get the Advertiser, Law Courts and the place of the new trams.

Unfortunately that's about all you can see from the building, it's blocked on most sides by bigger buildings - CommBank, Tax Office, Santos (obviously), Allegra Hotel . . .

CD

I'm a tool. I try to drive around in GTA obeying traffic laws.

Hehheh, I tried that in Need for Speed Underground, really not very exciting at all. Kickass game though :)

CD

The 1st GTA used to have a cheat where you could see your damage (100 being death, 0 being not a single dent to your car) and your current speed in miles per hour (i think). It made things more realistic to know that I was travelling down the road at 50mph or 80kmh in a Mundano. :D

But in the later versions of GTA, following the rules was no fun as there were no speed limits. Its also boring in NFSU2 because iirc the traffic signals dont work properly also in NFSU there's no slow cars, so driving in 1st gear (I'm too cheap to get a steering wheel & pedals or even a joystick) gets tiresome fast. Compared to GTA where you had a range of cars, fast and slow (ie 'normal' cars).