Please post the latest news and pics on the Carlton Hotel, which is to be turned largely into apartments with shops on the first level. It was once the poshest hotel in Joburg and had 663 room and until 1988 was operated by Westin Hotels (now part of Starwood Lodging). According to the Joburg News Agency there are plans to revamp the building which is part of the Carlton Centre office and shopping complex which are now owned by Transnet/Propnet.

As we know the Carlton Hotel closed completely in April 1998 because of inner city decline. The nearby HI Garden Court (formerly Johannesburg Sun) had 672 rooms before it was also forced to close down by Sept 1998.

Look forward to your replies!!!

well the HI agrden court (ex Joburg sun) has been reopened called Kwa Duzuka hotel and one would hope that there are better times ahead for the SOM designed Carlton Hotel

Im not too sure about this Kwa Dukuza Hotel 'ey.... does it actually operate?? Ive never been sure...

It would be totally awesome to see these iconic building rise from the ashes. It would be even more awesome, if the Carlton could get a very modern facelift, to become the centre piece of the Joburg skyline.

Im not too sure about this Kwa Dukuza Hotel 'ey.... does it actually operate?? Ive never been sure...
might be a job for Tom?

Folks,

I doubt that the Carlton Hotel will reopen as a hotel, let alone the five-star hotel it once was in the 1980's. I think that it is more likely to be converted into executive apartments for the personnel and clients of Transnet. The press had reported about it in 2002 reopening as a 200-room, three-star hotel (less than a third of it's original size) with apartments making up the rest. But so far there hasn't been any takers. It is obvious that potential hotel operators do not consider the Carlton Hotel a viable option. It would cost more to revamp it's outmoded rooms than to build a new hotel south of the CBD.

As for the former Johannesburg Sun (now the ghostly Kwa-Dukuza Egoli Hotel), it remains shuttered. It was open briefly by the city council for the 2002 Earth Summit as an overflow. While at the time there was hype about it reopening as a newly-revamped hotel, that was certainly not the case. one has to go by it and see that it's still derelict. The city council has not been transparent about the matter and it was wishful thinking that there would be demand for a 672-room hotel in a CBD. It will take the Joburg CBD 15-20 years to recover from three decades of decline and neglect. Likewise it is unlikely that the former Joburg Sun will reopen as a hotel. I think that like the Carlton it will eventually be converted to residential along with the adjoining Towers which used to have 115 executive suites until it was closed down in 1992.

The Carlton Hotel has a great architecture, it's such a shame it's closed!
The HI it's still closed, at least in July it was.

might be a job for Tom?

I believe it is partly opened as a hotel as of recently... then again, that may not be true.

(Re: the Kwa Dukuza Hotel)

Nope as far as I know it is as dead as a dodo. I don't think we should completely rule out the venue as a hotel venue, as don't forget we have the World Cup coming up, but I think the most likely option is that the building will be converted into apartments sometime in the future, provided the surrounding area is fixed up.

(Re: the Kwa Dukuza Hotel)

I think the most likely option is that the building will be converted into apartments sometime in the future, provided the surrounding area is fixed up.

Really? I think the Kwa Dukuza will be used as a hotel during the 2010 soccer.. no? Perhaps a mixed-use condos and hotel? :P

I think that if it used for the 2010 World Cup then it should be a sectional-title hotel with 200 rooms and the rest should become apartments. The 20-storey Towers next to it should be converted to luxury apartments. If KwaDukuza Egoli becomes a sectional-title hotel then the units can be converted back to residential after the cup is over if the market doesn't support a three or four star hotel in the CBD. Like wise the Carlton should be done the same way with a mixed-use sectional-title hotel and residential apartments.

The hotel is defo closed and the surrounding area is still not very nice, but it is very sad to see such a stunning building empty. I really hope someone opens a hotel on hollard sq /main street area because that area has sooooooooo much potential and is the best part of joburg as far as iam concerned. I am so frustrated that no developer has seen the potential for plaza style developments down that end of downtown, ie: converting old office buildings into apartments and opening up a mini mall/piaza type shopping precinct down there. I reckon the critical mass of people ie: BHP, ANGLO, STANDARD BANK employees is enough to make it a viable option.

SA BOY, in the Joburg discussion thread you mentioned that this was to be converted to condominiums... can you tell us any more details?

just read that there were plans to convert to appartments as 2 hotel bays (40m2 each ie 80m2) could make a 1 bed and 3 bays (120m2) could make a 2 bed unit. 4bays (160m2 ) for a 3 bed etc
This is typically how hotels get converted.
It will cost but I belive you could get a good return due to critical; mass of units to be converted, good hotel facilities (pool deck, lobby, interconnection to mall and pedestrinised surounds, on site parking etc


Same goes for Joburg Sun (will revert to origional name as its no longe KEH), this would take more time and may not be as good a properrsistion (no openable windows) but never the less these structures stand and with some TLC and forsite (such as urban ocen) these could be fantastic appartment oppotunities

What about Carlton Centre itself, are we gonna see more high-class clothings brands occupying the space? and small street, what's gonna happen there?

That is good news that the Carlton and Johannesburg Sun will be converted into apartments. I thought this was the best plan for these former hotels as they are too outmoded to reopen as hotels in a changed market for luxury hotels. The Joburg Sun would present a problem as it doesn't have opening windows unlike the Carlton, but in order to convert building it will need this modification. How much it will cost I don't know but the yields would have to be higher to cover the costly upgrades. The Carlton Centre mall is fully let and would certainly present an opportunity at least for the Carlton Hotel being converted into residential space.

I head carlton is being proposed and not the Joburg sun, thats my propoosal

the kwa dukuza`was used for the earth summit as somebody mentioned before so i don't see why it can't be used for the worldcup could become a usual 3star hotel

Where did you hear about it Giles? it's great stuff..

read an article on the plane somewhere last year

the kwa dukuza`was used for the earth summit as somebody mentioned before so i don't see why it can't be used for the worldcup could become a usual 3star hotel

I doubt the Johannesburg Sun would reopen as a 3-star hotel as it failed even after it was downgraded to a Holiday Inn Garden Court and even then they kept only 270 rooms out of 670 rooms open while the rest was mothballed. The Kwa Dukuza Egoli venture only lasted during the 2002 World Summit and since then it has remained closed down.

If they want to rent rooms out for the 2010 World Cup then it should be up to the future residents living in these buildings to decide like everyone else to cash in on the tourist influx from the event. I don't think it is feasible to have a temporary hotel that would just shut down after the World Cup and be a eyesore as it is today.

I think that if it used for the 2010 World Cup then it should be a sectional-title hotel with 200 rooms and the rest should become apartments. The 20-storey Towers next to it should be converted to luxury apartments. If KwaDukuza Egoli becomes a sectional-title hotel then the units can be converted back to residential after the cup is over if the market doesn't support a three or four star hotel in the CBD. Like wise the Carlton should be done the same way with a mixed-use sectional-title hotel and residential apartments.

I do not think this idea would work. I think that both the Carlton Hotel and the Johannesburg Sun should completely be residential. I think the Carlton Hotel could see R800 000 higher-end apartments while the Johannesburg Sun should see R400 000 to R500 000 affordable ones. The Sun Towers building on the other hand could see apartments similar in price to what the Carlton Hotel would likely get.

http://www.carltonhotel.co.za

"A 30 storey, R20 million "Rockefeller Centre" - including a R4 million hotel - to be built on a site covering four central blocks was announced today by the Anglo American Corporation and the South African Breweries"

"The birth of The Carlton is inevitably linked to the demise of what is affectionately called the "old" Carlton. As profits dwindled a decision was taken in 1962 to demolish it.

On hearing the news the MD of South African Breweries conceived the plan to build the best and biggest hotel in Africa. His idea of a hotel alone changed its emphasis when he met with Mr. Harry Oppenheimer of the Anglo American Corporation early in 1963 - together they formulated a concept which far transcended the original idea - a gigantic commercial block".

The "new" Carlton Hotel took seven years to complete and when it opened in 1972 to considerable fanfare, everyone agreed that it had the elegance, aura and distinction to make it a worthy successor of its old time namesake. The Carlton opened its doors for business on 1 October 1972.

Ten Years on "The Carlton has proved to be a leader in the hospitality industry in South Africa and a highly successful hotel. The Carlton intends to stay a leader in the next ten years by constant innovation and making improvements to increase efficiency and facilities".

"In August 1982 the super luxurious Carlton Court opened to much acclaim - designed to fulfil the needs of the discriminating traveller who is seeking privacy, exclusiveness and personal service. In ambience it is more like a residential club than a hotel".

"As the Hotel celebrated its 15th birthday, it was decided to show it’s appreciation to many loyal guests by recalling prices charged when the doors were opened. For one night only you could once again pay just R14- 00 for a room and when last did you pay 40c for a beer?"

Johannesburg’s five star Carlton Hotel, which has played host to the rich and famous, celebrates it’s 25th anniversary". In the Three Ships Restaurant you could enjoy a five- course meal for R250 per couple. At the EI Gaucho Restaurant a meal from the Carlton Classics Menu would cost R2,50".

Doors close on Carlton History - Johannesburg’s first five star hotel and one of its most famous landmarks closed down. It had failed to secure the casino license that would reverse its spiraling losses"…

During it’s time this hotel " has accommodated politicians such as former US secretary of State - Henry Kissinger, the late French President - Francois Mitterrand, US First Lady - Hilary Clinton and former British Prime Minister - Margaret Thatcher. Pop and movie stars such as Mick Jagger, Uri Geller and Whitney Houston have also added glitter to the hotel’s long history.

It also played host to events such as PW Botha’s 1978 Carlton Summit with business leaders, the 1991 National Peace Accord as well as the ANC’ victory celebrations after it won the country’s first democratic elections".

Some more:

Carlton Centre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The view from the observatory of the Carlton CentreThe Carlton Centre is a skyscraper and shopping centre located in downtown Johannesburg, South Africa. At 223 metres (731 feet), it is the tallest building in Africa and about half the height of the Sears Tower in Chicago.

Anglo American Properties began construction in the late 1960s with the demolition of the old Carlton Hotel and the closure of roads to form a city superblock. Massive excavation works saw a crater formed, where pilings were driven into the ground to support the new structure. The building was officially opened in 1973, around the same time as the Sears Tower and some two years after the opening of the World Trade Center. Its construction gave further impetus to the nickname that was given to Johannesburg: "the New York of Africa."

The Carlton Centre was designed by high-profile US architectural firm Skidmore, Owings and Merrill. It has 50 stories, including a viewing deck on the 50th floor, which affords views of the whole city and Pretoria. The building is the head office of transport parastatal Transnet, which has owned the complex since 1999.

Can the Carlton Centre Hotel hold 200 residential units?

it depends on whether transnet decide 2 keep there hq @ the carlton

Anybody heard anything?

Not on the Carlton - but apparently the smaller tower of the Kwadukuza complex will reopen as a hotel.

Not on the Carlton - but apparently the smaller tower of the Kwadukuza complex will reopen as a hotel.

That's good at least something is happening.

and the carlton hotel is still being used by the sabc for there dancing show

Oh, its held there? I didnt know that.

Yup in their ballroom. It's so totally Strictly Come Dancing! lol

lol, I always wanted to stay in this place when I was small, its was "THE HOTEL" to stay in Joburg back in the day, I was so envious of my cousin when they spent a week at the hotel. If only it can be restored to that prestigous status it once held.

http://us-cdn.creamermedia.co.za/template/en.v2/en_logo.gif

PROPERTY

Transnet holds back on Carlton sale, but says residential option is inappropriate

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By: Terence Creamer
26th June 2009
TEXT SIZE

State-owned Transnet had no intention of moving to dispose of the iconic Carlton Centre, situated in downtown Johannesburg, during the current property market downturn, but was also opposed to arguments that it forego profits on any possible future sale in the interests of a social housing project.

The head of the country’s newly established Housing Development Agency (HDA), Taffy Adler, said last week that State-owned enterprises (SoEs), including Transnet, should be obliged to sell property for housing projects for no more than their historical cost.

Adler indicated that the HDA had considered proposals for transforming the Carlton Centre into residential property, but that the plan had been made inconceivable by the fact that Transnet, which purchased the property from Anglo American for R33-million in 1999, was now looking to secure upwards of R600-million for the complex.

Briefing Parliament’s human settlements committee, Adler called for the development of a policy, whereby SoEs would forego market prices for property assets when these were suitable for social housing.

But acting Transnet CEO Chris Wells told Engineering News Online this week that this would be in direct conflict with Transnet’s mandate under the Public Finance Management Act, which directed management to act in the interests of Transnet.

“Acting in the interests of Transnet, means we need to dispose of this asset for fair value,” Wells asserted.

But, Transnet was also opposed, in principle, to any proposals of transforming what it saw as the “premier” business/hotel complex in the city into a low-cost housing development.

The group felt that the hotel could be returned to five-star grandeur, while Wells noted that the shopping complex remain vibrant, and that the office complex, which Transnet currently occupies, should be the “pinnacle” of office accommodation in the central business district.

“That’s not to say, that it is not important to have ambitions of creating affordable housing in the inner city, but the Carlton is no the appropriate building for that,” Wells argued.

“There are many buildings that are empty and boarded up in the city and no-one is doing anything with them. For the value of the Carlton, you could buy 20 of these buildings, and transform them into residential property,” he added.

But Transnet had no intention of entering into a debate directly with the HDA and the new Human Settlements Minister, Tokyo Sexwale, with Wells indicating that the discussion would need to take place at Ministerial level – Transnet’s shareholder Ministry is Public Enterprises, led by Minister Barbara Hogan.

Transnet was given a mandate in 2004 to focus on freight logistics, specifically harbours, railways and fuel pipelines, and had since proceeded with an extensive programme to dispose of noncore assets, including noncore property assets.

The most high profile of its property disposals to date was the R7-billion 2006 sale of the V&A Waterfront, in Cape Town, to foreign investors.

In the 2007/8 financial year, it also sold various properties to the Department of Public Works and Servcon for R191-million.

The group had other noncore properties, including the Carlton Centre, which it would seek to sell, but it would only proceed with such disposals once the market for property improved.

“We have done all the work we need to for the launch of the disposal of the Carlton Centre precinct.

“But, we have put it on hold until market conditions are such, that the potential property investor can secure funding and we can receive a better price,” Wells concluded.

Edited by: Creamer Media Reporter

Well done Transnet - you're such a credit to our country. Fools. They had the opportunity to sell this icon when the property boom was at its peak. Now they're going to sit on it and let it rot.

^^ I complained about Transnet's a on Jenny Cruise-Williams show on Radio 702 the other day. They said the same thing when there was a property boom. The City has got to do something about Transnet and other City destroyers. They need to impose a fine.

^^ I'm going to send an email to Barbara Hogan about Transnet. I think they're stuffing up our city.

I reckon she's quite a capable lady - maybe we'll get a response from her.

What other land does Transnet own which they're not doing anything with?
- Old Park Station
- Land outside Metro Mall where taxis rank informally
- ?

There's also one building in De Villers Street. You can send Neil Fraser an email and ask him that as he wrote an article long time ago about buildings that Transnet own and don't do anything about.

There's also one building in De Villers Street. You can send Neil Fraser an email and ask him that as he wrote an article long time ago about buildings that Transnet own and don't do anything about.

Just look at the decisions the "new" leadership of Transnet Freight Rail made:
All the buildings surrounding the Park Station complex is owned by them and will be prime property when Gautrain opens, yet they are selling the following:
1. 30 Wolmarans Street (Umjantshi House or old Paul Kruger Building - 18 floors) - right next to Gautrain and Park Station entrances.
2. 138 Eloff - right opposite the Gautrain station - 20 floors
3. 222 Smit - leased from Anglo American and being returned to Anglo - 20+ floors right opposite the Gautrain and Park Stations with BRT stations on both sides.
4. 39 Wolmarans Street or Logistics house on the other corner of Rissik with Wolmarans and Rissik with Smit.
5. Laboratory building on the other side of the Park Station complex.
6. Old Railways head office in Rissik Street next to Park Station
7. South Station building on southern side of Park Station
8. The Old Park Station building on the southern side of the Park Station complex build in the turn of the previous century.

All this to go and lease new buildings in Parktown.

yeah, Transnet is definitely pussy footing with development in downtown. but i agree with Wells when it comes to Carlton centre being turned into low cost flats, i think leave it as an office tower with hotel.

Just look at the decisions the "new" leadership of Transnet Freight Rail made:
All the buildings surrounding the Park Station complex is owned by them and will be prime property when Gautrain opens, yet they are selling the following:
1. 30 Wolmarans Street (Umjantshi House or old Paul Kruger Building - 18 floors) - right next to Gautrain and Park Station entrances.
2. 138 Eloff - right opposite the Gautrain station - 20 floors
3. 222 Smit - leased from Anglo American and being returned to Anglo - 20+ floors right opposite the Gautrain and Park Stations with BRT stations on both sides.
4. 39 Wolmarans Street or Logistics house on the other corner of Rissik with Wolmarans and Rissik with Smit.
5. Laboratory building on the other side of the Park Station complex.
6. Old Railways head office in Rissik Street next to Park Station
7. South Station building on southern side of Park Station
8. The Old Park Station building on the southern side of the Park Station complex build in the turn of the previous century.

All this to go and lease new buildings in Parktown.

Selling of those buildings is a posetive move and I hope that only investors that will not only refurbish the build but also upgrade the surroundings will but those properties. It was said that Retail Improvement District, inclusive of Kerk Street, and Eloff street will start earlier this year but I haven't seen any movement, do you guys know anything about this projects?

They should be forced to develop the place.

Does anyone have any old pictures of the inside? the lobby etc? would really be great to see them!

Times have changed:

http://grant49.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/d593c.jpg?w=600&h=988

Wow, well that is like 46 years ago. a whole dish for R1,15. i could use a lot of that today.

its even older then me

The original building was quite elegant pity they didn't use another area in the CBD to make a superblock out for the Carlton Tower, Hotel , Parkade, Ice Rink and Shopping Centre. Harry Oppenheimer the developer had very grand plans- pity the family have since done the chicken run to London. Must find and post the original hotel's picture.

cant blame the oppenhimers and Anglo as current owners have been even more appathetic and pathetic regarding the hotels future. Resi all the way was the feso solution many years ago and it remains so. fucking parastatal

Carlton Hotel can still get better and even more vibrant for the 2010! and I am sure over time things will even get better than what it is now.

JUSTPALM.com can help Carlton Hotel get back in shape through technology.

If you are serious about renovations and improvements of your buildings---

Visit: www.justpalm.com for more information!

Carlton Hotel can still get better and even more vibrant for the 2010! and I am sure over time things will even get better than what it is now.

JUSTPALM.com can help Carlton Hotel get back in shape through technology.

If you are serious about renovations and improvements of your buildings---

Visit: www.justpalm.com for more information!

And I think you should get your fucking spamming ASS out of here ASAP!!!

Carlton Hotel can still get better and even more vibrant for the 2010! and I am sure over time things will even get better than what it is now.

JUSTPALM.com can help Carlton Hotel get back in shape through technology.

If you are serious about renovations and improvements of your buildings---

Visit: www.justpalm.com for more information!

Comments are welcome, solicitation is not. This is a forum, not an advertising board. Stop your nonsense or you will get BANNED! Well, you wouldn't really care anyway, seems you're only here to make a buck, not to contribute. :ohno:

WOW lets set up a wireless network at Carlton! yes then it will be an 8* hotel! wooohooo!

I have a new idea: How about after the World Cup, the Carlton Hotel can be converted into a residence hotel? Also, I have been thinking about splitting the former Johannesburg Sun Hotel into two separate properties. The taller tower remains a hotel and the shorter tower is converted into residential use.

Comments are welcome, solicitation is not. This is a forum, not an advertising board. Stop your nonsense or you will get BANNED! Well, you wouldn't really care anyway, seems you're only here to make a buck, not to contribute. :ohno:

wonder why there posting it here unless one of us just won the lotto