Ford Mondeo is the same size as the Fusion. I think it would make for a great car since the Fusion is selling quite well. In a few years, the Fusion will be the odd one of the bunch as the Fiesta, Euro Focus, and new European-styled Taurus arrives. The U.S. lineup is going to mirror the European lineup within a couple years. The only difference is that we will have a sedan that slots above the Mondeo and also a few trucks.

In European terms, Mondeo is mid-class while Fusion is a small MPV. There's even a Focus between them in terms of size. So, Fusion is not the same size as Mondeo.

Do you have figures for other European countries? It seems you always think of Europe as same as the Netherlands in terms of PT use.

I think all European countries are ± same, PT is quite popular BUT some 70% of families own at least one car.

But, it's time for change. I'm just waiting for a diesel-powered Volkswagen Tiguan to show up on our shores...or Ford Mondeo, whichever one comes first.

Mondeo is not being sold in US...? BTW, Tiguan 2.0 TDI is the right choice. 34 mpg.

Your Ford Fusion:
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/0/m/l/ford_fusion.jpg

American Ford Fusion:
http://www.thetorquereport.com/2008_ford_fusion_sport_appearance_package.jpg


http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fusion/
^Info on our 2009 Fusion.

I wish they'd replace the mondeo in europe with the american fusion. I had a fusion as a rental car once, and I really liked it. mondeo is so f***ing boring. fusion isn't exactly exciting either but it has that certain something, which modeo lacks.

in general fords in europe are totally boring. today I would only buy the kuga.

http://img.stern.de/_content/59/69/596998/ford-kuga2_500.jpg

back to the topic though: god, I love american highways.

Your Ford Fusion:

American Ford Fusion:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fusion/
^Info on our 2009 Fusion.

Woops... I didn't know! I'm sorry! :bow:

Woops... I didn't know! I'm sorry! :bow:

Ah I'm glad we got the Fusion defused. Haha yeah same name, different cars on either side of the pond.

I think better American highways will bring better cars. If American highways are built with quality and speed, then so will our cars. Look at Germany. One of the legacies is that their cars are built to perform with their highway, and they almost always turn out to be built for high-speed Autobahn driving. America really needs this image. Instead, our car companies are in the state of Michigan, which also has some of the worst roads in the United States.

I wish they'd replace the mondeo in europe with the american fusion. I had a fusion as a rental car once, and I really liked it. mondeo is so f***ing boring. fusion isn't exactly exciting either but it has that certain something, which modeo lacks.

in general fords in europe are totally boring. today I would only buy the kuga.

http://img.stern.de/_content/59/69/596998/ford-kuga2_500.jpg

back to the topic though: god, I love american highways.

You don't like the new Mondeo or Fiesta?!?!??

the new mondeo is ok. the fiesta too. would never buy one though.

having said that ... the US models aren't very exciting either ...

conclusion: ford sucks (excluding mustang and kuga)

I saw a special on this exact thing happening about 10 years ago on NBC Dateline. Family from California was down in the Baja and got in an accident and the dad got thrown in Jail.

http://studentsafety.ucsd.edu/mexico_tips.asp

Game. Set. MATCH.

If there's an accident, and SOMEONE DIES there they arrest the driver (or the drivers if there where many cars in the accident) until they do some research and get to know who's guilty (Only around 12-72 hours)... They can't arrest you if there wasn't any death person

We are not so keen on Polish or Russian trucks too, because of the lack of maintenance, and a higher than average accident-involvement rate.

but we don't stop them from using our highways ...

but we don't stop them from using our highways ...

Ofcourse not, trade should be free.

As long as their trucks meet the Dutch requirements, there's not much we can do. However, you see that they are catching up really fast with their trucks. I drove in Germany last week, and nearly all Eastern European trucks were newer than the German ones I saw.

A recurring problem is that foreign truckers often exceed their driving time, you can read stories about truckers having driven 20 hours in a row in the newspapers. I don't know what kind of legislation there is in the United States about driving times, I read trucker stories about truckers who drive like 800 miles a day, which would be unthinkable in the European Union. With our speed limits, a trucker can drive about 750 kilometers a day without major delays. That said, I have to mention most trucking destinations are usually within a 2 - 3 day range (thus a 2000 km / 1200 miles range). Distances within the US are much larger, especially in the west.

I noticed even LA has few traffic jams during the summer months. When can we expect the holiday season to be over, and traffic turning back to normal? In Europe, it differs a bit, southern countries have usually the entire month of august vacation, while northern countries usually go during Juli, the Netherlands and Germany for instance already coming back from holidays and go to school.

Maybe its due to high gas prices? Americans don't have long vacations like many countries do.

The number of miles driven should decrease way more than those 60 miles/month/drivers license they seen now, in order to have nearly no traffic jams.

And then their is the cost issue. Making a vehicle achieve 40mpg is not really necessary if gasoline is cheap. What's the point? Had Europe developed around the automobile, had gas been cheaper in Europe, and had population density been similar to that of the United States I am sure that European car development would have been similar to the development of the automobile in the United States.



The U.S. is pretty densely populated in many parts, there are just a few states that are pretty empty. It was conscious government policy to build America for the automobile. Streetcars lines were torn up, billions were pumped into airports and roads and rail was left at a huge comparative disadvantage. Local zoning laws permitted auto-centric sprawl and racism led whites to flee the inner-city.


Good MPG is important because burning less gas produces less toxic air pollution.

Europe has a dense freeway system in addition to a good passenger rail network. Europena governments aren't controlled by auto manufacturers and oil companies.

Good MPG is important because burning less gas produces less toxic air pollution.

Pollution is IMHO a secondary problem in developed countries. Current economic slowdown, soaring material prices and Peak Oil are the topics of the day. Soon the gas polution problem will start to disappear as less and less crude will be available.


Europe has a dense freeway system in addition to a good passenger rail network. Europena governments aren't controlled by auto manufacturers and oil companies.

Europe is controlled by European Commission which is controlled by... ergh...? How are they elected..? Who controls them..? :nuts:

Oh, i heard also about policemen in Miami who don't know English. Is that true?:nuts:

I noticed even LA has few traffic jams during the summer months. When can we expect the holiday season to be over, and traffic turning back to normal? In Europe, it differs a bit, southern countries have usually the entire month of august vacation, while northern countries usually go during Juli, the Netherlands and Germany for instance already coming back from holidays and go to school.

Summer usually loosens up a bit with most people traveling somewhere else. I noticed that during the summer, rural traffic increases by quite a bit though. I traveled through I-90 and I-82 and I don't think I have ever seen so many cars on rural highways. It could be that summer is an agricultural season so all the farmers and trucks start doing traveling.

For some reason, Interstate 470 was never constructed. Instead we now have E-470, a toll highway that spans the eastern half of the supposed-to-be beltway and Colorado 470 (C-470 by locals) that takes up the western half. Both highways have yet to form a complete beltway as the northwest segment has yet to be built. Toll or no toll, why wasn't Interstate 470 constructed?

^^ Wikipedia:

Originally planned as Interstate 470 in the 1960s, the beltway project was attacked on environmental impact grounds and the interstate beltway was never built. The portion of "Interstate 470" that was built as a state highway is the present-day SH 470, which is a freeway for its entire length.

So, same thing in a different package. You see that in Europe too, with expressways which meet motorway standards popping up all over the continent, especially in Central and Southern Europe.

^^ Wikipedia:



So, same thing in a different package. You see that in Europe too, with expressways which meet motorway standards popping up all over the continent, especially in Central and Southern Europe.
Also, the money that was budgeted for I-470 was instead spent on metro-area transit improvements. Since the need for the road happened anyway, the only way to get it financed was through toll revenue bonds.

Mike

What a nonsense!Why would they built a multilane higway all the way to Churchill(pop:1000 I think).In my point of view it's better to connect Winnipeg and Regina

It may not be important where it starts or ends, I think it is more important of what is between the two.

Okay most ridiculous piece of news I've EVER heard:

Don't be a slowpoke in left lane, police say

By Yoshiaki Nohara and Jerry Cornfield, Herald Writers
It's a problem that many drivers cause on freeways without knowing it's illegal.

It's against the state law to go slow in the left lane of highways and back up traffic. Violators could face a fine of $124.

Troopers rarely issue a ticket, State Patrol trooper Keith Leary said. They try to educate drivers that the fast lane is meant to be used for passing, Leary said. Once a driver finishes passing another vehicle, they need to return to the right lanes.

"It's something people forget about," Leary said.

Slow drivers in the fast lane frustrate others, Leary said.

"It could definitely be a trigger for road rage," he said.

Tom Santeford of Camano Island said that sometimes he see drivers going too slowly in the passing lane. Many drivers also go much faster than the speed limit in that lane and stay there after passing other vehicles.

Allowing drivers to go faster along the passing lane than in other lanes would improve traffic flow, Santeford said.

His wife Kelly Santeford said that some drivers seem to be using carpool lanes for passing. The state finished widening I-5 with new carpool lanes in Everett this year to move traffic faster.

"It's little confusing sometimes," she said.

Carpool lanes aren't to be used for passing, Leary said.

Herb Durant and Tasha Nagy often drive from Abbotsford in British Columbia to Seattle to spend a weekend. Slow drivers back up traffic in the left lane in that province as well, but it's legal do so there.

The couple said they didn't know it's illegal in Washington. Durant said he usually drives in the very right lane along I-5.

"I have a lot of patience for driving. I love to drive slow," Durant said.

He said he can see why going slow in the passing lane is dangerous.

"They should get a ticket," he said. "They are as dangerous as going at 120 (mph)."

State lawmakers say they are not considering changing the law. They want the State Patrol to focus on education rather than ticketing for enforcement.

Rep. Liz Loomis, D-Snohomish, the vice chairwoman of the House Transportation Committee, said that she hopes the State Patrol is emphasizing the "common courtesy" involved in slower drivers getting out of the fast lane so the flow of traffic isn't impeded.

"I wouldn't be running around giving people tickets," Loomis said "I would be out educating people about why it's the law and why it's just common courtesy to stay in the right lane to let faster traffic pass you."

The law's intent is to make sure the flow of traffic is maximized and bottlenecks prevented, said Rep. Norma Smith, R-Clinton, a member of the House Transportation Committee.

"If there are people creating a hazard you want the State Patrol to do what's appropriate," she said. "I would expect the State Patrol will use common sense."

Danise Bell of Marysville said that she tries to avoid driving in the passing lane where drivers go too fast or too slow.

"I see them a lot," Bell said. "It causes traffic problems. It becomes a mess."

Troopers should ticket those drivers, Bell said. A law without enforcement is worthless.

Troopers don't plan to crack down on drivers in the left lane, Leary said. They want drivers to know the law and follow it.

"This is not an old law we are dusting off to come after you," he said.

That was on the major Seattle TV stations about a month or two ago. I see quite a few people that create blockades from going the same speed in the left lane as the guy in the right which does get irritable.

Yeah but what's a law if there is no enforcement?

The Downtown Connector, the I-75/I-85 combination that runs several miles through Atlanta, is 8 lanes on each side much of the way. Sometimes traffic moves, sometimes it doesn't.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/55607824_935931bb2a.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gt7348b/55607824/

No frontage road on that Freeway????.
I believe that all the Freeways in the US have frontage or acces road.

I was on the I-90 today outside of Buffalo. The tollbooths in the US are ridiculous; there was a traffic jam just to get through the damn thing. Then another to go over Grand Island. They need to ditch those in favour of fully electronic tolling. No stopping, no slowing down, no traffic woes. And no need for a fistfull of dollar bills in your car either.

Yeah, Grand Island is ridiculous. I feel sorry for the people living there dealing with those tolls.

The view from the north bridge of NFON's (niagara falls, ont) skyline is great though.

No frontage road on that Freeway????.
I believe that all the Freeways in the US have frontage or acces road.
Frontage/access roads are more the exception than the rule on USA freeways/tollways. Some areas use them more than others (ie, Texas and metro Detroit, MI), but they are the exception.

Local access is normally maintained via nearby streets.

Mike

I'm pretty sure you're talking about the North American Union conspiracy crap, right?


^ Are you sure it's a conspiracy XfX???

The NAFTA highway will be I-69, from Laredo to Detroit. Its the only planned extension of the interstate highway system. In Texas, much of Hwy 59 and Hwy 79 will be turned into an interstate, controlled access highway. Since the state of Texas has ripped off its state gasoline tax per gallon, more than half of the tax, to fund schools and hospitals, the Texas DOT has no money. The contractor for I-69 in Texas, the formidable HPZachary will fund the highway improvements with short toll road bypasses around every town on the route. The interstate will be free between towns, but there will be significant tolls bypassing the towns, effectively building a long turnpike for through traffic.

Because of huge growth of Texas, along with the Nafta traffic, Texas roads will have double the traffic of today within 20 years. So if you think traffic is horrible now, it will be more awful in 20 years. The Trans Texas Corridors scheme of Governor Perry failed to pass in the state legislature. While the rural areas of the state have conceded that the Dallas and Houston urban areas can have toll roads, the rural areas are against toll roads in the rural areas, except for I-69.

The Texas DOT is so scrapped for money today, much less the future, they have already conceded that there won't be another state highway built. They have also said without managed lanes on the freeways, none of the freeways will be expanded. The key is the word managed lanes, another word for a toll road. At a time when much of the interstate highway system will have to be rebuilt, the state DOT only has funds to resurface current highways, there is again no money for new or expanded roads without managed lanes.

Frankly, the state of Texas needs to stop raiding the state highway tax funds, finding another alternative to fund schools and hospitals. Yes, a tax increase. Otherwise, Texas faces a huge financial crisis, come hell or high water. This information comes from the state of Texas DOT, in every highway project projected for the future.

I thought I would add a side note here at the end. Considering that the price of oil has tripled within the past two to three years, its amazing how many still refuse to increase the gasoline tax a few cents a gallon or significantly change the tax system to fund schools and hospitals. If the public can swallow $3.00 increases for a gallon of gasoline, surely several cents of new taxes is nothing in comparison.

While many northern Americans find that graph posted before unreal, the simple truth is that graph reflects trucking patterns today and projected into the future. Its the old Sun belt vs. Rust belt argument all over again. The south is growing, the north isn't. Texas is no longer the fifth largest state per population, it is now Second only to California. The Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth metroplexes have already passed Detroit, and will soon pass Philadelphia for fourth. In twenty years, both are expected to pass Chicago for third. Both within 20 years will only be behind LA and NY.

Much more trade is expected from Asia in the future. Unfortunately, we only have five transcontinental mainline railroad east-west passes. No more railroad passes are expected. Yes, the continental divide is that tough. Give credit for the five we do have to the nineteenth century railroad barrons. Thanks to Panama widening the canal, Texas and many southern ports will be expanded. Unfortunately, that can not be said of the west coast ports, all being squeezed by housing areas. There is another railroad line through northern Mexico, the South Orient line. While its a good railroad in Mexico, Union Pacific abandoned its southwest Texas connection to South Orient. The state of Texas DOT is attempting to find funds to rebuild this connection, to create a sixth railroad pass for the USA/Mexico. Canada has two passes too, but they are just as busy as ours hauling Canadian goods.

^ Are you sure it's a conspiracy XfX???
I'm not "sure" it is, but i believe it is yeah.

I'm not "sure" it is, but i believe it is yeah.


^ I wouldn't mind that this major Tri-Country Hwy as long as a high speed train would be built along side.

XfX, I'll see you at the LA Meet!!!!!!:nuts:

Toronto gets it the worst. Our dickhead primeminister hates us and our transit budget is half that of Pheonix metro's!


Next time vote for him and you might get more money. :lol:

From rumors I heard, this super-highway would have everything, car lanes, trains, power lines, oil piping, water, etc. Many people hate it because they fear that it is the start of the NAU (North American Union) and that is why I like it.

I was on the I-90 today outside of Buffalo. The tollbooths in the US are ridiculous; there was a traffic jam just to get through the damn thing. Then another to go over Grand Island. They need to ditch those in favour of fully electronic tolling. No stopping, no slowing down, no traffic woes. And no need for a fistfull of dollar bills in your car either.

I believe Washington State has a system where there are toll booths, and there are electronic toll collectors. If you use the electronic toll collectors, your fare is much lower than the booths.

I believe Washington State has a system where there are toll booths, and there are electronic toll collectors. If you use the electronic toll collectors, your fare is much lower than the booths.

This is more what I meant:

http://international.fhwa.dot.gov/pubs/pl07027/images/figure_4.jpg

No toll booths at all. Maybe we'll see more of this in the near future.

I suspect if a Democrat wins the White House this year, we'll see the double nickeal speed limit again by the end of next year. Not so much for safety reasons, but to conserve gasoline.

I was on the I-90 today outside of Buffalo. The tollbooths in the US are ridiculous; there was a traffic jam just to get through the damn thing. Then another to go over Grand Island. They need to ditch those in favour of fully electronic tolling. No stopping, no slowing down, no traffic woes. And no need for a fistfull of dollar bills in your car either.

Thats what EZ Pass is for.lol.

People have been fighting the Grand Island tolls and the Williamsville tolls might be moved out in Akron I think.

This is more what I meant:

http://international.fhwa.dot.gov/pubs/pl07027/images/figure_4.jpg

No toll booths at all. Maybe we'll see more of this in the near future.

They are doing this in Texas as well, starting with the George Bush toll road around Dallas. The state DOT intends to remove all toll booths soon using an updated toll tag system I believe Washington state is using.

The new Nafta highway will have this too. There is a good chance the rest of the free interstates will have toll bypasses as I-69.

Frontage/access roads are more the exception than the rule on USA freeways/tollways. Some areas use them more than others (ie, Texas and metro Detroit, MI), but they are the exception.

Local access is normally maintained via nearby streets.

Mike


Thanks for your answer.
Yes, I think that was my mistake, I suppossed something that was incorrect because I have only driven in Texan Cities like San Antonio, Houston and Austin, so I believed that all US freeways have the same pattern. :)

Taking that into consideration it is interesting to note than in 2007 the United States transported more freight (billions of tonne-kilometers) than any other nation by rail.

Well, America is the 3rd largest country in the world and the two above it, Russia and China, have vast swaths of land where there are no railroads whatsoever.

It will be funny to see how the anti-social, limited government south will handle the continued population increases and resulting traffic and pollution that it incurs. Will the cities keep expanding outward in an era of peak oil and high gas prices? Will they maintain their anti-tax zealotry and refuse to make the necessary investments in infrastructure?

Texas is growing due to foreign immigration (legal and illegal). It still has a very low population density.

...getting back to the super Highway and whatnot. If this major corridor is built are they have toll booth and how will they charge, dollars or amero?

What our state has currently for the SR 16 Tacoma Narrows bridge is eletronic toll collection where those are used for those who have a pass mounted to the windshield, otherwise, you must pay cash at a toll booth. Probably a better comparison would be Toronto's Highway 407 where they take a picture of the license plate and you pay the toll by mail

I suspect if a Democrat wins the White House this year, we'll see the double nickeal speed limit again by the end of next year. Not so much for safety reasons, but to conserve gasoline.

Modern cars don't consume much more fuel with 75 mph or 60 mph. It begins to add up if you constantly hit speeds above 80 mph. My car is most fuel efficient at 75 mph (=47 mpg).

If they really want to conserve gasoline they should

1) Change to more fuel efficient diesel
2) Buy fuel efficient cars
3) Avoid stop-and-go-traffic in cities
4) Resolve some of the worst traffic jams
5) Lower the speed limits for trucks to 50 / 55 mph.

Thats what EZ Pass is for.lol.

People have been fighting the Grand Island tolls and the Williamsville tolls might be moved out in Akron I think.

The EZ pass is no better, you still have everyone slowing down (at best).

If the trucks are in decent condition and if the truck drivers can understand enough english to understand the traffic signs then I don't see why this is a problem

...getting back to the super Highway and whatnot. If this major corridor is built are they have toll booth and how will they charge, dollars or amero?I would say dollars, because I believe that any form of currency union between the United States and either one or both of Canada and Mexico would result in the United States dollar being the currency. I highly doubt that there will be a currency called the "amero" in North America. If they must introduce a new currency, I still think it will be called the "dollar".

I see sometimes Canadian trucks in Southern California. Is it possible due to NAFTA agreements or there is a special agreement between Canada and the USA?

I dont think Canadian trucks have the same restrictions as Mexican trucks. I see a few trucks with Ontario license plates here in Houston.

I suspect if a Democrat wins the White House this year, we'll see the double nickeal speed limit again by the end of next year. Not so much for safety reasons, but to conserve gasoline.

It was a republican who voiced that, not a democrat. The Democrats were the ones who gave speed limit control to states in the 1990s.

but we don't stop them from using our highways ...
Well, last year the Swedish road agency Vägverket got fed up with all the Russian buses from the 70s that had no diesel particle filters (a requirement in the law here) and so the police forbade the buses from going anywhere. They had to be towed to the ferries as they were not allowed to run on Swedish territory. :p: However this was the only time this was ever done, you still see tons of buses (and trucks) all the time. It was just to make a statement, I suppose.

The EZ pass is no better, you still have everyone slowing down (at best).

Well it does move a lot faster. But it's so strange - so many seem so against it. I was driving not long ago on the Bay Bridge in Maryland near DC and it seemed like 90% of drivers were going through the regular tolls. It was early morning and a huge number of those were surely commuters. So strange that they wouldn't get the pass...

Modern cars don't consume much more fuel with 75 mph or 60 mph. It begins to add up if you constantly hit speeds above 80 mph. My car is most fuel efficient at 75 mph (=47 mpg).

If they really want to conserve gasoline they should

1) Change to more fuel efficient diesel
2) Buy fuel efficient cars
3) Avoid stop-and-go-traffic in cities
4) Resolve some of the worst traffic jams
5) Lower the speed limits for trucks to 50 / 55 mph.
Most cars have the best mpg's between 55 and 65 mph. Also I agree with stop and go traffic as most lights are poorly timed and this doesn't help that case.

I only know IH-35 from Laredo, TX to Dallas FWT, TX.

IH-5 from L.A. to San Diego, CA.

IH-10 fromm San Antonio to Houston TX.

IH-45 from Houston to Dallas TX.

IH-37 from Corpus Christi to San Antonio, TX.

and IH-95 from Orlando, FL to Miami, FL area.

All of them are beautiful and excellent!

I was really impressed with the highways in southern California... the I-5 is great.

Most cars have the best mpg's between 55 and 65 mph.

With my 150 HP Honda I get 31 mpg at 60 mph and 29 mpg at 80 mph. Doesn't seem much difference to me.

Most cars have the best mpg's between 55 and 65 mph. Also I agree with stop and go traffic as most lights are poorly timed and this doesn't help that case.
What's really sad is that even with high gas prices, environmental consequences, dependency problems, etc., car commercials in the US still advertise huge cars and then brag about 20mpg or - a few here and there - 30 mpg being absolutely amazing.

My first car years ago before any of these crises started got 45mpg.

The dense grid-network they have in older urban area's in the US isn't really helping fuel economy too... Lots of stop-and-go's. I prefer the 1 by 1 mile grids, so you don't have to stop all the time. You usually see those in newer urban areas.

I-10 is now jammed near New Orleans due to people leaving the city because of Hurricane Gustav.

Maybe we get this kind of pics again:
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/8033788.jpg

The dense grid-network they have in older urban area's in the US isn't really helping fuel economy too... Lots of stop-and-go's. I prefer the 1 by 1 mile grids, so you don't have to stop all the time. You usually see those in newer urban areas.

Most suburban areas are built like that, but once they get more built up, more traffic lights get added to various businesses and shopping plazas that line the main roads. These areas will tend to have about 4-5 traffic lights each mile (maybe more) once they get fully built out.

It must be horrible to live in New Orleans right now. The pic Chris posted says enough.

http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/8033788.jpg

^^ Holy Sh*t!

Mt. Rainier from I-5.
http://i33.tinypic.com/drd0ua.jpg

The dense grid-network they have in older urban area's in the US isn't really helping fuel economy too... Lots of stop-and-go's. I prefer the 1 by 1 mile grids, so you don't have to stop all the time. You usually see those in newer urban areas.

What do you mean by 1 by 1 mile grids?

The city I leave in, called Bellevue, it's about 10 miles east of Seattle, has city blocks that are 600 feet by 600 feet, (183m by 183m), and those blocks are huge. For pedestrians, those are nightmares, because there is virtually nowhere to cross the street. Paddington's right, those "superblocks" may be there when density is low, but once the development and pedestrian traffic increases, signals will start to pop up.

Picture time. Here's a section of I-90 that is by far the best U.S. road I've traveled on. This is I-90 between milepost 13 and 18.

Road before I-90 on-ramp.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01449.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01451.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01454.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01458.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01459.jpg

On-ramp

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01460.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01461.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01462.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01465.jpg

Highway

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01466.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01467.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01468.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01469.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01470.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01471.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01472.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01473.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01474.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01475.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01476.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01477.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01478.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01479.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01480.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01481.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01482.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01483.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01484.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01485.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01486.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01487.jpg

Off-Ramp

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01489.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01490.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01491.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01492.jpg

If you look closely, those are leaves printed into the concrete

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01493.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01494.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01495.jpg

Road after off-ramp

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01496.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01497.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01498.jpg

Just for fun, some pictures of the major development project going on. It's an "urban village" development with 3000 new homes being built.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01501.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01502.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01503.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01504.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01505.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01507.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01508.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/WA%20Highway%20Pictures/WA%20Highways%203/DSC01509.jpg

Nice pics! Is the I-90 actually at least 2×3 all the way from Boston to Seattle? Even in the remote parts in Montana and South Dakota?

Nice pics! Is the I-90 actually at least 2×3 all the way from Boston to Seattle? Even in the remote parts in Montana and South Dakota?

Thanks! No it is not. In Washington, it kind of goes something like this:

starts out 2x4
Milepost 1: 2x3 with a middle reversible 2-lane HOV for about 8 miles
Milepost 8: 2x4 again
Milepost 15: 2x3
Milepost 20+: 2x4

Then past that section when you reach around milepost 50-60 or so, it drops down to a 2x2 for central Washington. In rural areas, there is really no need for a 2x3. I heard that in some areas, it's not even a dual carriageway, although I haven't confirmed it with anyone. I should go check out Google Maps when I have time.

Traffic volumes are extremely low in most of the northern States, sometimes even below 10,000 vehicles/day. Some parts of the I-90 are hundreds of miles away from the nearest place you can actually call a "city".

Is closed between I-55 (#210) and Clearview Pkwy/Huey Long Brg (#226) due to Contraflow in place - all eastbound lanes are used for westbound travel.

Evacuation - The Contraflow agreement between the State of Lousisana and Mississippi on I-59 and I-55 North will begin at 4:00am Sunday morning and end at midnight. All lanes of I-59 from the Louisiana State line to Poplarville will be northbound. All lanes of I-55 from the Louisiana State line to Bogue Chitto will be northbound.

#
Jammed

I-10 - Eastbound

Jammed Elysian Fields Av (#237) to I-12/I-59 (#267)

Massive traffic jam (30miles / 50km!) at 5.30 in the morning.

Camera recording contraflow:
http://i38.tinypic.com/21dn154.jpg

Curious, wouldn't have it been better to have police metering traffic onto the freeway out so that traffic could flow at around 45 mph/70 kmh? Or is it better to let contraflow jam like this?

Thanks! No it is not. In Washington, it kind of goes something like this:

starts out 2x4
Milepost 1: 2x3 with a middle reversible 2-lane HOV for about 8 miles
Milepost 8: 2x4 again
Milepost 15: 2x3
Milepost 20+: 2x4

Then past that section when you reach around milepost 50-60 or so, it drops down to a 2x2 for central Washington. In rural areas, there is really no need for a 2x3. I heard that in some areas, it's not even a dual carriageway, although I haven't confirmed it with anyone. I should go check out Google Maps when I have time.
I-90 just east of Lookout Pass in Montana was 4 lanes undivided, but a concrete barrier was installed that section within the past few years.

I-90 is entirely dual-carriageway now.

Mike

Hey HAWC1506, has lane discipline improved in Seattle area ever since police start enforcing it?

Seriously, that is a beautiful picture.

Updated view :)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jXtOOrPI/AAAAAAAAAN8/IAdD7cty7Aw/s800/IMG_0969.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232675605884146)

I-90 floating bridge
http://lh3.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jnOvgf0I/AAAAAAAAASE/v7ZsQ-1Zfy0/s800/IMG_1006.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232942301871938)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jmv7_1sI/AAAAAAAAAR8/xEWZHOeyvBk/s800/IMG_1005.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232934032758466)

Can you spot the left lane driver?
http://lh6.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jKGGHQHI/AAAAAAAAAK4/KPqNfduZNGw/s800/IMG_0930.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232441764561010)

Random I-90 e/w bound shots:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5ja5DKrQI/AAAAAAAAAO0/OgDlQkEJgrY/s800/IMG_0976.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232730320317698)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5je4TH4BI/AAAAAAAAAP0/a6Rs428cuTM/s800/IMG_0985.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232798838284306)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jUcTwF8I/AAAAAAAAANI/FQ_vd7e4g9w/s800/IMG_0949.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232619526035394)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SLutShvWQ0I/AAAAAAAAAf4/gNkUu_Uzduw/s800/IMG_1084.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5240973125181915970)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SLutSv3gLrI/AAAAAAAAAgA/wKpZc0Rf50c/s800/IMG_1086.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5240973128974216882)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SLutSsXC-0I/AAAAAAAAAgI/cd27sEcI2jE/s800/IMG_1116.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5240973128032779074)
(all taken by myself)

^^Lane disipline is non-existent in the Seattle area. People are still in the left lanes. Trucks are still in the passing lane. Nothing's gotten better. As far as I can see, nothing will get better. Politicians just ignore the issue, highway patrol just want money from speeding tickets, and traffic law enforcement in Washington State is still an absolute joke. :ohno:

Here's an article I wrote about the issue. It talks about everything from statistics to laws and enforcement: http://www.autosavant.com/2008/08/28/the-american-plague-of-overtaking-on-the-right/

Leave a comment please :]

Updated view :)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jXtOOrPI/AAAAAAAAAN8/IAdD7cty7Aw/s800/IMG_0969.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232675605884146)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jUcTwF8I/AAAAAAAAANI/FQ_vd7e4g9w/s800/IMG_0949.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232619526035394)

(all taken by myself)

Where these pictures are taken?

^^Lane disipline is non-existent in the Seattle area. People are still in the left lanes. Trucks are still in the passing lane. Nothing's gotten better. As far as I can see, nothing will get better. Politicians just ignore the issue, highway patrol just want money from speeding tickets, and traffic law enforcement in Washington State is still an absolute joke. :ohno:

Here's an article I wrote about the issue. It talks about everything from statistics to laws and enforcement: http://www.autosavant.com/2008/08/28/the-american-plague-of-overtaking-on-the-right/

Leave a comment please :]

No surprise there. I don't think anybody is going to know lane discipline unless there is there in people's mentality on this regard. And there are some people think American drivers are disciplined!

No surprise there. I don't think anybody is going to know lane discipline unless there is there in people's mentality on this regard. And there are some people think American drivers are disciplined!

American drivers are far from disciplined. I don't think I've seen any developed country with worse drivers than the United States.

There are countries who have drivers that follow the law and drive well. There are also countries who have drivers who don't follow the law, but drive well. Then there are countries where drivers follow the law, but aren't the best drivers. Finally we have the United States, which is a country where drivers neither drive well nor follow the law.

If the United States were to undergo Germany's drivers ed program today, I won't have any doubt that at least 30% of the drivers would be eliminated from American roads.

I noticed both of my teenage sisters staying in the left lane of the hightway. When I asked them about it (both have passed driver’s ed), neither claimed to know what I was talking about and argued the fact with me. It’s clearly an education issue.So some Americans don't even know the left lane is overtake-only? I wonder how many that would be (%).

Which countries have you been?

Where these pictures are taken?

These were taken near Vantage, Washington. Here is a more complete view if you'd like.

Pano:
http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pano11ta5.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jN7WI_EI/AAAAAAAAAL4/e4Ktzv1i40w/s800/IMG_0939.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232507598470210)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jOhJFDtI/AAAAAAAAAMA/7qFo5S7872U/s800/IMG_0940.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232517744234194)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jPndMw7I/AAAAAAAAAMQ/9fypgCY7J7Q/s800/IMG_0942.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232536619107250)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jQCfezcI/AAAAAAAAAMY/vHKnQPhYMa8/s800/IMG_0943.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232543876435394)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jQngPtaI/AAAAAAAAAMg/4z6Z3cxYBJA/s800/IMG_0944.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232553811752354)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jYF6jYdI/AAAAAAAAAOE/ngUU-s_BiS4/s800/IMG_0970.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232682234241490)
South
http://lh6.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jYxlI_TI/AAAAAAAAAOU/2ImUU5F_d4Q/s800/IMG_0972.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232693955591474)
North
http://lh6.ggpht.com/lexgxel/SK5jZRYi7nI/AAAAAAAAAOc/3BMg14camj8/s800/IMG_0973.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.com/lexgxel/SeattleTrip/photo#5237232702492700274)

Which countries have you been?

UK, France, Japan, Taiwan (developing country with some of the most skilled drivers, although they don't follow the rules), U.S., Canada. Looking forward to Germany and Italy in a few years.

So some Americans don't even know the left lane is overtake-only? I wonder how many that would be (%).

Not only some. Most don't even know the left lane is for overtake only. The law is clearly stated in the drivers manual, but it's not practiced, nor is it known by the majority of the drivers.

In the rural areas though, people do keep right except to pass. Although I suspect it is more of people being courteous rather than obeying the law. There are signs that say 'keep right except to pass' though. If you look at the picture above posted by Grayproduct, you'll notice that trucks stick to the right side of the road.

Generally, people who live in rural areas know the law better than people in urban areas, which is understandable because traffic volume is so low in rural areas. The argument is that in urban areas, there is too much congestion to enforce the law. Well what about the 16 hours of the day that are NOT congested? People are still driving in the passing lane when there is no congestion.

Oh and btw, welcome to the thread Grayproduct :]

Oh and btw, welcome to the thread Grayproduct :]

Thanks! I'm glad to be in the company of intelligent individuals.

And there are some people think American drivers are disciplined!

Actually, I hear it all the time from people visiting the states.

^^Sometimes they're quite dangerous and reckless, sometimes they're good. Personally I think Dutch drivers drive a little more careful

Nice view of the I-10 west of Baton Rouge, LA.

http://i37.tinypic.com/rtnxg8.jpg

Generally, people who live in rural areas know the law better than people in urban areas, which is understandable because traffic volume is so low in rural areas. The argument is that in urban areas, there is too much congestion to enforce the law. Well what about the 16 hours of the day that are NOT congested? People are still driving in the passing lane when there is no congestion.

I'd say people in cities are lazy to change lanes all the time (beside some/most of them not even knowing about the law).

Actually, I hear it all the time from people visiting the states.

They haven't driven much than. Come drive to MD and see how "disciplined" drivers are.

I'd say people in cities are lazy to change lanes all the time (beside some/most of them not even knowing about the law).

Ohhhhhh no they are not lazy to change lanes. I drove today during rush hour and everyone was weaving in and out. Especially during exits. If you leave enough space between you and the car in front of you, chances are someone is going to cut in for no reason at all.

I did notice though on State Route 520, *many* people keep right except to pass. It's two lanes with the carpool lane on the right (which is a bad idea and causes lots of uneccessary weaving). Truck traffic is restricted to only the right lane (general purpose lane), so even though traffic was rather heavy, everyone could drive above the speed limit at around 65-70 mph. I was impressed. Things would be even better if the carpool lane was just a shoulder that will open to carpool traffic during rush hours. I think that is the way it should be for all highways, instead of having an additional lane on the left or right.

By the way, here's a picture I took. This is the I-90 floating bridge on Lake Washington with the city of Bellevue to its Northeast:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/PeopleCore/Lake_Washington_Panoramic.jpg

Bellevue is like the 3rd most important business center in the metropolitan area, right? (after Seattle and Tacoma).

Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma in that order. Tacoma's business is mostly shipping and wood products, but does account for a lot of revenue.

Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma in that order. Tacoma's business is mostly shipping and wood products, but does account for a lot of revenue.

Bellevue has one of the highest incomes in Washington State. It wouldn't really be wrong to say that Microsoft takes up half the city. Eddie Bauer, Amazon.com, Paccar shipping, T-mobile cellphone network all have headquarters in Bellevue. Microsoft has rented out a few buildings as well.

If I can get a job at Boeing, I will move to Bellevue too :)

Here's some random shots I took the other day while driving from my home near Milwaukee to Minocqua, WI (very Northern part of the state).

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0694.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0695.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0696.jpg
Roadwork through Fond Du Lac.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0697.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0698.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0699.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0700.jpg
I'm not sure what those lines are for.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0701.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0702.jpg

Wisconsin's freeway system isn't too bad. It's also toll free :)

I do wish that they would put the barrier cables up along the entire freeway system. Usually you only see them in areas where they had many people crossing the median (U.S. 41 between Fond du Lac and Lomira, U.S. 43 south of Port Washington).

As far as the large center median, this is a good thing in the winter. You will see many cars (mostly suvs, as their owners seem to get way too confident in the snow) during snowfalls that have slid off the road into them. With barrier cables in the center of the median, the car would get stuck in the median, out of traffic's way, and unable to cross into oncoming traffic.

They have the small, concrete-barrier medians in Illinois. I saw a car only a few hundred feet ahead of me fishtail and slam into the barrier, only to flip over on the snowbank along the barrier. The car came back into traffic skidding on it's roof. This seems a whole lot less safe to me than the large median.

It also wouldn't kill our state to build some decent rest areas.

Wisconsin's freeway system isn't too bad. It's also toll free :)

I do wish that they would put the barrier cables up along the entire freeway system. Usually you only see them in areas where they had many people crossing the median (U.S. 41 between Fond du Lac and Lomira, U.S. 43 south of Port Washington).

Cable barriers are extremely dangerous to motorcyclists. Britain was a big proponent of cable barriers until someone in Scotland got sliced in half by the cables after falling off a motorcycle at high speed. They call it "cheesecutters." I personally prefer metal barriers, which strikes a nice balance between absorbing impact and safety for motorcyclists.

Also I noticed that there's a huge gap in the pavement between lanes. I guess Wisconsin has such cold winters that the gaps will get bigger. Americans need a new technique for paving roads, the current lane-by-lane system isn't working quite well in colder states.

Cable barriers are extremely dangerous to motorcyclists. Britain was a big proponent of cable barriers until someone in Scotland got sliced in half by the cables after falling off a motorcycle at high speed. They call it "cheesecutters." I personally prefer metal barriers, which strikes a nice balance between absorbing impact and safety for motorcyclists.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah I suppose that might be a problem.


Also I noticed that there's a huge gap in the pavement between lanes. I guess Wisconsin has such cold winters that the gaps will get bigger. Americans need a new technique for paving roads, the current lane-by-lane system isn't working quite well in colder states.

The problem is how badly it screws up traffic to close both lanes at the same time. I couldn't imagine say, U.S. 41 going to two lanes. Many of our freeways are going to concrete though, so that might withstand the freezing temps better.

Here's some random shots I took the other day while driving from my home near Milwaukee to Minocqua, WI (very Northern part of the state).

[snip]

Wisconsin's freeway system isn't too bad. It's also toll free :)

I do wish that they would put the barrier cables up along the entire freeway system. Usually you only see them in areas where they had many people crossing the median (U.S. 41 between Fond du Lac and Lomira, U.S. 43 south of Port Washington).

As far as the large center median, this is a good thing in the winter. You will see many cars (mostly suvs, as their owners seem to get way too confident in the snow) during snowfalls that have slid off the road into them. With barrier cables in the center of the median, the car would get stuck in the median, out of traffic's way, and unable to cross into oncoming traffic.

They have the small, concrete-barrier medians in Illinois. I saw a car only a few hundred feet ahead of me fishtail and slam into the barrier, only to flip over on the snowbank along the barrier. The car came back into traffic skidding on it's roof. This seems a whole lot less safe to me than the large median.

It also wouldn't kill our state to build some decent rest areas.
Interestingly, only the parts of that trip between Stevens Point and Wausau (the last three images) and perhaps somewhere in metro Milwaukee (not pictured) were on actual interstates.

:shocked:

OTOH, US 41 (the first four images) will become an 'interstate' in a few years, when the needed upgrades are completed. WisDOT currently has no plans to try to add US 10 (images 5 and 6, at Fremont and Weyauwega, WI, respectively) to the I-system.

It is very interesting that with recent and ongoing upgrades, it is now shorter and faster (by about 10-15 minutes) to use US 45/41/45/10 (via Oshkosh) between the Zoo interchange in Milwaukee and I-39/US 10 in Stevens Point than it is to use the all-interstate routing via Madison (the current US 45 upgrade work closure between Winneconne and Winchester notwithstanding) - and word-of-mouth on that is fast spreading in the metro Milwaukee and Chicagoland areas - weekend northwoods vacationer traffic on that route is mushrooming.

BTW, those little 'ticks' on the pavement on I-39 are used by the Wisconsin State Patrol for speed limit enforcement, but ISTR that they sold off their airplanes a few years ago.

:nuts:

Mike

US 41 should become I-41 next year, with signs of I-41 being installed in 2009.

US 41 should become I-41 next year, with signs of I-41 being installed in 2009.
To date I have heard nothing on what its number will be, except that WisDOT submitted '41', '55', '57' and a 3di for I-94 to AASHTO a couple of years ago. My pick would be '57', in that it best fits in with the existing nationwide numbering system. '57' would also allow the I-route to someday continue past Green Bay, perhaps along US 2 to I-75 at Saint Igance, MI, without otherwise disrupting highway numbering in Michigan.

As part of that, I would also reroute US 41 between Milwaukee and Green Bay to replace 'WI 57'.

Mike

I think I-41 fits better, the I-43 is to it's east, and I-39 southwest.

Not to mention that the route is already 'the 41' - I-41 is what it will be, the others (other than the 3di for I-94) would mean large amount of renumbering existing interstates.

Seeing as I-43 does a similar route and to the east, I-57 doesn't fit the system at all, as it would make I-43 look nearly as bad as I-99 numbering wise.

As it's busier than I-43, giving it a 3di number (I-x94 or I-x43) would seem odd, though the I-94 spur is just about bearable if there wasn't the perfect number in I-41. The number of the route doesn't change with I-41, just that it's an interstate and has different colour shields now and 41 fits perfectly between 39 and 43.

As for an extension of I-41 along US2 in Michigan, what's wrong with an extension of I-43, or even just having it as I-98 (and project it across WI to I-94)

I knew 10 wasn't an Interstate, but I didn't know 41 wasn't. Hmm. It's gonna be wierd if it switches numbers. What do they need to do to make it an interstate?

I actually live North of Milwaukee, each freeway I drove on is pictured.

Does anyone else think that 41 over the lake in Oshkosh should be redone? Take some of that land out (I assume it was reclaimed or whatever that's called) and build a nice, good looking bridge. I guess it's not really necessary, but I'd like to see it done.

I knew 10 wasn't an Interstate, but I didn't know 41 wasn't. Hmm. It's gonna be wierd if it switches numbers. What do they need to do to make it an interstate?

I actually live North of Milwaukee, each freeway I drove on is pictured.

Does anyone else think that 41 over the lake in Oshkosh should be redone? Take some of that land out (I assume it was reclaimed or whatever that's called) and build a nice, good looking bridge. I guess it's not really necessary, but I'd like to see it done.
I am thinking of '57' as the ideal I-number for US 41 in that it would be a 'natural' numbering extension from I-57's current end in Chicago, give what is now I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago a decent *north-south* number (it is now moronically signed as 'east/west') and continue through Milwaukeeland via what is now I-894, giving that 'natural' corridor through metro Milwaukee a single major route number. YES, people from up here do often freak out and get lost due to that numbering mess and whenever I have the CB radio turned on, there are out-of-state truck/lorry drivers CONSTANTLY asking for directions to get from the Appleton area to Chicagoland and beyond.

Unlike others, I am not as 'AR' about the sanctity of the interstate numbering plan (there is now a shortage of available 'odd' 2-digit numbers in the east and a surplus in the west) and have ZERO problems with logically extending a route number, even if, on the surface, such a numbering extension would violate that 'sanctity'.

ISTR that the biggest interstate deficiencies on US 41 regard median width, especially around Oshkosh. The substandard interchanges around Fond du Lac have been or are being replaced as I type this. There are also still some low-clearance bridges that have to be addressed. Over the next 5-10 years, WisDOT does have *FIRM* plans for upgrading US 41 to six lanes from WI 26 (interchange 113) in Oshkosh to Breezewood La/Bell St (interchange 129) in Neenah, including 8 lanes across the 'causeway'. That along with major planned US 41 upgrades in the Green Bay area and to US 10 in the Appleton/Neenah area over the same time period (assuming that Doyle and the legislature don't collectively screw up the Transport fund any more than it already is!) will cost as much as $750M.

WisDOT did study replacing that earth fill with a shore-to-shore bridge (mainly to allow blowing snow to go harmlessly under it, solving a vexing winter driving issue with that crossing), but rejected the idea, likely due to cost. Instead, the fill will be doubled in width with the new fill going onto its west side.

Mike

I am thinking of '57' as the ideal I-number for US 41 in that it would be a 'natural' numbering extension from I-57's current end in Chicago, give what is now I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago a decent *north-south* number (it is now moronically signed as 'east/west') and continue through Milwaukeeland via what is now I-894, giving that 'natural' corridor through metro Milwaukee a single major route number. YES, people from up here do often freak out and get lost due to that numbering mess and whenever I have the CB radio turned on, there are out-of-state truck/lorry drivers CONSTANTLY asking for directions to get from the Appleton area to Chicagoland and beyond.

Unlike others, I am not as 'AR' about the sanctity of the interstate numbering plan (there is now a shortage of available 'odd' 2-digit numbers in the east and a surplus in the west) and have ZERO problems with logically extending a route number, even if, on the surface, such a numbering extension would violate that 'sanctity'.

ISTR that the biggest interstate deficiencies on US 41 regard median width, especially around Oshkosh. There are also still some low-clearance bridges that have to be addressed. Over the next 5-10 years, WisDOT does have *FIRM* plans for upgrading US 41 to six lanes from WI 26 (interchange 113) in Oshkosh and Breezewood La/Bell St (interchange 129) in Neenah, including 8 lanes across the 'causeway'. That along with major planned US 41 upgrades in the Green Bay area and to US 10 in the Appleton/Neenah area over the same time period (assuming that Doyle and the legislature don't collectively screw up the Transport fund any more than it already is!) will cost as much as $750M.

WisDOT did study replacing that earth fill with a shore-to-shore bridge (mainly to allow blowing snow to go harmlessly under it, solving a vexing winter driving issue with it), but rejected the idea, likely due to cost. Instead, the fill will be doubled in width with the new fill going onto its west side.

Mike


What is the issue with median width? Too wide, not wide enough?

I can't imagine that making the fill twice as big is cheaper than a friggen bridge. I suppose it's just dumping dirt. Still, it would've been nice to have a great bridge across the lake. Would certainly look better (disrupt the wildlife less too).

Imagine something like this across it:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/jul_12_bridge_south_blog.jpg

Ahh well. They probably would've screwed it up anyway. I'm glad to see that (according to Wikipedia) that section is going to have more lanes. Merging onto it from 10?(I know it's not ten, it's that first exit North of the lake that if you take West connects with ten, the number escapes me) sucks.

What is the issue with median width? Too wide, not wide enough?

I can't imagine that making the fill twice as big is cheaper than a friggen bridge. I suppose it's just dumping dirt. Still, it would've been nice to have a great bridge across the lake. Would certainly look better (disrupt the wildlife less too).

Imagine something like this across it:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/jul_12_bridge_south_blog.jpg

Ahh well. They probably would've screwed it up anyway. I'm glad to see that (according to Wikipedia) that section is going to have more lanes. Merging onto it from 10?(I know it's not ten, it's that first exit North of the lake that if you take West connects with ten, the number escapes me) sucks.
The highway that connects at the north end of that causeway (interchange 120) is US 45 (was previously WI 110). *THAT* is another route numbering MESS that could be solved with US 41 getting an I-route number (think of the US 45 West Bend Spur becoming, let's say, 'I-357'). As part of the planned US 41 upgrades, that interchange will get full-speed flyover ramps for the major turn (US 41 to the south <-> US 45 to the northwest). The current closure on US 45 is to upgrade the section between WI 116 at Winneconne and US 10 at Winchester from two to four lanes, including the cutting down of a hill (needed extensive blasting).

I do very much like how WisDOT included 'TO US 10 WEST' on the BGSs (Big Green Signs) leading up to that interchange.

Mike

The closest we've ever come to a car crash was in Seattle, when we were really horribly cut off there and didn't crash by mere seconds. The guy then cut us off again a few miles later!

Did you report it? Such people shouldn't be driving.

I am thinking of '57' as the ideal I-number for US 41 in that it would be a 'natural' numbering extension from I-57's current end in Chicago, give what is now I-94 between Milwaukee and Chicago a decent *north-south* number (it is now moronically signed as 'east/west') and continue through Milwaukeeland via what is now I-894, giving that 'natural' corridor through metro Milwaukee a single major route number. YES, people from up here do often freak out and get lost due to that numbering mess and whenever I have the CB radio turned on, there are out-of-state truck/lorry drivers CONSTANTLY asking for directions to get from the Appleton area to Chicagoland and beyond.If you are going to renumber I-94 (a good idea if it wasn't for the cost of changing all those signs - I'd have the IN/MI portion as I-92), why not as I-41? You'd also have no problems in having an east-west freeway (Airport Freeway) signed as N-S and S-N at the same time, which strikes me as an odd thing to do when you complain about I-94 being a north south freeway.

Benefits of 41 over 57 -
No need to renumber many miles of freeway (I-94), though you can if you want.
Fits the pattern
Is the number at the moment - the locals can call it the same thing

Benefits of 57 over 41 -
Means that the rule over Interstates and US routes of the same number isn't broken (though it's not a problem, save a few miles in Milwaukee (renumber that bit of US41 to WI341)) - the US route would multiplex (unsigned) with the interstate of the same number - no confusion anyway

In short, there's no real argument for it to not be the first choice of I-41. IL might get a bit annoyed with renumbering US 41 to let I-41 take over I-94, but then they'd get a bit annoyed about having to cosign I-94 and I-57 under your idea, whereas I-41 doesn't have to mean that.

My (extensive) solution:

- Extend I-55 and I-57 through Chicago following the I-94 corridor to Milwaukee
- Renumber I-43 from I-39 to Milwaukee to I-139 or I-239
- Renumber I-43 from Milwaukee to Green Bay to I-57
- Renumber US 41 from Milwaukee to the Canadian border I-55

Doing this, you violate no numbering rules, you reserve both I-41 and I-43 for more substantial interstates, you turn I-55 into a truly coast-to-border highway, and you preserve the distinction of I-55 and I-57 since Illinois; that is, I-55 serving the interior cities, while I-57 is a cutoff between two major cities (Memphis and Chicago, Milwaukee and Green Bay).

What happens with the I-94 east of Milwaukee then? (in Indiana and Michigan). Renumber it to I-96 and renumber the current I-96 to I-98? Seems like a lot of money. Caltrans can't even afford to implement exit numbering.

Uh oh.

Federal Highway Fund About to Run Out of Money (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/06/us/06highway.html?_r=1&hp&oref=login)

WASHINGTON — An important account in the federal Highway Trust Fund will run out of money this month, which could hamper completion of road and bridge construction projects across the country, Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters said on Friday.

And the cause:

The trust fund’s highway account is being rapidly depleted because Americanshave reacted to the high price of gasoline by driving less, Ms. Peters said. The fund gets its money from federal excise taxes on motor fuel: 18.4 cents a gallon on gasoline and 24.4 cents a gallon on diesel. But for months, Americans have been driving fewer miles than before it has been costing them more.

This will not work at all, nor should it.

One possible solution would be to transfer money to the highway account from the separate account that the trust fund maintains to finance mass transit projects. That account is much smaller, though, and in any case, Ms. Peters said such a transfer would merely rob Peter to pay Paul. Lawmakers from large cities that rely on trust-fund aid for their transit systems could be expected to resist a transfer.

The need for replacement infrastructure in the United States is fairly obvious. It is only going to become a more pressing issue as time goes on. Of any .gov spending, I would think that infrastructure would be a priority, as it has positive economic effects across the board. The question then becomes, where do we get the money? We spend more than we take on as tax revenue already, and the indebtedness caused by entitlements + various foreign excursions are mounting. I would hope that funding is secured to complete and build additional capacity in our transportation system, from mass transit to effective highway networks.

Does anyone have information as to what current projects would be affected most by a lack of Highway Fund money?

That happens with low taxes. Europe is the other way around though. Only 15% of government income through automobiles are actually used for roads in the Netherlands. I never understand how the US DOT can finance projects, because the fuel taxes remain low for years, yet labor, material and fuel costs only increased. I am especially worried about special structures like bridges. I doubt if most of them were build in the 1960's to last longer than 50 years. They maybe need to replace or reinforce a lot of highway structures, which costs a lot of money.

Did you report it? Such people shouldn't be driving.

Common in Seattle. Cutting people off, not signaling, passing on the right, cruising on the left, stopping in front of the stop line when waiting for a left turn, etc. All common practices. I want to move to Britain.

The need for replacement infrastructure in the United States is fairly obvious. It is only going to become a more pressing issue as time goes on. Of any .gov spending, I would think that infrastructure would be a priority, as it has positive economic effects across the board. The question then becomes, where do we get the money? We spend more than we take on as tax revenue already, and the indebtedness caused by entitlements + various foreign excursions are mounting. I would hope that funding is secured to complete and build additional capacity in our transportation system, from mass transit to effective highway networks.

Does anyone have information as to what current projects would be affected most by a lack of Highway Fund money?

What can they do about it though? Upping the fuel tax will kill the career of everyone in office (if the masses don't murder them first). Upping any taxes means that the party in power won't be next election.

I just hope the democrats don't bring this up. The republicans are already promising lower taxes. I don't get why it's so hard for everyone to understand that in order to have stuff you have to pay for it.

I think it comes down to having to cut spending in some areas (i.e. entitlements/military), raising taxes on consumption rather than production, private investment of some sorts, and a willingness of users to come back to reality as far as you were saying. A difficult proposition for sure, but it seems like the only way. I do think most people undervalue the most basic elements of our civilization, and in this case that would be efficient transportation networks.

Politicians are of course limited in their actions by their constituents short termed goals, and yes, of course the issue becomes looking beyond our collective nose.

My (extensive) solution:

- Extend I-55 and I-57 through Chicago following the I-94 corridor to Milwaukee
- Renumber I-43 from I-39 to Milwaukee to I-139 or I-239
- Renumber I-43 from Milwaukee to Green Bay to I-57
- Renumber US 41 from Milwaukee to the Canadian border I-55

Doing this, you violate no numbering rules, you reserve both I-41 and I-43 for more substantial interstates, you turn I-55 into a truly coast-to-border highway, and you preserve the distinction of I-55 and I-57 since Illinois; that is, I-55 serving the interior cities, while I-57 is a cutoff between two major cities (Memphis and Chicago, Milwaukee and Green Bay).
I-55 would not be a good number for a northward extension in that it does *NOT* end at I-90/94 (Dan Ryan Expressway) in Chicago - it ends several blocks to the east at Lake Shore Drive. Also, the ramp from the 'inbound' Stevenson Expressway (I-55) to the northbound Dan Ryan (I-90/94) is just one lane. (It's southbound Dan Ryan to southwestbound Stevenson counterpart is two lanes.)

OTOH, I-57's ramp connections with the Dan Ryan (I-94) to the north are about as direct as a direct feed can get.

I consider I-43 to be OK as it is currently numbered. Interestingly, what is now I-43 was originally planned to be I-57 and its original planned routing was to follow WI 57 between Milwaukee and Green Bay. A neat little tidbit here, the State of Wisconsin was able to develop a recreational trail along the west side of WI 57 between Kiel and New Holstein, WI without having to acquire any new right-of-way - the existing two-lane highway sits where the northbound side of that never-built I-57 was to go and the trail is on the state-owned right-of-way that was reserved for its never-built southbound side.

Again, I am not as 'AR' about the sanctity of the I-route numbering system plan as others are - I am perfectly fine with a 'logical' numbering extension, even if it would otherwise deviate from that 'plan'. Also, there is a severe shortage of odd (north-south) two-digit I-route numbers in the eastern USA (there are NONE available above '67') and a huge surplus of unused 'odd' two-digit numbers available in the west. If a new north-south I-route were to be developed in the east, its number will have to 'violate' that plan. Because of that, I would not want to assign an unused number without a good reason and just to put up pretty signs on US 41 in Wisconsin is not, IMHO, a good enough reason.

Available 'odd' two-digit numbers that I am aware of are: 1, 3, 7, 9, 11, 13, 21, 23, 31, 33, 41, 47, 51, 53, 61, 63 and 67.

Mike

Caltrans wants to use I-7 or I-9 for State Route 99 through the San Joaquin Valley. I also read something about renumbering US 101 in California to I-3 or something, but some people in Georgia also want I-3 for a new proposal; the Savannah - Knoxville freeway (named after the 3rd Infantry Division).

Again, I am not as 'AR' about the sanctity of the I-route numbering system plan as others are - I am perfectly fine with a 'logical' numbering extension, even if it would otherwise deviate from that 'plan'. Also, there is a severe shortage of odd (north-south) two-digit I-route numbers in the eastern USA (there are NONE available above '67') and a huge surplus of unused 'odd' two-digit numbers available in the west. If a new north-south I-route were to be developed in the east, its number will have to 'violate' that plan. Because of that, I would not want to assign an unused number without a good reason and just to put up pretty signs on US 41 in Wisconsin is not, IMHO, a good enough reason.

Available 'odd' two-digit numbers that I am aware of are: 1, 3, 7, 9, 11, 13, 21, 23, 31, 33, 41, 47, 51, 53, 61, 63 and 67.I'm not AR about the numbering either, but I-41 is far and away the best number for this route. That it fits the pattern is a bonus!

I know that any new N-S interstate in the east would violate that numbering, however, I-41 gives the least amount of renumbering in the Mid West and is common sense, and you can always recycle numbers used in the North East in the South East (see I-76, I-84, I-86, I-88 in both Eastern and Western varieties...) and dare I say, seeing as I-41 is a fairly short mid-western interstate, the number could be reused in the New England, New York, New Jersey area, or likewise the South, anyway.

I-67 is proposed in four places (three of them fitting the grid and you could use that number in two of them with the two MI ones being able to be sorted with adjusting the route and adding some 3dis) - Montgomery, AL to Tallahassee, FL; Indianapolis, IN up US 31 into MI; US131 in MI and the US219 corridor in PA/NY. Ideally in the East, if you're going to have a new N-S 2di you can think about numbering it 83, 87, 89, 91, 93, 97 if it's in the South (and 97 if it's in New England as well), or you could go for the crazy options - 1, 3, 7, 11, 13, 21, 23, 31, 33 that wouldn't be anywhere near their rightful place (and would allow them to also be built in their right place). The other thing you could go for is multiplexes along E-W routes so the number kind of jumps (eg using I-83 for I-99, having multiplexed along I-76, then again extending I-97 up I-83 would free up that number to be used for the PA proposed I-67 or another route, which is about the only difficult to number proposed N-S interstate at the moment. I-99 could just stay where it is).

I-61 and I-63 have also been proposed in their right places (MS and AL). From what I gather you would give these, and the I-67s a weird number (these are all a lot harder to renumber as an extension of an existing route than I-41 which is silly enough) just so that the East could have the next highest numbers - it's going to be seriously out anyway, why not have a I-2x number rather than an I-6x?

I also don't see why 3di numbers can't be used for new - if in the East things like I-135 in KS, I-380 in IA and so on would be 2dis (I-476 and I-390 NY (which may become part of I-99) being the exceptions of 2di-esque routes in the east with a 3di numbers).

Taking I-41 'out of the equation' isn't much of a problem. I-41 is the clear front runner for the US 41 freeway (or HPC 57). In fact it was nearly written into law that corridor 57 (which was the next number sequentially) would be numbered I-41, but then it got edited and that bit wasn't in the final version.

It's also worth pointing out that there aren't that many proposed N-S interstates in the East (perhaps because they have pretty much all they'd ever need in the NE). And the South is able to reuse numbers used in NY and New England (and either I-83 or I-97 could be eradicated by the other, freeing up a number).

There's not really a problem, you are basically creating one as you hate the idea of I-41 along US41 and want to waste millions of dollars allowing your fantasy renumbering plan. I-41 doesn't remove the possibility of the good things of such a plan happening (ie turning I-94 into an odd 2di), but it doesn't require it either.

^^
I guess that we'll just agree to disagree - I like the number '57' because it is a logical extension of an existing route number and you like '41' because it 'fits the plan'.

Under your numbering idea, how would you (re)route the number '41' through Milwaukee County?

Then, let's say that the 'I-41' signs are posted on I-94 southward from Milwaukee, what would you do with that route number as you approach Chicagoland?

Mike

What happens with the I-94 east of Milwaukee then? (in Indiana and Michigan). Renumber it to I-96 and renumber the current I-96 to I-98? Seems like a lot of money. Caltrans can't even afford to implement exit numbering.

It stays the same. Nothing wrong with multiplexing I-55, I-57 and I-94, though it would be uncommon for such a long distance to have three route numbers. Only confusing part about that would be that exit numbers would be going in the wrong direction for a while.

But wouldn't you have a multiplex of 4 road numbers near downtown Chicago then? I-90 and I-94 are already multiplexed there, let alone to add 2 more Interstate numberrs.

But wouldn't you have a multiplex of 4 road numbers near downtown Chicago then? I-90 and I-94 are already multiplexed there, let alone to add 2 more Interstate numberrs.

True, but I don't think that would be confusing. People tend to follow the route number they're on. Multiplexing is common and people are used to it.

Yeah, multiplexing in the US is much more extensive than compared to Europe. A concurrency of 10 miles is already seen as "long" here. Compare that to the I-80/I-90 overlap between Chicago and Cleveland.

That happens with low taxes. Europe is the other way around though. Only 15% of government income through automobiles are actually used for roads in the Netherlands. I never understand how the US DOT can finance projects, because the fuel taxes remain low for years, yet labor, material and fuel costs only increased. I am especially worried about special structures like bridges. I doubt if most of them were build in the 1960's to last longer than 50 years. They maybe need to replace or reinforce a lot of highway structures, which costs a lot of money.

I really really hope this will not impact the current round of projects under construction. WSDOT is going to have a record number of construction projects in 2009.

For future projects, I bet the I-5 reconstruction will be put off by the lack of funding. WSDOT already said that funds aren't available and the I-5 reconstruction would be around year 2017. I'm guessing that project would be pushed back even more. Btw, I-5 in Seattle was built in the 1960s and is 20 years past its design life.

I-470 in Wheeling, WV:

http://i38.tinypic.com/23vdf2p.jpg

^^
I guess that we'll just agree to disagree - I like the number '57' because it is a logical extension of an existing route number and you like '41' because it 'fits the plan'.no you're over exaggerating the logicalness and ease of extending yours and completely misrepresenting my view. That it fits the plan is a bonus, but it's a free number, with no need to do anything but change US41 signs with I-41 signs (and you could do that fairly gradually). It's still highway 41. No one gets confused as their local freeway (unless they live on I-894) has changed number.

Under your numbering idea, how would you (re)route the number '41' through Milwaukee County?[/quote]WI341 (I believe that's the number for Miller Park Way, though WI175 would also work - that's at the other end of the non-freeway route of US41) for the old route, reroute the 41 to the south and west sides of that freeway box - I've said that at least once already.
Then, let's say that the 'I-41' signs are posted on I-94 southward from Milwaukee, what would you do with that route number as you approach Chicagoland?renumber it - you'd have to change many of the signs in the area anyway. is something like IL410 free? Then again, even if WI signs it, it could end on the border with IL. What's I'm suggesting is that IL isn't forced by WI to do quite a bit of renumbering unless they want to. What would you do with WI-57? The amount of renumbering close parallel routes that would have a clash is about the same in both, but only if IL wants I-41!

I really don't mind I-57 for that route, other than the fact that I-41 is perfect for it, has less problems (most of which are add on problems) and requires a lot less in signage costs.

I-85 and friends,
Lawrenceville GA to Cary NC
Part 1 of ???

Over the past few weeks I've been driving back and forth between my home near Atlanta and a jobsite in Cary, NC. I've taken a whole bunch of photos-- now let's see how I do as far as actually posting them. :)

I've always lived in Atlanta, and my mom's family is from Hampton and Newport News VA, so I've traveled this route countless times over the past nearly-fifty years. Before I started this time I composed a narrative in my head with the intention of illustrating it with photo, maps, and commentary, but what I noticed on this trip didn't always jibe with my narrative. I wonder how it'll turn out...

Also, there are quite a few items that I speculate about instead of making the effort to find out for sure. IMO, speculating is more fun. :lol:

Anyway, this won't be as interesting as (for instance) X-type's trip through Italy and Croatia :ohno:, but I hope you'll enjoy it anyway.

==========================================================

OK, starting close to home, entering I-85 from the CD system at Sugarloaf Parkway, of which I've posted before (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19002932&postcount=885). Note the please-don't-cut-in-front-of-18 wheelers sign: the first step in dealing with stupid drivers is to admit that there's a problem. :bash: There are several of these signs along I-85 in Georgia, but I didn't see any on I-75 south of Atlanta when I drove it this week.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4104/1001348xbz1.jpg

The barrels along the median barrier are for work in progress to extend the HOV lane through the I-85-GA 316 interchange. Barely visible in this photo is construction for an additional lane on the right, presumably to allow termination of the HOV lane in the usual manner: opening the HOV lane to all traffic, then terminating the extra general traffic lane at a new lane-drop exit a mile or so later. There's a pretty long retaining wall going in to make room for the extra lane. It would be nice if the HOV were extended to and beyond the I-985 split, but doing it right would require a pretty major reconstruction of the interchange.
http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.002937,-84.072275&spn=0.010068,0.017681&t=h&z=15

=========================================================

Between I-985 and GA 20, I-85 has three lanes northbound but two southbound. Before the third lane opened there were huge backups on I-85 from traffic exiting at GA 20 to access the enormous Mall of Georgia and the sprawling commercial area surrounding it. Originally the plan was to add a lane to I-85 in both directions, but, as I pointed out at a meeting of our MPO, adding a southbound lane would've created a bottleneck at I-985 where none existed, in direct contradiction of the adopted policy of attempting to resolve bottlenecks rather than making them worse.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6415/1001349xqf5.jpg

==========================================================

Here's a surprise: I got off of I-85 at the GA 20 exit to meet a coworker and pick up plans for our project and found this. The reflectors aren't shining in the afternoon sun-- they're lighted. At the time, there was a short in the white lights on the right, causing them to flash erratically-- I took three photos, but in one the white lights weren't on. To my surprise, the short has since been fixed. Ironically, I was so mesmerized by the novelty of the lights that I took the sharp turn at the end of the ramp way too fast. Oops! :nuts:
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1050/1001352xal7.jpg

The I-85-GA 20 interchange was rebuilt around 2000 from a diamond to a four-loop with CD's on I-85. Sadly, construction of the southbound 85 to eastbound 20 loop erased the quaint ruins of an old mill and the old bridge that once carried GA 20 over the creek. Progress marches on, I guess, but the ramp is barely used. I wish the old mill was there instead of the ramp. In fact, I still feel guilty about it-- I was probably the only civilian who knew in advance how useless that ramp would be, but I didn't make time in my busy schedule to raise hell about it as I did on so many other issues back in the day.
http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.057068,-83.993998&spn=0.010062,0.017681&t=h&z=15

=========================================================

Except for a few bifurcations, I-85 in Georgia north of Atlanta is just like this: 2x2 with a 60 foot open grassed median. Unusually, it was built all at once rather than in phases, opening in 1965 or so. That would be because there was no parallel old road per se-- this was an entirely new corridor.
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6121/1001293xjw1.jpg

Egg cutters are being installed on the entire length of I-85 where an open median still exists. These are different from the others I've seen in that...

1. There's a hefty concrete foundation about three feet (1 m) wide. Embedded into the foundation are tubular galvanized metal sleeves about a foot (30 cm) long, with four rebar studs welded to the sides and protruding downward. After the foundation is poured, the posts are inserted into the sleeves. Since I observed this while driving by at 70 mph, I don't know how thick the foundation is or whether the rebar studs are surrounded by concrete or simply driven into the dirt. I guess the idea behind the sleeves is that damaged posts can be easily removed and replaced, but that assumes that the foundation wasn't damaged as well.

2. There's an extra top strand of cable much higher than the others. Surely this extra strand presents a great hazard to motorcyclists. :ohno:

3. While the other egg cutters I've seen have the eyes staggered on each side of each post, these have all of the eyes on one side, and the posts themselves are staggered to each side of the desired plane of the cables. This causes the posts to appear to be more erratically spaced than they actually are. Between this and the difficulty of properly aligning the embedded sleeves before and during concrete placement, the posts end up unevenly spaced and out of plumb, presenting a rather crappy appearance.

=========================================================

At overcrossing bridges, the existing W beam guardrails are being removed and replaced by new ones in line with the egg cutters. I guess the designers expect vehicles to contact the cable rail, then slide neatly along it and make a seamless transition to the W beam guardrail. Gee, I dunno. To me it would've made more sense to just run the egg cutters without interruption and leave the W beam guardrails in place.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9916/1001357xqv7.jpg

==========================================================

The previous photo was taken at a non-interchange bridge. This and all of the others are original equipment, but all of the interchange bridges have been replaced in this decade by new structures providing (mostly) a three lane roadway on the bridge and large side clearances beneath, as shown here.
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9854/1001356xfv0.jpg

This is the opposite of what was done on I-75 in southern Georgia (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18893759&postcount=813), where the original interchange bridges were retained and most of the non-interchange bridges replaced. WTF? The same thing has been done on some mid '60's interstates in Georgia, but not others, and AFAIK nowhere as completely as on this stretch of I-85.

=========================================================

Perhaps the most interesting thing about this section of 2x2 interstate is what you don't see. This section has been on the books for widening to 2x3 for a long time, and was even among the projects to be funded by former Governor Barnes' ill-fated $8 billion bond program in 2002. The egg cutter installation isn't cripplingly expensive, but it's not the kind of thing you'd build if you expected to tear it out anytime soon. Either the 2x3 widening is dead for a while, or perhaps the widening is to take place to the outboard of the existing lanes instead of in the median, which seems unlikely since (a) it's never been done before, and (b) it would require replacement of the non-interchange bridges in order to retain a standard median width and align the added lanes with the old.

==========================================================

Much-patched concrete pavement at a bifurcation. All of this segment of I-85 was originally built of concrete, but various segments were overlaid with asphalt starting many years ago. The surviving concrete pavement looks horrible but rides surprisingly smoothly.
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1271/1001358xvu4.jpg

Georgia's interstate bifurcations tend to be several miles long and quite wide, as shown here. The key aspect is that they are usually placed in such a way that no roadway-- interchange or not-- needs to cross over the extra-wide median. In this case a local road passes under the interstate; since two bridges for I-85 over this road would've been required anyway, there's little if any additional expense incurred, so the opportunity was taken to provide a long bifurcation. There are exceptions-- Georgia became less reluctant to bridge overwide medians as standards increased in the '70's, and there are some shorter and narrower bifurcations where needed to fit the topography. Still, this is different from what some other states do, as you'll see in my next post.

Here's some random shots I took the other day while driving from my home near Milwaukee to Minocqua, WI (very Northern part of the state).

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF0700.jpg
I'm not sure what those lines are for.


Those lines are for measuring speed form the air, you'll see the lines spaced out every 1/8, 1/4, or 1/2 mile, for a few miles so that an observer in the air can "count" how many you pass in say a set time period and get your speed. (or count how long it takes you to pass form one to the other)

Usually near a sign that says "speed checked by aircraft" or somesuch.

^^ Yeah, this method constitutes a speed trap in many states and is prohibited there. In California it is prohibited as well, but one reporter doing a "ride along" in a helicopter stated it is used there contrary to its own legislature :nuts:

^^ Hehe I didn't know that :) I saw these while driving on Highway 401 here in Ontario a month ago and by looking at the odometer noticed that they are spaced exactly 500 m apart, but didn't know that they are used for speed measurement from the air :nuts:

I actually like aerial speed enforcement and prefer it to radar-based enforcement, since you actually have a human accuser that you can face in court. The evidence is much more legally solid as well. You never know if the radar or laser is just being weird that day; it's a little more difficult to say that the stopwatch wasn't working properly.

Besides, according to an article I read on Ohio (a state known for its aggressive state police) aerial enforcement, they're much more prone to ticket people for unsafe driving, such as cutting drivers off and tailgating, to just simple excess speed in the clear. They say that looking at the big picture, it makes more sense to do that than just going after whoever's going over 65 mph.

Interesting sign. It was in the news yesterday in the Netherlands that over 2/3rd of the truck accidents were caused by car drivers.
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4104/1001348xbz1.jpg

^^ Washington state likes to make such interesting signs :) Also, there are plenty of similar signs that read "Fender bender? Drive to the shoulder" or "Fender bender? Drive across the bridge to the shoulder" encouraging people not to block motorway lanes because of a minor accident.

This sign is from Indiana but is very similar to that used in Washington:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/almikul/SMUkF8MCuJI/AAAAAAAAAD4/2E1SHlw-13Q/fender_bender.jpg

I found myself putting more room between myself and trucks after seeing this sign, out of prudence and decency rather than fear of being pulled over.

There are a lot of non-English speakers around here, but surely anyone can understand the green arrow and "OK."

OT: Thanks for the replies-- I was hoping for more, but that post was pretty impenetrable. I just edited it for readability-- let me know (by PM, so as not to clutter the thread) what you think.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1050/1001352xal7.jpgSeems a better solution to me than ordinary big lights. I wouldn't use it in the day-time though.

Seems a better solution to me than ordinary big lights. I wouldn't use it in the day-time though.

Seems like overkill to me. A standard curve warning sign with a speed advisory tab and chevron-type signs on the curve itself should've been sufficient. Maybe rumble strips, too, if there's that much concern. And a crash barrier to prevent overspeeding vehicles from going into the GA 20 roadway.

The only other place I remember seeing this treatment was at three modified single point interchanges on GA 141. I'm too lazy to post a pic, but here's the Google Map link for the southernmost one (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=33.923171,-84.28109&spn=0.002519,0.00442&t=h&z=17); the arrows on the map are very helpful in seeing what's going on there.The intersections are efficient, but confusing, and are located under large bridges so they're dark all of the time. When the left turn arrows came on, so did lights in the pavement showing which way to go. It was quite a show, actually. The lights were green at first, but were later changed to white.

The lights were hard to maintain and IIRC no longer work (I'll check next time I'm there), but in the couple of years that they lasted I think they trained enough motorists so that almost anyone who doesn't know what to do there can fake it by imitating someone who does.

Seems like overkill to me.

In fact I'll agree with you here, it's just that some countries fully light all their exits, so I think this is better (more discrete, which is your point after all) than ordinary big lights on poles.

In fact I'll agree with you here, it's just that some countries fully light all their exits, so I think this is better (more discrete, which is your point after all) than ordinary big lights on poles.

True, but the problem here is that the ramp is long and straight but with a surprise sharp curve at the end. I don't think lighting alone is either necessary or sufficient to address the problem. I'm also wondering whether there was a bad accident here that prompted the installation of this unusual treatment.

OT: Don't ask me why, but a few days ago I was reviewing the old thread and discovered that that I never answered this post (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19186504&postcount=1026) about chain link fenced bridge rails and their anti-suicide/homicide aspects.
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4383/85316140sd7.jpg

Better late than never: A few years ago in Atlanta there was a spate of people threatening suicide by jumping off of freeway bridges. IIRC nobody died or even actually jumped, but the ensuing traffic jams were horrific. So for a couple of years there was a program to fit anti-suicide barriers on freeway bridges, especially in and near downtown. Though there are many locations that never got them, there hasn't been another jumper in quite some time.

Plus, every few years somebody throws a heavy object off a bridge and kills someone, though this tends to happen more in rural areas where this type of barrier is rarely used.

To me, the strange thing about all of this is that there's enough of a concern to address the problem sporadically, but not consistently-- other types of barriers are still being used in some cases.

Ok, thanks for the answer. :D

In fact I'll agree with you here, it's just that some countries fully light all their exits, so I think this is better (more discrete, which is your point after all) than ordinary big lights on poles.

If these things actually light up, then they probably are overkill, but if they are just passive reflectors, I think they should ideally be installed on all roads, although I personally think they are needed on dark 2-lane roads and not on motorways. In Israel many such roads have reflectors along the outer edges (and sometimes in the middle as well), and it's great.

In Ontario they sometimes put blue reflectors like this on tight curves on provincial 2-lane highways, but not commonly. A few weeks ago I drove on a bunch of country roads near Lake Ontario while coming from a beach, and some roads were pretty bad - while turning left I only knew that there was a road approximately to the left of me, but couldn't see anything at all (it was completely dark) until my car was fully turned with its headlights facing the intersecting road.

^ Yeah, you must be quite slow and careful on most 2-lane roads at night.

^ Yeah, you must be quite slow and careful on most 2-lane roads at night.

A contact of mine at Georgia DOT told me that, overall, reflectors don't improve safety because they make it easier to drive too fast for conditions. But I like them anyway, as do most motorists.

Reflectors are standard on practically every road in Washington. I can't think of a road off the top of my head that doesn't have reflectors.

I thought there was a problem with snowplows tearing them out of the pavement? You almost never see the reflectors in Wisconsin.

Aren't they called "Botts dotts" or something? You see them everywhere in urban California.

^ Botts' dots aren't reflective, they aren't lights.

I noticed this freeway in St. Louis, the SR-364, which carries 48.000 vehicles a day, but has an insane 12 lanes! Why the hell is that?
(this picture shows the 10-lane section).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/MO364FromAmiotDrive.JPG/800px-MO364FromAmiotDrive.JPG

OT: Don't ask me why, but a few days ago I was reviewing the old thread and discovered that that I never answered this post about chain link fenced bridge rails and their anti-suicide/homicide aspects.


You'll see these fences more and more in the Netherlands since "stonethrowing" has become so popular here by some sick youth. :ohno:

@Jeroen: I thought the situation improved; I haven't heard of any incident for a few months now. But yes, it is sick. btw, I also saw these fences on a viaduct on the 128, in Massachusetts, near exit 31B :)
@Chris: maybe the rush hours on that road are very bad :dunno:

I noticed this freeway in St. Louis, the SR-364, which carries 48.000 vehicles a day, but has an insane 12 lanes! Why the hell is that?
(this picture shows the 10-lane section).


Because... roads can be useful, but sometimes their function is to serve as tokens of political power and cultural subjugation. Not unlike nuclear weapons, actually. This particular road, IIRC, was the subject of long and fierce debate, running, as it did, through a large park. Unusually, the debate was settled by a referendum. The voters of the area decided to extend a middle finger to the environment and its defenders, and the road planners took the opportunity to belabor the point by making the road ridiculously wide. No doubt you also noticed that MO 364 feeds a simple four-loop interchange at I-270-- by building such a huge road feeding such a primitive interchange, the local powers that be may be able to force construction of a really huge interchange, too. And this in a metro area that's barely growing at all, at least in population and economic terms. In consumption of land, well, that's a different matter.

Heh. I'm being cute and way too inflammatory, but I've seen this type of dynamic in action before, and some of our Texan forumers have essentially said that Texas does this as a matter of course.

I thought there was a problem with snowplows tearing them out of the pavement? You almost never see the reflectors in Wisconsin.

In Washington State, many of the roads in higher elevations have reflectors placed in crevices so they aren't scraped off by snowplows. Speaking of reflectors, here are some pics of the different reflectors used in the United States.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2790821839_f5ed69ee74.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1205/560044313_15db3b96af.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/515882476_2546f3b993.jpg?v=0
Standard raised reflectors. Commonly used in states where snowplows scraping them off are not a problem. Blue denotes a fire hydrants is nearby. Red means wrong way, yellow denotes the median and white is for lane markings.

----

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2279/1564522941_ebe20887e4.jpg
In some states such as California or Washington, botts dots are used to replace paint markings. These non-reflective dots often have reflectors interlaced in between.

----

For roads that see snowplows over them, raised pavement markers do no good as they will be scraped off. There are two alternatives I have seen. One is to place the reflector inside a crevice or scraped out hole where snowplow blades wont touch it. Another is a special reflector where metal "ribs" protect the reflector allowing the snowplow blade to pass over safely.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YUdY70I6ykk/RqVZgJs3_aI/AAAAAAAAAMw/9uKH8rRK3Qc/fourth+leg+-+reflector+test+1.JPG
http://static.flickr.com/48/124886788_e1951f7be5_o.jpg


Sorry if this was a long post but I find reflectors rather interesting!

In California, botts dots are the thing of the past. New highways don't have them, and probably never will. They are in the same category as the dotted guide signs on Californian motorways - still exist but will be replaced with modern reflective paint as they age.

Aren't they called "Botts dotts" or something? You see them everywhere in urban California.

^ Botts' dots aren't reflective, they aren't lights.

Botts dots are neither reflective nor lighted. They are simply colored plastic 'dots' that are aimed at providing a vibration when you run over them. The reflectors are just called plastic reflectors. The British call it cats'-eyes.

I thought there was a problem with snowplows tearing them out of the pavement? You almost never see the reflectors in Wisconsin.

Yeah snowplows are a problem. After the winter in Washington, I see probably 20% of Bots Dots torn off.

In California, botts dots are the thing of the past. New highways don't have them, and probably never will. They are in the same category as the dotted guide signs on Californian motorways - still exist but will be replaced with modern reflective paint as they age.

Same with Washington. Every new section of freeway is replaced with highly-reflective profiled plastic markings for the white dashed lines. However, in between those white dashed lines, there will be one plastic reflector. The engineer I talked to said that the profiled plastic markings are twice as expensive as Bots Dots, but last more than twice as long and offer more reflection/visibility.

For roads that see snowplows over them, raised pavement markers do no good as they will be scraped off. There are two alternatives I have seen. One is to place the reflector inside a crevice or scraped out hole where snowplow blades wont touch it. Another is a special reflector where metal "ribs" protect the reflector allowing the snowplow blade to pass over safely.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YUdY70I6ykk/RqVZgJs3_aI/AAAAAAAAAMw/9uKH8rRK3Qc/fourth+leg+-+reflector+test+1.JPG
http://static.flickr.com/48/124886788_e1951f7be5_o.jpg


Sorry if this was a long post but I find reflectors rather interesting!
WisDOT (Wisconsin) made widespread use of this style of reflectors during the 1990s and into the early 2000s, but stopped when they were found to not hold up under normal traffic. They are now experimenting with special high-reflectivity paint.

I would suspect that the life expectancy of ANY special reflectors is very short, indeed, in any state where tungsten-carbide tire studs are legal (they are *ILLEGAL* here in Wisconsin), too.

Mike

In Alaska they do this:
http://i38.tinypic.com/18c840.jpg
And you really feel it, I can tell you!

Not only Alaska does that. Many states have it.

Any current significant freeway projects of note in the US?

I know one of about 15 mi or so is opening in just a few days in the Salt Lake City metro. Any others?

Any current significant freeway projects of note in the US?

I know one of about 15 mi or so is opening in just a few days in the Salt Lake City metro. Any others?

You are referring to the Legacy Parkway, north of Salt Lake City. Not sure it can be classified as a freeway, but it will be limited access, 4-lanes total, and a 55-mph speed. (Instead of 65 on I-15).

http://www.udot.utah.gov/legacy/overview_history.php

Any current significant freeway projects of note in the US?

I know one of about 15 mi or so is opening in just a few days in the Salt Lake City metro. Any others?

Major works are being done to I-405 in Washington. Recently a tunnel was removed to make space for additional lanes. Then about a 15 mile stretch of I-405 will gain additional lanes. Then there is a new bridge also being built to carry the extra lanes, and that is also part of the I-90/I-405 intechange improvement project. Also, there will be a new ramp configuration from I-405 to SR520. A new overpass is also going over I-405 in Bellevue. Recently, a major repaving and HOV direct access ramp project was completed in Kirkland (around milepost 15-20).

Finally, I-405 through Bellevue will be a test project for quieter pavement studies.

An engineer told me that WSDOT is going to have a record-breaking 2009 construction season.

You may be wondering why there are so many projects and this is the reason: (photos by Frasier Crane on the Bellevue Development Thread). This is the City of Bellevue with I-405 in the background.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/PeopleCore/downtownbellevueairshot_edited-1.jpg

I believe the I-405 near Bellevue is even more congested than the I-5 in downtown Seattle. Well, the 405 has a major lack of capacity.

From experience, I-5 and I-405 are equally congested during the peak hours. The difference is that due to exits arrangement on I-5 in downtown area, you can accelerate from from 0 to 100 km/h and then run into a stalled traffic 300 metres ahead. It might be quite dangerous. In this sense, I-405 has more predictable traffic jams :lol:

House votes $8B relief for highway trust fund
By JIM ABRAMS, Associated Press Writer
Thu Sep 11, 5:07 PM ET

Congress on Thursday sent President Bush an $8 billion rescue package for the federal highway trust fund. The infusion comes as the trust fund, which relies on declining revenues from the federal gas tax, verges on going broke, threatening road and bridge projects in every state.

The House passed the measure on a 376-29 vote Thursday, a day after the Senate overcame objections from conservative senators and passed it on a voice vote. The legislation transfers $8 billion from the Treasury's general fund to the highway fund, ensuring that ongoing construction projects won't be interrupted.

The White House had previously threatened to veto the measure, calling it "both a gimmick and a dangerous precedent that shifts costs form users to taxpayers at large."

But the administration shifted positions after Transportation Secretary Mary Peters last week revealed that the trust fund would run out of money this month, which would delay payments to states for infrastructure projects and threaten the jobs of hundreds of thousands of construction workers.

"We must act," said Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga. "The trust fund is broke, out of money. Our state and local governments, drivers, construction workers and many others suffer when highway projects are delayed." He and others pointed out that in 1998 the government moved $8 billion from the trust fund, then enjoying a large surplus, to the general fund for deficit reduction, and that this measure returned borrowed money.

It has long been anticipated that the 52-year-old trust fund would move into the red next year, a result of the reluctance of Congress to raise the gas tax, unchanged since 1993 despite inflation and soaring construction costs. The federal fuel tax is 18.4 cents a gallon, or 24.3 cents for diesel.

But the fund, which had a $10 billion surplus just three years ago, has had a rapid change in fiscal fortune as drivers, responding to higher gas prices, have curtailed their driving and switched to more fuel-efficient vehicles.

Peters on Wednesday commended the Senate for its swift action to address the immediate crisis but added in a statement that "Congress must eliminate the billions in wasted spending, thousands of unneeded earmarks and hundreds of conflicting and contradictory special interest programs in order to make sure states don't face this situation again."

Stephen E. Sandherr, chief executive director of the Associated General Contractors of America, expressed relief that Congress had finally acted. "We knew this shortfall was coming and we have made this a priority for the last two years," he said. "The money was set to run out, states were going to be left holding the bag and contractors would have been forced to lay people off."

The few opponents of the bill blamed the current crisis on the 6,300 earmarks — lawmakers' pet projects — worth some $24 billion, included in the $286 billion highway bill Congress passed in 2005. That bill expires next year.

"Part of the reason we are having to steal money from the general fund," said Rep. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., is "we just went hog wild in 2005. We've got to stop this earmarking process."

Democrats in turn thanked the White House and Republicans for letting the stalled bill move forward. "I'm glad the Republicans came to their senses — you can't play politics with 300,000 jobs when we're in a recession," said Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calf., chairman of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works.

The American Road and Transportation Builders Association, using Transportation Department figures, said that without the fix federal highway aid to the states would drop from $35 billion in the fiscal year ending on Sept. 30 to $24 billion in the next fiscal year 2009. It estimated that 379,000 jobs would be lost without congressional action.

According to the estimate, California would lose 32,000 jobs, Texas almost 30,000, New York and Florida 20,000 each and Pennsylvania 19,000.

The House first passed the $8 billion relief bill in July, but Senate Republicans have thwarted several Democratic efforts to move the legislation in the Senate, demanding they first get votes on issues such as the proliferation of earmarks in highway spending bills.

"Much of this bill is not about roads and bridges," said Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C. "It's numerous wasteful earmarks that I'm afraid could end up as part of this $8 billion."

Because highway money is paid out over a number of years, postponement or delay in starting a project can have long-term ramifications. "The urgency of this bill is very critical. We cannot delay it," said Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash. Without the money, she said, next week federal reimbursements for state projects could drop to as little as 64 percent of promised funds.

___

The bill is H.R. 6532.

___

On the Net:

Congress: http://thomas.loc.gov

"The federal fuel tax is 18.4 cents a gallon, or 24.3 cents for diesel."

Absolutely ridiculous...

some pix of i-80 near sacramento, ca that i took in july coming back from tahoe. there's a bunch of other pix of some highways closer to home in the non-interstate thread as well.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/jchernin/DSCN1062.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/jchernin/DSCN1063.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/jchernin/DSCN1070.jpg

That's a pretty wide freeway. Doesn't look that nice to drive on though :bash:

5 through lanes. Kinda like the Dutch A4, Timon ;)

However, California has a lot of 2x5 (10) lane freeways, but the number of freeways having more (through) lanes than that is very limited.

I'm not talking about that Chris ;) I count more than 5; 8 or sth. Perhaps they aren't through lanes, they are there and they are next to each other.
btw: I have to get used to 2×5, since I live very close to the dutch A2 :D

In the USA, they widen motorways mostly near the junctions with other motorways/highways. It's pretty rare to see a 2x5 motorway running continuously through suburban/urban area.

On the picture above, if you continue driving toward San Francisco, you will soon (~1 km ahead) find yourself on a 2x2 motorway. It's not a big deal since most of traffic exits at CA-99. Prior to this junction, I-80 has 4 lanes in W/B direction.

I was very interested in the LA metropolitan area a while ago, and did some research on it's freeways.

I made a list of the metropolitan area (not as defined by the CSA, but by build up area, so including inland empire, but not the desert area's of SB and RIV county.

This list contains the number of kilometers of a certain road width compared to the total mileage. Exit only or weaving lanes are not counted here, only through lanes. Parallel lanes are accumulated, but only if they're through lanes, there aren't many of them in LA (there should be more though).

2x2 = 82 km / 1384km
2x3 = 304 km / 1384km
2x4 = 291km / 1384km
2x5 = 586km / 1384km
2x6 = 110km / 1384km
2x7 = 14km / 1384km
2x8 = 2km / 1384km

http://images.chron.com/photos/2008/09/12/13006210/600xPopupGallery.jpg

http://images.chron.com/photos/2008/09/12/13006210/600xPopupGallery.jpg

Wow it looks bad.
But when thousands of people moving every year to hurricane prone areas it will only get worse.
I don't get why people migrate to the low lying areas of the Gulf.

On the picture above, if you continue driving toward San Francisco, you will soon (~1 km ahead) find yourself on a 2x2 motorway. It's not a big deal since most of traffic exits at CA-99. Prior to this junction, I-80 has 4 lanes in W/B direction.

im afraid ur mistaken. unless i misunderstand u.

the freeway (thats i-80) never gets smaller than 2x3 (thats three thru lanes in each direction) between sacramento and san francisco, and its mostly four. Its doesnt get smaller than three lanes in the other direction (eastbound) until after auburn!

i just drove it so im sure of this fact (from tahoe). i also just checked on google maps.

Dann 1113. The biggest bits of Interstate construction that I know of going on right now are: I 99 around State College in PA. (this will eventually extend to I 86 at Corning NY by upgrading US 15.) I 22 in MI/AL the conversion of US 78 to Interstate between Memphis and Birmingham( almost complete). The conversion of NY 17 to I 86 in New York State.

im afraid ur mistaken. unless i misunderstand u.

Yeah, I was wrong on this one. And I drove there as recently as 2 months ago :ohno: My everyday routine for 3+ years was US-50.

http://images.chron.com/photos/2008/09/12/13006210/600xPopupGallery.jpg

*sigh* there goes our tax dollars...:ohno:

Hey check out this project.

I-5 - Boeing Access Road to King/Snohomish County Line Pavement Repair

Project Status: August 2008

We have begun design work.
Construction will begin in early 2009 and will be complete by the end of the year.
Drivers should expect between eight and 14 weekend closures in which one direction of I-5 will be reduced to just two lanes of traffic. At times only one lane will be open.
We're also planning on at least 100 overnight closures with one direction of I-5 reduced to one or two lanes of traffic.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/EDB776BB-2EC6-4258-AF57-6C08E90E62C8/0/i5BoeingToKingSnohomishLine.gif

The pavement on I-5 in King County is more than 40 years old, twice its planned design life. Crews will replace deteriorating concrete panels in both directions and in the express lanes.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/66F83AA3-3047-486D-98CC-EFEB149EC7FE/0/I5pavement1510.jpg

Heavy truck traffic has resulted in extensive cracking.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/321F6BE4-177E-4CFC-9CAB-213C9991E78F/0/I5pavement2510.jpg

Crews will also repave the NE 50th St. on-ramp to southbound I-5.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/4ED50D38-560A-481C-BD40-BED094B25BFF/0/I5pavement3510.jpg

Keep in mind though, this project is for 'emergency repairs,' meaning that it's not the entire roadway that is being replaced. It's just the worst of the worst that is being replaced and will act as a 'long-term temporary' solution before the I-5 reconstruction. Don't ask me when, I doubt that even god knows when that will be. For those of you wondering, the pavement is 9-inch thick Portland Cement Concrete. The pavement is so bad right now it looks and feels like driving on cobblestone. Almost like this:

http://www.walkingboston.com/images/Cobblestone3.jpg

^^
Two words:

'Studded tires'

:ohno:

Mike

Any current significant freeway projects of note in the US?

I know one of about 15 mi or so is opening in just a few days in the Salt Lake City metro. Any others?

In Detroit, MDOT is just of over half finished with the Ambassador Bridge Gateway. The bridge carries most of the surface trade between the US and Canada and did not have direct freeway access to I-75 for trucks which clogged local streets. So the state is spending $200 million to build the new interchange, and rebuild nearby parts of 75 and 96. Work should be complete in the fall of 2009.

Project homepage
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9621_11008_45614---,00.html


Before
http://t-concepts.net/Projects/AmbassadorBr2.JPG

After
http://chrisschnurr.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/plan.gif

The Detroit Free Press recently did an update on the project with a number construction pics

Trucks line up to haul away dirt, part of a continuous loop of big rigs removing materials from the massive construction site at the Ambassador Bridge Gateway project

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=C4&Dato=20080915&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=809120806&Ref=PH&Item=1&MaxW=600&MaxH=450&border=0&Quality=100

This pylon will help support the cable-stayed pedestrian overpass at Bagley in southwest Detroit

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=C4&Dato=20080915&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=809120806&Ref=PH&Item=8&MaxW=600&MaxH=450&border=0&Quality=100

The Ambassador Bridge looms in the left behind a skyscape of construction cranes and roads and bridges in development

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=C4&Dato=20080915&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=809120806&Ref=PH&Item=9&MaxW=600&MaxH=450&border=0&Quality=100

Tim Keener, 43, of Madison Heights works on steel girders supporting what will be a ramp from southbound I-75 to the new Ambassador Bridge plaza when it reopens in fall 2009

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=C4&Dato=20080915&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=809120806&Ref=PH&Item=12&MaxW=600&MaxH=450&border=0&Quality=100

Expanded polystyrene foam is widely used as a lightweight replacement for unstable soils. Because it's lighter than dirt and gravel, it puts less pressure on retaining walls, and its density makes it stronger than it looks

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=C4&Dato=20080915&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=809120806&Ref=PH&Item=14&MaxW=600&MaxH=450&border=0&Quality=100

These piers ultimately will support a ramp from the Ambassador Bridge plaza to southbound I-75.

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=C4&Dato=20080915&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=809120806&Ref=PH&Item=17&MaxW=600&MaxH=450&border=0&Quality=100

^^
Two words:

'Studded tires'

:ohno:

Mike

No self-respecting road authority would leave the pavement the same for 40 years on a busy freeway. Even concrete doesn't last that long.

Urbanlover, any word on what Ontario MTO is gonna do about Huron Church Road from the bridge to the 401? I know throughout the years, we've heard from several Windsor ppl that are sick of the stop and go truck traffic that's making their city's pollution and traffic so bad.

Why did it take them so long? I also wonder why border crossings with Mexico are so unconnected.

Hey check out this project.

I-5 - Boeing Access Road to King/Snohomish County Line Pavement Repair

Project Status: August 2008

We have begun design work.
Construction will begin in early 2009 and will be complete by the end of the year.
Drivers should expect between eight and 14 weekend closures in which one direction of I-5 will be reduced to just two lanes of traffic. At times only one lane will be open.
We're also planning on at least 100 overnight closures with one direction of I-5 reduced to one or two lanes of traffic.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/EDB776BB-2EC6-4258-AF57-6C08E90E62C8/0/i5BoeingToKingSnohomishLine.gif

The pavement on I-5 in King County is more than 40 years old, twice its planned design life. Crews will replace deteriorating concrete panels in both directions and in the express lanes.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/66F83AA3-3047-486D-98CC-EFEB149EC7FE/0/I5pavement1510.jpg

Heavy truck traffic has resulted in extensive cracking.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/321F6BE4-177E-4CFC-9CAB-213C9991E78F/0/I5pavement2510.jpg

Crews will also repave the NE 50th St. on-ramp to southbound I-5.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/4ED50D38-560A-481C-BD40-BED094B25BFF/0/I5pavement3510.jpg

Keep in mind though, this project is for 'emergency repairs,' meaning that it's not the entire roadway that is being replaced. It's just the worst of the worst that is being replaced and will act as a 'long-term temporary' solution before the I-5 reconstruction. Don't ask me when, I doubt that even god knows when that will be. For those of you wondering, the pavement is 9-inch thick Portland Cement Concrete. The pavement is so bad right now it looks and feels like driving on cobblestone. Almost like this:

http://www.walkingboston.com/images/Cobblestone3.jpg

"long-term temporary"

Only in Seattle!

@Urbanlover

Those are some sweet looking bridge piers!

MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (AP) -- The new Interstate 35W bridge is open in Minneapolis, a little more than a year after the last one collapsed into the Mississippi River.

A procession of vehicles led by state troopers, emergency vehicles and state highway trucks led motorists across the bridge in both directions shortly after 5 a.m. Thursday.

Traffic was heavy as a mix of cars, motorcycles, trucks and buses started streaming across the bridge. Vehicles moved slowly at first, but then picked up speed.

Many vehicles honked their horns as they drove across and a few motorists waved American flags.

The $234 million bridge was completed on budget and more than three months ahead of the December 24 deadline. That means the contractors -- led by the team of Flatiron Construction Corp. of Longmont, Colorado, and Manson Construction Co. of Seattle, Washington -- should get a bonus close to the contract maximum of $27 million, though the actual amount hasn't been determined.

That's fast :eek:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Saint_Anthony_%2835W%29_Bridge_opening_2008-09-18.JPG/800px-Saint_Anthony_%2835W%29_Bridge_opening_2008-09-18.JPG

Hopefully this one will hold better than the last one :D

I noticed this freeway in St. Louis, the SR-364, which carries 48.000 vehicles a day, but has an insane 12 lanes! Why the hell is that?
(this picture shows the 10-lane section).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/MO364FromAmiotDrive.JPG/800px-MO364FromAmiotDrive.JPG

It serves a rapidly growing suburban area and that picture is taken where SR 364 merges with SR 94.

U.S. 31 upgrades get under way
Upgrades in Kokomo and South Bend will be backbone of area's development, Daniels says

By Dan McFeely
dan.mcfeely@indystar.com

KOKOMO, Ind. -- Two key segments of the $1 billion upgrade of U.S. 31 had their groundbreakings Wednesday, marking the start of a South Bend-to-Indianapolis highway project that Gov. Mitch Daniels believes will be the future backbone of an economic development boom for north-central Indiana.

Noting specifically the potential for developing the former Grissom Air Force Base in Peru -- home to Indiana's longest runway at 12,501 feet -- now being marketed as the Grissom Aeroplex, Daniels said the U.S. 31 project will be vital in attracting new business opportunities.

"I don't know yet what it will be," Daniels said, "but I know this highway is going to help economic development flourish and make Northern Indiana even more attractive to businesses."

The former Air Force base, just north of Kokomo, is now controlled by the Miami County Economic Development Authority, which markets it as a potential industrial park and air facility with 170,000 square feet of hangar space and a nearby 360-acre park for industrial use.

Standing in a cornfield a few miles east of Kokomo, Daniels helped turn the first official spades of dirt for the $345 million Kokomo bypass -- actually, the city's second bypass -- a 14-mile interstate-quality highway that will replace the current bypass built in 1952.

Earlier in the day, Daniels did the same thing in South Bend, where the northern tier of the upgrade also got under way.

The final link -- a stretch of U.S. 31 that rolls through Westfield and Carmel -- is not as far along in the process, but officials hope to have environmental studies completed by the end of the year.

Dennis Faulkenberg, executive director of the U.S. 31 Coalition, believes Hoosier drivers will be able to cruise from Indy to South Bend with no stoplights and little congestion by 2017.

That's good news for motorists who have long dreaded the congestion of "stoplight city."

"It's awful. The stopping and starting, stopping and starting . . . then when you get it going again, boom, you have to stop again," said 46-year-old truck driver Tony Tharp, who was hauling plastic from Elkhart to Kentucky on Wednesday afternoon when he stopped at a fast-food restaurant for a break.

"I think this new highway will save us about 30 minutes of fighting through this mess," he said.

State officials are not sure exactly how much time will be saved, as traffic patterns change dramatically in Kokomo, thanks to major factories that have shift changes coinciding with rush hour.

James Bunch, 41, grew up in Kokomo and, like most locals, he knows when to avoid the highway: "Six to 7 a.m., the noon lunch hour, the 2 p.m. shift changes and 5 to 6 p.m.," when local drivers flood the bypass and mingle with semis and statewide traffic.

"The stoplights are not in sync at all," said Bunch, who works at a roadside flag and sign store on the northern edge of the city. "Sometimes you have to sit through five light changes."

While the news of a new bypass is good for motorists, it might not be so good for fast-food restaurants and other businesses that have thrived on the state traffic for years.

"I think a lot of these places are going to miss that traffic," Bunch said.

But Kokomo Mayor Greg Goodnight thinks smart planning can prevent too many businesses from suffering.

Wednesday's groundbreaking took place less than three miles from the current U.S. 31, along a county road that will be the focal point of the first part of the new project. HIS Constructors has been hired to build a two-span bridge that will carry local traffic over the new bypass.

Work will begin by mid-October, according to Terry Morgan, president of the firm.

Between now and 2013, the Indiana Department of Transportation will let 10 more contracts to complete the project, which will be paid for by Daniels' Major Moves money, proceeds from the lease of the Indiana Toll Road.

However I hardly can believe that there are really large congestion problems on the US 31, aren't they thinking of making it an Interstate Highway? Maybe extending it into Michigan to Benton Harbor off the top of my head.

However I hardly can believe that there are really large congestion problems on the US 31, aren't they thinking of making it an Interstate Highway? Maybe extending it into Michigan to Benton Harbor off the top of my head.

U.S. 31 already is up to interstate highway standards from U.S. 20 south of South Bend to I-94, where it becomes I-196.

U.S. 31 does have congestion issues in Carmel and Westfield (because of the high population growth and development in the area) and Kokomo (because of all the stoplights).

Only the portions of U.S. 31 where it passes through populated areas in Indiana will be up to interstate highway standards. The improvements will mean that there will be no stoplights on U.S. 31 from I-465 to all the way to Indiana-Michigan state line.

However I hardly can believe that there are really large congestion problems on the US 31, aren't they thinking of making it an Interstate Highway? Maybe extending it into Michigan to Benton Harbor off the top of my head.
There has been some chatter about it being added to the I-system, but nothing official that I have heard of. It won't even be all freeway for at least 10-15 years and likely much longer.

The problem with the cross-country non-interstate four lane highways in Indiana (ie, US 31, US 30, US 41/IN 63, US 24, etc), is that for so long, Indiana has so been completely STARVED of funding for road upgrades that that they are basically a minimal four lanes with all of the intersections intact. For example, US 30 is STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOP the whole way between Chicagoland (I-65 or IN 49) and Fort Wayne with signalized intersections every 10 km or so on average, even though it carries fairly heavy big-rig truck traffic - and it has only a couple of interchanges (one is a cloverleaf at US 31).

In pretty much any other state, US 30 and 31 (and possibly US 41/IN 63) would have been built to full interstate standards, if not being signed as full interstates, 30-40 years ago.

This is likely better for the Non-Interstate thread.

Mike

There has been some chatter about it being added to the I-system, but nothing official that I have heard of. It won't even be all freeway for at least 10-15 years and likely longer.

The problem with the cross-country non-interstate four lane highways in Indiana (ie, US 31, US 30, US 41/IN 63, US 24, etc), is that for so long, Indiana has so been completely STARVED of funding for road upgrades that that they are basically a minimal four lanes with all of the intersections intact. For example, US 30 is STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOP the whole way between Chicagoland and Fort Wayne with signalized intersections every 10 km or so on average, even though it carries fairly heavy big-rig truck traffic - and it has only a couple of interchanges (one is a cloverleaf at US 31).

In pretty much any other state, US 30 and 31 (and possibly US 41/IN 63) would have been built to full interstate standards, if not being signed as full interstates, 30-40 years ago.

This is likely better for the Non-Interstate thread.

Mike


Those routes you listed are all four lane divided highways with interchanges at major crossings. There was a proposal to convert all of U.S. 31 from Indianapolis to Grand Rapids to a freeway and call it I-67 back in the 1960s but the feds axed it which is also why U.S. 30 and U.S. 24 aren't up to interstate highway standards. Plus, Indiana only has 6 million people and having 3 new interstates would give the state a disproportionate amount of interstates.

With Major Moves, U.S. 24 from Lafayette to east of Fort Wayne will be a four lane divided highway with a few interchanges, U.S. 31 will be a freeway in populated areas in Indiana, and nearly 70 miles of the 140 mile Interstate 69 extension from Indianapolis to Evansville will be built.

err US 31 does get to Benton Harbour - as a freeway from South Bend too. There's the short (2 miles?) gap between the end of that (one for the unfinished highways thread), and I-196 that needs plugging. I believe the corridor has been proposed as I-67 (another well placed gap in the numbers), and will go from Indianapolis to somewhere in MI, perhaps replace I-196 and go up the US131 freeway north of Grand Rapids?

I encourage people discussing the NAFTA superhighway a rail way issue, to please dig deeper. The Security and Prosperity Partnership agreement put into play by Bush in 2005 leads us down a narrow path that we can never turn around once we head down it. The first red flags are that the SPP was never voted on by congress or the parliament. Yes this might help will congested roads, but you have to look at the bigger picture. One once built they will effectively be able to now by-pass our union ran dock yards and ship FDP into Mexico via Mexican ports. The drivers will not be American they will be Mexican, they customs they go through will be Mexican smartpods built by our tax dollars here in the states. The drivers will fall under NAFTA regulated driving standards and not U.S. Dept of Road Safety laws. They highways will be tolled out and privatized to foreign and domestic investors and the current one in Texas is leased our for the next 50 years the the Spanish firm Cintra/Zachary. They land layout will be seized through eminent domain, these are cattle ranchers,farmers and everyday people. This will hurt small communities that depends on truck drivers to come through their small towns and create growth. The Mexican truck drivers will have a Citra Pass or EZ pass which is a RFID based ID that will allow for quick passages through customs, this will lead to increased money laundering, smuggling drugs and people. European Union was introduced as a steal trade ideology by think tank groups, later to develop into expansion of trade to merging communities and laws into a group and now a Euro currency and a EU Law. The NAU is not a conspiracy as many would have you believe it is very real, and backed by both parties McCain and Obama. You say not so, The Council on Foreign Relations has laid out plans and research papers to help drive global think tanks to slowly give up our sovereignty in the name of greater good, I can provide pdf. files of speeches if asked. You ask how does Obama apply to this, when asked at a speech in Nebraska he acted like he was oblivious to the NAFTA superhighway and the NAU, Fact: Michelle Obama is a active member of the CFR, Obama himself has spoken their on several occasions. McCain received illegal contributions from the Rothschilds during his campaign running, Rothschild whom are a foreign interest and a branch of many organizations hold investments in the NAFTA superhighway, i.e. JP Morgan, which has been in bed with the org for centuries. I could go on more about this aspect and provide proof, but I want to stick to this topic and not get side tracked. Kansas 3 Millions tax dollar for a smartport for Mexican custom officials, Laredo, TX drug gangs fighting for territory because this city is the bloodline for major trafficking, Laredo is one of the first major cities with the roads being built as we speak. Once this is done we will have our land seized, taxed on our roads, and lose our jobs. This is all in the name of security and prosperity giving you false illusion of democracy. Their is no difference in Republican or Democrat. Please write me back let me know what you think alexduncan72@hotmail.com also sign my petition http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-eminent-domain-for-profit

That's fast :eek:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Saint_Anthony_%2835W%29_Bridge_opening_2008-09-18.JPG/800px-Saint_Anthony_%2835W%29_Bridge_opening_2008-09-18.JPG

The concrete looks really rough. I'm not sure why that's the case with most American concrete. We just can't seem to make it smooth like Germany can we?..

We just can't seem to make it smooth like Germany can we?..

There is no point.

The concrete looks really rough. I'm not sure why that's the case with most American concrete. We just can't seem to make it smooth like Germany can we?..
It won't collapse and kill ppl like the last bridge did, and that's good enough for me.

This is Tom958, posting from my laptop. Not that anyone is terribly interested in why I haven't been posting, but I'm on the road again. It'll take four more posts to finish what I have in mind for "I-85 and Friends," then there will be another post about NC 49 and US 64 from Charlotte to Chapel Hill. But wait-- there's more.

Two days ago I drove from Durham, NC to Warner Robins, GA, along the most direct route: US 1, I-20 (looping through downtown Columbia, SC via SC 277, I-126 and I-26), GA 80, 16, 22 and 49, I-75, and US 129/GA 247. It'll take forever to post my photos once I get back to the ATL, but in the meantime you may be interested in the I-20-520 interchange (http://www.dot.state.ga.us/informationcenter/activeprojects/Interstates/I20Interchange/Pages/default.aspx) outside Augusta, which I took some photos of.

I hope to be back again soon. :)

There is no point.

Well it's aesthetic. That's the point. American highways in general are nowhere near aesthetic. Our country is all about function over quality, which is kind of disappointing because other countries can have both function AND quality. I hope this changes.

I hope this changes.

Get ready to pay $ 5 - 6 per gallon then... I doubt if many Americans like that idea.

^^No they won't :D They should visit the Europe more often. My American friends were shocked when they heared we pay about $8.50 a gallon in NL :lol:

I'm pretty sure groves are cut into concrete to channel water. Concrete is also laid down with joints, thus the harsher look. Asphalt, on the other hand, is porous and usually laid on top, and is flexible enough to be laid down continuously, making for a smoother looking road.

I'm pretty sure groves are cut into concrete to channel water. Concrete is also laid down with joints, thus the harsher look. Asphalt, on the other hand, is porous and usually laid on top, and is flexible enough to be laid down continuously, making for a smoother looking road.

The grooves are also to reduce hydro(aqua)planing during wet weather. I don't mind them being there one bit.

Get ready to pay $ 5 - 6 per gallon then... I doubt if many Americans like that idea.

Americans are so spoiled it's embarassing...I'm an American btw...:lol:

I'm pretty sure groves are cut into concrete to channel water. Concrete is also laid down with joints, thus the harsher look. Asphalt, on the other hand, is porous and usually laid on top, and is flexible enough to be laid down continuously, making for a smoother looking road.

No i'm not talking about the grooves. I'm sure Germany has grooves in their concrete too, but American concrete is uneven as a whole.

lol

I-85 and friends,
Lawrenceville GA to Cary NC
Part 2, southern SC

Orphaned SC sign at the last interchange in GA. This sign was placed in the early '80's when SC 11 was opened. Since then, virtually all other SC interstate signage has been renovated or replaced-- including three more signs between here and the state line-- but this one was forgotten. Note the button copy and the centered exit tab.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3703/1001360xqd9.jpg
=========================================================

Entering SC, crossing Lake Hartwell on the Ernest Vandiver Bridge. The bridge was built by SC, but was named after a governor of Georgia who hailed from nearby Lavonia. Note the lack of shoulders, backward-facing pedestrian rails (?) and thrie-beam supplemental guardrail. The original bridge guardrail is of the same concrete post-and-lintel type you'll see on most of the bridges over the freeway.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7170/1001507sx0.jpg
=========================================================

Actually, most of the original interstate bridges in SC have had shoulders added; these are dated 2002 IIRC. This is definitely a first-generation interstate. The median is narrow (36 feet is my guess), and I think the grades are steeper-- my cruise control had a harder time keeping to the set speed.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4189/1001508ru3.jpg

Also, note the W-beam guardrails. In 1965 or so, there was a revolution in guardrail practice in the US. Post spacing was halved from ten feet (3m) to five, blocking was added between the posts and the rail, and a buried end or Texas twist was introduced for the end facing traffic (or, occasionally on ends facing away from traffic.:nuts:). This happened to be the time at which my roadgeekiness first awakened-- I was seven years old. :) On one of my family's many trips to Virginia, I started noticing the differences in practice between the various states. Among the things I noticed was that SC used wooden posts for its guardrails while Georgia used steel. But now virtually all the guardrail posts in SC are steel, which means that the old wooden ones were removed and replaced at some point.
==========================================================

:soapbox:

Ever wonder why I-85 in northern Georgia is where it is? As I wrote in one of my I-85/GA 316 posts, the split between I-85 and GA 316 actually has 316 continuing straight and I-85 peeling off to the left as though the 316 route to or toward Athens was favored at the time (1959). One could've made a strong case for routing I-85 through or at least nearer to Athens, especially
considering the decades of carnage that plagued the routes between Atlanta and Athens (in addition to normal traffic, hordes of Georgia Bulldog football fans converge on Athens on game days.) The situation between Atlanta and Athens was worsened by Georgia's unwillingness to commit to a single primary route between the two cities, dividing its efforts between US 29 and US 78. As it happened, the two routes were finished almost simultaneously in the late '90's, but neither is even close to being a full freeway-- US 78 in southern Gwinnett is a cruel joke, and the last time I took the new-terrain GA 316 to Athens, there were 15 traffic lights-- there are surely more now.

OTOH, a case could've been made for routing I-85 along US 23 and US 123 through Gainesville, Toccoa and Clemson. In fact, somewhere in my life's travels I saw a USCGS map of metro Atlanta dated 1962 that showed the proposed I-85 running where I-985 is now, and what is now I-985 was completed as GA 365 only a couple of years after I-85, and to full Interstate standards as though it had already been designed as an Interstate. Besides that, there's an elderly freeway segment of US 123 between Clemson and Greenville that may have been intended as a possible segment of I-85, though heavy game-day traffic surely made the segment viable on its own.

A knowledgable Georgia journalist wrote a column asserting that I-85 was routed as it is at the behest of good ol' Governor Vandiver, who owned land near Lavonia. I have my doubts about that, though. To me it looks as though the route of I-85 in SC was chosen very early on, and it points straight at Lavonia.

Whether or not politics influenced the route, once a decision was made it was acted on with great speed. Most interstates were built in segments over a number of years, but the last stretch of I-85 in northern Georgia was built all at once, opening in 1965 or so. In fairness, that's surely partly because there's no coherent "old road" to divert traffic to.

IMO, it would've been best to run I-85 more along the 316 corridor to Winder, then jog northeastward to the current alignment northwest of Jefferson, which would've made it attractive to build a 20 mile (30 km) freeway spur to Athens and still provided a decent connection to Gainesville via US 129.

Have a look-- http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.191358,-83.597717&spn=0.645211,1.131592&z=9 -- and see what you think.
==========================================================

Typical condition of this section. There are egg cutters here and
throughout the Carolinas-- Georgia is behind on this, FWIW. the red
building in the background is a fireworks store with a big sign
that says NO SMOKING. No shit. :)
http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/Himg220/scaled.php?server=220&filename=1001509xou3.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
==========================================================

Same compostion, different color palette. :) Here the existing pavement is being overlaid, and the median is being regraded to match the new pavement elevation. The overcrossing bridge is typical for SC-- actually, the guardrail design you see here was used well into the '70's, as I found out on my more recent trip along I-20 in central SC. This particular bridge has the same thrie-beam supplemental guardrail as the Ernest Vandiver Bridge does, though most similar bridges don't. I have no idea how it is decided which bridges should and shouldn't get this treatment.
http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/Himg300/scaled.php?server=300&filename=1001512xyh6.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
==========================================================

Median regrading at a bifurcation. The mismatch is severe enough to
require the use of temporary jersey barriers during construction.

Compared to newer interstates, bifurcations are narrower-- rarely with trees-- but more frequent and more likely to be bridged.
http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg255/scaled.php?server=255&filename=1001515jk2.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
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Four-loop interchange at US 76, http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.574005,-82.711043&spn=0.010035,0.017681&t=k&z=15. I-85 is 2x3 from here to north of Spartanburg. The third lanes begin /end on the left, not at a handy right-side ramp.
http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/Himg221/scaled.php?server=221&filename=1001518mv1.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
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Typical condition a bit further north. The difference in color isn't age or an optical illusion-- the northbound roadway is asphalt, but the southbound is concrete, including the shoulders. Speaking of shoulders, the left shoulders on this stretch are usually narrow, but they vary a lot due to numerous minor bifurcations. If fact, you can see the left shoulder getting wider in this photo.
http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg89/scaled.php?server=89&filename=1001519iu3.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
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One of my favorites: bridge over a bifurcation, showing the narrow shoulder widths. As with most bridges in SC, there's a sign giving the overhead clearance even if it's obviously far in excess of any standard. On this one, though, the clearance is listed as 15'-10" (4.8m). "WTF?" I thought. "That bridge looks a lot higher than that, and the other roadway is a lot closer to the bridge." So after I crossed under the bridge I glanced over at the sign over the other roadway, which said "Clearance 19'-9"! The fricking idiots swapped the signs. :bash:
http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/Himg401/scaled.php?server=401&filename=carywr018xpm9.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
==========================================================

Awesome old bridge guardrail design. You can also clearly see the overhead clearance sign. 17'-0" is desirable, 14'-6" is the minimum. There are quite a few bridges that are less than 14'-6" on I-85 in SC.
http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/Himg212/scaled.php?server=212&filename=1001526xfi7.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
==========================================================

Replacement bridge at SC 81, a main route into Anderson. Where additional capacity is needed on the lesser road, SC replaces the bridge rather than widening it. This one has a higher parapet that's less harrowing for pedestrians than many other designs.
http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg88/scaled.php?server=88&filename=1001522ew7.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480
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OK, that's all for now...

I-264 in Louisville, KY
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/5357146.jpg

I-485 in Charlotte, NC
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/4932929.jpg

I-77/I-485 interchange in Charlotte, NC
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/3938274.jpg

ChrisZwolle, you just saved me some effort. I have two photos of I-485, but these are a lot better.

This one is southbound at the I-85 west interchange, http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=35.247652,-80.967264&spn=0.019907,0.035362&t=k&z=14 . The left shoulders are concrete and are surely intended as future traffic lanes. This 2x3- future 2x4 configuration changes at I-77 to 2x2- future 2x4-- the same (or so it appears to me) overall cross section but with less of it paved initially. This is the oldest part of I-485. Then at NC 24/27, it goes to 2x3 with the same median, which would make it adequate for a future 2x5.
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/4932929.jpg

Finally, check out the current northwestern terminus: http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=35.340343,-80.727131&spn=0.001243,0.002199&t=k&z=18 . Two lanes northbound, five lanes southbound!

Well, Charlotte seems to be a booming town, though the I-485 isn't too busy yet at most parts. It isn't even completed yet (section missing in the NE quadrant).

Charlotte is the largest city on the east coast between Philadelphia and Jacksonville, FL. I Don't think many people know that. Cities like Washington and Baltimore are probably more well-known.

^^And it has a mayor airport, of course :)

Well, Charlotte seems to be a booming town, though the I-485 isn't too busy yet at most parts. It isn't even completed yet (section missing in the NE quadrant).

Charlotte is the largest city on the east coast between Philadelphia and Jacksonville, FL. I Don't think many people know that. Cities like Washington and Baltimore are probably more well-known.

Uh, Charlotte is far from the coast... I think that distinction would go to Norfolk-Virginia Beach.

But Charlotte is definitely booming. BTW, I visited two of our jobsites just south of downtown (or Uptown, as they insist on calling it), one of which was directly adjacent to a light rail station. Despite it being a weekday evening, the light rail line was packed, with numerous standing riders.

Even so, to Atlantans like me and my coworkers, Charlotte seems quite small. There's still little development outside of 485, and the first time I took NC 49 eastward out of Charlotte, I didn't hit single red light until I was several miles outside 485. It was a Sunday afternoon, but still...

One more thing, off topic: My swing down 485 was in order to meet my daughter and her boyfriend one Friday evening at the Promenade shopping center: http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=35.062698,-80.772815&spn=0.002494,0.004399&t=k&z=17 . There are interior roads with parking on both sides, and a plaza/quadrangle with much grass and large, brick-paved roundabouts at the corners. Very small townish and pedestrian-friendly. There was a blues band playing in the quad, and many people chillin' out on the grass listening and hanging out. The shops around the quad are smallish except for-- Home Depot! As you can see from the satellite view, there's a corridor from the quad into the Home Depot that enables it to masquerade as the town hardware store.

I was very impressed-- AFAIK, there's nothing like it in Atlanta. And there are many other impressively laid out retail centers in NC.

I love LA freeways and would love to see some photos! Thanks in advance!

Wasn't I-85 in Georgia routed to be equidistant between Gainesville and Athens?

Wasn't I-85 in Georgia routed to be equidistant between Gainesville and Athens?

Yes, it was. The article to which I referred ("The Road Less Traveled" by Bill Shipp-- I couldn't find it on Google) said that in order to justify the current routing, the width of the corridor addressed in the economic impact study was simply made wide enough to encompass both Athens and Gainesville.

Myself, I'm OK with the routeing from Jefferson northward-- it's direct and it brought a major highway to an area of the state that didn't have one before. But it would've been better, IMO, if I-85 would've been routed more toward Athens in order to make a short freeway connection to Athens possible. Had that been done, many crashes would have been prevented.

I guess I could research what actually happened, but you may recall this from the intro I wrote on page 36; "Also, there are quite a few items that I speculate about instead of making the effort to find out for sure. IMO, speculating is more fun." Well, this is one of 'em. Besides, I doubt if there's anyone still around who knows what really happened.

EDIT: Last week I took some pics of US 78 in southern Gwinnett County, part of one of the long-neglected Atlanta-Athens corridors. Perhaps I'll post them soon.

I-77/I-485 interchange in Charlotte, NC
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/3938274.jpg

I see pretty road markings :] Nice and wide.

Yes, it was. The article to which I referred ("The Road Less Traveled" by Bill Shipp-- I couldn't find it on Google) said that in order to justify the current routing, the width of the corridor addressed in the economic impact study was simply made wide enough to encompass both Athens and Gainesville.

Myself, I'm OK with the routeing from Jefferson northward-- it's direct and it brought a major highway to an area of the state that didn't have one before. But it would've been better, IMO, if I-85 would've been routed more toward Athens in order to make a short freeway connection to Athens possible. Had that been done, many crashes would have been prevented.

I guess I could research what actually happened, but you may recall this from the intro I wrote on page 36; "Also, there are quite a few items that I speculate about instead of making the effort to find out for sure. IMO, speculating is more fun." Well, this is one of 'em. Besides, I doubt if there's anyone still around who knows what really happened.

EDIT: Last week I took some pics of US 78 in southern Gwinnett County, part of one of the long-neglected Atlanta-Athens corridors. Perhaps I'll post them soon.


COuldn't GDOT just upgrade an existing connector between Athens and Atlanta or Athens and I-85 into a full limited access freeway, similar to how I-185 connects Columbus to I-85, and by extension, Atlanta?

COuldn't GDOT just upgrade an existing connector between Athens and Atlanta or Athens and I-85 into a full limited access freeway, similar to how I-185 connects Columbus to I-85, and by extension, Atlanta?

I'm not sure I understand the question. I-185 is a new terrain highway, as are all Interstates in Georgia (and Indiana, too, right?). Neither US 29 nor US 78 were well-suited to upgrading to freeways. In fact, the relocated US 29, aka GA 316, is also new terrain. Too many little towns in the way for even a proper 2x2 highway, much less a freeway.

Had I-85 been routed differently, a freeway connector far shorter than either US 78 or US 29/GA 316 could've been built. Shorter means cheaper and cheaper often means sooner. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. I called the connector I-785 because a 7 is really easy to draw in Paint. :)

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9238/i85altyg2.png

COuldn't GDOT just upgrade an existing connector between Athens and Atlanta or Athens and I-85 into a full limited access freeway, similar to how I-185 connects Columbus to I-85, and by extension, Atlanta?
GA 316 does what you're describing, and unfortunately if it doesn't get converted into a toll road(the only way there'll be financing to turn it into truly limited access with no traffic lights), then it's gonna remain a 65 mph 4 lane rural(btu becoming much more suburban, hell look at Gwinnett and west Barrow County) divided highway with traffic lights from Athens to Lawrenceville.

^^ And 316 wasn't finished until 1998. :ohno: Time is important, especially when we're talking decades.

1996, actually. GDOT HAD to get 316 finished in time for the Olympics. I can remember being on that road in 1997(and Home Depot/Lowe's had just opened at Epps Bridge/316 and the Athens bypass).

'98? Did I say '98? I meant '96. :nuts:

The Lawrenceville bypass was 1980, though. Twenty years for the first five miles, another sixteen for the rest.

I wish we could move this to the non-Interstate thread...

Dounle post-- arrgh! :bash:

I'm miffed at North Carolina. They've built some pretty impressive interchanges in the last few years, but they use boring old steel plate girders instead of sleek concrete box girders. They're not as brutally hideous as the early Texas stacks, but they could've been a lot better.

Hey, check this out: I-40 at I-540, between Raleigh and Durham, http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=35.873159,-78.831067&spn=0.010154,0.018024&t=k&z=15 . They used exposed hammerheads for the western piers, but recessed ones for the east due to clearance requirements. Would it have just killed 'em to make all the piers look the same? :ohno:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2940/1001588xqq8.jpg

Dounle post-- arrgh! :bash:

I'm miffed at North Carolina. They've built some pretty impressive interchanges in the last few years, but they use boring old steel plate girders instead of sleek concrete box girders. They're not as brutally hideous as the early Texas stacks, but they could've been a lot better.

Hey, check this out: I-40 at I-540, between Raleigh and Durham, http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=35.873159,-78.831067&spn=0.010154,0.018024&t=k&z=15 . They used exposed hammerheads for the western piers, but recessed ones for the east due to clearance requirements. Would it have just killed 'em to make all the piers look the same? :ohno:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2940/1001588xqq8.jpg

Concrete looks bad after a few years too. There has to be a way to cover up the girders with something more aesthetic...

Concrete looks bad after a few years too. There has to be a way to cover up the girders with something more aesthetic...

IMO, nothing beats the aesthetics of a trapezoidal concrete box beam (except the rounded-bottomed ones on I-280 in San Mateo County, CA-- they're almost erotic. :) , but it'd be overkill to do that everywhere) Actually, though this is totally the wrong place to say it, I'm very impressed with the aesthetics of many motorway bridges in Eastern Europe. The designs are often spare (contrasted with, say, the High Five in Dallas), but subtly well executed. A ratty appearance can be averted by painting, as long as repainting is done when needed, and deft use of color is a significantly useful design tool. But the prerequisite is that aesthetics be considered early in the design process. Some jurisdictions do it, others don't, some change their perspective over time, and I've never understood why.

Not that I'm dead-set against steel. Steel has the advantage of being far easier to modify or repair, and not every bridge needs to be a masterpiece. Still, as an Atlantan, I'm glad that Spaghetti Junction is as cool as it it in the same way that Australians are thankful that the authorities didn't cheap out on the Sydney Harbor Bridge.

^^Well if DOT can keep it clean, then I'm all up for it. :] But most still fail at it.

Interstate 440 in Raleigh, NC. This road seems to be relatively new, and has a large amount of lanes, 4 per direction, 5 if all the exit-only lanes are counted. Notice the queues at the exits.
5WAaxJme7Ag

In October of 2007, my wife and I went on a trip to Canada. On the way, we took some photos of I-90. Actually, my wife took all the photos, and some of them are badly out of focus ;)

Here is the link to the album in case hotlinking does not work: I-90 in Washington >> (http://picasaweb.google.com/almikul/I90InWashington#)

The start of our journey
http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5PKuRSnI/AAAAAAAAAE4/yfm_jRqIapA/start.jpg

After driving on 2x1 road for about 220 km (Pullman -> Vantage), we finally jump on I-90. Pictures below are taken on I-90 between Vantage and Ellensburg.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5PVoFw3I/AAAAAAAAAFA/MRz3ypt8ZxY/I-80_Eastern_WA1.jpg

American motorways have unpaved U-turn sections through the grass median, but they are for emergency vehicles only (mostly to catch oncoming speeders)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5Pf-SUBI/AAAAAAAAAFI/DreO7ZI-cmw/I-80_Eastern_WA2.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5PeBlMdI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/-ReXrcvaQ1Y/I-80_Eastern_WA3.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5PcskcfI/AAAAAAAAAFY/MttL26pVSIU/I-80_Eastern_WA4.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5gfCUyAI/AAAAAAAAAFg/fIrcuOLWKlY/I-80_Eastern_WA5.jpg

Finally, we could catch a glimpse of Pacific Coastal Range snow peaks
http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5gUkkHcI/AAAAAAAAAFo/uY6vMG9p6E0/mts1.jpg

This warning was put well in advance of the summit
http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM6FHTdGKI/AAAAAAAAAG4/gzVO1F8dkcw/electr_sign1.jpg

The motorway up to this point was pretty dull with boring scenery, but now it gets a little bit better
http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5gfiQPyI/AAAAAAAAAFw/BAr81_rCqwo/mts2.jpg

Guide signs to tourist destinations have brown background and white letters (like in Germany). The numeration of I-90 starts from the west, so we are roughly 114 km from where I-90 intersects with I-5 (Seattle Zentrum).
http://lh3.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5gvN1i0I/AAAAAAAAAF4/b8MCb9LHJs0/mts3.jpg

Autumn colours go well with road pictures :)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM5gpRgXVI/AAAAAAAAAGA/tt1DL-omEXM/mts4.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM52g5ObXI/AAAAAAAAAGI/5NIneHldHAU/mts5.jpg

We are 111 kms from Seattle :)
http://lh4.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM6FFbY25I/AAAAAAAAAGw/HPiB7ingEpY/distance.jpg

We are at the altitude of ~900 m, so the clouds are hanging pretty low
http://lh4.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM52mC6VsI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/MsN79Yd3ogY/mts6.jpg

Typically, extra-urban stretches of West Coast American motorways are not lit well, but I-90 has quite a few of lighting poles.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM528aG5UI/AAAAAAAAAGY/LGtxnMhU8EQ/mts7.jpg

Badly out of focus :(
http://lh6.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM523CfG7I/AAAAAAAAAGg/kFBhk3Uc52w/mts8.jpg

Generally, I noticed that mountain stretches of American motorways have a greater degree of curvature than their European counterparts. However, the speed limit on I-90 depends only on weather conditions, not on geometrical properties of the motorway.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM52xBS92I/AAAAAAAAAGo/BCGidp0kwCE/mts9.jpg

Now, it's 105 km/h
http://lh3.ggpht.com/almikul/SOM6FMOvVsI/AAAAAAAAAHA/Y4B_vUS2QD0/electr_sign2.jpg

That's all for now. Later, I will post more local pictures of Whitman county in non-Interstate thread.

Nice pics, Alex. Don't blame your wife in case she reads this :D

I don't see pics here, but the album works :)

How long would a trip around the US be if you tried to stay on the Inerstates, as close to either an international border or the sea, and never crossed your own path? I would imagine the route would be something like I-5, I-8, I-10, I-75, I-95, I-90, I-94, I-90, I-5. That would be quite a drive!

you'd take I-75, I-94, I-69, I-96, I-196, I-90 to get closer to the border near Michigan. There would also be some other detours, such as I-505, I-80, I-280, I-680 (or I-880, it's hard to tell), I-580 in the Bay area, and I-405 rather than I-5 in LA.

How long would a trip around the US be if you tried to stay on the Inerstates, as close to either an international border or the sea, and never crossed your own path? I would imagine the route would be something like I-5, I-8, I-10, I-75, I-95, I-90, I-94, I-90, I-5. That would be quite a drive!

A map (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=miami,+fl&daddr=I-95+N+to:I-75+N+to:I-10+W+to:I-610+W+to:I-410+W+to:I-410+N+to:I-8+W+to:I-8+W+to:I-405+N+to:I-405+N+to:I-880+N+to:I-5+N+to:I-94+E+to:I-94+E+to:I-90+E%2FI-94+E+to:I-196+E+to:I-69+E+to:I-80+E%2FI-90+E+to:I-190+N+to:I-90+E+to:I-95+S+to:I-195+W+to:I-495+S%2FI-95+S+to:I-95+S&hl=en&geocode=%3BFTA8jQEdmMo4-w%3BFQlSjwEdWFQu-w%3BFQJ3ywEdxl6a-g%3BFTLuxAEdMBZR-g%3BFQZrvwEdLDEh-g%3BFUp_wQEdohcf-g%3BFcDn9QEdT4dL-Q%3BFbjj8wEdxr8D-Q%3BFZQkBAIdcsTz-A%3BFeKMBwIdNp_w-A%3BFVCaQAId8Jy2-A%3BFV2q2QIdVSG2-A%3BFVirkAId4D_C-g%3BFR7HiwIdpu3B-g%3BFQ7LfgIdSKbG-g%3BFWLFjwIdIK_l-g%3BFSzJjwId9poU-w%3BFVAReQIdS_IH-w%3BFXiWjwIdOMJL-w%3BFZAohgIdDqvD-w%3BFYpKeQIdWOO5-w%3BFeZSZQIdEHyM-w%3BFTq8UAIdYSpr-w%3BFZ42jgEdeLg4-w&mra=dpe&via=1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,11,13,14,16,17,18,19,21,22,23&sll=43.095217,-77.577209&sspn=0.177747,0.30899&ie=UTF8&ll=43.233197,-71.062317&spn=1.41874,2.471924&z=9)

After that complication, that's the closest I could get.

The grand total according to Google Maps: 8,918 mi. (14 352 km)

You miss out some detours, though Google is hard to use for lots of destinations - it sort of stops after a while and doesn't do reroutes.

Here's the route. Bolded bits are missed out on the google route.
I-595 FL
I-75
I-275 FL Go through Tampa Bay area.
I-75
I-10
I-210 LA Go Through Lake St Charles
I-10
I-610 TX
I-10
I-410 TX
I-10
I-8
I-5
I-405 CA
I-5
I-580 CA
I-680 CA
I-280 CA
I-880 CA Detour via San Jose.
I-80
I-505 CA
I-5
I-405 OR Small detour in central Portland.
I-5
I-405 WA
I-90
I-94
I-694 MN
I-94
I-90
I-94
I-196 MI
I-96
I-69
I-75
I-475 MI Detour round Flint.
I-69
I-94
I-75
I-280
I-90
I-190 NY
I-290 NY
I-90
I-490 NY Detour via Rochester.
I-90
I-91
I-93 Detour into VT and NH
I-95
I-495 MA
I-195 MA
I-195 RI Possible to go the long way round between Boston and Providence
I-95
I-695 NY
I-295 NY
I-495 NY
I-278 NY
I-278 NJ Detour via Long and Staten Islands
I-95
I-195 NJ
I-295 NJ
I-295 DE
I-95
I-695 MD
I-97
I-595 MD (unsigned) Detour via Annapolis - if you don't want I-595, then I-695 still is closer
I-95
I-295 VA Detour round Richmond
I-95

In a few years time, you'd have things like I-41/I-43 detour to Green Bay, I-49 detour in LA and also I-805, I-905, I-5 detour in San Diego. Further additions would be when I-69 in TX gets built (as you would then be able to go down it, and then up I-35).

Wow, thanks for the info, guys! That would mean some 9,000 miles worth of travel. I hope to be able to make that trip some day. That must be like seeing every geographical feature present on Earth since it's such a big country.

Generally speaking you might see everything the earth has to offer. The only thing lacking really is rainforest but Florida comes close and if you want to see tundra, I think the Dakotas in winter would suffice. Fjords are more in Canada. Well you'd definitely can see a lot but of course not everything on earth and some things would require detours to see. Im just surprised that if you really rushed you could do it in a week. That amazes me. Of course sleeping and refueling and eating probably would add much to that time.

Generally speaking you might see everything the earth has to offer. The only thing lacking really is rainforest but Florida comes close and if you want to see tundra, I think the Dakotas in winter would suffice. Fjords are more in Canada. Well you'd definitely can see a lot but of course not everything on earth and some things would require detours to see. Im just surprised that if you really rushed you could do it in a week. That amazes me. Of course sleeping and refueling and eating probably would add much to that time.
Wouldn't the Puget Sound area suffice for fjords?

Mike

Wouldn't the Puget Sound area suffice for fjords?

Mike

I don't think Seattle counts. Maybe somewhere in the Cascade mountains, but definitely not Puget Sound.

I don't think Seattle counts. Maybe somewhere in the Cascade mountains, but definitely not Puget Sound.
I would say Straight of Georgia along the "Sea-to-Sky" highway (BC-99) reminds me of fjords a bit.

Maybe something in Maine? They also call some estuaries with low hills in Denmark "fjords".

Huge parking garage on top of I-394 in Minneapolis, MN
http://www.interstate-guide.com/images301/i-394_mn_et_17.jpg

Yikes, ghastly!

I join to the -KwK345- request. Maybe someone have pics from LA?

Well, American :D

Okay here we go:

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images401/i-405_nb_exit_023_02.jpg

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images010/i-010_eb_exit_021_01.jpg

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images701/i-710_nb_exit_004_05.jpg

El Toro Y
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/1867/eltoroyi5i405bv1.jpg

Orange Crush
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/8672/i5ca22ca57jr0.jpg

East LA
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2954/i5i10sr9.jpg

I-110/I-105 interchange
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images101/i-110_nb_exit_014_03t.jpg

Los Angeles:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3457/losangeles0lb.png

To compare: Paris:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6296/paris2cy.png

110 fwy
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/fnee1901/S5030249.jpg

710 fwy
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/409055252_d9c5b0b1a2_b.jpg

110/105 fwys
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/409054940_e8d66c8b0b_b.jpg

looking south along I-110
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/376038747_f387a59cef_o.jpg

http://photos.***************/kcphotos/la/large/la_5140.jpg

Quite some parking spaces:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/202/465843446_d9199e4fef_o.jpg

SR-110
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/179/465850478_c3ca0709f8_o.jpg

SR-110
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3229/2370620500_f69d95f588_o.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/v6izwz.jpg

Yikes, ghastly!

I like the idea, it saves a lot of parking spaces in downtown. It's a nice space usage. It should look nicer than this though.

There are actually three of them on the I-394 near downtown Minneapolis.

They look like this from above:
http://i34.tinypic.com/fo3eo7.jpg

Sure, I don't mind the idea, it was just that both the road as well as the garage in that photo were hideous. :p

I guess, that's US style with infrastructure. Effectiveness is more important than aesthetics.

Nice pics, Chris! It's unbelieveble how big LA actually is, compared to Paris.