Well, Angelinos usually live in detached homes, even the lower-income class, while in Paris and suburbs, you mostly see apartments and massive amounts of social housing flats. Those are virtually non-existent in LA.

^^Actually this counts for most US suburbs that I've seen.

Yeah, the most well known social housing projects are mostly in New York City.

Contrary to popular belief, Los Angels and it's suburbs are among the most densely populated areas in the United States. Most suburban areas are much more dense than any Midwestern or Eastern US suburbs.

Minneapolis suburb:
http://i37.************/2qc2gky.jpg

Los Angeles suburb from the same altitude:
http://i38.************/14ihq4n.jpg

Houston is probably the least densely populated suburbian area in the US :D

Nah Houston is per neighborhood not that bad, the actually buildup area is quite dense, but there's often a lot of wasted unused space in between them, making it quite inefficient land usage. Houston has an extremely large metro for it's population.

If you want to see low density suburbs, you should check east and north of Philadelphia, the westernmost suburbs of New York in New Jersey and around Connecticut.

South of King of Prussia, PA, same altitude as the above 2 pics!
http://i38.************/3500aio.jpg

I like the idea, it saves a lot of parking spaces in downtown. It's a nice space usage. It should look nicer than this though.

There are actually three of them on the I-394 near downtown Minneapolis.

They look like this from above:
http://i34.************/fo3eo7.jpg
The Minnesota Twins' (American League baseball) new stadium (Target Field) is being built where that large surface parking lot is in that image.

It will be an open air baseball-only stadium and is scheduled to be ready for the 2009 season. (How many early and late season games will have to be moved to Miller Park in Milwaukee each year....)

Isn't there a major bus-transit center in one of those parking ramps, too?

Mike

A plan for the Mixmaster
City officials to review, pick DOT design


BY ANDREW LARSON
REPUBLICAN-AMERICAN
WATERBURY — City officials expect to approve a redesign for the Mixmaster this week, as the Department of Transportation prepares to start work on the project, slated for completion almost a half century down the road.
“They’re looking for an answer sooner rather than later,” Alderman Paul Pernerewski Jr. said.
The massive $1.3 billion construction project would alter the geometry of the Route 8 and Interstate 84 interchange, notorious for its cumbersome leftlane entrance and exit ramps.
The reconfiguration would improve safety and bring the interchange in line with national standards, the DOT says.
The mayor’s economic development task force will meet Wednesday at 6 p.m. to vote on which of the DOT’s designs to endorse. The DOT wants input from the city by Friday.
Mayor Michael J. Jarjura will decide whether to forward the task force’s decision directly to the DOT or seek additional input from the Board of Aldermen.
The DOT has presented two viable designs to the task force. One leaves Route 8 on the west side of the Naugatuck River and expands the footprint of the interchange. Instead of Route 8 being stacked on top of Interstate 84, they would intersect on an even plane.
The second option moves Route 8 to the east side of the Naugatuck River, opening up a plot of land the road now occupies for future development.
At this point, the task force seems to favor option two, said Pernerewski, citing development potential on the west side of the river.
Although discussions about the reconfiguration have been taking place for years, some residents feel they haven’t had ample opportunity to provide input.
“The mayor hasn’t asked me to weigh in,” said Larry Depillo, an environmental activist, suggesting the idea of a public forum.
Calling the two proposed plans “ridiculous,” he is concerned about taking properties by eminent domain to the detriment of local business.
“The fact is that the highway, for all practical purposes, can probably be rebuilt and reconfigured in its exact location without having to take additional property,” Depillo said.
The Mixmaster redesign also features improvements to local roads so it will be possible to travel from one side of the city to the other without taking Interstate 84. Work on local roads could begin as early as 2012, far before highway construction begins.
Depillo is concerned that widening local roads will entice drivers to speed through the center of Waterbury, posing a safety hazard. He said he’d rather have traffic on the highway.
The DOT’s proposals do incur costs to the city. The first option would result in $643,331 in lost property tax revenue; the second option $586,513, said Stan McMillen, managing economist for the project.
In both scenarios, more than two dozen city properties would be claimed either in part or in whole.
The first option would minimally disrupt Connecticut Light & Power on Freight Street, take all of Yankee Gas Service Co. on Jackson Street and take 35 percent of Jarjura’s Market on South Main Street. The second option would take 76 percent of Connecticut Light and Power, 70 percent of Yankee Gas Service and 43 percent of Jarjura’s Market.
But the DOT is quick to point out that both options create potential for new development, eventually resulting in gains between $3.6 million and $32.9 million in yearly taxes.
The design the task force seems to favor, option two, is also less costly to the DOT because the current Route 8 would remain intact until the new road is finished, eliminating the need for a temporary access road.
For that reason, Pernerewski said the task force may try to negotiate some benefits to the city.
The city would like to claim the land west of the Naugatuck River sooner than the DOT has proposed, he said, to begin clean up of the site, which might be contaminated.
“The quicker we can get some of that land back under city control ... the sooner development could begin,” Pernerewski said.

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/658/mixmastergr5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

One has to love the beautiful air quality that massive freeway construction brought to L.A.

And even with its relative density compared to other U.S. cities, L.A. wastes so much land compared to Paris.

One has to love the beautiful air quality that massive freeway construction brought to L.A.


It was about time someone brought this myth up.

While I don't want to say LA's automobile way of life has nothing to do with air quality, but the problem is really not only the automobile.

First of all, Particulate and Sulphur Dioxide levels in Los Angeles are not higher than say, Amsterdam, a city you normally don't associate with smog. It's blue skies there nearly all the time. Check out this (http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/table3_13.pdf) list.

Los Angeles is a very large city, and has way more major pollution sources than the automobile alone. LA is a major port city and a trucking center. There are numerous diesel trains and refineries, not to even mention the number of airports.

The amount of smog has decrease enormous since the 1970's, yet the city has grown much bigger since, with a huge increase of automobile usage.
LA's smoggy image is mainly because of the geography and meteorological circumstances. There's a thing called "inversion", which are separate layers in the sky. LA's smog is continuously accumulated below this inversion and because of the mountains, lack of eastern winds and rain it continues to hang above the city. All exhaust from every source can accumulate multiple days below this inversion, coloring the sky brownish. So I wouldn't jump to conclusions too fast by seeing smoggy pics from LA all the time.

Yikes, ghastly!

Well to be fair, they are on the outskirts of DT and light and commuter rail will be extended into the area soon.

^^Then explain to me why, after catalytic converters were made mandatory in the tailpipes of all vehicles, that the air quality improved in L.A.?

Yes, the port contributes to the poor air quality but so do the megafreeways and the autocentric culture it promoted.

All, I'm saying is that it's a little more nuanced than usually said. Same counts for Houston by the way. While that is maybe even more an auto-centric city than LA, it also has huge industries along the Ship Canal.

I think air quality can be improved further with better fuel-efficient cars, or with the newest generation diesel cars. (diesel can easily be an option for most LA commuters). The newest diesel cars are as clean as hybrid gasoline cars and get the same mileage. I'm still waiting for an hybrid-diesel car though. I would love to buy one of those once, I think they can reach like 80 - 85 mpg.

I remember Atlanta to be covered in smog. Some friend of mine over there has astma and has real difficulty with going to town on a so called 'orange day' so to speak.

I've got pictures of 15 miles of I-405 and 20 miles of I-5 :] Anyone want to see?

I've got pictures of 15 miles of I-405 and 20 miles of I-5 :] Anyone want to see?
Show 'em off, mate :)

Many cities in a humid climate have that. The best air quality is usually found in northern coastal cities like Oslo or Helsinki.

Yeah, show them :)

I don't want to start a political thread, but do either presidential candidates have ever mentioned the infrastructure in their campaigning? Just curious.

^^ I've never heard any of them talking about it, but I don't follow it that close.....

I don't want to start a political thread, but do either presidential candidates have ever mentioned the infrastructure in their campaigning? Just curious.
Obama once mentioned the need of repairing the failing infrastructure including roads. No details on that though. McCain considers any such proposals to be pork spendings :lol:

Clearly, democrats are more likely to pay attention to roads improvement. Not that they WILL actually do it, just more likely to do it. Republicans propose to cut taxes further and further, so the fair question would be - where to get money on road projects?

I just glanced at both presidential websites and McCain does not mention transportation while Obama seems to have a plan as far as congestion management is concerned. Obama's approach seems to be to fix what we have (bridges, highways, railroads, etc...) and invest in more mass transit for cities and also more investment in high-speed rail networks while also improve river transportation and port security.

Well, it's time to get the Mass Transit fine. A month or two ago I was in an Atlanta suburb, and the only way to get to Atlanta is by car. In Atlanta there is a mass-transit system (MARTA), but it only runs to the border of the city, and then it stops. Same situation in Dayton and Cincinnati. The two cities are 50-60 miles apart, and both are quite big. The Interstate between them (I-75) is often congested. Still, people prefer to drive, or even worse, to fly. Since I had a horrible ticket, I was 'forced' to take a Delta flight between Cincinnati and Dayton, and I was shocked when I saw that the plane was completely full with people who went shopping or to work. I don't know if there is a train or sth, but regarding the fact that everyone drives or flies, I don't think so. So that's the main problem: the US relies too much on cars and planes. :ohno:

^^
Thats a pretty good summary.
The US has unfortunately invested it's wealth in a living arrangement which has no future in the 21st century

Well, the big problem is that they relied on the low oil prices. Lots of Americans thought they would stay low forever. Now it turns out to be wrong, and here you are. Now they wish they had a good mass-transit system.

^^
Thats a pretty good summary.
The US has unfortunately invested it's wealth in a living arrangement which has no future in the 21st century
Keep in mind, that the early part of our car-centric growth(post WWII until about 1975-1980) was primarily driven on whites wanting to get away from the cities and essentially leave the poor blacks to fend for themselves(or "white flight" as we call it). Granted Europe has a similar situation with suburbs that are ghettoized but those places were built from the ground up with immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East. Both situations were pretty damn sorry, and in this day and age you're finally starting to see the racial boundaries going down in big ways(both in the Americas and Europe). Abandonment begets Poverty, which in turn begets Violence and lack of education/transferrable skills.

Not really.
It was more a flight from 19th / early 20th century industrial city living. Most blacks lived in rural areas when the first waves headed for the suburbs. The 1950's and 60's saw a massive influx of African Americans to the cities who as lower end income earners filled up the void created by the departed working and middle classes in the central areas. Unfortunately the whole suburban experiment is based on a steady supply of cheap fossil fuel. That age is drawing to a close which poses the question as to what is going to happen to the 50+% of Americans who live in the outer suburbs of cities. We are seeing ''energy poverty'' increasing as the lower incomes are now seeing up to 40% of their income go up in energy costs. It won't be long before we see the middle class hamoraging their earnings into just getting to work. A similar situation exists in countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand where car use is endemic.
Europe has it's racially based neighbourhoods too and there was an exodus of the middle classes to new suburbs from the late 70's (somewhat later than the afore mentioned countries). But these suburbs are by and large compact and situated relatively close to urban centres. Because of their compact nature they are also well served by PT. Sprawl hasn't occured in Europe like in the more car centric countries. Even SUV driving Europeans will have easy access to alternative transport when driving becomes too expensive. The same can't be said for most Americans.

I like the Portland urban growth model. It's called smart growth I believe. Concentrating population along light rail lines instead of endless suburbia where public transport never stands a chance.

I think the problem with urban growth in the US was that everyone could affort a suburban house on a nice lot. You nearly have to be a millionaire to own the average house in say, a Dallas suburb in Europe. I mean, what's wrong with decent rowhouses?

I think the westcoast suburbia of even LA is a hell lot better than the nearly rural area's around the large cities on the eastcoast. Did you know the Netherlands and Flanders is even more densely populated on average than Atlanta metro?

However, I don't see the Paris suburbia (sea of rundown flats) or commieblocks as a great way to live. I think it's somewhere in between, more mixed neighborhoods than homogenous suburbs. They try to create that model in the Netherlands.

Atlanta is probably the most extreme example how NOT to create an urban area, in terms of infrastructure and urbanetics. I guess the living quality is very high here though. I wouldn't mind living there, but commuting, no thanks.

Everything within this picture is an urbanized area. It becomes worse, because there's 20 miles of urbanized area south of this picture (the pic is taken looking north).
http://i34.************/j8gvtf.jpg

Another picture. Nearly everything in this picture is semi-rural, urbanized area within the Atlanta metropolitan area. As far as my eyes can see..
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/5/5927847_4ad74194aa_b.jpg

Well, I've been in some of Atlanta suburbs and most people there don't mind driving big distances to get to work. There is a very high living standard over there. So big houses, pools, big gardens, etc. This is also because in the suburbs where I've been, lots of pilotes are living. I remember when I was there five years ago, I saw lots of houses for sale, because Delta fired lots of pilots to cut costs. But yes, the suburbs run as far as you can see, which is not a good thing :ohno:

There's also not a line between where Atlanta ends, and rural areas begin.

For instance, the most eastern urbanized area is over 50km/30 miles away from downtown. The northernmost suburbs are about 55 km / 35 miles away from downtown.

And that for an urbanized area of about 5 million inhabitants. You can fit those easily on an area that's 11 times smaller. (100x100km vs 30x30km), without the place getting that crowded.

However, this is how the cards are dealt. Bad decisions from the past in urbanized areas can hardly be undone without huge investments. It would mean the relocation of millions of people. But we can learn from the mistakes from the past, restricting new urban development to stricter rules about a minimal density.

I like the Portland urban growth model. It's called smart growth I believe. Concentrating population along light rail lines instead of endless suburbia where public transport never stands a chance.
Yeah, Portland relies more heavily on light rail than other West Coast cities. Seattle is catching up too with its metro system.

I think the westcoast suburbia of even LA is a hell lot better than the nearly rural area's around the large cities on the eastcoast. Did you know the Netherlands and Flanders is even more densely populated on average than Atlanta metro?
I can't really compare East coast suburbs with those of West coast, but I can
tell you from my experience (6 years living in Sacramento suburbia) that without a car you cannot do anything there. It gets even so extreme that you cannot access some neighbourhoods other than by car. Where I lived, the closest grocery store was 3 kms away. With car, you need about 5 minutes to get there, and all may seem well. Now, imagine that for whatever reason (other than financial difficulties) petrol becomes unavailable for an extended period of time. People would be screwed. Even if you walk for half-hour to get to the store, you can't possibly buy more than 5-6 kg of groceries and other needed stuff. Of course, it is an extreme example, but it may happen one day due to a natural disaster.

Well, I have to admit I do grocery shopping too with my car, and so do a lot of people from my neighborhood. I'm living in a 4-person household, so I need to buy a lot of stuff at the same time, which I cannot carry with my bike.

However, I see them make stupid policy decision in the Netherlands, like restricting bikes from the shopping streets so you have to carry your stuff all the way to your bike. People switch back to cars for shopping that way, which is not really a good thing.

Well, when you have to buy lots of stuff, it's not very inviting to go by bike. I use my bike a lot for school/work/shopping, and if I don't, I use the train or bus. However, I'm only 16, so I don't have my drivers licence yet. I think I do 160 kms by bike per week in a normal week.

Running about 12 km from Lindley, NY to Tioga, PA, a new four lane section of US 15 (future I-99) opened on Wednesday, 2008-10-01.

See:
http://www.the-leader.com/homepage/x556002023

:dance:

Mike

That closes the last 2-lane gap between Williamsport and the New York State border. Just north of Williamsport, there's still a section missing at freeway standards. Any plans to improve the US 15 between Williamsport and Harrisburg? It's a four-lane highway all the way right now.

That closes the last 2-lane gap between Williamsport and the New York State border. Just north of Williamsport, there's still a section missing at freeway standards. Any plans to improve the US 15 between Williamsport and Harrisburg? It's a four-lane highway all the way right now.

IIRC there was a study underway for a freeway running from Selinsgrove to the end of the PA 147 freeway, but, weirdly, I don't find anything about it or any other studies on PennDOT's website, which is where I would've read about it.

Atlanta sprawl may have high standards of living, but I bet its very boring for many people and ugly as well(strip malls and big box chain stores all over the place as examples).

I-85 and friends,
Lawrenceville GA to Cary NC
Part 3, near Greenville SC
part 1 (page 36) (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=25046836&postcount=719)
part 2 (page 40) (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=25585204&postcount=795)

I forgot to mention--maybe you figured it out: on the previous 2x3 section of I-85, the pavement was completely replaced (that's how the southbound roadway got to be all-concrete :)). On the next, the existing pavement was overlaid, but the bridges were all replaced, allowing provision of a full-width left shoulder throughout. The work was done in the late '80's-early '90's, and the pavement isn't in great shape. There's cracking where the new lanes don't align with the old, as you can see here. Here's an unusual median treatment, with the jersey barriers continuing even as the median becomes very wide.
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/9971/1001530xhn8.jpg

==========================================================

There are at least three bridge guardrail designs used for the bridges over this section: the usual low jersey barrier, the taller concrete pedestrian-friendly design in the next photo, and this rakish-looking metal design. The vertical posts are very slim and are almost invisible when viewed from directly perpendicular.
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/641/1001532xsd0.jpg

==========================================================

Chaotic-looking signs approaching the I-185 interchange, which you see in the background. The signs on the southbound side are simpler, without the horizontal line and the two-signs-in-one look.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4588/1001534xcs2.jpg

The I-185 interchange (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.790123,-82.440677&spn=0.010291,0.018024&t=h&z=15) has a cloverdirectional layout. This layout was popular up until the early '70's since it provides all movements cheaply and with no weaving and has a geometric bias that's useful for skewed crossings. It fell out of favor because it also requires two wrong-side exits or entrances. There were five of these on I-285 in Atlanta and many others elsewhere, but AFAIK this is the first that's been built anywhere for a long time.

OT for this post since I couldn't justify a detour for photos: While we're in the neighborhood, check our the I-185/385/US 276 interchange (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.754589,-82.287555&spn=0.010296,0.018024&t=h&z=15) on the south side of Greenville. Originally this was the US 276 freeway running NW to SE. The connection to the northern/eastern leg of I-385 was added (as was the I-385 designation) in the '80's, then I-185 was scabbed on around 2000 IIRC. The connection of I-185 to I-385 north runs along a massive mountain of fill nearly a mile long.

==========================================================

North of I-185 the full reconstruction continues though two collector-distributor systems, one at US 25 and SC 20 (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.790969,-82.419605&spn=0.009939,0.017681&t=h&z=15), the other at Augusta Road, SC 292 and Mauldin Road (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.7977,-82.375617&spn=0.009938,0.017681&t=h&z=15). There is provision on the right side of each roadway for an eventual 2x4 mainline-- in fact, where there's a jersey barrier between the CD's and the mainline, the lanes are paved but not striped for use, as you see here at US 25.
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/459/1001535xos6.jpg

==========================================================

Entering the second CD system...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7077/1001537xmn4.jpg

...and leaving. The provision for an extra two lanes on the mainline ends just before the end of the CD system. WTF? From here all the way to Green 85 in Spartanburg, it's back to 2x3 and a jersey barrier median with narrow left shoulders.
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9277/1001538xjs5.jpg

==========================================================

The I-385 interchange (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.831876,-82.299485&spn=0.009934,0.017681&t=h&z=15). I-385 used to extend only westward from I-85, ending at a trumpet interchange. It was extended eastward to the US 276 freeway in the '80's IIRC, and this interchange was duly expanded. Unusually, the central spans of the old trumpet bridge over I-85 were used for the ramp from eastbound 385 to northbound 85. New spans were added over the new CD's, built in the same style as the old bridge. As you can see, the center spans are horribly rusted and could collapse at any time could use some paint.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4205/1001540xvz4.jpg

===================================================================

BMW built its much-coveted US plant along I-85 north of Greenville, and in preparation most of the interchanges between Greenville and Spartanburg were rebuilt: There are new bridges, relocated frontage roads, some onbound loop ramps, and this single point interchange (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.87375,-82.220135&spn=0.009929,0.017681&t=h&z=15) at SC 14. A CD northbound and a ramp braid southbound connect this interchange to the airport access road. Note: the Google satellite photo shows the SPUI but not the CD or ramp braid-- they were built later..
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3605/1001326xwf7.jpg

=========================================================

Despite the bridge replacements and provision for extra mainline lanes, the narrow left shoulder remains. Perhaps it will be added if they ever expend this section to 2x4.

The Brockman-McClimon Road on that sign is actually an almost-stack interchange directly serving the BMW plant (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=34.887374,-82.191725&spn=0.009927,0.017681&t=h&z=15). I took photos of the interchange, but they suck-- sorry.
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8814/1001367xyr6.jpg

Yeah, Portland relies more heavily on light rail than other West Coast cities. Seattle is catching up too with its metro system.

Nooo way Mr. Alex, Seattle is DECADES away from catching up. The only light rail planned is from the airport to downtown. A vote is going to go on November about a 36-mile light rail extension to Bellevue and other areas. What does that mean?

If passed: Seattle will have a complete 52-mile light rail system by year 2030.

If not: Seattle won't get anything.

That means that even if it passes, it's going to be a long time. I'm sixteen now in 2008, so add 22 years and I will be 38 years old before I will be able to ride the light rail in Bellevue. If we have Dino Rossi as a governor in November, then chances are I should start saving up for an immigration to the UK.

Nooo way Mr. Alex, Seattle is DECADES away from catching up. The only light rail planned is from the airport to downtown. A vote is going to go on November about a 36-mile light rail extension to Bellevue and other areas. What does that mean?

If passed: Seattle will have a complete 52-mile light rail system by year 2030.

If not: Seattle won't get anything.

That means that even if it passes, it's going to be a long time. I'm sixteen now in 2008, so add 22 years and I will be 38 years old before I will be able to ride the light rail in Bellevue. If we have Dino Rossi as a governor in November, then chances are I should start saving up for an immigration to the UK.
Rossi won last time, and that's all I have to say about that.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8814/1001367xyr6.jpg

I like this one :]

35W sculptures aren't just for looks


Cemstone became the first company in the nation to use a new form of concrete that removes carbon monoxide, nitrous oxides and sulfur dioxide from the atmosphere.

The photocatalytic concrete debuted as a pair of 30-foot sculptures installed in the median of the new Interstate 35W Bridge.

The two sculptures are constructed from a unique concrete that uses ultraviolet sunlight to promote and accelerate oxidation at the surface of the structures. In addition to keeping the sculptures a bright white color, the concrete allows for the conversion of smog-causing gases such as carbon monoxide, nitrous oxides and sulfur dioxide to higher oxidized states. This is the same process used by a catalytic converter in automobiles.

The monuments were designed using the international cartographic symbol for water.

Founded in 1927, Cemstone operates more than 50 ready-mix concrete plants in Minnesota, western Wisconsin, and northern Iowa.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/10/i-35_sculptures.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/10/img_4794_opt.jpg

Nooo way Mr. Alex, Seattle is DECADES away from catching up. The only light rail planned is from the airport to downtown. A vote is going to go on November about a 36-mile light rail extension to Bellevue and other areas.
What about that subway system that now utilises buses (maybe, trains were launched already?). I am a newcomer to Washington state, and I have visited Seattle only ~10 times up to now.

If we have Dino Rossi as a governor in November, then chances are I should start saving up for an immigration to the UK.
Haha, right on, dude! I live in the far east corner of Washington, and my town is quite liberal because it hosts WSU. However, outside of city limits it is all "Dino Rossi" fans. Just by looking at his supporters, you immediately want to vote against him without even knowing who he actually is :lol: I cannot wait to graduate and leave this Jesusland for the coast.

I-105/I-110 in Los Angeles
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q222/sinaloa1943/California/409054940_e8d66c8b0b_b.jpg

Some highway in Kansas (I-35 or I-70 I guess)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q120/JesusESalgado/Estados%20Unidos/Kansasautopista.jpg

Eisenhower Tunnel, I-70, Colorado
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/6941/2005viajetc12eisenhowerhb5.jpg

Charlotte, NC
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9495/charlotteclfseo2.jpg

Oklahoma fun
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4687/61746888825fef514bfs9.jpg

More Oklahoma
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4967/weatherfordoklahomawindqj9.jpg

That part of Oklahoma is as flat as the Netherlands :D

The intersection at LA looks awesome! LA is the capital of car-dependence.

Some pics of the I-85 southbound in Atlanta:
http://i35.************/2vm9ceq.jpg

http://i36.************/9fnp90.jpg

Stadium of the Atlanta Braves, Turner Field:
http://i35.************/2dv91l1.jpg

http://i36.************/2qrzl7q.jpg

http://i36.************/kb934o.jpg

I-105/I-110 in Los Angeles
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q222/sinaloa1943/California/409054940_e8d66c8b0b_b.jpg

Some highway in Kansas (I-35 or I-70 I guess)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q120/JesusESalgado/Estados%20Unidos/Kansasautopista.jpg

Eisenhower Tunnel, I-70, Colorado
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/6941/2005viajetc12eisenhowerhb5.jpg

Charlotte, NC
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9495/charlotteclfseo2.jpg

Oklahoma fun
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4687/61746888825fef514bfs9.jpg

More Oklahoma
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4967/weatherfordoklahomawindqj9.jpg


Is that picture with windwill really the Netherlands? I don't there are any longnose trucks.

That's Oklahoma, I just said it's completely flat, just like the Netherlands :)

^^The Oklahoma one looks amazing. I'd do anything to have Washington freeways look like that. Except the guardrails are missing...

What about that subway system that now utilises buses (maybe, trains were launched already?). I am a newcomer to Washington state, and I have visited Seattle only ~10 times up to now.

There is no subway system in Seattle. What you are talking about is the Seattle Bus Tunnel. It was designed for buses and converted recently for light rail use as well. So you will have light rail and buses running through that tunnel. Then during rush hours on weekdays, 3rd avenue is completely closed off and reserved for public transportation only.

The light rail hasn't yet begun service. The first line that will open is the Seattle to Sea-Tac airport in 2009.

Haha, right on, dude! I live in the far east corner of Washington, and my town is quite liberal because it hosts WSU. However, outside of city limits it is all "Dino Rossi" fans. Just by looking at his supporters, you immediately want to vote against him without even knowing who he actually is :lol: I cannot wait to graduate and leave this Jesusland for the coast.

The majority of the Washington population is a joke. Christine Gregoire brought some of the biggest improvements to our infrastructure, and I hope she will win. Dino Rossi is just going to cancel all the projects and doom our future. Only narrow-minded, self-concerned people will vote for him.

The truck in the passing lane ruined the picture though.

That's Oklahoma, I just said it's completely flat, just like the Netherlands :)
There is a LOT of that 'flat' in the central USA. Much of Illinois, Indiana and parts of Iowa and Ohio are literally pool-table flat, in addition to the western and central plains states.

A case in point, one of the flattest cities in the World (as in lack of variance in land elevations) is Chicago.

At times it is almost freaky to drive through those wide-open, flat rural areas - it can make you forget that the USA is a nation of 305 million people.

Mike

awsome pics ;]
maybe you have photos from roads near ocean or beach ?
it will be great :)
thanks Chris

These 'concrete rivers' could be a really nice highways :nuts:

is there any detailed map of LA highways...

Yeah, the most well known social housing projects are mostly in New York City.

Contrary to popular belief, Los Angels and it's suburbs are among the most densely populated areas in the United States. Most suburban areas are much more dense than any Midwestern or Eastern US suburbs.

Minneapolis suburb:
http://i37.************/2qc2gky.jpg

Los Angeles suburb from the same altitude:
http://i38.************/14ihq4n.jpg

This is true.

A couple of years ago, I went to visit a relative in Rancho Cucamonga, CA, a distant Eastern, desert suburb of LA.

What surprised me about that place is how small rich people's homes were, and how small the lots were that they were built on. They were almost right next to each other. In Ohio, even the middle class homes are built on fairly sizable lots.

What really surprised me though is that each time we went out to the mall, or to any big box store, grocery store, etc. we would often have to drive around to look for parking. In Ohio, this is almost unimaginable, because each business builds such a huge number of parking spaces. The parking spaces here more than anything else contribute to the sprawl.

There were other things too that I noticed, like very little free space/green space around. Almost every little bit of land was built up, even in the suburbs.

Picture Time!

Before I-90:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01528.jpg

Note dropping gas prices:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01529.jpg

Going onto Westbound:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01530.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01531.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01532.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01533.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01535.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01537.jpg

Going on I-405 on-ramp

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01538.jpg

I-405 road work. The concrete is really old and rough so it has been diamond-grounded as a temporary fix before repaving next year.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01539.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01540.jpg

Bellevue and its extreme growth. Note the construction going on in the back. There are sixteen major projects going on right now, including thousands of new homes. New office skyscrapers are also going up and Microsoft has leased a big portion of it. That section of I-405 is becoming a pretty big chokepoint.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01541.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01542.jpg

Through center of Bellevue

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01543.jpg

Past Bellevue. The double white line for the carpool lane is supposed to prevent people cutting from the carpool lane across multiple lanes of traffic to get on SR520.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01544.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01545.jpg

Pedestrian crossing over I-405

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01546.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01547.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01548.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01549.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01550.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01551.jpg

Direct access HOV ramp on I-405 with nicely textured concrete.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01552.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01553.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01554.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01555.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01556.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01557.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01558.jpg

Right before going onto I-5

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01559.jpg

Speed:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01560.jpg

I-5

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01561.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01562.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01563.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01564.jpg

Brand new pavement on I-5 through Everett

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01565.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01566.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01567.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01568.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01569.jpg

Here's one of the first Single-Point-Urban-Interchanges in the state (possibly one of the first in the United States).

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01570.jpg

Past central Everett

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01572.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01573.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01574.jpg

Guardrails

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01575.jpg

More rural section of I-5

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01576.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01577.jpg

After coming back, here's the end of the SR 520 floating bridge.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01578.jpg

Quieter pavement on SR 520

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01579.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01580.jpg

Hope you liked it :] Btw I know my dad tends to drive in the passing lane, but he speeds quite a bit so it's okay.

Picture Time!

Hope you liked it :]

I did. :) Bellevue is really impressive. But I'm really amazed that there are only 2x3 non-HOV lanes.

Nice pics :)

Strange arrows and font:
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20October%20Highway%20Pictures/DSC01559.jpg

LA's Freeways are fucking amazing! Very very beautiful! :)

Nice pics :)

Strange arrows and font:

Yeah, Washington is pretty inconsistent when it comes to standards. There are some vague roadmarkings too where you can't tell the difference between a solid white line and a double white line.

Los Angeles (n): epitome of poor urban planning. Still, the New York City MSA (excluding the Pike County portion that shouldn't be in there anyway) is denser than the Los Angeles MSA.

is there any detailed map of LA highways...

How detailed do you want? Go to randmcnally.com and search for LA maps.

Only in Seattle...makes me sick.

Eyman's latest aims at traffic jams; but will it work?

Story Published: Oct 12, 2008 at 3:10 PM PDT

Story Updated: Oct 12, 2008 at 5:50 PM PDT
By CURT WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer
OLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) - Taking aim at one of modern life's biggest frustrations, initiative promoter Tim Eyman is offering a measure that he claims will smooth out traffic jams, from those poorly timed small-town stoplights to the sea of cars on our biggest freeways.

Perhaps its most appealing bait: Solo drivers tired of being teased by more efficient travelers would get a shot at the car pool lane.

"Everybody has had that experience," Eyman says. "Middle of the day, bumper to bumper traffic, that empty lane sitting right next to you, and saying, 'I paid for that lane! If it were open to everyone, traffic would flow better."'

If it sounds too good to be true, a truckload of critics says you're right. They paint Eyman's latest as a poorly conceived blueprint that will scramble a strapped state budget, spend the whole state's money on a few urban traffic jams, and actually make some commuters' daily drudgery even worse.

With less than a week until absentee ballots are mailed to voters, the "no" campaign says it's steadily picking apart Eyman's sales pitch.

"The problem with Mr. Eyman is, when he's faced with the questioning on this, there's not much gas in the tank," said former state transportation secretary Doug MacDonald, a spokesman for the opposition.

If approved by voters, I-985 goes into effect in December. It would open up car pool lanes for all traffic, except for the "peak" hours of 6 a.m.-9 a.m. and 3 p.m.-6 p.m. on weekdays.

The initiative also would mandate synchronized traffic lights in cities and counties, and push the state to clear up accidents faster.

To pay for these new programs, I-985 would skim a slice of the state sales tax on vehicles, collect any "profit" from tolls, and grab the traffic ticket money from cameras that nab red-light runners.

Any money left over after fulfilling those goals would go to laying new roads - not buses, trains or any other projects that, in Eyman's estimation, don't help the state's hard-working, traffic-addled drivers.

Eyman pitches I-985 as a follow-up to State Auditor Brian Sonntag's 2007 report on possible solutions for the state's traffic tie-ups - a report issued after a previous Eyman initiative, I-900, created the performance audit program.

That audit made 22 recommendations, but Eyman says the Legislature and state Transportation Department have been too slow to make changes. Passing I-985, he says, "swift-kicks Olympia in the shins" by forcing the politicians into action.

But out of Sonntag's 22 recommendations, I-985 only implements two: coordinating traffic signals and clearing up crashes. Eyman says to avoid his solution, the Legislature should have acted first.

"Hey guys, you had your chance to do it your way. You have no standing to criticize the way we did it," Eyman said, adding that his ultimate goal is to ensure lawmakers pay more attention to future performance audits.

To counter Eyman's message, MacDonald and the opposition have taken up an Eymanesque argument - that his statewide policy for traffic problems will inevitably spend more money on urban areas where traffic is worst, giving rural or suburban folks short shrift.

"People have figured out that giant sucking sound is the sound of money going to Seattle from Eastern Washington," MacDonald said. "That's hardly been an Eyman trademark."

They've also got more nuanced attacks. New restrictions on tolling, for instance, would make it impossible to charge for crossing Lake Washington on both I-90 and State Route 520, which officials say is necessary to sufficiently pay for the 520 bridge replacement.

If I-90 is left toll-free, as I-985 would have it, too many drivers will bypass the 520 toll booths, driving down toll collections that are a major part of the new bridge's financing plan.

And opening up all car pool lanes could be a disaster in places, such as I-5, where car pool lanes are converted shoulders that sometimes fly away from the freeway on separate ramps.

More cars in those lanes will eventually mean more wrecks in hard-to-reach spots, MacDonald says, which won't help anybody reach their destination faster.

Opponents worry, however, that there's not enough room in a crowded election year to make a comprehensive case against I-985. If they can't get enough of their arguments in front of voters, the emotional tug of essentially voting against bad traffic could prevail.

"I know we could catch him if we had enough time," MacDonald says. "The thing is falling apart at the seams every day."

For his part, Eyman already has a victory "Freedom Drive" sketched out.

He plans to pilot a pickup - alone - in the highway car pool lanes during the first free-for-all period after the law takes effect. A sign in the back will read: "Drive in this lane. You paid for it. It's the law."

Amazing pics...:omg:

Unbelieveable!!!

Wonderful freeways!!!

I hate people like Eyman :lol: It's a shame he lives in Seattle. It would be hard to imagine something like this happening in Bay Area.

Public Purpose (http://www.publicpurpose.com/pp63-traffic2.htm) about Smart Growth in Portland. They apparantly don't think it's a good solution.

The author is Wendell Cox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Cox), some traffic expert.

However, traffic intensity (vehicle miles per square mile) is not, in itself, a determinant of traffic congestion. For example, an urban area with a modest traffic intensity, but with a substandard road network can have worse traffic congestion than an area with much greater traffic intensity.

Interesting approach in measuring traffic intensity. I have never read about this kind of measuring (vehicle miles per square unit) in the Netherlands, they usually only look at the traffic volumes per road.

Atlanta is an example of an urban area with a substandard road network (the virtual lack of a quality arterial street system), relatively low traffic intensity and highly congested traffic.

He seems about right here. Problem is the road network did not catch up with the extreme vastness of the Atlanta agglomeration. But what to do about it? You can widen or add freeways in those suburban areas but how wide should the system be around downtown? You can't just add endless amounts of lanes around downtown areas. And downtown Atlanta's freeways are already pretty wide. Maybe it's the way how the network is layed out. Too much traffic centers around the I-75/I-85 overlap. Perhaps they should've build a small beltway around downtown with a bit more radiating expressways/freeways so traffic is more spread out and reduces the chances for huge delays on the one freeway that's actually there.

But holding the roadway system constant, higher densities will make traffic congestion worse.

Yeah makes sense. Higher densities give public transport a chance of being efficient, however PT does not takes enough traffic off the road in order not having to increase capacity of the existing highway network.

How detailed do you want? Go to randmcnally.com and search for LA maps.

thx for help :) i found what i was looking for :)

i found this map if its accurate?

http://citytradesman.com/city-maps/los-angeles-map.jpg

Wendell Cox is a shill. He begs the question by ignoring most every aspect of transportation and land use planning other than road congestion. He isn't taken seriously as a transportation expert, and if you put much stock in what he says, you won't be, either. Besides that, roadbuilding on the massive scale he advocates simply isn't feasible.

Re Eyman's plan, I think it's dumb, too, but the part-time HOV lanes on I-20 in Atlanta were an unexpected law enforcement bonanza. As it turns out, people get confused about when they can and can't use the lanes, and petty criminals, being stupid, are more prone to such confusion than most people. Stops for HOV violations often revealed stolen cars, outstanding warrants, no insurance, that kind of thing.

He has some good points though. However, I don't agree with him on urban planning and zoning for instance, you don't want more of those Houston/Atlanta lookalikes. I'm not sure about Portland though. I've read somewhere it's congestion is the highest per capita.

Well, I think there can be much debate about how things should be measured. That's the problem with statistics, you can turn it into the way you want it.

I hate people like Eyman :lol: It's a shame he lives in Seattle. It would be hard to imagine something like this happening in Bay Area.

Someone called me a liberal on that news page (in the comments section). I hate people like that. All they care about is themselves, and that reflects a lot of Americans actually.

Someone called me a liberal on that news page (in the comments section). I hate people like that. All they care about is themselves, and that reflects a lot of Americans actually.

I don't wanna be another I-don't-carican.:)

There's one in San Jose on CA 87 @ Taylor Street. Very nice.

I don't wanna be another I-don't-carican.:)

Yeah things have to change haha time for a great awakening in the land of the free.

^^Yes that is very accurate.:)

Thanks for the pics, but this one annoys me. Are we out in the sticks somewhere?
http://i35.************/2vm9ceq.jpg

Here's one I took yesterday from the opposite roadway. The previous pic was taken from under the lowest bridge. All the bridges have retrofitted suicide fencing.
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4125/101608010xhh6.jpg

While we're in the neighborhood, here's one of my favorites: MARTA's crossing of I-75/85 downtown. The MARTA aerial was built before the widening of I-75/85 was designed, so the piers had to be relocated to accommodate the highway. To the left, the square box with the rust stain is like giant hands grasping the top of what used to be a pier. Right of that, two elbows sit atop new piers between the mainline and an onramp, and right of there the shoulders are a free-standing abutment with the concrete arms post tensioned downward against uplift. Pretty neat, huh? :)
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2293/101608009xjz8.jpg

Thanks for the pics, but this one annoys me. Are we out in the sticks somewhere?
http://i35.************/2vm9ceq.jpg



What do you mean?

^^It's right in the middle of downtown, but there are no highrises or cool bridges in view.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings-- I appreciate the photos. :) And I've been meaning to post one of that MARTA bridge for a while-- now I've gotten off my butt and done it.

Ah, ok, I didn't know that expression :lol:, and no, you didn't hurt my feelings.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2293/101608009xjz8.jpg

That bridgedeck looks really thin.

That bridgedeck looks really thin.

Yes, it does. It's something of an optical illusion since the deck is thicker in the middle and tapers at the edges, but it still looks as though the weight of a train would be enough to tip the whole thing over. But it isn't-- I asked an engineer friend about it. Concrete is heavier than it looks...

Still, MARTA went for a more traditional design on later segments. I hope the early design doesn't turn out to be something we deeply regret doing.:ohno:

I worked on a section of the South Line that used this design. The deck is made of precast sections about ten feet long set atop an eight foot wide steel box girder. One Saturday some segments were being set with a crane near an auto repair shop. A customer drove in, parked his car, then went inside the shop to talk with the owner. While he was inside, the ground collapsed under one of the crane's outriggers and the precast segment fell on his car, squashing it flat as a pancake.

Nice pics, Timon. How long were you in the US?

^^About 5½ weeks.

He seems about right here. Problem is the road network did not catch up with the extreme vastness of the Atlanta agglomeration. But what to do about it? You can widen or add freeways in those suburban areas but how wide should the system be around downtown? You can't just add endless amounts of lanes around downtown areas. And downtown Atlanta's freeways are already pretty wide. Maybe it's the way how the network is layed out. Too much traffic centers around the I-75/I-85 overlap. Perhaps they should've build a small beltway around downtown with a bit more radiating expressways/freeways so traffic is more spread out and reduces the chances for huge delays on the one freeway that's actually there.



Yeah makes sense. Higher densities give public transport a chance of being efficient, however PT does not takes enough traffic off the road in order not having to increase capacity of the existing highway network.

The freeway system you are advocating would have completely gutted Atlanta of its core neighborhoods, you know, the bricks and mortar of a city.

Atlanta has a vast freeway system and all of its main freeways are very wide. Yet traffic is awful. Building more freeways only encouraged people to move further away from the city center and enticed developers to build autocentric sprawl.


Atlanta needs to build a commuter rail system to alleviate traffic congestion.

You're trying to characterise me as someone who wants to pave of metro Atlanta, always good for NIMBY's huh.

Building a commuter rail to alleviate traffic congestion is money down the drain. They would only spend half or more of their transportation budget to accomodate only a few percent of the traffic. Therefore, problems on freeways will only increase because of lack of funding.

You can't just build a commuter rail in a virtually semi-rural area and then say all problems are over. The entire Atlanta area needs to be restructured in order to make the public transportation stand a chance. Something what would be far more radical for the Atlanta public than building a few expressways here and there.

Though I don't think either modality would solve traffic problems. It's the way Atlanta is build.

Another problem is of course that the suburbs are very widespread. And everyone has big houses with big gardens, meaning that the pop density is relatively low. This means that on average people have to travel bigger distances to get to the train station, which causes other problems.

Hey how about let's enjoy some 'Autumn' sites of Washington :]

After getting off I-90 and making a few turns, I took these with my phone:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_338.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_339.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_340.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_341.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_342.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_343.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_344.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_345.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_346.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_347.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_348.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_349.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_350.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_351.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_352.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/HAWC1506/2008%20Fall%20Lakemont%20Boulevard/IMAGE_353.jpg

Enjoy :]

Nice colors. :)

Over here it's getting there. It's getting colder and we have more wind and rain. Time to get my rain suit out (today was nice though)

You're trying to characterise me as someone who wants to pave of metro Atlanta, always good for NIMBY's huh.

Building a commuter rail to alleviate traffic congestion is money down the drain. They would only spend half or more of their transportation budget to accomodate only a few percent of the traffic. Therefore, problems on freeways will only increase because of lack of funding.

You can't just build a commuter rail in a virtually semi-rural area and then say all problems are over. The entire Atlanta area needs to be restructured in order to make the public transportation stand a chance. Something what would be far more radical for the Atlanta public than building a few expressways here and there.

Though I don't think either modality would solve traffic problems. It's the way Atlanta is build.

Actually, there are several good potential commuter rail corridors in Atlanta. I have studied the area.

A NW line out to Smyrna, Marietta, and beyond would do a great job taking passenger traffic off of I-75. Extending MArta north to Alpharetta would reduce congestion on U.S. 19. A commuter line heading northeast to Lawrenceville would take traffic off of I-85. You get the picture.

Actually, there are several good potential commuter rail corridors in Atlanta. I have studied the area.

A NW line out to Smyrna, Marietta, and beyond would do a great job taking passenger traffic off of I-75. Extending MArta north to Alpharetta would reduce congestion on U.S. 19. A commuter line heading northeast to Lawrenceville would take traffic off of I-85. You get the picture.
We don't call it US 19.

Call it 400 from here on out, because that's the name of the road. Simply, "400".

Actually, there are several good potential commuter rail corridors in Atlanta. I have studied the area.

A NW line out to Smyrna, Marietta, and beyond would do a great job taking passenger traffic off of I-75. Extending MArta north to Alpharetta would reduce congestion on U.S. 19. A commuter line heading northeast to Lawrenceville would take traffic off of I-85. You get the picture.

I'm a supporter of commuter rail in Atlanta, but it's unlikely that it would have a detectable effect on congestion. Any capacity improvement is subject to the effects of triple convergence: users avoid a congested facility by using alternate routes, alternate modes and/or alternate travel times, and if capacity is increased, many of those users will return. Plus there will be new users in such a fast-growing area.

MARTA up 400 is a nonstarter. It's too expensive to build, too expensive to operate, and wouldn't serve the travel demands of the corridor. The last segment of MARTA rail to open-- in the 400 corridor-- forced a fare increase that drove away more riders than the new extension attracted. System ridership fell. That's part of the reason why there are no extensions of MARTA heavy rail in the RTP.

Chris is right: "The entire Atlanta area needs to be restructured in order to make the public transportation stand a chance." To that I'll add that accomplishing that reconstruction will require either truly wrenching economic changes or a degree of political will that's totally out of character for the Atlanta region.

Double post, change of topic: Double level waterfront freeway, I-229 in St. Joseph, MO.

http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=39.753377,-94.855828&spn=0.004322,0.008862&t=k&z=16

The interchange with US 36 just south of here is... not what I would've expected.

I've just realised how much space American highways waste, especially on ramps and interchanges. Wouldn't it be cheaper if it were more condensed like Europe and used less land?

A Texas stack consumes less space than a Dutch cloverleaf ;)

Highways, interstates and roads in general are much wider than in Europe. Besides having more lanes (usually 5, 6 or more near and in the big cities) the lane itself is wider than lane in Europe plus you have service lanes on both left and right sides in each way. Even normal roads (they call them highways sometimes; they can have 2+ lanes in each way in some unimportant rural place but they also have traffic lights all the way meaning not all of the intersections have multi levels) have service lanes on both sides no matter if it has only one lane or 2+ lanes in each way. All of this results with greater safety on the US roads. I was always wondering how come it is so easy to get the driving licence in US (I mean you can easily get a permit for driving heavy trucks) and accidents are pretty rare. Now I know the reason :). This summer I made about 8-9 thou km alltogether in US and I've seen only 2 accidents (which were mild and due to really bad weather).

Interstate 5 Northbound

California State Exit 136B

From www.westcoastroads.com

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_136b_01.jpg

35W sculptures aren't just for looks


Cemstone became the first company in the nation to use a new form of concrete that removes carbon monoxide, nitrous oxides and sulfur dioxide from the atmosphere.

The photocatalytic concrete debuted as a pair of 30-foot sculptures installed in the median of the new Interstate 35W Bridge.

The two sculptures are constructed from a unique concrete that uses ultraviolet sunlight to promote and accelerate oxidation at the surface of the structures. In addition to keeping the sculptures a bright white color, the concrete allows for the conversion of smog-causing gases such as carbon monoxide, nitrous oxides and sulfur dioxide to higher oxidized states. This is the same process used by a catalytic converter in automobiles.

The monuments were designed using the international cartographic symbol for water.

Founded in 1927, Cemstone operates more than 50 ready-mix concrete plants in Minnesota, western Wisconsin, and northern Iowa.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/10/i-35_sculptures.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/10/img_4794_opt.jpg

Oh !!!!
Very Good !!!!

Highways, interstates and roads in general are much wider than in Europe. Besides having more lanes (usually 5, 6 or more near and in the big cities) the lane itself is wider than lane in Europe plus you have service lanes on both left and right sides in each way. Even normal roads (they call them highways sometimes; they can have 2+ lanes in each way in some unimportant rural place but they also have traffic lights all the way meaning not all of the intersections have multi levels) have service lanes on both sides no matter if it has only one lane or 2+ lanes in each way. All of this results with greater safety on the US roads. I was always wondering how come it is so easy to get the driving licence in US (I mean you can easily get a permit for driving heavy trucks) and accidents are pretty rare. Now I know the reason :). This summer I made about 8-9 thou km alltogether in US and I've seen only 2 accidents (which were mild and due to really bad weather).

The US has a lot of accidents, you just don't see them or hear much about them(except from traffic reports).

Yeah, in fact the US has one of the worst accident/death rates of the developed world, sadly.

^^The U.S. is only smart enough to design traffic safety, but not educate about/enforce traffic safety. Thinking here is so short-term it's not even funny...That's what happens when you have a nation full of wasteful, conservative idiots who think they're still in the 1950s.

We can build, but we can't educate, we can't maintain and we can't do anything other than sitting on our behinds and complain. And yet we wonder why our traffic is so bad, why we are behind in transportation and why our quality of life is falling.

I have a lot of respect for the government who built the Interstates in the 1950s. Forward-thinking was better back then. Now, everything seems so hopeless. Where are the good leaders? I can only hope that someone influential and smart enough will take lead of this country soon. The U.S. has always done a great job bouncing back from disasters like the current economical crisis, so I hope we can take another 'great leap' in a few years.

But for the current United States, the picture Konrakfon posted says it all.

Vote Obama.

Interstate 5 Northbound

California State Exit 136B

From www.westcoastroads.com

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_136b_01.jpg

^^The U.S. is only smart enough to design traffic safety, but not educate about/enforce traffic safety. Thinking here is so short-term it's not even funny...That's what happens when you have a nation full of wasteful, conservative idiots who think they're still in the 1950s.

We can build, but we can't educate, we can't maintain and we can't do anything other than sitting on our behinds and complain. And yet we wonder why our traffic is so bad, why we are behind in transportation and why our quality of life is falling.

I have a lot of respect for the government who built the Interstates in the 1950s. Forward-thinking was better back then. Now, everything seems so hopeless. Where are the good leaders? I can only hope that someone influential and smart enough will take lead of this country soon. The U.S. has always done a great job bouncing back from disasters like the current economical crisis, so I hope we can take another 'great leap' in a few years.

But for the current United States, the picture Konrakfon posted says it all.

Vote Obama.
What's wrong with voting Bob Barr as a protest vote? Maybe because Gov't has proven unwilling to be forward-thinking, we ought to move toward privatization. Practically every motorway in Eastern China is tolled, and we see how much they're able to build.

What's wrong with voting Bob Barr as a protest vote?


that's just an idiotic way of thinking and a waste of a vote. voting is not a privilege it's a right. why not just stay home?

^^The U.S. is only smart enough to design traffic safety, but not educate about/enforce traffic safety. Thinking here is so short-term it's not even funny...That's what happens when you have a nation full of wasteful, conservative idiots who think they're still in the 1950s.

We can build, but we can't educate, we can't maintain and we can't do anything other than sitting on our behinds and complain. And yet we wonder why our traffic is so bad, why we are behind in transportation and why our quality of life is falling.

I have a lot of respect for the government who built the Interstates in the 1950s. Forward-thinking was better back then. Now, everything seems so hopeless. Where are the good leaders? I can only hope that someone influential and smart enough will take lead of this country soon. The U.S. has always done a great job bouncing back from disasters like the current economical crisis, so I hope we can take another 'great leap' in a few years.

But for the current United States, the picture Konrakfon posted says it all.

Vote Obama.


I concur


I lived in Massachusetts before moving back to California. the quality of roads in Massachusetts is heart breaking. a developed nation with third world level of roads. let's just hope we'll get it together this time.

What's wrong with voting Bob Barr as a protest vote? Maybe because Gov't has proven unwilling to be forward-thinking, we ought to move toward privatization. Practically every motorway in Eastern China is tolled, and we see how much they're able to build.

It would be illegal to toll the interstate highway system, and completely unfeasible. Who would pay for installing toll booths on EVERY SINGLE INTERCHANGE IN THE SYSTEM???? Use the money to fix the damn roads.

And American infrastructure has deteriorated under right-wing conservative, pro-privatization, leadership, that has cut taxes and infrastructure spending. We need left wingers that will invest in America, not in oil wars.

China is building so many roads because they spend 9% of their GDP on infrastructure. America spends less than ONE percent.

It would be illegal to toll the interstate highway system, and completely unfeasible. Who would pay for installing toll booths on EVERY SINGLE INTERCHANGE IN THE SYSTEM???? Use the money to fix the damn roads.

And American infrastructure has deteriorated under right-wing conservative, pro-privatization, leadership, that has cut taxes and infrastructure spending. We need left wingers that will invest in America, not in oil wars.

China is building so many roads because they spend 9% of their GDP on infrastructure. America spends less than ONE percent.
Ok, what about a "P3" system? Public-Private-Partnership?

Or we could do like Mitch and all have "Major Moves" projects in our states too.

http://www.in.gov/indot/7039.htm

Ok, what about a "P3" system? Public-Private-Partnership?

Or we could do like Mitch and all have "Major Moves" projects in our states too.

http://www.in.gov/indot/7039.htm


Major Moves "leased" an EXISTING toll road to a private consortium. There is nothing stopping states from leasing their own toll roads.

However, such a deal wouldn't work on a non-toll highway. It is illegal and the public would revolt.

Major Moves "leased" an EXISTING toll road to a private consortium. There is nothing stopping states from leasing their own toll roads.

However, such a deal wouldn't work on a non-toll highway. It is illegal and the public would revolt.
And while it can't be done in every state, I can throw out over a dozen that it would benefit.

-Massachusetts
-New York
-New Hampshire
-New Jersey
-Delaware
-Pennsylvania
-Florida
-Kansas
-Oklahoma
-Illinois(Chicago Skyway is already an example, go city of Chicago and Mayor Daley for making it happen)
-West Virginia
-Maine
-Ohio

Personally, I am very much against tolling. I think the U.S. government needs to clean up a bit and streamline funding. The next thing to do would be to raise the gas tax and make gas prices hover at about $5-6 dollars a gallon and diesel at $4.50. What happens right now is that we'll have funding for a project, but attached to the project itself is a whole bunch of other junk that drives costs up. Then, some states including Washington, tax themselves. So a 4 billion dollar project will have a few-hundred million dollars worth of sales tax that will drive the cost even higher. The tax then goes to the general fund for schools/parks/other government stuff. Bottom line, gas tax should be for roads and roads only.

There's no reason to toll. America can't manage traffic as it is, and having toll booths would just overwhelm DOTs who can't even build a straight guardrail. If Germany can build world-class highways without tolls, there is no reason why the world's 'richest' country can't. Americans should get off the 'we-are-so-great' train and start realizing that we're practically the most third-world of modern countries.

Yeah, in fact the US has one of the worst accident/death rates of the developed world, sadly.

Depends how you measure it. If you count it per x number of inhabitants, yes, it's pretty bad, but if you measure it by the number of miles driven, it's not much worse than Europe.

I've never seen a single car accident in the US actually. I guess it's just luck. Well, I saw a car hitting a deer, but that was in Canada.

It's one thing to build a new road as a toll road, but it's another to convert it to one. Not easy at all!

The US has a lot of accidents, you just don't see them or hear much about them(except from traffic reports).

I'm curious if anybody has some US stats about accidents comparable to those in Europe... Maybe Chris?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Sort the "Road fatalities
per 1 billion
vehicle-km" list

It's a surprise for me that Belgium is doing so bad. USA is quite bad as well.

No, the USA isn't that bad at all. The Netherlands is the safest country in the world after Malta on traffic fatalities and the U.S. isn't that far behind. Like I said, it's how you calculate it. Per 100.000 inhabitants gives a higher fatality rate than per billion travelled miles because Americans drive more than Europeans. The US non-freeway record is even better than the Dutch one.

Belgium has always been worse. It's partially because of the infrastructure (bad maintenance, suicide lanes, cyclists on 120km/h roads etc, but also about the driving habits and education, which is of a far lower standard than Germany for instance.)

^^Yeah, that's true. We Dutch have our death roads (N33, N35, both aren't freeways). In that case it's not surprising that the USA is doing better :ohno:

I'm curious if anybody has some US stats about accidents comparable to those in Europe... Maybe Chris?

http://www.autosavant.com/2008/08/28/the-american-plague-of-overtaking-on-the-right/

That article explains some safety issues in the U.S.

No, the USA isn't that bad at all. The Netherlands is the safest country in the world after Malta on traffic fatalities and the U.S. isn't that far behind. Like I said, it's how you calculate it. Per 100.000 inhabitants gives a higher fatality rate than per billion travelled miles because Americans drive more than Europeans. The US non-freeway record is even better than the Dutch one.

Belgium has always been worse. It's partially because of the infrastructure (bad maintenance, suicide lanes, cyclists on 120km/h roads etc, but also about the driving habits and education, which is of a far lower standard than Germany for instance.)

What makes Belgian drivers bad?

As Chris said, the suicide lane is very dangerous. In the Ardennes drivers think they can still pass that car in front of them before that hill, and thus can't see the car coming from the other side. Boom. Accident. And the drivers aren't that well educated like in Germany.

Older Belgian drivers are educated by their parents. Driving education isn't very well and my experience is that they are worst in Wallonia. I experienced more dangerous situations in the few times a year I drive there than the rest of the year in the Netherlands.

But I heard US drivers ed is very bad. They say "2 rounds around the block and you get your license" here. I don't know if that's true, seems exagerated to me.

According to some of my (American) friends, it only cost them about $100 to get lessons and a licence. To me this looks like 3 or 4 lessons, no more. However, I could just be American exaggeratism.

Chris: shouldn't "more worse" be "worst"? :D

Not, if you're drunk. :lol:

^^ thank you ;)

I have spend about € 1500,- / $ 2000 on my license, which I got pretty fast for Dutch standards (24 lessons, passed theory and practice exam in the first time).

I told my friends it costs you an average €2000 to get your license in the Netherlands, and they were all stunned. I don't think I'll get it because I just can't afford it. I mean, I don't earn millions as an Assistant Floor Manager at Albert Heijn.

I payed for my license by working at Albert Heijn (Dutch market leader in supermarkets) ;)

Really? How long did you work there? I work at AH now for about 1½ years, and I don't earn lots of money. Anyways, I get a higher wage in a few weeks because it's my birthday soon. That'll be another €0,50 extra per hour. Quite ok!

I worked there 24 - 32 hours a week, so it adds up then.

What about this American drivers license? An exam alone costs like € 180 or something in the Netherlands. But I heard American students on high school also have classes about drivers ed. They should do that too in the Netherlands.

An American drivers license is $35, AFAIK.

Older Belgian drivers are educated by their parents. Driving education isn't very well and my experience is that they are worst in Wallonia. I experienced more dangerous situations in the few times a year I drive there than the rest of the year in the Netherlands.

That's how you learn to be driver in the states.BTW, are there any regional differences in terms of driving habits in Belgium?

Older Belgian drivers are educated by their parents. Driving education isn't very well and my experience is that they are worst in Wallonia. I experienced more dangerous situations in the few times a year I drive there than the rest of the year in the Netherlands.

But I heard US drivers ed is very bad. They say "2 rounds around the block and you get your license" here. I don't know if that's true, seems exagerated to me.

I just took drivers ed. It's a complete joke. What you said was not exagerrated. To get your drivers permit, you don't even need to take drivers ed. All you have to do is go to the Department of Motoring, take a test about some basic rules of the road, and if you pass, you get a permit. Six months later after you've practiced a bit, you take the written test again, take the pointless 'driving' test, show them you can read 12-point font and you get your license.

Oh by the way, motorway driving is NOT part of the test.

Americans don't even need drivers ed to get a license. It's quite sad. My dad was trained in Taiwan (pretty strict training), and when he was driving here in the U.S., a police officer was impressed that he could parallel park in a small space.

In MD, you have to take a 20 question quiz to get a permit, than take 30 hours of driving class(I think) plus 6 hrs driving with the teacher, and 60 hours of driving with you parent or somebody who is 21 and has been driving for at least 3 years. Than after 6 months, you go to the local DMV and do a driving test, which is all about parallel parking, 3 point turns, turning into intersection, and parking! If you pass, you get you license.

BTW, are there any regional differences in terms of driving habits in Belgium?

Wallonia (worse) vs. Flanders (better), I think.

Getting a driver's licence in New Jersey is like getting a tooth pulled out of you without any anesthetic.
You have to complete a 50 question test in the computer and questions are different each time you go there. And you have to wait 1 week before you can redo the test again.
On top of that, you have to wait 1 month till you go for the driving test.

In California it's a bit easier but what sucks about it is that you only have 3 chances to get the written test right. 30 questions and you can only get 6 wrong.
Once you fail you'd have to start the procedure all over again. They'll take your photo, you pay a new $28 fee... etc
But there's no waiting time like in Jersey though.

Keep in mind that the steps I mentioned for getting a license was a recent change 5 years ago. Before that, it was MUCH easier to get a license here.

No matter what, US drivers ed is not up to modern standards. I don't know what is up with Americans but they all think that they deserve to have everything, and the government is allowing them to do that.

Well you know how that turned out, we practically ruined the world economy...

btw, I'm performing with the Seattle Symphony in March if anyone's interested lol

yeah they have talked about the trans texas corridor...some of my friends have had land bought to create it, but theyve shut up about it due to the gas prices...however in texas the texas government has said the speed limit will be 85mph.

it will be wider than a football field containing train tracks, truck highway and car highway

^^Sorry, it will be a little far and expensive for me :lol:
Regarding all said above about obtaining your drivers license, there seem to be differences in how difficult it is to get it. Besides NJ, are there any other states where it is very difficult to get? I wonder if people go to the ''easy'' states if they live in a "difficult" state, if you know what I mean.

I encourage people discussing the NAFTA superhighway a rail way issue, to please dig deeper. The Security and Prosperity Partnership agreement put into play by Bush in 2005 leads us down a narrow path that we can never turn around once we head down it. The first red flags are that the SPP was never voted on by congress or the parliament. Yes this might help will congested roads, but you have to look at the bigger picture. One once built they will effectively be able to now by-pass our union ran dock yards and ship FDP into Mexico via Mexican ports. The drivers will not be American they will be Mexican, they customs they go through will be Mexican smartpods built by our tax dollars here in the states. The drivers will fall under NAFTA regulated driving standards and not U.S. Dept of Road Safety laws. They highways will be tolled out and privatized to foreign and domestic investors and the current one in Texas is leased our for the next 50 years the the Spanish firm Cintra/Zachary. They land layout will be seized through eminent domain, these are cattle ranchers,farmers and everyday people. This will hurt small communities that depends on truck drivers to come through their small towns and create growth. The Mexican truck drivers will have a Citra Pass or EZ pass which is a RFID based ID that will allow for quick passages through customs, this will lead to increased money laundering, smuggling drugs and people. European Union was introduced as a steal trade ideology by think tank groups, later to develop into expansion of trade to merging communities and laws into a group and now a Euro currency and a EU Law. The NAU is not a conspiracy as many would have you believe it is very real, and backed by both parties McCain and Obama. You say not so, The Council on Foreign Relations has laid out plans and research papers to help drive global think tanks to slowly give up our sovereignty in the name of greater good, I can provide pdf. files of speeches if asked. You ask how does Obama apply to this, when asked at a speech in Nebraska he acted like he was oblivious to the NAFTA superhighway and the NAU, Fact: Michelle Obama is a active member of the CFR, Obama himself has spoken their on several occasions. McCain received illegal contributions from the Rothschilds during his campaign running, Rothschild whom are a foreign interest and a branch of many organizations hold investments in the NAFTA superhighway, i.e. JP Morgan, which has been in bed with the org for centuries. I could go on more about this aspect and provide proof, but I want to stick to this topic and not get side tracked. Kansas 3 Millions tax dollar for a smartport for Mexican custom officials, Laredo, TX drug gangs fighting for territory because this city is the bloodline for major trafficking, Laredo is one of the first major cities with the roads being built as we speak. Once this is done we will have our land seized, taxed on our roads, and lose our jobs. This is all in the name of security and prosperity giving you false illusion of democracy. Their is no difference in Republican or Democrat. Please write me back let me know what you think alexduncan72@hotmail.com also sign my petition http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-eminent-domain-for-profit

1:45:16 (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm)?

^^Sorry, it will be a little far and expensive for me :lol:
Regarding all said above about obtaining your drivers license, there seem to be differences in how difficult it is to get it. Besides NJ, are there any other states where it is very difficult to get? I wonder if people go to the ''easy'' states if they live in a "difficult" state, if you know what I mean.

I am not entirely sure if people do that, but every state has a different law. Some states might even require you to retake the test according to their standards. You cannot drive in Oregon with a Washington license (you can, but I think there is a time limit, which is about a month or so I believe). The thing about the U.S. is that everything is so disjointed and unorganised that there isn't really a standard. Which can work out to be good in some ways, especially when you have a leader and a state who are both willing to stand up and move forward ahead of others. But so far, nothing like that has happened.

^^So if you decided you wanted to move to Portland, you'd have to redo your exam? That's bad. The US really needs a nationwide standard, but with 50 states and thus 50 different opinions, that'll be very hard to get through :ohno:

^^So if you decided you wanted to move to Portland, you'd have to redo your exam? That's bad. The US really needs a nationwide standard, but with 50 states and thus 50 different opinions, that'll be very hard to get through :ohno:

It can also work out to your benefit. For example, Texas has a very limited demerit point system, and generally does not count out-of-state violations toward it. That's nice, because insurance companies generally only look at the state reports to adjust your rates.

National standards would be a hard sell because of the varying different needs of the different states. One needs very different skillsets for driving in New Jersey compared to Wyoming.

And what about Canada? Do they have a national standard? It seems like you also need different skills to drive in Toronto and in Yellowknife, for example.

Canada has a similar licensing system to that of the USA. There is no nation-wide standard driving licence there.

^^So if you decided you wanted to move to Portland, you'd have to redo your exam? That's bad. The US really needs a nationwide standard, but with 50 states and thus 50 different opinions, that'll be very hard to get through :ohno:
The USA is a federal republic where the states created the federal government and not the other way around - the states handle most everyday legal stuff like licensing and criminal law, for example (note, the Feds license electronic communications and aircraft pilots). Driving licensing is handled at the state level although, under the USConstitution's 'full faith and credit clause', if you are licensed in one state, it is recognized by all states, ditto if revoked, suspended, etc. Transferring a license from one state to another usually involves little more than making sure that identification is proved (some states are more strict than others on that part).

'Commercial' driving licenses (ie, lorries, coaches, etc) are also done at the state level (using federal standards), but with much greater safeguards on making sure that if someone is revoked in one state, that revocation is recognized in all of the others.

Mike

There's no need for this road, and I say that as an expressway enthusiast.

Road transported long distance cargo cannot and will not be the way of the future.

^^So if you decided you wanted to move to Portland, you'd have to redo your exam? That's bad. The US really needs a nationwide standard, but with 50 states and thus 50 different opinions, that'll be very hard to get through :ohno:

I sort of wish there was a strict, national standard. No matter which state you are in, you are still in the same country. If you live in New Mexico but will drive in the snow up in Michigan, you'll still need the skill. Every driver in the U.S. should be ready for all conditions and up to standard.

The North American Stupid Highway ranks somewhere between the Ryugyong Hotel and building an elevator to the moon. In other words: idiocy and pure fantasy.

I suppose there is demand for this kind of project under the current US administration though. Reminds me of the serious American idea of building a fence along the entire US/Canada border. Maybe I'm out of touch; idiocy is the new common-sense.

Hey I know this isn't a State-Route thread, but this proposal has to be worthy of notice. This is a proposal to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct for SR 99 through Seattle.

Chopp unveils ambitious Viaduct plan
House speaker's proposal includes shops, a park and yes, a highway

By LARRY LANGE
P-I REPORTER

An elevated highway, a park, shops and offices, a pedestrian-friendly place where cars can bypass downtown Seattle two stories above ground.

Speaker of the House Frank Chopp's idea for replacing the Alaskan Way Viaduct, he said Tuesday, is " a way of including everybody's bottom line."

There have been long arguments over whether to replace the viaduct with a tunnel, another elevated highway or remove it altogether and disperse the traffic to other streets and into buses.

Chopp's ambitious idea, not yet given a price tag, would replace the viaduct with a mile-long, four-level structure open to retail space on the first level, offices on the second, highway lanes on the third and a park on top.

The new structure would accommodate more traffic than a "surface-transit" replacement, would provide a new waterfront park with sweeping views and could be partly paid for with rents on the retail and office space.

The idea stirred great interest among about two dozen Manufacturing Industrial Council members, business managers and industrialists who have been skeptical of the idea of removing the viaduct and shifting the traffic to the surface.

"Out of everything I've seen so far, this is the most exciting," said Tukwila plastics manufacturer Clint Cox.

Engineers from the city, state and county are analyzing the eight options to see how each option performs. One of them is Chopp's proposed "waterfront parkway," though it's described among the eight-option list as a "four-lane integrated elevated" highway.

Other possibilities include one other elevated four-lane highway without park or other amenities; two tunnels; three "surface" traffic options; and a partially lidded trench that would distribute traffic above ground to the Battery Street Tunnel.

Chopp, a Seattle Democrat, has worked on the proposal for more than a year but has remained relatively quiet about it until now.

At Tuesday's session with the business officials he displayed drawings showing ground-level businesses with access to the waterfront and elevators taking pedestrians to upper levels and the park. He said the new structure could be built in two steps, from west to east, possibly in a shorter time than other options. He'd leave four lanes of traffic on much of Alaskan Way.

The plan now envisions two bus stops but no ramps to downtown, a change that brought questions. He said amenities such as the park couldn't be built by the state but could be financed with leases revenue and sale of development rights. He could not say how much of the cost might be raised or what effects the construction would have.

Chopp said designers and developers, many in favor of removing the viaduct and redesigning the waterfront, have so far listened "and then they want to keep their mouths shut." Tuesday's attendees said traffic movement was their priority.

"You can paint it pink as far as we're concerned, as long as you can get through on it," said Peter Whitehead, owner of Nelson Trucking.City, county and state staffers will complete analysis of Chopp's option and the other seven next month and report their results to a 30-member committee of citizen "stakeholders" for comment. They are then expected to offer two or three options to Gov. Chris Gregoire, Mayor Greg Nickels and King County Executive Ron Sims by the end of the year.

State legislators were intrigued but had a wait-and-see reaction. Nickels declined to comment and Sims' spokeswoman, Carolyn Duncan, said Sims is "keeping an open mind. In general, Ron has been most supportive of a surface-transit option and I don't believe that has changed. Of course, that's not what Chopp's proposal is."

Yes, this highway is a horrible idea. HSR does not have to be as a part of this new mega highway that will destroy VAST swaths of land.

Upgrade I-35 if necessary. Investing in expanded freight and passenger rail along I-35 will take a lot of traffic off the highway.

It's pretty easy to get a driver's license in Indiana. You go the DMV, take the written exam (50 questions, I can't remember how many you can get wrong before you fail the test). Then you can schedule an appointment to take your driving test. If you pass that, then you get your license!!

Driver's ed is not required to get a license, but it does lower insurance premiums.:)

No driver's ed? Our driving standards are much worse that I realized.

It's pretty easy to get a driver's license in Indiana. You go the DMV, take the written exam (50 questions, I can't remember how many you can get wrong before you fail the test). Then you can schedule an appointment to take your driving test. If you pass that, then you get your license!!

Driver's ed is not required to get a license, but it does lower insurance premiums.:)

Driver's ed isn't really a requirement in most, if not all states for people over the age of 18. Those mandatory driver's ed requirements for provisional licenses have been targeting the youngsters.

Alabama is a lot like Indiana... I just took a written test, and a 10 minute road test and had my license. I had driver's ed in high school, but it didn't lower my premiums nor was it a requirement.

My dad got his license in the army, and he didn't pay a single guilder for it. Now I have to pay at least 2000 euros, almost 4500 guilders :ohno:

In all the areas I knew Driver's Ed was a scheduled class in your public schools for 15-16 year olds.

The classes are free, and if you pass the class you don't have to take a drivers test at your local government office to get your license. You just bring in your slip of paper from the school saying you passed.

A license costs $16 to obtain.

So overall myself and all my friends growing up spent $16 (although I think it was cheaper back then, 10 years ago).

The USA is a federal republic where the states created the federal government and not the other way around - the states handle most everyday legal stuff like licensing and criminal law, for example (note, the Feds license electronic communications and aircraft pilots). Driving licensing is handled at the state level although, under the USConstitution's 'full faith and credit clause', if you are licensed in one state, it is recognized by all states, ditto if revoked, suspended, etc. Transferring a license from one state to another usually involves little more than making sure that identification is proved (some states are more strict than others on that part).

'Commercial' driving licenses (ie, lorries, coaches, etc) are also done at the state level (using federal standards), but with much greater safeguards on making sure that if someone is revoked in one state, that revocation is recognized in all of the others.

Mike


Exactly, I wish more people would remember this when they talk about things done strangely here.

This country was formed by many different states with different identities who grouped together and formed The United States of America as a blanket power that would streamline economics, defense and foriegn relations for all those states who joined their union. Strength in numbers. It was much like the European Union really when it was created. The states are in charge of all daily matters and the life and situation of its residents. The Federal Government is there to protect everyone involved, to oversee the economy and to make broad rules to assure that all 50 states function together as a friendly unit. Until WWI and WWII, the federal government was actually extremely small and did not exert much power over the country as a whole. Think back in the 1800's, it took months to figure out who was elected, and people didn't really care about the federal government. Only when information technology and transportation/communication became so fast was the Federal Government able to have solid control over things on a daily basis.

States get in fights all the time over things, but it never gets out of control because the Federal Government is there all the time to make sure that the union holds together and we don't lose that stability.



We all know we're Americans, and we can have that national pride, but in your personal life and the life of your family, your state tends to come before anything else. Growing up I knew I was born and bred in IOWA. I was an Iowan and that was must more important in my life than being part of the United States, which is a hodge podge of so many different areas and people that I have nothing in common with. Your individual life revolves around your state, but the entire population of the 50 states falls under the USA.

In all the areas I knew Driver's Ed was a scheduled class in your public schools for 15-16 year olds.

The classes are free, and if you pass the class you don't have to take a drivers test at your local government office to get your license. You just bring in your slip of paper from the school saying you passed.

A license costs $16 to obtain.

So overall myself and all my friends growing up spent $16 (although I think it was cheaper back then, 10 years ago).

Yeah it all depends on the state. In Washington, Drivers Ed is offered in school and outside of school. If you take drivers ed though, you get a waiver for the written test to get your PERMIT. You still have to take the written test for the license. License is like...30 dollars I think? The drivers ed course was $200 or something.

My dad got his license in the army, and he didn't pay a single guilder for it. Now I have to pay at least 2000 euros, almost 4500 guilders :ohno:
My dear! Another government's step in limiting the number of motorists?
In Poland it costs (a course and an exam) about 400 euro

^^For that price we get good lessons, so we are really "ready for the road" when we get our license. At least better than in the USA. However, the price is way too much. Young people can hardly afford it themselves anymore. Some of my friends who've just become 18 have their license because their parents paid for it. Some other 18 year old friends of mine don't have their license because they have to pay for it themselves and they can't afford it. I'm not sure whether I'm going to get my license once I get 18, because students get a so called "OV-jaarkaart" with which they can travel with the public transport for free (you can choose whether you want it on weekdays or in weekends). That is also a good and safe way to get around. But if parents pay, I'm fine with it. :D

^^For that price we get good lessons, so we are really "ready for the road" when we get our license. At least better than in the USA. However, the price is way too much. Young people can hardly afford it themselves anymore. Some of my friends who've just become 18 have their license because their parents paid for it. Some other 18 year old friends of mine don't have their license because they have to pay for it themselves and they can't afford it. I'm not sure whether I'm going to get my license once I get 18, because students get a so called "OV-jaarkaart" with which they can travel with the public transport for free (you can choose whether you want it on weekdays or in weekends). That is also a good and safe way to get around. But if parents pay, I'm fine with it. :D

To be honest I don't see much improvment in road behaviour from young drivers in NL compared to countries where a license is easier obtained. It seems to be the general rule of thumb that when you get your license you throw the rule book out the window and drive around like a maniac.
NL drivers also seem to hate using inticators for some reason.
But the road toll speaks for it's self and so I suppose you can conclude that the general standard of driving is better than most countries (although I believe newly licensed drivers are just as bad in NL as elsewhere).

^^Have you ever driven on in former Eastern Europe? Dutch drive way better than Slovaks, for instance. There are way less maniacs over here.

Oh yes. But they're all nutty as fruit cakes over there :lol:

One driving lesson of one hour generally costs you between € 35 and € 40 in the Netherlands. You usually need about 25 - 30 of them to get your drivers license fast, but a lot of people need 40+ lessons. So it adds up quite fast that way. (30*40 = € 1.200 for lessons alone).

Everyone is saying their country has better training than the USA. I don't understand what that means since all 50 states are totally different on the training required, the age at which you can drive, the driving laws, the amount of liquor you can have in your system and still drive, the condition of their roads, the speed limits, and the costs associated.

It would be like talking about all of Europe's drivers as one collective group.



The states themselves are individually in control of healthcare and hospitals for their residents, policing, emergency repsponses, unemployment benifits, setting sales taxes and state income taxes, fire responses, natural resources and protecting their lands, their laws and justice, whether they want the death penalty, gay marriage, alcohol controls, the age at which you can drive, the legality of prostitution, if they want to outlaw fireworks or not, speed limits, corporate taxes and business laws, the control of colleges and universities, their electrical grids, primary education in their state, welfare benifits, prisons, etc etc etc.

The 50 states together oversee the constitution, and confirm that in order to be a part of our union, they must adhear to the 40-45 or whatever amendments or "rules" of the constitution. These are the overall laws and rights that are mandatory for everyone in each state in order to be a part of the United States.

Outside those laws in the constitution, the Federal Government has no control over the individual states. Any and every decision for the lives of the people are up to the state unless the states have given that responsibility to the federal government.

Of course the government has found ways to streamline many areas. For instance the states can pick the legal age to drink, but a few decades ago the federal government said they weren't going to give any states federal funds for roads unless they had a 21 year old limit on drinking. Louisiana was the last hold-out, but the states are still technically able to make that decision. There are a lot of areas like this where forigners might think that the US government is in charge of many things that are technically up to the states. Most all states have fairly similar laws since we're all in the same boat and it just "makes sense" in most cases.

Regardless of state, driver's ed in the country sucks compared to those in Europe countries(with some exceptions I think) For example you hardly see any left lane hoggers over there while over here they are everywhere

^^ I concur. For instance, in order to get a Russian licence, I had to enrol in a driving school (it's mandatory) and then pass the internal driving exam first. If I had not passed it, they would not have let me take the official driving test with highway patrol officer. The official driving exam lasted almost one hour on busy streets and included pretty much every manoeuvre and traffic rule I had to know in order to drive on my own. For instance if the officer asks you to park there, you have to be sure that it is allowed to park there; otherwise, you have to politely inform him that it is against the law.

Does any state in the Union have this strict regulations when it comes to getting the driving licence? As far as I know, there isn't such a state.

^^You said something about Oregon.

You said something about Oregon.
I said that Oregon drivers were much more disciplined than California ones. However, when it comes to getting a license, Oregon does not differ much from other states.

It seems that in the USA people are not expected to have good driving skills, so the government makes the fool-proof rules such as putting STOP at every intersection, setting lower speed limits on motorways and convincing people that speed is the most evil of all :lol: How can we explain why in exactly same situations, most European countries use YIELD while in North America they use STOP? Clearly, YIELD is better in terms of smoother traffic flow, less CO2 emissions, and longer brakes and engine life. The only advantage of STOP is that it is idiot-proof SAFE.

Regardless of state, driver's ed in the country sucks compared to those in Europe countries(with some exceptions I think) For example you hardly see any left lane hoggers over there while over here they are everywhere

I grew up in Iowa and everyone was quite serious about Driver's Ed. I think what you're saying just backs up my point.

I know many American expats in Sweden and pretty much all of them have a really hard time passing the written and road tests here. I studied like crazy (for an entire month, every day) and had an easy time with the written test, but most American here fail or barely pass (a few I know failed 2-4 times...). Embarrassingly, I myself failed the driving test the first time around and had to take it again (passed then). And all this is of course having driven in the US for a long time (with most expats I know coming here in their 30s or so meaning they'd driven for quite a while). The rules here are not that different, so this goes to show just how much higher the standards are here. It really pays off -- Sweden has the 3rd safest roads in the world, with the Netherlands being discussed above being the safest country to drive in. Pretty much every American I've lived here, regardless of state, has said that they learned so much they had no idea about before when getting their licenses here.

In addition to lots of road rules, you are also tested on car mechanics, towing, environmental factors, etc. on the written test. And in addition to the road test, you have to go on a slippery road course, where you manage to handle your car on ice, snow, etc. (which is actually a bit entertaining---speeding up and breaking really hard etc :P).

^^Good summary! That explains it all. It's very good you get a slippery road course, something that I believe is not obligatory in the Netherlands. You can take courses for that at the ANWB (I've seen ads for that)

-edit- Help! My 1666th post :D

Regardless of state, driver's ed in the country sucks compared to those in Europe countries(with some exceptions I think) For example you hardly see any left lane hoggers over there while over here they are everywhere

That's not training, that's just the driving culture.

^^ I think there is some correlation between the training and the road culture, no?

^^ I think there is some correlation between the training and the road culture, no?

Not necessarily. Tell me how you're going to convince Americans that they aren't gods on the road. No amount of training is going to weed that out of our driving culture.

The unique intertwining of roads and US culture means that many of the systems that work worldwide don't apply as well. Urban and suburban Americans are used to constantly driving on freeways that have more than 2 lanes a side. It would be weird to think that the rules are different in the rural areas.

Tell me how you're going to convince Americans that they aren't gods on the road.
How? By enforcing the road rules. And I am not talking about the speed enforcement only (that's been overdone here). Police should start pulling people over for driving in the left lanes unnecessarily, for not indicating their turns, for not yielding to the main traffic, for following too closely, etc. Old habits die hard, but when someone is fined several times for the same offence within a short period of time, they tend to become more disciplined.

A good example would be the city of Pullman, WA. I doubt anyone here thinks that he/she is a god on the road. Washington cops change me too, after stopping me 3 times in a 6-month period for speeding. And you know what? I don't speed anymore. When I was living in California, I would never think that someone would force me to follow speed limits 100%.

Tyrone, GA, gets almost its entire budget by fining drivers for speeding :lol:

What I see happening in Washington sometime is a cop who hides in the freeway median (like under an overpass or something). Drivers drive by seeing the cop at last second and brake really hard, so the people behind them brake even harder to slow down, and the people behind them brake even harder, and so on. Pretty soon the flow of traffic goes down like 20 mph because of the stupid cop.

American cops do nothing more than impede traffic flow.

American cops do nothing more than impede traffic flow.
Very accurate description for Washington cops, indeed. Especially, if you compare how California cops and Washington cops make traffic stops. In California, after they pull someone over, they tell the driver over the PA to pull into the parking lot or a quiet side street in order not to impede the traffic flow. In Washington, on the other hand, they stop drivers in the middle of the lane just metres away from the entrance to the parking lot and do their business for 5-10 minutes making all traffic to occupy half of the opposite lane :ohno:

How? By enforcing the road rules. And I am not talking about the speed enforcement only (that's been overdone here). Police should start pulling people over for driving in the left lanes unnecessarily, for not indicating their turns, for not yielding to the main traffic, for following too closely, etc. Old habits die hard, but when someone is fined several times for the same offence within a short period of time, they tend to become more disciplined.

A good example would be the city of Pullman, WA. I doubt anyone here thinks that he/she is a god on the road. Washington cops change me too, after stopping me 3 times in a 6-month period for speeding. And you know what? I don't speed anymore. When I was living in California, I would never think that someone would force me to follow speed limits 100%.

And face the political wrath of millions of drivers who will pull out of their political stupor and start writing congresspeople/state legislators. It happened in the case of New Rome, OH, when they (admittedly in a revenue trap) enforced every traffic law in the book (most of which are as stringent as any European law), leading to such an outcry that the state legislature revoked the town charter and had the town next door forcibly annex the territory.

There has been mounting pressure on the Texas state legislature to do something about the overaggressive enforcement of traffic regulation in many small towns; even the Republican (generally pro-police enforcement) platform this year has a plank opposing this sort of thing.

In local settings, popular opinion still matters on this sort of thing, and since the US is a federal state with much local control, coming up with a legal solution is not going to work that well.

(RE: Pullman; that's a college town. Aggressive enforcement is tolerated because of concerns about drunk driving and drug use, not to mention non-student neighbors wanting to suppress a party culture as much as possible. Ask a professor if they worry about being pulled over; in all likelihood, they can get away with anything short of murder on the road. When I was in school, one of my professors was pulled over and blew a .25 % BAC. The cop merely escorted him home and admonished him over driving at that level of intoxication. That's opposed to a friend of mine who blew a .09% and got thrown in jail for the night and had to cough up $2500.)

I-95 in New York City
http://i37.************/11b68tx.jpg

I personally think police agencies around the country should tune down speed limit enforcement(especially those on freeways at night), and concentrate on other violations like hogging up the left lane when the right lanes are free.

I personally think police agencies around the country should tune down speed limit enforcement(especially those on freeways at night), and concentrate on other violations like hogging up the left lane when the right lanes are free.

"We can't do that. We won't have money then!"

That's boll*cks, raise the gas tax.

Wow, what a commieblock :nuts: In USA ? ;)

Wow, what a commieblock :nuts: In USA ? ;)
NYC is full of those huge social housing blocks. However, most of them are made of brick unlike commieblocks ;)

It still looks like a commieblock though. Lots of US cities have them.

^^ Yep most older large cities got those when they built public housing from the '30s through the '70s

^^There are beautiful suburbs though :)

By the way, it's almost time for 3rd thread about the US.

Yes, the first 3rd thread. So the US is still the most popular subject in Highways & Autobahns. :)

The Chinese thread was the first one to get a second AFAIK :)

The Chinese thread already existed before Highways & Autobahns was realized. I'm not sure if this forum was created in early 2006 or 2007... At least it's (one) of the youngest in Infrastructure & Mobility but growing quite fast, mostly thanks to central/eastern European topics. I hope other territories also get some attention. :)

previous thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=604931)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Eisenhower_Interstate_System.svg/600px-Eisenhower_Interstate_System.svg.png

Thread # III! (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=742508)

Some of the last posts:

What I see happening in Washington sometime is a cop who hides in the freeway median (like under an overpass or something). Drivers drive by seeing the cop at last second and brake really hard, so the people behind them brake even harder to slow down, and the people behind them brake even harder, and so on. Pretty soon the flow of traffic goes down like 20 mph because of the stupid cop.

American cops do nothing more than impede traffic flow.

Very accurate description for Washington cops, indeed. Especially, if you compare how California cops and Washington cops make traffic stops. In California, after they pull someone over, they tell the driver over the PA to pull into the parking lot or a quiet side street in order not to impede the traffic flow. In Washington, on the other hand, they stop drivers in the middle of the lane just metres away from the entrance to the parking lot and do their business for 5-10 minutes making all traffic to occupy half of the opposite lane :ohno:

And face the political wrath of millions of drivers who will pull out of their political stupor and start writing congresspeople/state legislators. It happened in the case of New Rome, OH, when they (admittedly in a revenue trap) enforced every traffic law in the book (most of which are as stringent as any European law), leading to such an outcry that the state legislature revoked the town charter and had the town next door forcibly annex the territory.

There has been mounting pressure on the Texas state legislature to do something about the overaggressive enforcement of traffic regulation in many small towns; even the Republican (generally pro-police enforcement) platform this year has a plank opposing this sort of thing.

In local settings, popular opinion still matters on this sort of thing, and since the US is a federal state with much local control, coming up with a legal solution is not going to work that well.

(RE: Pullman; that's a college town. Aggressive enforcement is tolerated because of concerns about drunk driving and drug use, not to mention non-student neighbors wanting to suppress a party culture as much as possible. Ask a professor if they worry about being pulled over; in all likelihood, they can get away with anything short of murder on the road. When I was in school, one of my professors was pulled over and blew a .25 % BAC. The cop merely escorted him home and admonished him over driving at that level of intoxication. That's opposed to a friend of mine who blew a .09% and got thrown in jail for the night and had to cough up $2500.)

I-95 in New York City
http://i37.************/11b68tx.jpg

I personally think police agencies around the country should tune down speed limit enforcement(especially those on freeways at night), and concentrate on other violations like hogging up the left lane when the right lanes are free.

"We can't do that. We won't have money then!"

That's boll*cks, raise the gas tax.

"secret" NSA exit :)

http://i36.************/29qi0z8.jpg

is it so secret ur not gonna tell us where that is? ;)

^^:rofl:

No Such Agency

It's the government agency that listens in on your phone calls and monitors (along with the FBI) any organization that advocates (no matter how peacefully) progressive social and economic changes.

It's the government agency that listens in on your phone calls and monitors (along with the FBI) any organization that advocates (no matter how peacefully) progressive social and economic changes.

As in stick to one woman? :lol:

Well, I'm going to see if I can come up with something and send it to our next senator, just to see if citizen's voices are actually heard.

But that exit isn't even on an interstate, it's on the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, a National Park Service road. It parallels I-95 several km to the southeast.

:lol:

Mike

A 2 km long section of I-99 opened over Skytop (at the crest of Bald Eagle Ridge) just west of State College, PA on Thursday, 2008-10-30, with two lanes (1x2) now available for use. Completion of this section was delayed about three years when a sizable deposit of highly acidic iron pyrite (upwards of 1 million m^3) was discovered and had to be removed and cleaned up. The other two lanes should be open by the end of November.

See:
http://www.centredaily.com/116/story/935167.html

:dance:

Mike

^^

They say that, but I'm pretty sure the real reason was an excuse to shuffle more federal cash toward Pennsyltucky.

Freakin' I-99. I'm not one of those rabid anti-pork types but this was about as blatant as it gets.

HAWC1506, congratulations on rejecting Dino Rossi and defeating Initiative 985! :banana: These elections, Washington state has shown its progressive side on all accounts :)

HAWC1506, congratulations on rejecting Dino Rossi and defeating Initiative 985! :banana: These elections, Washington state has shown its progressive side on all accounts :)

Why thank you :] :cheers: It was truly a memorable election. I would call it America's Great Awakening of the 21st Century. I am very very happy that people in Washington has been shaken up by current problems and has finally come to their senses. I can't wait to see what will happen next year.

Hopefully, we'll start to see some real motorways in Washington haha

Why was the "Initiative 985" rejected?

* Opening HOV/carpool lanes to all vehicles during non-peak hours, where "non-peak" is defined as any time outside of 6-9am and 3-6pm on Mondays through Fridays.
* Requiring local governments to synchronize traffic lights on heavily-traveled arterials and streets.
* Clearing out accidents faster with expanded emergency roadside assistance, which would be funded by vehicle sales tax revenues.
* Restricting toll usage such that they can only be used on the freeway or bridge being tolled, with any surplus revenue to be redirected to other congestion relief efforts in the state.

Seems like a good idea to me.

Several Interstates closed due to blizzards:

A wintry blast of punishing wind and close to 4 feet of snow in places pummeled the Northern Plains on Thursday, stranding unknown numbers of motorists for a day or more and knocking out power to thousands.

State officials said some people could be without power for days, but they had a simple message for anyone thinking of trying to drive in western South Dakota's blizzard: Don't.

A long stretch of Interstate 90 was closed, and Rounds said most of the dozens of vehicles stranded along the stretch of highway had not been moved. Some have been stranded for more than 24 hours, he said, adding that search teams can't get to them because of zero visibility.

"We cannot see a thing in many areas where we're out actually searching for people," said Tom Dravland, state Public Safety secretary, who added that the top speed for some rescue crews was as little as a half-mile per hour.

In some towns, residents reported drifts were blocking their doorways, and in the southwestern corner of the state, 20-foot snowdrifts were reported on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

The storm also closed Interstate 80 in eastern Wyoming and western Nebraska.

Why was the "Initiative 985" rejected?

* Opening HOV/carpool lanes to all vehicles during non-peak hours, where "non-peak" is defined as any time outside of 6-9am and 3-6pm on Mondays through Fridays.
* Requiring local governments to synchronize traffic lights on heavily-traveled arterials and streets.
* Clearing out accidents faster with expanded emergency roadside assistance, which would be funded by vehicle sales tax revenues.
* Restricting toll usage such that they can only be used on the freeway or bridge being tolled, with any surplus revenue to be redirected to other congestion relief efforts in the state.

Seems like a good idea to me.
You obviously didn't drive on Seattle's motorways during the so-called "off-peak" hours :lol: They can be jammed like hell at any random time of the day. Tim Eyman argued that since everyone pays taxes, HOV lanes must be open for everyone. He wrote that he felt bad for all those lonely drivers sitting in a traffic jam next to the free fast lane used by those lucky bastards who managed to scramble an extra person. Yeah, lonely drivers' rights were violated :ohno: :lol: Well, welcome to the 21st century. Waste is discouraged and conservation is encouraged. That's why we have HOV lanes.

I-985 would also divert the funds from public transit projects to widen motorways and synchronise the traffic lights. Again, it's a 21st century in which many countries are switching from individual driving to public transport, and the Washington government is intended to move along the progress. Diverting money from public transit to encourage driving is a giant step backward. Plus, Eymans' plans would still end up with $600 million deficit.

Chris, it seems that you don't favour public transportation and quite like to engage in rather long distance joy rides, so you may not get the point I am trying to make.

I didn't know about the funding. But the synchronizing of traffic lights is a good idea for instance, that doesn't cost a lot of money.

US-85 in South Dakota between mile 56.57 and 87.47

Report:

Road conditions as of 4:16 AM CST on Friday, November 7: snow covered; scattered snow drifts; winter maintenance suspended; NO TRAVEL ADVISED. Actual road conditions may vary from this report. Motorists are cautioned to be alert to changing conditions.

I-90 is closed for 332 miles! (534 km)

I-90 in South Dakota between mile 84.24 and 110.98

Report:

ENFORCED ROAD CLOSURE; ROAD CLOSED on I-90 between milepost 0.00 and 332.17 from 1:45 AM CST on Thursday, November 6, 2008 until further notice. Road conditions as of 5:42 AM CST on Friday, November 7: deep drifting snow; snow drifts; visibility less than one half mile; scattered blowing snow; ROAD BLOCKED. Actual road conditions may vary from this report. Motorists are cautioned to be alert to changing conditions.

The Netherlands: sunny, few clouds, dry, 12C/54F :D

Service station on the left with an ill-advised attempt at hiding a cell phone tower...
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1159/1031571309_649c39db19_o.jpg

That is actually a picture of the Hutchinson River Parkway in Westchester County in New York state... which admittedly becomes the Merritt when it crosses the state line nearby, so I can see how you arrived at that.

CT Route 15-- the Merritt Parkway (in Fairfield County) and the Wilbur Cross Parkway (its extension into New Haven County) has been my back yard (more or less; a large regional mall separates us from the road) for most of my life. IMNTLBHO it is the textbook definition of a parkway: part highway, part parkland (though it's illegal to actually picnic along the shoulder).

Here's a book that explains how the Merritt came into being. (http://www.amazon.com/Merritt-Parkway-Bruce-Radde/dp/0300068778/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226078631&sr=1-1) I'm reading it now; there are lots of pictures of its construction and of the Art Deco designed bridges that fly over it.

It's the government agency that listens in on your phone calls and monitors (along with the FBI) any organization that advocates (no matter how peacefully) progressive social and economic changes.

And I do hope you thank them in their efforts to protect the country.

Here are 2 shots of Palisades Parkway I made this summer:


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6619/p1000366po2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9721/p1000367to3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



It's the most scenic route I've driven in the NYC area. It runs through thick forests, there are trees in the median, old, beautiful bridges and the pavement is very good compared to NY standards :crazy2:


http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/4495/p1000435ib5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



...and here's one of Garden State Parkway. The road itself looks very different in different sections. In urban NY area it is just another concrete monster with up to 12 lanes in total. In the NJ costal section it is 2x4 to divide into 2 express + 3 local for about 25 miles long section. Finally, it goes into scenic 2x2 with a 100m wide forest median :cheers:

Is the Arroyo Seco Parkway in Los Angeles, CA technically a Parkway?

I ask this beacuse it has a state route/freeway number on it (110)

and well...over in Southern California there are no parkways just freeways.

Maybe that's not the case if the 110 is truly a parkway.

Parkways are not necessarily freeway grade roads.

ah ok...interesting. THX!

...and here's one of Garden State Parkway... In urban NY area it is just another concrete monster with up to 12 lanes in total.

Actually, even in northern NJ, the Parkway is much more scenic than the other highways. The rustic color barriers and signposts give it an older feeling, and 7/8 of the time it is surrounded by trees. Plus the speed limit is 65 mph, which only is allowed in New Jersey in rural areas.

The Blue Ridge Parkway runs through the Appalachian Mountains, specifically the Blue Ridge, and spans North Carolina and Virginia. It is the longest and narrowest National Park in the world. It is also world famous for its beauty with such sites as the Linn Cove Viaduct, Linville Falls, Mt. Mitchell, Maybry Mill, Pilot Mt., and numerous small farms.


Blue Ridge Parkway

Linn Cove Viaduct
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3065/2928548031_2a36c0f1e7.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/390623783_3bfc9d8a53.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurtkonrad/2928548031/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/phatmax95/390623783/


Linville Falls
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/56163425_9fb88d607e.jpg?v=0 http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1338/1142851671_2682fed74f.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gwblack/56163425/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/djbiesack/1142851671/


Mount Mitchell
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3076/2725386692_32301b3fb2.jpg?v=0 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/2358756648_72c77cf36e.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobistraveling/2725386692/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/24949682@N05/2358756648/


Mabry Mill
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/67/212122428_a5bacf0dbf.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/2892381225_ebbece4f7f.jpg?v=1222561726
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hitmanjf/212122428/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jstephenconn/2892381225/


Pilot Mountain
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2815988228_308b620c3e.jpg?v=0http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/2062722823_0de1bac16c.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snapdraggin/2815988228/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/melissambwilkins/2062722823/

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/2517474837_1ef8474346.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/larrysphatpage/2517474837/


Blue Ridge Parkway Stone Arch Bridges
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1371/1119525081_ad537054cb.jpg?v=0http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1371/1120362620_5f98dd4aae.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48465793@N00/1119525081/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/48465793@N00/1120362620/

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2394/2452595217_9a08103dac.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/55/108545910_c734ae2ea8.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12152206@N03/2452595217/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddiehuff/108545910/

I didn't know about the funding. But the synchronizing of traffic lights is a good idea for instance, that doesn't cost a lot of money.

It is already being done in several cities. There are cities that need them, and others that don't need to. It would be money down the drain to try and synchronise lights in let's say...Yakima, where traffic volume is low and flows nicely already.

Eyman used his own personal judgement to support his initiative, with absolutely no support or input from state transportation engineers. He is not a professional engineer and has not been trained in this field. Therefore, personally I do not think he has the credibility to make judgements on how the interstate is run. You can have opinions (like most of us on this forum), but you cannot put yourself above professional traffic engineers.

If passed, HOV lanes would be opened to all traffic not only during non-peak hours, but also during MOST of the peak hours. In addition, federal funding for Washington state would also have been cut because the direct-access HOV ramps on the left side of the freeway are only approved for carpool traffic (to minimise the effects of having a left-side exit). So if the carpool lane is opened up, the feds may decide to cut funds for many HOV projects, which is a stupid move because Washington desperately needs infrastructure improvements.

Oh by the way, check out these bridge supports for a new arterial overpass over I-405 in Bellevue.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3060/2985219370_b776bce6c9.jpg?v=0

Correct me if I'm wrong please. But I understood that Parkways are basically freeways but without Interstate standards??? Is that correct???

Correct me if I'm wrong please. But I understood that Parkways are basically freeways but without Interstate standards??? Is that correct???
Not necessarily, for example the Blue Ridge and Natchez Trace Parkways are two-lane roads with intersections.

Mike

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/4495/p1000435ib5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



...and here's one of Garden State Parkway. The road itself looks very different in different sections. In urban NY area it is just another concrete monster with up to 12 lanes in total. In the NJ costal section it is 2x4 to divide into 2 express + 3 local for about 25 miles long section. Finally, it goes into scenic 2x2 with a 100m wide forest median :cheers:
Interestingly, 'commercial traffic' (Lorries, etc) is *PROHIBITED* on the busy NYC suburban part of the GSP (north of NJ 18) and is allowed on the more rural southern part (south of NJ 18).

Mike

Very beautiful photos. It must be pure delight to drive on Parkways.

Interesting map I found:
http://www.theatlantic.com/images/issues/200803/win-large.gif

Very beautiful photos. It must be pure delight to drive on Parkways.

Not when they're jammed (many in the northeast get very busy), but yes, they can be a real pleasure at times. Especially the sections where trucks are not allowed.

Interesting map, Chris. LA is quite bad.

Peachtree City Parkway:

http://i33.************/295rdq0.jpg

The map is taken from the DLM. :D

Yes it is, Verso :)

The map is taken from the DLM. :D
DLM? Are there any more of as interesting maps as this one?

^ There are all sorts of maps there, mostly of long-lost European wannabe empires and similar amusing stuff. :lol:

^ There are all sorts of maps there, mostly of long-lost European wannabe empires and similar amusing stuff. :lol:
Ok, nice. :)
But what exactly is that DLM?

edit.

DLM on SSC (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74)

Not necessarily, for example the Blue Ridge and Natchez Trace Parkways are two-lane roads with intersections.

Mike

Thanks for the answer.
So, then Parkways, or the majority of Parkways are incomplete freeways???. With interchanges in some areas but with traffic lights in others?.
Sorry for asking so much, is just that watching the images of parkways, some of them look exactly like freeways, or for me some of them look like freeways with trees in the middle and in the sides. I mean what is the rule for call one road a parkway instead of a freeway, expressway or boulevard???

Thanks for the answer.
So, then Parkways, or the majority of Parkways are incomplete freeways???. With interchanges in some areas but with traffic lights in others?.
Sorry for asking so much, is just that watching the images of parkways, some of them look exactly like freeways, or for me some of them look like freeways with trees in the middle and in the sides. I mean what is the rule for call one road a parkway instead of a freeway, expressway or boulevard???
From my experience there are no rules for naming roads in USA :D

A parkway is more an historic thing. They were constructed from the 1920's (sometimes before) as scenic recreational routes in and around New York City. They are now freeway-grade commuter routes. However, some parkways always remained scenic and recreational in rural parts of the country.

DLM on SSC (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74)
bedankt ;)

A parkway is more an historic thing. They were constructed from the 1920's (sometimes before) as scenic recreational routes in and around New York City. They are now freeway-grade commuter routes. However, some parkways always remained scenic and recreational in rural parts of the country.

Thanks, Now it's clear. It must be awesome to drive in that beautiful scenic roads. I use to drive in Texas, but I've never seen scenic routes like those parkways of the images. I drove once on Wurzbach Pkwy in San Antonio, but it was more like an incomplete freeway than a Parkway like those in the images all you guys posted.

Peachtree City Parkway:

http://i33.************/295rdq0.jpg

OMG, that's so not a real parkway. They just call it that because it sounds better. It's nicer in Peachtree City itself, though. But then, the whole city is nice if you like that sort of thing.

It's not as hideous as "Cobb Parkway," though :ohno:

The Ronald Reagan Parkway is a real parkway, right down to the no-trucks restriction. Here are some photos. These are taken from http://www.southeastroads.com/ronald_reagan_parkway.html -- here's the Google Maps link (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&ll=33.891507,-84.066353&spn=0.076947,0.144196&z=12). The photos are taken headed westbound.

This road is only about three miles from my house, but I still haven't gotten around to posting the millions of other road photos I've taken, so these will have to do.

http://www.southeastroads.com/georgia999/ronald_reagan_pkwy_nb_exit_001_03.jpg

http://www.southeastroads.com/georgia999/ronald_reagan_pkwy_nb_exit_005_01.jpg

As you can see here, this parkway wasn't designed with space for adding more lanes. It's fairly heavily traveled (30,000 vpd or so), but never congested since it's all but physically impossible for too many cars to get on it at any one time. :)
http://www.southeastroads.com/georgia999/ronald_reagan_pkwy_nb_exit_005_04.jpg

The original concept for Ronald Reagan Parkway was for a mostly at-grade road with a grade separation for topographical reasons at Five forks Trickum Road. but as the concept developed, interchanges were added until it ended up as fully controlled access. At one point I asked about where the various interchanges would be and I was told that the intersection at US 29 (photo below) would definitely be at grade. Well, it isn't, is it? Once construction began in earnest I saw why the US 29 crossing was the last to get an interchange: an immense amount of blasting was required.
http://www.southeastroads.com/georgia999/ronald_reagan_pkwy_nb_exit_006a_02.jpg

^^ Pretty. :) If a parkway is freeway-standard, is there the "freeway entrance" sign at its entrances?

^^ Pretty. :) If a parkway is freeway-standard, is there the "freeway entrance" sign at its entrances?

That only really exists on the West Coast, so most likely, no.

That only really exists on the West Coast, so most likely, no.

^^Correct.

The Reagan was originally open to pedestrians and cyclists, but within a week of its opening a well-regarded high school principal was struck and killed while cycling there, so non-motorized traffic was banned.

But once a year it's closed for "Run The Reagan," a popular footrace. The parkway is almost exactly 10k long.

The Reagan was originally open to pedestrians and cyclists, but within a week of its opening a well-regarded high school principal was struck and killed while cycling there, so non-motorized traffic was banned..

Wow. I don't know much about this parkway, but looking at those pictures I can't imagine allowing pedestrians and bikes on there. Where were they supposed to be? On those shoulders?- that's insane. If that's what they wanted, why didn't the build a parallel paved trail for bikes and walkers?

^^ Pretty. :) If a parkway is freeway-standard, is there the "freeway entrance" sign at its entrances?

I don't think there is a nationwide standard for parkway signage or any other specifics like there is for interstate highways. Each state might have a set of standards for parkways, but I kinda doubt that one too. :) The BRP has nice entrance signs - the blue ones. There are a variety of other sign types to inform drivers that they are on the BRP.

I'm not so sure that the Blue Ridge Parkway has intersections with local roads as someone said earlier. That is the purpose of many of the hundreds of stone bridges along the Parkway - they cross above existing roads rather than intersecting them.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/2887469349_939c2bf507.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/78484902_ff77961f6e.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scowltek/2887469349/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/taillear/78484902/


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/394677268_69dbd46b50.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/79811754_2308817bfa.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alltheparks/394677268/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/38238652@N00/79811754/


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/3003497489_d3fa40e576.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/llnesinthesand/3003497489/


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3259/2448235805_789018d8e7.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2993795093_ac8651478f.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rpchurch/2448235805/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/packman68/2993795093/


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/2964922036_4b3476b7f3.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/2811724540_d65f91d2cb.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/naturenut46/2964922036/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/29133926@N04/2811724540/


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3128/2893414073_caa2ca7f61.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/2810545401_feb1f72f1f.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52491929@N00/2893414073/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/29133926@N04/2810545401/

"Parkway" is a very popular roadway designation in Atlanta. The only requirement is that the road must be among the ugliest and cluttered in town. :) There are a handful of Atlanta parkways that are pleasant looking (Freedom, South Fulton, Camp Creek, Reagan, Langford, etc), but I would say the majority of them are hideous.

Streets with bad reputations are sometimes renamed ________ Parkway to try and improve the street's image.

Freedom Parkway
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2193/2146777083_b3b8718ae3.jpg?v=0http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2407/2146775451_675f5b55ca.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hipperspective/2146777083/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/hipperspective/2146775451/


Cobb Parkway
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/109/301420827_bfe6b791ea.jpg?v=0http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/2050522059_33ff4db141.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bratec69/301420827/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/john-p/2050522059/


Langford Parkway (formerly Lakewood Freeway)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/108/269916203_ba5b1b70c4.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaredswafford/269916203/


University Parkway (Atlanta to Athens)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/2695933063_4b6f3bf023.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lonelypilgrim/2695933063/


Metropolitan Parkway (formerly Stuart Ave)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/199/506387449_1c5fbcce7f.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/467912681_f0f7059698.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/felendzer/506387449/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/scarletjones/467912681/in/photostream/


Sugarloaf Parkway
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/2640279183_325da323f5.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/2640280693_1983057d5c.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20705353@N00/2640279183/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/20705353@N00/2640280693/in/photostream/


Riverside Parkway
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3057/2555400354_2e5c0150c4.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ironchapman/2555400354/


Cynthia McKinney Parkway
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/39/79864413_d5d3c4a8f4.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/richmintz/79864413/

Nice. Aren't parkways supposed to be beautiful by default? (park is beautiful)

Nice. Aren't parkways supposed to be beautiful by default? (park is beautiful)

They SHOULD be...but I guess if an old dirt road wants to be called a parkway, it can be. :)