Caw said we should have one and I completely agree. So any comments/suggestions on Berlin Wall's, evil bus stations, crappy hotels, badly placed offices, mobile toilets, fountains that dont squirt water, putting tram stations underground etc... in here :)

Fucking 3 metre daisies for 2 months... I despair, I really do...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/caw123/PB090047cdopy.jpg

Our beloved gardens........

It can look quite pleasing in the right light. Shame it smells.

If I am right isn't there a very nice statue of Queen Victoria here.

I was quite impressed when I came across that a couple of years ago.

do these daisies have a hose attached and water splashes out and they wobble and shake like the ones outta Argos? the chavs have even more room to wash now!!! eww

I got a nice garden. It's coming on nicely. The ferns are doing well, the cyclamen are coming through, and the mallow is still in bloom. This winter I plan on buying a job lot of heather then moving some plants around and maybe losing the old greenhouse. I was at Jewson's this morning buying paving slabs and stuff, I've got four tons of rock on order, and I'm thinking hard about what shape the pond is going to be. Anyhow. I know about gardens, and what makes gardens look good.

Jeez. What happened here then?

Couple of things, Piccadilly Gardens used to be a shit heap and anyone who said they werent is a sweet Manc romantic. On the whole its 100 times better now but still has its bad points, but at least you can walk through now past 4pm without the fear of being bum raped.

As for the Berlin Wall, yes its wrong, totally wrong............Can they not just do an alabrate waterfall for them, and at night turn on some different coloured lights on behind the water, that might work surely?

As for Number 1 Picadilly Gardens..........................dog shit. But no doubt we'll grow to like it, and it still gives the impression of the Gardens being cut off from the rest of town, its purpose surely, and Portland Street looks more important now its there.

Should we rise to a people's revolt, and take our pix axe's to the Berlin Wall and start knocking it down, like they did at the end of 80's in Berlin?

the wall is not a bad idea.. its just a shite wall...

Lighting, as TheGrand mentioned, can totally transform this when viewed at night... i mean a deep blue or deep red would look exciting....

But can the wall not be more ornate, or covered in plants of something... it looks liek it should be dripping in vineage....

or maybe turn it into an art display wall of some sorts.... if we can have adverts everywhere, then we can display flat art... crown the top with a whole load of sculptures.. i dunno

Should we rise to a people's revolt, and take our pix axe's to the Berlin Wall and start knocking it down, like they did at the end of 80's in Berlin?


The idea of a wall is a good idea, as it makes the gardens more separated from the city. It justs looks horrid.

Like I said, jazz it up, not knock it down

the wall is not a bad idea.. its just a shite wall...

Lighting, as TheGrand mentioned, can totally transform this when viewed at night... i mean a deep blue or deep red would look exciting....

But can the wall not be more ornate, or covered in plants of something... it looks liek it should be dripping in vineage....

Yes,,but instead it's dripping in pidgeon shit,,it need to be knocked down asap.

Yes,,but instead it's dripping in pidgeon shit,,it need to be knocked down asap.

Ok, knock it down, and open the Gardens up to the tram and bus station :eek2:

any pics?? i love pidgeon shit!

I actully like the gardens design,, apart from that wall and the coffee shop thig next to it, its just boring bare plaster , it looks so shit esp when it's been pissing down.
The gardens would be vastly improved with if the paths were lined with tree's and bushes.
I also think that if the Debenham's building and all them lovely building's that house Primark on that row were sandblasted to make them shine more, that would also make the place more inviting.

But the best thing that would improve that area would be to tranfer half of all the buses that go there to other parts of the city,, there is no need what so ever for them to terminate and start from Piccadilly.

And i dont know if anyone else as noticed ,but im sure them trees that were planted , inbetween the garden's and Market St are dead .

I actully like the gardens design,, apart from that wall and the coffee shop thig next to it, its just boring bare plaster , it looks so shit esp when it's been pissing down.
The gardens would be vastly improved with if the paths were lined with tree's and bushes.
.

Thats why they should be jazzed up with lights and water features or whatever, getting rid of the Berlin Wall Experience.

As for more bushes and trees, you mean turn it back to what it was, a no go area after dark.

The wall issue can be readdressed easily without having to redesign the area for the third time in 5 years

I actually quite like this square, and with a little love and attention the wall could actually look really nice. You're right to say the area needs more greenery, but then, what area doesn't!

I really like the gardens themselves - especially in summer when people play in the fountains. Some of the buildings need a good clean though - Nobles Amusements for example.

Agreed about the wall - it needs something doing. Isn't it supposed to be a sculpture though? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

I disagree with the popular opinion about No1 Picc gardens. It is a real quality building and sets the space off well.

The Berlin Wall needs to go. And the Piccadilly Hotel of course.

Then the Gardens would be great! :)

I like the wall. Its elegant and well proportioned but would undoubtedly be better suited to a genuinely lush green environment in which Todao Ando's buildings are seemingly intended for. If you consider the backdrop of the clean concrete lines of the Plaza that rises up above it then its actually a pretty appropriate building for the present day "gardens".

As Ive said time and again, its the buildings that define the space that are a problem as much as the gardens. Look at this image:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/caw123/PB090047cdopy.jpg

In the background you've got Debenhams providing a really strong and well defined frontage to the top end of Market Street. Passing through into the gardnes you have 5 higgledy piggledy little buildings providing no kind of enclosure to a vastly bigger and more important space.

Ideally what you would need is one or two, large buildings which carry on the bulk, massing and height of the Debenhams building to properly define and create that sense of place to Piccadilly Gardnes. In fact they should be a few stories taller so as to reinforce the importance of this large open space.

Across the other side of the gardnes, Piccadilly Plaza needs similarly radical treatment in order to provide that same sense of enclose from that side too. By all means knock down the wall, relocate the bus station but until the built environment reflects the space that it is supposed to be providing a boundary and enclosure to, then Piccadilly Gardens will remain an unloved, unplesant place to be.

Look at the features of Albert Square and Exchange Square - both hugely popular and successful spaces. What makes them so? Its not only about the space - of equal importance are the buildings that create that space.

how can people who complain about the busses hate the wall, the wall sheilds you from the busses!

Trees would do better.

trees don't stop the noise and fumes. I do like the water fall idea though :)

I like the wall. Its elegant and well proportioned but would undoubtedly be better suited to a genuinely lush green environment in which Todao Ando's buildings are seemingly intended for.

You're right but the structure would have been better placed in a green garden and not a concrete one. They should landscape it with a few hills and temporate rain forest flora and then put a big iron fence around it at night and close it to keep the lowlife out.

Sounds good, Isaac.

Walls are usually good in a garden, they give it structure and interest. They're best when they're stone and overgrown. And worst when they're bare bleak concrete.

SleepyOne: As a gardener I'd say I couldn't do anything about those buildings because they aren't in my garden. Imagine it's a house across the way. So I'd plant a line of trees to hide them. But what do we see? A gap.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/caw123/PB090047cdopy.jpg

Did I dream this or is there a Big Screen going up above the Bus Station on top of the plaza building?

That's what it looks like anyhow :)

Did I dream this or is there a Big Screen going up above the Bus Station on top of the plaza building?

That's what it looks like anyhow :)
I was there last night and it just looked like a load of scaffolding. I couldnt see any screen but I'll be in town tonight so i'll have a look.

The frame of the screen is there now. Not sure how long before its completed. Also, judging the angles, only the top half of the screen is gonna be visable from the far ends of the bus platform. Not the best.

Anyone know who's behind the screen?

Watch it be a big bus giant timetable *sighs*

I recon it will be another one of them BBC tv things.

Spacepostman: have a look at the City Tower thread. I don't know who's paying for the screen. Maybe Bruntwood.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=236929&page=21&pp=20

This is what I think a nice garden should look like:

http://www.rhs.org.uk/chelsea/2005/exhibitors/show_gardens/complete/Bradstone.jpg

However some people have different ideas. And even trainspotters think they're daft.

http://www.page27.co.uk/nwales/news/nw0401.htm

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/charlie.hulme/board/ch2801-1002.jpg

"Note Manchester's replica of the Berlin Wall which city planners consider a suitable replacement for the gardens and flowerbeds previously visible from this position".

Anybody got a picture of that wall with graffiti?

oh for fooks sake! the old gardens was a dump that attracted tramps and lowlifes and stunk of piss and sick! the new gardens are much better (appart from the hideously benign no 1) the wall helps the new gardens feel more peacefull by blocking the bus station and the fountian does actualy work most of the time and is quite good. i prefer the new gardens, they are very well used in the summer.

as for a radical overhaul of piccadilly, that does sound like a good idea, move the busses to a shudehill type interchange, create an iconic landmark, a new square or something...

The old gardens really were a mess.

The Plaza is getting 2 LCD screens fitted, one by the bus stop and another fronting York Street. First they were to be used advertising Bruntwood properties but the last press release I read stated they'd have a live webcam stream of a family of Perregrins (I think) that're living up in the roof of Sunley tower.

Boring! Turn over the channel!!!

A live webcam of these Peregrines. Come on unless its David Attenborough commentating its not going to work.
http://www.ofo.ca/photos/Peregrine%20B.jpg
I saw the frames last night. If the screens are as big as the frame work they are going to be massive.

oh for fooks sake! the old gardens was a dump that attracted tramps and lowlifes and stunk of piss and sick!
Pray tell, what is the difference between then and now?

Awwww its learning to fly! cute!

http://www.piccadillymanchester.com/images/082305access1vbig.jpg
http://www.piccadillymanchester.com/images/082305streetlevel1vbig.jpg
http://www.piccadillymanchester.com/images/082305living1vbig.jpg

The latest addition to the KRO family of bars and restaurants opens at One Piccadilly Gardens on 30 November.

Manchester’s food and drink scene welcomes a newcomer with a great pedigree as KRO Piccadilly opens its doors, bringing the delights of the successful bar and cafe group KRO to the core of the city.

Housed in the ground floor of One Piccadilly Gardens, the landmark development at the centre of the remodeled and rejuvenated Piccadilly district, KRO Piccadilly offers a sophisticated and relaxed environment for breakfast, coffee and cake, a drink after work or dining in style. The addition of permanent external seating, shaded in summer and heated in winter, brings an extra dimension, allowing customers to enjoy the contemporary public gardens.

Managing Director of KRO, Mark Ruby, is understandably delighted to open his latest venture at the heart of Piccadilly.

He said: “Having established our venues on the Oxford Road corridor, we felt it was time to introduce the KRO concept to a whole new clientele. As with all the KRO family, we have given KRO Piccadilly its own unique character, using high quality walnut finishes, marble floors and inviting leather furniture, making it the perfect haunt for any time of day.”

KRO Piccadilly’s manager, Alistair Birdsell, previously of Prague V, agrees that KRO Piccadilly can only add to the current bar culture.

He said: “We know customers are going to love our mix of freshly prepared food, superb coffee and a great selection of wines and beers, all served in friendly surroundings, and we’re sure that the lively weekend vibe will keep them wanting more.”

Danish chef Lorne Andersen, who started at the Danish food centre and more recently has been the executive chef for Manchester United FC, plans to bring a definite flavour of her homeland to the à la carte menu. Signature dishes include Frikadeller (Danish pork meatballs served with new potatoes and red cabbage) and Scandinavian pickled salmon, as well as classic Danish open sandwiches. Breakfast is served with vegetarian options and a fruit platter, main courses range from a hearty Steak and Chips served with black pepper fries and herb butter to Cod Loin wrapped in smoked bacon, presented with roast tomato and red pepper sauce and salt baked new potatoes, while desserts include the Danish specialty Othello Cake, a sweet light sponge with custard and marzipan.

The opening of KRO Piccadilly coincides with the sixth birthday of KRO BAR, the original home of KRO in Manchester on Oxford Road

Yeh if you fancied getting bum raped on the way home and having your clothes robbed from your own back, much better

No no no. I know this debate comes up alot but its all about context.

Seen as Albert Sq gets swamped in car fumes and thus makes it less than ideal, lets dig it up and plonk a shite building there.

The GARDENS were fine. Actually, they were beautiful when they were cleaned up. When the flower arrangements were done up and the Fountain was working, it was such a nice place.

The problem was that because the area as a whole was used as a dumping ground for thousands of working class commuters, Shopaholics and teenage kids, it got a bad reputation. And I bet thats why the tramps ended up resting there. Cause and effect yeh?

Somewhere has to be the most efficient place for a weirdo to carry out his work, and parks generally fit the bill. Piccadilly gardens did too, and did so very well seen as the surrounding area had been so neglected. So does that mean we should dig up and destroy every Victorian park in the UK.

If the Piccadilly/Northern Quarter areas in the mid 90's would have got the interest that they do now, (plus more, ie, sorting out where to relocate the bus terminus); the Gardens would not have had to been destroyed.

Well said Mez.

Just been down for a few drinks at the new kro bar. There now appears to be a whole host of bars, restraunts and cafes around here now and the atmosphere of the place actualy seemed quite pleasent. Can't wait for the summer when all the tables are put outside and i can sit out in the sun drinking my martine's :)

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/ManCCPiccadillyWallPan2306.jpg


I feel I should contribute my tuppenceworth here....but this picture above just sums up the incredible - monumental - ignorance and stupidity of the planners who decided that some concrete carbuncle of absolutely NO intrinsic, functional, aesthetic or architectural worth whatsoever should be plonked right in this strategic position thus completely obscuring any view of the gardens area when approached from the Mosley Street direction. I mean - talk about "sympathetic" planning then eh? All those people who defend the new layout of the gardens can do no worse than to stand themselves in exactly the same position as where this photograph was taken and appreciate for themselves just how beautiful this looks. Add to this the incredible clutter of overhead power cables and support poles (why the need for so many of these and such thick structures at that??) for the Metrolink and you can quickly conclude that this Piccadilly Gardens remodelling, if anything, has arguably created a far uglier end product than the one it replaced.

How about making the concrete walls legaly designated Grafiti canvases?

Agreed Martin. That is just so unspeakably ridiculously dire. Piccadilly Gardens. The bleak windswept Stalineque bunker look. And it cost millions. Cringe. Jesus H Christ. Somebody should be put up against that wall and fucking shot.

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/ManCCPiccadillyWallPan2306.jpg


All that needs is ivy.

All that needs is ivy.

Nah. I still prefer the 'run water down it' idea.

Now, if they made that wall out of a thick reinforced transparent glass-like material (something unbreakable of course) with perhaps some marbled mosaic art engraved inside it and then, say, illuminate it in a changing colour floodlighting scheme at night, perhaps that would be better: at least that way it doesn't create this hideously oppressive cold-war like BOXED IN area to the gardens. It looks so goddamn forbidding. Someone above suggested it was there to either prevent bus fumes from wafting over the garden area or it mght have been part of a design to intentionally have a physical barrier separating this area from the Metrolink that runs directly beihind it, but even so, having it in bare concrete like that is just completely idiotic.
It's just defeated the objective of trying to make Piccadilly Square/Gardens a more attractive and pedestrian-friendly environment anyway. :no:

How about making the concrete walls legaly designated Grafiti canvases?

That is, IMHO, and unbelievably brilliant idea.

Graffiti? That would really take the biscuit. Hey let's dig up the gardens for concrete and graffiti. Jeezus. Sometimes I could weep.

Ivy. Now that's a good idea.

I could weep because it won prizes.

http://www.art2architecture.co.uk/reconnected/piccadilly.htm

Notice that those pics on that site are all nightime pics, showing the lighting, and the ariel pic always looks good. The reality though is that daytime pic, Martin posted above. That's the reality of the wall. Ivy would improve it. The concrete looks so forbiddng.

This Ivy you lot keep referring to, is she a landscape artist by any chance?

i think the wall should be replaced some palm trees or something that gives the city a more continental flavor. if they can have them in the trafford centre then why not piccadilly gardens?

Take away the wall and you still wouldn't be able to see the gardens because they have so very little topography or depth. To be fair, that picture was designed to make the area look bleak, reflecting as it does Aidan's own strongly held opinion.

Personally I think the wall / pavillion is the most design savvy element of the scheme. Gracefully curved, nicely proportioned and housing two decent cafes. I find it quite artistic really - particularly that solitary piece of wall isolated from the rest of the pavillion but continuing its profile. The concrete itself although not really appropriate to such an urban setting is at least in keeping with the clean concrete lines of the dreaded Plaza although I agree the aspect from Mosely Street is less than inviting. No, the real offenders in this whole scheme are the office block and the gardens themselves: Two elements which could really have lifted the whole area seem to have replicated the mistakes of the Plaza by being designed with little consideration for the context in which they sit.

I'm surprised by your opinion, SleepyOne. The picture was designed to make the area look bleak? The wall is the most design savvy? Did I misunderstand you? This is surely the real offender. From the south west side Piccadilly Gardens has been turned into an unfinished concrete bunker.

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/ManCCPiccadillyWallPan2306.jpg

This was our space, left to the people of the city. it was yours....you owned it!!

The real offender is the city council and No1. The land was not the city council's to sell. One of the few pieces of open land in mcr city centre and what did they do?

Change the planning law which enabled them to sell the land, for one of the most uninspired buildings in recent times.While cutting the land in half. idiots.

The pavilion itself, i don't mind. No1, the council and the space thats gone, i do.

Love it or hate it.....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010128.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010129.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010131.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010133.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010127.jpg

And this one is quite frankly rude!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010134.jpg

All from Tuesday

^^ lol No wonder the birds like flocking to him.

Cheers for all your pics today Latic - ;) Congrats for braving the elements.

Love it or hate it.....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Latic12/P1010128.jpg


Love it! fantastic building.

Yeh I....am probably in the minority who like this building..
But like mentioned, I don't think it is the building thats objectable, just the location and importance of the location that upsets folk.

I don't like the type of brick used (would be better suited on a Barrat house, not a prime city centre 'landmark' building), I don't like the way it seems to have been lifted from a Didsbury business park, I don't like the way the building just ends with no thought to how it relates to the metro/plaza side (those ventilation ducts are a disgrace) and I don't like how it's been constructed to give it's office workers a great place to work without for one minute thinking how it'll be perceived from people who don't work there.

A big bag of thoughtless shite. The building would be fine maybe to replace something down Oxford Road, but for Piccadilly Gardens? Piss.

^^ lol No wonder the birds like flocking to him.


:lol:

I didn't even realise what it looked like until I uploaded it!

I quite like One Piccadilly. Sure it's not a landmark building but it looks quite neat, especially now Mana and Kro have moved in.

Agree with the general sentiment: the building isn't too bad, it's just in the wrong place. But dgnr8 hit the nail on the head: put it on Oxford Road or any business park out of town and it woul'd fit quite nicely with that general blandness. At least it isn't as shabby as Piccadilly Plaza, its scruffy neighbour

Indeed. It seems to have it's back to the Thistle Hotel, a disgrace.

Ive just been pondering on where to put a possible replacement bus terminus if it moved from Piccadilly and thought of here! Chorlton st.

Why not? Seriously though. Turn the crappy multistack and ground space carparks into a donga Shudehill stylee interchange.
Ok, there'd be no tram element, bt its only 200 yrds away.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/mezmail/bus.jpg

Ive thought that many times myself Mez, something needs to be done to get the buses away from Piccadilly Gardens, its a nightmare, all the buses can hardly even fit theyre. Even diverting the 42/43's away would make such a difference.

Maybe it's chokka with coaches already, Mez. But it sounds good to me.

http://www.manchester.ac.uk/visitors/travel/bus/

"National Express coaches serve over 1,200 destinations across the UK from the Chorlton Street Coach Station, which is near Piccadilly railway station and a short walk from both University campuses. You can contact the Chorlton Coach Station on: 08705 808080..."

Yeah, something should be done around here. I'm seriously unimpressed with "Manchester Central" (sounds so grand doesn't it?) coach station as it is now called. I can't believe that they only used half of the available space for the coach station. The half looks like shite.

I don't think the surface carpark should be built on though - where would the gays put their fairground at Mardi Gras?!!

Good shout. Most of the buses go down Portland and Princess Streets anyway, so it would be pretty simple for them to use the shitty back of the coach depot. Designed right, you could get five or six stands in there, couldn't you? They should've done this when they did the coach station.

Chorlton St Coach station was redeveloped wasn't it. My memories of it, were of a slightly grotty, creepy place. I haven't visited it since it's redevelopment.

why have they got that big horrible wall there? dont understand that part

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/16/65.jpg

its was better b4

That wall..... I couldn't believe my eyes when i first saw it... and it is probably the most intimidating 'invitation to a nice place' that I could imagine. I don't know what the guy/girl was thinking of when they first visualised it but instead of offering 'community' and 'good-feeling' it provides an aggressive stance on the metro side that severly devalues the visitor experience to the retail on the outside. I would have been gutted if I had seen that going up outside my shop window. I've walked round it a few times and I reckon I'm in the vast majority of people who find it a complete and utter paradox. Its not even a shame, its civic negligence...

I am struggling to think of any justification for it at all, and before any arty types get on - 'debate' is no justification at all where peoples day-to-day lives are concerned. Spend a few bob on Lowry bashed metal cladding and I would lurve it to death however.... at least soften it up.

And while I'm on that wall is a well deserved invitation for vandalism, and if i were pissed up and younger I would be quite content to scrawl 'fuck the system' on it. Criminal. The wall that is....

I like the gardens.

Piccadilly Gardens. Ya gotta larf!

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/ManCCPiccadillyWallPan2306.jpg

Not defending the wall or the gardens, but that picture is nearly 4 years old and the whole place was pretty much a construction site as you can well see and doesn't do the area any justice at all.

I didn't deliberately show an old picture, it's just what came up on Google.

Got a newer one then? From the wall side?

Piccy Gardens recently
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2170003copy.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2280028copy.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2170009copy.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2280029copy.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2280036copy.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2280033copy.jpg

sorry Caw its not your pics but isn't it just a horror show, I absolutely HATE Piccadilly, apart from all the usual suspects ie: plaza, berlin wall etc theres an incredible amount of "street furniture", all sorts of bloody signs and posts and god only knows what else, it really spoils it for me.

Forgive my ignorance as I havn't been to manchester since September, but how long has that atrocity been there? Yes the 3 storey peice of crap next to somerfield on the first pic? How the fuck did that get planning permission. It's completely out of scale and breaks up the roof lines. Disgraceful.

Forgive my ignorance as I havn't been to manchester since September, but how long has that atrocity been there? Yes the 3 storey peice of crap next to somerfield on the first pic? How the fuck did that get planning permission. It's completely out of scale and breaks up the roof lines. Disgraceful.
Not 100% sure but that is a refurbish of an older building. I seem to remember a 'Moorish' styled restaurant occupying that piece of the block.
Lyons Coffee House or summat. It was miles more aesthetic than the present effort.

Its been there at least 18 months jerv! I was a bit disappointed when they demolished the building that stood there before but i have to admit i like the replacement. Its very restrained and clean and it actually picks up the roof line of the building to its left (which is awful!). Sympathetic scaling and materials - nice little number IMO.
Showing your age SMT but it was at any one time the Kardomah cafe, The Tempest (?) Bar and as you say a Lyons Coffee house. Fantastic building inside and out for many years but looked very tatty at the end there - dont understand why it was demolished though.

all the statues look like there wanking

all the statues look like there wanking
I suppose so if you're looking for that sort of thing.... :)

Have you ever noticed that mice don't have any shoulders?

What a place for a scummy somerfield.

Its actually a very nice Somerfield and i have found it to be the perfect place for one on several occasions - you are not one of these 'retail snobs'* are you?

* - bit like a soup nazi.

There's a cracking somerfield in Chorlton, though the Withington one isn't so good.
Not sure those self service ports are as quick as the cashier line mind.

Am i just being old fashioned or isnt it more reassuring to hand over your money to a human? My shoplifting days are well behind me (well sort of...!) but i always feel the desire to nick something when i'm 'filling' my bag up at one of them machines.

...but i always feel the desire to nick something when i'm 'filling' my bag up at one of them machines.

Ha ha!! Me too. But I never used one where there wasn't a supervisor telling you how to use it anyway... so unless its a betamax/vhs kind of retail war, I cant see the point...

Its actually a very nice Somerfield and i have found it to be the perfect place for one on several occasions - you are not one of these 'retail snobs'* are you?

* - bit like a soup nazi.

Yes.

Still, a 'Somerfield'? Not my cup of tea atall. Why not just stick a 'Poundland' there? Also, on Oxford street, we've got some cheapo jipo shop relplacing 'allsports' for the time being, auwfull. A londener/outsider comes to Manchester and see's that on the high street, sure they'll be impressed.

Talking of crap building's that front on to Piccadilly,,,this one one the junction of Lever St ,,the cheap pound shop and the small newsagent,,,that should go.
The Prince of Wales building a bit further up ,that is going is'nt it ?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2280033copy.jpg[/QUOTE]

The Prince of Wales has been earmarked for years but the developer has disappeared. The building on Lever Street will fall down before it is pulled down - stand on lever Street and see how far the roof line sticks out compared to the ground floor - frightening. The newsagent is actually very old late Georgian (of which mcr has very few) but that shouldnt protect it. We are losing georgian buildings at a frightening rate because they are pretty much all like this building and difficult to love.

Thanks for the pictures caw. Did you get one of the berlin wall from the bus terminal side?

25,000 Wall Flowers ‘in Bloom’ at Piccadilly Gardens

Piccadilly Gardens is being transformed into a wall-to-wall flower extravaganza this Easter, with ‘Manchester in Bloom’ bringing a spring-fresh floral fill to our nostrils, launching Manchester’s events season in the process.

Manchester International Arts, famous for bringing Streets Ahead and Garden of Delights to the city, kick off the spring / summer programme with 'Wall Flowers', a visually appealing public art installation using real, fresh flowers to adorn Tadao Ando's striking curved wall in Piccadilly Gardens from 13th to 15th April.

The wall will be transformed into a giant floral display with 25,000 sweet scented pink flowers: roses, gerbera, trailing amaranthus, carnations, oriental lilies and dyed pink eucalyptus. The display is being shaped and arranged into three enormous roses by Jo Vickers, a local artist and respected Senior Lecturer in Fine Arts, along with an array of volunteers.

The piece, entitled 'Wall Flowers', will be prepared over four days in the ground floor of No.1 Piccadilly between Sunday 9th to Wednesday 12th April. Jo Vickers and Manchester International Arts are looking for volunteers to help thread together the giant floral creation and are offering to feed and pay for travel expenses.

Thursday morning will see the giant artwork displayed onto the concrete wall by a series of ropes and nets, and will be on display until that Saturday evening as a vanguard for Manchester's exciting events programme throughout the spring / summer.

On Thursday 13th and Friday 14th a Chinese Flower Workshop run by origami and calligraphy artists will be held on the ground floor of No.1 Piccadilly, and is open to youth groups and passers by inspired with the grandeur of 25,000 pink flowers.

Additional to the Wall Flower display that weekend, the area will also hold organic and flower markets, allowing Piccadilly Gardens to blossom.

Anne Tucker of Manchester International Arts said: "Jo Vickers has developed all sorts of fascinating ways to work with flowers, so we were really keen to work with her on Manchester's first event of the season."

Councillor Mark Hackett, Executive Member for Culture and Leisure said: "Wall Flowers launches Manchester City Council's inspiring season of events that should enthrall and delight both local people and visitors to our city. This is a modern interpretation of the ancient tradition of flower dressing at this time of the year, and is an excellent centrepiece for the launch of Manchester in Bloom."

"Striking curved wall" never heard it described like that before

Exactly, do MCC know that 99% of Manchester resident's hate that fecking wall ,striking my arse

Welcome chatz :)

thanks jerb that sounds pretty cool, why not have something covering [sorry...adorning] it permanently?

It was a good idea to have a barrier between the gardens and bus station but does it have to look UNFINISHED?

Shame they can't keep it covered up. Jeez, a concrete wall, what were they thinking. I wish they'd use the flower money to sort it out properly, but that would be an about face from the arty farty avante gardy set who know what's good for you so it'll never fucking happen. Grrr.

Thanks for the info jrb.

The floral display might be a wake-up call for the council.
When they see how good it will look in a blaze of colour they might think about tarting it up permanently. Knowaddamean like? Think...'Ivy'....

No not her!....

Think...'Ivy'....

No not her!....
:) good one

The floral display might be a wake-up call for the council.
When they see how good it will look in a blaze of colour they might think about tarting it up permanently. Knowaddamean like? Think...'Ivy'....

No not her!....

Ah Ivy! Wasn't too keen on her at first, but she did grow on me...

It couldn't last of course - she was poison in the end. Still, not many in her league...

her lips just got too big for her face in the end ;)

Ah Ivy! Wasn't too keen on her at first, but she did grow on me...

It couldn't last of course - she was poison in the end. Still, not many in her league...
Grrroooooaaaaaannnn......yer not 'ere all bleeding week are yer? :)

her lips just got too big for her face in the end ;)
I think they went septic after the collo job. It gave them a good excuse to let her go imho.
Just think, Diana Dors, Sofia Loren, Marilyn....didn't need need any lip 'enhancements'.

They just had lips like 'eavy duty tires..... :cheers:

Grrroooooaaaaaannnn......yer not 'ere all bleeding week are yer? :)

Take my mother-in-law...no please - take her! :bowtie:

http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_tv/comedians_2.jpg

Jimmy Tarbuck is alive and well

Jimmy Tarbuck is alive and well
I once heard that Pol Pot was funnier than Tarbuck.

probably.

Tarbuck, Boardman, talk about stealing a living, the pissin Germans are still bombing his chippy!

Think Ivy? Think Guerrilla Gardeners!

looks like theyve started putting up a fancy pink-patterned-flower covering on the 'berlin wall' ; looks good at first glance

looks like theyve started putting up a fancy pink-patterned-flower covering on the 'berlin wall' ; looks good at first glance

Thank the stars for that - I hope it doesn't make it look like a retro 60's attempt at urban humor tho... and I hope the art doesn't end up getting listed...

It would be good to commission annual art on that wall, maybe a college project for final year art students at the met.... actually that would be a good idea, like a temporary installation that could be a competition prize.

Nah, the concept is too simple for the system.

its a bloody brilliant idea b4mmy, in fact they could change it every six months, keep it fresh. There could be some brilliant installations like you say.

And some bloody awful ones too.
And after several layers of paint it would all start flaking off everywhere.

And some bloody awful ones too.
And after several layers of paint it would all start flaking off everywhere.

Nah, you could jet wash it easliy enough. Hopefully after a few years the annual wash will knacker its structural integrity and force a warp core breach... eh? Sorry what was that again.....

Warp core breach. LoL.

Nah, you could jet wash it easliy enough. Hopefully after a few years the annual wash will knacker its structural integrity and force a warp core breach... eh? Sorry what was that again.....
Transverse Bulkheads would seem to be the answer :yes:

Urban art :ohno:

It's just fucking tat made up to give a jobless pot head some social standing.

Put some neon advertising or TV screens on but not graffiti.

its a bloody brilliant idea b4mmy, in fact they could change it every six months, keep it fresh. There could be some brilliant installations like you say.

I saw this yesterday and thought exactly the same thing. The flowers installation really lifts the gardens. It could be extended to cover the Cafe Nero thingy elimating all trace of that bloody awful concrete.
It would be good to keep the flowers mosaic idea, as it just sort of hangs off the berlin wall, so there would be no need to keep removing paint and it can be changed quickly and easily.
There's potenital here for this to become a bit of a tourist attraction. You could get all sorts of people to produce designs, from well known art types to school kids.
It should definatley be made a permanent thing IMHO.

cept in Winter obviously

cept in Winter obviously

Then they can use plastic flowers. :wink2:

It's a bit rubbish though. As art. A picture of roses, made of roses.

Well that tells me everything I ever wanted to know about the human condition.

I saw this yesterday and thought exactly the same thing. The flowers installation really lifts the gardens. It could be extended to cover the Cafe Nero thingy elimating all trace of that bloody awful concrete.
It would be good to keep the flowers mosaic idea, as it just sort of hangs off the berlin wall, so there would be no need to keep removing paint and it can be changed quickly and easily.
There's potenital here for this to become a bit of a tourist attraction. You could get all sorts of people to produce designs, from well known art types to school kids.
It should definatley be made a permanent thing IMHO.

Does anyone remember kits you could get as kids where you prepared a clear resin and you could embed stuff in it (like shells and stuff)? It bored me stupid, but I loved the whiff of the resin. Was just wondering could they keep the flowers permanently with some resin?? Alternatively seed flowering vines on the top of the wall that coould drape over it. Basically anything to cover up the concrete would be good.

Flower show is off the wall


SPRING may be well on its way, but in the heart of Manchester it's being given a helping hand by a team of artists who have decorated a wall with a stunning array of flowers.

The colourful artwork, in the heart of Piccadilly Gardens, features 25,000 fresh pink flowers and has been mounted on the garden's curved wall in the shape of three enormous flowers.

Called Wall Flowers, the creation - which features roses, gerbera, trailing amaranthus, carnations, oriental lilies and dyed pink eucalyptus - has been designed to launch the Manchester International Arts Spring to Summer programme.

Stunning

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ContentResources/397.$plit/C_17_Articles_210736_BodyWeb_Detail_0_Image.jpg

It will be the centrepiece for Manchester in Bloom and has already been stunning passers-by and visitors to the city, who have been struck by the sight and the scent of so many flowers. The vibrant display has been put together by local artist Jo Vickers and an army of volunteers.

Anne Tucker, of Manchester International Artists, said: "Jo Vickers has developed all sorts of fascinating ways to work with flowers, so we were really keen to work with her on Manchester's first event of the season."

Today Piccadilly Gardens was also set to host a Chinese Flower Workshop and over the weekend an organic market and flower market.

I imagined this was going to be something quite subtle, but it really is a full on floral display:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/carlf/WallPano2.jpg

What would Mr Ando say?
Keep it brutal - fuck flowers! In fact make it more brutal - get rid of the grass and give me some Louis Kahn type open space!
I love the wall and the wall loves me!
I'm going to say it again-
I LOVE THE WALL!

Im sorry to disappoint you Longford but you're not the only one. I love the wall too.

Nice display though.

Can I take this opportunity to heartily reccommend Barburrito overlooking the Gardens in the 1 Piccadilly Gardens block. Fast, extremely tasty mexican food, great value for money, fantastic service and a nice place.

Im sorry to disappoint you Longford but you're not the only one. I love the wall in its unadorned state too!

I'm not disappointed sleepy - i dont revel in being cantankerous and obnoxious - i just know a world class architect when i see one and i'm proud of the fact that once again Manchester leads the way in getting them first!

I thought you revelled in being the lone dissenting voice? ;)

As nice as the floral display is, I think the council have made a rod for their own back now. I can just see what's going to happen next, once its gone you'll have 'concerned of Chorlton' writing in to berrate the council for taking down the flowers and leaving it in its "horrible unadorned bare concrete state" and imploring them to either have some sort of permanent decoration or else do away with it altogether.

I imagined this was going to be something quite subtle, but it really is a full on floral display:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/carlf/WallPano2.jpg

When was the last time you saw any tourists take a picture of a concrete wall?

Never!

People love flowers, not concrete.(apart from Doka Dan of course :runaway: )

Alternatively seed flowering vines on the top of the wall that coould drape over it. Basically anything to cover up the concrete would be good.

There's all kinds of horticultural things you could do with the wall, but unfortunately nothing that would cover it and flower in our climate, for very long.

This wall gets a lot of undeserving negative attention, and I think it's ok. It does what it says on the packet.

I love concrete (but then again i'm not 'people').
Agree with Sleepy - its almost like admitting defeat and giving in to the mob mentality.

I love it. Looks like graff, but it ain't, it be flowers. And they're lovely flowers. Wait until you walk past them on a sunny day, you may question their existence but you'll be a bit cheerier when doing so. I think they're tops.

I still think we should use the unit walls for funky LCD screen advertising, what with trams coming straight from Piccadilly and buses coming into the station. Perfect advertising opportunity for the council there. Use the wee fliddy wall as a display for local art. Be it those lully flowers or some innovative graffiti (which can be art, to you naysayers), or a local artist who's wanting to display their wares in public. So many opportunties for that bloody wall.

I love the wall in its flower-free state too. It, and the rest of Piccadilly Gardens, remind me of that big square by the station in Barcelona - Plaza de Catalunya?

A friend of mine came up to visit last year and he felt like he was on holiday abroad because that area seemed 'very European'. Which I took to be a good thing.

The Wall Is Art! :wallbash:

Use the wee fliddy wall as a display for local art. Be it those lully flowers or some innovative graffiti (which can be art, to you naysayers)

I'm not a naysayer. My brother's Bob Kipper. Anyone know him?

Unfortunately not High Fi, could you enlighten me? I'm intrigued now, I've got my pants off and everything.

Surely that's more aroused than intrigued? Intrigued would be you had your glasses on.

got to admit it looks a zillion times better with this display, maybe flowers wouldn't work permenantly but something else would.

dg I was gonna say graff yesterday but thought I'd upset people, personaly I love it and think a well placed bit of graff can do wonders to brighten up bare non-descript walls. More of it I say, imagine that wall covered with some 21st century graff art by guys from Paris and London or Manchester[of course].

Keep it brutal - fuck flowers! In fact make it more brutal - get rid of the grass and give me some Louis Kahn type open space!
I love the wall and the wall loves me!
I'm going to say it again-
I LOVE THE WALL!

I guess it's a bit like modern art. Someone puts a dildo on an old matress, shits on it or something, states it's a concept and names it say "third world oppression" and the art critics are slavering over it. Perhaps I'm a Philistine but to me it's some talentless conceptual artist taking the piss (or the crap maybe). The Piccadilly wall may be by a reknowned architect, but the concept is hardly anything revolutionary. The materials are brutal and ugly. Whereas most modern art is kept behind closed doors and the punters have a democratic right to view or not view it, this piece of overpriced brutalist crud is spoiling every Mancunian's view (and day possibly) in the very centre of the city.

It is a natural thing in most people to want to see contrast, proportions, colour and beauty in things. If the wall were a war memorial or a monument to the Holocaust then fair enough, you would expect it to be miserable, lifeless and sombre. It's not any of these things. I like the way it divides off the gardens from the tram stop and buses, but why keep it as uninspiring ugly concrete? It's a elitist concept and flies in the face of the mass of people, who naturally prefer an old master painting full of colour, detail and skill to a shitty old matress called art. Give us colour and detail. Graffiti art, flowers, paintings, LCD displays, adverts - anything except bare lifeless concrete.

I'm all for elitist concepts - the lumpen proles dont give a monkey's about the wall (too busy buying fags, lottery tickets and alcopops) and its just Daily Mail readers who are scared of anything challenging and think England is a Constable painting.
I would rather attempt to 'educate' the people who dont like the wall of its 'concept' and beauty instead of trying to cover it up.
I remember when British Airways changed their livery to loads of groovy 'World' graphics. It was great but I loved it even more when Thatcher publically show she hated when , at the launch, she took a handkerchief out of her handbag and draped it over one of the models to show her 'disgust'. Thatcher was a culturally bankrupt witch and putting flowers on the wall is the equal to her hanky.

I'm all for elitist concepts - the lumpen proles dont give a monkey's about the wall (too busy buying fags, lottery tickets and alcopops) and its just Daily Mail readers who are scared of anything challenging and think England is a Constable painting.
I would rather attempt to 'educate' the people who dont like the wall of its 'concept' and beauty instead of trying to cover it up.
I remember when British Airways changed their livery to loads of groovy 'World' graphics. It was great but I loved it even more when Thatcher publically show she hated when , at the launch, she took a handkerchief out of her handbag and draped it over one of the models to show her 'disgust'. Thatcher was a culturally bankrupt witch and putting flowers on the wall is the equal to her hanky.

Mmmmm? I hated the Thatcher witch as much as anyone - did more damage to this country than anyone I can think of. Yes she was a reactionary, but she hated the BA logo because it was colourful and cosmopolitan, her being a British imperialist and all. The equivalent to the Piccadilly Wall would not be those great world designs that BA came up with, but a tail fin that was just completely blank. I'm all for new designs - it's no design that I can't be doing with. This blank wall is the Emperor's new clothes - everyone knows it's a fraud, but because we are supposed to think that blank harsh concrete is good because it's a famous designer then to admit it's a pile of crap is a "no, no". I read the Guardian not the Telegraph or Daily Mail, but I still want some colour on that fucking wall.

I'm going to sound like a right poncey git here and probably only reinforce my "emperor's new clothes' credentials but I have always liked Ando's work and i like to put the wall in a global context. This is far from his best work but i like to think i 'get' what he does and if you look at his other work the Gardens make sense.
Being a died in the wool Modernist, colour doesnt really come in to it very much with me (colour reeks of post-modernism to me) and i like concrete so the wall ticks my boxes.
Not lumping you in with Thatcher skyman (you are obviously a man of great taste and intellect) just using her to make a point.

Unfortunately not High Fi, could you enlighten me? I'm intrigued now, I've got my pants off and everything.

Very small scale I suppose compared to the other guys. Just did a bit of stuff around Tameside with the odd train thrown in. He did a couple of things at Ashbury's (?) service station on Ashton Old Road and I think the "Egg-Man" has something there now dedicated to him. "Topp's Tee Shirts" also asked him to help do their signage when they had a small shop opposite Debenhams.

He gave it all up when he (mum & dad) were heavily fined!

I'm going to sound like a right poncey git here and probably only reinforce my "emperor's new clothes' credentials but I have always liked Ando's work and i like to put the wall in a global context. This is far from his best work but i like to think i 'get' what he does and if you look at his other work the Gardens make sense.
Being a died in the wool Modernist, colour doesnt really come in to it very much with me (colour reeks of post-modernism to me) and i like concrete so the wall ticks my boxes.
Not lumping you in with Thatcher skyman (you are obviously a man of great taste and intellect) just using her to make a point.

You've got me. I defo prefer post-modernism to the more brutalist modernism stuff. Maybe I lack a certain sophistication that's why I like buildings like the Portland Bldg in Portland OR and our own dear CJC. That said, I'm a sucker for the glass modernist towers like the Seagram, CIS or Beetham (or is Beetham more post modernist than modernist??)

http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Portland_Building.html/cid_1109295603_Portland_Building_noid.gbi

Oh no dear boy - Beetham is very much in the Modernist tradition.
When you said the Portland Bldg i thought you meant Portland house on Portland Street !!!!!!!
I absolutely HATE your Portland Bldg! No offence!
The CJC is an odd one - its not Post Modern or New Modern. Its a bit Hi Tech and its got elements of New Brutalism aswell (are you keeping up at the back?) I suppose cos the architects are Aussies its New World Modernism (ive just made that -ism up but its a good one isnt it?)
i think thats why its so intriguing - its unquantifiable.

I absolutely HATE your Portland Bldg! No offence!

Oh well, horses for courses naturally


and its got elements of New Brutalism aswell

You're scaring me now. I shall need a paracetamol.

The CJC is an odd one - its not Post Modern or New Modern. Its a bit Hi Tech and its got elements of New Brutalism aswell (are you keeping up at the back?) I suppose cos the architects are Aussies its New World Modernism (ive just made that -ism up but its a good one isnt it?)

I thought it was new post post original modern? :dunno:

why not replace the wall with some trees or hedges?

The CJC is an odd one - its not Post Modern or New Modern. Its a bit Hi Tech and its got elements of New Brutalism aswell (are you keeping up at the back?) I suppose cos the architects are Aussies its New World Modernism (ive just made that -ism up but its a good one isnt it?)
i think thats why its so intriguing - its unquantifiable.

It's New Age architecture 'shanks x

Have they fitted the giant dreamcatcher yet?

I thought CJC was structural expressionism or am i way off the mark???

I thought CJC was structural expressionism or am i way off the mark???

I'm tempted to say its nearer Deconstructivism but that would make me sound like a wanker (bit late for that many would say!).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstructivism
Its not strictly Structural Expressionism which i would say would put it closer to Hi Tech (think Foster's and Roger's stuff from the 70's).
Back to The Wall
- this is definitely Critical Regionalism!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Regionalism

I hope you are taking notes because i'll be testing you later.

I'm all for elitist concepts - the lumpen proles dont give a monkeys about the wall (too busy buying fags, lottery tickets and alcopops) and its just Daily Mail readers who are scared of anything challenging and think England is a Constable painting. I would rather attempt to 'educate' the people who dont like the wall of its 'concept' and beauty instead of trying to cover it up. Whoa, Longford, stop. You're out on a limb here. Stop sawing. This is the road to daring avante-garde pink teddy bears. You have to keep listening to what people think and say, not write them off as lumpen proles.

You can educate me as to it's concept and beauty if you like Longy. I consider myself VERY open minded, I have an art and design background and love to see public art/sculptures etc, but I hate this flippin wall.

I'm all for a cultural elite (he says as he is watching You've Been Framed!).
Dont mind listening to the 'people' but we need artists and aesthetes making important decisions and influencing taste.
Does that make me sound like a snob?
Oh well! Never mind eh!

No it just means you have a different opinion

No it just means you have a different opinion

Cant argue with that our kid!
Of course my opinion is far superior to your opinion! :)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/carlf/WallPano2.jpg



Wow - that looks pretty good. I haven't dropped by the place again yet since passing by on Monday last week to see them actually working on the mosaic inside one of the vacant ground floor office rooms at No. 1 Piccadilly. As someone who knows the events organiser Anne Tucker and has participated in many Manchester International Arts events and played a part in a lot of the Streets Ahead performances with various bands over the past few years, I can say that this at least creates opportunities for members of the general public to come along and help out with various temporary urban art installations no matter what sort of materials they may use. There's always a place in every city centre for stuff of this kind - and because it's obviously only temporary, I can't see why so many people get so wound up about it.

People may slate it for being poncey or whatever but at least it does something to nullify the hideous blot on the landscape that is the bare concrete wall unadorned. Perhaps this will be an opportunity to have ever-changing displays of art adorning this wall from month to month - I certainly wouldn't object to that cos at least it does something to lift the area from its relatively soulless existing state.

oh in every way Longford, in every way!

I guess it's a bit like modern art. Someone puts a dildo on an old matress, shits on it or something, states it's a concept and names it say "third world oppression" and the art critics are slavering over it. Perhaps I'm a Philistine but to me it's some talentless conceptual artist taking the piss (or the crap maybe). The Piccadilly wall may be by a reknowned architect, but the concept is hardly anything revolutionary. The materials are brutal and ugly. Whereas most modern art is kept behind closed doors and the punters have a democratic right to view or not view it, this piece of overpriced brutalist crud is spoiling every Mancunian's view (and day possibly) in the very centre of the city. It is a natural thing in most people to want to see contrast, proportions, colour and beauty in things. If the wall were a war memorial or a monument to the Holocaust then fair enough, you would expect it to be miserable, lifeless and sombre. It's not any of these things. I like the way it divides off the gardens from the tram stop and buses, but why keep it as uninspiring ugly concrete? It's a elitist concept and flies in the face of the mass of people, who naturally prefer an old master painting full of colour, detail and skill to a shitty old matress called art. Give us colour and detail. Graffiti art, flowers, paintings, LCD displays, adverts - anything except bare lifeless concrete.
:applause:

Well said skymann.

Except the view it spoils is either the messy tram junction/bus station or the ugly buildings on the north of the gardens. It's hardly pebbledashing St Pauls is it? I'd rather have concrete than adverts, you can disregard it quite easilly if you want to, which you can't really do with a giant picture of a naked annorexic touching herself and selling you jeans.

Having said that I quite like the idea of using it as a changing canvas for public works of art. The flowers were crap, but that doesn't mean that the idea is a bad one. They've already been taken down anyway.

Fair enough. There's room for more than one theme. We could have ivy growing over a stone wall, maybe with a water feature, plus a bar or cafe to break it up a little, maybe some marble/granite with flatscreen TVs, lots of stuff, and the public art. It could be really interesting. Whatever, but I'm definitely not happy with some expensive Emperor's-New-Clothes imposed public "art" that looks like something from an abandoned building site and if you don't appreciate it you're a lumpen prole.

......and if you don't appreciate it you're a lumpen prole.

And an ignorant, cultureless prole at that!

Of course the wall itself could work if they got rid of the bus depo and landscaped that side, if the view wasn't so cluttered around it there's every chance we could appreciate it better. Just a thought.

As it is, I detest it!

You mean bury it, roly? Good idea.

Hey Longford, at least this valuable work of art would would be kept safe and out of harm's way if it was six foot under where it deserved to be. LOL!

Seriously though, all it would take is a bit of ivy, problem solved

But if the art keeps changing it doesn't matter how 'emperor's new clothes' it is because after a coupld of years people who care will be self educated enough to their likes and dislikes to be able to have a decent opinion. If everyone likes it then it isn't doing its job, and as long as it isn't going to be there permanently what's your problem.

The current wall isn't public art, it's part of a scheme to enlose the gardens and shield them from unmoveable transport infrastructure. It's functionalist, which is entirely the opposite of whatever 'dildo art' skymann was going on about. It's by no means perfect, but until someone comes up with a scheme to stop students using busses it's the best we're going to get.

Cher: I meant the wall itself when I was talking about Emperor's New Clothes art. Not the art put on it. See back in the thread or maybe Longford can tell you more, I gotta go now.

Incidentally, I passed through the gardens today in an attempt to get some pics of the "flower wall" and the whole thing appears to have gone already - when was it taken down? Was that it then? Just up for the Easter Weekend? :|

Saint George; slayer of dragons, saviour of damsels, patron saint of England… all round nice guy. So make sure you do the right thing and celebrate St. George’s day at Piccadilly Gardens on the Saturday 22nd to Sunday 23rd April. Robin Hood and King Henry VIII will be there.

Starting from 12pm on Saturday, the St. George’s day festival parade will travel through Miles Platting, finishing at the city centre on Sunday 23rd April. There'll be jousting displays, Morris dancing and costumed market traders selling a selection of fresh produce and themed specialities, including dragon blood pop and dragon soup. Mmm.

The Prince of Thieves himself Robin Hood and his merry Vale Royal Acting Society will be making an appearance, re-enacting ye olde English legend, and knights in armour will be entertaining the crowds with their jousting finesse at Piccadilly Gardens. And if you know of, or are responsible for, a loud mouthed child, there will be a competition to find the loudest young town crier in the city.

The St George's Day parade on Sunday 23rd April features around 40 floats and 500 people dressed as traditional and modern characters from representing diverse English culture. Children from Nicholas Varley School will be in costume as knights and damsels and Rose Queens from all over the city will join the parade.

Festival organiser Jack Bradshaw, who can be spotted in the parade dressed as Henry VIII, escorted by some of his wives (heads attached), said: "We have built up last year's St George's Day festival and parade to bring a bigger and better event that we hope to develop in years to come."

Councillor Mark Hackett, Executive Member for Culture and Leisure said: "The St Georges Day Festival and Parade is a great opportunity for all Mancunians to celebrate the diversity of English culture in our 21st century city."

The St. George's day merriment will be appearing mainly in Piccadilly Gardens from Saturday 22nd to Sunday 23rd April.

clad the wall
glad the wall
glad the wail
glad toe wail
glad toe sail
goad toe sail
goad top sail
toad top sail
toad top fail
turd tip nail

clad the wall
glad the wall
glad the wail
glad toe wail
glad toe sail
goad toe sail
goad top sail
toad top sail
toad top fail
turd tip nail
'ello, bammy must have just had a delivery....

Talking of crap building's that front on to Piccadilly,,,this one one the junction of Lever St ,,the cheap pound shop and the small newsagent,,,that should go.
The Prince of Wales building a bit further up ,that is going is'nt it ?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/caw1234/P2280033copy.jpg[/QUOTE]

It seems your wishes have been granted!
I'm surprised jjb missed this one.
Saw the full PA today - wont tell you what i thought of it being a heritage nazi and all.
Cant be bothered to cut n paste so go and look it up yourself

074427/LO/2005/C2

I think its been mentioned before but no renders were posted. An 8 storey office block to replace the 'falling down' building and its diminutive neighbour I think. Its by Hodder Associates and looked pretty good from the images I saw on the planning application. Big spaces and important streets need to be lined with big and important looking buildings. This application achieves that I think in what is an extremely important location. Anything smaller or any lame attempt to incorporate the smaller building and you would end up with a similar disaster to the 3 storey 'somerfield' building that replaced the old Lyons building fronting the gardens which only serves to undermine the huge space that it fronts onto and weakens the impact of the row of buildings which is supposed to be enclosing the space. I think this proposal therefore is a good thing and Im reassured by the impression I have that Hodder Associates are adept at producing highly competent buildings in sensitive locations to which their Aurora office building on Princess Street is testament.

I'll just say two things on this:
The Georgian building is listed and is going nowhere and
The Hodder building simply isnt good enough for this site. Must do better.

Well the planning application contained a number of black and white 2D drawings which perhaps arn't always the most helpful to convey the quality of the final result. Maybe I wanted to like it given the long standing eyesore status of this corner but what I saw in the application I did quite like.

Regarding the 3 storey building well Id be really disappointed to see this retained. Considering the sheer size of the space that this row of buildings fronts onto and the bulk and scale of other buildings surrounding the gardens I think it is imperative that you have a substantial building on this plot to provide counterbalance to these other buildings together with a sufficiently strong frontage to and enclosure of the space. Good urban design necessitates removing or relocating this building, surely? Shame.

See drawing 23. The 3-storey (presumably Georgian) building is retained, with the new 8-storey block on the left and wrapping around the back. The new building looks OK from the front but not so good from the side IMHO. As far as I can tell - the planning application is lacking information and the drawings don't convey enough.

I too would rather see the 3-storey building go. I think it's wrong to keep something so small, cheap, and crap-looking just for the sake of history. Who voted for that? Who asked the public? Not the self-appointed "Heritage Nazis" hey Longford? This isn't the Town Hall or the Central Library. It's another terraced house, and it's not the sort of building I want to see kept. Most buildings like this were replaced by much better buildings, and it's time this was too. You know, I think Manchester Civic Society should do some kind of survey on this and be prepared to say "lose it". It would earn them some real Brownie Points.

Its too late (i'm the sleepy one!) to get into a discussion about this but for whatever reason whether you agree with it or not the Georgian building is listed and therefore of historical importance. Cityscapes arent just about Town Halls and central libraries. This is a very rare (for manchester) example and the only one of its kind left in Piccadilly/ When reading the historical development of Piccadilly is vital in telling the story.
If manchester was swimming in georgian buildings then i wouldnt be so precious but it isnt. Just because georgian buildings have been replaced in the past by good victorian buildings isnt justification for wiping them out now. We shall wake up one morning and all these low scale georgian buildings will be gone because the farsights of this world dont think they are worthy and that will ultimately be a crying shame and a part of our city will be gone forever.
I will be glad to see a really good building on 43 and if an amazing building was going on this site then perhaps we could lose 47 but as it is the Hodder scheme is simply not amazing (in fact its rather poor). This scheme is market driven dont be under any illusions that these people want to add something to the city - they are cut and run mercahnts and all we shall be left with a second rate new building and a severely compromised historical building.

Cant be bothered to cut n paste so go and look it up yourself

074427/LO/2005/C2

Nice to know you're a team player :|

http://www.publicaccess.manchester.gov.uk/associateddocs/MCCList1.aspx?074427/LO/2005/C2

It seems your wishes have been granted!
I'm surprised jjb missed this one.
Saw the full PA today - wont tell you what i thought of it being a heritage nazi and all.
Cant be bothered to cut n paste so go and look it up yourself

074427/LO/2005/C2

So am I!

Here you go. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/mnlop.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/vvvvvvv.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/fert.jpg

jrb you're a star.

Longford, what's the score with public consultation? Do the Civic Society ever do any? Maybe I've got the wrong impression, but I get the feeling there's no regard for what the public think when it comes to buildings, and this contributes to that "Heritage Nazi" perception you've joked about. IMHO there are times when people with strong opinions ride roughshod over other views because "the public are ignorant fools" or "their opinions are merely shaped by the tabloid press". I'm thinking about EH or avante-garde architecture rather than the MCS here.

The civic society are simply that -a civil body - and not a statutory consultee.
When a PA is advertised (and when i say advertised i mean it is put in to the public domain) then interested parties (neighbours, police, Environmental Health etc) are contacted. It is however up to members of the public to keep an eye on things and spot any PAs that they would like to comment on and then it is up to them to write to the case officer to 'complain' about the application. It is not the civic society's job to enter into consultations - it is in fact the planning departments.
It is only because heritage nazis keep up to date with PAs that they get to comment on things but ultimately a member of the public has as much right to object or support (and about as much as a snowballs chance in hell of affecting decisions).
I dont buy this public consultation thing anyway.
The public arent consulted on the types of bulbs in street lights, the shade of yellow in double yellow lines or where speed cameras go. The public werent consulted when The Office was commisioned by the BBC and the public werent consulted when J K Rowling negotiated her last book deal. We, the public, entrust such things to other people who know what they are doing.
You, farsight, are more clued up than most about buildings but the majority of the public dont give a shit and will let other bodies and individuals make their decisions for them. When individuals such as myself do give a shit then we do get involved and can hopefully influence those we entrust to make decisions and perhaps influence some of those decisions.
Public consultation is mostly a waste of time because there is a nimby in all of us and nothing would ever get built if we asked the bloody public what they thought at every turn.
If you feel strongly about this app. write and comment on it - you have the reference number.

I'll just say two things on this:
The Georgian building is listed and is going nowhere and
The Hodder building simply isnt good enough for this site. Must do better.

Glad the Georgian building is staying. Bit of a scrub up and it would look great again.

Thanks for the response Longford. I have to say I don't like the sound of this:

Public consultation is mostly a waste of time because there is a nimby in all of us and nothing would ever get built if we asked the bloody public what they thought at every turn.

I meant that the MCS should consult on what's worth saving rather than on what gets built, but never mind.

You're a good guy Longford, but maybe one day you'll be arrogant and full of your own opinion with a sneering disregard for what the public or anybody else thinks. Then you can join English Heritage, LOL!

arrogant and full of your own opinion with a sneering disregard for what the public or anybody else thinks.

All that is a pre requisite to be a heritage nazi. They dont let you in if you dont hold such 'qualities'. :)

I actually am getting a bit tired of being the only heritage nazi round here - its only a small part of what i am about and i suppose i ask for a lot of the criticism directed at me but its something i cant switch off when i'm talking about new buildings (which is the after all the over riding reason for the forum). I really love modern architecture - but only when its good and when it isnt achieved at too high a price.
I do apologise if i can get a bit tedious sometimes but - hey - someones gotta do it!

No problem Longford. You aren't tedious. And you're not a Heritage Nazi - you wouldn't be on this bulletin board talking and exchanging views if you were. It's good to talk, we all like beautiful buildings whether new or old, but of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder plus it's more than skin deep.

Re criticism, I for one feel critical of English Heritage who want to impose rather than consult with things like their sneaky underhand "No Tall Buildings Policy" disguised as a "Tall Buildings Policy". But I don't feel critical of you. Sorry if I've come over as such.

Carry on Longford. Carry On.

Farsight - as Longford has explained, the Civic Society are not a statutory consultee in the planning process. If you are interested in their activites, join them its as simple as that - they are not a closed club.

Whilst I believe conserving the city's heritage is enormously important I do wish heritage bodies would take a more holistic view sometimes. Whilst the scarcety of Georgian buildings in Manchester merits conservation of what's left I think that this setting actually detracts from the building. Quite simply it looks lost! You tend not to notice it and appreciate it as much as it perhaps deserves in this setting of wide open spaces and buildings that are several orders of magnitude larger. Equally, I find that its diminutive size means that it does not really add very much to its locale, in fact it rather detracts from it. The same could be said of that row of quirky little buildings fronting Portland Street. Taken in isolation some of them are probably of great merit but in context (large, important street filled with large and important looking buildings) they simply detract from the street scene, looking like something of an anomoly. I know this would probably have many people up in arms but I think these sort of buildings, or at least the facades should be relocated to a more appropriate setting such as the smaller scale, finer grained streets of the Northern Quarter or Ancoats. You only have to look at the success of Sinclairs / Mitre hotel at the next to the triangle to see how successful this approach can be.

I was walking through Piccadilly Gardens today and thinking that the Wall, although an interesting idea in principle, fails in its objective to seperate the gardens from the bus station behind. Both in its materials and also scale, it just isnt large enough. I was wondering what peoples opinions would be of building taller, thinner, individual units on the same footprint as the wall. Enclosing the gardens and the bus station from each other?

Now usually Im not a fan of pastiche but it reminded me of the Brilliant reconstructed (ie replica) buildings that front the main squares of Warsaw and Gdansk, destroyed in WW2 these cities rebuilt themselves in a traditional style. Anyway the scale of buildings theyve built would be perfect. Tall and thin, and individual they would give the gardens much more scale and make it feel more enclosed. Also in Poland they are generally used as restaurants with pavement dining for when its sunny, again this would be perfect for Piccadilly... I'll try and find some examples of what Im thinking:

This sort of thing:

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/photos/poland_and_ukraine/images/Old%20Town%20Mkt%20Sq%20Warsaw.jpg

http://www.terracirca.de/expedition/galerie/image/13.gdansk.jpg

What dya reckon?

Obviously in a more British style, dont know if we'd be quite ready for that yet. I just think individual units work better on public squares than large bits of modern statement architecture. Also smaller retail/leisure units are something we dont build enough of these days.

we dont need ANY pastiche in a place like this, we need something new and exciting but also something that works

I actually am getting a bit tired of being the only heritage nazi round here - its only a small part of what i am about and i suppose i ask for a lot of the criticism directed at me but its something i cant switch off when i'm talking about new buildings (which is the after all the over riding reason for the forum). I really love modern architecture - but only when its good and when it isnt achieved at too high a price

You're not the only heritage nazi around these parts, I think most us share this credential to varying degrees. I like to think of myself as the high priest of Der Manchester Geschmackpolizei (the taste police)

It's very evident that Manchester has a pretty unique heritage in terms of the built environment. Partly due to its pre-eminence and its scale, and the quality of architecture that this produced. It's really special stuff.

For me, the devil's in the detail. Near me, until very recently there was a greengrocers, with the proprietor's name on a sign in really beautiful 1930s lettering. This shop closed and was bought by an estate agent, who ripped the old sign off, put his on and illuminated it with those fucking awful amorphous brass lanterns.

I know this is inevitable, but it really pisses me off. You occasionally see shop frontages (in this example) that haven't changed for 60 years, and I think it's about time some of them were preserved.

Now usually Im not a fan of pastiche but it reminded me of the Brilliant reconstructed (ie replica) buildings that front the main squares of Warsaw and Gdansk, destroyed in WW2 these cities rebuilt themselves in a traditional style.

Not a bad idea at all, but wouldn't it be better if it was the Piccadilly Plaza that was replaced instead of the wall? What lay there originally was destroyed during the blitz as far as I know.

With Warsaw, I've often wondered how true to the original its rebuilding was. This is a bit off-topic, but Warsaw's the only place I can think of that was destroyed systematically....i.e. not during an air raid, and not when anyone was able to fight back. Bloody terrible that was.

I know a really interesting place too. Of course it would be better if the podium of the plaza was removed and a more human scale of buildings built there but being pragmatic I dont think that would happen. And I would just love to see more individual units fronting the gardens containing resturants and cafes, that wall is just horrible and the hotel behind even worse.

...relocated to a more appropriate setting such as the smaller scale, finer grained streets of the Northern Quarter or Ancoats... Yep, I agree with that.

I'd like to see pavement cafes. I think the problem with Piccadilly Gardens is that it's always been rather cut off by roads and traffic and buses. And now it's even more cut off by that awful wall, and it's had a chunk cut off for 1 Piccadilly.

IMHO if there were pavement cafes and the nice smell of coffee the area would be lifted, and it would in time become part of the central business district that would extend all the way to Piccadilly Station, with significant economic motivation to improve the buildings.

how can people complain about the wall when it block the view of the bus station!!! get rid of the bus station and then do what you want with the wall

Yes please. I'd like to see that bus station moved. Then I'd like to have a stall next to that ugly concrete blot-on-the-landscape wall hiring out sledgehammers by the hour. I'd be taking in the money hand over fist.

Yes please. I'd like to see that bus station moved. Then I'd like to have a stall next to that ugly concrete blot-on-the-landscape wall hiring out sledgehammers by the hour. I'd be taking in the money hand over fist.
You'd even make extra dosh selling 'blasting packs' for the Jarvis as well.... :)

The new Kro bar works really well there - sat with a friend who doesn't usually talk about architecture and he summised the wall was pretty awful.

The gardens were absolutely knackered as I guess they are pretty busy this time of year.

Mussarat has also bought the freehold of 9 Portland Street, Piccadilly, from owner-occupier Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive for £5m. WHR acted for the vendor. It is essentially a development opportunity rather than an investment as GMPTE will move to a new purpose-built office at Argent's Piccadilly Place scheme later this year.

Out of today's Manchester Evening News business section

Sir Howard opens new office

Sir Howard Bernstein, the chief executive of Manchester city council, officially opened the new office of HKR Architects on King Street. Fifteen people work at the office. Projects underway include a £340m, 24-storey tower overlooking Piccadilly Gardens and a 12-storey development at Deansgate Locks.

What i wrote in the Northern Quarter thread @ £34m was how it was wrote in the MEN this time its says £340m so don't blame me.

I have looked on their website and can not find anything on it. here is the website: HKR Architects (http://www.hkr-architects.com)

I'm puzzled by this 24 storey tower thing

Yea so am i.^^ I was thinking are they part of the City Tower face lift.

If the practice has just opened, we're hardly gonna know anything about it, lol

yes I think £340m was a typo.

A £34m 24 storey tower is still a substantial development. Any idea where it might be? Piccadilly Gardens desperately needs some high quality new buildings to help reinforce its status as on of Manchester most important open spaces. Lets hope its top quality and in an appropriate location.

Interesting :)

yes I think £340m was a typo.

A £34m 24 storey tower is still a substantial development. Any idea where it might be? Piccadilly Gardens desperately needs some high quality new buildings to help reinforce its status as on of Manchester most important open spaces. Lets hope its top quality and in an appropriate location.

Could this be the development that's going to replace Prince of Wales building's ?
Sound's very intriging what ever it is.

Couldn't see anything myself on their website so I've e mailed them for more info, I'll let you know if I get any reply back from them.

i was surfing around and i noticed this on the McAslan website who I guess were responsible for the bus station in Piccadilly Gardens. Such a shame these lights were'nt used instead of the 'floodlights' in place now. I know its a fancy render which is designed to look good but some 'non-standard' bus shelters and nice lighting would help..

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g43/greggits/piccgards.jpg

Scaffolding is going up on the NatWest bank building fronting the gardens ,, quite a few building getting a good old much needed cleaning in the city this summer.

Just wish Debenhams and the owners of the Primark building will getting there scrubber's out to , there filthy .

Just wish Debenhams and the owners of the Primark building will getting there scrubber's out to , there filthy .

The most prestigous square in Manchester and what big corperate advert do you see.. Sony? the MEN? maybe a big designer shop- nope! That fucking Primark sign. Surely it breaks the law by being too intrusive. or shit.

The most prestigous square in Manchester and what big corperate advert do you see.. Sony? the MEN? maybe a big designer shop- nope! That fucking Primark sign. Surely it breaks the law by being too intrusive. or shit.

notonly that but someone's managed to paint loads of graffiti right underneath the main primark sign...don't know how they managed to get up there!

Lets face it, Piccadilly is a bloody mess. An embarrassment to the city and I can't believe the council actually had the nerve to endorse the place. It's seriously flawed, uninviting, dirty, noisy, smells of diesel, and will never be anywhere near what it could be because of that fuckin bus station. It makes me cringe!!

Lets face it, Piccadilly is a bloody mess. An embarrassment to the city and I can't believe the council actually had the nerve to endorse the place. It's seriously flawed, uninviting, dirty, noisy, smells of diesel, and will never be anywhere near what it could be because of that fuckin bus station. It makes me cringe!!

It is extremely embarrassing. I was sitting on a bench in front of Wetherspoons waiting for some mates last night just after 9 and the number of chavs around was ridiculous. The thing that annoys me most about them is the way that they can't leave you alone- I was just sitting there minding my own business for 5 minutes and in that time I was asked by some stoner if I had something for a 'spliffy' and by a some 12 year old kid if I 'wanted to buy a phone'. The next thing some arsehole walks past and shouts to two girls across the street to 'open their legs' or something along those lines. It really made me ashamed- as far as I knew those girls could have been foreign tourists.

The atmosphere just felt very threatening and unpleasant. This is one of things that annoys me about being from Manchester- we have a superb city centre now that is improving by the day, but the rest of the city is infested with scallies who want to make things unpleasant for everyone else. Piccadilly Gardens is one of the places in particular that attracts these scrotes. It's quite conceivable that someone could travel to Manchester by train for a very brief stop, walk to Piccadilly Gardens and have a similar experience as I did. As I'm from Manchester it obviously doesn't make me judge the city, but if it was the only part of Manchester you saw it would leave a lasting impression, and it wouldn't be a pleasant one.

Couldn't agree more Liam.

For about two years I caught the 232 bus home from near the amusement arcade. The place was full of low life. I used to get to the bus stop and just keep my head down - and that was during rush hour. I won't go down there on my own any more unless it's during the day. I use the Shudehill station instead.

Agree Liam - only solution is very long term, it's to better educate these people, and get them into a position where they take pride in themselves and their environment.

Was sat in Kro Piccadilly yesterday - it's a great bar they've carved into Picc No.1.
But the view of the gardens is a really sad letdown...there is potential there somewhere (the view of 'Sunley' with Beetham in the background has that 't'internationalness' about it), but it's going to take some ambitious thinking to make this fully work....perhaps the grassed area should really be a series of small landscaped lakes with japanese fish swimming contently in them...dunno. Answers on Sir Richard Leese's forehead.

I'm sure you all know i am the lone voice in the pro 'wall' camp but i have to admit that large swathes of grass was a mistake. I think the grass was a concession to the traditionalist who miss the old Piccadilly flower beds but i would have done more hard landscaping.
In a park where people meander grass is ok but in a mojor through route its just gonna get worn out.
Most the worlds great city squares are grass free.

I found £20 in Piccadilly Gardens today ,,,what a beautiful place :)

Bugger, I lost £20 in Piccadilly Gardens today, if anyone finds it let me know.

can anyone on here figure out where the bus station can be moved to? it realy is the main blight of the area. do we even need a massive bus station or would a couple of smaller stations be better?

Bugger, I lost £20 in Piccadilly Gardens today, if anyone finds it let me know.


BURP ,,, spent it :)

can anyone on here figure out where the bus station can be moved to? it realy is the main blight of the area. do we even need a massive bus station or would a couple of smaller stations be better?
Somewhere around Fairfiled St close to the train station would be ideal, theres plenty of land or broken down industrial units near Fairfield St that could be flattened to make way for a large bus station. It makes sense to me anyway.

can anyone on here figure out where the bus station can be moved to? it realy is the main blight of the area. do we even need a massive bus station or would a couple of smaller stations be better?
Read somewhere recently (cant remember where!) that GMPTE would like a Shudehill-esque interchange in the Gmex/ St peters Sq area but there just isnt the land.
This would stop all the 42's coming into town which cause all the problems with the trams on Mosely Street.
Not gonna happen though is it?
Elizabeth House site maybe?
Be good wouldnt it?

Agree Liam - only solution is very long term, it's to better educate these people, and get them into a position where they take pride in themselves and their environment.

Yeah I think that's right- there is no quick fix to the problem. These people seem to have no respect for anything and areas like Piccadilly Gardens are blighted by such people.

An underground bus station should be built, like in Boston!

I think we're all in agreement that the bus station shouldn't be there- it makes the area noisy and there's always that overpowering smell of diesel. If an underground bus station got the buses away from Piccadilly then I would be happy with that- at the moment it's just a complete mess.

Speaking of Boston, I would love Manchester to have a quality green open space like Boston Common. It has one thing in abundance that is seriously lacking in Manchester-trees. In my opinion Piccadilly Gardens needs more trees- it would be even better if they could demolish the plaza and City Tower and extend it to incorporate a couple of small lakes. There's something really nice and relaxing about Boston Common but I don't think we'll ever have anything like that in Manchester. There just isn't the space available for any substantial open spaces.

I cannot see an underground bus station (probably far too costly) but I'd like one underneath the area between China Town and Oxford Street.

Buses could come and go via Portland Street and Oxford Street - keeping them well away from the trams and Gardens - would imagine far too expensive though.

Also, how safe would the majority of old people feel walking underground to get on a bus?

I suspect the fact it was underground would be very off putting to some people on saftey reasons.

I suspect the fact it was underground would be very off putting to some people on saftey reasons.
Depends on the circumstances. I know thats always been one of your main arguments for having trams in Manchester instead of being underground. It all depends on planning. If you had something like the Glasgow Subway, then yes, people would probably be put off, especially at night. However, if you look at the way Porto have put their trams underground, its far better. The stations are incredibly open and well lit. To be honest, I dont think the underground Metrolink station at Piccadilly is that bad.

I don't think they can build an underground in Manchester. I hear the ground is not suitable. I guess this would prevent any such underground bus station either.

Thats nonsense. The victorians built plenty of tunnels in Manchester. From what I've heard, they even started building a rail link tunnel from Victoria to Piccadilly.

I'm not sure, I'm no expert on these things. Perhapse the type of ground makes it considerably more expensive to make tunnels underground than it does in say, London? And therefore make a Manchester underground unviable? I'll have a look. i must have read it somewhere.

In my opinion Piccadilly Gardens needs more trees...

I think more trees would be great from an aesthetic point of view. The vista at the moment reveals too many dirty buildings and annoying cheap shop signs. If we had a gardens flanked by a swathe of modern designs along side the best of the existing ones then I don't think it would be too bad. Manchester does alright for trees. I used to work on the 7th floor of Alexander House, Talbot Road and the view was just a mass of green.

Incidently, Google Earth still shows the old gardens more or less intact for anyone who's memory is failing.

Manchester is mostly built on sandstone.

The london underground is mostly under the water table so if they can do it their then there should be no problem in Manc.

On a seperate note the fountains in trafalar square aren't powered. Because that part of london is below the water table the natural pressure pushes water up boreholes and straight up into the air.

On a seperate note the fountains in trafalar square aren't powered. Because that part of london is below the water table the natural pressure pushes water up boreholes and straight up into the air.

Really? So the water table there is above the water line of the river thames, so much so as to produce a head of pressure at least 3m above ground level? Sounds iffy to me. Maybe there is a seam of sand or chalk overlain with clay which causes water pressure, but the water table is not above ground level at trafalgar.

Wouldn't there be puddles everywhere around the square - and the underground fill up with water???

Because that part of london is below the water table the natural pressure pushes water up boreholes and straight up into the air.

They are powered, closed circuit fountains mate.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j159/rolybling2/P1010037.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j159/rolybling2/P1010034-1.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j159/rolybling2/P1010039-1.jpg

Really? So the water table there is above the water line of the river thames, so much so as to produce a head of pressure at least 3m above ground level? Sounds iffy to me. Maybe there is a seam of sand or chalk overlain with clay which causes water pressure, but the water table is not above ground level at trafalgar.

Oops, i should be more careful with my words. They were once unpowered as stated below.

"The fountains of London were originally driven by artesian pressure in the aquifers trapped beneath the London clay. Pumping from aquifers over the centuries has lowered the water pressures below artesian levels."

from the following article http://fbe.uwe.ac.uk/public/geocal/SoilMech/water/water.htm

The deeper underground does fill with water i think.

Oops, i should be more careful with my words. They were once unpowered as stated below.

"The fountains of London were originally driven by artesian pressure in the aquifers trapped beneath the London clay. Pumping from aquifers over the centuries has lowered the water pressures below artesian levels."

from the following article http://fbe.uwe.ac.uk/public/geocal/SoilMech/water/water.htm

The deeper underground does fill with water i think.

My post reads a bit patronising but I assure you, it wasn't meant that way. Anyway, back of the net for Jerv for guessing how the pressure was developed naturally (I never doubted you on this point). I may yet make a geotechnical engineer!

My post reads a bit patronising but I assure you, it wasn't meant that way. Anyway, back of the net for Jerv for guessing how the pressure was developed naturally (I never doubted you on this point). I may yet make a geotechnical engineer!

No worries :)

I was only posting from my grainy memory which is a bit cavalier of me.

Sounds like you know your geo stuff. I'd be supprised if london even had a water table these days what with the national drought going on

Haha. Yes more like the water kotatsu! Arf

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j159/rolybling2/P1010037.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j159/rolybling2/P1010034-1.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j159/rolybling2/P1010039-1.jpg

Great pics roly, you actually manage to make the Gardens look appealing!

Yep, probably because there was no evidence of the Berlin Wall in those pics lol - Great pics again Roly ;)

Just had a wander through the gardens and see they have taken the fencing down. The fencing was to stop people walking on the grass while it grew again. Christ, its a mess, though.

Its all patchy and as they only did the bits around the paths so it looks completely different from the middle sections (as expected, I suppose). they didn't even let the grass finish growing, though.

Its never gonna look any good unless they redo all it all at once, which probably isn't ever going to be feasible. They could bring in pre-grown stuff when winter comes. Mind you the scallies will probably tax it all. I can't think how they can fix it up.

The grass looks like Russ Abbot's hair weave!