Marlins to move after 2008 [Archive]

aperez49

November 25th, 2005, 11:00 PM

Why shouldn't public money be used for sports? Public money is used for a lot of things like the PAC and Museums, not that I feel that they shouldn't be used for that, but the stadium was something that the city was going to own, not the team. All of these things are meant to increase quality of life by offering things that everybody enjoys, be that sports, museums, or theatre.

On another note, whoever started this thread is absolutely out of their mind. There is no chance the Marlins will be out of Miami by 2008 if at all. First, even if another city was able to pull it off, it would be at least 4 years before they could build a stadium, and because of the cities involved, I don't think this is going to happen. Las Vegas has very little chance, because no sports league wants to associate themselves with gambling even though sports gambling is gigantic, they rather just turn a blind eye to it. As for Portland and Carolina, I can't see these small markets being more lucrative than South Florida. People completely misinterpreted the statement by the team. All they said was that negotiation with the City of Miami was over, but that they were still working with Dade County. I heard a rumor this morning that Wayne was going to look into trying to sell the land, and maybe even try to bridge the gap of the stadium to build it on his land next to JRS. This actually benefits him greatly due to the fact that he wants to build his Sports Complex up there with bars and restaurants and hotels and all that stuff. This would gaurantee him crowds over most of the year instead of just from sept-january, and for over 90 dates instead of just 10. Not sure of the source, this is just a rumor, but it would definately be something to look into. I think if this were to happen, they should push the Metrorail line up 27th ave up to the top of the priority list right after the MIC-Earlington Heights line, because if they could get the Stadium built by 2010 and the Metrorail line finished around that time (wishful thinking I know..lol) it would be a lot easier for fans to get up there. I won't get too much into what the team was forced to do in terms of getting rid of some players here cause its not really a sports forum, but anyone who complains about what this ownership group is doing is crazy, lets not forget that we have been in playoff competition up until the last few weeks of the season for the last 4 years and oh yea, we won a World Series, so this ownership has done an amazing job with the team.

BTW, this just came to me, but in terms of threatening to leave in order to get a better offer from the city or state, is this any different from what like Burger King and other big companies do to get a better tax incentive offer from the city and state? Just something to make you think for a minute.... maybe less...lol..

Sorry for the long post..

logybogy

November 26th, 2005, 12:35 AM

A way to finance the stadium is to maybe do something like a variation of the SkyDome in Toronto. I think there are restaurants and a hotel as part of the property overlooking the field.

Could you imagine 10 or 15 floors of hotel condos as part of the stadium across center field? There could be restaurants and when you sit outside of your balcony you could watch the baseball game....

There has to be a way to make a stadium also a real estate investment to baseball fans so people can make money off of this thing....

People need to be creative and think outside the box.

Dale

November 26th, 2005, 07:00 AM

ChuckScraperMiami#1

November 26th, 2005, 07:17 AM

Everyone :) , I'm looking into my round globe, its not glass, its hollow with paper covering, and I've been pushing it around asking it, " What will happen to the Marlins in the future ? ", its telling me something, hold on, its saying, " They finally move the team to Las Vegas, NV. in 2010, when the contract runs out at Dolphins Stadium with no construction of any stadium in South Florida. " :runaway: :cheers:

TampaMike

November 26th, 2005, 11:56 PM

Fort Lauderdale Marlins sounds great to me. It will help and push the city to higher heights. Anyone agree?

rider_of_rohan

November 27th, 2005, 06:06 AM

Higher heights of what? Debt?

TampaMike

November 27th, 2005, 04:20 PM

Haha, but is that what every baseball stadium has done when built? I just think it will give the city some public view and step out from behind Miami. Ft. Laudrdale is a great city, needs some improvements there and there, but it is a great city and has a oppurtunity to make itself the great city

samsonyuen

November 27th, 2005, 08:03 PM

The question should be whether South Florida can support a baseball team. Well, can they? I reckon they should be able to, with their size and affluence. I still think it's just bluffing for stadium funding.

rider_of_rohan

November 28th, 2005, 12:00 AM

LA has twice the population of Miami yet it has no pro football team. I dont think having population or money is the problem here.

TampaMike

November 28th, 2005, 04:14 AM

There ain't no marlins in LA

Roark

November 28th, 2005, 05:27 AM

There ain't no marlins in LANot sure what that has to do with anything. I'm not a geographer, but Minnesota has a hell of a lot of lakes, and Los Angeles doesn't. Today, nobody seems to care about mascots when we talk about the Minneapolis Lakers and how they became the LA Lakers.

miamicanes

November 28th, 2005, 04:33 PM

As one of the characters in "Harlem Nights" so eloquently put it, "That bitch thinks her p***y's made of gold... well, it ain't."

Their demand for a retractable roof is just spoiled, bitchy posturing. On the few game days when there isn't a torrential downpour taking place (or substantial risk of one), it'll be hot and everyone will want air conditioning anyway. In twenty years of baseball games, there might be a dozen unseasonably nice days that would justify having it open. If playing in a stadium without a retractable roof and feeling the shame of not being able to force Miami into being desperate enough to keep them at any cost is simply too much for the Marlins to bear... well, they can go to hell for all I care.

I wish to god I had the cash to rent a billboard next to I-95 for a month or two with a message I believe would resonate well among Miami residents and generate a few smiles on the way to work: Miami to Marlins -- "We ain't yo' bitch!"

Sunstorm

November 28th, 2005, 06:57 PM

Miami doesn't need the Marlins, and apparently doesn't want them. Let some other patsy plunk down all that money for a stadium that the team is trying to extort from Miami and the state of Florida. I don't mind a few incentives, but sports franchise owners are over-the-top greedy. Florida isn't even a baseball kind of state, anyway. We didn't get our first major league team until, what, 15 years ago? Before that, pro baseball in FL just amounted to spring training. There is no tradition or history here when it comes to major league baseball. The baseball fans who live here pull for the teams in the cities where they moved here from, anyway.

When the Marlins move, Miami will be no less of a city. Baseball teams do not make a city great. Now if the Dolphins were to leave, that would be a tragedy because that team is so tied to the city's identity and history. But, as much as I love football and the Dolphins, even then, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

dave8721

April 27th, 2006, 02:32 PM

Hialeah is starting to look a lot more realistic but the land is between the turnpike and I-75 in the middle of nowhere near NW 170th ST.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/14438088.htm

HIALEAH
Idea raises hopes for Marlins stadium
Under discussion: A plan to take property taxes from a planned Hialeah industrial park and use them to help pay for a ballpark for the Marlins.

By BARRY JACKSON
bjackson@MiamiHerald.com

Hialeah city leaders, who recently won clearance to build an industrial park on 1,100 acres of land that had been off-limits to large-scale development, are discussing a plan with Miami-Dade County that would devote property taxes from the industrial park to building a new stadium for the Florida Marlins.

Hialeah Mayor Julio Robaina says he expects developer Armando Codina to donate part of the land to the city, which would then give it to the Marlins, who have been trying for years to find money to build a new stadium with a retractable roof.

But even with lots of public help, the team was still about $100 million short of the stadium's $400 million price tag -- and that's where the property-tax plan would come in.

Miami-Dade County Manager George Burgess and Hialeah Council President Steve Bovo said the idea is under discussion. ''It's a viable alternative,'' Burgess said of the plan, which would need the county commission's approval. ``It's an approach we have . . . agreed makes sense. We're moving quickly.''

Though the deal is far from final, a successful resolution would keep the Marlins, who have recently flirted with the idea of relocating to San Antonio, Texas, in South Florida.

Burgess stressed that no homeowners would see their property taxes earmarked for a stadium, and he said it was too soon to determine how much money the industrial-park plan could generate. But Bovo said ''you're talking about a huge amount of money'' potentially. Burgess agreed that the industrial park ``could generate significant incremental tax value.''

''We have to look at this carefully, to see what kind of development could occur there,'' he said.

The property taxes paid by businesses that locate in the industrial park would be split nearly evenly: half to Hialeah and half to the county, Robaina said Wednesday. Burgess said shares from both governments' property taxes would go toward the stadium -- though Robaina earlier in the day said he envisioned that no Hialeah money would be used. Any Hialeah involvement would require Hialeah City Council approval.

Under the scenario, the stadium would be built on a construction debris landfill site near the Turnpike and 170th Street. Codina's plans for the industrial park there would include offices and warehouses.

Codina had said as recently as last week that he had no plans to donate any of the property to Hialeah or to the Marlins. Codina was not available to comment on his plans Wednesday night, said his spokesman, Bruce Rubin. However, Robaina said he expected Codina would make the donation.

The Marlins, who are declining comment on the stadium issue, are facing a May 15 deadline to respond to San Antonio's proposal to ask voters to extend hotel and car-rental taxes that would help finance a stadium there. The Marlins have said they prefer to remain in South Florida but haven't ruled out San Antonio.

If the proposal goes before the Miami-Dade County Commission, it would need the approval of seven of the 13 commissioners. The county already has pledged between $110 million and $120 million from other sources toward the deal, Burgess said.

Commission Chairman Joe Martinez reserved judgment about whether he would support the plan. ''It's a possibility,'' he said.

Robaina also has said he expects Major League Baseball to contribute toward the project, but that's considered highly unlikely.

Bovo called the idea of pledging property-tax money in the area ``very enticing. We're almost done with the conversation part. We're about to start negotiations with the county and the Marlins.''

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miami Herald Staff Writer Rebecca Dellagloria contributed to this report.

Dale

April 27th, 2006, 03:10 PM

Not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm not a geographer, but Minnesota has a hell of a lot of lakes, and Los Angeles doesn't. Today, nobody seems to care about mascots when we talk about the Minneapolis Lakers and how they became the LA Lakers.

And their ain't no jazz in Salt Lake City either. ;)

Toucano

April 27th, 2006, 04:41 PM

The only place for a stadium would be in downtown, where mass transit can serve the stadium the best...

logybogy

April 28th, 2006, 12:18 AM

The property, which includes 1,140 acres between Florida's Turnpike on the west, Northwest 97th Avenue on the east, Northwest 170th Street on the north and Northwest 154th Street on the south, had been located outside the "Urban Development Boundary," meaning building could not occur there. Commissioners voted 12-1 to move the property, which includes an old landfill and is zoned for industrial and office space, into the development boundary.

I don't think that land is in the middle of nowhere at all. It's just a stone's throw away from the western suburbs of Broward and Dade via the turnpike and I-75.

It's certainly a much better site if you are living right now in Miramar, Pembroke Pines, or Weston than driving to Downtown Miami or the Orange Bowl.

SDK4

April 28th, 2006, 05:37 AM

I don't think the Marlins will be going anywhere, especially outside South Florida. I give it another 6 months before they get a plan in place, construction begins next summer, and a new ballpark is ready for opening day 2010

srm0101

April 28th, 2006, 11:32 AM

I agree that the Marlins will eventually stay in South Florida. South Florida is the 6th largest market in the country and I do not believe that MLB would just give up on such a potentially profitable area. Furthermore, San Antonio residents might not be so eager to pay for such a stadium considering that the city is currently paying for the SBC Center (Home of the Spurs) and for the fact that the city also previously built a football stadium to attract an NFL team which failed (not counting the New Orleans Saints). Eventually, I believe somebody will cave in, either Jeff Loria (Current owner of the Marlins) or some city in Dade County.

On a separate note, can some please explain to me the problem with the Bicentennial Park site. I must be missing something because I can't imagine a better place to have a stadium. I am aware that the city claims that they plan to build a museum at that location, however I really haven't seen any serious designs for a museum anywhere. Is there any way that the property for the Old Miami Arena could be used for either a Baseball Stadium or for the proposed museum? The site for the the Old Miami Arena alone is too small for a baseball stadium. However, with the existing dilapidated property surrounding the Arena there just might be enough land for a stadium. Plus there's metrorail across the street.

The Marlins and Miami need each other. The Marlins need the potentially large fan base, and the Miami needs a MLB team if it wants to be considered a major city in this country. New York has the Yankees and Mets, Chicago has the Cubs and White Sox, LA has the Dodgers, and Boston has the Red Sox. Miami needs something that it's people can identify with. I don't believe that the Dolphins and the Heat alone can meet that demand.

LCB

April 28th, 2006, 04:20 PM

The Marlins need the potentially large fan base, and the Miami needs a MLB team if it wants to be considered a major city in this country. New York has the Yankees and Mets, Chicago has the Cubs and White Sox, LA has the Dodgers, and Boston has the Red Sox. Miami needs something that it's people can identify with. I don't believe that the Dolphins and the Heat alone can meet that demand.

Without MLB, Miami is not considered a major US city? I think you are severely over estimating the impact of baseball. It could leave tomorrow, and the city would not miss a beat.

Baseball is a dying sport. Miami is already a major world wide city, just look around. People are not walking around hoping to be identified by the Marlins. At least I sure hope not.

srm0101

April 28th, 2006, 11:20 PM

At this very moment, you might be correct. However, in 10-15 years Miami would be missing an element that would separate it from New York, Chicago, and LA.

archifreese

April 28th, 2006, 11:38 PM

^ do you see LA as less in the past 10 years that its not had NFL ?

i dont think it matters at all if they do or dont stay here, i hate to say it but not enough people here care what the Marlins do. but i would love to see them in something downtown or near the water but that will probably never happen.

ChuckScraperMiami#1

April 28th, 2006, 11:43 PM

At this very moment, you might be correct. However, in 10-15 years Miami would be missing an element that would separate it from New York, Chicago, and LA.

SRM :cool: , my friend :hi: , The " Element " Condo Tower will not be missing, it will be built by 2012 at 56 floors. Its going to be a beauty, and will start construction This Summer, 2006. :applause:

and I say it again :speech: ,

Go Cranes !!! :banana: :cheer: :pepper:

srm0101

April 29th, 2006, 12:14 AM

First of all, I'm not talking about the NFL. The NFL is a totally separate topic that I would definately enjoy talking about at a later time. What I'm talking about is Baseball, a sport with over 80 home games between April and October. A sport that in other cities brings at least 35,000 people to a stadium. That's roughly 3,000,000 people in a single season. Now if a stadium is located in a downtown area with offices and residental buildings, similar to Miami, then people could attend games relatively easily. Fans would be either able to walk straight from work, walk from the apartment/condo, or take the metrorail to the game. Hopefully the businesses (bars, resturants, etc.) surrounding the stadium would profit greatly thereby increasing tax dollars. Most importantly, a downtown stadium would be the gem of Miami and increase the value of it's urban center.

The problem with Pro Player is: #1 it's a horrible baseball stadium (HOWEVER IT IS A GREAT FOOTBALL STADIUM), #2 awful location... there is nothing around it (offices, residental buildings, resturants, etc.) #3 no existing metrorail line (Yes, yes... I know that there will be one in 2014). All of these problem could be solved with a downtown stadium. Now financing... that's a separate arguement.

Toucano

April 29th, 2006, 03:58 AM

srm101, my same argument all the time....

we think alike....

welcome to the forum...

MIAballinboi

April 29th, 2006, 04:19 AM

^loool chuck

brickell

April 29th, 2006, 06:38 AM

If the Marlins do stay I just hope they're Loria-less. We need a real owner here. If takes losing the Marlins and starting over again, I'm all for it.

And, yes, I would love a downtown stadium too, but let them do it with their own money. They had a decent proposal with the Orange Bowl, but Loria's lackeys didn't want it. They cried and cried and now they have nothing. Good riddens. Miami will survive without baseball, but I honestly don't think it will be gone long.

srm0101

April 29th, 2006, 06:44 AM

Can someone please explain to me exactly what is wrong with either the Bicentennial Park site or the Old Miami Arena site (along with the existing dilapidated property surrounding the Arena)?

DGM

April 29th, 2006, 06:54 AM

The guy that owns the Arena wants to build a small citiy's worth of condos on the property (I think he wants to put the idea out there and sell the land to some developer). A Bicentennial Park ballpark won't happen. NIMBYs especially, and even some non-NIMBYs like me, think the land has better uses than a ballpark (sorry). I'd take museums over a ballpark any day.

Toucano

April 29th, 2006, 07:27 AM

I second that DGM...

brickell

April 29th, 2006, 07:31 AM

Can someone please explain to me exactly what is wrong with either the Bicentennial Park site or the Old Miami Arena site (along with the existing dilapidated property surrounding the Arena)?

I'd take musuems over a ball park too but would really rather it stay green space. The Miami Arena site is just too small. It would double the price if you had to buy up the lots around the arena to get enough space. I just don't want my tax money or public land going to a private baseball team. If the Arena site was big enough and they offered to build it with their own funds, I'd be fine with that kind of donation, but nobody's offering to do that either.

Ps. I am/was a big Marlins fan. I just have no loyalty to this franchise busting ownership group. Make that any ownership groups that begs for money and threatens to leave when they don't get what they want.

Miaminole

April 29th, 2006, 08:38 AM

ChuckScraperMiami#1

April 29th, 2006, 03:45 PM

The museum park is going to be a fantastic addition to downtown. It will mostly stay green. I wish the stadium would have been built on that riverfront site where Mint and Ivy are getting done.

Anyways, I agree that Miami would do fine w/out baseball, although having it doesn't hurt. The NFL is a much more important league and LA has been fine as an international city w/out a football team.

I do think something will happen in Hialeah. That is better than nothing.

MIAMInole :wave: , Fantastic is Right !!!, The Museum Of Science :cool: and Panetarium :cool: , and the Miami Arts Museum :cool: are going to be an asset to downtown Miami in Bicentennial Park :cool: .

the North Hialeah :righton: area would be a perfect place for the New Staduim,
Now,
the Big Question ??? :dunno:

Where's The Money !!! :dunno:

miamicanes

April 29th, 2006, 04:36 PM

How about building a baseball stadium in the area betwen North River Drive and NW 36th Street, slightly east of LeJeune Road (say, right next to Miami Jai-Alai and Club Pink Pussycat)? Or perhaps drain and fill in Palmer Lake (it's not like it serves any recreational or aesthetic purpose)?.

* Right now, it's mostly trash-strewn industrial wasteland

* It's directly adjacent to the future MIC connector and could have a station added for the stadium

* It's directly adjacent to a rail line directly connected to Tri-Rail's... so with a little shuffling on gameday, Tri-Rail could serve the stadium directly

* It's land that can never be (high-income) residential due to jet noise

If height is a problem, the stadium can be partially depressed, kind of like an ampitheater. It would look smaller from the outside, but from the inside you'd never know the difference.

Toucano

April 29th, 2006, 05:25 PM

Or the site of the Flagler dogtrack?

dave8721

May 4th, 2006, 03:08 PM

Looks like the Hialieah (Turnpike & I-75 area) Marlins stadium may actually happen. The best part of the bill is that it helps Orlando to keep the Magic as well so its not just money for South Florida which all the North and Central Florida senators would have voted against. Vote is today:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14496923.htm

LEGISLATURE
Marlins stadium funding gets a new lifeIn an unexpected maneuver, feuding Miami Republicans united in the state Senate to try to help the Florida Marlins win a tax subsidy for a new ballpark. The vote is today.

BY MARC CAPUTO AND MARY ELLEN KLAS
mcaputo@MiamiHerald.com

TALLAHASSEE - In the unlikeliest of ways at the unlikeliest of times, the Florida Marlins' hopes for a state tax subsidy to build a new ballpark were revived Wednesday night when Miami senators put aside their feuding and backed a plan to bring the team to Hialeah.

With Hialeah Sen. Rudy Garcia in the lead, Miami Sens. Alex Villalobos and Alex Diaz de la Portilla quietly collected votes for their plan for the $60 million subsidy and tacked it onto a bill that guarantees the Orlando Magic basketball team the same type of tax break.

The measure will be voted on today -- just two days before the end of the two-month lawmaking session -- in the full Senate, which has been the death chamber for a Marlins subsidy since 2000. Last year, Senate President Tom Lee refused to allow the proposal to come up for a vote.

In the House, sentiment for the Marlins is stronger and many expect it will pass there if the Senate approves the subsidy.

On Wednesday, Lee -- along with Marlins President David Samson -- said he was unaware of the plan when it was sprung after 7 p.m. Lee said he was preoccupied with other matters in the Senate, which has been riven by bitter factionalism ever since Diaz de la Portilla helped oust Villalobos from his future post as Senate president.

''When things are important to Miami-Dade County, we should work together,'' Diaz de La Portilla said, noting it was good for the county, for baseball and for the Senate as well.

''This will help bring the chamber together . . . it will keep the Marlins in Florida,'' he said in reference to the Marlins' discussions about moving to San Antonio.

There's no guarantee that the Senate vote today will go the Marlins' way; Republicans from North Florida and the Tampa Bay area oppose giving the team the subsidy, saying it's a handout the team, under previous owner Wayne Huizenga, already received.

REVENUE ESTIMATES

Under the state program governing the seven existing subsidies for ballparks, teams must show they can generate more than $2 million annually in sales tax collections. That money is then returned to the sports franchise for 30 years to pay for the ballpark. However, once a team qualifies for the subsidy, it gets the money from the state even if it doesn't generate the tax money.

Sen. Jim King, a Jacksonville Republican, compared the expectations of sports teams for subsidies to welfare recipients. ''It's almost an entitlement attitude,'' said King, who helped kill two other Marlins subsidies when he was Senate president in 2003 and 2004.

Traditionally, the issue has divided the Senate and ground the Marlins' hopes to a halt. This time, though, it had an odd unifying effect.

The Senate was divided and paralyzed Wednesday morning in the fallout from the defeat of two education votes dear to Gov. Jeb Bush. Lee had managed to resurrect one of the defeated items the previous night on a procedural move, so Democrats retaliated with a maneuver of their own Wednesday morning: requiring a few bills to be read in their mind-numbing entirety.

Democrats dropped the tactic after they proved they could stop the Senate in its tracks.

Villalobos, who sided with the Democrats in defeating the education initiatives, angered Miami-Dade leaders last year when he backed Lee's opposition to the stadium. Lee fired Villalobos Monday night as leader of the Republicans, freeing the Miami senator to stitch together the ballpark plan with the aid of Democrats.

They first tried to tack the proposal onto a spring-training bill, but that bill's sponsor, Republican Mike Fasano of Tampa, kept it off. Many then thought the Marlins' proposal was dead -- until the three Miami-Dade senators revived it by successfully attaching it to the Orlando Magic measure.

The Marlins' Samson said he knew nothing of the plan but was so ''excited'' by the news he could barely watch Wednesday's game against the Washington Nationals.

''Getting a full vote tomorrow is a step that hasn't happened in the past number of years,'' Samson said, crediting the state senators, the city of Miami and county officials.

Another man sure to be pleased: Armando Codina, the Miami developer and former Bush business partner who pushed for the Marlins plan last year and was offended when Villalobos refused to meet with him over it. Codina has offered to donate part of the land -- a construction-debris landfill near Florida's Turnpike and Northwest 170th Street -- for the ballpark to Hialeah. The city would then give the land to the Marlins.

The Marlins are about $100 million short of what they need for a $430 million retractable-roof stadium. The team has offered $212 million -- $182 million in rent and $30 million in equity. Miami-Dade County Manager George Burgess has said the county can offer between $110 million and $120 million.

INDUSTRIAL PARK

City officials are also considering using property taxes from a proposed industrial park to finance construction of a stadium with a retractable roof.

''Hialeah is a baseball town,'' Hialeah Mayor Julio Robaina said. ``Baseball is in our culture. Hialeah will support the Marlins.''

The governor, who killed the first Marlins tax-break plan in 2000, supported the subsidy concept last year. And the House will likely approve it as well, said Miami Rep. David Rivera. ''Just as the House led the way to support the Marlins last year, I'm confident we'll do it again,'' Rivera said. ``As for the Senate, better late than never.''

Miami Herald staff writers Barry Jackson, Clark Spencer and Jennifer Mooney Piedra contributed to this report.

BornInTheGrove

May 4th, 2006, 05:54 PM

I pray and hope it passes...

The Mad Hatter!!

May 4th, 2006, 11:14 PM

f*C* S---T H------------------ when the hell are they going to finally leave......they keep getting me excited, that they might finally pack there bags and go. but everytime someone finds them a new option. LET THEM LEAVE PPL, WERE BETTER WITHOUT 'EM

LCB

May 5th, 2006, 01:56 AM

Didn't they just draw 6,000 fans for 2 games earlier this week? I hope they don't think building a stadium will magically draw sellouts.

nimbyhater

May 5th, 2006, 03:25 AM

if they get this funding will they maybe figure out somewhere to build it besides fucking 170th and the turnpike? cant we bring back the orange bowl site now that the money is there

miamicanes

May 5th, 2006, 03:44 AM

Actually, 170th and the Turnpike is a pretty good location. It's more convenient to people driving down from Broward and PBC, in an area with no real existing development, so nobody's neighborhood is going to get screwed up by horrific traffic jams all season long.

Plus, look about about 2 miles south. Railroad tracks! Follow them southeast along US-27. Hey, there's a Metrorail station there! Hmmm. Now keep following the tracks east until they cross the north-south tracks. Tri-Rail! Hmmm. Demolish 2 or 3 buildings, rebuild the crossing so southbound and northbound trains can go west, and eastbound trains can go north or south. Now extend the line 2 miles north, across land with nothing to speak of on it. Hmm. Potential direct tri-rail access to the stadium. Or just build new tracks alongside the existing ones along US-27 running at grade, and use them for a light rail line. Yeah, I generally frown on light rail, but out there, there's not much traffic to screw up anyway, so it's as good a place as any to put one.

Bobdreamz

May 5th, 2006, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by srm0101
"The Marlins need the potentially large fan base, and the Miami needs a MLB team if it wants to be considered a major city in this country. New York has the Yankees and Mets, Chicago has the Cubs and White Sox, LA has the Dodgers, and Boston has the Red Sox. Miami needs something that it's people can identify with. I don't believe that the Dolphins and the Heat alone can meet that demand."

That may have been true 15 years ago when cities needed the 4 major league teams to be considered a "major" city....I think Miami has already transcended that point...the Marlins are just a sports franchise...if they left that wouldn't diminish what Miami is today.

rider_of_rohan

May 5th, 2006, 03:03 PM

Im with you Bob, let em go. Who cares. If they want a new stadium let them build it themselves.

dave8721

May 5th, 2006, 05:34 PM

Im with you Bob, let em go. Who cares. If they want a new stadium let them build it themselves.

Just curious, how did people up in your neck of the woods react when the Twins did the same thing? They've also been threatening to move and demanding money from Minnesota to help pay for a new stadium as well.

nimbyhater

May 5th, 2006, 08:39 PM

dbranham

May 5th, 2006, 08:48 PM

IMO, a new stadium will not, in and of itself, remedy the Marlins' problems. Attendance will not triple merely by giving the good citizens of Miami a shiny new ballpark. No way, no how! However, if coupled with a solution to the ownership problem, all would be well in SoFla. This ownership group is terrible for the team, and for the city of Miami. It is selfish. It is willing to virtually steal from the public in order to fill its own coffers. It shouldn't need to be said, but Loria should take heed the adage: If you give the people a winning team, then they'll fill the stands. Miami, with all its population and affluence, is MORE than capable of putting 30,000+ butts in the seats for a winning team. Hey, if the stadium stinks, maybe they ought to build a new one. BUT, not for this ownership group.

I have a solution, btw, to Loria, and others around the various and sundry pro sports leagues that operate just like him--without regard for fans. There should be accountability. Yes, that's right. This is SO similar to the advent of holding corporations accountable (i.e. LIABLE) so as to prevent corporate scandals like Enron and WorldCom. Officers, Directors, and Insiders (i.e. significant owners) of corporations owe a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. Violation of this fiduciary duty results in severe punishment. Just think about what Ken Lay has to look fwd to for the rest of his miserable life.

For those who don't know exactly what a "fiduciary duty" is (which, in all fairness, is probably most of you who are not attorneys), here's a brief illustration. If John owes Jane a fiduciary duty, then he is bound to put her interests above his own. He is prevented, by operation of law, from taking part in any action that would benefit him while harming her. His ultimate obligation is always to further her cause. John owes Jane a punctilio of honor the most sensitive.

If Loria continues to loot the team, threaten to move it to another city/state, or act in such a way that is clearly contrary to the best interests of the Marlins, then he should be held accountable. After all, if it's partially a public enterprise (tax money), then he SHOULD have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to act as he has. He should OWE the city of Miami for his malfeasance--for his breach of fiduciary duty. The city, and the local economy, aside from their tax investment, are somewhat dependent on the Marlins' success. It's a significant local entity, and it is irrefutable that there is a direct relationship between the team's success and the area's economic prosperity. Note that I did NOT just say that the Marlins organization is a make-or-break entity in town. I merely iterated that it has a substantial effect (or, shall I say of Loria's tenure, lack thereof).

rider_of_rohan

May 5th, 2006, 09:42 PM

Just curious, how did people up in your neck of the woods react when the Twins did the same thing? They've also been threatening to move and demanding money from Minnesota to help pay for a new stadium as well.

I wanted them to go and take the vikings with them :). I dont believe we should have to pay for their stadium, they are owned by billionaires. They should do it themselves.

aperez49

May 5th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Loria put his money into this team for 3 straight years, gave one championship, and the other 2 years we were fighting for a playoff spot up through the last month of the season, and the reaction from most in SoFla was a collective YAWN. Why should he keep investing his money in something that nobody else seems to want to invest in? I don't blame them for cutting salary the way he did for this year. To me, if we were going to have a $50million payroll and lose about 90 games and not make the playoffs, we may as well have a $15million payroll and lose maybe another 10 games or so. Because all the experience we're giving these kids now will pay off in 2-3 seasons when we go out, spend some money on a few key vets and make another championship run. The Marlins have been the most successful team in this market over the last 10 years by bringing in 2 Championships, and still we struggle with attendance. It's not just about winning in this market, it's about the cool thing to do, and I think that a new stadium would be the cool thing to do (at least for a while) and hopefully during the time it's the in thing, people will grow a bond with a team they've seen grow up before them.

I'd love to know how you think Loria is looting the team, a team he's had operating at a loss for the past few years. Also, I'd like to know how what's best for Loria is contrary to what's best for the Marlins. It's his money invested in that team, as a business man he has to look out for that first and foremost. It seems to me that people like you want to hold an owner to different standards when it's convenient. When they're asking for money, then you want them to do it alone because it's their team and the community shouldn't have to pay, but when they threaten to move you come clammoring that the team belongs to the community and how can the owner threaten to do this to "your" team.

You were right, I had no clue as to what "fiduciary duty", so let me try to see if I understand. Are you trying to say that by purchasing tickets the people are "investing" in the team, and that because of that 'investment" the team has a fiduciary duty to the community? If this isn't what you mean, please try to explain how Loria would owe the community this so called duty.

All this duty talk is making me laugh..

ChuckScraperMiami#1

May 6th, 2006, 04:42 PM

well,
I guess by now, you'll all know the lastest news.

No 60 million towards the New Marlins stadium,
the senate passe

ChuckScraperMiami#1

May 6th, 2006, 04:46 PM

well, everyone :grouphug:
I guess by now, you'll all know the lastest news.
:baaa:
No 60 million towards the New Marlins stadium,
the senate passed it,
the " House :omg: :ohno: :banned: " didn't.

Now What ??? :dunno: :dunno:

brickell

May 6th, 2006, 05:03 PM

The balance of power's maintained that way...

BornInTheGrove

May 6th, 2006, 11:33 PM

the senate passed it for the first time ever.... but sent it to the house with 17 minutes left in the legislative session... too little time. the house was too busy working out the insurance problem.

umiami305

August 22nd, 2006, 06:32 AM

Stadium plan for downtown gets a boost. Major League Baseball has its sights on downtown Miami land for a new Florida Marlins stadium, adding a new twist in the long quest for a new home.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/15329122.htm

Rx727sfl2002

August 22nd, 2006, 01:00 PM

that just doesnt make sense

this would basically put the stadium south of the miami arena
basically right next door to it and north of the new federal courthouse
so its sandwiched in the middle

they would have to close nw 6th street
tear down the at&t building and another two smaller buildings
unite the parcells and build this stadium there with no parking facility

it would be nice if they kept the arena functional becuase then we would have enough space to host olympics if we got the orange bowl into shape
and the doplhins fix there stadium up like they want to do...

i

900Biscayneguy

August 22nd, 2006, 04:40 PM

I think it is a great idea. :nocrook: :pepper: Look at what San Diego has done with its Ball Park district. That area has exploded and now has become one of San Diego's most exciting neighborhoods. This is exactly what this area of Miami needs. The location is perfect, the public transportation is there and it close to the freeway. Also, Seattle has a great ball park downtown. I hope Miami's Marlin's stadium will be as nice as the the ones in San Diego and Seattle.
Also this will bring more jobs and more cranes to Miami! :cucumber: :)

brickell

August 23rd, 2006, 07:55 PM

Call me a sucker, but I'm getting excited about this downtown stadium happening. Chuck, is it in your dreams yet?

What I'd like to see is it turned into the southern terminus of the TriRail East line with a commuter mall around and facing the street. Then build the stadium on top of that facing east. Route tunnels or skybridges to Metrorail and Metromover. I'm thinking something similar to Penn Station in NYC. It would remain an active space during the offseason and ease getting to games during the season. It would also justify the county/city putting money into this project at all.

dave8721

August 23rd, 2006, 08:10 PM

Editorial on the subject from the Herald:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/columnists/greg_cote/15337725.htm

In My Opinion
Stadium talk falls on deaf fans

By GREG COTE
gcote@MiamiHerald.com

Our skin has toughened. Our skepticism is fully formed. We have seen and heard it before. Felt the hope yanked out from under us how many times? So you might forgive Marlins fans reacting to the latest development regarding a new stadium with a doubtful nod that says, ``Yeah, right. Sure.''

You could imagine that reaction across South Florida on Tuesday to this newspaper's 1A news story headlined, ''Stadium plan for downtown gets a boost.'' Especially when those hopeful words were countered with the soberest reality in a secondary headline that casually mentioned, like, oh-by-the-way: ``Even if a stadium site is chosen, the question of funding is still up in the air.''

When hasn't stadium funding -- along with an agreeable location and the very future of the franchise -- been up in the air?

It might be time to take Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria, Gov. Jeb Bush, baseball commissioner Bud Selig and the mayors and managers of Miami-Dade County and the city of Miami, lock them all in a room and not let any of them out until a site and a funding plan are agreed upon. Put a Port-o-Let in the room and a bunch of cots. Serve prison food. Turn the temperature up two degrees per day. If all else fails, start piping in a continuous loop of Whitney Houston yodeling.

Can we get this thing done, already? Rome was built in less time than it has taken two Marlins owners and various local governments to agree on where and how to build a in' ballpark. Other cities that wish to be big-league metaphorically and literally manage to erect new stadiums while our effort is a seemingly endless series of lurches and halts. Possibilities petering. Plans going poof.

[B]Aug. 7, 1999. That's when then-new Marlins owner John Henry outlined his ''vision'' for a new ballpark and four months later had selected Miami's Bicentennial Park and hired a design architect.

Seven years later the Marlins remain, in their own way, as homeless as the displaced folks still curling up on cardboard on Bicentennial's grounds.

Seven years of stillborn ideas float like apparitions. Remember Gov. Bush choosing Opening Day 2000 to oppose (and effectively kill) a cruise passenger surcharge toward a new stadium? How about this past May when Tampa state Sen. Mike Fasano submarined a $60 million tax subsidy?

START FROM BOTTOM

The parade of dead-ends finally led current Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria to seek permission to explore relocation, which in turn gave sprout to new local efforts including one by the city of Hialeah. At that point it became official: You have certifiably hit your nadir of desperation when you plan to build your new retractable-dome ballpark on a landfill in Hialeah. What next? Migrant farm in Belle Glade?

And now this: The Miami Herald reporting that MLB has stepped into the process like never before and is pushing a downtown Miami site just south of the old Miami Arena.

Two thoughts, both favorable ones, fighting and pushing through the layers of calloused skepticism:

• 1. Although we still prefer the centrally located area near Dolphin Stadium, downtown Miami beats the heck out of Hialeah or some address not ending with the word Florida. Downtown is redeveloping, and a new ballpark would be a big addition, along with the new performing arts center, the Heat's jewel of an arena, Bayside, and all of the other restaurants, shops and upscale condos redefining the area. Proximity to Interstate 95, Metrorail, Metromover and a railway line being considered for passenger travel make the proposed new site smart logistically as well.

• 2. MLB's active involvement is welcome and overdue, and should underline to all doubters that baseball wants a team in Miami, a natural gate to the Caribbean and to the sport's global reach. An earlier indication was Selig's office denying wooing San Antonio as a fit relocation candidate.

SIT DOWN AND TALK

Baseball getting behind a downtown site gives it credibility. Now all that needs be done is to get power brokers from the Marlins, Miami-Dade, city of Miami and the state all behind the plan. Oh, and then bridge that minor matter of a $100 million or so shortfall in funding! That's all. Which is where the old skepticism gets up off the mat and starts swinging again.

Bottom line? This latest development is good news. And people who know remind us that years and years of planning, failed plans and red tape are pretty much standard before finally you reach the day when politicians who look funny in hard hats put down golden spades for a photo-op groundbreaking.

Rick Horrow, the Palm Beach-based sports facility expert who has been an NFL consultant on 24 new stadium projects, recalls it took nine years for Miami Arena to become the 1980s overnight sensation that led to us getting an NBA franchise. He speculates a downtown Miami ballpark can fly if it is placed in the context of a ''meaningful urban master plan'' that lets people to see what they are getting beyond keeping the Marlins, and if people are convinced the team is contributing enough.

'The multitude of failures can bring the presumption of, `Here's the next one.' But this is a normal part of an incredibly cumbersome, complex, time-consuming process,'' Horrow said Tuesday. ``In some ways South Florida has become the poster child for foot-dragging, but these deals don't get done until there's last-minute, frenetic activity where everybody feels the pressure simultaneously.''

Maybe baseball's more active involvement suggests we are finally getting near that point. Seven years with no done deal are almost enough for the skeptic to overtake the optimist -- but not quite.

The Marlins won't leave because a deal for a new stadium will happen here.

Somehow, somewhere, some way, some day, it will.

Verticus

August 23rd, 2006, 10:17 PM

I've been pushing this idea since 2003 to anyone who would listen. Maybe somebody actually did. It's not perfect, but it beats a landfill in Hialeah.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j240/Gumsandals/MiamiMegaplex.jpg

Toronto06

August 23rd, 2006, 11:20 PM

...after burnett and delgado were either traded or let go.

one came to the Jays and one left the Jays

Rx727sfl2002

August 24th, 2006, 05:50 AM

VERTICUS YOU NEED TO GO DOWN ONE MORE BLOCK TO 5TH
AND OVER TO THE RIGHT NORTH MIAMI AVE THAT IS THE AMOUNT
OF LAND ACTUALLY PROPOSED BUT NICE CONCEPT ALTHOUGH THE SITE IS MUCH LARGER

Dale

August 24th, 2006, 05:52 AM

Caught a bit of the game tonight and it looked like there were about 33 people in the stands.

ChuckScraperMiami#1

July 29th, 2007, 04:08 AM

Caught a bit of the game tonight and it looked like there were about 33 people in the stands.

DALE:) , my friend,
It looks like 33,000 Fans watching the Marlins Knocking Back Barry Bonds hitless Still at 754 Home Runs, and a chance to make the Home Run Record of all Time over Hank Aaron, NOT tonight, everyone looking for # 755 Tomorrow ( SUNDAY ) in San Francisco:banana:
and the only homer was M. Cabrera for the Marlins !!!:cheers:

Florida 3 ,
San Francisco 4,
Game OVER:lol:

spellbound

July 29th, 2007, 11:30 AM

miamicanes

July 29th, 2007, 05:29 PM

SoBe99

July 29th, 2007, 06:19 PM

BornInTheGrove

July 29th, 2007, 09:58 PM

The roof would not have to close completely. Many of the new roof-retractable stadiums act only as an "umbrella" keeping the rain off the stadium, which is the biggest concern. The sides are open to the natural air and breezes. Too many rainy afternoon in the summer here. It doesnt even have to rain...the threat of rain keeps many fans away.
exactly...

... and another note. i dunno if any of you guys have been to a marlins game this year, but of the 3 times i've gone, i was graced with the fortune of only having ominous clouds of rain threaten water, either before or during the game, once. The other two times, i arrived to wet seats.

So yes, a retractable roof is needed, and not just stupid, but on the contrary, smart. for if the marlins were to build and an obscene parking garage in downtown (gasp) for the fans to drive up and park in, and that were connected to the stadium, then the fans would be guaranteed a wet free experience to the ballpark. this could also apply to the people taking mass transit.

MAH45462

July 29th, 2007, 10:08 PM

I fully understand that lot's of people aren't sports fans but a few numbers bug me lately.

Apparently only Phoenix had lower viewership numbers for pro-football last season (among 32 markets)...the Marlins numbers speak for themselves (atrocious...they don't draw flies)...The Hurricanes struggled to even put 30,000 fannies in the seats half their season...the Heat had a sea of no-shows (as usual...despite a championship team)...and the Panthers...well...who?

Good job making up facts and ignoring other key info.

The Heat didn't have a sea of no shows. They sold out or oversold every freakin' game, and as a season ticket holder at most of the games, I saw that for myself. The Miami Heat average 100.6% capacity in 2007. They had to sell standing room tickets to almost every game. The Marlins have terrible attendance, but have one of the league's best television contracts and pretty good television and radio ratings (FYI: radio/tv is the single most important revenue source for baseball teams, and the Marlins have a contract that makes most teams very jealous; this is one reason why MLB pretty much is dead set on making sure Miami has a baseball team), which says something. The Panthers, despite sucking and being in a terrible location, have better attendence than more traditional and larger hockey markets. Few people realize that the Panthers still outdraw the Boston Bruins, Chicago Blackhawks, New York Islanders, St. Louis Blues, and Washington Capitals...year after year after year after year. And this for a team that has no history and has accomplished nothing in more than a decade (rest assured, if they were to become a strong team they would see attendence soar, like Tampa has seen).

Miami is a fickle market, but that can be said for any Sunbelt market. Los Angeles is even worse than Miami, and it's bigger. Atlanta probably takes the crown for worst sports town, and Phoenix is a terrible sports town too. The only good sports towns are the more traditional Northeast/Midwest markets, and cities where there is nothing else to do (i.e. St. Louis).

BornInTheGrove

July 29th, 2007, 10:14 PM

LA doesn't even have a football team, and for that.... LA < Miami

lol j/k... but for real, no football, common on

MiamiMike

July 29th, 2007, 10:21 PM

MAH45462

July 29th, 2007, 10:27 PM

I stand my ground in saying this stadium downtown is really important.

To the idea of a soccer arena in its place................ok..............maybe MORE people from south america would visit..............but what about whats good for Miami residents????

I dont watch soccer.

You might not watch soccer, but the sport is extremely popular in South Florida.

I think a downtown soccer stadium could be a great asset for the city of Miami, but any such project should be independent of a baseball stadium. It's no secret that the MLS wants to come back to Miami, and that Real Madrid has hinted about playing a role in such a return. Meanwhile, last week the Argentine press reported that Buenos Aires' big soccer club, Boca Junior, has begun active discussions with the MLS to set-up a franchise, most likely in Miami. However, MLS officials have so far denied such reports.

spellbound

July 29th, 2007, 11:16 PM

Miami is a fickle market, but that can be said for any Sunbelt market. Los Angeles is even worse than Miami, and it's bigger. Atlanta probably takes the crown for worst sports town, and Phoenix is a terrible sports town too. The only good sports towns are the more traditional Northeast/Midwest markets, and cities where there is nothing else to do (i.e. St. Louis).

Atlanta is a godawful sports town, agreed.

As for Miami/South Florida, I think few people would rank it as a good sports market even if it's a step above someplace like Atlanta. Other than the Dolphins---which are a civic institution ---every team has had significant attendance problems. Yes, the Heat sold out every game but to deny that a significant number of no-shows aren't a very real phenomenon at their games is simply not true. Like you, my dad also has season-tix and I see it myself a few times every season.

Marlins attendance speaks for itself. Abysmal. The Hurricanes also draw lousy crowds when it's not a "name" opponent.

As for the old "there's nothing else to do" line about "good" sports towns, I once believed the same thing but have learned it's a complete fallacy. There's just as much to do in any big city...it's just that the options are different.

I think the difference in attendance/passion, etc. is much more a result of people tending to have deeper roots in those cities that many do in South Florida or other Sunbelt locales. Miami is a transient city and a large number of people don't consider it genuinely "home" and tend not to attach themselves thoroughly to the place by identifying with the local teams or supporting local cultural institutions, etc.

Over time, that could certainly change but at this point in time I think it presents a very real challenge to those interests (not just sports teams) that need a loyal, ticket-buying base to thrive.

spellbound

July 29th, 2007, 11:32 PM

With respect to return on investment and generating tourist cash for Miami, I think we'd get more bang for buck by forgetting the Marlins and instead building a stadium for a pro Soccer team that competed directly against South American teams. Imagine, for a moment, the crowds it would get (including foreign tourists) when Miami had home games against, say, Sao Paolo, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Bogota, Rio de Janeiro, etc...

IMHO, the most obscene demand made by the Marlins is for a retractable roof stadium. That's just stupid. We all know that during the summer, there *might* be one game per year when the roof were actually open, and fans were genuinely glad the roof were open (instead of wishing it were closed and the A/C cranked up). Remember, you can't just casually open and close these roofs... and it takes days to cool down the interior from 95 degrees @ 99% humidity to 72 degrees @ 50% humidity once the roof is finally closed (partly because if they tried to close the roof and shoot supercooled air into it to try and cool it down quickly, the fans would get rained on by condensation... drying out the air is just as important as cooling it down).

I'm not really sure what you're proposing with a soccer team. There isn't any league for a hypothetical Miami team to join to play the big clubs in South America as those leagues are all organized by country and they only compete outside them in occassional tournaments or exhibition matches. MLS certainly isn't anywhere close to that level, and has no plans whatsoever to play teams such as those except in purely exhibition "friendlys."

I love the sport, but to be honest soccer has been talked about as the "next big thing" in American sports for at least the past 30 years, and it never really is. MLS gave the South Florida market a try only in the recent past---with a team marketed VERY heavily to the Hispanic audience---and it folded. Maybe professional soccer WILL genuinely take off in this country someday (and personally I hope it does), but I don't think that time has arrived yet in Miami or elsewhere.

With the Marlins, I think it's imperative that SOME type of roof exists in a new ballpark. The rain (or threat of rain) is a very real factor in their attendance problems and without improved attendance the franchise is doomed economically.

brickell

July 29th, 2007, 11:45 PM

thetallerthebetter

July 29th, 2007, 11:48 PM

spellbound

July 29th, 2007, 11:55 PM

For the record, I've been to 6 games this year and haven't felt a drop. I think it's the threat of rain that is more of a problem than the rain itself. A stadium closer to the coast would alleviate this a bit, but I think it overplayed when discussing why people don't show up.

You could be right about that, but the rain situation (or threat of it, as you said) seems to make a convenient excuse for some folks to not go.

Part of it, imo, is simply that South Florida didn't turn out to be the great baseball market that many thought it would be. Even with a new stadium, I don't think their attendance numbers will skyrocket except when they manage to field an outstanding team.

It's not as if there's some magical "untapped" market that the Marlins haven't reached. And while I LOVE the idea of a downtown ballpark, their current location is actually far more central to the South Florida population base as a whole.

A move could help (and a new stadium would certainly help the Marlins from a financial/lease viewpoint) but I don't think it'll be a magic panacea for attendance. It's deeper than that.

spellbound

July 29th, 2007, 11:59 PM

I say we get a marlins ballpark in downtown with a permanent roof for cooling/rain issues and put a nice big parking lot under/next to it too.

While we're dreaming why don't we turn the Orange Bowl into a nice big modern soccer stadium and songoten can link it to the metrorail in one of his fabulous mass trasit acid trips.

Whatta you guys think? Worst idea ever? Ive heard worse :nuts:

Would that be the Burnt Umber subway line or the Violet Magnetic-Levitation Line linking to the Intermodal Heliport, Hydrofoil, and Aventura/Key Largo Bullet Train Nexus?

ChuckScraperMiami#1

July 30th, 2007, 01:03 AM

Everyone:banana: , my friends,
Today's game is over, No Homerun for Barry Bonds,:ohno:
still tied at 754 Hrs with Hank Aaron,

Florida Marlins:banana: wins 8,
San Francisco, 5

Again, second day in a row, M.Cabarer hits a Home run.:cheers:

thetallerthebetter

July 30th, 2007, 01:26 AM

Anyone can break records if they cheat I wish people would stop making a hero out of Barry B he is an arrogant assh**e!

miamicanes

July 30th, 2007, 02:11 AM

There isn't any league for a hypothetical Miami team to join to play the big clubs in South America as those leagues are all organized by country and they only compete outside them in occassional tournaments or exhibition matches.
Oops. So much for that idea.

I say we get a marlins ballpark in downtown with a permanent roof for cooling/rain issues and put a nice big parking lot under/next to it too.
Yep. Frankly, I'm surprised that putting stadiums and arenas above a multilevel garage isn't the norm. Then again, I've wondered the same thing about urban churches...It just seems so eminently sensible, and kills multiple birds with one stone...

Hia-leah JDM

July 30th, 2007, 03:17 AM

Atlanta is a godawful sports town, agreed.

As for Miami/South Florida, I think few people would rank it as a good sports market even if it's a step above someplace like Atlanta. Other than the Dolphins---which are a civic institution ---every team has had significant attendance problems. Yes, the Heat sold out every game but to deny that a significant number of no-shows aren't a very real phenomenon at their games is simply not true. Like you, my dad also has season-tix and I see it myself a few times every season.

Marlins attendance speaks for itself. Abysmal. The Hurricanes also draw lousy crowds when it's not a "name" opponent.

As for the old "there's nothing else to do" line about "good" sports towns, I once believed the same thing but have learned it's a complete fallacy. There's just as much to do in any big city...it's just that the options are different.

I think the difference in attendance/passion, etc. is much more a result of people tending to have deeper roots in those cities that many do in South Florida or other Sunbelt locales. Miami is a transient city and a large number of people don't consider it genuinely "home" and tend not to attach themselves thoroughly to the place by identifying with the local teams or supporting local cultural institutions, etc.

Over time, that could certainly change but at this point in time I think it presents a very real challenge to those interests (not just sports teams) that need a loyal, ticket-buying base to thrive.

My dad has been a season ticket holder for years too and hes told me that the heats attendance was average a couple of years ago but in the last 2 or 3 years theyve been almost all sell outs and I just asked him about the no shows and he said he hasnt seen them.

MAH45462

July 30th, 2007, 04:37 AM

My dad has been a season ticket holder for years too and hes told me that the heats attendance was average a couple of years ago but in the last 2 or 3 years theyve been almost all sell outs and I just asked him about the no shows and he said he hasnt seen them.

Neither have I. Pretty much every game I went to was flat out sold out. What the Heat do have a problem with is that people tend to arrive very late. The arena is never really full until the end of the first quarter. Also, the empty seats are pretty much all in the lower bowl premium seats, where ticketholders have access to a pair of lounges located underneath, and move between the game and the lounges often.

CalleOchoGringo

July 30th, 2007, 04:38 AM

Marlins attendance speaks for itself. Abysmal. The Hurricanes also draw lousy crowds when it's not a "name" opponent.

In general... Baseball has always been a Northerners sport and Football a Southerners sport. Basketball a city sport and NASCAR a rural (usually southern rural) sport. And soccer is an "EVERYONE but Americans" sport. This doesn't account for little ethnic quirks here or there, just a very general stereotype that tends to hold up even today.

Thats probably why the Marlins get bad attendance.

Hia-leah JDM

July 30th, 2007, 06:54 AM

Lets see we Have the Heat, Dolphins, Marlins, and Panthers. Those are the big four, not many cities or metros have that.
The Heat have the 5th best attendance in the NBA and huge fan base here and through out the country.
The Dolphins have the 6th or 7th best attendance in the NFL and arguibly the largest fan base in the country and even through out the world.
The Marlins have the second lowest attendance in the MLB, but one of the highest ranking tv ratings and throughout the years have had booming attendance but then the mosthorrible thing that can happen to a team happens....TWICE! The whole team is traded and that is always going to detour fans, but still if the team starts holding up and eventually gets a stadium Downtown it can only get better, they are already seeing a spike in attendance this year and a big spike in tv ratings again so the fan base is their the team just has to stay intact now and be succesful.
The Panthers have an average attendance not the best but certianly not the lowest, that can probaly be because the horrible location they are in, but the fanbase is also there, this team also will see btter attendance once they get succesful because as of now the young team has been average, its been to the finals once and has never won the Stanely Cup.
So in a quick summary Miami is not an excellent sports town but I'll say its a great one, our teams have big fan bases and besides the Marlins the other teams have Excellent, Great, and average attendance, but they all have big fanbases.
Oh and the Hurricanes, I really dont know if they have good or bad attendance but they surely have a huge following throughout the country speaking from obsrvation and experience.

MiamiMike

July 30th, 2007, 08:09 PM

In general... Baseball has always been a Northerners sport and Football a Southerners sport..

Try telling that to Philadelphia Eagles fans..............or Green Bay Packers fans............or Chicago Bears fans............I could go on and on. Football is an AMERICAN (as in U.S.) sport.

I grew up up-north and football was always #1 to most people. In my father's day I would venture to say baseball was #1 to most people.

I think your comments on soccer and nascar were dead on though:)

SoBe99

July 30th, 2007, 08:28 PM

Heat attendance has only been good since Shaq showed up and the team won a championship. Before he arrived, they were always near the bottom of the NBA.

Also, NBA counts attendance based on tickets paid, not turnstyle actual attendance in the seats. The season was sold out before it even began because of the championship season, but actual attendance was poor. You could always see many empty seats on tv.

Hia-leah JDM

July 30th, 2007, 10:35 PM

Buddy you are going to see empty seats in any arena, just from TV you could tell the arena was always preety packed, and people that go to the games religously will tell you it always seems sold out. And of course attendance improved once they got a better team assembled, thats going to happen anywhere, because before that they had never one a championship and didnt have star players like now.

spellbound

July 30th, 2007, 11:05 PM

Football is definitely king here in Philly, as it is in most of the country. All the teams do pretty well here, but there's absolutely no question the Eagles dominate the airwaves and in sheer number of fans.

I'll be at the Dolphins/Eagles game this November, btw. You guys will have to say some prayers for me!:lol:

MiamiMike

July 31st, 2007, 01:00 AM

Football is definitely king here in Philly, as it is in most of the country.

Thats why I thought of them first spellbound. Definately a football town all the way. I wish I would have gotten to see a game at Veterans stadium........I heard it was so crazy there they had a court room in the basement of the stadium for all the arrests that would occur.........lol.
Is this true???

spellbound

July 31st, 2007, 01:10 AM

Thats why I thought of them first spellbound. Definately a football town all the way. I wish I would have gotten to see a game at Veterans stadium........I heard it was so crazy there they had a court room in the basement of the stadium for all the arrests that would occur.........lol.
Is this true???

It's true. Not sure if they've continued the practice at the new stadium (which is gorgeous) but I wouldn't be surprised. The fans here are loony.

I was at the Vet a few times as a kid (I have a long family history here despite growing up in Miami) but the best experience was seeing the Dolphins play the Eagles there in the mid 1990s. I got the ticket long before the season started and as fate would have it that turned out to be the game where Shula broke the all-time wins record. Pretty special to be there that day and the Eagles fans were actually pretty good sports as I recall.

MAH45462

July 31st, 2007, 03:52 AM

Heat attendance has only been good since Shaq showed up and the team won a championship. Before he arrived, they were always near the bottom of the NBA.

You sure do love to make-up facts. The HEAT were never near the bottom. They were middle of the pack.

ftlauddude

July 31st, 2007, 03:11 PM

SoBe99

July 31st, 2007, 05:25 PM

You sure do love to make-up facts. The HEAT were never near the bottom. They were middle of the pack.

You sure suck at the internet. Do some research on the pre-shaq attendance rankings and get back to me. In the year before shaq arrived they had the 6th worst in the NBA. Years before were similar. :bash:

Hia-leah JDM

July 31st, 2007, 05:58 PM

I think the reason they r moving is because there r not enough fans! Seriously, the majority of the population here is foreign and from South America, where soccer is the king--except for Venezuela although that's changing. The rest of the other races r not much baseball fans either. Whites, non-hispanic origin, like football. Blacks, non-hispanic origin, like basketball. The only ones i'd think they'd be really fans of the marlins r the islanders--cubans, dominicas, and PR's....

I dont know how they lasted that long...

They arent leaving as of now, they've got a deal with the city and the county now its just the state that wont give them money so it looks like they are searching for another way to get the money the state wont give them.
And again I have to disagree with you, because the Marlins do really have a large fanbase, and that is evident in the t.v ratings, merchandise sales and the good attendance they get when the team is doing good, the real reason they have low attendance now is because the obvious excuse of the weather (retractable roof needed), and because the team has already been completely traded off twice in their short existence making the fans weary and the fans not being able to have full confidence theyre going to have the same team.

DOWNTOWNER

August 27th, 2007, 01:24 AM

Is it just assumed the marlins will now go to the OB site??? Anyone know if they are still trying to maneuver for the downtown site???

305Lover

August 27th, 2007, 01:28 AM

Is it just assumed the marlins will now go to the OB site??? Anyone know if they are still trying to maneuver for the downtown site???

Im hoping that they get the downtown site. Hopefully it would improve that area, along with Logik. That would be really nice, having the stadium surrounded by high rises.

southfloridamiamian

August 27th, 2007, 01:34 AM

I think the marlins will have to settle for lil havana...Hey atleast lil havana is going vertical these days and a new state of the art stadium could really help the development of the area...and its still pretty close to downtown...the views when they play the games on tv will be aswome....

305Lover

August 27th, 2007, 02:30 AM

Its funny to me to think that there is going to be an increase in nonhispanic people in Little Havana if they go there.

Hia-leah JDM

August 27th, 2007, 03:23 AM

Im happy with the Little Havana site, the area is really dense and can turn for the better with this stadium, and like southfloridamiamian said the view of the skyline from the stadium would be awesome on tv games, and its close to downtown.

BUT! I would hope and definetly prefer a Downtown site, but it seems they are going have to settle with Little havana.

dave8721

August 27th, 2007, 02:01 PM

Article on why the Orange Bowl would be a terrible site (its impossible to get to during weekday rush hour which is when 70% of the games start)

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami_dade/story/216228.html

STREETWISE
LARRY LEBOWITZ

Why OB is lousy site for Marlins

BY LARRY LEBOWITZ
llebowitz@MiamiHerald.com

The University of Miami football program is forsaking the leaky, creaky, nostalgic dump that is the Orange Bowl for Wayne Huizenga's ruthlessly efficient profit center at the Stadium Formerly Known as Joe Robbie.

History marches briskly. City and county leaders quickly squeezed the sour news of the Canes sad but inevitable departure from the OB into new political lemonade.

Millions of tax dollars that had been set aside to renovate the Orange Bowl could now be reallocated, they said, pumping more money and life into the 3,258th proposal to build a 37,000-seat retractable-roof ballpark for the Florida Marlins.

Purely from a transportation perspective, the Orange Bowl site is a lousy one.

Without serious highway and mass-transit improvements, it would be bad for the Little Havana neighborhood near the OB, bad for the ball club, bad for fans.

Access and public transportation are among the primary reasons the Marlins and Major League Baseball have repeatedly pushed for new stadium sites east of Interstate 95 in downtown Miami. But politics and economics have crippled most of the downtown sites proposed in recent years.

County Commissioner and former Miami City Manager Carlos Gimenez says local leaders realize the OB site isn't perfect: ``I think it's viable. Viable, not ideal. There are some serious access issues. But it could work.''

Pro baseball is a vastly different beast than college football.

The Canes played, at most, seven home games each fall, almost always on Saturdays. The Marlins play 81 home dates a year, about 70 percent of them on weekday evenings. This means fans would be fighting early evening, rush-hour traffic to get to Little Havana for a 7:05 p.m. start for 56 or so games a year.

Ever try driving west on the Dolphin Expressway (State Road 836) on a weekday afternoon after 4:30 p.m.?

Assuming that the plan would include enough on-site parking to accommodate the luxury suite patrons and perhaps another 10,000 or so fans -- and that's a big assumption -- what happens if the team actually starts to draw bigger crowds?

The alleged ''charm'' of haggling with Little Havana locals to park on their front lawns -- a rite of passage for UM fans every fall -- isn't going to wear well over a long hot summer of baseball.

The bowl's locale, a few blocks south of the Miami River, magnifies the access headaches.

In theory, five drawbridges carry vehicles over the river.

In reality, one (Northwest Seventh Avenue/Fifth Street) is completely gone and won't be rebuilt until 2011; another (NW 17th Avenue) is so unsafe that the county was forced to close it earlier this month with little notice, and a third (NW 12th Avenue) is being rebuilt and won't reopen until February 2009.

And all of the bridges still must open, on demand, for marine vessels.

Mass-transit options are pretty slim.

What happens to all of the Broward and Palm Beach countybaseball fans who drive Florida's Turnpike to Dolphin Stadium?

Tri-Rail isn't much of an option. It's a pain to get from the Miami Airport Station to the Orange Bowl today. Even if Miami-Dade Transit created a straight-shot, game-day shuttle from the Tri-Rail station to the OB, how many baseball fans to the north would use it?

Metrorail will only appeal to hard-core urban dwellers. It's a little over a mile -- too far to walk for most pampered, crime-fearing locals -- from the closest Metrorail stations on the north side of the river to the Orange Bowl.

Barring some unlikely seismic political changes at County Hall, no one will be trying to shift billions of transit dollars to expand Metrorail near the OB in the near future.

What about a streetcar that could shuttle fans from downtown transit hubs?

Right now, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz can't muster a three-vote majority of commissioners to support a streetcar in downtown, Wynwood, the Design District and Allapattah -- all on the opposite side of the river from the stadium.

A ballpark in downtown would be closer to I-95, Metrorail, Metromover, and a proposed light-rail system on the Florida East Coast corridor that one day could shuttle fans from Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade counties.

The economics and politics might be tougher, but an accessible, pedestrian-friendly downtown stadium makes the most sense.

AddictedToSpace

August 27th, 2007, 03:40 PM

brickell

August 27th, 2007, 04:58 PM

Agreed.
I'd love to see the OB site turn into our own version Wrigleyville, but without better transit access from throughout the metro that will never happen. If if current plans help, that won't be in place for many many years. This needs to go downtown.

BornInTheGrove

August 27th, 2007, 09:22 PM

call me crazy.... but the marlins stadium could be a plus for the E/W line for the county's metrorail line.

brickell

August 27th, 2007, 10:39 PM

Could be. . . in 30 years. From what we've seen it's not even on the table right now. By that time, they'll be threatening to move if they don't get a new "new stadium".

FTL Beach Bum

August 27th, 2007, 11:38 PM

He nailed it on the head.

I won't be caught dead anywhere near the 836 on a weekday evening.

And I believe I speak for about 80% of all Broward/Palm Beach county residents when I say so.

Downtown at least has its options.

AddictedToSpace

August 28th, 2007, 09:34 PM

http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2007/08/28/15/327-selig.highlight.prod_affiliate.56.jpg

http://www.miamiherald.com/589/story/218008.html

BY BARRY JACKSON
bjackson@MiamiHerald.com

Major League Baseball commissioner Bud Selig and MLB president Bob DuPuy were in South Florida on Tuesday to try to push ahead the plans for a new Marlins ballpark.

Selig, DuPuy and Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria were to meet with Miami and Miami-Dade County officials Tuesday afternoon.

With the University of Miami announcing it was moving to Dolphin Stadium in 2008, recent talks have focused on the Orange Bowl site. A retractable-roof stadium is expected to cost at least $500 million.

The Marlins and Major League Baseball prefer a downtown Miami site, but Miami-Dade Manager George Burgess said the Orange Bowl site would be less costly and less complicated.

This marks Selig's first visit to South Florida to try to resolve the stadium issue.

Selig is expected to hold a 5 p.m. news conference to discuss the Marlins' future.

GonzoToLuisToLee

August 28th, 2007, 09:48 PM

This is the LAST option for a ballpark. It is either here or in San Antonio.

The article fails to mention the OB site opens up a new market to the Marlins for weeknight ticket sales: Southwest Miami-Dade. Going east on the 836 on a weeknight is a piece of cake. The Marlins have never drawn well from the SW Miami-Dade area during weeknights because of the traffic headed north.

Hia-leah JDM

August 28th, 2007, 10:47 PM

Hope something comes out of this meeting today and something is announced today.

southfloridamiamian

August 28th, 2007, 10:51 PM

lol the moment of truth...the suspense is killin

305Lover

August 28th, 2007, 11:51 PM

Are the Marlins still having competition for the downtown property, from that other organization, something about children?

AddictedToSpace

August 29th, 2007, 12:51 AM

Are the Marlins still having competition for the downtown property, from that other organization, something about children?

Funny, not to say that a children's court is not important, but there are plenty of court houses in downtown right now. How many of those are beyond capacity? I know I read not too long ago that there are less Federal Trials in Miami than in the Eighties. There has to be some compromise.

Toucano

August 29th, 2007, 03:22 AM

Are the Marlins still having competition for the downtown property, from that other organization, something about children?

You Mean the Children's Courthouse???

CalleOchoGringo

August 29th, 2007, 04:12 AM

I keep hearing the same argument from lots people who don't want the OB downtown (mostly on the TransitMiami forum not so much here). Their argument is that it will take valuable space away from the CBD. Well that's why it needs to go just Northwest of Overtown station, like I have been stating for months now. The space there is: bordering downtown, its (not close but RIGHT AT) the metrorail station, right at I-95, and best of all... the only thing it will be replacing are the neighborhoods where I buy my crack on Saturdays. I'm talking about the area due west of the NAP of Americas and the Madison. But on the west side of those FEC tracks and the Metrorail tracks. That's the ONLY good place for it in the county.

South Border = NW 8th St.
West Border = NW 3th Ave.
North Border = Metrorail Tracks (curve)
East Border = Metrorail Tracks (curve)

If the area just NW of gov't center station (recently discussed by the city) is big enough, than this parcel is certainly big enough as it is nearly twice that size. The parking for it (if any is necessary as downtown has plenty of parking at night when no one is at work) can be built underneath it.

Build a ballpark, gentrify a neighborhood... 2 for the price of one.

NOW... having said that if this ballpark is to be built with taxpayers funds then I propose several other more appropriate sites:
- Ft. Lauterdale,
- San Antonio,
- Atlantic Ocean,
- Somewhere else FAR FAR away from anywhere paid for by one BLOODY CENT of Miami tax payer money!!! (Thats what wealthy owners and jacked up ticket prices are for.)

305Lover

August 29th, 2007, 03:02 PM

You Mean the Children's Courthouse???

Something like that. I remember reading an article in the Herald that the property was going to go to them or that childrens courthouse. Whats the status on that?

brickell

August 29th, 2007, 08:21 PM

Then there's this article from today's Herald which seems to say that the OB site is the one being discussed, despite earlier intentions that it was the downtown site that MLB wanted.

http://www.miamiherald.com/top_stories/story/218583.html

305Lover

August 29th, 2007, 08:34 PM

"Even though the Marlins rank last in the National League in attendance"
That is sad.

AddictedToSpace

August 29th, 2007, 08:43 PM

"Even though the Marlins rank last in the National League in attendance"
That is sad.

Do you remember when we won the World Series in 1997? Well that teams salary was about ten times todays. Granted having the most money will not guarantee a championship, Yankees in 2006, it definitely helps. A team that does not make money the way other teams do through concession sales, luxury boxes, parking will not be able to shell out the big bucks for the big stars. The old saying it takes money to make money comes to mind. Granted yes Millionaire owners don't need help, but they are not charities either. Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hospitals, Churches, School are all business that are in it for profit or at the very least have operating costs to contend with. Damn it no more ranting build the damn thing in Downtown already.

MiamiMike

August 30th, 2007, 05:51 AM

I like calleochogringos proposition better than the Orange Bowl site.

Its really a good idea.

spellbound

August 30th, 2007, 11:32 AM

There's no sugarcoating the Marlins attendance problems. They draw flies regardless of the "flavor-of-the-month" excuse for it. Why make any attempt to deny it, y'know? It's reality.

That said, I'd love to know what's REALLY taking place right now in regards to finally getting a ballpark off the ground. No question the team (and MLB itself) favors a downtown site much more than the OB (or more accurately the former site of the OB).

Everything about a downtown site is better. Better transit options...more easy access to potential customers with disposable income...better atmosphere...just more urban, more modern-day baseball, and more "oomph" there...FAR more, actually.

I dunno...the OB site is still pretty dreary when all is said and done. I know we're all urbanists here (a group that thrives on optimism) but to be honest that part of town looks just as threadbare and wanting as it has for the past 30 years.

To put it another way, ask yourself this: If YOU owned the Marlins, would you be genuinely excited about the OB site or would you keep fighting for downtown? C'mon.

Understood they may have to settle for something less than they wanted but if the team winds up in an empty playpen then eventually the moving vans will arrive.

I think the smarter move is still downtown. The OB site should just revert to a park. Its days as a centrally located sports venue are long past.