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MTLskyline
November 25th, 2005, 02:10 AM
Well it looks like Loria and Samson are at it again, they're planning on sabotaging the Marlins and relocating them to Vegas or something... Sounds familiar. :bash:

Although this makes me recall how much I miss the Expos, they were the team I rooted for in the summer, I went to see countless games at the Big O. I'm not really a fan of any team at the moment, I don't cheer for any non-Montreal teams in any sport. Although I definatley sympathize with Marlins fans.

Here Loria goes again

Dayn Perry / FOXSports.com
Posted: 17 hours ago

The Florida Marlins have traded away right-hander Josh Beckett, who at times possesses ace stuff and at times purveys ace results, and it appears his is merely the first exodus out of Miami.

Laying aside for the moment whether the Beckett deal makes sense on a baseball level, the whole affair has the whiff of malice aforethought about it. As you're probably aware, the Marlins are currently at loggerheads with local leaders over the matter of building a new stadium. In fact, team president David Samson said Tuesday that a stadium deal with the city of Miami is now impossible. It's little surprise that he followed up that pronouncement with an explicit threat to move the team by 2008. Major League Baseball, holding up its end of the bargain, has granted the Marlins permission to begin exploring relocation options. Those "relocation options" will consist, part and parcel, of cities willing to lead MLB to the public trough.

As for the matter of conducting the organization's second major fire sale in the past eight years, it allows the organization to wail to the heavens about how impoverished it is. The message is that the Marlins, without a taxpayer-funded stadium, can't afford to keep its marquee players in the fold. Nonsense. MLB is utterly without credibility on matters of internal finance. It's a wildly profitable industry no matter how many times Selig and the owners say otherwise. At this stage of things, consider the present affair to be a punitive measure toward the fans of South Florida. Then again, it's S.O.P. for baseball these days. Under commissioner Bud Selig's "leadership" MLB has cultivated a galling sense of entitlement when it comes to public subsidies. "Buy us a stadium, or the team gets it" is the sickening mantra. Call it what it is: extortion.

To justify such layouts, some city leaders and MLB apparatchiks will trot out laughable claims of the local economic development that will follow. Those claims, of course, have been roundly debunked by economists near and far. Essentially, new ballparks do nothing but provide a handful of part-time, seasonal, low-wage jobs and reshuffle revenues within the municipality in question. The economic growth they provide is either negligible or negative.

On another level, liberals, conservatives and moderates should be in accord on this point: it's not the government's responsibility to buy places of business for private industry. In essence, when baseball raids the public coffers for construction costs, infrastructure costs and charitable lease arrangements, that's what happens — the team gets a new revenue source courtesy of the taxpayers. It's corporate welfare in its most odious form, and because Miami city leaders won't indulge the owners, they're poised to lose their team.

It should come as no surprise that the Marlins' owner — the Smithers to Bud Selig's Montgomery Burns — is none other than the contemptible Jeffrey Loria. Loria, you'll recall, played the saboteur as owner of the Montreal Expos. Under Loria's corrupt hand, the Expos did things like allow a lease to expire on downtown Montreal land, fail to negotiate a television contract, fail to provide English-language radio broadcasts and systematically alienate its fan base in countless other ways. Loria's efforts snuffed out baseball in Montreal and allowed MLB to move the team to D.C., a city whose leaders were more willing to cough up public subsidies. Selig then rewarded Loria's misdeeds by not only granting him ownership of the Marlins, but also floating him a loan to that end.

Now the cycle repeats itself. Loria and the team spurn the community, and fans — justifiably feeling betrayed — stop showing up at the ballpark. Presto: The team must be relocated. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy on the part of ownership, and it's no surprise that Loria is once again the point man.

As for the ongoing fire sale, A.J. Burnett won't be re-signed, and rumors suggest that Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca, Juan Pierre and or Luis Castillo could soon be following Beckett out of town. Again, the prevailing focus shouldn't be on whether these deals are sound baseball decisions (for instance, getting something of value for Lo Duca and Pierre would be a wise play). Just keep in mind that the Marlins are proving they have inadequate fan support by driving fans away. Well played, Mr. Loria.

It's a credit to Miami city leaders that they didn't capitulate, and baseball fans in the region should take a "good riddance" approach with the team. Unfortunately, such resolve is all too uncommon. If more local leaders don't summon the, ahem, testicular fortitude (not likely) or if MLB doesn't end its bloodlust for corporate entitlements (all but impossible), then perhaps it's time to explore legislation. Banning public subsidies for sports facilities is something voters and elected officials need to consider. Otherwise, malfeasances such as the one going on in South Florida will continue. It's time for wards of the state like Selig and Loria to begin paying their own way, and it's time for MLB to stop treating fans of the game with such brazen contempt.

malek
November 25th, 2005, 04:40 AM
no I don't miss beasball at all.

It was fun times, but now they belong to my childhood memories.

MTLskyline
November 25th, 2005, 05:18 AM
^ Is there anything that turned you off baseball?
'94 strike/firesales?
or did you just grow out of it?

malek
November 25th, 2005, 08:14 AM
the strike for sure.

Then the firesales...

... then not seeing it on tv, total blackout.
etc etc. The moment I heard there was no Expos on TV, I knew Loria was up to something, that SOB tricky bastard.

habsfan
November 25th, 2005, 04:15 PM
Well, well, well! Look at what's happenning again! Does any of this sound familiar?

I miss baseball, but I'm not willing to spend my tax dollars to build a new stadium(even if it meant the expos could come back!)

I was also turned off(that's puttin' it mildly) by the 94' strike...then with all the fire sales (Walker, Hill, Wetteland, Grissom, Lansing, Pedro Martinez, Floyd, White, Guerrero, Alou, Pavano, etc.etc.etc.) I was a good fan...not a great fan but a good fan. I'd go to the big Owe about 5-10 times per year(some might say that isnT' much, but it's still better then nothing!? What really pissed me off though was when Pedro was trade in 97-98...

My advice to Marlins fans...start cheering for another team right away, Cause you'Re about to lose your team. i feel for you, but you had to expect it with Loria and Samson(the little prick!)

JAB323
November 25th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Now we've got the Nationals, so I'm glad they aren't there!!!

MTLskyline
November 25th, 2005, 09:47 PM
Loria and Samson deserve nicknames, like the guy in the article pointed out, although with a minor adjustment:
Loria shall become Monty Burns
and Samson >>>> Smithers!

I wasn't turned off so quickly by the firesales, because the Expos always had some great young talent to replace them, although it did suck to see countless stars leave to become all-stars.

Notice that most of the last few years world series winning teams had former Expos on the tean? 2005 White Sox had Geoff Blum. 2004 Red Sox had Orlando Cabrera. 2003 Marlins, had Carl Pavano, Ugueth Urbina and Mike Mordecai. 2002 Angels had Brad Fullmer. 2001 Diamondbacks had Randy Johnson and Miguel Batista. The list goes on and on. It seems as though former Expos are the key to victory. At the moment I'm cheering for former Expos to do well, but not for any team in particular.

habsfan
November 25th, 2005, 10:03 PM
I'd say since the departure of the Expos, the majority of people who still care about Baseball in Montreal are cheering for the Red Sox. Before the expos came to town, most people here cheered for the BoSox...looks like it'll stay that way!

MTLskyline
November 25th, 2005, 11:07 PM
^ Yes, I think most of them became Sox fans... (I lean towards the Sox now myself)

This stadium would have been great though:
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2416/labatt5sf.jpg

habsfan
November 25th, 2005, 11:31 PM
It would have been awesome. I still believe that it would have saved the Expos...just look at what happenned to the Als when they moved Downtown.

Location wise, it was perfect, plus the design wasnt too shabby either!

TooFar
November 26th, 2005, 05:25 AM
The strike is a lame excuse, either you are a fan of baseball and the Expos or you were not. Did you stop following the Habs because of its lock out?

DrJoe
November 26th, 2005, 06:43 AM
That stadium looks like it would have been pretty awesome. Would it have been right smack in that location or is that a little skewed??

No doubt if that stadium had been built and the team properly run they could've been sucessful.

simadon
November 26th, 2005, 08:57 PM
why do MTL baseball fans cheer Red Sox...why not for the Jays?...I guess thats a dumb question.


I miss the expos.

Tosco
November 26th, 2005, 09:40 PM
I liked the Expos when the team had good players: Pascual Perez, Tim Wallach, Andres Galarraga, Buck Roogers (coach), etc.

I must recognise that it's sad to know that we won't see the Expos anymore.

habsfan
November 28th, 2005, 04:41 PM
The strike is a lame excuse, either you are a fan of baseball and the Expos or you were not. Did you stop following the Habs because of its lock out?

I'm not sure who your response was aimed at, but Like I said in my post, it was an accumulation of the Strike and ALL the FIRE SALES!

You could make an all star team with all the players the Espos let go of between 1994 and 2004.

Looks like the same thing is starting to happen in south florida...let's see how good the fans are down there(in a real amareican market!)

samsonyuen
November 29th, 2005, 10:37 PM
Yeah, it stinks that Montréal has no team anymore. If they built a stadium downtown, they would've lasted...:(

malek
November 29th, 2005, 11:55 PM
The strike is a lame excuse, either you are a fan of baseball and the Expos or you were not. Did you stop following the Habs because of its lock out?

no its not, the EXPOS were first in the National I believe and ahead by 6 games to the Braves in their division... and the season had more games behind it than ahead...

Moreover, that 1st position was never acknowledged because it was lost forever, no one cared about the Expos fans.

marek bielski
November 30th, 2005, 05:17 AM
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2416/labatt5sf.jpg

That is an awesome view, any large stadium would be much better than the commie blocks being build there by our friends from Edmonton. Actually anything would be better than what is happening to this area right now but that is beside the point. But there is no need to cry over the baseball team. Remember the owners wanted the city and provincial govn'ts to build the stadium for them. Stadium or hospitals/schools? It is a no-brainer. Who cares if Mtl is not in the late sports news in North America in summertime? No problem there really. Glad to see province investing in education infrastructure ...

malek
November 30th, 2005, 06:47 AM
yeah honnestly, who cares about Baseball, i much prefer the city getting the kind of coverage from F1, tennis, Champ Car, World swimming championships, Young Fifa 2007, maybe nascar in one year, outgames next year, etc etc. Much better for us than the outdated baseball.

marek bielski
November 30th, 2005, 07:02 AM
^^
can't beat F1, what is happening with Nascar? Is there a chance of them racing in Mtl?

habsfan
November 30th, 2005, 04:50 PM
any large stadium would be much better than the commie blocks being build there by our friends from Edmonton

I don't agree...Obviously i would've preferred seeing the stadium built there, but at least teh Commie blocs from Edmonton will ad more people to the downtown core(not that we really need it, but its always a good things!)

It is a no-brainer. Who cares if Mtl is not in the late sports news in North America in summertime? No problem there really.

That's true...where would you rather be on a beautiful summer evening...at a ball game or on a Terrasse!?!?! :)

can't beat F1, what is happening with Nascar? Is there a chance of them racing in Mtl?

I believe Normand Legault is gonna drop Champ Car, and concentrate on bringing NASCAR to Montreal. I don'T necessarily agree with that( i much prefer watching Champ car rather then Nascar).

malek
November 30th, 2005, 09:24 PM
GENTLEMEN START YOUR ENGINES!

MTLskyline
December 1st, 2005, 01:54 AM
I guess I'm in a city with many who disagree, but I think baseball is great. I am more for team sports then individual sports. The Expos tickets were dirt cheap and we had a .500 team leading up to their departure, even when we traded talent, we always had young players to replace them. We would never have discovered Guerrero if it werent for trading players such as Rondell White, Moises Alou, etc, or Cabrera if we didnt trade Grudzelanek, or Vidro if we didnt trade Lansing.

I agree that it shouldnt have been public money to pay for a new park. I find Montreal's businessmen too weak and conservative to make a big move, when they were the ones that should have payed for it.

About the commie blocks, I cant stand them, they look so bloody cheap, and something found in suburbia. Even if it brings more people downtown, I still hate it. Im sure that someone else could have done a much better job and made a nice design, so we wouldnt have to look at something like this, eek.

marek bielski
December 1st, 2005, 06:16 AM
I don't agree...Obviously i would've preferred seeing the stadium built there, but at least teh Commie blocs from Edmonton will ad more people to the downtown core(not that we really need it, but its always a good things!).
Can't agree with you. This place has location, location, location. This was propably one of the best addresses in downtown Mtl when taking into consideration size of the lot, view and ... location ;) It deserved better imho ...
When it comes to people in downtown core, well Mtl has plenty of people spending their time in downtown but not too many actually living there (you see I come from Europe so I have a different understanding what urban density means ;) And knowing Hogtown well can say that it propably has more full-time people living in the downtown core even taking into consideration the relative sizes of the cities). So if I had to choose between residentials and office towers I would take the former hands down.

I believe Normand Legault is gonna drop Champ Car, and concentrate on bringing NASCAR to Montreal. I don'T necessarily agree with that( i much prefer watching Champ car rather then Nascar).
Interesting with NASCAR but I will pass. I am interested however in Impact stadium, what is the latest?

marek bielski
December 1st, 2005, 06:17 AM
About the commie blocks, I cant stand them, they look so bloody cheap, and something found in suburbia. Even if it brings more people downtown, I still hate it. Im sure that someone else could have done a much better job and made a nice design, so we wouldnt have to look at something like this, eek.
but they are a great way to eliminate sprawl and make public transportation viable ...

MTLskyline
December 1st, 2005, 05:20 PM
but they are a great way to eliminate sprawl and make public transportation viable ...
but in your previous post you said you wished something better went up there?
I agree that some sort of construction should have went there, just not so fugly. A couple of 20-30 story well designed glass condo towers would have been perfect. Cheap bricks dont look good in that area.

I believe that urban infill is far superior to sprawl, but I think a city like Montreal needs to be a bit picky of what goes up in the city, whereas 95% of suburbs are already fugly. We cant just let anything be built. Montreal has a certain prestige and name attached to it that it must maintain.

habsfan
December 1st, 2005, 05:40 PM
"And knowing Hogtown well can say that it propably has more full-time people living in the downtown core even taking into consideration the relative sizes of the cities). "

That doesn'T surprise me...have you seen the number of residential High rises that have been built there in the past 5 years!?! It's crazy!

habsfan
December 1st, 2005, 05:43 PM
"Can't agree with you. This place has location, location, location. This was propably one of the best addresses in downtown Mtl when taking into consideration size of the lot, view and ... location It deserved better imho ... "

I agree with you marek, it's just that the Stadium thing was never gonna happen...people here(the business community) are too chicken!!

Ans instead of have this huge empty field...we have a bunch of mid rises on the lot. True its ugly, but what can you do...there aren't that many proposals for Residential towers in Montreal...it'S not like there were 15 different promoters fighting for this parcel of land...not to mention that there are still many excellent percels of land available smack in the middle of downtown(Ie: 1300 René-Lévesque...across from the Bell CEnter)

marek bielski
December 1st, 2005, 08:43 PM
but in your previous post you said you wished something better went up there?
I agree that some sort of construction should have went there, just not so fugly. A couple of 20-30 story well designed glass condo towers would have been perfect. Cheap bricks dont look good in that area.

Commie blocks are all right but not in downtown area. Check out the Concordia ghetto, propably the worst urban planning decision in Quebec history ...
Longueuil on the other hand is now a sprawling town of residential houses and low apartment blocks, believe me commie blocks would not harm the image of the city ...

I believe that urban infill is far superior to sprawl, but I think a city like Montreal needs to be a bit picky of what goes up in the city, whereas 95% of suburbs are already fugly. We cant just let anything be built. Montreal has a certain prestige and name attached to it that it must maintain.
Same goes to every city.
Montreal needs to stop the sprawl. But how?

marek bielski
December 1st, 2005, 08:45 PM
"And knowing Hogtown well can say that it propably has more full-time people living in the downtown core even taking into consideration the relative sizes of the cities). "

That doesn'T surprise me...have you seen the number of residential High rises that have been built there in the past 5 years!?! It's crazy!

Yeah it is impressive if you don't live there. Toronto is often priced out for young people. That is the other side of the story, Montreal is still affordable ...
Some of the plans are impressive though - City Place by Lake Ontario is a huge development of 20 towers. Impressive how quickly they sell out.

habsfan
December 1st, 2005, 08:52 PM
"Montreal is still affordable ..."

That's a very good thing!