Boeing trying to steal Airbus A380's thunder



Call it the jumbo jet formerly known as the 747 Advanced. Call it - as Boeing Co. marketers do - the "Intercontinental." Boeing may have launched the 747-8 program with orders from two cargo airlines, but the company says it also expects to sell passenger versions of the plane over time.

Qantas and British Airways could be among the biggest buyers of the passenger version.

Reports out of Australia say Qantas is looking to buy as many as 20 747-8s as part of a $16 billion order for up to 100 long-range, wide-body jets, an order that could also include 777s and 787s.

Qantas was a launch customer for the Airbus A380 superjumbo, but The Australian newspaper said last week that the airline was intrigued by Boeing's plans for its new 747. With a range of 9,200 miles, it would be able to carry full passenger loads from Perth to Paris, the newspaper said. And Boeing's Signature Interior, adapted from the award-winning 777, means the Intercontinental could compete well with the A380 in terms of glitz and glamour.

Qantas has said it will announce a decision on whether to buy Boeing jets or Airbus A340s, A350s and A380s after its board meets Dec. 7.

Up to 25 777-200LR/300ERs are also being proposed to Qantas as part of the Australian carrier’s re-equipment campaign, along with as many as 20 747-8s and 45 787s.

....

source: http://heraldnet.com/stories/05/11/16/100bus_corliss001.cfm

About 5 LR's will be modified to carry additional fuel tanks, to Open the Sydney-London route, which was previously impossible, due to the Headwinds.

P.

Welcomed News :)

That sounds like a very good proposed Annoucement as, the 747-8's will be able to be handled at most Airports world wide, while Most Airport still won't be A380 ready probably within a few decades.

And on the other hand, Boeing has treated Qantas well in the past, infact, Boeing has had a strong bond with Qantas from probably the late 50's but definetly the 60's, ever since Qantas recieved its first 707's and then 747's. Then it also goes with QF Domestic, also since the 60's when TAA recieved 727's, then progressed in 737's later.
and the 777-200LR is also pretty beneficial and reliable, but on the other hand with A350's and 787's, We don't exactly know how they will handle, but I'm willing to say that the 787 will handle better than the A350.

Boeing needs to put these dinosaurs out to pasture, how long can you facelift a 40 year old plane before you finally decided to design a new one? Seems like if Boeing had their way we'd be flying 747's in the year 3000 still.

Hope Qantas don't get lumbered with these turkeys, especially since no one else is buying them.

Seems like if Boeing had their way we'd be flying 747's in the year 3000 still.


Well, if it works for them? $$$$$

It has been a looonng run for the 747 though.

Perhaps Qantas knows Peak Oil is on the way and doesn't want to make multibillion dollar R&D efforts for something that'll be obsolete by the time the first unit is built.

The 747 is a very solid design, add in new technology adapted from 787's, there is no reason why the design can't carry on for many more years to come. Personally, i think the 747-8 looks fantastic.

If Qantas are to order the 777-200LR and use them on the Australia-London route, they will be configured to only carry 150-odd pax aimed mainly at business customers.

Boeing needs to put these dinosaurs out to pasture, how long can you facelift a 40 year old plane before you finally decided to design a new one? Seems like if Boeing had their way we'd be flying 747's in the year 3000 still.

Hope Qantas don't get lumbered with these turkeys, especially since no one else is buying them.


The US airforce still uses the Boeing B-52 bombers and thats a design thats over 50 years old now. And there are plans to extend its life out past 2045 .. So I think age of the frame design is irrelevant these days..

Yeah, the equipment inside has gone way beyond little lights and dials these days. At least unlike the B-52, the airframes won't be 80 years old by the time they retire. These planes are still being built new, and on top of that the 747 is the most recognisable aircraft out there.

But I say that the matter of the point is, if Boeing still wants to compete with Airbus successfully, then Boeing will have to make an even Modern version of their Moneymaker, in this case, the 747. Boeing can also get away with a home run against Airbus as The 747 can be Accommodated at most airports worldwide, while only a handfull of airports can handle the A380.

So Boeing can Lenghten the 747 so it could accommodate 600 people and it can still be handled at most Airports worldwide.

^^
Don't forget if Boeing were to make the 747 to accomodate 600 people in 3 classes by lengthening it, it woud probably require a completely different wing design/length, therefore making it harder to get into some ports as well.

Well the thing is they ain't changing everything on the inside, it's really a bare-minimum upgrade.

I don't think the frame isn't irrelevant, it's okay to have old frames for b-52's which are miltary planes, but for commercial jets, a new frame design would be safer. I mean you could still fly 727, it don't make it a good idea! Just like cars get stronger chasis's so plane's get better fuselages, the 747 design is not as structurally strong as an a380, to me, that's a big deal as a flyer.

People say it's a 747 with new technology adapted from the 787 but it's getting almost none, except the engines, otherwise it's the same old wing, the same old fuselage, even the interior is just the signature interior similar to that on the 747LR.

Locke, have a read:
http://747.newairplane.com/

Yeah I read it, lol, 'newairplane.com', well at least they got a sense of humour:P What are you trying to point out though? There is nothing but Boeing marketing spin on that site, just reinforces everything I said, only they cloke stuff with PR spin by saying stuff like 'enhanced' new wing, which in reality means 'same old wing with some minor changes cos we are too cheap to make a new wing' etc etc.

But anyway, proof is in the sales, I don't mind the 787, but the 747-800 is mediocrity at it's best.

^^Locke, i dont get what u i mean, all airframe's are of practically the same density and composition,kevlar and alloys, if u change the engines, aerodynamics and electrical components it is essentially a new aeroplane, only designed for a modern era, anyhow i dont mind the good old 747 design roaming the skies IMHO i think its culturally significant. Moreover, i dont think it is really mediocre at best, it fills the gap between the 777/a340 class and the a380, useful for those that wish to economise on the 200 million pricetag on the a380 and routes which dont require that much seating.

P.

would this mean scraping the 12 orders ofr A380's? Hopefully not, I was looking forawrd to them...

Principles, well the materials themselves do change, the 787 is made from composites, the a380 uses a lot of GLARE, and the 747 uses neither.

The thing is the general fuselage design is not as advanced, the 747 can meet lower certification requirements for it's fuselage because it's classed as a modification of the old 747 design (737 gets away with the same trick), hence the fuselage is not as safe, advanced or structually rigid as an all new design like the a380. This only stands to reason as it was designed with a paper and pen whilst the a380 was made on computer. This is evident for instance in the fact that whilst people joke about the shape of the nose of the a380 it's designed to reduce subsonic noise, the 747 by comparison is much noiser for the pilots. So you got this whole wealth of improvments in the underlying design of the a380 that are not there in the 747 and can not be without a new fuselage and wings. I mean a good 30 years seperate them, there were lots of improvements in that time, some of which can't be implemented in the 747 without starting from scratch.

If it ain't broke, why fix it? Thats my point really.

We may hear an announcement from QF in the morning (8/12/05) before the ASX opens about the new fleet orders. Here's hoping for some 777/787's!! :)

I think its been postponed until tomorrow.

I think its been postponed until tomorrow.

Announcement will happen on December 14th

^^
You beat me to it!! :) I'm starting to get impatient waiting to hear about this order though!!

What is interesting is hearing that the Jetstar fleet will have around 60 a/c (including the A320's) when the international service is in full swing!!

I am Hoping that they will get 777's and 787's Hopefully, I hate the A350, It just looks like a Larger and more crappy looking version of the A330.

How many A380s has Qantas ordered so far?

Does it mean that if Qantas decides for Boeings that it will cancel existing orders of A380?

I think A380 is an airplane no large airline should be without.

Airlines have different markets and they need different types (and sizes) of planes. 12 firm orders for A380 and 8 (?) options for more - they'll fly the big routes MEL/SYD - LAX and LHR and possibly others where they can cram as many people on one plane as possible.

Smaller planes (these new orders) will be for different markets.

Yeah, but still not even Half the World's Major Airports haven't even upgraded their Runways and Facilities to accomodate the A380 so even if some airports are very popular with Qantas, and the routes are deemed A380 worthy, The airport however may not be A380 worthy.

Any airport that Qantas is able to justify using the A380 will have capacity to handle it. Its only US airports which are slow to build A380 capable gates but they will inevitably have to build them. Heathrow, Frankfurt, Singapore, Narita have already got them or are in the process of building them and with LAX these are really the only likely destinations for the A380. Other routes just don't have the density.

Qantas will only have them on their blue ribbon routes. Between the SYD/MEL - LAX & LHR, that will pretty much take up all 12 A380's.

Qantas goes for Boeing!!!!!!! :rock: :banana: :carrot:

Thanks guys for ordering our planes!! :cheers:

http://today.reuters.com/business/newsArticle.aspx?type=ousiv&storyID=2005-12-14T033928Z_01_ARM412563_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESSPRO-AIRLINES-AUSTRALIA-QANTAS-DC.XML

Qantas chooses Boeing for fleet renewal
Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:39 PM ET

SYDNEY (Reuters) - Qantas Airways Ltd., the world's eighth-biggest airline by market value, said on Wednesday it planned to acquire up to 115 Boeing 787 aircraft for its long-awaited fleet renewal. Qantas did not give a cost for the new fleet, but said the list price for 65 B787s was A$13 billion ($10 billion). The carrier has previously said it expected to spend up to A$20 billion on the new aircraft.

The move by Australia's flag carrier comes amid a record year in aircraft orders for Boeing Co. and Airbus, owned 80 percent by the European Aerospace Defense & Space Co. and 20 percent by Britain's BAE Systems Plc.

The two plane manufacturers have recorded more than $100 billion in orders this year, boosted recently when Airbus won a $10 billion deal to supply 150 single-aisle passenger jets to China.

Airlines have been investing heavily, driven by high fuel prices, new models and the need to keep surging low-fare upstarts at bay.

"This fleet plan will give us a modern fleet offering maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs and greater fuel efficiency," Qantas Chairman Margaret Jackson said in a statement.

Qantas said Boeing had designated two engine types for the B787, Rolls Royce and General Electric. Qantas would require up to 145 engines and would start the selection process in 2006.

The airline said it had sought tenders from Airbus and Boeing on ultra-long range variants, but had been unable to find an aircraft that could operate non-stop flights economically between Australia and London and Australia and New York.

Singapore Airlines is also considering taking up to 70 wide-bodied planes for its fleet, industry officials say, in a deal that could be worth up to $10 billion in revenues for the winner.

Qantas' latest fleet investment plan is in addition to A$18 billion it budgeted for fleet renewal between 2000-2010.

Qantas has already ordered 12 A380 superjumbo aircraft, with options for 10 more, to service routes between Australia and the United States and Britain. It also has been taking delivery of Boeing 737-800s to increase this fleet to 33 by the end of 2005.

Qantas' domestic budget carrier Jetstar, which competes with low-cost rival Virgin Blue, is already moving to an all A320-200 fleet of 23 177-seat aircraft by May, replacing 14 Boeing 717-200 planes which carry up to 125 passengers.

Qantas are just plane buying hores now arnt they? :P

115? did I read that right?!

dont they only have 30 or 40 something 767s??

^
they only have 24 767s (Aussie has 6)

115? did I read that right?!

dont they only have 30 or 40 something 767s??
They've ordered 65 firm & options on another 50.

Edit: Woohoo!! :)

It's actually 45 firm, 20 options and 50 "purchase rights".
I remember reading on airliners.net that the A330's caused gate congestion at the domestic terminal in Sydney and Melbourne because of the larger wingspan compared to the 737's and 767's. I don't know if anything has been done about this but won't they have the same problems with the 787's since it's wing span is about the same as the A330's?

I haven't heard anything about those problems mentioned. All i have heard is the problems with the A330 having slow turn-around times.
http://boeingmedia.com/imageView.cfm?id=14269&ResID=4
http://boeingmedia.com/imageView.cfm?id=14273&ResID=4
How good do they look?? :)

hmm..

Where's the ones for Australian :(

I have an Idea, If Qantas is really pushing to Expand Jetstar, why dont Jetstar take over ALL of Qantas Domestic Routes and go back to being just an International Airline.

I saw a photo of the Deal, and on the table infront of Geoff Dixon are 2 models of QF and JQInternational 787's, but however they were in the old 787's design, the one with the Shark Fin like Tail.

^^
Jetstar are lowcost, unless we don't want any full service airlines in Australia (Besides Ozjet, but they're not exactly huge!!), that would be a bad idea.

I saw the photo with Dixon in it, i like the old 787 design better, but apparently it's not practical. Oh well.....:(

Hmm, this was unexpected to say the least, i mean wow 115 787s. i wonder what will happen to the 747-4s hopefully they keep it operating, i love that aircraft.

Qantas fleet(approx)-2011

23 Airbus A320-200 (Jetstar)
4 Airbus A330-201
10 Airbus A330-303
12 Airbus A380
20 Boeing 737-400 ( i think these will be pulled out by then or replaced)
33 Boeing 737-838
30* Boeing 747-400 (*some will be pulled out[a380])
115* 787-8/9 (*No may vary)

5* 767-338s (:) worst plane in the fleet IMHO, Australian airlines might have some (wholly owned by qantas)

Qantas Link
9 Boeing 717-200s
34 Bombardier- dash 8-100/200/300/400
7 Bae 146s

Excellent fleet in my opinion and easily one of the largest in the world

P.

But I guess at least they are friggin good looking on that aircraft, can't wait to see them in person one day. The 787 is one of the best things in Aviation's coming.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/air-wars/2005/12/16/1134703607126.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Air wars

It will enable us to increase point-to-point services to an increased number of destinations. PETER GREGG, Qantas

December 17, 2005

As the air battle over the Asia-Pacific region intensifies, one of the biggest questions is whether Qantas can continue to out-fly its competitors, write Rod Myer and Clive Dorman.

Qantas has come out with all guns blazing in the huge dogfight that is now engulfing the international airline industry. Chief executive Geoff Dixon this week earmarked about $10 billion of a $20 billion capital spend on the next generation of middle-sized aircraft, the yet-to-be-produced Boeing 787, in a move that has been characterised by some as an attempt to be "all things to all people".

The markets loved it, pushing Qantas shares up to almost $3.90, a level touched only briefly three years ago and not sustained for any length of time since before SARS and the Iraq war. Some of the broking houses, who had suffered a dearth of good news in the airline sector, lifted their ratings.

Merrill Lynch set its price target at $4.15 from $3.90, while a more phlegmatic Deutsche Bank moved its price peg from $3.34 to $3.57, meaning things were a little better but Qantas was still flying higher than it should be.

Even Goldman Sachs JBWere raised its rating from sell to hold.

Whichever way you look at it, Qantas has lost some ground since privatisation in 1995. Back then it had 45 per cent of Australia's international airline business compared with 31 per cent now. However, on the earnings front things have actually improved. Qantas' earnings margin before interest and tax now is 8.3 per cent, up from 6.6 per cent 10 years ago.

Margins have been under pressure in recent times as the whole industry metamorphosed under the influence of seismic shifts. High oil prices, a plethora of new low-cost airlines, war, disease, terrorism and muscle flexing by the likes of Emirates and Singapore Airlines have all played their part.

There may be some light in this gloom now and Merrill's analyst Simon Mitchell is bullish in a way Qantas followers have not seen for some time.

"Increasingly positive yield trends, a restrained oil price and cost efficiencies make for a strong operating environment for Qantas. We have . . . upgraded our earnings per share estimates by 9-10 per cent for the next two years," he says.

Qantas' move was a big step forward in that it nailed down the strategy first enunciated two weeks ago with the launch of Jetstar International.

What the critics see as being "all things to all people" Qantas describes as building a bigger footprint with the maximum range of price options to help cope with the recent turmoil in the industry.

Competition from Emirates and Singapore shows no sign of letting up. Emirates, backed by the Dubai royal family, wants to double Australian services to 84 a week. Singapore Airlines is chafing at the bit to get permission to fly Qantas' lucrative Pacific route.

The route, which makes 15 per cent of Qantas' profit, is an issue particularly worrying for Geoff Dixon.

Not only is he fighting Singapore, he is faced with pressure from Virgin Blue, which does not need government permission to fly the route.

The pendulum appears to have swung against Singapore Airlines, with recent comments by John Howard and others being increasingly supportive of Qantas' position.

As a back-up position, Canberra will probably allow Virgin Blue onto the route. Virgin says it wants to run the service as a low-cost, two-class operation to the US in conjunction with Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic.

Qantas desperately wants to protect the Pacific and is talking loudly about bringing in Jetstar International, probably in a bid to frighten off Virgin. Discount fares on the route have floated up in recent times to more than $2000 (economy) return and Qantas will want to keep as much of that premium as possible rather than seeing it whittled away in competition with Virgin. Keeping the route totally in-house would achieve that. Jetstar is likely to cater for the price-conscious end of the market with a limited schedule between Sydney and Los Angeles and also flights into Vancouver in the skiing season.

Two statistics show how lucrative the Pacific is for Qantas. A return business class fare on the 14-hour Melbourne-Los Angeles route is currently around $11,000, while on the 22-hour kangaroo route to London it is $9500.

Qantas chief financial officer Peter Gregg says the 787 purchase deal, for 65 of the new aircraft (list price $13 billion, but after haggling likely to cost $9-$10 billion) cements Qantas' strategic direction and will help it climb back to the 40 per cent market share level.

"It will enable us to increase point-to-point services to an increased number of destinations and enable us to get into the fastest growing market, leisure travel."

By ordering the long-range Boeing 787 for both Qantas and Jetstar, the Qantas group is signalling a radical change in the way it structures international services.

Because the 787 can fly at the same speed as the 747 and, crucially, with the same unit cost per seat compared with the 747, despite carrying 100 fewer passengers, it can be unleashed competitively on any route Qantas chooses.

The coming of the smaller, long-range 787 also gives Qantas flexibility in separating passenger types. "In the past," says Gregg, "we tried to do leisure and premium services in one aircraft. We had the leisure passengers at the back and the premium flyers at the front (in first and business class)," he said.

"With the 787, we can have two planes."

Not only that, Qantas can now have two airlines. Mainline services can be run by Qantas while the leisure market can be served by Jetstar International when it takes off early in 2007.

This, analysts say, will give Qantas a huge advantage over its current situation. It means new routes to Asia-Pacific holiday destinations, like Vanuatu, Vietnam and Malaysia can be opened up. Existing Qantas three-class mainline services to destinations like Hawaii can be replaced with Jetstar's two-class service and Qantas can also re-enter the market it has been forced to withdraw from.

Surprising as it may seem, Qantas abandoned some of Europe's highest-profile ports in recent years because it could not make them pay with its traditional 747 service. When it pulled out of Rome and Paris, Qantas was carrying average passenger loads of more than 80 per cent, when 60 to 65 per cent is the normal break-even level. The problem was the breakdown of the passenger list. There were many tourists in economy class but not enough premium passengers in first and business class to make the jumbo service pay. Now, says Gregg, a two-class Jetstar International will be able to fly into those European ports and others, including Athens, from existing Qantas hubs in Bangkok and Singapore. Other European possibilities are Amsterdam, Madrid, Zurich, Copenhagen and Stockholm.

That, said one analyst, would give Qantas-Jetstar a whole market in Europe at a time when Emirates and Singapore were expanding into the region, taking advantage of their ability to run non-stop flights from their home bases.

Currently Qantas flies to just two European ports (London and Frankfurt), while Singapore goes to nine and Emirates 16.

The fanfare that greeted the Boeing deal this week obscured the fact that the first 787s will not arrive for Jetstar until 2008 and a year later for Qantas. The long range 787-9 model will not be flying until 2011.

CommSec analyst Matt Crowe is not carried away by the 787 decision. "It's good to upgrade the ageing fleet, but it is a huge investment to do it. In the airline industry you have to spend a lot of money just to stay competitive. The new planes will reduce costs and fares but other airlines will buy them and they won't result in substantially higher levels of profit."

It is now my Dream to fly the 787 for a living, I have been so impressed with the Airliner.

The only bad thing to come out of this is that it makes our Foreign Trade deficit look really bad. Every time theres a big order for plane the trade deficit blows out. Even though these are realistically a investment rather then a something like chinese clothing. The expansion of Qantas will only see things improve for Australia. More tourist, more investors and all the sort of good stuff that keeps the economy moving along

It is now my Dream to fly the 787 for a living, I have been so impressed with the Airliner.

Best way is through the air-force, if u can get accepted, i was going to join the af although i was later deterred by the 11 year contract, so i just did civil/mining eng.

P.

^^
Yeah thats very true, unless you're very rich. Costs a fortune for a APTL not to mention how hard it is to break into the airline industry & the amount of time it takes!!

Yeah, I'm still considering my options for life after school.

I don't know what all the fuss is about over the 787.

Okay, so it's quieter, more efficient, boasts a new interior, blah blah blah.

But given that its much publicised sharkfin-like tail and drop-style 'Comet' nose (err, which is pretty similar to the 757 that's still flying) has now been ditched/revised due to their deficiencies in aerodynamics, from the outside, the 787 won't stand out THAT much from all the other clone-like airliners as Boeing kept harping on that it would.

In the revised designs the nose and wings may still look a LITTLE different, but Boeing made such a big fuss about the uniquely-styled exterior.

Consequently, all the 'unusual looks' claptrap doesn't seem quite so relevant now.

It's still quite a bit different to look at compared to most of the airliners currently flying. I for one am really looking forward to seeing these birds in service. They look fantastic.

I don't know what all the fuss is about over the 787.

Okay, so it's quieter, more efficient, boasts a new interior, blah blah blah.

But given that its much publicised sharkfin-like tail and drop-style 'Comet' nose (err, which is pretty similar to the 757 that's still flying) has now been ditched/revised due to their deficiencies in aerodynamics, from the outside, the 787 won't stand out THAT much from all the other clone-like airliners as Boeing kept harping on that it would.

In the revised designs the nose and wings may still look a LITTLE different, but Boeing made such a big fuss about the uniquely-styled exterior.

Consequently, all the 'unusual looks' claptrap doesn't seem quite so relevant now.
The 787 looks almost identical to a 777-200 now. The latest 777-200LR will have a range similar, if not better than the 787 so the only thing 'new' in the 787 will be the new interior and some minor aerodynamic and effeciency improvements.

8 more A380s coming right up.

:banana:

+ 4 x A330-200s
& 5 x B737-800s

even.

20 A380's, that would make QF the 2nd biggest customer for the type behind EK. Not bad.

http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21586949-23349,00.html?from=public_rss


Boeing going great with 787 launch

* Boeing has already sold 500 787s, and orders are still flooding in, writes Steve Creedy
* April 20, 2007

THE most successful launch of an aircraft in commercial aviation history is continuing to add orders at a cracking pace and it may receive a further boost from Qantas.

The Boeing 787's order book reached the 500-order milestone earlier this month, and last week Boeing quietly added another 30 orders with a total list price of $US4.6 billion ($5.5 billion).

The new order, to an undisclosed customer, brings total orders for the next generation of fuel-efficient aircraft to 544 from about 50 customers.

The new customer - identified in reports only as a "non-US" airline - joins Qantas, All Nippon Airways and Japan Airlines as the 787's biggest customers.

Qantas has 45 firm orders and 20 options with purchase rights for an additional 50 aircraft.

The flying kangaroo is due to get 45 aircraft in 45 months, with the first - 787-8s capable of carrying up to 310 people - arriving next year for low-cost offshoot Jetstar International.

The bigger Boeing 787-9, due to arrive in 2011, will carry an additional 50 passengers and will see Jetstar International start services to the US west coast.

But Qantas is already looking at further orders.

With the US carriers yet to order replacements for their fleet of Boeing 767s, the flying kangaroo is keen to ensure it has a continuing supply. It may seek to lock up another 20 slots beyond the 65 already spoken for.

"We're certainly considering taking it to the next planning stage but we're doing the preliminary work on it now as to how, when, where and why," Qantas chief executive Peter Gregg said. "But clearly we have an intent to exercise more options - it's just a matter of when."
Boeing is assembling major components of the 787 at factories around the world, and has been installing the tools needed to put the pieces together at its giant facility in Everett, near the US coastal city of Seattle.

Unlike previous Boeing aircraft, for which most of the construction was done in Seattle, Boeing has farmed out major components of its new planes to companies around the world.

It is modifying four of its 747 jumbo jets into "Dreamlifters" designed to bring the components to Everett for final assembly.

The US plane maker expects final assembly to begin next month and to present its new baby to the world in early July.

While the program has not been without problems, Boeing says it remains on track to make its first delivery to ANA in May next year. It is targeting a first flight in late August before starting an intensive flight test program.

With about 50 per cent of the new plane made from composite materials, Boeing has understandably been running its biggest ever structural test program. So far, it has been pleased with the results.

"All of the developmental testing is essentially completed," program head Mike Bair said last month. "The testing that we are now doing is really a certification testing. And again, no real surprises in that big test program. That's gone very well. We've been very pleased with how all these composite structures have gone together in the test program." Mr Bair was also confident the manufacturer had "a pretty good handle" on weight problems and said initial results from a program to optimise components was expected to yield a significant reduction.

By last month, it had weighed about a quarter of the plane and the results were a little lower than anticipated.

"The parts are lighter than we had estimated," Mr Bair said "Now, being a conservative lot, we're not willing to call that a trend yet. But it's better than having the other thing happen to you."

Another big challenge facing any new aircraft is systems integration. But that process is well under way and had not produced any surprises, according to the last update.

But, as Mr Bair noted, this is one area where surprises are always around the corner.

Several problems have arisen in the manufacturer's network of global suppliers. Boeing has had a team of engineers roaming the world, attempting to address issues as they arise, and some have proven unusual, to say the least.

Italian manufacturer Alenia Aeronautica, for example, decided to situate its factory on a grove of 300-year-old olive trees and was forced to delay construction of the facility while it transplanted the trees.

Other heartaches stem from issues such as the aircraft's 96.5km of wiring and a worldwide shortage of fasteners.

"The fastener industry is stretched tighter than a rubber band because every airplane program is at their peak rate or headed toward their peak rate," Mr Bair said. "So, you know, we're feeding the production system hand to mouth with both, but again, it's not something that we haven't seen in the past. It's just something you have to manage your way through."

Boeing does not expect these to be the last of the issues it will face as the plane is assembled and undergoes flight testing but believes it has the resources to deal with unanticipated problems.

"It's always some unique thing or something about the design or something that doesn't work out exactly the way you anticipate," he said. "And you have to run down what the issue is and then figure out a way to fix it. And obviously we've had a great track record of doing that. We know how to do that and we anticipated a similar exercise on this program."

The US plane maker plans to deliver 112 aircraft in the first two years and is looking at production rates in subsequent years.

One of the major factors likely to affect that will be the rates of production it can expect from the factories making the various components. The demand has been so great that the company is now talking about delivery positions in 2014-15, and it says the frenzy is showing no signs of slowing down.

According to Mr Bair, the real issue in increasing production rates is the major structural partners, because that is where most of the tooling for the plane is done. And as the production method is so new, Boeing is yet to get a handle on how the equipment works in terms of capability and yield.

But Mr Bair said the news so far was better than expected.

"We are carefully monitoring that as we build these first airplane units, in order to be better educated when we do make decisions about rate," he said. However, the delays shed a new light on the five-year lead the 787 has on the Airbus A350.

Under Boeing's current schedule, a new customer would have to wait until the second half of 2013 to get a new plane. This is likely to be about the same time a customer could get his hands on an A350.

There is also some industry conjecture about what Boeing is going to do with its proposed 787-10, compared to Airbus's objectives for its A350-1000. Airbus is hoping to pitch the A350-1000 against Boeing's popular 777 line, whereas Boeing would like to minimise the overlap between 787s and 777s to keep some versions of the latter going. This could bring the A350 back into the picture for airlines such as Qantas as they move to replace bigger widebody jets such as the 747-400.

I could see this coming. It's good to see Qantas really getting serious about competition and hopefully this will open up new routes.

I just hope JQ don't do a MEL/SYD-LAX when they get their 787s. I can see that route becoming really crammed with a lot of empty seats otherwise. Perhaps a MEL/SYD-SEA or LAS service.

I could see this coming. It's good to see Qantas really getting serious about competition and hopefully this will open up new routes.

I just hope JQ don't do a MEL/SYD-LAX when they get their 787s. I can see that route becoming really crammed with a lot of empty seats otherwise. Perhaps a MEL/SYD-SEA or LAS service.

*Shakes head*.. :bash: :ohno:

Of course JQ will not operate Aust-LAX. Its the same reason why they dont fly on the domestic trunk routes, QF doesnt want to cannabalise each other. Aust-LAX is a premium market, and that is better left to QF mainline.

BNE & AKL may be candidates for LAX services to be replaced by JQ, but strong business traffic in both ports may likely see QF retain BNE/AKL-LAX flights as 2-class 744s.

^^ australia - las vegas sounds good :D

The 787 looks almost identical to a 777-200 now. The latest 777-200LR will have a range similar, if not better than the 787 so the only thing 'new' in the 787 will be the new interior and some minor aerodynamic and effeciency improvements.

That and the fact that it is the first fully composite commercial aircraft. Which is completely revolutionary.