Calgary, city on the rise? [Archive]

Boris550

December 9th, 2005, 07:53 AM

I agree, and you can do that with refugees {Winnipeg has been very successful} but people move to where they want to. That means Tor/Mon/Van.
They move to areas with a large number of people who are in their ethnic group.

This may also be painful for Albertans to hear BUT.................. very few people move to Alberta because they want to but rather they have to. To go to university, a job transfer, a summer job, high wages, low unemployment but not because they really
"want" to.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody ever say they want to move to Alberta for anything but work or university.

People move to Van/Tor/Mon for the big city and bright lights.

Big 3... :blahblah:

As rise_against pointed out, this is NOT an issue anymore. In fact my neighbours moved here from Toronto about 3 months ago. This is besides the fact that I talk to people all the time who have moved here from Ontario because they LIKE IT MORE. My University classes are filled with people whose families moved from Vancouver, Halifax, etc. Very few people I have talked to moved here primarily because of work. All the adults I have talked to who moved here from the ROC have cited that they love Calgary's vibrancy and growth, as well as the wide range of activities the city offers for families.

As for the immigrants, Calgary gets only small share now, but different ethnic groups have been established for a while here and I would expect the number of immigrants to starting growing more rapidly at some point.

Scumtoes: You Edmontonians have been rather friendly as of late, good on you! :)

furrycanuck

December 9th, 2005, 04:38 PM

CALGARY GETS MORE IMMIGRANTS PER CAPITA THAN DOES MONTREAL!

Would you guys stop spreading this ridiculous myth that Calgary only gets migrants from within Canada?

Calgary currently takes in between 9,000 and 11,000 immigrants per year- about 2/3 of the total for Alberta- and this is PER CAPITA the fourth highest rate of immigration among all Canadian CMAs, after Toronto, Vancouver, and Abbotsford. MONTREAL IS FAR DOWN ON THAT LIST. It is only included in the "big three" because it is a the second largest CMA. It has not done a good job of attracting immigrants for many years- and the rest of Quebec is even worse.

furrycanuck

December 9th, 2005, 04:45 PM

Put another way- Calgary comprises about 3% of the nation's population but takes in 4% of the nation's immigrants. It is thus one of a tiny number of cities in Canada that receives MORE THAN ITS SHARE of immigrants.

Calgary also is THIRD in the proportion of visible minorities in Canada- Montreal is SEVENTH.

oceanmdx

December 9th, 2005, 04:58 PM

^^ I agree with your points, however, Calgary gets less than half it's population increase from immigration. Whereas, Toronto gets the great bulk of its population increases from immigration. Calgary may be third, but it is a very distant third from Toronto and Vancouver. Anyone from Toronto or Van. would smile at anyone claiming that Calgary gets more than its share of immigrants.

I didn't realize that Mtl was that low on the list.

furrycanuck

December 9th, 2005, 05:06 PM

If calgary did not get so much internal migration and natural increase, its international migration "effect" would be larger. You're penalizing Calgary for high rates of internal migration and natural increase.

You would not believe how much Calgary eclipses many major US centres for international immigration rates- it's higher than Chicago, Philly, Seattle, Portland, Dallas, Atlanta... not to mention Ottawa, Montreal, Edmonton, Winnipeg...

oceanmdx

December 9th, 2005, 05:24 PM

^^ That's why I think Calgary will look more like T.O. or Van. over time than just another Denver. Calgary will gradually attract even more immigrants as a percentage of its pop. increase with the passage of time.

There is a snowball effect associated with immigration. Once a number of groups get established they attract even more people from those groups.

shreddog

December 9th, 2005, 05:48 PM

I don't think I've ever heard anybody ever say they want to move to Alberta for anything but work or university.
Ssiguy2 - may I introduce you to ... Me.

Twice I have moved to Calgary simply because I wanted to. In the mid 90's I purposely gave up a great career and awesome house in Ottawa simply becuase my wife and I wanted to move to Calgary. We could have moved to any of the big cities in Canada, and had previously lived in Tor, Mtl and Ott, however we purposely choose Calgary because it offered the lifestyle that we wanted - mtns, blue skies, good weather, vibrant city life - and which we felt we could not find anywhere else.

We then moved on to Southern California and lived right on the beach. Sunsets every night to the sounds of the waves. After a couple years we found that not only we missed Canada, but Calgary specifically. When we decided to move back, we again looked at all the major cities and surprise, surprise, we willingly choose Calgary again.

Technically, we choose Calgary 3 more times, since we have also passed on great career transfers to Ottawa, Toronto and recently Australia.

One more thing, both my wife's and mine families are mainly based in Ott/Tor/Mtl so it certainly ain't the family keeping us here. Wait a minute, maybe that's why we don't want to move back! Hmmmm.

Gorgon

December 9th, 2005, 05:57 PM

It's funny you (people) mention immigration. Here in Winnipeg, I've seen a good number of people, mostly immigrants or new Canadians, who after a while move to Alberta. Many of those do so to Calgary. BTW Calgary's growth rate makes it a pretty exciting city, IMO. Isn't Calgary supposed to be as big as New York? I mean it seems to be so spread...
Ps. Calgary being as big as NewYork in terms of size, not population, eh?

furrycanuck

December 9th, 2005, 06:16 PM

^Calgary has about the same geographic area as new york city, yes, but using that as a standard of density is excessive and one that no city in North America can match.

Calgary is about in the middle of the pack in North America with respect to density.

furrycanuck

December 9th, 2005, 06:23 PM

I chose Calgary for work with great trepidation- I'm half of a same-sex couple (an interracial one to boot) and am in every respect a small-l liberal. We moved from Toronto (a city I had emigrated to in 1997 and one that I still love- and never intended to leave), and for the record partner and I are both immigrants.

Our friends were mortified and expected us to come running back soon.

Now it's been almost six years and we adore the city. We've eked out an inner-city lifestyle in Bankview very similar to what we had in Toronto in Seaton Village (that's the area west of the Annex); we're surrounded by artists, social workers, one famous playwrite, architects, we have a liberal MLA, we are legally married, we're mmaking more contributions to what we care about in this community than the old boys club in Toronto would ever allow us to.... life is good.

So while we moved with a LOT of fear about going to what our neighbour in TO called "the belly of the beast," and yes for work, we would do it over again voluntarily.

oceanmdx

December 9th, 2005, 06:51 PM

^^ The rumors suggesting that Calgary is some sort of redneck heaven were greatly exaggerated wouldn't you say?

shreddog

December 9th, 2005, 06:58 PM

There is yet another dimension to Calgary that is significantly overlooked – namely it’s Franco-Canadien community. While Edmonton/St. Albert has the reputation of being the heart of Alberta’s French culture, the truth is that there really is no difference between the two. Membership in the Franco-Alberta association is evenly spilt between the two metros as are education and cultural facilities.

My wife is heavily involved in the Franco-Alberta school board and we are quite immersed with what is happening in that sub-culture. 10 years ago, there was way more up north, but nowadays, it’s pretty much a wash.

It is interesting to note that my son not only attends a Franco school, but since many of his friends are French-speaking ends up “living” in the French language for most of his day. He even has his “French” stores here in Calgary where he knows he can speak to the clerks in French. The biggest kick is when we make our annual trek to the family cottage in the wilds of Quebec and the kid from Alberta not only speaks French as well as his cousins, but even ends up teaching them some Quebecois folk songs!

While it will never rival Ottawa, Montreal or even Sudbury for bilingualism, the ever growing French side of Calgary is yet another plus in its transition into a great burg!!

walli

December 9th, 2005, 07:14 PM

^^ furrycanuck - I'm a minority in Calgary, and also a "small-l liberal". I think there are areas in the city that ARE red neck. You came from T.O. and thus could directly move into the area that suited you. When those who arrive can't pick and choose, they need to "graduate" from some of the red neck areas. Trust me - we used to be in the Forest Lawn / Pembrook area years ago and it wasn't fun. The minorities generally stayed there for around five years, but the red nacks seemed like they had been there for generations [I actually felt sorry for them]. Anyway - life was not fun I'll tell you ... but then we moved on and are very happy and reasonably successful. Once in a while I drive back into Pembrook to see where we lived - broken fences, rusted backyard car art, and back alleys that you can barely get through because of the broken sofas and mattress springs. Beyond that it was fear that some guy would attack my dad or the neighbours kid would climb on to the window sill of a second floor window.

With respect to red necks in the city's core ...
Hmmm ... how many females are executives in the energy industry? Ever been to the petroleum club? How many are advocates for a good environment? Most are all for trading air for oil sands profits! We need to articulate what a Red Neck is ... I'd suggest it is someone who is selfish and unsympathetic to others / other regions.

NOTE - city just conducted a clean-up job in Forest Lawn.
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-107620.html

oceanmdx

December 9th, 2005, 07:24 PM

^^... but all large cities have their good and bad places. Is Calgary any worse than say Toronto in this regard?

scumtoes

December 9th, 2005, 09:59 PM

i actually think the heart of metro edmonton's french community is the bonnie doon area. home the of the u of a's faculté faint-jean and the french cultural community centre.

canada cowboy

December 10th, 2005, 12:21 AM

^^... but all large cities have their good and bad places. Is Calgary any worse than say Toronto in this regard?

Jane and Finch.

The NE has some "rouger" neighbourhoods, but still not nearly as bad as a number of others in Canada.

josh white

December 10th, 2005, 12:23 AM

canada cowboy

December 10th, 2005, 12:29 AM

I agree, and you can do that with refugees {Winnipeg has been very successful} but people move to where they want to. That means Tor/Mon/Van.
They move to areas with a large number of people who are in their ethnic group.

This may also be painful for Albertans to hear BUT.................. very few people move to Alberta because they want to but rather they have to. To go to university, a job transfer, a summer job, high wages, low unemployment but not because they really
"want" to.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody ever say they want to move to Alberta for anything but work or university.

People move to Van/Tor/Mon for the big city and bright lights.

I moved to AB for it lifestyle, the mountains, and the climate. I've tried other places in Canada, and Southern AB is my favourite.

I also like Calgary because it seems to have a nice balance between some big city-feel, and still a small (re: easy to get around) city. I also find the growth exciting to watch.

I still find it funny that some group a "big 3" in Canada...yes, they are the biggest three cities, but Vancouver is no where near the size of TO (and the golden horseshoe). Calgary is "half" the size of Vancouver, which in real numbers means 1 million behind...but Vancouver isn't even half the size of greater TO. Regardless, I like all the Canadian cities - and am very glad they're different.

BTW - Calgary also has going for it a climbing ranking on the Mercer's and EIU's best places to live (in fact, Calgary is only one position behind TO now on the EIU's list).

walli

December 10th, 2005, 12:34 AM

It sure is more affordable than T.O. and Vancouver. Good for young couples ... can afford a house earier [though Edmonton is even better for that, and then there is Winnipeg where they beg you to take to houses].

Bertez

December 10th, 2005, 03:24 AM

Just wondering,what rate is Calgary's population growing......(In numbers numbers not percentages please;))

furrycanuck

December 10th, 2005, 03:49 AM

^it varies from year to year, but count on about 20,000 per year in the city, maybe 25,000 for the CMA.

Currently, Calgary has about 960,000 and the Calgary CMA is about 1.1 million.

ssiguy2

December 10th, 2005, 04:20 AM

Let me clarify something, I like Calgary.
Its a pleasant city with a low crime rate compared to the rest of Western Canada. It is an EXTREMLY clean city, rated the cleanist in the world of 300 cities measured.
Ya, its a tad red-neck but I don't find overwhelmingly so. I find its Albertans outside of Ed/Cal that are real hicks but rather rural Alberta.

I'm glad some have moved to Alberta for the lifestlye but it doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority of people move there due to work/university. It is still a place people move to to get work and if it wasn't for the booming economy would not even think of moving there.

Bertez

December 10th, 2005, 05:13 AM

^it varies from year to year, but count on about 20,000 per year in the city, maybe 25,000 for the CMA.

Currently, Calgary has about 960,000 and the Calgary CMA is about 1.1 million.

Thanks for the info....BTW, Calgary is great:D:D

oceanmdx

December 10th, 2005, 05:13 AM

^^ The overwhelming majority move anywhere for work/university. Whether a place is booming or not is irrelevant (pros and cons), who cares if you are able to get a job somewhere more desirable? Calgary isn't the only city in Canada that is booming or where people can find a job. People aren't forced to move there for a job. Most go to Calgary because they want to live there.

This shows Calgary's population growth:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo05c.htm

Superman

December 10th, 2005, 12:19 PM

In regard to racism and general tolerance in Calgary. I think the average middle class suburb in Calgary, or pretty much all areas of Calgary are very, very racially and ethnically tolerant. Having talked to friends on the topic who are minorities, who either grew up in Calgary or were recent immigrants suggested that they face very little or no racial hatred, and in fact feel very comfortable and welcome.

I agree, its really tolerant city, and that redneck myth is old, its a city like the thread says "on the rise"

I also like Calgary because it seems to have a nice balance between some big city-feel, and still a small (re: easy to get around) city. I also find the growth exciting to watch.

It would be nice living in that city while that new office tower gets built, the Encana, it would be exciting watching the progress.

I still find it funny that some group a "big 3" in Canada...yes, they are the biggest three cities, but Vancouver is no where near the size of TO (and the golden horseshoe). Calgary is "half" the size of Vancouver, which in real numbers means 1 million behind...but Vancouver isn't even half the size of greater TO. Regardless, I like all the Canadian cities - and am very glad they're different.

BTW - Calgary also has going for it a climbing ranking on the Mercer's and EIU's best places to live (in fact, Calgary is only one position behind TO now on the EIU's list).

Sure it is, GTA 5.5, Lower Mainland 2.5; difference slightly higher than half, but none the less you see my point. I think you did some miscalculations. Calgary is one million behind Van CMA, not Lower Mainland, and gap is going to get larger. Not taking anything away from Calgary still, i would live there anytime.

canada cowboy

December 10th, 2005, 07:49 PM

Sure it is, GTA 5.5, Lower Mainland 2.5; difference slightly higher than half, but none the less you see my point. I think you did some miscalculations. Calgary is one million behind Van CMA, not Lower Mainland, and gap is going to get larger. Not taking anything away from Calgary still, i would live there anytime.

Well, you're comparing the entire lower mainland region to just the GTA - the question really is, where do you stop? The urban areas of the golden horseshoe goes well beyond the GTA borders - and if you count that you're looking at 7-8 million people...heck, you could easily stretch the city to Hamilton if you wanted. Besides, stretch it out enough, and you "could" count more people in the corridor as well - which has nearly 500,000 itself. But, for the purposes of numbers, stick to the CMAs: Toronto 5.2 million, Vancouver 2.1 million, and Calgary just over a million (2004 numbers).

All I'm saying is a grouping of the "big 3" is irrelevant. Why not the big "4", or the big "6"? Someone is arbitrarily stopping at a population of 2 million??? Just 25 years ago, Vancouver was only 1.25 million people as well - and it is only growing by the same real numbers as Calgary (about 20,000 a year) versus GTA growing at 80-100,000 a year. If Calgary drops to a 1.6% growth rate, it'll still hit nearly 1.5 million in the next 20 years - and I'm sure Edmonton wouldn't be too far behind, along with continued growth in the corridor.

In terms of size (and I'm only referring to size for this discussion), Vancouver is not in the same league as a city the size of TO - or even Montreal for that matter, if Calgary is not in the same "group" as Vancouver when discussing Canada's "big" cities (or Ottawa and Edmonton for that matter). At the same time, I'm not disputing that Van feels for the most part a larger city than Calgary - it does.

canada cowboy

December 10th, 2005, 07:51 PM

cmd uw

December 10th, 2005, 08:36 PM

All I'm saying is a grouping of the "big 3" is irrelevant. Why not the big "4", or the big "6"? Someone is arbitrarily stopping at a population of 2 million??? Just 25 years ago, Vancouver was only 1.25 million people as well - and it is only growing by the same real numbers as Calgary (about 20,000 a year) versus GTA growing at 80-100,000 a year. If Calgary drops to a 1.6% growth rate, it'll still hit nearly 1.5 million in the next 20 years - and I'm sure Edmonton wouldn't be too far behind, along with continued growth in the corridor.
The reason why everyone uses the 'Big 3' is that they are our cities that are well-known internationally. The others such as Calgary, Ottawa, Edmonton, etc. are not as well known worldwide.

ryanE

December 10th, 2005, 09:22 PM

/\ Agreed. As good of cities as Edmonton and Calgary are, it is a big drop from TO/Mon/Van as far as worldly known cities and such.

Boris550

December 10th, 2005, 09:25 PM

I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE the entire big 3 concept! I don't even know if I can even express my hatred properly. :tongue:

It's like a deliberate attempt to totally dismiss all the smaller, but still major, cities in this country

canada cowboy

December 10th, 2005, 10:05 PM

/\ Agreed. As good of cities as Edmonton and Calgary are, it is a big drop from TO/Mon/Van as far as worldly known cities and such.

Yeah - I've heard that argument before, but not sure if I'm buying...any stats to back that up??? I work with quite a few people across North America and Europe, and they know perfectly well what Calgary is. I have equally come across people that have "heard of" Vancouver, but not really sure about it. However, you'd be hard-pressed to not find someone that isn't familiar with Toronto.

Regardless - I don't think there is much it terms of evidence to back up that reasoning.

rt_0891

December 10th, 2005, 10:37 PM

From the China/HK perspective, I would tend to agree that there' quite a big dropoff after Van/TO/Mtl. Actually, it's more like Van, TO.. Mtl..... Calgary.

I have a friend who's working at a travel agency in HK right now (Hong Thai Travel Services), and the majority of the tours they offer right now focuses on two prime destinations: Vancouver and Toronto. Calgary is included as a sidetrip for any Vancouver-Banff tours.

For mainstream society, Calgary itself does not really ring a bell. However, link Banff Rockies-Calgary together, and many in HK/Mainland will have a vague idea of what Calgary is.

In financial circles, it's a completely different story. I've worked part-time for a US multi in HK before, and most people there know clearly what Calgary is.

Given the influx of Chinese moving to Calgary, and China's interest in Alberta's oil, all this could change though.

ryanE

December 11th, 2005, 10:27 AM

Yeah - I've heard that argument before, but not sure if I'm buying...any stats to back that up??? I work with quite a few people across North America and Europe, and they know perfectly well what Calgary is. I have equally come across people that have "heard of" Vancouver, but not really sure about it. However, you'd be hard-pressed to not find someone that isn't familiar with Toronto.

Regardless - I don't think there is much it terms of evidence to back up that reasoning.

Stats? Do they even make stats for this type of thing??

First off Edmonton and Calgary are excellent cities - so don't think Im trying to put them down. They have much to offer and I really do not think there are many cities in North America with a million people (or even more) that can match the quality of life you find in Alberta's big two. But they are definetly not internationally known cities to the extent ofToronto, Montreal and to a lesser extent Vancouver - we are small fish in a very big pond.

I have lived and worked in both Asia and Europe, and yes you will find many people who have heard of Edmonton and Calgary, but I'd say there are many more that havent.

From a business perspective obviously you will find more people who have heard of them, but it really depends on what business your talking about. A Malaysian working for an American oil company in Kuala Lumpur will definetly know about Calgary, but chances are a lawyer in Brussels hasnt.

Ask yourself this: what could the avg North American tell you about Valencia? Zaragoza? Liege? Chiang Mai? The Hague? All great cities, all quite important in their respective countries, all not particularly well known globally.

Once again I want to reenforce that Edmonton and Calgary are two of my favorite cities, and I am by no means suggesting they have no international presence at all. But I dont think one can honestly suggest that they are as widely known as Toronto or Montreal or even Vancouver.

As far as naming them the big three, I really don't think its slam against any other city at all - as they are quite clearly the big three in this country.

ryanE

December 11th, 2005, 10:40 AM

Just for fun...

Of those cities I listed:

- 1 is home to a world famous architect, and the very popular America's Cup circuit
- 1 is home to the 2nd largest oil company in the world and the Dutch parliment
- 1 one is one of the most important industrial cities in its country
- 1 is the 5th largest city in a country much bigger then Canada
- and one is the most important business, industrial and cultural centre in the northern half of its country.

Ill let you guys guess which is which :)

Superman

December 11th, 2005, 12:59 PM

Well, you're comparing the entire lower mainland region to just the GTA - the question really is, where do you stop? The urban areas of the golden horseshoe goes well beyond the GTA borders - and if you count that you're looking at 7-8 million people...heck, you could easily stretch the city to Hamilton if you wanted. Besides, stretch it out enough, and you "could" count more people in the corridor as well - which has nearly 500,000 itself. But, for the purposes of numbers, stick to the CMAs: Toronto 5.2 million, Vancouver 2.1 million, and Calgary just over a million (2004 numbers).

All I'm saying is a grouping of the "big 3" is irrelevant. Why not the big "4", or the big "6"? Someone is arbitrarily stopping at a population of 2 million??? Just 25 years ago, Vancouver was only 1.25 million people as well - and it is only growing by the same real numbers as Calgary (about 20,000 a year) versus GTA growing at 80-100,000 a year. If Calgary drops to a 1.6% growth rate, it'll still hit nearly 1.5 million in the next 20 years - and I'm sure Edmonton wouldn't be too far behind, along with continued growth in the corridor.

In terms of size (and I'm only referring to size for this discussion), Vancouver is not in the same league as a city the size of TO - or even Montreal for that matter, if Calgary is not in the same "group" as Vancouver when discussing Canada's "big" cities (or Ottawa and Edmonton for that matter). At the same time, I'm not disputing that Van feels for the most part a larger city than Calgary - it does.

All countries have different size cities, i doubt you can find a country where the populations of all cities are the same, one has to be the biggest and so forth. New York, Los Angelas, Chicago, are they the same size? There a sizable difference between them, who cares, you brought that side of the arguement up, and same goe's for other countries. The reason people always refer to the big 3, is because they are actual big cities, that have the most influence. Tourism, the major big events are held in the three, like you said when you step foot in either of those three, its special, they are far and away far more aware internationally. On the international awareness side, not to knock Montreal because its a special city, but i find its sometimes there because it is the second largest city in Canada, i find more people know Vancouver or Toronto. None the less Vancouver is growing by 30 000 people a year, 120 000 over four years, while Calgary is growing at 20 000 a year, with 80 000 people over four years, and thats never going to change, Vancouver will always attract more immigrants, and once the flood gates open for more immigrants, more will come and the gap will get bigger like i said before.

With all that said, i love Calgary, i could never bash it like some others do, and it has one hell of a future its going to have one of the best skylines in North America once everything is done, a vibrant downtown, and have lots of money and is clearly alone in the number four spot in my opinion.

canada cowboy

December 11th, 2005, 09:53 PM

Tourism, the major big events are held in the three, like you said when you step foot in either of those three, its special, they are far and away far more aware internationally. On the international awareness side, not to knock Montreal because its a special city, but i find its sometimes there because it is the second largest city in Canada, i find more people know Vancouver or Toronto. None the less Vancouver is growing by 30 000 people a year, 120 000 over four years, while Calgary is growing at 20 000 a year, with 80 000 people over four years, and thats never going to change, Vancouver will always attract more immigrants, and once the flood gates open for more immigrants, more will come and the gap will get bigger like i said before.

Sorry, but I'm not buying your arguments...step into Vancouver, and it doesn't feel anywhere close to the "big city" feel of TO (or Montreal). Internationally? We've already had the Olympics - we also host the largest city-wide 10 day party in the country (Stampede), and have seen "international" conferences such as the G7 Summit, World Oil Conferences, etc. We also host one of the largest Equestrian events (the Round Table event as well - bringing top CEOs during the Masters) in the world - which is well represented from Europe, South America, and of course North America...how much more "international" does it get???

Besides - my point about always being the "big 3", Vancouver was not much bigger 20 years ago compared to Calgary now....so what's your criteria?

Also, according to Statcan, Greater Van only grew by 20,000 between 2003-04, where Calgary grew 19,000. Vancouver will continue to attract those from Asia over the next couple decades, but as prices continue to go up, I doubt it will always be that way.

rt_0891

December 12th, 2005, 12:20 AM

Internationally? We've already had the Olympics - we also host the largest city-

However, fact is,most people have no clue who hosted previous Winter Olympic games. Nagano? Lillehammer? Albertville? How many people, especially those who live in tropical/sub-tropical countries will recognize these cities & remember them as host cities?

Even in Vancouver, the public consensus is that EXPO86' has done more to publicize the city than the Winter Olympics ever will.

wide 10 day party in the country (Stampede), and have seen "international" conferences such as the G7 Summit, World Oil Conferences, etc. We also host one of the largest Equestrian events (the Round Table event as well - bringing top CEOs during the Masters) in the world - which is well represented from Europe, South America, and of course North America...how much more "international" does it get???

Fact is, these events have limited popular appeal, and even in events like the World Oil Conference, the media either mentions Calgary sparingly, or they choose instead to focus on Banff-Kananaskis, an area of Calgary that actually appeals to outsiders. To many (especially those who think that Vancouver feels like an oversized village), Calgary still feels like a small town, and that's not particulary appealing, especially those who are used to the hustle-bustle elsewhere.

Rhino

December 12th, 2005, 12:37 AM

saying that Vancouver doesnt have a Big city feel ( when your down town ) is like an Mexican saying Africa isnt that hot. Its all relevent and reguardless of what anyone says , it does feel big and yes so does Calgary too .
compared to T.O. maybe not but Montreal I think Van is on Par.

and as far as a Big Party : Merritt Mountian Music Fest. HUGE! but town is like 10,000 people so that doesnt mean squat.

" The Merritt Mountain Music Festival once again lives up to the honor of Country Music Capital of Canada as it wraps up six days and nights of hot summer festivities, an outstanding line-up of entertainment and an estimated crowd of 128,000. " thats a big Party

Thats like 12 -1 odds for a party ( 12 out of towners for every local )

cmd uw

December 12th, 2005, 12:40 AM

Rhino

December 12th, 2005, 12:46 AM

for some reason I was trying to make the point that throwing a huge party wont make your city international , but I guess I proved my self wrong . :drunk:

ryanE

December 12th, 2005, 01:22 AM

Sorry, but I'm not buying your arguments...step into Vancouver, and it doesn't feel anywhere close to the "big city" feel of TO (or Montreal). Internationally? We've already had the Olympics - we also host the largest city-wide 10 day party in the country (Stampede), and have seen "international" conferences such as the G7 Summit, World Oil Conferences, etc. We also host one of the largest Equestrian events (the Round Table event as well - bringing top CEOs during the Masters) in the world - which is well represented from Europe, South America, and of course North America...how much more "international" does it get???

Besides - my point about always being the "big 3", Vancouver was not much bigger 20 years ago compared to Calgary now....so what's your criteria?

Edmonton has hosted more international events then Calgary in the past decade, yet the majority of people in this world still have no clue about Edmington...I mean Edmonton ;)

I think we need to go over this one more time: Do Calgary and Edmonton punch consideribly higher economically and globally then most cities in North America of a million people? Absolutely yes. Do they both host their fair share of international conferences, events, etc? Yes absolutely - but so do many other cities. Are they well known world wide as say, Toronto? NO NO NO!

To put it in a little more perspective, I would bet that a good majority of American citizens do not know a thing about Alberta - short of the ones who watch hockey. Hell, people in our own country think that Edmonton and Calgary are a couple backwater hick towns with igloos and cowboys hats.

Anyways..maybe that last paragraphy over generalizes a little, but the bottom line is leave the country and start asking people if they have heard of Calgary. I think you will be dissapointed with the majority of responses.

canada cowboy

December 12th, 2005, 02:42 AM

Edmonton has hosted more international events then Calgary in the past decade, yet the majority of people in this world still have no clue about Edmington...I mean Edmonton ;)
Anyways..maybe that last paragraphy over generalizes a little, but the bottom line is leave the country and start asking people if they have heard of Calgary. I think you will be dissapointed with the majority of responses.

Well - I disagree with your comments about Edmonton hosting more international events - list'em. I already listed a few in Calgary. And I fully agree about TO - my point was about Vancouver...and please list the Vancouver "international" events, or exposure that it receives right now (???) ...though, I do recognize it is generally well-known as a nice city (for good reason).

I do travel a lot, and deal with quite a few people internationally - maybe Calgary is best known for the Rockies and Banff, maybe for energy and oil, or maybe because of the Stampede...the point is, it is known, and I still haven't encountered someone in Europe that doesn't know of it. Most important though - as the title of this thread suggests - Calgary is quickly becoming more recognized.

canada cowboy

December 12th, 2005, 03:32 AM

To put it in a little more perspective, I would bet that a good majority of American citizens do not know a thing about Alberta - short of the ones who watch hockey. Hell, people in our own country think that Edmonton and Calgary are a couple backwater hick towns with igloos and cowboys hats.

In the US, Calgary is definitely well-known - and I know this well through a lot of travelling for business.

backwater hick towns? Yes, ironically the worst critics I've come across for other Canadian cities are here in Canada. TOers that don't like Calgary or Vancouver, Vancouverites that can't handle a little cold in winter, etc...but only the uneducated would think of them as "backwater hick" towns. Americans are actually quite impressed with Canadian cities (including some folks from Texas and Cali that I worked with in Winnipeg - likely the city that gets knocked the most in our country). Knowing this through experience, it doesn't surprise me in the least that Canadians on these forums have the same opinions.

Anyhow - I'm very proud to say I'm Calgarian (which I know is obvious :) ), and have been since moving here...and I actually think the "cowboy" hat image is a good one for Calgary to hold on to, as that's its heritage (and ABs). If someone wants to think less of Calgary because of it, that's there problem.

ryanE

December 12th, 2005, 03:45 AM

Sounds like your trying to turn this into an Edm vs. Cal pissing match, so please lets not go there...

-2005 World Half Marathon Championship (broadcast internationally)
-2005 World Masters Games (22,000 atheletes from across the globe)
-2001 World Track and Field Championships (More countries and more tv coverage then the Calgary Olympics I might add)
- Several ITU World Triathalon Championships and circuit stops since 2001
-FIFA U19 Womens World Cup

- The Annual Churchill Cup World Rugby Tournament
- THe Edmonton Grand Prix/Champ Race - signed and sealed until 2010
- Edmonton is a major annual stop in the ITU World Triathalon
- Edmonton is a stop on the World Strongman competition

- LPGA Canadian Open 2007
- WOrld Half Marathon Championships 2006, 2007
- Canada will play host to the majority of games including the Final and semi final of the FIFA Mens U19 World Cup in Canada
- World Curling Championships (2007 or 08 I think)

anyways these are off the top of my head and I know I am missing a few. This is also besides the smaller, less known events such as 2006 Handball worlds etc..and these are all in the last 5 years. I suppose I should have added Commonwealth Games, University Games, World Figure Skating

These are however all sports, Edmonton obviously has its share of well known festivals such as The Fringe, International Street Performers, etc etc etc... and there is no point even listing conferences because most international conferneces taking place in Edm or Cal go by without much notice.

ryanE

December 12th, 2005, 03:49 AM

And once again I dont disagree that Calgary isnt known by some people internationally, and that it is definetly on the rise. But you are foolish to think that Calgary is anywhere near as important or well known on an international level as Toronto or Montreal, and yes! even Vancouver.

Im glad to see you have travelled, but I know for a fact their are many upon many of Europeans, Asians, Africans...who have never, ever heard of Calgary. Sorry to dissapoint you :(

josh white

December 12th, 2005, 04:40 AM

Who cares how well it is known. Sure recognition will attract a few more immigrants, but Calgary gets as much growth as it can handle with current levels, plus the massive in-migration gets from the rest of Canada. As far as Calgary as a city on the rise - all the right things are happening right now that will propel Calgary into being a better, more cosmopolitan city in the future. What it achieves will speak for itself on the world stage. But recognition should not be the primary concern - doing things and being active in trying to make Calgary better is what is important.

ssiguy2

December 12th, 2005, 04:41 AM

canada cowboy

December 12th, 2005, 05:01 AM

Sounds like your trying to turn this into an Edm vs. Cal pissing match, so please lets not go there...

-2005 World Half Marathon Championship (broadcast internationally)
.
.

...most international conferneces taking place in Edm or Cal go by without much notice.

No, not trying to - those just seem to naturally happen on the SSC. I lived in Edm, and liked it - and I will return next year for the second WEM Grand Prix (which, BTW - as exciting as it is - Champcar barely gets notice in the US never mind internationally).

Yeah - I expected the events you listed, that's exactly what I thought...but these are not unique to Edm, and most are one-year, or just simply few year events...they don't define Edmonton.

The Fringe is a great event (and is the largest), but is still not a reason many folks "internationally" will travel to Edmonton. The Calgary Stampede is...and it is not going anywhere else. Same with the Spruce Meadows Masters - which attracts close to 80,000 fans (from around the world) on the last day in Sept.

As far as international events - the G7 and World Oil Conference do get noticed...that's hard to debate against.

Anyhow...back on track, this was about Calgary on the rise (which admittedly, I turned into wondering why do some SSCers talk about the "big 3")...and I think there is no doubt that it is.

canada cowboy

December 12th, 2005, 05:08 AM

...Calgary is anywhere near as important or well known on an international level as Toronto or Montreal, and yes! even Vancouver.

Im glad to see you have travelled, but I know for a fact their are many upon many of Europeans, Asians, Africans...who have never, ever heard of Calgary. Sorry to dissapoint you :(

No disappointment. I haven't encountered that...I'm taking it you have talked to many Europeans, Asians, and Africans??? Oh, or maybe its the "have you heard of Calgary poll?".

If you read way back in the thread when this talk about the "big 3" started, you'll see I have no doubt that TO is at a different international level - it represents Canada as no other city in Canada can. However, aside from a lot of vacuous comments, I haven't read any convincing evidence that Vancouver plays at TO's level. I firmly believe it won't be too long before Calgary is playing even a bigger part internationally, representing Western Canada.

canada cowboy

December 12th, 2005, 05:23 AM

CMD UW......
I don't agree with one of your statements. Ottawa is well known as it is the capitol.
People also see cities as not only population but their location and international importance.
Tokyo and MexicoCity are roughly the same size at 30million but there is no question that compared to Tokyo, MexicoCity is nothing but a very big town.
I'm not trying to be insulting but everyone knows it and I bet most Mexicans would overwhelmingly agree.

Interesting to note that 8 of Canada's 10 largest metros are growing slower in 2004 than 2000. In Vancouver the drop has been particularily large. I think much of that is due to the high housing prices. No point of getting a good job in a nice city if you're going to pauparize yourself doing it. Only Quebec and Winnipeg showed slight gains.

When people in Canada think of Canada most important cities on a shortlist they think Tor/Mon/Van.....no question.
When people outside Canada think of Canada's most important city they name Toronto......no question.

I'm not Mexican, but I would find that insulting. It's likely you just have a) never been to Mexico City, or b) just haven't familiarized yourself with the "big town". It is not as wealthy as Tokyo - but it is most definitely one of the largest financial and cultural centers of the world...and that is growing in importance quickly. Unfortunately, it also has a very high crime rate.

Well, again, I agree with your "shortlist" if you're stopping at 3, but why stop at 3????

If you take a look at the GaWC categories - which tries to establish a taxinomical structure for "world cities" - you'd see TO as a "Beta City" near the top of the list, Montreal still hanging in there as a "Gamma World City"...however, Calgary and Vancouver still only show "Evidence of World City Formation" - which by the way, no other Canadian city is listed. It's either the Big-2, or its going to be the big-4 soon enough.

Rhino

December 12th, 2005, 05:57 AM

the big 3 reason is simple , if we want to get really chinsey on it we can say the three biggest Metros in Canada represent the big three. Calgary is 4th on that list. Calgary on a stage of Buisness in world comodities would rank number 2 in Canada , to T.O. and may even surpass it soon . ( T.O. has bay street . )

deej

December 12th, 2005, 05:59 AM

If you take a look at the GaWC categories - which tries to establish a taxinomical structure for "world cities" - you'd see TO as a "Beta City" near the top of the list, Montreal still hanging in there as a "Gamma World City"...however, Calgary and Vancouver still only show "Evidence of World City Formation" - which by the way, no other Canadian city is listed. It's either the Big-2, or its going to be the big-4 soon enough.

Speaking as someone who has lived out of Canada for the past 15 years, I'd say Vancouver is still much more recognizable on the world stage than Calgary is (certainly in London and most Asian countries I've done business in). To think Calgary's brand awareness worldwide compares to Vancouver is wishful thinking at this point.

From what I can see, this has less to do with economic weight (in which Calgary is clearly very strong and punches way above other cities of similar size) and more to do with the fact that Vancouver simply has had more immigration from, for example, HK/China/Taiwan/etc over the past decade.

I would agree this perception is changing -- and will continue to change as Calgary further builds its reputation as a head-office city. Having oil at $60 a barrel doesn't hurt either.

ryanE

December 12th, 2005, 06:04 AM

No disappointment. I haven't encountered that...I'm taking it you have talked to many Europeans, Asians, and Africans??? Oh, or maybe its the "have you heard of Calgary poll?".

If you read way back in the thread when this talk about the "big 3" started, you'll see I have no doubt that TO is at a different international level - it represents Canada as no other city in Canada can. However, aside from a lot of vacuous comments, I haven't read any convincing evidence that Vancouver plays at TO's level. I firmly believe it won't be too long before Calgary is playing even a bigger part internationally, representing Western Canada.

Have you heard of Calgary poll?? No i havent heard of it, but I hardly think a poll on a skyscraper forum speaks for most of the world.

And once again yes I have talked with many, I have worked along side them in their countries, have lived next door to them in their cities...and I work along with expats now that Im back here in Canada :)

Anyways....I havent seen you post any solid evidence that Calgary is playing at anywhere near Vancouver's level either but It takes more then a street party and some head offices to make a city an international player. I mean even the obvious ones...Vancouver is our largest international port - and one of the busiest in the world, it is the gateway to Canada from the entire Pacific Rim for travel, business, tourism, immigration..and quite frankly simply because of its size it is more important politically and culturally then either of Alberta's fine cities. I definetly agree that Toronto is most definetly the biggest Canadian player globally, but if we must have a big 3, Montreal and Vancouver certainly deserve to be there more then any other city in this country.

PS - Its pretty much BS to discount those events I listed in Edmonton - they are no less important in a lot of ways to a city then anything you listed for Calgary - I really think you are stretching it with this one.

ryanE

December 12th, 2005, 06:07 AM

Boris550

December 12th, 2005, 06:22 AM

*cough*

So what exactly do you guys think will be the thing that pushes Calgary to the next level? Will it be just one thing? Maybe a few things? Maybe a lot of things?

Right now I'm thinking about Eau Claire Redevelopment + East Village + New Art Gallery + New Museum + New tallest. If all this were done within a single decade I bet we could make some headlines...

ssiguy2

December 12th, 2005, 06:56 AM

To get as you asked, yes Calgary is on the rise as a major Canadian city.
It is a major business head office city and is growing at a fair clip.
One thing that inhibits Calgary's national standing is that people think of 2 things when think of Calgary, oil and red-necks.
Is that fair? Of course not but it doesn't make it any less true.
People don't view Edmonton the same way. Yes they see oil but also see it as Alberta's mort liberal and cultural centre and of course U.ofA. which has a very good reputation across the country. U.of Calgary is seen as a large school but a decidedly mediocer, middle of the road one.
When people think of great Canadian schools people always think of U.of A. but not UCalgary.
I think if Calgary wants to continue its rise and stature then the city must enhance its intellectual institutions. Calgary's reputation as being a rather conservative close minded metropolis does not enhance that.
All great cities have a great university and learning centres. That is something that Calgary must grow and nuture.
Another problem that Calgarians have to accept is that it has VERY little political influence on the national stage.
Calgarians vote Conservative all the time. That of course is their right but by doing so they leave themselves completly unrepresented at the cabinet table. No one is speaking for Calgary so it gets no attention or influence.
Look at Ralph Goodale. He is the only Liberal from Sask and what does he get?......Minister of Finance.
Now without Kilgour Alberta has just one seat in government, the total bitch herself, Ann Maclelan. She always gets a major cabinet post eventhough she is ineffectual in all of them.
Getting even one seat in the government would guarantee a POWERFUL cabinet post.
The Liberals would bend over backwards to give Calgary a strong voice in Ottawa by helping that Liberal getting a foothold in Southern Alberta and its 15 seats especially because it is Conservative Party's heartland. This would also get Calgary gobs of federal money to expand that base as Vancouver has been getting by finally making inroads in the LowerMainland in the last 2 elections.
Its great to always in that anti-eastern protest vote but it has and will continue to greatly inhibit Calgary's national influence.

josh white

December 12th, 2005, 06:58 AM

I think richness and diversity in the urban environment will help push Calgary to another level. The streetlife that will come along with the big growth that is happening in the central city will draw more urban amenities (restaurants, bars, shops etc) and a feeling of busy-ness that will make the city more cosmopolitan. Investment in the public realm (which will happen with the Centre City plan, and the TIF for the East Side) is key to accelerating this trend by making the downtown more attractive.

Filling in the urban fabric and density of urban neighborhoods is important, as well as irmproving on the stock of public institutions such as the new central library, a new art gallery, the urban campus will help.

The continual growth of arts and cultural activity will help too. Imrpoving the lifeblood of our city - rapid transit - is also badly needed.

The great thing is, I see all these things happening currently, there is a lot of interest in urban living, the city is ready to implement great plans that are coming on stream finally, and there is a general level of optimism that will allow great things to happen. There certainly is the attitude out there that the city can be great, and a lot of people are working to help make it actually happen.

Again - in response to some of the comments about recognition. I think Calgary's image within Canada is one that is probably the most out of line from reality of any city. Some of the things I hear in Ontario (where I currently am) are truly shocking. However, as Calgary contiues to improve, the word will get out, and I believe this image will change, and also its reputaiton and stature will grow and grow. However, this shouldn't be the motivating factor behind improvement. It should be for creating a great city that we will all love to live in. One that is safe, beautiful, energetic, cosmopolitan, diverse, and interesting. Reputation will follow

♣628.finst

December 12th, 2005, 07:12 AM

Vancouver is just a big town, while Calgary and Edmonton is definitely beautiful cities with rapidly developing skyline.

U. Alberta is one of the best in Canada. But U. Calgary is about the level of U. Saskatchewan, just a normal Canadian university, which a stupid man like me could get a master degree there.

If Calgary eventually have the tallest skyscraper in the world, that would be the symbol of Canada... but it seems not practical within 20 years.

Alberta has oil, and hard-working people, and good climate, better winter... unlike here in Thompson, or even Winnipeg. They got a lot of money from oil, and become very rich, and develop their cities into the world's best. But I doubt if this trend could continue, as the diversity increases. Right now, both Calgary and Edmonton enjoy some highest living standard across Canada, and the world. Their living index is quite low but their income is comparable to Montreal or Vancouver... they got fewer crimes than Winnipeg, Regina or Saskatoon. They have more educated population. All these makes Calgary attractive to immigrants rather than Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal, and of course Winnipeg.

Boris550

December 12th, 2005, 07:26 AM

Bucanero

December 12th, 2005, 08:10 AM

Screw that, man. The day that Calgarians vote a Liberal in simply to get a cabinet post is the day I spit on the flag. To do such a thing is absolutely despicable and I am disgusted just thinking of it.

From what I see in the polls, you won't be desecrating the flag anytime soon.

rt_0891

December 12th, 2005, 08:31 AM

Alberta has oil, and hard-working people, and good climate, better winter... unlike here in Thompson, or even Winnipeg. They got a lot of money from oil, and become very rich, and develop their cities into the world's best. But I doubt if this trend could continue, as the diversity increases.

What do you mean by that exactly?

rt_0891

December 12th, 2005, 08:37 AM

Calgarians vote Conservative all the time. That of course is their right but by doing so they leave themselves completly unrepresented at the cabinet table. No one is speaking for Calgary so it gets no attention or influence.
Look at Ralph Goodale. He is the only Liberal from Sask and what does he get?......Minister of Finance.
Now without Kilgour Alberta has just one seat in government, the total bitch herself, Ann Maclelan. She always gets a major cabinet post eventhough she is ineffectual in all of them.
Getting even one seat in the government would guarantee a POWERFUL cabinet post.
The Liberals would bend over backwards to give Calgary a strong voice in Ottawa by helping that Liberal getting a foothold in Southern Alberta and its 15 seats especially because it is Conservative Party's heartland. This would also get Calgary gobs of federal money to expand that base as Vancouver has been getting by finally making inroads in the LowerMainland in the last 2 elections.
Its great to always in that anti-eastern protest vote but it has and will continue to greatly inhibit Calgary's national influence.

Why not re-model the Conservative Party instead and make it a truly national party? (i.e. find a leader that Ontarians aren't scared off)

♣628.finst

December 12th, 2005, 10:41 AM

What do you mean by that exactly?

Look at those rundown parts of Toronto, Windsor, East Vancouver...

Superman

December 12th, 2005, 11:33 AM

Sorry, but I'm not buying your arguments...step into Vancouver, and it doesn't feel anywhere close to the "big city" feel of TO (or Montreal).

Is your head thick, why dont you read carefully before you respond. :hilarious. You just lost credibility with that post.

Internationally? We've already had the Olympics - we also host the largest city-wide 10 day party in the country (Stampede), and have seen "international" conferences such as the G7 Summit, World Oil Conferences, etc. We also host one of the largest Equestrian events (the Round Table event as well - bringing top CEOs during the Masters) in the world - which is well represented from Europe, South America, and of course North America...how much more "international" does it get???

Are you kidding me, now you think Calgary is on the same level Internationally? LMAO, Who are you comparing it against? All of the three cities or just Vancouver? If its just Vancouver, which i am assuming, then you just being silly. As far as i know not many people know what Calgary is even if you held the Olympics. The Stampede is good for the city, but i can name you events in the other cities that are bigger. In no order, just randomly come to mind ( Celebration of lights, Just for laughs comedy festival etc) Edmonton has had more high profile events than Calgary, nevermind the other three which as i stated before are large, and are tops in North America and pretty solid worldwide( in terms of events). Tourism, diversity, and just simple awareness around the world as well. Your just bitter for some reason and trying to your best to bring Vancouver down, and your failing miserbaly.

Besides - my point about always being the "big 3", Vancouver was not much bigger 20 years ago compared to Calgary now....so what's your criteria?

There is a reason everyone says that, because its true , it was true 20 years ago, it was true 30 years ago etc. As you can see below.

A chart posted by Doady at Skyscraper page:

Pop 1970 Pop 1980
Toronto 2,628,043 2,998,947
Montreal 2,743,208 2,828,349
Vancouver 1,082,352 1,268,183
Ottawa/Hull 717, 978 920,817
Calgary 403,319 592,743
Edmonton 495,702 657,017

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?threadid=92359&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

For the entire chart and longer timelines visit that link.

Also, according to Statcan, Greater Van only grew by 20,000 between 2003-04, where Calgary grew 19,000. Vancouver will continue to attract those from Asia over the next couple decades, but as prices continue to go up, I doubt it will always be that way.

Posted by Dr. Joe awhile back.

PHP Code:
Population on July 1.
change
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2000-04
========= ========= ========= ========= ======
Toronto 4,747,200 4,883,800 5,020,400 5,114,500 5,203,600 456,400

Montreal 3,471,100 3,507,200 3,546,900 3,577,100 3,607,200 136,100

Vancouver 2,040,300 2,076,100 2,111,300 2,140,600 2,160,000 119,700

Ottawa-Gat-1,080,700 1,105,700 1,121,600 1,134,300 1,142,700 62,000

Calgary 952,500 976,700 1,002,000 1,018,900 1,037,100 84,600

Edmonton 946,900 961,500 979,900 990,800 1,001,600 54,800

Quebec 692,600 696,400 701,600 705,500 710,800 18,200

Hamilton 678,800 689,200 697,900 704,800 710,300 31,500

Winnipeg 686,400 690,100 693,700 697,100 702,400 16,000

London 445,000 449,600 454,500 457,600 459,700 14,700

Kitchener 423,300 431,300 438,700 444,700 450,100 26,800

St. Cath.-Niagar 390,300 391,700 393,200 394,400 394,900 4,600

Halifax 366,300 369,100 373,800 376,900 379,800 13,500

Oshawa 301,800 308,500 315,800 324,000 332,000 30,200

Windsor 313,700 320,800 325,900 328,600 330,900 17,200

Victoria 321,800 325,400 326,800 328,200 330,200 8,400

Saskatoon 230,300 230,800 231,800 232,600 234,000 3,700

Regina 198,000 196,800 196,500 197,300 198,600 600

St. John's 175,900 176,100 177,500 178,700 179,900 4,000

Sherbrooke 155,600 157,000 158,700 160,400 162,300 6,700

Greater Sudbury 162,200 161,500 161,000 161,100 161,100 - 1,100

Abbotsford N/A 153,700 155,200 156,300 160,100 6,400

Kingston N/A 152,700 154,500 155,700 156,500 3,800

Saguenay 159,400 157,800 156,200 155,000 154,200 - 5,200

Trois-Rivieres 140,600 140,100 140,000 140,400 141,200 600

Thunder Bay 126,800 126,600 126,200 126,800 127,100 300

Saint John 126,600 126,000 126,100 126,300 126,500 - 100

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=227528

As you can see Calgary had 84,000 people over four years, an average of about 20,000. Vancouver had 119,000 over four years from 2000-2004, average about 30,000 people a year. Calgary will likely never get more immigrants than Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. If you dont like the name "big 3", then ignore it, but those are just facts, not even arguable.

♣628.finst

December 12th, 2005, 03:51 PM

Is your head thick, why dont you read carefully before you respond. :hilarious. You just lost credibility with that post.

Are you kidding me, now you think Calgary is on the same level Internationally? LMAO, Who are you comparing it against? All of the three cities or just Vancouver? If its just Vancouver, which i am assuming, then you just being silly. As far as i know not many people know what Calgary is even if you held the Olympics. The Stampede is good for the city, but i can name you events in the other cities that are bigger. In no order, just randomly come to mind ( Celebration of lights, Just for laughs comedy festival etc) Edmonton has had more high profile events than Calgary, nevermind the other three which as i stated before are large, and are tops in North America and pretty solid worldwide( in terms of events). Tourism, diversity, and just simple awareness around the world as well. Your just bitter for some reason and trying to your best to bring Vancouver down, and your failing miserbaly.

There is a reason everyone says that, because its true , it was true 20 years ago, it was true 30 years ago etc. As you can see below.

A chart posted by Doady at Skyscraper page:

Pop 1970 Pop 1980
Toronto 2,628,043 2,998,947
Montreal 2,743,208 2,828,349
Vancouver 1,082,352 1,268,183
Ottawa/Hull 717, 978 920,817
Calgary 403,319 592,743
Edmonton 495,702 657,017

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?threadid=92359&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

For the entire chart and longer timelines visit that link.

Posted by Dr. Joe awhile back.

PHP Code:
Population on July 1.
change
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2000-04
========= ========= ========= ========= ======
Toronto 4,747,200 4,883,800 5,020,400 5,114,500 5,203,600 456,400

Montreal 3,471,100 3,507,200 3,546,900 3,577,100 3,607,200 136,100

Vancouver 2,040,300 2,076,100 2,111,300 2,140,600 2,160,000 119,700

Ottawa-Gat-1,080,700 1,105,700 1,121,600 1,134,300 1,142,700 62,000

Calgary 952,500 976,700 1,002,000 1,018,900 1,037,100 84,600

Edmonton 946,900 961,500 979,900 990,800 1,001,600 54,800

Quebec 692,600 696,400 701,600 705,500 710,800 18,200

Hamilton 678,800 689,200 697,900 704,800 710,300 31,500

Winnipeg 686,400 690,100 693,700 697,100 702,400 16,000

London 445,000 449,600 454,500 457,600 459,700 14,700

Kitchener 423,300 431,300 438,700 444,700 450,100 26,800

St. Cath.-Niagar 390,300 391,700 393,200 394,400 394,900 4,600

Halifax 366,300 369,100 373,800 376,900 379,800 13,500

Oshawa 301,800 308,500 315,800 324,000 332,000 30,200

Windsor 313,700 320,800 325,900 328,600 330,900 17,200

Victoria 321,800 325,400 326,800 328,200 330,200 8,400

Saskatoon 230,300 230,800 231,800 232,600 234,000 3,700

Regina 198,000 196,800 196,500 197,300 198,600 600

St. John's 175,900 176,100 177,500 178,700 179,900 4,000

Sherbrooke 155,600 157,000 158,700 160,400 162,300 6,700

Greater Sudbury 162,200 161,500 161,000 161,100 161,100 - 1,100

Abbotsford N/A 153,700 155,200 156,300 160,100 6,400

Kingston N/A 152,700 154,500 155,700 156,500 3,800

Saguenay 159,400 157,800 156,200 155,000 154,200 - 5,200

Trois-Rivieres 140,600 140,100 140,000 140,400 141,200 600

Thunder Bay 126,800 126,600 126,200 126,800 127,100 300

Saint John 126,600 126,000 126,100 126,300 126,500 - 100

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=227528

As you can see Calgary had 84,000 people over four years, an average of about 20,000. Vancouver had 119,000 over four years from 2000-2004, average about 30,000 people a year. Calgary will likely never get more immigrants than Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. If you dont like the name "big 3", then ignore it, but those are just facts, not even arguable.

So it's population growth really makes Calgary prosperous? No, Calgary booms because of the wealth, and a low living index that is affordable for normal Canadians and Americans in the SOUTH, where they call it Northern Midwest.

ssiguy2

December 12th, 2005, 06:29 PM

As I stated before, Calgary is on the losing end of political influence in Canada. In fact I can't think of a major city in Canada that has less influence on the national stage.

Voting for the Liberals may result in the selling of your soul but by having no one to represent them in Ottawa means they are completly ignored.
If Alberta gets no seats in a Liberal government it will become nothing more than a cash cow. Besides its money ther feds couldn't care less if its there or not.

Fair? Not in the slightest but its allso true. Politics by its very nature is unfair and anybody who says otherwise is a complete pathological liar.

walli

December 12th, 2005, 08:58 PM

As I stated before, Calgary is on the losing end of political influence in Canada. In fact I can't think of a major city in Canada that has less influence on the national stage.

IF true, the reason is not as simple as you've stated. I think having a political government that *tries* to work with the Federal Government is critical, instead of being confrontational all the time. I've often voted for different parties provincially and federally, and I think it is a shame that the provincial conservatives align completely with the Federal neo-cons instead of seperating Federal and Provincial areas for the benefit of Alberta.

From a municipal perspective, I belive Bronco was very positive with the dialogue and compormises made with the Federal Government, IE the deal for cities. Neo-cons would likely cut that and instead provide money for beer and popcorn.

All this being said, you are absolutely correct in pointing out that a Liberal from Calgary would be strategically positive. From a policy perspective, I believe the Liberals have been more flexible mixing in perspectives from right, centre and left - unlike the neo-cons. Not sure where the best chances are for the city - perhaps the NE with the immigrant population. Art Hangar has really done nothing for us ... he's like a piece of art hanging on a wall. We really need to get some *intelligent* people out there [read, ones with significant education], and not simply ones who speak for one specific ideology.

Oh ... and I'm Rahim Jaffer :)

canada cowboy

December 12th, 2005, 10:39 PM

And once again yes I have talked with many, I have worked along side them in their countries, have lived next door to them in their cities...and I work along with expats now that Im back here in Canada

Anyways....I havent seen you post any solid evidence that Calgary is playing at anywhere near Vancouver's level either but It takes more then a street party and some head offices to make a city an international player

Well - I guess it all comes down to our own personal experiences, and is subjective. There doesn't seem to be any criteria to defining how well "recognized" a city is or isn't. "some" head offices and a GREAT "street" party will help though :)

PS - Its pretty much BS to discount those events I listed in Edmonton - they are no less important in a lot of ways to a city then anything you listed for Calgary - I really think you are stretching it with this one.

I'm not discounting the events, I'm discounting how they have helped Edmonton with any "international" recognition. Most of those events are hosted events which move from place to place. A lot will watch those events, and not realize where there from (aside from the Olympics - and arguably the World Track and Field you mentioned). There are very few that define Edmonton, and less that get noticed. I'm not saying that the world stops when the Stampede is on, but it is well known, and is very much apart of Calgary and its heritage. Spruce Meadows is also a top international event which will never leave Calgary - the Masters attracts some 150,000 visitors over several days. I will concede though that it is a niche attraction - but don't discount its popularity in Europe and South America.

This isn't a thread about Edm - however, I would see a major Edm attraction as West Edm Mall (which is still great IMO), and arguably the Fringe.

So what exactly do you guys think will be the thing that pushes Calgary to the next level? Will it be just one thing? Maybe a few things? Maybe a lot of things?

Right now I'm thinking about Eau Claire Redevelopment + East Village + New Art Gallery + New Museum + New tallest. If all this were done within a single decade I bet we could make some headlines...

I don't know if it easy to define "the next level" - but however its defined, Calgary is on track to hitting it. The latest Economist said it best in their Canada Survey, refering to it as the "Calgary Affect", helping a power-shift from east to west (nothing for TO to worry about though). There are things working with Calgary for sure - Oil, Head Offices, growing population, wealth, and beautiful mountain scenery (even if those TOers skip Calgary and head right for'em...they'll be lured in one day).

Despite the popular belief that Calgary is just a crazy, out-of-control, sprawling city (well, maybe a little truth to that), the city (and support from Calgarians) - have a well-laid out framework to build a bigger, better, more efficient city. Those that move from the "big-3" cities to Calgary are demanding that urban lifestyle - which is evident downtown. We also have the benefit of looking at other great cities, and learning (hopefully) from their mistakes.

But, IMO, the biggest thing that will take Calgary to "the next level" is attitude. It's what helped get us the Olympics. It's what helped build one of the first LRT systems. And that was before we were even 500,000. Then we started to change federal politics (and still trying). And we became the HO centre of western Canada. And grew the Greatest Outdoor Show on Earth into the largest city-wide party in the country - and one of the biggest in NA. That was before we hit 1 million people.

And from Josh's comments above - I agree. I'm sure guys like you will help continue building Calgary into that "next level" city (city planning in Calgary for your future, right???)

Is your head thick, why dont you read carefully before you respond. . You just lost credibility with that post.

Sorry, you read that wrong. That was in response to someone mentioning the "big-3" have a big city "feel", and Calgary doesn't. Vancouver does feel big. But, it doesn't feel as big as TO. Part of that is subjective, part may be obvious. Calgary feels like a big city as well. It, however, doesn't feel as big as Vancouver. Anyhow - I think the "big-3" discussion is dead.

Are you kidding me, now you think Calgary is on the same level Internationally? LMAO, Who are you comparing it against? All of the three cities or just Vancouver?

Just Vancouver. The thing is, no one has defined what "international" level we're talking about. What is the criteria? Simply saying it's at a higher level isn't good enough. Regardless, I do recognize Van is well-known - and for good reason. As well, the same can be said for TO and Montreal. If Calgary is not as well known yet (which so far has been the opinion of most on this thread), it will get its recognition in time...Stunts like the City of Calgary and the Stampede doing an impromptu parade (with horses) at Times Square last July to ring the closing bell at the NYSE (with everyone on the trade floor wearing the signature Calgary white Smithbilts) help :)

Your just bitter for some reason and trying to your best to bring Vancouver down, and your failing miserbaly.

Sorry - yeah, I'm probably coming off that way...over a year of working in Central Van listening to many here run Calgary down has probably done that to me (before that, it was TO listening to them run the west down - including Van). Don't mean to. I am typing this while looking out at Burrard Inlet from my 20th floor room...trust me, I like Vancouver. I think some just quickly think there's some kind of "pecking" order with regards to Canadian cities. I disagree. I believe that's the attitude that will push Calgary further.

As for those other events you mentioned...yes, Celebration of Lights was quite good this year, and with nearly 300,000 watching - quite busy. I disagree that the event is bigger than the Stampede though. There are quite a few people that come to Calgary for the Stampede, and never step foot on the grounds (which by the way, attracts 1.25 million people). Anyhow - not disputing other big events in other cities, they do all have them....some just stick out as being a part of a city more.

cmd uw

December 12th, 2005, 11:17 PM

This isn't a thread about Edm - however, I would see a major Edm attraction as West Edm Mall (which is still great IMO), and arguably the Fringe.
And the Fringe event is becoming more popular year after year. likewise with the Folk Fest.

Stunts like the City of Calgary and the Stampede doing an impromptu parade (with horses) at Times Square last July to ring the closing bell at the NYSE (with everyone on the trade floor wearing the signature Calgary white Smithbilts) help :)
I think that stunt re-emphasised the 'hick image' that plagues the city. If I were a New Yorker, seeing cowboys with white stetsons on horseback would blare 'redneck Texas'. It doesn't help when most people maintain that attitude in the first place.

walli

December 12th, 2005, 11:56 PM

... the 'hick image' that plagues the city. If I were a New Yorker, seeing cowboys with white stetsons on horseback would blare 'redneck Texas'. It doesn't help when most people maintain that attitude in the first place.

And then you have Harper and the gang rubbing all of diversity the wrong way, further reinforcing the 'hick image' as you call it.

Boris550

December 12th, 2005, 11:59 PM

Whatever, I wear my cowboy hat quite proudly whenever Stampede comes around.

cmd uw

December 13th, 2005, 01:57 AM

Whatever, I wear my cowboy hat quite proudly whenever Stampede comes around.
And so you should, it is a major part of our history.

The problem is that many outsiders maintain this preconceived notion that Alberta and much of the Prairies are nothing more than a bunch of hicks. Our cities are filled with people who drive trucks and wear cowboy hats.

I'm not against it, but it is a sterotype that does label us in a negative manner.

canada cowboy

December 13th, 2005, 02:00 AM

And the Fringe event is becoming more popular year after year. likewise with the Folk Fest.

I think that stunt re-emphasised the 'hick image' that plagues the city. If I were a New Yorker, seeing cowboys with white stetsons on horseback would blare 'redneck Texas'. It doesn't help when most people maintain that attitude in the first place.

Well, I might be out on my own (on this forum), but I firmly believe in keeping that image alive - it is part of our heritage and culture. To shun that is like shunning any other culture. I have family and friends in Alberta farming industry - "rednecks" to those that don't know any better - and it is a culture worthy of being proud of.

What Calgary struggles with though is trying to balance that - keeping that image alive (similar to Texas), while trying to be as diverse as other cities (from a ethnicity perspective, is #4 in the country...a country that is very diverse, unlike a lot of US cities).

The NYSE embraced that stunt (New Yorkers were shocked to see horses walking the streets) - two years in a row now. The first year, the famed (in Calgary :) ) bull "Outlaw" was the first animal to ring the closing bell for the NYSE - a stunt that made international news (BBC and CNN from what I saw).

I think Calgary can find that balance - and I think it already has.

BTW - its not Stetsons, its Smithbilt in Calgary. They've made hats since 1919, and all the G7 leaders have one, as well as any actor you've seen in a recent western. :)

canada cowboy

December 13th, 2005, 02:03 AM

And then you have Harper and the gang rubbing all of diversity the wrong way, further reinforcing the 'hick image' as you call it.

I am a conservative, and I can't stand Harper. I think he has some great ideas, but when it comes to any social issue, he turns everyone off.

Now Klein...I wish he'd run for PM - just an honest guy, that says the wrong things once in a while :)

Boris550

December 13th, 2005, 02:35 AM

Now Klein...I wish he'd run for PM - just an honest guy, that says the wrong things once in a while :)

True enough. Whether you like Klein or not, you've gotta admit that he's as honest as politicians come.

walli

December 13th, 2005, 06:49 AM

A Klein / Yeltsin summit would be one of a kind, eh'?

In all honesty, Klein doesn't have the refinement or diplomacy skills to be a PM. He also doesn't have the education to gain any credibility.

canada cowboy

December 13th, 2005, 07:11 AM

A Klein / Yeltsin summit would be one of a kind, eh'?

In all honesty, Klein doesn't have the refinement or diplomacy skills to be a PM. He also doesn't have the education to gain any credibility.

Funny you mention credibility when talking about being a PM.

I think Klein would do fine - he might just rub some the wrong way...how's that different than our past several leaders? :)

ssiguy2

December 13th, 2005, 07:48 AM

I can only think of one premier that is PM material..........Gary Doer of Manitoba.
Meanwhile back in Calgary.

To have any real power in this country you have to do the Montreal-Toronto cocktail circuit.
As far as Tor/Mon are concerned the rest of the country is just the suburbs and in many ways its true. The power base in this country will ALWAYS be Tor/Mon. Vancouver doesn't even rank.
Calgary's rise is helping to solidify its rising position. At one point it was very interesting. QC,EDM,WIN,OT-H,CAL were all approx the same population and vying for the number 4 spot. That has now been narrowed to Cal, Ot-H, and EDM.
I think in about 15 years the winner will be clear as Canada's forth city and it will be Calgary.
If current population trends continue and Alberta's economy continues to skyrocket it could at one point overtake Vancouver. Maybe in 40 years.
Its population and economy will definatly put it there but its lack of political power on the national stage will greatly inhibit it.
Its not rocket science, you cannot be influential without a significant number of MPs in Ottawa and especially someone in the cabinet.
Cities rise and fall relativly compared to others. In 1950 the battle for number 3 was between Winnipeg and Vancouver. How times change.
Now however the field is starting to thin out and overtime {15-20 years} I think Calgary will be the undesputed 4th city of Canada just as Montreal is the undisputed #2. In the 1970s there was a real battle for #1 between Toronto and Montreal but now there is no question of Toronto being, far and away, Canada's premier city.

Calgary is on the rise and it will be for the long term. Calgary is on a roll and it won't stop for long time, if ever.

walli

December 13th, 2005, 06:35 PM

Funny you mention credibility when talking about being a PM.

I think Klein would do fine - he might just rub some the wrong way...how's that different than our past several leaders? :)

The current PM not only finished high school prior to gaining a public post, he is also a Rhodes Scholar. The PM's father was a celebrated politician and worked hard on causes such as the fight against polio.

Klein was a drunk ... and post cutting down on the booze, has actually continued the trend of saying the wrong things, but without the entertainment value. Remember when he went into a homeless shelter and threw change at the people there? What a joke - PM my foot.

cmd uw

December 13th, 2005, 09:07 PM

The current PM not only finished high school prior to gaining a public post, he is also a Rhodes Scholar. The PM's father was a celebrated politician and worked hard on causes such as the fight against polio.

Klein was a drunk ... and post cutting down on the booze, has actually continued the trend of saying the wrong things, but without the entertainment value. Remember when he went drun into a homeless shelter and threw change at the people there? What a joke - PM my foot.
I also believe that PM Martin has a law degree from U of T.

Aaand I don't think Ralphy is worth as much as Martin

In 2004 Forbes.com estimated Martin's personal wealth at $225,000,000 (USD).

walli

December 13th, 2005, 09:20 PM

I also believe that PM Martin has a law degree from U of T.

Aaand I don't think Ralphy is worth as much as Martin

In 2004 Forbes.com estimated Martin's personal wealth at $225,000,000 (USD).

It's good to have successful people coming into the political fold. Much better than getting the "left-overs" who couldn't make ends meet or who simply tried for office on a dare.

Rhino

December 13th, 2005, 09:27 PM

Rich men and woman doing each other favors...

walli

December 13th, 2005, 09:35 PM

Rich men and woman doing each other favors...

People who know how to succeed shifting their energy to a greater cause ... except of course if you're an "each man to himself" neo-con. Are you with us, or against us?

Oh ... and I'm Rahim Jaffer. :)

snoopy

December 14th, 2005, 12:21 AM

Whatever, I wear my cowboy hat quite proudly whenever Stampede comes around.

I think you should be proud, Albertans have a great frontier history... i think Alberta should embrace it even more... just like Australia and how they earn more credibility if they can trace their roots back to the original prisoners who were sent to the island continent.

I think Calgary's fame and recognition are just starting to get noticed by the world, and soon it will be just as popular as Vancover/Montreal/Toronto. However, that being said, i still believe the Big 3 comparison is still valid in Canada. Its not just some made up thing to further their "Boys Club", but its based on world truths. =) Go Calgary!

DrJoe

December 14th, 2005, 02:02 AM

Calgary is still too much of a boom/bust city to be considered with the big 3 IMO.

furrycanuck

December 14th, 2005, 06:30 AM

canada cowboy

December 14th, 2005, 07:01 AM

When is the last time Calgary lost population? Calgary is as much of a "boom bust" city as Toronto. It has done nothing but grow for all of this century, save for something like 2 years.

I love how people from Toronto think that Calgary is like Ft Macmurray or a slightly bigger North Battleford. I told a former colleague what I posted earlier about a matter of simple and straightforward fact, that Calgary has more foreign-born and more visible minorities (proportionally) than does Montreal, and do you know what she said? "No it doesn't." And for almost everybody I know and have discussed these matters with in Toronto, just denying the facts is enough. Calgary is a monocultural backwater, it's a "boom bust" city that is somehow going to bleed a million people after the next "bust" (even though such a decrease in population has never happened in its entire history), all sorts of ridiculous bullshit.

It's amazing the attitude and thoughts on Calgary from Torontonians. I have one friend I worked with last year - born and raised in TO, and well-educated - who thought Calgary was about 200,000 people, or as I think he put it, the size of Regina.

I could go on, and on, and on, of stories from TO.

Anyhow - there is no disputing Calgary's growth, potential, and getting noticed more and more.

canada cowboy

December 14th, 2005, 07:10 AM

If current population trends continue and Alberta's economy continues to skyrocket it could at one point overtake Vancouver. Maybe in 40 years.
Its population and economy will definatly put it there but its lack of political power on the national stage will greatly inhibit it.

Wow. I thought I was making some controversial comments with the Van crowd. :)

However, to a certain degree, I agree - and have similar thoughts. As you point out Winnipeg vs Vancouver (it was well before 1950 though), and of course TO vs Montreal.

However, 40 years may be aggressive...especially considering Van is also growing, and has great potential to keep growing as well. In fact, I think the only thing that will slow Vancouver down is real estate - and the cost of it, where as Calgary won't face those issues. For Calgary to surpass Vancouver, you're talking likely 3-4 million people (at the very least)...which won't likely happen in our lifetime.

I do like the thought of it though... :)

josh white

December 14th, 2005, 07:34 AM

Considering that Vancouver was the same population as Calgary is now in 1970, and what Vancouver was like then, I'd say Calgary is way ahead of pace.

Even 15 years ago, look what Vancouver looked like: compare that to now, and the diffence is astounding. All the same things that happened to Vancouver in the 90's that transformed the downtown are happening on a large scale in Calgary now.

1991
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/yaletown1991.jpg

2005
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/yaletown2005.jpg

rt_0891

December 14th, 2005, 07:34 AM

^^ You left out the West End (first pic).

For a fair comparison, this is how Vancouver looked when it had 1,000,000 people (1960s). By the looks of it, I'd say Calgary is on pace for greatness.

Enjoy!

Vancouver #1:
http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/5029/vancouver1ps15tx.jpg

Now:
http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/vancouver/2005/vch2005_538.jpg

Vancouver #2:
http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/9803/vancouver2ps13yc.jpg

Now: http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/vancouver/2005/vch2005_412.jpg

Originally from SSP & posted in this thread:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=263167

josh white

December 14th, 2005, 07:39 AM

I know - but I am talking about areas of new development. West end has seen very little new development while false creek did. Same as Caglary's west and central Beltline will not see much development and is mostly built out, but the East Beltline is developing in much the same way Yaletown did. THe stuff that happened in Vancouver is nothing short of astounding in that amount of time.

Those pictures are really something!

rt_0891

December 14th, 2005, 07:45 AM

I know - but I am talking about areas of new development. West end has seen very little new development while false creek did. Same as Caglary's East Beltline will not see much development and is mostly built out, but the East Beltline is developing in much the same way Yaletown did. THe stuff that happened in Vancouver is nothing short of astounding in that amount of time.

True. Seeing the CBD in the pic confused me a bit though, since that area hasn't gone through tremendous growth (in terms of new skyscrapers), which is somewhat depressing in a sense. It's sad how downtown Van is just turning into another neighbourhood, losing its place as the region's commerical heart. I guess that's what happens when we bleed away our HQs.

josh white

December 14th, 2005, 07:54 AM

^ Yeah it is somewhat unfortunate - but for that one negative there aer several other aspects of downtown Vancouver's growth that make up for it.

looking at Calgary here in 2003, comparing it to Vancouver of the 60s is quite astounding. Also having dozens of great projects going on within this picture right now including a Norman Foster designed signature tower I'd say Calgary has an amazing base from which to work in the next few decades that could make it one of the greatest cities anywhere under 2 or even 3 million people. Well it will with me as dictator anyway.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/calgary2003.jpg

rt_0891

December 14th, 2005, 08:09 AM

looking at Calgary here in 2003, comparing it to Vancouver of the 60s is quite astounding. Also having dozens of great projects going on within this picture right now including a Norman Foster designed signature tower I'd say Calgary has an mazing base from which to work in the next few decades that could make it one of the greatest cities anywhere under 2 or even 3 million people.

Looks like a good time for me to snatch up some Calgary real estate. :cheers:

And think of the possibilities the surplus can be used to dress up the city. Funding for the arts, state of the art transit system, public monuments, gardens...For public art, May I suggest a 50storey statue of King Ralphie sticking up his massive middle finger at Eastern Canada. ;)

Will water capacity affect growth though?

Superman

December 14th, 2005, 11:54 AM

Sorry, you read that wrong. That was in response to someone mentioning the "big-3" have a big city "feel", and Calgary doesn't. Vancouver does feel big. But, it doesn't feel as big as TO. Part of that is subjective, part may be obvious. Calgary feels like a big city as well. It, however, doesn't feel as big as Vancouver. Anyhow - I think the "big-3" discussion is dead.

I never said it did, you just brought that up from nowhere, all i said was the three have a big city feel. I did not compare the three cities, which is what you assumed i did.

rapideye95

December 14th, 2005, 08:07 PM

Calgary has one of North America's greatest skylines...that huge strip with all high-rises...and then the other strip of low-rise apartments look awesome..Keep up the good work...you guys have a great skyline

neilio

December 14th, 2005, 09:43 PM

I think Calgary is finally coming of age and I think a growth rate of 2% per annum seems reasonable.
That must be compared to growth in other cities. Vancouver is expecting around 3 to 3.2 million by 2031, Montreal 4 to 4.2 {as always, depends on soverenty} and the extended GoldenHorshoe is expected to climb by 4 to 4.5 million to approx 12 million.

HUH? The extended Golden horshoe is already around 8 million people...
and by 2031 Montreal should be getting close to having a 5 million metro, its already at 3.6 working on 3.7....i dont see why it cant gain 1.3 million people by 2031.

canada cowboy

December 15th, 2005, 04:56 AM

HUH? The extended Golden horshoe is already around 8 million people...
and by 2031 Montreal should be getting close to having a 5 million metro, its already at 3.6 working on 3.7....i dont see why it cant gain 1.3 million people by 2031.

I think the point was that the golden horseshoe would have 12 million...and Montreal has been growing slow. Based on the growth from 2000-2004, Toronto (growing at 2.2%) would reach 9.3 million by 2031, Montreal (.94%) would hit 4.6 million, Vancouver (1.39%) to 3.1 million, Calgary (2.04%) to 1.8 million, Ottawa (1.55%) to 1.7 million, and Edmonton (1.37%) to 1.45 million.

Anyhow, there are so many other factors involved that far out. Regardless, Calgary hitting 2 million seems likely at some point in time.

canada cowboy

December 15th, 2005, 06:11 AM

True. Seeing the CBD in the pic confused me a bit though, since that area hasn't gone through tremendous growth (in terms of new skyscrapers), which is somewhat depressing in a sense. It's sad how downtown Van is just turning into another neighbourhood, losing its place as the region's commerical heart. I guess that's what happens when we bleed away our HQs.

But, nice neighbourhoods :) - and the various corners of downtown all have a different feel, yet all ped-friendly.

Also, Calgary is seeing a lot of changes outside of the core/beltline area - just not as noticeable in "skyline" pictures. As I was driving through Kits this morning, the low-rise condos and storefronts reminded me of The Bridges area just outside of downtown Calgary. The Bridges, Marda Loop (Garrison Woods), Bankview, Inglewood, etc...will all benefit and eventually turn into a Kits/Granville Rise/Kerrisdale neighbourhood overtime. As well, I'm sure its a matter of time before we see multi-family homes/highrises increase around the c-train stations - much the same as what's happening through Burnaby around the Skytrain stations.

I just hope they all turn out as nice in Calgary. :)

furrycanuck

December 16th, 2005, 02:20 AM

I agree- The Bridges is a LOT like Kits!

DrJoe

December 16th, 2005, 03:17 AM

I think the point was that the golden horseshoe would have 12 million...and Montreal has been growing slow. Based on the growth from 2000-2004, Toronto (growing at 2.2%) would reach 9.3 million by 2031, Montreal (.94%) would hit 4.6 million, Vancouver (1.39%) to 3.1 million, Calgary (2.04%) to 1.8 million, Ottawa (1.55%) to 1.7 million, and Edmonton (1.37%) to 1.45 million.

Anyhow, there are so many other factors involved that far out. Regardless, Calgary hitting 2 million seems likely at some point in time.

The actual projections for toronto by 2031 are...

City of Toronto 3.1 million
Greater Toronto 8.1 million
E.G. Horseshoe 11.7 million

Then again it is all subjective. Ontario is expected to be anywhere between 14.5 to 18 million, likely 16.5

rt_0891

December 16th, 2005, 05:13 AM

But, nice neighbourhoods :) - and the various corners of downtown all have a different feel, yet all ped-friendly.

Also, Calgary is seeing a lot of changes outside of the core/beltline area - just not as noticeable in "skyline" pictures. As I was driving through Kits this morning, the low-rise condos and storefronts reminded me of The Bridges area just outside of downtown Calgary.

Is the Bridges fully occupied now? Last time I was in Calgary, the first blocks were just going up.

josh white

December 16th, 2005, 05:33 AM

canada cowboy

December 16th, 2005, 09:12 AM

The actual projections for toronto by 2031 are...

City of Toronto 3.1 million
Greater Toronto 8.1 million
E.G. Horseshoe 11.7 million

Then again it is all subjective. Ontario is expected to be anywhere between 14.5 to 18 million, likely 16.5

I was just doing simple calculations based on current growth, but 8.1 seems more realistic (compared to 9.5 million). I can easily see Toronto becoming Chicago size - if not bigger. I kinda hope we can balance some of that in the west, with continued growth in Vancouver, and Calgary especially. :)

canada cowboy

December 16th, 2005, 09:18 AM

Only the first phases are finishing now and in the upcoming months. The second phase, consisting of five parcels of land, with buildings from 8-12 floors and a total of just over 700 units were just recently sold to dvelopers by the city. We will see those projects marketing in early 2006.

Bridges sitll has a long way to go before completion, but has been enormously successful so far. It will be a great TOD.

I've only driven through the area once back in September - and it was looking fantastic...it would have a long way to go to match Kits - but its definitely headed the right direction.

Excuse my ignorance, Josh - but TOD? I work in IT and my head is full of acronyms, but that one is not registering right now.

Boris550

December 16th, 2005, 09:27 AM

TOD - Transit Oriented Development :)

canada cowboy

December 16th, 2005, 10:23 AM

Ah - of course...Thank you. I can go to sleep now. :)

♣628.finst

December 16th, 2005, 10:58 AM

rt_0891

December 16th, 2005, 06:29 PM

To add to Calgary's list of accomplishments...

Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto Top Destinations for Business Meetings: Economist

The Edmonton Journal

Friday, December 16, 2005

- Three Canadian cities dominate the top of The Economist's list as being among the best destinations on the globe to hold a business meeting or conference.

Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto were cited as the three top locales, "because they have the right mix of feel-good factors without being too expensive," the magazine says. Vancouver just edged out Calgary for the top spot with a rating of 4.6 compared to Calgary's 4.9.

The ranking of 127 cities worldwide, where a lower number represents a better destination, placed Toronto third with 5.4 and Montreal at ninth with 9.5. No other Canadian cities were included in the ranking. The worst location for holding a business meeting, The Economist said, is Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea, which received a numerical result of 62.9.

Cities were selected based on criteria such as safety, costs, climate, transportation, airport distances and availability of good hotels.

© The Edmonton Journal 2005

canada cowboy

December 16th, 2005, 07:09 PM

^That is excellent news for Western Canada. While Vancouver seems to already top a lot of "lists" lately, I've noticed Calgary has been climbing the ranks - especially with the Economist and Mercer.

♣628.finst

December 18th, 2005, 09:37 AM

^That is excellent news for Western Canada. While Vancouver seems to already top a lot of "lists" lately, I've noticed Calgary has been climbing the ranks - especially with the Economist and Mercer.

Not surprising, as Calgary transformed really well since 1980. Vancouver ranks high because of the beautiful landscape distracted those researchers.

If Edmonton is also included in that list, it will be similar.

But if that's Winnipeg, perhaps crime rate is a bit higher and its winter is harsh for long period makes it ranks lower than Montreal... but all around Western Canada is in a good shape compared to those places in Western Europe.

canada cowboy

December 20th, 2005, 03:46 AM

Not surprising, as Calgary transformed really well since 1980. Vancouver ranks high because of the beautiful landscape distracted those researchers.

If Edmonton is also included in that list, it will be similar.

But if that's Winnipeg, perhaps crime rate is a bit higher and its winter is harsh for long period makes it ranks lower than Montreal... but all around Western Canada is in a good shape compared to those places in Western Europe.

Vancouver ranks high because it is an excellent city - the landscape really is a bonus at this point.

♣628.finst

December 20th, 2005, 03:38 PM

Vancouver ranks high because it is an excellent city - the landscape really is a bonus at this point.

Even we Canadians love that landscape, and therefore house price in Vancouver is much higher than in Prairie provinces because we have flat terrain, with only smooth landscape, most cities are nearly as flat as pancake.

In Eastern Canada they have warmer winter--- those researcher must deduct many points for cities like Winnipeg, Saskatoon or Edmonton because of their harsh winter, and Vancouver certainly have nice climate, though I personally don't like Canadian cities with only little snowfall in winter.

cmd uw

December 20th, 2005, 07:24 PM

Even we Canadians love that landscape, and therefore house price in Vancouver is much higher than in Prairie provinces because we have flat terrain, with only smooth landscape, most cities are nearly as flat as pancake.

In Eastern Canada they have warmer winter--- those researcher must deduct many points for cities like Winnipeg, Saskatoon or Edmonton because of their harsh winter, and Vancouver certainly have nice climate, though I personally don't like Canadian cities with only little snowfall in winter.
FYI, there is not a major difference in winter weather between Edmonton and Calgary.

walli

December 20th, 2005, 10:15 PM

FYI, there is not a major difference in winter weather between Edmonton and Calgary.

Incorrect - Calgary has major warming periods called Chinooks. Current temperature in Calgary is +10 and current temperature in Edmonton is -2 ... a difference of 12 degrees Celcius!!!

Calgary:
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0049.htm

Edmonton
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0103.htm

I live in Calgary but went to the UofA. Snow that falls in Edmonton generally stays for the entire winter. Calgary snow lasts for a couple weeks max, and thus we don't have to tunnel to work or school :)

canada cowboy

December 21st, 2005, 02:16 AM

Incorrect - Calgary has major warming periods called Chinooks. Current temperature in Calgary is +10 and current temperature in Edmonton is -2 ... a difference of 12 degrees Celcius!!!

Calgary:
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0049.htm

Edmonton
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0103.htm

I live in Calgary but went to the UofA. Snow that falls in Edmonton generally stays for the entire winter. Calgary snow lasts for a couple weeks max, and thus we don't have to tunnel to work or school :)

Take it, or leave it, the Chinooks are a noticeable difference - on "average" it represents a 5c difference for a daytime high in January. Edmonton is usually more stable weather year-round though. Edmonton is also milder than the other major prairie cities - a 7c difference in January on average with Winnipeg.

I'm not sure what "Eastern Canada" the previous statement was directed at, but if you are talking about TO, Calgary also has slightly more "above 0c" days during January and February than Toronto (15, 16.5 vs. 14.4, 14.1).

As well, when the new 30-year rolling period for averages is calculated in a few years (1981-2010), Calgary is on track to improve its average January high temp to -1.3 (TO's is on track for -1.7)...currently Calgary's is -2.7 and TO's is -2.1 (1971-2000 stats)...Global warming.

cmd uw

December 21st, 2005, 06:50 PM

Incorrect - Calgary has major warming periods called Chinooks. Current temperature in Calgary is +10 and current temperature in Edmonton is -2 ... a difference of 12 degrees Celcius!!!

Calgary:
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0049.htm

Edmonton
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0103.htm

I live in Calgary but went to the UofA. Snow that falls in Edmonton generally stays for the entire winter. Calgary snow lasts for a couple weeks max, and thus we don't have to tunnel to work or school :)
This has been debated over and over and over again on Skyscraperpage and I'm not about to reopen it.

Yes, the chinooks make a difference, but I can tell you right now there is no major difference between Calgary and Edmonton weather.

http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/weather/winners/city.cfm?lang=e
http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/weather/winners/city.cfm?lang=e

From my perspective, I think both cities a very evenly matched.

Think what you want Walli....

valantino

December 21st, 2005, 06:54 PM

No way for Calgary to go but up

Daver

December 23rd, 2005, 05:45 PM

This has been debated over and over and over again on Skyscraperpage and I'm not about to reopen it.

Yes, the chinooks make a difference, but I can tell you right now there is no major difference between Calgary and Edmonton weather.

http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/weather/winners/city.cfm?lang=e
http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/weather/winners/city.cfm?lang=e

From my perspective, I think both cities a very evenly matched.

Think what you want Walli....

Huh.....seems to me...THAT is a major difference!

I've lived in both cities, and Calgary has better winters hands down.

cmd uw

December 24th, 2005, 02:33 AM

Huh.....seems to me...THAT is a major difference!

I've lived in both cities, and Calgary has better winters hands down.
Huh, there is not a major difference....

Its ALL subjective imo....

Ponza

December 25th, 2005, 12:59 AM

Incorrect - Calgary has major warming periods called Chinooks. Current temperature in Calgary is +10 and current temperature in Edmonton is -2 ... a difference of 12 degrees Celcius!!!

Calgary:
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0049.htm

Edmonton
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/can/pages/CAAB0103.htm

I live in Calgary but went to the UofA. Snow that falls in Edmonton generally stays for the entire winter. Calgary snow lasts for a couple weeks max, and thus we don't have to tunnel to work or school :)

I travel to Calgary for work regularly and I hardly ever see much difference in the temp between Edmonton/Calgary. Yes there are a handful of days that Calgary will be 10 degrees warmer than Edmonton but they are few and far between.

Where there is a noticeable difference is in the amount of snow on the ground. When a Chinook comes in it will melt 2 feet of snow in a single day. When Edmonton get's above 0 temps during the winter hardly any snow melts because it is not windy and the sun doesn't have enough solar loading in DEC-JAN-FEB to melt much snow.

If you think there is a major difference it's because you don't travel enough. Nobody from Edmonton takes vacations in Calgary to get away from winter, if there was a major difference we would.

Ponza

December 25th, 2005, 01:08 AM

Huh.....seems to me...THAT is a major difference!

I've lived in both cities, and Calgary has better winters hands down.

I don't think anyone in Edmonton is saying we have better winters than Calgary because that is obviously not true. The difference however is not as big a Calgarians make it out to be. For me it always comes back to when it's minus 20 or 30 in Edmonton it's the same in Calgary and that's the part of winter I really hate.

Look at the stat's and you will see that Calgary has just as many minus 20 days as Edmonton which both have half as many as Saskatoon, Regina, and Winnipeg.

walli

December 25th, 2005, 01:50 AM

The weather statistics displayed here represent the mean value of each meteorological parameter for each month of the year. The sampling period for this data covers 30 years from 1961 to 1990.

days with 5+ cm snow on the ground - Edmonton 122 vs. Calgary 57
days with 10+cm snow on the ground - Edmonton 95 vs. Calgary 27
sunshine hours Dec - Edmonton 79 vs. Calgary 103
sunshine hours Jan - Edmonton 99 vs. Calgary 114
Average high in Dec - Edmonton -6 vs. Calgary -1
Average high in Jan - Edmonton -8 vs. Calgary -3

I think it's better to group Edmonton's weather with Winterpeg and not with Sunny Calgary! QED

Edmonton
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/stats/pages/C01979.htm?CAAB0103

J F M A M J J A S O N D
Maximum
-8 -4 0 10 17 21 23 22 17 11 0 -6
Minimum
-19 -16 -10 -2 3 7 9 8 3 -1 -10 -17
Mean
-13 -10 -4 4 10 14 16 15 10 5 -5 -11

Sun (h)
99 119 168 237 279 286 308 281 186 164 99 79

Days<0°C
J F M A M J J A S O N D
31 28 30 23 7 0 0 0 6 22 29 31

days Snow Cover>=1cm
31 28 26 8 0 0 0 0 0 2 16 28
Snow Cover>=5cm
29 27 23 6 0 0 0 0 0 2 11 24
Snow Cover>=10cm
24 24 19 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 19
Snow Cover>=20cm
14 13 11 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 6
Snow Cover>=50cm
0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Calgary
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/stats/pages/C02082.htm?CAAB0049

J F M A M J J A S O N D
Maximum
-3 0 3 11 16 21 23 23 17 13 3 -1
Minimum
-15 -11 -7 -1 3 7 10 9 4 0 -8 -13
Mean
-9 -5 -2 4 10 14 16 16 11 6 -2 -7

Sun (h)
114 137 174 215 256 286 320 285 202 179 125 103

Days<=0°C
J F M A M J J A S O N D
30 27 30 23 7 0 0 0 5 19 28 30

Snow Cover>=1cm
22 17 13 4 0 0 0 0 0 3 11 21
Snow Cover>=5cm
15 13 8 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 5 13
Snow Cover>=10cm
9 6 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 6
Snow Cover>=20cm
1 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Snow Cover>=50cm
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

canada cowboy

December 25th, 2005, 09:08 AM

^You may want to show the difference in days above 0c (as I pointed out in my previous post). There is a difference in winter - not necessarily everyday, but over the course of a winter. And I have travelled weekly to Edmonton, or Calgary when I lived in Edmonton. It is still "up and down" in Calgary, but with far more "nice" days, and usually less snow.

And don't mention Winnipeg. I know most group all the prairie cities together, but the climates are different. Edmonton has milder winters (by 5c as average highs in January), cooler summers, and is a lot drier.

Regardless, getting back to the original discussion - Calgary wouldn't earn a lot of points for its climate...it takes getting used to, and is still considered a cold climate. For many outside of Canada, it doesn't take much to consider a climate "cold".

It does well on Mercer and EIU because of many other factors.

Does anyone know why Edmonton isn't included on these lists? Edmonton is a great city as well - and I wouldn't necessarily think its too far off Calgary.

cmd uw

December 25th, 2005, 09:29 PM

♣628.finst

December 26th, 2005, 06:05 AM

Regardless, getting back to the original discussion - Calgary wouldn't earn a lot of points for its climate...it takes getting used to, and is still considered a cold climate. For many outside of Canada, it doesn't take much to consider a climate "cold".

It does well on Mercer and EIU because of many other factors.

Does anyone know why Edmonton isn't included on these lists? Edmonton is a great city as well - and I wouldn't necessarily think its too far off Calgary.

Calgary's winter is mild, definitely, compared to Eastern part of Prairie provinces like, Winnipeg or Thompson. And here is quite humid in winter compared to Alberta.

Edmonton is very nice of course, but even Calgary is recently noticed by most people outside Canada... about 10 years ago, I heard a driver from New Hampshire don't know where Calgary is. But I think Calgary is becoming more famous since people are now curious about Alberta's booming economy.

rousseau

December 26th, 2005, 07:58 AM

Check this out:

http://p.vtourist.com/793406-Calgarys_Restaurant-Chiayi.jpg

Yes, this is an "Italian" restaurant/pub in the small city of Chiayi, Taiwan called the "Calgary." I knew the owner. He had once taken a vacation in Canada, and was so impressed by Banff that he had wanted to call his "Italian" restaurant by that name. Problem was, he could only recall the name of the city they'd flown into to get there--Calgary!

Anecdote: A Chinese immigrant I know who does computer networking was transferred to Calgary from Toronto, and lasted only a year before requesting a move back to Toronto. He said he felt "very unwelcome" in the city as a Chinese person, and that other Chinese professionals he met in Calgary all had the same complaint.

Daver

December 26th, 2005, 09:12 AM

Daver

December 26th, 2005, 09:23 AM

:nuts: I don't think anyone in Edmonton is saying we have better winters than Calgary because that is obviously not true. The difference however is not as big a Calgarians make it out to be. For me it always comes back to when it's minus 20 or 30 in Edmonton it's the same in Calgary and that's the part of winter I really hate.

Look at the stat's and you will see that Calgary has just as many minus 20 days as Edmonton which both have half as many as Saskatoon, Regina, and Winnipeg.

huh!... we're talking about warm weather :bash: ... and YES, CMD UW...mentioned a "no difference"
:) happy day!

Ponza

December 26th, 2005, 05:26 PM

Sunny Calgary! QED

[/FONT]

Sunny Calgary? Don't make me choke on my breakfast. Vegas, Pheonix, Miami, LA, Palm Springs, Hawaii, Mexico, etc. These are sunny places. Even places such as Atlanta, Chicago, Memphis, Kansas City, Detroit, etc, that are not known for being sunny get more sunshine than Calgary.

Canada has nowhere that can be classified as Sunny.

Ponza

December 26th, 2005, 05:31 PM

I think it's better to group Edmonton's weather with Winterpeg and not with QED

[/FONT]

Mean temp from Dec-Feb. Winnipeg -15.0, Edmonton -9.9, Calgary -7.5.

Number of days below minus 20. Winnipeg 57, Edmonton 28, Calgary 26

Number of days below minus 30. Winnipeg 14, Edmonton 4, Calgary 5

I may not be that great at math but I am guessing Edmonton is closer to Calgary than Winnipeg.

Ponza

December 26th, 2005, 05:51 PM

:nuts:

huh!... we're talking about warm weather :bash: ... and YES, CMD UW...mentioned a "no difference"
:) happy day!

If you are looking at it from that perspective then I would agree with you. Calgary definately get's more above 10 and above 0 days than Edmonton during the winter. And as I already mentioned there is a difference in snow cover as well.

My point is that while there is a difference between Edmonton and Calgary in the winter it is not something I would call "major".

Edmonton to Penticton would be the minimum point at which I would call the difference major. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

Ponza

December 26th, 2005, 06:01 PM

I guess I should actually comment on the thread. I would say that Calgary is a city that has risen and over the past 2 decades has made a name for itself within North America. In order for Calgary to take it to the next level it will have to become more than an Oil town in a significant way.

Personally I think Alberta has a couple more decades of good growth ahead of us and then the party is over unless we do something to change our current course. We more dependant on fossil fuels than ever and are spending like drucken sailors again. Reminds me of the late 70's/early 80's. Hell, you even have the ESKS winning Grey Cups and the Oil and Flames fighting for first place.

walli

December 30th, 2005, 01:12 AM

Should have 2005 passenger statistics soon after the year roll-over [should be over 10M].

New flights from YYC include ...
- Zoom direct to Paris
- Air Canada direct to Orlando
- Air Canada direct to JFK
- Sky Service direct to Peurto Vallarta [started 11/05]

Anyone know of others coming on-line?

The airport development plan is quite significant!!!

muchbetter

December 30th, 2005, 01:20 AM

Calgary is on rise because of the rise of oil price.Laterly, Calgary suddenly became a hot topic between engineering professionals' conversation. But I only know the new Canadian idol was from Calgary(huh!). I wish I have a chance to see this booming city, Calgary one day.

ssiguy2

January 5th, 2006, 04:44 AM

furrycanuck

January 5th, 2006, 07:34 PM

Every city in Mercer's rankings is an "international" city, and on that mark Canada has five: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary.

cmd uw

January 5th, 2006, 09:58 PM

Every city in Mercer's rankings is an "international" city, and on that mark Canada has five: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary.
In the big scheme of things, Toronto just registers as an 'international' city. Don't kid yourself.....Vancouver and Montreal just barely make the cut.

canada cowboy

January 6th, 2006, 05:18 AM

^What do you use to consider TO as just "registering" as an international city?

These debates about what cities are "international" on this forum seem to have very little substance. Toronto is easily recognized on many levels, as a major arts center, and the largest business finance hub of Canada. Montreal and Vancouver are also "international" cities...the reasons are mostly obvious.

Is Calgary? Maybe not at the same level as TO, Van, and Montreal - but it is definitely making an impact, attracts enough people, hosts "international" events...and obviously hits the radar (as Furrycanuck points out) for Mercer, EIU, and GaWC.

Any other suggestions of what makes an "international" city?

snitsky

January 6th, 2006, 11:32 AM

Calgary will get there, just look at the progress being made in that city. Major international cities like Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto have had a longer time to get that head start on things.

rise_against

January 6th, 2006, 07:27 PM

I think Calgary is well on its way to becoming an international star, i'm very happy for them :)

ssiguy2

January 7th, 2006, 05:40 AM

I'm glad Calgary is starting to shine. It may at one time be able to lock horns with Vancouver as Canada's third city but never Montreal or Toronto.

furrycanuck

January 8th, 2006, 07:25 PM

In the big scheme of things, Toronto just registers as an 'international' city. Don't kid yourself.....Vancouver and Montreal just barely make the cut.

Sour, meet grapes.

If we were talking about Edmonton here I could see your point. But we're not. Deal with it.

furrycanuck

January 8th, 2006, 07:35 PM

Anecdote: A Chinese immigrant I know who does computer networking was transferred to Calgary from Toronto, and lasted only a year before requesting a move back to Toronto. He said he felt "very unwelcome" in the city as a Chinese person, and that other Chinese professionals he met in Calgary all had the same complaint.

What utter bullshit. There are 60,000 Chinese in Calgary and plenty feel perfectly welcome here.

Here's an anecdote: A Jamaican immigrant I know who does civil engineering was transferred to Calgary from Toronto, and after a year refused a an offer to move back to Toronto. He said he felt "very unwelcome" in Toronto as a Jamaican person, and that other Jamaican professionals he knew in Toronto all had the same complaint.

ryanE

January 8th, 2006, 07:43 PM

Sour, meet grapes.

If we were talking about Edmonton here I could see your point. But we're not. Deal with it.

Yup because Calgary is easily one of the most reconizible cities worldwide....right :| Lets not start this argument again..

SQ4R

January 8th, 2006, 09:48 PM

Congratulations

furrycanuck

January 9th, 2006, 02:09 AM

Yup because Calgary is easily one of the most reconizible cities worldwide....right :| Lets not start this argument again..

If you're going to lecture anybody, start with Edmonton residents like CMD who have to troll every Calgary related branch here and on SSP and find an angle to bash Calgary. They are bitter, jealous people. I can understand why.

ryanE

January 9th, 2006, 03:53 AM

K, CMD is definetly NOT a troll on these forums - and I really cant think of any times he has unfairly bashed Calgary, the fact that he doesnt agree with you doesnt make him bitter and jealous.

Anyways as long as you have Calgary on this untouchable pedastool , there are going to be people to try knock you all back to reality, so youd better get used to it...even great cities are far from perfect, to bad you dont seem to realize this

rt_0891

January 9th, 2006, 04:14 AM

If you're going to lecture anybody, start with Edmonton residents like CMD who have to troll every Calgary related branch here and on SSP and find an angle to bash Calgary. They are bitter, jealous people. I can understand why.

Though I'm pleased for Calgary's unprecedented growth and newfound prosperity, it's really dissapointing to see this new attitude of elitism/cockiness showing up in increasing numbers within its citizenry. Though the problem is not widespread yet, it really ruins the original boomtown spirit and mentality that Calgary thrives on.

♣628.finst

January 9th, 2006, 10:20 AM

Though I'm pleased for Calgary's unprecedented growth and newfound prosperity, it's really dissapointing to see this new attitude of elitism/cockiness showing up in increasing numbers within its citizenry. Though the problem is not widespread yet, it really ruins the original boomtown spirit and mentality that Calgary thrives on.

What's wrong with that? Everyone should be proud of their city, their province, and their country.

cmd uw

January 9th, 2006, 04:58 PM

Sour, meet grapes.

If we were talking about Edmonton here I could see your point. But we're not. Deal with it.

Dreaaaamer....you know that you're a dreeeeamer.

I'm not hatin' on Calgary, in fact, I think it's a fabulous city. But it's just not on a world stage as much as some of you may believe. And I think the majority of the people out there will concur.

Get over it....

rt_0891

January 9th, 2006, 07:09 PM

What's wrong with that? Everyone should be proud of their city, their province, and their country.

Cockiness/elitism is pride expressed at an untolerable level. Calgary has no need to tarnish its image that way, since it's already a well-respected city.

ssiguy2

January 9th, 2006, 10:04 PM

coldrsx

January 9th, 2006, 10:36 PM

"Albertans might want to start asking themselves why is it many more don't want to move there."

many many people really have misconceptions of alberta, its winter, its % of rednecks, etc.....and forget about the economy, the costfriendliness, and the natural playgrounds.

Daver

January 10th, 2006, 02:35 AM

Daver

January 10th, 2006, 02:37 AM

Calgary will get there, just look at the progress being made in that city. Major international cities like Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto have had a longer time to get that head start on things.

Don't forget Edmonton! Or some people around here might get ...well...upset!

Tuscani01

January 10th, 2006, 06:43 AM

The thing that gets me about Calgary and Alberta for that matter is its population growth. Considering the climate is generally ok, jobs for the taking, low income taxes, no sales tax, no debt, and in general has money up the ass it is bizzare how little its growing.
The GTA is growing at 1.5%/year and Calgary only 2.1% and Edmonton 1.3% as memory serves. Thats not exactly stellar compared to Ontario's sluggish economy.
Toronto gets most from international immigration but even still.
Montreal is growing nearly as fast as Calgary and Edmonton combined.
Albertans might want to start asking themselves why is it many more don't want to move there.

Who outside of the USA/Canada seriously thinks or is aware of Calgary? I had family over from portugal this week and they have heard of Calgary but thats it. They have seen Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver many times through pictures and in the news, but Calgary barely gets shown outside of the country.

I personally love Calgary and if i were to ever leave Ontario, i hope i would be leaving to Calgary.

Tuscani01

January 10th, 2006, 06:47 AM

In the big scheme of things, Toronto just registers as an 'international' city. Don't kid yourself.....Vancouver and Montreal just barely make the cut.

Montreal is just as international as Toronto, especially in Europe.

cmd uw

January 10th, 2006, 06:59 AM

CMD isn't a troll?....you have eyes to read with?

Care to back up your claim with any previous statements I've disclosed?

I'm waiting....

valantino

January 10th, 2006, 07:42 AM

"Everyone should be proud of their city, their province, and their country."

I don't think country really applies in this situation (well ... only when it comes to boosterism ... you know ... pre capita this, per capita that)

♣628.finst

January 10th, 2006, 11:07 AM

Who outside of the USA/Canada seriously thinks or is aware of Calgary?

I personally love Calgary and if i were to ever leave Ontario, i hope i would be leaving to Calgary.

That's true. Calgary and Edmonton's international status are some of the lowest among major cities in North America.

Anyhow I heard people in Puerto Montt, Chile said he heard Calgary--- where the cowboy lives and poorer than whole Latin America... But he knew Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are major cities and business centre of Canada, and the people are much more educated in those parts of Canada than Calgary (And Manitoba, as he said..)

Stereotype towards a city is common for most cities everywhere in our planet. And Calgary probably suffers a lot from that.

♣628.finst

January 10th, 2006, 11:14 AM

Lets not get carried away.
Calgary has transformed itself into a major NATIONAL city not international one. In that regard it doesn't even rank. Even Vancouver is not a major city on an international scale but is very well known.

Calgary's location is well-separated from Pacific West Coast and Chicago-Toronto-NYC-Boston strip. For non-Canadians, it seems as isolated as New Zealand or Western Australia

But Calgary is booming for sure, and very dependent on rising oil price, that's true but Calgary does improve in other industries.

cmd uw

January 10th, 2006, 05:13 PM

Calgary's location is well-separated from Pacific West Coast and Chicago-Toronto-NYC-Boston strip. For non-Canadians, it seems as isolated as New Zealand or Western Australia

But Calgary is booming for sure, and very dependent on rising oil price, that's true but Calgary does improve in other industries.
/\ and this is my point. Phoenix is also a booming city and has been for a long time, however, how many people know or even heard of Phoenix on the international level? Not many. Same can be said about some cities in India and China that are experiencing massive economic and population booms.

walli

January 11th, 2006, 12:32 AM

Calgary International Airport Passenger Statistics are out for November.

For the first 11 months, 9,290,778 passengers, a gain of 10.67%. Appying the same gain over 2004 December would give a 2005 total of over 10.15M passengers [9290778 + 778999*1.1067].

For comparison, Edmonton International Airport Passenger Statistics are also out for November.

For the first 11 months, 4,114,156 passengers, a gain of 9.609%. Appying the same gain over 2004 December would give a 2005 total of 4.53M passengers [4114156 + 378790*1.09609].

The latest on SSP is that there is a new hotel coming up at the Edmonton Airport. I'm not sure for what, but it got me thinking about Calgary. I'm wondering if all the park & jet land North of the Calgary Airport can be used better? I'm thinking that land along Airport Trail is really prime, and if they can find a better place for the parking (perhaps multi-story with a smaller footprint?) it could be a good location for hotel / conference type facilities. There has been so much growth in the Northern Hills areas and there is the Aurora business park coming up (to which Airport Trail will extend), as well as further development along Deerfoot. All that needs to be serviced. I also think the road leading to the airport should be inviting and lively.

cmd uw

January 11th, 2006, 07:07 AM

ssiguy2

January 11th, 2006, 06:18 PM

Any new stats for Calgary transit?

walli

January 11th, 2006, 07:17 PM

Calgary rushing to keep pace - Growth outstrips labour, space and services

Don Braid, Calgary Herald
Published: Wednesday, January 11, 2006
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/columnists/story.html?id=ae4873da-47d0-4520-9570-3b055fdc281e

EXCERPT ONLY:

The growth numbers and projections are so overwhelming, they make you wonder what this city will look like in 10 years. I'm not sure we'd even recognize the Calgary of 2016 if we could see it today.

- $3.6-billion worth of construction permits were issued last year, not much less than the City of Toronto, which has several times our population.

- Within the city limits, fully $11-billion worth of construction is at some stage of planning, application or building.

- Calgary has had the highest national growth rate in population, gross domestic product and jobs for several years running.

- We also have the largest growth in people arriving from both other countries and other provinces. In 2004, overall net migration to Calgary grew by 22.3 per cent.

- Calgarians have the highest personal income per capita, at $40,021, through 2004, a trend that certainly won't have changed in 2005. Ottawa, with its big government salaries, has fallen behind by $4,000.

But the real challenge doesn't lie in what we have -- it comes from what, and who, we do not have.

Mostly we don't have enough skilled workers at all levels, from the technical to the medical.

Douglas said a survey of chamber members shows 42 per cent believe the negative impact on their business is significant. Another 33 per cent report some impact.

"This labour shortage crosses all sectors -- energy, retail, manufacturing, transportation, tourism, health care, education," Douglas said.

She backs the Alberta government's request to Ottawa for 24,000 skilled immigrants this year, a 50 per cent jump from earlier years.

But even so, Douglas said, immigration levels need to rise even more sharply in future.

One fact among all these superlatives was truly stunning:

If every older Albertan could be pulled out of retirement and sent back to work; if every possible worker is on the job every day; if Alberta is granted its request for more immigrants; the province will still be 100,000 workers short in 10 years.

walli

January 11th, 2006, 07:38 PM

In regards to your inquiry about a new hotel, well, the Delta Airport is relatively new and as far as I know, it accommodates YYC passengers very well.

Delta Airport is a nice hotel, and might be sufficient to service YYC passengers, however, it is not big enough to service the growing area I indicated. Nor does it have much in conference facilities and the like. What are the closest hotels to service the growing Northern Hills communities, the freeport and aurora business parks, etcetera?

If we really want to create the concept of mini-downtowns / concentrations away from the core, we need to build infrastructure and services to allow for it. You'll note that the transportation plan identifies a significant employment concentration North and West of the Airport:
http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/planning/pdf/tranplan_sec_2_landuse.pdf

This location is one of the "mini-downtowns" mentioned in the document.

cmd uw

January 11th, 2006, 10:48 PM

Delta Airport is a nice hotel, and might be sufficient to service YYC passengers, however, it is not big enough to service the growing area I indicated. Nor does it have much in conference facilities and the like. What are the closest hotels to service the growing Northern Hills communities, the freeport and aurora business parks, etcetera?

If we really want to create the concept of mini-downtowns / concentrations away from the core, we need to build infrastructure and services to allow for it. You'll note that the transportation plan identifies a significant employment concentration North and West of the Airport:
http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/planning/pdf/tranplan_sec_2_landuse.pdf

This location is one of the "mini-downtowns" mentioned in the document.
/\ the area north of the airport is planned to accommodate office/business industrial type of developments. With this, you'll see land designated for ancillary or supporting services such as retail commercial and hotels. Basically, the lands will be developed similar to those south of the airport and areas adjacent to airports in other major cities.

walli

January 11th, 2006, 10:52 PM

^^ Thanks. That makes sense, and maps to what I was thinking also (via a specific example).

cmd uw

January 12th, 2006, 12:52 AM

^^ Thanks. That makes sense, and maps to what I was thinking also (via a specific example).
Exactly, the maps you linked where from the MDP (Municipal Development Plan), which is a statutory document that sets the stage for growth and development within Calgary. The next steps would be the adoption of an Area Structure Plan, which would provide more finite details (eg. commercial, industrial, office land uses, transportation and circulation, utility and infrastructure concepts, etc).

ssiguy2

January 13th, 2006, 04:36 AM

canada cowboy

January 13th, 2006, 05:00 AM

shreddog

January 13th, 2006, 05:41 AM

Funny, all that wealth in Alberta and even with the recent increase in minimum wage it is still the lowest east of NB. Pretty pathetic.
I think that is part of the issue as to why many more don't head to Alberta.
Its not a very socially progressive place and unlike Que/BC/ON does not have a strong civicly minded society.
I don't mean, at all, that Albertans aren't generous people but they are much more individualistic than most Canadians. That helps explain the low level of unionization and labour laws and high support of privatization and personal responsibility. Even its views in regard to gun control.............keep the government out of my life.

It is, to use the old analogy, Canada's Texas. PLEASE do not think I beleive it is anywhere near the conservativism as Texas but there is a mild connection.
Its conservative religious views are noticable but more importantly play an important role in their politics. Quebec, NFLD, and Ont where quite religiously oppressed {especially Quebec and NFLD Catholism} but have become nearly irrelevant in politics. In Alberta, however, like much of the US southern states, religion is becoming even MORE influential. Again, however, not near to the same extent.

All provinces in this country are unique and Alberta and Albertans have a lot to be proud of but they must also acknowledge that much of those attitudes and the societal values with them turn many Canadians off.
I think that is part of the problem with Alberta not being able to attract more inter-provincial migration and when people move to a place JUST for a good paying job they are also just as likely to want to move when the work runs out as opposed to sticking around for the long haul.
Alberta and Calgary will continue its impressive growth for the long haul this time and the only thing holding their economy back is Alberta itself.
Wow! Where to begin??

Okay, how's this ... 2/3 thirds of Albertans live in cities with over 1 million people. In those cities you will find urbanites who are very similar to those living in Canada's other major cities. Last time I saw, Calgarians weren't carrying six-shooters in their belts on Stephen Ave mall nor were there any hangins in Churchill square. Funny thing, in the past 5 years I have seen way more horses in DT Toronto than in Calgary (since TO's police use them more often). Also, how do you come up with saying that Albertans aren't civicly minded???? In Calgary I have found way more interest in how the city is run and grown then ever in my time in Toronto (BTW, this is not a slag against the GTA here). Please provide examples as to how Vancouver, Mtrl or To are more civicly minded than Calgary!

As for religion ... you do know that BC as the lowest percentage of residents who claim to follow organized religion, right? Of course it is closely followed by Alberta, then the other 8 provinces. You also know that the fundamental Christian movement is strongest in Ontario (look into where most of them have their HQ's - it's the 905!!), right? How then does that make Alberta the bible belt??

As for rural Albertans, you will find that they are very similiar to rural Ontarions/etc when it comes to their rural issues (like gun control, etc). It's the rural Albertan who is up in arms over having to register their guns. Urban Albertans are only pissed that it's cost over a Billion of our dollars to build a useless system.

BTW I really do believe it's justthe media loves to play up the Albertan stereotype; When some farmers in Hanna are pissed about the gun registry, it makes front page news, but when a rural Onatrio Liberal MP sends out a Christmas card showing his entire family and their guns (Pat O'brien, Christmas 2004) it's now where to be seen.

Finally, if you can provide some real evidence to support your claims, it would be interesting. Since I grew up in Ontario (Toronto, T Bay and Ottawa) and then moved here, you'd think I would have seen this that you talk off. Funnily enough, I've yet to see anything that would indicate that urban Alberta is that different. Can't really speak to the rural parts though since I didn't grow up in rural Ontario.

ssiguy2

January 13th, 2006, 07:49 AM

I grew up in Ontario.......London so I know the urban thing.
Sorry, I did mean WEST of NB. But that helps illistrate my point. In the more progressive provinces minimum wage is considered a right and is therefore higher while in Alberta its a race to the bottom because you have "choice".
There aare pockets of religious right wing areas all across the country. I didn't say there wasn't. What I said is that in Alberta they have a strong political connection and influence like no other area in the country.
About Alberta workers coming from the other parts of the nation. Lets face it a good chunk would move right over to BC if they could get the same paying job.

Alberta gets a bad rap across the nation and I think much of it is unfair but at the same time stereotypes don't come from nowhere. Everyone I live with are from Alberta and all say that the social conservatism can be rather overwhelming. Some lived in the country and Calgary.

Personally I quite like Calgary. Very clean, pleasant, low crime, prosperous city with good transit and some nice interesting urban districts.....and I love the Zoo.
At the same time the reality is that despite Calgary's truly incredible prosperity and Alberta very low taxes its not getting that many people flying into it.
A growth rate of 2.1% is solid but not fantastic. Its still only marginally higher than Toronto's and Vancouver is growing faster than Edmonton despite its rain, higher taxes, and most of all EXTREMELY high cost of housing.

Albertans have to start looking inward and try to fix this as does rural Canada. Canadians are a progressive lot and most view Alberta as an intolerant place. I personally don't think that is generally true but much of it is.
Proff is in the pudding. In this election the Conservatives will take over the two Edmonton seats so that every single one of Alberta's seats will go Conservative. Not even one urban seat will go to any marginally progressive party.

josh white

January 13th, 2006, 08:22 PM

Very well said Shreddog and Canada Cowboy.

Having lived in Ontario (Kingston and Toronto) for 4 of the last 5 years I have yet to see or experience any evidence that Ontarians are more tolerant, progressive or civically engaged in any respect. SSIGUY2, I think a lot of the points you make about Alberta are largely based on image and reputation and not the reality of the place that we who live in the province know and experience everyday.

I hear all the time living here (Ontario) the perception of Alberta as "texas-lite" or "texas-north" or Canada's bible belt, or a white-wash non diverse, entirely conservative and socially intolerant place. I just shake my head at their ignorance. Because when presenting them with the facts about Alberta, they cannot rebutt, other than to say they simply do not believe me. For example, Alberta's rate of religious practice as pointed out, or Calgary's ethinic diversity rates (being higher than Montreal).

As far as social issues such as Gay Marriage, support for gay marriage was only marginally lower in Alberta than Ontario, but the more interesting numbers were reflected in how many people opposed gay marriage. Numbers of opposition in Albtera were relatively low, and a high proportion had no opinion or did not care. While there are a small number that may oppose such a measure (as in all provinces) and there are some people strongly in favour, most Albertans are largely ambivalent toward such issues.

walli

January 14th, 2006, 01:40 AM

Calgary Economy Roars - 2005 Record Year for Building Permits
January 10, 2006
http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_104_0_0_35/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Municipal+Government/Office+of+the+Mayor/Mayors+Photo+Gallery/January+2006+Gallery/Building+Permit+Press+Conference.htm

2005 was a banner year for building permits in Calgary, with construction activity values hitting the unprecedented $3.6 Billion mark – up 47% over 2004.

These impressive figures were released in an economic briefing session held today by Mayor Dave Bronconnier, Heather Douglas, President and CEO of the Calgary Chamber of Commerce and Bruce Graham, President and CEO of Calgary Economic Development.

Mayor Bronconnier noted "Calgary's economy exceeded all expectations – we are the economic heart of Alberta, and a growing force in the national economy."

According to Bruce Graham of Calgary Economic Development the City's economic "fundamentals" are very healthy, with growth driven by a variety of sectors. Graham commented, "Calgary has been leading the nation in GDP and employment growth for the last 10 years and we expect will continue to lead the country for the next five. High commodity prices have brought renewed attention to Calgary as an energy centre, but growth has also been very strong in construction, logistics and business and financial services."

Heather Douglas from the Calgary Chamber of Commerce stated Calgary's business community is "bullish" and "optimistic. Ms. Douglas stated, "This unprecedented growth impacts all sectors, contributes to Calgary's further diversification and positions this city as an economic powerhouse within the global economy. Calgary is the most dynamic city on this continent with a projected growth rate of seven percent in 2006 and on-going robust growth through 2010."

The presenters discussed some of the challenges associated with strong growth, and strategies for addressing them. Bronconnier pointed out that over the last decade Calgary's population has increased, on average, by more than 20,000 people per year, and that municipal funding is strained to keep up with the demand for infrastructure and services.

He stated, "The majority of municipal services are funded from one-half of the property tax base – the other half goes to the Province. That regime is not sustainable. We need the other orders of government to recognize the need to invest in Calgary's prosperity for the good of the province and the country." Bronconnier pointed to the Provincial government vacating property taxes and revenue sharing with other governments as the means to achieve municipal sustainability.

Alberta Cities Comparison [Calgary number more than 50% greater than Edmonton]
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/mayor/alberta_construction_comparison_2005.pdf

Canadian Cities Comparison [Calgary ranking a close second to Toronto, which is five times the size]
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/mayor/canadian_construction_comparison_2005.pdf

Building Permit Values 2001 - 2005 [Huge jump in 2005]
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/mayor/building_permit_values_2001_2005.pdf

2005 Building Permit Approvals over $10 million
http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/mayor/building_permit_approvals.pdf

:nocrook: :cheer: :righton:

ssiguy2

January 14th, 2006, 05:00 AM

Daver

January 14th, 2006, 08:07 AM

^
Calgary is doing extremly well but I think your analogy to Toronto is misplaced.
The city of Calgary has 960k and the city of Toronto has 2.6. 2 and half times the population not 6.
Don't however get me wrong, Calgary's numbers are very impressive.

BTW........ when comparing those city stats where the hell was Montreal?????

Agreed! The City of Toronto should be focussed here, at 2.6 million. Development permits still show Calgary is very impressive in comparision. I'm thinking Calgary is definately leading the nation per capita development.

walli

January 15th, 2006, 12:24 AM

Calgary is doing extremly well but I think your analogy to Toronto is misplaced.
The city of Calgary has 960k and the city of Toronto has 2.6. 2 and half times the population not 6.

Yeah whatever ... I think the point of my post came through.

I guess I could be picky with your note also by saying I said five times, not six, and that it was a comparison not an analogy. Analogy implies similarity, yet I was suggesting the development to population ratio was much higher in Calgary (subsequent post also highlights the same).

KGB

January 15th, 2006, 02:05 AM

Why is it I'm always seeing western cities (especially Calgaey) always trying to pump themselves up by making comparisons to Toronto all the time? And the wonky ways they do it....percentages, percapitas, rates, particular years, simple graphs without explanations, etc.

Truth is, there is no comparison...Toronto just has so much more development in every catagory, it's silly to trot out misleading figures to try and prove otherwise. A single $5 billion airport expansion all by itself is more than Calgary...$biilion cultural building spree...UofT is winding down it's own $billion building spree...ditto other institutions...$17 billion Portlands project starting...recent $billion subway, and many other infastructure projects....the list is never ending...and is not just some big blip in one year...it's every year in Toronto. There are 45,000 new homes sold every year. Cityplace alone is over $1.5 billion...many individual condo buildings in the $100 million to $400 million range.

The 4-year ( 2001 - 2004 ) total in building permit values in the GTA are...

Residential and Non-residential = $43 billion. And I'm pretty sure that's just the private sector.

KGB

cardio

January 15th, 2006, 06:57 AM

Why would any comparison of western cities (especially Calgary) to Toronto be of any concern to you??!!

Cardio

Boris550

January 15th, 2006, 08:54 AM

^ Because KGB is an insecure Torontonian. He is one of those people who gives Toronto a bad reputation by assuming that Toronto is untouchable and sacred. To him any comparison between Toronto's growth and that of smaller cities is blasphemy. In fact Calgary's growth and prosperity irritates him so much that he made the effort to come into a Western Canadian forum and troll a bit to make his point. That is clear enough. LOL

The whole point of his post was to say "hahaha, yoo r small3r than us!!1!" You will notice that he belittles our very normal Calgarian optimism by claiming that we are attempting to "pump ourselves up." LOL

KGB, the whole point of these "percentages, percapitas, rates" are to show that Calgary is getting it's fair share of development, not to say we are getting as much as Toronto. We really couldn't care less. If you can't accept that then you don't have to post here. LOL

DISCLAIMER: Message not meant to offend non-offensive Torontonians who do not hold offensive views about other cities and go into regional forums in order to pick a fight and thus offend people in those forums.

Rhino

January 15th, 2006, 02:38 PM

I still see Toronto as beeing a meca of some sorts when it comes to dovelopment but I know that We in the west are catching up , well I guess we will never catch up but we are starting ( last 5 years ) to pull our own .

rise_against

January 15th, 2006, 06:13 PM

I think its cool that all parts of Canada are building great cities. It only can make Canada better. I think everyone knows that Toronto has more projects, but Calgary is still very impressive for its size.

ssiguy2

January 15th, 2006, 07:30 PM

KGB........
Is the $17billion Portlands REALLY starting or has it become another BA/Waterfront. You know, never quite dead but never quit going either.
Also, What billion$ subway??? The Spadina line isn't even close to construction as far as I know {which I personally think is a good thing}.
Please clarify.

walli

January 16th, 2006, 01:24 AM

Some time ago, in a discussion about where a new football / atheletic stadium could be built in Calgary, someone suggested the railyards North of Victoria Park. In reviewing the land in the area, the site of the Victoria Park transit garage also stood out. In looking at the transit development plan, re-locating the Victoria Park transit garage is actually budgetted for 2008! I was wondering if anyone knew what the city is actually planning for that very prime site after the move? Very prime particularly given the Stampede's plans!

Here is a link to an arial ... perhaps some of the un-used railyard land could also be incorporated into whatever is being planned.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=calgary,+ab&btnG=Search&ll=51.04273,-114.042978&spn=0.002847,0.010815&t=h

KGB

January 16th, 2006, 01:37 AM

"Why would any comparison of western cities (especially Calgary) to Toronto be of any concern to you??!! "

Why does anything concern anyone? The question makes no sense.

"Because KGB is an insecure Torontonian. He is one of those people who gives Toronto a bad reputation by assuming that Toronto is untouchable and sacred. To him any comparison between Toronto's growth and that of smaller cities is blasphemy. In fact Calgary's growth and prosperity irritates him so much that he made the effort to come into a Western Canadian forum and troll a bit to make his point. That is clear enough. LOL The whole point of his post was to say "hahaha, yoo r small3r than us!!1!" You will notice that he belittles our very normal Calgarian optimism by claiming that we are attempting to "pump ourselves up. LOL"

Someone sounds insecure...and it doesn't look like it's me based on that reply...you can call me a child molester too if it turns your crank...doesn't make anything you say true unfortunetely (but it does make you calling me a troll somewhat ironic).

No, I didn't comment about it because I'm insecure...trying to give Toronto "a bad name" (that excuse is always good for a laugh)...promoting an "untouchable" status...equating anything to blasphamy...or jealousy. The point was to interject some common sense where it seemed to have lost it's way....that article was beyond biased and misleading.

If you are so secure, then a little sober debate shouldn't bother you so much as to launch such a scathing attack.

"KGB........Is the $17billion Portlands REALLY starting "

Yes...it REALLY is.

"Also, What billion$ subway??? The Spadina line isn't even close to construction as far as I know {which I personally think is a good thing}.Please clarify."

You'll notice I said a "recent" subway...refering to the Sheppard subway line.

KGB

walli

January 16th, 2006, 01:52 AM

"Also, What billion$ subway?"

You'll notice I said a "recent" subway...refering to the Sheppard subway line.

Now I know why you call your self "KGB" ... you live in the past!! :hahaha:

The Sheppard line's construction started in 1998, which means its development permits were booked some time before then. The discussion started with the fact that permit bookings in Calgary for 2005 were almost equal to those in Toronto (a much larger city) in the same year. We're not talking about the last decade! Next you'll bring up the CN Tower!

Rhino

January 16th, 2006, 02:56 AM

cn tower :hahaha:

KGB

January 16th, 2006, 05:29 AM

"The discussion started with the fact that permit bookings in Calgary for 2005 were almost equal to those in Toronto (a much larger city) in the same year. We're not talking about the last decade! "

Of course you wouldn't want to talk about it...it might put things into perspective, and destroy that cherry-picking fantasy world where Calgary is "an economic powerhouse within the global economy" and "the most dynamic city on this continent"

I mean, it's great that Calgary had a boom year, but we don't base things on such isolated things.

KGB

KGB

January 16th, 2006, 05:48 AM

And I don't know what numbers they are using for 2005, as the GTA's total value of construction from Jan-Sept was almost $9 billion, so with an average of $1 billion per month, the 2005 total would be around $12 billion.

KGB

Goku

January 16th, 2006, 05:52 AM

my friend got a job in Calgary, he is moving there this summer, he is excitied about it. I will sure tell him to look at this site to get more info on Calgary.

valantino

January 16th, 2006, 06:44 AM

"The discussion started with the fact that permit bookings in Calgary for 2005 were almost equal to those in Toronto (a much larger city) in the same year. "

one year is pretty useless to use as a gauge and/or for comparative purposes

not to mention the cost of construction is not equal between the cities (overall, more expensive in Calgary)

ssiguy2

January 16th, 2006, 06:45 AM

Calgary is a pleasant city but I must admit I find it a tad sterile as is Edmonton and even Vancouver.
Depending on where you come from Calgary would be a nice place to transfer to.
I wouldn't be upset about it. I'd rather live in Calgary than Vancouver any day of the week. I find Calgary more down to earth and the people less pretenious.
It also a MUCH cleaner and safer city.
Depends on what you like. I'll love London. Very pretty city and has a real cozyness about it.

neilio

January 16th, 2006, 06:17 PM

cmd uw

January 16th, 2006, 06:27 PM

neilio is right. I've had good discussions with KGB and he is NOT a troll.

He provides constructive criticism and backs his arguments with facts and stats.

Don't front on him is what I'm basically saying.

walli

January 16th, 2006, 06:39 PM

^^ Him bringing up subway line construction (which started in 1998 and ended four years ago) was a little bit off, you have to admit.

Interesting comment from Valentino regarding cost of construction being higher in Calgary. Never thought about that. Does that not actually bolster the opinion that Calgary is a "per capita" hotter market than Toronto? Of course there is the vacancy rates and the unemployment figures also.

furrycanuck

January 16th, 2006, 07:20 PM

my friend got a job in Calgary, he is moving there this summer, he is excitied about it. I will sure tell him to look at this site to get more info on Calgary.

Please refer your friend to skyscraperpage.com instead. There is MUCH more Calgary discussion there.

KGB

January 16th, 2006, 08:11 PM

"Him bringing up subway line construction (which started in 1998 and ended four years ago) was a little bit off, you have to admit."

Well, if my entire arguement was based on the Sheppard subway, rather than being nothing more than one example in a long line of mega projects that have been taking place in Toronto (within the 5-year period mentioned on the graphs supplied) as context for my point, then your arguement might have some legs...but it doesn't. This further exemplifies my contention that cherry-picking and taking things out of context for the purposes of over-stating a city's importance is what I am disagreeing with here...not trying to downplay anything that is realistically happening in Calgary. This is not good for any city (including Toronto, which I will call out just as fast as any other city when I think it's warranted).

"Calgary is a "per capita" hotter market than Toronto"

You see, that may sound like something to brag about, when in fact a percapita measurement of this kind has no real value at all, and is nothing more than some kind of hollow imaginary status symbol.

KGB

Rhino

January 16th, 2006, 08:34 PM

Ive never liked the Per capita thing . If I ive in a villiage of 12 people and 4 sell there homes thats like 33% ! But really it doesnt mean shit I guess you could say .

All in all I just dont like Per Capita things.

valantino

January 16th, 2006, 09:56 PM

"Does that not actually bolster the opinion that Calgary is a "per capita" hotter market than Toronto?

LOL - per capita is pretty irrelevalant in the question you ask

Calgary's economy of course is "hotter" than Torontos - It's near the point where rapid inflation is eminent which is not exactly a good thing for a city which relies on lower costs to attract outside corporations in order to diversify its "one cow" economy

valantino

January 16th, 2006, 10:07 PM

LOL, I'd rather pay 280 to 350 per square foot for a new condo in downtown Toronto to live in than 250 to 350 per square foot in downtown Calgary

walli

January 17th, 2006, 01:22 AM

"KGB........Is the $17billion Portlands REALLY starting "

Yes...it REALLY is.

Sat, January 14, 2006
The Way We Were column
By MIKE FILEY

So you think the idea of revitalizing Toronto's waterfront is new. No siree!

In fact, it was on this day in 1965 that one of the most elaborate plans ever conceived was presented to city officials by the Waterfront Technical Committee.

Developed after four years of consultation and planning, the committee's proposals, if implemented, would cost $50 million and take at least 25 years to complete.

Major features of the spectacular plan would see the elimination of the present island airport and the construction of a jetport with 2,000-metre runways for use by intercity jetliners, a new high-rise city of apartment towers to be located at the foot of Bathurst St. (complete with a connection to the proposed extension of Hwy. 400 south of Hwy. 401), miles of beaches and parks along the water's edge from Mississauga to Ajax including an Olympic Village where it was hoped the 1976 Olympic games would be staged.

snoopy

January 17th, 2006, 02:00 AM

i don't get why posting half of an article about Toronto's past waterfront proposals talking about the island airport has anything to do with the portland's revitalization or the many current proposals/projects presently

cmd uw

January 17th, 2006, 02:22 AM

KGB

January 17th, 2006, 06:23 AM

Well, Toronto's downtown waterfront has been an ongoing development of some kind for 200 years.

2006 will see....

* Remediation of East Bayfront and West Don Lands
* Ground Breaking for the Filmport Studios in the Portlands
* Ground Breaking for Phase One of the West Don Lands community
* Completion of HtO Park in Harbourfront, the unique urban beach
* Completion of the Western Beaches watercourse, site of the 2006 International Dragon Boat Championships
* Construction of the Soccer Stadium at Exhibition Place
* Completion of the Princes' Gates Revitalization project
* Construction of the continuous Central Waterfront Trail
* Completion of the John Quay Waterfront Promenade at Harbourfront Centre

There are simply too many brownfield/greyfield projects to keep track of....not to mention "Harbourfront", which is nearing completion, which is why the East Bayfront is the next in line.

KGB

Daver

January 17th, 2006, 06:39 AM

zonie

January 17th, 2006, 07:07 AM

Come on, Toronto! "Putting things into perspective" is essentially the same thing, only in a negative way, as "pumping themselves up". And no matter how you spin it, it looks like a defence mechanism. Just let Calgary have some fun.

walli

January 17th, 2006, 11:49 PM

Calgary International Airport Passenger Statistics are out for November.

For the first 11 months, 9,290,778 passengers, a gain of 10.67%. Appying the same gain over 2004 December would give a 2005 total of over 10.15M passengers [9290778 + 778999*1.1067].

http://www.yyc.com/fts/getfile.cfm?FID=6755

Excerpts:
"Calgary, AB. – Passenger volumes at Calgary International Airport reached an all-time high with Canada’s fourth busiest airport surpassing 10 million annual passengers in 2005.

Statistics reported by the airlines reflect growth in all sectors for a total of 10.2 million passengers, equating to an increase of 10.7 percent, or one million more passengers than 2004. The sector with the largest percentage increase was flights to or from the United States with an increase of over 14 percent."

"Facility development at Calgary International Airport has kept pace with growth through phased, incremental expansion of airfield and terminal facilities. The air terminal facility is now double in size from 1992 and there have been three major expansions to cargo aircraft handling facilities. Total capital investment by the Airport Authority, since assuming responsibility for Calgary International Airport from the Government of Canada in 1992, exceeds $800 million. The Authority will invest an additional $50 million in capital improvements in 2006."

Rhino

January 18th, 2006, 01:43 AM

Im so happy For Calgary and all the West ... I think ( even though Im not in Eather , I was speaking to the Mod about it though ) I will start a post for Calagary and edmonton and hope that some one will sticky it because IF Victoria has one these two cities should as well .

ssiguy2

January 18th, 2006, 04:30 AM

Boris550

January 18th, 2006, 04:39 AM

Lets not make this thing into a total CalgaryvsToronto bitch session.

BTW, I know that skyscraperpage has much better conversations re Canadian cities but I can't seem to register with my regular yahoo or hotmail addresses.
Any idea why?

SSP will not accept those. It WILL accept an ISP address though (ex: Telus or Shaw...though I had to contact a moderator for my Shaw address)

ssiguy2

January 18th, 2006, 06:20 PM

^thanks guy

Kinda stupid of SSP, wonder what the rational is?

furrycanuck

January 18th, 2006, 09:18 PM

the accepted mine- but it's a yahoo.ca address.

furrycanuck

January 18th, 2006, 09:19 PM

dbl post, sorry

canada cowboy

January 19th, 2006, 06:58 AM

Looks like all industries are "booming"...manufacturing, transportation and logistics...oh, and energy. From the National Post..

Skilled trades wanted in Calgary

Companies look overseas to fill positions

Derek Sankey, CanWest News Service
Published: Wednesday, January 18, 2006
CALGARY - Mark Hames does not know exactly where he is going to find the workers to fuel his construction company's growth, but he knows if you are a skilled construction trades worker, you have a job offer in Calgary.

"The well is getting pretty dry," says Mr. Hames, vice-president of construction services for CANA Construction Ltd.

"Most of the resources are getting totally exhausted."

Only a few weeks into the year and most contractors are fully booked to the end of 2006, from carpenters to pipe fitters to electricians and everything in between.

"Normally, everybody is pretty hungry for work in the first quarter," Mr. Hames says.

"People are looking overseas now for tradesmen and there's just a huge amount of competition across Western Canada for qualified people."

In the energy industry, the story is much the same. With several billion-dollar oilsands projects on the books, construction is at a record high as companies scramble to find workers.

"Students these days are getting very sophisticated and they know who is paying the big dollars, [so] they target specific programs," says Duke Anderson, dean of the MacPhail School of Energy at the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology.

The transportation and logistics industry also is booming in Calgary, which has become a hub for the Western provinces and the United States. It's a typically blue-collar industry where higher levels of education are required as operational systems become more sophisticated.

The inclusion of GPS, an emphasis on just-in-time delivery and high-tech warehousing delivery systems are giving rise to new and changing job descriptions in the industry.

The manufacturing sector, which is booming in Calgary despite modest growth across the country, is eager to hire more skilled workers, such as millwrights and related trades.

Nowhere is the demand for skilled talent higher than in the energy sector. Mostly needed in the oilsands developments, there are plenty of opportunities for workers who don't mind remote locations to earn increasingly high wages.

Pius Rolheiser, a spokesman for Imperial Oil Ltd., says the oil and gas companies operating in northern Alberta will be largely constrained only by the lack of qualified workers, representing excellent career opportunities for those who wish to seek them out.

"As with other operators ... the shortage of skilled workers is certainly an issue that affects and concerns everyone," he says.

The demand for workers in energy and construction is so high it has caused a number of companies to look overseas to fill the postions.

Mr. Hames notes that some construction firms are targeting Germany and the United Kingdom to secure additional labour requirements.

"It is frustrating," he says. "We've got clients and you don't like turning down work, but you have to be realistic."

rousseau

January 22nd, 2006, 05:01 AM

canada cowboy

January 22nd, 2006, 07:18 PM

ok - KGB is entitled to his opinions - which from a Toronto perspective are usually quite valuable...I think we should drop this, instead of adding fuel to it. We don't need to debate Toronto's growth and projects in this thread.

KGB - Toronto has been the stalwart Canadian benchmark for sometime, and every other city will no doubt compare to its consistent growth, scale and strength. Every other Canadian city can at the very least strive to reach for Toronto's scale.

As you seem to have some very good ideas, if the typical "per capita" and "percentage" measurements aren't accurate, simply suggest other ways that these cities should measure their growth.

rise_against

January 22nd, 2006, 07:30 PM

^^well said!

Boris550

January 22nd, 2006, 07:37 PM

I agree, let's bury the argument. I will not apologize for my comments, but I do concede that KGB has stood up for Canada consistently and I have appreciated many of his comments in other threads.

Anyways, let's get this thread going once again:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
S.W. residents vent fury over ring road deal
Erskine promises to deliver message to city council

Tarina White, Calgary Herald
Published: Sunday, January 22, 2006

Feelings of betrayal, frustration and disappointment spilled over late Saturday as southwest residents gathered to discuss the contentious ring road connector.

Hundreds of residents from the affected areas crammed the Cedarbrae community centre, leaving standing room only, as they heard officials confirm a high-traffic volume connector will in fact go through their area.

"I'm incensed. I'm absolutely outraged," said Oakridge resident Andrea Trochim, adding the community had plenty of consultation early on but now, she says, no one is listening.

"I was quite upset to hear the words, 'It's a done deal,' " said Martin Breton.

"I think we got lied to, that we were deliberately not told," added Carl Ellingsen.

Ward 11 Ald. Barry Erskine held the public meeting to explain why residents must accept a road that will connect to the connector at 90th Avenue S.W., reaffirming that it essentially will go ahead.

But Erskine did promise to battle for residents and leave Southland Drive alone for now, adding residents may have to consider it at some point in the future.

"We'll do the best fight we have for this issue," he said Saturday.

Erskine's views on the issue changed last week when he found out there's a legal requirement to have at least one connector in the area.

An agreement between the Tsuu T'ina Nation and the province calls for connections to the ring road at five locations, including one at Southland Drive or 90th Avenue S.W.

Residents said they weren't informed of the clause in the provincial-native legal agreement signed last March. Erskine said city officials didn't make him and the communities fully aware of this until last week.

Yet city transportation planners have said all along that there should be connections at both 90th Avenue and Southland Drive to avoid traffic chaos in the future.

Residents of Cedarbrae, Braeside, Oakridge, Palliser, Pump Hill and Bayview had asked for a direct link -- with no access -- to the southwest portion of the ring road because they were worried the proposed development would increase traffic in their neighbourhoods.

City council will vote on the different options for connectors on Monday. At least five council members have already said it's necessary to go ahead and ask the province to secure the land needed for both roadways.

But Erskine and another alderman, Dale Hodges, said the city should only approve the 90th Avenue option.

neilio

January 22nd, 2006, 07:39 PM

I agree lets drop it.....so how about that Encana Tower eh? :) :) :)

Boris550

January 22nd, 2006, 07:41 PM

Rumour has it that we should be seeing a design sometime in March.

neilio

January 22nd, 2006, 08:30 PM

i hope its a true rumour! i cat wait to see what its going to look like.

cmd uw

January 22nd, 2006, 08:52 PM

KGB

January 23rd, 2006, 09:37 PM

"if the typical "per capita" and "percentage" measurements aren't accurate, simply suggest other ways that these cities should measure their growth."

Well, there's nothing wrong with things like growth percentages...just when you use them to make comparisons to other cities. A growth percentage is only a comparison of yourself from a previous time period. Comparing growth percentages between different cities has no value, as it does not take into consideration....previous growth numbers, actual figures, or pre-existing situations. It also represents a small period of time, which may not be an accurate pattern to make long term predictions.

For instance, Calgary could have a 100% growth rate in condo sales this year over last, and Toronto could have a 10% decrease in condo sales this year over last. But because of a record growth rate the previous year and the actual numbers incolved in Toronto, this would not suggest a less favourable growth in Toronto, despite growth percentages seemingly suggesting so.

The same for manufacturing growth...Toronto already commands such an enormous lead in existing manufacturing that any growth rate in that sector in Calgary would not put it in any superior position.

KGB

walli

January 23rd, 2006, 09:49 PM

Open house presentation regarding annex:
http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU...resentation.pdf

Negotiation map:
http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU...tiation_map.pdf

The City of Calgary wants all the way up to the Balzac intersection. That is exactly half way to Airdrie from the current city limit. This map also shows perspective as to distance of this new mall from Stoney trail.

There is a much larger annex planned for the E/SE almost right up to Chestemere Lake, and a small one in the NW also. Wow - Cranston is already so far from the core ... now there will be areas to the East of Cranston!

According to the presentation, the timeline shows January 2007 (11.5 months from now) as when the agreed to change will be implemented.

walli

January 24th, 2006, 12:32 AM

Want a Calgary office? Just hope a closet will do
Rent is pushing up to $40 a square foot
By ELIZABETH CHURCH
Wednesday, January 18, 2006 Page B1
REAL ESTATE REPORTER
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20060118/ROFFICE18/TPBusiness/Canadian

Calgary is quickly becoming the most expensive city in the country for renting prime office space, taking the spot long held by Toronto's Bay Street towers.

The breakneck pace of growth in the energy sector has eaten up almost every nook and cranny in Calgary's prime office buildings over the past year, industry experts say. The result: Rent for space in the most desirable buildings -- if you can find any -- is now pushing $40 a square foot.

Toronto's most expensive building, BCE Place, is asking new tenants to pay between $36 and $38 a square foot before taxes and other costs, said its owner, Brookfield Properties Corp.

Ray Wong, head of research with CB Richard Ellis, said that with vacancy rates for prime space now below 1 per cent, rents are likely to climb even higher for what little space is available. "We could see the gap between Calgary and other markets get even bigger," he predicted.

Higher tax rates in Toronto mean that total occupancy costs for tenants are still higher in that city's landmark sky scrapers. But when similar buildings in the two cities are compared, Mr. Wong said even total occupancy costs in Calgary are outpacing those in Toronto.

Last year, the rates for the best buildings in Calgary climbed close to 49 per cent, Mr. Wong said, the greatest jump anywhere in Canada. In contrast, Toronto's rates edged up 3.9 per cent.

Still, rising rental rates don't amount to much if there is no space to be had.

Sandy McNair is president of InSite Real Estate Information System Inc., a Toronto firm that provides market statistics to the industry across Canada. He said the office market in Calgary has become so tight in the past year there is hardly a broom closet left to rent.

"It's stunning, absolutely stunning, what is happing in Calgary," Mr. McNair said. "There is just no stock, no matter what the price is. There is none."

Mr. McNair said his statistics show that for the entire downtown core in all types of office buildings there is only about 129,000 square feet of space available -- about the equivalent of six floors in an office tower. Of course that space is scattered across many buildings that vary in quality and location.

Mr. McNair pointed out that tenant costs also are higher because landlords are no longer covering the costs of updating space, and periods of free rent, often part of negotiations when a new lease is signed, are gone as well.

Tom Farley, president of Brookfield's Canadian operations, said his company's Calgary buildings, which include Bankers Hall, are full. If he had space, he said it would be on the market at the $40 level. Mr. Farley said experience has shown that Calgary is what he describes as a "dynamic market" where consolidations can unexpectedly free up space. Landlords, he said, must be constantly aware of oil industry developments and work to keep the tenants they have.

Several new mid-sized office towers are being built in Calgary and several others are planned, including a large new headquarters for EnCana Corp. Most in the industry agree that the current office building boom will meet demand and may even tip the balance back into the tenants' hands as existing office space frees up when companies move to newly constructed space.

But the earliest that new space will hit the market is still a year away. Until then, Mr. McNair said growing companies may have to hold their breath and cram their operations into existing quarters. As an alternative, they might look to convert buildings designed for other uses into office space just as Ottawa companies did during the high-tech boom, he said.

Tale of two cities

A comparison of two prime downtown office towers shows how Calgary has overtaken Toronto as the most expensive city in Canada in which to rent space.

CALGARY: CANTERRA TOWER
$40
NET RENT*
PER SQUARE FOOT
$14.71
TAXES AND OPERATING COSTS
Overall market
$39
NET ASKING RENT* FOR PRIME PROPERTIES, UP FROM $26.19 A YEAR EARLIER
0.4%
VACANCY RATE, DOWN FROM 4.9% A YEAR EARLIER

TORONTO: THE EXCHANGE TOWER
$26
NET RENT*
PER SQUARE FOOT
$28.64
TAXES AND OPERATING COSTS
Overall market
$29.44
NET ASKING RENT* FOR PRIME PROPERTIES, UP FROM $28.34 A YEAR EARLIER
6.3%
VACANCY RATE, DOWN FROM 8.4% A YEAR EARLIER

*ALL FIGURES TO END OF 2005