Next week sees the begining of the "Demolition" programme on Channel 4. Starts Saturday, runs for four nights. According to the BBC Cumbernauld will top the poll for the most hated structure. However the programme on Cumbernauld will feature G.M. and our proposals for the town centre. Something positive to counter the negativity, we think. Sunday 17th pm, look out for it

The Sunday Times December 11, 2005

Scots mall 'UK's worst eyesore'
Marc Horne



IT HAS already been named Scotland’s least attractive town — twice. Now Cumbernauld can also claim the dubious distinction of housing Britain’s ugliest building.
The town’s 1960s shopping centre, a once-futuristic fusion of glass and ramps on stilts, has topped a Channel 4 poll for the structure that people would most like to see razed to the ground.



The building in the hometown of newsreader Jackie Bird and comedian Craig Ferguson will be crowned with the unenviable honour this week in a special Christmas edition of the series Demolition.

The dubious accolade has inspired Gordon Murray, a leading Scottish architect, to draw up a blueprint which, he believes, could transform the town.

The poll drew 7,000 nominations for more than 1,000 buildings, ranging from public lavatories to power stations and included 156 concrete tower blocks. Among the 12 shortlisted as the most ugly are the £431m Scottish parliament building.

The second most hated building in Britain is the Imax cinema in Bournemouth, built in the 1990s as part of town-centre “improvements”. It opened in 2002 and closed this year.

Other eyesores nominated include the Cement Works, Rugby, the only industrial building in the final 12, and the Lodges supermarket in Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, the picturesque town where the BBC filmed Last of the Summer Wine. It has remained derelict for the past eight years.

Cumbernauld, whose population is 52,000, was created in 1956 to provide an overspill settlement for workers in Glasgow. In the 1960s its futuristic architecture and social housing schemes won awards and were deemed to be an example to other communities.

However its stark designs fell out of fashion — it has been described as the “Lego fantasy of an unhappy child” and its shopping centre as a “rabbit warren on stilts” — and today it is regarded as an example of bad town planning.

As a teenage student Murray, an award-winning architect, marvelled at the radical designs of the town which was the setting for the 1981 film Gregory’s Girl which launched the careers of John Gordon Sinclair and Clare Grogan.

He believes there is still a chance to bring life back to the centre, which has become beset with graffiti and boarded-up shops.
“I am sick and tired of people constantly having a go at Cumbernauld when they have no solution,” he said.




“I wanted to see if we could use the existing town centre, but be radical in our ideas as to how it could be brought back to life again. Do people want the whole town centre to be demolished because it has become a centre of the negativity surrounding Cumbernauld? “Knocking it down is not the solution. The existing town centre can be transformed into something positive.”

The architect, whose firm won an EU design award for restoring Glasgow central station, feels Cumbernauld has suffered after the original ethos behind the creation of community was abandoned.

“The original plans were for a thriving town centre with a host of facilities and we want to move back to that,” he said.

“There is enough there in the original building that you can strip out and use the framework to create something far better.”

Murray also believes the dual-carriageway that runs through the town should be restricted to a two-lane road and that a new high street should be created.

He said: “The original thesis behind Cumbernauld was that the pedestrian should be dominant over the car. It never happened, but we should move back towards that.”

Britain’s ugliest:

1, Cumbernauld shopping centre.

2, Imax cinema, Bournemouth.

3, The Bus Station, Northampton.

4, Crown House, Kidderminster, Worcestershire.

5, The Cement Works, Rugby.

6, Park Hill, Sheffield.

8, Gateshead multi-storey car park.

9, The Scottish parliament building, Edinburgh.

10, The Tower, Colliers Wood, southwest London.

11, Lodges supermarket, Holmfirth, West Yorkshire.

12, No. 1 Westminster Bridge, London.

13, Westgate House, Newcastle upon Tyne.










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Anyone see the opening Programme last night (Sat 17th Dec)? A bit too fast paced at times and it did not spend too much time on any one particular building.

I suppose as it was the opening Programme it was setting the scene for the series.

Must admit i quite liked the Gateshead Multi-Storey Car Park, but it looks as if Tesco are planning to demolish it for some faceless supermarket extension.

Also thought that the Architect's proposed treatment of the Crown House in Kidderminster, was a good example of what can be done with a tired old concrete office block. He (the Architect) managed to quite quickly quieten the local who was for demolishing the Crown House building.

I thought the presenter Kevin McCloud, did not offer much apart from a pensive comparison of today's structures with those built in the 1960's, he said something along the lines of, "I can't help but think that glass is the new concrete and will be viewed the same way in 40 years time as we view concrete structures today."

Any thoughts?

I found it quite interesting but they didn't spend enough time on some of the buildings. But I suppose there are still three more programs to go. Im looking forward to the fourth and last episode which is completely about Cumbernauld Town Centre and seeing as I live just outside of Cumbernauld than I would love to see the pile of crap be blown up. I know it won't happen but I l would like the m to do something about it. There was a billboard put up a few years ago advertising a new "Antonine Mall" but it blew away in a storm and no one replaced it.

On behalf of the Cumbernauld Tourist board:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld.jpg

it's a bit daft when you think of it, critisising the material. The technology has improved so much in forty years since these original buildings were built. Why not be as damning of brick or stone, it's how you detail it and how you use it and maintain it that's critical.

Hadid could'nt build what she is building without concrete.................. hey on the other hand maybe he's right.

Glass is also at the early stages of it's technological development, seems a simplistic thing to be so suspicious of it.

You may not believe this but the sections through the town centre in cumbernauld and the layering of form and plan is very interesting, you can just see evidence of what the section is like in the top left hand image get13. Other things have happened to damn this structure, like new fire regulations. It's not all bad design at inception.

Top left hand image is the technical college though...

Yeah - concrete is one my favourite materials actually. There are a lot of bad concrete buildings from the 1960s, but when it's done well it can be so beautiful.

As for the Cumbernauld - sure, it's interesting in section - we have a section drawing blown up to 1:50 (which makes it about 2 A0s) on the wall of our studio. It was fascinating to look at. When you went there though, you get a sense of it at all. Sure, things like lowering the ceilings and other modifications made in the 1980s (?) don't help, but a lot of it is bad design from the outset.

ha ha ha ha, technical college, eh? Brilliant!

right............... put my specs on, ah that's better

Anyone got any photo's of what Cumbernauld Town Centre looked like when it first opened? I recall seeing some photo's of it years ago when i was working in Cumbernauld.

Anyone know who the original Architect was?

It certainly looked a lot better than it does now with bits of it demolished, other bits added on, bits of it painted etc. The Town Centre certainly has not been well maintained.

Anyway the biggest aberration in Cumbrnauld is not the Town Centre but the the big Chocolate Brown Office Block - Fleming House, that sits on Tryst Road. I worked on it in the mid 1980's as Site Engineer. Even back then when we were building it we thought it was out of place. Apparently the Architect had pinched the design from another location.

"The first Chief Architect Hugh Wilson assembled a team of planners and designers from all corners of the world. They considered themselves to be part of a pioneering experiment in urban planning, and for years their fellow architects and planners travelled to Cumbernauld to study this bold utopia on a windy hilltop in central Scotland" from Here to Modernity

what's the alternative by the way, Tesco's.....would'nt it be better to try and salvage it rather than demolish, strip it back, it's a pretty unique structure?

hmmmm depressing. :sleepy:

http://www.buildingconnections.co.uk/resources/archhistory/20.htm

http://www.buildingconnections.co.uk/resources/archhistory/photographs/cumbernauld_town-centre.jpg

http://www.buildingconnections.co.uk/resources/archhistory/thumbnails/cumbernauld-view_from_se_of.jpghttp://www.buildingconnections.co.uk/resources/archhistory/thumbnails/cumbernauld_resedential.jpg

what's the alternative by the way, Tesco's.....would'nt it be better to try and salvage it rather than demolish, strip it back, it's a pretty unique structure?

Yes - absolutely. I think they need to perform some fairly radical surgery on it, but demolition certainly isn't the answer.

What was the Architect trying to signify... rail carriages held up by a single stilt?:dunno:

I guess the Cumbernauld centre is really part of the town's whole raison d'etre - the brave new world and all that, and to lose it completely would perhaps not be the ideal solution. I'm not totally familiar with the internal layout, but surely some re-layering and re-modelling is achievable. Although it appears in a poor state of repair, the form of it is quite powerful and a strong remider of the ideas prevalent at the time of it's construction.

Not all buildings of the Modern era are all bad - just a couple of minutes drive brings you to Gillespie Kidd & Coia's (?) Our Lady's High School. Many laypersons probably despise it, but in my opinion it is one of the most important tectonic statements in the area.

demolition show: surprisingly good.

ferguson's attempts to change the parly detractor's minds: terrible. guy's an inarticulate fool. a poor professional standard bearer for the profession - he will reinforce the public's already poor and misconstrued opinion of architects.

(also, during the intro, he said: these buildings are mistakes from another era - misplacing the argument from the beginning. Firstly, it assumes everything we do today is good; secondly, it reduces the debate over buildings down to aesthetics. linking poor quality design exclusively to Britain's post-war audit is a big mistake)

kevin mccloud: he surprises me every time by saying things I whole heartedly agree with.

Even tho I want to hate him.

he managed to open up the X-list debate satisfactorily - unlike co-presenter Janet Street Porter - her input was entirely unnecessary and ear splittingly unwelcome.

her (appropriately directed) hatred towards david adjaye does not give her a 'get out of jail' cards in my opinion.

points about 'taste' differences between the profession and the public were explored, albeit tentatively but its a first for telly nonetheless.

problem: running the programmes so closely together. they did this a while ago with alsop's shows on cities and with a show on housing by charlie luxton. it means fewer people see them and it means that the schedulers don't really think this stuff is important.

What about the Aylesbury monolith?
I couldn't believe the reverence the so-called experts attached to it!
Domestic-scaled bay windows on a 20-storey concrete tower!
Hideous!

Can Cumbernauld town centre be made to work? I'm not sure. I'm not doubting that it is a fascinating diagram and idea but it in basic urban terms it doesn't currently work as it is too disconnected from the surrounding new town. The idea of separating and prioritising pedestrian and car movements sounds like a great humanist move but unfortunately the reality of piss stinking underpasses is something else entirely. Perhaps you do still need a mix of the two?

The town centre's current state reminds me of cyberpunk author William Gibson's use of the Oakland Bay Bridge, in his Virtual Light series, as a metaphor for the failure of the modernist project, the rise of post modern condition and the increasing fragmentation of American society. For those not aware of Gibson's work the Bridge, having been rendered useless as a result of an earthquake, is taken over by a disenfranchised squatter community and a new shanty town structure is grafted onto this seminal image of modernity. Unfortunately this fantastic image was squandered in the dire 'Johnny Mnemonic' vehicle for Keanu Reeves in a pre Matrix career slump! Cumbernauld Town Centre's current condition, with an increasing skirt of accreted junk / buildings, is similar to this.

Anyway it might be possible to get it to work but I imagine you'd have rethink the town's density. I've come across Cumbernauld town centre analogs in both Singapore and Hong Kong. They both worked there because of density. In Hong Kong's case it was because there was an enormous public housing complex overlaid on top of the centre and with no other public space outlet the centre was effectively made to work through community self policing and the density of functions and uses crammed into it. In Singapore's case it was located adjacent to two densely populated districts and like Cumbernauld was surrounded by an accreted skirt, though in this instance it was a delightful selection of market vendors, food stalls, taxi ranks etc etc.

So could Cumbernauld be re-engineered along these lines? Not if North Lanarkshire's planners future vision of the place is more Tescos, tacked on Shopping centres, car parking, and a sea of executive housing. I'll be very interested to see what the recommendations of the architects involved in Demolition are.

Agree with your comments about George Ferguson and the parliament SI. He was hardly eloquent and just keeled over in the face of opposition. Didn't they try to take the doubters inside? Usually that does the trick as people can see beyond the difficult to appreciate / absorb exterior to the quality of the spaces and the detailing. Palace of the people as Janet Street Porter refered to about another building entirely last night?! I speak from exeprience having been trapped in the place for most of Thursday afternoon and evening...

I kind of liked the Aylesbury building, just a wee bit. Totally out of place granted but brutal enough to grow on you. But whether you would want to try and refurbish a building of that size when it starts to go is a different matter.

It'll all be down to cash at the end of the day.

The so called experts crack me up, last month on TV, Janice Street - Porter was doing a character assasination on Michael Moore and now this month she is the Demolition "trouble shooter".

Well, i suppose if Kirsty Wark is an expert on Architecture, so might be Janice Street Porter. ;)

Socceroo, Janet Street Porter trained as an architect for three years at the AA in London before embarking on her media career. She's comissioned houses from the likes of Piers Gough and David Adjaye (though as SI refers to below I gather things didn't go smoothly) so she is a bit of a lovey in that department!

Interesting points guys. I must admit to not knowing much of Cumbernauld having only ever driven past it but i must say i feel entirely underwhlemed and uninspired by the thought of doing anything with it. I find it difficult to care either way. However the debate is interesting. Has anyone complied a list or completed a survey of the place's failings? Looking at the original plans and perspectives it reems there were to be two large rows of penthouses atop the town centre structure... did these ever transpire? if not, could this be the missing link that binds the centre to the town? The way I see it, Cumbernauld is such a disperate and ram-shackle collection of houses it will take a lot more than the replacement of this structure to regenrate the toon and give it some cohesion. Perhaps the tabula rasa approach adopted in Glasgow should be used here and start over afresh? Better still, ditch te place entirely along with most of the out-lying schemes and redensify Glasgow?

Anywho... could have been worse for Cumbernauld, they could have got that bus station from last nights episode!!!!

i frikkin hate Janet St Porter... she's a gibbon in a pair of dungarees with Sharon Osbornes old wig on.

Janice the matri-arch-itect seriously bugs my happiness.

I'm guessing the main reason she liked Aylesbury was because she met someone inside the building who had teeth worse than hers!

hahahaha!!!!! Touché!!!

I was just trying to be facetious Gweilo, i read about her run ins with David Adjaye and knew she was a bit of lovey, thought she was an Arts student at one point though, i did not recall that she had studied Architecture for three years....interesting.

Piers Gough.....mmmmm.....as a wee aside has anyone gave any views on the forums previously (pre the forums being hacked) about the Paragon on Old Rutherglen Road in the Gorbals? General consensus?

I had a wander around some of the more desolate parts of the town centre yesterday that I have never been to before:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00801.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00800.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00799.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00798.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00797.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00796.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00795.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00794.jpg

Here is the interior at the very top floor. The part that no-one with any sense
go to.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00793.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00792.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00790.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00789.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00788.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00786.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00785.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00784.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00783.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00782.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00780.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00779.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00778.jpg

Here is the new entrance at the front of the grey and red building on the left in the 2nd picture down
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00812.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/towncentre4.jpg

Here is the interior of the grey part before the revamp
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/towncentre.jpg

And after
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00809.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00806.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00805.jpg

Here is the interior of the part across the road that is featured in the demolition programme. This is the floor under the nasty floors pictured above.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00804.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00803.jpg

I cant imagine a revamp of the centre ofter looking at these pics you have posted up get13, i havent been to cumbernauld centre recently but have passed through it, it's very densely housed and does need a new centre that will bring the spirits of the population up.. it badly needs that fast.

Throwing good money after bad by revamping is not a solution IMO..How can they afford that in the long term ? its already been patched up so many times but dosent seem to do anything for the place... me thinks an oblitiration of the whole centre and start from scratch.

:ancient: :old: Blow it off the face of the earth.

Oooh it's charming isn't it! Erm... It doesn't look too different from Shawland Arcade on the inside! No seriously, it does look interesting from aspects and could have potential but it does look to be at the end of it's life. Glendinning's 'Rebuilding Scotland' does give an interesting, enlightening if you're not an architect, perspective on what was trying to be achieved by developments like this at the time an also the debate on whether they should be preserved or not but if Tesco want a bigger store they won't hang around waiting for a protracted debate, they'll more than likey move the site and associated trade somewhere else. Then we'd be left looking for alternative uses, much like St Peters! I'm glad I don't have to use it or live there.

Does anyone know what Historic Scotlands stance is on Cumbernauld?

Cheers

Spacey - completely agree about Ferguson - he was useless. Anyway, how could anybody take design advice seriously, when dished out by a man in such bright red trousers?

And Janet Street Porter. Change "trousers" to hair and jacket. I oscillate between liking and hating her. Saw her live speaking with the artist Ed Ruscha about a year ago, and that reinforced my feeling of uncertainty about her.

Glendinning loves Cumbernauld does he not though?

I think Phase 1 is Grade A listed, is it not?

Piers Gough.....mmmmm.....as a wee aside has anyone gave any views on the forums previously (pre the forums being hacked) about the Paragon on Old Rutherglen Road in the Gorbals? General consensus?

Show me a pic and I'll give you a generally consensual one ;)

Yeah, he sure does Maccie! It's worth the read though if you can look past his thoughts and editorial sight as there are a few other well respected contributors. Appeared relatively balanced for what it was to me. Listed you say... I can check that. ta :)

It was an interesting show last night indeed. I thought the attempts made to convince the haters of the parly building were pathetic:

"I'm going to try my utmost to see if I can persuade them to like it.............. what’s that? Still no? Awww come on! Come onnn! I'll be your friend! You're mean!

Well there you go. I tried to convince them, but they still don't like it. And they shouldn't do, the bastards, cos only architects and designers are ALOUD to like it! OK?"

Or something to that effect....


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Janice the matri-arch-itect seriously bugs my happiness.

I'm guessing the main reason she liked Aylesbury was because she met someone inside the building who had teeth worse than hers!
:lol: - quite a display of chompers on show during that scene, eh?

What a building though! Personally I thought it looked hideous and out of place, but good grief! The architect must have had testicles the size of Basket Balls to throw that brute up in the middle of Aylesbury!


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Fantastic Pictures Get13!! Love them!

They really show off the sheer bleakness of the structure. And what a structure! Almost archaic in design, the town centre is more of a labyrinth than a shopping mall. It's design is almost otherworldly - if it had actually worked, then by god it would have been spectacular. But it didn't. At all. Part of its charm really, if you didn't have to put up with it everyday.

I would be willing to put money on the fact that no-one in the whole world has been in every part of the shopping centre. There are more nooks, crannies and partitions than the whole of Edinburgh's Royal Mile. Fascinating. I would love to meet the guy who designed it.

Don't forget of course that Cumbenauld's town centre is the inspiration for almost every big mall in the U.S.! Cumbernauld inspired the Americans to build shopping malls, and now they are renowned as the being amongst the biggest and best in the world.



And I always used to have a soft spot for Flemming House - I used to live (very briefly) in Flemming Road when I was young, and so always thought the 2 were inexplicably joined to each other in some way...

Ta david. It was a bit weird going up to the top floors. I found a door that led to the roof where the handle was broken and it was just lying open so I went and had a look it was a bit frightening. I felt as if the building was about to collapse under me.

Anyway I forgot this pic which is an aerial picture from when Cumbernauld was being built.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Get13/Cumbernauld/DSC00787.jpg

BBC Radio Scotland , Tuesday 8.20am. Discussion about Cumbernauld and then on Reporting Scotland at 6.30 pm prior to the main programme at 8.00pm.

Funny you should mention George Ferguson's red trousers and how do you expect anyone to take you seriously, that's exactly the consensus in the office today and how quickly he buckled.

That's the difficulty with programmes like demolition and the X List, the "experts" don't like it "up 'em" sooner or later someone will say leave it to the professionals, what does the public know, which is what we have already, really

Show me a pic and I'll give you a generally consensual one ;)

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/GLASGOWMAN/PARAGON2.jpg

The obligatory Computer generated render.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/GLASGOWMAN/PARAGON.jpg

Picture of it from Southside. Wonder if he (Piers Gough) took the colour of the roofing from Waddell Court across Ballater Street?

Anyone got any views on tonight's programme? I thought it was contrived clichéd crap. Don't live here live there! It did not offer any new argument or suggestions for me.

yep, Saturday was interesting, I thought but has gone downhill, Sunday was patronising twaddle tonight was a bore

So G.M's turn tomorrow night with Cumbernauld. Have you got him a pair of red trousers for his Christmas?

nope, like me though he has his own red nose.

To be fair to Gough, the building as completed is much like the render. I never made the comparison with Waddell Court but now you've suggested it I'd say yes.

I thought last nights programme quite interesting actually and by focusing on housing did illustrate how key it is to get this right and how elusive that can be. Yes ok a lot of the points have been stated before and are obvious but given their importance they are still worth restating. Besides these programmes are pitched at a broader public. Cut it some slack!

I was particularly interested to hear the factoring costs for the former naval estate. Upwards of £2000 a year for the privilege of living in a degraded environment with falling property values and that still doesn't get you a functioning lift. Scary.

Or to see the emotional reaction of the Edinburgh people who had been campaigning for years to get their tower block removed and to be rehoused in decent housing conditions. This focus of hatred was suddenly gone and an enormous emotional void opened up as they realised the price they had paid i.e. the loss of receptacle of memory and sense of belonging however awful an environment for living in it was. Yes OK I'm sure there was some producer sitting there saying get the shoot of her tearing up it makes good telly but who says our environment doesn't have an impact on our psyche? Also more could have been made of the Kevin's point in Glasgow about how we've gone from this heroic sixties vision of towers in a landscape (check out those views over Glasgow. Wow!) back to a more suburban 1930's vision of what Gordon Cullen wrote off as 'prairie planning'. Is this the future that lies in store for former GHA tower block sites? Is that what a UK vision of city building amounts to? Bit provincial no?

What about how rubbish the current products of the house building industry are, scaled down furniture and all, and that British industry space standards are now the smallest in the whole of Europe? Ok its all widely known, is a cheap shot and wasn't saying anything new. But when this was blamed on the current ODPM approach to raising density I had to laugh. C'mon who are you kidding. Increasing density does not equate with smaller and smaller housing footprints. Only in the UK. Time to relook at the product maybe?

Or how relatively straightforward it was to get the inherently mutable and adaptable Victorian terraces of Manchester working again. Should they be being written off by the ODPM Pathfinder scheme? Is this not hugely wasteful when a bit of conservative surgery can turn them around as decent living spaces for the same cost as demolition but with the bonus of actually adding value as a capital asset? Didn't the UK learn anything from the tenement rehabilitations in Glasgow?

Finally the fascinating Park Hill estate. Easy to slag off given it's current run down appearance but serious potential. I've never seen footage from the internal courtyards before and it was quite impressive, almost Regency with a real sense of urban scale. The maturity of those gardens was a distinct asset. Though I've seen images extracted from this before I still thought Urban Splash's video presentation was amusingly naive but at least it was upbeat and in contrast to all the negativity about the place. Obviously there were inherent design flaws but should we write these blocks off when these problems could be remedied? If you did get a mix of uses (shops, offices, leisure, doctors surgery, nursery, school etc) and tenures in there rather than just all social housing so that it was a real place and community would this not really work?

oi, mate - get on with your work!

gotta say Gweilo, I'm sorry I missed last night's show after reading your comments.

very interested in place, I am.

Gweilo, that's a better TV review than AA Gill could do! I thought last night's Programme was patronising in the extreme, even allowing for it to be targetted at the broader public.

I gave the Programme a chance after the trailer format that it put out on Saturday night. Maybe it's trying to do too much with relatively little air time. Maybe because many of us on these forums are involved in the built environment, we expect too much.

Maybe it is just Janice Street - Porter who does my head in. :bash:

Anyway, following your excellent review i will have another go at last nights programme to see if it was really as poor as i first thought, or to see if it was the influence of the bottle of Merlot that i was polishing off at the time of viewing.

Looking forward to tonight's programme all the same.

Well on the other hand I could be being too nice! You're right we do deal with this stuff day to day so I find myself making a conscious effort not to get jaded or blase about the whole thing and to make allowances for others who maybe aren't as well informed. Perhaps it helps that my partner is not involved in this line of work and brings a different perspective? Perhaps I am guilty of seeing what I want to see? Or maybe its cause I was doing half a dozen things at once with only half an eye on the telly! I do find Kevin McCloud a tad grating and patronising in that home counties way but I tend to just switch off my ears when he starts spouting and concentrate on the images (an evil thought did cross my mind that it might have been wryly amusing if in full patronising flow someone had scored a direct hit on Kevin at the Park Hill estate. Something soft like a rotten tomato. Or a turd...).

I genuinely felt for the Edinburgh folk. It wasn't what I was expecting and you could draw a parallel with the way that sometimes hostages fall in love with the hostage taker. This block they all hated had occupied such a large part of their lives that they start grieving! Weird.

The other bit I had omitted to mention was the dreaded Poundbury, which I find quite interesting though that might make me unfashionable. Ok I can fully understand the pastiche critique of it. Yes its a bit too fakey and sweet for my taste but what interests me is how it tames the car. That the streetscapes have been formed in an organic way such as there is this shared surface that encourages car drivers to slow down and think and without the proliferation of signage most contemporary streets require to get them to work. All to the benefit of the pedestrian and the public realm. Is that not actually quite a modern and radical approach to this problem? Ok Poundbury is picturesque and contrived but then how much more so is your bog standard commuter cul de sac that would like to offer a bucolic bliss but fails miserably and in doing so lacks any of its urban qualities, sense of identity, and is nowhere near the density?

But yes probably too big a topic to condense into one program and therefore it does all get a bit soundbite.

As for Janet's dulcet tones. Well what can you say?!

Janet Street Porter is a comedy legend. Her speech is always several minutes in advance of her brain, possibly accounting for the tonal pitch.

"I'm going to be a bit of a dictator.... I'm going to ask you to vote."

Genius.

And McCloud's near miss with the projectile Bucky bottle on Park Hill. :)

Although nothing could top North "people don't care what buildings look like" Lanarkshire Council.

You couldn't script this stuff.

what a disappointment, two days in a workshop reduced to a series of soundbites for JSP and the great red trousered one.

God! No wonder the senior planner refused to attend or contribute.

Quite comical actualy..the rail carraiges on stilts..my sentiments in an earlier post, could've been scripted slightly.

Street porter ??!! why ?.. her rent must be due.

Total negativity from North Lanarkshire council.. shame on yooz :|

Good expliotation of the visionary side from designers though..i still say clear it and start again.

Extract from NLC Buletin

http://www.northlan.gov.uk/business+and+employment/local+economy/economic+information/economic+bulletin+1.pdf

NLC's vision of the town centre
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2121/cnauld4sp.jpg

"A fifties spaceship from the planet crap".

And North Lanarkshire's Head of Planning?
Can it be any wonder that some of the country's worst towns are in this authority with this tool in charge!

Felt last nights programme worked better focusing on one building but I would rather it had spent longer looking at solutions. Wasn't surprised that the workshop received so little air time but at the same time disappointed that the experts didn't get a proper opportunity to present their case (and in doing so had Janet 'DIKTATOR' Street Porter hectoring them, and by the way it was edited appearing to dominate the proceedings. Check out the body language...) especially when it involved retaining the focus of some many local's frustration and anger. If I were a local I would feel a bit let down by the brevity of that and the stating the obvious focus on how awful the centre was. Also felt the case for George Ferguson's 'X' listing was tacked on and not in the least bit convincing.

What was really astonishing, as others have mentioned, was North Lanarkshire's attitude. 'People aren't interested in what the outside of a building looks like' Oh really? What utter tosh! Try asking Cumbernauld residents that! The planners obviously think that they are powerless to plan in the face of the market demands. Doesn't have to be that way but to refute the need for a 25 year masterplan in the current circumstances was pretty weak and they are doing their residents a disservice. Another internalised shopping centre located parallel to the existing town centre is only going to exacerbate the mess and is not sustainable planning. It looks like 'do nothing' is the council's default setting in lieu of the market stepping forward to solve the mess for them. You would have thought the someone could make a long term economic case for sorting this to Cumbernauld's benefit in the same way that Birmingham had the nous to tackle the Bullring. Can no one appeal direct to the Scottish Executive over the council's head?

Aren't Cumbernauldians a handsome bunch! Could not believe my ears at NLC's head of planning: what a jaw dropping embarassment ...for everyone! That's obviously the reason he didn't take part in the rethink session: he wouldn't have had anything positive or worthwhile to contribute. Interesting commet by kevin regarding ownership of our "town centres" and shopping malls by pension funds... so its all our own faults then?!

Anyway, if anyone knows the guy in the red troosers, tell him to sort himself out, he looks like a kids tv presenter! I can't admit to knowing much of Gordon Murray's stance on issues we've discussed such as the loss of Thomson's offices or th former Elgin Pl church but I noticed he was quick off the mark to make the comment that the debate on preservation or demolition of Cumbernauld Town Centre would not be happening if it were built in the 19thC ...sounded like a comment you would have made yourself not too long ago Alan... and thought it had a little smacking of hypocrasy; using the heritage police's arguments to suit your own end ;) Was a pertinent enough point to make though.

After digesting the last 2 night's programmes I'm coming round to thinking that Cum,bernauld shoul be preserved, or rather reused. The idea of forming an 'High St' on the dual carriageway and shop fronts a the loading bays is a good start but it will take some major intervention to turn opinion round in Cumbernauld itself.

btw... Spacey, were you int it?

Turning the road into what would in effect be a boulevard / high street is absolutely the way to go. Unfortunately the continual routing of the dual carrige way (A80 is it?) through the town centre doesn't assist this at all. Were plans to build a Cumbernauld bypass not rejected by the Executive? Lack of long term joined up strategic thinking doesn't help the sustainablity agenda.

The Pension fund argument is quite interesting actually as with a bit of clever thinking their investment could be made to work for cities and towns not against them. Shouldn't pension funds be working to invest our capital for us after all?

Yeah the road does get in the way a bit! The solution they came up with was narrowing the four lanes to two and blurring the edges of road and pavement but how do you step the traffic down from the national speed limit (or do motorway limits apply?) to 20mph and is it not quite a busy road? I don't hold much hope for a joined up strategy after hearing that planner, but for the town centre to have a viable future it need to fixed with the "white heat" of our technology and best of our design, only then will it will it be secured.

Are the 60's not "in" just now anyway? Or have I just "outed" myself as being "out" of touch?

Who all pays in to a pension fund here?

Gweilo, the dual carriageway running thru Cumbernauld isn't the A80 - the A80 does bypass Cumbernauld and the recent replacement of the Auchenkilns roundabout has significantly improved traffic flow on this the main Glasgow - Stirling road.

I am not of the opinion that removing two lanes is the answer. The spine road running thru the centre of Cumbernauld works and adding traffic congestion by downgrading it will only make things worse in other parts of the town. However, it's impact should be softened by providing robust interventions, regular crossing points and street furniture/ trees etc to give it a more human scale. Granted - Cumbernauld is not Barcelona or Paris, but a "tarting up" of the road would be a good start and probably be more cost-effective in the short term.

Remember Cumbernauld is not Perth or Dunfermline or Hamilton. Though it's population is similar to these towns, it's urban fabric is radically different and is set out in a linear format (or at least that was the plan in the 50s). It is very much a "strip" town - a mini Las Vegas or Albuquerque without the glamour. Though I agree that a new High Street should be created, I feel that certain sweeping statements like constricting the main artery would be extremely dishonest to the town without wholesale changes in the rest of the town. In other words - a Perth or Hamilton (or any other like-sized town for that matter) style town centre would not in my opinion work along the current arterial route.

Thanks for clearing that up Bloo toon red. Can't say I'm too clued up about Scotland's road network in that neck of the woods. If getting rid of two lanes is really going to give rise to problems for the functioning of the town that you suggest maybe treating it as a proper boulevard in the Parisian sense of the word is the answer. What I mean by that is that it should have fast lanes for regional traffic, then separated by trees, slow lanes for local traffic, another tree belt, then roads you can park along, and then finally tree lined pavements. This allows you to step down the speed of the road closer to pedestrian zones. But is there the width to accomodate all that?

Personally I think that the town should be doing its utmost to ditch the sub 'Strip' feel to it. It's anti urban and hardly serves the residents well. I wouldn't be precious about the centre of Cumbernauld's current distinct character given that its failing to function for the people it was built for. I imagine most of them would much prefer Perth or Hamilton's urban qualities.

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001971/Downie/Downie12/Downie17.jpg

Intersting effect achieved with the strip tho... well at least on plan!

Here's some more photos:

Cumbernauld from space:
http://www.themapshop.co.uk/images/skyview/cumbernauld.jpg

Bold new vision:
http://www.ar.utexas.edu/AV/Atkinson/lecture8/garden20.jpg

Brave new world:
http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001971/Downie/Downie12/Downie20.jpg

Dissappointing reality:
http://www.ar.utexas.edu/AV/Atkinson/lecture8/garden21.jpg

Some links:
The Disappointing New Towns of Great Britain (http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001971/Downie/Downie12/Downie12.html) lol
Cumbernauld Area 1 (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kilsyth/cumbernauld-1.htm)


...enjoi!

Regarding boulevards this isn't blue sky thinking. Remember the double decker highway that collapsed in the San Fransician earthquake of '89? Well they decided not to re-build it and opted for a boulevard instead. In February of this year they held an international competition to design the urban fabric around it:

Fifteen years after the Loma Prieta earthquake devastated parts of San Francisco, an amazing silver lining is emergent in the City’s Hayes Valley Neighborhood. The earthquake-damaged Central Freeway, a double-deck structure that once cut a swath through this neighborhood, has been demolished. Left behind are twenty-two developable parcels and a new, landscaped, European-style boulevard currently under construction as the freeway’s replacement. In addition to providing the opportunity to build almost 1,000 new housing units and vibrant retail space in a densely populated, historic neighborhood, the project offers an exceptional opportunity to achieve excellence and innovation in urban infill architectural design.

Here's a link to a pdf of the brief:

http://www.sfprize.org/pdf/Part_1_Introduction_%20Site_Context.pdf


and more info and background here including a section through the approx 40 metre wide boulevard.

http://www.sfgov.org/site/octavia_blvd_index.asp

What that centre needs most, at least short term, is a good lick of paint! The road through the place does need some work, agreed. What amazes me about the town is how far from the centre the railway station seems to be. What really should have been done was to make a railway rather than road through its centre, might still be possible?

Just been looking through RCAHMS and came across this pic of Cumbernauld's civic square... I give you Clyde Place:

http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/scotland_screenres_800/710112.jpg

Bus stop in Brasilia circa 1970?
http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/scotland_screenres_800/358273.jpg

I'm actually starting to come round to the place a bit (shock horror), but you know what I think it's problem was in the simplest terms? There was/is far too much going on! Too much... stuff! I reckon we should go all Victorian puritanical (think Glasgow Cathedral) on them and clean it out, get rid of all that junk and stick in some of Alan's crazy windows:

http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/scotland_screenres_800/702557.jpg

http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/scotland_screenres_800/710129.jpg

:)

Actually that last picture posted above to me looks like there is a lot of potential there for a good architect armed with a good eye for blending facades and recladding. I haven't seen this building in the flesh but I certainly think that from an architectural history point of view it is worth keeping. The proposals the demolition team came up with seemed like a good start to me, i hope they give them a chance and ditch the plan for that additional mall. Tidy up the area around the site and you'd be making a good start. A bit of paint and a gardener and i think it'd already look ten times better.

Antonine Centre
http://www.futureglasgow.co.uk/Commercial/Antonine_Centre.jpg

AJ article
http://www.futureglasgow.co.uk/extra/aj3.jpg

http://www.futureglasgow.co.uk/extra/aj4.jpg

Not sure that the design reaches the heady heights of average.

I'm not just being dramatic, but I actually can't stand to look at the renders of this thing. It just utterly defies belief... it looks like it's just woken up from a coma and is coming straight out of the 70's... shades of brown and all.

All through a recent BBC report, they were claiming it was in Dunbartonshire...

I know - it is just unbelievable.

Keppie: you're a bunch of Gobshites.

All through a recent BBC report, they were claiming it was in Dunbartonshire...

On this thread a year later. Cumbernauld was in Dunbartonshire. Strange as it may seem. The Council(not the C.D.C)adrdess was Bron Way, Cumbernauld, Dunbartonshire. Just one more odd thing about the whole surreal experience.