Berlin - Goodbye Palace of the Republic [Archive] - Page 2

Nico_Uru

July 22nd, 2009, 09:30 PM

I don't see anywhere a political motive behind it. In fact, this new palace will be more open to the public than the DDR version as being a shopping center people will be able to visit on a daily basis, not just when events happen.

I went through this before, the destruction of the Palast--the former seat of the Socialist DDR--was a political act to bury that legacy. Those who supported the destruction of the Palast used, in large measure, the "totalitarian nightmare" of the DDR to justify why it should be torn down. You yourself have used these excuses as reasons why the Palast should go, and many of your colleagues have as well. These are inherently political acts. The construction of the Palace represents the old 'natural' German order of capitalism and liberal/enlightenment progressivism. I said in the thread that I would support the demolition of the Palast under the condition that a new building was built to signify a new Germany. The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.

I suggest you watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_N_1HQpE4o

Justme

July 22nd, 2009, 10:25 PM

I went through this before, the destruction of the Palast--the former seat of the Socialist DDR--was a political act to bury that legacy. Those who supported the destruction of the Palast used, in large measure, the "totalitarian nightmare" of the DDR to justify why it should be torn down.

Well, that's your imagination more than fact. Otherwise why was the berliner fernsehturm not destroyed as well? That was a Propaganda construction of the DDR designed so high that those in the West could see it every day. Why, because unlike the Palace of the Republic, it is not UGLY.

In fact, it was more the other way around. Those that didn't want it destroyed were generally communists like yourself that had political motives for it to stay.

So, there is no point in you continuing this discussion unless you can come up with a valid reason why the DDR fernsehturm was not demolished and has no plans to be demolished, yet the DDR palace was.

You yourself have used these excuses as reasons why the Palast should go,

No I have not. Read what I write and so many times I have written it has NOTHING to do with politics and ALL to do with being ugly.

The fact that you actually read something that is different to reality demonstrates something here. If you are willing to twist my words around in such a way to corrupt the reality of what I said, it is clear how you can twist anything around you to fit your own extreme political ideologies. And they are extreme if you support communism.

I did point out the horrors of the DDR and communism in general, but I never said those were reasons why it should be demolished.

These are inherently political acts. The construction of the Palace represents the old 'natural' German order of capitalism and liberal/enlightenment progressivism. I said in the thread that I would support the demolition of the Palast under the condition that a new building was built to signify a new Germany. The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.

You really live in a dream world. Have you even been to Berlin? I am thinking not, unless it was with your parents as a child.

CrayZD

July 22nd, 2009, 10:48 PM

The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.

If you see the phantom of a Prussian kingdom being reborn where there's nothing but a healthy sense of aesthetics, then I cannot help you.

The rebuilding of historic cityscapes in Berlin and (not only) Eastern Germany is not at all a political issue. It's just the consequence of the aesthetical failure of post-war architecture.

Nico_Uru

July 22nd, 2009, 11:26 PM

Well, that's your imagination more than fact. Otherwise why was the berliner fernsehturm not destroyed as well?

A) its a tourist attraction, ergo money is to be made.
B) most Berliners support the building as a very important part of the city-scape.
C) most importantly, the building does not have the same political resonance that the Palast had; again I will point out for the 1000x, the building was the SEAT OF THE DDR.

In fact, it was more the other way around. Those that didn't want it destroyed were generally communists like yourself that had political motives for it to stay.

First off, I said that I would not be opposed to the demolition of the Palast, that is not the issue. The issue is why rebuild an overtly political symbol of the past over another symbol of the past? If you think its only because of aesthetics, I am not going to convince you otherwise. Secondly, I am a democratic-socialist not a communist, therefore I am not fan of the DDR.

No I have not. Read what I write and so many times I have written it has NOTHING to do with politics and ALL to do with being ugly.

vs.

I did point out the horrors of the DDR and communism in general, but I never said those were reasons why it should be demolished.

I am 100% sure that those value judgments you placed on the DDR has NO bearing on your evaluation of the buildings aesthetics or place in Berlin...please.

You really live in a dream world. Have you even been to Berlin? I am thinking not, unless it was with your parents as a child.

No I do not live in a dream world, I think you do. The whole purpose of political theory is to analyze what is NOT APPARENT, do you understand that concept? If you think I am out of this world read Foucault...

Justme

July 23rd, 2009, 12:11 AM

A)
No I do not live in a dream world, I think you do. The whole purpose of political theory is to analyze what is NOT APPARENT, do you understand that concept? If you think I am out of this world read Foucault...

Almost everyone here disagrees with you. So, we're all living the dream eh :lol:

Kampflamm

July 23rd, 2009, 12:17 AM

The PdR wasn't the seat of the GDR since its parliament's sole role was to rubberstamp decisions made by the Politburo. Interestingly enough the real seat of the GDR (Staatsratsgebäude) has not been destroyed. Once again Nico's argument falls apart. :(

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Ehemaliges_Staatsratsgeb%C3%A4ude_der_DDR.jpg/800px-Ehemaliges_Staatsratsgeb%C3%A4ude_der_DDR.jpg

Nico_Uru

July 23rd, 2009, 12:24 AM

Almost everyone here disagrees with you. So, we're all living the dream eh

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, and so is your entire argument which has boiled down to this point. Thanks to the lack of rebuttal, says a lot more than what you do say.

The PdR wasn't the seat of the GDR since its parliament's sole role was to rubberstamp decisions made by the Politburo.

It was the official seat of the state...so my point still stands.

Kampflamm

July 23rd, 2009, 12:26 AM

Dr.Seltsam

July 23rd, 2009, 01:06 AM

Bla bla bla...ergo the "palace" of the GDR is gone and there will be a beautiful "new" (and real) palace.

Nico_Uru

July 23rd, 2009, 01:15 AM

How is a parliament the official seat of the state? Your point doesn't stand at all since you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Plenty of GDR buildings have been renovated so there is no "capitalist" agenda behind all of this.

Because in socialist states there is no executive as there are in lib. democratic states. The head of the Communist party (Honecker and the Politburo) were the de facto heads of the government, but the building where they met was not SYMBOLICALLY at the centre of the state. The PdR was symbolically and officially the centre of East German life and government, located literally and strategically in the middle of Berlin. The parliament was de jure the seat of the state, since it represented the people's will not that of the party. The other DDR buildings were renovated because they could be transformed to make money and they are not SYMBOLIC of the regime. Alexander Platz now is full of advertising, therefore expunging it of all its socialist symbolism. However, the PdR is the symbol of the DDR and that could not be expunged; for example, the Reichstag, no matter what you do to it, will always be associated with the German state. Do you comprehend? Do I need a hammer and sickle to make it clear to you? :bash:

ainttelling

July 23rd, 2009, 02:01 AM

After the switch to capitalism, not maintaining Socialist landmarks properly became a form of propaganda of the new economic system. :yes:

CrayZD

July 23rd, 2009, 10:02 AM

By the way, the federal government that first decided to demolish the PdR was a coalition of Social Democrats and Greens. Why should they intend to make propaganda against socialism? Please wake up, guys...

Justme

July 23rd, 2009, 10:51 AM

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, and so is your entire argument which has boiled down to this point. Thanks to the lack of rebuttal, says a lot more than what you do say.

Your point fails when you actually talk rubbish. Your statement is a bit like you claiming a blue shirt is actually red, when everyone else see's the red shirt execpt you. This is your delusion. The amazing thing is, that you are denying reality here by masking it in a cloud of political ideologies which have no substance outside of your own mind.

What makes this even worse is that you seem to harbour a personality in which when more people dissagree with you, instead of realizing that you may actually be wrong you simply reinforce your delusions. You build higher walls to protect your opinions and thoughts from interrogation.

Oh, and you have not even answered my question. Have you even been to Berlin?

erbse

July 23rd, 2009, 10:56 AM

It's all about aesthetics. Read the official homepage of the donation organisation, if you don't believe it.

berliner-schloss.de (http://berliner-schloss.de)

Nico_Uru

July 24th, 2009, 02:44 AM

Your point fails when you actually talk rubbish. Your statement is a bit like you claiming a blue shirt is actually red, when everyone else see's the red shirt execpt you. This is your delusion.

Your ignorance is astounding, the fact is the "shirt is red" is socially constructed. Red, blue, etc. do not signify the actual colour of x, our socially accepted notion of what red or blue is. There was a famous experiment where a person was put in a room where they showed colours. The colour they showed was lets say, in our parlance, blue. The entire audience said, "red", eventually most of the individuals started to say red, even though they "knew" it was "blue". Who is being delusional here then? Because I do not conform with your, and the majority's "redist" interpretation? Unable, and unwilling to accept the world of the apparent?

The amazing thing is, that you are denying reality here by masking it in a cloud of political ideologies which have no substance outside of your own mind.

You argue as if you aren't...I love it. Well you believe you have the "truth and reality", I don't pretend to be God.

Oh, and you have not even answered my question. Have you even been to Berlin?

Yes I have 2 years ago...and I have many friends who are from Berlin and lived in East Germany as well.

CrayZD

July 24th, 2009, 09:43 AM

You argue as if you aren't...I love it. Well you believe you have the "truth and reality", I don't pretend to be God.

Oh, you don't?

The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.

This reads as if you were the true keeper of wisdom, and everyone else around here is ignorant because they won't accept 'reality' as you defined it.

The fact ist that there are two different points of view, none of them being wrong or right. So you won't convince anyone here of your opinion, as well as we can't convince you of ours. The naked truth is that a building has been demolished and a different one is going to be built at the same place... anything else is left to interpretation.

Justme

July 24th, 2009, 09:55 AM

Your point fails when you actually talk rubbish. Your statement is a bit like you claiming a blue shirt is actually red, when everyone else see's the red shirt execpt you. This is your delusion.

Your ignorance is astounding, the fact is the "shirt is red" is socially constructed. Red, blue, etc. do not signify the actual colour of x, our socially accepted notion of what red or blue is. There was a famous experiment where a person was put in a room where they showed colours. The colour they showed was lets say, in our parlance, blue. The entire audience said, "red", eventually most of the individuals started to say red, even though they "knew" it was "blue". Who is being delusional here then? Because I do not conform with your, and the majority's "redist" interpretation? Unable, and unwilling to accept the world of the apparent?

I love this one, "ignorance". Which is defined as a state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information. :lol: You certainly are ignoring everything everyone posts here.

If I am ignorant in your mind simply because I ignore you, then it proves my point entirely.

You walked right into that one.

:lol:

erbse

July 24th, 2009, 11:39 AM

We need that Nico guy for the German forum. Bringing entertainment to a whole new level.

MikaGe

July 24th, 2009, 12:40 PM

Geez, thing's been goin deep in the last 4 pages...

Ehhmm, just wanna asked why the original castle and Berliner Dom appear darker in those old pics? The dom looks better in reddish tone, imo.

One more thing, I think it's not necessary to remove those commie buildings. I believe there are people gonnabe appreciating it, including me. The uniformity & dullness in massive scale somehow evoke a strange sensation. Whenever I think about Berlin, I never imagine a city with baroque architecture. The ideology perhaps has been obsolete these days, but not the byproducts, such as design & architecture.

Nico_Uru

July 24th, 2009, 08:01 PM

Oh, you don't?

Where have I said I didn't? My implication by pointing that out to JustMe is that I am engaging a partial, political-ideological discussion; at least I have the ability to concede that. I do not believe it is possible to discuss any issues from an "objective" position, however, that is exactly what JustMe is TRYING to do since he has "truth" on his side. So accuse me of something that I did or said not what you think I said or did.

I love this one, "ignorance". Which is defined as a state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information. You certainly are ignoring everything everyone posts here.

Tard-box, if I were ignoring what everyone said on this forum, I wouldn't have even bothered to answer anyone's questions. I heard what some people had to say, and I think its crap. You are still engaging in a logical fallacy to support your non-existent argument.

If I am ignorant in your mind simply because I ignore you, then it proves my point entirely.

Uh-huh you are more than ignorant because your words contradict your actions...how stupid are you?

Jimmy McShane

July 24th, 2009, 08:14 PM

Is this construction going to involve taking the balcony off the Staatsratsgebäude?

Tiaren

July 24th, 2009, 08:19 PM

^^
No, it stays were it is.
Will be funny in the future to see the reconstruction and the original right beside each other.

Justme

July 24th, 2009, 08:51 PM

erbse

July 25th, 2009, 08:26 AM

^ Well said.

taboe

July 25th, 2009, 01:57 PM

This whole project is a disgrace for the city of Berlin. In stead of opting for a spectacular modern building or just renovating the old building, they choose to build a Disney castle... This kind of project just makes me sick :ohno:

What do the Berliners themselves think about this? And I mean the general public, not just on this forum...

CrayZD

July 25th, 2009, 03:44 PM

As a matter of fact, it depends on who is asking.

1.
Infratest dimap, renowned German polling firm, but the poll was done in order of the Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V. that supports the reconstruction. Anyway, one should assume Infratest dimap to be neutral.

Representative poll among the population of Berlin, December 2008:
What kind of development do you prefer for the Schlossplatz area?

58% Rebuild the Stadtschloss
34% Build something completely new
05% PdR shouldn't have been demolished
03% Don't know

Pro reconstruction, by East/West

East Berlin 51%
West Berlin 63%

Pro reconstruction, by age (excerpts)

18-25y 71%
25-30y 69%

^^That's pretty interesting indeed!

2.
Super Illu, an East-German popular magazine

Representative poll in East Berlin, December 2008:
Rebuild the Stadtschloss?

35% Yes
61% No
04% Don't know

To understand the results (especially the pro-modern faction), one should know how Germans think about public investment. Among the 34% who say 'build something completely new', I'd estimate that there are at least 25% who mean 'build something inexpensive'. So they don't take part in the discussion 'modern vs historical', but they dismiss a representative building in general because they think their taxes are just squandered for it.

redstone

July 25th, 2009, 03:53 PM

Many old landmarks and even entire cities and towns (or whole neighbourhoods) had been destroyed in the bombardments of WW2. And many had been rebuilt as it was, and there are some others which are demolished and rebuilt.

Example, the old city centre of Warsaw, which had been rebuilt, with the same bricks soon after. Old palaces and castles were rebuilt as late as the 1990s.

If the said building is (or was) of historical / cultural / religious / special significance, I rather have it rebuilt. But for me, the rebuilding must be as much as possible, an exact duplicate of the building.

The old building is gone, but if the building has had a very significant place in the history of the city, I feel that a rebuilding is better than a new building which is nothing related to the old one. At the least, people can still see it as it was last time.

I don't understand why the mods are not doing anything about this political discussion in this thread. From a thread about the reconstruction of an old building, it had became a debate on communism vs democracy, etc.

erbse

July 25th, 2009, 04:00 PM

The political discussion is ok in this case, I'd say. The thread isn't exactly about the reconstruction itself, but the process of the PdR demolition and the ongoing debate what should follow.

Kampflamm

July 25th, 2009, 08:16 PM

This whole project is a disgrace for the city of Berlin. In stead of opting for a spectacular modern building or just renovating the old building, they choose to build a Disney castle... This kind of project just makes me sick :ohno:

How is it a Disney castle? If we had built a copy of Versailles in the middle of Berlin, I could get your point but that obviously isn't going to be the case.

Pablo323

July 25th, 2009, 09:01 PM

Whoah.

:uh:

taboe

July 25th, 2009, 10:09 PM

How is it a Disney castle? If we had built a copy of Versailles in the middle of Berlin, I could get your point but that obviously isn't going to be the case.

The original one was made by skilled artisans, who spent all their lives working on their skills. Paintings, decorations, statues, etc which are made now will be copies, no matter what, and furthermore the building techniques are very different, so I don't see how this building can be considered a valuable addition to the Berlin landscape...

(Disney may have been a bit exaggerated though:))

Seanna

July 26th, 2009, 04:57 AM

Air Jordan 1 Retro High Ostrich
(http://www.voguetouch.com/)

Here's another Air Jordan I Retro High colorway, this time with a sleek all-black look. Three grades of material have been used for the upper: mesh, full-grain leather, and ostrich leather, made popular by the Ostrich Dunk Lows. They are scheduled for release on July 7, 2009, but you can preorder a pair now on RMK.
Full size pics at Air 23. (http://www.voguetouch.com/)
http://www.pickyourshoes.com/images/shoes/342132-011.jpg
http://www.pickyourshoes.com/images/shoes/343184-441.jpg
http://www.pickyourshoes.com/images/shoes/343184-551.jpg

erbse

July 26th, 2009, 11:10 AM

^ Nice palace.

(Could someone please delete that crap? :rant:)

Utopian

July 26th, 2009, 11:16 PM

It was rather impressive, seeing the Palast der Republik being torn down last year. I guess the site is another empty place in Berlin right now.

I am curious what the new Stadtschloss will look like, especially after I read that the interiour will be completely modern, and also the eastern facade (facing the Spree) will not be a reconstruction, but a glass facade. That's kind of understandable, hence the original eastern facade was partially renaissance; remaining parts of an earlier Stadtschloss (which would be extremely hard to reconstruct).

I hope though that the Schloss won't look as bright and shiny as they depict on the models. On the other hand, when it was originally built around 1700, it would also have looked brand new...

CrayZD

July 27th, 2009, 01:09 PM

I think that's a problem with sandstone. It looks very bright when it's new, darkening naturally over the years - at least if it's not specially treated in any way. We are used to seeing it dark (like the facade of the Berliner Dom), but I guess that formerly every building looked like the rebuilt Frauenkirche in Dresden, for example.

Kampflamm

July 27th, 2009, 01:38 PM

One last point...if the PdR had looked like this, I wouldn't have had a problem with keeping it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Sofia-largo.jpg/800px-Sofia-largo.jpg

Justme

July 27th, 2009, 02:17 PM

^^ That is a cool looking building, what was it?

Kampflamm

July 27th, 2009, 02:20 PM

It's a group of Socialist buildings in Sofia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largo,_Sofia

GEwinnen

July 27th, 2009, 05:35 PM

I guess the site is another empty place in Berlin right now.

klick (http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article1129763/Berlin_hat_auf_dem_Schlossplatz_eine_neue_Spielwiese.html)

http://www.morgenpost.de/multimedia/archive/00410/sei_Wiese_BM_Berlin_410731b.jpg

http://www.morgenpost.de/multimedia/archive/00370/sei_Luftbild_Schlos_370556b.jpg

http://www.morgenpost.de/multimedia/archive/00249/b_ddrhatsniegegeben_249350b.jpg

erbse

July 27th, 2009, 05:52 PM

GDR never existed? Ja, that would've been a dream for erbse :banana:

I'm so lucky one of this terrorist regimes ugliest vestiges disappeared now.

ainttelling

August 11th, 2009, 04:27 AM

I think it looks better without the spires. The old design was way to overladen with kitsch. The unfinished reconstruction points out the real proportions... (I'm going to get killed by Erbse and other nostalgics for this statement :shifty:)
If you think the old design was kitschy you might as well say that all of German historical architecture is just one big giant kitsch.

Chadoh25

August 11th, 2009, 05:08 AM

GDR never existed? Ja, that would've been a dream for erbse :banana:

I'm so lucky one of this terrorist regimes ugliest vestiges disappeared now.

Amen to that! God Bless the Federal Republic of Germany!

hkskyline

September 13th, 2010, 08:46 PM

Germany grapples with future of aging architectural treasures
7 September 2010
Deutsche Welle

Tourists flock to Germany, in part for its old architecture. But as the buildings age, Germany continues to be faced with a difficult question: rebuild them just as they were, or put something new in their place.

For Wilhelm von Boddien, grappling with the issue of reconstruction is part of a day's work. He is the manager of the association for the rebuilding of the historic Berlin City Palace, which was largely destroyed by Allied bombing in World War II and completely demolished in 1950 by East German authorities.

Von Boddien's stance has made him a target for the project's many opponents, who believe it is too expensive and too unnecessarily fixated on the past. Although the German parliament decided in favor of the reconstruction in 2007, work on the palace has been delayed until 2014 due to budget cuts, sparking even more debate about the merit of such a project.

For von Boddien, the value of the project is clear. "What do people look at when they're on vacation and sightseeing in cities? They first go to see the historic areas and not some soulless modern constructions," he said.

Berlin's Museum Island, where the City Palace is located, is historically significant in itself. It is home to the Old Museum, completed in 1828, the Old National Gallery, opened in 1876, and the Berlin Cathedral from the turn of the 20th century. But according to von Boddien, this cannot compensate for the absence of the City Palace.

"The palace may not be everything, but without it, everything is nothing," explained von Boddien, pointing to what he sees as a void in the island's historical composition.

Emotional decisions

Ursula Schirmer from the German Foundation for Monument Protection has some doubts. In her opinion, a reconstructed palace is basically a new building that is financed by public money. She said that when it comes to allocating money, some older buildings needing restoration not stand a chance against the City Palace, simply because they are not spectacular enough.

Schirmer is not sure whether the highly controversial demolition of the Palace of the Republic - which was built under the East German regime on the site of the former Berlin City Palace - was the right decision, as it was a "political" one.

"From the perspective of monument protection, this is a questionable matter - we're still too close to it emotionally," said Schirmer. "It takes a few generations before an objective decision can be made. But such a time frame is simply not considered in the case of some buildings."

Carl Zillich from Bundesstiftung Baukultur - an organization that monitors the relationship between construction in public space and quality of life - said that "every era should leave behind its own impressive architecture and not foster an architectural still-stand."

However, there does not seem to be a consensus on the side of the investors. "Money for the reconstruction of historic buildings can be obtained far more easily than for well-designed new projects," commented Zillich.

Overcoming traumas

According to Zillich, most reconstructions and restorations in Germany were decided on "in the heat of the moment" and were meant to help overcome the trauma of the destruction suffered during World War II. One prominent example is Dresden's Church of Our Lady, although in contrast to the Berlin City Place it was reconstructed using original remaining materials.

Wilhelm von Boddien, however, cannot understand all the hype surrounding the issue of authenticity. Reconstructions have been carried out many times over the ages, he says, and no one is really interested in the fact that the bell tower of St Mark's Basilica in Venice is a reconstruction of the original.

"Since the fall of the Berlin Wall, six million square meters have been allocated to Berlin's modern constructions," said von Boddien. "Why is it such a problem now if we take up just 150 thousand square meters to erect something that matches this historic location?"

Brain power and creativity

The vice-chairman of the association planning to reconstruct the Potsdam City Palace, Hans-Joachim Kuke, holds a similar view.

"Reconstructions are legitimate buildings projects and have always been a significant need for many peoples and nations," said Kuke. "After all, communities are not prepared to give up buildings that are important to their identities."

Kuke believes that reconstructing a building's facade according to the original, but redoing the inside, is also a legitimate approach. "A facade is incredibly important," argued Kuke, adding that most people probably would not want to use an old-fashioned toilet that was reconstructed according to the original design.

"A reconstruction is a highly artistic project - I don't understand why it's often dismissed like this. You need a lot of brain power and creativity to integrate modern features, such as insulation, into a historic reconstruction."

The City Palace has yet to be rebuilt, but with its many historical buildings, Germany will have plenty of other opportunities to choose between new and redone.

The exhibition "The History of Reconstruction; the Construction of History" at the Pinakothek in Munich currently examines societies' decisions to rebuild valuable buildings which had been damaged by time or war. Click through the picture gallery below for some examples.

Botswana

September 14th, 2010, 08:18 AM

Thank God they got rid of that disgusting building. The GDR is responsible for some of the greatest architectural atrocities of the 20th Century.

Justme

September 14th, 2010, 09:15 AM

^^ I agree with the destruction of the old DDR people's palace, which was terrible and ugly and worthy of little but destruction. And, in fact a great deal of DDR architecture was horrendous. But there were a few gleaming lights from the DDR. I am very fond of the TV tower, and last week finally I got the chance to walk up Karl-Marx-Alley. If you ever do walk up this street you would be considered mad by most people to demolish it as it is quite simply a fantastic architectural monument and worthy of preservation.

Back to topic though, I am in favour of the rebuilding of the original city palace, but sadly it is quite a long time to have a vacant lot there until construction begins in 2014.

Galgenvogel

September 14th, 2010, 12:54 PM

Dr.Mabuse

September 14th, 2010, 01:21 PM

GDR never existed? Ja, that would've been a dream for erbse :banana:

I'm so lucky one of this terrorist regimes ugliest vestiges disappeared now.

ha, for the one people the gdr has never existed, for the others it still lives!
Like Misses Honecker :ohno:
http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/2009/10/30/margot-honecker/wir-sind-nicht-totzukriegen.html

But it is disgrace! She did Republikflucht into the ultrafascism state of Chile!:bash: Unbelievable! Because the GDR still exist!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lt1TOOZ_v4

And i guess Uncle Josef has never died and his spirit lives on and himself is still sitting in Moscow.:nuts:

But to the topic. There are so many building which represent the gdr, i don't understand why the gdr-nostalgiers are worrying about that "place". There are still so many Plattenbauten, where people live in, how can be more the gdr rememberd and rerepresentatived?

and sorry for my many gramma and spelling mistakes:)

Bye Place of the Republic and Welcome Stadtschloß! :cheers:

Concrete Stereo

September 14th, 2010, 06:29 PM

http://www.morgenpost.de/multimedia/archive/00249/b_ddrhatsniegegeben_249350b.jpg

great comment on erasing the traces of an unwanted history

Kampflamm

September 14th, 2010, 07:58 PM

How's it great? Just walk a bit further east and you'll find statues of Marx and Engels, Commieblocks and Workers' Palaces (Karl-Marx-Allee).

immillizy_854

September 15th, 2010, 04:41 PM

hehe i do hope that berlin won't tear down all commie buildings...e.g. tv tower ;-)
I like the approach of combining "historical" and contemporary architecture, i love the result of the reconstruction of neues museum...amazing rooms!
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neues_Museum_%28Berlin%29#Wiederaufbau

Yeah, it's one of Berlin's most prized symbols.

I actually think building playful, kiddy architecture, as you say "combining historical and contemporary architecture", is more socialist than the buildings they tear down. Looking at much communist architecture, I notice plain Jane boxes with undetailed, obscure ornamentation. Think the Sony Building in New York, only on smaller proportions.

Union.SLO

September 15th, 2010, 07:56 PM

great comment on erasing the traces of an unwanted history

Don't worry, there are plenty of traces left from that period. Too many IMHO. And most of them will stay there, unless half of the city is demolished.

Concrete Stereo

September 15th, 2010, 09:34 PM

sure (the demolition still is controversial though - personally I'd have very much preferred an inventive reconversion, especially above the reconstruction plans - come on ...)

but my comment was primarily about how the comment was done (in form and language) ... which is very nicely ironic.

'the ddr has never existed'

Luli Pop

September 17th, 2010, 12:32 AM

how many confused forumers!

the "palace" wasn't demolished because it was built by communist.

it was demolished because it's disgustingly ugly!
it made of Berlin an uglier place to live and visit.

Berlin is much nicer now

Dr.Mabuse

September 17th, 2010, 03:26 PM

Hierfür 2 Videos

Ick nenne sie

BERLINER STADTSCHLOSS > "palast" der republik
vdX_YP9_O3g

und

Kontra dem AsPestschuppen; Pro dem Stadtschloss
LAlqzuc6HgE

apinamies

September 17th, 2010, 11:04 PM

I don't understand why Germans think that GDR was bad thing. I'm sure that East Germany was great place to life. If were German I would be proud of my country's history.

Chainedwolf

September 18th, 2010, 12:56 AM

Well done.

Kampflamm

September 18th, 2010, 10:01 AM

I don't understand why Germans think that GDR was bad thing. I'm sure that East Germany was great place to life. If were German I would be proud of my country's history.

Yeah, it was so awesome that they had to build a wall to keep people from coming in. :lol:

Dr.Mabuse

September 18th, 2010, 10:59 AM

Yeah, it was so awesome that they had to build a wall to keep people from coming in. :lol:

:rofl:

You may think that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a great place to live in aswell.
Here a funny thing i readed once. Sometimes tourists from china visit NorthKorea to get a feeling how china was back 40 years ago. They see it, shock and don't stay for long in North Korea :lol:

*edit* found the text :)

Chinesische Touristengruppen reisen nach Nordkorea, um sich in einer anachronistischen Welt zu gruseln. "So war es bei uns während der Kulturrevolution", sagen sie, und beeilen sich, in die Lichter- und Glitzerwelt ihrer Heimat zurückzukehren.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,626966,00.html

Scientists say Kim Jong-il has a secret. During night North Korea disappears. They don't know how the loved leader do that! ^^

http://www.osrm.ch/~AHeutsch/wakko/wakka.php?wakka=Unterricht/GeoEntwicklungslaenderA2/Nordkorea/files&get=nordkorea_bei_nacht.jpg

Union.SLO

September 18th, 2010, 10:40 PM

^^ But he's not precise enough. Barely noticeable spot of light reflects out of Pyongyang.:baeh3:

Justme

September 19th, 2010, 04:57 PM

great comment on erasing the traces of an unwanted history

It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.

Justme

September 19th, 2010, 05:00 PM

I don't understand why Germans think that GDR was bad thing. I'm sure that East Germany was great place to life. If were German I would be proud of my country's history.

Use your head a little before writing. If the DDR was such a great thing, why did they need to build a fücken great big wall to keep the people in like prisoners, guard that wall, and shoot anyone who tries to escape.

Kampflamm

September 19th, 2010, 05:24 PM

It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.

And because it was full of asbestos.

DHLawrence

September 19th, 2010, 08:31 PM

It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.

This transcends politics. I'm quite left-leaning and I won't miss this concrete block in the slightest.

Concrete Stereo

September 20th, 2010, 12:19 PM

It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.

It seems you're the one politizing my statement. I have the same opinion about Zeppelinfeld in Nürenberg (or Prora at Insel Rügen, Palacul Populi in Bucharest, Linnahalle in Talinn) - these are traces, partly scars of history. Of course, when two states become one, many buildings become obsolete (there's a left-over east-german media campus in Berlin which has been unuccupied for 20 years now and is currently only housing Club Rechenzentrum). But I think - architecturally speaking - they have missed an opportunity to make a monument on the unity of Germany - instead of making a statement of assimilation. And just: to make architecture with great meaning. Now it's tabula rasa all over again.

The same discussion can be had about the Plattenbausiedlungen - this is 60 years of history, generations grew up in it, these are very meaningful places to very many people. There's nothing as changeable as the meaning of places and of architecture - and history taught us it's not always a good plan to follow fashion by bulldozer (there's a lot of nostalgia about our old cities - but we forgot they were considered a shithole and just got better). It's better to adapt than to rebuild.

Karasek

September 20th, 2010, 10:00 PM

Use your head a little before writing. If the DDR was such a great thing, why did they need to build a fücken great big wall to keep the people in like prisoners, guard that wall, and shoot anyone who tries to escape.

And since the wall came down more than 2 million people left the region. Obviously it's not much better now.

Justme

September 21st, 2010, 04:21 AM

It seems you're the one politizing my statement. I have the same opinion about Zeppelinfeld in Nürenberg (or Prora at Insel Rügen, Palacul Populi in Bucharest, Linnahalle in Talinn) - these are traces, partly scars of history. Of course, when two states become one, many buildings become obsolete (there's a left-over east-german media campus in Berlin which has been unuccupied for 20 years now and is currently only housing Club Rechenzentrum). But I think - architecturally speaking - they have missed an opportunity to make a monument on the unity of Germany - instead of making a statement of assimilation. And just: to make architecture with great meaning. Now it's tabula rasa all over again.

The same discussion can be had about the Plattenbausiedlungen - this is 60 years of history, generations grew up in it, these are very meaningful places to very many people. There's nothing as changeable as the meaning of places and of architecture - and history taught us it's not always a good plan to follow fashion by bulldozer (there's a lot of nostalgia about our old cities - but we forgot they were considered a shithole and just got better). It's better to adapt than to rebuild.

I couldn't care less if something is meaningful or not to some small minority group. If it's ugly, it goes. This building was ugly, and it's gone. No politics from my side.

Justme

September 21st, 2010, 04:29 AM

And since the wall came down more than 2 million people left the region. Obviously it's not much better now.

Really, is this your own distorted version of history?

At 1989 just before the wall came down, the population of East Berlin was 1,279,212 and West Berlin was 2,130,525. Now, together this makes 3,409,737

The current population estimate is 3,442,194 which, at least according to maths suggests an increase. Where on earth do you get your "more than two million" from?

As for your "Not much better now" comment, then you must think it a much better life to be shot for trying to cross a city, or imprisoned for thinking wrong thoughts. Maybe you don't really get it, but the DDR government executed people who tried to cross the city. And it was so bad in the East, that people would rather risk execution for them and their own families to get out.

Karasek

September 21st, 2010, 08:53 AM

Really, is this your own distorted version of history?

At 1989 just before the wall came down, the population of East Berlin was 1,279,212 and West Berlin was 2,130,525. Now, together this makes 3,409,737

The current population estimate is 3,442,194 which, at least according to maths suggests an increase. Where on earth do you get your "more than two million" from?

As for your "Not much better now" comment, then you must think it a much better life to be shot for trying to cross a city, or imprisoned for thinking wrong thoughts. Maybe you don't really get it, but the DDR government executed people who tried to cross the city. And it was so bad in the East, that people would rather risk execution for them and their own families to get out.

Ahm, maybe you don't know this, but the wall didn't just seperate East and West Berlin but also East and West Germany. The wall in Berlin wasn't the onlys wall errected by the Commies. And when I replied to your post you mentioned the GDR and not only Berlin.
But, you know, if someone argues that the GDR was so bad because the system had to imprison its people the logical conclusion is that, without the wall and the Commie system, the people would stay. But they don't stay, they still leave the region. In 40 years of Communism ~4 mio people left Eastern Germany, in 20 years of Capitalism (yes, a bad word these days, I know), another ~2 mio left. That's the same horrible quota. To the people economic pressure isn't that much better than political pressure. The only difference: during Communism people "fled" the country, now they "migrate".

Kampflamm

September 21st, 2010, 09:10 AM

I don't really get your point. Of course people have left the east since the economic conditions are better in the west. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion about how bad the SED-leadership was. After all this phenomenon can be seen throughout eastern Europe but my guess is most people are happy that they're no longer told what to do by the Communist authorities.

Concrete Stereo

September 21st, 2010, 10:04 AM

Well, there's always still the Ostalgia back to the day things were simple, people were educated and things were done for the best for everyone (or at least that suggestion was helt high)

anyway, there's never black and white, there's just history. If you grew up in a shithole, this shithole is precious to you. To be perfectly honest, I just know the present generation and they're very happy with the current status quo of Berlin - a capital where space is dirty cheap and with enough rough edges to house the best parties of Europe. And with the offices of the best people in art, design, advertisement and architecture.

@justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location, and it would fit fine to the present Alexanderplatz area (with the mix of cummunist plattenbau and massive shopping centres). It just got very detoriated after the Wende.

http://eastgermany.info/palace2.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2rx8z7l.jpg

after the Wende:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/01/09/arts/Ouro1650.jpg

I've never seen pictures of the inside though, strangely enough. Anyone?

Tiaren

September 21st, 2010, 01:40 PM

@justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location...

It didn't fit the location at all! Right in the historical heart of Berlin, in between the museums and the Cathedral and most of all, as the prelude to the royal/imperial boulevard Unter den Linden it had no place there at all!

But I agree, that brand new built it wasn't ugly at all. I actually find it classy! :)

Justme

September 21st, 2010, 04:13 PM

Ahm, maybe you don't know this, but the wall didn't just seperate East and West Berlin but also East and West Germany.

Well duh. Thanks for the 101 history lesson.

The wall in Berlin wasn't the onlys wall errected by the Commies. And when I replied to your post you mentioned the GDR and not only Berlin.

We were talking about DDR Berlin, not the whole country. I think the subject title of this thread also gave that away. The population drop after the wall came down was continuing even before, and it's no wonder with how the communists destroyed the local industry.

But, you know, if someone argues that the GDR was so bad because the system had to imprison its people the logical conclusion is that, without the wall and the Commie system, the people would stay. But they don't stay, they still leave the region. In 40 years of Communism ~4 mio people left Eastern Germany, in 20 years of Capitalism (yes, a bad word these days, I know), another ~2 mio left. That's the same horrible quota. To the people economic pressure isn't that much better than political pressure. The only difference: during Communism people "fled" the country, now they "migrate".

Are you for real? The wall was put in place because people wanted to leave on mass to the far better West. There was no doubt about this. People risked their lives and many lost them trying to get out. A place must be pretty damn horrible to need a giant wall to keep people in, and guard that wall with dogs and machine guns and trip mines. And it must be so horrible living there that people would risk crossing that just to get out.

As for the loss after the wall came down, that is not because of the introduction of capitalism, but because the communist system destroyed the local economies on such a grand scale (as they have always done in every other communist nation) that there was simply no work any more. After unification, you could either sit on your thumbs in a depressed ex communist wasteland or vote with your feet and move to the far more prosperous west where work was awaiting.

The fact that the economy in the East is still so depressed after all these years shows exactly how bad the communists ran the place when they were in control.

Justme

September 21st, 2010, 04:15 PM

Well, there's always still the Ostalgia back to the day things were simple, people were educated and things were done for the best for everyone (or at least that suggestion was helt high)

This is a common effect that most people experience. Most people, wherever they are or come from in the world, have fond memories of their youth or their past despite what actually went down.

@justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location, and it would fit fine to the present Alexanderplatz area (with the mix of cummunist plattenbau and massive shopping centres). It just got very detoriated after the Wende.

http://eastgermany.info/palace2.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2rx8z7l.jpg

after the Wende:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/01/09/arts/Ouro1650.jpg

I've never seen pictures of the inside though, strangely enough. Anyone?

I have to say, even with those older photos showing it in it's prime, it's still one of the ugliest things I have ever seen in my life.