For the Stadtschloss reconstruction project, go to this thread:

BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction - "Humboldt-Forum" (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1390928)

Berliners rally for communist-era 'palace'

BERLIN, Jan 16, 2006 (AFP) - One of communist East Germany's ugliest but best loved buildings has a date with a wrecking ball in the coming weeks, sparking an outpouring of nostalgia for still cherished aspects of life in the shadow of the Berlin Wall.

The Palace of the Republic, a Socialist Realist monstrosity of bronze mirrored windows and steel girders, once housed both the rubber-stamp parliament and an entertainment complex that was unparalleled behind the Iron Curtain.

Easterners, who were bussed in from across the country, have fond memories of a giant dance floor on hydraulic lifts, bowling allies, a wine bar, a theater, cafes and an international list of concert headliners including Harry Belafonte and Carlos Santana.

But Berlin's current aspirations to spruce up its city center, a confused landscape scarred by a tumultuous history, have led to plans to tear down the now gutted Palace and rebuild an imperial Castle in its place.

Many easterners have blasted the decision, taken by the federal parliament after a decade-long debate, as insensitive and pointless.

The chairwoman of a group dedicated to saving the Palace, Liselotte Schulz, believes that old Cold War battles are still being fought over this piece of prime real estate in the heart of the reunited city.

"They want to destroy any trace of the GDR," she said in an interview outside the Palace, using the acronym for communist East Germany's official name.

"And 20 percent unemployment and disappearing companies is what they have to show for it. It is outrageous that they're wasting working people's money without a clue what they want to do now."

Schulz, like many easterners, said she does not mourn the Stalinist state but misses the security and sense of solidarity under communism, which gave way to waves of layoffs and bankruptcies in the post-unification years.

"People had support with their worries and fears and not even the Church manages to do that today," she said.

Many have projected that ambivalence about the new Germany onto the condemned Palace.

The building's cavernous halls, now stripped of asbestos, have also captured the imagination of a younger generation in recent years with a series of art installations, some of which attracted huge crowds to the hip "new" venue.

But the city-state of Berlin and the federal government are banking on the construction of a more "aesthetic" cultural center on the site, behind replicas of the facade of the Hohenzollern Castle, the former residence of the kaisers.

In 1950, the communists ripped down the sumptuous Baroque building -- which had sustained heavy damage from Allied bombing in World War II -- in a blow to a symbol of Prussian pomp and militarism.

The city fathers now dream of restoring the elegant continuity of the grand Unter den Linden boulevard, which once culminated in the Castle and the matching, and still standing, Protestant cathedral.

A leader of the local chapter of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, Frank Henkel, calls the Palace a "Socialist eyesore".

"There is still a gaping wound in the heart of Berlin. That is why the city needs the Castle," he said.

But although the plans are in motion, thousands of easterners say they will not let the Palace go without a fight and have staged a series of protests.

"It would be complete nonsense to build a castle here, you might as well bring back the kaiser," fumed Schulz, who worked as an electrical technician in East Germany.

"Both the Castle ruins and now the ruins made of the Palace are about an ideology that seeks to eliminate the traces of what came before," said cabaret artist Peter Ensikat. "What started with the Kaiser's Castle is continuing with the Palace as a farce."

The only vague plans for the new Castle and all but non-existent financing for what could be a 780-million-euro (947-million-dollar) project have compounded the anger.

City authorities have earmarked 12 million euros for the destruction of the Palace alone, but acknowledge the tab could run to 20 million euros by the time they have finished early next year.

The gaping hole in the ground will be filled with sand and water, then topped with planted grass.

The chief city development official, Ingeborg Junge-Reyer, assured there would be other recreational uses until building finally begins on the Castle, as well as sections reserved for archeological digs and information panels on the future of the site.

"We know it is not enough to put in a lawn," she told reporters.

For Schulz, the fraught debate reflects Germany's enduring difficulty in dealing with its history.

"The Germans have a fractured relationship with their past," she said. "Just look at our architecture and you see that."

Goodbye Palace :wave:
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5886/32159843dt.jpg


Welcome back Castle of Berlin


www.berliner-schloss.de
www.berliner-stadtschloss.de

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5314/200511032346330ze.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621204415.jpg

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621230143.jpg

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621204449.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20030801223646.jpg

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621204543.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20030802145305.jpg

Good riddance!

Watch the deconstruction live via Webcam!

http://www.dhm.de/webcams/pics/cam1_large.jpg

http://www.dhm.de/zcam/

I can't waut to see stadtschloss rebuilt.That was an amazing palace!

:eek2:Incredible!:eek2:

I can't waut to see stadtschloss rebuilt.That was an amazing palace!

Me too, but be have to wait another 15 years to see it standing :cry:

Before:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120104941.jpg

After:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105046.jpg

Before:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105852.jpg

After:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105629.jpg

Before:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120110213.jpg

After:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105238.jpg

The deconstruction has made progress so far
http://img492.imageshack.us/img492/9339/1big6xn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Good to see it coming down. Even a lawn will be an improvement. The impulse to preserve it is deranged.

Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself.

I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten

Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself.

I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten

This doesn't have anything to do with uncomfortable memories, just with aesthetic. The palace is an ugly building that doesn't fit in the historic center of Berlin. There are enought memorials, museums and buildings which remind us of the GDR. Besides there is nothing historic in the Palace anymore.
The "Stadtschloss" stood there for 400 years the palace on the other hand has a history of only 14 years.

The parts of history that involve hideous buildings should be remembered through photographs only. In any case it wasn't a "palace of the people" it was a palace of communist military tyranny.

Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself.

I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten

What are you smoking? We're reminded of our mistakes each and every day, besides, there are plenty of Commie buildings around, even after the "People's Palace" ( :laugh: ) is torn down.

Example:

Staatsratsgebäude, right next to the "Palace".

http://idw-online.de/pages/de/newsimage?id=19059&size=screen

Staatsratsgebäude is on the upper right:

http://www.luftschiffreise.de/bilder/zf-m-island-large.jpg

Other commie gems:

http://www.luftschiffreise.de/bilder/zf-alex2-large.jpg

http://www.luftschiffreise.de/bilder/zf-alex1-large.jpg

Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression

What else but not a military oppressive regime was the GDR in your opinion? One example for its oppressive nature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_1953_in_East_Germany

Just for the sake of comparison

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20060211153112.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20060211153148.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20060211153230.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20060211153439.jpg

and now (those with a heart condition should not look at the following pics)


http://www.dhm.de/webcams/pics/cam1_large.jpg

http://www.tagblatt.de/tagblatt/archiv/2006/02/13/palast5.jpg

http://www.tagblatt.de/tagblatt/archiv/2006/02/13/palast4.jpg

http://www.tagblatt.de/tagblatt/archiv/2006/02/13/palast6.jpg

http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~noth/_bilder/bb0602/red_152_5226.jpg

http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~noth/_bilder/bb0602/red_152_5229.jpg

Wow I am so glad I saw this thread. It really is fantastic that Germany is rebuilding some of it's old gems! Hopefully more commie buildings will get the axe :banana:

Good for Berlin.
Reminds of rebuilding the Frauenkirche in Dresden.
Enough european cities have been half destroyed by "modernity", with monstrous buildings that really make you scared only by looking at them. Not only in the East.
Visit Amsterdam and look at the townhall (built ca 1984) and the surrounding neighbourhood. They destroyed several wonderful old blocks for it. Like cutting out the heart of a human and replacing an icecold stone for it.

oh wow!!!

it looks much nicer than the current building, heh

Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself.

I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten
I disagree . . . I think the Germans are well aware of their past. You only have to look at some of the aerials of Berlin to realize how much the past has cost them.

Great project and hopefully more to come...

Well done Berlin :cheers:

Is the castle being rebuilt using the same materials as in the original?

^^ Yes, the historic architecture of the Palace is documented in such detail through plans and photos, that it can be precisely reconstructed through traditional handicraft work.
Approximately seventy percent of the figurative sculptures from the Palace’s exterior still exist. Nevertheless, the stones of the cornices, windows, columns, and capitals were largely lost and only fragments are to be found in the storerooms of the museums and government offices. Copying them is relatively simple.

So it is a complete rebuild of both the exterior and interior? How much is this going to cost and what will its use be afterward, a museum/tourist attraction?

Fascinating project, wish we'd rebuild some of our lost gems back!

Shame, boo to Berlin.

Though the legitimacy of the "Peoples" Parliament is without question, this just smacks of a let's show 'em who's boss. The East German parliament could have been kept as a museum/monument.

this just smacks of a let's show 'em who's boss.

That's right and next we'll enslave those Ossis! ;)

So it is a complete rebuild of both the exterior and interior?

The interior will be largely planned in a modern style. Only the most important historic suites will be rebuilt, but in a simpler form. Of the almost 1,000 rooms, less than 100 belong to this category. The Bundestag laid down in its decision, that the exterior of the Palace, that is the three baroque facades and the Schlüter Courtyard, should be reconstructed true to their original appearance. Wherever it can be reconciled with the plans for use, the historic suites are to rebuilt in their original format , albeit in a simpler form. Their completion will thereby be made possible for later generations.



How much is this going to cost and what will its use be afterward, a museum/tourist attraction?


The construction costs, which total altogether 670 million Euros, will be financed as follows:

Private and Institutional Investors: 280 million Euros
Small holders: 80 million Euros
Government: 230 million Euros.
Construction of Palace Façades (donations) 80 million Euros.
GRAND TOTAL: 670 million Euros.

Note: It doesn't include the constructions of the rooms.
The reconstruction of one room would cost between 3 - 30 million Euros.

Thanks, Lucky :)

Wow, so this is approaching a €1bn project, thats an incredible peice of conservation work! I admire the dedication to the project especially the private investment. What will the end use be for this amazing thing?

The Castle will become a part of the so called "Humboldt Forum". A building for art, science and communication. Together with the Museumisland (http://www.museumsinsel-berlin.de/) it will besome the biggest cultural place for art in the world.


Some more historic photos of the castle

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6962/084schlossinsel19136sn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7813/1930luftbildschloss0lc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/6073/081berlin19397ns.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8295/095eosanderfrontkupfergraben2f.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

^^ Those are some nice pre-war pics.

Thx!

More Renderings

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1987/134schlossplatz0kk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/2743/135schlossplatznacht6os.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8295/095eosanderfrontkupfergraben2f.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Hmm! the castle doesnt look very "yellow" in this pic.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/Pomerania2/images/berlinluft6.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/Pomerania2/images/berlinluft3.jpg

Wow, that new palace is beautiful. It's a good idea to rebuild it as that other People's Palace is terrible. It's not suitable for dt Berlin; it's the kind of building commonly found besides highways in suburbia. They should rebuild more of the beautiful buildings destroyed in WWII.

BTW, what happenned to the original palace? WWII or commies?

after the ww2 the palace was destroyed
and the GDR destroyed it completely

http://www.kultur-netz.de/kunst/kemlein/schloss2.jpg

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,112730_6,00.jpg

http://www.stadtbild-berlin.de/Quiz/Bilder/Schlosssprengung.jpg

Fake, lies, ignorance of the past, replacing a palace of the people with a palace of a repressive government, devaluation pof genuine heritage. In a few years time no one will know whats old and whats new in germany. i think this project stinks.

"Palace of the people" :ohno: You obviously don't have a clue or you're a Communist. The people had nothing to say in East Germany, as a matter of fact they were prisoners in their own country.

Is the bell tower on St Mark's Square in Venice a fake in your opinion as well? Because it had to be rebuilt in the early 20th century

http://www.cheapvenice.com/saint-mark-bell-tower.jpg

Is the bell tower on St Mark's Square in Venice a fake in your opinion as well? Because it had to be rebuilt in the early 20th century
Sorry, but you can't compare the two. The rebuilding of Campanile started almost immediatly after it had collapsed in 1902 and was opened to the public 10 years later. The remains of the castle in Berlin were intentionally destroyed AND replaced with another building that represents an era in German history.

When I went to Berlin last year for the Christopher St Parade (which was a lot of fun) I actually was disapointed with Berlin as a city.

We stayed in the former West Berlin but it still had a 'commie' feel to it. Maybe this is German law on things like opening on Sundays and stuff but things shut early, not at all on sundays, it was like stepping back into the 1970's.

I think Berlin should be trying to rebuild some of beautiful buildings that were destroyed either by the war or the communists.

Even when new build has gone up, say on potsdammer platz somehow they managed to make the former swinging centre of Berlin into a place with less humanity than Canary Wharf or La Defense.

Berlin should be making a bigger play on its hedonistic reputation with cabaret and roaring 20's stuff.

Fake, lies, ignorance of the past, replacing a palace of the people with a palace of a repressive government, devaluation pof genuine heritage. In a few years time no one will know whats old and whats new in germany. i think this project stinks.

I don't understand the political stance you are making here. This is a reconstrcution of a beautiful building that once graced the city and was sadly destroyed. When completed, it will be used as an art gallery and museum for the population and visitors and is perfectly situated for this role on an island known as "Muesum Island".

To be honest, when I first heard about this development, I was a little dissapointed that the replacement building would be a reconstruction of an older building rather than something new. But after visiting Berlin, I realized that with so much destruction during WWII and the Cold War, Berlin has very few grand historical buildings left, especially when compared to it's past. It also has a plethera of modern structures which is what the city is now famous for.

Berlin would benifit from the grace of this new (old) building. It's in a perfect location and would bring some of the past glory of Berlin that was lost.

I never had any issues with the destruction of the old "Peoples Palace". This structure was simply ugly, and was totally out of place in its location. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of other reminders of East Berlins communist past.

As for the reconstruction of damaged or destroyed buildings, I can't see any real problem with this. It has been done before in Germany and many other countrys and usually with great success.

London was lucky to have much of its historical masterpieces in tack. Berlin was not, and this was once one of the grandest cities in Europe. I think this is a positive step for Berlin. It replaces a terribly ugly building that has no place in it's location with a beautiful building that will be incredibly popular after it is complete.

The first crane :cheers:

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3940/53428518if.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

current chaos...

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/3717/54078412ej.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2426/060520b019cy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4822/060520b093oi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2551/060520b035qv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

the ruins of the old castle
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9269/060520b088fo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Source: http://www.ekunkel.de/

http://www.globalphotos.org/berlin/20060506/IMG_0018.jpg

it looks ugly anyways.. so GOOD RIDDANCE!

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3686/dompalastddp75x50rt7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I don't understand the political stance you are making here. This is a reconstrcution of a beautiful building that once graced the city and was sadly destroyed.
It's not only a reconstruction of the old Berlin City Palace, it's a reconstruction of the old symbol of Prussian and German imperialism, that leaded into WW1 and WW2. Beautiful to eyes, but certainly not to a lot of memories.

This replacement has a clear message:
A symbol of German Imperialism wins over a symbol of the German Democratic Republic!
Of course the GDR was not an ideal system, but old Imperial/Nazi Prussia/Germany caused more than 100 Mln deaths worldwide, incomparable more than the number of GDR victims.

So ignoring and enjoying?

I'm sad that this palace will be destroyed.

It's a nonsense building in that area, anyway it is a symbol of an era.. the cold war.

I'm of full support for the new "Stadtschloss" - and I agree that there is enough "East German" heritage elsewhere in the city for those nostalgics, who complain about the demise of this ugly building. The 'People's Palace' shouldn't have been there in the first place, and most East Germans never liked it anyway back then, so I don't understand where these people are coming from, criticising the destruction of it.

How many people opposed Potsdamer Platz before it was built?... and how many praise it now?..... How many people complained about the new Haupt-Bahnhof (Berlin's new Central Station)?... and how many agree now that it's a fantastic building?... I could go on and on, but the answer is always the same: a lot of people convert from critics to supporters! But unfortunately many of those don't learn in due course, and they keep criticising other new developments again and again.

Berlin has always changed, and a metropolis like Berlin (or like any other major city in the world) should never stand still. Rather they always have to reinvent themselves.

The 'People's Palace' is not old enough to claim 'historic protection' or 'national heritage' status.... However, the Stadtschloss would have had that status (if it wasn't willfully destroyed the Communists).

.... just my point of view. ;)

Good riddance. The imperial palace will be beautiful!

R. I. P.
Palace of the Republic
1976-2006

It was a very ugly building, but it has been reported to have housed 2 large auditoriums, art galleries, restaurants, and a bowling alley. Some Berlinians are partially saddened by its demolition by now. The rebuilt Berlin City Palace is going to change that.

It's not only a reconstruction of the old Berlin City Palace, it's a reconstruction of the old symbol of Prussian and German imperialism, that leaded into WW1 and WW2. Beautiful to eyes, but certainly not to a lot of memories.

This replacement has a clear message:
A symbol of German Imperialism wins over a symbol of the German Democratic Republic!
Of course the GDR was not an ideal system, but old Imperial/Nazi Prussia/Germany caused more than 100 Mln deaths worldwide, incomparable more than the number of GDR victims.

So ignoring and enjoying?

I do not understand your complaints about the symbol of German imperialism. First of all, for me it is clearly not a symbol of German imperialism because a) Germany's imperial past is of rather modest importance (and I am really talkin of the imperialism before WWI, since the Stadtschloss was never a Nazi symbol) and b) the symbolic character of the building as such is negligible. In fact you have to bear in mind that many of the beautiful and historical buildings we admire have a rather doubtful past or symbolic background. People admire the Pyramides in Egypt, the Coloseum in Rome or Versailles. And many people forget that these buildings were built as a symbol of power of the respective regimes - and these regimes were neither democratic nor peaceful.

I think it's a good thing that it is getting destroyed. It's an eyesore and doesn't belong there. For those that are worried that this building won't be remembered, and it's part of history... don't worry. I am sure in the new museum it will be mentioned, and maybe a whole section will be given off to that era.
In Moscow they are doing the same with Hotel Russia, which is right by the Kremlin. A lot of people have memories of Hotel Russia, including my parents who got married there.
But the place is an eyesore and doesn't belong. It is being dismantled and on that site they are planning on rebuilding the old city. A lot a like between these 2 projects.

It's not only a reconstruction of the old Berlin City Palace, it's a reconstruction of the old symbol of Prussian and German imperialism, that leaded into WW1 and WW2. Beautiful to eyes, but certainly not to a lot of memories.

This replacement has a clear message:
A symbol of German Imperialism wins over a symbol of the German Democratic Republic!
Of course the GDR was not an ideal system, but old Imperial/Nazi Prussia/Germany caused more than 100 Mln deaths worldwide, incomparable more than the number of GDR victims.

So ignoring and enjoying?

If the GDR was democratic, then Dolly Parton's breasts are natural. And please spare me this typical "imperial Germany is bad :blahblah:" whining. The Hohenzollerns had nothing to do with Nazism, so don't blame Hitler's crimes on them. The GDR locked up its own citizens and shot anyone who tried to escape.

Here's a bit of a history lesson for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_The_Great

Great leader who turned Prussia into a superpower. Even contemporary politicans could learn a thing or two from him.

If the GDR was democratic, then Dolly Parton's breasts are natural. And please spare me this typical "imperial Germany is bad :blahblah:" whining. The Hohenzollerns had nothing to do with Nazism, so don't blame Hitler's crimes on them. The GDR locked up its own citizens and shot anyone who tried to escape.

Here's a bit of a history lesson for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_The_Great

Great leader who turned Prussia into a superpower. Even contemporary politicans could learn a thing or two from him.The GDR replaced the German Nazi regime in eastern Germany, and, compared with Hitler's Germany, it was a peaceful country, despite the 125 border victims during the 37+ years of the cold war. Nazi Germans killed millions.
How many wars the GDR led worldwide, comparing with USA, the self-proclaimed world's Number 1 democracy? How many Arab people were killed by Israeli border soldiers since 1948? 1000? 10000? 100000? ... or isn't Israel a democracy?

BTW ... East/West Germany border shootings.
A question: we know, that 125 were killed by GDR border soldiers, but how many times W. Germans (BGS) used their guns? Until 1974 more than 700 times. You didn't know? How many until the re-unification, and how many were killed? Still a state secret!

***

Don't restrict imperial Prussia and Germany to Nazism and Hitler! Should you forget WW1 and, as example only, "Partitions of Poland"?

Wikipedia as historical source???? The best joke I ever heard. Hahaha, good maybe for ignorants! No wonder you are talking rubbish.
How Prussia came into being, and how Prussia expanded? Take a few good historical books, including Slavic peoples' ones, learn Prussian-Polish and East-Prussian history after 1200, then come again.

The GDR replaced the German Nazi regime in eastern Germany, and, compared with Hitler's Germany, it was a peaceful country, despite the 125 border victims during the 37+ years of the cold war. Nazi Germans killed millions.

Compared to Nazi Germany every country can be considered "peaceful." How many "border victims" did West Germany cause? That's right, none.


How many wars the GDR led worldwide, comparing with USA, the self-proclaimed world's Number 1 democracy? How many Arab people were killed by Israeli border soldiers since 1948? 1000? 10000? 100000? ... or isn't Israel a democracy?

Don't see what Israel has to do with the Palast in particular or the GDR in general. FYI, the GDR participated in the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 68. Oh yes, what a truly peaceful country it was. :|


W. Germans (BGS) used their guns? Until 1974 more than 700 times. You didn't know? How many until the re-unification, and how many were killed? Still a state secret!

I really have no clue what you're talking about. The BGS is more than just a border guard, that's why they've been renamed Bundespolizei (federal police). So you're complaining about the police using their guns? :dunno:


Wikipedia as historical source???? The best joke I ever heard. Hahaha, good maybe for ignorants! No wonder you are talking rubbish.
How Prussia came into being, and how Prussia expanded? Take a few good historical books, including Slavic peoples' ones, learn Prussian-Polish and East-Prussian history after 1200, then come again.

Are you a linguistic genius? Do you speak the old Baltic language of the Prussians? And again wtf does all of this have to do with the Palast? Fact of the matter is that you're just trying to downplay the crimes of an atrocious government which locked up its own people while you're throwing mud at a democratic western government at the same time. Really shows your true character.

oh dear. Looks as though we have another communist on our hands. Anna, wake up and smell the rotting cadavers. Communism resulted in millions of deaths around the world.

Yes, there may have only been 125 victims through the GDR killing people who tried to leave the country, but that is 125 too many. How many people are shot trying to leave a democratic country? Zero. And don't forget to keep in mind that the number would be much higher if more people were brave enough to try and escape. But death is a damn good deterrent.

If the GDR was so great, then why did they need to build such a wide and defended wall to keep people in? Why did they need to use death as a reason to stop people leaving? Anyone from the West could enter the East, but not the other way around. And then they lied by giving it a name to suggest it was a defence from Westerners entering the Eastern side.

Wake up.

Hey!! This thread is about an ugly building that will be replaced by a beautiful one!

edited

They will probably not be really impressed with the Schloss once its finished

It's a beautiful building. Are there beautiful buildings all over Europe? Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city. It'll be one of the nicest palaces in Germany and it'll make a great ensemble along with the Dom, the Museum's Island and the end of Unter den Linden (Kommandantur, Zeughaus).

If people want to see remnants of the GDR and it's realsocialist architecture, they can go to Alexanderplatz. Heck, right next door to the Schloss will be the Staatsratsgebäude, the place where important decisions were actually made. I've said it before, the Palast housed a neutered parliament which had no say whatsoever so I don't see why it has any true historic value.

edited

I see your point Checker, but I still don't agree. If the Palace was a beautiful building, then by all means, keep it. But it really was butt ugly. Memories are all very good, but why keep ugly ones.

It's simply time to move on.

some more pics:

thats how it will look like after the palace is gone:

http://www.meinberlin.de/fototouren/bilder/811/Schlossplatzwiese_7x5.jpg

a vision for the use of the space until the Schloss is back:

http://www.meinberlin.de/fototouren/bilder/811/Schwebe-Museum_7x5.jpg

Right now it looks like this:

http://www.meinberlin.de/fototouren/bilder/811/Dom_Palast_ddp_75x50.jpg

how its going to look in the future:

http://www.meinberlin.de/fototouren/bilder/811/Ecke_Steil_75x50.jpg

the old interior:

http://www.meinberlin.de/fototouren/bilder/811/Schlosshof_7x5.jpg

here are some more pics:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/fototouren/tour/index.asp?Tour=811

^
Are they realy going to build a glass roof over the innner square? That would be awesome!

^
Are they realy going to build a glass roof over the innner square? That would be awesome!

No, this is a rendering of the old castle.
I dont know if they are going to put a roof over the new one

...

^
Are they realy going to build a glass roof over the innner square? That would be awesome!

Yes they will build a glass roof in the Schlüter Courtyard.

From the offical Website:
The Schlüter Courtyard, covered over with a glass and steel roof, is intended to become the most beautiful festival hall of Berlin. With an area of about 4,000 square meters, it is ideally suited for large gatherings. During the construction of the glass roof, acoustical experts will be at work from the very beginning to obtain the best sound for this space.

it will look similar to the Zeughaus on the other side
http://www.panorama-photography.com/pano_1.htm#

It sounds great.......

in china they'd have razed that old place in 2 weeks...

in china they'd have razed that old place in 2 weeks...

ha ha..

ha ha..

I heard yesterday news that the Palace will not be built in the next years, that they stoped the project ...is that true????

If it is I cant believe whats the problem of those german politics !!!!

This needs to be reconstructed NOW !!!!!!!

Bring back all historic buildings in central Berlin !!!!!!:bash:

ya its true

No bring back all the old buildings in all European countries !!!

Why the hell cant we do some of this in Britain for christ sake grrrrrrr

Germany lost so much historic architecture during WW2, and Berlin's finances are not in very good shape today to embark on too many grandiose projects anymore. In time, the palace will be restored. We just need to be patient. :)

This seems to be one of the major projects in the world that will bring back a really old grand structure! I only wish more cities around the world could construct these really beautiful artistic buildings, because I think they're much more valuable than certain other modernist buildings you may find. A bit of a shame to hear the delay of this construction, but just as long as it gets built, I'm happy! ;) Would be nice if it could set a precedent for other cities, but that's pretty doubtful. I guess money and time will always be the issue.

I find this whole project reeking with subtext. It's not just being demolished because its ugly, its because it represents that inconvienient wedge of German history.

I'm going to be in Berlin in July and I'm more interested in the relics of the former East than the West to be honest.

I'm going to be in Berlin in July and I'm more interested in the relics of the former East than the West to be honest.

No worry, there is still lots of communist architecture in Berlin. Make sure that you dont miss the wunderschoene Alexanderplatz. Here with "House of the Teacher" in the background (left pic).

http://static.twoday.net/jupe/images/alexanderplatz.jpghttp://www.lotje.de/urbanspace/alexanderplatz.jpg

what can i say..I really don't miss that awful Nazi building.

I find this whole project reeking with subtext. It's not just being demolished because its ugly, its because it represents that inconvienient wedge of German history.

What, Nazism?

Anyway, looks like construction on the palace will start in 2010. :banana:

^^ Great, got a source for that?

http://www.rbb-online.de/_/nachrichten/kultur/beitrag_jsp/key=news5384961.html

Thx.
What does Tiefensee have to do with all of this?
Anyways its good news.

Offiziell heisst sein Ministerium ja "Bundesministerium für Verkehr, Bau und Stadtentwicklung".

Yes they will build a glass roof in the Schlüter Courtyard.



The latest news suggest that the palace could be completed in 2013 but the glass roof will not be built.
Its too expensive.

I'm really missing this thang in the impression of Berlin... Cain't wait to see it rising from the ashes of the unreasonable "People's Palace" :banana:

http://www.deutschlanddokumente.de/Bilder/arcSchlossBerlin.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Berlin_Nationaldenkmal_Kaiser_Wilhelm_mit_Schloss_1900.jpg/800px-Berlin_Nationaldenkmal_Kaiser_Wilhelm_mit_Schloss_1900.jpg

Any news from this grand beauty?

The cabinet has given its approval to the reconstruction plans put forward by Tiefensee. Looks like everything's going well. :banana:

^ :applause:

this is excellent! Hopefully it sparks something like Dresdens numarkt reconstruction! They should reconsturct all of downtown Berlin as it was before WW2.

are they rebuilding that stunning river pavilion too? Its a perfect announcement to the grandeur of the palace behind.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Berlin_Nationaldenkmal_Kaiser_Wilhelm_mit_Schloss_1900.jpg/800px-Berlin_Nationaldenkmal_Kaiser_Wilhelm_mit_Schloss_1900.jpg

Sadly they aren't. That pavillion was a monument to Wilhelm I, so it's hardly surprising that the Commies removed it as well.

Some more renderings

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/1157347103.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20070504170225.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20070213130544.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20070213130639.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20070213130335.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20070213131453.jpg

Beautiful building.

To be honest, the Stadtschloss was a quite average, if not boring, building. It is utterly absurd to bring back a building in a copy that has gone several decades. I must say the taste in the Reichstag/Bundestag is really hardenedly conservative, if not reactionary.
The Palast der Republik may not fit with its environments, but this is the overal picture of this historical city, not to mention the palace is a germ of East German modernism, a monumental specimen of this era, a testimony of an art school. No other comparable piece is available. There are two reasons why it seems to be an eyesore now: one is that the aesthetism of 70s modernism is not popular now, which could change anytime, the second is that the building is intentionally negleted and ampulated. To say it is interchangeable with the Alexanderplatz is absurd, the latter one is a completely different concept, designed for a completely different purpose.
Not few East Berliners have expressed strong opposition to this demolition, so does the city council and city senate. It is for two reasons: one is that the most East Germans may not like GRD, but neither will they demonize their past to the extent to fit in with the ideological clichés of West, and the second is that the city finance is in ruins, a lot of buildings of more historic importance lack money and attention, and the residents of the city are held absolutely in darkness what the building is good for.
Also, for East Germans, the Palast der Republik was not only the seat of the former East German politicality, it was also a most import venue of culture in that era. A lot of East Germans might have once attended a concert, an exhibition, a conference there, when it was the most chic and extravagant building in the east part of the city from 70s through 80s. That is why a lot of East Germans really think it a palace of the people although they may hate the regime. West Germans don't know this side of the story and don't want to know it.
To just erase it and erect in its place a fake of the past is not only unoriginal but insulting to a quite broad population, who now often choose to vote the former communists as means of protesting their neglected situation. Last time almost two thirds of the East Berlin population did so.
Actully, if you find this building an eyesore, there are a lot of viable plans at hand to modify it or adapt it. However, the people in the Bundestag just want the glorious past back, at best as a digitalized facsimile, exact in size and color tone.

And: The Hohenzollerns' connection with the militarism and the Nazism is already indisputable. The inflated nationalism and military mania during the era of the German Empire was not only responsible for the first war, but also for the second one. Hitler was once a loyal soldier influenced and indoctrined by this dynasty. During 1930s the exile emperor volunteered for Hitler, only to be turned down by the dictator who deemed the old man as superfluous.
And to say that East Germans invaded Czeckoslovakia is quite ridiculous. Bound by the Warsaw Pact, they only dispatched a small number of soldiers to backup the Soviets. Generally they did not fire any bullets. East Germany was a very small country of 19 million, the size of that of the Netherlands.

Didn't we have this kind of discussion earlier on in the thread? Or in another one?

Anyway, the GDR was a murderous regime which shot its own citizens. No need to sugarcoat it.

http://www.zeithistorische-forschungen.de/_ZF/images/default/fechter1.jpg

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/Fechter.jpg

Hitler was once a loyal soldier influenced and indoctrined by this dynasty.

Hitler was Austrian. He may have fought for Germany in WWI but up until the 20s he spent most of his life in Austria (Linz, Vienna). What shaped him the most was Austrian anti-Semitism, not Hohenzollern militarism.

Why don't they just TNT it?

Can't wait to see ppl doing the same thing with the Culture Palace in Dresden.

Hope I'll live to the day they get rid of Commie building in Vietnam.

I think it's because they're on an island and just blowing up the place could cause some structural damage elsewehere.

Why don't they just TNT it?


Thats not possible.
It would damage surrounding historical buidlings.

edited

Thats not possible.
It would damage surrounding historical buidlings.

That's one reason.
Moreover a lot of asbestos was found and blowing up the palace would "contaminate" the surrounding area.

Kampflamm: A lot of governments in German history shots their own citizens, which does not make GDR regime any special. The fact that quite a large number of East German population don't have a negative memory about this regime and quite a few of them go on to vote PDS/Linker speak some truth. To weep out it with a flush is simplistic. To compare with its predecessor, it was much, much more humane, constructive in domestic and world politics, progressive in thinking and handling, restrained in exploiting the world economically, and peace-loving by default (considering its size of population and military). I know it is far from to meet your critical eyes, but GDR was really an absolute win for the welfare of the world. Perhaps less fabulous and grandiose as the contribuation to the humankind by the Federal Republic, but anyway. I have a lot of understanding for the former GDR citizens who feel proud of their once existent country, as well as for those who hate it.
Checker: I have put it very clear - the aesthetics of the castle is average and lukewarm, dispensable and full of clichés, unlike the palace, which is a clear concept, realized with a loving hand, disturbing for those who hate it and the its association, inspiring for those who understand it and can read it in its context. Either way, it is something really special, brain-twisting. This effect is largely resulted from its out-of-placeness, its stark contrast, its uncompromising character against a background of the grayish Prussian environment. If it be built somewhere, it would become a Don Quixot against the blankness. And please don't compare the castle with the Frauenkirche. As a jewel of German high baroque, it is an essential part helping to complete the Dresdener architectual ensemble. The Frauenkirche is really a monument for the German architecture, just as the rest of Dresden. The communists knew this so they left it in ruins instead of sweeping it away. In comparison, what is the castle good for? The castle was famous as the residence of the Kaiser and the power center of the empire, nothing else, really poor. The so-called Humboldt Forum just sounds so spontaneous and out of the air.

edited

GDR was really an absolute win for the welfare of the world.

Tell that to the people that were locked up for simply speaking their mind.

I really do not know what went wrong with some of the people posting on this thread but could you please explain me how you can do aesthetic judgements on a building that you heaven's even seen in its original condition?
All I've seen (in this thread) so far are pictures of the Palast in today's rundown condition.
So here are some historic pics:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/surrounded_photo/PDR_35.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/surrounded_photo/r_1990a.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/surrounded_photo/palast2.jpg

Btw/ together with the Fernsehturm (which is rather unlikely to be destroyed because it is commercialized) it made a perfect composition.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/surrounded_photo/palast_80er.jfif.jpg

Another point is that it was (and would be today) the best equipped building of its kind in the world (influencing the building other similar structures as the Centre Pompidou in Paris). And before you're arguiung against that I investigated a lot on this building and know what I'm talking about (I studied the masterplan)
Saying it was a representation of the GDR regieme is absolutely ridicoulus. It is true that the Volkskammer (the GDR parliament) was situated in one part of the building (besides it took the smallest volume of it) the SED regieme was situated on the other side of the Marx and Engels Place (today Schloßplatz) in their Staatsratsgebäude.

Apart from that I (as a former East German citizen) feel deeply insulted by what is happening. Not that the destruction of this place was not enough it is also erazed out of all of the souvenir shops and so out of everyone's mind. Have you ever tried to find an item on the Palast in Berlin? Forget it. There's nothing. The senate of Berlin has told the stores to not sell anything reminding of the Palast anymore. (The biggest souvenir shop, Berlin-Story, has in total 4 items on the Palast whereas it has racks full of Schloss related books, postcards and other stuff)

In the end I think that a lot of people would think (or would have thought) different if they just knew a little about this building and did not just see (pictures of) a ruin und a rendering of a fancy castle next to it.
With the Palast not only a building is disappeares but also a big part of Berlin's and Germany's history is erazed from the people's mind.

In Paris they also want to rebuild the royal/imperial palace, aka the Tuileries Palace, which burned during the Paris Commune in 1871 and was then torn down by the Republican authorities in 1882 instead of restoring it. Haussmann and many other people were opposed to tearing it down, but the left-wing Republicans did it anyway, just to remove a symbol of the kings and emperors, exactly like what happened to Berlin Stadtschloss.

Now that Berlin is about to rebuild its Stadtschloss, I bet the project of rebuilding the Tuileries Palace is going to come back to the fore in Paris.

Here are some views of the Tuileries Palace before 1871. The roof on top the entrance hall inspired many buildings across America.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Tuileries1.jpg

The Tuileries Palace stood between the Louvre and the Tuileries Gardens. Here you can see the palace with the Tuileries Gardens in the foreground.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Tuileries2.jpg

Here is the other side of the Tuileries Palace. You can see the Arc du Carousel which was the entrance gate to the visitors courtyard. State guests entered the palace through this gate. In the distant background you can see the famous Arc de Triomphe standing at the end of the Champs-Élysées. In the foreground where you can see the shrubs is where the Louvre Pyramid stands now.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Tuileries3.jpg

The same view today. The Arc du Carousel is still standing, but the Tuileries Palace has vanished, and the Arc du Carousel has lost its function as the entrance gate to a royal palace.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3496/vuedef68gxz3.png

The burnt shell of the palace remained for 11 years waiting to be restored. It could have been easily restored, but the left-wing Republicans decided to destroy it for ideological reasons.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Tuileries4.jpg

The state rooms were as grand as in Versailles, and decorated in the most lavish French style. The interesting thing, unknown to most French people, is that absolutely everything was saved from the fire. The French being art lovers as they are, when the Prussians invaded France in 1870 all the furniture, upholstery, decorations, gilded bronzes, paintings, cristal luminaries, curtains, tapestry, etc., everything from inside the palace was removed and stored in safe places away from Paris, and so they escaped the big fire of 1871.

Everything is now stored in some of the many storehouses of the French governement. There's no room at the Louvre or in any French museum to display these masterpieces of 18th and 19th century French art. One of the goals of rebuilding the Tuileries Palace would be to recreate the state rooms and place all the treasures now stored away from the public back in their original location, to the view of the public. The other smaller rooms would not be rebuilt in their original style but would be used to expand the Louvre Museum which has reached maximum capacity.

Views of some of the state rooms.

Louis XIV Room (Salon Louis XIV):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Tuileries7.jpg

Hall of Peace (Galerie de la Paix)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Tuileries5.jpg

Hall of Diana (Galerie de Diane):
http://tuileries.org/img/imgbank/Galerie_de_Diane_(Eastman).jpg

Room of Apollo (Salon d'Apollon):
http://tuileries.org/img/imgbank/Salon_Apollon_(Eastman).jpg

Throne Room:
http://tuileries.org/img/imgbank/Salle_du_Trone_(Eastman).jpg

Room of the Marshals of the Empire (Salon des Maréchaux):
http://tuileries.org/img/imgbank/Salon_des_Marechaux_(Eastman).jpg

Here is the official website of the committee proposing to rebuild the Tuileries Palace for those who want to find out more: http://www.tuileries.org/

Tell that to the people that were locked up for simply speaking their mind.

Today people will still be! Speech can be a crime in today's German criminal code.

Come on, you lose all credibility if you think people in the GDR had similar civil rights to people in West Germany. Your comments can get you into trouble if they're slanderous, which is the case in most democratic states.

Come on, you lose all credibility if you think people in the GDR had similar civil rights to people in West Germany. Your comments can get you into trouble if they're slanderous, which is the case in most democratic states.

We are talking about architecture, you are posting Berlin Wall dead bodies. Once it is shocking, twice it is ohlala, thrice it is boring, if not laughable, privately none of us are impressed. Should we attatch a Rotenburg cannibal biography at the end of every posts about the contemporary German architecture?

Berlin Wall dead bodies can remind us how unhuman GDR was; Rotenburg cannibal can remind us how bored and know-nothing-better Today's German society is.

My point is not about being right or wrong, my point is about exaggeration and being over the top.

You brought politics into this by drawing a link between the Hohenzollerns, the palace and both world wars (while presenting the communist regime in East Germany as some sort of great philanthropic government).

And what does the cannibal have to do with any of this? There's a huge difference between state sanctioned murder and some lunatic who enjoys eating other people's genitalia.

Saying it was a representation of the GDR regieme is absolutely ridicoulus. It is true that the Volkskammer (the GDR parliament) was situated in one part of the building (besides it took the smallest volume of it) the SED regieme was situated on the other side of the Marx and Engels Place (today Schloßplatz) in their Staatsratsgebäude.


Of course it was a representation of the GDR government.
Regardless how much space the parliament took up in the building.
They blew up the castle (which was represantation of the prussian monarchy) in order to build it.
But I guess we cant ague about taste though. The palace looked maybe just about acceptable when it was new but architectionally I prefer the castle.
What bothers me a bit is that we are destroying a part of our history though.

You brought politics into this by drawing a link between the Hohenzollerns, the palace and both world wars (while presenting the communist regime in East Germany as some sort of great philanthropic government).

And what does the cannibal have to do with any of this? There's a huge difference between state sanctioned murder and some lunatic who enjoys eating other people's genitalia.

I don't post dead men, dude.
And the original comment about Hohenzollerns is not about the architecture, but a reminder to yours about the relationship between them and Adolf Hitler. And it is allocated in a P.S..
Your original comment:
"And please spare me this typical 'imperial Germany is bad' whining. The Hohenzollerns had nothing to do with Nazism, so don't blame Hitler's crimes on them."

The Hohenzollerns indeed had nothing to do with Nazi's antisemitism, but they had everything to do with Hitler's anti-slavonic attitudes, militarism and expansionism. When Hitler was still in Austria, he detested the multiculturalism of the Habsburgs and their prudeness in warefare, and regarded German emperor as the role model. This was well recorded. The Hohenzollerns themselves were directly envolved in warmongering, massacring defenceless civilians during wartime, colonization, and genocide. And there are evidence, documents, and articles published in Germany proving this involvement. When Hitler already banished the democracy and began to persecute the Jews and propagate the war, the German emperor in exile sent Hitler the message that he would cooperate with Hitler in exchange of restoring the monarchy. This is a known fact.

These facts put the imperial Germany and the Hohenzollerns in a context that seems anything sinister than benign.

This is a separate discussion, which does not have anything to do with architecture. And this is obvious in my original post.

If it has anything to do with architecture, it is because any mentions about the palace of the people are inevitably dragged into this kind of association. While the palace is despised as the symbol of the evil regime, the Stadtschloss appears to be context-free. If the latter is clean, the continuous muttering about the former's symbolism just doesn't sound genuine.

And neither did I portrait the GDR regime as philanthopic, or anything great. It made fewer troubles for its neighbors. A lot of East Germans feel proud of this. We know it is a self-comfort. I just relay this joke. That's it.

You ask what the cannibal has to do with German architecture? No, it hasn't. But it has just enough clichés in it about the German people, it is good enough to set some people aback who might have a interest in German architecture. Political labelling is another kind of clichés that kills original discussions. But your blantant apologist stance to the imperial Germany may be something more than the clichés.

mmmm... I doubt about it... maybe an spectacular modern building would be better ....

Personally what I find interesting is how people deride the DDR gvt for being "Evil" yet you want to rebuild the house of the second Reich which killed 9 million people directly or indirectly, and was also a tyrannical monarchical imperialist, racist, militaristic power...if anything the DDR looks like Mickey Mouse compared to what that palace represented.

It is a real shame that they are tearing down the Palast, it could have been used as a museum of DDR history, or other cultural purposes could have been easily fulfilled in the building as it was used right before its demolition. I do not think that the Palast was an "ugly" building, it had its charm if it was in its original condition as was mentioned prior. I think people have a bias against "socialist architecture", but if the Palast was London or New York it would be a masterpiece...I mean you wanna talk about ugly buildings:

http://www.albany.edu/~ec494772/EDStone/KennedyCenter.jpg

No that isn't Moscow, its the Kennedy Center in Washington.

As an Australian who recently travelled to Berlin I would like to throw in my opinion.

I think its a real disaster that the Palast is being demolished. Its probably one of the first modern buildings of our time, that should have been protected from demolishion (and, perhaps, just like the building in its spot should have).

I found a real strong attitude in Germany that seemed to accept, and be quite open about the years from 1933 to 1945, however between 1945 and 1989, basically it seems the history of the West Germany rules. Its as if East Germany was an inconvienient stain in Germany becoming the amazing nation it is in 2007 since WW2. Just the feeling I got, anyway......

I know this building is a stark reminder of a very dark regime, but demolishing it and construction a crude replica of something before it is nothing but tacky. People dont go to Berlin to admire its pre 20th century achitecture, unlike the rest of Europe it has a character that is far deeper than aestetics. Let alone a replica.

But whats now done is done, just done build the replica. The site is worthy of something new.

Sooo slow...
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7084/1027044498534cvw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.*****************/pc/pc/cat/374/display/10270444

I understand the desire to preserve historical buildings, but I don't have a problem with them tearing it down, after all it was built by a regime founded at the end of a Russian burp gun.

Just remember they're not rebuilding the previous structure, it's a new one made to just resemble it. this concept (new building in old style) is nothing new in parts of Europe affected by war.

Another angle of the demolition, different from the DHM. the larger of the two structures making up the Palast is almost on its last breath.

http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/bauen/palast_rueckbau/webcam/bigpix/20071022151501_pdr_bigpix.jpg

interesting fact i found on this site. the concrete "bowl" constructed as a foundation of the PdR will live on as the foundation for any new structure. the interim green space, which is made of a sand/water mixture, is necessary to keep this foundation from rising. this filler can be easily pumped out when the weight of the new structure is in place.

More at:
http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/bauen/palast_rueckbau/index_en.shtml

Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city. It'll be one of the nicest palaces in Germany and it'll make a great ensemble along with the Dom, the Museum's Island and the end of Unter den Linden (Kommandantur, Zeughaus).

I find this post to be somewhat self-contradictory.

So, what is it? If Berlin is "butt-ugly", why are you so fond of making an "ensemble" of buildings/streets of this butt-uglyness?

In my opinion, Berlin is a beautiful city, with or without the new castle, much thanks to these areas you mention here.

What exactly is contradictory there? It's ugly and the castle will alleviate some that (along with the surrounding buildings). It really couldn't be any less self-contradictory.

It really couldn't be any less self-contradictory.

Off course it could. If a city of some 3.5 million people is "butt-ugly", simple maths tells you that one single building will have minimal impact on this "fact".

It sounds like you think this decision (to raze the Palace of the Republic, and replace it with some other palace) is the decisive factor for the looks of Berlin:

Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city.

Translation:

"Keep it, and Berlin will remain a butt-ugly city."

"Raze it, and rebuild an older palace, and Berlin will become so much better to behold."

Your arguments are out of proportions.

OK, let me rephrase. By and large Berlin is an architectural disaster. However, it makes sense to try and improve the situation by removing eyesores and replacing them with better architecture. That's what's happening with the Schloss right now. Once it's finished, the entire area (Museumsinsel, Bauakademie, Friedrichswerder, eastern part of Unter den Linden with the Zeughaus, Kommandantur, University, Neue Wache etc) will look quite good.

Any news on this one? It's been a while.

i've been to Berlin and i liked it,am i weird?-although ok no comparison with the other places i visited like Leipzig and Dresden or Potsdam Berlin was nice but i didnt meet many Germans there:rofl:,although i saw many North Africans and Turkish people

The "Palace of the Republic"? The very name is a load of crap. Nothing about this modern nightmare came close to a palace and the GDR was a Republic in name only; Subservient to the will of Moscow and the Communist Party. It was an ugly building that lacked the beauty of the old Schloss and is a painful reminder of the division of Germany. The German people have suffered long enough with the memories of the past and lord knows there are more then enough memorials and building to remind them of that fact! If you want, build a "memorial" to it and leave it at that!

Current situation

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2556676381_755a79207e_b.jpg

The new building was hideous but the new-old one doesn't look like anything special as far as palaces go. I wouldn't rebuild it.

I've seen worse...it's perhaps no Versailles but it's still pretty good looking.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/448222650_ffbdf6820f.jpg?v=0

http://mapage.noos.fr/syval/Paris%20ressuscit%E9/images/Berliner%20Schloss%201-b.jpg

Yeah, it's certainly not bad at all! That's not what I meant.

This has probably already been addressed, but when I lived in Berlin, I took note of
Staatsratsgebäude containing a portion of the old castle on its facade (as Im sure is the main thing of note to all people who see it). Is that being located to the new castle?

I agree, its not the most beautiful palace in the world, but its a step up from the modern dump that was there before!

^^ amen, you should always build something if its going to replace something a lot worse.

Goodbye Palace :wave:
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5886/32159843dt.jpg


Welcome back Castle of Berlin


www.berliner-schloss.de (http://www.berliner-schloss.de)
www.berliner-stadtschloss.de (http://www.berliner-stadtschloss.de)

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5314/200511032346330ze.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621204415.jpg

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621230143.jpg

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621204449.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20030801223646.jpg

http://www.eldaco.net/admin/ref/pic_ref/gross/20040621204543.jpg

http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20030802145305.jpg

Looks Great!

Me too, but be have to wait another 15 years to see it standing :cry:

Before:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120104941.jpg

After:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105046.jpg

Before:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105852.jpg

After:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105629.jpg

Before:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120110213.jpg

After:
http://www.berliner-schloss.de/picupload/20050120105238.jpg

:-（........same here..........

How long would the rebuilding take?

Demolished Berlin's Socialist Palace is Revived in Dubai
11 August 2008
Deutsche Welle

Tearing down the socialist Palace of the Republic - once dubbed the "Palazzo Prozzo" by the East Berliners -- is bringing handsome profits for scrap firm operators involved in its demolishment.

Vast-sized steel girders from the socialist era building, some of them 90 meters long and weighing more than 100 tons, have been removed from the premises recently, amidst a blaze of sparks and noise.

Hardly a happy ending for the former seat of the East German parliament which apart from its political role was once a popular dance and leisure facility for East Berliners in the 1980s. Not that many people shed tears about the demise of the former 180-metre-wide building, considered a prize piece of socialist architecture when it opened in 1976.

Heavily involved at the Schlossplatz Palace site is Schrott-Wetzel, a Rosslau-based scrap company in Saxony-Anhalt, some 120 kilometers (75 miles) south-west of Berlin. In recent weeks, 30 of its workers have been using powerful steel-cutting gear to get at the building's maze of steel girders.

An architectural behemoth

Demolishing the building is a costly undertaking for the government, involving the removal of 56,000 tons of concrete, 20,000 tons of steel and iron, 500 tons of glass, as well as other materials. The bill is likely to be high, close on one billion euros ($1.5 billion) according to some city experts. This is despite the fact that the heavily indebted city is likely to gain 10.7 million euros from the sale of the building's steel.

Massive-sized girders from the Palace's once proud parliamentary chamber were dismantled recently, cut into six-meter-long segments, then loaded into barges docked alongside the Schlossplatz site -- prior to a three-day river journey to Rosslau. There, the steel will get melted down for shipment to the United Arab Emirate of Dubai, and to buyers in Turkey for use in Volkswagen engines.

"The quality of the steel is excellent," said Henryk Wetzel, the Rosslau scrap-metal boss in Berlin. "We have no difficulty finding markets for it."

A "Palace" will be reborn

Steel from the "Palast" will be is used in the 1,200-meter "Al Burj" project, now under construction in Dubai. The 228-floor Dubai "super tower" will be the world's tallest building when completed in 2010.

Wolfgang Lindau, the head of the Schrott Wetsel steel smelter, said shipping steel to Dubai is important for his company and that the arrangement would continue. So far the company has gotten two barges with 1,600 tons steel from Berlin. The rest is expected to arrive in November.

The Rosslau company has Europe's most dynamic steel-cutting equipment, possessing a 2,000-ton pressure ability. It's capable of snapping the thickest steel girders like matchsticks, say company workers. Involvement in the Berlin demolition project brings welcome publicity for the firm. Wetzel hopes the company’s equipment will become better known as a result.

Today, little of the once palatial socialist era building remains. Once tagged "Erich's Lamp Shop" because of the many lamps it used to have in its foyer and its links to the late communist leader Erich Honecker -- the task of destroying the "Palast" will be finished by the spring of 2009, perhaps earlier.

Meanwhile, curious tourists gather at the Schlossplatz site, snapping pictures of the ruins and taking shots of the nearby Protestant Cathedral and Museum Island through the yawning holes in the doomed structure.

A new palace for the future

After Berlin's reunification in 1990, a huge debate arose over what should be done with the building. Many in the west were in favor of it being torn down, arguing it was not only an ugly edifice, but also too closely associated with the reviled East German (GDR) regime. In the east, however, such views riled citizens raised in the former communist state. They claimed its destruction would rob thousands of people who had enjoyed dances, bowling and theatre performances there during the socialist era of part of their "cultural identity."

But Gerhard Schroeder, Germany's former Social Democratic chancellor, was unimpressed by such talk. In the mid-1990s he labeled the Palace of the Republic "a ghastly building" and strongly urged it be done away with. Following the fall of the Berlin Wall, experts found the Palace was riddled with 720 tons of hazardous asbestos. Removing it cost a whopping $50 million, reducing the premises to a skeleton-like state. Later, still more asbestos was discovered in the building. By 2002, the German parliament had had enough and voted to pull it down.

Now, the plans are to replace it with a Humboldt Cultural Forum and a building with a "historical facade," reminiscent of the pre-war Hohenzollern Palace, blown up in 1950 by the communist authorities. Redevelopment of the famous Schlossplatz, say city planners, will enable the square to become a focal point of city art, culture, and scientific activity in the years to come.

yep bye bye.

Glad to see the palace is being rebuilt,that large empty peice of land is like a tooth missing on an otherwise beautiful smile.I LOVE BERLIN.

Hows progress?

Berlin opens new temporary art hall
29 October 2008

BERLIN (AP) - A blue-and-white cube housing contemporary art exhibitions opened Wednesday on a Berlin city square that has been at the center of a long-running dispute over past and future palaces.

The new structure, designed by Austrian architect Adolf Krischanitz, stands on the huge Schlossplatz, or Palace Square, in the shadow of five-story concrete pillars -- all that remains of the Palace of the Republic that once was home to communist East Germany's parliament.

Officials plan eight exhibitions by established artists and newer talents, kicking off with a video installation by South African artist Candice Breitz called "Inner + Outer Space."

The hall -- covering 6,458 square foot (600 square meters) -- will be demolished after two years to make way for construction of a partial replica of the Prussian royal palace, whose bombed-out remains were razed by the communists after World War II to make way for East Germany's parliament building.

The communists called the 1970s parliament building the Palace of the Republic, and East Berliners fondly remember it for also holding cafes and a bowling alley.

After Germany's reunification, it was deemed riddled with asbestos and was condemned in 1990.

But the building's destruction is a source of regret to some, and many artists believe it should have remained as a unique exhibition space.

"Tearing down the palace was the biggest mistake Berlin ever made," said Dorothea Etzler, a 48-year-old artist who has lived in the city since 1980.

"It had the potential to be Berlin's Palais de Tokyo," she said, referring to Paris' major exhibition site.

Guenter Steincke, 78, a former engineer, said he remembers visiting the original Prussian palace in the 1940s, and is looking forward to seeing it rebuilt.

"There's no doubt that it belongs here," Steincke said.

Construction is scheduled to run from 2010-13, but it is unclear what the new palace will house.

------

On the Net:

http://www.kunsthalle-berlin.com

Its only in Berlin possible to build a art hall and demolish it after a few years. Berlin is great, my capital! Love it :hug:

that is gonna be crazy to reconstruct the palace.. but that is gonna be wonderful when it is donne...
the palace looks more like a EUROPE VIEW ...
than with that bad looking building...

i hope to see this construction done

The final design has been selected...the winner: Francesco Stella.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/storage/pic/fotostrecken/berlin/neues_stadtschloss/241848_1_Modell3_28_11_08_dpa.jpeg

Modern facade:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/storage/pic/fotostrecken/berlin/neues_stadtschloss/241877_1_StadtschlossSpreeSeitigeFassade_28_11_08_dpa.jpeg

Courtyard:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/storage/pic/fotostrecken/berlin/neues_stadtschloss/241888_1_NordwestlichenTeilSchlterhof_28_11_08_dpp.jpeg

http://www.baunetz.de/img/22105830_656672f91c.jpeg

The old Socialist "palace" is about to disappear completely:

http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/bauen/palast_rueckbau/webcam/bigpix/20081118141501_pdr_bigpix.jpg

Why not rebuild the whole thing exactly as it was?

What the hell is this rubbish? Why the f*** do they always have to add this modern crap into the mix? Is it not possible to build it to be exactly the same way it was before?

I like it and definitely prefer it to a big Disneyland or Las Vegas-like one.

Its hard to satisfy the modernists, but actually we can be glad that it gets restored up to this level at all.

One has to consider first of all that it has to serve a modern purpose, it would be a bit too expensive to rebuild it as an imperial castle for no other purpose than maybe some tours through it.

Thats why it will be a used as a museum/culture complex. Such a complex has certain demands regarding space and volumina etc. Thats why it can't be rebuilt completely authentic.

I would have preferred however another reconstruction. The one of Kolhoff would have created a more harmonic courtyard.

One should appreciate however the fact that the facade of three direction will be authentically restored, only the backside will be in a modern language. If one knows how chaotic and small structured this side was in the original castle thats a decision one can understand, after all, as I have said, this building has to function as well, not just look nice. And towards the squre it is directed it, a modern facade probably fits better than an old one anyway.

^^ Why not build it pure? the facade at least. I see no valid reason to give the baroque building a modern facade on one side.

When a classicist suggests adding neoclassical elements to a new building, he/she is accused of being anachronistic, kitsch and so on. When a modernist adds modern elements to an old building, then it's "an interesting mix". In Athens, after they wiped out 3/4 of the city AFTER WWII (the war damages were not too heavy, Athens was never carped-bombed), then they started adding glass extensions to restored neoclassical buildings. These things really piss me off. I had thought the Berlin Palace would be rebuilt as an exact replica. Buildings that were totally destroyed by the war have been rebuilt in so many other German cities, and also in Poland and elsewhere. What is it that makes is so difficult for it to happen in Berlin (and Athens as well)?
It's one thing to mix different styles in an area...it can often be interesting (though I prefer stylistically pure areas I must admit)...and it's a totally different thing to produce bastardized buildings. Of course it needs a modern interior, but why bastardize the exterior? I was really looking forward to seeing the Palace, this is disappointing...

Berlin Prepares Ground for New Palace
3 December 2008
Deutsche Welle

Germany completed the demolition of a communist-era building that doubled as a house of parliament and palace of culture, clearing the site for a replica of the earlier Berlin royal palace.

A design for the old-new palace, to be named the Humboldt Forum, was picked last week, but building work at the site in the middle of the German capital will not start for another two years.

Completing two years of work, diggers ripped down on Tuesday, Dec. 2, the final staircase of the Palace of the Republic, which was once a 180-meter (590-foot) long building lined with the asbestos insulation and clad with copper-colored glass.

Old-time communists have mourned the demise of former East Germany's grandest building, opened in 1976, and have opposed plans to recreate the outward form of the old royal palace.

The authoritarian kaisers lived in Berlin or nearby Potsdam until the last abdicated in 1918 and Germany became a republic. The old palace was gutted by fire during World War II and demolished in 1950.

Michael Moeller, in charge of the new demolition work, said, "That's the finish of the main job. Now we have to grind up the last pile of rubble and take everything off the site."

The pit left after demolition is to be filled with 20,000 cubic meters of sand so grass can be planted on the site until work begins in 2010 on the Humboldt Forum.

I am assuming that 3/4 of the exterior will be COMPLETELY restored?
If so, where are the two little cupolas that were on the sides of the dome? Are they to be restored? If not, why so?
Anyhow, it is a step. It is likely later on they will restore it completely but I suppose this is a 75% reconstruction.

This must be a bad joke :ohno:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/storage/pic/fotostrecken/berlin/neues_stadtschloss/241877_1_StadtschlossSpreeSeitigeFassade_28_11_08_dpa.jpeg

Why? To me it's not that bad.

Why? To me it's not that bad.

A replica of the historical palace, with part modern facade? :ohno:

^ That's the rear of the palace, not the facade. And the rear is the only side not to be replicating the historical exterior.

Why not rebuild the whole thing?

Because it will look like a big fake, like a las-vegas-style. This is IMO a good balance between the historical palace and a brend new one.

Because it will look like a big fake, like a las-vegas-style. This is IMO a good balance between the historical palace and a brend new one.

Why would it appear fake?

Why would it appear fake?


Because it would appear like a big movie-set, totally reconstructed, where everything is not original, like a reproduction of an ancient greek vase, beautiful but fake.
If i were the city authority I would never rebuild the same palace (in Italy you'll never see such a reconstruction) but a new modern one instead, maybe with the original parts left from demolition inserted in the new building.

I agree with some of the above comments. If you are going to rebuild a historic structure, then be true to it. But if they are going to add this modern crap to it, then I'd rather they not rebuild it at all. Hell, I'd prefer the old Palace of the Republic, atleast it would have been preserved in its true form! This THING is a disgrace to the History of Berlin!

It depends .. some modernization of historic buildings can be successfully achieved. For example, the new buildings next to St. Paul's in London have a historic touch, yet don't feel out of place or fake at all. It really hinges on the execution.

Because it would appear like a big movie-set, totally reconstructed, where everything is not original, like a reproduction of an ancient greek vase, beautiful but fake.
If i were the city authority I would never rebuild the same palace (in Italy you'll never see such a reconstruction) but a new modern one instead, maybe with the original parts left from demolition inserted in the new building.

Classical, revival buildings are aesthetically beautiful, constructed using high quality materials the buildings architectural legitimacy is not important. Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world are based around classical styles; London and Paris are cities fabricated and constructed using reproduced "revival" architecture, but would you consider these buildings and areas "fake"? If a new building was built on the site of the Berlin Stadtschloss in a modern style it would almost certainly receive the same fate as the Palace of the Republic; however the reconstructed palace is aesthetically attractive fitting into its surroundings becoming a permanent and lasting feature. Classical architecture when built and designed to a high standard is more attractive than any building built in a modern style. Beautiful buildings are beautiful regardless of whether their fake or not.

Saying that i like good reproductions, i visited last summer Dresden and i apprecieted the good work.
But everybody who saw my pictures said that Dresden looks like a big Disneyland... where everything it's an imitation and for many people this is not good. I explained that part of these buildings reconstructed have some original parts re-placed in their original position.
These motivation where the only way to let appreciate Dresden to many people.
That's what i'm saying, i like the reconstruction, but it will never be the original one, just a "fake".

I would love to see some of the 70's and 80's contructions in Lisbon have the same fate has the "people's palace".

It breaks my heart to see historical buildings in Europe being destroied to build modern horrors (or even modern beautis, there's a place for everything).

Some buildings are simply a mistake since the beguining. But if a mistake was made, it doesn't mean that it can't be corrected.

Berlin will be definitly more beautifull with the original palace. That area of the city is really impressive and will be even more now.

It breaks my heart to see historical buildings in Europe being destroied to build modern horrors (or even modern beautis, there's a place for everything)

Just as a reminder I'd like to point out: the palace of the republic is/was a historical building, too!

Even if the existence of the GDR was a short-lived one, it's still part of Germany's and more specifically Berlin's history. And the palace of the republic had it's place in a (even if radical) well thought through composition for the central district of Berlin.

Destroying a primary example of the architecture (and no doubt also the ideology) of a country that no longer exists is in my eyes not _one bit_ better than what the GDR did with the old palace.

Both, the GDR and now the FRG/Germany have destroyed a part of their own history because it didn't suit the current political system. They both erased history. Now the FRG is rebuilding one part by erasing another, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes...but the big difference is: the Palace of the Republic was fu..ing ugly and the old palace will be very beautiful!

Yes...but the big difference is: the Palace of the Republic was fu..ing ugly and the old palace will be very beautiful!

"Beauty" is very subjective.

Just look at what they are planning to build near the Hauptbahnhof and Reichstag building: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30774952&postcount=238

Or this "jewel" of architecture at Alexanderplatz:
http://www.deutsches-architektur-forum.de/forum/pics/jo-king/Projekte/diemitte1.jpg

Or what they did to the Friedrichstraße:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/storage/pic/nomc/intern/berlin/199964_1_spreedreieck.JPG
The Admiralspalast (behind the first building on the left) shows the original height of buildings in this street. And the construction site on the right used to be a green area.

And now a (historical) picture of the palace of the republic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Palast_der_Republik_DDR_1977.jpg/800px-Palast_der_Republik_DDR_1977.jpg

All these buildings are/were considered "beautiful" by their architects.

And by the way ... take a look at the backside of the proposed reconstruction and say again that this is "very beautiful," or even an improvement to the palace of the republic:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/storage/pic/fotostrecken/berlin/neues_stadtschloss/241877_1_StadtschlossSpreeSeitigeFassade_28_11_08_dpa.jpeg

Buld it like it was and bring history back.
I am sad about Berlin, because exspecially here seems to be a competiotion of famous architects, who will design and complete the most ugly building.

Fake?
What about the tower in Venice? Is that a fake?
A lot of the time these structures look fake because they are so new. Many of these historic buildings looked 'disney' when they were first completed.
If this is fake because it is the reconstruction of a style than most 15th-19th century styles are fake.

Fake?
What about the tower in Venice? Is that a fake?
A lot of the time these structures look fake because they are so new. Many of these historic buildings looked 'disney' when they were first completed.
If this is fake because it is the reconstruction of a style than most 15th-19th century styles are fake.

While you a right that many buildings used to be (and still are) built to look like a style from the past, I think the reason some people see the reconstruction as a "fake" is that it is - in fact - a reconstruction.

It does not simply use older art styles (like the buildings you are referring to), it's façade is a (more or less) complete 1:1 reconstruction of a building that has been destroyed for more than 50 years.

And unlike, for example, the Frauenkirche in Dresden there are almost no remaining original pieces of the Stadtschloss façade. Strictly speaking the new Stadtschloss won't be a reconstruction at all, it will be a replica.

Some picture from the Frauenkirche:
http://www.wolfgangstein.com/images/frauenkirche.jpg
http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/tours/europe/cities/dresden/frauenkirche1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Frauenkirche_Dresden_1991.jpg
http://www.somebits.com/~nelson/weblog-files/centerimages/frauenkirche.jpg
http://www.europar2006.de/Elements/Pixz/Frauenkirche.jpg
Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche



This (the "Karl-Liebknecht-Portal") consists of some of the only remaining original parts of the Stadtschloss aside from some sculptures now scattered around Berlin in and outside of other historical buildings. And as far as I know there are no plans to integrate it back into the Schloss (the building it's currently part of was just recently renovated and converted into an international school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_School_of_Management_and_Technology and is under historic preservation since 1993).
http://idw-online.de/pages/de/newsimage?id=19059&size=screen
Wiki (only German): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsratsgeb%C3%A4ude

They should re-use the original parts.
However, it isn't like they are just rebuilding a set of shops or homes.
It is the reconstruction of a landmark. A landmark that held a very historic place but was destroyed without care or regard for it's history. Many buildings have been rebuilt from scratch.
I would support them returning all original parts of the building and placing them in the reconstruction.
Berlin has lost most of it's beautiful architecture and I think the reconstruction of such a historical landmark would restore a lot of beauty to that part of Berlin.
I wish the Reichsteig(sp?) was restored properly and not gutted and 'upgraded'.

Ooooo! Gorgeous! Any chance the German people will ship over the completed building to Toronto? Perhaps?... Probably not, eh? A shame, because it's a beautiful building. :colgate:

I understand most people in this thread who just want to rebuild the old palace because of it's historic importance.

I just wish more people would realize that the palace of the republic itself was a historic landmark, too (it stood there for 30 years). It always gets neglected just because it's part of the "newer" history. I don't want to justify what the GDR did, but people in, say, 20 or 40 years might think about the demolition of the palace of the republic just like most now think about the demolition of the old palace.

I rather have a grand historic building than a bland modern building anytime.

I rather have a grand historic building than a bland modern building anytime.

You are right, but modern buildings are not necessarily ugly... ;)

Oh wow ... I have no words left for this ...


http://berliner-schloss.de/userfilesupload/image/20090521152811142.jpg

http://berliner-schloss.de/userfilesupload/image/20090521154225616.jpg

http://berliner-schloss.de/userfilesupload/image/20090521153850478.jpg

http://berliner-schloss.de/userfilesupload/image/20090521153651924.jpg

Classical, revival buildings are aesthetically beautiful, constructed using high quality materials the buildings architectural legitimacy is not important. Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world are based around classical styles; London and Paris are cities fabricated and constructed using reproduced "revival" architecture, but would you consider these buildings and areas "fake"? If a new building was built on the site of the Berlin Stadtschloss in a modern style it would almost certainly receive the same fate as the Palace of the Republic; however the reconstructed palace is aesthetically attractive fitting into its surroundings becoming a permanent and lasting feature. Classical architecture when built and designed to a high standard is more attractive than any building built in a modern style. Beautiful buildings are beautiful regardless of whether their fake or not.

I never got this mentality of "fake vs real". What if someone simply has passion for classical architecture and wants to build himself a beautiful villa using a classical architectural style? They are not allowed to because we are in 2009? What would make the structure any less real?! It's ridiculous! Just an example.

The reconstruction of the castle is a waste of resources IMO. Especially if they are going to use tax money for it.

Its not even that beautiful. Rather bland compared to many other historical buildings. And with this modernist crap facade toward Alexanderplatz it will look completely ridiculous.

Very, very sad to see the old palace of republic go, much better than the not so good looking old castle.... I think Berlins image as the once divided city is much more significant than the earlier history, the wall is almost all gone, and this... What's next? Checkpoint charlie? The Tv-tower?

I recently discovered some very old reversal film pictures my grandfather took when the palace of the republic was built:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7499/44845820.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1222/29236693.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8236/56691687.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8281/16410944.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5222/57155339.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1203/73237602.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2796/29101982.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4129/15180179.jpg
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9669/35642470.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6017/51848309.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3553/48050304.jpg

Very, very sad to see the old palace of republic go, much better than the not so good looking old castle.... I think Berlins image as the once divided city is much more significant than the earlier history, the wall is almost all gone, and this... What's next? Checkpoint charlie? The Tv-tower?

How is it much more significant? All of Berlin's history is significant and has others have mentioned countless times, if you want to see what Socialist architecture looks like, all you have to do is walk further east towards Alexanderplatz.

Anyway, the Hohenzollerns ruled over Brandenburg/Prussia for about 540 years, while Berlin was divided for about 40. So which era is more significant again?

i thought that this building has been built long time ago?
demolition started several years from now, and i've seen renders of the new project approximately at the same time...apparently, the pace of the construction is quite slow
at least that conclusion from my point of view

The "palace" felt nice - it was a typical modern skyscraper. That didn't have an erection.

:?


You fail to make a point.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/storage/pic/fotostrecken/berlin/neues_stadtschloss/241877_1_StadtschlossSpreeSeitigeFassade_28_11_08_dpa.jpeg

Must be some Ostalgie revisionist conspiracy. :(

We're still fighting for this not to happen. We want the original Spree / East facade back :yes:


Some historical photos / postcards of it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Berlin_stadtansicht_mit_schloss_1891.jpg/800px-Berlin_stadtansicht_mit_schloss_1891.jpg
Wiki

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1998-014-24A%2C_Berlin%2C_Stadtschloss_%28Spreeseite%29%2C_Berliner_Dom.jpg/758px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1998-014-24A%2C_Berlin%2C_Stadtschloss_%28Spreeseite%29%2C_Berliner_Dom.jpg
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1998-014-24A,_Berlin,_Stadtschloss_(Spreeseite),_Berliner_Dom.jpg)


The sorta famous "round corner"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Berlin_City_Palace%2C_SE_corner_%281%29.jpg/771px-Berlin_City_Palace%2C_SE_corner_%281%29.jpg
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_City_Palace,_SE_corner_(1).jpg)

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/340/ak01378a.jpg
by ZENO.org (http://www.zeno.org/Ansichtskarten/M/Berlin,+Mitte,+Berlin/Kgl.+Schloss,+Schlossplatz) - you get the full resolution there

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7020/ak01333a.jpg
by ZENO.org (http://www.zeno.org/Ansichtskarten/M/Berlin,+Mitte,+Berlin/Kgl.+Schloss+mit+Kurfürstenbrücke) - full res. there


River Spree with the East Facade of the Castle
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2183/ak01324a.jpg
by ZENO.org (http://www.zeno.org/Ansichtskarten/M/Berlin,+Mitte,+Berlin/Kgl.+Schloss+[7])


The Pharmacy of the Castle
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1998-014-21A%2C_Berlin%2C_Stadtschloss%2C_Apotheken-Fl%C3%BCgel.jpg
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1998-014-21A,_Berlin,_Stadtschloss,_Apotheken-Flügel.jpg)


How I love all this asymmetry and historical grown structures
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3510/ak01298a.jpg
ZENO.org (http://www.zeno.org/Ansichtskarten/M/Berlin,+Mitte,+Berlin/Kaiser-Wilhelm-Brücke+und+Kgl.+Schloss)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1246/ak01300a.jpg
ZENO.org (http://www.zeno.org/Ansichtskarten/M/Berlin,+Mitte,+Berlin/Kaiser-Wilhelm-Brücke+und+Kgl.+Schloss+[3])

I see. So it's not just the renders.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2mgr0au.jpg

Love the cathedral. It's still there, ain't it?

^^No, it was destroyed 60 years ago and will be rebuilt soon.

When looking at these historic pictures it becomes apparent hat kind of shit country Germany has become.

^^No, it was destroyed 60 years ago and will be rebuilt soon.

It is still there. It's the Berliner Dom.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F088849-0010%2C_Berlin%2C_Palast_der_Republik%2C_Berliner_Dom.jpg/595px-Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F088849-0010%2C_Berlin%2C_Palast_der_Republik%2C_Berliner_Dom.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2069616344_2f3d35a814_b.jpg

It's pretty much disfigured though.


Just compare the above views with this - Berliner Dom around 1900:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9701/ak01571awr2.jpg
by ZENO.org

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Dom_und_Stadtschloss%2C_Berlin_1900.png/800px-Dom_und_Stadtschloss%2C_Berlin_1900.png
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dom_und_Stadtschloss,_Berlin_1900.png)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Dom%2C_Berlin_1900.png/800px-Dom%2C_Berlin_1900.png
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dom,_Berlin_1900.png)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Dom_2%2C_Berlin_1900.png/384px-Dom_2%2C_Berlin_1900.png
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dom_2,_Berlin_1900.png)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-P018432%2C_Berlin%2C_Weihnachtsmarkt_vor_dem_Dom.jpg/441px-Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-P018432%2C_Berlin%2C_Weihnachtsmarkt_vor_dem_Dom.jpg
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-P018432,_Berlin,_Weihnachtsmarkt_vor_dem_Dom.jpg)


Unique ensemble with Berlin Castle
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1977-061-26%2C_Berlin%2C_Kurf%C3%BCrstenbr%C3%BCcke%2C_Schloss_und_Dom.jpg
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1977-061-26,_Berlin,_Kurfürstenbrücke,_Schloss_und_Dom.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2008-0281%2C_Berlin%2C_Berliner_Dom.jpg/784px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2008-0281%2C_Berlin%2C_Berliner_Dom.jpg
Wiki (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2008-0281,_Berlin,_Berliner_Dom.jpg)

When looking at these historic pictures it becomes apparent hat kind of shit country Germany has become.

You have grown up in Frankfurt, right? This must give you a bad impression.

You have grown up in Frankfurt, right? This must give you a bad impression.

At least Frankfurt has skyscrapers. A little compensation for the loss of historic architecture.

This thread isn't about Frankfurt so just stop this.


Btw, I remember you being a lot more constructive, Miau :(

It's pretty much disfigured though.
You say "disfigured" but what I'm seeing is only dirty.

He probably means the new "simplified" cupolas.

historic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Dom%2C_Berlin_1900.png/800px-Dom%2C_Berlin_1900.png
after WW2:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5410/dom1v.jpg
now:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/2006_Berliner_Dom_Front.jpg/695px-2006_Berliner_Dom_Front.jpg


As the constructor of the new ones was the GDR (constantly short on money and building material) the obvious conclusion one would come to is that they were built this way to reduce cost.

The 'official' reason they're not rebuilding the original ones is that the stone structure supporting the main cupola was damaged during the war and wouldn't carry the much larger and heavier original design.
At least that's what the guides in the Berliner Dom tell the tourists and visitors.

The current cupolas are under historic preservation and some people actually like them more than the old ones (which they find too pretentious).

It's pretty certain they won't be rebuild in the near future.
However, I personally would like to see the Denkmalskirche rebuild (lower left of the first picture).

Oh, now I see it. The old domes were definitely better.

Edit: Also, why is the building still being used for moss cultivation?

He means the new "simplified" cupolas

Sure. Thought this would be obvious ;)

I have an extreme dislike of most things modern, so I will never be happy with this rebuilt "palace". But I guess its better then nothing.

Sure. Thought this would be obvious ;)

Not really. From this photo it look like the spire is undergoing restoration (otherwise the domes look almost identical):

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2069616344_2f3d35a814_b.jpg

But the spires could not be restored because of the damage? Did I at least get this right?

I think it looks better without the spires. The old design was way to overladen with kitsch. The unfinished reconstruction points out the real proportions... (I'm going to get killed by Erbse and other nostalgics for this statement :shifty:)

I think it looks better without the spires. The old design was way to overladen with kitsch. The unfinished reconstruction points out the real proportions... (I'm going to get killed by Erbse and other nostalgics for this statement :shifty:)

I'm gonna kill you! Wuaaaaaaaargh!!!111eleven :bash:

Of course the original domes and spires were the best...BUT
Actually, I think they did a very good job with the new dome. It was even more inspired by St. Peters in Rome. Though I think the lantern on top of the dome is a little too small.

I think the entire building is a mess. The inside looks alright but the facade...horrible. Wish they had torn it down instead of the palace.

what I dont like is the rotten color of the builiding ... the old castle had the same, btw

Thanks for posting this information. Very informative.

I do not understand why they tore the Palast down, it had a versatility in purpose that the Prussian palace cannot possibly have. The Palast, in contradistinction is a building that is more open to the public than the palace. Never-mind the fact that it was the Prussian monarchy that engaged in genocide in Africa, and was one of the main protagonists of WWI and this is what we are validating? In addition, many East Germans find it offensive that what they built has been devalorized and mocked at by Westerners. Although the Palast is gone now forever, I do not think it speaks well for Germany that it so conveniently chooses to re-build a building that was at the heart of imperialist terror.

I do not understand why they tore the Palast down, it had a versatility in purpose that the Prussian palace cannot possibly have.

A couple of answers:
* It was horrible
* It was ugly
* It was hated
* It was a blight on the landscape
* It was full of aspestos
* It was horrible (oh, I said that)


The Palast, in contradistinction is a building that is more open to the public than the palace.

I don't know about that. The Palast wasn't exactly a free for all for anyone to walk in 24/7 where ever they liked. Besides, I'd rather see a closed off beautiful building and a hidious one which I can enter every now and again.


Never-mind the fact that it was the Prussian monarchy that engaged in genocide in Africa, and was one of the main protagonists of WWI and this is what we are validating?

Never mind the Palast was created by a communist dictatorship that built a wall around the city executing anyone who tried to leave, and who did try to leave because their stupid concept of communist society was a complete failure.


In addition, many East Germans find it offensive that what they built has been devalorized and mocked at by Westerners.

Do something stupid, expect to get mocked.

Build something ugly, expect to get mocked.

Life can be hard.


Although the Palast is gone now forever, I do not think it speaks well for Germany that it so conveniently chooses to re-build a building that was at the heart of imperialist terror.
There is far less politics involved in this as you seem to suspect. The old palace was beautiful which is why many people want it back. They don't think about the wonderful times of the "imperialist terror", just as many of the die hard communists want a return of communism. They also don't think of the horrors and terrors that communisim forced onto so many people, but more of the fact they didn't have to work and could bludge all day.

A couple of answers:
* It was horrible
* It was ugly
* It was hated
* It was a blight on the landscape
* It was full of aspestos
* It was horrible (oh, I said that)

Those are all value-judgments that cannot be quantified-except for the asbestos, which can be and was removed. I do not agree with any of the other statements, it was not hated by all, there was a vocal movement to prevent its destruction. Therefore, we will never agree about this, let us focus rather on the historical and political importance of the two buildings.

I don't know about that. The Palast wasn't exactly a free for all for anyone to walk in 24/7 where ever they liked. Besides, I'd rather see a closed off beautiful building and a hidious one which I can enter every now and again.

When the Palast was in operation, it was a public building meant to be open to all citizens of the DDR. The building, in proposals to save the building, was to be even more inclusive and multipurpose, indeed in the last years of the building it was an amazing place to have art exhibitions. The Prussian palace, by definition, is exclusionary. This is what we want to recreate, a building that represents avatistic notions of inherited privilege, a regime that was less democratic than the DDR, hyper-militarized and institutionally racist? The DDR was no saint, but it was a more humane regime than Kaiser's Germany that sent millions of Germans to die on the battlefield for the regimes imperialist and racist notions of German hegemony. Again, if you are going to answer to this, I do not want to hear your 'its ugly, har har' comment, its immaterial b/c I do not think it was ugly and you aren't going to convince me otherwise.

Never mind the Palast was created by a communist dictatorship that built a wall around the city executing anyone who tried to leave, and who did try to leave because their stupid concept of communist society was a complete failure.

Sounds like Skid Row in the US...anyways, no one is denying the regime of the DDR was not a human rights paradise. However, in its defence it had ample social programs that did make life better there than anywhere else except the most advanced capitalist states, and no East German was homeless, unemployed, or went hungry...standards that we are clearly lacking in our capitalist societies. Having talked to East Germans, they do recognize the errors of the regime, but they also recognize that there were positives, i.e. a greater sense of community. Compare that record to the Kaiser's regime of imperialism, suppression of workers, wonton murder of millions, dispossession and genocidal acts of savagery in Africa, the use of chemical weaponry against allied troops, institutionalized rape in the occupied territories, institutionalized racism...yet this is to be glorified and rebuilt in the centre of Berlin! Say what you will about the DDR, but it did not even come CLOSE to the barbarity of the Prussian regime. I hope you enjoy defending that record.

There is far less politics involved in this as you seem to suspect. The old palace was beautiful which is why many people want it back. They don't think about the wonderful times of the "imperialist terror", just as many of the die hard communists want a return of communism. They also don't think of the horrors and terrors that communisim forced onto so many people, but more of the fact they didn't have to work and could bludge all day.

I do not care what most people think, assuming people even think that, or care. The point is greater than what some consumer in a mall thinks, this is about what is valued in contemporary Germany. The values of the elites who have the political clout and capital to make these decisions and enforce them is troubling to say the least. If you think they are putting this relic from a tyrannical past up just because it looks nice, you are deep in the fog of ideological mystification my friend.

[I]
Those are all value-judgments that cannot be quantified-except for the asbestos, which can be and was removed. I do not agree with any of the other statements, it was not hated by all, there was a vocal movement to prevent its destruction. Therefore, we will never agree about this, let us focus rather on the historical and political importance of the two buildings.

Indeed, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are always people who find what the rest of society finds ugly, beautiful. But no, I couldn't careless about the plotical history of either building. Life is far to important to care which period a building was constructed in was more terrible. I just don't want an eyesore.


When the Palast was in operation, it was a public building meant to be open to all citizens of the DDR. The building, in proposals to save the building, was to be even more inclusive and multipurpose, indeed in the last years of the building it was an amazing place to have art exhibitions. The Prussian palace, by definition, is exclusionary. This is what we want to recreate, a building that represents avatistic notions of inherited privilege, a regime that was less democratic than the DDR, hyper-militarized and institutionally racist? The DDR was no saint, but it was a more humane regime than Kaiser's Germany that sent millions of Germans to die on the battlefield for the regimes imperialist and racist notions of German hegemony. Again, if you are going to answer to this, I do not want to hear your 'its ugly, har har' comment, its immaterial b/c I do not think it was ugly and you aren't going to convince me otherwise.

I don't agree with you at all. Communisim around the world has killed more people than Imperialist Germany ever did. And that old building was a representation of that said communisim. But all that aside, it was still butt ugly.


Sounds like Skid Row in the US...anyways, no one is denying the regime of the DDR was not a human rights paradise. However, in its defence it had ample social programs that did make life better there than anywhere else except the most advanced capitalist states, and no East German was homeless, unemployed, or went hungry...standards that we are clearly lacking in our capitalist societies. Having talked to East Germans, they do recognize the errors of the regime, but they also recognize that there were positives, i.e. a greater sense of community. Compare that record to the Kaiser's regime of imperialism, suppression of workers, wonton murder of millions, dispossession and genocidal acts of savagery in Africa, the use of chemical weaponry against allied troops, institutionalized rape in the occupied territories, institutionalized racism...yet this is to be glorified and rebuilt in the centre of Berlin! Say what you will about the DDR, but it did not even come CLOSE to the barbarity of the Prussian regime. I hope you enjoy defending that record.

Don't agree at all. If the DDR was even slightly good, why did they have to build a giant wall to keep everyone in. And then put armed guards on that wall to shoot anyone who left, and then to put mines between the walls to blow up the others that the guards missed, adults and children alike.

Anyone could leave the West for the socialist paradise of the DDR but very very few did. Yet people were willing to risk their lives and that of their families to get the hell out of the DDR.

Sorry, true history proves you wrong. I can see why you like the old Palast. You are a communist, as simple as that, and that building was a communist building.

Hate to say this, but communisim is a failed system and is gone and so is that building. The Palast will never come back.


I do not care what most people think, assuming people even think that, or care. The point is greater than what some consumer in a mall thinks, this is about what is valued in contemporary Germany. The values of the elites who have the political clout and capital to make these decisions and enforce them is troubling to say the least. If you think they are putting this relic from a tyrannical past up just because it looks nice, you are deep in the fog of ideological mystification my friend.

Wow, if I ever heard a communist rant, then here it is. It must be hard to see your political ideal completely fail. I am sorry for this for you. But that is the way it is. Our system does not need a wall to keep us in.

But although our society will never return to such horrors as communisim, at least in our lifetime, there is still hope for you. You could always move to North Korea where it is still strong. They will welcome you with open arms. Of course, it may be difficult leaving again which is often the case with communist dictatorships.

But no, I couldn't careless about the plotical history of either building. Life is far to important to care which period a building was constructed in was more terrible. I just don't want an eyesore.

There is no reason to lie here, you clearly interpreted the issue as a political one when you stated:

Never mind the Palast was created by a communist dictatorship that built a wall around the city executing anyone who tried to leave, and who did try to leave because their stupid concept of communist society was a complete failure.

If you merely wanted to talk about the aesthetics of the building, then why state this, or even focus on the political aspect of my response? Aretha Franklin had a famous song in the 80s and I think the title is appropriate for you in this circumstance: Who's Zooming Who?

I don't agree with you at all. Communisim around the world has killed more people than Imperialist Germany ever did. And that old building was a representation of that communist said communisim. But all that aside, it was still butt ugly.

What don't you agree with exactly? Are you saying that historical facts don't matter? That is what you seem to be saying, because that is what you are not agreeing with in the quoted statement.

In addition, we aren't talking about "communism" around the world we are talking about the Palast der Repulik and German history. If we use your standard, the millions of Latin American's, South-East Asians, Middle Easterners who were killed, tortured and disappeared during the systemic dirty war against socialists, communists, etc., to protect capitalism are represented in Frankfurt's towering towers of finance capital; ergo, they should also be torn down. Do we really want to play this game? I suspect the answer is no, so lets stick to the issue at hand. The issue is we have two buildings, one representing a proto-fascist dictatorship that helped bring about a World War killing 10 million people and another building in what, I would call a 'state capitalist' regime, that had a human rights record that was significantly better than in most 'free-market' capitalist states in the world. Therefore, if the Palast represents the DDR, how can the Palace not represent the terror of genocidal violence of the Kaiser? You can dance around that issue all you want, but you are only making a mockery of your own intellect.

Don't agree at all. If the DDR was even slightly good, why did they have to build a giant wall to keep everyone in. And then put armed guards on that wall to shoot anyone who left, and then to put mines between the walls to blow up the others that the guards missed, adults and children alike.

I never said the DDR was a paradise, indeed, I even stated the opposite. So why are you imposing a red herring in this conversation? I am saying, relative to imperial Germany, the DDR was a more humane regime. You are actually suggesting that the record of the Reich was better than the DDR? Secondly, have you ever talked to an East German in a non-condescending way? Assuming you haven't, if you had done so, many would tell you that some things in East Germany got worse after reunification and some have gotten better. You my friend are the one who is engaging in a blind ideological argument, with a simplistic, 1950s binary of the world. Bush would love you.

Sorry, true history proves you wrong. I can see why you like the old Palast. You are a communist, as simple as that, and that building was a communist building.

Yes, I am a socialist so what is it to you? Secondly, 'history' is interpellated from many different ideological perspectives, i.e. this conversation. You, nor I have 'true' history, history is not an objective object. So do not pretend that you have some privileged notion of history, you can barely make a cogent argument.

Hate to say this, but communisim is a failed system and is gone and so is that building. The Palast will never come back.

Well, millions of Latin Americans would tell you differently, socialism is rolling back.

Wow, if I ever heard a communist rant, then here it is. It must be hard to see your political ideal completely fail. I am sorry for this for you. But that is the way it is. Our system does not need a wall to keep us in.

Why do you assume automatically that I supported the Soviet experience? Do you think I am in some way offended, or discouraged by your simplistic logic and worldview? Please, go work to the CIA's propaganda office circa. 1955.

You havn't answered this question yet. "If the DDR was better than the Imperialist society before it, or the capitalist society in the West during the time, then why did they have to build a massive wall to keep everyone in and shoot anyone (including children) who tried to leave.

Let's be honest here. That pretty much translates in anyone's language "our system sucks".

And yes, that old building was butt ugly, is gone, and will never come back. :cheer:

I do not understand why they tore the Palast down, it had a versatility in purpose that the Prussian palace cannot possibly have. The Palast, in contradistinction is a building that is more open to the public than the palace. Never-mind the fact that it was the Prussian monarchy that engaged in genocide in Africa, and was one of the main protagonists of WWI and this is what we are validating? In addition, many East Germans find it offensive that what they built has been devalorized and mocked at by Westerners. Although the Palast is gone now forever, I do not think it speaks well for Germany that it so conveniently chooses to re-build a building that was at the heart of imperialist terror.

As far as I know, the royal castle was a BUILDING, not a person and thus could not hurt anyone (but in the eye? ;)).
Besides that: The new royal castle will only have some facades and a dome in common with the old castle, designed by baroque architect Schlüter...but maybe that bastard was beating his dog... What would make the facades and the whole building yet evil again...? :ohno:

To be honest, same goes for the Palace of the Republic. :)

As far as I know, the royal castle was a BUILDING, not a person and thus could not hurt anyone (but in the eye? ;)).
Besides that: The new royal castle will only have some facades and a dome in common with the old castle, designed by baroque architect Schlüter...but maybe that bastard was beating his dog... What would make the facades and the whole building yet evil again...? :ohno:

To be honest, same goes for the Palace of the Republic. :)

The problem is, as you can clearly see in this thread, that regrettably most PEOPLE don't think that way. Neither in relation to the old castle nor the palace of the republic.

To my personal annoyance the most zealous supporters of the demolition of the palace of the republic are (most of the time, I don't want to generalize too much) the kind of people who have never even been near it, let alone inside, and are in my eyes - without thinking for themselves - trapped in a world view that should have died in 1989.

And as Nico_Uru said, the rebuilt Schloss won't be a place for the people. The palace of the republic was a place to go to and have fun. It had cafes, a concert room, a disco and even bowling alleys. And it WAS open to anyone. The Schloss will now be a museum. A "dead" building to look pretty and pretend 50 years of German history never happened.

Wow, a bowling alley. It'll be missed. :(

So are all reconstructions examples of "pretending" that history didn't happen? If you walk through Berlin you will see fine examples of its history everywhere. If you want to see remnants of the GDR, just walk a couple of steps further east and you'll see statues of Marx and Engels, Alexanderplatz, and of course the most beautiful Socialist avenue in all of Germany. By demolishing the castle btw, the GDR pretended that 500 years of German history had never happened.

Haven't we had all of these discussions before though?

a regime that was less democratic than the DDR

Please read a book on German history and then we can continue this discussion.

hyper-militarized

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-1985-0508-018,_Berlin,_Wachaufzug.jpg

Justme

I answered your question, and stop bringing up red herrings. You are obviously intellectually unable to carry on this conversation.

Kampflamm

Wow, a bowling alley. It'll be missed.

Wow indeed, what you seem to misunderstand is that a bowling ally has more relevance to the people than a glorified room lined with gold leif that serves no other purpose than to show off the power and wealth of the Prussian monarchy. Again, the Palast was a building built for the inclusion of the people in the nominal seat of state power, the Palace is a building designed and built for exclusion of those people from state power. It really is very symbolic of the current trajectory of society.

So are all reconstructions examples of "pretending" that history didn't happen? If you walk through Berlin you will see fine examples of its history everywhere. If you want to see remnants of the GDR, just walk a couple of steps further east and you'll see statues of Marx and Engels, Alexanderplatz, and of course the most beautiful Socialist avenue in all of Germany. By demolishing the castle btw, the GDR pretended that 500 years of German history had never happened.

The castle in 1949 was a heap of rubble from the bombings in the war, the DDR had a limited capital and resources to rebuild a society that was bombed more than West Germany. It did not help that the USSR engaged in one of the largest repo jobs in the world when it came to East Germany's capital stock. Never-mind the huge housing shortage due to the war, so you wanted the regime to spend its scarce resources in rebuilding the seat of the reich, a regime that stood against everything the socialist regime stood for, because it looks pretty, while hundreds of thousands of Germans lived in precarious living conditions? Yes, you sound like a petty bourgeois already. And I don't even think the Palace was anything wow compared to the other royal houses of Europe.

Please read a book on German history and then we can continue this discussion.

Democracy means many things to many people my friend.

About the picture you showed of the East German soldiers marching.

Bastille Day:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/2701801803_5825e6782c.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/191547892_11e813a998.jpg?v=0
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1198/544709540_3aa06e9023.jpg?v=0

So logically speaking, France is just as hyper-militarized as East Germany.

Wow indeed, what you seem to misunderstand is that a bowling ally has more relevance to the people than a glorified room lined with gold leif that serves no other purpose than to show off the power and wealth of the Prussian monarchy.

It does? I'd rather walk through a magnificent palace than throw balls at pins.

The castle in 1949 was a heap of rubble from the bombings in the war

Wrong. It could have been rebuilt and was no more destroyed than plenty of buildings in EGermany that weren't torn down. The destruction of the palace was a political move, nothing more or less.

About the picture you showed of the East German soldiers marching.

Does every Frenchman have to serve in the army? Will he or she be locked up if she refuses to serve in the army? EGermany was a highly militarized state and used that military to kill and essentially lock up its own people.

Yes, you sound like a petty bourgeois already.

Thanks.

Never-mind the huge housing shortage due to the war, so you wanted the regime to spend its scarce resources in rebuilding the seat of the reich, a regime that stood against everything the socialist regime stood for, because it looks pretty, while hundreds of thousands of Germans lived in precarious living conditions?

Yes...after all the Soviet Union did the exact same thing. They also rebuilt royal palaces even though people were homeless because they accepted and understood the cultural value of these buildings.

It does? I'd rather walk through a magnificent palace than throw balls at pins.

How many castles does Germany have? Why create a new one, that compared to other German castle's looks like a piece of crap? I mean really:

http://www.uwo.ca/modlang/images/Neuschwanstein%20Castle.png

Germany is the size of my finger, if you want to go to a beautiful building you have so many places to go in Germany, and in Berlin proper. The point about the Palast is that it is a unique historical relic, that constituted part of Germany's past that should not be ignored of glossed over. The fact that Germans are rebuilding a sterile, in my opinion ugly compared to other German or European palaces, is a joke. The rebuilding of the Palace is more political than anything else, it is the signal from West German capital that they "won", and they wanted to get rid of the symbol of socialism and East German identity. Let's stop this stupid, foolish game of 'its pretty'. The fact is, if you package anything just right, anything can be considered beautiful, for example: http://blog.oregonlive.com/portlandbeavers/2007/08/slater.jpg

Wrong. It could have been rebuilt and was no more destroyed than plenty of buildings in EGermany that weren't torn down. The destruction of the palace was a political move, nothing more or less.

Hmm sounds EXACTLY like what they did to the Palast too...I guess its a game of revenge. Too bad what they are defending and recreating was the seat of Europe's most murderous regime, something to be truly proud of.

Does every Frenchman have to serve in the army? Will he or she be locked up if she refuses to serve in the army? EGermany was a highly militarized state and used that military to kill and essentially lock up its own people.

I believe in Italy you do have to serve in the army, and if you don't, you will go to jail. Also, did not West Germany have that rule as well? Being forced to serve in the army was common through the world to help build a sense of nationalism and community. I am sorry but the United States current locks people up with no charges, spies on its own citizens without any warrants, tortures, illegally invaded a nation, lets 50 million go on without NO healthcare coverage, and has millions of people who are literally hungry and living on the streets, and it is BY definition the most hyper-militarized state in the world spending more than the rest of the world combined on its military-industrial complex...please spare me your simpleton logic. Also the French, or any liberal-democratic regime surely shows its ugly side once things start going against it:

http://www.jahsonic.com/Paris1968.jpg
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/04/28/wb1968_wideweb__470x390,0.jpg


No that isn't Eastern Europe, that was Paris in 1968. Or how about the French in Algeria:

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/chimage.php?image=2006/2002/algeria.jpg
http://www.marxists.org/history/france/algerian-war/manifestation-1960.jpgp


Or how about the capitalist paradise of Chile, 1973:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/320153959_77c2d5a495.jpg
http://libcom.org/files/images/library/chile-coup-1973.jpg
http://www.aetherometry.com/Electronic_Publications/Philosophy/AS1-06/images/chile_1973.jpg

Don't play this bull-shit game with me.

Yes...after all the Soviet Union did the exact same thing. They also rebuilt royal palaces even though people were homeless because they accepted and understood the cultural value of these buildings.

Ya too bad most of the USSR palaces were not taken over or bombed by the Germans. The Amber room, which the Germans stole was never replaced, to my knowledge, by the USSR.

Why create a new one, that compared to other German castle's looks like a piece of crap? I mean really:

Neuschwanstein

Interesting that you mention Neuschwanstein...a fake castle that was built by a king who admired absolutist monarchs and lead his country into bankruptcy.

seat of Europe's most murderous regime

:|

One piece of advice for you...Prussia isn't just Wilhelm II. It was a country that actually welcomed people of all faiths. Read up on Frederick the Great or just read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Kingdom-Downfall-Prussia-1600-1947/dp/0674023854

Anyway, this is the end of the discussion for me. I'm tired of debating the same crap with (rather uneducated) Commies over and over again. Political discussions should be kept out of this thread which is about a building, not a monarch.

Anyway, this is the end of the discussion for me. I'm tired of debating the same crap with (rather uneducated) Commies over and over again. Political discussions should be kept out of this thread which is about a building, not a monarch.

Unfortunately, for you this obviously never was a discussion.

And groundlessly insulting your conversational partner doesn't prove your point.

Regardless of political issues, this building is outright ugly and should not be allowed to be built anywhere in Europe.

Some young Eastern Europeans seem to miss Communism much (maybe from what they've been told from their nostalgic parents?) Ever got the taste of how is it like?

One piece of advice for you...Prussia isn't just Wilhelm II. It was a country that actually welcomed people of all faiths.

The perverse Prussian system of autocratic 'enlightened' government, which is an oxymoron in my opinion, enabled and created Wilhelm II. Unlike you, I do not live in a world of black and white, so I recognize that not everything in the Prussian era was negative. However, my point is threefold:

1) The Reich was at the heart of inter-imperialist rivalries of the early 20th century that directly led to WWI.
2) The Palace, as the effective seat of the Prussian government, was the nexus of the terror that spread throughout Europe, i.e. Chemical warfare, institutionalized racism, rape, etc.
3) The ideology of the Reich, in part, helped lead to the Nazi terror of the WWII.

The DDRs record, compared to the Reich, is more than tolerable. In addition, the Palast represents a unique and important relic of Germany's past. If you want a symbol of the Reich, you have the Reichstag. I think what the German state did with the Reichstag should have been done with the Palast to signal reconciliation with its past and looking to the future with confidence. The destruction of the Palast highlights ignorance and ideological intolerance that characterizes the so called consensual politics of the current era.

Anyway, this is the end of the discussion for me. I'm tired of debating the same crap with (rather uneducated) Commies over and over again. Political discussions should be kept out of this thread which is about a building, not a monarch.

I have to agree with habsgul here, you know an ad hominem argument is a very strong suggestion that you are the one lacking in sufficient cognitive abilities to continue on with the argument. You know, you do not have to project your own insecurities on me, i.e. calling me uneducated. I just want you to know that I am a Ph.D student in one of the top 20 schools in the world...so uneducated? Rather, it is painfully obvious that you are merely projecting your own deficiencies on me.

Some young Eastern Europeans seem to miss Communism much (maybe from what they've been told from their nostalgic parents?) Ever got the taste of how is it like?
Maybe from their nostalgic parents... ;)

I rather have a grand historic building than a bland modern building anytime.

You are right, but modern buildings are not necessarily ugly... ;)

and all "modern" buildings will become "historic" logically, look New York City where Chrysler Tower and the Empire State will have 80 years in the next two years.

I just want you to know that I am a Ph.D student in one of the top 20 schools in the world...so uneducated?

OK, so you're not uneducated but you clearly have an agenda which is blinding your intelligence here.

1) The Reich was at the heart of inter-imperialist rivalries of the early 20th century that directly led to WWI.

All empires of Europe are to blame for WWI. For quite a while Wilhelm II tried to avert war but the rather retarded alliance with Austria forced his hand eventually.

2) The Palace, as the effective seat of the Prussian government, was the nexus of the terror that spread throughout Europe, i.e. Chemical warfare, institutionalized racism, rape, etc.

All sides used chemical weapons. And are you telling me that the "armies of democracy" were any less racist? Even during WW2 black/African soldiers were treated like crap by the US and French forces.

3) The ideology of the Reich, in part, helped lead to the Nazi terror of the WWII.

Hitler was an Austrian, the capital of his "movement" was Munich. You're creating links here that have little to nothing to do with the actual building.

The DDRs record, compared to the Reich, is more than tolerable.

See the post below. It locked up its own people, killed political prisoners, made it impossible for critical voices to do or accomplish anything within the country, it participated in aggressions against its neighbor...but yeah, like all Socialist countries it tried to project an image of brotherhood of all peoples which is why you sometimes saw black people on the street or on official posters (interestingly enough that part of Germany is now by far the most racist one, so I guess the imperialist Wessis must have done something right between 1949-90).

Fact of the matter is that I prefer the castle because I think it's a more beautiful building. The PdR's political background doesn't really matter to me until people start blaming the Prussian palace for war crimes.

Unfortunately, for you this obviously never was a discussion.

Exactly. I have my opinion and I will stick to it. That's why these debates are fairly pointless, especially when people who admire the GDR are entering them. I mean seriously...did the Kaiserreich lock up its own people? Did it kill political prisoners on a grand scale? The GDR was a horrific regime which btw took parts in wars of aggression as well. So no bowling alley can hide that.

OK, so you're not uneducated but you clearly have an agenda which is blinding your intelligence here.

Huh? Firstly, it is impossible for a human being who is communicating with another human being to be devoid of a opinion, or what you derisively call an 'agenda'. If anything, I have pretty much undone all of your ideological arguments, i.e. "DDR bad har har". Secondly, all of your 'points' relating to the DDR have been throughly criticized. My intelligence brings me to the conclusions I have, not visa versa.

All empires of Europe are to blame for WWI. For quite a while Wilhelm II tried to avert war but the rather retarded alliance with Austria forced his hand eventually.

Some more than others certainly, and German once in the war was more than wiling to violate international law, create a proto-lebensraum in Eastern Europe with the Treaty of Brest-Livtosk--something that certainly inspired Hitler. If the Reich was merely looking for peace and not war, I do not think the Kaiser would have had such grand plans for a future German hegemon in Western and Eastern Europe, wiping whole states off the map. Ironically, it was the Reich that facilitated the transit of Lenin to Russia.

All sides used chemical weapons. And are you telling me that the "armies of democracy" were any less racist? Even during WW2 black/African soldiers were treated like crap by the US and French forces.

Who started the slide towards barbarism? Germany, she was the one who first used chemical weapons against allied troops. In addition, to my knowledge, the allied forces, in the West at least, did not engage in institutionalized rape, theft, and dispossession as the Germans did in Belgium. About racism, Germany's actions in Africa were among the most barbaric of any European power.

Hitler was an Austrian, the capital of his "movement" was Munich. You're creating links here that have little to nothing to do with the actual building.

Hitler was a soldier in the German army, fighting for the Reich and felt it was betrayed by "Judeo-Bolsheviks". Hitler, in part, was inspired by Bismark and the Prussian notion of Germanization and the superiority of the German people. To my knowledge, Munich is in Germany so I do not know why you are treating it as if it were a foreign city. The building represents that dark period in German history, do you understand the notion of metaphor, representation? You obviously do b/c you have little problem associating the crime of the DDR regime with the Palast, but seem to deviate from that logic once you talk about the Palace.

It locked up its own people (Rosa Luxemburg), killed political prisoners, made it impossible for critical voices to do or accomplish anything within the country(the Reich was a autocratic 'enlightened' dictatorship, with a nominal legislature), it participated in aggressions against its neighbor..(seriously? Belgium, France, Russia killing millions of people)

You just described the Reich, both of them. The DDR was no paradise, and I would love for you to show where I said or even implied it was. The DDR's aggressions against human rights, international law are marginal compared to what occurred in the Reich. Ergo, if we are talking about which regime is worse it is the Reich in my opinion and thus, I do not think we should be idealizing and glorifying a dark past. I am not saying that we should keep the PdR as a monument to the DDR, however, we should have renovated it so it could represent a reconciled Germany. Now, we have a scar in the middle of Berlin filled with the cancer of the imperial past.

I mean seriously...did the Kaiserreich lock up its own people? Did it kill political prisoners on a grand scale?

Yes and yes. In addition, the invasion of Czechoslovakia was not an act of war, so I do not know what 'wars of aggression' you are talking about.

Justme

I answered your question, and stop bringing up red herrings. You are obviously intellectually unable to carry on this conversation....

... I just want you to know that I am a Ph.D student in one of the top 20 schools in the world...so uneducated? Rather, it is painfully obvious that you are merely projecting your own deficiencies on me.

Well, I am smart enough to know that every attempt at communism in world history has failed and resulted in a murderous dictatorship.

Now, let me give you some real life history. I have a friend from the DDR. I met her when she was 17 shortly after the fall of the wall and she told me this story of her family.

A short while after she was born, her father was arrested by the police. You see, a neighbour had noticed an English language book in their house. It was a novel, if I remember correctly. But the simple fact it was English was enough in those dark days to be arrested.

She never saw her father once as she was only a baby when he was taken away. As she grew up, she and her family members would write countless letters to him, hoping that he read them and hoping to get a reply but she never did. He did recieve some of them though.

What happened to him was horrible to say the least. You see, he was locked up in the basement of the building across the street. In the basement of the neighbour who called the police. If the DDR government could think of a more horrible torture, I don't know. He could just look out a small slit in the boards that blocked the tiny window near the ceiling, and for nearly 17years he watched his daughter growing up. He was told if he tried to call out, they would torture is wife and children, so for nearly 17 years he suffered in the most horrible way.

At the fall of the DDR, he was of course released and reunited with his family.

Today, the Eastern part of Germany is a free land. Maybe you wish a return to those horrors, and quite frankly if you do, your Ph.D won't be worth a grain of salt in my eyes. But I certainly hope you grow out of these delusions with the past.

As for claiming my dislike for the Palace of the Republic is based on this horrible history, you are quite incorrect. I have nothing against buildings constructed during the communist period, or any other dark period in history, as long as they are aesthetically pleasing. This one isn't. It's just simply ugly.

And in the respect of people like my friend and all she has suffered, I couldn't give a toss about your opinion here, especially if you are going to insult me just like you did.

The building is gone just like communism. Please learn to live with it.

I believe that communism isn't bad...its just that the dictators used this wonderful ideology to feed themselves with power, and this is why Communism always failed to prove itself in a large scale...because the idea of it is wonderful but it always seemed like this type of government fell into the devil's hand. This is why i don't trust communism or socialism anymore.

Nico_Uru : Your pointless comments make me want to cry. Why keeping such an ugly looking building like that? This building represents shame to the USSR. We should destroy all memories from the soviet union since it hasn't brought anything good to us anyway. USSR brought genocides,fear,war,thirst of power,brainwashing,mind control, Bullshit propaganda etc. Go to the metro areas of Moscow, Kiev, Minsk and look for yourself how ugly are those apartments and how ugly and industrialized most of the parts of these cities are which were once beautiful historical cities of the old Kievan Rus' ( all thanks to Communism)

Justme

Your point would be relevant if I ever defended the DDR regime as a good regime, I haven't. So again, stop with the red herrings. You consistently misunderstand the thrust of this conversation in your ideological belief in the inherent 'evil' of communism and the DDR. My point, which you seem totally intellectually incapable of understanding is this:

The PdR was torn down as a political act by capital to signal the 'defeat' of socialism and East German identity. In its place, capital-it must be capital, since it is privately financed-is reconstituting a pro-capitalist, pro-hierarchal edifice in the middle of Berlin to denote the victory of the liberal order of the 19th century; thus, the full circle of history, or as Fukuyama calls it the 'End of History' has come to the heart of Berlin, denoting that the deviation of the 20th century is over. However, that edifice also represents a regime that represented one of the most barbarous and uncivilized eras of Europe's history largely instigated by its revisionist aspirations. East Germany was no angelic regime and I never defended it as such. However, the DDR's record is not even close to that of the Reich. In addition, within the context of the Cold War, the DDR's record is not that different and in many cases better than most other capitalist societies, particularly in the developing world. Basically, I think that rebuilding the palace is a regression back to a mentality and an era that should have been left back in 1918 and it highlights that as long as you are 'on the right side of history', i.e. capitalism, liberalism, etc., your transgressions can be overlooked.

The PdR was torn down as a political act by capital to signal the 'defeat' of socialism and East German identity. In its place, capital-it must be capital, since it is privately financed-is reconstituting a pro-capitalist, pro-hierarchal edifice in the middle of Berlin to denote the victory of the liberal order of the 19th century

Lame. WGermany has never attempted to somehow rub the defeat of Communism in the face of Ossis. The PdR was full of asbestos and something had to be done with it. Having a bowling alley in the center of the city wasn't good enough in the eyes of some citizens so they decided to call for the reconstruction of the Prussian palace. Here's to them. :cheers:

You have to try and leave the 20th century. Communism is non-existant and there is no "capital" which seeks to build memorials to its victory. It's just regular people who want to rebuild or build good looking buildings.

Lame. WGermany has never attempted to somehow rub the defeat of Communism in the face of Ossis. The PdR was full of asbestos and something had to be done with it. Having a bowling alley in the center of the city wasn't good enough in the eyes of some citizens so they decided to call for the reconstruction of the Prussian palace. Here's to them. :cheers:

You have to try and leave the 20th century.Communism is non-existant and there is no "capital" which seeks to build memorials to its victory. It's just regular people who want to rebuild or build good looking buildings.

I see you lack a sense of irony, because the two comments you make actually contradict each other and support my point. Since you won't understand it, I will point out how. Your second statement, "You have to try and leave the 20th century." is exactly in contradiction to the first one, "WGermany has never attempted to somehow rub the defeat of Communism in the face of Ossis.". How? You are saying to the 'Ossies' that they were on the wrong side of history and that you won. Ergo, they have to deal with it and now you get to make the rules.

Secondly, the so-called 'common people', do they have billions of dollars to reconstruct the palace do they? Who are these 'common people'? I don't take these terms as is, as if they are self-evident because they clearly are not. In addition, if you don't believe in the existence of capital, then I wonder where investment funds comes from and who makes the decisions as to where those funds should be allocated? If you really think this about aesthetics of the building alone and not about its political significance is the reason behind its demolition, then its a metaphysical divide that we cannot bridge. Thirdly, you assume the PdR had no popular support, it clearly did with the manifestations to save the building and many 'Ossies' were offended by the tone of the discussion surrounding the building. Fourthly, the building was renovated in the sense that all the abestos was taken out and was already being used a a cultural facility so...your point is what?

Also, thank you for agreeing with me about the Reich, I assume your lack of rebuttal is tacit acceptance of its points.

How? You are saying to the 'Ossies' that they were on the wrong side of history and that you won. Ergo, they have to deal with it and now you get to make the rules.

What? :sly: My post simply referred to your Politburoesque comment about "capital" wanting to rebuild the palace in order to show the Ossis who's boss (that rhetoric can also be found on this site (http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm)). And yes, to some extent "we" (ie the democratic society that Germans are living in these days) do get to make the rules. Parliament voted to rebuild the palace...isn't democracy just awesome?

Fourthly, the building was renovated in the sense that all the abestos was taken out and was already being used a a cultural facility so...your point is what?

The PdR was a shell, nothing more. So calling it a "renovation" is laughable to say the least.

1) The Reich was at the heart of inter-imperialist rivalries of the early 20th century that directly led to WWI.
2) The Palace, as the effective seat of the Prussian government, was the nexus of the terror that spread throughout Europe, i.e. Chemical warfare, institutionalized racism, rape, etc.
3) The ideology of the Reich, in part, helped lead to the Nazi terror of the WWII.


Forgive me as a non-German to butt in on this discussion, and I do understand some of the arguments for keeping the Kulturpalast, but this set of conclusions confuse me a bit.
The Hohenzollerns ruled as Prussian kings from this palace since 1701, correct? and the palace as it is intended to be reconstructed, minus dome was completed by mid-18th century, so why is that building intrinsically linked to WWI? Its seems quite arbitrary what you choose to associate an historic building with. When the French look at Versailles, they dont see absolutism and countless wars, do they? They just think of it as a monument to French culture. That surely is why some Germans want to re-erect the palace not as a momument to intolerance, but to German culture.

Nico, you are needlessly politicizing this issue. I can guarantee you that rebuilding the Schloss has absolutely nothing to do with glorifying the Prussian regime. Is is a purely aesthetic decision. Berlin is "aesthetically-challenged" in areas, and they are simply trying to make the city nicer on the eyes. The area there by the Dom and Unter den Linden has a nice collection of beautiful pre-war buildings and they simply want to add to that collection to further beautify the area. Regardless of how negative that time period may have been politically, they made pretty buildings back then. Period.

The Palast was butt ugly and I'm glad it's gone. If you cannot detach yourself from politicizing structures, you shouldn't mourn much for the DDR and it's (awful ugly) architectural heritage in Berlin, as there are plenty of vomit-inducing, eyesore communist buildings left in Berlin to admire.

@nico
btw: Imagelinking without permisson of corbis-pictures is a licence-violation as well as a violation against the exploitation right of the corbis-website (and rightly so) and the result can be a forfeit(money).-even if you left the watermark inside.

Kamp

You are a walking, talking contradiction. If you cannot see the contradiction in your response, then I cannot help you. And, what I meant by 'renovation' was that all the asbestos was taken out, you stated that it was asbestos ridden and had to be destroyed. You misrepresent the facts and simply are not consistent in your own arguments.

so why is that building intrinsically linked to WWI? Its seems quite arbitrary what you choose to associate an historic building with.

Because the building was intrinsically linked to the Prussian autocracy as the effective seat of government during WWI and before. I am not associating anything to the building other than what it was meant to represent: it represented the Prussian state and since the Kaiser was the head of state, the building, since it was his residence, represented the end of the line for the responsibility of the deeds of the Reich.

Nico, you are needlessly politicizing this issue.

No, virtually everything is inherently political. I suggest you read the quote in my signature, and to say that something isn't political is the height of the political. I would not be offended by the demolition of the Palast if a new building, representing a new Germany went up, but in my opinion it is political because instead of creating something new they went back to recreate a discredited building and its discredited regime. Symbolism is very important.

Guys, just let Nico_Urdu talk... It's his problem, not our's! XD
Coming new to skyscrapercity and having (with his 21 posts) nothing better to do here, than argueing and complaining about an actually wonderful project of bringing worldculture together in one place, just behind three reconstructed baroque facades, just says everything... And the way he argues says everything as well. He's got issues...

Kamp
it represented the Prussian state and since the Kaiser was the head of state, the building, since it was his residence, represented the end of the line for the responsibility of the deeds of the Reich.


It represented the Prussian state, sure, just like Versailles represented French absolutism, nowadays the two need not represent anything but the accomplishments of German and French culture respectively.
I still dont see why this palace has to be exclusively associated with the decisions that led to WWI. Besides anything, it was built before the time of the Reich.

Well, when someone quotes Žižek, whose prose is a means of intellectual intimidation that actually says nothing that couldn't be said in a bunch of words, then no wonder he's a sort of backward communist troll in an age when analytic philosophy and neurosciences have gotten rid of all that post-structuralist psychoanalytic marxist-leninist crap that used to be the philosophical fashion in the 70s. Slavoj is basically a revered maverick. We've come a long way since.

Back to architecture, the Palast der Republik was Scheisse, and I'm proud I first signed for the Wiederaufbau of the Hohenzollern Castle back in 1993 during my first trip to Berlin - for what it's worth.

It represented the Prussian state, sure, just like Versailles represented French absolutism, nowadays the two need not represent anything but the accomplishments of German and French culture respectively. I still dont see why this palace has to be exclusively associated with the decisions that led to WWI. Besides anything, it was built before the time of the Reich.

Because the Palace represents the historical trajectory that led to WWI under the Prussian system of governance and its own pathologies. WWI did not happen in a vacuum, the ideology of the Kaiser and the Reich did not occur in a vacuum, they did not just suddenly emerge; therefore, the Palace represents the political nexus of that historical legacy. Lastly, during WWI the state was a dictatorship under the rule of the Kaiser, and therefore the decisions that led to the disasters of that war occurred in that building. Far more was decided in that Palace than was decided in the PdR, which was basically a rubber-stamp parliament.

I've said my piece on this issue, you know where I stand. The PdR has been demolished, the Palace will be built I cannot change that. However, I think it says a lot of what values modern German society has. All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.

Read a book about the Prussian history and open your eyes little child..
Prussia was a great state. Without Prussia Germany would have nerver been created, Prussia was key to a Grand Germany. Prussian virtues lead germany and europe into a new age before power crazed guys like Wilhem II and Hitler ruined it!
The palace represent the whole prussian era not only a few years! So i support a reconstruction of the Palace!

PS: Im from Bavaria..

Justme

Your point would be relevant if I ever defended the DDR regime as a good regime, I haven't. So again, stop with the red herrings. You consistently misunderstand the thrust of this conversation in your ideological belief in the inherent 'evil' of communism and the DDR. My point, which you seem totally intellectually incapable of understanding is this:

The PdR was torn down as a political act by capital to signal the 'defeat' of socialism and East German identity. In its place, capital-it must be capital, since it is privately financed-is reconstituting a pro-capitalist, pro-hierarchal edifice in the middle of Berlin to denote the victory of the liberal order of the 19th century; thus, the full circle of history, or as Fukuyama calls it the 'End of History' has come to the heart of Berlin, denoting that the deviation of the 20th century is over. However, that edifice also represents a regime that represented one of the most barbarous and uncivilized eras of Europe's history largely instigated by its revisionist aspirations. East Germany was no angelic regime and I never defended it as such. However, the DDR's record is not even close to that of the Reich. In addition, within the context of the Cold War, the DDR's record is not that different and in many cases better than most other capitalist societies, particularly in the developing world. Basically, I think that rebuilding the palace is a regression back to a mentality and an era that should have been left back in 1918 and it highlights that as long as you are 'on the right side of history', i.e. capitalism, liberalism, etc., your transgressions can be overlooked.

:lol: Absolutely not. The building was torn down because it was ugly. It was an eyesore and it was unloved. The historical palace is being rebuilt because it was beautiful, because many people missed it for the iconic construction in it's previous location.

Basically, ugly out, beauty in.

There are still many old DDR buildings in Berlin, as there are Nazi buildings. The good looking ones remain.

Life is a lot more simple than you try to make of it. Sit back, have a beer and stop trying to analyze everything.

I believe that communism isn't bad...its just that the dictators used this wonderful ideology to feed themselves with power, and this is why Communism always failed to prove itself in a large scale...because the idea of it is wonderful but it always seemed like this type of government fell into the devil's hand. This is why i don't trust communism or socialism anymore.


I agree. The principle with communism is not bad. It's just that it can never work. A much simplified example why can be seen here:

* A communist country is created. Many people may not agree with it, but they must have no choice. After all, if they choose to change it, the communist state ceases to exist.

* Even if the communist state comes into being in a peaceful, bloodless way (which rarely happens), the problem is that not all the world is communist, so those who don't want to live in a communist country would leave. This usually includes the well educated and highly skilled people. The engineers, the designers, highly skilled surgeons etc. Why? Because if given the choice to live in a country which does not reward them for their hard work or skill, but the country next door does, then they may choose to move.

* This causes a "brain drain", and the economy suffers terribly, so the government must pose border restrictions to try and stop the exodus. They can't do what capitalist countries may try when similar brain drains happen, such as decrease taxes or other incentives, because this denies the principles of communism where all are equal. Closing the borders is the only choice.

* These border restrictions create an additional conflict for the highly skilled citizens, who not only face significantly lower wages and rewards for their hard work, but also virtual imprisonment. So, more skilled workers try to leave the country.

* This forces the government to enact harsher penalties and restrictions. Not only are border controls tightened, but travel restrictions are forced onto the population to make it even harder to reach the border.

* This in return makes it more desirable to "escape" into a free society. Now, not only are high skilled workers wanting to leave, many working class citizens also feel restricted.

* As the regime becomes more and more controlled and restricted, more people become desperate to leave. Simple restrictions are not enough, so the government must now threaten violence, death or imprisonment for anyone trying to leave the country.

* As you can imagine, this will just make it more important to leave, so death or imprisonment is simply not enough. People would care about the safety of their families and the need to escape would become higher, so the government would have to start threatening the families themselves. Nothing scares parents more than threats to their children and now we have a truly dangerous and evil government which will do anything to retain the control on their population. Those hard core communists, who still believe strongly in their system, would turn to draconian methods to ensure the system retains. Anyone, working class or skilled, who in the slightest way is feared to disagree with the system will be reported to the police. This in turns creates a society of total fear.

* Fear in the government turns into paranoiac proportions. And any form of criticism of the government has long been banned. This controls all form of free speech, art, music, literature and society. Society itself has turned into one of fear and poverty. There are not enough highly skilled people in the country and even the working classes are not inspired - only fear keeps them working.

* Finally, through the economy, which always is threatening to collapse, the ecology and environment is neglected. There is no money to care about pollution or ecological needs. Factories are inefficient and the environment suffers greatly. During the communist period it was so clear how much worse the environment was in those countries.

This maybe a totally simplified set of steps, but in effect it is how every attempt at communism has resulted in. What Nico_Uru doesn't seem to understand, or at least acknowledge, is that if he lives in a free society, he is free to speak against that society and of his mind. People will debate with him, but that is as far as it will go. If the society he so cherishes is created, no form of free speech would then be tolerated including his own.

It is a path we must not fall down again.

What's all the fuss here about? Everybody should be happy this eyesore called 'palace' (:crazy:) is gone.
Whatever might replace it (I'm not too happy they won't reconstruct the whole Stadtschloss).

All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.

You really do have some serious issues. Why don't you come to our little racist country and see the people for yourself.

I don't blame buildings for the people that lived in them. Had the PdR looked like some of the buildings on Karl-Marx-Allee I probably would have been in favor of keeping it since EGermany's "national tradition" style represents some of the finest post-WW2-architecture around.

I've said my piece on this issue, you know where I stand. The PdR has been demolished, the Palace will be built I cannot change that. However, I think it says a lot of what values modern German society has. All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.

Well, you sure have made your point clear, The only thing I would add is that characterising 200 years of Prussian monarchy as reducible to genocide, mass murder, autocracy etc etc. is a dramatic statement, simplistic and tied to a rigid cognitive schema at best, highly offensive and misleading at worst.

Indeed. And you could say way more terrible things about other empires, such as the Brit or the French one.

But would anyone consider to tear down Buckingham Palace or all Empire style buildings?

To add to this, I would like to point out that I would imagine few people here would oppose the Fernsehenturm, which was also build by the DDR and had public viewing points for the masses. Why, because it's quite cool and looks good.

The Palace of the Republic is simply horrible and ugly. Thankfully it's gone, and what will be in it's place will be many times better. Though I must admit I see the point of view from those who would prefer a modern building. Modern or a replica of the original palace, either is good for me as long as the ugly Palace of the Republic departs Berlin.

To add to this, I would like to point out that I would imagine few people here would oppose the Fernsehenturm, which was also build by the DDR and had public viewing points for the masses. Why, because it's quite cool and looks good.

Good example... the television tower was built explicitly as a landmark that overtops any other building in Berlin and is easily visible from the west. It has been a much more powerful symbol of the GDR than the Palace of the Republic ever was, since its appearance and symbolic power was directed right towards the 'enemy'.

So if the true intention behind tearing down the PdR was to destroy the symbols of socialism, why didn't they start with the Fernsehturm?

Their intention was to tear down an ugly building and replace it with a beautiful one which can be used without worries (thinking about the asbestos issue).

I hope that everyone's got it now. To fear the emergence of a new Prussian-German nationalism because a socialist 'palace' has been torn down and a former Prussian palace is going to be (partially) rebuilt... this is simply ridiculous.