View Full Version : One measly 405 carpool lane almost as expensive as the entire Expo Line!


klamedia
January 19th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Traffic Relief May Be Brief on 405
Transportation experts say $570-million plan to complete carpool lanes will ease congestion only for a while, but also say it's still worth doing.

By Caitlin Liu, Times Staff Writer


When Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger stood near the base of the traffic-clogged Sepulveda Pass on Friday to announce he was fast-tracking $570 million in improvements to the San Diego Freeway, he probably drew grateful sighs from some of the region's most hassled commuters.

The project calls for construction of a carpool lane along the northbound side of the freeway through the Westside and into the San Fernando Valley.

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But transportation experts predict that any resulting relief from traffic congestion on the 405 would probably be short-lived.
"People are very rational," said professor James E. Moore II, director of the transportation engineering program at USC. "If you build it, they will come."

The maxim is sure to come up again as lawmakers begin debate on the governor's much larger $222-billion construction bond proposal that would pay for more freeways as well as other infrastructure projects, including water systems and jails.

Moore and others say that even a huge boost in freeway funding is unlikely to mean any long-term declines in congestion — especially in dense urban areas such as Los Angeles. There are simply too many people — and cars — in Southern California, and more are coming.

Just ask Sean McCarthy. The employment consultant, who lives in West Hills, says his southbound commute on the 405 improved somewhat after Caltrans completed carpool lanes in that direction a few years ago.

But now, it's just as terrible as his northbound crawl.

"There's not a perceptible difference to me," said McCarthy, 51. "The freeway is so congested, so slow."

Traffic on the 405 has gotten so unbearable for McCarthy's wife, Ann, that she eschews the freeway altogether. Like many cross-mountain commuters, she now drives only surface streets to her job in Beverly Hills, her husband said.

Still, McCarthy is eagerly awaiting a new northbound lane. "If we do nothing, things will get that much worse sooner," he said.

Indeed, transportation and elected officials contend that the improvements are worth the expense and should make the life of commuters at least a little better.

Even small improvements in freeway conditions might make a big difference on surrounding streets by reducing cut-through traffic, said Los Angeles City Councilwoman Wendy Greuel, chairwoman of the city's Transportation Committee.

For example, commuters such as Ann McCarthy might opt for the freeway instead of cutting through neighborhoods. Greuel predicts that the new carpool lane "will have a major impact."

Caltrans officials said adding carpool lanes to freeways generally saves users about a minute per mile. The eight-mile southbound 405 carpool lane, which opened in 2001, initially saved the average carpooling driver 18 minutes a day, said Judy Gish, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Transportation. And because people who already carpool shifted to the new lane, traffic in the regular lanes lightened and also began moving faster.

But automobile traffic is a bit like water, flowing to the path of least resistance. Once motorists learned that the 405 was moving faster, they would shift from other congested roads and freeways, Moore said. A freer-moving freeway also could prompt people to drive more — all of which would contribute to the return of congestion.

That's what happened after the southbound lanes opened. And Moore predicts that the 405 will just fill up with traffic again "within a year or so" after the new northbound carpool lane opens.

Caltrans officials are hoping to break ground on the 405 project by 2009 and estimate it will take a few years to complete. When it opens, the lane will connect to other completed carpool segments to the north and south — creating a continuous stretch from Orange County, past the chokepoints near Los Angeles International Airport and all the way to Interstate 5 in the north San Fernando Valley.

The project will help "decrease the number of single-occupancy vehicles on the roadway," said Will Kempton, statewide director of Caltrans, citing benefits such as reduced smog. "That's why this connection is critical."

Having a carpool lane also can help the growing region by serving more commuters, experts say. Cars may still move slowly, but more people — encouraged to ride in carpools — are being moved along.

Carpool lanes "can increase the efficiency of the system by a lot even if it doesn't reduce congestion," said professor Brian Taylor, director of the UCLA Institute of Transportation Studies.

About 40% of L.A. County's 533-mile freeway system has carpool lanes, with an additional 114 miles of such lanes under construction, being designed or in the planning stage.

Even though the 405 project may not improve congestion by much over the long haul, transportation experts say Caltrans is still doing the right thing by trying to build fully connected high-occupancy vehicle lanes across the region.

"If you have little bits and pieces of HOV lanes, you don't get as much benefit from it," Taylor said. "The closer you are to developing some kind of network, the more people will use it. You create incentives to form carpools."

Taylor argues that even if improvements were eventually undone by more cars, that's not all bad.

Instead of staying home because they feel trapped by traffic congestion, people might go to see family, visit friends or check out that new restaurant across town. Commuters might be willing to travel farther for a job offering more pay and benefits.

"All of that means people are better off," Taylor said.

This is stupid! Where are all of the people screaming about the cost now! Though I hate train lines down the center of expressways ala BART and some Chicago lines as well as the Green Line, a train down the center of the 405 would have been a much better use of money to eventually connect with Expo and Green line. This will only encourage more people to drive and we will see congestion back on this same corridor in a matter of years. Even the experts say this. They could have taken that money and got the Red Line started! Where mass transit encourages "congestion" these guys are only hoping and praying that it doesn't happen too soon. Basically pissing half a billion dollars away on a project that they know eventually in a matter of years begin to fail. This does not encourage density or low cost housing, both desperatley needed in this city. The old backward ass thinking has to die a slow and painful death I suppose!

LosAngelesSportsFan
January 19th, 2006, 09:30 PM
i just dont get it either. They already know its a limited improvement that will not be there in 2 years yet they want to piss away money on it@#(*)&*%!!!!! God it gets me so mad.

dweebo2220
January 19th, 2006, 09:48 PM
why can't they just DESIGNATE one lane as carpool!!
Make that pass UNPASSABLE unless you take a buddy along.

the only thing is that I do believe day laborers would start waiting at each side to be hired to ride along...

latennisguy
January 19th, 2006, 11:45 PM
heck...i'm a starving college student...i'll ride with someone! :)

godblessbotox
January 20th, 2006, 12:11 AM
were do you live, maybe you can help me buy a new car!

Why does it cost so much for a damn hov lane... i thought it was just some paint and a sign?

solongfullerton
January 20th, 2006, 12:27 AM
Can you imagine a Heavy Rail Line that went from the central Valley to LAX? Then until the red line gets to the Westside, there would be feeder busses that picked people up at the Wilshire and Santa Monica stations and delivered people to Beverly Hills, Century City, Wilshire Corridor, Santa Monica, Wilshire/Bundy, and possibly even further east locations like the Miracle Mile and Hancock Park. Not to mention the easy commute to the airport for air travelers from the valley and westside. A taxi ride to a rail stop from West LA sure beats the $30+ it costs all the way to the airport or the parking to take your own car. It sounds too good to be true. I guess the only other thing you would need would be huge parking structures at the stations in the valley north of the 101 to hold all the commuters cars that will be parked there.

klamedia
January 20th, 2006, 02:04 AM
Yes and that rail line be heavy or light would eventually connect with the Red, Expo, make a quick dash to the airport(it would be really close) and then run along with the Green which would be extended to at least Del Amo mall. Or it could run along with the Green going towards Norwalk, take a quick turn down the Harbor Transitway(the 110) all the way to San Pedro which has respectable densities as well.

I'm all for carpool lanes and fixing up our already existing infrastructure but if it's going to cost 1/2 a billion dollars let's put it into something that actually cultivates smart growth like another rail line. Oh yeah, and the 405 line could have met up with the Orange Busway as well. How dope would that have been?

I'm starting to believe that the Westside gets what ever it wants.......and doesn't get what it doesn't want.

klamedia
January 20th, 2006, 02:12 AM
Hold up! I just read this again! Quote:"The project calls for construction of a carpool lane along the northbound side of the freeway through the Westside and into the San Fernando Valley.

YOU MEAN IT IS JUST ONE SIDE FOR 1/2 A BILLION!!!! THIS MUST BE A TEXT ERROR!!! :eek2:

solongfullerton
January 20th, 2006, 02:45 AM
There is already an HOV lane on the southbound side which ends near Sunset. Currently, construction is being done to continue it to the 105. The carpool lane going north ends at the 105 and doesnt start up again until after the 101, they want to bridge the gap.

klamedia
January 20th, 2006, 03:13 AM
So the answer is "yes". 1/2 billion dollars for one side of the freeway.

FROM LOS ANGELES
January 20th, 2006, 03:46 AM
The hell with this crap. Can you imagine if we keep on having stupid people that make stupid decisions, in ten years LA would have 20 more extra freeway lanes for the price of 50 billion dollars. Stupid governor. Doesn't AS know what this city really need, of course not a half a billion lane, that is going to make everything the same in a year and a half. God I get pissed off when I read crap like this.

Facial
January 23rd, 2006, 07:13 AM
I used to drive northbound 405 once a week, and more than 3/4 of the time it was a parking lot.

One single HOV added won't even change that. 405 North is already as good as dead.

We need a regime change.

klamedia
January 25th, 2006, 05:57 PM
It's time to call Condi!

LANative
January 25th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Man, that is expensive!

Fern~Fern*
January 26th, 2006, 08:03 AM
isn't it great we are going to have a carpool lane added to the 405...... :rock:

PotatoGuy
January 26th, 2006, 08:06 AM
I dont see what the big deal is with the new lane anyway.. I mean by the time they're finished adding ONE lane the traffic will be the same.. they should spend the money improving public transport

LANative
January 26th, 2006, 08:27 AM
Wow another lane. But I agree, if anything that money needs to be to increase public transportation in L.A. Adding one puney lane is not going to help the 405 with its traffic woes.

Fern~Fern*
January 26th, 2006, 08:31 AM
There's money for both projects, so we all get what we want.

LANative
January 26th, 2006, 09:10 AM
^^ Well Im not to sure about that...

klamedia
January 26th, 2006, 09:43 AM
There's money for both projects, so we all get what we want.

So why aren't both projects being built?

Facial
January 26th, 2006, 11:33 AM
There's money for both projects, so we all get what we want.

I say re-allocate most of the money to the better project. This way the freeway can stall and people will realize that the trains might in fact be a better solution.

lochinvar
January 26th, 2006, 02:33 PM
How about elevated rail lines on top of all the HOV lanes in the Southland.

klamedia
January 26th, 2006, 07:01 PM
No one wants train lines down the center of freeways like The Green, they don't promote density. Though I would be behind a train down the center of the 405.

Fern~Fern*
January 27th, 2006, 03:56 AM
So why aren't both projects being built?

Both projects are in the for sure plans to be built. Red line is being taking serious, once again. which is really a good thing. The carpool also is being proposed and taken seriuosly. You gotta love it!!!!

Fern~Fern*
January 27th, 2006, 04:01 AM
How about elevated rail lines on top of all the HOV lanes in the Southland.

This was an idea for the Hollywood FWY a couple of years ago. Never ever heard anything after that.

godblessbotox
January 27th, 2006, 04:08 AM
now that would be somthing to see... and its has a plus side! it does not involve the distruction of buildings.. the path is already there.

klamedia
January 27th, 2006, 08:57 PM
Both projects are in the for sure plans to be built. Red line is being taking serious, once again. which is really a good thing. The carpool also is being proposed and taken seriuosly. You gotta love it!!!!

Not trying to piss on your parade "Ferney" but the Red Line is far from becoming reality. Remember talk is cheap. They've had plans for the Red Line and subways all over LA for 50 years now. They've even had propositions pass and still none were built with the exception of the Red. I don't want us to start thinking that just because Villiraigosa wants this that it will happen. Even if Waxman rescinds the methane gas ban, Yaroslavsky still has Zev's law on the books when voters in 1998 banned any local funding towards any subway tunneling or construction. And he said in the LA Times that he feels if put before voters again today, it will be the same outcome. This has to be overturned imo, before the Feds and State would even think about matching the funds needed for such a huge project. And thanx to the Daily News as of late, it's been reporting rumblings in the Valley about, "why build a subway down Wilshire when we won't ever use it?" The entire county has to be in agreement that this is what we all want. Hence, why I brought up the question of 'Is Los Angeles county too big?' 'Should LA break away from the rest of the county so that it can concentrate on building its crumbling infrastructure?'

Fern~Fern*
January 27th, 2006, 11:28 PM
^^ I hear you (K), and completely understand your point of view. I also would like to see more public transportation in the city. The only thing is that what can I and those who want changes do. Besides to vote if it was to appear on the ballot. That does not solve much, seriously what else can you or would do? To break away from LA County, to complicated and costly and really throws you of the subject of transit. I personally love driven my vehicle, but also understand that something needs to be done. On the meantime let's hope that LA gets it's fair share from Arnold.... I hope that I made sense!

LANative
January 28th, 2006, 12:46 AM
I just hope more transit comes to L.A. soon.

godblessbotox
January 28th, 2006, 12:57 AM
..its not going to happen tomorrow so creating posts and treads everyday about the same thing is just a waste of your time... but when someone says an new project is started.. then ill be excited

klamedia
January 28th, 2006, 02:46 AM
lsdkjf183491

godblessbotox
January 28th, 2006, 03:00 AM
...? what the hell is that?

LANative
January 28th, 2006, 04:15 AM
lsdkjf183491
Whats does that mean??

PotatoGuy
January 28th, 2006, 05:08 AM
How about elevated rail lines on top of all the HOV lanes in the Southland.

I've always thought of that.. why not just make all freeways like the 105? its convenient, the freeways run through places of interest, the space is there.. etc... i think itd b great

lochinvar
January 28th, 2006, 07:17 AM
"No one wants train lines down the center of freeways like The Green, they don't promote density. Though I would be behind a train down the center of the 405."

There is a subway line in Chicago traversing the center of the expressway (Eisenhower?) going all the way to Oak Park. I used to ride it and man, everyday it's pack full of passengers. There is also another subway line in Washington, D.C. going all the way to Vienna, Fairfax County, Virginia. I tried it. Same thing, it's pack full of passengers.

Facial
January 28th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Yeah, I've sorta felt sort of uncomfortable with that statement about train lines in the center of freeways not promoting density.

What is the reasoning behind this?

fredcalif
January 28th, 2006, 04:42 PM
How can China build Subways everywhere and the USA has not money to build new subway lines?

We can not afford to build new freeways anymore, It takes years and years to build a few lines of freeways and hundred of millions. It is ridiuculous. Even Mexico is about to build a bullet train.

klamedia
January 29th, 2006, 05:45 PM
How many of you take the Green Line on the reg? I do! And I tell you it is an unpleasant experience standing their waiting for a train with noise levels close to unbearable. Also I could just imagine the concentration of pollution that is being inhaled by waiting passengers as cars whoosh or sit and idle in traffic next to you. Their are two differences though. The Aviation stop would be an example of the kind of stop that is desirable, close to a freeway but not down the center aisle. The Rosa Parks station is an example of stations we would want to avoid. Along with that, freeway trains don't promote the kind of transit villages(density) that are popping up all over the Gold Line. No one wants their apt. or condo that close to a noisy and dirty freeway. I could care less what Chicago or DC has, I want our transit system to be better and more innovative those cities. We already have the most striking subway stations ANYWHERE in the country. Let's create a modern transit system, not one that mimicks Chicago's which was built over 100 years ago.

klamedia
January 29th, 2006, 05:52 PM
How can China build Subways everywhere and the USA has not money to build new subway lines?

We can not afford to build new freeways anymore, It takes years and years to build a few lines of freeways and hundred of millions. It is ridiuculous. Even Mexico is about to build a bullet train.

Wars on 2 fronts, endless peacekeeping missions around the world, the breakup of unions, corporations going oversees, a trillion+ dollar debt. The country is stretched too thin for massive investments in infrastructure. Reality: America isn't what it used to be.

Æsahættr
January 30th, 2006, 05:05 AM
WTH does it cost that much?

lochinvar
January 31st, 2006, 10:04 AM
"Reality: America isn't what it used to be."

What was it before? And which specific timeframe were you talking about? It's been more than 200 years now since the time the U.S. was born.

klamedia
January 31st, 2006, 07:20 PM
"Reality: America isn't what it used to be."

What was it before? And which specific timeframe were you talking about? It's been more than 200 years now since the time the U.S. was born.

We are now living in post-modern America. Some might even call it America's "Neo-Imperialist" era. Most of the big infrastructure undertakings were built or planned during America's Industrial Age, pre-WWII. The country seemingly is unwilling to spend billions upon billions on new infrastructure like Roosevelt's Social Security or Public Housing programs. No one is talking about building 5 or 6 huge 30-40 story towers to house the homeless downtown. The best remedy that the "powers-that-be" are mantra-ing is to dump them back in the same place that they were found to get them out of downtown LA. Personally, I think the country is stretched too thin with pet foreign policy projects to really concentrate or invest in its interior. Remember New Orleans??