Nice one gareth. My punt would be to amend them as follows

i. To reinforce and to strengthen acknowledgement and further promote Liverpool as a global brand and a great world city.

iv.To promote a positive attitude and holistic approach to growth, change and
progress in the Liverpool City Region


v.To encourage enterprise (possibly add??? as a central tenet on which to build any meaningful international revival.)
(We are having and building a meaningful International .... no doubts!)

To promote utilisation of sound urbanist principles with regards to 'city building' and other planning potential???????
(Planning is a bone of contention and will have it`s own working party)
How about "Support the maximum potential in all planning opportunities for their success, diversity, enrichment and benefit of the city region"
vi.To identify and actively promote vital business sectors important
for a global city to possess (e.g media infrastructure)

vii. To encourage and support greater co-operation between councils,
agencies and communities of the Liverpool City Region and to encourage
stronger links between Greater Liverpool and the wider, 'Liverpool Bay
Area' in regards to culture, business and infrastructure

ii To promote and celebrate Liverpool's cultural diversity and call
for a tolerant and rich culture where everyone is respected and valued


I think the one about diversity is a nice one to round the objectives off with.. people always remember the first and last things they read... first one says basically what we want to see..... does this say how we are going to explore it all though?

Giving everyone a look at the look of the site is a good idea.... remmeber though, we should not have a comprehensive navigation bar... things like 'media' for exxample, should go as a sub section, behind 'enterprise... same for all the urbanist stuff, neighbourhoods, density, mixed use or what ever would all be sub sections of 'urbanism'

See the bolds just some suggestions.....

Constitution wise, not too much but not too little either.....we need some wiggle room as well as being positive, precise and to the point (maybe :) )

No negatives unless their is a desire to put them right.

What is it they say for a sound idea for a business plan, one sheet of A4?

The other thing is under promise and over deliver.....we shall therefore have to be resolute and by jingo we are.

I could live with those additions.... a little wrdy but the sentiments round up the aims we have discussed nicely!

Ok here's mine, I've deliberately tried to make it shorter.



To promote Liverpool as a world city with a global brand.

To encourage investment into the Liverpool City Region.

To promote a positive attitude and approach to growth, change and
progress in the Liverpool City Region.

To encourage enterprise.

To identify and actively promote vital business sectors important
for a progressive global city to possess e.g. media, tourism, digital technology.

To encourage and support greater co-operation between councils,
agencies and communities of the Liverpool City Region. To encourage
stronger links between the Liverpool City Region and it’s neighbours.

To promote and celebrate Liverpool's cultural diversity and support an inclusive community for all.

I don't think we need the following one
To encourage investment into the Liverpool City Region.


It is the main focus of the host of agencies and statutory bodies, I think that the type of investment we want to prioritise is fully stated with the enterprise one!

Well Done Doug!

Ok here's mine, I've deliberately tried to make it shorter.

To promote Liverpool as a world city with a global brand.

To encourage investment into the Liverpool City Region.

To promote a positive attitude and approach to growth, change and
progress in the Liverpool City Region.

To encourage enterprise.

To identify and actively promote vital business sectors important
for a progressive global city to possess e.g. media, tourism, digital technology.

To encourage and support greater co-operation between councils,
agencies and communities of the Liverpool City Region.

To encourage stronger links between the Liverpool City Region and it’s neighbours.

To promote and celebrate Liverpool's cultural diversity and support an inclusive community for all.
)


I think Doug has got the closest of anyone to encapsulating it all, I agree with everything he says, and he has it in quite a few words.

I still have some questions, however.


What is the purpose or vision of the Society (what makes it necessary?)

What are its aims - what change does it seek to bring about?

What are its objectives - how will it go about its work - will it do things, support others, criticise, lobby, educate?


I feel like everyone will be very pissed off with me repeating these things, but to my mind the society needs:

A purpose - a rationale - a reason to exist (no-one has articulated that clearly)

Clear Aims - what it wants to achieve, relevant to that purpose (Doug is I think nearly there on that)

Objectives - concrete things it will do to achieve its aims (Doug seems to have a clear view though, in his use of words like encouragement and support, which I have highlighted

.....

There are other ways of looking at it, I'm not saying mine is the only way, but some kind of purpose is necessary.

I think Doug's nearly cracked it, but it needs one more push. No-one except me and Blabs filled in the online consultation posted earlier on the thread, which is disappointing - if half a dozen people have just written a few thoughts on those questions, we'd have answers to my questions now. It would only take 5 minutes for everyone to fill in, and it would effecitvely write this thing for us.

Still, it's looking good, thanks Doug for drawing that together.

As a counter to English Heritage and the voice of the people of Liverpool?

You are right... this is all pedantic but needed.


The outline 'mission statement' should say something like
21st Century Liverpool intends to promote how the city can take its role in the world as a city of genuine international importance. We aim to promote ideas across the board as to how we undersand what the city can do to achieve this aim as well as to identify areas that we see as hindering the city's ambitions

... from which.. positive ideas for ...blah, blah... critique ofthe barriers WE see as getting in the way... backward planning and development restrictions, statism, regionalism, quangoism..... etc?


I have been a little concerned myself that the objectives do not state out the original proposition, i.e. looking at how that city can reestablish itself on the global scene... the structures we need to develop to achieve this... and what we need to do (or drop) to create a platform that will enable us to build and then utlise these structures!


The objectives are the objectives though... we do not have to answer all polis good questions in this specific list... do we? The rest of the consitution will provide the whole picture... don't forget, this is only a bit of the bigger document.

Here was the questionnaire that only Blabbern and I completed. I honestly think at least the first question would be a good one for people to have a go at, maybe question two as well. I agree that you don't need to be specific about activities until later.

My go at answering those questions....only took 5 minutes, if everyone did this I'm sure it would be useful, espeially for those who haven't been able to attend a meeting yet.

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for? For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fufill?

The Society exists to promote a culture of progress and modernity for Liverpool and its city region, believing that this is necessary to enhance the standard of living and quality of life of those living in, working in and visiting Liverpool.

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool? For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entreprenuerial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?

Liverpool as a more prosperous and dynamic city, with more autonomy over its fate. A city that plays a bigger role for its region, in the country, and internationally. A city that cherishes its heritage and is also bold in laying down a modern heritage for future generations. a city that capitalises on its diversity and the global connections of all its people and businesses


QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work? For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about thingss? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?

The Society will promote its aims by forming and disseminating ideas and proposals for change. It will offer itself as a critical friend to all those organisations and agencies with a role in shaping the future of Liverpool and its city region. It will comment on proposals, participate in consultations, and where necessary challenge and campaign for change. The Society will seek to increase dialogue concerning urbanism, and act as a conduit between professional interests and organisations and the residents of Liverpool and its city region.

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity? In its first year, what are the main things it should concentate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?

To examine and propose changes to the draft tall buildings policy of Liverpool.

To critically appraise the City of Culture proposals and make suggestions for increasing the benefits to Liverpool from this event

To campaign for growth at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, ensuring that the economic risks of delays to development are understood.

To spread awareness of the "City Region" agenda, and develop constructive proposals for how this could work for the Liverpool city region.

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on? Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see.



work on the tall buildings policy, followed closely by the city regional agenda.

These were Blabbernsmoke's answers

Poli,

I think those are excellent questions, and are a good way of focussing the discussion and making the whole project even more practicable.

I very much agree with your responses to the 5 questions.

ONE
What is the society for? For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fufill?




TWO
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool? For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entreprenuerial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?


For this question, I would prefer a bit more emphasis on the modern/progress approach. I'd also like to see more mention of free markets and less interference form unaccountable quangos and stupid councillors.

I want a pro-business vision. Pro-development. Dynamism.

THREE
How could the society work? For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about thingss? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?


Agree with everything you've said here. Perhaps we need more discussion about membership... we intend to be an inclusive society, welcoming people to participate and offer their intellectual and financial resources. etc.

FOUR
What are your priorities for such activity? In its first year, what are the main things it should concentate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?

Agree again.

But want more emphasis on encouraging a pro-development, pro-growth agenda. Lobbying local press and councillors (perhaps gaining support of business people) to challenge the idiot-quango-councillor agenda which is stunting potential.
FIVE
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on? Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see.

Challenge WHS, influence of EH.

take a look at these. I think the message in the first objective is the one that has been lost... trouble is now that they have become rambling again.
The first two are now also very similar!




To provide an aspiration and vision that aims to see Liverpool able to re-establish itself as a city of both renown and genuine importance internationally.

To promote Liverpool as an aspirant world city and the name as the global brand.


To promote a positive attitude and approach to growth, change and
future focussed progress in the Liverpool City Region.

To provide a counter to negative and reactionary forces that work on the understanding that the city has no future other than heritage based???????

To encourage enterprise in the Liverpool City Region and for entrepreneurship to be respected as the primarary engine of economic growth and well-being.

To identify and actively promote vital business sectors important
for a progressive global city to possess e.g. media, tourism, digital technology.

To encourage and support greater co-operation between councils,
agencies and communities of the Liverpool City Region.

To encourage stronger links between the Liverpool City Region and it’s neighbours.

To promote and celebrate Liverpool's cultural diversity and support an inclusive community for all.


I fully agree with yours and blabbs points... I want to see a stronger focus on free markets, a more modern/progressive attitude and a shift toward less governemtn inteference... that thesee take on a more facilitatory role than the current command thinking, but do we need that in these small set of objectives? They are more points to create the contextualisation we need when we start building on our ideas....

remember.. these are only the objectives to go in a loinger constitution... they do need to incorporate the broad sweep of these comments (and the ones I mentioned below etc) .... the idea of the objectives is to provide the essence of what the group is about... if we get to tight and proscriptive we end up tying ourselves to too tight a remit as we a re bound by these remember with regards to the charity commission... nouty members can tie us in knots that we are breeching the constitution etc....

Rather than trying to get exactly these issues into the objectives I think a few positional papers on this would be more suitable... to go on as immediate 'beef' when we announce ourselves and tell people to go to the site?

Poli hit the bullseye with:

"What is the purpose or vision of the Society (what makes it necessary?)

I tried to come up with a one liner, easy to remember! short and hopefully to the point.


21st CL is an independent group that supports Liverpool's regeneration through it's architecture, infrastructure, media, heritage and people.

Poli hit the bullseye with:

"What is the purpose or vision of the Society (what makes it necessary?)

I tried to come up with a one liner, easy to remember! short and hopefully to the point.


21st CL is an independent group that supports Liverpool's regeneration through it's architecture, infrastructure, media, heritage and people.

Thanks Doug, and I wonder if there is some reason why this is proving to be so difficult? If we ask the right questions (what is the purpose of the Society, what does it want to achieve), and listen to the answers, the task is done. I think you've gone a long way to doing that.

There has been too much "drafting" and not enough talking / listening, in my opinion. If you draft before you have talked, you usually don't have much clarity or buy-in. And yet apart from you and myself and Blabbers, people aren't really answering the basic questions that need to be discussed and answered.

Anyway, any news from Tony or Gareth on drafting? My personal view is that full discussion hasn't really taken place, because whenever I ask questions like "what is it for" I get told "well that's detail for later"...., and then we see a rather confused and detailed draft!

Unless there is clarity - what it's for, what it aims to achieve etc., then you won't get buy-in, it will not be taken seriously, and people will not join or listen to it. I couldn't join something as some have discussed it, because I don't know what it is or why. It needs focus. My input has been intended to be helpful, because I would like to see the Society work. So a plea, for when draft does see the light of day, is that we can see that the comments that have been made, and the limited discussions that have taken place, are drawn on. Start thinking strategically rather than tactically - shopping lists of things people are interested in are fine, but dont constitute a coherent purpose or cohering set of values / aims for a Society.

:)

Poli hit the bullseye with:

"What is the purpose or vision of the Society (what makes it necessary?)

I tried to come up with a one liner, easy to remember! short and hopefully to the point.


21st CL is an independent group that supports Liverpool's regeneration through it's architecture, infrastructure, media, heritage and people.

As one liners go another arrives `ber bum` :)

I could live with that.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17308464%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=power%2dto%2dthe%2dcity%2d%2dnot%2dyet%2d%2d%2dminister-name_page.html


Whilst all the above is going on, maybe you guys can organise yourselves to draw attention to the implications of Liverpool not being in the first tranche of city regions and the reasons for this in order to:

1) Focus attention on the wider ineptitude of LCC by identifying what is preventing it getting its act together in the ways suggested by the Minister.

2) Focus attention on why 'Merseyside' can't function as a unit and identify what is responsible for this and how it needs to be addressed. I suspect that it might be Liverpool throwing its weight around and difficulties we seem to have 'compromising' with others, whatever. It could be that 'Merseyside' was a non-starter from the beginning and needs to morph into something appropriate for the 21st Century, erm, a city region?

3) Shame local Labour politicians into campaigning for the city region rather than their own personal agendas.

4) Consider if there are any 'legal' issues resulting from giving some 'core' cities economic advantages over others.

A sustained letter writing campaign to the Echo, radio sound bites, dedicated website highlighting the above shortcomings would be a good start. All of this can be used to illustrate how Liverpool is marginalised and its politicians appear to be complicit in this.

Couldn't agree more L8, one reason I put the city region agenda in my own short "priority" list for issues the 21C Society should address. I am disturbed that the new CEO of LCC has not put this on his list of five priorities. It is very much a role for him, to forge closer links with his peers in other Greater Liverpool authorities, and also to enourage his own staff to do the same in their own functions and at their own levels. The big messages from Manchester and Birmingham are that building city regional identiy requires political and officer leadership from the largest city as well as elsewhere. The 21st Century Society could legitimately query the lack of leadership shown, and help pressure Liverpool's current leadership into demonstrating more of a lead in this area.

21 CL has its first ginger member as of now, even though it hasn't yet been formed!
I trust you chaps to draft a proper constitution and aims and objectives, then I'll sign up.

We are all passionate about our city, and it appears that it's up to 21CL to propose a new dynamism absent in the current hand-out culture.

I've only just browsed this thread for the past few minutes, and having only joined a fortnight ago or so I hope I'm not 'green' to offer support, but it's a very exciting idea.

Where would Liam Fogarty fit into all of this?

... but don't spend too much time writing things down. We live in rapidly changing times in this city. There's a time for pontification...

And it's not now.

Its gonna be a hard fight and I wanna help, I already have something going down with the council and also know a few things on their plans etc. Though I wont say on here. There is actually fundamental curuption and old bastards that need to change or leave.

Its also worth mentioning that the council does have a number of 'boards' which people should get on to change and challenge the current thinking

Its gonna be a hard fight and I wanna help, I already have something going down with the council and also know a few things on their plans etc. Though I wont say on here. There is actually fundamental curuption and old bastards that need to change or leave.

... or be exposed in a satirical 'mag' (too ambitious?) Pamphlet (Still too ambitious?). What the frig? Fucking leaflet then! ;) Come on 21CL, get the fuck out the closet!

Nice idea L8 but we need to work/fight on their level I hate to say.

We need to do what they do but better. We don't need another Liverpool Vision. We need an organisation that will speak truth to power (as a Quaker friend of mine often says). An organisation that will campaign to bring to the attention of the citizens of Liverpool all the missed opportunities and petty corruptions that exist at the heart of LCC and its various committees and result in our city missing out. Whatever media we have at our disposal should be utilised. Like yesterday.

Dreamer, I've just re-read the last page and before yesterday nothing was posted from the beginning of June. Maybe 21CL has separated itself away from SSC? Maybe with all the recent guacamole the whole endeavour has imploded? Hope not. Anyone have an official 'line' on where 21CL is currently at re this and that?

I imagine Tony is working away on all this behind the scenes L8, but it's probably quite hard doing everything in open Forum, like trying to write a book by committee, so hopefully little working groups could do whatever is required to expedite the formation of the Society. I've certainly had quite a bit of PM contact with Tony about the Society in recent weeks, swapping ideas about how to progress at least bits of the agenda, and the reason for doing it as PM rather than on here was simply to try to speed things up a bit, not to be secretive.

So hopefully I'm not alone in that, and I hope others have been PM'ing and offering to help Tony on this project, including Gareth who was going to try to help co-ordinate the job of getting the aims and objectives together. It's a pretty simple job, as long as it's understood as "thinking" rather than "drafting", so let's hope to see something we are all content with quite soon.

I am still of the view that without clarity on aims and purpose, it will lack credibility and all come to nought, and I'm a bit disappointed in myself if I have failed to persuade others that this bit should be easy but also important - and not, as some may think - going into difficult detail that isn't necessary at this stage. My questionnaire earlier on, which Blabs completed, could have written the whole thing, if half a dozen people had given it a go.

Incidentally, I am with you that there is no point in some kind of amatuer Liverpool Vision, the Society (if I am right about the real common aims people have for it) has to be about challenge, needle and smart-campaigning via leaflets and press notices. I politely called that being a "critical friend" in one of my earlier efforts, but that is a bit of a euphemism.

Tony, how about a short update on progress sometime in the next week, just to keep us all posted?

Funnily enough there was a meeting this evening that I had to pull out of. I don't know what has happened yet, but it was to sort out the basics and just get something going.

I have just got out of bed to check the footy so will hopefully hear something later tonight about how things went.


I think we all got a bit too tied up in the minutae of those objectives, bringing in relevant poiints for the group as a whole, but innappropriate for the objectivees which I think just needed to extrapolate a bit on the basic remit which for me is to be positive about future growth and to explore how the city can best regain its international status and revival!

What ever, things are moving.. so get your thoughts together on what ever passion/expertise you have. I have spoken to a few forumers about governance (anti region, pro metropolitan structures.. rationale) and building a media industry/infrastructure.

There are all the other big issues to do with spatial development, enterprise and economy... international trading, but also we need to define how all this is based on the micro, qualtiy of life and environment etc....


I have just posted something about the barrage, but how does this fit into our international recovery???? it certainly does, but help to put some logic behind this statement! How do we build a transport infrastructure to service a compact city and it's wider metropolis? ALL tasty stuff that we should be pontificating on.... but we have fucked around with a few points for a constitution... let's move on... hopefully we have done tonight?

Time to dust all this off again? A few people had a go at these questions, Doug seemed to get very close to finding the best balance, here were my own answers then (might have slightly differences now though).l

--
Originally Posted by liverpolitan
My go at answering those questions....only took 5 minutes, if everyone did this I'm sure it would be useful, espeially for those who haven't been able to attend a meeting yet.

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for? For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fufill?

The Society exists to promote a culture of progress and modernity for Liverpool and its city region, believing that this is necessary to enhance the standard of living and quality of life of those living in, working in and visiting Liverpool.

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool? For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entreprenuerial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?

Liverpool as a more prosperous and dynamic city, with more autonomy over its fate. A city that plays a bigger role for its region, in the country, and internationally. A city that cherishes its heritage and is also bold in laying down a modern heritage for future generations. a city that capitalises on its diversity and the global connections of all its people and businesses


QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work? For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about thingss? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?

The Society will promote its aims by forming and disseminating ideas and proposals for change. It will offer itself as a critical friend to all those organisations and agencies with a role in shaping the future of Liverpool and its city region. It will comment on proposals, participate in consultations, and where necessary challenge and campaign for change. The Society will seek to increase dialogue concerning urbanism, and act as a conduit between professional interests and organisations and the residents of Liverpool and its city region.

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity? In its first year, what are the main things it should concentate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?

To examine and propose changes to the draft tall buildings policy of Liverpool.

To critically appraise the City of Culture proposals and make suggestions for increasing the benefits to Liverpool from this event

To campaign for growth at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, ensuring that the economic risks of delays to development are understood.

To spread awareness of the "City Region" agenda, and develop constructive proposals for how this could work for the Liverpool city region.

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on? Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see.

Work on the tall buildings policy, followed closely by the city regional agenda

Can I suggest that new members who are interested, read back a bit and then have a go at those five questions? If we can get a decent number of these filled in, I think we'll have the bones of a really powerful lobby group in place.

Ok, wow, firstly a heck of a lot of thought and time has already gone into this process, I'm really impressed that it's gotten this far, and it'd be a real shame if it stalled indefinitely at this late stage.

I did try to read through the whole thread, but overwhelmed by the prospect of 27 pages of ideas I just read the first and last 5 pages to get an idea of where this thing started and where it's ended up. All fascinating and very exciting!

So, in response to Poli's suggestions I thought I'd throw in a few views from an 'insider-outsiders' perspective, as someone who's been involved in the forums but not in the 21CS discussions to this point.

One of my initial observations is how quickly what began as an essentially reactionary group, which aimed to offer a counter voice to the negative influence of the heritage lobby when it came to new developments based in Liverpool, became a political beast with a massive remit of social change, inclusion, regional growth and modernist ideologies. Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing, and to some extent it's an inevitable bi-product of trying to ge to the root causes behind this negative, anti-development climate we're in, but I have ended up being slightly concerned that the societies aims may have become too broad and general for it to effect any real change at the ground level.

For example how on earth are we, as a small group of people with a specialised interest in development going to 'promote Liverpool as a world city with a global brand'? I mean how are we going to do that directly? I don't see that we can, other than effecting change on a smaller scale, such as encouraging world class developments and attracting world class developers, which, as a bi-product, promote Liverpool.

Anyway, I'm rambling and don't want to come across as negative in any way shape or form, as what's been put together so far is excellent.

I did a quick bit of research on EH to see how they sell themselves, and realised, as many people have already pointed out, you need to start with a good tag-line that sums you up in one sentence:

'English Heritage exists to protect and promote England's spectacular historic environment and ensure that its past is researched and understood'.

And I think Doug has pretty much done that job with his one liner summary:

'21st Century Liverpool Society is a newly formed independent group that supports Liverpool's regeneration through its architecture, infrastructure, media, heritage and people'

Secondly, you need a list of stated objectives, these need to be short, concise, specific and I'd say no more than 5 in number. Again, here's EH's example

English Heritage works in partnership with the central government departments, local authorities, voluntary bodies and the private sector to:


Conserve and enhance the historic environment
Broaden public access to the heritage
Increase people's understanding of the past


Once you've got those laid out you then need another list which outlines the practical ways in which you aim to achieve those objectives. And at the end of the day if you can't find several practical examples of how the society can effect change in one of it's stated objectives, the objective needs to be dropped - it might be a nice idea which everyone agrees with, but if the Society isn't able to sepcifically and effectively bring about change in that area, then it's someone else's remit.

So, I'll pitch in a few of my ideas into the mixing pot, to be shot down in flames as appropriate.... I'll use Poli's questions as a starting point: (at this stage these are more rambling thoughts rather than concise answers)

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for? For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fulfil?

The society should exist initially to provide a counter voice to speak positively into the overwhelmingly negative planning environment which currently exists in the city.

To provide a rational, intelligent and well educated alternative to the conservative heritage lobby's argument that most new developments, especially tall developments, threaten both the cities historic and cultural heritage.

To promote new developments which show the type of creativity, boldness and architectural merit which has previously made this city world renowned.

Currently no single group appears to be fulfilling this role, with a positive, pro-development (and height) agenda. Whilst several groups appear to be consistently fulfilling a negative, anti-development (and height) role. Thus the society would provide an important balance to the cities planning process.

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool? For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entrepreneurial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?

To be honest there's not much more I can add to Poli's original answer:
Liverpool as a more prosperous and dynamic city, with more autonomy over its fate. A city that plays a bigger role for its region, in the country, and internationally. A city that cherishes its heritage and is also bold in laying down a modern heritage for future generations. a city that capitalises on its diversity and the global connections of all its people and businesses

All I'd say is to create an open and transparent planning environment which is supportive towards developers and actively encourages submissions from world class architects.

And to create a culture of pioneering planning which will rival London and other major worldwide cities in the scale and ambition of individual projects.


QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work? For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about things? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?

This is a very important question, although not an awful lot of thought seems to have gone into answering it (proportionally).

Here's a list of a few practical things which immediately spring to my mind

* Provide a tangible, physical embodiment of the societies aims through regular meetings, attendance at planning appeals, a functioning website and appearing in the local (and potential national press).

* To disseminate our ideas through the website, the publication of literature, writing to the press and attending public consultation meetings.

These first two goals will help to show the people of Liverpool that not only is there a real alternative to the restrictive heritage agenda, but that there is a well organised, motivated, active society who are promoting those ideas.

There are many ways to achieve these goals, from simply ensuring that a representative is present at all important public consultations and planning appeals, to ensuring that people are responsible for writing letters and articles to the press responding both to planning applications and regional and national policy changes in relation to planning.

A website seems to be somewhere in the making, and this can be used to disseminate our ideas in a positive and persuasive manner to other members of the public who might be interested and open minded.

The organisation of a 'vision team' who are skilled at design and renderings, as well as good photographers to create inspiring visual representations of how we believe the city could and should look, and potentially even submitting proposals for future developments.

Developing good links with members of the LCC planning committee, and interacting positively in a way which would lead to pro-active, pre-decision consultations, rather than simply reactive post-decision rants.

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity? In its first year, what are the main things it should concentrate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?

One of the first things I believe the society should do (assuming the aims, objectives and constitution have been established) is to conduct some sort of development audit for Liverpool over the last 5 or so years. We constantly quote a small number of developments and planning decisions, but do we really know how many applications have been made for buildings over 10 storeys, and how many of those have been approved, rejected or reduced in height? Putting some quantitative analysis to our qualitative reasoning should be a very important first step and arm us with that all important media grail, statistics.

Get involved in a number of carefully selected upcoming planning applications where we can have a positive influence (and not just simply throwing ourselves behind anything that moves and is over 10 storeys).

Writing a number of letters to the local press which although relating to specific developments would provide a platform to communicate the societies agenda. Even an article specifically on the formation of the society isn't beyond the realm of possibility. This is something I can at least throw some effort at.

Making a more formalised database of photographic records of the changing city, including photos of planning proposals and models etc. Again, something I'm already trying to do, but can help with.

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on? Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see.

Right now picking one or two proposals that we can get involved in, one being the Brunswick tower proposal, using the decision either as a positive launch pad for our activities if it goes in our favour (ie. 'look what the city can achieve with this sort of positive planning regime) or if it's negative, starting a campaign along the lines of 'look what the city has rejected - this has to change!'.

Another example would be the 'New new world square' as it's likely to be highly contentious and could generate a lot of public support for the society if we kick up a fuss about it.

I also think we should aim to take some positive steps towards finding common ground with EH, so that we're not simply written off as an 'anti-heritage' lobby and dismissed. Examples could be their 'buildings at risk' campaign, find a building we all agreed needs saving and drum up support for EH, just to confuse them! (And save the building of course!)...

Well, that's more than enough to be going on with, I hope some of it's of use, and sometimes a fresh perspective is better than none at all....

And as a closing note, if just a small number of people applied themselves with the same dedication, passion and commitment to this society as John has to his save the waterways campaign (without the vitriolic antagonism) - think of the impact it could have on this city..........

This is all great stuff. When I help people set up the formal stuff behind a new not-for-profit group, before setting up legally, I ask the group these kind of questions.

Then I can help the group get formally set up e.g. legal governing documents etc.

Effecively, all such a group requires is:

1. 3 plus individuals to be trustees (a role that entails as much work as the group takes on).

2. A legally applicable set of rules (teh structure and wording will depend on the needs, activities and intentions of the group itself).

3. A bank account (if the group is to raise funds, donations etc).


Thats it, strictly speaking. Once set up, then the real work begins. i.e.

Agreeing an overall mission

Setting strategic aims/priorities

Defining measurable objectives to achieve those aims

Actually doing the planned activities with allocated roles and resources.


For a further nosy about my organisation, look at www.lcvs.org.uk

I am available to meet with any interested parties. If it's a weekend and I'm around, I can still meet and just give myself the day off the following week. As such, I'm pretty flexible.

Excellent! I am only a bit player in this, so hopefully others will also respond to these excellent postings. Tom, I agree there was an element of "scope creep", and also that we didn't pin down just what it was that people really wanted - the last of the five questions was specifically intended to help identify that critical factor that would define our aims.

Please can others - those who have not yet done so - have a go at the five questions? It's very easy and only takes a few minutes, and will help distill the thinking and work of all us to date. All it does is sort and prioritise all the thinking and work we have done - we stopped at the point at which that was necessary. I'm happy to have a go at synthesising the results, and others can also - this should provide everything Buggedboy or others need to get going.

I have a feeling that the emerging aims of this Society are to promote high quality contemporary architecture and design in the regeneration of Liverpool, and to encourage the conditions in which more and better contemporary development can enrich our urban, economic and social fabric. In other words, it does seem that the core objective is probably to promote contemporary development, but a subsidiary one is to promote the city so that the demand and conditions are there for such developments to take place. I could be wrong though, and once others fill in the questionnaire, we will have a better feeling.


QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for?
(For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fulfil?)

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool?
(For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entrepreneurial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?)

QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work?
(For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about things? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?)

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity?
(In its first year, what are the main things it should concentrate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?)

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on?
(Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see).

For example how on earth are we, as a small group of people with a specialised interest in development going to 'promote Liverpool as a world city with a global brand'? I mean how are we going to do that directly?

Perhaps it is a tad ambitious to expect that a society of this size could influence such a thing, but in a way there is every chance it could.

Remember, this society is entitled by statute to comment on planning applications of all kinds as "The Liverpool 21st Century Society" (-is that the title?) This society is as entitled to comment and make representations as all the other groups who comment on applications and in fact, will be mentioned in the officer and committee reports when applications are considered, and may even be mentioned in committee meetings.

As an aside, perhaps it would be a good idea if somebody drafts up resposnes to applications and then people can comment on how it can be changed etc for submitting a final draft to the planning department, as and when consultations are welcomed on planning applications.

This is a very easy thing for this society to do, and it will not only potentially influence planning decisions by adding another, more progressive point of view, but will also get the society's name into the public domain.

How many other cities have a 21st Century Society that campaigns and comments on planning applications, offering a progressive perspective? All cities have a Victorian Society, etc. But progressive voices are seldom heard.

So to answer this, the society can contribute to a global brand in two ways:
1) Potentially helping great developments get the go ahead that could be seen by millions of people world-wide, and;
2) Representing the city as a voice of the progressive and forward thinking.

Great response UrbaniseD - and yes, I agree with your points, the 21CS could have a much larger impact on the national and global image of the city, but the point I was making is that such an impact would be a secondary, bi-product which would naturally follow on from achieving our primary objectives, which should be, as Poli has outlined, to promote high quality contemporary architecture and design in the regeneration of Liverpool, and to encourage the conditions in which more and better contemporary development can enrich our urban, economic and social fabric.

So it's a question of priority, that's why I was concerned about having the goal to promote Liverpool as a global brand as the first objective - it's not directly achievable by our actions alone, although it should come about indirectly if the society works effectively. Our stated aims should be things that we can realistically affect, change and alter. Outside organisations will judge the society based on it's stated aims, and if they seem too vague, or too ambitious, they're less likely to take it seriously. So I'd move that aim into the background, and focus on what we can, realistically as a group of motivated, intelligent, passionate people, achieve in our city in the short term. And as you quite rightly illustrate, if we do that job succesfully then we will inadvertantly achieve that objective anyway! Win win! :)

Hi all. Ive had a couple of PMs in relation to this and will reply when I surface, phoenix like,from within the paper mountain in my in-tray.

Meanwhile, fingers crossed for Brunswick Quay!

I am in and would like to focus on housing please

Time to dust all this off again? A few people had a go at these questions, Doug seemed to get very close to finding the best balance, here were my own answers then (might have slightly differences now though).l

--
Originally Posted by liverpolitan
My go at answering those questions....only took 5 minutes, if everyone did this I'm sure it would be useful, espeially for those who haven't been able to attend a meeting yet.

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for? For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fufill?

The Society exists to promote a culture of progress and modernity for Liverpool and its city region, believing that this is necessary to enhance the standard of living and quality of life of those living in, working in and visiting Liverpool.

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool? For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entreprenuerial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?

Liverpool as a more prosperous and dynamic city, with more autonomy over its fate. A city that plays a bigger role for its region, in the country, and internationally. A city that cherishes its heritage and is also bold in laying down a modern heritage for future generations. a city that capitalises on its diversity and the global connections of all its people and businesses


QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work? For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about thingss? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?

The Society will promote its aims by forming and disseminating ideas and proposals for change. It will offer itself as a critical friend to all those organisations and agencies with a role in shaping the future of Liverpool and its city region. It will comment on proposals, participate in consultations, and where necessary challenge and campaign for change. The Society will seek to increase dialogue concerning urbanism, and act as a conduit between professional interests and organisations and the residents of Liverpool and its city region.

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity? In its first year, what are the main things it should concentate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?

To examine and propose changes to the draft tall buildings policy of Liverpool.

To critically appraise the City of Culture proposals and make suggestions for increasing the benefits to Liverpool from this event

To campaign for growth at Liverpool John Lennon Airport, ensuring that the economic risks of delays to development are understood.

To spread awareness of the "City Region" agenda, and develop constructive proposals for how this could work for the Liverpool city region.

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on? Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see.

Work on the tall buildings policy, followed closely by the city regional agenda

Poli, I don't think i could add,apart from 1 & 5 to the answers you have given.
For 1 & 5 I would say that as a matter of urgency the society should do all in it's power to change peoples attitude re the naming of our region.
It's quite clear that 'Merseyside' is deeply unpopular with many people and I feel that we should go forward under the 'Liverpool' brand.
If there is indeed to be a 21st century Liverpool then Merseyside has to be dropped,we can't have Liverpool as just another district of Merseyside.
If we do not succeed in this then there will be no need for a 21st century society for Liverpool.

We should engage at every opportunity with Councils/Public/Private bodies etc..to this end.

bloody hell guys, you have been busy.
Poli.. I think your questions are essential if a solid start is to be made... I will have a go at making my contribution over this weekend.

Remember though that we do not have to be too proscriptive... as the fun is in the exporation of how we get a dynamic city (which I hope we all actually want).. it ia about proposing and testing theses as much as anythikng.

Great responses - come on everyone else who hasn't yet filled it in, we need some answers, even if you don't want to join the Society or you don't believe it will change things. Those who haven't yet had a go, please spend five minutes on it, that is all it needs, to jot down the main things you believe a society or campaigning group could do for us. If you are too busy to answer them all, just questions four and five would be useful.

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for?
(For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fulfil?)

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool?
(For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entrepreneurial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?)

QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work?
(For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about things? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?)

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity?
(In its first year, what are the main things it should concentrate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?)

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on?
(Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see).

I have to admit I've not had the time to read through this thread in the past. I'll give the last two questions a go then, and I'll try to do the others if I get chance :)

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity?
(In its first year, what are the main things it should concentrate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?)

*To provide a balanced, knowledgable and objective view on future development in the city, without agenda.
*To provide balanced, knowledgable and objective views on individual planning applications.
*To provide a mouthpiece for those in the city who feel that heritage issue play too great a role in decision making.
*To promote the theory that large scale, high quality development, when properly conceived, can enhance the city's historic skyline.

Actually, that sounds more like an answer to question 2!

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on?
(Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see).

World Heritage Status. this issue is very blurred at the moment and the heritage lobby use that to their advantage. We need to find out the truths about WHS: what it actually does for the city; why we applied for it; why we need to keep it; where exactly this affects (particularly in light of the Brunswick decision) etc. Most importantly, we need to challenge societies/individuals who claim that developments will adversely affect the WHS. On what authority can they say this? Do they contact UNESCO in every case to ask their opinion? The slightest mention of heritage issues seem to send a planning application into chaos these days, so we need some hard and fast rules so that genuine heritage concerns can be listened to and spurious concerns can be dismissed without them creating any hinderence to the planning process.

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for?
To help promote, and support innovative and holistic urban design and development in the Liverpool urban area.

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool?
To help others invest and realise a better future for the working and residential population of Liverpool.

QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work?
By being focused on planning issues, applications, concepts and cultural events. By attending those events or public meetings that affect the lives of the people of Liverpool. It should develop a profile that ensures that the Society is consulted by invitation by the appropriate consultants or Government on all the above issues.

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity?
Consult and proact with Liverpool Vision, English Heritage, NWDA, the Council Planning Dept and the Media. The media should be an initial priority to develop awareness of the Society.

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on?
To remove the blanket World Heritage status, and to have the status applied to specific buildings and pockets.

Instead of being a bit precious about all this why doesn't somebody draft a letter to the Daily Post, Ruth Kelly, etc about the Brunswick Tower decision that we can all sign/send? Like now, tonight?

Instead of being a bit precious about all this why doesn't somebody draft a letter to the Daily Post, Ruth Kelly, etc about the Brunswick Tower decision that we can all sign/send? Like now, tonight?

Yes, good idea - why not put that on the Brunswick thread? We are trying to focus the discussion about 21CS so that some draft aims can be agreed by those who are interested. A letter is a letter, but the purpose of the Society will I daresay be longer-term and more proactive than simply writing to tell Ruth we think she's a deranged transvestite or whatever it is people seem to be wanting to say.

Yes, good idea - why not put that on the Brunswick thread? We are trying to focus the discussion about 21CS so that some draft aims can be agreed by those who are interested. A letter is a letter, but the purpose of the Society will I daresay be longer-term and more proactive than simply writing to tell Ruth we think she's a deranged transvestite or whatever it is people seem to be wanting to say.

Nothing has changed re 21CL since last time. Brunswick provides an illustrative example of most of the concerns that are raised above. All this need for a priori fine tuning misses the point. There is an issue (Brunswick) that can be used to launch a small critical voice. What we had last time was good enough. It failed because ultimatley people were not prepared to invest in it. It ran out of momentum. Brunswick could rekindle some momentum. It's hardly rocket science.

Gift horse?

Mouth?

Anybody?

It seems obvious to me that anyone with even the slightest appreciation of beautiful things will be bitterly disappointed that this structure was not given the go-ahead. The building is the prettiest thing Liverpool has attempted to create in what must be half a century; but still it has been knocked back by soulless politicians who neither understand such things nor care for the development of, and let’s face it, our still struggling city.

There doesn’t seem to be any point looking for a scapegoat in all of this. Kelly is a politician who probably known’s little about the plight of Liverpool, and even less about the area it was to be situated. This obviously leads us to the people that advised her on the implication of the project. If, as has been stated, this include Liverpool County Council and English Heritage (among others) then they obviously have their own agendas for why this tower was not to be built.

It seems obvious to most people on this forum that the agendas of those in control in Liverpool do not match those of the people who have to live and prosper in the city. Maybe on one side they want complete control of the new developments for self-aggrandizement or to secure their legacy in the city. God knows what EH are playing at! St Paul’s in London it surrounded by a veritable mountain-scape of tall’s that block its view from multiple angles of the city. Why is it only the three graces that get this sort of special treatment?

The old adage ‘people get the rulers they deserve’ may well apply here. If we at the ‘bottom’ are not prepared to take a risk and do something about the farcical state of our councils decisions on such building projects, then why should they bother to take corresponding risks to reverse the fortunes of this shell of a city.

Maybe I am being a bit harsh in the people in charge of Liverpool; over-reacting a little maybe! One only has to go near our building site of a city to realise that somebody has got their finger out and is actually having a go at dragging Liverpool into the new century. Even-so, it appears from reading the many well-informed threads on this website that much more could, and indeed, should be done.

Nothing has changed re 21CL since last time. Brunswick provides an illustrative example of most of the concerns that are raised above. All this need for a priori fine tuning misses the point. There is an issue (Brunswick) that can be used to launch a small critical voice. What we had last time was good enough. It failed because ultimatley people were not prepared to invest in it. It ran out of momentum. Brunswick could rekindle some momentum. It's hardly rocket science.

We never agreed what the Society was to be for, people had very long and straggly shopping lists of aspirations and ideas, and there was no process to consolidate these. Various people tried, but it ended up mired due to a lack of process. The 5 questions in the survey provide a bit of structure, so it's possible to see what are the priorities, and the core aims people have in common. You are right - it's not rocket science, but it is necessary. We were getting to this point when Tony had his heart attack, and as far as I know (but I know I'm not on everyones mailing list) it's not gone further.

If people complete the five questions, or at least questions four and five, then next week I will summarise and synthesise these. There is already a good response, but it should be better. As far as is possible, I hope the synthesis will then reflect the core and consensual aims people have - that is those people who believe there should be a Society to project the values of people here into the wider world.

So, L8, I hope you are one who will fill in the questionnaire, and that your comments are amongst those I draw on when I produce a synthesis next week. Without a strong and cogent agenda, any society is fucked from the start, and it's vital to focus on aims that people cohere around and that will motivate people to participate.

If you are proposing some specific immediate reaction to Brunswick, then I look forward to seeing what you propose, and I may join in and I'll support you. But please don't de-rail this attempt to revive 21CS just to say we should be doing something now, and then not do it yourself.

... Even-so, it appears from reading the many well-informed threads on this website that much more could, and indeed, should be done.

Welcome swiv, good post - we are gathering up answers to this short survey, to find out what is the core aim of a possible society that forumers can set up. If you are interested in participating, can you fill these in? I am going to synthesise the results next week.

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for?
(For example, why do you think there is a need for such a society? What need that is not now met will it fulfil?)

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool?
(For example how should and could Liverpool change (in a way that the Society could promote)? Is this about embracing progress, change, modernity? Being more entrepreneurial? More ambitious or assertive on the wider stage? Having a better or higher profile?)

QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work?
(For example, what type of activities and role do you envisage? Should it just meet and talk about things? Should it agree a position on issues and issue press notices? Should it petition on major issues? Should it set up a website to promote its aims? Should it try to educate or share knowledge and ideas - eg set up channels for dialogue with city planners, developers, investors etc?)

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity?
(In its first year, what are the main things it should concentrate on. What would you be willing to do something about? What is your main issue where you have strong views, something to say, and believe the Society should do something?)

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on?
(Think of something practical that the society could come to a view on and campaign for change. Just one example, the one that you'd most want to see).

I agree with the idea of a letter, we need an immediate response to catalyse the undoubted frustration of a large portion of the city. This could be a great first 'outing' for the society - just write a letter which concisely, and intelligently summarises our collective frustration and dissapointment with this decision, explaining why the tower would have been of great benefit to the city but pointing out that it was our own council who rejected it in the first place, and that a radical overhaul of the planning system is required if this city is ever going to move into the 21st centuary.

And just sign it on behalf of the 21st centuary society. We don't need headed note paper, we need to get our voice heard on issues like this and galvanise the cities dissapointment into support for our cause.

I'm away this weekend otherwise I'd do it, but please, someone do it, post it hear, get a few people to ok it and get the bugger sent off. I'm too gutted to even give this any more thought right now, but if nothing else this should push us into action!

Once more dear friends... into the breach!.. :horse:

Poli,I now change my mind about priorities.
I agree with Liverpool8 and Tom,we should submit a letter re Brunswick to the local press ASAP.
After reading everyones comments you could compile one and even submit it to the vote on here,just to make sure the majority agree.
I know this could cause a slight delay but if you set a time limit this could be minimised.
Going forward this should now be our priority regarding every major decision made or about to be made in this city.

Kung, L8 will draft a letter if he believes it is so urgent, and I will, as I have promised, summarise the responses to the survey next week in the hope that this helps us take the next step in forming a Society.

This is a big and long-term campaign, and it would be wrong to allow ourselves to be derailed by the diversion of writing a letter. Once the Society is formed no doubt it can react to such things, but it is not yet formed, and we have not yet agreed its principal aim or aims.

I hope someone will write a letter, but there is no Society to send it from, so it might as well just be one of those standard letters that people copy and sign individually. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same thing as establishing a Society that can start to change opinion in the city about future development. We need both.

Kung, L8 will draft a letter if he believes it is so urgent, and I will, as I have promised, summarise the responses to the survey next week in the hope that this helps us take the next step in forming a Society.

This is a big and long-term campaign, and it would be wrong to allow ourselves to be derailed by the diversion of writing a letter. Once the Society is formed no doubt it can react to such things, but it is not yet formed, and we have not yet agreed its principal aim or aims.

I hope someone will write a letter, but there is no Society to send it from, so it might as well just be one of those standard letters that people copy and sign individually. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same thing as establishing a Society that can start to change opinion in the city about future development. We need both.

Poli,of course you are quite right.
My last post was born out of frustration about not being able to do anything about this awful decision re Brunswick.

O.K. here goes:

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for?

To provide a mouthpiece for those people who believe that Liverpool's true role is to be at the cutting edge of the modern world and who feel that the current obsession with 'heritage' denies them a voice.

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool?

The vision of the society should be the positive development of Liverpool in terms of architecture, economy, physical infrastructure, environmental awareness, education, social wellbeing and harmony and in terms of national and international recognition. These issues should not be seen as independent of each other.

QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work?

To act as a society, it needs to be more than just a talking shop. It needs to produce its own ideas for achieving the society's vision and have a forum for developing those ideas into practical proposals that can then be adopted by the society and made public in several ways - through a website, by dialogue with developers, press releases etc. An ability to produce good graphics and drawings would be a great asset.

I see the role of supporting or opposing developer's proposals as secondary. The society needs to prove it has its own vision before commenting on others. We must not be seen as being purely reactive.


QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity?

To develop a formal structure for the society so that we are not just individuals who meet up in pubs irregularly. We need division of responsibility (e.g. the appointment of a press officer), regular meeting times and agendas etc.

To develop a brand and image for the society that gives us at least the same recognition as Wayne Colquhoun and his 'trashy tarts' whilst not just serving as the mouthpiece for the views of one individual. This will help ensure we become both the rent-a-quote and the source of information that the Post and Echo, Radio Merseyside etc rely on and also helps us attract new members.



QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on?

In homage to the much-missed City on the Water, why not a visionary approach for the ongoing development of Liverpool's dockland?

My understanding was that 21CL had hit the buffers because it became all encompassing and consequently ran out of steam as it increasingly over reached itself. In terms of the questions Poli has positioned as relevant:

QUESTION ONE:

What is the society for?

The society will only have credibility as a clearly focused pressure group. Its focus should be on improving the quality of debate about the built urban environment within Liverpool, and in particular championing the cause of modern buildings of the calibre of Brunswick Tower. Its aim should be to challenge and expose the ineptitude of LCC’s planning committee. This might take variations on the following form:

· It would identify the members of the planning committee and critically appraise each members track record paying particular attention to occasions where political expediency has overridden aesthetic considerations.
· It would call for a transparent account of any height policy and challenge it as appropriate.
· Its aim would be to BETTER THE GRACES in terms of adding to the city’s architectural heritage. As a consequence of this it would argue for the position that the buildings on Mann Island and Princes Dock should outclass the Graces rather than defer to them.
· For every major proposal it would undertake a ‘forensic’ examination of the developers track record and critically appraise the developers capacity to deliver a project. This information would be available on the organisations website.
· In particular it should seek to raise awareness of architectural/development issues related to New World Square, the central docks and Wirral Waters given that these will be development hotspots over the next few years.

End of. It should avoid over-reaching itself at all costs.

In terms of organization. Minimalist should be the keyword. John set up his website on his own and it functions adequately. He has been interviewed on Radio Merseyside, his message is being disseminated. In other words – it often only takes ONE committed person to set something up. What we don’t need is a talking shop that flounders because of egos. Whatever happened to the website that Bammy was setting up for Tony? Can this be rescued and put online ASAP?

If it can’t, a website needs to be set up and maintained. This website will include an overview of development opportunities missed and taken. Its menu might include examples of successful urban developments elsewhere as a sort of baseline for what we should be aiming for. One person should be able to do this.

The society should be essentially web-based. It should elect a nominated spokesperson to speak to the media and deputies as appropriate. I would suggest Tony Sebo for the role of spokesperson because he already has a profile within the city. For new building proposals the society should canvas opinion via its website and pieces of critical analysis should be presented on the website for critical review before being offered to a wider public in the form of a press release. Invitations to provide critical reviews should be posted on the website. It should not be assumed that these need to be home grown. Some of the best pieces of analysis I have read on SSC have come from Longford and Bammy.

At this stage, IMO, my answer to question 1 is as far as the society should go. The media will take it seriously if it sticks to issues it appears qualified to talk about. If it sought to go beyond this at his stage it would be in danger of losing its credibility. It should aim to be online ASAP. Any conceit that we are setting up some kind of full on Foundation at this stage and consequentially need a constitution and a range of agreed protocols before we do anything needs to be guarded against at all cost. John Burns has illustrated the way to go – we should follow him.

In terms of my own commitment - critical analysis is all I can offer.

to explore the dynamism we must tap to ensure that the city is a vibrant metropolis into the future.. everything else hangs (is explored positively, with regards to urbanism and change etc)... architecture, culture, economics and wellbeing are all subcategories that are aided with an active city.... good points bnelow... I suggest that we do not get too anal and deliberate... one of the great things about this forum is we all have different ideas, but mainly aspire to the same thing... we need a framework for exploration.. that's all!

Martins suggestions seem to be most complete as far as I would envision the main push of a positive and aspirational group.

Tony, I think you and Martin are on the more long-term / aspirational end of the spectrum of opinion, and others seem to have a more direct and "buildings-related" agenda. I am going to summarise the questionnaires this week, but a summary will have to balance those with a "big canvas" agenda (like you and Martin) with those who want a sharper focus on campaigning for modern architecture (like Tom , L8, Juxta and - incidentally - myself). It's up to everyone what they do with that summary and synthesis, if it's not right for people then it's not right, I am going to do my best.

yes pol.. I think that you are right.

Do that with the responses as there are loads of excellent points. I will add my thoughts asap... dead mouse over the weekend!

To add though that my own points on why we should support modern architecture, and how the accumulation aids the development of a properly functioning city hasd been well regearsed on here. 'aesthetics' should be a secondary concern as it is the function and relation to the street etc that are mosty important... get that right... and by lobbying for such we could help do so in the city... then we can all debate about what exactly is 'good modern' (or good heritage lokylikey for that matter) till the cows come home and the debate won't crucify the city!!!!

I fully support a campaign for modernity as far as urbanism and architecture go.. it is the core message to be put up by the group.

I've read all the posts, and also looked at other threads, and the answers are there I think - and are consistent with Tony's vision and the spirit of everyone who has contributed.

We all like Brunswick Quay, and we all dislike City Lofts Phase 2. Those two developments crystalise the view here, and the belief that something is going wrong in the way the city is planned and developed. We want to do something constructive about it - to persuade others to share our view that high quality modern architecture is better than drab pastiche. Instead of merely writing on this website about what we like and don't like, we want to organise and express a collective voice. We have, between us, considerable knowledge and energy, and collectively our voice should be as loud and persuasive as those who campaign only to preseve the past, or protect views from a field in Bebington.

There are lots of organisations who are interested in the wellbeing of the city, in its economic strength, solidarity, in its image etc., and we don't need to replicate those efforts. But there is no organisation in Liverpool that seems to represent those who believe that contemporary modern architecture and design are both a reflection of regeneration and a catalyst to regeneration itself. There doesn't seem to be a campaigning group who feel it is necessary to take-on English Heritage on those occasions when their actions harm the city, to say that they are wrong and that the city needs better. There is no organisation that campaigns to encourage bold, high quality contemporary architecture and design as part of the regeneration and growth of Liverpool.

The method by which the Society wishes to do that seems quite clearly to be one of constructive engagement with the city authorities, agencies, media and the people of Liverpool. We want to make the case that Liverpool deserves and needs high quality modern architecture, and that the current generation has as much right and responsibility to build the city as previous generations. Rather than merely criticising (although it should do that when necessary, for example by opposing applications for pastiche blocks such as City Lofts 2) the Society should actively encourage the city to invite high quality new developments and to value modern design.

So, guided by L8's "minimalist" advice, and Tony's view that more detailed priorities and activities should be determined later, I'd say that the society has a simple aim:

"The 21st Century Society exists to promote high quality contemporary architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool."

What do people think? Is that an aim everyone can sign up to?

Liverpolitan,

This basically sums up what Liverpool needs in its development/archiecture scene. The city has more than its fair share of heritage obsessives, and this focus you have outlined would give it a modern voice. A voice that shouts "good, bold architecture", "large scale development", "No to unnecessary curtailments and heritage obsession" and "No to mediocre architecture." It is clear from this forum that people up and down the country are appalled and sympathetic to the city for losing out on Brunswick proposal.

There is something terribly wrong when Brunswick Quay proposal (what could have been a European icon and created an amazing vista on its own) is thrown out locally and nationally. And then something as vulgar, ugly and underwhleming as this latest City Lofts proposal is embraced. It is so perverse that this should be the case. It is a deranged and perverse logic and an attempt to hold Liverpool back, and to make it into something that is woefully unimpressive. Into a tatty little seaside city with no future, and no more potential than as a stop off for tourists. Not a real city!

I don't know if the people on this forum made representations when the application was submitted. Individual letters are considered by the planning department during the consultation phase. I think an organisation like the 21st Cebtury Society could have a bigger impact when making representations.

People can complain all they like on an internet forum but they might as well be talking to themselves. Representations need to be made through the proper channels.

"The 21st Century Society exists to promote high quality contemporary architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool."

What do people think? Is that an aim everyone can sign up to?

I can sign up to that. I think it makes things simpler, and easier to communicate to the outside world.

Looking down the thread.... I understand that the formation of the society didn't hit the buffers by overstretching itself. I was due to attend a meeting with Gareth, Tony, and a few others.... and rang to make my apologies. Gareth was there I think, but Tony called to say he was feeling unwell... I think most people know what happened that weekend. I'm sure Tony would have continued to galvanise this if he had been able to... its his baby and I hope he can pick this up again.

QUESTION ONE:
What is the society for?

Similar to Liverpolitans quote, but slightly amended.


"to promote high quality architecture and to further the wider aspects of the regeneration of Liverpool."

"to provide a unified voice and identity to those who voice pro-development opinions and act as a counter to anti-development protests (where appropriate)".

QUESTION TWO:
What should be the vision of the society for Liverpool?

A vision of a city whereby the city promotes excellence in all its activities, be it promoting physical, economic or social regeneration.

QUESTION THREE:
How could the society work?

A website, by dialogue with developers, attendance at planning meetings and development exhibitions. Newsletter and our own "design comments" reports to act as a counter/support CABE/EH activity.

To not be afraid to object to the design of developments e.g. redesigned NWS.

QUESTION FOUR:
What are your priorities for such activity?

To develop a single "brand" for the society, without which we will always remain a cacophony of angry individuals.

To engage with key parties e.g. local planners/architects/journalists etc to ensure that the society becomes an automatic referral point for opinions on regeneration projects. The group must be able to counter the heeritage lobby muscle (where appropriate).

QUESTION FIVE:
What is the single practical issue that you believe HAS to be up there for this Society to work on?

Providing a coherent response to new developments being proposed and for those comments to be attributed to a cohesive, distinct entity.

Great post, buggedboy - I think the wording around the links between good quality architecture and regeneration are important to get right and your comments are useful there. It would be really useful to know who else is in broad agreement, and also who would like to attend a meeting.

There are people who have done a lot of the behind-the-scenes and other work, like Doug and Gareth, to get the Society this far - and this short bit of work to clarify the aims is simply to help them and others who want to meet and take this forward. I'm not volunteering to co-ordinate the next stage, I have just volunteered to help clarify the central aim, and will now assist in other ways if I can.

B4mmy is right, Tony's health problem led to a pause, and one reason I've tried this quite simple task of clarifying the aim is because it was an easy task but hopefully one that shared the load a bit with others, like Tony, and let's them concentrate on the bigger picture.

Anyway, I'm happy to try to attend a meeting, I've popped up before for a meeting about the society and will do again if I can make the day - would be good if this was before Christmas, so we can get the momentum going again.

Can I ask then who is keen to attend a meeting, and who is prepared to organise a meeting, eg put a date and venue out? We now have a core aim that seems broadly accepted bar some possible editing to improve the wording, and there seems to be reasonable consensus about how the Society should operate - so really it's time to formally constitute ourselves, elect officers (I'm not standing for any position, by the way) and then get to business!

Well??? I've taken some time to do this, at a time when I am really busy with work and personally, and find a complete silence.....!

People get worked up when a decision doesn't go the right way, but unless there is some form or mobilisation, all that complaining goes nowhere and does nothing...

Crikey luv....

I will be there, unless it's a Wednesday, or alternate weekends... :)

Bammy's here (www.worldfamousbabes.com) on Wednesdays.

We're not to judge Bam Bam.

Can I ask when a meeting has been arranged for?

I am available to meet the group (but not this weekend or next week as Im on holiday with my lady on our 1st anniversary..I would lose vital organs if my attention was diverted anywhere other than her next week).

If a date is set I can come and advise the group on the options available.

Let me know when the group meets next (other than above) and I will get myself to the meeting.

Bammy's here (www.worldfamousbabes.com) on Wednesdays.

We're not to judge Bam Bam.

Damn it Awayo, I promised I wouldn't let on you are a ladyboy if you kept that quiet...

Anytime for me at the moment. I suggest not too soon to be short notice but not too long to when everyone goes mad over Christmas. People are always busy with shopping, office parties that they'd sooner not attend etc.

Saturday 16th Dec, mid afternoon?

I am between Yorkshire, Leicester and London at the moment and doubt I could make it, but I am heavily involved in the development industry so might be able to offer opinions on submissions and things. Is there somebody I can leave an email address with? Is there an email list going round? I think I've asked this already, and can't remember what was said.

Cheers.

good points....

Just a quick reply to the statememtn below that it is my baby. it is not. .. the idea was raised when Martin, Gareth and I met in Haqrdman St ages ago and I just raised it on here.... I am happy to defere to anyone who has the drive to take such an initiative forward. Hopefully I would be able to play a supporting role, but if this is not so does not mean any group would be deficient in any way!

I also should say that the holistic conceptys behind the city should be as important as the architecture... all playing a supporting role within a good urbanist framework.

Polis piece ages ago about a Rinces Ave renaissance has lots of the issues that must be covered... I remember him and L* came up with some truly great stuff.... (as did others, I know)

Enterprise... any city that truly works is base on entrepreneurial ambition from its citizens... most things follow on or are afforded by this drive... so culture, housing... what ever.... need to be seen a supporting the types of structures that enable viable/sustainable neighbourhoods to flourish...

I will stop rambilng now as I am even confusing myself!

Just to follow up on Poli's 16th Dec date, I have now booked a conference room in Central Library 2nd floor, William Brown Street for that date from 1:00pm to 4:00pm.

Just to follow up on Poli's 16th Dec date, I have now booked a conference room in Central Library 2nd floor, William Brown Street for that date from 1:00pm to 4:00pm.

Thanks very much Doug. As it's a Saturday, I'll do my best to come along.

As for the purpose of the Society. Though I like the idea of promoting good contemporary architecture, there is a problem there. We all seem to like Brunswick Quay and dislike City Lofts Mk II in equal measure but we have a lot of problems when it comes to something like the new Liverpool Museum or the Mann Island development.

That's why I think the 21c Society should be more than just a group of people reacting to architectural designs (although we should be more informed on this topic thanks to agent Doug and the others with access to inside information).

Most of us are amateurs and I like the idea of an ideas forum - but an informed one - researching the history of the city, looking at evidence of best practice from other cities, pooling knowledge and promoting ideas. As we are not developers, we can suggest towers the height of the Burj Dubai or an underground system more extensive than London if we want but we can temper our ideas with practical knowledge.

Our previous attempt to get this off the ground IMO got bogged down in trying to formulate an agenda. It was all encompassing, I felt we were dealing with too much. I think L8 mentioned on an earlier post that maybe a more focussed group without the danger of over reaching itself, may be the way forward, it certainly merits discussion.

I take your point regarding City Loft phase II and Mann Island, I personally would be hard pressed to support either of these developments (for different reasons) on a public forum. It illustrates some of the issues to be looked at.

Thanks very much Doug. As it's a Saturday, I'll do my best to come along.

As for the purpose of the Society. Though I like the idea of promoting good contemporary architecture, there is a problem there. We all seem to like Brunswick Quay and dislike City Lofts Mk II in equal measure but we have a lot of problems when it comes to something like the new Liverpool Museum or the Mann Island development.

That's why I think the 21c Society should be more than just a group of people reacting to architectural designs (although we should be more informed on this topic thanks to agent Doug and the others with access to inside information).

Most of us are amateurs and I like the idea of an ideas forum - but an informed one - researching the history of the city, looking at evidence of best practice from other cities, pooling knowledge and promoting ideas. As we are not developers, we can suggest towers the height of the Burj Dubai or an underground system more extensive than London if we want but we can temper our ideas with practical knowledge.

Martin, I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the society should be all about ideas, that goes without saying. Indeed, if it has the right focus, it will attract talented amatuers and be buzzing with creative ideas. And, the overall aim that the survey suggested in no way excludes that. However, I think you need to accept that there is a small but important difference of emphasis. Yourself, and I think to an extent also Tony, seem to give more emphasis on the wider discussion around urbanism, whereas others place greater emphasis on the more instrumental aim of campaigning for modern architecture. I don't think either interest is self-exclusive, but I'm surprised you have come back as you have, especially as you imply that a focus on campaigning for modern architecture would somehow be reactive (eg responding to proposals we do not like). It would only be reactive if members made it so - if people wish to use the Society as a forum for creative thought, for floating ideas and helping the city dream, then it can and will be.

This constant failure to agree on the main aim is a major problem - I thought we'd finally got there, but seemingly not. It drains and dissipates energy, and delays us ever doing anything. There are, I hope you will accept, a fair number of people who here who have expressed an interest in a society that will campaign to encourage high quality modern and bold architecture as part of the regeneration of Liverpool. Yes - there are sometimes grey areas where one persons quality is another persons rubbish - and the Society will hopefully be a place for lively and well-informed debate and might not always instantly come to a consensus on its view - but with the major issues virtually everyone agrees here for a remarable extent. You say "there is a problem here" as though it makes such an aim untenable, but there are major issues that we all do agree about. We all agree that tall buildings policy and its "non policy" replacement is deeply problematic. We all agree that arbitrary height reductions are unhelpful. We all agree that the issue of "sight lines" from various points in Wirral is an issue that needs tackling. We all agree that there is a need for more attention to high quality and innovative architecture rather than cheap and pastiche design - no-one is happy, for example, with the qualiyt of the hotel and other developments around Kings Dock. Of anyone, prehaps you have sometimes tended to be more accepting of such drabness on the grounds that it's a necessary stage in regeneration, and that better will follow - and Woody has his longstanding and perfectly respectable position of being positive about development that brings wealth - but the general view is that we need a society that will put up challenge for better quality in the future.

There is huge frustration about the BQ decision, and yet we have no Society that is credible and that is contacted by the DP or Echo for comment on the decision. They will phone up the opposition, who will celebrate their success, but our side of the debate react as individuals, with letters and emails from individuals. An established and credble Society would be routinely contacted for comment - and would itself anyway get its press notices lifted by the lazy local press.

You say we are amatuers, as though that disqualifies us from comment and influence and action. NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many of the most effective campaigning groups in all sorts of sphere of life have grown up from the passion of small groups of amatuers. Didn't Gareth speak at the BQ public inquiry? What is wrong with being an amatuer? As it happens, in our wider number, we actually do have a lot of relevant professional skills, either from students or those who have studied relevant areas, or who work in development, regeneration, renewal, architecture, planning etc. And there are more skills available to us than I think you might appreciate - but only if we get our act together, put together a credbile "offer" of what we are about, prove that we have the potential to be a useful grouping as well as an enjoyable one to be part of, and stop this endless disagreement about what it's all for. More people will join once we form and leap beyond the bounds of SSC - and here I raise another issue. This Society has to grow outside SSC, and people should not feel threatened by that - people can still meet up regularly and have walkabouts and chats and do things through this forum, even if the Society grows to involve people who aren't from or take part in SSC. I believe it could attract around 50 members within a year - including professionals in architecture and planning and regeneration - the majority of whom won't be regular posters here - if it has the right focus and profile as a society that can make a constructive contribution to the renewal of Liverpool. If we are scared of success and failure then we can just piddle around on abortive meetings and endless inconclusive threads here about what people want from a Society. But I don't think we should be scared of success or failure, we should just give it a go and see where it takes us!

I think we are reaching a point where we need to decide what this Society is about. The general view has been that we want and need a society that will campaign for modern architecture as part of the regeneration of Liverpool. You don't seem to agree on this aim, which is disappointing. Have we reached an impasse? Can you participate on the basis that the general view of the central aim is slightly different from that you initially offered?

Consensus saps. Ultimately, all it needs is one or two - at most three determined individuals with a similar vision to carry it forward. The Formby Firefox Fellowship is successful in getting its message across as long as it sticks to firefox issues. The moment it departs from this agenda people lose interest. No one gives a fuck. The list of urban issues related to architecture is almost endless. Might it be possible to manage this by having a series of ongoing online special interest discussion groups to cater for the wide range of interests expressed on this subforum rather than aiming for the society to have position statements on everything remotely urban before it can launch itself on the citizens of Liverpool? If these ongoing discussions groups work (and by 'work' I mean attracting contributions from people who can be perceived as having an expert knowledge base rather than an amateur one) then the society will have succeeded in acheiving a secure base from which it can extend its remit. Remember, the media likes it simple. It likes to know who to call when it wants a 'trashy tarts' quotation etc. Perhaps the society is destined to be more of a club (or 'salon' as we say in Lark Lane ;) ) in which likeminded people meet to chew the cud, give it a bit of :cheers: and then go for a walk and take pictures of buildings, stuff like that? Whatever. Know and be true to your nature.

L8, there is no need for a Society to work out its position on everything (or indeed have a position on everything) in order to form. You are absolutely right that a core aim is essential, a simple purpose, so it can attract membership and explain its purpose to others. There is a large degree of agreement around the issues raised on this forum, so we are lucky to have a core of likeminded people here. All we need is to agree upon our core aim and then move forward. One or two people are hankering after their own personal agenda which others are not so keen on - Martin in particular - and he may wish to compromise or offer a compelling alternative that will sway all those whose preference is for something more focused and purposeful than mere discussion. Or, if he can't persuade others, and cannot agree to the common aim, he may simply not join in, and a Society is by definition more important than the views of just one potential member. It's not parsticularly helpful for you to suggest that because of one post by just one person - Martin - the Society is not ready to form, and that we need to have a whole series of further discussions! If you want to set-up discussion clusters on here, do it. I remember a short while ago you felt a joint round-robin letter to Ruth Kelly was more important than forming this Society, but you didn't actually offer any text or narrative. You seem to like to offer alternatives to the Society on this thread, at a time when the Society is potentially forming. Why? Is it youthful anarchism, a desire to see chaos where order may be emerging? Is it an elitist form of scepticism, where clever you has no belief in the ability of others to achieve something useful here? Your interventions almost look like mischief, although, when you want to, you can make incredibly useful and wise contributions.

Can people with no interest in participating in the Society, or who want it solely to be a reflection of their own personal interests, perhaps form an "Alternatives to 21st Century Society" thread to discuss alternatives, so we can use this thread to organise ourselves?

L8, there aren't that many of us, we are all busy, and the sapping thing isn't consensus but people who constantly throw conversational spanners in the spokes as we try to find sufficient consensus to move forward. Now we are almost there, you say "start again".

To summarise the situation.

There is a proposition to meet on 16th December to form a Society whose primary purpose is to encourage modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool.

The Society will take a wide canvas, discussing and promoting new ideas and best practice in urbanism. It will be proactive and contructive in promoting its ideas for Liverpool. It will also react appropriately to proposals it considers seriously detrimental, such as the Brunwswick Quay decision by Government. It will become a forum for ideas and also for action, seeking to become a distinctive voice that can help Liverpool's agencies and people embrace the boldest and most contemporary architecture.

Its members will all have different views, and lively debate, but will agree some broad common objectives once they are formed. It will need an agenda if it is to be proactive. We know that potential items for the agenda will include these:

----How can Liverpool take a more welcoming approach to modern architecture and design, so that innovative and bold plans can succeed instead of pastiche? What are the obstacles to progress?

----How can Liverpool strike a better balance between protection of heritage and laying down a legacy for future generations? What is the balance between views from Everton or Bebington? What is the new thinking on these issues, and how can that be presented constructively to move the debate forward in Liverpool?

----How can high rise developments be better appreciated by the people of the city, to raise public awareness of the process whereby city planners routinely stunt and block such proposals?

There are many more potential issues for the agenda, for example some of us are interested in how the city can develop links with its sub-region and use architecture to confer on Liverpool and Birkenhead a striking "CBD" skyline that will be a beacon and magnet for the wider region. I've just drawn those issues from the discussion above, and the Society itself will choose its priorities and approach once it is working. But each could involve people in discussion, research, and also potentially campaigning - writing letters, press notices, pamphlets etc.

That is the proposition. It's not a proposal for a discussion forum alone, or one whose primary interest is to discuss urbanism as a topic - it is to organise and project its members views concerning modern architecture in the regeneration of the city. It's not what I'd personally propose, it's a summary of the most agreed-to ideas that have been expressed, my attempt to find some consensus that seems to accommodate as many people as possible, with the assistance of people who completed questionnaires and wrote up their ideas.

If we can get some agreement on this, and people turn up, perhaps those who have the ability to offer a bit more will be prepared to take up positions for the developmental stage of the Society, and maybe its first yearl. Don't wish to embarress anyone, and I don't know most of those involved, but it strikes me that we have a lot of talent who can help build things once they have a clear role - Tony may only be persuadable to accept a "President for Life" type role given his poor health recently, but there are poeple like Gareth and Doug and Woody and Bunnyman and Tom and others who have shown their practical abilities at leadership and organisation who I hope might be persuaded to accept nominations for such positions as Chair / Co-ordinator, Treasurer, Secretary. Perhaps people like Bammy might be willing to offer leadership as Communications / Web co-ordinator? What about buggedboy, or Kung Fuzi, ot Toad? They might be prepared to accept a task in setting up the Society, Buggedboy in particular has offered real help and I think we should seize such offers with open arms. There are new people, I've not met 'em, and others who don't step forward readily, who might offer to join in, but we'll need people willing to take on specific roles as well as general helpers like me. I'd be very happy to do some of the research on issues, pamphlets etc. once an agenda was agreed, and others with a similar interest, like Martin (if he joins) might also be good in that role? Anyway, running before we walk - and hopefully some new people will join in and offer their expertise and time - but I think we have the common aim, we have agreement on the fundamentals (at least most of us do), we have a date to meet, and we have good people who can make this work.

Who is up for that?

Core aim for me is simple; To support the regeneration of Liverpool.

The 3 questions raised by Poli are issues that are underpinned by one concept World Heritage Status. This is the sledge hammer the drives forward both the city planning department and the heritage organisations and is used continually to support a designed and contrived view of how the city should look and feel. Tony has rightly drawn attention to the recipe that is used to push the 'planning ' agenda forward and the almost total opposite experience that built this city in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and I am in complete agreement with him.

I recently visited the Williamson Tunnels which is, in the main a 'heritage' organisation. This group of dedicated volunteers has struggled against a number of almost insurmountable problems in their quest to open up these tunnels, to save them and for them to be a major visitor attraction. The Friends of Williamson have engaged in an heroic struggle against the forces of bureaucracy and red tape, our own city council being one of the main blockages in achieving that goal. Do I support this heritage group? totally and have made donations to assist their struggle.

I hope this partly explains my view on Liverpool, it is a complex city and if all its issues are taken on board by 21stCL we may never get this thing up and running. As the group matures there may well be opportunities to engage in a wider debate about many issues but I think to begin with it must be focussed.

Core aim for me is simple; To support the regeneration of Liverpool.


Doug, there are lots of organisations whose aims are principally or exclusively to support the regeneration of Liverpool. Why create a new one? What can we do that others are not already? It's the main aim of Liverpool Vision, for example. Also, there are many ways of regenerating Liverpool - heritage obsessives believe that conservation will regenerate the city by preserving views and promoting tourism. So that aim doesn't quite work for me, because our distinctive view is that modern architecture must play a role in regenerating the city. That is what we have in common, and that is the voice that is currently missing in the debate in Liverpool. So I don't think we can take on such a broad aim as regenerating the city without explaining our focus - it won't be credible and it isn't something you can communicate to others.

The reason I included "in the regeneration of Liverpool" within the core aim was precisely because people like you stress it, but others have stressed modern and bold architecture as much. My proposed objective was trying to include everyone as far as possible, and now your comment rows back from that and I don't think really addresses the needs of some who have offered their views. There are other societies that focus on conservation, we can join those if we want to, but those societies don't support things like BQ, and so the main focus does need to be on what is distinctive. No credible Society can change the world, or regenerate a city, it needs focus.

What is wrong to you in this statement: "The society exists to promote modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool"?

Who is up for that?

I'm 99% sure I can make it... though if its my turn to have my fella that weekend I'll have to do one at 2.30pm, so if I can declare myself available for assistance/advice/employment, and we can get to the key points early on that would suit me... I appreciate there will be lots of introductions to make for people who haven't met each other before.

I'm 99% sure I can make it... though if its my turn to have my fella that weekend I'll have to do one at 2.30pm, so if I can declare myself available for assistance/advice/employment, and we can get to the key points early on that would suit me... I appreciate there will be lots of introductions to make for people who haven't met each other before.

Great, but actually I'm not sure about a meeting unless we are confident we at least agree on the basic purpose of the Society - it might be a waste of time unless we have that agreed. So when I asked if people were up for it, I actually meant who is up for this proposition, as the platform upon which to base our discussion on 16 December:

"There is a proposition to meet on 16th December to form a Society whose primary purpose is to encourage modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool.

The Society will take a wide canvas, discussing and promoting new ideas and best practice in urbanism. It will be proactive and contructive in promoting its ideas for Liverpool. It will also react appropriately to proposals it considers seriously detrimental, such as the Brunwswick Quay decision by Government. It will become a forum for ideas and also for action, seeking to become a distinctive voice that can help Liverpool's agencies and people embrace the boldest and most contemporary architecture.

Its members will all have different views, and lively debate, but will agree some broad common objectives once they are formed. It will need an agenda if it is to be proactive. We know that potential items for the agenda will include these:

----How can Liverpool take a more welcoming approach to modern architecture and design, so that innovative and bold plans can succeed instead of pastiche? What are the obstacles to progress?

----How can Liverpool strike a better balance between protection of heritage and laying down a legacy for future generations? What is the balance between views from Everton or Bebington? What is the new thinking on these issues, and how can that be presented constructively to move the debate forward in Liverpool?

----How can high rise developments be better appreciated by the people of the city, to raise public awareness of the process whereby city planners routinely stunt and block such proposals?

There are many more potential issues for the agenda, for example some of us are interested in how the city can develop links with its sub-region and use architecture to confer on Liverpool and Birkenhead a striking "CBD" skyline that will be a beacon and magnet for the wider region. I've just drawn those issues from the discussion above, and the Society itself will choose its priorities and approach once it is working. But each could involve people in discussion, research, and also potentially campaigning - writing letters, press notices, pamphlets etc.

That is the proposition. It's not a proposal for a discussion forum alone, or one whose primary interest is to discuss urbanism as a topic - it is to organise and project its members views concerning modern architecture in the regeneration of the city."

"The society exists to promote modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool"?

Having thought about it I would like to support this statement as a core aim of the Society. I think in its wake follows issues of WHS, the city development plan, and regeneration.... and the knock on effect will be socio-economic factors. If the society can focus on a 'new world heritage' through modern, dynamic architecture... and having a loud public voice to that effect, it is a step in the direction that all of us wish to go in. I think :)

L8, there is no need for a Society to work out its position on everything (or indeed have a position on everything) in order to form. You are absolutely right that a core aim is essential, a simple purpose, so it can attract membership and explain its purpose to others. There is a large degree of agreement around the issues raised on this forum, so we are lucky to have a core of likeminded people here. All we need is to agree upon our core aim and then move forward. One or two people are hankering after their own personal agenda which others are not so keen on - Martin in particular - and he may wish to compromise or offer a compelling alternative that will sway all those whose preference is for something more focused and purposeful than mere discussion. Or, if he can't persuade others, and cannot agree to the common aim, he may simply not join in, and a Society is by definition more important than the views of just one potential member. It's not parsticularly helpful for you to suggest that because of one post by just one person - Martin - the Society is not ready to form, and that we need to have a whole series of further discussions! If you want to set-up discussion clusters on here, do it. I remember a short while ago you felt a joint round-robin letter to Ruth Kelly was more important than forming this Society, but you didn't actually offer any text or narrative. You seem to like to offer alternatives to the Society on this thread, at a time when the Society is potentially forming. Why? Is it youthful anarchism, a desire to see chaos where order may be emerging? Is it an elitist form of scepticism, where clever you has no belief in the ability of others to achieve something useful here? Your interventions almost look like mischief, although, when you want to, you can make incredibly useful and wise contributions.

Can people with no interest in participating in the Society, or who want it solely to be a reflection of their own personal interests, perhaps form an "Alternatives to 21st Century Society" thread to discuss alternatives, so we can use this thread to organise ourselves?

L8, there aren't that many of us, we are all busy, and the sapping thing isn't consensus but people who constantly throw conversational spanners in the spokes as we try to find sufficient consensus to move forward. Now we are almost there, you say "start again".





Yeeeeessssssssssss (Thank you Jeremy Paxman).

Are you sure you actually read what I wrote rather than reading your own agenda into it? Start again? I don’t think so unless of course that is what other people want. Objectively read my post sets out a framework to accommodate those who want to agree a common focused minimalist position and those who want to be a bit more discursive to be accommodated. Where’s the harm in that?

For your own reasons you volunteered to canvas current opinion about 21CL and then you produced what you claimed was a summary of that opinion. Thank you for undertaking that task. Maybe I’m wrong but you seem to have arbitrarily taken it upon yourself to steer subsequent debate in a direction that suited you and chided anyone who didn’t fall in line behind you. I’ll be kind and interpret this as a measure of your enthusiasm rather than an indication of your inability to tolerate and work with opinions that differ from yours.

In terms of your plea for people to desist from offering opinions that can be seen (by you at least) as throwing conversational spanners in the spokes. That’s one request I will be ignoring for as long as this discussion continues on SSC.

Doug has kindly booked a room for a particular date/time. The notion that anything has to be agreed beforehand is entirely in your mind. Presumably people who attend that meeting can work things through for themselves and reach a position they can work around. Who knows, maybe it will seem appropriate that more than one group is set up. I know I mentioned Tony Sebo as a possible spokesperson for the group. With hindsight I recognise that this act of naming names was inappropriate. The downside of suggesting particular people for particular roles is that it can prevent other people from suggesting themselves because they don’t want to appear pushy.

Anyway, Pol, you can rest assured that for as long as this discussion continues on SSC I will contribute to it as I see fit.

Doug has kindly booked a room for a particular date/time. The notion that anything has to be agreed beforehand is entirely in your mind...

Yes, and if there is no agreement on this one issue in advance I shall not attend. I know one other who is in entirely the same position, because while a good old chat can be fun, there is a limit to the time and patience people have for inconclusive discussions on this topic. I dragged myself up for a previous meeting, at some expense, and while it was nice to meet everyone, I was frankly a bit disappointed at the lack of progress we made. People have devoted time on later occasions, and still not agreed the principal aim or purpose of the mooted Society. Others, including me, have been confused, not being sure what the society is about. I have taken it upon myself to canvas opinion and offer up what seems to be the most common aim - years ago in an earlier job organisations and partnerships used to pay a lot of good money for me to help them in such matters as a consultant, and I have for free distilled the separate strands reflected here into something that reflects concisely what most people have in common. I am not asking for any thanks or praise, but unless people can offer a better form of words that address the views others have expressed, then I think they should just be used for now and can always be improved upon once the Society is up and running.

I am not interested in more chat about the overall purpose of the Society. We've had the chat, lots of it, and as far as possible a consensus has emerged that is sufficient to move forward. It's not perfect, maybe it won't work for everyone, but I doubt if most people share your desire for yet more circular debate. "I want it to be about urbanism", "I want to campaign for skyscrapers", "I want a regenerated Liverpool"....yes, but enough of all that, we've been round the houses two or three times and that isn't getting anywhere. It won't get anywhere if we try it yet again in a meeting or discussion either - we are past the stage where people need to know the broad purpose of the thing they are going to discuss.

The society isn't what I would make it, I'm far more on the "urbanist think tank" side personally, but that is plainly not going to command widespread support or work very well, so I'm happy to mould and compromise my own wishes into those of the most number.

For me and I suspect some others to stay involved, we need some broad agreement about the main purpose of what we are trying to achieve. Once that is established, the next meetings can be purposeful - sorting out who can help in what ways, what priorities should be, and how the Society should establish itself and grow. The point of such a society is that it has a purpose, and the purpose should not be to discuss its own purpose.

The point of such a society is that it has a purpose, and the purpose should not be to discuss its own purpose.

sounds about right to me... this needs to get moving if its going to be of any value. The other stuff will come out in the wash.

sounds about right to me... this needs to get moving if its going to be of any value. The other stuff will come out in the wash.

I agree. You and I are both happy to attend a meeting to discuss how to set up a society with this broad aim: "to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool". All the rest is up for grabs, as discussed, and there a loads of good and diverse ideas on this thread, but to you and me that is the central purpose of the thing.

Please add your name if you have an interest in such a Society. If you don't, you don't need to add your name to the list.


B4mmy
Liverpolitan

For me and I suspect some others to stay involved, we need some broad agreement about the main purpose of what we are trying to achieve. Once that is established, the next meetings can be purposeful - sorting out who can help in what ways, what priorities should be, and how the Society should establish itself and grow. The point of such a society is that it has a purpose, and the purpose should not be to discuss its own purpose.

I quite agree with your opinions on this. A simple set of core aims is absolutely essential if the heritage and backward lobbyists are to be effectively challenged. And if a lot of normal, forward thinking people are to get involved too there needs to be a simple and tangible objective that can achieve many things.

I think that the choise of aim is an excellent one.

A society that favours BOLD, MODERN, HIGH QUALITY architecture and development. This is something that can easily be fought for by making representations on planning applications. It also achieves many things at once. It challenges WHS, it challenges illogical heritage obsession, it challenges poor and underwhelming architecture, and it is in favour of an enterprising city (since bold architecture needs to pay for itself through greater scale of development.)

And so, a very simple aim such as this is not only tangible and easy for many people to get behind, but it also achieves many other underlying objectives that people may think are important. It challenges WHS which is anti-bold architecture, and by implication therefore, also challenges the notion that Liverpool should base its future on its past.

Other societies in the city realised their basic and simple aims long ago and have been writing to the planning department attacking good design and archtetcure, and large scale development. It's about time people got behind this becuase the city has already missed 100s of millions of pounds worth of tricks, and this strong voice for progressive development is needed NOW. It was needed 2 or 3 years ago!

I might also add that individual egos should not be important here. It is supposed to be about Liverpool and its future.

Great post Urbanised, please add your name to the list in post 585, so we can gather up a list of those who wish to participate in a Society with the principal aim of encouraging high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool.

Poli,

You banded my name about quite a lot on the last page as someone who is bent on being a troublemaker and not going along with the 'consensus'.

What I was trying to point out is that although we all agree on the basic concept that we want to see more and better modern architecture in this city, we don't always agree on specific buildings and designs. The Mann Island development and the Liverpool Museum being good examples.

What I was concerned about is that if we are too reactive, we will always have these problems. (By the way, being reactive does not necessarily mean that we are against something - just that we are reacting positively or negatively to what someone else has proposed).

If you are going to be so very critical, you should at least read what people write. I did not say it was bad to be an amateur - quite the reverse in fact. The fact that we are amateurs means that we are not constrained by the conventions, regulations, economic and peer group pressure of the professional. That leaves us free to discuss ideas and projects at a higher level. However, our individual expertise can help temper these ideas into practical propositions.

I wouldn't worry too much. Poli is famous for misrepresenting what people say and then attacking his version of what has been said with or without a cack-handed attempt at the moral high ground. It's all part of his unique charm.

For me, this is the kind of statement that the 21CL might be moved to make to the press/wider media.

Maro blame lies with city

WHILE we are naturally annoyed by Ruth Kelly's inexplicable decision, the blame for the loss of the Brunswick Quay Tower must lie with Liverpool City Council's planning department.

Judging by the comments attributed to the city council in Saturday's Daily Post, they seem very satisfied that they have managed to obstruct this magnificent building and lost the city £100m of investment in the process.

Anyone who follows development in this city will be aware of how the planning department regularly stifles attempts at good, modern architecture.

Recently, a project by world-renowned architect Cesar Pelli, designer of the Canary Wharf tower in London and the World Financial Center in New York, had to be reduced from 22 storeys to 17 to satisfy the planners. The tower will go ahead but with its proportions spoiled.

The Lime Street Gateway Tower has had its height reduced from 34 storeys to 28 for no fathomable reason.

It is not only the appearance of buildings that suffers when they are mutilated in this way, but also their financial viability. Reduced height means fewer apartments or office space to sell or rent, and therefore less return for the investment.

The planners often argue that if developers discussed plans with them beforehand that this obstruction would not occur. However, this is not borne out by experience. The designers of the Central Village project, above Central Station, developed an elegant 38-storey tower with the backing of the planning department. At the last minute permission was refused and the architects had to go back to the drawing board.

In the end, it is the people of Liverpool who lose out. No one would blame Maro if they now walked away from Liverpool. I really hope that they do not. In persuading a highly qualified government inspector that this project should go ahead, they have won the argument. Let us hope that some way can still be found to see this visionary building become a reality.

IMO the 21CL would be a great success if it could be relied on to issue appropriate context specific statements at such times and during the stage of discussion/consciousness raising etc. In so doing the general level of debate can only be enriched and if people on the planning committee know that their actions will be scrutinised, hopefully this will have the effect of making them think things through more carefully.

What I was trying to point out is that although we all agree on the basic concept that we want to see more and better modern architecture in this city, we don't always agree on specific buildings and designs. The Mann Island development and the Liverpool Museum being good examples.

.

This need not be a problem really. There are many more examples where people seemed to be in unanimous agreement. The Central Village scheme, the original Unity, West Tower (which only narrowly went ahead and would have benefitted from the support of this society), the Caesar Peli building, and Brunswick Quay all united people in this forum.

Granted, there are rare exceptions such as the Mann Island scheme where opinion is divided over a modern scheme. But so what? That's not a reason to stall progress of the society. There are very simple and easy solutions. Either the society could avoid comment where members are in disagreement. Or a more broad statement could be made such as, "the society supports a modern high quality scheme", or a vote could be taken at a society committee meeting, where a majority vote could determine the direction taken.

This collective voice is needed now, and I will happily add my name to Liverpolitan's list. Although I can only offer a remote assistance unless I am in the North West on business.

"to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool"

Liverpolitan
B4mmy
Urbanised

Is there an email list or not?

21CL would be a great success if it could be relied on to issue appropriate context specific statements at such times and during the stage of discussion/consciousness raising etc...

I see this as one the main points of the society... along with developing a profile high enough that it is eventually consulted on by the planners. If the society can just come together under a broad aim, and allow itself to grow, it will actually stand a chance. Attempting to clarify every last detail of its aims and objectives before it has even formed will be the death of it.

it would also be vital that the group put forward its own visions, policy suggestions and stuff... without waiting to react to the events and silly ideas of others!

"to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool"

Liverpolitan
B4mmy
Urbanised

Is there an email list or not?

B4mmy, Urbanise, I will PM next week - arrange a discussion about how to take this forward. Anyone else interested in this please add your name to the list or PM me. Tony, I'll PM about this, make sure you are in the loop. Doug, juxta, buggedboy and TOM, I'll PM you as well next week, as your posts indicate you are interested in a serious discussion about whether we can get something moving.

it would also be vital that the group put forward its own visions, policy suggestions and stuff... without waiting to react to the events and silly ideas of others!Its an interesting thought, do you mean.. like a local development plan?

B4mmy, Urbanise, I will PM next week - arrange a discussion about how to take this forward. Anyone else interested in this please add your name to the list or PM me. Tony, I'll PM about this, make sure you are in the loop. Doug, juxta, buggedboy and TOM, I'll PM you as well next week, as your posts indicate you are interested in a serious discussion about whether we can get something moving.

Ok, I have PM'd you. So I hope i can receive some emails on this matter. I could volunteer to be the society secretary, but it'd have to be remote.

I can also start the website, but my skills are limited. But a website will be essential, and the higher the quality the better. So perhaps some other on here would do a better job? I'm happy to though if no one else wants to.

Cheers

Nice on UrbaniseD, I think bammy may have already offered to do some of that, but I'm sure he'll be pleased to have collaborators. Will be in touch - but we need more names on the list, people who want to join us in a serious discussion about how to get this thing started. We can't have more "what's it all about" discussions, life is too short, enough of us now seem ready to have a serious discussion about how to start this thing and make a go of it.

I'll get involved as much as i can, if that is any help

Originally Posted by liverpolitan:
"The society exists to promote modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool"?

I don't really have a problem with signing up to this aim of the Society. It doesn't have to be the only aim and doesn't stop us from submitting our own ideas.

Therefore, please count me in.

However, if we are going to have this aim, we need to be consistent. John MK did not get on too well with people on this forum, but he gained admiration because he was totally consistent in his central belief that under no circumstances should any Liverpool dock be filled in for whatever reason.

Wayne Colquhoun gets a similar following with his 'trashy tart' approach to modern architecture.

We need to learn from these people and understand what Liverpolitan's wording actually means. We must not have a situation where we are supporting the Brunswick Quay Tower or Plot 3A and then throwing insults such as 'cheap exploitative tat' at Mann Island.

In fact, I think that Mann Island (and there will be other controversial developments) is a test of our resolve.

If we are true advocates of modern architecture, we must have a far more positive approach to proposals such as these. That is not the same as saying that we have to like everything just because it is modern. However, we need to have some understanding of the architectural thinking that goes into these buildings and the problems that have been faced in their design. Only then will we be in a position to criticise and hopefully all our criticism will be constructive.

Liking modern architecture is not always easy. Wayne Colquhoun, in defending the safe and familiar has a far easier job. I'm still not completely convinced that Mann Island is an appropriate design for the site but I do have a positive attitude toward these developments and I think that is the more rewarding approach.

Bulldozers still exist, after all...

Pencil me in. I should be starting a new job in a looney bin next week, and it's shift work, so i won't know 100% if I can attend nearer the time.

I am in full support of this though, and will devote more time to it, once I have some.

Originally Posted by liverpolitan:
"The society exists to promote modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool"?.

I can support those aims, count me in

I can support this

couple of observations:

We need to establish credibility and a tight focus on immediate actions or we will wallow about as another talk shop

We need a governance structure to ensure we stay on track, make decisions without undue talk and keep moving foward -this takes effort and resources

We need to make sure we can get agreement on aims objectives and actions (immediate and longterm ) without trying to get total consensus - it should be 'can you live with it and support it' and move on.

We need to actively solicit new members outside of SSC

What can I do and prepared to do from 5500 miles away ??

1) Provide observations and advice - I have done a lot of visioning/governance/project management stuff so these are areas I can help with.
2) Promote the society and its aims
3) Propose ,draft, comment on and support activities including media releases.
4) Try and find new members - see 2
5) Try and get access to people who may be prepared to fund /contribute to activitives and or needs (eg we need a credible identity and logo - I have a design/media friend who is interested who may help us)

As one early suggestion - I am director of a UK business and am vice chair of a non profit here in the USA so I know about the challenges of logistics for meetings etc. even for those relatively close together

Here are two things that help:

1) Use google docs to develop /share documents (its free)

https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=writely&passive=true&continue=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2F&ltmpl=WR_tmp_2_lfty&nui=1&utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-et-more&utm_medium=more

2) use skype for conf calls - its free and you can do it globally. I usually do mine at 4.30am !!

http://www.skype.com

I use both successfully

PMs and this board I suggest are not viable in the long term. A website is good provided we have the resources to not only develop it but keep it fresh.

Lets start by proposing a chair, sec , membership etc to move this beast on and target the setting up of the society (1st Jan 07 ?) actions for 07 by quarter and whos on point to make them happen.

Maybe we should seriously look at setting this up as a non profit org - maybe theres grants available? I think Tony Sebo amongst others have been down this road.

Great stuff folks - wish I was closer to get more involved. Maybe one day !

Excellent! This is the list of people who have signed-up to support the formation of a society whose main aim is "to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool".

b4mmy
buggedboy
Bunnyman
dups45
LA Blue
liverpolitan
Martin S
UrbaniseD
Woody

There are additional people who are strong supporters of the Society, but I can't see if they have signed-up to this main aim - hopefully they can confirm their position on this:

DJ Billy
Doug Roberts (has booked us a room for 16 December)
Juxtapol
Kung Fuzi
Tony Sebo
T0M

That leaves other supporters of the Society concept where I can't tell if they are signed-up to having this main aim - people like L8 - they might, but reading their posts I'm not going to take liberties by saying they definately do. Plus everyone else, who hasn't yet signed-up! More signatures! Even if you cannot attend a meeting on 16 December, if you support such a Society, please put your name down.

Agenda and preparations for 16 December meeting - please read and volunteer! If your name is not on the list and you want to help in this, please PM me and you will be put in touch with whoever is doing the activity you wish to help with.

We need to start work preparing the agenda for this meeting. I suggest a small number of people do some work in "virtual groups" (by email mainly) and then report back here before 16th. Those attending the meeting can always add things and adapt it on the day.

***AGENDA GROUP*** Can I suggest that myself and two other volunteers form the virtual group who draft the meeting agenda? Can a couple of people please volunteer by PM'ing me on that? Tony I don't want you to feel any need to do the work on this, so we can hopefully do the spade-work and then you can advise us on a draft?

***COMMUNICATIONS GROUP*** B4mmy and UrbaniseD, as LA Blue has said, a web presence and communications is a priority, so it would be good if there was an outline proposal to discuss at the meeting on the 16th. Could you two liaise directly on that, to just discuss what kind of ideas would be feasible, timescale for getting something up and running etc? We need some concrete ideas of what we can do, from people who know about these things, including roughly how much it costs etc. If you are happy with this role, can you involve whoever you need to, and others can contact you direct to offer help? B4mmy, can you confirm if you're happy to help in this way - it's just until the meeting, so we have some basic ideas to work with when we meet.

***GOVERNANCE GROUP**** LA Blue and Buggedboy - do you think that you two could liaise directly on governance arrangements and the "Society formation" process - and then work with the group setting up the agenda? Maybe those who have done work on this previously will also help - but again let's do the spade-work, and we can get Tony's advice once we have done a bit of work on it. Martin, might you be able to work with LA Blue and buggedboy on this? Could one of you (or someone else) please say if you are happy to lead this group, to come up with proposals for how we form a society and can marshall support to do the paperwork?

***MEETING CHAIR*** Also, we need a volunteer to chair the meeting on 16th December, ideally someone who is a reasonably confident and experienced meeting chair. That is not the same thing as Chairing the Society, the Chair of that meeting has the role of running the meeting and making sure everyone gets their voice heard and that the business is conducted, not chairing the society. Maybe people would like to think about that.

***SSC***** Gareth - do you think we could have some separate threads, stickified for now, so these groups can have a place to share their thoughts and get input from others? Until the Society has its own web presence, it will need something to prevent this or other all-purpose threads getting jammed up. Could we have a new thread when this one is full, plus two others: 21CS 16th December - Website and Commmunications thread; 21CS 16th December - Governance thread. In that way the people who are doing that work have a thread to use.

Sorry, being a rather bossy volunteer co-ordinator here, but we need to organise ourselves if we are to make this meeting a success. I am doing this only because Tony isn't yet up to his old energy levels on this, not because I want to run the world.

...

That leaves other supporters of the Society concept where I can't tell if they are signed-up to having this main aim - people like L8 - they might, but reading their posts I'm not going to take liberties by saying they definately do. Plus everyone else, who hasn't yet signed-up! More signatures! Even if you cannot attend a meeting on 16 December, if you support such a Society, please put your name down.

You are certainly throwing yourself into this one big time Pol. Loving the energy, hope it doesn't end in tears.

As for me. Who could not support the key aim?! I certainly do but here's the thing. Societies of this kind are not my thang. If that weren't enough, I am really busy preparing for 2008 and all my non self indulgent spare time is devoted to that so I won't be contributing to any website set up by 21CL. If 21CL circulates its agenda on this subforum or solicits opinion from its members then I will contibute as best I can. I know what I post can be seen as sniping but it isn't intended as such - it's just how my mind works.

Anyway, best of luck everyone!

I've had this dummy site for a while. The buttons don't work, but it'll give you all an idea of how I see it working. Apart from the obvious sections like INTRODUCTION and CONTACT, I've included THE AREA, to define the geography that 21CLS covers. Then I think we should have sections about projects that we feel passionately about. Developers and architects will be falling over themselves to send us images if we are in public support of them... I've broken that down into Commercial/Residential/Transport and Public Realm, and if we don't have an image or it's a brand new scheme there will be room for it in the subsection of each... either 'key projects', 'future projects' and 'planning'. There is NEWS section that can cover our responses to current and future planning applications, and a BLOG that the society members can contribute to.. a little like a message board but without the abusability of a forum. Its just a start so try not be too negative, just trying to get things moving etc...

21stcenturyLIVERPOOLsociety (http://www.virtual-planit.com/CHRIS/21CLS.jpg)

This is a link on purpose by the way, I've not used the img tags as its too big to fit inside the message pane.

Excellent! This is the list of people who have signed-up to support the formation of a society whose main aim is "to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool".

b4mmy
buggedboy
Bunnyman
dups45
LA Blue
liverpolitan
Martin S
UrbaniseD
Woody

There are additional people who are strong supporters of the Society, but I can't see if they have signed-up to this main aim - hopefully they can confirm their position on this:

DJ Billy
Doug Roberts (has booked us a room for 16 December)
Juxtapol
Kung Fuzi
Tony Sebo
T0M

That leaves other supporters of the Society concept where I can't tell if they are signed-up to having this main aim - people like L8 - they might, but reading their posts I'm not going to take liberties by saying they definately do. Plus everyone else, who hasn't yet signed-up! More signatures! Even if you cannot attend a meeting on 16 December, if you support such a Society, please put your name down.


Sign me up to that aim Poli! I've been away for the last week or so, hence my absence here, but I've been reading up on the progress with great interest. Looks like things are moving along, Poli you've certainly been working your socks off to get this off the ground, hats off to you, I just hope we don't loose any vital contributions in the mean time, but it seems like everyone who can be onboard is.

Glad to see there's a tangible meeting set up, slightly concerned back there that we were going to get into a chicken and egg situation where we couldn't have a meeting until we'd decided on the aims, but couldn't decide on the aims until we've had a meeting'. Looks like a good compromise has been reached on agreeing the fundamental underpinning aim, and letting the rest be reasoned out on the day. I will try to make it, but I generally don't know my schedule until the same week, so I'll have to be down as a provisional only for the time being. As for commitments, again it’s difficult to say right now, the one thing I can agree to is to but at least the same amount of time and effort into the society as I currently do to this forum, which will hopefully count for something, but I have to be cautious about over committing time at this stage or it could all horribly backfire further down the line.

Anyway, a few simple observations which I'm inclined to agree with from the previous few pages of posts.

* The society needs to have a number of simply stated, basic aims which are easy to communicate to the outside world, and easy to measure by a number of clearly defined goals. The more generic and wide-sweeping our aims become, the less focussed and therefore effective our cause is likely to be. The points made about John's campaign are excellent and demonstrate how a simple aim, consistently stated, however bloody minded it's delivery and blinkered it's approach, can have a significant impact. And that’s just one man, think what we could do if we galvanised our efforts as a group.

Of course the inherent risk in that approach is being pigeon-holed and having your opinions polarised as the 'anti-heritage' lobby, which as several people have pointed out, we're not. That's why I like the simple statement
"to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool". It sums up what we're about in a single breath, but allows some room for interpretation and 'outworking' in each individual case.

* Being a group of 'amateurs' is far from a disadvantage, and can actually be a positive element to the society. Planners and policy makers often fear amateurs and interest groups more than 'professionals' because the sole thing driving these groups is a passionate defence of their cause. There have been a string of cases where relatively small focus groups and amateur societies have affected huge changes without a professional in sight. Although that doesn't mean that the society shouldn't function and conduct itself in a professional way, just that we shouldn't worry about not having 'professional badges' to make our voice heard.

* I still strongly believe that initially, a simple approach will be the most effective. We're not local government, we don't need to produce endless white papers on regeneration and 100 page documents outlining our principles, because the truth is they'll never get read, and no one here has that much 'free time', and even if they did, it's not a wise use of that resource. We need to look for some quick wins, get a website up which gives us a public face and presence (great start b4mmy!), then start responding to proposals and making short, simple statements about potential future developments. Get quoted, often, as a positive voice for change in the city. Be the first people to respond to new developments with our support, rather than letting EH get their negative views out before us, making ours look reactive instead of proactive.

* Lastly, as L8 and Martin have pointed out, there needs to be a system in place which can deal with potential disagreements over new projects, as the Mann Island proposals demonstrated, even a group of people with extremely similar passions and opinions can suddenly find themselves deeply divided on a matter of personal preference. How will the society cope with these situations so that it still presents a united front and doesn't look like a divided house every time a new 'controversial proposal' comes along? Will it function like a democracy? Will it go with the majority view?

Anyway, I'm raising these points more for discussion at the meeting than here and now, and I agree that, for all the debate, we need to get moving, accepting that not everyone will agree with every nuance of the 'first draft' but that as long as we're signed up to the process (rather than the product) we'll represent a very committed and potentially powerful group.

Now, about that headed note paper.......

I've had this dummy site for a while. The buttons don't work, but it'll give you all an idea of how I see it working. ...

21stcenturyLIVERPOOLsociety (http://www.virtual-planit.com/CHRIS/21CLS.jpg)

This is a link on purpose by the way, I've not used the img tags as its too big to fit inside the message pane.

Can't believe I offered to do the website! That is excellent B4mmy, and far better than what I can do.

The only thing I would add is a seciton on the philosophy of the society? Or something that says that it is opposed to World Heritage Site becuase it limits and spoils real investment?

I've had this dummy site for a while. The buttons don't work, but it'll give you all an idea of how I see it working. Apart from the obvious sections like INTRODUCTION and CONTACT, I've included THE AREA, to define the geography that 21CLS covers. Then I think we should have sections about projects that we feel passionately about. Developers and architects will be falling over themselves to send us images if we are in public support of them... I've broken that down into Commercial/Residential/Transport and Public Realm, and if we don't have an image or it's a brand new scheme there will be room for it in the subsection of each... either 'key projects', 'future projects' and 'planning'. There is NEWS section that can cover our responses to current and future planning applications, and a BLOG that the society members can contribute to.. a little like a message board but without the abusability of a forum. Its just a start so try not be too negative, just trying to get things moving etc...

21stcenturyLIVERPOOLsociety (http://www.virtual-planit.com/CHRIS/21CLS.jpg)

This is a link on purpose by the way, I've not used the img tags as its too big to fit inside the message pane.

That's a fantastic start B4mmy! I really like it, simple, modern, stylish and appealing. I'd definately be interested in reading more on a site like that. How about including the tag line 'encouraging high quality architecture and the regeneration of Liverpool' somewhere to the right of the title?

It'd be great to get some supportive quotes from architects of high caliber like Pelli and Simpson at some point, and I like the idea of dividing the site up into categories with profiles on each new project. A lot can be learned in terms of content and structure from Tony's Downtown site as that was a great working example of how this sort of website can run succesfully (although this site is likely to be different in a number of respects).

Anyway, you've got a gift there our kid.. keep up the good work!

I've had this dummy site for a while. The buttons don't work, but it'll give you all an idea of how I see it working. Apart from the obvious sections like INTRODUCTION and CONTACT, I've included THE AREA, to define the geography that 21CLS covers. Then I think we should have sections about projects that we feel passionately about. Developers and architects will be falling over themselves to send us images if we are in public support of them... I've broken that down into Commercial/Residential/Transport and Public Realm, and if we don't have an image or it's a brand new scheme there will be room for it in the subsection of each... either 'key projects', 'future projects' and 'planning'. There is NEWS section that can cover our responses to current and future planning applications, and a BLOG that the society members can contribute to.. a little like a message board but without the abusability of a forum. Its just a start so try not be too negative, just trying to get things moving etc...

21stcenturyLIVERPOOLsociety (http://www.virtual-planit.com/CHRIS/21CLS.jpg)

This is a link on purpose by the way, I've not used the img tags as its too big to fit inside the message pane.

Great looking website b4mmy! I believe that Doug Roberts purchased the domain name Liverpool21stcenturysociety.com or similar. May be an idea to get in touch with him.

Great looking website b4mmy! I believe that Doug Roberts purchased the domain name Liverpool21stcenturysociety.com or similar. May be an idea to get in touch with him. ....yes, doug and I met at the last meet I could attend... I'm hoping that we can all talk this through on the 16th, but it shouldnt really be the focus of the meeting.... erm, I have to say though that its my co's xmas do on 15th and its looking increasingly likely I will either turn up on a stretcher, or I may have to appear on a video conference from casualty....

Excellent! This is the list of people who have signed-up to support the formation of a society whose main aim is "to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool".

b4mmy
buggedboy
Bunnyman
dups45
LA Blue
liverpolitan
Martin S
UrbaniseD
Woody

There are additional people who are strong supporters of the Society, but I can't see if they have signed-up to this main aim - hopefully they can confirm their position on this:

DJ Billy
Doug Roberts (has booked us a room for 16 December)
Juxtapol
Kung Fuzi
Tony Sebo
T0M

That leaves other supporters of the Society concept where I can't tell if they are signed-up to having this main aim - people like L8 - they might, but reading their posts I'm not going to take liberties by saying they definately do. Plus everyone else, who hasn't yet signed-up! More signatures! Even if you cannot attend a meeting on 16 December, if you support such a Society, please put your name down.

Poli,
Yes,i am supportive of this main aim.

Poli I'm happy with this and thanks for all the time and effort you've put in to get 21st CL this far.

Bammy, I've still got the domain name but trying to access it now only puts you on to Dailychanges.com.

Hey, it's sticky! Great work Gareth, looking forward to the new index too.

'fraid i work saturday afternoons....still at school you see! I realise that its the only time when most people can meet so i will do my best to rearrarange my hours.

Just out of interest, who else on here is about my age? I've just turned 18

Not many. I'm 24 and I think that's the younger end of it.

19

I would very much like to get involved.......:)

Poli - count me in. I don't get up to Liverpool too much any more so I probably wouldn't be able to make meetings, but I'd like to do what I can :)

Looks like we're gathering momentum with this, will make every effort to be at the meeting, but I think that we should all agree before the meeting happens that, whether we can all make it or not, this becomes the formal starting point for the society. There's only so long people can discuss these things before it has to either materialise or else evaporate. Let's get this bugger materialised!

Looking good everyone... hyope you don't bottle out L8... as I've always said, there is something profoundly good in that noggin somewhere!

Hang on i'm sure i was one of the first to suggest such a group many moons ago don't forget my name!

I also apologise for not following as much.

Hang on i'm sure i was one of the first to suggest such a group many moons ago don't forget my name!

I also apologise for not following as much.

no exclusion here - the strength of this should be that theres a core of likeminded people who can move it forward.

:cheers:

There is a test site up here folks, just to give you an idea of how the buttons work.... commercial and contact are the only ones that work! and theres no content yet, but I'm pulling it together as we speak

http://virtualplanit.mooo.com:8090/jobs/21stCenturyLIVERPOOLsociety/html/index.html

Sorry guys, i cant attend tommorow, unable to get my shift swapped in work, and i now have a maths lesson tommorow morning, how fun, looks like i cant get too bevvied tonight then. Good luck for the first meeting. Is anyone going for a walkabout afterwards, get some new pics of PDSA and beetham etc, hint hint!

There is a test site up here folks, just to give you an idea of how the buttons work.... commercial and contact are the only ones that work! and theres no content yet, but I'm pulling it together as we speak

http://virtualplanit.mooo.com:8090/jobs/21stCenturyLIVERPOOLsociety/html/index.html

Looking good B4mmy (and the website :naughty: ) - any chance of making the left hand menu a bit bigger as it's currently slightly difficult to make out what the categories are? But overall still lovin it! Keep at it...

Is there going to be a "Before and After" Section....not what the site looked like before and after, but what the proposal looked like before and after EH and CABE got their hands on it?

I think that would be a really good point, it would significantly highlight what they are ruining

smart website.....perfect! right layout, right style, very good. What have you used for that may i ask? what program i mean????/

another question, why is the introduction in spanish?

Latin lovin' Liverpool :cool:

smart website.....perfect! right layout, right style, very good. What have you used for that may i ask? what program i mean????/

another question, why is the introduction in spanish?

Scousey, it's a design convention to use Latin (not Spanish!) for filler text when creating page layouts.

The hope is that no one will mistake Latin text for meaningful copy.

When asked about the rejection of the latest 65-storey tower, a spokesman for the 21st Century Liverpool Society commented:

"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet."

Compared with which, even Wayne Colquhoun seems to make a weird kinda sense.

i beg your pardon i was just glancing over it......and im far to young to know about latin, it wasnt being taught when i was at school ; ) lol. seriously though what kind of program does it take to produce that kind of site? im currently setting up a webspace called scouseyuppie for my own work, a kinda portfolio online....ideas etc.

:)

i beg your pardon i was just glancing over it......and im far to young to know about latin, it wasnt being taught when i was at school ; ) lol. seriously though what kind of program does it take to produce that kind of site? im currently setting up a webspace called scouseyuppie for my own work, a kinda portfolio online....ideas etc.

:)

...one of my guys handcoded this, because thats the way he prefers to work... but if you are starting from scratch you'll need something like Dreamweaver. Pm me if you need any advice - so we can keep this thread relatively clean ;)

Bammy, brilliant work the site looks very professional well done!! perhaps with Scouseyuppies permission you could include links to his 2 video clips, just to give people a taster of what's to come, (just a suggestion)

yes, feel free to use the vids.....just mention who made them, you never know, might lead on to some cash! lol im gonna have a webspace too at some point, really like that 21c site though, very smart!

There is a test site up here folks, just to give you an idea of how the buttons work.... commercial and contact are the only ones that work! and theres no content yet, but I'm pulling it together as we speak

http://virtualplanit.mooo.com:8090/jobs/21stCenturyLIVERPOOLsociety/html/index.html


Nice one Chris... once again!

Enterprise/creeativecity/culture should bulk out many of the groups exploratories so should be factored into the design heeqadings asap?

Good luck with the meeting tomorrow folks... being positive about welcomeing and encouraging a vibrant, wealth creating, quality of life enhancing... changing metropolis sums the basic message up for me!

Forgive me but isn't the meeting supposed to be on the 16th? :?

Yes, Doug has booked us a room for Saturday 16th December, I think people got the Saturday muddled.

What time should we meet? I hoped I'd be coming up the day before, but I can't now, so I'll be travelling up on Saturday. Is a 3.00 - 4.30 meeting too late for other people? I'll just need to miss the beginning if people need to start earlier.

Is 90 minutes long enough, or should we allow for two hours, eg 3.00 - 5.00? Personally I think if we could allow 2 hours, it woud be more relaxed and we could always end early if we want to.

Here is an updated list of people who want to be part of a Society (21 Century Liverpool) whose main aim is to encourage high quality modern architecture in the regeneration of Liverpool. The Society is launching itself on 16 December.

If I've missed you out, it's just incompetence, please add yourself.

awayo
b4mmy
buggedboy
Craigie Mann
bunnyman
DJ Billy
Doug Roberts
dups 45
Gareth
LA Blue
Kung fuzi
liverpolitan
Martin S
scouseyuppie01
toadboy
T0M
Tony Sebo
UrbaniseD
Woody

There are other people who have contributed to the discussion in the past but haven't said if they are still interested in signig up to this, or have indicated they weren't, but maybe things have changed. Not a complete list, but includes these people:

Fitzroy (hasn't posted for ages, and I can't seem to send him a PM - anyone have any contact details for him?)
Dreamer
Pietari (Pie, surely you cannot ignore us!)
The Longford (claimed conflict of interest because he's an agent of EH or something evil sounding, but surely he can be a double agent?)
Gobshoite (came to an earlier meeting)
Damon
twiz
1878EFC

Please add me to the list of people interested and view my thoughts on the other thread.

Thanks.

What about John MK / City on the water. I think he would be really good on this, just so long as the docks and waterways are preserved. I think his point is very good, and true. We should retain the dock system to as much as we can, and excavate the docks that are just redundant. He would have some good ideas, anybody have contact details, or do you think he would not contribute?

How about non-Liverpool forumers who also want to contribute?

You've got to be kidding me. I have nothing personally against the fella and his views on maintaining current waterways I totally agree with. But for every person he influences in a good way there will be 3 or 4 times as many he will alienate with his bad, aggressive attitude.

Theres no way his views are representative of the majority at all. This is a guy who (regardless of the rights and wrongs of it being built) wants to see the Kings Dock Arena fail. The man does not have a concept of compromise whatsoever. Cannot see the other point of view at all.

If you disagree with him in anyway you are "stupid" or a "philistine".

Having said all that he should be welcomed as a member and to have his say if he wishes to join the campaign....just not in a position of power or as a spokesperson.

I personally don't think he should be banned from participating if he wants to, despite his shortcomings personality-wise. However, he never really expressed any interest in 21CL while he was posting here, so I don't think it's an issue anyhow.

How about non-Liverpool forumers who also want to contribute?

We've already got B4mmy. I don't see the problem if they have a genuine interest in Liverpool and the groups aims and concerns. Who knows, if successful we may end up with sister groups in other cities.

My slackness at declaring an interest thus far is entirely indicative of how unreliable I can be when committing time to projects other than those I already work on.

However, the society has my full support, and I think I will be able to come on the 16th.

For the record, I'm a copywriter in an ad agency by trade, and would be happy to turn my hand to writing work of all kinds. (Allowing for time pressures elsewhere of course - though I guess that applies to most of us).

We've already got B4mmy. I don't see the problem if they have a genuine interest in Liverpool and the groups aims and concerns. Who knows, if successful we may end up with sister groups in other cities.

That can only be a good thing.....there are many issues of importance to all cities and urban areas that are currently getting scant regard by those who are supposed to and being paid to lead.

We've already got B4mmy. I don't see the problem if they have a genuine interest in Liverpool and the groups aims and concerns. Who knows, if successful we may end up with sister groups in other cities.

...I've a foot in both cities Gareth! :)

With the mighty Bammy balls swinging over Wigan.

^^did i just write that? :ohno:

^^ I'm afraid so. :(

I feel a new avatar coming on...

http://www.hellblazer.com/media/big-balls.jpg

...I've a foot in both cities Gareth! :)

http://www.angelfire.com/blog/janetyen/Colossus.jpg

b4mmy - a God amongst men.

I personally am excited by the 'project' and would normally like to contribute but i have a very serious 'conflict of interest' and my allegiances already lie elsewhere.
Sorry chaps.

Granadalandsist fascist! :evil:

Granadalandsist fascist! :evil:

Not at all!
Its not a location thing its a century thing!
These are my lot:
http://www.c20society.org.uk/

Boo, old man!:ohno:

Boo, old man!:ohno:

:ancient: :yes:

Ok, this is your chance to input.

21st Century Liverpool Society (http://www.virtual-planit.com/21cls/index.html)

This is a working url for the society website. The two sections that work are COMMERCIAL and RESIDENTIAL and I've put in the projects that I think should go in. I need some text for the projects that are there, but no need to worry about that for a minute.

But there are built projects and others that I've missed out. So please let me know what they are by pm'ing me and telling me why its of imprtance to 21stCLS. I dont always look at this thread and if you make a small post I may not see it.

The INTRO section will be clarified after the meeting in January I guess, and the BLOG can be written by gleaning material from this thread.

I need guidance/project info for PUBLIC REALM and TRANSPORT.

:)

Looking fantastic B4mmy, some really excellent renders on there and photos too. Is there ever going to be any copyright issues? I assume the developers won't mind us showing their renders (as most will be in a positive light) and I guess as long as we use photos from within our own 'group' we'll be covered. It might be a good idea to draw up some sort of very basic copyright agreement that people on this forum can sign up to, giving you the right to use any photos posted on here within certain guidelines, without having to ask each person every time.

Sounds a bit extreme, but it's wise to have covered ones rear on these sorts of issues. The last thing you want is someone kicking up a fuss because you've used their picture an they're not happy... etc...etc. I'll sign anything me!

Lastly, of the sections you've already added detail to, have you thought about how to structure them, beyond a breif description and the renders/photos? I think it'd be a good idea to develop a single template that you can easily apply to each project. It could include sections like -


'What was there before (or is there now)'

'Original plans/renders'

'Planning report/objections/approval/rejection'

(then as will be the case with most projects)
'Revised renders',

'Approved/rejected on this date'

then if approved another section including lots of photos on
'Construction'

and finally
'The finished product'.

Different developments could then be linked to the blog and specific letters we've written and articles about development in the city and the state of the planning process etc. We could even ask various architects and developers to comments on the process, which would gives us a real USP.

Sounds like a lot of work, but it needn't be (for example for most projects all that information is already contained on this site). Different people could be assigned to research different projects, and we've got a wealth of renders and photos for most projects. I just think that giving each project a simple 'life-cycle' structure will add real value to the site, and provide a public service that doesn't really exist outside of these forums. The real weight of are argument often lies in the 'what could have beens' which Jo public often never sees. I believe that if people are given the opportunity to see the entire process unfold, not only will they see how frequently this city is being robbed of fine buildings, but how baised and narrow minded the plannign process is, and how consistently and brutishly they stongarm developers into reducing the height, scale and often beauty of their designs - then we won't even need to 'convince' people, are argument will speak for itself.

We want the site to be so well designed (which it already is) factually accurate and detailed that even council planners and developers begin to refer to it when researching past projects and investigating new ideas. Look what happened with the likes of Wikipedia, and how many people quote that on a daily basis!

My argument is this, create a website with nice pictures and renders, and people who are interested in pictures and renders will visit, create a website with our views on it, and people who are interested in our views will visit, but create a website that provides a facutal, functional tool and ongoing historic documentation - and all sorts of people will visit it - and by doing so will be exposed to the wonderful photography and, more subversively, to our veiws.

Anyway, enough rambling, I'm sure there'll be plenty of time for that on Saturday (although not if we adhear to Poli's strict schedule!).... but suffice to say I'm always happy to offer advice and input with regard to the website, and I think you've done a sterling job to date B4mmy! I've said it before and I'll say it again... keep up the good work!

Nice one Chris... I would say that the subjects make it look a little to much like solely an architecture and design group though!
:)

Nice one Chris... I would say that the subjects make it look a little to much like solely an architecture and design group though!:)

Tony this is a wonderful "starter for ten". Chris just great, I am sure this will broaden out and cover all aspects of the Societys aims.

aye... for example the issues about metropolitan governence and things like growing a media presence have been ongoing issues... of vital importance, which desperately need exploring for the city!

aye... for example the issues about metropolitan governence and things like growing a media presence have been ongoing issues... of vital importance, which desperately need exploring for the city!


thats good tony, i knew it needed to be in but didnt know what to call em... can you pm me a couple of section headings and i'll put them in... :)


===========

No report from yesterday's meeting?

Loads discussed and almost sorted. Went surprisingly well. Buggedboy is going to type a load of stuff up and post it either today or tomorrow I think. When discussing roles for members, I suggested my uncle Alan for the press officer part. He's the press officer for cheshire police. Spoke to him this morning and I think he's agreed to help out, as long as it doesn't conflict with his job. Also, my mate Adam could probably help out on the financial side, book-keeping etc. He's working in accounts at Lewis's, and I'll have a word with him tomorrow evening. He seems keen, but would like to know more about it...

Sorry i couldn't make it work and all. Will do evrything i can to make the next one.

Is it in Jan or Feb?

I do club promoting so i know poeple who can produce flyers, posters etc so if we ever need any of that let me know. I study business so if you want to shoot a role at me there is your info.

Nice one Craigie. The next 'official' gathering is the end of Jan as far as I'm aware. A few of us will probably meet before then though to discuss Cains ales and objectives etc. We'll keep y'all posted. :cheers:

Cool i'm in Amsterdam from the 29th of Jan so anytime before woud be great. Have we identified all possible roles within the org yet?

A few have been outlined for the members who could make it yesterday, but it's all open for people who want to contribute i think. Sebo has been pencilled in as Media Whore/Spokesperson. Expect much more to be posted about it here in the next few days. What kind of role were you looking at Craigie?

I'm not fussed but i don't mind taking up a significant role anything to help!

I do see it as something really worth working on as i said above my experience is in club promoting so i can help in that type of role a little i'd hope but i'm open to suggestion whatever is best.

A few have been outlined for the members who could make it yesterday, but it's all open for people who want to contribute i think. Sebo has been pencilled in as Media Whore/Spokesperson. Expect much more to be posted about it here in the next few days. What kind of role were you looking at Craigie?

I want to reiterate that I am happy to sign up for business planning and governance duty but will need a local tag team partner due to my remote location.

I have a friend lurking on the Wirral who may also help us. He used to be creative director of a media company in Pall Mall who have LFC and Rolls Royce as clients. He is freelance now but is involved in this outfit whose aims I think maybe well align with some of our own. He is very into (good) architecture.

http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/

Once we have some more 'meat on the bones' I can see if he is interested.

aye... for example the issues about metropolitan governence and things like growing a media presence have been ongoing issues... of vital importance, which desperately need exploring for the city!

Tony, it's just about how we structure these things, it's not "in" or "out" but "where". Although mayb you never agreed, the majority view on here was that we needed a bit of focus, that a Society with very loose aims around urbanism would not best achieve the things we seek to achieve. But a focus is just that - it's not the entirety. I wouldn't be interested in the Society at all if it was only concerned with modern architecture, I am, as you know, very interested in the wider agenda. "The regeneration of Liverpool", which is the second part of the primary aim, means all those things, but made specific to Liverpool. So I don't feel that those interests are compromised by the Society having a specific focus and a wider hinterland of issues.

I didn't reailse this chat was going on here, so I've stupidly put a long rambling report of the meeting up on the other thread - but as you will know, your offer to work on this has been taken up, and I've agreed to co-ordinate a group to produce draft purposes for the Society which includes you. I'll put a draft together soon, and start the ball rolling, and we can hopefully sort this issue in a way that keeps everyone smiling.

Good to meet you all chaps, and it did feel as though we made progress of sorts. Early days of course but everyone clearly wanted to make this thing happen. I'll try and stick around for ale next time but I really did have to rush off to deal with the kids on Saturday - Poli can vouch for this as he witnessed me in the Egg cafe trying to get children to put their coats on when all they wanted to do was attack each other. All in fun, of course.

Good to meet you all chaps, and it did feel as though we made progress of sorts. Early days of course but everyone clearly wanted to make this thing happen. I'll try and stick around for ale next time but I really did have to rush off to deal with the kids on Saturday - Poli can vouch for this as he witnessed me in the Egg cafe trying to get children to put their coats on when all they wanted to do was attack each other. All in fun, of course.

Good to meet you too Damon, hope your children don't suffer any long term psychological effects of the 'vegan party'... that Egg cafe is a weird place... (although the garlic bread is very nice!)

hope your children don't suffer any long term psychological effects of the 'vegan party'...

They were high on mung beans and liquorice root.

I've just noticed that a Mr Colquin, of the Liverpool Preservation Trust (I presume an amateur organisation, possibly with Mr Colquin as its only member) has been mentioned at least twice in an article in today's local press.

Why is it that this individual is regularly featuring in the press whilst after more than a year of muddling around this society isn't even commenting on applications, let alone calling the press and making representations.

The old phrase "not being able to arrange a piss up in a brewery" springs to mind.

I still haven't been informed of an email circuit. What exactly is going on?

I've just noticed that a Mr Colquin, of the Liverpool Preservation Trust (I presume an amateur organisation, possibly with Mr Colquin as its only member) has been mentioned at least twice in an article in today's local press.

Why is it that this individual is regularly featuring in the press whilst after more than a year of muddling around this society isn't even commenting on applications, let alone calling the press and making representations.

The old phrase "not being able to arrange a piss up in a brewery" springs to mind.

I still haven't been informed of an email circuit. What exactly is going on?

I've no idea about emails, UrbaniseD, but I'd probably be the last one to know (notice that a pre-meet was hastily arranged to discuss the agenda at a time when I had said I was on the train:uh: - so I was the one person who was guaranteed to be unable to attend, and I was the person who'd drafted the agenda and briefed the meeting chair!), so I'd not worry too much about knowing everything that might or might not be going on, I don't and I don't think it matters.

Buggedboy has drafted excellent notes (in word format) and over Christmas I will edit those into a post that summarises the meeting and sets out all the working groups and what they will be doing. I may get some time to start that this weekend but there is a nice little gap between christmas and new year when I will carve out a few hours to do this. So you'll have a clearer idea before New Years Eve - and can volunteer to join in any of the working groups, it's completely open access.

The working groups will communicate by email for working purposes, so any working group you join means will you get in on an email copy list. Obviously, at various stages, stuff will then be put up here by the working groups, but not the detail of their conversations. That is one of the lessons we learned in earlier attempts to get started - you can't do all the detailed work in an open-access forum, you need a small number of people to work on things quietly, but in a way that is open and doesn't imply secrecy or personal agendas at work. So it's going to be clear who is doing what, and anyone can offer to help - and all the draft materials will come back on here for everyone to see and comment on. A bit like the draft principal aim, and the draft agenda!:lol:

(notice that a pre-meet was hastily arranged to discuss the agenda at a time when I had said I was on the train:uh: - so I was the one person who was guaranteed to be unable to attend, and I was the person who'd drafted the agenda and briefed the meeting chair!)

Interesting as I was equally unaware of such a 'pre-meet', unless you're talking about me & Bunnyman having a pint in Dr D's beforehand.

Horrible thing, paranoia. :ohno:

now now, dont be so paranoid! I'm just pointing out to UrbaniseD that he's not missing out on anything, because people have all sorts of chats about the Society and you can't know everything that's going on. I've filled and emptied my PM box several times in the last few weeks talking to people about it, and they've not all been for the the "Stop Bunnyman Campaign".

...what's going on here... Luv is trying to pull everyone together... give him a chance boys.

...what's going on here... Luv is trying to pull everyone together... give him a chance boys.

Well maybe Bunny thought I had criticised him, but that is a misunderstanding. I've already said I wish we'd thought of the pre-meet drink idea earlier - it was a very good idea - the point I was making to UrbaniseD was that there is no secret "knowledge" out there that is worth having, just personal chats and opinions, including those I know about and those I don't. There's no conspiracy there, it's just life. If I said it clumsily, well hey ho, that's more of life.

I'll try to do the note tomorrow, I am supposed to go to the shops but I tried today and it was just appallingly stressful - some very very slow people of the sort you rarely see in town were deliberately blocking all shop doorways, the tops and bottoms of escalators, and any other choke points. So a couple of hours drafting the note from Buggedboy's excellent summary will be respite.

Interesting as I was equally unaware of such a 'pre-meet', unless you're talking about me & Bunnyman having a pint in Dr D's beforehand.

Bunnyman actually posted this:

"I can be in Duncans for 1:00 if anyone wants a pre-meeting discussion to iron out any queries there might be before the meeting. There's too much to fit into 90mins, so it might be best if we're all clear on what is going on beforehand?"

It was a bit close to the time of the meeting, which might explain the lack of much response, although you replied a little later: "
I could try and get in asap, if you're still up for it?"

Now, I've not chatted to either of you, on 16th or since, and haven't asked you or anyone else about how that "pre-meet" went or who attended. Why would I? I can only go on what is posted here. But I've said I thought it was a good idea to have a pre-meet and a pity we didn't think about it earlier, especially as there were new people coming who hadnt been to either meet-ups or 21CS meetings before. Also, I happened to agree with Bunny that it was a challenging agenda, and those who chatted to me in PM about that know I had some concerns, and Tony knows that because we discussed it. So there's nothing in what I've said that is critical of Bunnyman for having a good idea - he put it up on the website for everyone to read.

But I was explaining to UrbaniseD (who for the second time has wondered if there are emails flying about that he doesnt know about) my view that you shouldn't worry about trying to know everything that's going on - that I obviously coudn't go to that meeting because of my travel, and was one of the people who could explain the agenda and help change it - but didnt feel bothered as it doesn't really matter - the meeting would sort itself out, as it did.

Sorry Pol. I didn't read the bit about you being on the train. I would've sent you a text otherwise. :cheers:

No worries bunny - to keep things moving i've put the note up on the other thread, let me know if I got it right, if not I can edit it.

the thing is that if everyone is interested in a number of broad themes that need to be raised in and about the metropolis then a group should be formed... falling out over stuff does not even allow it to get to the ground, never mind off it... bit of sense?

the thing is that if everyone is interested in a number of broad themes that need to be raised in and about the metropolis then a group should be formed... falling out over stuff does not even allow it to get to the ground, never mind off it... bit of sense?

Tony, on the other thread I've outlined the six working groups - we set those up on the basis that smallish groups will be more focused and effective than large groups, at least while we are in this development stage. This is simply to set the Society up. There are now six people with responsibility for co-ordinating the development of the Society, and a similar number of others who are signed-up to work on those activities.

The actual agenda of the Society will be as broad and interesting as people choose to make it - nothing in the constitution will exclude relevant work around urbanism. Everyone will hopefully have an interest in most aspects of the Society, and get involved, but we have formed working groups just to get the spade-work done. I'll be in touch about the policy working group, which you are a part of, after Christmas.

merry christmas all...........

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1071719/684.jpg

[QUOTE=liverpolitan;11029871]Tony, on the other thread I've outlined the six working groups - we set those up on the basis that smallish groups will be more focused and effective than large groups, at least while we are in this development stage. This is simply to set the Society up. There are now six people with responsibility for co-ordinating the development of the Society, and a similar number of others who are signed-up to work on those activities.

The actual agenda of the Society will be as broad and interesting as people choose to make it - nothing in the constitution will exclude relevant work around urbanism. Everyone will hopefully have an interest in most aspects of the Society, and get involved, but we have formed working groups just to get the spade-work done. I'll be in touch about the policy working group, which you are a part of, after Christmas.[/QUOTE[/I]

agree poli, that is why I was cautioning about getting stuck on issues that are simply minutae and leading to arguments..... the most important thing is to simply get it set up... do not do so removes all debate and all potential

happy new year folks!

http://www.virtual-planit.com/CHRIS/pigs.jpg

;)

very good b4mmy, cant stop laughing at that!

....thought that might get your attention. Now when are you going to contact me about this 21cls business ;)

When you get a mans car. Tart.

When you get a mans car. Tart.

You said you liked it before, you slag :)

Here's my other one, does that make you feel a bit better? :)

http://www.saabcentral.com/phpgallery/albums/Allsorts/noddy.jpg

I prefer the Mini. :D

me too.

Anyway, since my coordinator isn't doing any coordinating other than chucking us fantasy fotoshops... maybe you can enlighten me matey... whats happening with 21cls?

Don't know. Spoke to Sebo and Gareth ages ago., but apart from that I'm not sure. Should be meeting towards end of Jan though..

I was hoping to have made some contributions long before then... I think I'll conact Tony and Gareth as well and see what they know.... cheers! :)

Bammy, you are signed up for the Communications and Website group, which Scouseyuppie is co-ordinating. The idea is that you PM him, and he will then establish email contact, and you can then collectively work up the draft plan for communications and the website. There is a month to go, and I haven't contacted people for the group I am co-ordinating yet, and as far as I know others haven't except Damon, so I'd give it a bit of time - it is a holiday, people are busy etc.

Please read the post on the other thread about the other groups - and contact the relevant co-ordinator if you want to join in.

merry christmas all...........

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1071719/684.jpg

That is absolutely brilliant mate, best thing I've seen on SSC for a while!!! Love what you've done on the left hand side, and well done on including all the proposed (real) schemes as well.

I think this rendering of yours should be used in the society marketing- if people see what the city could be they will be signing up in their droves!

Well done lad. :cheers:

Ps. Is it ok if I circle this round to a few friends? I'll mention Scouseyuippie right? Or give a link to this thread?

http://skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=11067405&postcount=120

link for Bammy - it's got the details - no reason I can think of why you cant start putting ideas together while waiting for yuppie, he is co-ordinating but I am sure your early thoughts would be much appreciated by that group.

Our next meeting is to be arranged for the end of January. I am doing an ideas paper covering Membership and Events. That's my understanding at least.

Okay, we thought about potentially putting everything up at same time, but probably that would be far too much, so I think the Working Groups will report separately over the coming days. I know some are more advanced than others, but everything we need to set ourselves up is now well in hand, and things we don't complete before the next meeting can always be done later.

Working Group B has now competed its work. It consisted of Tony Sebo, Tom, Martin, Gareth, LA Blue and Scouseyuppie, and was co-ordinated by me. Amongst other things, this group was responsible for drafting the fuller purposes of the Society, and develop our policy position. (Buggedboy and Gareth are drawing on this for the constitution).

We revisited the overall aims of the Society, in light of the discussion at the last meeting. We decided we needed to rebalance these, as there was too much empahsis on architecture and not enough on the other ingredients of urban life and development. Hopefully we now have a better balance that means everyone involved can see their interests reflected.

The group will present this paper to the next meeting, for discussion and then adoption. The paper can be developed further before the meeting, but we don't want to get into needless "drafting" work on all this - the most important thing will be to ensure that the Society reflects what people want it to reflect.

We have drawn on all the previous threads to identify possible work the Society could do next year - but these are just ideas at this stage, it will be for the Society and its members to decide priorities and agree what to do in future meetings. They are included to show how the thing could work, and to capture all the previous contributions of ideas that have been made. It would be very useful if people could look at the "possible activities" under each theme, and see if there are any they are interested in, any they don't think we should do, or any that are completely missing.

---

21CL – Draft Statement of Policy

This statement outlines the aims, vision, approach and policy priorities of 21CL. It will inform our activities and will be kept under review.

Aims of 21CL

21CL aims to improve policy, practice and planning in the regeneration of Liverpool and its wider region.

Our vision

Our vision for Liverpool is of a more prosperous city with greater autonomy to determine its future. Liverpool must play a bigger role for its urban region, for the country, and internationally. We cherish our heritage, including a tradition of creating landmarks and prosperity to benefit future generations. Ours is a creative, growing and modern city that must continue to encourage development, enterprise and innovation. Our aspirations must never be parochial or backward looking: Liverpool is, if nothing else, an international city in spirit.

Our way of working

We seek to achieve our aims by acting as a forum for dialogue, research, learning and campaigning around relevant issues in architecture, planning, urbanism, media, governance and regeneration.

Our ethos is constructive and proactive. We will stimulate new thinking, offer support and encouragement, and seek a “critical friend” relationship with relevant organisations. We will also challenge and offer alternatives where we believe policies or decisions are not compatible with our vision for Liverpool.

Our main themes

There are many aspects of policy that are relevant to achieving our vision, and we have identified six themes in which we intend to make a constructive contribution during the next year. These themes are:

a) a re-urbanised city, with a high quality of urban life and better densities in inner areas of the city;

b) a reconnected city with better transport and whose airport serves a gateway role to the wider region;

c) a well-represented city that can broadcast to itself and the outside world rather than being reported upon solely from outside;

d) a redefined city that works closely with its wider urban region and casts artificial boundaries away where they don’t work for today's needs;

e) a regenerated city whose economy grows not just in low-value sectors but in the highest value sectors including broadcasting; and

f) a historic and bold city that preserves its architectural treasures whilst laying down new landmarks and ensuring future growth and prosperity.

We outline some policy issues under each of these themes, together with potential activities we could undertake. The potential activities we list are to stimulate discussion, and it will be for 21CL to decide its activities once it is formed. Although some of the potential activities are to campaign for or against things, we envisage that the main thrust of activity will be positive - - generating good ideas and trying to change hearts and minds on these issues.

Theme A: A re-urbanised city

The population of Liverpool and its region has stabilised after decades of decline. However, population densities in parts of Liverpool have fallen so low that basic urban facilities like shops and pubs are scarcely viable. Low-density and suburban-style developments are right for many places but are generally not right for many inner areas. We will support planning policy that increases densities in inner areas, and that does so in a contemporary, holistic and sustainable manner. Improved densities and more socially mixed communities are key to generating a positive urban dynamic, better quality of life, and attracting new people and jobs to our city.

Potential work on this theme may include:


Engaging with planners and others on the issues around re-urbanisation, to support improved densities and social mix in the inner areas of the city.

Stimulating public debate on these issues, drawing on evidence of what works in other cities.

Scrutinising planning strategies and proposals and commenting as appropriate,

Identifying new opportunities for re-urbanisation

?????

????


Theme B: A reconnected city

Improved connections are vital to the regeneration of Liverpool and for it to play a more fitting role for its wider region and the nation. The further development of Liverpool Airport into a gateway serving a wide catchment area should be accelerated and assisted to the fullest extent by public agencies. Public transport links to the airport, and to and around the city centre, need to be improved. Lime Street station requires a major investment as a Gateway over and above the relatively minor cosmetic improvements currently proposed. The trams should be reconsidered and given a fair chance, and the Government held to its promise to fund alternatives if the trams do not proceed.

Potential work on this theme could include:


Campaigning for accelerated development of LJLA and for better public transport connections to it. This may include responses to the implementation of the Aviation White Paper and Eddington Review.

Seeking dialogue with Network Rail, Liverpool Vision and others concerning currently inadequate proposals to improve Lime Street station as a gateway to the region.

????

????


Theme C: A well-represented city

The image and profile of Liverpool is high and is generally positive, although ironically this profile is probably higher outside Britain. Liverpool is a cultural powerhouse with an immense potential contribution to national cultural and social life. However, non-locally based British media often use out-of-date and inappropriate stereotyping and accentuate the negative. A lack of locally based media has hindered regional affiliation and identity within the Liverpool city region. Liverpool has not enjoyed the coverage or the share of media jobs that its residents deserve. It is now the only large British city without a significant media presence, and its economy is suffering from this exclusion. We believe that the capacity of local people to generate wealth in the media and digital sectors needs to be released and develolped. The BBC in particular has a responsibility to correct a historic lack of investment and attention to Liverpool.

Potential work on this theme may include:


Encouraging more positive and balanced coverage of Liverpool, perhaps by an annual award to the media organisation that most fairly portrays the City and its region to the outside world.

Analysis of alternatives to “northwesternism” in broadcasting, and promoting these constructively.

Campaigning for a fair share of media jobs, including some of the BBC “Out of London” jobs which are currently designated solely for Salford.

Scrutinising media bias that perpetrates unfair stereotypes or discrimination against Liverpool and its region, and challenging those journalists or organisations who behave in this way.

???

???


Theme D: A Redefined city

City Regions are an engine of economic growth and are increasingly seen as providing an alternative to outdated concepts of regions such as the “North West”. The former Merseyside County Council boundaries were too tight, and separated places such as Ellesmere Port, Skelmersdale and Runcorn from their urban region. But even within the small former “County” area, Liverpool City Council has been slow to forge meaningful and fruitful relationships with other authorities. Additionally, some other local authorities in our urban region have lacked proactivity in developing links with neighbours. The City of Culture events are an opportunity to help redefine Liverpool and its role in the wider region of some two million people, to reconnect people and places to the city.

Regardless of local and regional governance arrangements, Liverpool needs to build partnerships with its wider urban region in North East Wales and with places such as Wigan and Warrington where there are overlaps with Manchester City Region. As the city recovers its economy and role, old relationships with such places will revive and this needs to be fostered.

Possible work on this theme includes:


Stimulating debate about how to encourage stronger city regional identity for Greater Liverpool / Liverpool Bay

Encouraging the local authorities of the area to work more closely together in developing a city regional identity and plans, and to create a more meaningful common area beyond the inadequate boundaries inherited from previous local government structures.

Campaigning to replace “regional” with city-regional / urban regional structures and arrangements wherever practicable.

???

???



Theme E: A regenerated city

There has been impressive economic growth in recent years, for example in the resurgence of Liverpool city centre, tourism, and of the airport. The economy of the wider city region has also developed, for example in Aerospace at BAe at Broughton, life sciences and advanced chemicals, financial services in Chester, and in the booming LJLA – Warrington economic corridor.

However, the city-regional economy remains weaker than others. The absence of a broadcast sector is one cause, together with the virtual absence of a regional governance / professional services sector due to “northwesternism”. Growth at the airport has in the past been artificially inhibited by long-term official policy to favour Manchester Airport as the only hub for the wider region - this has resulted in lost economic growth and fewer jobs for Liverpool and its region.

Liverpool's major players have not always been as business friendly as they need to be, and the infrastructure for attracting inward investment is widely recognised as insufficient to the task. While increased and good quality inward investment is vital, so to is work to encourage greater entrepreneurship by people and businesses already here.

Possible work on this theme includes:


Analysing the economic implications of not supporting accelerated growth at LJLA during the coming years, and responding robustly to any institutional challenges (eg Eddington) to Liverpool’s continued growth.

Seeking of public agencies a better quality evidence base about the Liverpool city regional economy, for example to understand how the under-researched economic corridor from Speke – Warrington can best be nurtured for the benefit of the wider city region.

Campaigning for a fair share of broadcasting jobs and the many opportunities for greater enterprise that arise from their presence.


Theme F: A historic and bold city

A major asset of Liverpool is its historic legacy, including its cultural contributions, world-famous buildings and districts of architectural importance. We are pro-conservation and believe new uses must urgently be found to save more of Liverpool’s historic buildings, particularly those that are distinctive to its port and commercial history.

However, the setting of notable buildings is not enhanced by surrounding them with banal or second-rate buildings. For example, we believe that the key agencies are mistaken in believing that the setting of the Pier Head group of buildings is improved by timid development, indeed such developments detract from rather than help conserve the legacy.

Tall buildings are not right everywhere – but they can play an important role in laying down new landmarks, and strengthening the visual context for old landmarks. Liverpool City Council and its advisors in English Heritage and CABE have not always demonstrated a strong understanding of the impact of tall buildings on the skyline and in rejuvenating the economy.

Potential work on this theme includes


Raising awareness and stimulating debate about planning policy in Liverpool and its wider region

Seeking constructive dialogue with Councils, planners, developers, English Heritage and CABE on this theme.

Challenging public agencies to justify the economic and aesthetic impact of rejecting developments, or changing them

Analysing the views that are protected through World Heritage Status.

???

???

Nice one Pol. I'll have a look through. :)

Incidentally, buggedboy and Gareth are drafting the constitution, and that requires that we set out our "purposes", that is what the Society is for and what it may do. For the section on "purposes" they are using these two clauses adapted from the above policy statement on our aims and approach:

"1. To improve policy, planning and practice in the regeneration of Liverpool and its wider region.

2. To act as a forum for discussion, debate, research, learning and campaigning around relevant issues in architecture, planning, urbanism, media, governance and regeneration".

The rest of the statement isn't for the constitution - the plan is that it should be adopted as a policy statement but that it can also be changed as views / opinions evolve.

I've had a read through Poli and I think at this point, you and the other people who've worked on the document should be pleased with what you've achieved. As a launch pad for all the work to come, this does a great job of drawing out a lot of salient points and offering ideas for research and campaigns.

I think the tension between a narrow architectural focus and a wider city region focus is tricky to handle, but this document bodes well. We are likely to be just a small group of people for quite a while - possibly forever - and we must have it within ourselves to impose limits on our remit because otherwise, we'll simply spread ourselves too thinly. However, as we're only just setting out on this project, we need to have those broader issues covered so we can tackle them as and when we're able. The current boom in building proposals and construction will not last forever - a society focused simply on giving hurrahs to each new tall building will eventually run out of stuff to talk about as the current cycle reaches its end.

At this stage, an attempt at achieving clarity is essential so that we all know what we're discussing, and this document seems clear and well thought through. There are many points to talk about at the next meeting and beyond, but having read this, I'm looking forward to getting my teeth into it.

Anyone else?

the attempt to place architecture within the wider context of urban development, wealth creation and growth is absolutely essential... the narrow foeld of architecture is saturated with groups of various sorts in the city... the whole issue of tall buildings for example must be argued beyond the world of aesthetics or the city will lose out constantly to the naysayers.

If you can illuminate the real damage to money and population you can begin to really counter the arguments currently used.

Remember buildings, all buildings are only the manifestation of what is taking place in the city that needs an 'envelope'.. we want as much as possible?

...If you can illuminate the real damage to money and population you can begin to really counter the arguments currently used.

I agree. The emergence of tall buildings and large scale development is symptomatic of a thriving economy... it appears that someone somewhere is oblivious to Liverpool's growing economy, or doesn't really give a rats arse about it.

or trying to stop it.......has any other english provincial city experienced such a rapid renaissance? could it be the powers that be in this country are worried or threatened by the liverpool's potential for some reason? :nuts:

...could it be the powers that be in this country are worried or threatened by the liverpool's potential for some reason?

...not in my opinion. I think some 'people' might think in terms of Liverpool's historically militant past, but that is the failing of those people. I have come across other people who think Liverpool 'are a funny lot'... in terms of being difficult to strike an accord with. Obviously a massive generalisation which will no doubt further isolate those who hear it first hand... I don't know. I myself, and only 5 or 6 years ago had little passion for Liverpool (oops honesty isn't always the best policy) but those feelings were stereotyped. Sometimes when it is openly discussed it seems as though Liverpool is in a different country, which is possibly down to the city's massive sense of independence - and an independence that has been thrust upon it I might add... which possibly to 'some' people is a bit of a paradox, because 'everybody needs somebody'.... maybe.


Note: tried writing that without the 'parenthesis' but it sounded wrong... not sure if it still does... anyway... I await your flames.

I hate adding watermarks to images I post on the web, as I think it ruins the pic. (A VERY BIG) However, I'm starting to think about it. There's a little tosspot on another forum who calls himself Scouseyuppie and for the past 4 years he's been using and editing my photos despite my protests. No credit is ever given. He's recently nicked another one of mine for a Liverpool youtube video. I've attempted to add my comments about it on Youtube, but I think he's blocked me. I know he will be attending certain meetings in Liverpool that are being organised on this other forum and I will be gategrashing one of them in the near future and shoving an invoice up his arse.

Paul D, Kev, Bunnyman and others on Yo, you know who I mean. I'd appreciate it if you could forward my comments to this other forum.

Thanks

Scouserdave

Posted on Yoliverpool. Please take note.

Posted on Yoliverpool. Please take note.

Dave's still on good form then :)

yeah by the looks of it :) and he SHOULD add watermarks... that way when someone does commercial infringement you can hammer them for slicing your image and removing the watermark.

right then, Im not obviously going respond well to threats from ScouserDave.

This will be recorded as a threat.

I have been over this time and time again with Dave and the videos (with the exception of the latest which i agree was my error) give credit to those whose pics I have used.

If Scouserdave wants to 'bully' and bad mouth people around this or any forum, he is happy too. And he is also welcome to gatecrash the meetings, he seems to want to create as much damage as he can.

I havent removed any watermarks from anyones pictures.

What I do I do not recieve profit for

And if the meetings are to be a excuse for people like scouserdave to be confrontational over a photograph, then Im sorry, im withdrawing from the 21C effort. It aint worth the hastle of having someone with nothing better to do waving an 'invoice' in my face because he is bored.

Again, no 'toss pot' offensive digs, or pictures posted to 'out' people in bad taste are needed from myself.

Oh and by the way, no Scouserdave, you havent been blocked.

Individual politics aside, this does raise an important point, not just here but for everything 21CL does, we need a solid code of practice for using photos for any purposes. This is to protect both the people's who's photo's are being used, and the people using the photos.

This issue has raised it's ugly head before, and will continue to do so unless we get these practices in place. Any suggestions?

It's only good manners to ask people if you can use their images, and then to stick an acknowledgment saying where it came from etc... As far as the 21cls is concerned we should credit all the images, likeJames has done on Skyscraper News crediting every image where it appears... which is the right thing to do. Not many people (including Dave I dare say) will object to the use of the images if they are properly and respectfully credited, its good publicity. If Sy was making money out of using these images there is no doubt that a public rap would fall well short of the legal implications. I say, just show the proper respect and put the credits in... for what its worth Sy you've used my stuff without crediting me as well, and its only going to be a problem when someone assumes that you generated the images yourself, which is an easy mistake to make... as a hobbyist with no audience you can get away with doing anything you like but the more public your work becomes the more careful you'll have to be. It'll happen to you one day!

yes precisely bammy. you need to have a policy and stick to it unless you want to be sued out of existence.

i should add, we never actually use photos of someone without permission. we use cgi images without permission because we dont have to ask but we are required to credit those too and we do... we are covered by fair dealing exemptions in british copyright law. fair dealing does not extend to actual photographs but takes into account every other type of image. as a result you MUST ask permission for a photograph regardless of the use, commercial or not, even if its for news reporting, commentary or criticism. this is why photos on the site are pretty much exclusively taken by site editors, it saves us having that potential legal headache.

sometimes i get contacted by a compnay who says "oh you credited our image to the developer can you change that" and then i go "but the developer said the credit belongs to them". such fun watching companies argue over who owns what. ugh.

Good points B4mmy, the only potential problem which could arise however (which I see Gothic has just addressed) is if you use someone's picture, and credit them, but don't have their permission and they kick up a fuss. I think that when it comes to 21CL, we need to ensure we're water-tight when it comes to these details. Someone could object to their photo being used (even if it is credited) if for example the photo is being used to make a political statement which they don't agree with.

I know it's unlikely, but having had people like John MK on the forum it's not impossible.

Also, how do you credit people on a video, apart from at the end?

Personally I've openly said that I'm happy for any of my pictures to be used that I post on here, provided that a) no one implies (either by intent or ommision) that they took the photo and b) that credit is given where appropriate - so for example if someone lists a number of photos and credits most photos but doesn't credit mine I'd be a bit miffed, but if it's being used as part of a rolling slide show then I wouldn't be bothered.

Anyway, for the time being sticking to photos of people who have expressed their permission for their pictures to be used, and steering away from people who've kicked up a fuss now or previously seems like a prudent course of action.

yes precisely bammy. you need to have a policy and stick to it unless you want to be sued out of existence.

i should add, we never actually use photos of someone without permission. we use cgi images without permission because we dont have to ask... we are covered by fair dealing exemptions in british copyright law. fair dealing does not extend to actual photographs. as a result you MUST ask permission for a photograph regardless of the use, commercial or not, even if its for news reporting, commentary or criticism. this is why photos on the site are pretty much exclusively taken by site editors, it saves us having that potential legal headache.

sometimes i get contacted by a compnay who says "oh you credited our image to the developer can you change that" and then i go "but the developer said the credit belongs to them". such fun watching companies argue over who owns what. ugh.

To avoid lenghty processes of asking permission for every photo you use, could you not just have a generic disclaimer, which people can sign up to which allows other people to use photos posted on this site, within certain basic perameters? That way if someone posts a lot of photos, and has signed the disclaimer you wouldn't have to ask their permission each time you wanted to use a specific picture?

the point i was trying to make is you cannot publish a photograph for ANY reason at all without asking permission of the rights holder first unless the copyright on the image has lapsed.
you can publish computer generated images or artwork without asking permission, you must simply have a good reason (fair dealing) and credit the author.
the photographer could not only complain but also sue you for damages. you need to reduce your liability here to a minimum by basically avoiding this issue. the 21st c has enough people invovled for you guys to use pictures youve taken yourselves without worrying about this.
even then, make sure you have credited each other, not least because companies in liverpool might want to buy the pics!
you could have a disclaimer assuming someone posts the photograph, places like flickr or the bbc online have similar things but this would involve the person reading the agreement when they first signed up. a disclaimer would not apply to anything where there was not a prior agreement between the parties, ie you finding a photo online and just using it.
furthermore something on this site wouldnt work, people posted images before the disclaimer existed. you cannot apply anything legally in a retrospective manner like that. id avoid a disclaimer fullstop unless you want a massive legal headache in drafting it, if it is improperly written again you expose yourself to liabilities about this if someone then says it doesnt constitute a contract or the terms are unfair.
i would simply appeal to people to donate photographs you can use. rely on the specific good will of people rather than something assumed or implied.

Thanks for the clarifcation Gothic.

Out of interest have you ever had companies approach SSC asking to buy photos? If you think you've got some good shots is it ever worth directly approaching a company with them?

yes. i have and i always direct them to the specific forumer. not only this but i get plenty of inquiries about the owners of renderings of unbuilt buildings which might be why the viz companies like skyscrapernews. we show off their work and pass on customers to them!

to give yuo a better example, skyscrapernews.com... we are currently suing no less than six companies that have been stupid enough to put our photographs on their websites and use them to sell things such as holidays. in all cases the companies not only used our pics without permission but sliced the watermarks off the bottom of the images. i aim for £375 per infringement plus interest and recovery costs.

ive sold three photos in the last week to companies, and andrew has sold another one too (and he's also had one of his pics ripped off)... its a nice little earner. i also let educational and charity publications use images with little or no fees paid at all - i basically ask for a token fee of say £10 and if its completely non commercial i normally let people use the work for nothing hence youll see personal websites all over the place with pictures from skyscrapernews with our explicit backing.

that said, go to google images and type in something like canary wharf or london skyline and youll see the top results literally peppered with my pics so its understandable. i've never approached a company and frankly i dont need to as if google images goes by i seem to be the most prolific photographer when it comes to shots of london.

i dont care one iota if people use them for non commercial purposes or fair dealing applies, i do mind when people try and make money out of it. we didnt take pics of that project to sell your services as a contractor, we took pics of it because we wanted to chart the construction of that building. if you try and profit from our work and insultingly remove our watermarks we WILL sue you. we do not negotiate over fees as these have already been established in past actions by the courts, and if you lose the civil case we will then report you to the police who will begin a criminal investigation (commercial copyright infringement is a criminal offence). said company's solicitor will advise them every time to backdown and pay up, which managing director fancies fighting us and ending up with a police caution at the very least :)

from our contract -
# All work supplied remains the intellectual property of their original creator / creators unless ownership is specifically transferred during the process of the commission to the client.
# At all times a credit must be provided at some point on the media publication by the client as to the origin or source of the work commissioned.
# The use of such work will informed upon during the commission process and the client will bound to adhere to the agreed usage alone.
# At all times the client is bound by the 1988 Copyright Designs and Patents Act and the Berne Copyright Convention.
# Should the client wish to use work provided for further unlicensed usage the client is legally required to request additional permission.
# Failure to secure new licenses before work is used is a breach of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act and the Berne Copyright Convention. We pursue copyright infringement to the full extent of the law.

its a nice little earner. that said, go to google images and type in something like canary wharf or london skyline and youll see the top results literally peppered with my pics so its understandable.

... and then they named the hospital after me. Which was nice.

I acknowledge that, and you are making good points. To be perfectly honest if someone uses one or two pictures ive taken, i really dont care, the more the merrier. Me and scouserdave obviously think differently on this.

I do respect his wishes to be asked, however, we have discussed this in the past, despite his antics and his attempts to bully or embaress me into some kind of submission, all of which in bad taste.

I did explain that despite this i understood his point and that i would leave a credit. Which, except for the last which was, i admit my error, on the videos i have left a credit not only to scouserdave but several other people with regards the pics.

Scouserdave has a little bit of a vendetta. He does have a grudge regarding this forum (you only have to read the Yo-liverpool forum to see this) and he is a generally difficult guy.

I do apologise if i have used images without credit. It is for the general promotion of Liverpool and the 21C society that i do these vids, not to offend or simply steel pics.

But again, if scouserdave wants to start being confrontational at meetings then thats up to him.

But again, if scouserdave wants to start being confrontational at meetings then thats up to him.
...ok, but you do know he's 6' 5' and an ex paratrooper....?

scouserdave's opinions on this and yours are irrelevant. what is relevant is the law. legal issues are not a question of right or wrong, they are a question of what is legal and what is unlawful.

urbanise... only 3 pics on the first page of the search results for london skyline by me, all on different sites :) we are though the biggest read architecture publication in the whole of the uk these days (this is why youll find interviews with me in the new york times). some days we actually get more readers than ssc does.

i find that it helps no end in covering yuor arse, as a result ive never had a problem from anyone except when we had a banner ad from google that some clever sod worded to look like theyd produced the images it was under, it wasnt our problem but we acted immediately in any case. we just changed the layout a tiny bit to make it doubley clear they hadnt.

Seriously yuppster, James is right in that there are enough of us to take our own photos that reliance on third parties shouldn't be such an issue. I haven't been taking many photos recently but I've been known to and my policy is that anyone can use them as long as they're not making a financial gain. Scousedave is different as you found out a couple of years back, in that he expects to be asked regardless. Since then, you've been promoted to nemesis status which means he hates you only marginally less than Sloyne. So to make the same mistake again and use one of his photos was a bit daft.

Seriously, cover yourself in future. Ensure that you have consent for all of the photos you use. If you're in need of a particular snapshot, ask on here to see if anyone has one or will take one for you. 21CL doesn't need any legal wrangles before it's even took off.

The videos are great by the way. Keep up the good work.

scouserdave's opinions on this and yours are irrelevant. what is relevant is the law.

urbanise... only 3 pics on the first page of the search results for london skyline by me, all on different sites :) we are though the biggest read architecture publication in the whole of the uk these days.

...well he's still 6' 5" and an ex-paratrooper.

...well he's still 6' 5" and an ex-paratrooper.

And very, very angry.

The videos are great by the way. Keep up the good work.


Here here! Anyone with any sense can see that you didn't do this maliciously, and that the greater aim is supposed to be the one we're all here to promote, but as Gareth said, cover yourself, for yours and 21CL's sake. :cheers:

yes. you cant go along relying on the goodwill of people because eventually you will encounter a vexatious arsehole who hates your guts and will use anything he can to try and beat you, i dont believe dave would do this but once you start to become politically active someone will. dont give someone a stick and they cant hit you.

Out of interest Goth, why are all links to liverpool pictorial down? :? Dave has said he's got no problem with the folks here posting his pics up.

links where? on here? i had no idea he gave explicit permission. if you can point me to somewhere where he says that its ok for his pics to be used on ssc ill remove it. from what i remember he was threatening to sue jan at one point so thats why we blocked liverpoolpictorial though my mind might be remembering it a bit wrong. ive got nothing against the guy personally and would happily have him post on here if he could be less agressive but unfortunately when you start threatening people like he was, if we didnt do anything then it drags us into the mess.

The plot thickens.... duh duh duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I don't think this is really a 21CL matter, (aside from whether or not people attend meetings) - it's a general issue about using pics. Dave is right, he's entitled to acknowledgement, and yuppie is also right - he does appropriately acknowledge usually but forgot to this time, and has apologised for that oversight. I'm an amatuer who takes shit pics with an automatic, so I'm flattered if anyone uses one of my pics - but someone with a more serious or professional interest in photography will obviously need to protect their rights.

I imagine the web aministrator for 21CL will be responsible for all content on the 21CL website and setting any rules or protocols about protecting copyright or other intellectual rights. I imagine he or she will simply remove material that appears to breach copyright or its rules?

It will be worth setting up some sort of system on here for pics then, to stop this happening. Lets try and use his silly antics to our benefit to stop this happening then? On a lighter note, any physical confrontation, ex-paratrooper or not, and I have my own protection, thats all im gonna say :lol: but, to be honest, it will be more likely a case of the police becoming involved, scouserdave is threatening a physical or verbal confrontation over a picture. Its as simple as that, im not gonna stand for any of that :lol:

Its a f**cking photo, you would think id murdered a relative or something.

I move back to Liverpool on the 9th of Feb for six months, so can start getting more of my own pics again. This is a game for scouserdave, he seems to only surface when there is the opportunity from a challenge or confrontation which is a shame.

..yeah and he's a copper as well!

and I have my own protection, thats all im gonna say :lol:

You have mace?:nuts:

No no, seven uncles, all ex champion boxers.......that should keep him at bay lol :lol:

http://onfinite.com/libraries/1093217/64f.jpg

You didn't actually ask him though. You really should ask regardless of it being not for profit. Like I said, it'll keep 21CL out of any potential legal wrangles.

As there are now a lot of us on here that take photos is it worth having a list, either in its own thread or as part of another appropriate thread (e.g. development summary) that lists forum members and their permission requirements? That way if anyone wants to use a photo, either for 21st C Liverpool material or their own use, there'll be a quick and easy reference as to who wants to be asked for permission, who doesn't need to be asked but would like a credit, who isn't bothered either way etc.

If I'm honest I would prefer to know if any of my stuff is being used somewhere else after I have posted it, or if it has come from my site, or even off my client's sites.... not least because my clients have paid me for the work, and I don't pass the copyright over.... and its just good manners. I think that would go for most people.

thats the thing though with scouserdave, he was angry because i didnt ask OR leave a credit, the last time he got angry and posted images of me on here.

So, for the sake of speed and convenience, i just left a credit.

Maybe its worth setting up a list of members then who freely allow the use of their pictures for visualisations?

The following names are here as they are happy to volunteer any images for use in SCC/21C work provided a credit and/or permission is granted/used.

1. Scouseyuppie01
2. Gareth
3. Tom
4. Juxtapol
5. Doug Roberts
6. Dj Billy
7. Tony S
8. liverpolitan
9. Woody

You can count me in.

thats the thing though with scouserdave, he was angry because i didnt ask OR leave a credit, the last time he got angry and posted images of me on here.

So, for the sake of speed and convenience, i just left a credit.

Maybe its worth setting up a list of members then who freely allow the use of their pictures for visualisations?

1. Scouseyuppie01
2. Gareth
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

As one of the few people on here who has posted photos I would like to make it clear that I wish to be asked before my images are used for any purpose other than strictly personal viewing.

I can understand the views of people on both sides. But at the end of the day, people who save up to buy camera equipment, and then spend lots of their free time taking nice photos, and then spend their time uploading them for the pleasure of others should be appreciated for making that effort in the first place. It is photos that make this forum worth visintg more than anything else. If people wish to be contacted, on balance, I think that should just be respected.

Count me in too (ie I don't need to be asked whether you can use my photos for non-profit, SCC or 21CL activity, as long as I'm credited where possible and informed where my photos have been used)

Thats coll urbanise, i respect that. This list is purely for those who are ok with their pics being used. I have started before this all kicked off again to use permission or state a credit after anything i produce as naturally i am looking start creating my own website with a view to showcasing work that might at one point in the future generate a profit, so there will come a point were i wont use anyones to be honest, permission or not! :lol:

I am also happy for you to use my photos in non-profit, SCC or 21CL activity, as long as I'm credited where possible and informed where my photos have been used.

Credit given to Tom's post above (saved me writing that above :) )

Same for me, as posted by Juxty.

Ditto.

Not that I'm able to take that many anymore!