continued from old thread.

btw, i will be on ROC sometime this month after having not been there in 25 years...and too young to remember.

Either today or tomorrow I will post Rochester related links I have collected over the years. I'll also try to give a bit more indepth look into some of the major projects going on here.

Not Rochester per-se, but related -

--

Best places to live: Rural America
Progressive Farmer crunches the numbers and picks the nation's top rural counties on price, pollution, education, recreation and more.
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
February 2, 2006: 2:56 PM EST


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - New York State, home to the nation's most populous city, also has the best rural county to live in, according to the latest issue of the lifestyle magazine the Progressive Farmer.

Deep, clear glacial lakes, grapes grown on some of the richest farmland in the country and a smoothly-functioning local government are some of the attributes that landed Ontario County, located 45 minutes from Rochester, at the top of the 2006 survey, the magazine's second.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/01/pf/best_rural_counties/ruralplaces.03.jpg
Ontario County, New York, one of the best places in rural America to live.

In addition to such tangible attributes, the magazine also considered cost of living, crime rates, air quality, access to healthcare, education and leisure activities. The magazine used data compiled by OnBoard LLC.

The result is a list of 200 counties across the nation where city dwellers or suburbanites could ditch the rat race for quiet, clean country living. For Progressive Farmer's complete story and full list, click here. The Progressive Farmer is owned by CNNMoney.com parent Time Warner.

Oconee, Ga. made the list at No. 3, in part due to its proximity to the college town and cultural hotbed of Athens.

Grafton, N.H. is on the list for the second year in a row, this year at No. 4. The northern county is settled in the heart of the White Mountains, with abundant skiing, hiking and other recreational opportunities, and is also home to Ivy League Dartmouth College.

Hood River County in Oregon, an hour's drive from Portland with fruit orchards and vineyards, green dome hills and jaw-dropping vistas of the craggy Mt. Hood, ranked No. 10.

Criteria such as healthcare, education and leisure activities explain why many of the selections are near major urban areas.

"We feel like we're going to see that in every list," Jamie Cole, Progressive Farmer's creative director, told CNN/Money. "As this trend of moving to rural counties continues, most people are going to look just one or two counties over."

Cole said that while a lot of the people moving to the country are professionals from the city or suburbs, they aren't necessarily looking to recreate their old life with simply a different view from the kitchen window.

"They're not moving out buying a McMansion on an acre," he said. "They're buying 20, 30, 40 acres."

And not only are they buying it, but they want to learn how to make money from it through farming or raising animals, he said.

The influx of city folk to the countryside has resulted in the usual land use and infrastructure stress caused by urban sprawl, and many of the old time residents in the article were quick to point that out.

While there is some tension between old and new residents, Cole said some of that is relieved by the willingness of the newcomers to learn the ways of the land, and the willingness of the old hands to help them.

"You've got to learn that stuff somewhere, and a book isn't going to do it," he said. "But they guy who's been living next to you for generations can teach you if you want to learn."

Also heartening for this latest round of back-to-the-landers -- real estate prices in many places haven't skyrocketed the same way they have along the coasts.

"I don't see the same bubble in rural areas," said Cole. "There are some good values out there."

That's no surprise. Ontario county is the one with the only real substansian growth in the Rochester metro... probably Western NY (after Tompkins County probably)

Double post... my bad. Anyways, I posted an article from the D&C yesterday in the old Roch development news. and here is another one from today about the same subject... kickstart money that Rochester is getting.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060202/BUSINESS/602020355

$37M booster shot in the works

Bush's new program aims to shift our jobs to emerging fields


Joy Davia
Staff writer


(February 2, 2006) — The Rochester/Finger Lakes area is getting a $37 million infusion to help its economy.

The nine-county area was one of 13 regions chosen from among 97 proposals nationwide to be awarded $15 million each in federal money, paid over three years.

It's part of a $195 million investment through a program unveiled Tuesday in President Bush's State of the Union address. It's being called WIRED, or Workforce Innovation in Regional Economic Development. In a conference call Wednesday, U.S. Secretary of Labor Elaine L. Chao called the program "one of the largest grant packages in the department's history."

Added to the federal money will be $22 million that will be raised by 21 local partners — including governments, community colleges, universities and business and work force investment groups — who will be part of the WIRED initiative.

The money will flow through RochesterWorks, designated the local lead on the project. Officials have not finalized specifics, such as which projects will be funded, said Matthew Hurlbutt, RochesterWorks' executive director. A governing board drawn from the 21 partners will oversee the project.

The goal? Help Rochester in its shift away from dependence on manufacturing — which has been in decline — and toward emerging sectors that will require a work force with different skills, Chao said.

The money will be used to attract companies and train workers in entrepreneurship, optics and imaging, biotechnology and life sciences, and alternative energy, Chao said.

In-demand jobs range from optics technicians to engineers in the life sciences field, Hurlbutt said.

"But a lot of the jobs we need we don't even know about yet, like those in alternative energy," he added. He said the money provided through the program will allow the region to adapt training classes as needed.

In November, state governments nominated up to three regions with "transitional" economies — either statewide or across state boundaries — that struggled with problems such as natural disasters, outsourcing or an over-reliance on struggling industries. The Rochester area was the only region picked in New York state.

Chao said the winning entries "had the best combination of public and private partnerships" to help implement the job-growth initiatives.

"This initiative will enable us to strengthen regional collaboration and build on the entrepreneurial spirit that has long been a hallmark of our community," said a statement from Monroe County Executive Maggie Brooks, whose government is part of the initiative.

WIRED will help the area build upon its assets: its educated work force and "advanced industries that are poised to grow," said James Winston, executive assistant to the president for work force development at Monroe Community College, which is a local partner.

He noted one project in the proposal: community colleges partnering with schools, such as Edison Technical and Occupational Education Center, to create labs where students would learn new, advanced technology during the day and adults would train at night. Other initiatives could range from better commercialization of research from local universities to helping entrepreneurs embrace new technologies, Hurlbutt said.

"This is just the sort of boost that's needed to stimulate the transformation of Rochester's work force for the high-tech, ideas-based economy of the future," University of Rochester President Joel Seligman said in a statement. UR is among the 21 local partners.

By the way Jman, I remember a while ago you making a thread announcing that you were moving back to NY but weren't quite sure where yet. Did you make the move yet?

Here I go again...

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2003/02/14/cx_bs_0214home.html

Best places for Education. Nice article, with Albany finishing in 3rd place and Rochester in 6th place. Even though negatives were mentioned for Rochester in the article, they are still offset enough to rank Rochester high on the list.

http://democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=BUSINESS

Today is a particularly development heavy day in the D and C business section 2/3/2006.

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2006/01/30/daily38.html?jst=b_ln_hl

Rochester ranks third in the state for the most factories. My friend has a contradictory opinion about that because he feels that the more factories a city has the more blue-collar the population. What are other peoples take on that idea?

JMancuso.....when you are in town my friend and I would be willing to give you a short tour of the town. Or I can at least reccomend places you can check out. When you are in town be sure to stay at the http://www.innonbroadway.com/main/index.php. A true example of the resurgence in downtown Rochester. It is a privately owned boutique hotel opened up right off of East Ave about 3 years ago. It is located in the former University Club and houses a trendy restaurant called tournedos. The hotel has been a HUGE success. As the administrator you should be able to see my e-mail address and e-mail me if you need some help.

Rochester ranks third in the state for the most factories. My friend has a contradictory opinion about that because he feels that the more factories a city has the more blue-collar the population. What are other peoples take on that idea?

Amount of factories isn't the be all end all in determining blue-collarness of a city. Typically I too would think was true, it makes sense, but I'm sure that the amount of people working in the factories is much better indicator...i.e. if City A has 1 factory employing 100,000 people, and City B has 10 factories employing 20,000 people total...I would consider City A more blue collar than City B...assuming the cities were close to the same size.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060203/NEWS01/602030386

$172M project for arts floated


New concept is for 3 theaters downtown, big annual fund drive

Joseph Spector
Staff writer


(February 3, 2006) — Monroe County officials and arts groups have been quietly discussing a massive plan to build three performing arts theaters in downtown Rochester and set up an umbrella group to help fund local arts organizations.

If the $172 million vision becomes reality, downtown Rochester could become a booming center for traveling Broadway-style shows, the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra and community theaters.

The theaters would be built in conjunction with Renaissance Square, a $230million downtown project now on the drawing board, which calls for a performing arts center, a bus terminal and a Monroe Community College campus.

At Renaissance Square, on East Main Street between Clinton Avenue and St. Paul Street, the performing arts center would have two theaters, one with about 2,800 seats for large traveling shows and one with about 250 seats for community theater groups, such as the Downstairs Cabaret Theatre.

The third theater, a medium-sized venue of about 1,500 seats, would be built several blocks east at East Main and Gibbs streets, across from the Eastman Theatre.

The idea is still preliminary, officials caution. And the huge price could be a major obstacle.

The new money would help with the cost of the Renaissance Square arts center, estimated between $90 million and $100 million, fund the mid-sized theater and pay for renovations at the Eastman and Geva theaters. So the total bill could exceed $300million; about $160million in government aid has already been arranged.

Monroe County Executive Maggie Brooks met last week with Rochester's state legislative delegation to suggest the idea. Organizers pitched seeking a whopping $92 million in state aid, according to lawmakers at the meeting.

The rest, about $80 million, would come from a broad fundraising drive, which would be one of the largest efforts in the area's history.

Umbrella group

As part of the private fund drive, lawmakers said, arts groups would establish an umbrella organization, like a United Way for the Arts, that would raise money annually to support the theaters and the arts. But Brooks has been tight-lipped about the proposal and wouldn't even confirm that it's being pitched. She and other leaders warned that there are many loose ideas being discussed to accommodate the city's array of arts groups, many of whom are in desperate need of new performance space.

"Nothing has been finalized," Brooks said. "We are not promoting one idea over the other. We are really quite honestly waiting for the delegation to guide us on what is feasible, what is realistic."

And that is now the unknown. State lawmakers said they only heard a presentation about the idea — with no documentation, no written proposals — so they have not reached consensus on whether to push Albany for what may be Rochester's largest aid request in recent memory.

'Skittish' community

Some officials questioned whether expanding the Renaissance Square project would be fiscally responsible at a time when local governments face big deficits, local taxes continue to rise and the economy is sputtering. And the community just watched the city rack up more than $40 million in debt in its failed effort to operate the high-speed ferry to Toronto.

That's why Brooks said she's not ready to go public with a proposal.

"We have a community that is very skittish right now about public projects in the wake of the fast ferry," Brooks said. "The danger of going out to the community before we have a well-formulated and consensus decision, you are going to have a lot of speculation about what is going to happen."

Some leaders questioned what a private fund drive would do to other nonprofit groups' fundraising.

"There may not be enough private dollars available in the community to support this project as well as our annual contributions to United Way and other nonprofit groups," said Assemblywoman Susan John, D-Rochester.

Other officials said Rochester should think big.

"If you are going to build a first-class project that could have the effect of transforming Rochester, then you have to be prepared to ask for the resources to make that happen," said Assemblyman Joseph Morelle, D-Irondequoit, an architect of the idea and head of the Assembly's Committee on Tourism, Arts and Sports Development.

Decade of proposals

Arts groups in Rochester have spent more than a decade pitching proposals to build new performance halls — such as a roadhouse theater at the half-empty Midtown Plaza or in the struggling High Falls district. Each idea, though, has met funding and organizational setbacks, leaving highly regarded arts groups such as Garth Fagan Dance without permanent places to perform.

But when Brooks took office in 2004, she championed Renaissance Square to create synergy downtown and provide space for the arts, an indoor facility for bus riders and a new campus for MCC.

The project has drawn broad support as a way to rid the heart of downtown of blight and vacant buildings. Already about $160 million in county, state and federal money has been designated for the project, allowing the county to hire renowned architect Moshe Safdie and express optimism that construction could begin in 2007.

But the earmarked money would mainly cover the cost of the bus terminal and MCC, leaving the arts center largely unfunded. That's where the new fund would come in.

Initially, planners hoped to build three theaters — large, medium and small — at Renaissance Square. But Brooks said this week that there isn't enough space for three theaters on the one square block along East Main Street.

The county, which is spearheading the project, hired a private consulting firm to present options for the arts center. While county officials have not yet released the consultant's report, Brooks said the most obvious option may be to build only the large and small theaters.

But Morelle and arts officials have argued that the greatest need may be for a mid-sized theater, a place that could house Garth Fagan Dance, the RPO and other groups. The Rochester Broadway Theatre League has performances at the remodeled Auditorium Theatre, which has about 2,500 seats, and would move into the large theater.

So building Renaissance Square and not addressing the demand for a mid-sized theater could be short-sighted, Morelle said. In an April 2004 report, an arts committee recommended that Renaissance Square house three theaters or that the mid-sized theater be at Gibbs and Main.

Assemblyman David Gantt, D-Rochester, who heads the city's Assembly delegation, said that "leadership should come from the locals" and that if Brooks wants $92 million in state aid, he'll fight to get it. Sen. Joseph Robach, R-Greece, said he, too, would support it.

County officials have suggested that the $92 million could be secured over several years. But Assemblyman Joseph Errigo, R-Conesus, Livingston County, questioned whether such a large request could, or should, be met.

"Ideas are great. I could come up with ideas every day," he said. "But who is going to pay for it?"

Dream or reality?

The proposal is so new and so preliminary that many arts leaders either didn't feel comfortable talking about it or didn't know specifics.

Mayor Robert Duffy said he has received one briefing about Renaissance Square and hasn't been updated about the new idea. Still, he supports the project.

Sarah Lentini, president of the Arts & Cultural Council for Greater Rochester, declined to discuss details and referred calls to Mark Ballerstein, the county's point person on the project. He could not be reached.

Lentini and other arts leaders hosted a conference in December intended to link the 573 arts-related businesses that employ nearly 16,000 people in the Rochester region. One idea was to consider a united arts fund, which would raise money each year for arts groups. In Cincinnati, a fine arts fund brings in $11million yearly.

Some leaders said that if there were more modern, centrally located theaters, the city could better capitalize on its artistic resources. Some arts groups rent space all over the county. Arts groups say the new theaters would provide additional venues for performances, as well as offering modern amenities.

Mercury Opera Rochester, for example, presented Puccini's Madama Butterfly last weekend at the Eastman Theatre. It also has used Roberts Wesleyan College. If a mid-sized theater were built, the opera could move there.

"I need something downtown. That would be ideal," said Kris Kessler, the opera's director.

The Downstairs Cabaret Theatre, meanwhile, presents plays and musicals at three locations and has long sought a 250- to 300-seat theater. Now, said producing director Chris Kawolsky, troupes perform in better facilities on the road than at home.

"The more attention, the more facilities we get, the better the arts are going to be in Rochester. Something has to happen with Rochester, and what's a better idea than to redevelop downtown and make it an arts center?"

IMO, all of New York's rural counties seem quite beautiful, at least in Western New York. I haven't been in Ontario county before. But I have been in at least 6 different counties in WNY. That's good to hear, though! Hope that boost helps the Rochester economy somewhat!

The idea of three theaters is ludicrous, who would go to it. The one we have now is used less than 100 days per year. Do they think they are going to get people from Buffalo to come to see a show or spend a weekend in Rochester get real. Think about, your in Buffalo and decide to go away for the weekend are you going to Rochester or are you going to Toronto? We are both about the same distance fom Buffalo I think 99% of the people will choose Toronto. Even people from Rochester preferred Toronto as the the ferry ticket sales proved. So what we have left is the shows now in one venue spread over three none of which will bring in new outside dollars. This is foolish. The money if it is going to be spent at all should be used to lure new industry to town

^^ That's what the money from W.I.R.E.D is for.

It does seem a bit foolish, but I can't blame anyone for dreaming big. What's the worst that could happen? It goes splat? Oh, like that hasn't happened before.

I say go for it. What the hell.

George Carlin is going to be in Rochester in April at the Auditorium Theatre. I would go if I knew it was going to be new material, but honestly I don't think it will be. Just saw him here at Shea's a week before the newest CD was recorded in NYC (which was a carbon copy of the show I saw), and it was good (and painfully stinging but truthful commentary on American life) but wasn't so great where I'd go to see it again. Besides I just bought the CD today and I have the HBO special taped, not like I couldn't just watch/listen to it anytime I wanted to anyways.

an Update on the performing arts in Rochester.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060205/NEWS01/602050333

Special Section
Complete coverage on Renaissance Square

What's at stake
The future of downtown Rochester. Renaissance Square and other arts projects could play key roles in proposals to revive a struggling downtown. But some question whether the community can afford such grand plans.
Advertisement

What's next
In a few weeks, Monroe County officials are expected to release details of a consultant's report on the scope of the performing arts center at Renaissance Square. The report may include a broader plan to build two theaters at Renaissance Square and a separate one down the street.
Downtown arts plan refocuses the debate


Plan goes beyond Renaissance Square but many leery of the $172 million cost


Joseph Spector
Staff writer


(February 5, 2006) — Picture a downtown Rochester lined with theaters, stores and restaurants.

One night, you could see a performance by Mercury Opera Rochester; the next take in an intimate performance at the Downstairs Cabaret Theatre.

Those theaters and others are already scattered around Rochester, and plans have long been in the works for a performing arts center in the proposed Renaissance Square project.

But in recent days, arts groups and public officials began talking publicly about a grander, more cohesive and pricier way to create an economic anchor for the beleaguered downtown.

That plan would entail building three theaters and forming an arts organization to raise money annually.

Some community leaders greet this new vision with skepticism because of its $172 million price tag, the possible drain of funding for midsize groups and the potential delay in completing Renaissance Square. They are leery of expanding an already-large public project after the high-speed ferry's demise.

Others defend the new proposal. "Not only does it make sense from an entertainment perspective as a drawing card for residents from the city and county, but also as an economic development driver," said Rochester Mayor Robert Duffy.

The addition of the $172 million proposal, while preliminary, could help offset some of the costs of Renaissance Square, the $230 million project already on the table that would include a performing arts center, a Monroe Community College satellite campus and a bus terminal off East Main Street between North Clinton Avenue and St. Paul Street.

About $160 million in government aid already has been designated for Renaissance Square, but the money is mainly for the bus terminal and college campus. The new money would go to the performing arts pieces.

So in all, the total bill would be more than $300 million.

Two theaters — one with 2,800 seats and one with 250 seats — would be built at Renaissance Square. A midsized theater of about 1,500 seats would be built a few blocks east at East Main and Gibbs streets, diagonal from Eastman Theatre.

That plan is being lauded by the arts community, which has long sought public aid and attention in its quest for modern facilities.

Other cities such as Newark, N.J., and Dayton, Ohio, have built performing arts facilities to energize their downtowns. Arts development "is thought of correctly as a central piece in creating a meeting place and a vibrant downtown," said Anita Kramer of the Urban Land Institute, an agency based in Washington, D.C., that studied Rochester's downtown last year.

With about seven theaters downtown, leaders say art is one of Rochester's best resources, yet it hasn't reached its potential. Many groups perform at rented, often inadequate space.

"It's a great vision. It makes a lot of sense," said Jeff Springut, a Rochester events planner. "We have to make the city a great place to live. So what do you do when you get here? How do you entertain yourself, your family and our friends?"

High cost

But the big idea would come with big bills at a time when Rochester and Monroe County are predicting massive budget deficits and when the economy is far from booming. Of the $172 million, local leaders are asking for $92 million in state aid. That would be a tough sell in Albany, where every lawmaker fights for aid for his hometown. Arts groups would also seek $80 million in private contributions, which would be an unprecedented local fund drive.

Sandy Parker, president of the Rochester Business Alliance, said expanding the arts is an important goal, but "I don't think accessing $80 million would be an easy task."

Ruby Lockhart, executive director of Garth Fagan Dance, expressed concern that the fund drive would leave little money for the renowned troupe — even though it could ultimately be housed in a midsized theater.

"It would kill our organization," she said.

Still, other arts leaders in Rochester and in other cities say that fundraising for the arts wouldn't infringe on other nonprofits. The United Way of Greater Rochester expressed support for the idea.

"We see a fundraising effort, on behalf of Renaissance Square, as complementary to efforts to improve the overall quality of life in our community," said spokeswoman Nancy Goldsmith Zawacki.

Local arts groups are talking about forming a United Way for the Arts. It would be modeled after similar initiatives nationwide, including in Cincinnati, which has a program called the Fine Arts Fund that raises about $11 million annually for the arts.

Beth Charlton, spokeswoman for the Fine Arts Fund, said the fund works like the United Way, where businesses give employees a chance to contribute to the fund directly from their paychecks. Then the agency disburses the funds.

Big vision

Alberto Rodriguez, 53, of Rochester said he likes the idea of expanding the arts in the city. "It's worth it if you are going to bring some economic development to downtown."

Supporters of Renaissance Square point to public projects in other cities as examples of how downtowns can be reborn with a signature project. Three years ago, Dayton opened a $130 million, three-theater arts center that includes an 18-story tower for offices and condominiums. Government funds paid for half of the center, which in turn has spawned other investment.

The New Jersey Performing Arts Center in Newark, which has one large and one small theater, opened in 1997 and was widely hailed as a first step to reviving the beleaguered downtown. The project cost $187 million, with about $106 million from the state.

Heidi Zimmer-Meyer, president of the Rochester Downtown Development Corp., said Renaissance Square already has drawn interest from private investors who may want to develop properties near the project. And there's hope that Renaissance will trigger new ways to redevelop the struggling Sibley Building and Midtown Plaza.

She warned that the project should not be delayed to find funding for a midsized theater, which would be near the Eastman School of Music, part of the University of Rochester. Construction for Renaissance Square is set to begin in late 2007 and "needs to get moving and moving toward a construction point," she said.

Monroe County Executive Maggie Brooks, who is the project's champion, has declined to discuss a possible expansion of Renaissance Square. She said it's too early to release any details.

The project is being managed by the Main & Clinton Local Development Corp., a nonprofit, quasi-governmental entity made up of the project's stakeholders — the county, city, MCC and the Rochester-Genesee Regional Transportation Authority.

Clearly, some are skeptical of jumping into another major public project after the city's failed attempt to rescue the high-speed ferry to Toronto.

"I think we've lost touch with fiscal reality," said Democratic County Legislator Paul Haney, a longtime critic of the bus terminal. "There is not the kind of money in this community that there was 20 years ago."

But Rochester developer Larry Glazer said expanding the arts beyond Renaissance Square could bring additional investment to downtown Rochester.

"If they are able to, in fact, raise the money, it's a wonderful way to restart downtown and re-create a cultural hub," he said. "Instead of being a downtown known for empty office buildings, it would be known as a cultural center."

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And here's another possitive take on UR taking the lead as the regions top employer......

Change at the top


UR, now the leading local employer, can be a unifying force




(February 5, 2006) — Numbers can and do lie, certainly, but they also can tell a story deeper than simple markings on a page. The official ascension of the University of Rochester to the top rung of local employers — its payroll of full-time workers now tops Kodak's — heralds a change not merely in work force but in the economic future of the region.

This isn't just one dominant employer replacing another. This is a 20th-century icon of private-sector innovation and manufacturing giving way to a sprawling institution of higher education and health care. The former is an engine of the economy; the latter fuels the economy with intellect and knowledge, from which come research, new business and community growth.

This is a difference that brings with it new responsibilities. If Kodak was the father, leading by fiat, then UR is the brother, slightly older, slightly smarter, leading by creative energy, dependent on cooperation from all the littler brothers and sisters down the line.

UR, under new President Joel Seligman, is poised to lead. But, whereas Kodak could haul the community along in its profitable wake, UR depends on a web of public-private partnerships.

The quality of university life depends on a vibrant, attractive city. UR spin-off businesses depend on federal and state aid and supportive public policies. The UR Medical Center depends on a national and communitywide effort to control health costs and balance competition with collaboration.

The good news is that local synergy is building. The news of the past week points this out. UR and Seligman were partners in a successful collaborative pitch to bring millions in federal jobs funds to the region. Two business organizations, the Rochester Business Alliance and the Rump Group, are joining forces. There is talk among the arts community and politicians to seek more state aid to create more theater venues.

Turf battles? Sure, there are plenty of those. And they can keep the talk from becoming walk.

But Seligman and others are setting the right pace — they're moving ahead and they're moving together.

MAGGIE'S FOLLY REPEATS OLD MISTAKES

They never learn.

Politicians.

They never learn.

They move from one fiasco to the next, too stupid and too uncaring to recognize their folly. Too consumed by the arrogance of their own poor judgment to recognize how loathsome and failed they so often are.

Like Maggie’s Folly.

It was learned last week that Monroe County Executive Maggie Brooks is secretly organizing a $172 million boondoggle for downtown Rochester, a string of theaters for modern dance and opera and traveling plays.

As her county totters on the verge of bankruptcy she has found her own fast ferry. Taking a page from the caesars she is building circuses while the empire falls.

The plan would be in addition to the downtown monstrosity she previously championed, the $230 million Renaissance Square bus station.

Let’s do the math. Two hundred and thirty for one project and one hundred and seventy for the other, that’s a total of four hundred.

Four hundred million dollars.

Four hundred million tax dollars.

For a transit bus station, an unneeded branch of a community college, a 2,800-seat theater, a 250-seat theater, a 1,500-seat theater and the refurbishment of two other theaters.

Somehow it has been decided that what this dying region needs is more Shakespeare venues. Hemorrhaging jobs. Highest crime rate in the Northeast. Highest rate of welfare reliance in the state. Lowest high-school graduation rate. Near bankruptcy at all levels of government. And Maggie wants to piss tax dollars away building theaters for the elite that will sit empty more than 95 percent of the time.

It’s as if she’s jealous of everything Bill Johnson did with High Falls and the fast ferry.

And so she’s got her secret plan.

Secret because she and the other high-and-mightys don’t want any criticism of their idiocy.

Ironically, her partner in the project is Joe Morelle, the chairman of the Monroe County Democratic Party. She’s a Republican (in name only) and he’s a Democrat (to the core of his being) and they both think this is a good idea.

Which makes me think that cooperation between the parties is no good if all they’re going to do is figure out ways to screw us more efficiently. If they’re both on the same side that doesn’t leave anybody to be on our side.

So Maggie wants her $172 million. Some from the feds and some from the state and the rest from a new charity-for-the-arts fund she wants people to contribute to. Her county already contributes far above the national average to charities, her county’s non-profit industry is among the most powerful in the nation, regular charities are already struggling to stay afloat.

And she wants hundreds of millions of tax dollars and donations so that blue-haired biddies can watch the symphony in more comfortable seats.

They never learn.

Politicians.

They never learn.

And they never quite get over their hypocrisy.

Because this same Maggie Brooks is singing the blues over the fact her budget is looking at a hundred million dollar deficit over the next two years. She has gone so far as to solicit ideas from the public on how she can do her job of balancing the books.

Suggestion 1: Pull the plug on asinine political-contributor-reward projects like the Renaissance Square and this theater boondoggle.

To simultaneously claim poverty and smothering tax burden while scheming to fritter away $172 million of taxpayers’ money is not morally reconcilable.

Nor is this project morally reconcilable in the context of her repeated complaint that Rochester’s poor people use welfare at a higher rate than similar poor people elsewhere in New York.

Maggie’s point – which is well taken – is that the poor people of Rochester have no higher poverty rates than in Buffalo or Syracuse, but they have far higher rates of reliance on social-service programs. Put another way, Rochesterians really like to suck on the welfare tit.

But this theater plan just shows again that the tendency to sup at the trough is not limited to Rochester’s poor people. Those at the other end of the economic scale like free money as much as anybody.

And it is hypocritical to condemn poor people for over-reliance on taxpayers’ money when rich people have the same over-reliance. Dipping into the public treasury for Renaissance Square and this theater project is first cousin to welfare fraud.

It is nothing more than taking money from productive people and businesses and throwing it into the cesspool of public spending. These theaters will serve only a tiny portion of the community, they will generate no discernible economic vitality, they will reward the elite and politically connected, they will take more downtown property off the tax rolls, and they will further suffocate a region, state and nation operating deep in the red.

They are imbecilic.

Maggie’s Folly should meet the same fate as Johnson’s Folly.

For the same reasons.

They never learn.

Politicians.

They never learn.

- by Bob Lonsberry © 2006

January home sales in the Rochester region fell 5.9 percent to 759 from 807 a year ago, the information subsidiary of the Greater Rochester Association of Realtors Inc. reported Monday.
Sales also were down 31.3 percent from December. The median sale price of $106,000 was down 4.5 percent from $111,000 in December.
The dollar volume of sales in January was $102.7 million, down just 0.3 percent from a year ago, but down 30.2 percent from $147 million in December.
Closings in Monroe County in January fell 8.4 percent to 503, compared with 549 a year ago. They also fell in Orleans, Wayne and Wyoming counties but rose in Ontario, Livingston and Genesee counties.

And where did you get that from? (by the way, home sales always drop dramatically in Winter, , so the 31.3 should be no surprise) You always post all of these things with no links or sources, I'm having to wonder were you get them all from, especially this one, seeing as the last months have brought nothing but strong home sales in the area. Post a link to the article. (10 bucks says she totally ignores me or changes the subject)

I find your numbers especially puzzling seeing as this article was in the D&C just a few weeks ago, saying quite the opposite.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060110/BUSINESS/601100325/-1/ARCHIVE5

Area housing market hits another record


Many wonder: How in this economy?


David Tyler and Amy Wu
Staff writers


(January 10, 2006) — The story of the Rochester real estate market repeated itself in 2005: Strong demand, spurred by historically low interest rates, led to the second sales record in three years.

The prolonged success of the real estate market, in the face of a sluggish local economy and predictions of a bursting national housing bubble, has left local observers searching for an explanation.

"We all need to be thankful for whatever it is," said Diann Sneddon, an associate broker with Prudential Twelve Oaks Realty.

The Greater Rochester Association of Realtors reported Monday that:


Sales of existing single-family houses in its 11-county survey region numbered 13,312 in 2005, up 4.3 percent from last year and breaking a record set in 2003. The number of sales in 2004 was just shy of the 2003 record.

The dollar amount of those sales totaled $1.8 billion — a record for a second year in a row and 9.3 percent higher than last year.


For the year, the average price of a home in the region rose 4.8 percent, to $135,330.

In Monroe County, sales rose 3.3 percent in 2005. Hot areas included Mendon, Parma, Perinton and Irondequoit. Sales in the city of Rochester rose 4.7 percent.
Industry observers said that interest rates, despite rising a bit, remain a driving factor in the strong sales.

"Certainly it's been an outstanding year, largely a result of very modest interest rates, people feeling very good about the economy," said Tom Schnorr, president of ReMax First, a realty company with offices in Brighton and Greece.

First-timers and upgrades

In 2005, Schnorr saw a rise in the number of first-time buyers, and buyers who sold existing houses and upgraded to new ones. "It's been a domino effect that has been very positive."

John Hurrell, 36, a software engineer and his wife, Xiao Li, 30, bought their first house in October. Hurrell said he was in no hurry to buy in 2005, but the couple fell in love with a 1,600-square-foot house in Perinton because it was close to Xiao Li's school.

"I wouldn't call it impulse buying, but we fell in love with the home," he said, adding that low interest rates also played a role in the decision.

"It was good to get in because of the really low interest rates."

Michael Haymes, president of ReMax Realty Group, also saw many buyers who upgraded to new houses.

"I think that the price of houses in Rochester and surrounding counties is so favorable that the people here are trading up," Haymes said. Haymes' company saw $350 million in transactions for 2005, an almost 8 percent increase from 2004.

Experts also attributed the growth to employment increases in small and medium-sized companies.

"Everyone talks the economy, and we're all concerned about Rochester," Haymes said.

"What we're finding is there are people coming into town not with Kodak and Xerox, but with smaller companies that are bringing in people."

A note of caution

There are some notes of caution in the sales report from the association.

The number of purchase offers accepted, an indication of future closings, dropped 15.4 percent from December 2004 and 19 percent from November.

But Sneddon of Prudential Twelve Oaks Realty said she's learned not to underestimate the housing market's staying power, despite predictions of a slowdown.

"We all said that last year there would be a slowdown and look what happened," she said


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's from the D&C, and this is from the RBJ:


Home building slowed in 2005, but 2006 looks busier

By MARY STONE
Rochester Business Journal
January 20, 2006
Preliminary reports show local home-building permits in 2005 were down some 7 percent from 2004. Area layoffs, combined with the effects of rising fuel prices, made consumers apprehensive to buy, experts say. But 2006 already is showing signs of being busier.
While the total number of building permits granted last year still is being tabulated, Rick Herman, executive vice president of Rochester Home Builders Association, said last year appears to have been an average year for new homes.
As of November 2005, early industry estimates show Ryan Homes of New York filed the area’s largest share of building permits last year, with 14.8 percent of an estimated 1,177 in total building permits.

The complete story appears in the Jan. 20 Real Estate and Construction Special Report in the print edition of the Rochester Business Journal.

And where did you get that from? (by the way, home sales always drop dramatically in Winter, , so the 31.3 should be no surprise) You always post all of these things with no links or sources, I'm having to wonder were you get them all from, especially this one, seeing as the last months have brought nothing but strong home sales in the area. Post a link to the article. (10 bucks says she totally ignores me or changes the subject)
I live here I got this from the local paper, not everything is online junior sometimes it pays to actually live in the area you are talking about it provides you with knowledge you cannot get from the internet.

And where did you get that from? (by the way, home sales always drop dramatically in Winter, , so the 31.3 should be no surprise) You always post all of these things with no links or sources, I'm having to wonder were you get them all from, especially this one, seeing as the last months have brought nothing but strong home sales in the area. Post a link to the article. (10 bucks says she totally ignores me or changes the subject)
I live here I got this from the local paper, not everything is online junior sometimes it pays to actually live in the area you are talking about it provides you with knowledge you cannot get from the internet. Perhaps it will be in the online addition Tuesday. Whty do you feel it necessary to comment on every article everywhere on this site that does not agree with you? If you do not like the truth save yourself the aggravation and ignor my posts. It is after all what I and most people do with 99% of your posts.

That's bull. They do post it all on on the website. If they posted the other homesale news on the interent, they would have posted that on the internet as well. You are so full of crap. One thing that all sources have pointed out is that the real estate market in the area is one of the positive economic indicators. If numbers from January said otherwise, they would have posted it online as well.

I did not say the above was from the D&C. Your assinine comments prove my point that you have no clue what is going on here. But this below is from the D&C and yes Mr. High School Junior they are saying otherwise, you can quote anecdotal comments all you want it is the hard numbers that tell the story;

The number of closings and the dollar volume for January fell below the levels of January 2005. But the number of listings took a huge jump, according to figures released Monday by the Greater Rochester Association of Realtors.

In January, 2,020 houses were listed for sale in the 11-county market, up 95.5 percent from December 2005 and 27.8 percent from January 2005.

"That is definitely a sign for a buyer's market — more inventory,'' said Bob Miglioratti, chairman of the Greater Rochester Association of Realtors.

But Miglioratti said the rest of the numbers — monthly closings down 5.9 percent year-to-year with the median sale price up 3.9 percent to $106,000 — were far less startling.

"I was rather surprised,'' he said. "I expected to see the numbers off rather dramatically.''

see above

people who frequently call others junior typically have a giant ego or an even bigger inferiority complex.

people who frequently call others junior typically have a giant ego or an even bigger inferiority complex.

No actually , I called him junior simply because he is a junior in High School it was a reference to his age and his naive outlook on my city: This outlook is a consequence of 1) his age which prevents him from having any meaningful context in which to gauge Rochester's present state in relation to our past prosperity and 2) the fact that he lives some thousand miles away and has no firsthand knowlege of what is happening here.

nothing personal, i just had a boss once who liked to call people junior and it really rubbed me the wrong way.

People on this forum should always post the source of their statistics. It helps people who are studying Rochester learn more and become more productive. If there is a website, put the link. If it is from a newspaper, mention the date and page.

Susie, for the 1 millionth time, you are the "assinine" one, if A. you haven't the sense of distance to realize that Raleigh is 680 miles away and not 1000, nor the decensy to post entire articles with the entire story. The numbers actually say the total opposite, that not many people are leaving. Here is the full, and documented article. Something that Susie never seems to be competent enough to provide:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060207/BUSINESS/602070343

House sales start 2006 slowly


Closings decline 5.9 percent from January 2005; listings show big increase


Frank Bilovsky
Staff writer


(February 7, 2006) — After a record-setting 2005, Rochester-area house sales took a step backward in the first month of the new year.

The number of closings and the dollar volume for January fell below the levels of January 2005. But the number of listings took a huge jump, according to figures released Monday by the Greater Rochester Association of Realtors.

In January, 2,020 houses were listed for sale in the 11-county market, up 95.5 percent from December 2005 and 27.8 percent from January 2005.

"That is definitely a sign for a buyer's market — more inventory,'' said Bob Miglioratti, chairman of the Greater Rochester Association of Realtors.

But Miglioratti said the rest of the numbers — monthly closings down 5.9 percent year-to-year with the median sale price up 3.9 percent to $106,000 — were far less startling.
"I was rather surprised,'' he said. "I expected to see the numbers off rather dramatically.''

The January figures also surprised Michael Haymes, broker/owner of ReMax Realty Group in Pittsford, but for a different reason.

"We were up 4 percent — 4-and-change, actually — for January,'' Haymes said. "I assumed it was going to be across the board. The weather has been perfect, the interest rates are still around 6 percent. It has all the ingredients for a good market.''

Miglioratti said the weather may have been the overriding factor in determining the hefty increase in listings.

"That's the only thing I can attribute it to,'' he said. "There aren't a lot of people leaving town.''

Sales for January in all of Monroe County dipped 8.4 percent to 503. Rochester fared better, showing a gain of 1.5 percent to 134.

Dollar volume for the month was $102.7 million, down 0.4 percent from $103.1million in the same month a year ago.

Purchase offers in January, however, were at 744, up 3.9 percent from a year ago and up 61.7 percent from December. The average sale price of $135,511 was an increase of 6 percent from a year ago.


AND AGAIN. NEVER HAVE I EVER EVER DENIED THE FACTS, that Rochester is far less prosporous than it used to be. In no way, shape or form have I said otherwise. The only point that I have been making, and that you can't seem to comprehend, is that it will not decline forever, and that many factors, including history, support that statement. I know that Rochester is in deplorable condition compaired to what it used to be like, but I also know that it has the ability, and at long last, the integrity, to rise agian. That's not a far fetched statement, not in the least. What is ridiculous is your constant psycho-analyzation of me trying to figure out what "problem" makes me like Rochester. First it's that I use Rochester as a replacement for a girlfriend, then it's trying to bring life back to what it was when my parents were still married... what next? Why can't it just be that I want to live in the area because I like the community and the lifestyle that it offers? (lets see if she will totaly dodge that one too)

Do you have any reading comprehension?

FYI - 1) There was a 95% increase in homes listed that means that there were 95% more people deciding to sell out than in the prior period

2) A buyers market means that more people are selling than buying this leads to downward pressure on the selling price as there are less people buying or moving into the area than selling and moving out of the area.

3) More inventory means more people want out.

4) Miglioratti's comment is strictly anecdotal.

5) Purchase offers are meaningless, it is common for there to be multiple offers on a hot property and none on otheres, the only number's in the article that matter are listings and closings.

Do you have any reading comprehension?

FYI - 1) There was a 95% increase in homes listed that means that there were 95% more people deciding to sell out than in the prior period

2) A buyers market means that more people are selling than buying this leads to downward pressure on the selling price as there are less people buying or moving into the area than selling and moving out of the area.

3) More inventory means more people want out.

4) Miglioratti's comment is strictly anecdotal.

5) Purchase offers are meaningless, it is common for there to be multiple offers on a hot property and none on otheres, the only number's in the article that matter are listings and closings.


Maybe it also means there are more new homes coming on the market.

Do you have any reading comprehension?

FYI - 1) There was a 95% increase in homes listed that means that there were 95% more people deciding to sell out than in the prior period

2) A buyers market means that more people are selling than buying this leads to downward pressure on the selling price as there are less people buying or moving into the area than selling and moving out of the area.

3) More inventory means more people want out.

4) Miglioratti's comment is strictly anecdotal.

5) Purchase offers are meaningless, it is common for there to be multiple offers on a hot property and none on otheres, the only number's in the article that matter are listings and closings.

You omitted two of the most important reasons for the nationwide slowdown in the real estate market - increasing interest rates and decreased discretionary spending due to increased energy costs.

I assume from your comments about the city and your "Rochester - Made for Leaving" banner, that you plan to relocate soon. If so, I hope your move to "greener pastures" works out for you.

If you intend to stay, I would be interested in seeing you post YOUR vision of the "right moves" to improve the economic future of our great city.

North Coast, hang on to your seat because this makes no sense at all. She's going to stay in Rochester as long as her husband keeps his job at kodak. Go back to the second half of the first Rochester development news thread and you'll see that while she's not making any immidiate plans on moving, she continues to doom and whine about Rochester and manages to twist everything that the D&C posts into bad news.

To Steel: it does not mean new homes coming on the market it means existing homes going on the market, that is what this service tracks - existing home sales. Keep your rose colored glasses on steel baby but remove enough of the rose that you can actually see something through them.


To Northcoast: Show me one site that shows that nationwide new home listings were up by 95% for that matter show me one other city that doubled the amount of existing homes put on the market. If it is national as you say than this should be easy for you. I am not talking 5-10% increase we are talking 95% here.

But lets see how you spin this from the D&C into more good news.



ITT cuts 128 today; feds say 'stop work'


Ben Rand
Staff writer


(February 7, 2006) — The Rochester-based Space Systems division of ITT Industries Inc. is issuing layoff notices to 128 people today, stemming from changes in a government program and Congressional funding delays in the fiscal 2006 budget.

Just because more houses are on the market, by itself, makes population figures indeterminate. Either as Steel mentions, more new houses are coming on the market (you do have a handful of growing suburbs - Webster, Greece, Perinton?), or maybe many of these people are just moving within the city. Same thing here, we are losing population yet the numbers can still be deceiving due to fast growth in Wheatfield, Lancaster (one of the, if not NYS' fastest growing town), and probably in a year or two, Elma.

Besides, either my eyes were fooling me, or back before we all grew up around here and settled the Buffalo vs. Rochester differences, I believe census figures were quoted saying the Rochester MSA (or Monroe Co, or something) was actually managing modest population gains. I don't think it was Rochester proper (at least due to continued white flight), but some metro statistic. I'm sure one of the Rochesterians here can back that up.

rochester msa and monroe county made population gains between 1990 and 2000.
given the current economic situation i'd be surprised if that had continued.

when i moved here(the first time)in 1997, rochester had long had a reputation as being the upstate city that had escaped the fate of others, as one of america's orignal high tech cities. now it seems ever since then that rochester decline has been steadily snowballing. at one point i thought this town had a significant advantage over b-lo and the cuse, now i think otherwise.

To Steel: it does not mean new homes coming on the market it means existing homes going on the market, that is what this service tracks - existing home sales. Keep your rose colored glasses on steel baby but remove enough of the rose that you can actually see something through them.


To Northcoast: Show me one site that shows that nationwide new home listings were up by 95% for that matter show me one other city that doubled the amount of existing homes put on the market. If it is national as you say than this should be easy for you. I am not talking 5-10% increase we are talking 95% here.

But lets see how you spin this from the D&C into more good news.





ITT cuts 128 today; feds say 'stop work'


Ben Rand
Staff writer


(February 7, 2006) — The Rochester-based Space Systems division of ITT Industries Inc. is issuing layoff notices to 128 people today, stemming from changes in a government program and Congressional funding delays in the fiscal 2006 budget.


That is what I am saying susie. It does not track the people moving into new houses. In roch the only growth is in the outer counties which is most likely in new houses leaving more existing house product on the market

To Steel: it does not mean new homes coming on the market it means existing homes going on the market, that is what this service tracks - existing home sales. Keep your rose colored glasses on steel baby but remove enough of the rose that you can actually see something through them.


To Northcoast: Show me one site that shows that nationwide new home listings were up by 95% for that matter show me one other city that doubled the amount of existing homes put on the market. If it is national as you say than this should be easy for you. I am not talking 5-10% increase we are talking 95% here.

But lets see how you spin this from the D&C into more good news.






ITT cuts 128 today; feds say 'stop work'


Ben Rand
Staff writer


(February 7, 2006) — The Rochester-based Space Systems division of ITT Industries Inc. is issuing layoff notices to 128 people today, stemming from changes in a government program and Congressional funding delays in the fiscal 2006 budget.

Not going to spin it, but I am going to post the whole article. WHY THE HELL CAN YOU NEVER DO THAT?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060207/NEWS01/602080303

ITT cuts 128 today; feds say 'stop work'

Ben Rand
Staff writer


(February 7, 2006) — The Rochester-based Space Systems division of ITT Industries Inc. is issuing layoff notices to 128 people today, stemming from changes in a government program and Congressional funding delays in the fiscal 2006 budget.

The division recently received a "stop work" order on the program, which is of a classified nature, said Bernice Borrelli, an ITT spokeswoman. ITT, which specializes in high-end remote sensing technologies for aerial and satellite imaging, was a subcontractor on the program.

The cuts are in response to the "stop-work" order. ITT said it was able to retrain and redeploy an undisclosed number of employees.Space Systems was formed following ITT's $725 million purchase of Eastman Kodak Co.'s remote sensing division in 2004. The division is now one of Rochester's largest employers.

Borrelli said that even with the layoffs, Space Systems has still added about 275 jobs since closing the sale with Kodak.

After the layoffs, Space Systems will employ more than 1,800 people locally.

ITT remains optimistic about the prospects for growing the Space Systems unit. "We are very healthy and remain strong," Borrelli said.

Just because more houses are on the market, by itself, makes population figures indeterminate. Either as Steel mentions, more new houses are coming on the market (you do have a handful of growing suburbs - Webster, Greece, Perinton?), or maybe many of these people are just moving within the city. Same thing here, we are losing population yet the numbers can still be deceiving due to fast growth in Wheatfield, Lancaster (one of the, if not NYS' fastest growing town), and probably in a year or two, Elma.

Besides, either my eyes were fooling me, or back before we all grew up around here and settled the Buffalo vs. Rochester differences, I believe census figures were quoted saying the Rochester MSA (or Monroe Co, or something) was actually managing modest population gains. I don't think it was Rochester proper (at least due to continued white flight), but some metro statistic. I'm sure one of the Rochesterians here can back that up.

lol yes, we had this discussion on some other thread that susie spread too. The MSA has grown by .4% since 2000, what I would consider stagnation. Monroe county lost 168 people (the first time in the county's history that it has every lost population), while Ontario County grew by over 3000 or 3.3%, and all of the other counties in the MSA grew by several hundred people each. Not anything significant, but not a decrease in population. Between 1990 and 2000 metro Rochester grew by about 4% and Monroe County gained 22,000 people, so yes, it has deffinetly slowed to again, stagnation, however, not exodus.

It looks to me like Susie is talking about the current and future trends while some others such as Rocguy are clinging to the past accomplishments. Could be that there is simply a lag between what Susie feels by living there as opposed to the image that is lingering for those that do not. Could be...

I agree Jerome. I think the best way to look at things is really a combination of both. As strange as this may sound, many people in Rochester need a dose of reality, while at the same time many need more confidence and pride in our area. I believe that no matter where you live it is important to remember the past and and to highlight the history with pride. I love this community, other than college I've been here all 25 years of my life and I plan on being here for as much of the rest of my life as possible. But we are kidding ourselves if we always paint Rochester in the best of light. I think if you are presenting the city to people who know little to nothing about it, then focusing on the bright spots is recommended. However, in a discussion such as this amongst those who are familiar with the city, being frank is usually more productive.

While Susie's tone may be a bit harsh, she is right in that Rochester has more issues than one can count. Our leaders really need to cut out the bs and start making some actual progress. But we aren't exactly Flint either. This community has many assets at its disposal. The obstacles that prevent those assets from truly helping this region need to be removed.

As for the commentary by Bob Lonsberry Susie posted, I couldn't disagree with it more. Granted I rarely, if ever, find myself agreeing with anything he has to say. But it would be a disservice to this region if our politicians didn't take chances now and then. Is this city ever going to be a cultural mecca; a destination for people the world over to visit? Most likely no. But the theatre proposal isn't really meant for tourists. Yes it will hopefully attract some additional visitors, but its intent is for those of us living here. Improving amenities and making this a better place to live are ways to get young people to stay and others to move here. Yes we will never compete with the likes of NYC, Toronto or other major cities. But there is no reason why Rochester can't (as in the past) be one of the premier cultural mid-sized cities in this country. The fact is that we do have a lot of theatre groups and related performance activities that could utilize new space. And if new buildings help consolidate them and bring more people downtown then it is a positive thing.

As far as Rochester's housing growth is concerned, it is primarily sprawl-oriented. It is simply people already in the region moving farther outward. I wouldn't call it true growth unless there was any sort of population surge in the metro as a whole. Rochester's sprawl is worse than most like to admit. There is a reason our metro consists of 6 counties as opposed to Buffalo's 2 with similar populations. Ontario County is a perfect example of Rochester's sprawl. Fastest growing county in the metro. It has trendy, affluent communities with a relatively short commute(as compared to other metros) to jobs in the area. So it is no surprise that Victor, Farmington and Canandaigua are growing and filling with subdivisions(the first two primarily).

In many ways my city is going through the opposite of Rochester. There are a lot of positive things happening here such as Geico hiring 2,500 good paying jobs, the Casinos hiring over 3,000 workers, most of which pay 30k+ and many downtown buildings being rehabbed etc., etc. But, here no matter how much things have turned around most of the locals act as if we were still going downhill. Just as in Rochester, albeit from the opposite direction, our image has yet to merge with our new reality, which is slow job growth. We have gained jobs on a year over year basis for 23 of the last 24 months, yet the common perception is that we are losing jobs.

An article I posted over the weekend on the Buffalo thread details the strength of our economy and the fact that our economic output growth outpaced the national average over the past few years, yet ask the average person on the street and they act as if we are becoming an economic backwater.

But that is somewhat misleading. Buffalo may be doing well in terms of job growth (Although the Delphi problems could cause quite a hit), but the city and county's inability to come close to balancing a budget is what gives a bad impression. When you have a control board in charge of your finances it tends to cast a negative light. I agree with you that Buffalo has made some positive steps forward. But you can find positives anywhere. Rochester has had many companies that have added jobs as of late. The problem is when major manufacturers, such as Kodak and Xerox, are shifting their focus and downsizing is necessary.

I am not interested in a Buffalo vs Rochester competition, what I was saying is simply that the perception here has lagged the reality here just as it has in Rochester. I think from reading the various postings on both sites it is evident that Buffalo is clearly doing better economically at this time than is Rochester. However the perception on the street is lagging in that many have a mistaken belief that Rochester is doing better economically than Buffalo. It was the lag of the perceptions that I was referring to.

You say that Rochester has many companies that have added jobs of late and I do not doubt that this is true, but a regions economy is the sum of all of it's parts not just the ones that are doing well. I read on this thread that Rochester is the only city in the country that has not had even one month of year over year job growth since 9/11 and is the only City in the country for which this is true. And yes, I understand that companies come and go but when the goings outpace the comings for such an extended period of time I think it is a serious problem for your community. You all seem to get up in arms anytime there is a posting that has anything that could in any way be considered negative but if the topic is the local economy both good and bad news should be presented, just focusing on the good as if the bad was not happening gives a warped perspective. If you look at the Buffalo thread you will see that both good and bad news is presented without all the acrimony I see here. I have seen a lot of negative items and gripes on the Buffalo thread that are simply ignored or discussed with fact and not personal attacks. Here every negative item is pounced on as if it were a personal attack against the other bloggers and not just news. Just look at your respone to my previous post, I was simply trying to make an analogy and in response you attacked my City. You Rochester types need to be a bit less touchy don't you think.

Regarding Delphi- that is a situation that could hit both cities equally hard as they also have a major presence in the Rochester area. Neither sites are safe until the company comes out of bankruptcy. To think that one site or the other is home free at this time is not realistic as the viability of the Company as a whole is in question. It is not a given that any of it will be around in a couple of years.

Regarding the control board I do not think the average person here gives a shit as long as the company they are working for is propsperous. If anything the locals view the control boards as a good thing in that they reign in costs. The control board in NYC certainly helped to get their finances back on track.

From what I hear on our local radio Monroe County is projecting a $100 million plus defict for next year as well so a control board for you may be in the offing within the next year or so too. These boards are not a reflection of private business in the area they are rather a symptom of State mismanagement.

jerome i do agree with your post.

it should ne noted however that this will be the first year in ten years that rochester has not run a balanced budget. granted this has come at the expense of a number of cuts in public services, but i t was break even nonetheless.
it should also be noted that rochester credit rating is the highest of any city in the state(even nyc)

In many ways my city is going through the opposite of Rochester. There are a lot of positive things happening here such as Geico hiring 2,500 good paying jobs, the Casinos hiring over 3,000 workers, most of which pay 30k+ and many downtown buildings being rehabbed etc., etc. But, here no matter how much things have turned around most of the locals act as if we were still going downhill. Just as in Rochester, albeit from the opposite direction, our image has yet to merge with our new reality, which is slow job growth. We have gained jobs on a year over year basis for 23 of the last 24 months, yet the common perception is that we are losing jobs.

An article I posted over the weekend on the Buffalo thread details the strength of our economy and the fact that our economic output growth outpaced the national average over the past few years, yet ask the average person on the street and they act as if we are becoming an economic backwater.

I totally agree. I think Buffalo is an awsome city that doesn't get enough credit, especially from it's citizens. That is probably the explanation as to why the number of jobs increases, while the number of citizens decreases. It's very bazarre but will hopefull change soon. As for Rochester, F11roch made a good point that could be elaborated on by saying this; It isn't really all that Rochester's economy is bad, it's that Kodak and Xerox are shrinking a shitload as they change. I know that doesn't sound like it makes sense, and it sounds a little "Budha-ish", but that's how my uncle steve, the owner of a fast growing home inspection company in Pittsford, put it. Almost all of the job losses in the area are coming from it's largest 2 (well, formerly largest 2, now the 2nd and 3rd) employers. In contrast, there are a lot of smaller, more high-tech companies in the area that are growing and adding jobs. The numbers are small now, in the dozens or low hundreds, but they will continue to grow, and eventually outweigh the losses by the now dominant companies. This is where you can compare and contrast Buffalo and Rochester as well. Buffalo lost a tremendous amount of jobs when the steel and auto industries began to pack up and leave town about 30-40 years ago. The steel industry is the steel industry, those factories and companies couldn't really produce anything else. Now, after a long period of recession and stagnation, the numerous smaller, high-tech companies in Buffalo are making up for the losses made by the former giants of industry. In Rochester, they didn't have the steel industry, they had kodak, xerox, and baucsh&lomb. Those companies didn't start their declines until only several years ago, after having failed to keep up with the technolagy. Unlike the steel indsutry however, those companies can, and are, adapting the new technolagy to make up. Unfortunetly, the downside of that is that the new technolagy, nulls the need for thousands of jobs in the companies. B&L is actually rebounding now, and plan on adding around 500 jobs over the next year, and eventually, hopefully, kodak will make it's transition into a digital comapny complete and do the same. (in 2005, their digital camera sales accounted for the majority for the first time ever, 54%). Now, for the final point. Rochester's economy isn't a TOTAL loss, because the smaller comapanies can grow and are doing so. And as has been my point forever, while the picture for Rochester right now is very bleaque compaired to it's far more prospurous past, it's future can also be expcted to be a little brighter because of those factors. (I know, Budha-ish again). You can call me crazy or naive, but I'm sure they were calling people crazy and naive 10 years ago when they said the same thing about Buffalo.

Actually, you misinterpreted my post completely Jerome. If you saw my first post in this topic I have no problem at all admitting the many problems facing Rochester. And I stated that these topics should be used for divulging positive and negative news. Yes Rochester's ecomony could be better, but part of the reason for a lack of job growth from month to month is due to major layoffs by a select few companies.

As for Buffalo vs. Rochester, I had no intentions of making this a competitive thread. By mentioning the control board I was pointing out, that like Rochester, not all news is good, or bad.

And yes, theoretically since the entire company is in trouble you could say that puts all Delphi plants at risk. But more realistically, as the company restructures some plants are more vulnerable. And from what I have heard (my father is an engineer for Delphi here) the Rochester operations are considered to be fairly safe.

Rocguy - my point is that it matters not if some companies are growing, as long as the total net jobs in the economy is decreasing you have a major problem, you can cherry pick a growing company here and there but until such time as you start adding jobs on a year over year basis you are sinking, and to jump all over anyone that points it out with anecdotal stories otherwise is thin skinned. And yes I do find many of your comments extremely naive. You should print some of them off and look at them again in 15-20 years, then you will understand what I mean. It is not your fault and does not mean that you are dumb, it's just that things look a lot different at 16 than they do at 36. Time will mature you and your outlook in ways that you can not yet begin to imagine. I am not saying you will become bitter, but you will gain a fuller perspective that can only be achieved through life experiences. That said, I return now to my home base.

jerome i do agree with your post.

it should ne noted however that this will be the first year in ten years that rochester has not run a balanced budget. granted this has come at the expense of a number of cuts in public services, but i t was break even nonetheless.
it should also be noted that rochester credit rating is the highest of any city in the state(even nyc)
The big problem with municipal finances seems to be that there are too many local governments and too many State mandates. The local governments are effectively prevented from making meaningful reforms due to State laws, until this changes control boards will proliferate across the State. In some ways it seems more likely that Monroe County will need a control board before Rochester will. The alternative would be massive tax hikes for County residents.

I totally agree. I think Buffalo is an awsome city that doesn't get enough credit, especially from it's citizens. That is probably the explanation as to why the number of jobs increases, while the number of citizens decreases.
Yes, our citizens are definitely our own worst enemy. Unfortunately to effect a true change, I think many of these people need to leave in order to realize what they gave up (maybe I'm biased because that's what happened to me). And those who don't, well, addition by subtraction comes to mind.

Media doesn't help either (but really, who do they ever help?). For instance, I'm sick and tired of the Weather Channel showing somebody shoveling about two feet of snow off their porch (probably in Perry or Ellicottville or something) and with the caption "Buffalo Snow" (it's happened at least twice this week already). Anybody familiar with Buffalo will know that the city proper has had nothing more on the ground than a heavy dusting all week. You can still see the grass (which is still green, btw) for crissake. Now, personally I don't mind the snow, and I like the occasional massive snowstorm as much as the next guy. I'm just sick of it always being played on in a negative light. Enjoy all your real natural disasters, remainder of the US. Funny how TWC semes to be giving us the same airtime as the SoCal fires and mudslides.

However, I do think that there are many transplants out there that would move back given the opportunity and a credible impression that things were improving. I would imagine Rochester is in a similar position.

Instead of constantly cutting our promotional and tourism budgets (which is absolutely assinine), maybe we should pepper-bomb sunbelt cities (Charlotte comes to mind), and who knows what would happen. What's the worst that could happen - we lose more people? Pfff.

Rocguy - my point is that it matters not if some companies are growing, as long as the total net jobs in the economy is decreasing you have a major problem, you can cherry pick a growing company here and there but until such time as you start adding jobs on a year over year basis you are sinking, and to jump all over anyone that points it out with anecdotal stories otherwise is thin skinned. And yes I do find many of your comments extremely naive. You should print some of them off and look at them again in 15-20 years, then you will understand what I mean. It is not your fault and does not mean that you are dumb, it's just that things look a lot different at 16 than they do at 36. Time will mature you and your outlook in ways that you can not yet begin to imagine. I am not saying you will become bitter, but you will gain a fuller perspective that can only be achieved through life experiences. That said, I return now to my home base.

You don't even get my point; and if I recall, you actually did call me a moron the other day so your whole " looking out for the youngster" is a total crock. My point was, for the upteenth time, that while yes, things are bad NOW, they are not, as Susie so staunchly gripes, going to be so forever. If you look back at her previous posts you will see that she believes that Rochester will NEVER rebound and NEVER attract ANY people or companies (if I remember correctly, she suggesed Popeye's Chicken might be the only thing to come to town.) I am AGAIN, not saying that things aren't bad right now, for the love of god, how many times do I have to repeat myself. I'm just contradicting Susie's, and anyone else's, ridiculous belief that the area is doomed to "extinction".

you know its really nice to see western new yorkers in such firey debate over the state of our region.
imagine if we all turned our anger into action!

wanna know the economy of WNY?

look at Batavia!

more businesses, nicer government buildings, higher taxes, great schools (and expensive school tax) increasing social dependent population, increasing upper-class and a lowering middle class...hell thats state wide I guess.

fact is, the entire region and state are shedding middle class jobs, they are going south and west. If NYS wants to compete with anything without going broke, it needs to prevent brain drain and middle class fight to the carolinas.

remember it's nice to see the rich, it's okay to help the poor...but the middle class are the backbone of the economy, with them...the state will crash.

You don't even get my point; and if I recall, you actually did call me a moron the other day so your whole " looking out for the youngster" is a total crock. My point was, for the upteenth time, that while yes, things are bad NOW, they are not, as Susie so staunchly gripes, going to be so forever. If you look back at her previous posts you will see that she believes that Rochester will NEVER rebound and NEVER attract ANY people or companies (if I remember correctly, she suggesed Popeye's Chicken might be the only thing to come to town.) I am AGAIN, not saying that things aren't bad right now, for the love of god, how many times do I have to repeat myself. I'm just contradicting Susie's, and anyone else's, ridiculous belief that the area is doomed to "extinction".
I guess I was wrong you are not thin skinned or defensive at all. Why don't you just skip over the posts that irritate you so?

BTW Unless you are psychic Susies opinions about Rochester's future are every bit as valid as your own, perhaps more so since she is an adult that actually lives there and you are just a child that does not. Only time will tell which of you is correct, my guess is that the future will be somewhere in the middle of both your views.

^ i not arguing against any of your other statements, because susie makes some very credible points and rocguy seems a little short fused.
yet, in defense of youth, as an adult(physically anyhow)i have spoken to quite a few adults about local issues and feel that my 19yo brother has a better grasp on local policy and economics then most of the adults ive spoken with.
i think young people just get angry very easily.

If you live here you know where this is from, if not then skip it as it may upset you.


Not long ago, I was talking to a city teacher who observed that the weakening of the local economy has made her job even more challenging.

Teachers have long tried to engage the poorest and most-likely-to-drop-out students by promising that education is the key to a good and good-paying job.
"But now," she said, "they can see it's not necessarily so."

Yes, they can. And if anything portends a bleak future for our region it is a loss of jobs that leads to an exodus of talented young workers that leads to a higher tax burden for those left behind that leads to more job losses and so on until nothing is left.
No city can thrive with a reputation as a poison water hole.

We are not there yet, but the arithmetic isn't working for us. The newest news from the state Labor Department is that the five-county Rochester area labor force (the total number of people working or looking for work) stands at 520,900 — down by more than 10,000 over five years. The actual number of people employed dropped by 17,000 over that period.
Consistent with those findings, the New York City-based Manhattan Institute reported in early January that between 1995 and 2004, the state lost 1.7 million residents to other states.
And in her annual economic forecast speech to the Rochester Rotary Club in January, Rochester Business Alliance CEO Sandy Parker didn't waste any time getting to the point: "We are in trouble," she said at the top.
Of course, there are pockets of resurgence, she noted. Growth in the telecommunications industry, in particular, is outpacing state and national employment growth. And the RBA's late 2005 survey of small and medium-sized employers found that more than half describe business conditions as "good" or "very good," and three-quarters expect sales to improve in 2006.
Optimism is a good thing, but no sure predictor; if you run a business, after all, you have to believe in yourself or no one will.

And Parker, an optimist by nature, decided not to soften the bad news — hoping that it may finally lead to action in Albany.
What scares her most, she told me, "is population loss. If we are not able to attract or retain young people, that's a real concern," given that an abundant supply of skilled labor has always been a drawing card for Rochester.
"Upstate," she told the Rotary, "is sinking." While nationally the number of private sector jobs grew by 21 percent between 1994 and 2004, in upstate the expansion was just 3 percent.
"Had upstate metros grown at the same rate as the nation," she said, "there would have been 420,000 additional jobs — yes, that's additional — jobs by 2004."
So what can we do? RBA, the Rump Group (a coalition of business leaders) and other business organizations around the state are pushing recommendations in a new report, "Unshackle Upstate."
State and local taxes are driving jobs and people away, the report says. Per capita taxes in New York stood at $4,645 in 2002, 48 percent above the national average. The report calls for regulatory relief and tax cuts aimed at making the state more business-friendly. And if these steps won't fly in the much healthier downstate regions, then unshackle upstate, it says, by "shifting authority and resources to the regions."
Give the Rochester region, for example, a piece of the $2 billion in state economic development money and let its residents decide together how best to invest the money.
Well, yeah. It's worth a try. Now. Before the future just moves away for good.

I guess I was wrong you are not thin skinned or defensive at all. Why don't you just skip over the posts that irritate you so?

BTW Unless you are psychic Susies opinions about Rochester's future are every bit as valid as your own, perhaps more so since she is an adult that actually lives there and you are just a child that does not. Only time will tell which of you is correct, my guess is that the future will be somewhere in the middle of both your views.

I guess I was wrong too, you aren't arrogant, condescending, or a wheasle at all. lol, "child", I'm 17, I'm barely even a minor. I am a part of the workforce, I do my own taxes, I have a drivers license, a car payment, insurance, credit rating, checking account, and I will be able to vote in the upcoming midterm elections. Does that make me special? No, of course not, but it does make me a functioning part of sociaty, and not a "child". About the only thing that still makes me even remotely an "adolescent" or economicaly inferior to you is the fact that I live with my parents, and that will only be for another year. Next year I will be paying rent for my own apartment, my own utilities and all else. I am every bit a part of sociaty as you are. I'm also stuborn as hell and won't deny it for a second. I still don't think you comprehend my "views", if you think that the future will be somewhere in the middle of mine and Susie's, because that is not possible, there is no between. In the matter of "extinction" vs. "rebound", there really is no "middle". But seriously now, this has been skewed so far of base and it's just ridiculous, from now on, why don't we just stay on topic with Rochester Develpment news.

To make it simpler, there isn't a word written below that I don't agree with, ad I don't see why the theme of the article would upset anyone.


If you live here you know where this is from, if not then skip it as it may upset you.


Not long ago, I was talking to a city teacher who observed that the weakening of the local economy has made her job even more challenging.

Teachers have long tried to engage the poorest and most-likely-to-drop-out students by promising that education is the key to a good and good-paying job.
"But now," she said, "they can see it's not necessarily so."

Yes, they can. And if anything portends a bleak future for our region it is a loss of jobs that leads to an exodus of talented young workers that leads to a higher tax burden for those left behind that leads to more job losses and so on until nothing is left.
No city can thrive with a reputation as a poison water hole.

We are not there yet, but the arithmetic isn't working for us. The newest news from the state Labor Department is that the five-county Rochester area labor force (the total number of people working or looking for work) stands at 520,900 — down by more than 10,000 over five years. The actual number of people employed dropped by 17,000 over that period.
Consistent with those findings, the New York City-based Manhattan Institute reported in early January that between 1995 and 2004, the state lost 1.7 million residents to other states.
And in her annual economic forecast speech to the Rochester Rotary Club in January, Rochester Business Alliance CEO Sandy Parker didn't waste any time getting to the point: "We are in trouble," she said at the top.
Of course, there are pockets of resurgence, she noted. Growth in the telecommunications industry, in particular, is outpacing state and national employment growth. And the RBA's late 2005 survey of small and medium-sized employers found that more than half describe business conditions as "good" or "very good," and three-quarters expect sales to improve in 2006.
Optimism is a good thing, but no sure predictor; if you run a business, after all, you have to believe in yourself or no one will.

And Parker, an optimist by nature, decided not to soften the bad news — hoping that it may finally lead to action in Albany.
What scares her most, she told me, "is population loss. If we are not able to attract or retain young people, that's a real concern," given that an abundant supply of skilled labor has always been a drawing card for Rochester.
"Upstate," she told the Rotary, "is sinking." While nationally the number of private sector jobs grew by 21 percent between 1994 and 2004, in upstate the expansion was just 3 percent.
"Had upstate metros grown at the same rate as the nation," she said, "there would have been 420,000 additional jobs — yes, that's additional — jobs by 2004."
So what can we do? RBA, the Rump Group (a coalition of business leaders) and other business organizations around the state are pushing recommendations in a new report, "Unshackle Upstate."
State and local taxes are driving jobs and people away, the report says. Per capita taxes in New York stood at $4,645 in 2002, 48 percent above the national average. The report calls for regulatory relief and tax cuts aimed at making the state more business-friendly. And if these steps won't fly in the much healthier downstate regions, then unshackle upstate, it says, by "shifting authority and resources to the regions."
Give the Rochester region, for example, a piece of the $2 billion in state economic development money and let its residents decide together how best to invest the money.
Well, yeah. It's worth a try. Now. Before the future just moves away for good.

Why doesn't one of the Rochester forumers put together a list of the proposed and under construction projects in downtown Roch? It would be interesting to see the totals.

mis post

"child", I'm 17, I'm barely even a minor. I am a part of the workforce, I do my own taxes, I have a drivers license, a car payment, insurance, credit rating, checking account, and I will be able to vote in the upcoming midterm elections. Does that make me special? No, of course not, but it does make me a functioning part of sociaty, and not a "child". About the only thing that still makes me even remotely an "adolescent" or economicaly inferior to you is the fact that I live with my parents, and that will only be for another year. Next year I will be paying rent for my own apartment, my own utilities and all else. I am every bit a part of sociaty as you are.

You gotta admit he is a cute kid!!! He really should print some of his comments off and reread them in 20 years, I am sure he would get a kick out of it.

You really know things aren't going your city's way lately when your luck runs out even in situations like this. They made a big deal about the expansion at the zoo for the elephants.

Genny C's calf dies during labor


James Goodman
and Marketta Gregory
Staff writers


(February 10, 2006) — It was a long-awaited birth that ended in sadness.

News that elephant Genny C's calf never made it out of the womb was an ending that nobody wanted, but it couldn't have been avoided.

"Our baby elephant has died," a shaken Monroe County Executive Maggie Brooks announced Thursday, just hours after Seneca Park Zoo officials determined that Genny C's unborn calf was no longer responding.

Brooks said that while the death of the calf was cause for tears, she noted that Genny's pregnancy was an energizing force for the community. "It was a catalyst for bringing a lot of different factions together," Brooks said.

Although the new elephant barn's three stalls will be occupied by just Genny C and Lilac, Brooks said that zoo expansion plans would continue.

And zoo officials did not rule out having a third elephant in the future.

Genny C, the 28-year-old elephant at the zoo, went into labor Tuesday without any indication something was wrong. Zoo staffers felt the baby kicking inside on Monday.

By late Tuesday, chief zoo veterinarian Jeff Wyatt realized that there could be complications when he detected that just one of the calf's feet had entered Genny's birth canal.

By 10 a.m. Thursday, Wyatt had to break the news to county officials.

"The calf didn't respond to any manipulation of the foot — no response from calf, consistently," Wyatt said.

JGOODMAN@DemocratandChronicle.com

MGREGORY@DemocratandChronicle.com

ECoast, I will try to post a breakdown of projects tonight if I have time.

They interviewed the curator on WHAM this morning and he said that this meant the Genny would not be able to get pregnant ever again. He did say the zoo is still interested in a breeding program and may trade for another female sometime in the future.

"child", I'm 17, I'm barely even a minor. I am a part of the workforce, I do my own taxes, I have a drivers license, a car payment, insurance, credit rating, checking account, and I will be able to vote in the upcoming midterm elections. Does that make me special? No, of course not, but it does make me a functioning part of sociaty, and not a "child". About the only thing that still makes me even remotely an "adolescent" or economicaly inferior to you is the fact that I live with my parents, and that will only be for another year. Next year I will be paying rent for my own apartment, my own utilities and all else. I am every bit a part of sociaty as you are.

I'd say you are pretty smart for a 17 year old. You know a hell of a lot more about Rochester than I did about Buffalo when i was 17. Back then I was too busy playing baseball and skateboarding...the urban planning seeds had not been planted until about two years later.

Why doesn't one of the Rochester forumers put together a list of the proposed and under construction projects in downtown Roch? It would be interesting to see the totals.

I believe Rochesteraddict did that in the old thread.

I'd say you are pretty smart for a 17 year old. You know a hell of a lot more about Rochester than I did about Buffalo when i was 17. Back then I was too busy playing baseball and skateboarding...the urban planning seeds had not been planted until about two years later.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I'm sorry I carried on so much, but certain forumers have been refering to my age as if I were still dropping crap balls in my diaper.

You gotta admit he is a cute kid!!! He really should print some of his comments off and reread them in 20 years, I am sure he would get a kick out of it.

In 20 years I'll be too busy working my ass off for YOUR social security to do that. lol.

Ok, here's my take. Everyone is proud of where they live and usually their hometown. If they live somewhere that they are unhappy with that makes them 1.) Ignorant, 2.) A person who enjoys to be depressed or 3.) So poor that they can't afford to move away. Hometown pride squabbling is immature and a waste of time, find a new hobby. I don't live in YOUR city for probably a couple of reasons, maybe one of those reasons is because you live there, but get over it.

My view on the economy in Rochester. Cincinnati, Detroit, Milwaukee, Toledo, Dayton, Columbus, Youngstown, Akron, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Syracuse, Binghamton, Albany, Hartford, and Providence. These are all cities that had their lowest points and huge busts in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Their downtown's died, companies merged and folded, and corporations moved their operations to greener pastures in the south and China. Some of these cities have recovered by now, some have made moderate steps, and some have gotten worse. All of these cities had lots of sensational media headlines at those times about layoffs and downsizing. Rochester bucked that trend, and the 80's and 90's were the highlight of our years with lots of sprawling suburban expansion and affluent homes being built. This period during the mid 90's is when our downtown began to die, where all of the other cities downtowns died LONG before that. These other cities have had 30-40 years to recover by 2006. But now it is Rochester's turn for doom and gloom, and let me tell you it is not that bad. In 2001 came the recession and Rochester hasnt broken free yet. It has only been 5 years though, and great ideas and actions are being taken to ensure that Rochester does not follow the same path as some of these other cities. Yes there is a lot of bad press about Kodak and Xerox layoffs, but there are companies emerging here to take those companies place. The press and population is freaking out because Rochester has NEVER had a slump in big business, this is our first, we are still in shock that our smug city could possibly fail at anything. We are becoming a biotech, hydro energy, IT and Optics center of white collar workers, and leaving our (always highly paid, probably overpaid) blue collar manufacturing work force in the past. Luckily most of the blue collar workers are of retirement age, the rest will have to move to the south to replace less intelligent southern workforces.

My take on the South, West and manufacturing. Products that are made in China, go there to die. Products are manufactured here first, to save money they eventually move to China to be made. 10 years later they become obsolete and that plant closes or is reconfigured for another product that will be obsolete in 10 years. i.e. Kodak instant cameras, they wont be around by 2010. The same goes with cities in the South and West. If you move there for the weather thats one thing. Then please stay there, you belong there. The South and West is full of young people who arent intelligent enough to get a job in the North, they can get a job over the telephone because they can do things 3 times as fast as someone originally from the South. My friend lives in Atlanta and he hears all the time "You yankee's are ruining the south, you make us look bad with all your ideas and fast talking." The rest are people that enjoy sitting on the beach during the day and waiting tables, bartending, or valeting cars at night. The last option is that you are old and its better for your bones. As for companies moving there...let them move...it helps their profit margins for now. They move there because a city like Charlotte, had NOTHING 10 years ago. If you have nothing to begin with, you can wave taxes for 20 years for a business because what have you lost? But, when 2,000 new residents move there and you have to build roads, offer social services, and provide land for housing, eventually something has to give. I have a friend that lives in Charlotte, where the price of homes has tripled in 5 years, and I have a friend in Florida where sales tax went from 3% to 6% in 2 years. Soon the South and West will have the same amt of taxes on businesses the North has and all of those companies will move back North, closer to where they are headquartered. It is all cyclical.

Just like Rochester's economy, it will bounce back, no one is sitting back and watching the city slip into the sewer. Get involved in any business community circle or networking organization and you will hear about all of the good things happening around Rochester. In fact some businesses try to keep the media out of their business for fear that they will spin it into negative news. Some good news, Kodak and Xerox may be smaller, but Bausch and Lomb is hiring 500 highly paid ee's $50,000+ in the next year. Paychex is hiring 3,500 low paid workers $30,000+ in the next 3 years, Constellation Brands is growing, Paetec will be expanding by 150 ee's, CGI-Google will be hiring 150 ee's, Preferred Care and Blue Cross Blue Shield will add 600 ee's together. Remember when Xerox moved their HQ to Connecticut because there was no income tax there? Now that Connecticut has income tax, they have moved most positions back here, only the executives that choose to still live in Connecticut are stationed there. Anne Mulcahy (CEO) spends more time in Roc than in CT now. There are all kinds of other companies that everyone doesnt know about as well. Hickey-Freeman, Zweigles hot dogs, Birds Eye, Pactiv (Invented and makes Hefty garbage bags), Kaplan container corp, Gleason Works, West Group (Law books), all of these companies are functioning well with stable work forces and hefty profits. We have others, a division of Kraft (invented and still produce Coolwhip here), Ultralife batteries, Heluva Good Cheese, Vaccinex, Genencor, GM's hydrogen car R and D plant, Harris Beach, Nixon Peabody (Both huge law firms employing over 1,000 ee's in Roc)..the list goes on.

Ecoasttransplant, if you would like to see lots of positive development news, check out my posts on the Rochester Development News I. There are LOTS of links I posted towards the end of the forum with almost all of the developments going on. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=241912&page=27&pp=20

For all of you still on here from the old forum....I'm still waiting for interesting links regarding Rochester development? (Check out my old posts to minimize duplication) http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=241912&page=27&pp=20

^^ So there's someone else out there who "gets it". Thank you. Amen.

But I must add that you seem to have left out one prominent Rochester company, one to which I can walk rather than driving 60+ miles to support...

http://www.whec.com/gfx/orig/252.jpg

And I don't care if you grew up across the street from one - you don't fully respect the place until you've lived in a place that doesn't have one!

I gotta be honest, without the last two comments on this message board thread, I am embarassed and appaled by just how rediculous this thread has gotten. It's pretty much broken down like this:
50% bickering back and forth between RocGuy and Susie
25% ROC vs. BUF
20% newspaper articles with no constructive comments
5% constructive comments

it's gotten to the point where it is pointless to read this thread, and/or respond to anything on here...

correct me if i am wrong.

^^ Wish I could. Trust me, I am sick of the bickering and it appears Susie is too because she hasn't made a post in a few days. I'm just goint to ignore her from now on I think. It's clear that she is the odd-ball out in thinking the area is going to fall into the oblivian and all hope is lost (if that is what she really thinks, I think she just says that to get to me). For my PART in the bickering, I whole-heartedly apologize to everyone on this thread. oh yeah and.......

Ok, here's my take. Everyone is proud of where they live and usually their hometown. If they live somewhere that they are unhappy with that makes them 1.) Ignorant, 2.) A person who enjoys to be depressed or 3.) So poor that they can't afford to move away. Hometown pride squabbling is immature and a waste of time, find a new hobby. I don't live in YOUR city for probably a couple of reasons, maybe one of those reasons is because you live there, but get over it.

My view on the economy in Rochester. Cincinnati, Detroit, Milwaukee, Toledo, Dayton, Columbus, Youngstown, Akron, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Syracuse, Binghamton, Albany, Hartford, and Providence. These are all cities that had their lowest points and huge busts in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Their downtown's died, companies merged and folded, and corporations moved their operations to greener pastures in the south and China. Some of these cities have recovered by now, some have made moderate steps, and some have gotten worse. All of these cities had lots of sensational media headlines at those times about layoffs and downsizing. Rochester bucked that trend, and the 80's and 90's were the highlight of our years with lots of sprawling suburban expansion and affluent homes being built. This period during the mid 90's is when our downtown began to die, where all of the other cities downtowns died LONG before that. These other cities have had 30-40 years to recover by 2006. But now it is Rochester's turn for doom and gloom, and let me tell you it is not that bad. In 2001 came the recession and Rochester hasnt broken free yet. It has only been 5 years though, and great ideas and actions are being taken to ensure that Rochester does not follow the same path as some of these other cities. Yes there is a lot of bad press about Kodak and Xerox layoffs, but there are companies emerging here to take those companies place. The press and population is freaking out because Rochester has NEVER had a slump in big business, this is our first, we are still in shock that our smug city could possibly fail at anything. We are becoming a biotech, hydro energy, IT and Optics center of white collar workers, and leaving our (always highly paid, probably overpaid) blue collar manufacturing work force in the past. Luckily most of the blue collar workers are of retirement age, the rest will have to move to the south to replace less intelligent southern workforces.

My take on the South, West and manufacturing. Products that are made in China, go there to die. Products are manufactured here first, to save money they eventually move to China to be made. 10 years later they become obsolete and that plant closes or is reconfigured for another product that will be obsolete in 10 years. i.e. Kodak instant cameras, they wont be around by 2010. The same goes with cities in the South and West. If you move there for the weather thats one thing. Then please stay there, you belong there. The South and West is full of young people who arent intelligent enough to get a job in the North, they can get a job over the telephone because they can do things 3 times as fast as someone originally from the South. My friend lives in Atlanta and he hears all the time "You yankee's are ruining the south, you make us look bad with all your ideas and fast talking." The rest are people that enjoy sitting on the beach during the day and waiting tables, bartending, or valeting cars at night. The last option is that you are old and its better for your bones. As for companies moving there...let them move...it helps their profit margins for now. They move there because a city like Charlotte, had NOTHING 10 years ago. If you have nothing to begin with, you can wave taxes for 20 years for a business because what have you lost? But, when 2,000 new residents move there and you have to build roads, offer social services, and provide land for housing, eventually something has to give. I have a friend that lives in Charlotte, where the price of homes has tripled in 5 years, and I have a friend in Florida where sales tax went from 3% to 6% in 2 years. Soon the South and West will have the same amt of taxes on businesses the North has and all of those companies will move back North, closer to where they are headquartered. It is all cyclical.

Just like Rochester's economy, it will bounce back, no one is sitting back and watching the city slip into the sewer. Get involved in any business community circle or networking organization and you will hear about all of the good things happening around Rochester. In fact some businesses try to keep the media out of their business for fear that they will spin it into negative news. Some good news, Kodak and Xerox may be smaller, but Bausch and Lomb is hiring 500 highly paid ee's $50,000+ in the next year. Paychex is hiring 3,500 low paid workers $30,000+ in the next 3 years, Constellation Brands is growing, Paetec will be expanding by 150 ee's, CGI-Google will be hiring 150 ee's, Preferred Care and Blue Cross Blue Shield will add 600 ee's together. Remember when Xerox moved their HQ to Connecticut because there was no income tax there? Now that Connecticut has income tax, they have moved most positions back here, only the executives that choose to still live in Connecticut are stationed there. Anne Mulcahy (CEO) spends more time in Roc than in CT now. There are all kinds of other companies that everyone doesnt know about as well. Hickey-Freeman, Zweigles hot dogs, Birds Eye, Pactiv (Invented and makes Hefty garbage bags), Kaplan container corp, Gleason Works, West Group (Law books), all of these companies are functioning well with stable work forces and hefty profits. We have others, a division of Kraft (invented and still produce Coolwhip here), Ultralife batteries, Heluva Good Cheese, Vaccinex, Genencor, GM's hydrogen car R and D plant, Harris Beach, Nixon Peabody (Both huge law firms employing over 1,000 ee's in Roc)..the list goes on.

Ecoasttransplant, if you would like to see lots of positive development news, check out my posts on the Rochester Development News I. There are LOTS of links I posted towards the end of the forum with almost all of the developments going on. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...2&page=27&pp=20

For all of you still on here from the old forum....I'm still waiting for interesting links regarding Rochester development? (Check out my old posts to minimize duplication) http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...2&page=27&pp=20

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


I think you may be my long lost brother Rochesteraddict.

Ok, here is development news. Neighborhood revitalization, this is the kind of stuff that gets posted in the other cities' development news thread, so it should fit in here too. The makret view neighborhood is infamous in Rochester because the very popular Rochester Public Market is it's neighbor, and when suburbanites or people from safer ares of the city go to the public makret, they always dread having to go through this hood. Here's the article with details from the D&C


enlarge MAX SCHULTE staff photographerMalcom Taaffe and stepdaughter, Janessa Lotemple, 8, stroll through the Public Market on the way to her school.
Day in Photos

What's at stake
The vitality of a Rochester neighborhood. Proponents of a strategy to revitalize Marketview Heights hope to improve living conditions and reduce crime in one of the city's most troubled areas.
Advertisement

Hope gets boost in troubled area near Public Market


Strategy for Marketview Heights revival calls on residents to pitch in


Patrick Flanigan
Staff writer


(February 11, 2006) — Georgia Nesmith attended one meeting and they pulled her right in.

Now she's a full-fledged community activist, caught up to her ears in an effort to revitalize one of Rochester's most troubled neighborhoods.

"I wanted to move, but there's no way I can," said Nesmith, who lives on the corner of North Union Street and Kenilworth Terrace in Marketview Heights. "I figured, 'OK, maybe I'll do what I can to make it better.'"

Nesmith now finds herself engaged in the Marketview Heights Revitalization Strategy, a potentially multimillion-dollar program started almost a year ago by residents and nonprofit and government agencies to improve safety and living conditions in the neighborhood bordered by East Main Street, Clifford Avenue and North and North Goodman streets.

A draft of the strategy released this week calls for launching the project right outside Nesmith's door, along Union Street — the gateway to the Rochester Public Market, the neighborhood's namesake.

"We felt it would be good to really use that asset as something we could build around and create momentum," said Spring Worth, the project manager for Rural Opportunities Inc., a nonprofit agency that has more than 180 residential units in the neighborhood.

In addition to the plan to revitalize Union Street from East Main Street to Central Park over two years, Phase I of the strategy includes calls for such neighborhoodwide improvements as renovating the landmark Eastman Dental Dispensary, focusing attention on crime hot spots and developing an "equity assurance" program to stem the erosion of housing values. The strategy estimates the first phase would cost $5.2 million over two years.

Julio Vazquez, the city's commissioner of community development, was unaware of the plan when approached Friday. However, he said it points out the need for the city to conduct a market study and develop a comprehensive housing plan that sets priorities and a direction.

"We need some strategies," he said. "Everybody now is talking about different projects."

Marketview Heights organizers say the plans and proposals are pointless without more community involvement, which is where people such as Nesmith will play a vital role. She has volunteered to start recruiting her neighbors to walk in police-citizen patrols or join in street cleanups, among other things.

She's fully aware of the risk involved with knocking on strange doors around her. Since she moved to the neighborhood in 1999, four homicides have happened within a short walk from Nesmith's apartment. And drug trafficking remains a constant issue on nearby Weld Street.

"I'll be honest, I'm a little bit nervous," Nesmith said. "But I think the time has come for us to do something."

Hanif Abdul Wahid, a member of the Marketview Heights Neighborhood Association and founding member of Rochesterians Against Illegal Narcotics, agreed to join Nesmith in the recruiting effort.

Nesmith, a former journalism professor who sometimes teaches online courses, said she rented her apartment after she was disabled by severe depression, chronic fatigue and chronic pain.

She said she recently has begun to emerge from her depression and last year planted flowers outside her building.

"I've lived here six and a half years and I got tired of it being ugly," she said. "But after I planted (the flowers), people stopped to talk to me and thanked me. It's like I'm part of the neighborhood."

Ok, I guess that neighborhood rehab story didn't intrest anyone, maybe this one will. There is much more hope for this neighborhood. I've been to it. There is a nice little park surrounded on four sides by a nieghborhood four streets deep with many nicely maintaned victorian houses. It's pretty close to the recently gentrified Browns Race area, by High Falls. It also supports the idea that PAETEC park is a great boost for the city.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060213/NEWS01/602130328

New stadium neighbors: 'We got the bad out'

Neighbors of the new park are dedicated to making their area thrive, but want outside help


Brian Sharp
Staff writer


(February 13, 2006) — When Tony Davis moved to the historic Jones Square Park neighborhood, "It was gang. It was prostitution. It was drug dealing. It was kids running astray, mothers, fathers not at home."

Four years later, thanks to efforts by residents and Interfaith Action, Jones Square has started to change.

"We got the bad out," Davis said. "We put the good in."

In four months, a new neighbor will open its doors and welcome 17,500 people to the area. Davis can see the lights of PAETEC Park soccer stadium from his home. Before that time comes — or at least before any more state money is spent on the stadium — Davis and Interfaith Action want $5 million in public money to build or rehabilitate 50 houses in the neighborhood. With a total public investment of $8.7 million, Interfaith Action — a local grass-roots organization that mobilizes through churches — pledges to leverage millions of dollars more for a total of 129 homes and apartments in the neighborhoods surrounding PAETEC Park.

But the money might be hard to come by, and the neighborhoods aren't the only ones asking Albany for money. The Rochester Rhinos' owners, who got $15 million from the state to build the stadium, want an additional $15 million to top it off with luxury boxes and other amenities.

But Brian Kane, executive director for Interfaith Action, says, "Our position is they really shouldn't get the second-phase money without a specific, dedicated amount going to the neighborhoods around the stadium and without the city committing to development.

"You can't create an economic development project like that without doing some real development around the stadium."

Who will pay?

Interfaith Action developed its improvement plan for the Jones Square, Brown Square and JOSANA neighborhoods over the past year. The plan, endorsed by former Mayor William A. Johnson Jr., would leverage $10.5 million in private funding. Kane said the focus areas for redevelopment are around Spencer and Ambrose streets; an old industrial area northeast of Smith and Whitney streets; and Saratoga Avenue and Verona Street south of Lyell Avenue. Four homes are scheduled for demolition on the one-block stretch of Saratoga Avenue in Brown Square, city records show.

In Brown Square — home to PAETEC Park — median household income in 1999 dollars is approximately $12,415, with more than one-third of households below the poverty level. Income levels are half the citywide average, while poverty levels are eight times greater, U.S. Census figures show.

Rhinos majority owner Frank DuRoss said he would commit about $1 million to neighborhood improvements if the full $15 million grant for additional stadium work comes through. His focus is specifically on Broad and Smith streets and Saratoga and Lyell avenues.

"I think there will be money spent in the neighborhood by us regardless," DuRoss said.

Sen. Joseph Robach, R-Greece, sought $1.7 million for the neighborhoods last year but declined to talk in detail last week about what he could deliver.

"It may be incremental," he said, "but I believe, in the end, I will be able to get some significant resources to help them ... to at least get them started."

Mayor Robert Duffy is equally supportive but noncommittal on funding. The city already kicked in $4 million for stadium construction.

But with neighborhoods in the northeast also seeking support, he said, the community needs focus.

"We cannot afford to go off in a variety of different directions," said Duffy, who will meet with Interfaith Action today.

The Interfaith Action housing plan would be the first Community Benefits Agreement, a new tool the group is proposing to require specific investment in neighborhood development with any government-supported economic development project.

Moving forward

"We understand this (the full 129-unit housing project) won't happen at once," Kane said, estimating that it would take a couple of years to assemble the money.

The next step is to get financial commitments from other players, including the city, have the city inventory its properties, then sign up a developer.

At a minimum, DuRoss said, there is a need for better landscaping, fencing and lighting on the streets around the stadium. Greater police and security patrols are part of the plan for PAETEC Park.

With the help of all stakeholders, he said, it would be possible to tackle vacant lots and abandoned properties, at least to add surface parking and ultimately to build new housing and businesses.

Opinions differ on whether and what development might occur simply because the stadium is there. Davis worries the stadium will pull the bad elements back into his neighborhood.

But DuRoss said that once the community sees the area as a safe place for events, the good will follow.

"We are going to bring people down to that area who have never been there before," DuRoss said. "... I think this only improves the value."

But Kane is less certain: "At some point that may begin to happen, but the truth is the market doesn't care about who is living there right now and the market doesn't care about affordability. The private market will move faster if it sees city investment ... and it could be a model for other city neighborhoods and the comeback of the city."

I don't know if stadiums revitalize their immediate neighborhood historically, but they create spending in nearby bars and restaurants. If this stadium is to become part of the "greater high falls district," then the jones square neighborhood will gentrify with people wanting to live closer the the action. For this to happen, the bars/restaurants, stadiums and apartments should be linked together in a continuous fabric.

For people not living in rochester:

Stadium Location:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=800+Broad+St,+Rochester,+NY+14606&ll=43.16146,-77.629609&spn=0.019064,0.066819&t=h


High Falls:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=50+browns+race,+Rochester,+NY&ll=43.16182,-77.6127&spn=0.009532,0.033731&t=h


That illustrates the urban planning problem. There are a lot of parking lots in between. Maybe Kodak, whose corporate headquarters is in between the two sites, should sell some land being used as parking lots now to build retail and residential.

I'll be flat out honest right here, I HATE the surroundings of PaeTec Park. Not because I'm afraid of african americans, or latino's who live in the neighborhood (which is the major sticking point with those in the suburbs) but because it is a terrible, terrible, neighborhood, that needs major MAJOR work. Form the road network (traffic from 17,500 suburbanites will be terrible getting to 490, it already gets bad for frontier field on game nights, now they will stretch all the way to lyell) too the surrounding structures, I mean this is in the middle of an "Industrial park" with limited parking within a short walk. It will do well, but I'd also like to see the neighborhood do well also.

As a side note, is it just me or does the entire west side of the city not have a "good neighborhood" minus the 19th ward, which is rapidly digressing (trust me I used to live there)

Due to the large decline in employment in the Rochester area the poor economy has now trickled down to local new car sales.

Rochester auto dealers begin year with sluggish new-car sales

Sales of new vehicles in the area dropped 17 percent from December to January, the Rochester Automobile Dealers’ Association Inc. reported.
Area dealers sold 1,987 new cars last month, down from 2,394 in December and 2,200 in January 2005.

In terms of volume, local dealers are coming off the worst year in more than a decade.

[Lest you blind Rochesterians think it is like this everywhere read on:

U.S. January auto sales up impressive 7.6%

The auto industry gunned its engines with a 7.6% sales increase in January
How carmakers fared
U.S. sales in January and the change from a year ago:
Jan. sales 1-year change
General Motors 293,131 6.0%
Ford Motor 204,523 1.9%
DaimlerChrysler 167,964 4.8%
Toyota 160,625 14.0%
Honda 98,394 20.7%
Nissan 75,891 -0.9%
Hyundai 30,208 16.1%
Volkswagen 22,721 26.9%
BMW 22,248 12.5%
Source: Autodata


The auto industry overall sold about 1.1 million car and trucks in January, up about 80,000 from the same month last year, Autodata says. "It's one of the best Januaries," says Jesse Toprak, pricing analyst for Edmunds.com.

The month continued a trend from last year of consumers downshifting into cars and smaller vehicles, Autodata figures show. "The compact car segment is on fire," Toprak says.

Toyota's best-ever January, with a 14% increase over 2005, gives the year "a respectable start, with hybrids and fuel-efficient vehicles leading the way," says Jim Press, president of the U.S. division. The automaker has the Toyota, Lexus and Scion brands.

Honda had a 21% increase with its Honda and Acura brands.

As a side note, is it just me or does the entire west side of the city not have a "good neighborhood" minus the 19th ward, which is rapidly digressing (trust me I used to live there)

lyell-otis and dutchtown aren't too bad but they are pretty much the same story as the 19th ward.

Due to the large decline in employment in the Rochester area the poor economy has now trickled down to local new car sales...
While it may be a logical assumption, your article makes no mention of that connection. Plus, why would you want to buy a new car in January, in Rochester (or any other northern climate) anyways? Geez wait until May, when you have a better chance of getting it 5 miles away from the lot without six million dings, sliding into a telephone pole, or getting rear-ended by some jackoff in a 4WD pickup that has no idea how to drive in snow.

While it may be a logical assumption, your article makes no mention of that connection. Plus, why would you want to buy a new car in January, in Rochester (or any other northern climate) anyways? Geez wait until May, when you have a better chance of getting it 5 miles away from the lot without six million dings, sliding into a telephone pole, or getting rear-ended by some jackoff in a 4WD pickup that has no idea how to drive in snow.

1) It was a very mild snow free January.
2) They are comparing January to December and to the prior January not to July.
3) I did a google search and saw articles showing that sales were not only up nationally but they were also up in Detroit, Buffalo, Boston, Minneapolis and Chicago. So your weather argument is off the mark. I only had to look through a few pages of results to convince me that your latest desperate attempt to one again apologize for Rochester is once again off the mark.

Open your eyes.

As long as we are being outrageous and crazy on this forum....let me add fuel to susies fire by showing how a buffalo company is adding to its staff, while everyone in rochester is laid off and everyone leaves, leaving us with a small village of tribal warloards as we digress into the 12th century....(the world according to susie)

Bills add to staff

Alex Van Pelt is going from the radio booth to the coaches' booth for the Buffalo Bills.

The popular backup quarterback, who worked last season as a broadcast analyst, was hired Monday as offensive quality control coach by Dick Jauron. Van Pelt, who played for the Bills from 1995 to 2003, was quarterback coach for the Frankfurt Galaxy of NFL Europe in 2005 and briefly was passing game coordinator for the State University of New York at Buffalo.

Jauron announced two other hirings. Turk Schonert will be the club's quarterback coach, beginning his second stint with the Bills. He held the position from 1998 to 2000 under Wade Phillips. Schonert was with the New Orleans Saints last season.

Charlie Coiner, meanwhile, was named tight ends coach. He was assistant special teams coach for the Chicago Bears during the past two seasons and Jauron's quality control coach from 2001 to 2003 in Chicago.

The Bills are still seeking a linebackers coach.

(Susie there is still time to apply to be the linebackers coach if you want to get out of Rochester soooooo bad!)

Here is another article in follow up to RocGuy's posts.

http://democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060214/NEWS01/602140352

I recently drove to the stadium and the houses around the stadium are is REALLY bad shape. I drove at night though so they probably look worse in the daytime. The place didnt feel unsafe though, it was just dead with absolutely nothing around. The roads have been rehabbed and the new black "fancy" streetlights that are going up everywhere around the city are surrounding the stadium. This is just the beginning, the stadium is the first part of "taking back" the neighborhood from the ghettoness that consumed that area. All they have to do now is to keep pushing the rehab away from the stadium, it will definitely take time, but eventually it will happen.

Here is some census data to compare if you are into it. These are two websites that I like to use for comparison info on cities. I especially like to use the STI resource site section for income. When I visit a city I have never been to I want to find the wealthiest suburb with the nicest restaurants and culture. The color shading on the map under the income section helps you to decipher where the greatest concentration of wealth is. That helps me to decide where the best hotels and amenities are in a city Im visiting.
http://www.ersys.com/
http://www.bestplaces.net/Default.aspx

BTW.....in contrast to Susie's article for car sales, there was a completely opposite article in the D and C three weeks ago. It stated that the Valley Hummer dealership was having the best January ever. In January 2005 they only sold 3 Hummers. In January 2006 they had already sold 25, and that is in a gas for $2.50/gallon economy. Also, I was recently speaking to the Mercedes dealership here and they said that 2005 was a record year for them, selling 50% more Mercedes in 2005 than 2004. Rochester's Mercedes dealership also won a 2005 upstate NY award for most Mercedes sold in the upstate region.

As long as we are being outrageous and crazy on this forum....let me add fuel to susies fire by showing how a buffalo company is adding to its staff, while everyone in rochester is laid off and everyone leaves, leaving us with a small village of tribal warloards as we digress into the 12th century....(the world according to susie)

Bills add to staff

Alex Van Pelt is going from the radio booth to the coaches' booth for the Buffalo Bills.

The popular backup quarterback, who worked last season as a broadcast analyst, was hired Monday as offensive quality control coach by Dick Jauron. Van Pelt, who played for the Bills from 1995 to 2003, was quarterback coach for the Frankfurt Galaxy of NFL Europe in 2005 and briefly was passing game coordinator for the State University of New York at Buffalo.

Jauron announced two other hirings. Turk Schonert will be the club's quarterback coach, beginning his second stint with the Bills. He held the position from 1998 to 2000 under Wade Phillips. Schonert was with the New Orleans Saints last season.

Charlie Coiner, meanwhile, was named tight ends coach. He was assistant special teams coach for the Chicago Bears during the past two seasons and Jauron's quality control coach from 2001 to 2003 in Chicago.

The Bills are still seeking a linebackers coach.

(Susie there is still time to apply to be the linebackers coach if you want to get out of Rochester soooooo bad!)

It's simply putting more distance between the number of jobs they have and the number we have. Maybe one of the new fast food restaurants here in town will hire an offsetting number of workers. I am sure all of the great fast food places opening here pay as well as the Bills do.

BTW I tried out for the coaching postion but they had already hired your girlfriend for it. Apparantly her mustache was the tie breaker.

Here...for all of you who love to dwell on the negative....

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-libudg0214,0,4799242.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines

Nassau sales tax shortfall forces cutbacks

For all of you who don't get out much, Nassau county is on Long Island in the NYC metro area. They have just as many fiscal problems as Rochester and EVERY other city and county in NYS has, and guess what most of the northeast, mid atlantic, and midwest has the same woes. It's called a recession and changing habits. We have been in recession since Idiot Bush took office, and the ignorant morons who live in this country just keep him in office like his economy is a good thing. (I'll stop I dont need to start political ranting.) The whole state is losing business and population and the local governments keep spending on services and salaries like NY state is growing. Where do they think all of the people in Atlanta, Charlotte, and Florida are coming from....the Northeast, midatlantic and midwest! Wow, rocket science. I don't know how to change or fix the problem, except to clean house and start over with new politicians who aren't corrupt. Im a realist and I figure that will NEVER happen so instead I just vote for who I believe is the best and cross my fingers. There is no need to focus on the negative all the time though and whining accomplishes nothing. I'm sure we can find these articles in EVERY newspaper in NYS (and around the country) if we search hard enough. Remember, negative news is like advertising, it sells papers!

I'll be flat out honest right here, I HATE the surroundings of PaeTec Park. Not because I'm afraid of african americans, or latino's who live in the neighborhood (which is the major sticking point with those in the suburbs) but because it is a terrible, terrible, neighborhood, that needs major MAJOR work. Form the road network (traffic from 17,500 suburbanites will be terrible getting to 490, it already gets bad for frontier field on game nights, now they will stretch all the way to lyell) too the surrounding structures, I mean this is in the middle of an "Industrial park" with limited parking within a short walk. It will do well, but I'd also like to see the neighborhood do well also.

As a side note, is it just me or does the entire west side of the city not have a "good neighborhood" minus the 19th ward, which is rapidly digressing (trust me I used to live there)


NW Rochester is in much better shape than SW Rochester. Maplewood is better than the 19th ward. And Charlotte is essentially an extension of Greece (it used to be part of Greece anyways). Whenevever we make the "trek" from Greece to either Webster or Pittsford, where my Aunt and Uncle llive respectively, I always love the drive down Flower City Park, especially right before you cross the Genesee. Basically, the NW and SE are the nice "quadrants" of the city, and the NE and SW are the "bad quadrants". And lol. Yes Blang, I suppose next she will be trying to tell us the reason there wasn't much snow this winter is because the snow clouds don't even want to be in Rochester because they lost their jobs too.

As long as we are being outrageous and crazy on this forum....let me add fuel to susies fire by showing how a buffalo company is adding to its staff, while everyone in rochester is laid off and everyone leaves, leaving us with a small village of tribal warloards as we digress into the 12th century....(the world according to susie)


If yours didn't get to here these items from the past 2 weeks will:

Development will add 75 jobs

Empire State Development has announced a Canadian automotive company plans an expansion in Niagara Falls, N.Y.
Standard Auto Wreckers will locate in a site within the city's Empire zone, creating 75 jobs. The auto parts distribution company, started in 1979, will move into a 170,000-square-foot facility

Northrup Grumman widens Amherst presence

Armed with a new wave of defense industry contracts, the local operations of Northrop Grumman Systems Corp. has decided to expand - almost right across the street from its current headquarters.
Northrop Grumman has signed a long-term lease to occupy 50,000-square-feet of office and high-tech manufacturing space in a Lawrence Bell Drive building in Amherst.
The 83,000-square-foot building, which was acquired by Iskalo Development Corp. in December, is now 100 percent leased with Taiyo Birdair Inc. occupying the remaining 33,000-square-feet.
Northrop Grumman is expected to move its expanded operations into the building later this spring. Amherst Systems will build advanced threat simulator systems for use by the military. The systems consist of Joint Threat Emitter equipment, which has the ability to generate modern threats that will better train pilots. Amherst Systems employs more than 400 workers locally
"We're pleased to be able to accommodate a very specific need for a company that continues to grow its Western New York presence and create jobs locally," said Paul Iskalo, president and founder of the Amherst-based Iskalo Development Corp.

First Niagara placing 200 jobs in Buffalo

First Niagara Bank has announced it will set up a regional market center in Buffalo, bringing together 200 workers.
At the Larking at Exchange Building, First Niagara has agreed to lease 60,000 square feet on the structure's ninth floor

Wells Fargo comes to Amherst

Wells Fargo & Co. has opened a regional commercial banking office in Amherst.
The office, which targets middle-market commercial companies with annual revenues exceeding $10 million, is temporarily at 150 Essjay Road in Williamsville, and will move to 6400 Sheridan Drive in the next two to three months.
The four-member staff is expected to expand to 12 to 15 within two years.
San Francisco-based Wells Fargo, whose name is synonymous with the American Old West and stagecoaches, was co-founded in 1852 by William Fargo, a former Buffalo mayor.

New Era deal moves forward

Another piece of the economic-incentive package is coming together for New Era Cap Co.'s plans to move its headquarters to downtown Buffalo.
The Erie County Industrial Development Agency has set a March 7 public hearing to consider a $12 million inducement package that New Era needs to move its corporate and administrative headquarters from Derby to the former Federal Reserve Building on Delaware Avenue. The hearing will be held at the ECIDA's offices, 275 Oak St. in Buffalo. The hearing will begin at 9 a.m.
The ECIDA hearing comes one week after New Era officially filed a proposal with the Buffalo Planning Board to review the project. The planning board will consider it during its Feb. 14 meeting.
New Era, a Buffalo-born company best known for manufacturing baseball caps, began its search for new offices last summer. The company's Derby headquarters and manufacturing base is cramped and out of space, officials said.
With the new deal, New Era also expects to add more manufacturing jobs in Derby.
The Delaware Avenue facility will not only serve as New Era's administrative headquarters, it will also house a baseball cap museum, featuring hats dating back to the company's earliest days one century ago

Ford, Goodyear Dunlop among 4 to receive Niagara power

The New York Power Authority trustees Tuesday approved low-cost hydropower allocations from the Niagara Project for four Western New York manufacturers.
The new allocations, for up to 6 megawatts of power, are for Goodyear Dunlop Tires North America Ltd. and FMC Corp., both of Tonawanda; Ford Motor Co.'s Woodlawn stamping plant; and Allegheny Technologies Inc., of Lockport.
The NYPA said the allocations will create some 70 jobs while protecting more than 3,300.
• Goodyear Dunlop, with a current workforce of 1,400, will receive a 1-megawatt allocation. The company plans a $19 million investment that will see 17 jobs created and the addition of 7,800 square feet of additional manufacturing space, plus equipment purchases.
• Chemical manufacturer FMC plans a $3 million capital project, and was awarded an allocation of 2.5 megawatts. The company is relocating a microbiology laboratory from New Jersey and a hair-care blending operation from Arizona as part of a multi-phase expansion of its Tonawanda facility that will add 25 jobs. The company employs 142 workers locally.
• Ford's Buffalo stamping plant, which employs approximately 1,550, will receive 1.5 megawatts of hydropower. The company plans $215 million in facility upgrades.
• Allegheny Technologies is to receive 1 megawatt of power. The Pittsburgh-based company, which manufactures specialty steel ingots, employs 55 locally. A $9.5 million upgrade at the Lockport facility involving machinery and equipment will create 11 jobs.


Electric Tower plugs in first tenant

A Canadian consulting firm has become the first company to lease space in the revamped Electric Tower in downtown Buffalo.
Stantec has agreed to lease 9,000-square-feet in the historic central business district building, consolidating offices it has in Amherst and along Buffalo's waterfront.
"We selected the Electric Tower because the building strikes a nice balance between historical architecture and modern building amenities," said Mark Lang, Stantec regional vice president.
Stantec handles a number of design and consulting services for the planning, architecture, engineering and surveying fields.
The circa 1912 building was acquired in early 2004 by Iskalo Development Co.
"Stantec represents the type of Class A tenant that we are looking to attract to our property," said Paul Iskalo, head of the development company.

List shortens for city casino design

The short list of architectural firms who may be selected to design the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino has just gotten shorter.
With a Jan. 20 deadline passed for seven firms to offer design services for the planned 100,000-square-foot Cobblestone District casino, five of the seven submitted preliminary design and costs estimates to the Seneca Gaming Corp., the casino operations arm of the Seneca Nation of Indians.
The five were a mix between local and national firms, said Phil Pantano, Seneca Gaming Corp. spokesman.
Originally, Seneca Gaming Corp. wanted to have a firm selected by Jan. 31, but now that deadline might not be as firm.
"We will take our time in the selection process to make sure the design meets with the Seneca Nation of Indians vision for the Buffalo casino," Pantano said. "We are going to let the process dictate the time table and not the other way around."
The 13-page RFP went out to the seven selected firms in mid-December, just a week after the Seneca Gaming Corp. began demolishing some properties in the nine-acre parcel it acquired along South Park Avenue. Undecided, at this time, is the fate of the circa 1912 H&O Oats grain mill.
Seneca officials said until all the design options are considered, it is not known if the long-vacant grain mill will be kept or demolished.

The Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino, which is expected to open by late 2007, will create more than 1,000 new jobs and deliver between $5 million and $7 million annually for cash-starved Buffalo.

It is part of a larger development puzzle that includes a potential Bass Pro store in Memorial Auditorium and a re-developed inner harbor area along with HSBC Arena. The 100,000-square-foot casino could potentially house 2,200 slot machines, 50 gaming tables, two restaurants and 2,500-vehicle parking ramp.
The casino is the third and last one the Seneca Nation of Indians can build in the region, based on a 2002 compact it signed with New York state. The Seneca Niagara Casino & Hotel in Niagara Falls attracts more than 6 million people on an annual basis while the Seneca Allegany Casino in Salamanca attracted more than two million people in its first year of operation.

Rochester 35th hottest city for corporate expansions

By Ben Rand
Staff writer

(February 14, 2006) — Monroe County’s push to redevelop its economy is getting a pat on the back from a trade magazine that caters to corporate relocation and economic development officials.

Greater Rochester was named as the 35th hottest city in the country for corporate expansions and relocations, according to an annual survey by Expansion Management magazine. That’s a jump of 15 slots over the 2005 list.

The single-year surge “is a testament to all of the hard work and dedication that economic developers throughout the Rochester region have done over the past 12 months,” said Dennis Mullen, president and chief executive of Greater Rochester Enterprise (GRE), a privately led organization focused on revitalizing the local economy. He added: “We believe that with more aggressive marketing, we can climb even higher.”

Expansion Management surveyed more than 80 site-selection consultants to find out which of the nation’s more than 360 metropolitan statistical areas are most attractive to their clients.

Tops nationwide was Nashville, Tenn. Expansion Management said that Nashville has raised “business attraction to an art form.”

Rochester is joined on the list with both Buffalo and Syracuse, which rank 43rd and 44th. There are no other New York cities on the list.

...Rochester is joined on the list with both Buffalo and Syracuse, which rank 43rd and 44th. There are no other New York cities on the list.
Impressive. Although the only other city I might expect on that list would be NYC. But maybe nobody's expanding there simply because they already are there? Kind of disclaims those "upstate becoming economic backwater" attitudes, especially since I would imagine CA alone would probably have 10 cities on the list ahead of us?

------
1) It was a very mild snow free January.
2) They are comparing January to December and to the prior January not to July.
3) I did a google search and saw articles showing that sales were not only up nationally but they were also up in Detroit, Buffalo, Boston, Minneapolis and Chicago. So your weather argument is off the mark. I only had to look through a few pages of results to convince me that your latest desperate attempt to one again apologize for Rochester is once again off the mark.

Open your eyes.
Talk about desparate. I was talking winters in general. And nowhere did I mention July. What I was saying was that I would not buy a car in any winter, at least as long as I lived north of the Mason-Dixon line. Yes, this particular winter has been mild, but that's simply an abberation. I'm sure people in Rochester who share my attitude towards winter car purchasing are just all kicking themselves now that they didn't take advantage of that reprieve. I mean, they would have had a whole 2-3 weeks to drive around scott-free without all the winter "hazards" that I mentioned. So you might get a couple hundred miles from the dealership before the greater probability of a mishap. Good for you.

I also notice you quote Buffalo and Detroit with the likes of Boston, Mpls, and Chicago in the car sales. Maybe it's just me, but I always thought those latter three were doing quite well economically? Should I be surprised they showed an uptick consistent or perhaps better than the national avg?

As if I care about new car sales anyways. I'm (knock-on-wood) on relatively solid ground financially, yet I have no intent on buying any new vehicle until my current one falls into a pile of scrap metal in the middle of the street. But that's just me. And while it wouldn't be great for my local economy, if Fuccillo, West Herr, Northtown, Lia, Mike Barney, Paddock, et al. all went out of business, whoa, TV and radio would instantly de-cheapen. Then we could go after all those obnoxious, embarassing personal injury ad wars (a completely different story). Maybe William Mattar will then get injured in a January cahr. We should dream.

Call me desperate all you want. But I think it's scraping the barrel that you're duplicating half of the Buffalo development thread just to belittle your own city. That's not desperate, it's pathetic.

Don't forget Jim Ball....GM's resale GIANT! Jim Ball has it all (wow they play that commercial to much during buffalo bills football season!)

:tongue: everyone is so angry.

must be cuz its valetines day.

Rochester 35th hottest city for corporate expansions

By Ben Rand
Staff writer

(February 14, 2006) — Monroe County’s push to redevelop its economy is getting a pat on the back from a trade magazine that caters to corporate relocation and economic development officials.

Greater Rochester was named as the 35th hottest city in the country for corporate expansions and relocations, according to an annual survey by Expansion Management magazine. That’s a jump of 15 slots over the 2005 list.

The single-year surge “is a testament to all of the hard work and dedication that economic developers throughout the Rochester region have done over the past 12 months,” said Dennis Mullen, president and chief executive of Greater Rochester Enterprise (GRE), a privately led organization focused on revitalizing the local economy. He added: “We believe that with more aggressive marketing, we can climb even higher.”

Expansion Management surveyed more than 80 site-selection consultants to find out which of the nation’s more than 360 metropolitan statistical areas are most attractive to their clients.

Tops nationwide was Nashville, Tenn. Expansion Management said that Nashville has raised “business attraction to an art form.”

Rochester is joined on the list with both Buffalo and Syracuse, which rank 43rd and 44th. There are no other New York cities on the list.

Darnet you beat me to it. lol. This was also published on the US development news about a week ago.

i'm just too quick!

Rochester 35th hottest city for corporate expansions

By Ben Rand
Staff writer

(February 14, 2006) — Monroe County’s push to redevelop its economy is getting a pat on the back from a trade magazine that caters to corporate relocation and economic development officials.

Greater Rochester was named as the 35th hottest city in the country for corporate expansions and relocations, according to an annual survey by Expansion Management magazine. That’s a jump of 15 slots over the 2005 list.

The single-year surge “is a testament to all of the hard work and dedication that economic developers throughout the Rochester region have done over the past 12 months,” said Dennis Mullen, president and chief executive of Greater Rochester Enterprise (GRE), a privately led organization focused on revitalizing the local economy. He added: “We believe that with more aggressive marketing, we can climb even higher.”

Expansion Management surveyed more than 80 site-selection consultants to find out which of the nation’s more than 360 metropolitan statistical areas are most attractive to their clients.

Tops nationwide was Nashville, Tenn. Expansion Management said that Nashville has raised “business attraction to an art form.”

Rochester is joined on the list with both Buffalo and Syracuse, which rank 43rd and 44th. There are no other New York cities on the list.

Our office was contacted about this survey but as is our company policy we did not participate.

Read the thread on this on the US threads of this forum and you will see that unfortuantely the survey is based entirely on the perception of less than 80 people with absolutely zero statistics to back it up. Go to the magazines web site and they will explain that it is entirely subjective.

This is nothing to get excited about as it will not translate into economic expansion.

Still isn't it better to be on the list than not?

see below

Still isn't it better to be on the list than not?

Sure for bragging rights, but if you look at the list you will see that there are many booming cities not on the list and many cities hurting economically that are on the list. Buffalo has been on the list for the last 7 or 8 years and Rochester has been on it before too. I still don't see developers tripping over themselves to set up shop in either place, do you? My home town has never been on the list but it is booming. It has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the entire country and the population is exploding. But it has never made the top 50 from this magazine.

On the contrary...nothing is better than your peers opinion. When a panel of the top peers of any industry is contacted and they give their opinion that Rochester, NY moved up 15 slots in one year that means that your city is making some headway.

Here's some proof: Did you know that in the last year Frito Lay (HQ in Texas)opened up a distribution facility in Henrietta for the entire Northeast, and employs 80 people in Rochester now.

And in the RBJ last week I learned that in 2004 Staples (HQ in Boston) opened up a Northeast distribution facility in Henrietta. It employs 150 people and the manager of the facility was recently promoted to VP of Northeastern operations for Staples, he resides in Pittsford, is young and plans to stay and grow the facility to be a hub for Staples.

Coopervision is expanding their site in Henrietta and adding jobs.
http://rnews.com/Story_2004.cfm?ID=27963&rnews_story_type=51&category=10

This was an article yestreday in Expansion Management magazine, not in any of our local papers: Nationwide Precision Products to Expand Upstate New York Plant in Henrietta, NY
http://www.expansionmanagement.com/smo/articleviewer/default.asp?cmd=articledetail&articleid=17096&st=5

Heres the link for the magazine:
http://www.expansionmanagement.com/

and here is the list:

1. Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro, Tenn. MSA
2. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, Ariz. MSA
3. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, Ga. MSA
4. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, Texas MSA
5. San Antonio, Texas MSA
6. Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, N.C.-S.C.
7. Memphis, Tenn.-Miss.-Ark. MSA
8. Jacksonville, Fla. MSA
9. Knoxville, Tenn. MSA
10. Birmingham-Hoover, Ala. MSA
11. Tucson, Ariz. MSA
Tulsa, Okla. MSA
13. Denver-Aurora, Colo. MSA
Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, Fla. MSA
15. Richmond, Va. MSA
16. Raleigh-Cary, N.C. MSA
17. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, Wash. MSA
18. Austin-Round Rock, Texas MSA
19. Houston-Baytown-Sugar Land, Texas MSA
20. Kansas City, Mo.-Kan. MSA
21. Albuquerque, N.M. MSA
22. Huntsville, Ala. MSA
23. Oklahoma City, Okla. MSA
24. Pittsburgh, Pa. MSA
25. Charleston-North Charleston, S.C. MSA
26. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Miami Beach, Fla. MSA
27. Indianapolis, Ind. MSA
28. Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, Ill.-Ind.-Wis. MSA
29. Columbus, Ohio MSA
30. Longview, Texas MSA
31. Louisville, Ky.-Ind. MSA
32. Colorado Springs, Colo. MSA
33. Cincinnati-Middletown, Ohio-Ky.-Ind. MSA
34. Winston-Salem, N.C. MSA
35. Rochester, N.Y. MSA
36. Omaha-Council Bluffs, Neb.-Iowa MSA
37. Mobile, Ala. MSA
38. Des Moines, Iowa MSA
39. Reno-Sparks, Nev. MSA
40. Boise City-Nampa, Idaho
Orlando, Fla. MSA
42. Jackson, Tenn. MSA
43. Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Tonawanda, N.Y. MSA
44. Syracuse, N.Y. MSA
45. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, Pa.-N.J.-Del.-Md. MSA
46. Greenville, S.C. MSA
47. Greensboro-High Point, N.C. MSA
48. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, D.C.-Md.-Va.-W.Va. MSA
49. Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, Ore.-Wash. MSA
Salt Lake City, Utah MSA

While most of these companies provide jobs that I would rather eat my arm than take, this gives all of the blue collar Kodak and Xerox ee's being laid off some options. They can stick tab A in slot B at these places! I'd manage one of these facilities though. Susie these companies sound right up your families alley...Im looking out for u!

If people want we can start posting these hiring bulletins more often they seem to run weekly in the Rochester publications. If you ask me their boring though...how can people complain there are no jobs, there may be no jobs that you actually want advertised, but there are thousands of jobs available. High paying interesting jobs are usually harder to find, they are typically filled by word of mouth by referral and are on a companies website. i.e. Harris RF Communications is looking for 20 engineers right now all paying $80,000-$100,000 a year and Bausch and Lomb needs a VP of Communications paying $150,000 a year, you dont put that kind of position on Monster or the D and C. Here's some job info:
http://rochesterbusinessjournal.com/fullarticle.cfm?sdid=59075

On the contrary...nothing is better than your peers opinion.

I am not wrong on this survey. You are now treading in my territory, my profession. I don't wish to sound arrogant but when it comes to this particular survey I know what I am talking about. It is based ONLY on opinion. I am also sorry to say that Rochester is currently enduring one of the weakest economies of any metro in the United States. I wish it was not so, if it was doing better it would mean more business for my firm.

The truth is that last year we had more than 4 times as much activity for firms interested in the Richmond VA area as we did for the Rochester area and both are relatively the same size. We had almost twice as many inquires about Buffalo and Syacuse than we did about Rochester. Buffalo, Rochester, Syacuse, Albany, Erie, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Akron and Wheeling constitute the main players in my region. Of these only Erie, Akron and Wheeling has less activity with our clients than Rochester in 2005 and they are of course much smaller. This is anecdotal to be sure as we are only one firm, but then again we are in the top three nationally so I think there is some relevance.

Is Chicago really "booming" or "exploding in population" I mean sure, it's doing really well, but I think your above comment was a bit of an exaggeration.

Is Chicago really "booming" or "exploding in population" I mean sure, it's doing really well, but I think your above comment was a bit of an exaggeration.

Chicago is not booming, it is also not my hometown, it is where I currently live. Actually Cook County has lost almost 50,000 since the last census.

My hometown is Charlottesville, Va. and I was just there for Christmas, it is booming and exploding in population. Especially Albermarle County.

If yours didn't get to here these items from the past 2 weeks will:

Development will add 75 jobs

Empire State Development has announced a Canadian automotive company

Did you think these would surprise me, I know everyone is doing better than us. I just looked at your thread and I saw all kinds of major projects posted just today.

...My hometown is Charlottesville, Va. and I was just there for Christmas, it is booming and exploding in population. Especially Albermarle County.
That, I would agree with. Aren't they the fastest growing city in the US? I also saw they were ranked #1 on some major "best places to live" survey. I actually considered moving there last year (about as far south as I can tolerate) but would you believe I couldn't find any jobs in the listings.

I am not wrong on this survey. You are now treading in my territory, my profession. I don't wish to sound arrogant but when it comes to this particular survey I know what I am talking about. It is based ONLY on opinion. I am also sorry to say that Rochester is currently enduring one of the weakest economies of any metro in the United States. I wish it was not so, if it was doing better it would mean more business for my firm.

The truth is that last year we had more than 4 times as much activity for firms interested in the Richmond VA area as we did for the Rochester area and both are relatively the same size. We had almost twice as many inquires about Buffalo and Syacuse than we did about Rochester. Buffalo, Rochester, Syacuse, Albany, Erie, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Akron and Wheeling constitute the main players in my region. Of these only Erie, Akron and Wheeling has less activity with our clients than Rochester in 2005 and they are of course much smaller. This is anecdotal to be sure as we are only one firm, but then again we are in the top three nationally so I think there is some relevance.

Eventhough the survey doesn't have an stats to back it up or any real link to economic growth...if it is pure perception, isn't it good to be higher up on the list and atleast be perceived favorably? that's gotta count for something.

Chicago is not booming, it is also not my hometown, it is where I currently live. Actually Cook County has lost almost 50,000 since the last census.


Ahhhh...this is news to me.

Ahhhh...this is news to me.

My pleasure to provide you with news.

From www.census.gov

Geographic Area 1-Jul-04 1-Jul-03 1-Jul-02 1-Jul-01 1-Jul-00 Census 2000

Cook County, IL 5,327,777 5,347,614 5,364,160 5,378,567 5,377,467 5,376,741


Census 2000 population 5,376,741 Census 2004 estimate 5,327,777 net decline 48,964 Actually if you look only at the last three years the net decline is 50,790. Current unemployment rate 5.5% which is above the national average.

Eventhough the survey doesn't have an stats to back it up or any real link to economic growth...if it is pure perception, isn't it good to be higher up on the list and atleast be perceived favorably? that's gotta count for something.

Sure, as I said earlier it is something a region can use for bragging rights. Other than that it's effect is nil.

That, I would agree with. Aren't they the fastest growing city in the US? I also saw they were ranked #1 on some major "best places to live" survey. I actually considered moving there last year (about as far south as I can tolerate) but would you believe I couldn't find any jobs in the listings.

Not the fastest growing city in the country by a long shot, Charlottesville proper has actually declined by 1,216 since census 2000 to a total of 45,049. The surrounding counties have grown by a very healthy percentage during that same time frame. The total metro for the city and four surrounding counties has increased from 183,942 in 2000 to an estimated 191,169. A healthy growth rate of 3.9%.

I love the city but it is still very small and isolated. Unless you are connected to UVA there is not a lot going on there. Even with the growth it is still a one horse town. one major employer UVA and one major commercial district Rte 29.

Plus it is becoming very expensive to live there. One of my friends lives in the City proper in a 2 bed 1 bath 900 square foot ranch home on a small lot built in the early 1950's. Her property tax bill for last year was $2,900 and does not include garbage pickup which cost her and additional $150.00 per quarter. Ten years ago her property tax was only $600.00. Same thing for my parents in Albermarle they have gone from $500.00 when they bought the house in 1991 to $3,000.00 today for a 3BR raised ranch. This also does not include garbage fees of about $500.00 per year or homeowners association fees of $125.00 per quarter.

You probably made a wise decision in not moving there. I know, I left.

You are now treading in my territory, my profession. I don't wish to sound arrogant but when it comes to this particular survey I know what I am talking about. It is based ONLY on opinion.

Don, economic development expert, what do you think Rochester needs to do then to increase the flow of business to the region?

Thanks

I feel the relocation honor is a step in the right direction. Rochester has always faced the issue of being unknown. Rochester is not located on the thruway, where all of the other upstate cities have the thruway running right through them. Because Rochester is 15 miles from the thruway, the three Rochester exits make us look like we are some small town with NOTHING located near the exits. Buffalo is known because of the Bills and Sabres, Syracuse is known for the University, and Albany is known because it is the capital on NY, but Rochester has nothing of national fame. To back this up, in the past year I went to Pittsburgh (4 hrs away) and Cleveland (3 hrs away). I went to malls and restaurants in both of these cities and I must have looked like I didnt belong in those cities, because employees asked where I was from. I told them Rochester and NO ONE KNEW WHERE ROCHESTER WAS? After I said about 1 hour east of Buffalo, they could picture where we are located. These are relatively close cities, so either the populations of these cities are truly ignorant, or we have never marketed Rochester very well. So if we made some list of recognition, then that is a feat in itself.

In June 2005 the Urban Land Institute (ULI) was paid to come and evaluate downtown Rochester and what should be done to revitalize the area around Midtown/Sibley Centre. The Land Institute experts spent 1 week here. They toured all of the Greater Rochester area for 6 days, city, suburbs, and interviewed the population to gauge the type of people that live in the MSA. The final day they held a meeting to speak of their findings and their opinions about Rochester. The ULI panel consisted of business and real estate execs form all over the country. I attended the meeting. The panel started the discussion by saying all of them had never heard of or been to Rochester before. They wanted everyone to know that Rochester is a beautiful city, one of the best they have ever done one of their studies for. It has some problems, but nothing more than many other cities and is actually faring much better then some of the places they have been. One of the panel members from Houston even expressed interest that he wanted to buy Sibley Centre and turn it into loft apartments. Every panel member said they would love to return here for a vacation with their family. When specialists on cities don't even know about Rochester, that means that real estate execs arent going to inquire as much about property either, donbuy. If the area was marketed properly, that will only help to bring jobs and growing commercialism. I think that someone is finally getting the word out about our area.

Here's the ULI homepage:
http://www.uli.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

You can do a search in the upper left corner for Rochester, NY and find articles in relation to the ULI visit.

Don, economic development expert, what do you think Rochester needs to do then to increase the flow of business to the region?

Thanks

First the job bleeding must stop. The bottom must be hit so service industries can see what the potential client base is. Service companies look closely at employment trends over a 3-5 year period when comparing one market to another. This is where many of the companies considering Rochester drop out.

Long term the solution is simple but I doubt that the will is there: Local and school property taxes MUST be cut dramatically. Workers comp costs MUST be cut dramatically. Unemployment benefits for striking workers MUST be cut completely. Energy costs MUST be cut dramatically.

The only way Rochester can compete with it's peers is by having lower (or at least competitive) cost structure. Rochester has no competitive geographic (or weather) advantages over any of it's peer cities. It is not a transportation hub, nor is it an international gateway, two areas that are starting to work in Buffalo's favor.

It does posess an educated workforce but not one that is unique nationwide. Then there is the problem of perception, many so called high tech firms prefer to locate in larger more glamourous areas of the country. Rochester cannot come close to competeing with Seattle or the Bay Area for these types of jobs on a lifestyle basis. It must do so on a cost basis, but it's costs are extremely high. While you might be marginally cheaper than a Seattle or SF, companies that would choose them would not locate in Rochester anyway - because of the aforementioned lifestyle issues. You are in competition with places like Richmond and Nashville whose costs are well under yours. So it boils down to needing a great reduction in costs and regulations as well.

First the job bleeding must stop. The bottom must be hit so service industries can see what the potential client base is. Service companies look closely at employment trends over a 3-5 year period when comparing one market to another. This is where many of the companies considering Rochester drop out.

Long term the solution is simple but I doubt that the will is there: Local and school property taxes MUST be cut dramatically. Workers comp costs MUST be cut dramatically. Unemployment benefits for striking workers MUST be cut completely. Energy costs MUST be cut dramatically.

The only way Rochester can compete with it's peers is by having lower (or at least competitive) cost structure. Rochester has no competitive geographic (or weather) advantages over any of it's peer cities. It is not a transportation hub, nor is it an international gateway, two areas that are starting to work in Buffalo's favor.

It does posess an educated workforce but not one that is unique nationwide. Then there is the problem of perception, many so called high tech firms prefer to locate in larger more glamourous areas of the country. Rochester cannot come close to competeing with Seattle or the Bay Area for these types of jobs on a lifestyle basis. It must do so on a cost basis, but it's costs are extremely high. While you might be marginally cheaper than a Seattle or SF, companies that would choose them would not locate in Rochester anyway - because of the aforementioned lifestyle issues. You are in competition with places like Richmond and Nashville whose costs are well under yours. So it boils down to needing a great reduction in costs and regulations as well.

yep, Taxes...it all starts there.

First the job bleeding must stop. The bottom must be hit so service industries can see what the potential client base is. Service companies look closely at employment trends over a 3-5 year period when comparing one market to another. This is where many of the companies considering Rochester drop out.
The Rochester economy is "in shock" because the Kodak and Xerox layoffs over the last 3-5 years. Nobody knows when that will stop and whether the job losses will be absorbed. So, chain stores looking to locate in that kind of market have to take risks. It sounds like those are the types of establishments that you are talking about, that would compare one market to another.

Long term the solution is simple but I doubt that the will is there: Local and school property taxes MUST be cut dramatically. Workers comp costs MUST be cut dramatically. Unemployment benefits for striking workers MUST be cut completely. Energy costs MUST be cut dramatically.
What about price vs. quality? The City of Rochester and its suburbs have 4 public high schools in the top 100 of the nation (US News & World Report). It takes high taxes to run great schools. The places with lower taxes are usually places with poor education systems. For example, Las Vegas and Charlotte, NC.

As for regulations, it seems that those laws were created during the hey-day of manufacturing. They should definitely be reconsidered.


The only way Rochester can compete with it's peers is by having lower (or at least competitive) cost structure. Rochester has no competitive geographic (or weather) advantages over any of it's peer cities. It is not a transportation hub, nor is it an international gateway, two areas that are starting to work in Buffalo's favor.

It does posess an educated workforce but not one that is unique nationwide. Then there is the problem of perception, many so called high tech firms prefer to locate in larger more glamourous areas of the country. Rochester cannot come close to competeing with Seattle or the Bay Area for these types of jobs on a lifestyle basis. It must do so on a cost basis, but it's costs are extremely high. While you might be marginally cheaper than a Seattle or SF, companies that would choose them would not locate in Rochester anyway - because of the aforementioned lifestyle issues. You are in competition with places like Richmond and Nashville whose costs are well under yours. So it boils down to needing a great reduction in costs and regulations as well.

Cost advantage: Really cheap rent. Doesn't that offset taxes? I'm paying 3-4 times less that what I would pay for an apartment in New York City. Entrepreneurs like me need cheap rent in the early, shoe-string budget start-up days.

The Rochester economy is "in shock" because the Kodak and Xerox layoffs over the last 3-5 years. Nobody knows when that will stop and whether the job losses will be absorbed. So, chain stores looking to locate in that kind of market have to take risks. It sounds like those are the types of establishments that you are talking about, that would compare one market to another.

Yes those that drop out for this reason tend to be service/rest./retail.

What about price vs. quality? The City of Rochester and its suburbs have 4 public high schools in the top 100 of the nation (US News & World Report). It takes high taxes to run great schools. The places with lower taxes are usually places with poor education systems. For example, Las Vegas and Charlotte, NC.

Bottom line on this one is that the people making the decision do not care, they will not be sending there kids to school there. They are going to hire locals that are used to whatever school system is in place. It's a feel good way for your politicians to try and explain away the outrageous local school taxes. It does not fly with site selectors. BTW that list also has plenty of schools on it that are in low cost states such as Florida which has almost no property taxes.

As for regulations, it seems that those laws were created during the hey-day of manufacturing. They should definitely be reconsidered.

Onerous, as they are now. This is the largest non tax problem you face. Very un-business friendly. New business do not care about why NY has all the regs it does they just go elsewhere, they have no loyalty to Rochester or NY. If you want to compete you must change.


Cost advantage: Really cheap rent. Doesn't that offset taxes? I'm paying 3-4 times less that what I would pay for an apartment in New York City. Entrepreneurs like me need cheap rent in the early, shoe-string budget start-up days

Your commercial rents are not significantly cheaper than peer cities and your total occupancy costs are much much higher than most.

Bottom line is if Rochester (and all of NY) keeps doing the same things you will keep getting the same results, i.e. fewer jobs. And unless it is addressed promptly it will snowball.

Hello, sorry to interupt the roll that you guys are on right now, but I just wanted to announce that I am currently interviewing for multiple jobs. While some of you may be excited let me follow that with the fact that they are all in Charlotte, NC. I most likely will be moving there this summer for good. As much as I love Rochester, I can not continue to live here, for reasons such as depressing news day after day, lack of sunshine, incredibly high taxes, and lack of jobs that I would like to be involved in.

After months of debate and research. My signifigant other and myself have decided that it would be in our best interest to relocate to the Charlotte area, because my love for Charlotte is second only to my love for Rochester. My family used to spend summer in Charlotte when we had an office there.

While some of you may be dissapointed the facts are simple, lower taxes, similar quality of life, and more opportunities.

As of yet it is not official, I haven't bought a house or taken any specific job yet, but I expect in the next month or so to make it official.

I'll keep you all updated!

Hello, sorry to interupt the roll that you guys are on right now, but I just wanted to announce that I am currently interviewing for multiple jobs. While some of you may be excited let me follow that with the fact that they are all in Charlotte, NC. I most likely will be moving there this summer for good. As much as I love Rochester, I can not continue to live here, for reasons such as depressing news day after day, lack of sunshine, incredibly high taxes, and lack of jobs that I would like to be involved in.

After months of debate and research. My signifigant other and myself have decided that it would be in our best interest to relocate to the Charlotte area, because my love for Charlotte is second only to my love for Rochester. My family used to spend summer in Charlotte when we had an office there.

While some of you may be dissapointed the facts are simple, lower taxes, similar quality of life, and more opportunities.

As of yet it is not official, I haven't bought a house or taken any specific job yet, but I expect in the next month or so to make it official.

I'll keep you all updated!


I am very sorry to hear that, best of luck to you.

^^ Unfortunetly, everything you said there is true. Well, except for the quality of life thing, that's all subjective, but personally, the community of Rochester is what makes the quality of life more appealing there to me. The warmer weather of Charlotte and it's "newsess" is probably what suits you. Anyways, Jazz asked a while ago for Don's take on what Rochester should do to improve it's economy. Interestingly enough, there was an article in the paper today with advice from another expert. Sounds like sound advice to me
Although I do have to argue one point with Donbuy, you said, in sort of condescending ineuendo, that Rochester had an eduacted workforce, but not much better than it's "peer cities". I don't know what you would consider Rochester's "peer cities" But the area has the 11th most educated population in the nation... beating out Boston, New York, San Diego, Atlanta, and plenty others. The only cities it's size that are ranked higher than it are Richmond VA and OKC... http://www.neweconomyindex.org/metro/part1_page2.html

Rank Metro Area Score
1 Washington 0.74
2 San Francisco 0.69
3 Denver 0.68
4 Minneapolis 0.68
5 Austin 0.67
6 Raleigh-Durham 0.66
7 Richmond 0.65
8 Houston 0.65
9 Seattle 0.64
10 Oklahoma City 0.64
11 Rochester 0.64
12 San Diego 0.63
13 Boston 0.63
14 New York 0.63
15 Sacramento 0.63
16 Salt Lake City 0.62
17 Norfolk 0.62
18 Buffalo 0.62
19 Cincinnati 0.61
20 Charlotte 0.61
21 Portland 0.61
22 Dayton 0.61
23 Philadelphia 0.60
24 Atlanta 0.60
25 Nashville 0.60
26 Cleveland 0.60
27 Columbus 0.59
28 Hartford 0.58
29 Pittsburgh 0.58
30 Detroit 0.58
31 Dallas 0.57
32 Milwaukee 0.56
33 Indianapolis 0.55
34 Las Vegas 0.55
35 St. Louis 0.54
36 Chicago 0.53
37 Louisville 0.53
38 Miami 0.53
39 Jacksonville 0.53
40 New Orleans 0.53
41 Memphis 0.53
42 Kansas City 0.52
43 Phoenix 0.52
44 Orlando 0.50
45 West Palm Beach 0.49
46 Greensboro 0.48
47 Tampa 0.46
48 Grand Rapids 0.45
49 San Antonio 0.44
50 Los Angeles 0.44
U.S. Average 0.48
Top 50 Metro Average 0.59



Anyways, here is another expert's advice on how Rochester can improve it's economy. It also points out something that all those who doom the area seem to realize, it does have a shitload of assets, just moslty underutilyzed ones. That's kind of the gentleman's point.


Expert urges fast action on optics


Area must develop its assets to maintain an edge, add new jobs


David Tyler
Staff writer


(February 16, 2006) — Rochester has the tools to be even more of a world leader in photonics but must move quickly to capitalize on its advantages, a pioneer in optics said Wednesday.

Robert Breault, a founder and co-chairman of the Tucson-based Arizona Optics Industry Association and also chairman of his own Breault Research Organization Inc., said Rochester's optics prestige and talent give it a huge edge in competitiveness in optics fields. But he said the region needs to boost efforts to back entrepreneurship to create jobs and keep that edge.

"It's as if you have diamonds and fist-sized nuggets of gold just lying in the ground here," Breault said in an interview before he addressed the annual meeting of the Rochester Regional Photonics Cluster Wednesday night. "It would be a shame if people elsewhere picked them up instead of you."

Breault has been a vocal proponent of the "cluster" model of economic development, which encourages the development of businesses grouped around a particular technology or field. He's helped to organize other photonics clusters around the world, and the Rochester Regional Photonics Cluster relied on his advice when it formed in 2000.

Breault said development officials here should place their faith in smaller companies to help the economy grow. For example, Tucson's cluster has 300 optics member companies. Their average size? Seven employees.

"If one goes out of business, life goes on in Tucson," he said.

In order to speed the pace of job creation, area universities should push relentlessly to get technologies developed on their campuses spun out into the business world, Breault said.

"Pay to do it if you have to," he said.

The Arizona cluster has worked hard to leverage its relationships with larger employers such as Raytheon, said Breault. Rochester's smaller optics and photonics businesses should also explore those options.

The Rochester cluster has about 110 member companies, but the area also has huge companies such as Eastman Kodak Co., Xerox Corp., Bausch & Lomb Inc. and Corning Inc.

Small and medium-sized companies should make cases to those companies about how they can work together, Breault said.

"I don't think there's enough of that here," he said.

^^ Although I do have to argue one point with Donbuy, you said, in sort of condescending ineuendo, that Rochester had an eduacted workforce, but not much better than it's "peer cities". I don't know what you would consider Rochester's "peer cities" But the area has the 11th most educated population in the nation... beating out Boston, New York, San Diego, Atlanta, and plenty others. The only cities it's size that are ranked higher than it are Richmond VA and OKC...

I think it is safe to consider any city within 10% either side of Rochester's score as statisticall insignificant. Is there really a difference between a .64 and a .60? Nahhh. So educationally speaking the top 31 cities in your list are in the same ballpark. Look at those 31 and you will see most of the cities that routinely win out over Rochester in business expansions.

As an aside if you thought my remarks were condesending you are indeed the most insecure thin skinned person on all of the ssc sites.

RocGuy, I think donbuy is talking about chain restaurants & other service companies looking to add a location to their roster.. What Rochester needs to attract is companies who provide services to the global community, employing intelligent professionals w/o the expense of a big city like NYC, Boston or SF

RocGuy, I think donbuy is talking about chain restaurants & other service companies looking to add a location to their roster.. What Rochester needs to attract is companies who provide services to the global community, employing intelligent professionals w/o the expense of a big city like NYC, Boston or SF
Just to be clear only my first comment regarding the falling employment numbers was related to chain restaurants & other service companies looking to add a location to their roster. The balance of my comments were concerning the location of R&D, back office, high tech and other commercial and industrial expansions.

Don- thanks for the clarification. I'm focusing on the white-collar businesses. Are you saying that the only factor they consider is cost? What if one of the decision makers is going to move to the area where their new office is going to locate. Then, they would send their kids to school there, find an appealing neighborhood, etc. Does that change things?

...Charlotte and it's "newsess"...
I'm not sure about "newness", I mean sure, there's a couple of relatively new scrapers in the CBD and plenty of shiny new Walmarts in the suburbs for sure, but other than that I don't find anything particularly impressive about it. I've always heard of a rustbelt characterization being rusting highway overpasses, well take a ride down I-77 through downtown (especially south of the city, north was recently widened and therefore somewhat improved), and all the grit and grime of that road would give mid-70's Buffalo a run for it's money. Not to mention I've never seen more trash and garbage accumulated along the side of a single roadway than that whole 105-mile trek through NC, Charlotte included (though it's light-years cleaner than Statesville). Sure, a flagging economy, old skyscrapers, and snow may turn people off, but at least it's not literally garbage on the streets.

I thought it was quite an impressive city the first time through, but I've become less and less impressed with it each time. If I ever moved to the Carolinas, I'd move to SC; I just think it's the better of the two, despite all the stereotypes.

But that's just one guy's opinion so please leave it as such. I've left it.

Blang- sorry to see you go. You seemed like a positive Rochestarian, who could have helped make the city better. Hope y'all have fun down south.

Well I haven't left yet, Just making it known that I am pursuing a career down south since there are no job openings for those fields around here. As much as I'd like to stay, I'd also like to start a new life. I love Rochester, always will, grew up here, was raised here...etc...but at some point I had to face the facts, and right now I did just that.

As far as the drive down 77, I don't think theres all that much garbage. The only industrial area of that interstate in and around Charlotte has to be the I-77/I-85 interchange. That is a highly industrial area, but we're talking about a road that goes through the Lake Norman area, and that is not anywhere close to 70's Buffalo.

Also I'm not one to be impressed by flashy new skyscrapers, and that sort of thing, I'm looking out for my ability to live, in the least, comfortably. I like the snow, and Charlotte is within an hour of downhill skiing (a past time that I'm very very good at) so thats a plus. I'm not into the beach or anything like that. My fiance hates the cold, so she see's the plus in lack of snow and cold, I don't mind it. But seeing as how you can't have us without her, she weighs in on the decission as well.

Again, haven't moved yet, not even looking at houses seriously yet, just have applied to jobs. Wanted to let everyone know, and to see what everyone thinks! I'm still in Rochester, and I'm still a contributor.

...As far as the drive down 77, I don't think theres all that much garbage...
I was last down there Christmas day and it was horrible, not as bad around Charlotte as it was in the northern portion of the state (esp. Statesville). Meanwhile the Virginia side of the border was spotless. Granted it was quite foggy down the mountain and you could hardly see, but it was only for a few miles. Plus Virginia must be one of the cleanest states I've ever seen, at least in my impression.

And by garbage I mean big stuff too. Refrigerator-sized boxes, car parts, you name it. I probably could've built a couple cars and opened up a Walmart if I wanted to pick it all up and keep it.

As an aside if you thought my remarks were condesending you are indeed the most insecure thin skinned person on all of the ssc sites.

Apparantly you've never come accross LA lover/Vannstrap/whatever the hell he calls himself now. I really wouldn't have cared if anyone else had said it, but, to dig up the past, you defintely took some sort of pleasure in posting every single negative statistic you could find on Rochester a while ago, and it was most likely to "get to" me. I actually agree with much of what you say, and you are practically a Rochester cheerleader compaired to Susie, that's why I said "argue one point", and not something more to the tune of "you idiot stop lying". I just thought that was a bit of an unfare statement. Thin skinned? maybe, it's mostly that I am just very good at arguing when I have the time. That's why I am persuing a career in law, which is the subject I am about to make a new thread on....

Oh, I haven't driven through the northern portion of I-77 in at least a year, i meant specificaly around Charlotte. I can agree with you though the portion of 77 coming down the mountain through Virginia to the NC border is georgous! Beautiful country up there.

Oh, I haven't driven through the northern portion of I-77 in at least a year, i meant specificaly around Charlotte. I can agree with you though the portion of 77 coming down the mountain through Virginia to the NC border is georgous! Beautiful country up there.

Yeah I love that section. Wasn't too fun going down that hill in the fog, but on a good day you can see for what seems like forever. But overall, yeah, Virginia is probably my favorite state to drive through on my way down, I haven't seen a part I didn't like (I-77, I-81, & US-13/Eastern Shore). Just haven't been through the center, I specifically avoided the I-95 corridor when I lived in NH.

Well I did have an experience with the Hillsville, VA McDonald's on a bathroom break the first time down, in what has to be the filthiest restaurant restroom I've seen - so I don't stop there anymore!

Now we just need to figure out what this has to do with Rochester!

Now we just need to figure out what this has to do with Rochester!

We have cleaner bathrooms in our mcdonalds than them!

As a side note (fruit from the random tree!) the bathrooms in the niagara falls table rock house are the cleanest public restroom I have ever been in in my entire life!

^^ lol, that's because it's in Canada. That is my favorite restaraunt ever, can't beat the view.

^^ actually they aren't restrooms or bathrooms...they're "washrooms"

And the bathrooms at the Hooksett rest area on I-93 in NH I would have to say are the worst I've seen from a public standpoint. Most states do a decent job on theirs, though.

Don- thanks for the clarification. I'm focusing on the white-collar businesses. Are you saying that the only factor they consider is cost? What if one of the decision makers is going to move to the area where their new office is going to locate. Then, they would send their kids to school there, find an appealing neighborhood, etc. Does that change things?
The three biggest factors are cost, ease of doing business i.e. regulations, and possible ease of intercity transportation/shipping - depending on the business.

The decision makers if they are going to make the move know that no matter where they go in this country they will find a nice neighborhood and a decent private school. Public education is simply not a factor in relocation decisions. If it was the Northeast would be booming and the Southeast would not. In real estate they say everything is location location location, in site selection it is cost, cost and cost.

Blangjr....good luck to you! From your profile it looks like you grew up here and went to college here...so its time you moved away for a while to see what other cultures have to offer. I think that everyone from Roc should go to college in another city and get a taste of other places. From the people I speak with, the ones that stay in Roc are those who got out of Roc during college or those who arent from here. They saw what else is out there, and decided they had it good in Rochester. Either that or they started life way to early and got married and had children when they were too young.

I went to UB for five years and after I graduated I vowed I would NEVER return to upstate NY. In 2001, I took a job over the phone with Merck Pharmaceuticals and moved to Atlanta. After 6 months there, Merck closed our offices and offered all 250 ee's to move to the NJ headquarters. I hate NJ, and dreaded Atlanta so I moved back home to Roc. I wasnt going to stay in Atlanta, I was miserable and I had it good there too. I lived off of Peachtree in Buckhead right on the Peachtree Golf Club, this is the affluent area where all of the northerners live. I couldnt take 8 hr drives on saturdays to run errands, ridiculous accidents on highways that couldnt handle the population, constantly being called a "yankee" by the locals, and the lack of people with any "class or culture." I just couldn't conform to the southern Nascar culture.

There are positives, I have two friends in Charlotte. They were both offered great bank jobs at Wachovia and Bank of America over the phone. They have both lived there 5 years and between the two of them have been promoted 8 times. One over sees 40 people, most of them older than they are. Since my friends can do things 20 times faster than the locals they are rewarded...often. One just got married to a doctor from California that moved to Charlotte. The other can't find any quality girls in the whole city. He gets bored that the finest restaurants and bars in downtown Charlotte are all chains. He wants to attend the philharmonic or ballet, but there are none. No culture...just strip plazas. He does say they have an amazing sports culture, the bank gives him tickets to the football and basketball games all the time. When I was there I was impressed by the Southpark area, and Lake Norman was ok, but if I heard one more time that this was a Nascar persons house I was going to scream. Both agree that by the time they reach the age to have children they will move back to give the children a proper education. Just some things to think about. BTW, both are from and went to school in upstate NY, so after college they felt they had to leave too.

I love cars and I compare the areas like this. The South is like a Hyundai, Kia, or an American car. Mediocre and ugly, with poor reliabilty, and low build quality. Rochester is certainly not a Lexus, but we are at least a Toyota.

To change subject I think the nicest road I have ever traveled on was I-83 from Penn border to Baltimore, it is so clean and they planted a well maintained hedge down the middle of the road. Also it is nice to see the horse farms that surround the interstate in that area.

Development news:

City newspaper reports that Saddle Ridge Entertainment Resort will move into the former Jillians in High Falls. Saddle Ridge is another chain (6 other locations, Pittsburgh, Columbia, SC, Louisville, 2 in L.A., and one in Cincinnatti) like Dave and Busters and Jillians, but has a more adult spin to it.
The Rochester venue will have 5 attractions. Saddle Ridge's main focus will be country music with line dancing, cowboy-hatted girls dancing on the bar, and a mechanical bull. Top 40 music will be offered in The Yucatan Liquor Stand. The Cheyenne Super Club will serve BBQ, steaks, and over-stuffed sandwiches with live local and national entertainment after 10 p.m. on Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. The Palm Bar will have an upscale atmosphere and high-end tapas menu. And King Pinz will feature a retro bowling alley, salvaged from Jillian's. The grand opening target: late March-early April.

The growing South Wedge:
Green grocery is scheduled to open this summer at the corner of South and Gregory Sts. The developer has had her eye on the Abeles building across from Beale Street Café for years. But the building, which has been largely vacant for about five years, became available only three months ago, when developer Howard Konar was able to buy it. Green grocery's owner, Hayes-Cepero is helping to revitalize the area, but it took Konar years to iron out details backstage for the building. Like a professional Monopoly player, Konar spent two years buying up land at the northwest corner of South and Gregory. He envisions, he says, an old-style marketplace with both retail and residential spaces.

Here's a link to the stories: http://www.rochester-citynews.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A4197

And here is a great new magazine that came out in September I keep forgetting to mention: http://www.rochester-citynews.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A4197

Rochester magazine caters and exploits the "upper crust" of Rochester. It goes in depth about fun things that the more privilidged Rochesterians enjoy. The issues are released every other month by Gannett. They always tour a prominent mansion in Rochester with pictures. They focus on goods and stores in Brighton and Pittsford and tell you about what charity events to attend around Rochester. The magazine promotes donating to the underpriviliged and how to enjoy some of the less publicized aspects of Rochester culture. It is an awesome publication.

Rochester 7th Best Market for Pro Sports Expansion

Best league for expansion team:
Major League Soccer

Area's total personal income:
$43.9 billion

Surplus for new team:
$43.9 billion*

Bottom line:
Rochester dropped out of the spotlight when the NBA skipped town in 1957. Three factors make MLS its best vehicle for a comeback: Rochester is soccer-crazy, drawing capacity crowds for its minor-league team. It's home to major corporations such as Eastman Kodak, Xerox and Bausch & Lomb. And its personal income is nearly three times the size required for an MLS franchise.

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/sports_expansion/7.html

according to their spreadsheet that you can download from the link...Rochester could support an NFL, NHL, NBA, or MLS team...not an MLB team tho.

(Buffalo Ranked as the 9th most over-extended sports markets)

Well then it's a good thing they are getting one. PAETEC park will be nearing completeion this year, and then the Rochester Raging Rhinos will be a major league soccer team, and probably one of the best. And Rochester is DEFINETLY soccer crazy, there isnt a family in the area that doesn't have at least one son or daughter on a team. I read somewhere that Rochester has the highest, by far, number of youth soccer teams per capita in the nation. The Rhinos will have a strong fanbase.

Thats an interesting bit of information about expansion of pro sports teams, doesn't hurt to be in the top 10 of all of those cities. Has an interesting top 10 thats for sure.

You omitted two of the most important reasons for the nationwide slowdown in the real estate market - increasing interest rates and decreased discretionary spending due to increased energy costs.

I assume from your comments about the city and your "Rochester - Made for Leaving" banner, that you plan to relocate soon. If so, I hope your move to "greener pastures" works out for you.

If you intend to stay, I would be interested in seeing you post YOUR vision of the "right moves" to improve the economic future of our great city.

You tried to explain away Rochester's major decline in Home sales by stating that it is a nationwide slowdown. The facts state otherwise. Even our neighbor to the west is doing far better than us as this article from the Buffalo thread bears out. It is a ROCHESTER PROBLEM.

Area home sales increase 16.9% in January

Home sales in the Buffalo Niagara region are starting 2006 with a bang.
The Buffalo Niagara Association of Realtors reports 742 residences were sold last month, the highest number for the month of January in over a decade. The sales represented a 16.9 percent increase over January 2005, with 635 homes were sold.
The revved up market also shows dramatic movement from December, with a 42.4 percent leap from the 521 homes sold in the final month of the 2005.
Miriam Treger, president of the realtor group, said it's a strong market for buyers and sellers.
"People have a lot of choices in a lot of price ranges," Treger said. "It's a more comfortable market so buyers don't have to jump so quickly, but there's not a glut of homes, so sellers are fine, too. We're still seeing multiple offers."
The median residential sales price, which means half sold for more and half for less, climbed 4.9 percent last month, from $90,000 in January 2005 to $94,375 last month. The average home price went up 3 percent, from $113,495 to $116,885.
On the upper end of the sales scale, there were eight residences which sold for more than $500,000.
Carole Holcberg, president of Buffalo-based Holcberg Limited Real Estate, said she feels "strong momentum" at the start of 2006.
She also noted a higher than normal volume of home shoppers at open houses in the past month, especially for houses in the $150,000 to $350,000 range.
"I see no indications of a slowdown. I think we're seeing the start of what could be a record spring and summer sales season and a really strong year," the realtor added.
Locally, 2005 was a strong year overall, with the highest volume of sales in 10 years.

Rochester 7th Best Market for Pro Sports Expansion

Best league for expansion team:
Major League Soccer

Area's total personal income:
$43.9 billion

Surplus for new team:
$43.9 billion*

Bottom line:
Rochester dropped out of the spotlight when the NBA skipped town in 1957. Three factors make MLS its best vehicle for a comeback: Rochester is soccer-crazy, drawing capacity crowds for its minor-league team. It's home to major corporations such as Eastman Kodak, Xerox and Bausch & Lomb. And its personal income is nearly three times the size required for an MLS franchise.

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/sports_expansion/7.html

according to their spreadsheet that you can download from the link...Rochester could support an NFL, NHL, NBA, or MLS team...not an MLB team tho.

(Buffalo Ranked as the 9th most over-extended sports markets)

Do you really for a second think that Rochester which is not even in the top 75 of TV markets could support ANY major league team?

Sorry soccer is NOT major league in the US.

You tried to explain away Rochester's major decline in Home sales by stating that it is a nationwide slowdown. The facts state otherwise. Even our neighbor to the west is doing far better than us as this article from the Buffalo thread bears out. It is a ROCHESTER PROBLEM.



Oh god just go to hell Susie... oops I forgot, you already think you live there! There wasn't a "major decline" in homesales in Rochester, in fact, that article said quite clearly it was a very slight decline overall, that will be more than made up for in the projected 2006 year, along with the RECORD NEW HOME CONSTRUCTION of 2005, which also contributed to the lower number of existing homes being sold. I quite often look up Rochester real estate on Nohnagle.com, and you see houses come up and they will be gone in a week... especially if they are in the eastern suburbs (Pittsford/Penfeld/Perinton/Webster/Brighton) or Park Avenue area of the city.

Do you really for a second think that Rochester which is not even in the top 75 of TV markets could support ANY major league team?

Sorry soccer is NOT major league in the US.

Green Bay Wisconsin has 1/10th the metro area of Rochester and an NFL team... there goes your (i)logical conclusion.

Green Bay Wisconsin has 1/10th the metro area of Rochester and an NFL team... there goes your (i)logical conclusion.
Green Bay is 1) community owned, which is not possible for a new team. 2) used to play some of their home games in Milwaukee to make a go of it. 3) is the only NFL team in all of Wisconsin so it still is considered the home team for Milwaukee which is more than twice the size of the Rochester TV market.

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the rambling nonsense, what did you say?

Oh god just go to hell Susie... oops I forgot, you already think you live there! There wasn't a "major decline" in homesales in Rochester, in fact, that article said quite clearly it was a very slight decline overall, that will be more than made up for in the projected 2006 year, along with the RECORD NEW HOME CONSTRUCTION of 2005, which also contributed to the lower number of existing homes being sold. I quite often look up Rochester real estate on Nohnagle.com, and you see houses come up and they will be gone in a week... especially if they are in the eastern suburbs (Pittsford/Penfeld/Perinton/Webster/Brighton) or Park Avenue area of the city.


Sure, the lost sales will be made up just as soon as 18,000 the lost jobs are made up, which will happen as soon as the lost population is made up, which will happen as soon as the 20 and 30 somethings that moved away all come home, yes, it will all happen, just as soon as hell freezes over.

2005 was not a record year for housing starts.
Here is a report from the Rochester Business Journal:

Persuading prospective homeowners to buy new homes last year was a lot like pulling teeth, area home builders say. Preliminary reports show local building permits in 2005 were down some 7 percent from 2004. Local layoffs, combined with the effects of rising fuel prices, made consumers apprehensive to buy, experts say. Says Louis Masi, president of Rochester-based home-building company Mascot Inc. "When you thought things were going to be busy, they weren't.



For someone that wants to be a lawyer you are not too sharp. BTW even the real estate company you cited sold out to an out of town company so the principals could head south.

http://www.looksmartnewyork.com/p/articles/mi_qn4180/is_20060117/ai_n16000459#continue Sure the lost sales will be made up just as soon as the lost jobs are made up which will happen as soon as the lost population is made up, which will happen as soon as the 20 and 30 somethings that moved away all come home yes it will all happen just as soon as hell freezes over.

2005 was not a record year for housing starts. If the dollar value was higher it is simply because of inflation not because of the number of homes started. For someone that wants to be a lawyer you are not too sharp. BTW even the real estate company you cited sold out to an out of town company so the principals could head south.

Really now?

http://www.looksmartnewyork.com/p/articles/mi_qn4180/is_20060117/ai_n16000459#continue

Greater Rochester Assn. of Realtors: Home sale volume breaks all-
Daily Record (Rochester, NY), Jan 17, 2006 by Sarah M. Feingold



According to the Greater Rochester Association of Realtors, year- to-date existing single-family home sales in 2005 reached an all- time record at 13,312. Closings are up 4.3 percent compared to 2004, and are slightly down 0.5 percent compared to last month.
The average sale price of existing single-family homes sold in December 2005 increased by 4.8 percent to $135,330 as compared to last year at this time.

The number of homes listed for sale decreased by 30 percent compared to last month, and increased by 4.1 percent compared to December 2004. Median sale price increased by 1.8 percent to $111,000 compared to last December, and decreased by 1.8 percent when compared to November 2005.

There was a 9.3 percent increase in year-to-date dollar volume of sales, reaching $1,801,517,770. Year-to-date figures showed 2005 existing single-family home sales were up 3.3 percent in Monroe County. The number of houses sold in the City of Rochester increased by 4.7 percent compared to last year at this time. Listing for all properties to date in the region are up by 6.8 percent.

A number of areas posted a gain in closings on a year-to-date basis. They are:
* Monroe County, up 3.3 percent, from 8,522 in 2004 to 8,806 in 2005;

* Ontario County, up 10.5 percent from 1,053 in 2004 to 1,164 in 2005;

* Orleans County, up 11.2 percent, from 366 in 2004 to 407 in 2005;

* Seneca/Yates County, up 4.8 percent, from 477 in 2004 to 500 in 2005;

* Steuben/Allegany County, up 19.6 percent, from 168 in 2004 to 201 in 2005;

* Wayne County up 7.2 percent, from 985 in 2004 to 1,056 in 2005; and

* Wyoming County, up 9 percent, from 134 in 2004 to 146 in 2005.

Mortgage, Deed Activity

According to the Monroe County Clerk's Office, approximately 3,259 mortgages were filed with the office in December, 2005. This figure is up from one year ago when 3,018 mortgages were filed.

Approximately 2,029 deeds were filed in December 2005, up from one year ago when 1,778 deeds were filed.

Copyright 2006 Dolan Media Newswires
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.


For someone who claims to really "love" Rochester but just feel bad becasue there is "no hope", you certainly have an odd habit of denying positive facts..... here is another one for you:



http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060220/BUSINESS/602200326


Windsor Tech grows as factory footprint shrinks

David Tyler
Staff writer


(February 20, 2006) — Rochester's Windsor Technology is getting bigger and smaller at the same time.

Bigger, because the contract electronics manufacturer, with new financing and a new management team, is hiring and could add six workers to its 60-person work force this spring, officials said.

And smaller, because Windsor is reorganizing its factory floor in a move to be more efficient and save money.

Windsor is selling its 42,000-square-foot building in the Rochester Science Park to a developer. It will then lease back about 25,000 square feet, a move that will allow the company to save money on costs associated with ownership, said Grant Randall, the company's president.

Randall and a team of executives completed a buyout of what was then Windsor Manufacturing, with the help of funding from Argilus Investment Banking of Pittsford.

Argilus had also helped Windsor in 2004, investing $500,000 in the company and taking an ownership stake through debt. At the time, company officials said the investment helped keep Windsor afloat.

In October, Argilus converted its debt in the company to equity and backed a buyout of the company by Randall, who was previously head of sales, and his team. Business has been steadily increasing at Windsor, and the firm is looking to pick up sales in new geographic markets, Randall said.

It was important to Argilus to keep Windsor in the area, said Ken Conte, managing partner at Argilus.

"It would have been easy for us to take our fees and sell the company," said Conte. "But we wanted to see the growth occur here in Rochester. If we had sold, the company wouldn't be here today."

Now Randall says the company is aggressively seeking customers in a variety of fields, including industrial controls, biomedicine and defense.

The company, which opened in 1975, makes printed circuit boards, wire harnesses and other assemblies for electronic applications.

The company is not competing entirely on price, said Randall. Instead it chooses markets where customers may want the security of having a U.S. manufacturing partner or where high volumes aren't as important as precision.

"We're not going to be making anything for toys anytime soon," Randall said. "We're selling value."

Randall and his team see Windsor as more of a service provider than a manufacturer — offering engineering services and hoping solid customer service will build long-term relationships. "Those relationships are what got us through the tough times," Randall said.

You specifically said it was a record year for housing CONSTRUCTION, now put up or shut up. Let's see your basis for saying, and I quote - along with the RECORD NEW HOME CONSTRUCTION of 2005, which also contributed to the lower number of existing homes being sold.
What fantasy web site is this from?

I think you need to go outside and play for a while, the weather is probably great way down south where you live.

Do you really for a second think that Rochester which is not even in the top 75 of TV markets could support ANY major league team?

Sorry soccer is NOT major league in the US.

Well, according to that article I posted Rochester has 3 times the total personal income needed to support an MLS team. Besides, isn't Rochester-Syracuse area supposed to be the soccer capital of America? You have 1.8-ish million people right there, plus another mil from Buffalo that I'm sure would help support the team. So yeah absolutely, I think Rochester could support an MLS team. I would think Rochester would be a perfect location for an MLS team actually seeing how it is perfectly centered between two other good sized cities that are a short drive there. And as far as i'm concerned, the tv market doesn't matter that much for MLS because they don't get good ratings in any city that they are in, so Rochester would probably get close to the same amount in tv revenues as Kansas City or any other of its close peers.

Did you even read the short article I posted? It explains why an MLS team is a good fit for that city. I would rather listen to an expert on sports expansion whos already taken into account all the real factors involved, than someone who claims to be from Rochester but is so anti-Rochester at the same time.

What percentage of American's consider MLS to be major league?

yea, Milwaukee is the base for Green Bay, though Green bay itself is a city, it could never support a franchise on its own.

Housing market...are people moving out? moving away or whats the news with all the activity?

MLS, don't know much about it...if it wants to be known as a Pro-Sports team, they better start televising it someplace more.

does anyone know what building in downtown Rochester is the Federal building?

.

Housing market...are people moving out? moving away or whats the news with all the activity?



Away - major brain drain. Rochester has one of the largest percentage of 20 somethings moving to other cities in the entire country. There is also a great amount of "white flight" in Monroe County. In 1990 for example there were 600,328 Whites in the County by 2000 this number had dropped to 581,961 per the US Census Bureau. During that same time period the percentage of County residents living in poverty increased. All of this is more evidence of the Brain Drain young college educated whites moving away while poor immigrant hispanics moving in going from 26,430 in 1990 to 39,065 in 2000. This is not a racial comment it is simply a fact borne out by the demographic data on the Census Bureau's web site. Look it up see the decrease in the educational attainment over the same time span. And this was during the 1990's when we thought we were doing quite well. Imagine what 2010 will look like in the educational attainment area.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=n&_lang=en&mt_name=DEC_2000_PL_U_GCTPL_ST2&format=ST-2&_box_head_nbr=GCT-PL&ds_name=DEC_2000_PL_U&geo_id=04000US36

http://censtats.census.gov/data/NY/05036055.pdf


http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-context=qt&-qr_name=DEC_1990_STF1_DP1&-ds_name=DEC_1990_STF1_&-CONTEXT=qt&-tree_id=100&-redoLog=true&-all_geo_types=N&-geo_id=04000US36&-geo_id=05000US36055&-search_results=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en

What percentage of American's consider MLS to be major league?

well, i don't particularly like soccer...but I consider it major league. If Rochester can easily sell out a soccer stadium for a soccer game, who cares whether some people consider it "major league" or not. I don't really think your question is relevant.

RocGuy - I thought you said you were going to ignore this "Susie" character. If more people do that, then she will eventually stop sharing her useless negativity.

People like "Susie" CAUSE brain drains because of their stifling negative energy. Rochester needs to be an environment where people can share their pride in the town. This is what I like about the Rochester Young Professionals group or talking about the Roc with my friends. Of course, the city has its problems--we aren't dumb--we talk about ways that it can succeed. Positive energy attracts.

You specifically said it was a record year for housing CONSTRUCTION, now put up or shut up. Let's see your basis for saying, and I quote - along with the RECORD NEW HOME CONSTRUCTION of 2005, which also contributed to the lower number of existing homes being sold.
What fantasy web site is this from?

I think you need to go outside and play for a while, the weather is probably great way down south where you live.

It's sleeting now, and yes, I contradicted myself there. But my point was to prove your false statement You tried to explain away Rochester's major decline in Home sales by stating that it is a nationwide slowdown My point is that you were wrong, and there was no "major slowdown" in 2005, in fact, it was a record breaking year for homesales, and that there was no "major" slowdown now. But seriously Susie, why do you even post on here? If you hate Rochester so much and are so convinced that it's going to deteriate into nothingness, why do you bother coming on the Rochester DEVELOPMENTS news thread at all? You want to counterbalance posts that you think sugarcoat issues, fine, but don't make crap up and then whine when people call you bitter. It really makes no sense at all and it's really irritating. It's clear that you have some serious emotional/psychological issues and it's getting REALLY old seeing you take them all out on Rochester. It's even more irritating and PATHETIC when you try to psycho-analyze me and why I like Rochester (lol, did the rest of you know that I use Rochester as a substitute for my girlfriend?, and that the real reason I want to move back there is so that I can imagine my parents are back together?) Anyways Jazz, you are right, I did say that I would try to ignore her, and I slipped what can I say. I don't think I will anymore though, because I realize that nobody else really takes anything she says seriously anyways so I am now just going to let her continue to make an ass out of herself and not interfere. I will post articles or stats to contradict false statements that she makes, but I won't even address her anymore. I think that is probably the reason she still posts on this thread, to get to me.

Although it is not on the same level as the other professional sports, MLS is indeed major league. And one big positive of a team locating in Rochester would be the increase in exposure. As lame as it sounds, even semi-regular mentions on a sportscenter type show would help raise the city's profile. Rochester has long had an image problem. Not that it has a bad image, but that it has none at all. There are people in our own state that don't know anything about Rochester.

Rochester, in lacking a major league team or even a Division 1 team, a la Syracuse, completely leaves the city out of the national spotlight. On top of this, the MLS team would certainly be a regional draw, as the Bills and Sabres are. There are a lot of soccer fans in western and central NY and they would be willing to travel an hour to see the top level in the US. Furthermore, Toronto is scheduled to get an MLS team and Rochester already has a heated rivalry with the USL team. This rivalry would certainly reach a high level if both were to be in MLS, thereby increasing the local spotlight.

Yes in the grand scheme of things it is probably not a big deal and doesn't compare to a team in the NFL, MLB, NBA or NHL. But it would be an improvement and something that Rochester currently lacks. Rochester's only national sport exposure is the occasional PGA Major at Oak Hill.

Suzie, there is being objective and honest about the city's shortcomings and then there is definite overkill. Not every aspect of this city is negative and it really should be mixed with the positives that this community does have.

It's sleeting now, and yes, I contradicted myself there. But my point was to prove your false statement My point is that you were wrong,
So your point is that in order to prove me wrong you had to lie? In that case you proved me right.

Although it is not on the same level as the other professional sports, MLS is indeed major league.

What percentage of Americans consider MLS major league? It is a garbage league like arena football (which failed here) and indoor lacross. The national network newscasts all do stories on the champions of the NFL, MLB, NBA and even the NHL. They do no stories on MLS because it is not a major league in the minds of the vast majority of Americans.

Suzie, there is being objective and honest about the city's shortcomings and then there is definite overkill. Not every aspect of this city is negative and it really should be mixed with the positives that this community does have.

If you don't like my factual comments because the upset your ego then simply skip over them.

What percentage of Americans consider MLS major league? It is a garbage league like arena football (which failed here) and indoor lacross. The national network newscasts all do stories on the champions of the NFL, MLB, NBA and even the NHL. They do no stories on MLS because it is not a major league in the minds of the vast majority of Americans.

The Rochester Raging Rhinos and the Montreal Impact are the top two teams in the USL league. Home games at Frontier Field routinely draw over 10,000 fans.
http://www.rhinossoccer.com/

Soccer, to the rest of the world, is what the NFL is to the USA.

The Rochester Raging Rhinos and the Montreal Impact are the top two teams in the USL league. Home games at Frontier Field routinely draw over 10,000 fans.
http://www.rhinossoccer.com/

Soccer, to the rest of the world, is what the NFL is to the USA.
Since you obviously do not know the percentage I will make it easier on you.

1) What is the average leaguewide attendace for the USL league? Compare to NFL, MLB, NHL, and NFL. Then compare it to minor league hockey and minor league baseball.


2) Then show me what is the percentage of seats of it's stadiums does the USL sell. Compare that to the other leagues. If you can show me that soccer draws as well as the real major leagues then I will stand corrected. If not shut up and admit that soccer in this country is simply another garbage league.

Here is some nice development news about the port. And F11Roch, you are right Rochester is the perfect city for an MLS team, and who knows, maybe if a major soccer town like Rochester gets one, and therefore has a very good team, the sport will become more popular nationwide. Hocky wasn't big in the US until the 1980's, there's no reason the same thing can't happen to MLS. And let's not forget, THEY ARE GETTING A MLS TEAM! It is going to happen, you know that huge project by the river, PAETEC park, yeah, that is Rochester's future MLS team's home. Anyways, back to the port. Here is an article from today that brings up a very good point in the develpment of the port area in the city, lot's of small attrctions vs. one large one. This is something the community would utilize for sure.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060221/NEWS01/602210338/1002/NEWS

Concepts envision hotel, marina at port


Brian Sharp
Staff writer


(February 21, 2006) — A small boutique hotel and an inlet behind Ontario Beach Park for a new marina are among proposals that will be presented Thursday for the Port of Rochester.

Planning consultant Sasaki Associates Inc. of Watertown, Mass., will be in town to unveil three concept proposals for the city-owned, 30-acre Charlotte development site, now mostly a parking lot. Options show parking garages supporting street-level shops and mid- to upper-end condominiums.

Sasaki officials met with city staffers last week to preview the scenarios.

"Some scenarios had green space, open space, others had a small boutique hotel," City Councilman Robert Stevenson said.

One marina option would cut a new waterway behind Ontario Beach Park from the Genesee River nearly to Lake Avenue. "Studies show there is a very definite market for more marina space around here," Stevenson said. "Basically, as you build it they will come. My biggest question is 'How the heck do you keep (the inlet marina) flushed out?'"

This week's presentation comes after 20 years of discussion about what to do with the port area. The city hired Sasaki Associates last fall to design an urban village and year-round tourist destination. The target area surrounds the ferry terminal and is bordered roughly by Lake Avenue, Ontario Beach Park, the CSX rail line and the Genesee River. Mayor Robert Duffy, going against staff advice, has asked Sasaki to include the terminal in its planning.

Stevenson said all scenarios emphasized residential development filling the upper floors of what could be six new buildings. Wide streets — including a new north-south road — would allow curbside parking, officials said. And all scenarios included a marina for boats at least 20 to 40 feet long. Sasaki also suggested building two parking garages dug into the sloping landscape and rising as much as three levels, officials said.

The goal, Stevenson said, is to achieve intensive development without disrupting views of the water. Julio Vazquez, the city's commissioner of community development, said the designs would tie in with the lighthouse.

Kurt Ritchie owns Scuttlebutt's, 431 River St., and had the catering and gift shop contract on the high-speed ferry.

"I've been here 15 years," Ritchie said, explaining that he opened in Charlotte expecting the redevelopment to take root years ago.

"I would love to see the village-type atmosphere where people are walking, shopping. I don't think one major attraction is going to make it. I think it needs to be a lot of small attractions."

Stevenson said the current street alignment would remain, with the acreage divided into eight plots. Housing would cater to empty nesters and be oriented to the lake. At least one scenario called for intense housing development on the riverfront immediately south of the terminal, Stevenson said.

susie you keep forgetting that Rochester is soccer crazy and that an MLS team would give Rochester some positive exposure. MLS is much higher up on the pro-sports totem pole than Indoor Lacrosse and Arena Football. Do you not want your city to get a team?? Do you not want nice things for your city?? Do you not want your city to progress??

^^ The answer to your questions is clearly no. That was my point in saying :

But seriously Susie, why do you even post on here? If you hate Rochester so much and are so convinced that it's going to deteriate into nothingness, why do you bother coming on the Rochester DEVELOPMENTS news thread at all? You want to counterbalance posts that you think sugarcoat issues, fine, but don't make crap up and then whine when people call you bitter. It really makes no sense at all and it's really irritating. It's clear that you have some serious emotional/psychological issues and it's getting REALLY old seeing you take them all out on Rochester. It's even more irritating and PATHETIC when you try to psycho-analyze me and why I like Rochester (lol, did the rest of you know that I use Rochester as a substitute for my girlfriend?, and that the real reason I want to move back there is so that I can imagine my parents are back together?) Anyways Jazz, you are right, I did say that I would try to ignore her, and I slipped what can I say. I don't think I will anymore though, because I realize that nobody else really takes anything she says seriously anyways so I am now just going to let her continue to make an ass out of herself and not interfere. I will post articles or stats to contradict false statements that she makes, but I won't even address her anymore. I think that is probably the reason she still posts on this thread, to get to me.


Believe me I know more than anyone that it's hard, but just ignore the girl. That's her whole objective is just to get to us that want to see Rochester do well, because she doesn't. Like I stated in the quote above, it's obvioulsy some deep psychological or emotional problem.

susie you keep forgetting that Rochester is soccer crazy and that an MLS team would give Rochester some positive exposure. MLS is much higher up on the pro-sports totem pole than Indoor Lacrosse and Arena Football. Do you not want your city to get a team?? Do you not want nice things for your city?? Do you not want your city to progress??

What you are saying is that you are afraid to post the data because you know it will clearly show that soccer is not major league it ranks below minor hockey and baseball.

The fact remains that MLS is bush league and USL is even lower. So drop all that talk about it being major league, I was here for the last major league soccer in the 70's that didn't fly either.

Rochester just aint a major league sports town - just count the 4,500 that attended the Sabres regular season game and you will know that is so.

What you are saying is that you are afraid to post the data because you know it will clearly show that soccer is not major league it ranks below minor hockey and baseball.
affraid to post what data?


The fact remains that MLS is bush league and USL is even lower. So drop all that talk about it being major league, I was here for the last major league soccer in the 70's that didn't fly either.

I never said it was as high as the MLB or NFL or NBA or NHL. MLS is recognized by espn and all the other sports outlets as Major League.


Rochester just aint a major league sports town - just count the 4,500 that attended the Sabres regular season game and you will know that is so.
well actually it was 8,500 but anyways...I'll take bizjournals' experts' analysis that says Rochester can support an MLS team over your "I would rather have nothing" attitude.

Wow! you guys were busy on here....

RocGuy....Thanks for posting that looksmart website....never knew about it..has some interesting facts on it. i.e. There is a publication called the Daily Record published here about law interests here in Rochester.

Buffcity...The federal building is at 100 state st, near high falls. Its a white ugly 70's building and connects to the federal court building.

In regards to your moving away question....yes people are moving away from here but no more than Buffalo, St Louis, Columbus, etc. The trend is just to move to warmer weather for young people right now. No northern/midwest city is growing right now..think about it? (maybe there is one or two exceptions) But, the statistics are not 100% true. Rochester is deifferent from the Buffalo MSA. We have many counties around us that are close and have towns growing in them. Victor, Gananda, and Ontario are some of them outside Monroe county that for some reason people want to live in them (I dont know why they are so far away from downtown.) Buffalo has growing Clarence, Orchard Park, Wheatfield (Niagara county I think), and Hamburg, but almost all are still in Erie county, so stats get skewed in comparison.

I do want to know why people would sell some of their beautiful few year old homes though, except that the truth is the national economy is hard. ( I still believe we are in a recession) Just search the D and C homes section and right now there are more than 20 homes priced over 1 million dollars in the Rochester area. Now before you go with negativity, I am very young and have lived in 10 new homes over the years, my parents built all of them. My parents became bored with the homes often and we moved so my mom could redecorate, we even moved from a home after one year because the neighbors were too trashy. SOme of these people might be like my parents. Since interest rates are going up now, these people may want to sell their homes now to build a new house before the interest rates go back up to crazy proportions.

BJfan82, Susie, F11Roch, Northcoast.....Soccer is a major league sport. Less popular than other sports right now but with a growing fan base. It it has been documented that more educated wealthy white collar consumers find Soccer to be their sport of choice. That is why there are less fights and no tailgating at these sporting events in America. There are less fans in America than other sports because there are less wealthy well educated people in the world than there are poor schlubs. You can especially tell this by driving around the country and seeing the gaining amount of Pontiacs with "Yield to the princess" license plate holders. Like a princess would ever drive a Ponticrap. HAHA.

Ill have many rebuttals for Susie's takes tomorrow...have work to do. Rocguy...personal attacks are boring on here..please stop with incessant bickering...make general sweeping connotations instead. Then people wont take it personally and it makes them think. At least Susie does start a typing frenzy on here.

umm yeah.
i'm pretty darn sure columbus is growing. ^^^

Umm Yeah...have you ever been there....I have...its not...its all sprawl..fueled by the completion of the I-270..pop gain is not there. My Uncle lives there, he is the Police Chief of New Albany (a suburb). My cousins (his children) moved to Chicago and Troy, Michigan claiming there are no jobs in Columbus, except Ohio State and working for the Limited Corp. They claim that the small towns around Columbus are dying and the people are moving to the Columbus suburbs. Opposite of Rochester, probably because Columbus is a NEW city and Rochester is historic. Columbus has the same problems.

http://www.infoplease.com/us/census/data/ohio/columbus/

columbus's 11.8% growth rate from 1990 to 2000 say otherwise.

and you say all their growth is sprawl.
just because your uncle doesnt like it and your cousins couldn't find work in their fields does not mean its not growing or that its as weak of an economy as rochester.

^ could they have just "pulled a Kansas City" or "pulled a Jacksonville" by just moving the city boundries outward? 210 Sq.Miles for Columbus' area certainly sounds like that is what they've been doing. I don't think anyone treats Columbus like a "700,000 person city"...they're really more like a 300,000 or 325,000 city. Just like if we annexed all of Erie County, nobody would really recognize us as a city larger than Detroit.

I went to a Jummy Buffet concert at an amphitheater outside of Columbus the whole area appeared to be very propserous. We went into the City and it was very nice, very clean too.

Columbus is very well of economically, probabably the most economicaly well of city in the Midwest after Chicago, and by far the best off in Ohio. But yes, it did pull a Kansas City/Indianapolis/Jacksonville/Nashville and bump out it's borders. Most of the "city" is suburban sprawl, the actual original city before the giant suburban annexation is around 300,000. I can't remember where, It might have been epodunk where I read that. Go to Google Earth and look at Columbus' city limits and this will become very clear. But again, this is Rochester development news, and we seem to scew off topic way too much on here.

http://www.columbusinfobase.org/Census/website/Census%202000%20Home.htm

according to this 80% of the growth occurred in area annexed by the city PRIOR TO 1990. so the city did annex areas but mostly prior to this growth.

im going to go with jerome on this one. all of my trips to columbus have shown me nothing but a city that is a far cry economically from any other city in the so called rust belt. a livelier downtown, a number of modern buildings, hell i don't know it just looks like a city on the rise when you are there.

http://www.columbusinfobase.org/Census/website/1990.htm

this shows growth within the 1990 boundary.
still 10.4 %

Of course being the Capital it's growth is primarily tax funded from the depressed cities in the rest of the state.

that is true^^^
but unlike albany and many other state capitols columbus actually has an economy outside of government.

Which is?

When did this become the Columbus Development News thread?

Might as well be there sure isn't much development going on around here.

Susie, you are such a kind and loving person. I can't believe I ever said anything bad to you. Do you forgive me? I'm sure with that big gracious heart of yours, you will. I want to be you friend. You are just so warm hearted and friendly, and I doubt I deserve it, but that just really makes me want to be your friend. Better yet, marry me and make the the luckiest person on earth!

:weirdo: Susie, you are such a kind and loving person. I can't believe I ever said anything bad to you. Do you forgive me? I'm sure with that big gracious heart of yours, you will. I want to be you friend. You are just so warm hearted and friendly, and I doubt I deserve it, but that just really makes me want to be your friend. Better yet, marry me and make the the luckiest person on earth!

What's up with you, did puberty finally kick in?

Might as well be there sure isn't much development going on around here.

Here's a useful link for you: http://www.uhaul.com/

:weirdo:

What's up with you, did puberty finally kick in?

Oh yes, that's it! How did you know? You are also the smartest person I know. I can't wait for you to fly all that THOUSAND miles from Rochester to Raleigh so we can finally meet face to face. Of course we will be meeting here in NC because who the hell would ever want to go anywhere near Rochester? It is afterall, on its way to becoming a remote fishing village of tents and leantoos on the banks of the Genesee. I wish I had listened to you in the beginning and just went ahead and admited that you were right, I am using Rochester as a substitute for girlfriend, but not anymore, I WANT YOU!!!

Here's a useful link for you: http://www.uhaul.com/



HAHAHAHA! You guys make me laugh.

Columbus is a nice city. Been there many times. Reminds me new sprawl cities of the south but with some culture. But, it is still in the midwest.

Jerome....Columbus' businesses are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus,_Ohio
Scroll down to business.

Protourism....um in Albany everyone should know that GE is their major employer besides the government. Also, as our tourist expert here you should know that Saratoga Springs makes a fortune off of......tourism.

Here's a useful link for you: http://www.uhaul.com/
Thanks for the link, I searched around it a bit but nowhere could I see Rochester listed as a growth city. The closest I could find was Buffalo which was ranked #16 in growth on page 3 of 3. Florida and Texas were well represented though. This is the difference between the number moving in and the number moving out. They only listed those with net in migration, I guess if they had those with a large out migration I would have seen Rochester.

Here is the page;

http://secure.uhaul.com/pr/Redirect.aspx?FileName=U-Haul_Growth_Cities_03.pdf

Why did you just change it from the Carolina's to Florida and Texas sweetheart? I mean sure, the Carolinas weren't mentioned on the list at all, but still, you said it, so it was true!!!!! And I'm sure that even though the list is from 2002, you are still right!

Here's a useful link for you: http://www.uhaul.com/
Oh, dear God.

May I recommend, if any of you guys are moving in, around, out, in between, etc.; that you NOT choose U-Haul. Go with Penske or Budget or something. I used U-Haul to move out here and had nothing but problems. I was going to use Penske thanks to a nice AAA discount, but I had used U-Haul before and they were slightly cheaper. Little did I know it ended up being double.

Let's see, among the bigger problems -

- Lousy fuel mileage, even worse than it should have been. Fuel gauge also didn't work properly.
- Battery couldn't hold a charge. Had to call roadside TWICE because the POS wouldn't start.
- Their roadside assistance SUCKED (nimrods on the other end misconnecting, on hold, unintelligible, etc), and helped us rack up $400+ in cell phone charges.
- Complained to no end, but no concession. I still may take it up with BBB.

The only good thing, I suppose, is I could claim a deduction for all those expenses on my Fed taxes.

My girlfriend's father is a truck driver (has been his whole life), so naturally I paid him to fly up and drive the thing for us, and he said it was the worst vehicle he's ever driven. And it's not like it was obvious at the pickup place. My father then drove it back to the local branch here, and said her father deserves a medal for having driven that hunk of crap 450+ miles. My parents couldn't believe it when he got fired on a technicality - going 1 mph over the company policy limit, 65 mph - we think his super was just out to get him because he was paid more having made more while working in NH; they were quite pissed themselves and they hardly knew the guy. (Some other company must not have cared, he was offered another job within a week.) Needless to say, U-Haul has now become one of those ongoing gags that never seems to get old between us.

Long story short - use them, and don't say I didn't tell you so. You're on your own!

Why did you just change it from the Carolina's to Florida and Texas sweetheart? I mean sure, the Carolinas weren't mentioned on the list at all, but still, you said it, so it was true!!!!! And I'm sure that even though the list is from 2002, you are still right!

First off the list I linked to was released in 2004 for the 2003 year and was not from 2002. You have said repeatedly that Rochester was growing during that time yet they are nowhere on the list. How come? Even Buffalo and Detroit were on it.

If you look at the list released in 2005 covering 2004 you will see Carolina cities. In fact you will see that Charlotte is ranked number two in the whole country.

Susie, in fairness you should consider that using U-Haul's stats is probably the worst possibly methodology for determining if a city is growing. There may be a little correlation here and there but overall it doesn't mean that much.

HAHAHAHA! You guys make me laugh.

Columbus is a nice city. Been there many times. Reminds me new sprawl cities of the south but with some culture. But, it is still in the midwest.

Jerome....Columbus' businesses are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus,_Ohio
Scroll down to business.

Protourism....um in Albany everyone should know that GE is their major employer besides the government. Also, as our tourist expert here you should know that Saratoga Springs makes a fortune off of......tourism.

who hoe hoe, i never claimed in anyway to be an expert on tourism.
i just think its a vital part of a diverse economy and a long underexploited asset in a few places(particulary buffalo-niagara)

listen man, i didnt mean for this thread to go all whacko about columbus ohio,
it just got carried away.
atleast you guys all have a sense of humor about it.

First off the list I linked to was released in 2004 for the 2003 year and was not from 2002. You have said repeatedly that Rochester was growing during that time yet they are nowhere on the list. How come? Even Buffalo and Detroit were on it.

If you look at the list released in 2005 covering 2004 you will see Carolina cities. In fact you will see that Charlotte is ranked number two in the whole country.

You are right, I am wrong. I forgot that already. Thanks for reminding me Susie, you are such a thoughtfull person. You did have the Carolina's posted originaly and then changed it to Texas and Florida, but that's ok, because you said it, so it's true. You are right about everything and that is why I LOVE YOU!

Susie, in fairness you should consider that using U-Haul's stats is probably the worst possibly methodology for determining if a city is growing. There may be a little correlation here and there but overall it doesn't mean that much.
I was just using the link that North-Coast provided to me. Without his assistance I would have never known that Buffalo has net in-migration and we do not. Since the u-haul data is based upon actual paid transactions, and not an empty government formula that has been proven wrong in the past, I feel comfortable that there is some validity to it. BTW you know darn well if Rochester was on the list you and others on this board would be touting it as if it was the second coming.

I was just using the link that North-Coast provided to me. Without his assistance I would have never known that Buffalo has net in-migration and we do not. Since the u-haul data is based upon actual paid transactions, and not an empty government formula that has been proven wrong in the past, I feel comfortable that there is some validity to it. BTW you know darn well if Rochester was on the list you and others on this board would be touting it as if it was the second coming.

No I don't think we would be touting it. Someone brought this U-Haul thing up a year or two ago about Buffalo and we all basically dismissed it because the serious flaws in the methodology. Believe me there are no people in this world willing to grasp at any stupid rankings and run with it like Buffalonians. Just look and see Detroit on that rankings list. There is no other city in America hemoraging as much population as they are. You can't assume Detroit is growing from that ranking.

I did not bring it up it was a gift to me from North Coast, if you have issues with the data you will need to take them up with North Coast as I accept the data for what it is. Actual transactions and not estimates from one company.

BTW - The Detroit Metro is growing it is the Buffalo Metro that is hemoraging a larger percentage of it's population than any metro in the Country since 2000.

I did not bring it up it was a gift to me from North Coast, if you have issues with the data you will need to take them up with North Coast as I accept the data for what it is. Actual transactions and not estimates from one company.

BTW - The Detroit Metro is growing it is the Buffalo Metro that is hemoraging a larger percentage of it's population than any metro in the Country since 2000.

As the grantor of the aforementioned gift to Susie, I herebye accept full responsibility for having sent Susie to the U-Haul website. I cannot, however, accept any responsibility whatsoever for what Susie does with the data that she somehow found on a secure section of the U-Haul site, nor can I accept responsibility for the fact that Susie may now have shifted her wrath toward Buffalo.

State and local government workers in the Rochester area made roughly $5 more an hour in February 2005 than those in private industry, a new survey from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows.
A year ago, government workers averaged $24.08 an hour compared with $19.12 an hour for private sector employees. The National Compensation Survey excludes agriculture, private households, self-employed and federal government workers.
Government wages increased from 2004, while the average wage of employees in the private sector declined. A March 2004 National Compensation Survey shows employees in the private sector earned $19.31 an hour, while government staffers averaged $23.40 an hour.
Of the 36 occupations surveyed for the 2005 report, the highest paid private-sector employees were managers and administrators, who earned an average of $46.06 an hour. The highest paid government workers—earning an average of $44.10 an hour—were executives, administrators and managers.
In the private sector, cashiers earned the least, at $8.21 an hour. Among state and local government employees, teachers’ aides ranked lowest in terms of average wages, at $9.69 an hour.
Full-time workers in the Rochester area—Genesee, Livingston, Monroe, Ontario, Orleans and Wayne counties—overall averaged $21.31 an hour last February, compared with part-time workers who earned $11.83 an hour. Union workers earned an average of $21.65 an hour here.
The average salary for employees of private firms with 50 to 99 people was $17.80 an hour, compared with $22.57 for staffers of companies with more than 500 workers.
Annual salaries among all Rochester area workers increased less than one-tenth of 1 percent from 2004 to 2005. The 2004 survey shows average annual earnings of $41,262, while the 2005 survey shows $41,300.
The National Compensation Survey covered 242 firms representing more than 250,000 workers in the Rochester area.

nor can I accept responsibility for the fact that Susie may now have shifted her wrath toward Buffalo..

I have no wrath against Buffalo or Rochester. The writer stated that the u-haul data is invalid then made an inaccurate comment re Detroit which I corrected. If Uhaul data has no validity than BJFAN must be going by the census figures which show Buffalo not Detroit with the largest % loss in the nation. From my personal travels to Buffalo and Niagara Falls it would appear to me that the U haul figures are more accurate than the census ones. To me the Buffalo area appears to have put it worst days behind it. The Buffalo Development thread sure has a lot more new construction and business expansion both within and without the City limits than the Rochester boosters can put on this one. Even the ones that they tout here are primarily government funded and not private. Ren Center, MCC, Soccer Stadium, Bus Station - all government funded.

I did not bring it up it was a gift to me from North Coast, if you have issues with the data you will need to take them up with North Coast as I accept the data for what it is. Actual transactions and not estimates from one company.

BTW - The Detroit Metro is growing it is the Buffalo Metro that is hemoraging a larger percentage of it's population than any metro in the Country since 2000.

I don't need to take the issue to North Coast because you are the one interpretting the data. And I'm saying that you may be morphing the data (which isn't very reliable anyways) to fit your argument.

I did not realize that was for metro areas, I was thinking it was for the center city. In the case of city municipality size, Detroit loses the most.

And actually Buffalo metro isn't hemoraging population the most in the USA. That honor belongs to Pittsburgh with a loss from 1990 to 2000 of 36,000. We only lost 19,000. Rochester Metro grew by 3.5% or 35,000+ people. And could possibly overtake the Buff in 2010.

And actually Buffalo metro isn't hemoraging population the most in the USA. That honor belongs to Pittsburgh with a loss from 1990 to 2000 of 36,000. We only lost 19,000. Rochester Metro grew by 3.5% or 35,000+ people. And could possibly overtake the Buff in 2010.

As I clearly stated Buffalo is losing the most on a percentage basis you are using data going back 16 years which is meaningless today. I am using figures from this century not last. Don't worry about Rochester metro overtaking Bufalo, it's not going to happen. 1)monroe county is now losing population and 2) the census bureau removed Genesee county from the Rochester MSA. Thus based upon official 2000 census figures Buffalo Metro is at 1,171,000 and we are at 1,037,000. We would have to make up 134,000 in ten years not going to happen. Plus is you use CMA - the new Buffalo Cattaraugus CMSA has an even larger spread.

List of the 'Best Performing Cities" recorded by the Milken Institute.
The index, published annually by the California-based nonprofit economic think tank, ranks the top 200 metropolitan areas as well as a separate list for small cities. Job growth and wages are the key measurements of the ranking along with a measurement of technology.


For 2005, Buffalo leaped to no. 146, up from no. 173 a year ago but still trails other upstate metro areas -- Albany (no. 66, up from no. 133); Syracuse (no. 113, up from no. 149); and Utica-Rome (no. 138, up from no. 169).

Binghamton (no. 164, down from no. 176) and Rochester (no. 181, up from no. 182) trail Buffalo in the updated listing.

Milken places three Florida metro areas at the top of the index, lead by Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, which jumped to no. 1 from no. 31 a year ago.
On the small cities list, Ithaca ranked no. 35 out of 179 metro areas. The city, located in the Finger Lakes region, is new to the index in 2005.

Interestingly all but one or two of the cities that trail Rochester are located in either Ohio or Michigan.

The entire report can be found at www.milkeninstitute.com.

Rocguy - thanks for the private message yesterday, If I wasn't married I would take you up on it. At least now I know where the ROC in Rocguy comes from.


Rochester - Made for LOVIN

Ok, so Im going to be a hypocrite Rocguy.

Susie, I see why you hate Roc so much, because you never leave your house! Take a break from this thread! 142 posts and it looks like 40 of them in the past two days is enough! I will surmise you are a housewife, but it seems like its time to get a job, even if it is in retail. Now I think I know your type. Unhappy out of boredom, children bogging you down, husband makes enough to survive but not enjoy life. I say sell the pick up truck, and fly to NYC or LA. Spend a day on Rodeo Drive or 5th Ave and come back a different person. Indulge in the finer things in life and make new friends here in Rochester, spend a night at the Opera, Philharmonic or attend a charity ball. Join Oak Hill or Locust Hill Country Club and you'll come around. If you cant afford this lifestyle go back to school and make it happen.

Anyway, what some of you havent considered about the Miliken institute study is.... All the cities at the top of the list or higher than Rochester are cities that were nothing 10 years ago or hit their lowest point in the 70's and 80's. They can only go up! Rochester was in its heyday until 2000, that was our crest, now we are currently in a small slide down. Here's an analogy: Right now they are saying Hyundais and Kias have 90% better reliability than they did in the past. Ok so those cars used to break down every day and now they break down every 10 days. Wow! Thats a huge improvement, but you still drive a piece of crap, that breaks down less. Woo Hoo! They can only go up because the car was nothing before. The same with all of the cities higher than Rochester on list. We were thriving when all the others were failing. I am happy to see our neighbor cities gaining ground, it can only help the business climate in upstate New York.

Susie.....my parents know the Nothnagle's personally. The elders retired and moved to Florida as almost all old people do, and their children received a bid for the company that they couldnt refuse. As any good entreprenuer dreams of, if you build a business to success and someone offers you the right dollar, you sell to make a profit. The elders and their children all still have their summer homes here in Pittsford. The same as Larry Glazer does, owner of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, a Rochester native that summers here in Rochester and winters in Tampa. It is a dream lifestyle that anyone would take advantage of.

Susie....The Razorshark's, the ABA's (minor league basketball) team here has the highest attendance in all of the league, and is gaining attendance with every game. Dont say we cant support major sports, the numbers tell a different story. I dont know what happened to the first team, I wasnt alive in 1904 or whenever it was to see the demise. Maybe the owner back then lost money in the Great Depression and had to sell the team. The recent Sabres game was poorly advertised that is why it had small attendance, that was quoted in the paper, I love sports, and didnt remember until the day of the game, because of a radio ad. And Arena Footbal failed because it is stupid, not because of Rochester. Franchisees in other cities didnt make it either, Rochesterians spend their money on quality beacuse we have a more intelligent population. And the Rochester franchise was owned by a guy in Buffalo, so if his stock portfolio slipped that year, of course he is going to close the location that isnt in his hometown with a shorter commute. The Buffalo team couldnt make that much more than our team did.

As I clearly stated Buffalo is losing the most on a percentage basis you are using data going back 16 years which is meaningless today. I am using figures from this century not last. Don't worry about Rochester metro overtaking Bufalo, it's not going to happen. 1)monroe county is now losing population and 2) the census bureau removed Genesee county from the Rochester MSA. Thus based upon official 2000 census figures Buffalo Metro is at 1,171,000 and we are at 1,037,000. We would have to make up 134,000 in ten years not going to happen. Plus is you use CMA - the new Buffalo Cattaraugus CMSA has an even larger spread.

I don't think using data showing the difference from 1990-2000 is that meaningless, it shows a trend that most places are experiencing. I doubt there is gonna be a big difference from 2000-2010. Besides current data doesn't exist until 2010, we only have projections right now.

BTW do they include Cattaraugus County in the B-lo metro now?

I will surmise you are a housewife, but it seems like its time to get a job, .
I surmise that I earn more money per year than you do. And I bet I am correct.

Too many posts for you then you must hate Rocguy. My posts 48 per month. Juvenile Rocguy's posts 338 per month.

Anyway, what some of you havent considered about the Miliken institute study is.... All the cities at the top of the list or higher than Rochester are cities that were nothing 10 years ago or hit their lowest point in the 70's and 80's. .

You are already making excuses for Rochester on this one even though no one has commented on it? That is sad. Of course the cites ahead of Rochester were in trouble years ago, cities that were propserous years ago are also ahead of Rochester. You know why, it's because almost every city in the Country is ahead of Rochester you goofball. There are 180 cities ahead of us and only 19 behind us.


Rochester was in its heyday until 2000, that was our crest, now we are currently in a small slide down. .

I was here our heyday ended around 1980 when Kodak lost the instant camera lawsuit. It has been a downhill ride ever since and now the ride is really starting to pick up steam


Susie....The Razorshark's, the ABA's (minor league basketball) team here has the highest attendance in all of the league, .

So 354 fans per game is big time?

BTW do they include Cattaraugus County in the B-lo metro now?
Not in the MSA but it is now in the CMSA or CMA if you prefer.

As I clearly stated Buffalo is losing the most on a percentage basis you are using data going back 16 years which is meaningless today. I am using figures from this century not last. Don't worry about Rochester metro overtaking Bufalo, it's not going to happen. 1)monroe county is now losing population and 2) the census bureau removed Genesee county from the Rochester MSA. Thus based upon official 2000 census figures Buffalo Metro is at 1,171,000 and we are at 1,037,000. We would have to make up 134,000 in ten years not going to happen. Plus is you use CMA - the new Buffalo Cattaraugus CMSA has an even larger spread.

not to mention that Buffalo's Metro also over laps into Canada by another 300,000

i love internet forums.
everyone gets so worked up.
i could join a website about cheesecake and all the forumers would still be pissed off.

Don't worry, Susie. Move to somewhere cool like Birmingham, Nashville, Atlanta (well, scratch that one)... They'll appreciate you ;)

when are you guys going to start posting some develpment stuff on here

i love internet forums.
everyone gets so worked up.
i could join a website about cheesecake and all the forumers would still be pissed off.

Cheesecake will kill you what are you tryng to do eat yourself into an early grave?

Too many posts for you then you must hate Rocguy. My posts 48 per month. Juvenile Rocguy's posts 338 per month.

In Rocguys defense....he is in High School, you are not. People in High School are NOT supposed to have a job, they are supposed to study, have fun, and play sports. If you are going to put him down tell him he should be studying instead of posting to the thread.

You are already making excuses for Rochester on this one even though no one has commented on it? That is sad. Of course the cites ahead of Rochester were in trouble years ago, cities that were propserous years ago are also ahead of Rochester. You know why, it's because almost every city in the Country is ahead of Rochester you goofball. There are 180 cities ahead of us and only 19 behind us.

I thought that these blog things were for debate...I offered my opinion
a different take on the subject....no excuses. I dont try to rub off my angry hatred of life on others.

I was here our heyday ended around 1980 when Kodak lost the instant camera lawsuit. It has been a downhill ride ever since and now the ride is really starting to pick up steam

If our heyday ended in 1980 then THANK GOD I WAS BORN AROUND THEN. They must have built I-390 north of the 104 and I-590 in the 80's not because the population was growing there, but because they were preparing for the mass exodus of all the people in that area. The state needed to give people an easy way to leave. They also must have expanded Greece Ridge Mall, Eastview Mall, and built Medley Centre (Irondequoit Mall) in the 90's because they were preparing for everyone to purchase their leaving supplies there. They must have built the convention center, built Frontier Field, and expanded the Blue Cross Arena in those 20 years because they wanted a place to throw a goodbye party for all of the Rochesterians leaving. They must have built around 2 million+ homes in those twenty years because they wanted to give people something to look at on their way out of Rochester. I can go on, but this is boring, THANK GOD I grew up in our time of downward slide.

So 354 fans per game is big time?[/QUOTE]

I don't know the numbers for the games, im just quoting what I hear on RNEWS, the Radio and what I read in the D and C. And no, I do not quote racist hicks like Bob Lonsberry. Im done.

is that why all the cheesecake forumers are so pissed?^^

when are you guys going to start posting some develpment stuff on here

whe there is something being built other than that stupid bridge in downtown.

when are you guys going to start posting some develpment stuff on here
We can't post what we don't have. If you have some real private development news for us then post it. We are in an economic desert here.

Birmingham would love to have you guys - over 2,000 units of residential are either being built or are proposed downtown as we speak.

Join the partay :D

You are already making excuses for Rochester on this one even though no one has commented on it? That is sad. Of course the cites ahead of Rochester were in trouble years ago, cities that were propserous years ago are also ahead of Rochester. You know why, it's because almost every city in the Country is ahead of Rochester you goofball. There are 180 cities ahead of us and only 19 behind us.
Sure cities that were behind us at one time are now ahead of us, everyone is ahead of us. Except for the 19 in Ohio and Michigan

If our heyday ended in 1980 then THANK GOD I WAS BORN AROUND THEN. They also must have expanded Greece Ridge Mall, Eastview Mall, and built Medley Centre (Irondequoit Mall) in the 90's because they were preparing for everyone to purchase their leaving supplies there. They must have built around 2 million+ homes in those twenty years because they wanted to give people something to look at on their way out of Rochester. .


Irondequoit Mall was built because the developer did not realize we were tanking - that is what led to it's downfall into the disgrace it is now. The fact that you were born in the 80's might explain your outlook. You have never experienced a prosperous Rochester so you have no reference point to see how far we have fallen.

2 million homes for 735,000 people you better go back to studying with rocky.? There have been less than 36,000 homes built in Monroe County in the last 20 years which is about how many were built in Orlando Florida last year alone. You know Orlando don't you, in 1970 our metro was twice their size, now the are more than twice ours.

But Orlando...Please. Ick!

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm cheesecake :drool:

...Hyundais...
Tee hee hee. You said Hyundai.

If they have in fact gained quality, now I'm looking for them to stop naming their cars after trendy cliche southwestern cities. Stick to your roots. Call me when the P'yŏngyang comes out.

...The recent Sabres game was poorly advertised that is why it had small attendance...
Yes, indeed it was poorly advertised, even around here. And Adelphia/MSG didn't even get the start time right. Add to the fact that they completely underachieved against a hapless team that a few Bantams could probably beat, and you're fortunate you didn't go. I still want that 2.5 hours of my life back that I wasted in front of the tube.
...2 million homes for 735,000 people...
I think (hope) that he was being slightly facetious there. There probably aren't 2 million homes between myself and Syracuse, let alone Rochester itself.

2 million homes!?!?!?!?! i somehow seriously doubt that, but you may be right, though I would be shocked

Rochester people, wtf is up with all of you? post some news, developments or something. All I see is you people slinging cow shit at each other...grow up.

Ok, so Im going to be a hypocrite Rocguy.

Susie, I see why you hate Roc so much, because you never leave your house! Take a break from this thread! 142 posts and it looks like 40 of them in the past two days is enough! I will surmise you are a housewife, but it seems like its time to get a job, even if it is in retail. Now I think I know your type. Unhappy out of boredom, children bogging you down, husband makes enough to survive but not enjoy life. I say sell the pick up truck, and fly to NYC or LA. Spend a day on Rodeo Drive or 5th Ave and come back a different person. Indulge in the finer things in life and make new friends here in Rochester, spend a night at the Opera, Philharmonic or attend a charity ball. Join Oak Hill or Locust Hill Country Club and you'll come around. If you cant afford this lifestyle go back to school and make it happen.

Anyway, what some of you havent considered about the Miliken institute study is.... All the cities at the top of the list or higher than Rochester are cities that were nothing 10 years ago or hit their lowest point in the 70's and 80's. They can only go up! Rochester was in its heyday until 2000, that was our crest, now we are currently in a small slide down. Here's an analogy: Right now they are saying Hyundais and Kias have 90% better reliability than they did in the past. Ok so those cars used to break down every day and now they break down every 10 days. Wow! Thats a huge improvement, but you still drive a piece of crap, that breaks down less. Woo Hoo! They can only go up because the car was nothing before. The same with all of the cities higher than Rochester on list. We were thriving when all the others were failing. I am happy to see our neighbor cities gaining ground, it can only help the business climate in upstate New York.

Susie.....my parents know the Nothnagle's personally. The elders retired and moved to Florida as almost all old people do, and their children received a bid for the company that they couldnt refuse. As any good entreprenuer dreams of, if you build a business to success and someone offers you the right dollar, you sell to make a profit. The elders and their children all still have their summer homes here in Pittsford. The same as Larry Glazer does, owner of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, a Rochester native that summers here in Rochester and winters in Tampa. It is a dream lifestyle that anyone would take advantage of.

Susie....The Razorshark's, the ABA's (minor league basketball) team here has the highest attendance in all of the league, and is gaining attendance with every game. Dont say we cant support major sports, the numbers tell a different story. I dont know what happened to the first team, I wasnt alive in 1904 or whenever it was to see the demise. Maybe the owner back then lost money in the Great Depression and had to sell the team. The recent Sabres game was poorly advertised that is why it had small attendance, that was quoted in the paper, I love sports, and didnt remember until the day of the game, because of a radio ad. And Arena Footbal failed because it is stupid, not because of Rochester. Franchisees in other cities didnt make it either, Rochesterians spend their money on quality beacuse we have a more intelligent population. And the Rochester franchise was owned by a guy in Buffalo, so if his stock portfolio slipped that year, of course he is going to close the location that isnt in his hometown with a shorter commute. The Buffalo team couldnt make that much more than our team did.

That was well justified Hypocrisy my good man. Well deserved too. I have no need to lash out at her any more because it's obvious now that she is way out of left field and nobody takes anything she says seriously anymore. You can keep at it all you want though, I'm sure all the crap she says about Rochester (a city that you and I both love) you have plenty you could say. Just don't get too carried away and get banned from the site.

lol. can you believe she actually said this

I have no wrath against Buffalo or Rochester

and I'm the King of Antarctica.

when are you guys going to start posting some develpment stuff on here

Right now:




4 projects get COMIDA tax breaks

Incentives OK'd for UR Breast Care Center, union facility, hotels


Nishad Majmudar
Staff writer


(February 22, 2006) — A new women's health center was among a handful of economic development projects approved for tax breaks by Monroe County economic development authorities Tuesday.

Calkins Corporate Park LLC plans to construct a 30,000-square-foot office facility off Calkins Road in Henrietta. The facility will be leased to the University of Rochester Medical Center to house a new Breast Care Center.

The $3.2 million project, pending approval from the town of Henrietta, would receive tax breaks through the County of Monroe Industrial Development Agency, or COMIDA, which approved the incentive Tuesday during its monthly meeting.

The Breast Care Center would be operated jointly by UR Medical Center's imaging sciences department, Strong Memorial Hospital and Highland Hospital and would provide breast imaging and diagnostic services, including screening mammograms and breast ultrasounds.

Highland Hospital spokesman John Turner said he could not offer specifics because the project is still in its preliminary stages.

COMIDA officials also approved incentives for three other investment projects, including a labor organization's new training center and two hotels.


The Plumbers and Pipefitters Local 13 union will spend $1.6 million to purchase and renovate an old office building and warehouse at 1850 Mt. Read Blvd. for a meeting hall and training facility. The union says the greater training capacity will lead to an increase in union membership by 80 people over five years.

E.J. Del Monte Corp. plans to spend $8.3 million to renovate public spaces, meeting rooms, a fitness room and other amenities in an existing, 210-room Marriott hotel at 1890 W. Ridge Road in Greece. The town of Greece must approve that project.

Webster Hospitality Development LLC will construct a 68,000-square-foot Holiday Inn Express along Route 104 in Webster, citing growing demand by Xerox Corp. for hotel space. Webster Hospitality Development says the $11.1million project will ultimately produce 20 full-time jobs in the hotel.

We can't post what we don't have. If you have some real private development news for us then post it. We are in an economic desert here.

I (and others) been posting economic development news articles on this thread for months if you failed to address them or take them serioulsy, that's your own fault.

right on, nice to see some stuff going on.

by the way, tommorow night there is a meeting at the ferry terminal to discuss its future use. i believe its at 7pm.
a new marina and a boutique hotel are two things on the table

right on, nice to see some stuff going on.

by the way, tommorow night there is a meeting at the ferry terminal to discuss its future use. i believe its at 7pm.
a new marina and a boutique hotel are two things on the table

lol, I KNOW, I posted the article and was talking about that yesterday, but then everyone began bickering about Columbus Ohio, moving trucks and whatever else!

Remember this?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com...10338/1002/NEWS

Concepts envision hotel, marina at port


Brian Sharp
Staff writer


(February 21, 2006) — A small boutique hotel and an inlet behind Ontario Beach Park for a new marina are among proposals that will be presented Thursday for the Port of Rochester.

Planning consultant Sasaki Associates Inc. of Watertown, Mass., will be in town to unveil three concept proposals for the city-owned, 30-acre Charlotte development site, now mostly a parking lot. Options show parking garages supporting street-level shops and mid- to upper-end condominiums.

Sasaki officials met with city staffers last week to preview the scenarios.

"Some scenarios had green space, open space, others had a small boutique hotel," City Councilman Robert Stevenson said.

One marina option would cut a new waterway behind Ontario Beach Park from the Genesee River nearly to Lake Avenue. "Studies show there is a very definite market for more marina space around here," Stevenson said. "Basically, as you build it they will come. My biggest question is 'How the heck do you keep (the inlet marina) flushed out?'"

This week's presentation comes after 20 years of discussion about what to do with the port area. The city hired Sasaki Associates last fall to design an urban village and year-round tourist destination. The target area surrounds the ferry terminal and is bordered roughly by Lake Avenue, Ontario Beach Park, the CSX rail line and the Genesee River. Mayor Robert Duffy, going against staff advice, has asked Sasaki to include the terminal in its planning.

Stevenson said all scenarios emphasized residential development filling the upper floors of what could be six new buildings. Wide streets — including a new north-south road — would allow curbside parking, officials said. And all scenarios included a marina for boats at least 20 to 40 feet long. Sasaki also suggested building two parking garages dug into the sloping landscape and rising as much as three levels, officials said.

The goal, Stevenson said, is to achieve intensive development without disrupting views of the water. Julio Vazquez, the city's commissioner of community development, said the designs would tie in with the lighthouse.

Kurt Ritchie owns Scuttlebutt's, 431 River St., and had the catering and gift shop contract on the high-speed ferry.

"I've been here 15 years," Ritchie said, explaining that he opened in Charlotte expecting the redevelopment to take root years ago.

"I would love to see the village-type atmosphere where people are walking, shopping. I don't think one major attraction is going to make it. I think it needs to be a lot of small attractions."

Stevenson said the current street alignment would remain, with the acreage divided into eight plots. Housing would cater to empty nesters and be oriented to the lake. At least one scenario called for intense housing development on the riverfront immediately south of the terminal, Stevenson said.

wanna know why the ferry teriminal, the ferry or any other idea using that general area wont ever work? because the city of Rochester can't pull it's dick out of business...this is so god damned sad!

Rochester, fight crime, trim taxes and leave business and commerce alone!!!

buff city, i agree.

fortunately the new mayor seems pretty serious about keeping public money out of these types of projects.
lets see if he sticks to his guns.

You all accuse me of being negative so here is your chance to convince me that the City of Rochester is not dead.

Please list all of the Private non-governmental development projects that exceeded $25 million dollars within the City limits in the last five years. If we are doing so well as you all seem to think the list should be quite extensive. Again I am talking about within the City limits of Rochester. I am talking new projects bricks and mortor not equipment purchases for a hospital or factory that is needed just to replace changing technology. It is ok if there is IDA assistance but there must still be $25 million or more in private financing.

there weren't many but a few^^

http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/WireFeedRedirect?cf=GlobeInvestor/config&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&date=20050609&archive=bwire&slug=20050609005403

you may need to cut and paste that.
35 million dollar bausch and lomb expansion. 200 jobs
the cornhill landing project was a 20+ million dollar project. not sure if it hit 25.

there weren't many but a few^^

http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/WireFeedRedirect?cf=GlobeInvestor/config&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&date=20050609&archive=bwire&slug=20050609005403

you may need to cut and paste that.
35 million dollar bausch and lomb expansion. 200 jobs
the cornhill landing project was a 20+ million dollar project. not sure if it hit 25.
B&L has less jobs here now than 5 years ago so I would say it does not count.
Cornhill is less than $25 million so you basically found nothing.

doesn't matter if they have less jobs than they had five years ago.
they have more jobs than they had one year ago.
furthermore they are investing 25 million in new facilities and 10 million in renovation of existing ones.

i think the truth is that you didnt expect anyone to find even that much so now your going to try and play it off like its bullshit.
i've criticised you less than many people on this board because i thought you made some valid contributions. i now am realizing that you are nothing but a full time nay-sayer with nothing to contribute but anger and frustration.

you are so quick to point out the negative(which you should, no reason to be silent) but when something positive comes to light you act with a fury to shut it down quick.

if you don't like the people on this board- leave!
if you don't like rochester - LEAVE!

not a tough concept.

Don't get mad at me, that the only major project so far this century involves a company that has less workers now than 5 years ago. If you think that is progress then you are well suited for the City that Rochester has become.

You say I only point out the negative, then you should point out the positive. List the major projects that show we are turning things around. DO IT. So far all you have is a COMIDA subsidised corporate welfare to a company that has less workers here now than 5 years ago. You can call that progress, I do not.

I just looked at the Buffalo Site and they already have dozens of projects listed in answer to the same question. C'mon RaChaCha put up or shut up.

rochester's economy is not in good shape- we agree on this.
downtown has long suffered a continuous decline- we agree on this.

however there have been more privately funded projects in downtown rochester in the last 24 months then there has in any 24 month period since the B&L building was finished in 1995.
sagamore on east, corn hill landing, renovation of every damn building in the cascade district, the turning of that ugly orange building(recently painted from white) into market rate loft housing.
none of these are large projects and they certainly will do little to save rochester but they are real projects that have already happened, using private funds.

So what you are saying is that there have been no major projects in Rochester this century and none are on the horizon. Thank you for agreeing with me.

doesn't matter if they have less jobs than they had five years ago.


It will when it's your job.

next time you quote me finish the sentence please.

"doesn't matter if they have less jobs than they had five years ago.
they have more jobs than they had one year ago.
furthermore they are investing 25 million in new facilities and 10 million in renovation of existing ones."

you are really good at twisting facts to make yourself look smart and witty.

i stand by what i said, if you have such a big problem with rochester than freaking leave!

OK here is your full quote:

next time you quote me finish the sentence please.

"doesn't matter if they have less jobs than they had five years ago.
they have more jobs than they had one year ago.
:weirdo:

So what you are saying is to hell with all the people they screwed and lives they've sent into disarray as long as they are going to bring back a small percentage of the number they got rid of we should give them corporate welfare? We should say they are a wonderful company? We should lie and call it economic development?

That is just nuts !!!

Have another it'll clear your thinking. :cheers:

OK here is your full quote:


:weirdo:

So what you are saying is to hell with all the people they screwed and lives they've sent into disarray as long as they are going to bring back a small percentage of the number they got rid of we should give them corporate welfare? We should say they are a wonderful company? We should lie and call it economic development?

That is just nuts !!!

Have another it'll clear your thinking. :cheers:

Bausch is a GREAT company! The recent consolidation of their R&D facilities back to Rochester is good news for the local economy.

Companies need to be lean and mean to compete in the global economy. Jobs for life are a thing of the past. Unfortunatley, it's the lower-skilled workers who get hit hard when companies scale back. Education, networking and experience are key to remaiining gainfuly employed.

:drunk:
Again with the apologies, you Rochester boosters really crack me up with your blind loyalty. You are always ready with another reason why the bad news is really good news. Always ready to explain away any negativity. I asked both threads a simple question the Buffalo guys listed projects the Rochester guys came up with one item and that was for a company that received IDA money to hire back less people than they got rid of just a few years before. And this you are touting as real economic progress.

So what you are saying is to hell with all the people they screwed and lives they've sent into disarray as long as they are going to bring back a small percentage of the number they got rid of we should give them corporate welfare? We should say they are a wonderful company? We should lie and call it economic development?

That is just nuts !!!

Keep buying the spin from Maggie as your jobs and families move away. Stay in denial - the politicians want you there. They know that if they admit there is a problem they might be blamed for causing it or worse they might have to try and really fix it. And they can't do that because it would cost them power.


Have another it'll clear your thinking. :cheers:

I should take mise Cleo's job. I saw this shit coming. And it was LONG in coming. Susie, you've been trying to signal me out on this forum for months, knocking any development news I had and twisting every possible thing, even positive ones like B&L adding jobs, into something negative. YOU are the oddball out on this one Susie, it's becoming clear to everyone else and it's aboud damn time (not calling the rest of you slow, jus calling Susie extremely irritating). Now let's reiderate the TRUTH of everyone's argument on this forum:

-EVERYONE on this forum, as far as I know, INLCUDING MYSELF, agrees that Rochester has seen MUCH better days, and is going through some rough times.

-The point that I HAVE ALWAYS been trying to make, and I'm sure what everyone else on here (except of course, Susie) Is that while Rochester has many problems now, and isn't in great shape. However, THERE IS HOPE. Susie believes, as she has made PERFECTLY CLEAR, and could not possibly deny, that there is NO hope for Rochester and that it will decline forever. That's bull

-Everything that anyone posts on this thread that has any possitive news about the area at all, be it jobs created, or projects in planning, real estate sales, Susie shoots down, and then says that we are all (especially me) claiming that Rochester is doing great right now. THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE SAYING AND SHE KNOWS IT.

In summary:

Susie has a bitter, cold, hatred of Rochester for whatever reason, probably an emotional or psychological issue. She wants everything that is said about the area to be negative, so that's what she does. And if anyone says anything possitive AT ALL, she misquotes them or twists their words into something naive and unreal, in a pathetic attempt to "prove her point" (either that or she ignores it all together or totally changes to another negative subject). If anyone else, besides susie, disagrees with me at all; please explain to me what you think the truth is.

As for development news, corn hill landing is opening soon, and they are going to unveil the plans (hopefully that means pictures in the D&C that I can post on here) for the port area later tonight. I'd post the article but this post is already long enough.

http://www.buckprop.com/Announcements.asp

This is Buckingham Commons, it will be located right next to Frontier Field (Redwings Baseball) and Paetec Park (Rhinos Soccer.) There was a great story with pics on it in the paper copy of the RBJ last week. The roof-top park will be its greatest selling point, but the building is coming together well. The article also stated that a major tenant has been signed, a CPA firm to locate on the entire 2nd floor. Be sure to check out the 2nd links upper left for "Available Space," then choose "Residential." Michaels Stern and Water Street Commons are nice spaces with very affordable living as well.

http://www.cornhilllanding.com/

Corn Hill Landing is 80% done! There are already tenants living there, and there are an awful lot of luxury cars pulling out of the development. This is just another complex to help make downtown Rochester into an exclusive place to live in Monroe county. It's beautiful and the businesses there are opening up soon, the wine and liquor store will be open by months end, a sign says. Plus: there is underground parking!

http://rochesterdowntown.com/living...ilding_r.php?77

The East End Lofts are really nice, huge and affordably priced.

http://www.templebuilding.com/

The temple building has the most amazing penthouses with Jacuzzi's and sauna showers. More underground parking, no cleaning snow off, getting wet in the rain, or have the concierge get your car. I'm VERY picky and I'd live here.

http://www.flowercitymanagement.com...ing/index.shtml
http://www.flowercitymanagement.com/index.shtml

Medical Arts building is very nice with the best part being the 9th floor patios, gas fireplaces, and sunrooms. There is a sweet looking deli moving into the bottom floor as well. Plus: Underground parking. Also check out the Chapel Hill apts on the 2nd link and the other current projects.

http://www.thesagamoreoneast.com/

The Sagamore is a great example of how downtown and the east end is becoming so exclusive. These condos can be purchased for $350,000-$700,000 and offer upscale amenities and accomodations. Now all 18 are completely sold! A nice article was in the RBJ last week that there will be an upscale grocery store going in similar to Dean and Deluca in NYC, a high end restaurant, and 2 other businesses.
Other condos/apartments to purchase around downtown will be the upcoming Capron South Lofts (Off South Ave, finished in 2007) no price yet but believed to be $100,000-$200,000, the soon to be constructed Charlotte St Townhomes (built behind the Sagamore on Charlotte St, starting in Spring 2006) priced from $200,000-$350,000, and the Grove Place townhomes, (across from the Eastman Theatre) priced from $250,000-$300,000. These were built in 2001, sold out in 6 months and are really beautiful.

http://rochesterdowntown.com/living...ilding_r.php?39

The Harry Forman building looks to be a future asset as well.

These are some links I tend to use to access apts:
http://rochesterdowntown.com/living...esidential.html
http://www.rochestercityliving.com/default.asp
There are good links to the landmark society and city website as well on the second page.

Oh and the other day for development I forgot about the Troup-Howell bridge
http://www.trouphowellbridge.com/
and the rebuilding of West Ridge Road around Maplewood is beautiful
http://www.rebuildwestridgeroad.com/
http://www.rhinossoccer.com/stadium/

Some amazing shots of Paetec Park, opening in June 2006 to house the soon to be MLS Rochester Rhinos. It looks like they have not received the $ from the state for the luxury boxes yet, but they believe that by 2007 the luxury boxes should be in. It will be nice to sit in the much needed boxes and have the help there serve you while you enjoy the game. The 2 billion NYS surplus this year included the cash for the luxury boxes, we will wait to see if the budget passes.

http://www.rensquare.org/

Beautiful site for Renaissance Square. I wish I got the online version of www.rochesterbusinessjournal.com. There was a great article about how Renaissance Square WILL happen. Funding began in 2004 and they already have 157.9 million of the needed 230 million for the center. Maggie Brooks is quoted that residents of Rochester will see a building going up by Fall of 2007. Demolition could begin as early as Spring 2006 of the current dilapidated buildings. When you check out the site be sure to look at "Preliminary Concepts for Renaissance Square Presented" under the "news" section and look at the famed Moshe Safdie's presentation visuals.
http://www.rensquare.org/data/NewsD...ntation_9_7.pdf


http://www.sector4cdc.org/brooks/siteplan.html

Brooks landing will be a haven for U of R students and will give them a small refuge in an area that was mostly dominated by ghetto people not that long ago. Those people have been mostly cleansed of the area and as the buildings rise, more students will move into off campus housing. Groundbreaking has already taken place and the buildings will begin going up in Spring 2006. Many landlords have already began buying up the older homes in the area and started fixing them up in anticipation of students wanting to live around the development. (My 22 year old friend is even looking into purchasing some homes to rent to students.)

http://cityscape.cityofrochester.go...wcroft/home.htm

Cityscape is a project that will take place every three years and will look to improve areas around Rochester. After the land is cleared and the homes are built, a well known Rochester practice of "Homearama" is held. This is when a state of the art home is built, showcased, and then sold to the highest bidder. It creates "Wisteria" lane type developments all around Rochester and has taken place for more than 30 years in the Rochester suburbs. This was the first time a city development was taken on. The 2007 Cityscape will be in the "PLEX" neighborhood. (Plymouth-Exchange) Where 28 million worth of market rate apts and homes are being built. The apts are already done, people moved in this fall. (No website yet)

Susie.....blah blah blah your predictable posts are becoming so boring.
Tomorrow everyone I will post 10 new links I found about development, spending and jobs. Dont you think 25 million is a bit high, this is Rochester, not NYC. Nothing here costs 25 million unless its the size of Renaissance Square (230+ million.) I believe 10 million would be a better number. Find projects costing that. Corn Hill landing only cost 20 million and it covers 9 acres. Even in Westchester Trumps new housing and golf course is only costing him 23 million. If these are the links you want Ill keep them coming, I just figured everyone reads all the same news outlets that I do and its old news.

If 25 million is not too high for the Buffalo thread it shouldn't be too high for this one. None of the projects you listed are over $25 million. Ren Center is a public project footed by the taxpayers just like the Ferry was and it will be just as successful. Why are there no private entities willing to invest 25 million in our city when they will in Buffalo? Same weather, same tax structure, same state regulations. What gives? Must be the local governments.

"http://rochesterdowntown.com/living...ilding_r.php?77"
"http://cityscape.cityofrochester.go...wcroft/home.htm"

^links don't work.


That Temple Building is awesome, I think those lofts/penthouses blow away anything we have here in Buffalo.

Planning consultant Sasaki Associates Inc. of Watertown, Mass., will unveil details of three concept proposals for the Port of Rochester today during a public meeting in the terminal building.

Some options for the site include a new marina; high-density residential, market-rate housing; and a three-level parking ramp and boutique hotel. The city-owned, 30-acre Charlotte development site is now mostly a parking lot.

Tonight's presentation comes after 20 years of discussion about what to do with Rochester's port area.

The city hired Sasaki Associates last fall to design an urban village and year-round tourist destination. The target area surrounds the ferry terminal and is bordered roughly by Lake Avenue, Ontario Beach Park, the CSX rail line and the Genesee River. Mayor Robert Duffy asked Sasaki to include the terminal in its planning.

The meeting will be from 7 to 8:30 p.m. today in the departure hall at the Port of Rochester terminal building in Charlotte.

A final conceptual design plan for the site should be completed by June, according to city officials.

If all goes as planned, town residents could see a brand-new Wegmans grocery store on Mt. Read Boulevard by September 2007.

A concept plan for the new 105,000-square-foot store was unveiled Wednesday before the Greece Planning Board.

The proposal calls for knocking down the existing Wegmans and Chase-Pitkin stores at 3737 Mt. Read Blvd. and replacing both with a single grocery store that is turned 90 degrees from the existing structures, said Arthur Pires, project manager with Wegmans Food Markets Inc.

Wegmans announced in early October that it would close all 14 of its Chase-Pitkin Home & Garden Centers because it could not compete with national home center powerhouses Home Depot and Lowe's.

"By June, if we get all the approvals, demolition on the existing buildings could begin," said Pires of the Mt. Read project, adding that Wegmans had not finalized the building's design. "But our intent is to use the latest and greatest we have and are building in other markets."

Board members asked about the site's lighting, parking, landscaping and drainage plans.

"We may not have all the answers now, but it is a good time to gather the questions," said Alvin I. Fisher Jr., board chairman.

Pires said the Chase-Pitkin will likely be demolished first and construction on the new building would begin while the existing store remains open. But, he said, there could be a gap of about four months without a store on the site.

The Wegmans project is in its earliest stages, and no board approvals were requested or granted at Wednesday's meeting.

In other business, the board postponed until March 8 requests from developers for approval of a Walgreens drugstore on West Ridge Road, and a BJ's Wholesale Club in the Canal Ponds industrial park. A proposed senior housing development on North Greece Road was tabled pending resolution of drainage and other issues.

The board did approve construction of a one-story, 24,000-square-foot office building at 1136 and 1144 North Greece Road.

Bausch & Lomb Inc. says it has begun the U.S. launch of its PureVision Multi-Focal contact lens, a soft contact lens that functions as a sort of bifocal.

B&L, which made the announcement this morning at the SECO International 2006 optometric education conference in Atlanta, said it is currently outfitting optometrists with trial sets of the new lenses.

The PureVision Multi-Focal is designed for people with presbyopia, a condition in which vision quality for both long- and short-range sight is diminished.

The lens is the last to be released from B&L's silicone hydrogel product portfolio. Silicone hydrogel is a material the contact lens industry has aggressively pursued because of its reportedly increased comfort and health benefits to lens wearers.

B&L, headquartered in Rochester, also makes a PureVision single-vision spherical lens and a toric lens for people with astigmatism.

...Why are there no private entities willing to invest 25 million in our city when they will in Buffalo? ...Must be the local governments.
Must be something else. It's well documented about our 50+ (or however many) jurisdictions and 341 local politicians. If you've got a clunker more cumbersome than that, I'd like to see it. If that is the case, you guys should be proud that you'd managed so far to hang onto 210k+ residents.

Hey I actually have more time to post today that I thought...sorry some of the links didnt work, that was from an old post.

If the links dont work just type them in manually, but heres some help.
http://rochesterdowntown.com/living/search_residential.html

I dont really know what any of the projects cost, I dont really care either, just that there is some progress. What you have to remember is that Rochester consists of more than just the city, it includes all the suburbs. I wouldnt live in Rochester if Pittsford, Brighton, Mendon, and Fairport didn't exist. There are multiple big $ projects going on there right now. Columbus, Charlotte, and Atlanta would be a dump too if it wasnt for their nice suburbs. But I love downtown, where the most progress is being made, so here I go:

http://rochesterdowntown.com/img/detail_photos/0371_Kirstein_001.jpg Here is the Kirstein Building the newest building to get rehabbed in the St Paul quarter. It has a 2007 move in date and should be pretty nice.

http://rochesterdowntown.com/img/detail_photos/0301_214andrew_001.jpg This is the Andrews Building. My friend lives there. It is such cheap rent and is undergoing rehab in th common areas while the residents live there. My friends apt has an entire wall of windows that overlook the skyline, it is beautiful for only about $750 a month and about 2000 square feet.

http://rochesterdowntown.com/img/detail_photos/0381_Davies_002.jpg This is the Riverview lofts, a NYC developer is investing a lot of money to create an amazing place to live. I dont remember the price, but I believe it is high...if that does something for you.

http://rochesterdowntown.com/img/detail_photos/0339_116StPaul_001.jpg This is the former Harry Forman Building. Daniel Morgenstern owns it (The owner of Clover lanes, stock multimillionaire) and is turning it into some of the poshest apts in Rochester, they will marvel the Sagamore on East, which I wish I had the time to take live pictures of, it is just amazing!

http://www.rnyoffices.com/images/St%20Paul%20building5.jpg
One of my favorite buildings, the loft apartments are build to suit, and there is a brand new bike shop on the bottom floor.

http://rochesterdowntown.com/img/detail_photos/0357_Chevy%20Place_002.jpg Lets not forget Chevy Place, opened in 2001. I know it was VERY expensive to construct and its affordable living allows many young people to live right behind Spot Coffee.

Water Street Commons on Water Street in the St Paul Quarter is a huge undertaking as well and Corn Hill Landing has an update. It is almost complete: http://rochesterbusinessjournal.com/fullarticle.cfm?sdid=59182

And here is an undertaking by the grove place neighborhood to beautify downtown: http://www.groveplace.org/Garagecomp.htm, plus I know the 26 year old that is doing this, he already has $500,000 dollars in grants. http://www.outdoormuseum.com/

Here are more people who have TONS of pride for Rochester:

We have many proud members of our community who want to showcase Rochester in all of its glory:

http://www.picturerochester.com/index.html

New beautiful site, if you have the time click through all the previous pics.

And here is one thats been around a while:

http://www.rocpic.com/pictures.html

These are people who love living here as much as I do.

You forgot to mention about all the other Wegmans:

The one on East Ave will be razed to include underground parking and a classy atmosphere. They will make the facade resemble the mansions on East Ave.

The one in Webster on Holt Rd will move to the New Webster Town Center across the street.
http://www.corcompanies.com/development_webster.cfm.
Oh, and Webster Town Center is owned by a Syracuse company, Cor. This out of town developer invested A LOT of money into this high end lifestyle center in Webster.

The one at the corner of Latta Rd and Long Pond in Greece will be expanded into a huge store. You already read about the Mt Read store in Greece.

The one on East Henrietta Rd will move across the street to Calkins road. This is a double plus, because the $ from the sale of the land went to Monroe County to improve the Monroe County Fairgrounds and Dome Arena. The county is planning a multi million dollar renovation of the fairgrounds to give us a better place to host events. Hopefully the dumpy 70's raised ranches and center splits around there will be torn down for more retail in the future.

I have got to believe that Webster Town Center cost over $10 million, not that I know for sure, but building a Target, Dicks, Barnes and Noble, Lowes, Jo Anns superstore, etc. etc. has to cost in that vicinity.

how much is that Temple Building renting for? I'm thinking of putting in a request to transfer to our Rochester office...lol...it's gotta be well into the thousands.

Here are more people who have TONS of pride for Rochester:

We have many proud members of our community who want to showcase Rochester in all of its glory:

http://www.picturerochester.com/index.html

New beautiful site, if you have the time click through all the previous pics.

And here is one thats been around a while:

http://www.rocpic.com/pictures.html

These are people who love living here as much as I do.

I go to ROCPIC.com every day. BUT THEY HAVEN'T UPDATED IT SINCE JANUARY 1. The guy who runs the site is an excellent photographer and is great at capturing the "essence" of whatever it is he is taking. Thank you for that Picture Rochester site though, that night skyline shot from today is priceless.

how much is that Temple Building renting for? I'm thinking of putting in a request to transfer to our Rochester office...lol...it's gotta be well into the thousands.

Let me put it this way. My rich uncle (he owns AJ Hughes) wanted to rent a loft for a few months while he and my aunt were looking for a new house in Spencerport after selling thier old one in Webster.... and they said it was too expensive. (Mind you they were moving from a $600k house to a $700k). Yeah.