This is how the city centre was envisaged for 2045

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/citycentre.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/landuse.jpg

Look, they've knocked down the town hall!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/townhall.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/catherdral.jpg

Lovely, hope you like. i'm off to the alps for a week.get in.

All very nice but they totally underestimated the growth in commercial space needed! And all those roads... but no car parks... good one chaps!

Typical post-war town planning. Exactly the sort of thing which modern planning tries to avoid! ;)

St Andrews House (Portland Tower) and Bank Chambers were set back from Portland Street in anticipation of the Manchester Plan. A lovely dual carriageway was dual to carve through along the course of Portland Street taking the Watts warehouse and half of what is now ChinaTown with it.

Nice thread. Quality images. I like finding out about stuff like this.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/catherdral.jpg

Look what we lost. Those bombed Victorian gem's look wonderful.

That Trinity Station block, how big was that going to be?

What's the large building with the six glass domes? Any other pics?

/\ that's the royal exchange

I particularly like the 'Knott Mill Roundabout'. It starts roughly where the Hacienda Building starts and finishes at the end of Deansgate Locks and goes as far as Central Station (which you can see was already consigned to the dustbin long before it was actually closed).
There are some nice pictures of the 'Learning District" where a huge Civic Centre was to be built at All Saints - disecting Oxford Road. Oxford Road was to be downgraded and Upper Brook Street and Cambridge Street would be dual carriageway making the all university from All Saints to the MRI virtually pedestrianised (not a bad idea actually). I have some scans somewhere but i dont know how to post them. How do i do it?

St Andrews House (Portland Tower) and Bank Chambers were set back from Portland Street in anticipation of the Manchester Plan. A lovely dual carriageway was dual to carve through along the course of Portland Street taking the Watts warehouse and half of what is now ChinaTown with it.

Mmmm yeah, let's have lots of "lovely" dual-carriageways running (read: ripping) through our city centre.

Bloody hell... :(

It looks more like a 1845 plan envisaged for 1945 when you consider the Empire State Building / Chrysler Building started the Skyscraper boom in the 1930's!!!!!!!

i love seeing things like this. do you know if very much of it was actually implimented????

its sooo funny seeing how views have changed and although it would have been a crime to do most of what they planned, you have to appreciate their boldness. and anyway, from all the info they had available to them, they probably did quite a good job.

i love the 2 new massive train stations...... bless and by the time all that is built they are still using steam trains lol.

Funnily enough, although the "City Ring" (as it was called) was thankfully never carried out - there are schemes in the 1945 Plan for an Inner Ring and an Outer Ring and these have pretty much been done. With the building of the Alan Turing Way and the Trinity link the inner ring was completed and the outer ring pretty much represents the outer ring. There is even a mention in the 1945 plan of a high level bridge at Barton which of course we now have. The course of the roads in the Plan difer slightly but the general concept has been fulfilled.

Looks like they got their way with the "Link Road" in the south of the city, dont think they thought it would be in the air though.

What were they thinking of with the Town Hall, christ.

I particularly like the 'Knott Mill Roundabout'. It starts roughly where the Hacienda Building starts and finishes at the end of Deansgate Locks and goes as far as Central Station (which you can see was already consigned to the dustbin long before it was actually closed).
There are some nice pictures of the 'Learning District" where a huge Civic Centre was to be built at All Saints - disecting Oxford Road. Oxford Road was to be downgraded and Upper Brook Street and Cambridge Street would be dual carriageway making the all university from All Saints to the MRI virtually pedestrianised (not a bad idea actually). I have some scans somewhere but i dont know how to post them. How do i do it?

Use Photobucket. http://photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/

Browse your file, click on it, submit it, let it upload, right click on img, copy it, paste it on to your reply.

Cant find them! I wrote a big article on the 1945 Plan a couple of years ago so i have a copy of the Plan somewhere but the missus has gone to bed and i'm not going rooting for it under the bed to rescan the pics! Unfortunately the link to the article on the civic society website doesnt work either. I'll find them tomorrow. Perhaps jcg can scan in the Civic Centre pic and there is also a great Exhibition Hall planned for Piccadilly (a bit like Earls Court/ Wembley Arena) In answer to woodhousen the only other bit to be completed was the Crown Court and a bit of ceromonial way that is now Lincoln Square. All the buildings between the Court and the (new ) town hall would be cleared and a Moscow-esque type plaza would be laid out for all those Brave New World parades.

i love it, its great, i remember looking at similar plans for birmingham a few years ago. however, unfortunately for us, the planners did manage to impliment a lot of it.....raised shops, tunnels, rind roads.....ALL THREE ....concrete shopping malls and train stations.... in the 60's it much have looked great. however, the only fucking bugger was the fact that the only majr thng they didnt build was this massive civic centre planned for birmingham centenary sq... to those of you who know birmingham the only part they managed to build was wat is no baskerville house (bellow) this was one of 6 buildings proposed around a massive "red Square" like plaza with a massive column in the centre

http://www.birminghamuk.com/BrumFoto/baskerville/centpan3.jpg

in the end i dont know which is better, being like manchester and thankfully never impliment most of it...or as brum and impliment most of it.... and suffer lol....ok the answer to that question is obvious

This is how the city centre was envisaged for 2045

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/citycentre.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y88/jcg/landuse.jpg



^^

Looking at the first two map diagrams again and focusing on the dual carriageway "ring road"/"city circle" that runs in the centre (with six roundabout intersections) something very striking hit me immediately - the route of the ring road is ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME SHAPE AND SIZE IN CIRCUMFERENCE to the famous/notorious inner ring road that was built in Birmingham.

Look at this map and see for yourself - the resemblance is uncanny.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=407500&y=287500&z=3&sv=407500,287500&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf


I mean, even the six roundabout junctions are positioned exactly as on the Birmingham inner ring route - matching them one for one!!!! Clockwise from top (referring to both the Manchester diagrams) you would get St Chad's Circus, Lancaster Circus, Masshouse Circus, St Martin's Circus, Holloway Circus and Paradise Circus!!! :eek:

I'm sure even Woodhousen would agree with this one. :yes:

Lots of cities did 1945 plans. The Plymouth Plan was a nice one and a lot of the ideas, especially in the city centre, were carried out. They had a blank canvas thanks to the Luftwaffe and if you go to Plymouth it looks quite similiar to some of the drawings in the Manchester Plan (not for long though - post war planning isnt 'viable' anymore and its all being swept away). Exeter is another one but thats all being post-modernised aswell. Newcastle carried out some of their 1945 Plan roads schemes as did Leeds - so Manchester got away quite lightly considering!

How much of that original 1939 photo still stands today? and how was it lost, air raids or town planning? Manchester looked so pretty back then (and still does) but seems such a crime to have lost all that fine architecture. I have seen photos of Cardiff pre-war which was very similar with glorious fine victorian buildings and arcades etc. such a shame :o(

i couldnt agree more.....

though back to manchester lol

i couldnt agree more.....

though back to manchester lol



It's just amazing how remarkable the resemblance is - you'd think they cocked a snoop at the 1946 Birmingham Urban road plans to get the alignment looking THAT close to the one they built in Brum! :yes:

In that aerial photo with the cathedral at bottom centre:
The large triangular building to the right was the Victoria Buildings and that was destroyed in a fire. Just to the north of that was the Shambles which was demolished for a new development in the 60's and rebuilt again after the ira bomb.
To the north west of the cathedral stands the Corn exchange which is still there but the area to the west was demolished and now Urbis is there.
All the area directly north of the cathedral was demolished for the Arndale.
This part of town pretty much escaped bombing but didnt survive post war planning.

In that aerial photo with the cathedral at bottom centre:
The large triangular building to the right was the Victoria Buildings and that was destroyed in a fire. Just to the north of that was the Shambles which was demolished for a new development in the 60's and rebuilt again after the ira bomb.
To the north west of the cathedral stands the Corn exchange which is still there but the area to the west was demolished and now Urbis is there.
All the area directly north of the cathedral was demolished for the Arndale.
This part of town pretty much escaped bombing but didnt survive post war planning.

From what my gran tells me :) , the arndale area was very similar to Chester. Its a crying shame that this area is gone, but it could have been far worse for town as a whole............far far worse

Them planners will all be dead now so they will never see what their city never became.....

What's with all the dual carriageways and roundabouts anyway? they were probably the same team that designed East Kilbride in Scotland. :)

Not only were they gonna lose the town hall, but were gonna replace it with something like a building I've seen on a label, can't think what it was though...

It's just amazing how remarkable the resemblance is - you'd think they cocked a snoop at the 1946 Birmingham Urban road plans to get the alignment looking THAT close to the one they built in Brum! :yes:
Or it might have been the other way round... :)

It's interesting to see how they envisioned a lot more open space in the city centre. That certainly hasn't happened, and Manchester is still lacking large, high quality open space. It seems to be a more spacious, open and green city in the plans, although the plans clearly would not be practical with the economic demands of today. I must say I do like the boulevards in the plans. The one leading up to Albert Square looks great, although it seems very strange that the town hall has been demolished.

Not only were they gonna lose the town hall, but were gonna replace it with something like a building I've seen on a label, can't think what it was though...

Looks like Salford town hall in Swinton, just a bit grander.

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/SalSwintonCivicCntr98ic283.jpg

Bleedin awful!

Did Salford nick the plans? ;)

Dont know what all the fuss is, I like the idea of those Boulevards and a shame they never got built. The city has hardly any open space except for Piccadillay Gdns.

Except that these Boulevards would be full of traffic, not people. That was the major misunderstanding by these 1940s developers - they didn't plan for the huge rise in motor traffic of the 1950s-1970s and they didn't plan for the huge rise in consumerism.

Though I agree that we could have done with a few more parks and open spaces in the city centre.

It looks more like a 1845 plan envisaged for 1945 when you consider the Empire State Building / Chrysler Building started the Skyscraper boom in the 1930's!!!!!!!

What skyscraper boom. There was a massive depression in the 1930's and the Empire State stood empty for years. No skyscrapers where built in the city until after the war.

Anyway looking at that map of the 1945 plan we must thank god the country had no money at the time otherwise the city would have resembled Stalingrad.

What skyscraper boom. There was a massive depression in the 1930's and the Empire State stood empty for years. No skyscrapers where built in the city until after the war.

Anyway looking at that map of the 1945 plan we must thank god the country had no money at the time otherwise the city would have resembled Stalingrad.

or Birmingham. :runaway:

They put the roads into Birmingham but forgot about the green bits and the brick buildings.

takw that back, we got quite afew nice squares from our 60s plans....ok the buildings aroung them wernt nice but we did get squares tooo....

Them planners will all be dead now so they will never see what their city never became.....

What's with all the dual carriageways and roundabouts anyway? they were probably the same team that designed East Kilbride in Scotland. :)

Not only were they gonna lose the town hall, but were gonna replace it with something like a building I've seen on a label, can't think what it was though...

No ...what (round)about Milton Keynes & Concrete cows.....!!!!!!!!

The Concrete will be there for so much longer than I....!!!!!!
(Shakespeare...Edward 111..Act 4..Scene 6)

Or it might have been the other way round... :)

Yeh...PHOTOCOPIED..... No doubt (round)about it!!!

What skyscraper boom. There was a massive depression in the 1930's and the Empire State stood empty for years. No skyscrapers where built in the city until after the war.

Anyway looking at that map of the 1945 plan we must thank god the country had no money at the time otherwise the city would have resembled Stalingrad.
No what i'm trying to say is there does not seem to be much futuristic vision.....
it looks more like a plan of the Great Exhibition of 1861....Where's H.G.Wells when you need him....!!!!!

Anyway looking at that map of the 1945 plan we must thank god the country had no money at the time otherwise the city would have resembled Stalingrad.

:laugh:
I think you're right IN!

/Applications/CanoScan Toolbox 4.1/My Pictures/2006-02-04/civic.JPG

see if this works?

Obviously not!

Lets try this:

http://photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/?action=view&current=civic.jpg

Obviously not!

Lets try this:

http://photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/?action=view&current=civic.jpg

Longford, when you are posting put the URL in [ IMG ][ /IMG ] tags. It's the little icon of mountains in the post composer (Go advanced).

Try to reply with quote to a post with a picture in, and you'll see what I mean.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/civic.jpg

Sorry dont have the competence to put the picture in the reply.
Anyway the picture above is of the civic centre which was planned to disect Oxford road (running from botttom right to top left in pic) and create a distinction between 'town and gown'. You can see the University behind set in parkland almost - free from hundreds of No 42's.

[IMG]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/civic.jpg

No! Just a klutz i'm afraid!

Click on the quote button at the bottom right of my post, and you'll see. You just need to close the image tag.

All very nice but they totally underestimated the growth in commercial space needed! And all those roads... but no car parks... good one chaps!

Typical post-war town planning. Exactly the sort of thing which modern planning tries to avoid! ;)


Can you show me you MASTER PLAN....Mr Noel Gallagher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Red brick Universities don't entertain Planning/Media Studies degrees!!!! It all about logic...for example you go to a roundabout/crossroads ...how do you decide whether the traffic light should be green or red? Poisson...!!!! Simple....if you understand!!!!!

[http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/edu.jpg]
If this doesnt work i give up!

Longford

Underneath the thumbnail image on your photobucket gallery screen you will see three boxes of code. They are labelled url, tag and img. If you select the code in the 'img' box and paste that into the forum, your pictures should work.

Good luck

Tates

Wonder if it will show up if I put it in a code block? Lets see.

If you can see the url in its image tag below.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/civic.jpg

This is what you need to use.

If you cannot see the image tag, and I have no idea if it will work, Longford, to go advanced. click on the little icon with mountains on it, and insert the raw url into the dialogue box.

Shit that was a PHP box.

Try again.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/civic.jpg

.

[http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/edu.jpg]
If this doesnt work i give up!

Mr Longford. Just copy the img(under tag) and paste it on to your reply thread.

Don't give up on us now. :)

It puts the image in the code box. :bash:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/edu.jpg

Hally - fuckin- lu - yah!

[http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/edu.jpg]
If this doesnt work i give up!

I'd rather go around the world and take photos of interest to me (As i said earlier...Beetham is only a small tower....but Manchester will grow to be the Heart of England as it was once used to be ...!!!) ....PS It that you CAW!!!!!!

Thanks for your patience and advice fellas!
Back on topic the map shows the planned education precinct and of all the things in the Plan it is perhaps the most sensible. You can see the civic centre at the top with a park roughly where the Aquatics centre/ geoffrey manton building is.
Oxford road is essentially a service road with Upper Brook Street and Cambridge Street taking the strain - still a good idea and still pefectly feasible (lets face it there is nothing worth saving on the west side of Cambridge Street).
Whitworth park is incorporated into the grounds of the hospital - another good idea.

Thanks for your patience and advice fellas!
Back on topic the map shows the planned education precinct and of all the things in the Plan it is perhaps the most sensible. You can see the civic centre at the top with a park roughly where the Aquatics centre/ geoffrey manton building is.
Oxford road is essentially a service road with Upper Brook Street and Cambridge Street taking the strain - still a good idea and still pefectly feasible (lets face it there is nothing worth saving on the west side of Cambridge Street).
Whitworth park is incorporated into the grounds of the hospital - another good idea.

I don't think you can tell me about Education....Just another Brick in the Wall...I wish i didn't come from Limerick!!!!!!!!!!!

Ignore Doka Mr Logford. Most of us do. :) (he's harmless really)

oops, thought I was helping, didn't look far enough down the thread...
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/civic.jpg

Ignore Doka Mr Logford. Most of us do. :) (he's harmless really)
Just come on here when i get bored............. Big world out there ....Just see it,,,,,,Don't type it......!!!!!!!!!!!

Ignore Doka Mr Logford. Most of us do. :) (he's harmless really)
JRB ...........A few others are jumping on board in the very near future!!!!!!!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

I'm amazed at how green the vision was.

I'm amazed at how green the vision was.

I was thinking the same. Maybe they thought it was time to pull down the old stuff and clean the place up. Do you think a lot of the problems are to do with rain? I'm serious. Some of the streets are mossy and damp because they are so hard to keep clean. Compare Manchester's older narrow streets with similar ones in Italy etc... and if only the weather was better... I dunno, am I just having a SAD day.

Dont be sad b4mmy! Praise the rain!
You have to remember that Manchester wouldnt be the city it is if it wasn't for the high precipitation. The cotton industry couldnt have taken hold if it wasnt for the fast flowing streams coming off the Pennines and the damp air aiding the spinning and weaving of the cotton. There is a disseration in my theory somewhere!

ok

Milan has a higher yearly average rainfall than Manchester.

Milan has a higher yearly average rainfall than Manchester.

I was in Milan last spring having lunch in the park and it absolutely chucked it down for half an hour. Another half hour later it was as dry as a pancake. Like for like? :)

Milan has a higher yearly average rainfall than Manchester.

True, a lot of major cities around the world have much higher average rainfall than Manchester. For example, Manchester's annual average is around 800mm, compared to 1200mm in New York City. The rainfall in Manchester is actually similar to Rome. When you consider Tampa in Florida had over 200mm in the space of a few hours the other day, you realise that Manchester really isn't that wet. In fact, you may have noticed that it has been very dry over the past couple of months, with less than a third of the average rainfall.

When i was in Rio, it only rained on occaision, but when it rained, it wazzed.

Same in Sydney.

Both cities, known world wide for their attractive weather !, made me realise that the odd drizzly shower every couple of hours isn't all that bad! especially when it gives you the excuse to dive into a pub for warmth and shelter.

still, keeps the grass green and the canals free from drought.

New York is on the same meridian as Portugal, so the rain dries out and the sun shines a bit more.

I was thinking the same. Maybe they thought it was time to pull down the old stuff and clean the place up. Do you think a lot of the problems are to do with rain? I'm serious. Some of the streets are mossy and damp because they are so hard to keep clean. Compare Manchester's older narrow streets with similar ones in Italy etc... and if only the weather was better... I dunno, am I just having a SAD day.

I don't think the rain has much to do with this, I just think the streets and pavements should be better in Manchester in general. Most of the roads need a full re-surfacing and the pavements need to be re-done. For some reason the tarmac on the roads in Manchester looks very low quality and rough, which definitely makes it look worse in the rain. For me a combination of poor road surfaces, inconsistent and messy street furniture, particularly the street lights are mainly to blame for the untidy appearance of Manchester's streets in rain. I am delighted that they are gradually phasing out the orange/yellow street lamps in Manchester which I somehow find a lot more depressing on a rainy winter's night than the whiter lights which are now being used. I think that the plans to introduce a lot more greenery to the City Centre are very impressive. There just are very few places to escape from it all in the city centre. I'd like to see some large, high quality public open spaces as in the plans. Obviously nothing like Piccadilly Gardens though. It just feels far too open and exposed and a magnet for scrotes. Public spaces need trees and less concrete.

I don't think the rain has much to do with this, I just think the streets and pavements should be better in Manchester in general. Most of the roads need a full re-surfacing and the pavements need to be re-done. For some reason the tarmac on the roads in Manchester looks very low quality and rough, which definitely makes it look worse in the rain. For me a combination of poor road surfaces, inconsistent and messy street furniture, particularly the street lights are mainly to blame for the untidy appearance of Manchester's streets in rain. I am delighted that they are gradually phasing out the orange/yellow street lamps in Manchester which I somehow find a lot more depressing on a rainy winter's night than the whiter lights which are now being used. I think that the plans to introduce a lot more greenery to the City Centre are very impressive. There just are very few places to escape from it all in the city centre. I'd like to see some large, high quality public open spaces as in the plans. Obviously nothing like Piccadilly Gardens though. It just feels far too open and exposed and a magnet for scrotes. Public spaces need trees and less concrete.

Yep, I agree with all that. Manchester needs more from these guys:
http://www.planitedc.com

I think the recent overhaul of Piccadilly Gardens has cost Manchester a lot of green. The design appears to have excluded gardeners and all garden design concepts. A shame really, because IMHO Manchester ought to be going in the opposite direction with more green, not less. Mind you, they could make it a whole lot better without spending much money. For example they could get some ivy growing on that atrocious bare concrete Berlin Wall, and plant up parts of the South West side where the tramtracks run within a very large expanse of paving. For me, Manchester City Council's green credentials start here.

I am always banging on about green spaces. It usually falls on deaf ears. I saw a scheme for the plot of land near Afflecks. It was probably the worse i have ever seen (and ive seen some stinkers) almost Dickensian. I argued that this is a prime candidate for a inner city park and the city should CP - this of course isnt going to happen and a colleague argued he actually likes the urbanity of Manchester, which is an interesting and valid standpoint.
I know Birmingham has new green space provision written into its UDP - a clear ratio. Manchester could learn from our brummy friends on this i think.

That would be nice. People bang on about being green but when it comes to the crunch they pave over their garden or let some greensward get built on. A crying shame IMHO. I've got a nice garden, all my own work, and I do winter tasks for an environmental group. Gorse cutting, stuff like that.

Milan has a higher yearly average rainfall than Manchester.
The highest rainfall in the world is near a place called Tadipani!!!!!!!!!Nice Hot Springs though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All these places that we are told have a higher rainfall than Manchester, have a dry season. Milan for instance, dry in Summer, dry in Winter but heavy in Spring and Autumn.

I got caught in Manchester the day before Christmas Eve. Nowhere gets rain like that. Superdrizzle.

All these places that we are told have a higher rainfall than Manchester, have a dry season. Milan for instance, dry in Summer, dry in Winter but heavy in Spring and Autumn.

I got caught in Manchester the day before Christmas Eve. Nowhere gets rain like that. Superdrizzle.
Make sure you bring your brolley.......PS What's this go to do with the Manchester 1945 Plan...!!!!

Make sure you bring your brolley.......PS What's this go to do with the Manchester 1945 Plan...!!!!
Didn't you know Dan? They were planning for a rain-free Manchester :)

I think that the plans to introduce a lot more greenery to the City Centre are very impressive. There just are very few places to escape from it all in the city centre. I'd like to see some large, high quality public open spaces as in the plans. Obviously nothing like Piccadilly Gardens though. It just feels far too open and exposed and a magnet for scrotes. Public spaces need trees and less concrete.

It feels open and exposed and unplesant because it is not properly enclosed by surrounding buildings. Piccadilly Plaza doesn't address the space at all; the buildings that face it converely are too small and peacemeal. If there's one thing you could say in favour of everyone's favourite orange brick building is that it at least provides better enclosure and definition to part of the gardens.

Didn't you know Dan? They were planning for a rain-free Manchester :)
So when is the Dome going on.........Chrystal palace on a large scale....Put Manchester on a mantle piece and give it a shake when you want it to snow!!!(Sorry timmo... that got burn't down as well)