View Full Version : And The Debate Rolls On.......


klamedia
February 9th, 2006, 12:49 AM
Rail wrong way
L.A.'s system costs more than it saves
By Peter Gordon, Thomas A. Rubin and James E. Moore II



With the opening of the Orange Line busway in the San Fernando Valley and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's proposed state infrastructure bond, suddenly all of Los Angeles is thinking seriously about transit. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa has a transit vision that strongly emphasizes rail lines, including a multibillion-dollar Wilshire Boulevard subway. But is this the best way to go to relieve L.A.'s transportation woes?
Already, Villaraigosa is moving quickly in his role as chair of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority board, presiding over the MTA's approval of the Exposition light-rail line, and the beginning of tunnel operations for the Gold Line light-rail extension. He has joined the chorus of U.S. leaders of cities with populations near 1 million or above who see rail transit as an important badge of distinction, and also a way to relieve road traffic problems. Many serious people cling to these and similar ideas, but we now have much experience with new rail-transit systems in Los Angeles and elsewhere that indicates this vision is incorrect.

Over the last 15 years, the MTA has constructed five fixed-guideway transit lines. Collectively, all five serve about a quarter-million boardings per day. Los Angeles County has about 10 million residents, with the average person taking approximately four trips per day. Taken together, these lines account for just over one-half of 1 percent of all daily Los Angeles County trips.

What's more, the Red Line subway and the Blue and Green light-rail lines have all been operating for some years, and are unlikely to gain many more riders. The light-rail Gold Line and the Orange Line busway are much newer, but have no greater potential to attract riders than their predecessors.

If we are very careful about counting transit trips instead of transit boardings, and recognize that 70 percent of rail-transit trips actually involve multiple boardings, then the share of county travel attributable to fixed guideway transit drops even further, perhaps as low as one-quarter of 1 percent. The 30,000-plus trips per day accounted for by the Metrolink commuter trains account for such a small share of total travel that we have simply ignored them.

The costs of achieving this tiny ridership have been enormous. It cost $7.6 billion just to build these five fixed-guideway systems, and every year we incur another $240 million in operating costs.

Transit advocates such as the American Public Transit Association often prefer not to count capital costs when they promote fixed-guideway projects, but the rest of us do. The Federal Transit Administration uses an Office of Management and Budget standard of 7 percent interest to estimate the cost of transit capital. These costs are real: The MTA's fiscal year 2006 debt service is budgeted at $444 million, almost all for rail-transit capital expenses.

Current interest rates are low. If we give the MTA a break and annualize the cost of the MTA's capital expenditures using an interest rate of 5 percent per year, and add in operating expenses, then the MTA's five fixed-guideway lines incur a net loss of $575 million per year.

Even if we make the transit-friendly assumptions that these new lines are very successful in diverting


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auto trips to transit, and thus that 35 percent of all the riders on these fixed-guideway lines leave a car at home; and that every auto trip not taken nets society benefits of 9 cents per mile in pollution, congestion and accident-reduction savings; then the social loss from these fixed-guideway investments is still $560 million per year.

This is all relatively simple spreadsheet analysis that anyone can do, including the MTA. We can tweak the calculations all day long, but there is absolutely no set of reasonable assumptions that show fixed-guideway transit systems to be economically attractive.

Transportation economists have been making this point for almost half a century, and the evidence grows ever stronger as more expensive rail-transit systems come on line. Yet building these systems remains politically attractive as a kind of jobs program that supports environmental objectives by building systems we hope our neighbors will use, thus freeing up our freeways for us.

Throw in the equity argument that rail dollars squandered elsewhere have yet to be squandered on a line serving the mayor's political base on the Eastside of Los Angeles, and the result seems to be an unbeatable rail coalition.

There is only one way to solve the traffic problem we associate with automobiles. We should require drivers to pay the full cost of their decisions to travel in the form of pollution charges, time-of-day tolls, and (according to UCLA Professor Donald Shoup's new book) proper parking charges. New transponder technologies make all this relatively simple. These approaches work and have proved cost-effective everywhere they have been tried.

An enlightened society does have a responsibility to provide transit service to those who lack mobility options. If we are serious about transit, then the first thing we should do is legalize private transit to the maximum extent possible given public-sector labor-bargaining agreements, and allow owner-operators to compete openly with the MTA. If we continue to use public resources to subsidize transit providers like the MTA, then we should be fair to the taxpayers footing the bill by focusing on cost-effective bus services, and demand responsive services for those residents covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Los Angeles has real, serious transit needs - but rail lines aren't the answer.


---
Peter Gordon is a professor of policy, planning and development at the University of Southern California. Thomas A. Rubin is a transit consultant based in Oakland and the former controller-treasurer of the Southern California Rapid Transit District. James E. Moore II is chair of the Daniel J. Epstein Department of Industrial and Systems Engineering at USC, and director of the transportation engineering program.

dweebo2220
February 9th, 2006, 01:47 AM
I keep thinking about those monorails..

LosAngelesSportsFan
February 9th, 2006, 03:17 AM
ahh, these people are idoits. they may have PHDs and such, but they are still idiots. Ridership goes up exponentialy with more lines connecting to each other. also, consider the costs of no rail in LA. Complete gridlock, were already at 11 billion a year loss because of traffic, so you could probably double that with all those other cars on the roads, the costs of sprawl and extending even further out, etc etc etc etc. how about the positives of rail, such as the Billions of dollars of investments in Downtown, Hollywood, Pasadena, Wilshire, Long Beach, the convenience and stability of rail and the time saved as well as the stress saved because were not idleling in a car. Such short sighted thinking is unfathomable to me. Tolls everywhere? how about the people that cant afford it? do they sit at home and do shit? how about the economic loss from that? like i said earlier, idiots.

svs
February 9th, 2006, 03:28 AM
ahh, these people are idoits. they may have PHDs and such, but they are still idiots. Ridership goes up exponentialy with more lines connecting to each other. also, consider the costs of no rail in LA. Complete gridlock, were already at 11 billion a year loss because of traffic, so you could probably double that with all those other cars on the roads, the costs of sprawl and extending even further out, etc etc etc etc. how about the positives of rail, such as the Billions of dollars of investments in Downtown, Hollywood, Pasadena, Wilshire, Long Beach, the convenience and stability of rail and the time saved as well as the stress saved because were not idleling in a car. Such short sighted thinking is unfathomable to me. Tolls everywhere? how about the people that cant afford it? do they sit at home and do shit? how about the economic loss from that? like i said earlier, idiots.

Calling these guys idiots is an insult to the mentally handicapped. These morons act like there is no cost to freeway construction, or road maintanence. This is a great example of the malign influence of the educated fool and Yaroslavsky probably believes every word.

dweebo2220
February 9th, 2006, 05:35 AM
I say Add the tolls too, like London

Fern~Fern*
February 9th, 2006, 05:41 AM
I say Add the tolls too, like London

Heck no, LA doesn't need any tolls. It's enough we have to pay too many taxes, that' why Caltrans calls it, your government dollars at work!!!!!!

So more freeways please!!!!!!

dweebo2220
February 9th, 2006, 05:44 AM
I just meant tolls in the dense parts. Like the Westside. They have enough money anyway..

time to make use of all five seats in the beemer

klamedia
February 9th, 2006, 09:02 AM
Heck no, LA doesn't need any tolls. It's enough we have to pay too many taxes, that' why Caltrans calls it, your government dollars at work!!!!!!

So more freeways please!!!!!!

"Ferney" as we discussed before. If you want more freeways, whose neighborhood and houses are you planning to destroy?

godblessbotox
February 9th, 2006, 05:54 PM
beverly hills... make a connection from the 101 to the 1o so the 4o5 dose not sucks ass like now

LANative
February 9th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Heck no, LA doesn't need any tolls. It's enough we have to pay too many taxes, that' why Caltrans calls it, your government dollars at work!!!!!!

So more freeways please!!!!!!
No L.A. does not need more freeways!

Fern~Fern*
February 9th, 2006, 09:37 PM
"Ferney" as we discussed before. If you want more freeways, whose neighborhood and houses are you planning to destroy?

Good question, so not to be biased let's have a lottery to see who is getting wacked....... :jk:

Fern~Fern*
February 9th, 2006, 09:40 PM
No L.A. does not need more freeways!

Now you know this is not 100% accurate ^^

dweebo2220
February 9th, 2006, 09:54 PM
LA metro has the least freeway miles of any American Metro Area.
I don't remember where I read this. But it's true.

But.. Freeways are god-awful expensive. And, we might as well just realize that since we have the least freeways and it would be hard to get up to the level we should be at, we might as well become the city with the most
MONORAILS!!

Does anyone else not think monorails would be AWESOME!! They could build tracks that go up super high for no reason except to give you a great view and then you'd come flying down into Hollywood or wherever. Also, the times I've taken the subway, I have to agree with ol' Ray, I've been really bummed out that I can't see my beautiful shining city.

Does anyone know why they AREN'T being taken seriously?? I mean, except for the obvious light/heavy rail builders' lobbies and whatever? Last time we let private interests control our transportation system, they built an INADEQUATE FREEWAY SYSTEM AND TORE OUT ALL THE TRAINS!!

MONORAILS NOW!

LANative
February 9th, 2006, 11:11 PM
I though L.A. had the biggest freeway system. I didn't know it had the least.

dweebo2220
February 9th, 2006, 11:27 PM
sorry it's per capita.. forgot to mention that

klamedia
February 10th, 2006, 12:01 AM
"Dweeb" I never understood that stat everytime I've seen and read it. Could you explain it to us?

dweebo2220
February 10th, 2006, 12:53 AM
okay yeah I did a little research..
If you type in Los Angeles freeway miles in Google you'll get about a thousand webpages about Portland anti-growth stuff.. Apparently portland wants to model itself after a dense place like LA, and all the Republican jackholes there want to say why LA sucks. Their main reasoning is that in a dense place like LA, we don't have enough freeways per capita. On at least two pages, (http://www.ti.org/FS1.html) I've seen it stated that LA has the least freeway miles per capita of any american big city (metro). However, these are excessively biased articles, and on other sites I've just seen it mentioned that we have "among the fewest freeway miles per capita."
So I don't know the exact figure.

I do know though that originally LA was going to have freeways criss-crossing it at 4-mile intervals, like a huge grid. But of course that brought on a whole lotta NIMBY action.

Also, interestingly,
check out this site on highway info from 2002

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hiq/hiqoct02.htm

according to it, we have the same number of miles driven per capita as the SanFran area, and are in the bottom 20 out of the biggest 50 urban areas in America.

quick run-through:

highest number of miles driven daily per capita: Houston (37 mi.)
Lowest: New Orleans (14.5) (New York is 15.4)


LA: 23
San Fran: 22

LA actually also has lower miles driven daily than Portland or Seattle.

also, Chicago: 21
Philadelphia (third lowest after NY): 19
Las Vegas: 19

SO we're really not that bad off. VEGAS: 19 for crying out loud!! we can reach the level of vegas, I'm sure. New York and New Orleans (Must be something about "New") are kinda a long shot away.

with increased densification and greater reliance on public transportation, LA can definitely break into the under-20 club.

klamedia
February 10th, 2006, 02:51 AM
Thanx for that article. So basically everything that everyone believes to be true of LA is false or close to it. That it has high sprawl: false. That it has very low density: false. That it has very bad public transportation: false. That it hasn't any tall buildings: false. That all citizens here drive more than other cities: false. That the majority of people here live in a house: false. That the clubs here close at 2: Oh wait, that one is true.

LANative
February 10th, 2006, 03:07 AM
Where in the hell do these anti-L.A. articles come from?

svs
February 10th, 2006, 03:52 AM
Thanx for that article. So basically everything that everyone believes to be true of LA is false or close to it. That it has high sprawl: false. That it has very low density: false. That it has very bad public transportation: false. That it hasn't any tall buildings: false. That all citizens here drive more than other cities: false. That the majority of people here live in a house: false. That the clubs here close at 2: Oh wait, that one is true.

This is why we are the "city of dreams".

Facial
February 10th, 2006, 08:05 AM
The article is a piece of BS.

Is that the best those people can do? Such lack of vision.

dweebo2220
February 10th, 2006, 08:32 AM
Hey Klam-
about the whole bars closing at 2 thing..
It's the number one complaint from my London and New York friends.

I'm glad our city sleeps. Because daylight hours in this city are fucking awesome!!

(ps I tried to post that one pic from Dave L Dude from PV, but didn't work. so just think about it. it's the one where you can see cliffside mansion, beach apartments, downtown, and the mountains all in one, on a glorious day. mmm...)

klamedia
February 10th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Hey Klam-
about the whole bars closing at 2 thing..
It's the number one complaint from my London and New York friends.

I'm glad our city sleeps. Because daylight hours in this city are fucking awesome!!

(ps I tried to post that one pic from Dave L Dude from PV, but didn't work. so just think about it. it's the one where you can see cliffside mansion, beach apartments, downtown, and the mountains all in one, on a glorious day. mmm...)

I don't know why New Yorkers make such a big deal about it, it's only 2 friggin hours??? Las Vegas tops them anyway by going all day/all night including street walking drinking as well. (I believe I'm right on this). And prostitution is legal still, right? I just tell them, hell, go to Vegas!

future_trance011
February 10th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Thanx for that article. So basically everything that everyone believes to be true of LA is false or close to it. That it has high sprawl: false. That it has very low density: false. That it has very bad public transportation: false. That it hasn't any tall buildings: false. That all citizens here drive more than other cities: false. That the majority of people here live in a house: false. That the clubs here close at 2: Oh wait, that one is true.

"That the clubs here close at 2: Oh wait, that one is true"

True? maybe true 5 years ago. But I think its been changing with the renaissance of Hollywood. I've been to several clubs in Hollywood where my friends and I partied way past 2 A.M. (several times way past 6 A.M.) on a Saturday night. Most notably Club Avalon (formerly the Palace) on Vine Street, just a couple blocks away from the Capital Records building. Sure the bar closes at 2 A.M. but the music doesn't stop and as long as the DJ's are still spinng away , the sexy ladies will still be shaking their bacon. The party doesn't need to stop just because they stop serving alcohol. Plus the party actually gets better because all the alcoholics go home while the party people keep on partying. :cheers:

klamedia
February 11th, 2006, 03:47 AM
"That the clubs here close at 2: Oh wait, that one is true"

but the music doesn't stop and as long as the DJ's are still spinng away , the sexy ladies will still be shaking their bacon.


I really was talking about the alcohol service. But I'll keep my response short because I'm still laughing at the line about ' the sexy ladies shaking their bacon'. Arguably the funniest line on this whole damn forum! So what do the men shake??