I would like to see what makes up the midwestern cities in terms of ethnic enclaves. An EE is basically like consentration of an ethnic group sharing similarities in language, architecture, stores, cuisine, churches, ect. Alot of EE have broken up over the years, most of them originated from the strong immigration period. maps would really help...i could not find a map of milwaukee, anyone have one?

St. Louis:

http://www.pbase.com/jivecity/image/56194341.jpg

RED: Primary ethnic neighborhoods (a certain group predominates)

40-44: These four neighborhood comprise what is commonly known as Dogtown, which has always been very heavily Irish. There are pockets that include substantial Greek populations as well.

12: The Hill is one of the largest and oldest Little Italys in the United States. Bakeries, trattorias, markets and other ethnic businesses are abundant and the population is still largely Italian.

5: Bevo is known as the largest Bosnian community in North America. You may as well call it Little Sarajevo.

30 & 19: Benton Park West and Gravois Park are both very heavily Hispanic (Mexican)

**U. City** University City is actually a border suburb of St. Louis, but within its boundaries are very high populations of Chinese, Jewish and Ethiopian groups.


GREEN: Secondary ethnic neighborhoods (several groups coexist in sizable numbers)

15 & 25: Tower Grove East & Tower Grove South are both pretty multi-ethnic. They are home to large numbers of African, Vietnamese (and other Asian), Middle Eastern, Bosnian and Indian immigrants.

16: Dutchtown has historically been a very German neighborhood and still is, although it's diluted now with mixed groups.

63 & 65: Old North St. Louis & Hyde Park are mostly African-American today, but still have sizable remnants of an old Polish community.

47: DeBaliviere Place contains a large pocket of Russian Jewish immigrants.

Stuff that come to my mind immediately:

Cincinnati

- Lower Price Hill: Guetemelean (sp?)
- central Price Hill: Italian
- O'Bryonville: Irish
- Spanish Duck Creek: Mexicans
- College Hill: Jamaicans & Nigerians
- Carthage: Vietnamese & Mexicans

Columbus

- Italian Village (duh)
- German Village (used to be German; now it's yuppie)
- Northland (Somali; second largest in the country)
- Linden (Haitian)
- Near East (Jamaican)
- Hilltop (Mexican & Vietnamese)
- South Clintonville (Chinese)
- Hungarian Village (duh)

Dayton

- Belmont Park (Italians)
- South Park (small pocket of Bosnians)
- Old North Dayton (Czech & Hungarian)
- College Hill (Nigerian)

Dearborn and Hamtramck are the only true ethnic enclaves left in metro Detroit. Everything is either abandonded, diluted or hemogenized.

^Detroit used to have a Chinatown by Cass. I'm curious whatever happened to that?

Are you trying to be mean, or do you really not know? Both Chinatown and Black Bottom (the African American enclave) were paved over by the Lodge and Fisher freeways respectively, and then Ford Field put the nail in the coffin by locating right on the few remaining parts of the dilapidated Black Bottom district (named for the soil, not the ethnic group).

My metro area doesn't have any real ethnic enclaves.

I really didn't know. I knew that there was one there (I believe Tony told me) but didn't explain their departure.

If I was trying to be mean, you'd know it.

Touche. :) I forgot to add the smilie emoticon in my other post.

http://www.reuther.wayne.edu/faces/Chinese.jpg

^ How has this cumshot not been banned yet?

^ How has this cumshot not been banned yet?

cum sometimes slips between the cracks if you know what I mean...

Stuff that come to my mind immediately:

Cincinnati

- Lower Price Hill: Guetemelean (sp?)
- central Price Hill: Italian
- O'Bryonville: Irish
- Spanish Duck Creek: Mexicans
- College Hill: Jamaicans & Nigerians
- Carthage: Vietnamese & Mexicans

Columbus

- Italian Village (duh)
- German Village (used to be German; now it's yuppie)
- Northland (Somali; second largest in the country)
- Linden (Haitian)
- Near East (Jamaican)
- Hilltop (Mexican & Vietnamese)
- South Clintonville (Chinese)
- Hungarian Village (duh)

Dayton

- Belmont Park (Italians)
- South Park (small pocket of Bosnians)
- Old North Dayton (Czech & Hungarian)
- College Hill (Nigerian)
Wow I dint know Columbus had a Guatemalan population, thats something new to me but good info.

Are you trying to be mean, or do you really not know? Both Chinatown and Black Bottom (the African American enclave) were paved over by the Lodge and Fisher freeways respectively, and then Ford Field put the nail in the coffin by locating right on the few remaining parts of the dilapidated Black Bottom district (named for the soil, not the ethnic group).

My metro area doesn't have any real ethnic enclaves.


At least you're not exaggerating like the rest. NONE of those cities have 'international' diversity.

^ How has this cumshot not been banned yet?

I was wondering the same thing...

At least you're not exaggerating like the rest. NONE of those cities have 'international' diversity.

Who's exaggerating? I said those areas traditionally hold that population. I'm not saying that Northland is Somalitown but it definately has a substantial amount of Somalis.

But then again, this is like arguing with a suburbanite trying to tell me that Caribou Coffee > than any independant store. It's not worth it. :cheers:

At least you're not exaggerating like the rest. NONE of those cities have 'international' diversity. again. ignore this guy

I believe this thread was asking about ethnic enclaves, not international diversity. They are two different things. Believe it or not, ethnic neighborhoods do exist in Midwest cities outside of Chicago.

well to further detroit the recent ones in the last 30 or so years:

Mexicans: SW Detroit
Mixed bag of middle eastern descent: Dearborn and west side.
Chaldean 7 mile and livernois.

Cleveland:

Little italy - bah
slavic village - poles mostly, but some other eastern europeans thrown in for fun.

At least you're not exaggerating like the rest. NONE of those cities have 'international' diversity.


aren't you that Schaumborogh (however it's spelled) guy? I'll never forget that thread :lol:

aren't you that Schaumborogh (however it's spelled) guy? I'll never forget that thread :lol:

Well, if we're gonna reiterate the past, we might as well bring in some numbers just to make it fair for those who missed out...not to mention we're talking about "ethnic enclaves" and all...We'll see who's more "ethnic".

Schaumburg 18.9% Foreign born

Milwaukee 7.7% Foreign-born

Must be great knowing a topic on a forum is something you'll never forget for the rest of your life (why I am not surprised).

Oh shit, I wasn't trying to start that up again. The reason I'll never forget that thread is because it was so damn funny! You were comparing a small town on the edge of Chicago's metro area to a major city :lol

I completely forgot about Mexicantown. That's the only ethnic "town" left in Detroit that is populated by the namesake. Even the neighborhoods surrounding Chaldeantown are predominantly black.

Well style, shaumburgs population is absolutly nothing compared to milwaukee's 600,000... so that 7% goes long ways... do that math.

Although it really isn't that large compared to other "ethnic enclaves" mentioned. Louisville's south end is pretty ethnically diverse.

Americana (south end)
The Americana Apartment Complex, with some of Louisville's most affordable non-subsidized housing, has become a vibrant mix of refugee and immigrant families and American families. Great ethnic and economic diversity provides a wealth of challenges and opportunities. To meet these challenges and opportunities, the Americana Community Center was established as a resource for area families.The Americana Apartment Complex is Louisville's largest refugee resettlement site. Over 2,500 residents occupy 622 units. It is the largest concentration of varied ethnic groups, with nineteen different languages spoken. As the international climate has changed over the late 1980s and 1990s, the population of Americana has changed. The Vietnamese/Amerasian population has remained steady and large, while other populations, such as Cuban, Bosnian, Iraqi and Sudanese, continue to grow.

Arcadia (south end)
There are 432 apartments in the Arcadia Park Apartment Homes and a total of 1600 residents.
60% of the total residents are of Hispanic origin, representing countries such as Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico and Cuba.
25% of the total residents are native-born Caucasians and African-Americans
10% of the total residents are from various other countries in Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe, including Togo, Sudan, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Albania.
2.5% of the total residents are from Kosovo.
2.5% of the total residents are from Somalia.
http://www.arcadiacommunitycenter.org/photos.htm

Well, if we're gonna reiterate the past, we might as well bring in some numbers just to make it fair for those who missed out...not to mention we're talking about "ethnic enclaves" and all...We'll see who's more "ethnic".

Schaumburg 18.9% Foreign born

Milwaukee 7.7% Foreign-born

Must be great knowing a topic on a forum is something you'll never forget for the rest of your life (why I am not surprised).

like I said in that other thread...who cares? A bunch of rich doctors and proffesionals from the Indian sub-continent--how do they make Schaumburg a more exciting place? Especially when they all live in some fiefdom-like property.

And our Hispanic population is like what--1 and a half times the total population of Schaumburg?

like I said in that other thread...who cares? A bunch of rich doctors and proffesionals from the Indian sub-continent--how do they make Schaumburg a more exciting place? Especially when they all live in some fiefdom-like property.

And our Hispanic population is like what--1 and a half times the total population of Schaumburg?

Don't get me wrong - I see your point...but it's not really fair. You're acting as if Schaumburg stands alone by itself separately in another world disconnected from Chicago. It's like taking Hamlet away from Shakespeare.

Wheeling, Bensenville, Hanover Park, Streamwood, Rolling Meadows are all within 10 miles of Schaumburg and have hispanic populations of at least 15%, with Hanover Park being 26% Hispanic and it's right next to Schaumburg.

The area is always referred to as the "Northwest Suburbs", you guys are the only group who single out Schaumburg for the sole purpose of ripping on it for being a "suburb" to prop up your own cities.

It's not viewed as rich either. You wanna see rich, goto Lake Forest.

South Omaha has traditionally been where immigrants lived in Omaha. Back in the day it was where the differant European ethnic groups settled. Now the area is predominantly Mexican. All of the signs and are printed in English and Spanish. My high school Omaha South was 75% Mexican, 20% Black, and 5% White. The morning announcements were sometimes read in Spanish. In my English class I was the only American born person. Even the teacher was from Cuba and the students that weren't from Mexico were from Africa. There are differant street vendors that sell traditional Mexican food out of push carts. I can't recall what it was called but it's good. We also have a large Cinco de Mayo celebration for the Independance of Mexico.

Omaha also has the nation's largest Sudanese population of anycity (over 10,000). They aren't really centered around one neighborhood so there isn't a Sudanese part of town. The largest cluster I can think of is in Midtown Omaha.

IMO, this is where my city lacks...and thus is one of its draw-backs. Maybe since Indy really wasn't a "major" city in the true sense until the past 20 years, even though we had a good-sized population, not too many ethnic enclaves survived from the initial settling.

"Little mexico" on East Washington
"Jewish Getto" around Meridian Hills/Crows Nest area
"Italian area" around Fletcher Place/Fountian Square.

^ There is also a very noticable Hispanic community on West Washington... I don't know if there is still any real Italian heritage in Fletcher Place/Fountain Square as far as the residents--although at least the restaurants survived. :-)

Don't get me wrong - I see your point...but it's not really fair. You're acting as if Schaumburg stands alone by itself separately in another world disconnected from Chicago. It's like taking Hamlet away from Shakespeare.

Wheeling, Bensenville, Hanover Park, Streamwood, Rolling Meadows are all within 10 miles of Schaumburg and have hispanic populations of at least 15%, with Hanover Park being 26% Hispanic and it's right next to Schaumburg.

The area is always referred to as the "Northwest Suburbs", you guys are the only group who single out Schaumburg for the sole purpose of ripping on it for being a "suburb" to prop up your own cities.

It's not viewed as rich either. You wanna see rich, goto Lake Forest.

I never picked on Schaumburg until you started taking shots at Milwaukee at couple weeks ago.

^ There is also a very noticable Hispanic community on West Washington... I don't know if there is still any real Italian heritage in Fletcher Place/Fountain Square as far as the residents--although at least the restaurants survived. :-)

You are very correct...oops...I meant "west," not east.

Well, if we're gonna reiterate the past, we might as well bring in some numbers just to make it fair for those who missed out...not to mention we're talking about "ethnic enclaves" and all...We'll see who's more "ethnic".

Schaumburg 18.9% Foreign born

Milwaukee 7.7% Foreign-born

Must be great knowing a topic on a forum is something you'll never forget for the rest of your life (why I am not surprised).


"Foreign born" is not analagous to "ethnic." Milwaukee is 50% white, Schaumburg is 80% white. Obviously, much more homogenous.

Gee let me think

Detroit: Cocain bread blacks
St. Louis: Southside= white trash Northside+ ghetto trash blacks
Cincinnati; Kentucky wanna be white trash.
Cleveland trash
Cowlumbus trash
Kansas City melting pot

Get the picture?

Raytownthug your an asshole and what evidence to you hold to prove that Kansas City is a melting pot while all these othere citys are black and white trash.
Races in Kansas City:

White Non-Hispanic (57.6%)
Black (31.2%)
Hispanic (6.9%)
Other race (3.2%)
Two or more races (2.4%)
American Indian (1.2%)
Vietnamese (0.7%)

oooow thats the beautiful melting pot of Kansas City, almost 90% black and white trash and mostly white trash, kiss my ass because I'm here to defend all the citys you bashed, including your own because your making KC look bad...fucker
oh yeah learn how to spell it's cocaine not cocain.

"Foreign born" is not analagous to "ethnic." Milwaukee is 50% white, Schaumburg is 80% white. Obviously, much more homogenous.

Let's also consider that Milwaukee's "white" is almost notoriously pure German.

Schaumburg is pretty evenly split among Italian, Polish, several Eastern European countries and German/Irish. By arguing back with me you are verifying my points. Schaumburg (the suburb you collectively hate) seems to be holding up quite well.

Once again, I'm in no way saying Schaumburg is awesome...I'm just pointing out the facts. It's also 13.3% Asian and has a sizable Hindu population, I'm not sure Wisconsin can make a similar claim, at all.

Let's also consider that Milwaukee's "white" is almost notoriously pure German.

Schaumburg is pretty evenly split among Italian, Polish, several Eastern European countries and German/Irish. By arguing back with me you are verifying my points. Schaumburg (the suburb you collectively hate) seems to be holding up quite well.

Once again, I'm in no way saying Schaumburg is awesome...I'm just pointing out the facts. It's also 13.3% Asian and has a sizable Hindu population, I'm not sure Wisconsin can make a similar claim, at all.

cough...

In the 2000 census, over a third (38 percent) of Milwaukeeans reported that they were of German descent. Other large population groups include Polish (12.7%), Irish (10%), English (5.1%), Italian (4.4%), French (3.9%),

And how evident are those cultures in Schaumburg? More than they are in Milwaukee? I highly doubt it.

one thing no one has mentioned with Milwaukee is that it has the the second or third largest hmong population in the country. a group that i don't think any other cities outside of wausau and minneapolis have. i think milwaukee has around 2-3,000, mostly between 27-35th/National.

also, no one has mentioned all of the ethnic festivals milwaukee has every summer. Irish Fest is the biggest celtic festival in the world, bigger than anything even in ireland. last year the president of ireland came, and dozens of irish bands come from ireland every year to play, etc.

then there is German Fest, Polish Fest, Festa Italiana, Asian Moon Fest, Arab Fest, African World Festival, Indian Summer, Fiesta Mexicana, Bastille Days, Greekfest and I'm probably forgetting some others. There is an ethnic festival every weekend in the summer. Each of these festivals draw a big crowd, Irish and Italiana over 100,000 each. So while maybe 38% of milwaukeeans have some german heritage, most are also a combination of many of the above ethnicities, are proud of it, and celebrate it. i'm swiss, german and irish.

There are more countries represented in Suburban Chicago than Urban Anywhere, Midwest...

If you guys don't understand that, it's your own problem.

There are more countries represented in Suburban Chicago than Urban Anywhere, Midwest...


What a shocking revelation....

It shouldn't be, but for some reason it is.

What is your point, style? What do you hope to accomplish by posting here?

Style, seriously, I think your Spanish side is brainwashing your Aztec side. If my assumption, that you are Mexican, is correct.

Actually, the only reason suburban Chicago is more highly represented is because it has a larger population. Officially the census doesn't count an ethnic group unless they find at least 50 people in their 1 in 6 sampling. In Chicago the chances of attaining 50 is much higher than Minneapolis or Cincinnati. Basically a city could technically have hundreds of people of a certain descent but since less than 50 of them were randomly counted by the census bureau, the ethnic group is listed as non-existant in the city.

Changing the subject, does anyone think that America has finally either developed in the notion of a "melting pot" or are we still under the analogy of a "salad bowl." Other races and ethnicities, IMO, seem to be acculturating better in the 2000s in comparison with the immigrant groups of the 1900s. Now days, I feel all races and diverse ethnic people have the chance to succeed into the American culture. Have there been any set-backs to this theory in your city lately?

I'm just throwing this out there...

Would you guys rather have different the nationalities living throughout the city (i.e. with whites, blacks, etc...) instead of one or more predominant areas?

I understand the importance of have secluded areas with say for instance, Italians or Indians, for restaurants etc... but what do you think?

The Life, I believe different nationalities would create way to much of an imbalance. It would divide cities in alot of aspects including culture. Most dominant-society Americans believe in establishing an American nationality, and creating such division to this degree would not make that possible. Its fair to share culture in consintrated areas, but there's an extent to which all people have to be open to the American mainstream "melting pot" society.

and whats the fascination with non-white populations and diversity anyway?

Style515, just to be clear...

Schaumburg White population: 78.8% US Average: 75.1%
Schaumburg Black population: 3.4% US Average: 12.3%
Schaumburg Amer. Indian population: 0.1% US Average: 0.9%
Schaumburg Asian population: 14.2% US Average: 3.6%
Schaumburg Hispanic population: 5.3% US Average: 12.5%
Schaumburg "other:" 1.7% US Average: 5.5%

Gee, Schaumburg seems real "ethnic," don't you all agree? (BTW totals are more than 100% because many people identify as multi-ethnic.)

Anyway, it's a ridiculous way to argue. I tend to agree with ReddAlert. Yes, there are social implications related to ethnic ratios, but unless you really, really value how many good Vietnamese restaurants are available in your city, I don't see much of a point in arguing about it.

There are more countries represented in Suburban Chicago than Urban Anywhere, Midwest...

If you guys don't understand that, it's your own problem.

Style, I mean this with all due respect. Chicago is not in competition with these other middle western cities. We get along well...and particularly with Milwaukee (which has nothing to prove). I don't want to say that you're being just like Silverlake is with LA because you aren't quite there. But that's the direction you appear to be going to others.

And if there is something that no city needs, it's a Silverlake.

Seriously, no offense. I'm sure it is not your intent but it really is coming across as disprestful to these other cities.

I believe this thread was asking about ethnic enclaves, not international diversity. They are two different things. Believe it or not, ethnic neighborhoods do exist in Midwest cities outside of Chicago.

I fully agree, Jive. As I hope I got across above, I don’t think any midwestern city is in Chicago’s shaddow. All of these cities have something to offer. Then again, Jive, as you well know, I’m just as convinced that Chicago is not in New York’s level...and an equally great as a city.

There are more countries represented in Suburban Chicago than Urban Anywhere, Midwest...

If you guys don't understand that, it's your own problem.

Style, I mean this with all due respect. Chicago is not in competition with these other middle western cities. We get along well...and particularly with Milwaukee (which has nothing to prove). I don't want to say that you're being just like Silverlake is with LA because you aren't quite there. But that's the direction you appear to be going to others.

And if there is something that no city needs, it's a Silverlake.

Seriously, no offense. I'm sure it is not your intent but it really is coming across as disprestful to these other cities.

I believe this thread was asking about ethnic enclaves, not international diversity. They are two different things. Believe it or not, ethnic neighborhoods do exist in Midwest cities outside of Chicago.

I fully agree, Jive. As I hope I got across above, I don’t think any midwestern city is in Chicago’s shaddow. All of these cities have something to offer. Then again, Jive, as you well know, I’m just as convinced that Chicago is not in New York’s shaddow...and an equally great as a city.

Style, I mean this with all due respect. Chicago is not in competition with these other middle western cities. We get along well...and particularly with Milwaukee (which has nothing to prove). I don't want to say that you're being just like Silverlake is with LA because you aren't quite there. But that's the direction you appear to be going to others.

And if there is something that no city needs, it's a Silverlake.

Seriously, no offense. I'm sure it is not your intent but it really is coming across as disprestful to these other cities.
city.

good post. There is no comparison to Chicago in the Midwest...by bragging, its only overkill,although much of what style says is false or a half truth. Im sorry style, but suburbs dont compare to cities--IKEA or no IKEA.

And really now style, why attack Milwaukee all the time for? Last time I checked, Milwaukee was pretty much in the Chicago metro area. Shoot, if I didnt live so far north in Milwaukee...I probally could be in the official Chicago metro in 20 minutes.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7321/coverage2hz.gif (http://imageshack.us)

True, they are pretty close.

Its amazing that you mention that Redd. Milwaukee and Chicago become closer every day. The four new gigantic business parks near the I-94 corridor, and also the expansion of the KRM METRA. Yeah, im on the south part of the milwaukee metro, and its ten-fifteen minutes on the interstate till you enter the realm of Chicago...unless the "I" is jammed..which it is always inbetween M-C...Im proud that i can say that..being i have so many ties with chicago, illinois, and the kenosha area....Some people may think its detrimental to the city, but hey, chicago is great..it can only help us!

and whats the fascination with non-white populations and diversity anyway?

If you were referring to me, its more a fascination with how the midwest cities formed...what makes up the city..the people..the culture how it all comes together...the pros and cons of ethnic enclaves...its all an interesting topic which relates to city development... yet if you are referring to the people who take it to the extreme and go on a comparison frenzy...well yeah thats a bit out of the league.

Changing the subject, does anyone think that America has finally either developed in the notion of a "melting pot" or are we still under the analogy of a "salad bowl." Other races and ethnicities, IMO, seem to be acculturating better in the 2000s in comparison with the immigrant groups of the 1900s. Now days, I feel all races and diverse ethnic people have the chance to succeed into the American culture. Have there been any set-backs to this theory in your city lately?

UWM, I've heard it referred to as tribal in the sense that each group does its own thing and that there really are very few shared or common values.

Is there perhaps an irony that immigrant groups have acculturated better in the 2000s than in other eras....but there is little common culture to acculturate to?

I don't want to turn this into a political discussion....and won't, but I will say that the vast majority of Americans are totally blind to the actions of this nation and its government, even when government acts in outrageous ways.

I love our diversity but I lament the fact that there is little "glue" keeping the whole thing together.

If you were referring to me, its more a fascination with how the midwest cities formed...what makes up the city..the people..the culture how it all comes together...the pros and cons of ethnic enclaves...its all an interesting topic which relates to city development... yet if you are referring to the people who take it to the extreme and go on a comparison frenzy...well yeah thats a bit out of the league.

no, not you UWM, just in general. People on these forums put ethnic diversity on some super high pedestal...but what does it actually do for them? Milwaukee has alot of Hmong, many of them in my area--but rarely do they socialize outside their communities, same goes for the many of the other Asian groups. I realize people like Vietnamese and Indian food...but really, is it THAT important. Madison has a ton of these food joints, but isnt exactly incredibly diverse.

Outside resturants and festivals...they are just ordinary people who dont offer anything more than your average Polish American would. White people are so undervalued on here, cities with high white populations are often times thought of as bad or not as cosmopolitan. I find that to be bull and kind of offensive in a way--as if all white culture is the same.

And going on about diversity...whens the last time you have seen an African American doing something African?

Its amazing that you mention that Redd. Milwaukee and Chicago become closer every day. The four new gigantic business parks near the I-94 corridor, and also the expansion of the KRM METRA. Yeah, im on the south part of the milwaukee metro, and its ten-fifteen minutes on the interstate till you enter the realm of Chicago...unless the "I" is jammed..which it is always inbetween M-C...Im proud that i can say that..being i have so many ties with chicago, illinois, and the kenosha area....Some people may think its detrimental to the city, but hey, chicago is great..it can only help us!

yeah, I also think strengthening our ties with a city that has an economy in the top 20 is very important. What would be really cool is if they could build some sort of high speed train that could transport people from Chicago-Milwaukee in a half hour. Wishful thinking though. :)

no, not you UWM, just in general. People on these forums put ethnic diversity on some super high pedestal...but what does it actually do for them? Milwaukee has alot of Hmong, many of them in my area--but rarely do they socialize outside their communities, same goes for the many of the other Asian groups. I realize people like Vietnamese and Indian food...but really, is it THAT important. Madison has a ton of these food joints, but isnt exactly incredibly diverse.

Outside resturants and festivals...they are just ordinary people who dont offer anything more than your average Polish American would. White people are so undervalued on here, cities with high white populations are often times thought of as bad or not as cosmopolitan. I find that to be bull and kind of offensive in a way--as if all white culture is the same.

And going on about diversity...whens the last time you have seen an African American doing something African?

So black people should be doing some kind of African tribal dance to live up to their "African" roots. You're very ignorant.

STAY in Wisconsin.

So black people should be doing some kind of African tribal dance to live up to their "African" roots. You're very ignorant.

STAY in Wisconsin.

did I say that?

Why value so many African Americans, Latinos, Filipinos, etc and not white groups? Somebody explain this too me? What African American cultural qualities have made your life and your city better than some whitey city? What about Asians? What parts of their culture do you see on a regular basis--aside from driving past resturants, martial arts dojos, acupunuture clinics, and the occasional temple?

Let's also consider that Milwaukee's "white" is almost notoriously pure German

Correct me if Im wrong, Milwaulkeans, but wasn't there a large Polish community in the city as well?

Correct me if Im wrong, Milwaulkeans, but wasn't there a large Polish community in the city as well?

You are correct. Poles ranked number two in the city, but even still, there was quite a large gap between them and Germans. This is still true today.

Why value so many African Americans, Latinos, Filipinos, etc and not white groups?

Because rap is hipper than polka?


Euro-ethnics = square
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/Jeff59c/German%20Fest/GD30.jpg
(but the beer is better)

The vast majority of immigrants to the United States these days are non-white. So a city with a lot of Hispanics, Asians and Africans is a city that is taking in a lot of new immigrants. Cities which take in a lot of new immigrants are those cities that can claim to be cosmopolitan and international.

Cities that are overwhelmingly white are not bringing in a lot international immigrants. Beleive me, I have nothing against white people, but I consider new immigrants to be very good for cities.

You also bring up the perenial African American vs. Black debate. People have a right to call themselves whatever they want. Period.

did I say that?

Why value so many African Americans, Latinos, Filipinos, etc and not white groups? Somebody explain this too me? What African American cultural qualities have made your life and your city better than some whitey city? What about Asians? What parts of their culture do you see on a regular basis--aside from driving past resturants, martial arts dojos, acupunuture clinics, and the occasional temple?

Though of subject, are you seriously asking about what Black Americans have contributed to society? Do you know nothing of Black History Month? Perhaps, you need to research and be humbled by what minorities have done for this country to make your day-to-day life easier.

For starters, here are some inventions or ideas pioneered by Black Americans. If anyone wants to look up other minority contributions to society, please post:

1. Idea for a Blood Bank - Dr. Charles Richard Drew

2. The modern mailbox - Philip B. Downing

3. Improved incandescent lightbulb, by inventing carbon filament - Lewis Latimer

4. Electronic control devices for guided missiles, IBM computers, and the pacemaker - Otis Boykin
.....

did I say that?

Why value so many African Americans, Latinos, Filipinos, etc and not white groups? Somebody explain this too me? What African American cultural qualities have made your life and your city better than some whitey city? What about Asians? What parts of their culture do you see on a regular basis--aside from driving past resturants, martial arts dojos, acupunuture clinics, and the occasional temple?

There is great value in getting know people outside your culture as individuals. So, driving past Asian restaurants and Hispanic grocery stores isn't going add much value to your life. But getting to know the individuals who own and patronize those places and learning about their culture and its similarities and differences from your own... that has enormous value.

What African American cultural qualities have made your life and your city better than some whitey city?

This is going to sound crazy, but when I was going to school in Madison I really missed Black people. And non-white people in general. Obviously not all white people are the same, and there is a lot diversity within the white "race." But a place where everyone is white is just not healthy. It's also a lot more boring.

Though of subject, are you seriously asking about what Black Americans have contributed to society? Do you know nothing of Black History Month? Perhaps, you need to research and be humbled by what minorities have done for this country to make your day-to-day life easier.

For starters, here are some inventions or ideas pioneered by Black Americans. If anyone wants to look up other minority contributions to society, please post:

1. Idea for a Blood Bank - Dr. Charles Richard Drew

2. The modern mailbox - Philip B. Downing

3. Improved incandescent lightbulb, by inventing carbon filament - Lewis Latimer

4. Electronic control devices for guided missiles, IBM computers, and the pacemaker - Otis Boykin
.....

Dr. Drew did more than come up with the idea for a blood bank. He discovered plasma as a long term method for storing whole blood and as a result thousands, upon thousands of lives have been saved. This same man was denied plasma when he needed it himself and died as a result.

I think the point he was making is that the majority of black Americans are not immigrants, but rather descendents of slaves that have been in the country for hundreds of years. For example, only 5% of Detroit residents are foreign-born, but that is only due to the large hispanic population in Southwest Detroit. Black foreign-born residents of Detroit only account for 0.6% of the total population.

That's an awfully nice spin, for him. :)

Looks like he was saying that Black Amerinca's are exotic enough, and that Asian-American culture is confined to restaurants, marital arts studios, and the other stereotypical fare. And, that he doesn't see any good reason why cities should be trying to attract minorities because they don't offer enough stereotypical fare to his life, as if minorities are exist in this country to dance around in ethnic costumes to amuse and appease his penchant for exotic culture. You know, your typical, culturally insensitive American that "has a Black friend, and loves rap" but likes their experiences with minorities to be on their own terms, and in an environment that is within their cultural zone (i.e. Mongolian Barbeque, play at the local theater, a "cultural festival"...)

I hope I totally read you wrong, or that you said all of that tongue-in-cheek, though.

This is going to sound crazy, but when I was going to school in Madison I really missed Black people. And non-white people in general. Obviously not all white people are the same, and there is a lot diversity within the white "race." But a place where everyone is white is just not healthy. It's also a lot more boring.


I have to agree. I don't know why that is, but it just seems true. It seems like big cities, with the exception of Seattle, where the population is over 60% White (Phoenix, Jacksonville, Portland, Austin) seem to be ignored or considered less exciting. Why is that?

Though of subject, are you seriously asking about what Black Americans have contributed to society? Do you know nothing of Black History Month? Perhaps, you need to research and be humbled by what minorities have done for this country to make your day-to-day life easier.


.....

No, no. See, this is why I dont post" contreversial" statements regarding diversity and non-white people. Everyone takes it the wrong way and soon after I will be labeled a fool or a racist. I am fully aware of all the good things done by African Americans.

What I mean is this...

Why does is a diverse city better than a less diverse city? What does the average African American, Latino, or Asian do that makes San Francisco better than Madison or Duluth? Sure, every culture offers unique things--but what percentage of the population of any city regularly intakes this culture? And really, what percent of African American youth are actively involved in something African related or what percentage of Milwaukee German-Americans are involved in something German? Why are white ethnic groups seen as being less important than African or Latino ones? Why is it that too many white people is a bad thing, but too many black people or too many Latinos isnt?

The area I live in is quite diverse, with many blacks and Asians, as well as white people---and they dont do anything out of the ordinary that would make my neighborhood better than a neighborhood in white Delafield. I interact with people of different cultures on a daily basis. They work, drive around, walk, hang out, etc. just like anybody else--nothing different than a white person aside from skin color and how they talk.

So then, why is diversity so greatly valued? Dont get me wrong, I dig diversity...but nobody on here backs up what diversity adds to their city. If any of you remember City vs. City--all they argued about regarding diversity in London, in NYC was how many nice Curry places there are, how you can go to Chinatown and buy some Chinese stuff. You can do both of those things in Ames, Iowa or pretty much any medium sized Midwest town.

My point doesnt have any racism in it. I am asking a serious question that many dont seem to want to answer.

Your mind is made up. You are convinced that ethnic and/or racial diversity is not important to you, so who's to try and convince you otherwise? Why even try? If you think racial/ethnic diversity is such and inconsequential factor in your life, who's to tell you otherwise? I really don't think you want your question answered. If you haven't seen how racial/ethnic/religious...diversity has made your life more fulfilling since you propose that you live in such a diverse area, and this far into the game, than I don't think you ever will, and it will be because of your own wall, not anyone elses. You don't "dig" diversity. Comments like "they don't do anything out of the ordinary" kind of proves that.

That's an awfully nice spin, for him. :)

Looks like he was saying that Black Amerinca's are exotic enough, and that Asian-American culture is confined to restaurants, marital arts studios, and the other stereotypical fare. And, that he doesn't see any good reason why cities should be trying to attract minorities because they don't offer enough stereotypical fare to his life, as if minorities are exist in this country to dance around in ethnic costumes to amuse and appease his penchant for exotic culture. You know, your typical, culturally insensitive American that "has a Black friend, and loves rap" but likes their experiences with minorities to be on their own terms, and in an environment that is within their cultural zone (i.e. Mongolian Barbeque, play at the local theater, a "cultural festival"...)

I hope I totally read you wrong, or that you said all of that tongue-in-cheek, though.

But really now LMichigan...what other aspects of Asian culture do you see besides martial arts and resturtants? If anybody is trying to tell me that they regularly see Chinese Opera, visit Japanese art galleries or stop in at a Buddhist temple...they are full of it. Those are truly great things about these cultures--but like I said in that other post--how much of the population sees this stuff? They may go to once or twice in years...and the rest of the time stay with their own kind. Its human nature. Its nice and cute to think that all people are outgoing and culture lovers like you and me are...but they are not. And when these people want to get a taste (pun intended) of other cultures...they go to resturants!

And this is from my own observations, but the Asian community keeps to itself. I rarely, if ever see a Southeast Asian hanging out with a group of African Americans. But I do see a ton of Southeast Asians dressing like they walked out of a rap video! And whats so special about Asian teens dressing like African American teens?

Your mind is made up. You are convinced that ethnic and/or racial diversity is not important to you, so who's to try and convince you otherwise? Why even try? If you think racial/ethnic diversity is such and inconsequential factor in your life, who's to tell you otherwise? I really don't think you want your question answered. If you haven't seen how racial/ethnic/religious...diversity has made your life more fulfilling this far into the game, than I don't think you ever will, and it will be because of your own wall, not anyone elses.

He is asking a few questions, and I think he might have a valid point about the white ethnic heritage being devalued, or valued less, or not considered valid in terms of "cultural diversity".

You keep totally missing the point of diversity (be it of any kind). What it does is bring more ideas, solutions, and questions to the table. That is the heart of a city and the very reason for their formation, to bring together and exchange as many ideas, solutions, and questions as humanly possible. And, racial and ethnic diversity is part of that.

Your mind is made up. You are convinced that ethnic and/or racial diversity is not important to you, so who's to try and convince you otherwise? Why even try? If you think racial/ethnic diversity is such and inconsequential factor in your life, who's to tell you otherwise? I really don't think you want your question answered. If you haven't seen how racial/ethnic/religious...diversity has made your life more fulfilling since you propose that you live in such a diverse area, and this far into the game, than I don't think you ever will, and it will be because of your own wall, not anyone elses. You don't "dig" diversity. Comments like "they don't do anything out of the ordinary" kind of proves that.

What do you do out the ordinary? What do I do out the ordinary? We are Americans who do American stuff--regardless of color or religion.

You are making false assumptions about me, which is usually what people do who cant argue. Yes, living in a diverse area makes me appreciate black culture moreso than some guy living in the woods or on a farm--but does that make my city better than Appleton?

You keep totally missing the point of diversity (be it of any kind). What it does is bring more ideas, solutions, and questions to the table. That is the heart of a city and the very reason for their formation, to bring together and exchange as many ideas, solutions, and questions as humanly possible. And, racial and ethnic diversity is part of that.

and really, what percentage of the population do you think exchanges ideas, solutions, and questions? Face it most people are sadly interested in their own cultures. Watch the news....its usually about how white people have to learn to accept and learn about other cultures, not the other way around.

Do you want to know why? And I know many hate to hear this, but the majority of the burden of cultural sensitivity always needs to fall on the majority culture/race/ethnicity/religion, whatever part of the world it may be in. Minorities are bombarded with mainstream education. On the other hand, the average White American has the ability to remove him/herself from areas of minority culture. It's just by the special virtues and vices of being a majority or minority citizen. People hate to think that people are different, and that the majority and minority citizenry have different roles and priviledges, but it is true. There really is such thing as White Privilege, which throws me for a total loop when a White American accusses minorities of getting "special privilege" when they themselves get special treatment everyday. It's all supossed to balance out, but many people have this false idea that somehow that the majority doesn't reap its own special benefits.

Thats the problem though. Yeah I agree that white people have an advantage in some regards, but saying thats the gospel truth is unfair to both whites and blacks. Many problems in the black community are caused by the black community (drugs, education, crime etc.)--yet the white community is many times blamed for this or seen as being responsibile for trying to solve it. If the white people arent interested in these problems or tries to get away from them--they are seen as being uncultured and generally the "bad guy." I agree that some of these people are bigots and do not wish to understand the culture--but why should they be accused for wanting to leave neighborhoods torn apart by black people hurting other black people? Even many older African Americans tire of this shit, seeing their old safe, friendly neighborhoods being destoryed by young men shooting eahc other, abusing drugs, and having children with numerous women. I still remember walking out of a grocery store years ago where there was a group of kids using every word in the book. An older black woman looked at me and shook her head and told me how sad that was. And its true. Im sorry but inner city culture is tearing the black community apart and many white people dont want any part of that....you cant blame them either.

Nowhere did I say that Black American's don't have advantages in some areas. You asked the question of why White Americans have to be sat down and taught cultural sensitivity, and once again, it is quite simply becasue they have the convience, if they so choose, to exist nearly totally within their comfort zone, and their society for much of their lives. Not only does a minority have to live his/her culture, they have to some extent live the majority culture everyday of their lives. Few could escape mainstream society if they wanted, and for the simple fact of being a minority, they are much more attunded to cultural sensitivity. They have to live it almost every day of their lives. Why does it bother White America (i.e. non-foreign born, mainstream society) so much to admit that maybe, just maybe, by virtue of being the majority culture that they may not be so finely attunded to issues of race as a minority?

That is why I get so annoyed of the question "why should we have to learn about your culture?" Because, if you don't, you are much more susceptible to all types of ugliness (racism, general prejudice, ignorance, cultural insensitivity...). It is not that minority American's shouldn't make the effort to learn about the ethnic sub-cultures within White America. It is that the majority of the burden falls on the shoulders of White America, more, as they are the ones with the power/influence. And with power comes great responsibility. By virtue of being the culture in power, you are suppossed to be held in higher regard in terms of cultural sensitivity, because if you don't, you are far more susceptible to cultural insensitivity than any other group in this country.

Lastly, this discussion has evolved into something much different than it was originally started as (few don't), but I don't know where anyone said or implied that Black Americans don't play a major role in their problems, or how we even got to that point.

You keep totally missing the point of diversity (be it of any kind). What it does is bring more ideas, solutions, and questions to the table. That is the heart of a city and the very reason for their formation, to bring together and exchange as many ideas, solutions, and questions as humanly possible. And, racial and ethnic diversity is part of that.

Agreed. True diversity is far, far more than ethnic grocery stores and restaurants. It's a state of mind. It's trying to see the world through someone else's eyes, someone who has had a totally different life experience than yourself.

And the reason you don't hear as much talk about white ethnic groups like Irish Americans or German Americans is that being a member of a white ethnic group has very little bearing on your everyday life in how society treats you. You're not going to get followed around a store for being Irish American and you're not going to have people assume you're good at math and science if you're German American. But you're going to have these things happen if you are Black or Asian, respectively.

Agreed. True diversity is far, far more than ethnic grocery stores and restaurants. It's a state of mind. It's trying to see the world through someone else's eyes, someone who has had a totally different life experience than yourself.

And the reason you don't hear as much talk about white ethnic groups like Irish Americans or German Americans is that being a member of a white ethnic group has very little bearing on your everyday life in how society treats you. You're not going to get followed around a store for being Irish American and you're not going to have people assume you're good at math and science if you're German American. But you're going to have these things happen if you are Black or Asian, respectively.

All good points, and thank you for adding to alot of things I've missed. I thought I was alone here, in my opposing view, for a moment.

No, no. See, this is why I dont post" contreversial" statements regarding diversity and non-white people. Everyone takes it the wrong way and soon after I will be labeled a fool or a racist. I am fully aware of all the good things done by African Americans.

What I mean is this...

Why does is a diverse city better than a less diverse city? What does the average African American, Latino, or Asian do that makes San Francisco better than Madison or Duluth? Sure, every culture offers unique things--but what percentage of the population of any city regularly intakes this culture? And really, what percent of African American youth are actively involved in something African related or what percentage of Milwaukee German-Americans are involved in something German? Why are white ethnic groups seen as being less important than African or Latino ones? Why is it that too many white people is a bad thing, but too many black people or too many Latinos isnt?

The area I live in is quite diverse, with many blacks and Asians, as well as white people---and they dont do anything out of the ordinary that would make my neighborhood better than a neighborhood in white Delafield. I interact with people of different cultures on a daily basis. They work, drive around, walk, hang out, etc. just like anybody else--nothing different than a white person aside from skin color and how they talk.

So then, why is diversity so greatly valued? Dont get me wrong, I dig diversity...but nobody on here backs up what diversity adds to their city. If any of you remember City vs. City--all they argued about regarding diversity in London, in NYC was how many nice Curry places there are, how you can go to Chinatown and buy some Chinese stuff. You can do both of those things in Ames, Iowa or pretty much any medium sized Midwest town.

My point doesnt have any racism in it. I am asking a serious question that many dont seem to want to answer.

Redd, you raise some very interesting points. Somewhere along the line, a wonderful concept called "tollerance" morphed into a need for total diversity and a belief that i would automatically make our cities more vibrant.

The absurdity is that race is just one of each of our characteristic and one that is probably a lot less important than people think.

Get together 4 thoroughly American folks: one white, one black, one Asian, and one Hispanic and my guess is that race would not be a major issue.

God, I wish we'd get the maturity we should have in the US and realize that race should not be an issue and should not be divisive. It is a totally idiotic way of sorting and dividing people and the US has paid such a big price for the insanity of it all. Who gives a shit about what race may be able to tell you about somebody's bloodlines?

I dont think it bothers most. However, many are probally tired about the regular stupidity that occurs in the ghetto. Its just tiring having to hear that I should learn about all this stuff regarding the African American culture...yet seeing the news every night and watching the latest black teen gunned down. To the outsider, it appears that nothing is being done within. It seems and many times actually is an accepted way of life in the inner city. While there are many dedicated black people trying to stop this, their work is lost in the headlines to stories about how black teens wont rat out criminals to the police. I have said this before, but I think that this "inner city" culture is a stain on African American culture. Sadly, many people use the two interchangeably.

People should continue learning, but the problems regarding the black community have been occuring for years. And there really isnt much that white people can do to solve any of the black mans woes. Money has been poured into helping poor blacks, black history is taught in every school, and accepting other cultures is promoted....yet these problems keep getting worse. In my opinion, only black people can solve black problems.

You're saying race should not be divisive, but it will always be. It's human nature.

Redd, you raise some very interesting points. Somewhere along the line, a wonderful concept called "tollerance" morphed into a need for total diversity and a belief that i would automatically make our cities more vibrant.

The absurdity is that race is just one of each of our characteristic and one that is probably a lot less important than people think.

Get together 4 thoroughly American folks: one white, one black, one Asian, and one Hispanic and my guess is that race would not be a major issue.

God, I wish we'd get the maturity we should have in the US and realize that?

Thanks edsg! I was hoping somebody was see what I am trying to get at here. People forget that this is 2006, not 1906. Our individual cultures have been less unique as the years go by. Almost everybody speaks English and has been raised with American culture--not German, Polish, or African. Aside from color, are we really so different?

He is asking a few questions, and I think he might have a valid point about the white ethnic heritage being devalued, or valued less, or not considered valid in terms of "cultural diversity".

Diversity is the presence of a wide range of variation in the qualities or attributes under discussion. I've never in my life heard the term "white ethnic heritage lol." It has no foundation. White is not an ethnicity, black is not an ethnicity. Asian is an ethnicity, Arab is an ethnicity, Hispanic is an ethnicity.

The history of diversity is odd in the United States because there was a time when loosing your own ethnic identity to join the majority white population was a good thing. That’s why a lot of Irish born Americans are not seen as an ethnic group by a lot of minorities because a lot of Irish immigrants who came to America assimilated and adapted the majority of the white culture, as a result they lost a lot of their own culture. The only way for Irish immigrants to become American was to become white.

If you look back to around the 1820's and 1830's when Irish immigrants began migrating to America, the census bureau who regularly collected statistics on the nation's native and foreign population kept the Irish distinct from even the latter group. The Irish were subjected to harsh working conditions, and were even seen lower than slaves in some cases. But this all changed around the time democratic theorists were coming to accept polygenetic ideas regarding the separate creation of the "black" and "white" races...and they also began defining "white" in such a way to include the Irish who had previously not been viewed as white. Go back to 1840 for example when James Buchanan contemptuously branded the Mexicans as a "mongrel" race unfit for freedom but was glad that "Americans" were a "mixed" population of English, Scottish-Irish, French, Welsh, German and Irish Ancestry.

Fast forward to 2006....how many U.S. citizens define themselves as American Welsh? Probably VERY few. Why is this? Because for a large part, and history has proved this, most European immigrants that came to America overtime lumped each other into one great big category called White. And this can't be blamed on any other racial or ethnic group…..that is exactly what they wanted. Africans on the other hand were not even immigrants, they were forced to come to America, the category of "black" was not their chosen identity like "white" for Europeans. Asians were called "yellow" for a long period of time, but it never became a racial classification.

So going back to Diversity which is the presence of a wide range of variation in the qualities or attributes. We don't see a lot of ethnic diversity within the white community because history has shown that a lot of European immigrants lost their identities when they had to adopt the "white" classification in order to become socially accepted. Does this mean whites don't know about their history? no. It just means that its very hard to tell what ethnic background a "white" person comes from because like i said the Irish, French and other immigrant groups became lumped into one racial category. Black people pretty much have also been lumped into one category, but over time we have tried to fix that. That’s where the terms African American came about. Instead of just being called "black" and being lumped into one big category when in actuality black people have just as much diversity in which parts of Africa they came from as Whites have in which parts of Europe they came from. But we don't seem to see as many black American people saying they are Angolan-American or Sudanese American as we see whites saying they are Irish American, or Scottish American. Because face it, Africa is not a country, its a continent. And its not like the African slaves who came to America just started calling themselves “black”….no that classification was given to them, nd basically wiped out any trace of ethnic individuality that they had. So therefore when someone says they are African American we have no clue of what part of Africa they come from versus when a white person says they are Irish American we have a very clear view of which country their ancestors came from.

So therefore the term ethnicity applies very different when speaking of white Americans and black Americans. I've never viewed "white" as an ethnicity, and I’ve never viewed "black" as an ethnicity, and never will. Its the individual groups inside those two MAN MADE socially constructed categories that have ethnicity. Until we learn to separate them, we have a problem.

Most descendents of slaves don't know where their ancestors came from, so it would be pointless to attempt to define country of origin for them.

As far as "whites" not retaining any culture, I disagree. We may not wear traditional European clothes and talk with a foreign accent, but we do retain some of our heritage. For instance, my family called our Great Grandmother "Mimi" because of our French heritage, my friend celebrates Pączki Day because of his Polish heritage, etc.

lol no one said you had to wear traditional clothing. And the fact that descendents of slaves don't know what part of Africa they came from is because they were stolen from their homelands and prevented from spreading that type of information...on top of not being allowed to read. Its not because they were in a rush to become "American" like Irish Immigrants. Remember that around the time Irish Immigrants were becoming American and started voting, Africans weren't even allowed to become American citizens or vote.

That first part isn't entirely true. There are now companies that help Black Americans, through DNA, trace back their history to the general area their ancestors came from within Africa, and some even back to their ethnicity in Africa. Not that it matters much to the discussion, I'd think.

Also, Soul didn't say that ethnic Europeans don't retain their culture, just that it is (and was) far more likely for them to assimilate into the created "White" or mainstream culture, and that only a select group of people can do this (base on skin color and features). And, on a whole, it is (and was) much less important for ethnic Europeans to keep their original cultures seeing as how they had created the "White" culture which sook to consolidate power through melding similar looking immigrants into one culture. There is strength in numbers, after all.

Italians retain their culture well, so do many Eastern Europeans...you could almost divide it into the "new white" vs "old white".

I dont think it bothers most. However, many are probally tired about the regular stupidity that occurs in the ghetto. Its just tiring having to hear that I should learn about all this stuff regarding the African American culture...

You think that is stupid. You should hear comments I hear from people who are not Jewish about what I should think or believe or feel because I am Jewish.

As for the ghetto, Redd, do these idiots understand that the vast majority of African Americans are middle class folks, living middle class lives and having values that are thoroughly American.

Take the major "races" in the United States: white, black, Hispanic, Asian and crunch the numbers as to which one has been on these shores the longest (based on the average taken from each "member") and you'd find there is only one group that is off the charts on length of time in the US: African Americans. Virtually all African Americans can trace their US roots to pre-revolutionary America.

To assume this vast group of people who contriubted so much to US culture and literally built this nation on their backs is defined by a ghetto culture is absurd. As I said: talk about roots and talk about family ties (which are extgensive, deep, and cross into the most extended of families), our African American community has played a wonderful part in the diversity that is America....at a price of loyalty that few of the rest of us would have been willing to play, based on years of slavery, Jim Crow, and the prejudice that still exists today.

I don't think that destructive behavior is "accepted" by most people in inner city communities. I think that a lot of people are numb to the violence and the anti-social behavior that plagues their communities. Poverty breeds a sense of hopelessness, and hopeless people tend to grow numb to the social problems they see all around them.

o therefore the term ethnicity applies very different when speaking of white Americans and black Americans. I've never viewed "white" as an ethnicity, and I’ve never viewed "black" as an ethnicity, and never will. Its the individual groups inside those two MAN MADE socially constructed categories that have ethnicity. Until we learn to separate them, we have a problem.

When I use the term I am using it as it was used in the very early 1970s, in books like Michael Novak's The Rise of the Unmetlable Ethnics, referring to mostly working class people of eastern and southern European ancestry.

At the time this term came into use in the way I am using it, these "ethnics" where probably just recently (post WWII) seeing a generation fully assimilated into mainstream US society, so there was a bit of nostalgia and sense of loss around the concept too...

An alternative to assimilation was the US Germans. This community didnt really assimilate unti much later. For the duration of the 19th century and into the early 20th, the Germans formed a parallel, bilingual culture, in rural areas and in the cities. They assimilated insofar as much as the participated in the US economy (and spoke English when dealing with non-Germans). Socially, they self-segregated to a suprising degree, with their own schools, newspapers, and so forth.

Assimiliation really took hold among the Germans during and after WWI, with the 1920s and 30s being the decades that this parallel German-American subculture faded away.

There is starting to be more scholarly work on this "Germans outside of Germany" subculture, or Deutschtum, as its called...books like The Heimat Abroad, The Boundaries of Germanness
and Becoming Old Stock: The Paradox of German/American Identity (which is about the German community in Philadelphia)...look to be good reads about this ethnic experieces.

@@@@@

One think to note is that though there was Polonia. the Polish community in America, or Deutsctum, these where not Poland or Germany, but American subcultures of Polish and German speakers, or of Polish or German ancestry....the same with the Chicano community and subculture of California..though of Mexican ancestry, this was anAmerican subculture of people of Mexican ancestry.

So, cultural pluralism has been with us for some time. Not necessarily a bad thing.

You think that is stupid. You should hear comments I hear from people who are not Jewish about what I should think or believe or feel because I am Jewish.

As for the ghetto, Redd, do these idiots understand that the vast majority of African Americans are middle class folks, living middle class lives and having values that are thoroughly American.

Take the major "races" in the United States: white, black, Hispanic, Asian and crunch the numbers as to which one has been on these shores the longest (based on the average taken from each "member") and you'd find there is only one group that is off the charts on length of time in the US: African Americans. Virtually all African Americans can trace their US roots to pre-revolutionary America.

To assume this vast group of people who contriubted so much to US culture and literally built this nation on their backs is defined by a ghetto culture is absurd. As I said: talk about roots and talk about family ties (which are extgensive, deep, and cross into the most extended of families), our African American community has played a wonderful part in the diversity that is America....at a price of loyalty that few of the rest of us would have been willing to play, based on years of slavery, Jim Crow, and the prejudice that still exists today.

yeah, the Jewish culture is often times stereotyped sadly, probally moreso than African Americans....much, much longer than African Americans too.

No, I dont think most people who have never spent time in an urban area or lived around black people (or Latinos for that matter) know too much about this. You can look at these sites that show incomes for various parts of cities--and suprisingly, African Americans often times do make more money than their white and Asian counterparts. I think that many of these types would be suprised coming to my area and seeing all the new, large houses and neighborhoods (new sprawl unfortunaly) being populated by mainly blackfamilies. I personally think these houses and families (lol, while suburban looking) are a great example to those living right across the street in the shady apartment buildings.

I also think many would be suprised at knowing that black people have been here for a very long time. Most probally have had roots here much longer than us white people. While they were building their lives after the Reconstruction--we were just getting off the boat at Ellis Island.

It really is a shame that this "ghetto culture" is so prominent in American cities. When these suburbanites or ruralites watch the t.v. and see a black man on the t.v.--its usually some rapper, athlete, or somebody bitching on the news. Not knowing many if any black people and not growing up around them--they probally will have some stereotypical views of blacks. African American culture is interesting, productive, and very pleasant--but the "ghetto culture" is not. African American culture has produced many great contributions to society in general, this ghetto culture cannot make that same claim. People need to know this.

Growing up around different culture is a good part of diversity in cities. However, as I was saying in my original argument--its not as important as people make it out to be. People up in these white cities are doing just fine and many of them are not as insensitive, racist, and hateful as us urbanists would like to think. There is a misunderstanding of these white people--on SSC. ,everybody refers to them as hicks, rednecks, hateful conservatives etc. They couldnt be more wrong and its sad that nobody sticks up for these people constantly mocked and stereotyped as much as they stick up for black people, Muslims, Communists, and every other people on earth.

Yep, Indy is pretty much a black and white city. As far as America is concerned, I feel that African Americans always have, still have, and always will be treated the worst of all the ethnic groups. I can give you examples and analogies all day and night, but I'll keep it short: the farther you are from being a White, middle class man in America, the worse you'll be treated.

Yep, Indy is pretty much a black and white city. As far as America is concerned, I feel that African Americans always have, still have, and always will be treated the worst of all the ethnic groups. I can give you examples and analogies all day and night, but I'll keep it short: the farther you are from being a White, middle class man in America, the worse you'll be treated.


Actually, Indy is a lot more "brown" than you might think. The hispanic population is HUGE. There wouldn't be a mexican consolate here if it weren't. Also, Pike Township is surprisingly diverse. When you look at the census data for that part of the County, it is quite nice to see that it isn't so black and white or even brown.

It really is a shame that this "ghetto culture" is so prominent in American cities. When these suburbanites or ruralites watch the t.v. and see a black man on the t.v.--its usually some rapper, athlete, or somebody bitching on the news.

Really? All i see is martha stewart vs donald trump...

I also think many would be suprised at knowing that black people have been here for a very long time. Most probally have had roots here much longer than us white people. While they were building their lives after the Reconstruction--we were just getting off the boat at Ellis Island.

.


you lost me.. reconstruction 1865-1877. The majority of immigrants who entered America through Ellis Island came between January,1892 to June, 1897 and later between 1901 to 1931.

But wait!....you do know reconstruction as far as African Americans are concerned was failure don't you? Around the time that you say blacks were "building their lives" the government was creating "black codes" which made their lives even more miserable than those immigrants arriving in Ellis Island.

you lost me.. reconstruction 1865-1877. The majority of immigrants who entered America through Ellis Island came between January,1892 to June, 1897 and later between 1901 to 1931.

That would be the "second immigraton". The big "first immigration" from Ireland and Germany happened before the Civil War.

Yet good point about reconstruction. It was a big failure from an economic perspective. The big economic failure, IMO, was not accomplishing serious land reform via the breaking up of plantations and resettlement of freedmen on their own farmland, and the the failure to set up a system of farm credit, which led to the rise of tenant farming and debt peonage (sharecropping).

Yeah, Reconstruction was a major failure, so much in fact that I feel annoyed with even using the term "Reconstruction." For many Northern White Americans, at the time, it was simply enough that the slaves were freed. The whole thing reminds me of an evil step-parent locking his step-child in a basement for most of their childhood, and then letting them loose into the world with no means for that child to provide for themselves.

Really? All i see is martha stewart vs donald trump...

thats because you dont watch MTV, BET, or VH1.

you lost me.. reconstruction 1865-1877. The majority of immigrants who entered America through Ellis Island came between January,1892 to June, 1897 and later between 1901 to 1931.

But wait!....you do know reconstruction as far as African Americans are concerned was failure don't you? Around the time that you say blacks were "building their lives" the government was creating "black codes" which made their lives even more miserable than those immigrants arriving in Ellis Island.

after reconstruction, which would be when many came to America, mainly from Eastern and Southern Europe. I dont know my history here in America, so I would assume they came before the Civil War and the only person I have heard about with the same last name was a Union Civil War soldier. I wasnt speaking about myself in particular however.

and who are you to speak for all blacks at that time. Yes, black codes were a dark area during that time, but many were infact rebuilding their lives throughout hardship. And no one ever did doubt their lives were as tough as Southern blacks. However, you just love to push this white guilt on us all the time, so by all means...do continue.

thats because you dont watch MTV, BET, or VH1.

yeah, especially BET. I truely don't like that channel. Damn near everything about it is sterotypical. So is mainstream hip hop. I don't care to much for that either. I'm a hip hop fan, but nearly all of the stuff I listen to never gets played on the radio or seen on the stations you mentioned because it doesn't fit that sterotypical image.

A lot of you guys should just stay away from diversity, you're better off in your own world where everyone is the same.

yeah, especially BET. I truely don't like that channel. Damn near everything about it is sterotypical. So is mainstream hip hop. I don't care to much for that either. I'm a hip hop fan, but nearly all of the stuff I listen to never gets played on the radio or seen on the stations you mentioned because it doesn't fit that sterotypical image.

lol, yeah. BET is terrible. The only time I ever watch it anymore is when they show Bebe's Kids.

And I agree, the good hip hop isnt on t.v., isnt on the radio. You need to look hard and long to find good hip hop--the stuff the most stores dont carry. And it doesnt need to be hardcore stuff with all swearing, pimps, killing cops, etc. I promote this alot, but I love the CD, Gift of Gab-Fourth Dimensional Rocket Ships Goin Up. Juding by that title, you know sure as hell they arent going to play it on KISS, MTV, or hear it driving down Fond du Lac on a Summer night. You probally can only find stuff like that on the Eastside at the stores that sell good music--like Atomic Records (which I recommmend). And while its probally the most extreme of music magazines--Murder Dog actually presents some new and good rappers in their magazine.

I know it sounds funny, considering my attacks on ghetto culture in previous posts, but I do love rap music--Will Smith to hardcore stuff. Dont need any of that Crunk garbage though. :)

A lot of you guys should just stay away from diversity, you're better off in your own world where everyone is the same.

maybe I should move to Schaumburg then? You know style, I probally see more black people driving home from work on one day than you do in a month.

Money has been poured into helping poor blacks, black history is taught in every school, and accepting other cultures is promoted....yet these problems keep getting worse. In my opinion, only black people can solve black problems.

I don't know, Redd. Is it black problems or ghetto problems. Those are two different issues. Truth is, Redd, my suspicions are that you would has little influencde in a ghetto situation than a white person would be. In your own way you would be the outsider.

From people I know who have taught in inner city schools, most black kids see no distinction between white and black teachers. And black teachers feel they have far more in common with their white colleagues culturally and socio-economically than they do with the kids they teach. And they wouild be right.

Personally I think that this is far more of an American problem of what happens in ghettoes than a black problem. As I stated before, there are far too many blacks who are middle class and have nothing in common with black people in ghettoes.....just like they would have little in common with the considerable number of white families who once went by the offensive phrase known as "white trash" (and it is offensive).

Look, Redd, if I drive through a Chicago neighborhood with a large number of hassidiac Jews, dressed in black and top hat with payeses (dreadlocks) hanging and walking to temple on Saturday while condemning all in their cars.....these people would be about as alien from my experiences as they come. And, quite frankly: these are not my people (where plenty of non-Jews are).

A lot of you guys should just stay away from diversity, you're better off in your own world where everyone is the same.


Do you intend to annoy people in this thread?

If there's no diversity - society is almost the same. A lot of you seem to want that.

do you intend to annoy people in this thread?

Isn't that the definition of a troll?

Why hasnt he been banned yet?

I don't know, Redd. Is it black problems or ghetto problems. Those are two different issues. Truth is, Redd, my suspicions are that you would has little influencde in a ghetto situation than a white person would be. In your own way you would be the outsider.

From people I know who have taught in inner city schools, most black kids see no distinction between white and black teachers. And black teachers feel they have far more in common with their white colleagues culturally and socio-economically than they do with the kids they teach. And they wouild be right.

Personally I think that this is far more of an American problem of what happens in ghettoes than a black problem. As I stated before, there are far too many blacks who are middle class and have nothing in common with black people in ghettoes.....just like they would have little in common with the considerable number of white families who once went by the offensive phrase known as "white trash" (and it is offensive).

Look, Redd, if I drive through a Chicago neighborhood with a large number of hassidiac Jews, dressed in black and top hat with payeses (dreadlocks) hanging and walking to temple on Saturday while condemning all in their cars.....these people would be about as alien from my experiences as they come. And, quite frankly: these are not my people (where plenty of non-Jews are).

thats an intersting point about the schools. However, I still dont think there is much that any outsider can do to stop some of the common problems plauging these areas. Murders, drugs, teen pregnancy, unemployment, dropping out....I just dont know what I could do as an outsider to the black community could do to stop it. I also dont know what the government can do either--pumping money into a problem will not solve it permanently. I guess there needs to be a will within some of these people doing this...to not get sucked into the hole of the negative aspects of this culture. Uncle Sam can try, but he wont get average joe on the street to stop abusing crack, pulling a gun out in anger, dropping out of high school or walking out on his family.

Its a tough problem to solve. It doesnt help that much of the youth listens to music that preaches being a player, a person not to be messed with, to be feared, and one who does not like the police. It sounds funny and I am one to admit that video games and movies are not going to make somebody murder someone else....but listening to this garbage constantly and the peer preasure that goes along with it is going to help lead young people down the wrong path.

It also doesnt help that there is a dislike of the police, the law....making them out to be the enemy of the black people, when in fact the enemy of black Americans are other black people! Who is it at the other end of a gun when a young black 19-20 year old is on the ground bleeding to death? Who is offering them their first hits on the crackpipe or joint? Black people leading the younger generation downhill! And it hurts not having a father figure around to show their child whats right and whats wrong, teaching them truly how to be a man-not other kids in the neighborhood. Many of these "men" having children are infact children themselves--no experience and no stable job to support their child and signifcant other. I guess some blame has to be attributed to the females, who allow themselves to be impreganated by these people, who in most cases are not their husbands. While, many may laugh at me for saying this---abstinence could help the situation. I read somewhere that the worst Milwaukee neigborhoods are like 91% single mother homes....something that must be apart of the problem.

And that is a good point about the Jewish situation you mentioned. However, I also think that a young black man would look up to another black man rather than some random white man out in the suburbs. I dont think their cultures would be that different from each other--as various groups of Jews are. Many of these black people who have worked themselves into being successful often times did start from ground zero or may have came from the central city themselves--but moved to a safer location once they were able to do so.

Bottom line...diversity gives a community more than one flavor.

Variety is the spice of life.

Bottom line...diversity gives a community more than one flavor.

Variety is the spice of life.

look at Tokyo, lacking in diversity greatly---it doesnt make Tokyo any less amazing. Same goes for many of the other Asian cities. Alot of these cities that are not overly diverse are actually pretty good cities.

look at Tokyo, lacking in diversity greatly---it doesnt make Tokyo any less amazing. Same goes for many of the other Asian cities. Alot of these cities that are not overly diverse are actually pretty good cities.

America has built itself on being a diverse nation...Japan, China, etc. do not allow it. I hate to be the one to say it, but whites as a whole are a very dull people.

Hispanic is not a fecking race!

:rant:

and black and white are not ethnicities.

and black and white are not ethnicities.
No, they are races. ;)

have people forgotten that race and ethnicity are two different things?

Classically there are only three races:

Caucasoid: Everything from Iceland to Sri Lanka, including Northern Africa and the Middle East
Mongoloid: East Asians and Native Americans
Negroid: Africans

People like the aborigines are hard to define, as they often do have a "negroid" appearance.

However, such classification has certainly fallen from favor given the ludicrous attempts to correlate inherent racial abilities to each of these races (you know what I am talking about :sleepy: )

thats an intersting point about the schools. However, I still dont think there is much that any outsider can do to stop some of the common problems plauging these areas. Murders, drugs, teen pregnancy, unemployment, dropping out....I just dont know what I could do as an outsider to the black community could do to stop it. I also dont know what the government can do either--pumping money into a problem will not solve it permanently. I guess there needs to be a will within some of these people doing this...to not get sucked into the hole of the negative aspects of this culture. Uncle Sam can try, but he wont get average joe on the street to stop abusing crack, pulling a gun out in anger, dropping out of high school or walking out on his family.

Its a tough problem to solve. It doesnt help that much of the youth listens to music that preaches being a player, a person not to be messed with, to be feared, and one who does not like the police. It sounds funny and I am one to admit that video games and movies are not going to make somebody murder someone else....but listening to this garbage constantly and the peer preasure that goes along with it is going to help lead young people down the wrong path.

It also doesnt help that there is a dislike of the police, the law....making them out to be the enemy of the black people, when in fact the enemy of black Americans are other black people! Who is it at the other end of a gun when a young black 19-20 year old is on the ground bleeding to death? Who is offering them their first hits on the crackpipe or joint? Black people leading the younger generation downhill! And it hurts not having a father figure around to show their child whats right and whats wrong, teaching them truly how to be a man-not other kids in the neighborhood. Many of these "men" having children are infact children themselves--no experience and no stable job to support their child and signifcant other. I guess some blame has to be attributed to the females, who allow themselves to be impreganated by these people, who in most cases are not their husbands. While, many may laugh at me for saying this---abstinence could help the situation. I read somewhere that the worst Milwaukee neigborhoods are like 91% single mother homes....something that must be apart of the problem.

And that is a good point about the Jewish situation you mentioned. However, I also think that a young black man would look up to another black man rather than some random white man out in the suburbs. I dont think their cultures would be that different from each other--as various groups of Jews are. Many of these black people who have worked themselves into being successful often times did start from ground zero or may have came from the central city themselves--but moved to a safer location once they were able to do so.

I guess all the years of legal segregation, and the segregation that still exists today has had no affect on the conditions of inner city neighborhoods? I think someone had it right earlier in this thread when they said you are an outsider looking in. You don't live in these neighborhoods, and you don't seem like you've ever sat and talked with people in these neighborhoods. You seem like you are the type of person that picks up the newspaper sees something about a black person shoooting another black person, and then you equate that one incident to the whole black population lol

You bring up drugs...well ok, name me one racial group or ethnic group that doesn't have a certain aspect of their community affected by drugs. Do i have to point out that while only 12 percent of documented drug users are black, they make up nearly 50 percent of all drug possession arrests in the U.S. Its been very well documented that there is a bias in the court system when it comes to convicting drug users of diferent races. For example, Black arrest rates are generally lower in jurisdictions with large black populations, but regardless of the racial composition level the black arrest rate for any drug offense it is typically twice or greater than the white arrest rate for the same offense in the same jurisdiction.

Point is, there is an equal distribution of criminals (and law abiding citizens) among all racial and ethnic groups and blacks are no more likely to be criminals than are whites. The only difference is African Americans are more likely than others to be arrested and convicted.

You are talking to someone who lives in one of the worst areas in the state of Kentucky. I've had two relatives murdered from black on black violence. I've seen this stuff first hand. But i've also seen the good. i also graduated from college and have a full time job. Now tell me again about "these people" you seem to know so well....

and oh yeah...what race has never had a person from their own race killed by someone of the same race?

[QUOTE=Soulbrotha]I guess all the years of legal segregation, and the segregation that still exists today has had no affect on the conditions of inner city neighborhoods? I think someone had it right earlier in this thread when they said you are an outsider looking in. You don't live in these neighborhoods, and you don't seem like you've ever sat and talked with people in these neighborhoods. You seem like you are the type of person that picks up the newspaper sees something about a black person shoooting another black person, and then you equate that one incident to the whole black population lol

In Milwaukee? Blacks can live wherever they want...many choose to stay in Milwaukee rather than our white suburbs. But you cant blame all of this on segregation. Blacks lived in much worse conditions prior to the Civil War and after it....and were treated much, much, much worse than they are today. And back then when times were much rougher, you did not have the ungodly amount of murders taking place in black communities, you didnt have the rampant drug use. Looking back, the black community seemed much stronger and closer knit than it is today.

I am an outsider looking in because I am white. However, I do live quite close to these problems...mere blocks away from some of these run down apartments. However, I dont have to be black to realize black problems and why they continue to be problems, just as you dont have to be white to recognize faults of the white people who vote for Bush, whom you always take shots at. And saying that I stereotype all blacks as being murderers or murderees is wrong. However, come to Milwaukee and put on the news sometime---its 99 percent black on black crime. Rarely do you hear about murders in the Hispanic parts of town--areas that are home to some strong Chicago based gangs.

You bring up drugs...well ok, name me one racial group or ethnic group that doesn't have a certain aspect of their community affected by drugs. Do i have to point out that while only 12 percent of documented drug users are black, they make up nearly 50 percent of all drug possession arrests in the U.S. Its been very well documented that there is a bias in the court system when it comes to convicting drug users of diferent races. For example, Black arrest rates are generally lower in jurisdictions with large black populations, but regardless of the racial composition level the black arrest rate for any drug offense it is typically twice or greater than the white arrest rate for the same offense in the same jurisdiction.

I never said blacks were the only ones to be involved with drugs. White people in the suburbs screw around with weed, drink more than blacks it seems, and do other bad stuff like heroin. However, crack and hardcore drugs have not hit the white community as hard as the inner city black community it would seem. Weed is nothing--everbody has smoked it, crack fucks up your life.

And I agree there is a bias towards whites when it comes to getting in trouble with drugs with the law. However, the fact still remains that these people are still abusing drugs! Two wrongs dont make a right.


Point is, there is an equal distribution of criminals (and law abiding citizens) among all racial and ethnic groups and blacks are no more likely to be criminals than are whites. The only difference is African Americans are more likely than others to be arrested and convicted.

I didnt say that. However, you just dont have areas of cities that are torn apart by white people killing each other on a daily basis like you do with African Americans in the ghettos. Im sorry, but even you cannot deny this. And whether these neighborhoods are segregated or not....there is not excuse for murder.

You are talking to someone who lives in one of the worst areas in the state of Kentucky. I've had two relatives murdered from black on black violence. I've seen this stuff first hand. But i've also seen the good. i also graduated from college and have a full time job. Now tell me again about "these people" you seem to know so well....

Well I am not exactly living in the safest city (number 7 for murder rate in U.S.A.) or area either....people have been murdered, stabbed, beaten up etc..2-3 minutes from my house. Granted, I have a pretty crime and murder free family...but does that eliminate me from trying to understand whats goin on around me? Tell me what motives there are for these killiings? They surely arent for anything positive. You are defending these murders and rationalizing them it seems--for the sole purpose of defending black people. I am not attacking black people, but the individuals who are perfroming these crimes

And I never doubted that good things are achieved by black people....the college I went too last year was largely black. As a matter of fact, earlier posts of mine said that African Americans are a important part of American history and innovations in American. You are trying to play off this notion that white people are racist, bigots, and intolerant--attacking me for trying to understand those living in my city. I think it comes to a suprise and shock to you that someone is actually trying to ask why this is occuring in the black community---you are taking it personal, when in fact you should be delighted that white people are taking interest in your fellow African Americans. I dont have to know all aspects of black culture to make honest observations and what my thoughts are on to why there is poverty, crime, high drop out rates, and drug abuse within the worst parts of African American culture.

Any "poverty culture" is bad. The white trash are no better.

^Would you shut the fuck up already?

[QUOTE]

In Milwaukee? Blacks can live wherever they want...many choose to stay in Milwaukee rather than our white suburbs. But you cant blame all of this on segregation. Blacks lived in much worse conditions prior to the Civil War and after it....and were treated much, much, much worse than they are today. And back then when times were much rougher, you did not have the ungodly amount of murders taking place in black communities, you didnt have the rampant drug use. Looking back, the black community seemed much stronger and closer knit than it is today.

.

ummmm, i would most certainly hope the conditions today would be better than those during pre civil war.....everyone agree? lol And maybe there wasn't a big problem with drugs pre civil war because ....uh....maybe cocaine just wasn't around back then....do you think? But i know what was around....alcohol, and yes that was the drug of choice then. And it caused many bar-room fights and gun fights out west..which happend to be mostly whites against whites.....throw alcohol and cocaine in the inner city and you get the same result.....and oh, every seen gangs of new york? its a true story you know.....like i said every ethnic group or racial group has problems with violence...but you seem to only notice when blacks are involved...



[QUOTE]
However, you just dont have areas of cities that are torn apart by white people killing each other on a daily basis like you do with African Americans in the ghettos. Im sorry, but even you cannot deny this. And whether these neighborhoods are segregated or not....there is not excuse for murder.
.

Wow, what about Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, or Jeffrey Dahmer? I guess white folks only become a danger to others once they're adults. Or more likely, their race remains invisible, seen as irrelevant to their actions, even while lawbreakers of color are made to represent their larger communities. And why is it that everytime you turn on the news you see something about some white person getting killed by a nother white person, but this never brings up dialogue about white on white crime? you know...you're lacey peterson's...and yes, you can say well that was just one small incident..well if thats the case, why was it on every news channel 24-7? You want to see some white on white crime go to rural Kentucky, or rural Tennesee and tell me who is shooting each other in the trailor parks.


[QUOTE]

You are defending these murders and rationalizing them it seems--for the sole purpose of defending black people. I am not attacking black people, but the individuals who are perfroming these crimes
.

Oh is that right? Well lets see you are the one who specifically brought up blacks and crime...even though ethnicity has absolutley nothing to do with either. You didn't bring up crime and some other ethnic group, you brought up crime and blacks....so smack yourself for that.

thats an intersting point about the schools. However, I still dont think there is much that any outsider can do to stop some of the common problems plauging these areas. Murders, drugs, teen pregnancy, unemployment, dropping out....I just dont know what I could do as an outsider to the black community could do to stop it. I also dont know what the government can do either--pumping money into a problem will not solve it permanently. I guess there needs to be a will within some of these people doing this...to not get sucked into the hole of the negative aspects of this culture. Uncle Sam can try, but he wont get average joe on the street to stop abusing crack, pulling a gun out in anger, dropping out of high school or walking out on his family.

Its a tough problem to solve. It doesnt help that much of the youth listens to music that preaches being a player, a person not to be messed with, to be feared, and one who does not like the police. It sounds funny and I am one to admit that video games and movies are not going to make somebody murder someone else....but listening to this garbage constantly and the peer preasure that goes along with it is going to help lead young people down the wrong path.

It also doesnt help that there is a dislike of the police, the law....making them out to be the enemy of the black people, when in fact the enemy of black Americans are other black people! Who is it at the other end of a gun when a young black 19-20 year old is on the ground bleeding to death? Who is offering them their first hits on the crackpipe or joint? Black people leading the younger generation downhill! And it hurts not having a father figure around to show their child whats right and whats wrong, teaching them truly how to be a man-not other kids in the neighborhood. Many of these "men" having children are infact children themselves--no experience and no stable job to support their child and signifcant other. I guess some blame has to be attributed to the females, who allow themselves to be impreganated by these people, who in most cases are not their husbands. While, many may laugh at me for saying this---abstinence could help the situation. I read somewhere that the worst Milwaukee neigborhoods are like 91% single mother homes....something that must be apart of the problem.

And that is a good point about the Jewish situation you mentioned. However, I also think that a young black man would look up to another black man rather than some random white man out in the suburbs. I dont think their cultures would be that different from each other--as various groups of Jews are. Many of these black people who have worked themselves into being successful often times did start from ground zero or may have came from the central city themselves--but moved to a safer location once they were able to do so.

Redd, I do agree that all people should be able to pull themselves up by their own boot straps. And since life is not fair, you do yourself no favor by dwelling on the unfair parts.

Still, I have to say that this nation has gone through shameful eras like slavery and Jim Crow, has been forced to listen (and did) to our black community during the Civil Rights era, and yet still do not offer the type of equality we should to African Americans today. This is shameful.

So would I like to see more of a sense of personal responsibility in the ghetto? Sure. But I can't help to feel that Katrina has shown us that there is a helluva lot of resposniblity we all owe to our black community....from blacks and whites alike. I found it obscene how "cheap" the cost of black lives seemed from flooded New Orleans to the inhuman conditions of the Super Dome and the Astrodome.

We would NOT have done that to white America.

Hispanic is not a fecking race!

:rant:

and black and white are not ethnicities.


Sure is a mess out there, guys. Always has been. Our races have never really existed, but have been used as a tool to allow people to “sort” folks into different groups (even ones that don’t exist).

Meanwhile, it is virtually impossible to come up with any real, homogeneous ethnicity.

We’re more gloriously diversified, every much within the groups we preceive as we are between them. If you don’t think that is true, think of the nightmere the Census Bureau will have to go through to “classify” us in 2010, or, even more frighteningly 2020!!!

^Would you shut the fuck up already?

How's your booster chair?

[QUOTE=Soulbrotha]

ummmm, i would most certainly hope the conditions today would be better than those during pre civil war.....everyone agree? lol And maybe there wasn't a big problem with drugs pre civil war because ....uh....maybe cocaine just wasn't around back then....do you think? But i know what was around....alcohol, and yes that was the drug of choice then. And it caused many bar-room fights and gun fights out west..which happend to be mostly whites against whites.....throw alcohol and cocaine in the inner city and you get the same result.....and oh, every seen gangs of new york? its a true story you know.....like i said every ethnic group or racial group has problems with violence...but you seem to only notice when blacks are involved...

You have alcohol is still a major problem within the white community--but its not as centralized as drugs in the black inner city. And I still believe that alcholoism is not as bad as being addicted to crack. And when did I only point out the blacks? We are talking about the black inner city here...so thats what I talking about. However, which other areas of cities are more hard hit with drugs than the inner city--mainly populated by black people?




Wow, what about Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, or Jeffrey Dahmer? I guess white folks only become a danger to others once they're adults. Or more likely, their race remains invisible, seen as irrelevant to their actions, even while lawbreakers of color are made to represent their larger communities. And why is it that everytime you turn on the news you see something about some white person getting killed by a nother white person, but this never brings up dialogue about white on white crime? you know...you're lacey peterson's...and yes, you can say well that was just one small incident..well if thats the case, why was it on every news channel 24-7? You want to see some white on white crime go to rural Kentucky, or rural Tennesee and tell me who is shooting each other in the trailor parks.

these serial killers may be famous, but really.......why are their crimes more shocking than what happens in the inner city? These are just high profile crimes...especially the Lacey Peterson murder. God rest her soul, but Christ--she is just number added on to our 16,000 murder a year total. Some of them may have been crazy or ate people--but crimes like that are not anywhere as common as shooting deaths in the innner city. Every night, some black guy is gunned down for some stupid shit--stuff that is just as ridicolous as why Manson killed. People in the inner city arent being murdered for their money--they got murdered because the guy with the gun was pissed at them, gave a weird look to the wrong guy, said the wrong thing, or was apart of some rival "gang". I can name off some of the ridicolous things people have been murdered for in this city--from arguing over dresses, to chicken dinners, to disputes at a church fair, honking the horn, and a dispute over a pool game.



Oh is that right? Well lets see you are the one who specifically brought up blacks and crime...even though ethnicity has absolutley nothing to do with either. You didn't bring up crime and some other ethnic group, you brought up crime and blacks....so smack yourself for that.

ethnicity doesnt, but it seems that living in the inner city does! Why do all of my cities murders take place in the central city? Why are the shooters and victims 90% black? Seldom to you hear about a white man getting gunned down by a black man. And look at this map, why are there more murders occuring the black ghettos as opposed to the Mexican parts of town---areas where people come in probally more poor than the black man and dont even speak our language? I think this is a legitamite question to ask why these black people here are more likely to pull a gun than someone else within the city.

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/2477/homi1010106big4rt.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Redd, I do agree that all people should be able to pull themselves up by their own boot straps. And since life is not fair, you do yourself no favor by dwelling on the unfair parts.

Still, I have to say that this nation has gone through shameful eras like slavery and Jim Crow, has been forced to listen (and did) to our black community during the Civil Rights era, and yet still do not offer the type of equality we should to African Americans today. This is shameful.

So would I like to see more of a sense of personal responsibility in the ghetto? Sure. But I can't help to feel that Katrina has shown us that there is a helluva lot of resposniblity we all owe to our black community....from blacks and whites alike. I found it obscene how "cheap" the cost of black lives seemed from flooded New Orleans to the inhuman conditions of the Super Dome and the Astrodome.

We would NOT have done that to white America.

oh, I totally agree about the wrongs committed by white people in years previous. However, slavery was a hundered fifty years ago and blantant racism ended 40-50 years ago....when are we going to get over that? How can these places progress if they are always looking back on slavery and Jim Crow, blaming the white people for all their misforturnes? Im sorry, but blame has to be attributed to those commiting the crimes and living their lives the way they do. I agree with Bill Cosby and I cant believe I am saying this, but Mayor Ray Nagin. These two men are harsly critcized for saying these black people need to wake up, take responsibilty for what they do and for their families. We can pour all this money into the central city, build nicer government financed homes, bring jobs down here, give them food stamps, tax breaks, college tuition breaks, and the numerous other breaks given to those who dont have alot--but it will never solve this fundamental problem.


Yeah, in the South its one thing, but what are the excuses for these living in Milwaukee, Detroit, Chicago, NYC, and other northern cities not hit as hard as Birmingham, Atlanta, or Memphis? I am not doubting that there was racism or segregation in these northern cities, but you didnt have level of racism as you did the South. But the fact remains that even while times were unfair and tough for the Southern blacks during the reconstruction and the Civil Rights movement--their neighborhoods were not anywhere as bad as they are today. And the stength of family was stronger back then, rather than today where you have one woman raising a few children--her husband with another woman who has his kids, in prison, on drugs, or even dead. And this isnt just black people either...whites have made our idea of marriage and love more laugable than blacks.

And speaking of the Superdome/Katrina fiasco--which I agree was mishandled greatly.....I would reckon that a large percentage of the money, goods, and other helpful items donated to victims was by white people. White people living in the suburbs too. Much of the volunteers were white as well. The American government may have dropped the ball on New Orleans, but white people didnt.

[QUOTE]

You have alcohol is still a major problem within the white community--but its not as centralized as drugs in the black inner city. And I still believe that alcholoism is not as bad as being addicted to crack. And when did I only point out the blacks? We are talking about the black inner city here...so thats what I talking about. However, which other areas of cities are more hard hit with drugs than the inner city--mainly populated by black people?


Hummm…..do you not know that the majority of drug users in this country are not minorities? According to the federal Household Survey, "most current illicit drug users are white. There were an estimated 9.9 million whites (72 percent of all users), 2.0 million blacks (15 percent), and 1.4 million Hispanics (10 percent) who were current illicit drug users in 1998." And yet, blacks constitute 36.8% of those arrested for drug violations, over 42% of those in federal prisons for drug violations. African-Americans comprise almost 58% of those in state prisons for drug felonies; Hispanics account for 20.7%…..so hey….maybe what you think about the inner city and drugs is true in your head, but the numbers DON’T ADD UP. I think the media would like people to think African Americans are the root of all evil when drugs are concerned…but that’s the way the system was formed. In 1986, before mandatory minimums for crack offenses became effective, the average federal drug offense sentence for blacks was 11% higher than for whites. Four years later following the implementation of harsher drug sentencing laws, the average federal drug offense sentence was 49% higher for blacks. So…. why are blacks disproportionately targeted for drugs, when whites are the majority of users?





[QUOTE]
these serial killers may be famous, but really.......why are their crimes more shocking than what happens in the inner city? These are just high profile crimes...especially the Lacey Peterson murder. God rest her soul, but Christ--she is just number added on to our 16,000 murder a year total. Some of them may have been crazy or ate people--but crimes like that are not anywhere as common as shooting deaths in the inner city. Every night, some black guy is gunned down for some stupid shit--stuff that is just as ridiculous as why Manson killed. People in the inner city aren’t being murdered for their money--they got murdered because the guy with the gun was pissed at them, gave a weird look to the wrong guy, said the wrong thing, or was apart of some rival "gang". I can name off some of the ridiculous things people have been murdered for in this city--from arguing over dresses, to chicken dinners, to disputes at a church fair, honking the horn, and a dispute over a pool game.


So…. I can name far more ridiculous things that happened in the suburbs….point? Why is the murder rate so high in the inner city? Why are there so many guns in the inner cities? Do blacks own some gun factory somewhere? I think not. Bottom line is the federal and state government is doing nothing of any merit to attack violence in the inner city….creating the three strikes rule, and mandatory sentencing laws, the death penalty, and putting nearly one million blacks behind bars has done little to curb the black-on-black carnage….and statistics have shown this. And it won’t do anything…where are the pending solutions for inner city crime? I see none.



[QUOTE]
ethnicity doesnt, but it seems that living in the inner city does! Why do all of my cities murders take place in the central city? Why are the shooters and victims 90% black? Seldom to you hear about a white man getting gunned down by a black man. And look at this map, why are there more murders occuring the black ghettos as opposed to the Mexican parts of town---areas where people come in probally more poor than the black man and dont even speak our language? I think this is a legitamite question to ask why these black people here are more likely to pull a gun than someone else within the city.



It seems like you think inner city is not a part of America…sorry it is just a part of American as the suburb you probably grew up in. So why is it ignored more than the suburbs? Violence umong African Americans is a twisted, and warped response to racism and deprivation, blocked opportunities, powerlessness and alienation. But hey!…this is America those can’t really be the reasons can they? I wonder why when Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold went on there rampage in Columbine the media was fixed on trying to figure out where these two white kids got all those damn guns from…and even went as far as to blame the gun manufactures,,, what in the hell? So why is it that it took Columbine to get congress to act on gun violence when it takes place in the inner city and not to far from the white house every single day? Do you not see the obvious issue of race in this picture? Columbine=instant debate on gun control….inner city violence=long ,washed up, ineffective debate that does nothing. Why are black lives not seen as just as valuable as those kids killed in columbine?

Do you not know that gun ownership among American whites is the highest in the world. The low rate of violent crimes is not just a white phenomenon either; gun crimes among middle and upper-class blacks is comparable to that of whites. Rather than admit their mistake, politicians set out to make it taboo to point out that this nation’s bloated violent crime rate has become mostly an ethnic phenomenon. Rather than questioning their failed social programs they have chosen to blame guns. Their new mantra became, “If the guns go away, the social programs will succeed.” Never mind that the cities that have the most restrictive gun control have the highest crime rates, and that states that have loosened the requirements for concealed carry permits have seen a subsequent drop in their own crime rates.

Its plain and quite simply!!!!!!!!!!!!! our troublesome crime rate is driven by destructive social policies, that are now kept in place to buy votes, and gun control is an attempt to deflect criticism from these liberal failures and to pretend the cause of all these failures is an inanimate object—the gun.

American is synonymous with violence..point blank PERIOD. And it doesnt help when you throw in poverty, drugs, and alcohol either.

oh, I totally agree about the wrongs committed by white people in years previous. However, slavery was a hundered fifty years ago and blantant racism ended 40-50 years ago.....


and this was determined by you? lol get out of here.

and this was determined by you? lol get out of here.

have you worked a cotton field lately Soul? Have you been barred from eating where I am eating? Forced to sit behind me on the bus? Stopped from going to the same school as I do? Sorry, but judging by your picture...you were not alive during the Civil Rights movement. You live in a society than in some regards is advantacious to the black man. How about you and me go try out to be firemen Soul? I have this little voice in my head telling me that you are going to win that conest!

have you worked a cotton field lately Soul? Have you been barred from eating where I am eating? Forced to sit behind me on the bus? Stopped from going to the same school as I do? Sorry, but judging by your picture...you were not alive during the Civil Rights movement. You live in a society than in some regards is advantacious to the black man. How about you and me go try out to be firemen Soul? I have this little voice in my head telling me that you are going to win that conest!

No I haven't worked a cotton field lately....but I do know the current average African American net worth is the same that it was during the ending of the civil war.... which is about $6,100 ...compared to $67,000 for a White family.

Have I been stopped from eating where I want? No, but I would at least think you wouldn't be as naive to think that racism only takes place when someone has a "whites only" sign on the door.

Lol Fireman huh? What in the world are you talking about? get out of here ....not even worth it.

What are you talking about? The median family income is about $45,000 for whites and $30,000 for blacks. Ironically whites don't even have the highest paychecks, as both Asians ($60,000) and Pacific Islanders ($46,000) have higher median incomes.

I said NET WORTH

The median net worth of an African-American family is $6,100 compared to $67,000 for a White family;
http://www.amsterdamnews.org/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=4489&sID=3

thats comparable to the net worth African Americans had during the years after the end of the civil war.

What are you talking about? The median family income is about $45,000 for whites and $30,000 for blacks. Ironically whites don't even have the highest paychecks, as both Asians ($60,000) and Pacific Islanders ($46,000) have higher median incomes.

but since you brought it up...thats still a 15,000 dollar gap. And pacific Islanders only make up...0.1% of the U.S. population as of 2002, and Asians only 3.6%...blacks 12.6%...

You can be dumb as a brick and bumble your way through life, and if you're white, there's a good chance you're still going to have a relatively comfortable existance. Why? Because getting by in life for most people has nothing to do with skill or determination, and everything to do with family ties and the network that they are plugged into. For instance, high paying jobs in the skilled trades (plumbing, electricians, carpentry, etc ...) are held almost exlusively by suburban whites, because it's the "FBI network" (stands for Fathers and Brothers in Law) that puts people into those jobs, into the apprenticeships where they learn the trade. The network is white, so the jobs typically go to whites. It's all about who you know, not what you know. And when you're white you simply more know people who can hook you up into the right jobs.

So, if you're white, you have a built in safety net, a network, to carry you through life. If you're black, you don't have that safety net. You don't have the network. Succeeding without a built in network takes an extraordinary guile and talent, because it's hard to plug yourself into a network instead of have someone plug you in for you. And, by definition most people are not extraordinary, black or white. But if you're white, and average, chances are you'll do fine. If you're black you have to be somewhat extraordinary to plug yourself into the right networks to succeed.

Our society has plenty of examples of extraordinary African Americans who clawed their way to the top through sheer grit and determination. We should rightly honor them. But Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama are not average people, they are extraordinary people. Take a look at the those "average" jobs that really anybody could do with the right training, the kind of jobs people usually get through people they know. Next time you see a construction site count the number of Black guys you see on the site. Chances are you're not going to see very many.

thank you^

actually the net worths i posted earlier were out of date ..as of 2005 the median net worth for African Americans was $ 5,900 compared to $88,651 for whites. even more alarming, 32% of Africans have zero or negative net worth. African Americans combined total net worth is only 1.2 % of the total net worth of nation...those numbers have not changed since the end of civil war in 1865

from the book The Covenant with black America
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0883782774/qid=1140892727/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-1639968-0800644?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

No I haven't worked a cotton field lately....but I do know the current average African American net worth is the same that it was during the ending of the civil war.... which is about $6,100 ...compared to $67,000 for a White family.

Have I been stopped from eating where I want? No, but I would at least think you wouldn't be as naive to think that racism only takes place when someone has a "whites only" sign on the door.

Lol Fireman huh? What in the world are you talking about? get out of here ....not even worth it.

a) read hudkinas post

b) where else do you encounter racism? Isnt it possible that many whites the victims of racism too?

c)what in world am I talking about? I am talking about favortism towards minorities in getting city and civic jobs....and dont even deny that fact. Not only that, but in college and getting certain types of grants and benefits. Dont try to tell me that blacks are getting the shit end of the stick in all instances.

Our society has plenty of examples of extraordinary African Americans who clawed their way to the top through sheer grit and determination. We should rightly honor them. But Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama are not average people, they are extraordinary people. Take a look at the those "average" jobs that really anybody could do with the right training, the kind of jobs people usually get through people they know. Next time you see a construction site count the number of Black guys you see on the site. Chances are you're not going to see very many.

Id disagree about the construction thing. Driving home along Silver Spring, where there was alot of contruction--I would see mainly blacks working those jobs. I also see many of them working on the Marquette Interchange project. And on that note, I see a ton of black police officers, black firefighters, black educators, blacks working for the Parks department, working for the County, garbage, and alot of other city/county jobs.

However, you will not get these sort of jobs when you dont graduate high school or have an extensive criminal record. Not all blacks have criminal records or are lacking a degree--but many in the inner cities are. This is one of the reasons why there is poverty--because no decent job is going to hire people like this.

You can be dumb as a brick and bumble your way through life, and if you're white, there's a good chance you're still going to have a relatively comfortable existance. Why? Because getting by in life for most people has nothing to do with skill or determination, and everything to do with family ties and the network that they are plugged into. For instance, high paying jobs in the skilled trades (plumbing, electricians, carpentry, etc ...) are held almost exlusively by suburban whites, because it's the "FBI network" (stands for Fathers and Brothers in Law) that puts people into those jobs, into the apprenticeships where they learn the trade. The network is white, so the jobs typically go to whites. It's all about who you know, not what you know. And when you're white you simply more know people who can hook you up into the right jobs.
.

That is how trades work--they get their children to carry on in their footsteps and run the business. You cant blame them for not hiring some random black guy from the inner city. Why hire them when you can hire your own blood?

I also dont buy that there arent tradespeople looking for help, outside their families.

a) read hudkinas post

b) where else do you encounter racism? Isnt it possible that many whites the victims of racism too?

c)what in world am I talking about? I am talking about favortism towards minorities in getting city and civic jobs....and dont even deny that fact. Not only that, but in college and getting certain types of grants and benefits. Dont try to tell me that blacks are getting the shit end of the stick in all instances.

A)I read his posts, and already addressed it.

B) are Whites the victims of racism? Ok lets break down racism.

racialism:
the belief that there are differences between human beings which are inherited such that it they can be ordered into separate races in such a way that each race shares traits and tendencies which are not shared my members of any other race. each race has an 'essence'.

all forms of racism build from the premise of racialism. notice that racialism is not saying anything 'good' or 'bad' about races just that mutually exclusive races absolutely exist and divide the species.

extrinsic racism- the extrinsic racist says that there is a moral component to the 'essence' of a race which warrants differential treatment. these differences are, to the extrinsic racist, not particularly controversial.

intrinsic racism-the intrinsic racist says that the moral 'essence' of a race establishes an incontrovertable status for the race. no matter what an individual member of a race does he should be treated just like the rest of his race.

Rule 1: always try to distinguish between individual racism and institutional racism.

Anyone can be an individual racist if they believe in the inherent inferiority/superiority of one race over another, or if they advocate basing the treatment of others on their race.

Blacks can't be very racist at the institutional level, for to really be racist at that level, they would have to control a large enough chunk of this nation's institutions to act on whatever individual racist tendencies they might have.

So, I would say that VERY few whites if any are victims of racism at the hands of blacks. However, I think some blacks are prejudice and stereotype Whites, Asians, and any other group of people. Remember, racism and being prejudice are two different things. You can be prjudice towards a certain pair of shoes, you can't be racist towards a pair of shoes lol

Racism is the use of power to hender the social upward mobility of a certain group of people. Since black people only make up 12 percent of the population, I would think it would be hard for them to use the amount of power they have to hender the advancement of Whites. You can obviously tell thats true just by the Net worths I posted earlier. If blacks were so racist towards whites, how have whites managed to be on top of the economic totem pole for so long?


C)Listen....even if what you said is true about blacks getting preference in civi jobs or whatever, Whites would still outnumber blacks in every fire department in this country. Because last time i checked whites outnumber blacks in this country by ohhhh....75.1%

and what I think is wrong here is that you people are trying to rationalize murder, drug use, crime, and irresponsibilty because of slavery, job situation, and segregation. This is why the problem will never be solved, because people like Soul are just going to point fingers towards a history book, rather the ones actually creating and continuing the problems in the central city.

How less poor would a person be if they finished high school, didnt have a child at 17 years old, not been to prison, and used the college grant money to put themselves through so they could land a supportive job? Even white people have a difficult time raising kids, going to college, and working at the same time! Get with the picture people...blacks are not the only ones struggling to make ends meet. And speaking of college...the dean at the technical school (MATC) I went to last year talked about the huge pool of money readilly available to these less privilleged people to help put them through school. He also mention how nobody makes use of it! Like I mentioned, I went to school with alot of black people--a good majority of them from the Northside. Why are they able to go to college and make themselves successful when others are not? Perhaps, its because these people made the right choices in life?

That is how trades work--they get their children to carry on in their footsteps and run the business. You cant blame them for not hiring some random black guy from the inner city. Why hire them when you can hire your own blood?

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just using the skilled trades as an example of how wealth and privledge are passed down through generations, and how wealth and privledge are contained within close-knit communities. I doubt many people are thinking in 2006 "I'm not going to hire that guy because he's black." When they have a job to fill the first place they go is to their personal network. 75% of jobs are never advertised in the paper. That's why it's important to know the "right people." When you are black, the odds of knowing the "right people" in your particular field are much smaller than if you're white, because blacks and whites tend to live such a separate existance in most cities, and, as Soulbrotha has pointed out, the vast majority of business and other institutions in the US are run by whites. So as time goes on whites have a leg up over others because they are more likely to know the "right people" that help them get a job.

You are correct to point out that a lot of municipal jobs are held by African Americans. These are civil service jobs that by law have to advertise vacancies and have to select people based on a sembelance of an "objective" standard. But guess what: teachers, cops, firefighters ... these are the rank and file people in society who don't really hold any real power. These are the people doing the hard work on the front lines that makes society function. But the people actually making the decisions, moving money and holding sway are the people you don't see. 99% of those people are white, and they got to where they are today through personal connections. The doors to these positions are closed to those without the connections. Influence, wealth, power ... these things are kept within a close circle of people.

C)Listen....even if what you said is true about blacks getting preference in civi jobs or whatever, Whites would still outnumber blacks in every fire department in this country. Because last time i checked whites outnumber blacks in this country by ohhhh....75.1%

yeah and? Should we just give every job to blacks because they are the minority? Is that fair...to give preference to you over me....just because you happen to have a darker tone of skin color?

Your argument just hurts black people Soul, you dont understand that. You are essentially saying that black people cannot achieve success on their own.

And if all you say is true, why can Mexican immigrants come into the U.S.--not knowing much English, are much poorer, and have a bigger family--able to succeed so quickly? Same with Asian immigrants? Why are they the top notch students, high income earners---when most of them came to the U.S. in a similar situation?

There should be an individual forum on race relations.

and what I think is wrong here is that you people are trying to rationalize murder, drug use, crime, and irresponsibilty because of slavery, job situation, and segregation. This is why the problem will never be solved, because people like Soul are just going to point fingers towards a history book, rather the ones actually creating and continuing the problems in the central city.


Well the word rationalize can be interpreted two different ways….one way would be to say people who rationalize attempt to apologize: defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses.. Or on the other hand , a person who rationalize could be employing logic or reason; "When one wonders why one is doing certain things, one should rationalize"
I would go with the latter. To just put crime in the inner city off as something that exist because certain people are a certain “way” is idiotic. It is implying that these conditions in the inner city were not created over time as the result of economic and social disparities, some of which still exist today is just crazy. And that is the truth my friend…even though you will never believe it. And until those things are addressed and corrected, things in the inner city will continue to go down hill.


How less poor would a person be if they finished high school, didnt have a child at 17 years old, not been to prison, and used the college grant money to put themselves through so they could land a supportive job? Even white people have a difficult time raising kids, going to college, and working at the same time! Get with the picture people...blacks are not the only ones struggling to make ends meet. And speaking of college...the dean at the technical school (MATC) I went to last year talked about the huge pool of money readilly available to these less privilleged people to help put them through school. He also mention how nobody makes use of it! Like I mentioned, I went to school with alot of black people--a good majority of them from the Northside. Why are they able to go to college and make themselves successful when others are not? Perhaps, its because these people made the right choices in life?

Only a very small percent of the black population have babies at 17...get your facts straight. If you really want to argue something, why don’t you stop talking about what happened to you in Milwaukee and go get some real statistics that back up your claim? Go get some statistics that show the rate of African Americans that graduate and get jobs, and those who don’t, and whether they get jobs or not. Go get some statistics that show the percentage of African Americans who have babies at 17. Then maybe you will actually add a little validity to your argument.

I've noticed whites usually have trouble admitting racism still exists, and when they do, it's always a relunctant admission.

There's no point in arguing with them though, it's like trying to explain religion to an atheist, or war to a liberal. Just ain't gonna happen.

yeah and? Should we just give every job to blacks because they are the minority? Is that fair...to give preference to you over me....just because you happen to have a darker tone of skin color?


No, I’m saying hypothetically that if every black man woman and child in this country was given a job over a white person, whites would have nothing to worry about because blacks only make up 12 percent of the population. Thus THERE WOULD BE THOUSANDS OF JOBS LEFT. Am I saying that should happened? No…will it ever happened? No.


Your argument just hurts black people Soul, you don’t understand that. You are essentially saying that black people cannot achieve success on their own.


I am? When did I say that? Who brought up the subject? I think you did…..remember, you said something about fireman? SO in actuality, you were the one who said blacks can’t do it on there own….remember now?


And if all you say is true, why can Mexican immigrants come into the U.S.--not knowing much English, are much poorer, and have a bigger family--able to succeed so quickly? Same with Asian immigrants? Why are they the top notch students, high income earners---when most of them came to the U.S. in a similar situation?

Those are some good ass questions. Why has the median net worth of African Americans not changed since the ending of the Civil war in 1865? I think those questions deserve a broader review. Some people would say the way that our country is organized into segregated communities has something to do with it. Some would say the high unemployment rate among blacks has something to do with it. Some would say the disproportionate amount of black men who are arrested for little offenses that white men only receive warnings for, find it hard to find a job because they now have a criminal record….but hey…you wouldn’t say those things happen would you?

And I’m not sure what you say about Mexican’s coming to America and finding work with the snap of a finger is true. In 2004, fewer than 39 percent of black men between the ages of 16 and 24 had a job. The comparable national numbers for Hispanics and whites were 60 percent and 59 percent. All three groups lost ground between 2000 and 2004. Blacks started from a lower point and fell further.

edit

Only a very small percent of the black population have babies at 17...get your facts straight. If you really want to argue something, why don’t you stop talking about what happened to you in Milwaukee and go get some real statistics that back up your claim? Go get some statistics that show the rate of African Americans that graduate and get jobs, and those who don’t, and whether they get jobs or not. Go get some statistics that show the percentage of African Americans who have babies at 17. Then maybe you will actually add a little validity to your argument.

we arent talking about the black population as a whole..we are talking about the central city, where the problems are.

you want some facts and figures...

-Wisconsins black teen birth rate--highest in the nation. Second highest in pregnancies. The Story (http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/feb04/209126.asp)

-http://img117.imageshack.us/img117//preg21g1wc.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Wisconsin - where three of every four African-Americans live in Milwaukee - has the nation's highest rates of black teenage births and black incarceration, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation and U.S. Justice Department, respectively.

- -More than one thousand MPS (Milwaukee Public School) youth are incarcerated or in detention for some time each year Wisconsin’s incarceration rate for blacks is the highest in the U.S..

-Cleveland City had the lowest graduation rate among African-American students with 29%, followed by Milwaukee, Memphis, and Gwinett County, Georgia.

-Wisconsin had the lowest graduation rate among African-American students with 40%, followed by Minnesota, Georgia, and Tennessee


- Last year, 68.0 percent of the black women who had babies were unmarried, down from 68.4 percent in 2001. The peak was 70.4 percent in 1994.--a national figure.

-Milwaukee had the highest black unemployment rate of the major cities surveyed in 2002 by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The bureau also found that 59% of Milwaukee's black males 16 and older were idle, and that the city's black unemployment rate was more than three times its white unemployment rate.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/4324/single03g12zi.gif (http://imageshack.us)

does that cover it for Milwaukee? And we arent too vastly different from Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, New Orleans, Chicago, or Louisville.

And I’m not sure what you say about Mexican’s coming to America and finding work with the snap of a finger is true. In 2004, fewer than 39 percent of black men between the ages of 16 and 24 had a job. The comparable national numbers for Hispanics and whites were 60 percent and 59 percent. All three groups lost ground between 2000 and 2004. Blacks started from a lower point and fell further.

most of them have found jobs coming into America--however newly arrived immigrants are taking more lower income jobs. Thats not too shocking considering the same happened to white Europeans in the 1800's-1900's. Unemployment with U.S. Latinos has greatly fallen too.

and by the way, this thread is wearing me out. Like Jerry Springer, here is my final thoughts.......

America has had a turbulent history....many of its citizens have had rough lives--where the "land of the free" did not apply to them. However, we cannot look back years ago and dwell on that fact. We need to dwell on the problems at hand that are causing so much trouble for innocent blacks in the central city--blaming those who are causing these problems.

Thank you!

again...yo ucannot look at the stats from milwaukee and say that represents the whole black population. Get out of your little box why don't you?

Quote:
Wisconsin - where three of every four African-Americans live in Milwaukee - has the nation's highest rates of black teenage births and black incarceration, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation and U.S. Justice Department, respectively.

---------------------ok so what does this prove? whats being done by your state to improve this?



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Quote:
-More than one thousand MPS (Milwaukee Public School) youth are incarcerated or in detention for some time each year Wisconsin’s incarceration rate for blacks is the highest in the U.S..

----------ok we already established black males are disproportionatly put in jail and prison.. what is your state doing to improve this?


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Quote:
Cleveland City had the lowest graduation rate among African-American students with 29%, followed by Milwaukee, Memphis, and Gwinett County, Georgia.
---------------ok.............what is the Government doing to improve this?


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Quote:
Wisconsin had the lowest graduation rate among African-American students with 40%, followed by Minnesota, Georgia, and Tennessee
-----------------ok?



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Quote:
Last year, 68.0 percent of the black women who had babies were unmarried, down from 68.4 percent in 2001. The peak was 70.4 percent in 1994.


-------ok, so what about white woman, and other groups? what is the government doing to improve this?

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Quote:
Milwaukee had the highest black unemployment rate of the major cities surveyed in 2002 by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The bureau also found that 59% of Milwaukee's black males 16 and older were idle, and that the city's black unemployment rate was more than three times its white unemployment rate.
---------------ok? we know blacks have a high unemployment rate, again you're only pointing out things that have already been pointed out..

So by you posting all these statistics about black people is proving what? Why are you not comparing them to the numbers of whites and other minority groups? If you don't compare its pretty much pointless.

You're really making your self look stupid dude. I agree you need to give it a rest lol

and by the way, this thread is wearing me out. Like Jerry Springer, here is my final thoughts.......

America has had a turbulent history....many of its citizens have had rough lives--where the "land of the free" did not apply to them. However, we cannot look back years ago and dwell on that fact. We need to dwell on the problems at hand that are causing so much trouble for innocent blacks in the central city--blaming those who are causing these problems.

Thank you!

Here is where I already agree with you, and where we are on the same page: Black America does need to place more emphasis on the things it can change than what it has currently put on that. And, much of Black America realizes the things that we can change, but haven't at the speed capable of us.

Here is where I completely disagree with you: We CAN and SHOULD look back at history, the reason being things that happen in the past CAN and DO have HUGE implications on where we are at the moment. We should be JUST as aware of the past, as we are of the present in the future. They are three EQUAL parts of a whole. Now, if you believe that Black America is looking back more than it should, that is definitely a good argument you could make. But, your whole attitude seems to be that we shouldn't have to face the unresolved issues of the past. And what that does is remove this country from its responsibility to correct and provide for ALL of its citizens the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If Hurricane Katrina has tought us nothing it is that the Civil Rights Movement is not over, and it never died try and some might have to kill it. It showed that we have MUCH further to go than so many of us claim.

My very last point is that as much as you may believe that Black America is not living up to its potential, that in NO WAY relieves greater society of its responsibility to ensure that ALL Americans are afforded and provided the basic civil rights and promises that this country is supposed to provide for all of its citizens, which it hasn't done to this very day. To deny that the government has dropped the ball on social issues (be it for any race) is completely unfounded, ignorant, offensive and foolish.

The United State's promises to its law-abidding citizens under the bill of rights are uncoditional and non-negotiable. They are civil, human rights which have yet to be completely, effectively, and fairly applied for all of its citizens across the board. Period.

You wouldn't have seen a "Katrina Effect" in Canada. That is, they've made it a top priortiy to foster and grow the idea of treating all of its citizens as equally as possible, immigrant, native, ethinic alike. We wouldn't have seen its minority citizens stranded on islands within their own city like that. They don't make their cities dumping grounds for the poor and/or minorities like we do. This is a bit off subject, but I just thought I'd point them out as an example.

My very last point is that as much as you may believe that Black America is not living up to its potential, that is NO WAY relieves the greater society of its responsibility to ensure that ALL Americans are entitled to the basic civil rights and promises that this country is supposed to have for all of its citizens, which it doesn't have to this very day. To deny that the government has dropped the ball on social issues (be it for any race) is completely unfounded, ignorant, offensive and foolish.

The United State's promises to its law-abidding citizens under the bill of rights are uncoditional and non-negotiable. They are civil, human rights which have yet to be completely, effectively, and fairly applied for all of its citizens across the board. Period.

Well said.

Remember when Bill Cosby first came out in a big way with his talk of personal responsibility? Most African Americans I know were happy that he voiced publicly what has been the opinion of many in the Black community for years. But they also were a little apprehensive, believing that by letting the rest of the world in on a conversation that has largely gone on among Black Americans themselves, Cosby gave ammunition to the "blame only the Blacks for their own problems" crowd. People like Redd can use the problems plagueing the Black community and Cosby's message of personal responsibility as fodder for a lifetime of a "what's wrong with these people?" approach to race relations. But looking at things this way oversimplifies the situation and ignores the fact that the life story of any human being is shaped by two sometimes opposing forces: the drive that is inside each person, and pressures placed upon that person by society. In retrospect maybe Cosby should have kept his comments within the Black community. That way what he had to say would have not have been twisted around into "see, I told you there's something wrong with those people!"

Percisely, my good man, percisely.

Personal responsibility is but one issue. And I find far too many that feel themselves self-righteous, or those secretly prejudiced who felt not the power to voice their attitude before, now have all the fodder in the world to criticise from the wings.

There are two equally important arguments, here, for both the Black community, and the whole of America. Latching too heavily onto one sides is a very telling way of finding where someones heart and mind really sits on the issue of diversity, cultural sensitivity, and human civil rights.

Easily the most discriminated group in America and the world, aside from a handful of countries, is gay people. People are even allowed to vote, in America, on which rights gay people can have and cannot have. Has anyone seen the shocking statistics of suicide rates and suicide attempt rates for gay people. Every race discriminates against gay people. So a gay person probably sees no difference between black or white people or any race. They are all oppressors.

well I am glad we agree in some regards, however what the U.S. government does should not cause the inner city black community to shoot itself in the foot! Yes, there is racism still prevailent....however black people do get alot of extra attention, extra money, and discounts that many white families would not receive. You are basically rationalizing murder, crime, drugs, and other ills because of this so called racism against blacks. You are ignoring the facts that people are being killed everyday, not because of the KKK or a blinded U.S. government--but by other blacks who killing off the sole breadwinner of the struggling black family!

Why is there poverty in the central city? Read my facts again Soulbrotha! Alot of people dont think a high school degree is important--dont you think it is? What good job can a white person get without a high school diploma in 21st century America? How easy is it to land a job with a criminal record? My good friend is white, was thrown in prison--and its has a very tough time finding work. 1,000 MPS studens a year are thrown in prison--what a good start for the rest of their life eh?

Who should be stressing education in the inner cities then? The U.S. government? No, the parents! These same parents who are not stressing education, providing a horrible example for their children! Are you denying this fact? If these parents were stressing education as much as you say they are---then why arent they going? Im sorry but money does not have the same effects as good parenting? Good parenting from irresponsbile parents who are only adults because of age--its a very tough thing to expect. And really now, how can the inner city black family be strong when there is only one woman raising children? Where are the fathers, the fathers who historicaly are the ones to earn the paycheck to support his children and provide an example to them?

You overlook these funadmental facts and point your fingers at white people and white government....and that is wrong. You can eliminate racism, elect a black president, and just increase spending on the central city--but nothing will eliminate this problem except for the people themselves? What do we need to do--pay these inner city people a check just for being poor and black,give them a free house, free car, free education (which in Milwaukee, poor people are allowed a free ride to private schools--which other blacks and whites with slightly higher incomes are working hard to send their kids.)---will that eliminate the problem? How will any of this solve the problem? Im sorry but that kind of thinking just makes the black person a slave again--a slave of the government. It makes the younger generation of poor black people think that they can only be successful when the white man signs the piece of paper---rather than through hard work, sacrifice, and frugalism? Ask any successful black man and he will probally tell you that he got to where he is today from his hard work. This type of thinking is very demeaning to the successful black man.

Im sorry if you think I am wrong or misguided...a white fool has no idea what he is talking about. I am not getting payed to say this--I am doing this in my own free time----trying to understand why the inner city is why it is. Milwaukee has one of the hardest hit inner cities and I live quite close to it--so my trying to understand it is not wrong. I have said nothing racist one bit--rather my message is empowering the black man, saying that he can carve his own future, solve his own problems. You have this misguided view that all white people have the same views of black people as those during the Reconstruction or the 60's. Who was it that busted open their checkbooks to aid the black people in New Orleans anyway? Poor African Americans? Perhaps some, but a good number of that money came from the bank accounts of white people--the same white people that embraced these black Katrina-refugees who came to their cities after the Hurricane. And who was killing, stealing, and raping each other in the Superdome?

well I am glad we agree in some regards, however what the U.S. government does should not cause the inner city black community to shoot itself in the foot! Yes, there is racism still prevailent....however black people do get alot of extra attention, extra money, and discounts that many white families would not receive. You are basically rationalizing murder, crime, drugs, and other ills because of this so called racism against blacks. You are ignoring the facts that people are being killed everyday, not because of the KKK or a blinded U.S. government--but by other blacks who killing off the sole breadwinner of the struggling black family!


You still make no sense, and fail to want the u.s. government to take more responsibility for the state of some of its communities. This is the richest nation in the WORLD, yet also one of the most violent. Like I said before there isn’t any racial or ethnic group in this nation who doesn’t have a history, and still some aspect of violence and drugs in their communities. NOT ONE! What is all this extra attention you are talking about? “discounts” what in the world?


Why is there poverty in the central city? Read my facts again Soulbrotha! Alot of people dont think a high school degree is important--dont you think it is? What good job can a white person get without a high school diploma in 21st century America? How easy is it to land a job with a criminal record? My good friend is white, was thrown in prison--and its has a very tough time finding work. 1,000 MPS studens a year are thrown in prison--what a good start for the rest of their life eh?


C’mon you know good and well why there is poverty in the inner city, you can try to cast the blame away from the federal government all you want, but you are not facing reality. You want to address poverty, you have to address economics and the unequal distribution of wealth that has plagued this country for centuries. Again why is the median net worth of blacks only 6,000 dollars compared to 88,000 for whites? A number, for blacks, that hasn’t changed since 1865? But hey, I guess that has nothing to do with poverty either in your small little brain.



Who should be stressing education in the inner cities then? The U.S. government? No, the parents! These same parents who are not stressing education, providing a horrible example for their children! Are you denying this fact? If these parents were stressing education as much as you say they are---then why arent they going? Im sorry but money does not have the same effects as good parenting? Good parenting from irresponsbile parents who are only adults because of age--its a very tough thing to expect. And really now, how can the inner city black family be strong when there is only one woman raising children? Where are the fathers, the fathers who historicaly are the ones to earn the paycheck to support his children and provide an example to them?


Ok, so why when two students opened fire in columbine and other mostly white high schools during the late 90’s did the federal government instantly step in and begin writing new gun laws? We see gun violence in the inner city all the time, but that doesn’t cause U.S. senators to jump up and start signing new gun laws and other laws into the books. Why wasn’t it left up to the “parents” to curb gun violence in Littleton, Colorado? I think you are seriously in denial REDD. FOR REAL! You fail to see the relationship between poverty, race and class. You need to read beyond the lines.

Listen, inner city poverty , like other types of poverty, could be reduced by national demand-side policies that stimulate gains in economic productivity and sustained economic growth. During the first two decades after World War II, poverty rates in the United States were cut nearly in half because of high rates of employment and economic growth. In the decade after 1973, however, slow economic growth increased unemployment and reduced gains in family income. The poverty rate, which is very sensitive to the unemployment rate, also increased during that period and is still relatively high.



You overlook these funadmental facts and point your fingers at white people and white government....and that is wrong. You can eliminate racism, elect a black president, and just increase spending on the central city--but nothing will eliminate this problem except for the people themselves? What do we need to do--pay these inner city people a check just for being poor and black,give them a free house, free car, free education (which in Milwaukee, poor people are allowed a free ride to private schools--which other blacks and whites with slightly higher incomes are working hard to send their kids.)---will that eliminate the problem? How will any of this solve the problem? Im sorry but that kind of thinking just makes the black person a slave again--a slave of the government. It makes the younger generation of poor black people think that they can only be successful when the white man signs the piece of paper---rather than through hard work, sacrifice, and frugalism? Ask any successful black man and he will probally tell you that he got to where he is today from his hard work. This type of thinking is very demeaning to the successful black man.


Frugalism isn’t a word first of all Lol ....ask any black man? Okkkk I am a black man….that’s all I need to say about that stupid little rant of yours.

The rest of it was just nonsense. And please stop with this “white man” handing out rhetoric, that’s not true. Black people do not get hand outs from the “white man.” You really are starting to sound like a bumbling bigot. If you think poor black people survive by getting a hand out from "the white man," I'm sorry you need to snap back to reality. I know many of poor black mothers who go to work everyday for 8 to ten hours a day, and still barely make enough to get by. And thats some of the HARDEST work you can do! You can work your fingers to the bone for all of your life and still die poor and broke.....in the "richest nation in the world." I don't care you are black, white, redd ;), or green.

current antipoverty programs and policies meet with special problems in the inner city. These programs may not be designed to deal with such a high concentration of poverty, and poor people living in ghettos may have less access to them than they would have if they lived in non poor neighborhoods. discriminatory barriers preventing mobility to better neighborhoods should be deliberately undermined by federal policies and programs, for example, through full enforcement of fair housing, equal access, and other nondiscrimination laws and regulations, enabling people to leave ghettos if they choose through programs such as housing vouchers and fair-share housing construction throughout metropolitan areas. but yeah, i guess those would be "hand outs" from the "white man" too huh? oh well, we just can't please redd... :sleepy:



Im sorry if you think I am wrong or misguided...a white fool has no idea what he is talking about. I am not getting payed to say this--I am doing this in my own free time----trying to understand why the inner city is why it is. Milwaukee has one of the hardest hit inner cities and I live quite close to it--so my trying to understand it is not wrong. I have said nothing racist one bit--rather my message is empowering the black man, saying that he can carve his own future, solve his own problems. You have this misguided view that all white people have the same views of black people as those during the Reconstruction or the 60's. Who was it that busted open their checkbooks to aid the black people in New Orleans anyway? Poor African Americans? Perhaps some, but a good number of that money came from the bank accounts of white people--the same white people that embraced these black Katrina-refugees who came to their cities after the Hurricane. And who was killing, stealing, and raping each other in the Superdome?

You are wrong, and very misguided. Hahaha you are a trip dude. Seriously….You want to bring up Katrina, well I guess that brings us back to square one…..where was the federal government redd? Oh that’s right…..“Brownie you’re doing a hell of a job!” Its also odd that the President didn't once mention hurricaine katrina in the state of the union address either...lol

again, you have a very simplistic way of thinking redd. additional research on the causes and effects of inner city poverty is essential to increasing the government's ability to design and administer policies and programs that are more effective with respect to poverty and its consequences.

...................You can’t just say “its up to the parents.”

yes, frugalism is a word.

And second of all....what does poverty and your argument have to do with black people murdering each other every day? Explain the correlation between a black man with a gun and a temper and white government?

Tell me how there is supposed to be "equal distribution" of wealth--when you dont graduate high school and dont go to college? Im sorry but this isnt 1954, its 2006 and its tough finding good work with no skills. There arent the major factories here anymore. Go move to a communist nation if you want the government to find work for everyone, even those who dont want to work or are not qualified to get certain jobs. Dispute my 59 percent of Milwaukee black males of 16 and older are idle when it comes to looking for employment. Oh, it must be because the government that makes these people not want to look for work right?! Why dont you defend these people? Its always the government when it comes to black people bitching about why their is poverty within their community! How about we switch to socialism or communism just to cater to these people---even while the poor Hispanic and Asian immigrants are finding any shit starter jobs they can and creating a successful future for themselves? You are blinded Soul and will not look at things from someone elses viewpoint. Its views like yours that will keep the black community from progressing in America. A progressing group of people would try everything to cut off the ills that are holding it back---not so for the inner city it seems, where the police are the enemy, not the criminal.

You are wrong, and very misguided. Hahaha you are a trip dude. Seriously….You want to bring up Katrina, well I guess that brings us back to square one…..where was the federal government redd? Oh that’s right…..“Brownie you’re doing a hell of a job!” Its also odd that the President didn't once mention hurricaine katrina in the state of the union address either...lol

again, you have a very simplistic way of thinking redd. additional research on the causes and effects of inner city poverty is essential to increasing the government's ability to design and administer policies and programs that are more effective with respect to poverty and its consequences.

...................You can’t just say “its up to the parents.”

expalin why the Superdome was a mess? Explain why New Orleans residents were looting--stealing t.v.'s and gold watches? Yes, I said many times the US. government dropped the ball on the Gulf Coast (where alot of white people were also affect, but you only think about the black people)...but does that mean that there should be people shooting at volunteers, nurses, and police? Why is there such violence in this ghetto community---explain this to me? Again, pointing the finger at something else...rather than the true reason for the problem.

yes, frugalism is a word.

And second of all....what does poverty and your argument have to do with black people murdering each other every day? Explain the correlation between a black man with a gun and a temper and white government?
.
Frugal is a word, frugalism is not lol

Well for one you can’t name me one country, or community during any era that had high poverty and no violence. If you look back to the 1800’s when the Irish first came to America dirt poor, you will see that that was a very violent time. And as a matter of fact many of the same things that take place in the inner city today took place then. Like gun violence, prostitution, and gangs. You know “Gangs of New York” was based on a true story don’t you? What three things in that movie ring true in the inner city today? You don’t know? Well I’ll tell you….poverty, violence and hopelessness. But now you add cocaine, alcohol and other drugs into the mix and things get even worse. And drugs didn’t just pop up out of nowhere you know…yes it may sound crazy but cocaine was dumped into the inner city by the CIA. ( http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu/1996/100396/cia10396.html) its not like this stuff just came out of nowhere. Believe it or not, if it weren’t for the crack epidemic I believe the current state of inner city communities would be 100 times better.


Tell me how there is supposed to be "equal distribution" of wealth--when you dont graduate high school and dont go to college? Im sorry but this isnt 1954, its 2006 and its tough finding good work with no skills. There arent the major factories here anymore. Go move to a communist nation if you want the government to find work for everyone, even those who dont want to work or are not qualified to get certain jobs. Dispute my 59 percent of Milwaukee black males of 16 and older are idle when it comes to looking for employment. Oh, it must be because the government that makes these people not want to look for work right?! Why dont you defend these people? Its always the government when it comes to black people bitching about why their is poverty within their community! How about we switch to socialism or communism just to cater to these people---even while the poor Hispanic and Asian immigrants are finding any shit starter jobs they can and creating a successful future for themselves? You are blinded Soul and will not look at things from someone elses viewpoint. Its views like yours that will keep the black community from progressing in America. A progressing group of people would try everything to cut off the ills that are holding it back---not so for the inner city it seems, where the police are the enemy, not the criminal.

Well for one the job market has always come up short in terms of employment for minorities that’s a FACT that hasn’t changed since the 60’s. Whether or not they had high school diplomas or a college education is irrelevant. Historically people of color have always been on the lower end in terms of gaining wealth and finding employment in America, Whites have always been on top. That has never changed. Sure education helps, but some studies have shown that people of color, of all educational levels still have a hard time finding work.

But that doesn’t mean some good things have happened. The black middle class has grown substantially. In 2000, some 47 percent of African Americans owned their homes. However, African Americans are still underrepresented in government and employment. In 1999, median income of African American household was $27,910 compared to $44,366 of non-Hispanic whites. Approximately one-fourth of the African American population lives in poverty, a rate three times that of white Americans. In 2000, 19.1 percent of black population lived below poverty level as compared to 6.9 percent of white population. The unemployment gap between blacks and whites has grown. In 2000, the unemployment rate among African Americans was almost twice the rate for whites. The income gap between black and white families also continues to widen. Employed blacks earn only 77 percent of the wages of whites in comparable jobs, down from 82 percent in 1975. In 2000, Only 16.6 percent of 25 years and older blacks earned bachelor’s or higher degrees in contrast to 28.1 percent of whites. Although rates of births to unwed mothers among both blacks and whites have risen since the 1950s, the rate of such births among African Americans is three times the rate of whites.


As far as your “bitching” argument is concerned lol …well, since this is a democracy, and the democracy is supposed to take a care of its citizens, of course people are going to demand that the government does a better job getting those on the lower end of the economic totem poll better opportunities and chances to succeeded. I don’t think Black people “bitch” sorry…the only “bitching” I see right now is coming from you J

The sentence about Hispanics and Asian immigrants didn’t make any sense redd sorry.

I don’t think I’m blinded, I think my eyes are wide open thank you J

Well I think views like min have been present in the black community for sometime now, and until things change these views probably won’t either. I defiantly don’t think my views, or views like mine will hinder the black community in anyway shape form or fashion.

expalin why the Superdome was a mess? Explain why New Orleans residents were looting--stealing t.v.'s and gold watches? Yes, I said many times the US. government dropped the ball on the Gulf Coast (where alot of white people were also affect, but you only think about the black people)...but does that mean that there should be people shooting at volunteers, nurses, and police? Why is there such violence in this ghetto community---explain this to me? Again, pointing the finger at something else...rather than the true reason for the problem.

Well redd....the Census Bureau released a report that found that the number of poor Americans has leaped even higher since Bush took office in 2000. While criminal gangs who always take advantage of chaos and misery to snatch and grab whatever they can, did much of the looting, many desperately poor, mostly black residents, saw a chance to grab items that they can't afford. They also did their share of the looting. That makes it no less reprehensible, but it's no surprise.

And it doesn't help that New Orleans has one of the highest poverty rates of any of America's big cities. Many of the poor in New Orleans lived in some of the most dilapidated, and deteriorated housing in the nation.

Ok a lot of bad things happend in the superdome, does the actions of a few, define the actions of the whole? I THINK NOT. The biggest crime in the first place was the fact that the federal and state government didn't try harder to get those folks out of new orleans, instead of throwing them all in the superdome and the new orleans convention center where they were packed in like a can of sardines.

Ok, people shooting at volunteer nurses, and police? I think you need to read When Will Mainstream Media Apologize for Katrina Goofs? (http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/marktapscott/2005/10/15/171465.html)

Remember those horrifying stories of rampaging gangs of murderous rapists in the New Orleans Convention Center and Superdome? Not true. Remember the stacks of bodies of people killed in those locations during five days of hell before help arrived? Not true. Remember the dead seven-year-old girl with the slashed throated and raped soul lying in the freezer? Not true. Perhaps the height of sensationalist mainstream media myth-making was FOX News’ Geraldo Rivera intoning that "yesterday the sun set on a scene of terror, chaos, confusion, anarchy, violence, rapes, murders, dead babies, dead people."

I think you watch too much fox news Redd.

Why is there so much violence in the inner city? Why do you keep asking the same question over and over redd?

I have one for you....why is America such a violence country PERIOD?

i never thought i'd hear myself say this but this thread needs to be closed. :lock:

But now you add cocaine, alcohol and other drugs into the mix and things get even worse. And drugs didn’t just pop up out of nowhere you know…yes it may sound crazy but cocaine was dumped into the inner city by the CIA. ( http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu/1996/100396/cia10396.html) its not like this stuff just came out of nowhere.

It doesn't matter who is selling it, nobody needs to be buying it.

i never thought i'd hear myself say this but this thread needs to be closed. :lock:

perhaps you are right...we are just going to argue this forever and I have jackasses in the Skybar to attack lol.

However, hudkina is right....nobody needs to buy these drugs or kill people...regardless of history. The person lighting the crackpipe is responsibile for what misfortunes they will be unleashing upon themselves and their families. We all have consciences and pretty much everyone these days knows about the harm caused by not only drugs, but cigarettes and alcahol. Not only will keeping away from these drugs allow the individual to remain a productive and normal part of society/family--but it will save him alot of money! Crack, weed, booze...its all pricey and should not be used by people who dont have the financial means to back up that habit.

Shame on me to think that all people have power over their own lives! If that is not the case, then we live in a pretty fucked up world. And I agree about America being a violent nation...white, black, and Latino. We like guns, we like explosions, fighting, and things of that nature. However, you and me both know that its taken to an exteme in the inner cities---there simply isnt people in suburbia pulling a handgun out and blowing someone away for minor insults. I dont know how you solve that...but surely the rap music/"ghetto culture" doesnt help that situation.

Oh and by the way.....I will challenge you that frugalism is a word. Bust out the dictionary or look it up in Google--I take ballsy-moves when it comes to words, ie. Scrabble.

However, you and me both know that its taken to an exteme in the inner cities---there simply isnt people in suburbia pulling a handgun out and blowing someone away for minor insults. .


no, getting bullied at school is a far better reason....

Oh and by the way.....I will challenge you that frugalism is a word. Bust out the dictionary or look it up in Google--I take ballsy-moves when it comes to words, ie. Scrabble.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=frugalism+definition

Soulbrotha white on white murders in suburban America are extremely rare, especially when you compare them to black on black murders in inner-city Amerca. That's not to say they do not occur, they just tend to get much more publicity in the national media when they do. For instance, the local media has been hyping a double-murder in suburban New Baltimore, MI because #1 the city has only seen three murders in the last 25 or so years, and #2 both the victims and the murderers where white. (Though, while I'm not sure about the race of the third victim [murdered in the Flint area], it's possible he could have been black.)

I think these quotes are good for this discussion ... although they are not directed towards anyone.

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame."
Author: Erica Jong

"A man may fail many times but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else."
Author: J. Paul Getty

"Man blames fate for other accidents but feels personally responsible for a hole-in-one."
Author: Martha Beckman

Soulbrotha white on white murders in suburban America are extremely rare, especially when you compare them to black on black murders in inner-city Amerca. That's not to say they do not occur, they just tend to get much more publicity in the national media when they do. For instance, the local media has been hyping a double-murder in suburban New Baltimore, MI because #1 the city has only seen three murders in the last 25 or so years, and #2 both the victims and the murderers where white. (Though, while I'm not sure about the race of the third victim [murdered in the Flint area], it's possible he could have been black.)

but here is what redd said "there simply isnt people in suburbia pulling a handgun out and blowing someone away for minor insults"

thats not true, people get shot and killed in "suburbia" every single day. He seems to think it only happends in the innner city....sorry thats not true.

I think these quotes are good for this discussion ... although they are not directed towards anyone.

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame."
Author: Erica Jong

"A man may fail many times but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else."
Author: J. Paul Getty

"Man blames fate for other accidents but feels personally responsible for a hole-in-one."
Author: Martha Beckman

They are good quotes. And, they speak to one half of a solution for humanity, more importantly.

Suburban Detroit has an average of less than 2 murders per 100,000 residents. Detroit has about 42 murders per 100,000 residents. Even more, the majority of murders in suburban Detroit happen to be in Detroit's majority-black suburbs (Highland Park, Inkster, Southfield, etc.) And even places like Warren, Hamtramck, and Dearborn where whites are still the majority happen to have a lot of murders commited by people from Detroit. Again, that's not to say that white on white murders don't occur, but the overwhelming majority of murders are black on black. And I'm not trying to look any further into that from a racial standpoint. I know a lot of that has to with social and economic conditions, but those are the statistics.

well redd's way of simply saying there isn't anybody killing anybody in the suburbs is just flat out wrong...people do get killled in the suburbs whether it be domestic, or random...it happends.

Good quotes, Life...how true they are. And what hudkina says is true.

These murders in the suburbs are overhyped because they are in white, middle-upper class areas. It doesnt happen very often....therefore it is a shock. However, the Columbine murders dont add up to a week in some Detroit, Chicago, and L.A. hoods.....perhaps even some projects. This is the sad part-that the shock value of 500-600 murders in Chicago, NYC, and L.A. yearly and 200-300 + in New Orleans, Detroit, Baltimore, and Philly. Same goes for Milwaukee's 122 murders....most of them in the black inner city, and almost every other city in the U.S. Why is there such violence and anger in these certain areas of cities?

Remember in Friday...when Ice Cube was going to pull a gun on Deebo, but his dad told him to use his fists? Its suprising that I would use this cult comdey to argue serious points--but it does have some truth within it. That lovable fool John Witherspoon said this about that situation in the last scenes of the movie,

"
This was all the protection
we needed.
You win some, you lose some.
But you live...
You live to fight another day.
You think you're a man
with that gun
in your hand, don't you?

Instead of venting their anger using a gun, they should instead use peaceful means to solve their problems---or at least use non-lethal force. You dont see that in the suburbs at all--as a matter of fact many white Wisconsin suburbanities are hunters and have a shotgun or rifle handy. People argue there all the time, yet you never hear about some angry guy using it to solve a problem that could more easily be resolved with words and conversation! For christsake, black people in the inner city have lost their lives for such pointless shit--chicken dinners, clothes, billiards, dice games, a few dollars, shoes, a small amount of drugs, jewelry, and not being invited to parties! Tell me I dont know what I am talking.....I can see this crap on the news every other night.

This kind of stuff has a more immediate effect on poverty than racism. I have said this over and over again--but how many young fathers and sole-income providers are killed every day in our ghettos or thrown in prison?

[QUOTE=ReddAlert]
And if all you say is true, why can Mexican immigrants come into the U.S.--not knowing much English, are much poorer, and have a bigger family--able to succeed so quickly?

have you ever been to the hoods of California, Texas, South Florida, and New York and seen the gangs and crime in these poor Hispanic communities, have you ever heard of MS-13 thats the biggest street gang in the United States off and are known for their signature decapitations, so dont try to make this a race issue because its not its a poverty issue, and its extremely difficult to break a cycle of crime breeded by depression and poverty.

[QUOTE=ReddAlert]
And if all you say is true, why can Mexican immigrants come into the U.S.--not knowing much English, are much poorer, and have a bigger family--able to succeed so quickly?

have you ever been to the hoods of California, Texas, South Florida, and New York and seen the gangs and crime in these poor Hispanic communities, have you ever heard of MS-13 thats the biggest street gang in the United States off and are known for their signature decapitations, so dont try to make this a race issue because its not its a poverty issue, and its extremely difficult to break a cycle of crime breeded by depression and poverty.

no, I have not...but blacks still are more likely to kill and be killed than whites/Latinos. California, Texas, and Flordia have majority or near Latino populations-so this would be expected. MS-13 is a worldwide gang, not just an American one--and its a way of life. Many live in fear of MS-13 and nobody can quit it once a member--well, except through death.

And no, crime can be stopped....that is if the community and families take an active interest in it.

[QUOTE=Goatman]

no, I have not...but blacks still are more likely to kill and be killed than whites/Latinos. California, Texas, and Flordia have majority or near Latino populations-so this would be expected. MS-13 is a worldwide gang, not just an American one--and its a way of life. Many live in fear of MS-13 and nobody can quit it once a member--well, except through death.

And no, crime can be stopped....that is if the community and families take an active interest in it.


blacks are no more likley to kill than anyone from any other group of people dude. please stop now. :sleepy:

[QUOTE=ReddAlert]


blacks are no more likley to kill than anyone from any other group of people dude. please stop now. :sleepy:

do you need me to provide links? I am just mearly putting the facts on the table--I have no bias here.

all human beings have the capacity and ability to kill man.

True, but like I said blacks do commit the overwhelming majority of murders in a country where they account for less than 12% of the total population.

But from Redd's point of view, i guess all white female teachers are more likely to have sex with their underage students?.......NO, the statistics say more white female teachers have sex with their underage students, but thats only a very small percent of the population. Just like people who commit murder are only a VERY small percent of the population...regardless of race. So its pretty stupid to judge a whole group of people based on the actions of a few.

[QUOTE=Goatman]

no, I have not...but blacks still are more likely to kill and be killed than whites/Latinos. California, Texas, and Flordia have majority or near Latino populations-so this would be expected. MS-13 is a worldwide gang, not just an American one--and its a way of life. Many live in fear of MS-13 and nobody can quit it once a member--well, except through death.

And no, crime can be stopped....that is if the community and families take an active interest in it.

show me the proof that black people in the same economical situation are more likely to kill than latinos, I'm 100 % sure they are similar numbers. as far as you saying that MS-13 is a way of life and blacks are killing just because go to LA, and tell the Crips and Bloods that what they are doing is not a way of life and see what happens to you, because being in a gang in the first place is a way of life, and most join gangs because of enviromental and econimical pressures. And why are you clumping white and latinos in the same group as if they have the same demographics.

Redd's a Milwaukee guy like me, but I think he's looking at race relations in America at large from a too narrow Milwaukee-centric point of view. Here in Milwaukee we're a minority-majority city where African Americans and Latinos are the only major "minority" groups. We had 122 murders in Milwaukee in 2005. All but 10 were committed on the predominantly Black North Side, most of the other 10 were committed in the predominantly Latino South Side. The Latino community is poor, although there is a growing Latino middle class in the city. So ... why did the South Side have 1/10 as many murders as the North Side?

Redd answers this question with the idea that there is some instrinsic trait among African Americans that makes them violent towards each other, more so than other groups. This is a patently racist idea, and it's no wonder he's getting pounced on here for voicing it. If he would look back beyond 2005, into years past, he would see that the Latino South Side has been home to ruthless, violent Latino gangs such as the Vice Lords and Latin Kings. These gangs are tightly organized with a strict hierarchy. They exist in Mexico and the United States. In the 1990s they virtually ran the South Side. During those years gangland murders on the South Side numbered far more than 10 per year.

The FBI in the early 2000s broke these gangs up using Federal anti-racketeering laws. Gang members were convicted en masse for criminal conspiracy, tax evasion, and numerous murder counts. The top gang members were all imprisoned. The gang culture on the South Side, which was run off a strict hierarchy and was tightly organized, suddenly unravelled in one fell swoop. Luckily, the MS13 phenomenon has not yet hit Milwaukee.

The difference on the North Side is that the African American gangs are far less organized and less hierarchical. Therefore they are far more difficult to break up. North Side gangs are often loose bands of drug selling entrepreneurs, who function independently. In such an environment shootings and other disagreements are going to be more common, because there is less "discipline" enforced through a gang hierarchy.

One reason the Latino gangs are more organized has to do with the international nature of Latino gangs in the US. Many US Latino gangs are essentially US "offices" of huge gangs based in Mexico and Central America. In Latin America, criminal gangs can grow to be enormously powerful, given the rampant corruption and overall lack of functioning courts in Latin countries. Powerful gangs need to be better organized to hang onto and grow their power. This organization typifies the US "branches" of the Latin gangs.

But from Redd's point of view, i guess all white female teachers are more likely to have sex with their underage students?.......NO, the statistics say more white female teachers have sex with their underage students, but thats only a very small percent of the population. Just like people who commit murder are only a VERY small percent of the population...regardless of race. So its pretty stupid to judge a whole group of people based on the actions of a few.

Ding, ding, ding! Very good observation. It's called overhyping. For as violent as America is, homocides are a very small and relatively rare crime when you take into account of much larger picture of crime. It may be statistically true that black American's commit and unproportionate amount of homocides, but that is still a very small segment of black America. The danger comes in taking statistics at face value, because they already fit into your own narrow and preconcieved view of the people. Black America is working against a mountain trying to change their perception in the media and in the minds of society. When all you hear about in terms of crime on the news is about black America killing, stealing, and dealing one shouldn't be surprised at why many would view black America this way.

There are some very real problems in the black community, and many that need to be (and many that are) solved. But, I find TOO many people; a disturbing amount of people, that are content with taking statistics at face value to justify their either concious or unconcious very narrow view of the world.

The news rarely reports on the charity of black community, mostly through the church, but nearly just as often through social programs and activism, which don't pay well, let me tell you. I could give just as many good examples of good working being done as you all could give bad examples. It's unfortunate that some are content with latching onto the bad, and helping perpetuate an only half-deserved negative perception. Reading Redd's post, I'd swear that there is very little that redeems black America. That is an ignorant view, and maybe because of his location. The forcast for black America is not as gloomy as he paints, and I'm getting just a little annoyed of having to get him to view the bigger picture.

Mayhaps he needs to go to Detroit, or Atlanta, or Los Angeles...to see some very successful black communities. I can't imagine Milwaukee not having a visible, positive, and vocal black community within the context of the larger black community, there. But, to tell you the truth, all I ever hear out of Milwaukee's and the national media is the roving gangs within the black community dragging people out of cars and beating the crap out of them. There has to be more to the community than that.

Lastly, I'm a bit annoyed as well with some saying they are "tired" and annoyed of black America. That is incredibly condescending and hypocritical.

Redd answers this question with the idea that there is some instrinsic trait among African Americans that makes them violent towards each other, more so than other groups.

I think what Redd is saying is that you can't put all of the blame on white people. If you cut through all of the crap in here and read in between the lines, there are many people that are saying more or less that the white man is 100% at fault for the problems in the black community and that the black community doesn't need to change anything, it's government's responsibility to fix all of the problems.

That pretty much sums up this whole thread.

^I think you are completely reading into things more than some other's are. No one is even implying that white Americans are a 100% at fault (of even mostly) for the problems of the black community. We are asking you to level with us at the 50/50, and you can't even seem to do that. 50% personal resposibility/50% greater society. That's all I'm asking, but no one seems to want to level, here on that.

If anything, it seems to be that the other side is pushing too hard here. It seems that many in the white community (more so than in the black community) absolutely bristle at the idea of social responsibility when you even suggest it. The majority of the black community isn't even asking for greater society to be 100% responsible, they are asking to be met half way, and they can't even seem to do that.

^I think you are completely reading into things more than some other's are. No one is even implying that white Americans are a 100% at fault (of even mostly) for the problems of the black community. We are asking you to level with us at the 50/50, and you can't even seem to do that. 50% personal resposibility/50% greater society. That's all I'm asking, but no one seems to want to level, here on that.

If anything, it seems to be that the other side is pushing too hard here. It seems that many in the white community (more so than in the black community) absolutely bristle at the idea of social responsibility when you even suggest it. The majority of the black community isn't even asking for greater society to be 100% responsible, they are asking to be met half way, and they can't even seem to do that.

I don't think I'm reading too much into anything at all. I understand that society plays a role, I'm not denying that. I think on this website, and in certain circles in society, the white man is always the bad guy. On top of that, it doesn't matter what race you are, making fun of white people is fair game and is done often. On this website, the whiter a city is, the less points it gets in some people's minds. See where I'm coming from?

Even 50/50 is putting too much blame on the dominant society. If it were 50/50, hispanics, asians, arabs, and other minority groups would be in the same boat as blacks. Sure 40 years ago it was probably 50/50 and prior to that whites held the majority of the blame, but there is no way that today whites should take half the blame for the social ills of a particular cross-section of black america. Especially when we have government programs that are designed to help inner-city residents get out of poverty. There are checks and balances that do help to offset the institutional racism that is apparent in our society.

Redd's a Milwaukee guy like me, but I think he's looking at race relations in America at large from a too narrow Milwaukee-centric point of view. Here in Milwaukee we're a minority-majority city where African Americans and Latinos are the only major "minority" groups. We had 122 murders in Milwaukee in 2005. All but 10 were committed on the predominantly Black North Side, most of the other 10 were committed in the predominantly Latino South Side. The Latino community is poor, although there is a growing Latino middle class in the city. So ... why did the South Side have 1/10 as many murders as the North Side?

Redd answers this question with the idea that there is some instrinsic trait among African Americans that makes them violent towards each other, more so than other groups. This is a patently racist idea, and it's no wonder he's getting pounced on here for voicing it. If he would look back beyond 2005, into years past, he would see that the Latino South Side has been home to ruthless, violent Latino gangs such as the Vice Lords and Latin Kings. These gangs are tightly organized with a strict hierarchy. They exist in Mexico and the United States. In the 1990s they virtually ran the South Side. During those years gangland murders on the South Side numbered far more than 10 per year.
.

I agree that Mexican gangs are more violent and dangerous--gangs such as the Spanish Cobras, Vice Lords, Kings, and MS13--which is one of the top priorities of the FBI. However, you never had the kinds of violence from the Southside, as you do in the black Northside. And its more worrying that normal people, not violent gangs, are the the ones most likely to kill in Milwaukee and in other cities. People in our cities arent being gunned down because of a bad drug deal or wearing red instead of blue...they are being gunned down for trivial bullshit! This is worrying, because you see much more of this in the inner city. In white suburbs...when there is a murder, there usually is a motive.

Sure, L.A., Chicago, Miami and NYC have huge Mexican and other Latino populations, but I assume that more murders occur in the black community.
And what about Baltimore, Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Philly, K.C., Indy, Oakland, Columbus, Richmond, Atlanta, Memphis, Gary, New Orleans, Louisville, Cincinatti, Washington D.C, Boston, Buffalo,Birmingham, Houston, Dallas, Minneapolis/St. Paul and Nashville? These cities have pretty sizeable black communities and I dont have all the murder/race figures--but one cannot doubt the fact that almost all these cities have outrageous black homcides--especially in Detroit, Baltimore, New Orleans, and Philly!

I am not trying to sound racist or anything, but there is a certain violence and rage that seems to only be found in the black inner cities. Why? I know you know alot of decent, inner city blacks unseen and I do too....but we both cannot argue the facts. You can only blame poverty, racism, and segregation too much before it starts becoming a ridicolous argument. Im sorry, I know this will get a couple of you mad--but there really is "whose the bigger man" mentality in the ghetto.

True, but like I said blacks do commit the overwhelming majority of murders in a country where they account for less than 12% of the total population.

thank you hudkina! This is the key fact here and one that Soulbrotha is blinded to. And its not just the U.S--but like us, the rate of homcidies by blacks in the U.K. is 6-8 times that of white groups. And this in the U.K.--that true "land of the free", where all people get to suck on the teat of the government!

And if you want to blame racism for murders--why then is the black murder rate much higher than it was following the Civil War and during most of the 1900s? Did you know that immigrant Italian and Irish murder rates were much higher than that of blacks in the post Civil War U.S.? Why then, in todays world where we have a great amount of programs targeting the inner city black community and a huge pot of money available for these same black folks to attend colleges and universities for free---is the situation worse in black inner city America that it was in hectic and racist 1900's America? And why is it that there is much more gun ownership in suburban/rural white and black communities---but gun deaths are 9.3 times higher among young, black urban males?

I don't think I'm reading too much into anything at all. I understand that society plays a role, I'm not denying that. I think on this website, and in certain circles in society, the white man is always the bad guy. On top of that, it doesn't matter what race you are, making fun of white people is fair game and is done often. On this website, the whiter a city is, the less points it gets in some people's minds. See where I'm coming from?

I do see where your coming from--which what I was arguing before this turned into a duel between me and Soulbrotha.

Making fun of white people, our culture, our lifestyles, and our histoy is not a problem. White racism occurs all the time and just to add furhter fuel to my previous argument---studies show that young, urban whites are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than blacks or Latinos--and the crimes are most likely commited by African Americans. Attacks on white people goes on all the time on here and on the national stage. Call a Southerner a redneck, hick, white trash, yokel, or assume he is in some white supremist KKK group--and its cool. Draw a picture of Muhammed, use a weak and minor racial term, refer to black people as "you people", dont have alot diversity in your college, not want to drive through the worst ghettos, make stereotypes, and even use a common and universal insult---and you and me will most likely be torched.

And I agree that white cities are shitted upon. Even your Minneapolis is mocked on here and on t.v., stereotyped for being a cold white city---yet it has some considerable diversity and remains on the better cities for liveability/education in the U.S.

ReddAlert...explain how a minority can be racist to the majority? Are you telling me that white trash actually take it SERIOUSLY when a black man calls them a hick?

No, they don't. They consider it laughable and poke jokes about how they used to own black people. You can't be racist to the majority.

Ding, ding, ding! Very good observation. It's called overhyping.

Yeah, it was pretty good. Though I think I'd use the term stereotyping rather than overhyping.

ReddAlert...explain how a minority can be racist to the majority? Are you telling me that white trash actually take it SERIOUSLY when a black man calls them a hick?

No, they don't. They consider it laughable and poke jokes about how they used to own black people. You can't be racist to the majority.

Anybody can be a racist! A black man could hate me just for being white. Ever hear of the Black Panthers? Ever hear of the murders of various whites at the hands of blacks, just because they are white? Probally not, because all you will hear about is how those L.A.P.D. cops beat the shit out Rodney King, Kunta Kinte, and the guy dragged to death. I am not doubting the evilness in the hearts of many whites--however you have to realize it goes both ways. Humans are evil people and its not only the white man who is acting this way.

I would take it seriously if I was living in Nashville or Charlotte and was called a hick or trash...just because I was a Southerner. Many of these "rednecks" in fact have whiter necks than I do---not all of them are barefoot Jimmy Carter lookalikes, not all of them race cars, are in the KKK, are the decentdants of bootleggers, or live in a trailer park. What would happen if you called some guys down in Pine Bluff, black trash? Trash is not a nice word to call anybody.

Oh, boo hoo, us poor opressed white people! How do we manage to survive?

On the one hand you claim that black people "play the victim." Now you're saying white Americans are the victims.

Maybe what's really going on here is that YOU want to be able to claim that you're a victim. Sorry, you can't trash people for "playing the victim" and then go on playing the victim yourself.

Oh, boo hoo, us poor opressed white people! How do we manage to survive?

On the one hand you claim that black people "play the victim." Now you're saying white Americans are the victims.

Maybe what's really going on here is that YOU want to be able to claim that you're a victim. Sorry, you can't trash people for "playing the victim" and then go on playing the victim yourself.

Im not, I am just saying that there is racism against whites--that society ignores. The notion that racism against blacks or Hispanics is taboo--shows that American people and society are not racist towards them.

Anybody can be a racist! A black man could hate me just for being white.

Sure, an individual black man might hate you solely because you're white. I have encountered individual black people (very few) who will simply not be friendly with me because I'm white. But I drive like a maniac through the streets of the city and I've never been pulled over by the Milwaukee PD. I dabbled in pot in high school and was never arrested or even searched by the cops. Every encounter I've had with police has been very pleasant and even cordial. I went to UW Madison and never had anyone assume I was stupid before I even opened my mouth. My wife and I are house hunting and
I'm amazed at how much the bank is willing to lend to us for a mortgage. Every time I walk into a store the staff is attentive and courteous to me. I've gone on long road trips and have never hesitated to pull off the highway, no matter which region of the country I'm in.

In short, I play the race card every single day of my life. I play it without even trying, and most of the time I'm not even aware of it. If you cannot see that there are real, tangible privledges that go along with being white in America, then you are blind to reality. True, every once in a while when I'm the only white person on a bus or in a store I'll get a dirty look. And I hear people make fun of "whiteness" all the time. And yes, I have been turned down for jobs partly because I'm white. But overall I can't complain, because so far there haven't been many serious obstacles to success in my life.

You're a good guy Redd, I've enjoyed your observations on Milwaukee developments and on other cities. But you're not winning many converts on this topic.

You're a good guy Redd, I've enjoyed your observations on Milwaukee developments and on other cities. But you're not winning many converts on this topic.

thanks! :)

I dont expect to get any freinds my speaking this either. However, I think we as Americans need to cut through the bullshit. Sure, some racism occurs in certain areas--and I am against this. However, I do see alot of black policemen in this city.

Whites do get away with alot--but saying that is the gospel truth is unfair. Those black guys who slashed those tires got away with a slap on the wrist--when they could be upstate for a couple years. And I am sure there are many incidents where black men were given a warning by a white cop--that are unpublicized.

However, I dont see why racism should have to be brought up when we are discussing why, oh why, there are so many murders in the black inner cities! Its not a popular question, but its one that needs to be answered. If America continues to be blind and oblivious to these problems for the sake of political correctness--than we will never advance as a society. Like I said earlier, you can blame history and current racism only so far until it gets to be a bit of a ridicolous and futile argument. People need to take responsibility for their actions--white, black, or blue. George Bush is not pulling the trigger, lighting the crackpipe, or impregnating these women....the young black man is and its ruining his life, along with those who love him.

Milwaukee hits upon something very telling called Majority or White Privilege. It is the special treatment that every person born into the majority gets. This is exactly why I get annoyed when I hear white American's crying about miniorities getting "special treatment." You get it every day of your life, and the privileges afforded to minorities by society don't even begin to stack up to equal majority privilege. This also hits upon something just brought up concerning the difference between a majority and a minority racists. Minority racism may be just as ugly in spirit as the racism shown by the majority, but the difference is that minority racism has no real social or economic power. By that I mean that the majority can simply brush it off and return to their society economically unscathed. Racism by the majority, on the other hand, has the real ability and chance to be used to institutionally lock minorities out of constitution-afforded opportunities. I guess it breaks down that one can be taken as being offensive, but the other can be used in very real ways to hurt a particular group of people. It's like one person fighting someone with a wooden spoon, and the other with a gun. It's pretty obvious which one is more hurtful.

^I think thats a bit unfair. The way you are describing it....I am the son of some South Carolina planter and you are my slave boy. That kind of racism does not exsist anymore. As I have stated, there are numerous programs targeting the inner city black population--much of it ignored or not used by those living there. I dont know what more we can do---besides give free money, build each poor person a McMansion, and give everybody their own job. If you want Communism---go to China, however I doubt you will find that a better place.

Why can so many blacks acheive success---rising from the ghettos into societies most prominent figures? If the odds were stacked against them, how did they beat them? And if they beat the odds, why cant anybody?

"I am the son of some South Carolina planter and you are my slave boy."

Where in the heck did that come from? You are just hitting gold, today. If you've talking about institutionalized racism that I mentioned, it has much more to do with home loans, biased and weighted laws, ridiculously exaggerated car insurance rates... There is very rarely blatant racism, though that doesn't make it any less dangerous. In fact, it makes it more dangerous.

As for your last questions, those are as complicated as the days are long. But to answer it simply, there are a lot of good breaks, and a lot of luck envolved. But one thing is key: working harder than any one should have to to secure high-ranking and paying careers.

I dont really want to carry on this damn thread...but this has to be said.

I think you are way off saying that most blacks have luck and good breaks involved with their success. It just sounds like a blow against the hardworking African Americans who got where they are now through hard work and perserverence. It cant just be luck, for there are many African Americans living the American Dream.

These people should be active in the inner cities, providing an example to the younger generation. Many of them are and are doing well. They need to show them how to perservere through these problems, not just show them the problems and how they are the victim. That negative kind of thinking has been pumped into the black community for over a hundred years and does nothing but hold them back....whether the compaints be true or false.

I guess you missed my very last sentence, but I don't care. I'm tired of arguing this, as well.

[QUOTE]

In Milwaukee? Blacks can live wherever they want...many choose to stay in Milwaukee rather than our white suburbs.

Milwaukee is very racist,keeping most of its black men unemployed/underemployed through rampant discrimination.Of coarse this is completely ignored by the insane,unbelievably evil white population,whom reddalert represents perfectly.



Yet another study finds that racial discrimination is alive and well in the hiring process, and it's keeping black men in metro Milwaukee on the unemployment rolls.

The study offers this fictional scenario:

A young, white, male high school graduate with a felony conviction applies in person for entry level jobs as a driver, a dishwasher, a laborer, warehouse worker and production worker that are advertised in the newspaper and admits to employers that he served 18 months in prison for possession of cocaine with intent to sell.

A young black man with similar education, work history and style of presentation, but with no criminal record, applies for the same jobs.

Who do you think is more likely to be called back?

If you picked the white man with the felony conviction, you guessed right.


"It's as if there's a concerted effort to keep black men from getting employment, to keep them oppressed," says Wells, former president of the League of Martin, an organization of black Milwaukee police officers.

"We say we want to reintegrate individuals into the community. We say that we want to do something about unemployment in the black community, yet we want to pretend that it's a criminal record that prevents blacks from getting jobs. It's blatant, undisputed, racism," he says.



http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=175535

that happens in all midwestern cities, you can't just target milwaukee. its unfair how people allow that to happen.


:old:

that happens in all midwestern cities, you can't just target milwaukee. its unfair how people allow that to happen.


:old:


You would never see an event like Beale street in downtown Memphis or the Circle City Classics in downtown Indianapolis Indiana where events drawing masses of blacks are welcomed.Take a trip to Milwaukees downtown area and just about the only blacks you will see are shoe shiners or bums on the street, with a few token black women holding downtown area jobs.

i dont understand, but at the same time im trying to get into marquette university with a really good GPA through high school,i helped out in the community at different events, i served the poor several times at the soup kitchens...and a black friend of mine whom has a lower grade point average was not involved in any extra curricular activities, never helped in the community gets in...when i worked so hard to get into a great school like marquette. what do you have to say about that example? it goes both ways, i have black friends...racism is never a problem...its some black leaders in the city who like to place racism as the issue when any thing comes up... the prime example being a white cop shooting a black person..when the black person really was doing something detremental to society..oh emmidiatly its racism! people bring up racism way to much in milwaukee, people are people why the hell does a history 100 years ago have to effect todays issues...get over it..the black people are accepted in society.

YEAH THATS WHY WERE HAVING AFRICAN WORLD FEST IN MILWAUKEE NEXT MONTH...yeah we have no celebrated black events... oh and not to mention the worlds only black haulicaust museum.

YEAH THATS WHY WERE HAVING AFRICAN WORLD FEST IN MILWAUKEE NEXT MONTH...yeah we have no celebrated black events... oh and not to mention the worlds only black haulicaust museum.

I mean in the interior downtown area, like Indianapolis and other cities host.Where masses of blacks fill the hotels and the streets are lined with black parardes.It just wont happen in downtown milwaukee and you know it.And very few whites attend that African world festival,milwaukee truely is one of if not the most racist cities in America.

get over it..the black people are accepted in society.


Blacks recieve second class treatment,and its obvious,especially in Milwaukee.

its some black leaders in the city who like to place racism as the issue when any thing comes up.


Non white ''leaders''(leaders arent appointed by you) in wisconsin cant fart without making the newspapers.Arthur Jones, Micheal Mcgee,and that one Mexican guy who won mayor of a Milwaukee suburb are all proof of this. So who really makes race an issue?

so take for example my white friend who is racist against blacks...he is german, english, and irish..... so does that say germany, england, and ireland are racist too? haha i just thought thats a funny point of view....its funny how society has clumped white people to white black people to black and so on. I would have to say milwaukee's main problem is the segregation. Not only do black get treated poorly in the white neighborhoods, but the whites get treated poorly in the black neighborhoods.

onto your point about the suburbs...the possible reason why there are no african-american leaders in the suburbs is because milwaukee's suburbs are mainly all white, so therefore theres a strong chance that in the election it would consist of primarily white candidates. So im basically looking at numbers here...not racism because no one wants to elect a black person!!

so take for example my white friend who is racist against blacks...he is german, english, and irish..... so does that say germany, england, and ireland are racist too? haha i just thought thats a funny point of view....its funny how society has clumped white people to white black people to black and so on. I would have to say milwaukee's main problem is the segregation. Not only do black get treated poorly in the white neighborhoods, but the whites get treated poorly in the black neighborhoods.



Whites have no reason to go to the jobless,impoversished black neighborhoods.Just about the only whites you will see in these poor neighborhoods are police.Please stop it with the ''both sides are wrong'' type of arguement.Clearly whites are the ones who created this situation through discrimination and just not treating blacks like fellow human should be treated.Its absolutely wrong,immoral and evil.

Relatively low unemployment rates for Wisconsin mask deep and persistent pockets of unemployment among African American men from low income families. In Milwaukee the percentage of young African American workers who showed sustained unemployment for the entire three month period from January to March, 1990 was 41 percent, more than ten times the official Milwaukee area unemployment rate of 3.8 percent for March, 1990. When the U.S. Department of Labor's alternative measure for unemployment is calculated including discouraged workers plus one-half of the part-time labor force, the unemployment rate for young African American men in Milwaukee was estimated at 60 percent in First Quarter, 1990

Nothing has changed since 1990, the unemployment rate for Milwaukees black men is the same today-at least 60%.

And of those with jobs, only a small minority actually pay a livable wages.

The vast majority of African American men in their early twenties who were employed were relegated to marginal, low-wage jobs for the duration of the 39 month period studied with most of the jobs in retail trades and the service industries. In 1990 only 885 of the 8,421 jobs held by men in the study population paid a living wage, and only 386 jobs paid a family wage.

Unfortunately Whites have conditioned themselves to completely ignore this.Its a damn shame that people are treated this way in the so called land of freedom and opportunity.


http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/pages/surveys/each/afriamer.htm

i dont understand, but at the same time im trying to get into marquette university with a really good GPA through high school,i helped out in the community at different events, i served the poor several times at the soup kitchens...and a black friend of mine whom has a lower grade point average was not involved in any extra curricular activities, never helped in the community gets in...when i worked so hard to get into a great school like marquette. what do you have to say about that example?


How come whites always have an affirmitive action story of how they were discriminated against whenever racism is brought up?I dont believe your story is true.Besides,white women benefit more than any other group from AA.Clearly AA doesnt benefit the masses of black men who are flat out jobless or either underemployed.

I was watching the lost episodes of the Dave Chappelle show and Charlie Murphy asked if anyone has ever thought: "You know, maybe everyone isn't a racist, maybe I'm just an asshole?"

Has anyone in here ever had that thought?

I was watching the lost episodes of the Dave Chappelle show and Charlie Murphy asked if anyone has ever thought: "You know, maybe everyone isn't a racist, maybe I'm just an asshole?"

Has anyone in here ever had that thought?


Ahh, Dave Chappelle,Bill Cosby,Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson or Chris Rock,white americas spokes people for black america.


Racism is a huge problem,its just that most whites dont give a damn because it doesnt effect them.

There was a reason this thread died, and it should have stayed dead.

:lock::lock::lock:

Nothing has changed since 1990, the unemployment rate for Milwaukees black men is the same today-at least 60%.

And of those with jobs, only a small minority actually pay a livable wages.



Unfortunately Whites have conditioned themselves to completely ignore this.Its a damn shame that people are treated this way in the so called land of freedom and opportunity.


http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/pages/surveys/each/afriamer.htm


oh get off it. Its always white peoples fault isnt it? Why is it my fault that many blacks arent graduating high school in this city?

troll?

You would never see an event like Beale street in downtown Memphis or the Circle City Classics in downtown Indianapolis Indiana where events drawing masses of blacks are welcomed.Take a trip to Milwaukees downtown area and just about the only blacks you will see are shoe shiners or bums on the street, with a few token black women holding downtown area jobs.

Do you work downtown? Do you know this for a fact? I don't keep statistics on this or anything, but I really think you're completely wrong about this. I work in the heart of downtown and it seems fairly diverse.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist or that it doesn't even exist in downtown Milwaukee, I just don't see it as any different then any other large city to be honest other than say New York or LA where there is, for obvious reasons, more diversity to begin with. Maybe you just need to live in Eau Clare or Oshkosh for a week before you complain about the lack of diversity in Milwaukee. It's not perfect, but saying 'Milwaukee is very racist' is generalizing and simply not true.

Um, didnt Milwaukee just hold the NAACP convention walter, you dimwit?

And what is that supposed to mean? They held the Republican National Convention in New York City. And?

And what is that supposed to mean? They held the Republican National Convention in New York City. And?

-You would never see an event like Beale street in downtown Memphis or the Circle City Classics in downtown Indianapolis Indiana where events drawing masses of blacks are welcomed.Take a trip to Milwaukees downtown area and just about the only blacks you will see are shoe shiners or bums on the street, with a few token black women holding downtown area jobs-

He said that blacks in masses are not welcomed in Milwaukee. NAACP isnt a mass of blacks? The city has no problem allowing Juneteenth celebrations and a gospel, jazz, and blues festival to occur there...the first of which always is host to fights and crime it seems. The city has no problem holding African World Festival (http://www.africanworldfestival.com/). Is it Milwaukee's fault that our city government and city police dont want blacks or anyone else cruising? Watch videos of it here and you will see why. People pissing on lawns, fights, drugs, driving on medians, blocking traffic, and the list goes on. And many black nighlife and clubs are shut down because the dumb idiots in this city who always have to start shit and ruin it for the rest.

Shoe shiners and the token black lady? Please. Regular blacks are downtown all the time...businessmen, students, teenagers, workers, construction, etc. I dont know what kinds of events this fool wants or where he wants them. You will see your share of thugs and bums...but there are thugs and bums in Manhattan, San Francisco, Miami, and Boston too.

Thanks for explaining.

Thanks for explaining.

your welcome! :)

My anger wasnt directed at you Lmichigan, it was to that guy walter and his b.s.