Rail Baltica [Archive] - Page 9

ArtManDoo

June 29th, 2011, 07:09 PM

Tbh,I think all rolling stock transition has been planned as painless as possible.

Tbh it all just happened, nothing was planned. Yeah. Funny. 20 years nothing happens and then there is need to rebuild all platforms overnight. I doubt there was something planned, until now everything just happened and a few things were planned. Estonians even didn’t know how much new consists will be needed. Actually the tender was also incompetent. I don’t complain a lot because flirt is good train to buy but I explain a bit why the tender was incompetent. One condition in Estonians tender for new trains was the number of consists that will be bought of course Stadler was cheapest because flirt cars are the shortest ones having jakobsen bogies, caf cars are longer. So if Estonians chose CAF then they would get more seats(more train if to count total length of all trains that will be bought). So plenty of incompetence. In another country people get fired of such a crap work.

Another failure is the number of trains. Estonians didn’t have any example of new timetable to relay on when the number was decided. The number of trains was taken quite randomly. Professionals first make the timetable according to some criterias and then see how many consists the timetable needs.

Ok enough of critics now. Let’s think how it could be turned into good. One thing makes it all lot’s easier. Estonians buy diesel flirts not GTW’s. It means that converting diesel Flirt into Electric is peace of cake. So let’s expect that Estonians will electrify some lines that are not electrified. And then maybe a new tender will be maid.

But I will discuss a little about what I think will happen. When new trains enter into service they will be overcrowded. For next nothing is done, just wait until some people return to their car or the price will be higher and some people still return to cars. Or they really do something, a new tender for example will be maid and some trains will be rented until the next new trains will arrive. Or some lines will be served by these old DR’s while most lines get new stock(quite bad one and the maintenance place for DR’s can’t be removed).

But Estonia is the only country in Baltics using General Electrics

Imho,this was really bad choice by Eesti Raudtee. I've heard that they even had to select between buying brand new locomotives or buying refurbished GE locomotives...they chose latter,as those were dirt cheap I mean damn,although those were refurbished,they are Dash-7's (made in 80's). That's like..umm..three generations older than current General Electric produced locomotives,if I'm correct.

Maybe it wasn’t the best buy but I don’t think it was really bad. I think it was a good buy. They got good locos very cheaply. Of course these can’t be compared to GE newest models that are the best freight locos in world for heavy trains. By the way if to remember the last bigger crash in Aegviidu then the crew of locomotive survived having minor injuries just because of being in US loco. If they had 2TE, I don’t want to think about…. two more deed I think.

ArtManDoo

June 29th, 2011, 07:11 PM

The only probalmatic route that remains is Vilnius-Klaipėda which is very important and is currently served by (shitty) TEP70/TEP70BS (The last one or two TEP60s are being retired at the moment). The problem is that even the new TEP70BS'es that Litrail has purchased are rubbish and unreliable. They have nothing to change them with so it sometimes happens that ER20 freight locos are used to pull passenger trains. That, of course compromises the schedule due to lack of speed and other characteristics which are not suitable for a passenger train.

The Vln-Klaipeda is quite popular indeed. I have seen it as long as 14 cars. The TEP70BS is really nothing good. Brand new locos from Russia but still the same as 30 years ago. I think that the buy of BS was also political as was the buy of RA2. The ordinary TEP70 isn’t that capricious as BS but also not very good. I know that LG tested ER20 on Klaipeda intercity and the tests were successful. The ER20 can be reconfigured for passenger trains, it’s just matter of time when LG allocates some ER20 to passenger division. The problem is that maintenance of ER20(I mean tanking etc.) is maid in Radviliskis, but best place for maintain passenger locos is Vilnius that has no equipment for ER20. It’s possible to change Klaipeda train locos in Radviliskis but it’s not very comfy. I hope the train remains as loco hauled, then it is like real train and of course LG can regulate the length of it car by car. At moment there is no big problems but LG should begin to plan to buy new coaches for Klaipeda intercity.

Those old TEP60 are state of art, in their time about 40 years ago they were great locos. I think that TEP60 is best passenger loco that Russians built, of course like with all things it was copied from some US or other loco from aboard(TEP60 copied from German loco, Russians bought from Germany). ‘

By the way Lithuania organizes the EU basketball something sorry about the expression. I think LG will hold their TEP60 for special trains during the basketball time. Does anybody know is there planned any special trains, I think there will be?

Meanwhile in Latvia, LDz RSS [for several months now] is still taking over Estonian 2TE116.

Latvia has big loco repair factory in Daugavpils. It needs work so LDZ cargo can’t go for better stock :)

That specific 2TE116 was one of few locomotives of Eesti Raudtee which wasn't painted to Eesti Raudtee livery. So,after it's sale,only few 2TE116's remain in Estonian service. Most of them are used in Southern Estonia. I guess they are fairly sturdy,as almost all freight operators around Baltic region still use them.

Until 2010 only Estonian Railways, Balt Trans Service and RZD used 2TE116 in Baltics. Now(actually only in Estonia because in Latvia the RZD only as far as Rezekne). Operators in Latvia and Lithuania used 2TE10, this is completely different loco powered by 2 stroke engines. Now some 2TE116 haul freights all over Latvia. Lithuania doesn’t see any 2TE116 traffic, BC comes with 2TE10 an 2M62, LDZ comes with 2M62 and LG has superb ER20.

Eesti Raudtee now needs 2TE116 only for tiny section from Koidula border station to Petseri station. So no need any more for the whole way from Tartu to Petseri.

ArtManDoo

June 29th, 2011, 07:18 PM

This looks like very expensive toy.

It’s far from toy. Do you want to build it when all lands are built up and allocating room for new infrastructure is extremely expensive? The wear on roadway is huge and the railway is just the one that reduces the wear put on road. There is too much accidents and death on roads in Baltic area. Now it’s the right time for the new rail. The profile must be built for speeds until 350km/h. But infrastructure can be cheaper allowing speeds up to 250km/h.

Oh, well I looked a bit closer - trains stop in Riga. They make special detour from a site 20 km east from Riga.
That improves my opinion about this project per some 30% . But still negative.

Riga found nearly 2 billion Euros for streets, if needed they find some for new railway. The solution today seems not so good indeed. The railway should pass Riga centre.

The winner is RVR+... CAF!

Seems that estonians can dream about operating flirts to Riga as latvians doesn't need to allow flirt on LDZ infra, the same as with LG ER20 what is not allowed on LDZ infra

ArtManDoo

June 29th, 2011, 07:38 PM

If wanted then the solution can be found. Here is an example of local freight train from Switzerland(about the same area as Estonia).

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/3/2/0/1320.1303417547.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/5/9/5059.1244305439.jpg

Gatis

June 29th, 2011, 07:53 PM

Riga found nearly 2 billion Euros for streets, if needed they find some for new railway.
:D Where are those 2 billion EUR? They are badly needed for Riga streets!

There is too much accidents and death on roads in Baltic area. Now it’s the right time for the new rail.
I am sure that very few % of total accidents happen on Via Baltica, most happen elsewhere and Rail Baltica won't help at this. No, of course, if it saves some lives, that's great benefit, sure!

xkala1x

June 29th, 2011, 08:04 PM

The Vln-Klaipeda is quite popular indeed. I have seen it as long as 14 cars. The TEP70BS is really nothing good. Brand new locos from Russia but still the same as 30 years ago. I think that the buy of BS was also political as was the buy of RA2. The ordinary TEP70 isn’t that capricious as BS but also not very good. I know that LG tested ER20 on Klaipeda intercity and the tests were successful. The ER20 can be reconfigured for passenger trains, it’s just matter of time when LG allocates some ER20 to passenger division. The problem is that maintenance of ER20(I mean tanking etc.) is maid in Radviliskis, but best place for maintain passenger locos is Vilnius that has no equipment for ER20. It’s possible to change Klaipeda train locos in Radviliskis but it’s not very comfy. I hope the train remains as loco hauled, then it is like real train and of course LG can regulate the length of it car by car. At moment there is no big problems but LG should begin to plan to buy new coaches for Klaipeda intercity.

Those old TEP60 are state of art, in their time about 40 years ago they were great locos. I think that TEP60 is best passenger loco that Russians built, of course like with all things it was copied from some US or other loco from aboard(TEP60 copied from German loco, Russians bought from Germany). ‘

By the way Lithuania organizes the EU basketball something sorry about the expression. I think LG will hold their TEP60 for special trains during the basketball time. Does anybody know is there planned any special trains, I think there will be?

Latvia has big loco repair factory in Daugavpils. It needs work so LDZ cargo can’t go for better stock :)

Until 2010 only Estonian Railways, Balt Trans Service and RZD used 2TE116 in Baltics. Now(actually only in Estonia because in Latvia the RZD only as far as Rezekne). Operators in Latvia and Lithuania used 2TE10, this is completely different loco powered by 2 stroke engines. Now some 2TE116 haul freights all over Latvia. Lithuania doesn’t see any 2TE116 traffic, BC comes with 2TE10 an 2M62, LDZ comes with 2M62 and LG has superb ER20.

Eesti Raudtee now needs 2TE116 only for tiny section from Koidula border station to Petseri station. So no need any more for the whole way from Tartu to Petseri.

2te116 sõidavad iga päev Tartu suunal, kui ei usu mine vaata järgi.

xkala1x

June 29th, 2011, 08:11 PM

It’s far from toy. Do you want to build it when all lands are built up and allocating room for new infrastructure is extremely expensive? The wear on roadway is huge and the railway is just the one that reduces the wear put on road. There is too much accidents and death on roads in Baltic area. Now it’s the right time for the new rail. The profile must be built for speeds until 350km/h. But infrastructure can be cheaper allowing speeds up to 250km/h.

Riga found nearly 2 billion Euros for streets, if needed they find some for new railway. The solution today seems not so good indeed. The railway should pass Riga centre.

Kevadel 2011 alustasid Siemensid sõitmist Lätti(parovoz.com-is on pildid)!!.

Seems that estonians can dream about operating flirts to Riga as latvians doesn't need to allow flirt on LDZ infra, the same as with LG ER20 what is not allowed on LDZ infra

Kevadel 2011 alustasid Siemensid sõitmist Lätti(parovoz.com-is on pildid)!!.

Jānis

June 29th, 2011, 08:36 PM

I am from those who are skeptical about Rail Baltic. There's even no direct train between any Baltic capital...

+ I don't get why Bauska wouldn't have it's own station and why should it cross Daugava where the river is deep and 1 km wide, if 3 km on west it's only 400 meters wide and there even used to be something like railway bridge less than 15 years ago.

Latvia has big loco repair factory in Daugavpils. It needs work so LDZ cargo can’t go for better stock

:)

Seems that estonians can dream about operating flirts to Riga as latvians doesn't need to allow flirt on LDZ infra, the same as with LG ER20 what is not allowed on LDZ infra

LDz Infrastruktūra actually allows all kinds of rolling stock with exception EVR GE locos because they are too heavy. ER20 have been pulling trains in Latvia since spring. [1] (http://parovoz.com/newgallery/pg_view.php?ID=308878&LNG=RU#picture)[2] (http://parovoz.com/newgallery/pg_view.php?ID=308964&LNG=RU#picture)[3] (http://parovoz.com/newgallery/pg_view.php?ID=308973&LNG=RU#picture)

bebrs12

June 29th, 2011, 10:17 PM

I'm also skeptical about Rail Baltica. The report above shows that passenger traffic must be intra-Baltic (there is no dreaming about significant passenger flow over the Polish border) and even worse - the freight traffic must be generated in the Baltic states and Finland as East-West traffic is not targeted.
Yet maybe obviously missing Skulte-Parnu section could be built. Something similar to Botniabanan but in 1520mm.

Burtinsh

June 30th, 2011, 10:43 AM

Same here. I think for all that money EU should buy us new trains for all operating lines, and repair some lines, so they can be used like international ones. For example:
Riga-Skulte
Riga-Lugazi(Valka)
Riga-Daugavpils
Riga-Jelgava
Riga-Tukums
Those are lines, which needs new trains, repair, and some of them it won't be bad if they were electrified.
And Jelgava-Sauli? (No idea where it goes after border) :lol:
should be repaired, and trains from Riga to Kaunas (via Sauli?)
could go by stopping at Jelgava, Sauli and Kaunas. Still fast. 3 stops. With speed up to 160 kph it could be made in less than 3 hours.

Other direction:
Riga-Tallin
2 options here:
1st one is to use existing line via Valka and Tartu.
2nd is to make new rail section from Skulte to Parnu or where ever the rail ends in EST.
Again:
1st option would take about 4 hours if the same speed and stops like Valmiera and Tartu (maybe add some other big towns like Cesis, Valka.
2nd option would be Riga-Parnu-Tallin with no more stops. (as there are no that big towns)

Well this is my idea, it would cost way cheaper than Rail Baltica, as rail is already in good condition (Only 1 bad thing-safety) Trains via Sigulda with 160 kph wouldnt be good idea, as I like to sit on rail myself. :lol:
I think it's the same in other towns. Option would be fences, but I wont let anyone to fence my rail xD
Another thing is cost of trains, but as all Baltic countries are buying some trains themselves, EU just have to wait until they're done, and then start it's part. :D

EDIT: Oh I remembered about only 1 rail in many lines. Well that's also expensive to wide the lines there, but I still think that Rail Baltica would cost more, because new lines will be made there. Anyways, I hope I'm not the only one to imagine it like this, not shitty EU project.

Tin_Can

June 30th, 2011, 12:58 PM

Gatis

June 30th, 2011, 01:33 PM

I think for all that money EU should buy us new trains
Now this is wrong thinking... WE ARE EU. EU supports what we want and not what some mysterious "they" like. With some painful exceptions, e.g. closure of sugar factories in Latvia due to... well, most likely Danisco business interests.

EU institutions had very low interest to support Rail Baltica and the initial investigations were supported after rather long lobbying. As far as I have heard in Brussels Transport Directorate (but last time I was there two years ago, may be things are changing), this project is considered to be very politically motivated and they think that Baltics are getting a heavy stone (financially) on their neck with this project.

bebrs12

June 30th, 2011, 01:41 PM

Well,this 'shitty EU project' was actually started way back,when we weren't in EU and first ideas for Rail Baltica had emerged in late 1990s,few years after all cross Baltic travel by train had died. :wink2: EU and ways to fund this project came lot later.

As for Skulte-Mõisaküla-Pärnu line on Latvian & Estonia section of proposed Rail Baltica - Skulte-Mõisaküla line was dismantled by Latvians long time ago,even though it should have been upgraded instead. Eventually this killed off Pärnu-Mõisaküla line,as it basically lead to the middle of nowhere and was only used for passenger traffic to/from Mõisaküla. Really short sighted decisions,considering that same section is proposed to be (re-)built again :nuts:

Only partly true. There have never been true purpose-built Riga-Tallinn railway. The Skulte-Mõisaküla-Pärnu was introduced in 1981 when Rūjiena-Mõisaküla-Pärnu was re-gauged to 1520mm. And the route was old, curvy and makes a mayor de-tour and goes trough several towns.
And restoring old line where no rails are left is in equal expanses to restoring old line where the old rails are still present.

Into

June 30th, 2011, 05:34 PM

xkala1x: I have read these reports, that's part of my job.

Yep, they have:
- three passenger stops in Estonia: TLN, TLN airport, Parnu
- one in Latvia: Riga Central
- two in Lithuania: Panevezys, Kaunas (Palemonas - serving both Kaunas and the airport).

We can forget about any importance of Riga airport in future. None of the medium sized cities in Latvia is served - nor Valmiera or Jelgava. Jelgava is especially painful - there were high hopes for industrial development basing on railway. And we should pay for all of this a lot.
Well, if we are forced into this business, should be squeezed out the maximum. Iecava, Bauska and Salaspils will have good possibilities to develop industry. But that would cost a lot more instead of using the existing industrial development in Jelgava.

Gati,

after reading the report, do you think the assumptions AECOM makes for their recommended alignments seem valid? At first blush it would appear that having this line go through Jelgava would be a given.
I also find it surprising that they recommend only one station in LV, in Riga and that is with a spur line.

Gatis

June 30th, 2011, 06:33 PM

To be frank, I have lost myself a bit in their cost-benefit analysis. The assumptions and basis for their assessment is unclear, f.e. I don't get where they get such high volume and profits for cargo trains, so far these look very unrealistic. But this most likely is my fault, this last report I listed quickly.

I assume also that Latvian side has been too ignorant in this project - that's why the Riga station has such weird solution and why Jelgava is not on-board.
Riga could not afford a new railway bridge / tunnel north from Centrum - that alone would cost more than 2 billions. But there IS possibility to use the site of the existing railway bridge, building a new one next to it, and then going along the airport to Jelgava and from Jelgava to Panevezys.
Latvian railways are planning a new railway roundabout around Riga for cargo trains - that's why there is that bridge across Daugava east from Salaspils. But I would neve imagine that this could be a part of Rail Baltica, because it was planned for Russian gauge trains coming from Russia, Kazachstan etc.
All of this is very weird. Nope, the more I think about this, the less I like this alignment. Better alignment also would be a huge loss, but not that much.

Rebasepoiss

June 30th, 2011, 08:17 PM

Btw,if you noticed,then this option of Rail Baltica would mean average speeds of 200-220km/h and need for some high speed trains. :banana:
Not quite. The average speed with stops would be 170km/h

But the cool thing is that Tallinn-Pärnu would only take around 50 minutes :)

The reason why the new line bypasses Riga is probably because they are planning to run freight trains at night.

Burtinsh

June 30th, 2011, 10:04 PM

Not quite. The average speed with stops would be 170km/h

But the cool thing is that Tallinn-Pärnu would only take around 50 minutes :)

The reason why the new line bypasses Riga is because they are planning to run freight trains at night.

Ehm, aren't they doing the same already? :D I've heard some trains going through Sigulda very late, which I mean from 11pm +. Ok maybe they aren't night trains, but not far.

bebrs12

July 1st, 2011, 12:18 AM

To be frank, I have lost myself a bit in their cost-benefit analysis. The assumptions and basis for their assessment is unclear, f.e. I don't get where they get such high volume and profits for cargo trains, so far these look very unrealistic. But this most likely is my fault, this last report I listed quickly.

I'd like to present some good data about the existing situation in North-South freight market. It's from the AECOM report.

Modal split:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5111/5889005384_fd53ace030_z.jpg
So vast majority of North-South traffic is done by sea not road.

Here are biggest freight groups and country pairs:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5192/5889005248_cca493a15e.jpg
Most of them involve Finland but - as Tallinn-Helsinki rail tunnel is a sci-fi - it will be hard for RB to get some slice of it as extra transfer at Tallinn would be needed. Most of remaining market are intra-Baltic that are done by trucks because trips are too short for rail (and theoretically could be done by rail already now).

And a more philosophical note: the report clearly states (page 87) that, if RB is built, the costs for Finnish-German freight will be similar for sea and rail route (cheaper for sea actually). So it's supposed that we invest EUR 3.6 billion in an infrastructure element that will have a serious competition from an existing, flexible, low capital cost, cheep and privately-run mode. I think Rail Baltica try to fix what is not broken. And fix it expensively and risky.

Just from reading that report I realised how lucky our region is with so many ports and easy sea-access to Western Europe :)

Tin_Can

July 1st, 2011, 01:48 AM

^^
Ship loading,shipping & unloading takes a lot more time than it would do with freight railways. And unless ships start using sails again in the future because of rising fuel prices,then Rail Baltica (or any other railway) would operate a lot more environmentally friendly. AECOM study suggests that core Rail Baltica line could be electrified and passenger trains would be EMU's. Freight trains would be diesel powered. Tbh,I can't see any reason why both passenger & freight traffic should not be operated by electric trains/locomotives,making it very eco-friendly.

As the study shows,core Rail Baltica would co-operate with existing 1520mm ..khm...'Rail Baltica'. Current regional railways would serve as feeders for core Rail Baltica line and would connect rest of towns & villages to it. This means switching trains,well adjusted schedule and a lot more trains,so Rail Baltica & local trains could supplement each other.

http://i55.tinypic.com/24c6yz4.jpg

Study also shows that each of three Baltic states would gain nearly twice as much as they invest to this project. Biggest benefiters are in such order - Estonia,Latvia & Lithuania. In sections,Estonia would have to build or rebuild 229 km of tracks,Latvia 235 km of tracks and Lithuania 264 km of tracks.

Considering that construction of 1435mm Rail Baltica could start in 2019 or so,ever changing economical situation (I guess it's safe to say that 10 years from today,we all are richer :wink2:),increasing fuel prices,growing industrial output and overall EU views at railway development (less travel with planes and more with railways),then this project is very down-to-earth & reasonable. :cheers: I'm very positive about Rail Baltica.

Now,only question remains - why are Latvians so sceptical about it? Some kind of national pride & issues over 'good' air travel (through RIX) and 'bad' railways? :D Or jealousy over fact that Latvia will have least Rail Baltica stations?

Rebasepoiss

July 1st, 2011, 11:00 AM

At the moment, Lithuania is the only country of the 3 that has any kind of road tax and it applies for heavy vehicles. When Latvia and Estonia also introduce a road tax for trucks (which they inevitably will at some point), Rail Baltica will start to seem a viable option for transporting goods to Europe, especially with piggyback cars.

Probably a lot of you didn't know it but on Tallinn-Helsinki Ro-Ro ferries, a large part of the trailers travel alone without a truck. I don't see why this couldn't happen with Rail Baltica.

chornedsnorkack

July 1st, 2011, 11:10 AM

IMO Rail Baltica can be done in stages which make sense each taken alone, and in combination.

Rail Baltica is around 1200 km. Chinese just completed 1302 km high speed railway in less than 3 years 3 months. But they did pay over € 20 milliards for it.

Moderate speed new built railways in Nordics include 1524 mm Oikorata Kerava-Lahti, 220 km/h, and 1435 mm Botniabanan, 250 km/h.

Kaunas-Warszawa is slightly under 500 km (depending on precise route). Suppose that a double track, 1435 mm, medium speed (220...250 km/h max) railway were built Warszaw-Kaunas, and a gauge changer somewhere in Kaunas. By day a passenger train might have average 170 km/h, and travel Warszaw-Kaunas in 3 hours - and if a variable gauge train, continue Warszaw-Vilnius in 4 hours, or Warszaw-Riga. By night, at average 70 km/h, freight trains could travel Warszaw-Kaunas in 7 hours and reach rail yards for consumption in factories of Kaunas, or reloading to 1520 mm wagons or trucks, and sleeper passenger trains could also travel for 7 hours.

What would be more interesting for passengers and taxpayers in Kaunas: to build a railway for under 500 km to Warszaw, or over 600 km to Tallinn?

Burtinsh

July 1st, 2011, 11:10 AM

^^

Now,only question remains - why are Latvians so sceptical about it? Some kind of national pride & issues over 'good' air travel (through RIX) and 'bad' railways? :D Or jealousy over fact that Latvia will have least Rail Baltica stations?

Yes, I'm jealous about 1 station, and that it's passing city. :D But all other of your post, made me more positive feeling about RB. :)
Now I'm 50/50.
GUYS. Impress me. Maybe my positive side will rise, and kick negative one out. :lol:

IMO Rail Baltica can be done in stages which make sense each taken alone, and in combination.

Rail Baltica is around 1200 km. Chinese just completed 1302 km high speed railway in less than 3 years 3 months. But they did pay over € 20 milliards for it.

Moderate speed new built railways in Nordics include 1524 mm Oikorata Kerava-Lahti, 220 km/h, and 1435 mm Botniabanan, 250 km/h.

Kaunas-Warszawa is slightly under 500 km (depending on precise route). Suppose that a double track, 1435 mm, medium speed (220...250 km/h max) railway were built Warszaw-Kaunas, and a gauge changer somewhere in Kaunas. By day a passenger train might have average 170 km/h, and travel Warszaw-Kaunas in 3 hours - and if a variable gauge train, continue Warszaw-Vilnius in 4 hours, or Warszaw-Riga. By night, at average 70 km/h, freight trains could travel Warszaw-Kaunas in 7 hours and reach rail yards for consumption in factories of Kaunas, or reloading to 1520 mm wagons or trucks, and sleeper passenger trains could also travel for 7 hours.

What would be more interesting for passengers and taxpayers in Kaunas: to build a railway for under 500 km to Warszaw, or over 600 km to Tallinn?

Uhm, well of course that taxpayers would love Kaunas-Warsaw more than Kaunas-Tallinn, and it's just normal that they prefer going south and then west, than north to nowhere. But well Latvian and Estonian sides won't be too happy, if RB would be cancelled and built just until Kaunas.

Gatis

July 1st, 2011, 11:47 AM

Now,only question remains - why are Latvians so sceptical about it? Some kind of national pride & issues over 'good' air travel (through RIX) and 'bad' railways? Or jealousy over fact that Latvia will have least Rail Baltica stations?
Because I don't see any sense to spend that much on something what is not too useful. Well, high speed train is a nice looking toy, but during the crisis we learned how dangerous are useless shiny toys.

Regarding the airport - if we get something else instead of Riga airport (which currently really gives lots of profits to Latvia, contrary to airBaltic), then I would forget about the pride. Now I see only that we should pay a lot for ruining the airline business in Riga and getting almost nothing instead.

But well Latvian and Estonian sides won't be too happy, if RB would be cancelled and built just until Kaunas.
That looks like a real scenario, especially if Latvia is uninterested. We understand that we drive Estonians mad by this, but - should we pay that much just to make Estonians happy and us ourselves - unhappy?
IMHO - the best could be: to find a way, how to make the railway line in Latvia more sensible. And I am quite angry that our own officials didn't do it.

chornedsnorkack

July 1st, 2011, 12:25 PM

IMHO - the best could be: to find a way, how to make the railway line in Latvia more sensible. And I am quite angry that our own officials didn't do it.
It seems to me that the next stage after Warszaw-Kaunas could be Kaunas-Riga.

Which routing Kaunas-Riga could make best sense for Lithuania and Latvia?

For Lithuania, the obvious choices could be Šiauliai or Panevežys. Which of these would Latvia prefer?

Before IInd world war, the railways of Lithuania were 1435 mm. Those of Latvia were 1524 mm - but the gauge did not change at the border. 1435 mm railways continued into Latvia to rail hubs at Liepaja, Riga and Daugavpils.

Jelgava-Riga was double gauge, both 1435 and 1524 mm.

Rebasepoiss

July 1st, 2011, 01:08 PM

Yes, I'm jealous about 1 station, and that it's passing city. :D
The line itself bypasses Riga, yes, but passenger trains make a detour to Riga central station so no worries!

I just don't understand how Latvians can be so short sighted. This is not a short term project. The benefits of this project will grow over decades. I understand that Baltic countries aren't used to making large investments with a better future in sight but you have to start somewhere.

Besides, you are all looking at this from the wrong angle. This is not a passenger-line. This is a mixed-traffic line with the largest revenue coming from freight trains. It might easily be that putting a trailer on a train and sending it to Western Europe will be cheaper in 10-20 years than hauling it by a truck.

IMO Rail Baltica can be done in stages which make sense each taken alone, and in combination.

Are you all forgetting Finland? Do you really think they have nothing to transport to Western Europe? If you only build Riga-Kaunas-Polish border section, you will automatically lose the opportunity to get Finnish goods on Rail Baltica.

Tin_Can

July 1st, 2011, 01:19 PM

Gatis,did you read that study at all? How on earth would it make Latvians 'unhappy' if there are obvious gains from 1435mm gauge Rail Baltica and the study takes into account all future aspects & expenditures of freight & passenger traffic through Baltics? Would you expect that costs of shipping & airlines service remains same for next few decades? Or would you expect that there would not be any road taxation in Baltics?

Furthermore,what would you suggest for Estonia,if Latvia should not build any 1435mm railways?

From my point of view,Rail Baltica means high quality railways and civilized connection for Baltics. It will help to increase competitiveness of our region. Let's not forget that rest of Europe is well connected by railways and you could basically get from one end of Europe to another by rail. Unbelievable,other European countries doesn't seem to have any problems with having railways competing with airplanes,ships & highways :| I wonder why is that... Competition between several ways of transportation helps to decrease prices as it's necessary to maintain customers. Also,one type of transportation doesn't rule out others. Remember Icelandic volcanoes? When all airplanes were grounded because of it,people flocked to railway stations as it offered decent alternative. Tbh,if this would have happened here,then people would still be living in airports and would have never got home :lol: More serious hazard for future are fuel prices - running aircrafts is already costly. Alternative would be using highways,but this would mean putting extra stress on them,possible needs for upgrading road network etc. Not to mention that freight transportation with trucks is somewhat limited and would not be profitable for large cargo volumes. For passengers,bus travel would be alternative,but honestly,who wants to spend almost entire day on bus while would could cover same distance lot faster on railway? (that is - on civilized railways :) not on those ancient crap railways which have really low train speeds)

Tin_Can

July 1st, 2011, 01:41 PM

Yes, I'm jealous about 1 station, and that it's passing city. :D But all other of your post, made me more positive feeling about RB. :)
Now I'm 50/50.
GUYS. Impress me. Maybe my positive side will rise, and kick negative one out. :lol:

Would it make you feel any better if you knew that Riga would also get maintenance facility,while in Estonia & Lithuania maintenance facilities would be located in small towns in the middle of nowhere (Rapla & Jonava)? :D

I guess Latvia lost it's second Rail Baltica stop because of geographical positions of cities - if it would have gone through Jelgava (and Sauliai),then travel time between Tallinn & Warsaw would have been 6,1h for passenger trains (with average speeds of 128km/h) and 11.5h for freight trains (average speed 70km/h) In another words,it would have resulted considerable decrease in track speeds and increase in travel time,making it hard competing with other transportation.
Another losing factor for Jelgava could have been it's close proximity to Riga - it just would be more efficient to run local trains to Riga often,than making ~100km detour through Jelgava & Sauliai.

Gatis

July 1st, 2011, 01:49 PM

Did not read the report thoroughly - no time for this. I listed it through searching for basis of their forecasts and was not too impressed, especially regarding the cargo traffic.
I saw that they have calculated fine profits from this project, but I have seen how the same experts from this company (could be from any other, AECOM is good company) can calculate and prove many interesting things. Paper bears anything and wishful thinking helps at it.

As an environmentalist (by education) I am all for train, versus cars and even more - air traffic. I know very well - train is environmentally better than road, train is a lot better than airplanes.

But - how the hell could all of this help, if I see a financially unfeasible rail project? You can tag many things as "future", "progressive" etc., but that does not change simple things - everything you do, should be viable and necessary.

Gatis

July 1st, 2011, 02:53 PM

OK, a kind of experiment:
- red ir preferred Rail Baltic option. Length of this section (with detour to Riga) - 186 km;
- green is my proposal. Length - 182 km. Two more stops - Riga airport and Jelgava. Jelgava is optional - may be not needed for passengers, just for cargo. Route goes back to Lithuania along Pasvalis and Panevezys.

OK, cargo still goes through Riga, what's not good, but economically looks more sensible.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/38/railbalt.jpg

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5400/railbaltriga.jpg

chornedsnorkack

July 1st, 2011, 03:10 PM

Are you all forgetting Finland? Do you really think they have nothing to transport to Western Europe?

Not unless they build the Finnish Gulf tunnel.

How far are the Finns currently with upgrading Norrbotniabanan and Haparandabanan and building a 1435 mm railway Tornio-Helsinki?

Rebasepoiss

July 1st, 2011, 03:17 PM

^^ First, operating freight trains at night through Riga may not even be possible since new projects have to follow quite strict noise levels.

Secondly, the railway to Jelgava doesn't have a suitable geometry to allow speeds of 240km/h.

And why push the train to Riga airport? I thought you have plans for an airport train anyway.

And somehow I trust a company that has the necessary experience more than one person who feels that something isn't feasible. Of course, there's always some uncertainty but the picture isn't as dark as you think it is.

Not unless they build the Finnish Gulf tunnel.

How far are the Finns currently with upgrading Norrbotniabanan and Haparandabanan and building a 1435 mm railway Tornio-Helsinki?
Building a tunnel is not necessary to connect Finland to RB. Have you heard anything about inetrmodal transport, containers, ro-ro ships?

Erm, finns? Both of these lines are in Sweden. And there is absolutely no need for Finland to build a 1435mm line to Helsinki. But maybe there would be a train ferry between Helsinki and Tallinn...who knows.

Gatis

July 1st, 2011, 03:36 PM

And somehow I trust a company that has the necessary experience more than one person who feels that something isn't feasible. Of course, there's always some uncertainty but the picture isn't as dark as you think it is.
If that would be only me who feels that something isn't feasible... Most of transport related institutions here think the same.
AECOM is paid to make this project happen. And they do what they can. Many have done this, but things often don't work anyway. Look at this:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1407840

Secondly, the railway to Jelgava doesn't have a suitable geometry to allow speeds of 240km/h.
And current detour to Riga has this geometry? No.

And why push the train to Riga airport? I thought you have plans for an airport train anyway.
Yes, but then there is even an existing train to Tallinn, why to push for Rail Baltica?
Good quality fast street tram to Riga airport is more feasible than train, both options have been compared. Only if Rail Baltica behemoth comes, train might be more useful (especially if it connects to Jelgava and Panevezys)

Well, my option really seems not feasible for cargo trains, that is true. Meh, scrap the project, it is just pointless.

Tin_Can

July 1st, 2011, 03:49 PM

Gatis,you didn't answer to my question. What would you suggest for Estonia,if Latvia should not build any 1435mm railways? Huh?

If Latvians show so little interest in this project,then what would you propose?
Current situation on Rail Baltica line is ineffective and only serves interests of selected few businessmen,who don't have any plans for passenger traffic. When things might change,then everybody suddenly starts complaining over Rail Baltica being pointless etc. Sounds bit biased...

Tbh,I honestly don't understand why you are opposing it so much. Those suggestions that AECOM was corrupt and this project is not feasible are just ridiculous.

chornedsnorkack

July 1st, 2011, 04:16 PM

Building a tunnel is not necessary to connect Finland to RB. Have you heard anything about inetrmodal transport, containers, ro-ro ships?

Yes. And if they load on roll-on-roll-over ships anyway, why build Rail Baltica rather than send the same ships to Gdansk or Kapellskär?

Erm, finns? Both of these lines are in Sweden. And there is absolutely no need for Finland to build a 1435mm line to Helsinki.

If Finns do not need a 1435 mm line, why do Balts?

xkala1x

July 1st, 2011, 04:39 PM

Construction of bridge over Riga HES costs 212940000€ I think its better to build overpass along existing railway(Skulte-Riga or smth)

Social benefits from increased employment.
The project will generate jobs in two key ways:
- Direct job creation in the construction phase
- Direct job creation in the operation phase.

Estimates of the number of direct jobs that will be created have been made by considering the labour cost share of the
construction cost and operating costs.
These are discussed below.

Direct job creation in the construction phase
The total labour element of the construction cost has been determined for each nation.

From this and the following key
assumptions the number of Full Time Equivalent (FTE) jobs created has been calculated.
- Construction period 5 years (2020-2024)
- Working hours per day 8 hours
- Working days per year 253
- Labour costs per hour (based on average labour costs from three Baltic states for construction jobs) € 6.19 per hour

Over the five year construction period 11,900 FTE jobs will be created (3,283 in Estonia, 4,199 in LV and 4,419 In Lithuania)
AECOM Final Report 263

Direct job creation in the operation phase.
The labour element of the operating cost has been determined for passenger and freight services. .
From this and the following key assumptions the number of Full Time Equivalent (FTE) jobs created has been calculated.
- Working hours per day 8 hours
- Working days per year 253
- Labour costs per hour (based on average labour costs from three Baltic states for transport, storage and communication jobs)
€ 7.49per hour

From opening the passenger service creates 221 FTE jobs. As the number of freight services increased the number of FTE jobs
created ranges from 110 on opening, 160 in 2030 to 244 in 2040.

Aecom said that some sections would be changed or suboptions added if construction costs are too high or problems with land aquisiton (pressconference Tallinn)

Overall track length 728km There are 26 sections in 728km+ some suboptions

Review and confirm high level feasibility report 6 months
Accepting strategic objectives and preferred routing will require significant consultation

2 Establish PSG, IPO and the 2 IRGs 6 months
Agreeing composition, terms of reference and governance structures will be complex but can be undertaken in parallel with task 1.

3 Strategic stakeholder consultation 6 months A critical process to ensure all parties endorse strategy

4 Definition of programme plan,resourcing and financing arrangements 9 months Establishing at a strategic level, overall structures for progressing with the programme including high level procurement and financing strategies. Opportunities to
propose financing arrangements including PPP.

5 Review of options assessment for individual projects within the programme 12 months Process designed to allow scheme to move towards single option design for all components of the system. Opportunity to test proposal option]s and apply value and risk management processes

6 Environmental Impact Statement 24 months
Environmental Impact Assessment of proposed option,including alternative solutions.
Strategic environmentalassessment has to be done by municipalities in parallel.

7 Spatial and Regional Planning 36 months
Detail planning and reservation of territories

8 Single option design 24 months

Activity to cover all elements
9 Scheme procurement 48 months
Rolling programme to procure all necessary elementsassociated with scheme construction. Land acquisition will be a significant issue and consideration will need to be given to corridor reservation and acquisition.

10 Construction 60 months
11 Testing and commissioning 6 months

Rebasepoiss

July 2nd, 2011, 11:45 AM

If Finns do not need a 1435 mm line, why do Balts?
Finns don't have a land connection with the rest of the 1435mm network. So why build a line? And do I really have to show you the map of Europe to say why a 1435mm line to the Baltics would be useful?

chornedsnorkack

July 2nd, 2011, 05:23 PM

Finns don't have a land connection with the rest of the 1435mm network. So why build a line?

They do have the Tornio Bridge.

Rebasepoiss

July 2nd, 2011, 11:02 PM

I really doubt the Finns would transport goods (or people) to Western Europe via Tornio.

Pro rail baltica

July 3rd, 2011, 09:47 AM

I really doubt the Finns would transport goods (or people) to Western Europe via Tornio.

Yes this is correct. Actually while following this Tornio - Rail Baltica topic I started to worry about the level of education in Baltic region.

In order to give some basic education (that you somtimes need for intelegent discussion) I want to present you the map of Mighty Finland.

Finland is huge country, with low population density. All baltic counrties have similar population density like in metropolita areas of Finland.

http://maps.google.fi/maps?saddr=Tornio&daddr=Helsinki+to:Tallinna,+Harjumaa,+Viro+to:Kaunas,+Liettua&hl=fi&ll=61.731526,58.447266&spn=39.699742,135.263672&sll=60.780619,30.058594&sspn=19.871241,67.631836&geocode=FSDD7AMdaXNwASlhR-trZTjVRTFILlSdC2EqlA%3BFVQelgMdAId8ASmRBiGWxwuSRjFj9-I7hL1OzQ%3BFQ73igMdKLl5ASm_FlbfmZSSRjFwYvwYbbMABA%3BFeioRQMdypFsASlD02excCLnRjG8izfH4NFLYQ&mra=ls&z=4

Helsinki - Tornio 738 km (this number must be x2 since Europe is in the south that is opposite direction from Helsinki -Tornio direction)

Helsinki - Tallin 85 km

Tallin - Kaunas 575 km

http://www.lindaliini.ee/en/ is good, cheap and economical way to do travelling into Tallin. I quess some sort of railship could be used to transport the whole train also.

By the way I am really sorry to hear about the piece of shit purchase from CAF.

The trams that was bought from CAF to Helsinki are really poor quality. They are not designed to winter conditions at all. This means that with low price you cannot actually buy anything good.

I quess that since finns have Pendolinos Latvians want to have some problems buy buying CAF. Hmm.. Thoug it would have been great if Lavians would have asked some use reference of technological level of CAF from Helsinki.

By the way, I quess this means that later Latvia will actually buy train wagons from Finland. Since the Helsinki city that used CAF changed the supplier into http://www.transtech.fi/index.php?94

Once more I am really sorry to hear the bad news from CAF Bombardier and Stadler would have been better options. And of course Tranctech is the best.

xkala1x

July 3rd, 2011, 10:06 AM

Yes this is correct. Actually while following this Tornio - Rail Baltica topic I started to worry about the level of education in Baltic region.

In order to give some basic education (that you somtimes need for intelegent discussion) I want to present you the map of Mighty Finland.

Finland is huge country, with low population density. All baltic counrties have similar population density like in metropolita areas of Finland.

http://maps.google.fi/maps?saddr=Tornio&daddr=Helsinki+to:Tallinna,+Harjumaa,+Viro+to:Kaunas,+Liettua&hl=fi&ll=61.731526,58.447266&spn=39.699742,135.263672&sll=60.780619,30.058594&sspn=19.871241,67.631836&geocode=FSDD7AMdaXNwASlhR-trZTjVRTFILlSdC2EqlA%3BFVQelgMdAId8ASmRBiGWxwuSRjFj9-I7hL1OzQ%3BFQ73igMdKLl5ASm_FlbfmZSSRjFwYvwYbbMABA%3BFeioRQMdypFsASlD02excCLnRjG8izfH4NFLYQ&mra=ls&z=4

Helsinki - Tornio 738 km (this number must be x2 since Europe is in the south that is opposite direction from Helsinki -Tornio direction)

Helsinki - Tallin 85 km

Tallin - Kaunas 575 km

http://www.lindaliini.ee/en/ is good, cheap and economical way to do travelling into Tallin. I quess some sort of railship could be used to transport the whole train also.

By the way I am really sorry to hear about the piece of shit purchase from CAF.

The trams that was bought from CAF to Helsinki are really poor quality. They are not designed to winter conditions at all. This means that with low price you cannot actually buy anything good.

I quess that since finns have Pendolinos Latvians want to have some problems buy buying CAF. Hmm.. Thoug it would have been great if Lavians would have asked some use reference of technological level of CAF from Helsinki.

By the way, I quess this means that later Latvia will actually buy train wagons from Finland. Since the Helsinki city that used CAF changed the supplier into http://www.transtech.fi/index.php?94

Once more I am really sorry to hear the bad news from CAF Bombardier and Stadler would have been better options. And of course Tranctech is the best.

Latvia and Estonia never purchase Transtech production.

Pro rail baltica

July 3rd, 2011, 10:35 AM

Latvia and Estonia never purchase Transtech production.

Why not? At least for trams?

Competative price and technology is designed for harsh winter and summer conditions +40 - (-40) C

xkala1x

July 3rd, 2011, 11:39 AM

Why not? At least for trams?

Competative price and technology is designed for harsh winter and summer conditions +40 - (-40) C

Latvia is buying SKODA trams and Estonia sells CO2 quotas to Spain which means Caf wins tram tender in Estonia.

lukaszek89

July 4th, 2011, 10:08 PM

I think connection between Warsaw and Baltic capitals will be quite successfull. Vilnius, Riga and Tallin are attractive cities to visit. Trade between our countries is also increasing.

I think that PKP will use Pendolino on Rail Baltica. PKP Intercity bought 20 New Pendolino.

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://warszawa.radioplus.pl/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/wiadomosci/warszawa/pendolino-tak-szybko-nie-pojedzie/644543-1-pol-PL/Pendolino-tak-szybko-nie-pojedzie_lightbox_full.jpg&sa=X&ei=UxwSTtj9NdG38gPLhvjODg&ved=0CAQQ8wc4aQ&usg=AFQjCNGT47r4VGnTvf8J_TTtLYYBoR0TVQ

I heard that there were problems with Pendolino in Finland. Poland is not so cold, so maybe we will aviod problems.

ArtManDoo

July 5th, 2011, 03:35 PM

ER20 have been pulling trains in Latvia since spring.

Thanks, LDZ is getting better. Finally seems that relations between baltic rail companies are getting better.

Riga found nearly 2 billion Euros for streets, if needed they find some for new railway.
Where are those 2 billion EUR? They are badly needed for Riga streets!

Should be the new multilevel junctions they are building/built into Riga during recent years plus the new bridge over Daugava.

I am sure that very few % of total accidents happen on Via Baltica, most happen elsewhere and Rail Baltica won't help at this. No, of course, if it saves some lives, that's great benefit, sure!

I think that if I take no matter what part of road then I always get few % of accidents if to compare to total accidents from whole country. Rail baltica will bring some better safety level for sure.

My opinion is that Rail Baltica should be built so that it could be used for both fast 220km/h and regional trains as well.
So on the existing Tallinn - Pärnu track. From Pärnu the new directconnection is needed as far as Limbazi and from Limbazi alsoon the existing track to Riga. Of course the existing track bust be straightened to allow higher speeds.

Regarding the airport - if we get something else instead of Riga airport (which currently really gives lots of profits to Latvia, contrary to airBaltic), then I would forget about the pride. Now I see only that we should pay a lot for ruining the airline business in Riga and getting almost nothing instead.

Rail Baltica would work as feeder for RIX. At my point of view, stop in Tallinn airport is pointless. Who would use RB from Tallinn to Tallinn airport or from Riga to Tallinn airport? Noone. So Tallinn airport stop would be used only by Pärnu people so stop in Tallinn airport is pointless. Better to drag RB through Riga center and RIX and so RB would be feeder for RIX from Tallinn, Pärnu, Panevezis, Kaunas. Who would use RB for Riga - Brüssels or Riga - London or Riga - Frankfurt, maybe some but most would fly.

IMHO - the best could be: to find a way, how to make the railway line in Latvia more sensible.

Agree, as I already wrote trains need to pass Riga as they will do in Pärnu and Kaunas.

As an environmentalist (by education) I am all for train, versus cars and even more - air traffic. I know very well - train is environmentally better than road, train is a lot better than airplanes.

But - how the hell could all of this help, if I see a financially unfeasible rail project? You can tag many things as "future", "progressive" etc., but that does not change simple things - everything you do, should be viable and necessary.

I am sure it will bring some traffic away from via baltica what sees quite heavy traffic. At moment most people in baltic area do not know what modern rail traffic looks like and I am quite sure if modern rail traffic becomes available for baltic people then it finds a lot of use. Finns are building 200km/h track from Seinäjoki to Ylivieska, it means that railway is the right way. And of course baltic countries can build this line as they want. If baltic countries decide that RB will goe through Riga and RIX and Jelgava then nobody can refuse to build like this.

At moment is suxx to travel between Prag/Warsaw/Vilnius/Riga/Tallinn, RB will make it acceptable.

xkala1x

July 5th, 2011, 05:12 PM

For new line 1435mm Aecom recommends to purchase 16 ICE trains aka Sapsan

My opinion is that Rail Baltica should be built so that it could be used for both fast 220km/h and regional trains as well.
So on the existing Tallinn - Pärnu track. From Pärnu the new directconnection is needed as far as Limbazi and from Limbazi alsoon the existing track to Riga. Of course the existing track bust be straightened to allow higher speeds.

If decision will be made by Estonia Latvia and Lithuania in September 2011 then detail route studies shhould carried out

Riga Central Station- 2 European gauge tracks and platforms.

chornedsnorkack

July 5th, 2011, 06:51 PM

My opinion is that Rail Baltica should be built so that it could be used for both fast 220km/h and regional trains as well.
Why cannot fast trains be regional trains as well?

So on the existing Tallinn - Pärnu track. From Pärnu the new directconnection is needed as far as Limbazi and from Limbazi alsoon the existing track to Riga. Of course the existing track bust be straightened to allow higher speeds.

Notably, the dogleg through Lelle station. It was needed (Lelle-Pärnu was built as addition to Tallinn-Viljandi), but Lelle has not grown into a major cente. For some reasons I have not known, Rapla did, and stayed such even when the railway Rapla-Virtsu was shut.

For comparison, see the 220 km/h Oikorata - whose geometry fits 300 km/h, but the Finns are not comfortable with wear of freight trains on switches or something.

75 km new track. 2 stations in the first 30 km. Then 45 km without a single station. The old line Helsinki-Kerava has about 10 stations in 29 km, and it is 4 tracks to Kerava; old line Kerava-Riihimäki has similar number of around 10 stations in the next 30 km to Hyvinkää.

A logical move would be to reuse and upgrade the existing route Tallinn-Rapla (54,4 km) and make a short cut from Rapla towards Pärnu.

Rail Baltica would work as feeder for RIX. At my point of view, stop in Tallinn airport is pointless. Who would use RB from Tallinn to Tallinn airport or from Riga to Tallinn airport? Noone. So Tallinn airport stop would be used only by Pärnu people so stop in Tallinn airport is pointless.

A problem is that the central business district of Tallinn was built on the wrong side of old town. It might have been built next to the railway station into Kalamaja, Kassisaba and Pelgulinn, but for some reasons it was built around Pärnu and Tartu roads. Which means that reaching Balti jaam from much of Tallinn business districts means inconveniently getting through or around the old town. Ülemiste station is convenient to reach not just the airport, but much of the city.

Tin_Can

July 5th, 2011, 07:56 PM

Why cannot fast trains be regional trains as well?
Because regional trains make lots of stops and lose lots of time because of stops?

Basically,that's as good as asking why ICE doesn't stop at every German village..

For new line 1435mm Aecom recommends to purchase 16 ICE trains aka Sapsan

I guess you meant Siemens Velaro ;) Sapsans are Russian specific versions of it (meant for 1520mm gauge + other specific differences needed for running on Russian railways) Considering how custom made those trains are,then it would be safe to say that we would see smth like 'Siemens Velaro Baltic' on Rail Baltica :D

ArtManDoo

July 5th, 2011, 08:08 PM

Why cannot fast trains be regional trains as well?

Of course they can, like in many places around Europe. What I actually meant was I hardly doubt that there is need for two different alignments for route Tallinn - Pärnu - Riga(the partly existing one and a new one). Actually I would see Tallinn - Riga trains rather fast regionals than international. The same for Riga - Kaunas or Tallinn - Kaunas.

A logical move would be to reuse and upgrade the existing route Tallinn-Rapla (54,4 km) and make a short cut from Rapla towards Pärnu.

Good point!

A problem is that the central business district of Tallinn was built on the wrong side of old town. It might have been built next to the railway station into Kalamaja, Kassisaba and Pelgulinn, but for some reasons it was built around Pärnu and Tartu roads. Which means that reaching Balti jaam from much of Tallinn business districts means inconveniently getting through or around the old town. Ülemiste station is convenient to reach not just the airport, but much of the city.

My bad, I did not look at the map of alignment. I thought it will be a station just next to airport. If the station is Ülemiste then I find nothing wrong with it.

chornedsnorkack

July 5th, 2011, 10:23 PM

bebrs12

July 6th, 2011, 01:56 PM

A logical move would be to reuse and upgrade the existing route Tallinn-Rapla (54,4 km) and make a short cut from Rapla towards Pärnu.

Yes - it would be logical a move of RB would be in 1520mm. If it's in 1435mm then it's useless.
To use current RB idea with 1435mm gauge for travel between Riga and Tallinn one need to build 320km of track. Meanwhile using existing tracks we could start with 120km between Skulte and Parnu and later make shortcuts and upgrades on other sections.

Yes. And if they load on roll-on-roll-over ships anyway, why build Rail Baltica rather than send the same ships to Gdansk or Kapellskär?
Good question that RB fans somehow don't want to answer. I't because once you roll-on something on ship you can send it directly to Germany without dealing with railways.

chornedsnorkack

July 6th, 2011, 04:22 PM

Meanwhile using existing tracks we could start with 120km between Skulte and Parnu and later make shortcuts and upgrades on other sections.

Why this order?

Other sections should be upgraded first, otherwise new lines might connect nowhere to nowhere.

Around Riga, there seem to be 6 railways converging on Riga:
Ventspils-Tukums-Jurmala-Riga
Kaunas-Jelgava-Riga
Krustpils-Aizkraukle-Riga
Ergli-Riga
Lugaži-Sigulda-Riga
Rujiena-Skulte-Riga.

Correct?

Do the southern suburbs of Riga need an additional railway Bauska-Iecava-Riga, with fast trains, frequent stations and frequent service?

bebrs12

July 6th, 2011, 06:25 PM

Why this order?

Ok, it can be also in different order.

Do the southern suburbs of Riga need an additional railway Bauska-Iecava-Riga, with fast trains, frequent stations and frequent service?

Riga satellite towns has evolved because of railway not vice verse. But Iecava and Bauska are road-based, buses depart every 30minutes (and bit longer during off-peak hours). I don't think they could sustain frequent suburban rail service (especially at off-peak hours).

Tin_Can

July 6th, 2011, 08:43 PM

I can't help criticising the fact how self-centred and ignorant some of you are. Can't you honestly see things in bigger perspective or just bother reading through the AECOM study? It has rational & well reasoned conclusions and explains why all this is proposed and is best solution for all three Baltic countries.

1435mm Rail Baltica IS NOT some short term project,where you can instantly collect benefits from it. It would help industrial growth & exports in Baltics. Not everything is located close to harbours or sea and not everything is shippable by sea. Rail Baltica is meant for improving competitiveness of our countries. Maybe there are already some foreign companies looking for good locations for their factories,but are forced to choose from Central European countries,because our region simply can't compete with Poland,Czech,Hungary etc.? Have you thought about that?
1435mm Rail Baltica IS NOT meant going through every god forsaken village or stopping at every train station along the way. It's meant for getting from Baltic capitals to Europe as fast as possible,while still being cost efficient.
1435mm Rail Baltica IS radical change in current situation & management of railways in Baltic countries. Current situation where everything is aimed at freight traffic and passenger traffic is considered as nuisance,is not sustainable in long term. It would only result dropping passenger numbers and more closed railway lines. Proposed future with central 1435/1520mm line and regional 1520mm lines would alter EVERYTHING,as it would need good network of feeder lines (which,in fact,are already existing railways) and a lot denser train schedule.

I could carry on this forever as possibilities created by Rail Baltica & good railway connection with Central Europe are just enormous.

Now,a pinch of salt...apparently Latvians aren't only ones ignorant about Rail Baltica and what this project is all about:
Tartu mayor Urmas Kruuse: Rail Baltica has to pass through Tartu!

Source: Postimees.ee
http://i51.tinypic.com/4gupg.jpg

Tartu mayor has voiced his concern over AECOM's suggestion of directing 1435mm Rail Baltica line through Pärnu. He considers this 'absurd' and isn't happy about Tartu being left on regional railway line. According to him Tartu is not going to stand by and will actively force it's views that Rail Baltica must pass through Tartu ( :| )

Source: http://www.tartupostimees.ee/490300/urmas-kruuse-rail-baltica-peab-labima-tartut/

ArtManDoo

July 6th, 2011, 09:03 PM

The present scheduled traffic Tallinn-Rapla is 10-11 trains per day (depending on weekday). 8 are all stops (11 between Balti jaam and Rapla), 2-3 depending on the weekday are express trains (5 stops between, being Tallinn-Väike, Liiva, Saku, Kiisa, Kohila). The express trains take 0:55...0:57, then continue to Viljandi with nearly all stops beyond Rapla. Out of the 8 all stops trains, 3 terminate in Rapla, 1 continues to Lelle, 2 to Pärnu and 2 to Türi, taking 1:11 to 1:17 to Rapla.

How fast are the Z trains Helsinki-Lahti?

Also, considering that the railway station is some way to the east of Rapla centre along the Kohila-Järvakandi road, a new railway to Pärnu might diverge from the old already after Kohila and pass through the western suburbs of Rapla. Passing Järvakandi along the direction of Rapla-Järvakandi road, where should it go towards Pärnu?

At moment service level and speed for Tallinn - Rapla is outdated because of bad rolling stock and partly bad track. Also the timing of trains is partly appalling. For example morning commute trains arriving to Tallinn at 7:15, 8:07 and 9:08. Totally nonsense. Should be about 7:30, 8:20, 8:40. The track is single track but some timing can be maid better for sure. But even in such a bad conditions the line sees a lot of passengers. Almost all trains are at least 1/3 loaded.

Z trains between Helsinki and Lahti make max 160km/h as is the limit for sm4 and sm5. Or if you mean timetable then you can check www.vr.fi

About the routing I think that existing alignment to Rapla is the best one. From Rapla to Pärnu there should be a stop near Eidapere(connecting bus services to Vändra and Järvakandi) and a stop near Sindi might be considered. This is for semi fast trains or regional trains(as somebody likes). For local trains some other small stops must be built.

ArtManDoo

July 6th, 2011, 09:07 PM

Of course if there will be new alignment further from Rapla then the old one must be preserved to serve Türi/Viljandi branch what must be converted to 1435 also in case whole thing changes to 1435.

manrush

July 6th, 2011, 10:43 PM

Hopefully, Rail Baltica would eventually transform the Baltics into the second Benelux.

bleetz

July 6th, 2011, 11:27 PM

chornedsnorkack

July 7th, 2011, 09:03 AM

[LIST]
1435mm Rail Baltica IS NOT some short term project,where you can instantly collect benefits from it. It would help industrial growth & exports in Baltics. Not everything is located close to harbours or sea

Yes, but both Pärnu and Tallinn are. A major city of Estonia away from sea is Tartu, however.
[LIST]
1435mm Rail Baltica IS NOT meant going through every god forsaken village or stopping at every train station along the way. It's meant for getting from Baltic capitals to Europe as fast as possible,while still being cost efficient.
Going through every village makes the route longer and curvier and therefore slows down even express trains. However, stopping at every station only slows the trains that do stop there - express trains can pass a local train standing at a station at a full speed.

Rebasepoiss

July 7th, 2011, 06:10 PM

Please read the f**king study or just shut up! I'm too tired and lazy to write down arguments that are already in the study.

Jānis

July 7th, 2011, 08:56 PM

It would help industrial growth & exports in Baltics. Not everything is located close to harbours or sea and not everything is shippable by sea. Rail Baltica is meant for improving competitiveness of our countries. Maybe there are already some foreign companies looking for good locations for their factories,but are forced to choose from Central European countries,because our region simply can't compete with Poland,Czech,Hungary etc.? Have you thought about that?

Now, if we speak about manufacturing industry and therefore about cargo transportation, I can't see any benefits of RB. Noone will build 1435 mm industrial branch to every factory, so goods must be transported to intermodal terminals anyway, which most probably would be done by 1520 mm rolling stock. But this is what already is possible without RB, only difference is location of terminal.

1435mm Rail Baltica IS radical change in current situation & management of railways in Baltic countries. Current situation where everything is aimed at freight traffic and passenger traffic is considered as nuisance,is not sustainable in long term. It would only result dropping passenger numbers and more closed railway lines. Proposed future with central 1435/1520mm line and regional 1520mm lines would alter EVERYTHING,as it would need good network of feeder lines (which,in fact,are already existing railways) and a lot denser train schedule.

LDz once decided to prioritize most important lines. IMO it particularly was one of the reasons why Latvia lost almost 1/3 of railway network recently.

bleetz

July 7th, 2011, 09:49 PM

chornedsnorkack

July 7th, 2011, 11:06 PM

Look at the report:
http://www.mkm.ee/public/Rail_Baltica_Final_Report_Executive_Summary_Eestik_28.06.11.pdf
page 9
Quite a small scale map. The preferred red line follows the orange line existing railway Tallinn-Rapla, making the existing curves via Saku and Kohila.

Gatis

July 8th, 2011, 11:06 AM

We might get a project that is largely financed by the EU and that will connect us to the west, create jobs and open thousands of new opportunities
At the best (little likely) case we will get 25% from EU.
We are connected to the west already, OK, that would be one more option, but it won't change too much anyway.
There are cheaper, more efficient ways to create jobs. Rail Baltica will create a bunch of subsidized works, paid by other taxpayers. We have more than enough of such already.

Laurijs

July 8th, 2011, 01:08 PM

At the best (little likely) case we will get 25% from EU.
We are connected to the west already, OK, that would be one more option, but it won't change too much anyway.
There are cheaper, more efficient ways to create jobs. Rail Baltica will create a bunch of subsidized works, paid by other taxpayers. We have more than enough of such already.

I agree, but this type of projects need to be seen not only from the immediate financial and convenience standpoint but also from the region's future growth prospects, and of course the pride of each nation.

If in the world would be implemented only those projects which are beneficial and do not bear any losses, then such miracles of transport, such as the Eurotunnel would not been built!

ArtManDoo

July 8th, 2011, 05:13 PM

If in the world would be implemented only those projects which are beneficial and do not bear any losses, then such miracles of transport, such as the Eurotunnel would not been built!

By the way many people bring the Eurotunnel as bad example, not knowing all about it. Actually now Eurotunnel is doing at its best and brings even profit. Don't forget that in 1994 when opened the Eurostar service wasn't competitive. Now when HS1 is opened things have totally changed and Eurostar has about 80% of market share. The other thing that people usually don't know is about loading gauge. And this one is the worst one. The loading gauge in UK is smaller that on mainland Europe. It means that NOT EVEN SINGLE TRADITIONAL RAIL UNIT FROM MAINLAND EUROPE IS NOT COMPATIBLE TO RIDE INTO UK NETWORK, except on HS1. So special stock and facilities are needed for trains moving between mainland EU and UK. UK is trying to clear some parts of its network for bigger loading gauge but as you all know, it's not going to happen very fast.

Now consider those projects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6tschberg_Base_Tunnel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceneri_Base_Tunnel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel

Laurijs

July 8th, 2011, 05:53 PM

Better enjoy this one :)

_Ir_n3J5ABA

bebrs12

July 10th, 2011, 11:26 PM

I agree, but this type of projects need to be seen not only from the immediate financial and convenience standpoint but also from the region's future growth prospects, and of course the pride of each nation.

And even more importantly - from point of nation's cash flow. There is no point of freezing piles of cash in projects that's return will come after decades while budget lack money for vital needs (maintenance of existing infrastructure among others).

Gatis

July 11th, 2011, 01:32 AM

bleetz

July 11th, 2011, 02:37 AM

This isn't bling bling, this is an essential infrastructure project that would increase our countries' competitiveness, image and attractiveness for investment. You can't have 100% of EU GDP without having an infrastructure that would allow businesses to achieve that GDP.

Pansori

July 11th, 2011, 03:15 AM

It's good to look outside the bubble once in a while. It is scandalous that there is no fast railway line connecting the three Baltic capitals and other major cities yet. And it's been 20 years already as we can plan it ourselves! Of course there is an option of doing nothing because building anything at all is "freezing piles of cash". We're not talking or something we don't need. It's something we desperately need and the sooner we'll have it the better.

Rebasepoiss

July 11th, 2011, 11:56 AM

Well, I suppose that the implementation Rail Baltica might START sometimes, when our GDP per capita would be around 100% of EU medium. In such situation we will have spare money to waste for bling-bling.
Why are you so sure that we will ever reach the 100% mark? This would assume that the GDP of Baltic countries increases (way) faster than that of other EU countries. We are pretty much at the bottom now. To reach a 100% mark we would have to "overtake" several countries. With insufficient infrastructure it's quite difficult.

You can repave a narrow 2-lane country road every year for it to be as smooth as possible but that doesn't make it a motorway.

Alexriga

July 11th, 2011, 01:20 PM

We might get a project that is largely financed by the EU and that will connect us to the west, create jobs and open thousands of new opportunities, and there are still people that complain and look for negatives in that. In-fucking-credible :|

after 50 years nobody would need this railway. better spend this money for improving demography, kinder gardens, medicine and social care. most of Latvians have no money to use this useless project and many could buy ticket one way. it is total waste of money and has not a single chance to repay. in order to repay trains should go every 10-15 minutes. in reality 1-2 passenger + few freight trains would be enough. so it is not going to repay ever. if EU would pay 75-85% for it that could be a great deal but they offer something like 25%, it is nothing.

If in the world would be implemented only those projects which are beneficial and do not bear any losses, then such miracles of transport, such as the Eurotunnel would not been built!

You must be joking comparing connecting two 60 mil country with train frequency somewhere near 1 train every 10 minutes with Baltics where 1 train per day may be enough :D

Rebasepoiss

July 11th, 2011, 02:02 PM

after 50 years nobody would need this railway. better spend this money for improving demography, kinder gardens, medicine and social care.

First of all, the amount of goods per person will most likely keep rising in the coming decades. So even though the populations of Baltic countries will decrease(and then stabilise), there will still be demand for both freight and passenger rail. What's more, this project has a far more direct impact on the growth of the economy than building new kindergartens. Let's not mix up transportation with social services.
most of Latvians have no money to use this useless project and many could buy ticket one way.

You don't have money for a train ticket but you do have money for airplane tickets or as taxpayers, for the losses of Air Baltic?
Besides, most of the revenue would come from freight trains anyway...

it is total waste of money and has not a single chance to repay.

Again, just read the study, please!

xkala1x

July 13th, 2011, 01:18 PM

Here it is in Latvian language:
http://www.sam.gov.lv/images/modules/items/PDF/item_3187_Rail_Baltica_Final_Report_Executive_Summary_31_05_11_FINAL_v2_LV.pdf

bebrs12

July 15th, 2011, 12:59 PM

Pasažieru vilciens is considering introduction of service classes in the trains. Article in Latvian: http://bizness.delfi.lv/uznemumi/latvijas-vilcienos-varetu-ieviest-klasu-sistemu.d?id=39593007

Would be nice if they end their race to bottom and focus on costumers that can pay.

Tin_Can

July 16th, 2011, 01:28 AM

Lithuania supports 1435mm Rail Baltica project.

Siim Kallas,EU Commissioner for Transport and Vice-president of the Commission,met with Lithuanian president Dalia Grybauskaitė and minister of transport Eligijus Masiulis. Both Lithuanian government official expressed their full support to 1435mm Rail Baltica project.

Lithuanian minister of transport Eligijus Masiulis believes that European Comission pays more attention to Rail Baltica project,because in some European countries railway construction is rather passive. Rail Baltica is thought to be one strategic project which will help to integrate Baltic & Western European railway networks.

Lithuanian minister of transport Eligijus Masiulis:
"Lithuania has made most progress in the project. Construction of first stage of European width railways (1435mm) between Mockava and Śeśtokai is partially almost completed. Planning is in progress on other sections all the way to Kaunas "

"Despite that,we think that some countries participating in the project are rather passive about all it. Obviously it's caused by lack of money. We believe that by EU commission coordination this process could be lot more active. 1435mm railway from Tallinn to Warsaw should be built as fast as possible. And this should be taken into consideration,when supplying funding to transportation infrastructure."
Lithuania is also interested of feeder lines connecting to main Rail Baltica line. This would help to get more support to projects such as Vilnius-Minsk railway line electrification. Lithuanian Ministry of Transport and Communications future plans vision express trains running between Vilnius & Minsk.

Lithuanian president Dalia Grybauskaitė:
Connectivity with European Union's transportation system is priority for Lithuania. In transportation sector,as in energy sector,Lithuania and other Baltic countries cannot stand isolated. We therefore have strong expectations that strategically important projects have full support from Europe"

Sources: http://majandus.delfi.ee/news/uudised/leedu-transpordiminister-avaldab-survet-rail-baltica-ehitamiseks.d?id=49641809
http://www.logistikauudised.ee/article/2011/7/15/kallas-leedu-toetab-rail-baltical-euroopa-roopmelaiust

Pansori

July 16th, 2011, 02:07 AM

It's about time to start fu*kin' building it rather than express "support". At this pace we'll never have it.

Tin_Can

July 16th, 2011, 02:21 AM

Well,atleast you have 1435mm sections already U/C. We,on the other hand,have to wait for years before we can start any kind of construction because we are separated from you by that 'passive country involved in the project' :D

EDIT: :lol: @ 'Latvia prefers horsecarts'-tag.

Pansori

July 16th, 2011, 02:53 AM

No offence to our Latvian brothers but sometimes I really think that it would be more practical for Lithuania to have Estonia as its direct neighbor instead of Latvia. At least we'd get stuff done (such as Rail Baltica). :|

chornedsnorkack

July 16th, 2011, 11:46 AM

Does building 200+ km/h, 1435 mm railway through Pärnu mean the 1520 mm railway through Tartu should be abandoned?

The obvious thing Estonia can do while waiting for the 1435 mm railway to get through Latvia is upgrade the 1520 mm railway via Tartu. It is still just 120 km/h. How about starting an upgrade to 160 km/h or 200 km/h between Tallinn and Valga?

Sanchous

July 16th, 2011, 12:52 PM

Pansori

July 16th, 2011, 02:21 PM

TinCan, this news will kill you: CEO of LDZ mentioned in the interview, that there is no reason to bulid 1435mm Rail Baltica. There is planned 1520mm line upgrade only.
Some numbers from interview: only 5% of cargo are carried in North-South direction. Other 95% comes from East. So it's more beneficial to upgrade East-West corridor rather than Rail Baltica for Lativia. =)

I think it would be even more "beneficial" to join the CIS, abandon the EU and NATO and perhaps join the customs union with Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus?

Is that LDZ guy one of those types who has been the CEO or been in the system for the past 40 years and gained his core nowledge and experience in the USSR days? Lithuanian railways is an example of such company in Lithuania (it is still run by incompetent assholes who run the company ineffectively). However they are not daring to stick their noses into Rail Baltica or express such "opinions" because under the current government they would probably loose their seats immediately for such language.

Seriously, what's up with Latvia? Sometimes I really wonder who is running the show there: Riga or Kremlin.

Tin_Can

July 16th, 2011, 05:12 PM

TinCan, this news will kill you: CEO of LDZ mentioned in the interview, that there is no reason to bulid 1435mm Rail Baltica. There is planned 1520mm line upgrade only.
Some numbers from interview: only 5% of cargo are carried in North-South direction. Other 95% comes from East. So it's more beneficial to upgrade East-West corridor rather than Rail Baltica for Lativia. =)

That's like catch-22 situation - construction of Rail Baltica project is thought to be useless because there isn't any major traffic flow on North-South direction,but there isn't any traffic flow on North-South direction because there isn't any Rail Baltica built :|

It ain't the biggest concern what some CEO might think. It's important what politicians and decision making people think. I think the biggest risk right now for Rail Baltica right now is falling victim to populist politicians who will feed the general public biased ideas that 1435mm Rail Baltica is 'waste of money'. Risk for such action is rather low in both Estonia & Lithuania,but high in Latvia which is still affected by economic depression.

Alexriga

July 16th, 2011, 08:46 PM

That's like catch-22 situation - construction of Rail Baltica project is thought to be useless because there isn't any major traffic flow on North-South direction,but there isn't any traffic flow on North-South direction because there isn't any Rail Baltica built :|

It ain't the biggest concern what some CEO might think. It's important what politicians and decision making people think. I think the biggest risk right now for Rail Baltica right now is falling victim to populist politicians who will feed the general public biased ideas that 1435mm Rail Baltica is 'waste of money'. Risk for such action is rather low in both Estonia & Lithuania,but high in Latvia which is still affected by economic depression.

freight can be transported by road too. and ships. still there is almost no flow, so called via baltica is empty near borders. you need this project you finance it. if I go to berlin I fly, I'd prefer better suburban railway to vecaki which i use every week than some mystical train which i might use once per year or less but be piss happy just because of it existence. :cheers:

whatever...

July 16th, 2011, 11:02 PM

freight can be transported by road too. and ships. still there is almost no flow, so called via baltica is empty near borders. you need this project you finance it. if I go to berlin I fly, I'd prefer better suburban railway to vecaki which i use every week than some mystical train which i might use once per year or less but be piss happy just because of it existence. :cheers:

That might be so in Latvia, but in Lithuania, especially the 100km Kaunas-Polish border stretch, is a major transport artery with 10-15k cars per day traffic intensity. It is no coincidence that project is now being prepared for reconstruction of that road into a proper 2x2 highway.

Traffic intensity on Kaunas-Panevezys stretch is also fairly high and it is only close to Latvian border that it starts to recede, but only a little.

felar

July 17th, 2011, 02:19 AM

you need this project you finance it.

This kind of strategy will take us nowhere.

Well, I suppose that the implementation Rail Baltica might START sometimes, when our GDP per capita would be around 100% of EU medium. In such situation we will have spare money to waste for bling-bling.

I get that Latvia's finances are not in the best shape. But you have to realize this is only temporary. It's happened many times before and there is no reason this situation shouldn't return to normal again this time. In fact it's a good opportunity to use EU money properly, boost economy and build stuff cheaper. Unless of course you resist it intentionally like that and choose stagnation instead of development. Cause with this kind of attitude Latvia might soon become a shithole (excuse my language) between EE and LT with an airport in the middle.

And this does not stop with Rail Baltica. I'm also talking about the recent Latvia's stunt regarding NPP project. I head that Latvia's planning to abandon it as well, because it's oh so poor. I'm sure mother Russia will give you everything you need if you kiss its ass just a little more. And you can keep raising your "GDP per capita to 100% EU" by selling off what's left of Latvia's territories to russian oligarchs or whatever, just keep in mind that it might take a lot longer than you think if you keep going like this.

freight can be transported by road too

Have you been outside Riga recently? And I don't mean Jurmala. You can lose a wheel on some of those roads and some aren't even paved yet. I'm glad that latvians haven't given up on plans to overhaul their road system at least.

still there is almost no flow, so called via baltica is empty near borders.

Last time I checked the tragic section A7 of Via Baltica will remain a 1x1 road and does not fall into Latvia's grand road reconstruction plan (http://www.lvceli.lv/LV/PC/PageImages/Original/1473.jpg), although it already has load of over 10k cars per day. Is Latvia planning to close its southern border altogether or something?

I truly hope that latvian politicians do not share the same views as the latvian guys in this forum. And to those that don't, I'm sorry. But looking at current latvian president and his recent announcement that he's gonna communicate russian with the local russians I'm starting to really doubt about Latvia's geopolitical direction. Like Pansori said, why not join CIS then.

Jānis

July 17th, 2011, 01:38 PM

For RB supporters I can only suggest to get a life. Again, can anybody explain me, why there already aren't cargo transportation in north-south direction, if existing infrastructure is even more suitable for it and if it's so perspective direction as you all say? Or, why there's no (zero, none, 0) passenger trains linking our capitals right now (although slow, ticket price would be 2-3 times lower than in RB trains), if there's enough people to have EMU every 2 hours in near future (though, I believe in possibility to find a demand for couple trains at the moment)?

And why so many people seeing black and white? The fact our officials doesn't support useless and shockingly expensive project by EU permanently means that Latvia is commie-runned western-hating Russian province? Seriously. :lol::lol::lol:

I'd prefer better suburban railway to vecaki which i use every week than some mystical train which i might use once per year or less but be piss happy just because of it existence.

So true. Existing network could be upgraded maybe even to European level with amount of investments RB need.

felar

July 17th, 2011, 02:13 PM

Or, why there's no (zero, none, 0) passenger trains linking our capitals right now (although slow, ticket price would be 2-3 times lower than in RB trains), if there's enough people to have EMU every 2 hours in near future (though, I believe in possibility to find a demand for couple trains at the moment)?

There are 8 daily buses between Vilnius and Riga plus 2 daily between Kaunas and Riga. There's also 7 daily flights between the capitals and 1 from Kaunas. Not mentioning thousands of people choosing to travel this route by car. You are saying there's no market for a passenger train which would be faster, more comfortable and no more expensive than flying or riding a bus?

There are no trains right now because there is no Rail Baltica. Current trains and infrastructure is no longer competitive in terms of speed and comfort so the price doesn't really matter.

ArtManDoo

July 17th, 2011, 02:32 PM

freight can be transported by road too. and ships. still there is almost no flow, so called via baltica is empty near borders. you need this project you finance it. if I go to berlin I fly, I'd prefer better suburban railway to vecaki which i use every week than some mystical train which i might use once per year or less but be piss happy just because of it existence. :cheers:

You wanna say that you are not interested in visiting Estonia or Lithuania. I find it very bad that Baltic people only waste their time for fight or compete on each others. Baltic area need's RB more than ever to make relationships lot's better and more cooperation. That cooperation part is urgently needed. RB makes baltic better and stronger. Estonians and Lithuanians wanna fly from RIX, and lot's of more. Please think out of the box. Railway is the transportation for future. The maintenance and rebuilding of railway is at least 10 times cheaper per 1 ton/km than for road.

ArtManDoo

July 17th, 2011, 02:49 PM

For RB supporters I can only suggest to get a life. Again, can anybody explain me, why there already aren't cargo transportation in north-south direction, if existing infrastructure is even more suitable for it and if it's so perspective direction as you all say? Or, why there's no (zero, none, 0) passenger trains linking our capitals right now (although slow, ticket price would be 2-3 times lower than in RB trains), if there's enough people to have EMU every 2 hours in near future (though, I believe in possibility to find a demand for couple trains at the moment)?

Modern railways is the life. The fastest and safest. No other way of transportation can give more than 100km/h transport as cheaply and safely and sustainably than railway does it. Baltic area needs good cycleways and modern rail service.

Go to Marijampole and start to count passing trucks. You even can't kill the disturbing mosquitos without losing some trucks to count.

Baltic passenger rail transport is still in soviet time with some exceptions. And Baltic politicians are comparing and competing to each others as some punch of dummies. In such of situation there is no wonder that there are even no Vilnius - Riga train.

xkala1x

July 17th, 2011, 03:12 PM

AECOM`s Rail Baltica Feasibility study in Latvian language

http://www.sam.gov.lv/images/modules...INAL_v2_LV.pdf

xkala1x

July 17th, 2011, 03:20 PM

The new train tender in Latvia smells (like a skunks piss) for corruption...

bleetz

July 17th, 2011, 03:20 PM

If the Latvians don't want RB then it sucks for Estonia but Lithuania doesn't really lose as much. We should just concentrate on the Kaunas - Polish border section and see where that takes us. I am absolutely positive that once that section is in full use, it will significantly affect the economy and the image of the country.

Jānis

July 17th, 2011, 03:26 PM

There are 8 daily buses between Vilnius and Riga plus 2 daily between Kaunas and Riga. There's also 7 daily flights between the capitals and 1 from Kaunas. Not mentioning thousands of people choosing to travel this route by car. You are saying there's no market for a passenger train which would be faster, more comfortable and no more expensive than flying or riding a bus?

All together max. ~1000 passengers per day. Two trains I've mentioned before would be enough. By the way, RB wouldn't go even near Vilnius.

Baltic area needs good cycleways and modern rail service.

So let's upgrade existing one with real passengers and real freights.

Go to Marijampole and start to count passing trucks. You even can't kill the disturbing mosquitos without losing some trucks to count.

Ok, you're right. I was thinking about raw goods such as coal and oil. But- why the hell we need milliards of euros worth 1435 mm railroad if these trailers and containers could be placed on existing railroad's platforms and transported as well. It is just matter of management.

Tin_Can

July 17th, 2011, 03:39 PM

So let's upgrade existing one with real passengers and real freights.

Let's connect Latvia to the Motherland! :| Hourly rapid trains to Moscow & back! Да здравствует дружба между народами и прогресса! Ура!!!

P.s - Is it really that hard to read through the Aecom study?

The new train tender in Latvia smells (like a skunks piss) for corruption...
No surprise that Stadler quit and complained to EU. The big question is - is there ANY possibility that RVR will not win it?
If the Latvians don't want RB then it sucks for Estonia but Lithuania doesn't really lose as much. We should just concentrate on the Kaunas - Polish border section and see where that takes us. I am absolutely positive that once that section is in full use, it will significantly affect the economy and the image of the country.
If 1435mm Rail Baltica is built (Lithuanian section of it),which route gets upgraded to 1435mm next? Is there a possibility that Kaunas-Vilnius line will be upgraded to 1435mm in the future?

Pansori

July 17th, 2011, 03:44 PM

P.s - Is it really that hard to read through the Aecom study?

Sorry for being a lazy ass but could you post me a link tot that study. I'd like to read it.

Tin_Can

July 17th, 2011, 03:51 PM

Sorry for being a lazy ass but could you post me a link tot that study. I'd like to read it.

EDIT: F***! English version of the study is no longer available :(

Pansori

July 17th, 2011, 03:57 PM

EDIT: F***! English version of the study is no longer available :(

Don't tell me you didn't save the pdf and now not gonna upload it somewhere? :bash:

Jānis

July 17th, 2011, 03:59 PM

Let's connect Latvia to the Motherland! Hourly rapid trains to Moscow & back! Да здравствует дружба между народами и прогресса! Ура!!!

Lame.

And why so many people seeing black and white? The fact our officials doesn't support useless and shockingly expensive project by EU permanently means that Latvia is commie-runned western-hating Russian province? Seriously. :lol::lol::lol:

Actually I'm kinda talking about LATVIAN railways and it's passenger service to be improved. Read carefully!

P.s - Is it really that hard to read through the Aecom study?

I have read it as soon it was published. Sorry for not believing in every single written word. Continuing with Russian quotes: "Меньше читаете советских газет!"

Pansori

July 17th, 2011, 04:07 PM

Railways have always been and still are the tools and strings for political influence. It is shocking that some of us here are unable to understand that. Not that it's bad to be linked with Russia (for business reasons) but thinking that not having a 200km/h+ standard gauge link with EU (and between each other) is a good thing is just pathetic.

Jānis

July 17th, 2011, 04:18 PM

Railways have always been and still are the tools and strings for political influence.

That's right! It's the whole point of RB. Political tool. Am I the only one who thinks it's costs too much for one? I'm totally fine with standart gauge line idea, but it is way too expensive for me as a taxpayer.

Tin_Can

July 17th, 2011, 04:41 PM

Even when more than 50% of the money would come from EU funds and cost to ordinary taxpayers would be spread over very long time period?

Lame.
No,not really. Well..the idea & presentation was lame :D,but it's pretty much true that Latvia focuses on railway connection with Russia. There's nothing bad with it,but how can one focus on creating good connection to only one neighbour (Russia) and say that connection to other neighbours (Estonia & Lithuania) is not useful?
Continuing with Russian quotes: "Меньше читаете советских газет!"
Meh. I read Latvian business news,not Soviet newspapers.

Pansori

July 17th, 2011, 05:12 PM

That's right! It's the whole point of RB. Political tool. Am I the only one who thinks it's costs too much for one? I'm totally fine with standart gauge line idea, but it is way too expensive for me as a taxpayer.

As it was said before, we need to think outside the box.

Yes, it is expensive. But will that money leave the country? Probably not. Yes it will leave the country upon paying for HSR trainsets (most probably to Germany, or maybe China), some other works relating to HSR technology which we don't have the expertise of. However the vast majority of work will be done by local companies and the money will go to them and their employees. It is a good way to stimulate the economic activity in all three Baltic countries. I'm pretty sure there won't be more than the EU share of financing that will leave our economies. Not to mention all other benefits that have been mentioned in this thread.

Jānis

July 17th, 2011, 06:31 PM

No,not really. Well..the idea & presentation was lame ,but it's pretty much true that Latvia focuses on railway connection with Russia. There's nothing bad with it,but how can one focus on creating good connection to only one neighbour (Russia) and say that connection to other neighbours (Estonia & Lithuania) is not useful?

I see Your point and particularly agree. Still, Latvia focuses on connection wherever more than 1 million t of freight can be transported, not depending of direction. And that's exactly what I'm afraid of- when RB construction will begin, rest of network could become unattended.

Pro rail baltica

July 18th, 2011, 08:17 AM

Can someone update my knowledge on following things:

* When first CAF trains are estimated to be delievered to Latvia?
http://www.rvr.lv/lv/2.html

http://bizness.delfi.lv/uznemumi/rvr-tikam-piespiesti-izstaties-no-pasazieru-vilciena-rikota-konkursa.d?id=39317367

* When Latvia start modernisation of North-South railway?
-> There has been news that budget is already done deal.

* When Latvia start modernisation of East-West railway?
-> There has been news that some companies wont the construction competition.

Jānis

July 18th, 2011, 02:10 PM

Can someone update my knowledge on following things:

* When first CAF trains are estimated to be delievered to Latvia?
http://www.rvr.lv/lv/2.html

First train must be ready by the end of 2012. All the rest- till 2015. But maybe information is old.

http://bizness.delfi.lv/uznemumi/rvr....d?id=39317367

* When Latvia start modernisation of North-South railway?
-> There has been news that budget is already done deal.

* When Latvia start modernisation of East-West railway?
-> There has been news that some companies wont the construction competition.

Both is being in process all the time.

xkala1x

July 18th, 2011, 06:49 PM

EDIT: F***! English version of the study is no longer available :(

Tehnilise Järelevalve Amet lubas enda kodulehele ülesse laadida...

Alexriga

July 18th, 2011, 10:22 PM

You wanna say that you are not interested in visiting Estonia or Lithuania.

I visited Tallinn more than 9 times and Vilnius 5 times or something. Sure I will go more but I don't need billion expensive train for it. I could use casual train of 160 km/h which would go a bit faster than bus. As fir my life Riga Sigulda suburban train plays more important life for me, it makes 55km in 1:15h it is ridiculous with so few stops.

If the Latvians don't want RB then it sucks for Estonia but Lithuania doesn't really lose as much. We should just concentrate on the Kaunas - Polish border section and see where that takes us. I am absolutely positive that once that section is in full use, it will significantly affect the economy and the image of the country.

you only dream about freight terminal to transport stuff from east to the west using that branch. you even didn't mention border-Vilnius section, no passengers there for 2 trains I guess.

CrazySerb

July 19th, 2011, 02:48 AM

Pansori

July 19th, 2011, 02:59 AM

OT:

First Metrovagonmash RA-2, specially redesigned for Serbia, was presented today in Moscow to Serbian Rail execs. Twelve have been ordered for now, with potential for 30-40 more, should these prove reliable.

I know that its used in Lithuania - so it would be good to hear some first-hand experiences with it.

I think you asked this question a while ago, didn't you? ;)

Seemingly there pretty much is a consensus in Lithuania that RA-2 is perhaps one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) failures of the Lithuanian Railways once it comes to puchases of rolling stock. Thank god they bought only a few. The latest buys of Lithuanian Railways are Polish PESA railbuses, (which essentially serve the same purpose and same routes as the RA-2, but are more reliable andgenerally better machines. I guess some more experienced railfans could comment on that though.

Such decision by the Litrail a few years back may be understandable because Lithuania uses same track gauge as Russia 1520mm which makes it somewhat complicated to get decent rolling stock for a good price. But isn't Serbia using 1435mm gauge? This gives more then plenty of great options without extra costs. Such "purchase" by Serbia is very strange at the very least.

Tin_Can

July 19th, 2011, 03:22 AM

Such decision by the Litrail a few years back may be understandable because Lithuania uses same track gauge as Russia 1520mm which makes it somewhat complicated to get decent rolling stock for a good price.
Only when buying few trains at a time. Lithuania should focus on one or two large passenger train procurements,instead of buy random trains in small numbers. This gives slightly better deals. Most trains can be easily converted to both 1435mm & 1520mm track gauges,so this definitely shouldn't be a problem,when purchasing new trains.
Such "purchase" by Serbia is very strange at the very least.
Not really. Russia & Serbia have quite close,friendly relations and Serbs probably got bargain deal on those RA-2's.

Btw,how well built RA-2's are? Do they have breakdowns?
Russian railway industry is definitely improving,but I'm still suspecting that they haven't rooted out that Soviet style workmanship & work quality.

Pansori

July 19th, 2011, 03:49 AM

Not really. Russia & Serbia have quite close,friendly relations and Serbs probably got bargain deal on those RA-2's.

Depends on what you call a good deal. In instant monetary terms, maybe. In terms of reliability, quality and comfort, probably not.

Belarus, on the other hand, despite economic difficulties and being a political black hole got some Stadler Flirts. This is certainly a better deal for Belarus and those Belarusians who will be riding those nice trains... now these are sexy trains.

GS0Ek-hqy6s

CrazySerb

July 19th, 2011, 04:13 AM

Tin_Can

July 19th, 2011, 05:09 AM

RVR made trains were really good when they were introduced,often being as good or even better than Western made contemporaries,but today almost all of them are morally & technically outdated. Safety is the biggest problem - is case of train crash RVR trains tend to fold up as they are not rigid. In case of accidents this structural problem could badly injure of even kill passengers (and tbh,it has done that)
Belarus, on the other hand, despite economic difficulties and being a political black hole got some Stadler Flirts. This is certainly a better deal for Belarus and those Belarusians who will be riding those nice trains... now these are sexy trains.

GS0Ek-hqy6s
Yeah,Belarus has recently made surprisingly good decisions - like buying Stadler Flirts & BCG-1 locomotives (based on Chinese made HXD2),upgrading their ChME-3 shunters etc.

Btw,if anyone is interested,then here's a video of Belarussian Stadler Flirt assembly > http://et-ee.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=197885700249891
Afaik,right now Stadler factory produces Flirts for Finnish & Belarussian railways and is going to start (or already has started) assembly of Flirts meant for Estonia.

Pro rail baltica

July 19th, 2011, 08:30 AM

http://news.belta.by/en/news/econom?id=644856

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belkommunmash

http://bkm.by/?id_lang=3&id_page=1

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Belkommunmash/108616982496965

Swiss Stadler eyeing joint venture with Belkommunmash 18.07.2011 19:15

MINSK, 18 July (BelTA) – The Swiss company Stadler has suggested setting up a joint venture to the Belarusian mechanical engineering company Belkommunmash, representatives of the Belarusian company told BelTA.

Belarus bought several trains for city railway commuting abroad a while ago. Speaking about making such products, representatives of Belkommunmash said that they were considering an official proposal of Stadler to set up a joint venture. The proposal opens up a very powerful part of the market for Belkommunmash. Uniting efforts with Stadler, Belkommunmash will get global positioning.

Speaking about the possibility of manufacturing cars in Belarus, Belkommunmash representatives said that the technical part was easily doable. Advanced passenger vehicles, which are much more complex than cars, are manufactured in Belarus.

Speaking about working in conditions of the Customs Union and the Single Economic Space, the source said that it would give extra advantages to the export-oriented company. Belkommunmash has good experience of working together with major Russian companies and the company sees good prospects in this area. Belkommunmash is also ready to promote relations with the Kazakh side.

Pro rail baltica

July 19th, 2011, 09:43 AM

[QUOTE=Pansori;81707456]This is certainly a better deal for Belarus and those Belarusians who will be riding those nice trains... now these are sexy trains.

QUOTE]

Talking about sex in the train. What is your favourite position?

See this video in part 1:20. http://et-ee.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=197885700249891

I have noticed that this kind of postions work best in Stadler flirt toilet

->

http://www.justdesktopwallpapers.com/images/celebrities/carmenelectra/carmen_electra_from_behind_1280x1024.jpg

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3t8u5AOJX1qah2gqo1_400.jpg

One leg on closed toilet seat, one leg standing gives good thrust posibilities and nice acceleration possibilities. HOT DAMN! Jihaa! I like to ride new trains ;).

What is others favourite penetration point in train (FPP) by the way?

xkala1x

July 19th, 2011, 10:10 AM

RVR made trains were really good when they were introduced,often being as good or even better than Western made contemporaries,but today almost all of them are morally & technically outdated. Safety is the biggest problem - is case of train crash RVR trains tend to fold up as they are not rigid. In case of accidents this structural problem could badly injure of even kill passengers (and tbh,it has done that)

Yeah,Belarus has recently made surprisingly good decisions - like buying Stadler Flirts & BCG-1 locomotives (based on Chinese made HXD2),upgrading their ChME-3 shunters etc.

Btw,if anyone is interested,then here's a video of Belarussian Stadler Flirt assembly > http://et-ee.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=197885700249891
Afaik,right now Stadler factory produces Flirts for Finnish & Belarussian railways and is going to start (or already has started) assembly of Flirts meant for Estonia.

Estonian FLIRT train production starts @ spring 2012

Pansori

July 19th, 2011, 12:15 PM

Pro rail baltica, are you allright? :lol:

Pro rail baltica

July 19th, 2011, 01:18 PM

Pro rail baltica, are you allright? :lol:

No. I cannot wait anymore to do some Flirt travelling in Estonia and Belarus :ohno:

Check out this toilet! REALLY

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4005/4680405266_8fabcb99b7_z.jpg

Here is some pre-taste pic of what you can do in FLIRT toilet (Polish dacing and rod driving) The metal Poles are NOT to be mistaken as just some stuff fir handicaps!

->

http://www.britneyspearspicturesbritneyspears.com/britney-spears-picture-pole-dancing-wax-museum-MulaN.jpg

void0

July 19th, 2011, 03:48 PM

Russian railway industry is definitely improving,but I'm still suspecting that they haven't rooted out that Soviet style workmanship & work quality.

Here are assembling lines of Metrovagonmash - http://metroblog.ru/post/3603/

Metrovagonmash is subsidiary of Transmashholding (Alstom owns a share of it).
You can see here different rail stuff they are producing: http://www.transmashholding.ru/en/products/

Alexriga

July 19th, 2011, 04:43 PM

Depends on what you call a good deal. In instant monetary terms, maybe. In terms of reliability, quality and comfort, probably not.

Belarus, on the other hand, despite economic difficulties and being a political black hole got some Stadler Flirts. This is certainly a better deal for Belarus and those Belarusians who will be riding those nice trains... now these are sexy trains.

GS0Ek-hqy6s

what so good about ugly stadler trains? they really remind me Д1 diesel train in design, I used them also and I can hardly call them comfortable. bombardier or those swiss and even italian trains are by far better. in Italia trains are cheap, quiet fast and have by far more comfortable chairs, I don't know the name of producer. :banana: the cheapest train was some 10,50 euro on rome-napoli line.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Diesel-multi-train_D1.jpg/800px-Diesel-multi-train_D1.jpg
stadler looks pretty similar to me, especially those ugly electrical trains which usually tend to be more elegant.

chornedsnorkack

July 19th, 2011, 07:18 PM

If Rail Baltica runs at night anyway (freight trains), shall it also carry sleeper trains (whether at full speed or at the speed of freight trains)?

Wover

July 19th, 2011, 08:07 PM

in Italia trains are cheap, quiet fast and have by far more comfortable chairs, I don't know the name of producer. :banana: the cheapest train was some 10,50 euro on rome-napoli line.

You're probably talking about the ETR500's ("AV" for Alta Velocita or high-speed). They were built by AnsaldoBreda, the same guys that had enormous problems with the Danish order for trains (they seriously fucked up there) and the Amsterdam - Brussels semi-highspeed (250kph) trains which should have been running for 2 years already, but people are giving up hope that they will ever actually run on commercial service.

void0

July 19th, 2011, 08:36 PM

Seemingly there pretty much is a consensus in Lithuania that RA-2 is perhaps one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) failures of the Lithuanian Railways once it comes to puchases of rolling stock.
Biggest failure? Thats really pathetic :)

xkala1x

July 19th, 2011, 08:58 PM

RA-2 -rohkem remontida ,vähem sõita...

bebrs12

July 19th, 2011, 09:09 PM

If Rail Baltica runs at night anyway (freight trains), shall it also carry sleeper trains (whether at full speed or at the speed of freight trains)?

Of course it would be possible. But there is absolutely no technical barrier to do so within Baltics already now, so only Poland-Baltics market would benefit from RB.

Pansori

July 20th, 2011, 01:03 AM

Biggest failure? Thats really pathetic :)

In recent times perhaps. It's hard to tell what was failure or success in USSR days. But there was another failure: TEP70BS. They just keep breaking down which was the reason ancient TEP60's were not withdrawn from service for so long (I think one is still operating?).

Pro rail baltica

July 20th, 2011, 09:07 AM

Good news from Poland! One can only admire the dedication of Poland for the Rail Baltica project. They have already build part of Rail Baltica on their side. I am happy to see that the EU money is well spent at least once! I am very happy as EU NET TAX PAYER to be part of this kind of projects!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHk2HSzXry0

Above is a video of RB from Poland.

pzlotnik

July 20th, 2011, 02:00 PM

Poland isn`t building it`s part of RB - it`s on early planning stage. The first real construction works are scheduled for period 2020 - 2030. :).

All infrastructural projects on PL / LT border were postponed for unknown future.

We are rather developing our rail connections with western and southern neighbours, not eastern.

I thing sooner Belarus will enter EU, than Poland builds it`s RB part.
Rail connection Poland / Belarus is in good condition.

Pro rail baltica

July 20th, 2011, 02:32 PM

pzlotnik

July 20th, 2011, 03:31 PM

Are you sure? Did you see above youtube video? It surely seems that Poland have been building at least someting on its eastern border. I quess it is partly EU funded and with Polish design?

Really under this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHk2HSzXry0 ?

Modernisation of Warsaw - Gdansk Railway E65, much more important than Rail Baltica for Poland now. In 2014 after modernisation just ordered Pendolino trains will be going with 200 km / h speed on this route.

Alstom to supply and maintain a fleet of 20 New Pendolino trains for PKP Intercity

30/05/2011

The Polish operator PKP Intercity, in charge of long distance passenger transport, has awarded Alstom a contract worth €665 million1 to supply 20 high speed trains, their full maintenance up to 17 years and the construction of a new maintenance depot. The first trains are scheduled for delivery in 2014.

PKP Intercity will operate the trains on existing routes in Poland: Warsaw-Gdansk-Gdynia; Warsaw-Krakow; Warsaw-Katowice. The travel time will be significantly shortened. The trainsets will travel between Warsaw and Gdansk in 2.5 hours, and between Warsaw and Krakow or Warsaw and Katowice in slightly more than 2 hours.

The trainsets of 7 cars each will be based on Alstom’s standard New Pendolino platform. In line with the customer’s specifications, they will not integrate the tilting system. With a maximum speed of 250 km/h:cheers:, they will be able to carry up to 402 passengers. The trains will be manufactured at Alstom’s Savigliano site in Italy, where Pendolino trains have been manufactured for more than 30 years.

As well as meeting the latest interoperability European standards (ERTMS), the trainsets for PKP Intercity will be equipped with signalling systems required to operate not only in Poland but also in Austria, Czech Republic and Germany. (today Wrasaw Vienna train journey takes 7h 30 min, Warsaw Prague train journey takes 8 h, if using Pendolino journey should be shortened to 6 h).

In addition to rolling stock, Alstom will supply full maintenance of the trains up to 17 years in a new depot of 12.000m² which will be built in Warsaw. Some 100 people dedicated to commissioning, general warranty and full maintenance of the trains will work there.

“We are very happy to provide PKP Intercity with a “state of the art” high speed train, at its 4th generation. It is a service-proven train, therefore reliable and readily available “, commented Thierry Best, Chief Commercial Officer of Alstom Transport. “This contract demonstrates Alstom’s expertise in mastering all businesses of the rail sector: rolling stock, information systems and services among others. It will allow Alstom to further strengthen its presence in Poland, where the Transport Sector of Alstom is already present with a plant in Katowice employing more than 500 people “, he added.

On movies below one can see how huge is modernisation (over 300 km of double track railway upgrade) of E65 Warsaw - Gdańsk railway.

Warszawa - Działdowo - (Iława) 27.04.2011 part of E65
9C9vK11cZnk

(Ciechanów) - Nasielsk - Warszawa 21.04.2011 part of E65
nTZ8x_ouaNs

1
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/262/obraz34c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/obraz34c.jpg/)

2
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5890/obraz16z.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/obraz16z.jpg/)

3
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9291/obraz28l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/obraz28l.jpg/)

4
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6733/obraz17f.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/obraz17f.jpg/)

5
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/7159/obraz12z.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/obraz12z.jpg/)

6 Iława
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/6184/obraz63.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/obraz63.jpg/)

7 Iława
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1205/obraz62.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/obraz62.jpg/)

8 Iława
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/741/obraz61u.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/obraz61u.jpg/)

9 Tutaj (Montowo) ma być prostowany łuk.
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4273/obraz55.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/obraz55.jpg/)

10
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1456/obraz51a.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/obraz51a.jpg/)

11
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3029/obraz49.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/obraz49.jpg/)

12
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1707/obraz48g.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/obraz48g.jpg/)

13
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/4851/obraz47.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/obraz47.jpg/)

14
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7411/obraz46.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/obraz46.jpg/)

15
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2204/obraz45.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/obraz45.jpg/)

17
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8901/obraz42.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/obraz42.jpg/)

18
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7315/obraz41h.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/225/obraz41h.jpg/)

19
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3779/obraz39.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/148/obraz39.jpg/)

20
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7131/obraz38.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/obraz38.jpg/)

21
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3272/obraz36.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/obraz36.jpg/)

22
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7032/obraz35.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/840/obraz35.jpg/)

23
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3677/obraz33i.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/obraz33i.jpg/)

24
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2561/obraz32.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/808/obraz32.jpg/)

25
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8039/obraz29.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/obraz29.jpg/)

26
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/465/obraz27u.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/obraz27u.jpg/)

27
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4739/obraz25l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/obraz25l.jpg/)

28 Tutaj też będzie prostowany łuk.
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1309/p1070992y.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/p1070992y.jpg)

29
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1986/obraz23t.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/obraz23t.jpg/)

30
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5294/obraz22f.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/obraz22f.jpg/)

31
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4933/obraz20u.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/obraz20u.jpg/)

32
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3272/obraz18.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/obraz18.jpg/)

33
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1048/obraz15z.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/225/obraz15z.jpg/)

34
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/852/obraz14m.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/171/obraz14m.jpg/)

35 Budynek LCS w Działdowie.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7571/obraz11e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/obraz11e.jpg/)

36
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3211/obraz10a.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/obraz10a.jpg/)

37
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4809/obraz09.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/obraz09.jpg/)

38
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/5244/obraz07.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/obraz07.jpg/)

39
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8064/obraz06.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/obraz06.jpg/)

40
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4375/obraz05e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/obraz05e.jpg/)

41
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3733/obraz04.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/obraz04.jpg/)

42
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7411/obraz03.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/obraz03.jpg/)

43
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/3746/obraz01d.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/obraz01d.jpg/)

Tin_Can

July 20th, 2011, 06:49 PM

what so good about ugly stadler trains? they really remind me Д1 diesel train in design, I used them also and I can hardly call them comfortable. bombardier or those swiss and even italian trains are by far better. in Italia trains are cheap, quiet fast and have by far more comfortable chairs, I don't know the name of producer. :banana: the cheapest train was some 10,50 euro on rome-napoli line.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Diesel-multi-train_D1.jpg/800px-Diesel-multi-train_D1.jpg
stadler looks pretty similar to me, especially those ugly electrical trains which usually tend to be more elegant.
Well,it's matter of personal taste. In these days many trains look alike. Photos don't do any justice to Stadler Flirts either,as from certain angles they look lot bulkier than they really are. Anyway,I'm sure that both Belarus & Estonia chose best trains,as there more to trains than just look. Running costs,ease of maintenance,weather proofness etc are all important too.

I personally like Siemens Desiro's and PESA Elf's. Really nice designs.

...Alstom to supply and maintain a fleet of 20 New Pendolino trains for PKP Intercity

30/05/2011

The Polish operator PKP Intercity, in charge of long distance passenger transport, has awarded Alstom a contract worth €665 million1 to supply 20 high speed trains, their full maintenance up to 17 years and the construction of a new maintenance depot. The first trains are scheduled for delivery in 2014.

PKP Intercity will operate the trains on existing routes in Poland: Warsaw-Gdansk-Gdynia; Warsaw-Krakow; Warsaw-Katowice. The travel time will be significantly shortened. The trainsets will travel between Warsaw and Gdansk in 2.5 hours, and between Warsaw and Krakow or Warsaw and Katowice in slightly more than 2 hours.

The trainsets of 7 cars each will be based on Alstom’s standard New Pendolino platform. In line with the customer’s specifications, they will not integrate the tilting system. With a maximum speed of 250 km/h:cheers:, they will be able to carry up to 402 passengers. The trains will be manufactured at Alstom’s Savigliano site in Italy, where Pendolino trains have been manufactured for more than 30 years.
:rofl: Hahaa,I've heard about that before,but I thought that PKP finally changed their mind and decided to opt for tilting trains. Maybe they should change the train name ;)

Anyway,I think that it's okay if Poland doesn't instantly upgrade it's part of Rail Baltica. Imho,Polish railways are in better condition (not to mention that they are 1435mm track gauge) than our prehistoric railways and they don't have such urgent need for upgrading Rail Baltica section.

void0

July 20th, 2011, 07:43 PM

Swiss Stadler eyeing joint venture with Belkommunmash 18.07.2011 19:15

MINSK, 18 July (BelTA) – The Swiss company Stadler has suggested setting up a joint venture to the Belarusian mechanical engineering company Belkommunmash, representatives of the Belarusian company told BelTA.

Belarus bought several trains for city railway commuting abroad a while ago. Speaking about making such products, representatives of Belkommunmash said that they were considering an official proposal of Stadler to set up a joint venture. The proposal opens up a very powerful part of the market for Belkommunmash. Uniting efforts with Stadler, Belkommunmash will get global positioning.

Speaking about the possibility of manufacturing cars in Belarus, Belkommunmash representatives said that the technical part was easily doable. Advanced passenger vehicles, which are much more complex than cars, are manufactured in Belarus.

Speaking about working in conditions of the Customs Union and the Single Economic Space, the source said that it would give extra advantages to the export-oriented company. Belkommunmash has good experience of working together with major Russian companies and the company sees good prospects in this area. Belkommunmash is also ready to promote relations with the Kazakh side.

Assembling for Russian market doesn't make sense, since Russia has big plans on assembling trains inside of Russia, together with Siemens (200+ Siemens Desiro trainsets), Alstom, some other companies.

pzlotnik

July 20th, 2011, 08:07 PM

:rofl: Hahaa,I've heard about that before,but I thought that PKP finally changed their mind and decided to opt for tilting trains. Maybe they should change the train name ;)

Well, gaining a few minutes on tracks between Gdansk - Warsaw - Katowice isn`t worth tens of million EUR more. Tilting trains are suitable for winding routes that are common in mountain countries like Italy, it doesn`t make sense to implement it on lowland Poland.:)

I heard that tilting system train coud arrive 7 minutes earlier than without on this route.:rofl:

210 minutes for 340 km is ok.

pzlotnik

July 20th, 2011, 08:12 PM

Imho,Polish railways are in better condition (not to mention that they are 1435mm track gauge) than our prehistoric railways and they don't have such urgent need for upgrading Rail Baltica section.

Maybe tracks between biggest polish cities are in quite good shape, but the rest is in very bad condition.:ohno:

Euro City train Lech between Zielona Góra and Poznań:

VFPQiyuK9a0

Part of polish section of RB is in average shape.

Section Warsaw - Białystok is electrified and speed is between 80 - 120 km / h.

Section Białystok - Suwałki - LTborder is only 1 track, not electrified and speed between 80 and 100 km /h.

ianto

July 20th, 2011, 10:28 PM

Lietuvos Geležinkeliai ordered 5 more doubledecker electric multiple units from Škoda, Czech Republic (plus one option) for 39 mil. €.

Three of them will be the same as EJ575 already in operation (3 part), two of them will consist of two coaches only (2 part).

Delivery is scheduled between 2012-14.

Pansori

July 21st, 2011, 02:40 AM

^^
Good news. This means Lithuanian Railways will have [i]nine[i] EJ575 trains. Also this probably means that all Vilnius-Kaunas trains will be EJ575 and no more old ER9M (which are not all THAT bad but can hardly compare to new contemporary trainsets).

Btw, me and bleetz were wondering about the characteristics of EJ575. How do they compare to other similar trains (Siemens Desiro, Stadler Flirt) in terms of price and performance? Which is a more reasonable and better value solution for a country like Lithuania?

Pro rail baltica

July 21st, 2011, 11:19 AM

Would it be possible that someone send some photos from Dis-ability toilets of Future Latvian, Polish and Lithuanian trains?

Does the toilets have stainless steel poles?

Wover

July 21st, 2011, 12:12 PM

No, but they do have free lubrication liquids in the soap compartment and a switch to turn the lights to red ;).

Please Pro rail baltica, stop your perversions :P.

pzlotnik

July 21st, 2011, 12:27 PM

Anyway,I think that it's okay if Poland doesn't instantly upgrade it's part of Rail Baltica. Imho,Polish railways are in better condition (not to mention that they are 1435mm track gauge) than our prehistoric railways and they don't have such urgent need for upgrading Rail Baltica section.

Polish section of RB timetable:

Suwałki - Białystok, distance 130 km, 2h 10 min
Białystok - Warszawa Wschodnia, distance 180 km, 2h 20 min.

So average speed is 70 km/h.

That timetable is for oridinary trains, express trains should be some 20 minutes better (less stops).

Tin_Can

July 21st, 2011, 02:05 PM

Btw, me and bleetz were wondering about the characteristics of EJ575. How do they compare to other similar trains (Siemens Desiro, Stadler Flirt) in terms of price and performance? Which is a more reasonable and better value solution for a country like Lithuania?

Siemens Desiro ML (is getting more common in these days,than the old Desiro)
Acceleration: >1,1m/s²
Top speed: 160km/h
Capacity (two to four section train): 120-384 and 200+ standing places
Low floor section: ???
Cost of train with three sections: 4,4 million euros
Pros: high fuel efficiency,CCTV,available with 1520mm track gauge (Desiro RUS),available as both EMU & DMU

Stadler Flirt
Acceleration: >1,2m/s²
Top speed: 160km/h
Capacity (four section train): 232+28 seats and ~320 standing places (Finnish Sm5 specification)
Low floor section: >70%
Cost of train with three sections: 4,45 million euros
Pros: CCTV,available with 1520mm gauge (Sm5),avaliable as both EMU & DMU (Diesel-electric Flirts for Estonia)

Skoda CityElefant EJ575
Acceleration: ???
Top speed: 160km/h
Capacity (three section train): 304-310 seats
Low floor section: ???
Cost of train with three sections: 7 million euros
Pros: CCTV,anti-graffiti paint,available with 1520mm gauge (Lithuania's own CityElefants)

As you can see,ordinary trains are pretty much the same. EJ575 don't have any major advantage over others...instead it has lot higher unit cost. Basically high seating capacity of double decker train vs. ordinary trains with more wagons & seats.
Imho,best option would have been to purchase single deck EMU or DMU trains with 4-5 sections.

Pro rail baltica

July 21st, 2011, 02:33 PM

^^

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Desiro_ML

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_FLIRT

http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/factsheets/FLIRT_Junakalusto_Oy_e.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityElefant

Too bad no pictures of toilets.. But I bet they are better than those old trains between Riga-Daugavpils (that are absolutely awful. The toilets I mean.)

Pansori

July 21st, 2011, 03:17 PM

Siemens Desiro ML (is getting more common in these days,than the old Desiro)
Acceleration: >1,1m/s²
Top speed: 160km/h
Capacity (two to four section train): 120-384 and 200+ standing places
Low floor section: ???
Cost of train with three sections: 4,4 million euros
Pros: high fuel efficiency,CCTV,available with 1520mm track gauge (Desiro RUS),available as both EMU & DMU

Stadler Flirt
Acceleration: >1,2m/s²
Top speed: 160km/h
Capacity (four section train): 232+28 seats and ~320 standing places (Finnish Sm5 specification)
Low floor section: >70%
Cost of train with three sections: 4,45 million euros
Pros: CCTV,available with 1520mm gauge (Sm5),avaliable as both EMU & DMU (Diesel-electric Flirts for Estonia)

Skoda CityElefant EJ575
Acceleration: ???
Top speed: 160km/h
Capacity (three section train): 304-310 seats
Low floor section: ???
Cost of train with three sections: 7 million euros
Pros: CCTV,anti-graffiti paint,available with 1520mm gauge (Lithuania's own CityElefants)

As you can see,ordinary trains are pretty much the same. EJ575 don't have any major advantage over others...instead it has lot higher unit cost. Basically high seating capacity of double decker train vs. ordinary trains with more wagons & seats.
Imho,best option would have been to purchase single deck EMU or DMU trains with 4-5 sections.

So EJ575 are actually MORE expensive? Why would Lithuanian Railways wouldn't go for Flirts or Desiro trains? They are buying those in Russia and Belarus which means it's not a problem to adjust them for 1520mm gauge.

bleetz

July 21st, 2011, 03:38 PM

Costs are shown per three sections and three sections of Škoda trains have more seats than three sections of others. I guess that's why they are more expensive. No?

Tin_Can

July 21st, 2011, 03:59 PM

^^
Yes,but if you look it the other way around - LG could have bought single deck trains for same amount of money (7 million per unit),which would have had more wagons (= even more seats) or could have chosen single deck trains with 4-5 sections (about same amount of seats as EJ575 has) which would have been a lot cheaper than Skodas.

ArtManDoo

July 21st, 2011, 04:38 PM

I think you asked this question a while ago, didn't you? ;)

Seemingly there pretty much is a consensus in Lithuania that RA-2 is perhaps one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) failures of the Lithuanian Railways once it comes to puchases of rolling stock. Thank god they bought only a few. The latest buys of Lithuanian Railways are Polish PESA railbuses, (which essentially serve the same purpose and same routes as the RA-2, but are more reliable andgenerally better machines. I guess some more experienced railfans could comment on that though.

Such decision by the Litrail a few years back may be understandable because Lithuania uses same track gauge as Russia 1520mm which makes it somewhat complicated to get decent rolling stock for a good price. But isn't Serbia using 1435mm gauge? This gives more then plenty of great options without extra costs. Such "purchase" by Serbia is very strange at the very least.

About RA2 I agree. Yes it is the biggest failure in puchasing new stock. There have been moments(quite long ones) when only one consist out of four was in service. All other three were broken down. RA2 is extremely unrealible stock. And it makes it very costy if stock is more time in repairs than on service. RA2 needed several times help from some loco to pull it back from line because of breakdown. The noise level is also quite high. If there appear collisions with road velchies in Serbia then you got jackpot because of getting spare parts for RA2 is annoying. One RA2 had collision on railway crossing and it took more than a year before transmash supplied parts. About acceleration, fuel consumption, power etc look at the homepage. Design for Serbian units is lot's better than those for LG. Time will show how theese RA2 work in Serbia but I am very careful because I know that it was and still is total waste of money for LG.

ArtManDoo

July 21st, 2011, 04:52 PM

Flirts are very nice indeed - Serbian Railways has already taken bids for up to 25 EMU trainsets, and Stadler, along with Siemens, Bombardier & CAF, has submitted its offer. Hopefully, we should find out within the next month or two who won.

As for the RA-2, they will be used on mostly rural, secondary routes, in eastern & northern Serbia, where tracks are not necessarily in a very good shape. So we need something sturdy...a workhorse so to say. Hopefully, we found it in this RA-2.

Btw, for years I've been hearing about the "unrealiability" stories regarding our Riga RVR-built trainsets, such as this one used by Belgrade's suburban rail...but frankly, from what I've seen, they're soldiering on...despite their age and relentless graffiti "artists" :bash:

Better buy some second hand stock from Western Europe, make a bit renovation and you get trains that work for sure. RA2 is very risky buy. Fortunately winter in Serbia is not so cold as in Lithuania. RA2 has lot's of electronical problems if temperature goes lower than zero.

Yes the old RVR stock works, it works in lots of ex CCCR countries. And if needed it will work for next 10 years also. But it consumes lot's of energy and 20 years older stock from Western Europe is lot's of better if to wiew the passenger comfort. By the way many countries like Switzerland, Austria, Poland, Italy etc also still use stock built about the same time.

ArtManDoo

July 21st, 2011, 05:04 PM

ArtManDoo

July 21st, 2011, 05:16 PM

In recent times perhaps. It's hard to tell what was failure or success in USSR days. But there was another failure: TEP70BS. They just keep breaking down which was the reason ancient TEP60's were not withdrawn from service for so long (I think one is still operating?).

Yes even brand new TEP70BS are nothing good. LG even wanted to sell theese new (only 5 years old when wanted to sell) locos but nobody was intrested. The problem is that Russian producers are not able to make electronics that work. They also have some other problems, can't fight with some specific resonances etc. That's why now they deal with Siemens and Alstom. Siemens and Alstom make the tricky parts(electronics, wind problems, some dynamics). Russina producer failed to make electronics and dynamics, this is the only reason why RZD bought HS trains from Siemens otherwise they it it themselves. Modern trains are only electronics :) Just as planes.

SimFox

July 21st, 2011, 09:25 PM

So EJ575 are actually MORE expensive? Why would Lithuanian Railways wouldn't go for Flirts or Desiro trains? They are buying those in Russia and Belarus which means it's not a problem to adjust them for 1520mm gauge.

Mind you, Flirt as VERY comfortable for people with babies (you know in carriages) doors are very wide and there is plenty of space inside the train where carriages could be parked during the ride. Plus fold-down sitting available right by. In EJ575 it is far more problematic, it's design is really carriage and wheel chair unfriendly with limited space and all the doors and turns. Plus it full of narrow turns and corners that would be nightmare would train, God forbid, catch fire.
Flirts are also are very good rides. Smooth, quiet (in and out), air-conditioning is effective in summer (at +32C) and hitting in winter (at -30C) Air curtain wall at the doors performs its function surprisingly well.
All-in-all I'd say these are great trains

ABC LV

July 23rd, 2011, 11:07 AM

Look 2:00. A RVR diesel train, look how it jumps and shakes --> very bad dynamics. The diesel also hase very poor acceleration and noise level. RVR electrics are better than diesels but not as good as Western ones.

DR engines were designed and made in zvezda factory in lenigrad in early 60ties. And since in soviet planed economy thy didn't had much choice to choose from they had to stick with those.

void0

July 23rd, 2011, 10:30 PM

Something, based on RVR stuff (mentally at least).It is obsolete already, but incremental improvements make more sense :cheers:
QmTBy0y6C7Y&

Alexriga

July 25th, 2011, 12:48 PM

You're probably talking about the ETR500's ("AV" for Alta Velocita or high-speed). They were built by AnsaldoBreda, the same guys that had enormous problems with the Danish order for trains (they seriously fucked up there) and the Amsterdam - Brussels semi-highspeed (250kph) trains which should have been running for 2 years already, but people are giving up hope that they will ever actually run on commercial service.

no, I was talking about non high speed but suburban and overnight intecity trains which went on 160km/h and were really comfortable cheap and fast.

Tin_Can

July 25th, 2011, 06:10 PM

What did you drink?
Look 2:00. A RVR diesel train, look how it jumps and shakes --> very bad dynamics. The diesel also hase very poor acceleration and noise level. RVR electrics are better than diesels but not as good as Western ones.
http://youtu.be/XW0nzBYgZwI

You can partially blame bad railways - old tracks around stations used to be quite bad. DR1's had variable quality - the ones fitted with German diesel engines were slightly better,than ones with Russian diesel engines. I agree about crappy acceleration.

Anyway,I was thinking more about RVR electric trains :P

Pro rail baltica

July 26th, 2011, 04:06 PM

Hello,

I have been wondering one quite important thing related to trains.

How many of you have had sex in a train?

I have found several internet pages with stories of hetero and gay sex.

So I quess it is quite common thing in Baltics?

Sex in Train Toilet
http://www.keralaerotica.net/Sex_Stories/Travel_Sex/Travel_Sex_Stories/Sex%20in%20Train%20Toilet.htm

Train Toilet Sex
http://www.literotica.com/s/train-toilet-sex

Stranger on Train
http://www.shorteroticstories.com/stranger-on-train.php

http://video.xnxx.com/video733793/jill_kelly_train_anal_xxfuckerxx

http://video.xnxx.com/video826795/busty_in_train

http://video.xnxx.com/video97788/horny_housewife_fucked_in_the_train

http://www.redtube.com/2590

If some one have this kind of Baltica rail material please send me pictures or video clips! I cannot wait year 2020 when Rail Baltica start to run! I will be a man at his best age (50). I have noticed that for example Russian young women like that kind of guys with big vollet.

lucky1

July 26th, 2011, 04:57 PM

Surely some appropriate tags describing this thread are missing. :P

Tin_Can

July 26th, 2011, 07:01 PM

Will the Rail Baltica also improve Baltic fertility rates? :P

bleetz

July 26th, 2011, 08:26 PM

Imagine the business opportunities for the porn industry!

Rapter

July 26th, 2011, 10:13 PM

I have a feeling someone is 'raping' PRB's account in here :colgate:

bleetz

July 27th, 2011, 12:13 AM

No no, he is like that :laugh:

Pansori

July 27th, 2011, 12:26 AM

Pro Rail Baltica, do you have something like "Sex in the Shinkansen" or "Sex in CRH"? I think that would be more my taste than those fat unattractive chicks you linked to.

Pro rail baltica

July 27th, 2011, 09:37 AM

Pro Rail Baltica, do you have something like "Sex in the Shinkansen" or "Sex in CRH"? I think that would be more my taste than those fat unattractive chicks you linked to.

Sex in Bullet train, long video
->
http://www.orgasmicpages.com/742601/Extra_sex_service_by_horny_japanese_bullet_train.html

A bit off topic, but here is very famous Finnish artist singing in Ship cabin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cABTulD3c6Q&feature=related

See video part 2:19 -> 2:40

Tin_Can

July 27th, 2011, 04:18 PM

Okay,enough with train sex jokes XD

Smth more serious:
Travelport: poor railway connection restrains Baltic tourism.

Poor pan-Baltic railway connection restrains tourist & businessmen travel through Baltics,said Ruta Skujeniece,head of Travelport (internet based tourism solutions) office in Baltics.
She explained that Railway lines in Baltics don't offer alternative to those who wish to travel further. For example,when person wishes to travel to Prague,he will prefer airplane or bus.
"It's a shame that from Latvia there aren't any direct links to Warsaw or even to Lithuanian border. And for exaple,when businessmen arrive to Riga,they are very surprised that they can't take a train to Vilnius or Tallinn,because these are so close." said Skujeniece.
Skujeniece brought comparison to pre-WW2 times,when train travel from Riga to Berlin was possible.
She said,that if there would be better railway connections between Baltic,it would definitely help to boost tourism growth.

Source: http://majandus.delfi.ee/news/uudised/travelport-kehv-raudteeuhendus-parsib-balti-turismi.d?id=50246353&l=wdelfi

bleetz

July 27th, 2011, 08:37 PM

No shit :|

Tin_Can

August 5th, 2011, 05:15 PM

Guys,nothing really ground braking here :wink2:,but according to information posted by xkala1x in Estonian railways thread,Estonian government is soon starting feasibility study for Tallinn-Tartu-Riga and Tallinn-St.Petersburg routes. Part of study assignments are finding out running costs and determining,which new rolling stock is suitable for those routes. If study is favourable for Tallinn-Tartu-Riga and Tallinn-St.Petersburg routes,it might eventually lead to procurement for new trains,which will be used on international routes. Service could start as early as 2015...

Such insignificant news. :wink2:

Pro rail baltica

August 6th, 2011, 01:03 PM

Swiss Stadler to assist with electric train production in Belarus

http://www.tubecharm.com/popular/174/train/1.html

http://www.largeporntube.com/search/?q=public+train

04.08.2011 19:11

MINSK, 4 August (BelTA) – There are plans to set up a holding company to make electric trains in Belarus with assistance of the Swiss company Stadler, Deputy Head of Belarusian Railways Vladimir Balakhonov told media on 4 August.

The official said that negotiations were underway between Stadler, the Belarusian mechanical engineering company Belkommunmash, the Minsk wagon repairs plant, and the Baranovichi-based machine-tools manufacturing division. If the project goes ahead, Belarus will make not only trains but all the electric stock.

Vladimir Balakhonov added that Stadler’s head was expected to visit Belarus soon. Prospects of cooperation will be discussed with First Vice Premier of Belarus Vladimir Semashko.

Stadler has already supplied three modern electric trains to Belarusian Railways. Two more will be shipped by the end of the year. Stadler is supposed to supply a total of ten trains to Belarus. The company is interested in exporting more.

Swiss Stadler is a leading European manufacturer of rolling stock for railways, including rail buses, diesel and electric trains, double-deck electric trains, passenger cars and trams. Stadler products are now used in Germany, the USA, Austria, France, and Italy. Among other things Stadler offers FLIRT trains, a new-generation lineup of electric trains.

http://news.belta.by/en/news/econom?id=648234

http://www.belcommunmash.by/

I HEARD that http://www.rw.by/ will upgrade most of their trains in Belarus into Stadler if the factory plan will come true.

bebrs12

August 6th, 2011, 09:51 PM

If you think that rail transport is always something regulated, state-subsidised and with high capital costs, you are wrong. There are Norries in Cambodia - informal, private and illegal motor trolleys using (almost) abandoned rail lines. These would see a great use in Baltics knowing the big number of abandoned rail lines if only roads would not be so good and most of the lines would not be dismantled. :)
Enjoy watching:
l4qttp6nDts

Tin_Can

August 6th, 2011, 11:53 PM

These would see a great use in Baltics knowing the big number of abandoned rail lines if only roads would not be so good and most of the lines would not be dismantled. :)
Uh,wut? Are you suggesting that Baltics should use smth like that for railway transport? :nuts:

latvia prefers horsecarts
:| It makes sense now...

zeķīte

August 7th, 2011, 12:23 AM

This could be cheap solution for Baltics :lol: :

T8_mLyWapRo
ei8Wxjyjp6E
wkeBIHWYrJg

bebrs12

August 7th, 2011, 01:12 AM

Uh,wut? Are you suggesting that Baltics should use smth like that for railway transport? :nuts:
I mean bamboo trains are great alternative for demolishing the rails and selling them for scrap metal. Madona-Gulbene section would be a strong candidate for such service as true trains show there only occasionally. Will think of this business case :D
The Top Gear solution looks cool, yet those "trains" could change only at passing loops, while norries can just be taken off the track wherever it's needed :)

Tin_Can

August 7th, 2011, 01:34 AM

^^
But many small railways end up as scrap metal not because of lack of passengers,but bad track conditions,so it doesn't really matter how big passenger trains are being used on those lines ;) And considering that safety is one of top priorities for railway service - draisines aren't exactly safe or meant for real passenger service.
I think Swiss & Germans might be onto smth here - they have numerous small railbuses running to tiny villages in the middle of nowhere and equally small freight trains are also used to those lines. In Baltics only Lithuania is using railbuses (Pesa),so it might be good idea to further develop railbus service here.
It would not be impossible for some county or group of villages to buy their own railbus(with little help by EU & government funding,of course),which they could use for servicing their own population.

Oh,and I'd like that Jaguar 'sports train' :D

bebrs12

August 7th, 2011, 11:24 AM

I think norries can go even on very bad tracks - at lest the video from Cambodia shows extremely bad one (at least worse than Riga-Ērgļi when it was dismantled). Shame Cambodian government has found an investors, so all (two) ot their rail lines is being reconstructed and will see new faster trains. Norrie got banned and their drivers got some compensation.
In a Latvian version norries should be also pedal-powered cos, when the weather gets cold, passengers should warm up somehow. And the additional man-power will make norries more eco-friendly.

zeķīte

August 7th, 2011, 12:56 PM

Tin_Can

August 7th, 2011, 08:36 PM

Actually on Rīga- Ērgļi line they used an AR2-01 which basically was railbus, but after it crashed with truck they decided to close the line.

Instead of repairing it or buying new railbuses?! :nuts:

bebrs12

August 7th, 2011, 09:33 PM

Tin_Can

August 8th, 2011, 12:18 AM

Yes, you cached the spirit of LDz :D But the situation was rather hopeless - a 90km railway in bad condition to a village with 2000 inhabitants. Once there was a train vs bicycle race from Riga to Ērgļi an the fastest cyclist won the race by 45 minutes.

Yeah,but still it's really sad to see railway lines closed. Especially knowing how hard impact it has on local communities. For example,ever since Pärnu-Mõisaküla passenger train line was closed (on former Tallinn-Pärnu-Mõisaküla-Rujiena-Riga railway) about 15 years ago,Mõisaküla town population has been dropping. Often many small towns & villages are very dependant of railway connection (no matter how good or bad it is)

zeķīte

August 11th, 2011, 11:24 PM

Tin_Can

August 11th, 2011, 11:44 PM

Nobody isn't saying anything about Lithuanians completing dual-gauge Šeštokai–Mockava section? (it's the first, 7,5km long section of 1435mm gauge Rail Baltica!)

Link: http://www.sumin.lt/lt/naujienos/11299

Nice work! :applause:

Tin_Can

August 11th, 2011, 11:55 PM

Somewhat old news,but still important considering the future of Rail Baltica:

"Baltic Container Train" is starting regular service in this year.
Container train will Finland & Austria. Cargo is shipped from Helsinki to Tallinn,port of Muuga,where it will be loaded onto trains and sent to Šeštokai. In Šeštokai cargo will be loaded from 1520mm gauge trains to 1435mm gauge trains which will conitunue to Austria.
Full route of "Baltic Container Train" is Helsinki>Tallinn–Riga–Šeštokai–Vienna.
It takes 1,5 days for train to reach Polish border from Tallinn and 4 days to cover entire route.

Source: http://www.railbaltic.eu/en/naujas-konteinerinis-traukinys-sujungs-suomija-su-austrija/

For 1435mm gauge Rail Baltica it would take a day or two to send cargo from Finland to Austria. :|

bebrs12

August 12th, 2011, 01:36 AM

For 1435mm gauge Rail Baltica it would take a day or two to send cargo from Finland to Austria.
I think reloading takes the smallest part of the time. Don't know how they reload now but it would be very easy and fast to reload containers from 1520mm to 1435mm flatcars if they could put those trains side-by-side and use one or several portal cranes.

bleetz

August 12th, 2011, 01:08 PM

OK so in 2013 (when the Šeštokai - Kaunas section is complete) you guys will be able to reload your Western Europe bound stuff with the help of a new sweet logistics centre in Kaunas (for a reasonable fee) :D. You will be able to do so together with Russians and Belarussians who will be the largest clients of that logistics centre as it will be pretty much the only place where they can do that properly :tongue3:

bebrs12

August 12th, 2011, 01:34 PM

To be precise - we will use the logistics center only if it's charges and railway charges are reasonable (both in Lithuania and Poland) :)

Tin_Can

August 12th, 2011, 07:17 PM

bleetz

August 13th, 2011, 07:25 PM

Yes :tongue3:

Though they will build the whole Lithuanian section by 2015 apparently. And if I understand correctly, this "Rail Baltica" is not the same as the real Rail Baltica. This whole thing is just basically building a new gauge track right next to the old one. The proper Rail Baltica will be much faster and will require new tracks altogether. It is beyond me why they split the project like that, once the real Rail Baltica is built, most of this track will be useless. From what I gather, this is just a quick fix before the real thing (because the real thing has been stagnating for too long).

Pansori

August 14th, 2011, 01:33 AM

Yes, the current U/C bit will have speed limited to something like 100km/h (maybe even 80km/h in places).

All I wonder is how much the current Lithuanian project costs and and is there really a need for it? It most definitely won't be used by passengers so this means there will have to be a demand for goods to be carried from/to Poland. Is there such a demand for rail transportation?

bleetz

August 14th, 2011, 07:40 AM

Tin_Can

August 15th, 2011, 07:27 PM

Though they will build the whole Lithuanian section by 2015 apparently. And if I understand correctly, this "Rail Baltica" is not the same as the real Rail Baltica. This whole thing is just basically building a new gauge track right next to the old one. The proper Rail Baltica will be much faster and will require new tracks altogether. It is beyond me why they split the project like that, once the real Rail Baltica is built, most of this track will be useless. From what I gather, this is just a quick fix before the real thing (because the real thing has been stagnating for too long).

Yes, the current U/C bit will have speed limited to something like 100km/h (maybe even 80km/h in places).

All I wonder is how much the current Lithuanian project costs and and is there really a need for it? It most definitely won't be used by passengers so this means there will have to be a demand for goods to be carried from/to Poland. Is there such a demand for rail transportation?
It doesn't make much sense. Judging by those rare few photos on internet of Šeštokai–Mockava railway,it's double gauge (1435 & 1520mm) track - basically the thing what the main 1435mm Rail Baltica line will be made of. But so low top speeds...WTF? Those speeds mean that it's not feasible to run any passenger trains on it :ohno: In fact,it's even too low for freight trains.
Is there any good explanation for so low speeds? Is it because of tight curves or other safety issues?
Because it simply doesn't make any sense to built railway with so low speeds,not to mention building another 1435mm gauge line later for Rail Baltica. It's definitely not done so because of money saving,as building railway with 100km/h max. speeds doesn't give any significant savings. 120km/h top speeds are bare minimum in these days for new tracks and in Europe most new tracks have atleast 160km/h top speeds.

bleetz

August 15th, 2011, 11:28 PM

Pansori

August 16th, 2011, 03:13 AM

It doesn't make much sense. Judging by those rare few photos on internet of Šeštokai–Mockava railway,it's double gauge (1435 & 1520mm) track - basically the thing what the main 1435mm Rail Baltica line will be made of. But so low top speeds...WTF? Those speeds mean that it's not feasible to run any passenger trains on it :ohno: In fact,it's even too low for freight trains.
Is there any good explanation for so low speeds? Is it because of tight curves or other safety issues?
Because it simply doesn't make any sense to built railway with so low speeds,not to mention building another 1435mm gauge line later for Rail Baltica. It's definitely not done so because of money saving,as building railway with 100km/h max. speeds doesn't give any significant savings. 120km/h top speeds are bare minimum in these days for new tracks and in Europe most new tracks have atleast 160km/h top speeds.

It's the curves. Just look at the map of the existing PL Border-Kaunas railway.

Anyway, this current project has not much to do with the "real" rail Baltica's red route suggested by Aecom. It's merely Lithuania's own early implementation of the 1435mm railway from PL border to Kaunas. The speed is good enough for freight trains. I don't think they ever go faster than 80-100km/h.

basically the thing what the main 1435mm Rail Baltica line will be made of.

What exactly do you mean by that? I thought the most viable option (red) will be a completely new railway?

TedStriker

August 16th, 2011, 12:59 PM

Tin_Can

August 16th, 2011, 06:03 PM

The plan (from what I understand) is as follows:

1. Build a slow track to Kaunas until 2013 (near the current one). This is to be used by freight trains only and is basically there to get things going and see what the market for freight services is like.

2. Build a new fast link from Kaunas to Latvia (via Panevėžys) (they say until 2015, but it doesn't sound realistic). This point is subject to the Latvians agreeing to build a new European gauge track from Riga to Lithuania.

3. Once the Latvians build the track on their end between Lithuania and Riga (if they build it) build the proper (fast) Kaunas - Poland section that can be used for fast passenger transport.

The slow track in point 1 would be useless if all three points were implemented (it is quite short anyway). However, points 2 and 3 obviously depend on what the Latvians do. If the Latvians decide not to build a European gauge railway to Lithuania then it is likely that instead of building a brand new track via Panevėžys, the current (Russian gauge) track via Šiauliai will be modernised and adapted for passenger transport. Obviously such service would require a change in Kaunas in that case, which would suck for you guys, really.
M-kay,to some extent it makes sense,even tough it's not very cost efficient. Best option would have been building the 'real' Rail Baltica route,with 220km/h speed limits and later,depending on Latvian decision, electrify the line. Somehow I think it would have been the cheapest option.
What exactly do you mean by that? I thought the most viable option (red) will be a completely new railway?

No,I didn't mean the route. I meant the tracks - Rail Baltica study proposed that atleast to some extent red route tracks would be double gauge,so trains with 1435mm & 1520mm bogies could run on Rail Baltica.

Btw,I disagree about freight train speeds - Lithuanian ER20 locomotives can go up to 120km/h and there are many new locomotives with 160km/h top speeds. It would have been useful to take this into consideration,when building new railways.

Jānis

August 16th, 2011, 06:37 PM

^^ Top speed for freight trains in Latvia is 80 km/h. Most wagons' construction speed is like 100 km/h. So it depends not only from locomotive.

bleetz

August 16th, 2011, 09:00 PM

M-kay,to some extent it makes sense,even tough it's not very cost efficient. Best option would have been building the 'real' Rail Baltica route,with 220km/h speed limits and later,depending on Latvian decision, electrify the line. Somehow I think it would have been the cheapest option.

I also don't understand why they want to build the slow track first. If they are serious about this project they should just build the real thing from Kaunas to Poland straight away. After all, the distance is not that big. It doesn't make too much sense to do what they are doing now, but I am sure that there must be something that we don't know.

Pansori

August 17th, 2011, 01:53 AM

^^

Does anyone know how much the Sestokai-Kaunas link will cost and where the funding will come from for it and the associated Kaunas logistics centre?

I only ask because in April this year DB Schenker and the Lithuanian Railway company agreed to development a new transhipment facility at Sestokai.

The answer should be here: http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/ten-t_projects/ten-t_projects_by_country/lithuania/2007-lt-27030-p.htm

The rest of the sum should come from the Lithuanian state.

Vecais Sakarnis

August 19th, 2011, 03:51 PM

Tender for new passenger trains in Latvia finally ended. CAF took the cake

pzlotnik

August 22nd, 2011, 11:24 AM

Talking about closing railways, i don't get why Lithuanians closed and took of tracks on Renģe- Mažeikiai line, which was in good condition and mostly with concrete sleepers. With this action they made unprofitable to use Rīga- Renģe line too.

Act against Orlen Lietuva - just to make oil products shipment unprofitable through Latvian ports, to force Orlen Lietuva to ship refinery products through Klaipeda terminal.

Gatis

August 22nd, 2011, 09:56 PM

Act against Orlen Lietuva - just to make oil products shipment unprofitable through Latvian ports, to force Orlen Lietuva to ship refinery products through Klaipeda terminal.

Yep, I also have the same information.

bleetz

August 22nd, 2011, 10:21 PM

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3146/crybaby.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/crybaby.png/)

bleetz

August 22nd, 2011, 10:21 PM

You are aware that this whole thing went to court and the court found no breaches of standard procedures?

Gatis

August 23rd, 2011, 09:20 AM

Sure. I remember also a Lithuanian court decision, which arrested "air Baltic" and Riga airport property. Courts like to make jokes.

bleetz

August 23rd, 2011, 09:30 AM

If the claimants (whether AirBaltic or Orlen) suspect that the responsible Lithuanian courts were corrupt in their decisions, there are plenty of national and international alternatives where they can file appeals (which I am sure the claimants' lawyers are aware of).

So, again - you and pzlotnik can use this as a mirror :D:

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3146/crybaby.png

:laugh:

Jānis

August 23rd, 2011, 10:41 AM

there are plenty of national and international alternatives where they can file appeals (which I am sure the claimants' lawyers are aware of).

They did. Now European Commission investigates this. So...

pzlotnik

August 23rd, 2011, 03:56 PM

:rofl: Hahaa,I've heard about that before,but I thought that PKP finally changed their mind and decided to opt for tilting trains. Maybe they should change the train name ;)

http://www.rynekinfrastruktury.pl/artykul/72/1/po-cmk-200-kmh.html

Probably in September, driving test will begin on the line for the introduction of CMK on the speed of 200 km / h using the first locomotive Hussar equipped cabin communication system ETCS Level 1 - said, "Railway Market" Andrzej Massel, Deputy Minister responsible for rail infrastructure.

- The first locomotive is already equipped Hussar (in cab communication devices ETCS Level 1 - ed.), And all indications are that next month will begin testing the system with the use of the locomotive for the introduction of speed of 200 km / h on the Central Trunk Line - said Andrzej Massel.

- In normal service for passengers to implement speed 200 km / h for locomotives Hussar on the Central Trunk Line will probably take place in December 2013, ie before the entry into operation of Alstom trains purchased by PKP Intercity - said Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Infrastructure.

... So new Pendolino will operate with 200 km/h on Warsaw - Katowice / Kraków on the Central Trunk Line. On Warwa - Gdańsk route they will operate with speed 160 - 200 km /h

bleetz

August 23rd, 2011, 08:10 PM

They did. Now European Commission investigates this. So...

Well, once the European Commission (?) comes to the conclusion that those actions were illegal, I will be the first one to condemn them. Until then, let's all stop crying and whining.

whatever...

August 23rd, 2011, 08:32 PM

Act against Orlen Lietuva - just to make oil products shipment unprofitable through Latvian ports, to force Orlen Lietuva to ship refinery products through Klaipeda terminal.

:)

"PKN Orlen": We'd like to buy Klaipedos Nafta
Lithuanian government: Sorry, the company is of strategic importance to national security of Lithuania and thus it will not be sold.
"PKN Orlen": If you won't sell us Klaipedos Nafta, we will start shiping our produce through Latvian ports instead then.
Lithuanian government: Good luck with that.

http://i077.radikal.ru/1010/69/b928a2726608.jpg
(c)Al1, from miestai.net

ABC LV

August 23rd, 2011, 10:42 PM

Seems that some of our southern neighbors are suffering from cavemen mentality.

whatever...

August 23rd, 2011, 11:27 PM

Call us whatever you like for all i care. Actions of PKN Orlen were, quite literally, blackmail and the response of Lithuanian government, albeit unorthodox, was more than justified.

I'd rather have our government as cavemen like that, than pussies that bend to every potentially harmful to the state demand of some company, be it foreign or local.

bleetz

August 24th, 2011, 12:28 AM

This whole conflict shows how backward the whole region still is to be honest, but if it was legal then it was legal, law is king.

Pansori

August 24th, 2011, 12:28 AM

Seems that some of our southern neighbors are suffering from cavemen mentality.

I think such a statement coming from a Latvian about either Lithuania or Poland sounds somewhat hilarious. The matter of fact is that Latvia is certainly not less (probably more) of a caveman than some of its southern neighbors (unless you mean Lukashenko's Belarus).
And I have to agree with bleetz here. Our political and social culture is still very much in the stone age compared to what is west from the Polish-German border.

Tin_Can

August 24th, 2011, 12:45 AM

ABC LV

August 24th, 2011, 07:49 AM

The matter of fact is that Latvia is certainly not less (probably more) of a caveman than some of its southern neighbors

I have never heard about anyone here actually celebrating destruction of railway infrastructure like you do in Lithuania.

pzlotnik

August 24th, 2011, 07:53 AM

:)

http://i077.radikal.ru/1010/69/b928a2726608.jpg
(c)Al1, from miestai.net

I would like to see Your face if such picture will be seen on tracks from LT / PL border up to Suwałki. ;)

pzlotnik

August 24th, 2011, 08:03 AM

Why not just let PKN Orlen to use the railway? They would have still had to pay railway usage fees,right? It was Lithuanian government owned railway,right? Not private railway?

In either way,they would have had to pay money to Lithuania ;)

It`s simple - Lithuania forced PKN Orlen to use it`s oil terminal in Klaipeda. Latvian ports offered better conditions for Orlen, so the easiest solution was to dismanlte the tracks, tha shortest route, despite it was in good condition. :)

PKN Orlen is the biggest foreign investor in Lithuania, the biggest exporter and the biggest tax payer.

But there are good signs from Lithuania, that I found in polish press :):

http://www.rynekinfrastruktury.pl/artykul/70/1/litwini-odbuduja-tory-do-rafinerii-w-mozejkach.html

Lithuanians will rebuild the tracks to the refinery in Mazeikiu

Date added: 2011-08-23 2:03:48 p.m.
Source: Railway Market
Author: WAS

As reported yesterday, "Journal Legal Newspaper," Lithuanian railways will rebuild the railway line leading to belonging to PKN Orlen refinery in Mazeikiu. Polish company learns about it from the newspapers.

As reported, "DGP", a railway connection, allowing for faster transportation of crude oil is to be restarted in March 2012, the Journal adds that Orlen intends to start production in Mažeikiai gasoline A-92, which will be exported to Russia and Ukraine.

Headquarters in Plock, but no one has been informed officially, although such information is not surprising. - PKN Orlen has not yet been officially informed by Lithuanian Railways to the deadline for the reconstruction of the railway line in the direction of Renge. But already appeared the announcement of this investment in 2012. We will follow with attention further information on this subject - reported "Railway Market" company press office.

pzlotnik

August 24th, 2011, 08:09 AM

Agreement on the transfer station in Suwalki

Date added: 2011-08-02 3:22:55 p.m.
Source: Railway Market

PKP SA, PKP PLK SA and the town of Suwalki signed August 2, 2011, the agreement on establishing the new location of the train station in Suwalki. It is connected with the correction of lines of the E 75 Rail Baltica within Suwałki.

PKP PLK SA intends to upgrade this line. Cooperation will also identify ways for development of real estate owned by PKP SA, which will no longer served the function of railway in the city center and draw up a zoning plan for the sites with a total area of approximately 15 ha. Under the agreement, will be built a new railway station will also be prepared land for future investment, and emerge a new road system and technical infrastructure network, in accordance with the principles set out in the plan.

Plan will be covered by the areas located between the streets: Railway and the outlet from the north, west Loss, Track and overseas sites to train Sianożęć street from the south, border areas on the east side station. The final boundary plan will determine the City Council in Suwalki. The draft Plan will be made by the City. Parties to the agreement provide for the possibility of joint action in order to gain investor's new train station in Suwalki and the possible announcement of architectural competitions for buildings planned in the area covered by the plan.

The way land of the former railway station building and the parameters will be agreed between the PKP and the City of Suwalki and will comply with the policy of the City and allow space for the implementation of commercial projects PKP SA PKP SA and the city will join the land-use change for purposes not related to railway transport, in agreement of PKP PLK SA, location of the new station on the railway line Suwalki E 75th.

TedStriker

August 24th, 2011, 09:52 AM

^^

Excuse my ignorance but is this referring to a passenger or cargo station?

pzlotnik

August 24th, 2011, 11:52 AM

^^

Excuse my ignorance but is this referring to a passenger or cargo station?

It`s agreement on passenger station. Today Suwalki railway station is front station, after moving it to new location it will be cruising station so there will be no need to change locomotives.

New cargo station will be located in southern part of the town in Papiernia district, because Rail Baltica will go through Olecko and Ełk to Białystok, instead of Augustów (to avoid problems with Nature 2000 area).

bleetz

August 24th, 2011, 01:05 PM

pzlotnik

August 24th, 2011, 02:00 PM

Really? I though it was going to go straight to Augustów. Line via Olecko and Ełk would be about 50 km. longer, and there is already a line that goes to Bialystok via Augustów and Sokółka, so why not just upgrade that one? Is this confirmed?

Yes, it will go by Olecko and Ełk. There would ecological problems appear if RB goes through Augustów (Augustów S8 baypass casus). Section Suwałki - Ełk must be reconstructed, but Ełk - Białystok is already electrified and before II WW it was 2 tracks , so upgrading will be easy. It isn`t 50 km longer, it`s about 25 km longer.

One must take into account also that RB through Ełk will enable direct connetion to Gdańsk / Szczecin / Hamburg railway.

http://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/foto_news_opis/22671/ba1967792dfaa579493edfd56c6d4747_d.jpg

pzlotnik

August 24th, 2011, 02:08 PM

This year one tender was announced - modernisation of section Warsaw Rembertów - Tłuszcz railway (about 25 km).

The tender type "Design and construction" in the task of modernization of the railway line E 75 Rail Baltica Warsaw - Bialystok - the border with Lithuania, stage I. Episode Warsaw Rembertów - Zielonka - Tłuszcz (Sadowne).

Pro rail baltica

August 25th, 2011, 09:54 AM

It`s agreement on passenger station. Today Suwalki railway station is front station, after moving it to new location it will be cruising station so there will be no need to change locomotives.

New cargo station will be located in southern part of the town in Papiernia district, because Rail Baltica will go through Olecko and Ełk to Białystok, instead of Augustów (to avoid problems with Nature 2000 area).

FUCK the natura.

Is it better for nature that trains travel additional distances and consume more energy and create pollutions.

PLUS it is in longer term SO much better for protected areas that people can travel there easily. Who is intrested of some cool nature animal etc. if you have to walk or do some "additional effort" to go see them?

Also the actual railway path that already exist & the modernisation that would be needed to be done will not actually damage so much the actual Natura2000 area. With small sacrifice a lot of ecoturism could be created into region that do not have so much of work places.

I quess the eastern part of Polish people just love to move away, because of lack of work from their homes to U.S.S.A or England.

Anyway I think this whole ELK / Augustow discussion is similar like in Estonia Tartu / Pärnu discussion.

It is just a way to milk funding for not just for one, but many railway infrastructures.

I BET that after ELK railway has been build there is goind to be "re-evaluation" of Augustow direction :).

And anyway, Augustow is major turist city with ever river cruises. It would be good to have high quality railway there.

Plus I think that Via Baltica already goes via Augustow. I think the logistical paths should be identical with railway and road. There is just way too much trucks at the moment on Via Baltica.

Each single person who dies on roads is extramly expensive for goverment/society -> First education etc. is payed & supported, and if person dies it is huge loss of taxpayed money to society.

pzlotnik

August 25th, 2011, 12:29 PM

I quess the eastern part of Polish people just love to move away, because of lack of work from their homes to U.S.S.A or England.

They rather move to big cities in Poland, like everywehere in the world. USA emigration stopped many years ago.

And anyway, Augustow is major turist city with ever river cruises. It would be good to have high quality railway there.

Rail connection Suwałki - Augustów - Białystok will be maintained, but for local railway transport. Mass transport will go through Suwałki and Ełk (Rail Baltica)

Plus I think that Via Baltica already goes via Augustow. I think the logistical paths should be identical with railway and road. There is just way too much trucks at the moment on Via Baltica.

Via Baltica (in Poland S61) is already planned through Suwałki - Ełk - Łomża, not through Augustów and Białystok, so logically Rail Baltica will go through same corridor:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/NowaMapaS61.svg/650px-NowaMapaS61.svg.png

Expressway S61 or express road S61 is major planned road in Poland which is going to run from the Lithuanian A5 at the Polish-Lithuanian border near Budzisko to intersect express road S8 near Ostrów Mazowiecka. The expressway became part of the polish planned expressway network with the approval of the Council of Ministers of Poland of October 20, 2009.[1] It's planned to become a part of Via Baltica route and is viewed as a way to minimalise environmental impact of Via Baltica on protected areas in northeastern Poland.[2] The first part will be the bypass of Augustów, to be finshed in 2014.

But in my opinin Rail Baltica has few chances to be completed on polish side before 2030, this is one of the least important rail routes for Poland, there are many more important routes to upgrade.

Pro rail baltica

September 8th, 2011, 06:49 AM

Speaking of travelling in train in Baltics->

Does anyone know where to ask for some escort ladies for a hmm.. intresting train trip?

I was thinking that when new Stadler and CAF trains arrive to Baltics one MUST go and test drive them. ..with proper company also.

Lets make fantasies come true!

http://internationalsexguide.info/forum/forumdisplay.php?180-Estonia

http://www.sexwork.net/girls/EST?lang_so=eng&

I really look foreward for the new trains!!

ABC LV

September 8th, 2011, 03:12 PM

Some strange fetish here.

Pansori

September 9th, 2011, 01:15 AM

Pro rail baltica

September 9th, 2011, 01:40 PM

Are you a member in Internationalsexguide? What's your nickname there? :lol:
You could ask the same question over there but I'm pretty sure people there will think you're a weirdo. :D

I am Porn Rail Baltica

chornedsnorkack

September 9th, 2011, 05:28 PM

What kinds of beds should be available on Rail Baltica?

I mean, Tallinn-Warszaw would be too long for a day train, and especially Tallinn-Berlin.

There are now overnight trains in Finland, travelling Helsinki-Giemajävri and Helsinki-Moskva.

What are the actual distances along rails Helsinki-Kolari, Helsinki-Giemajävri and Helsinki-Moskva?

What kinds of private cabins are offered on the night trains Helsinki-Lappland and Helsinki-Moskva?

bleetz

September 10th, 2011, 01:53 AM

Pro_Rail_Baltica: I think that you might want to find some half-escort girl (whore) that will just whore herself for the entire day for a reasonable fee. If you look for proper "professional" escorts on those websites, you are going to have to hire them for many hours (on an "outcall" basis), which will mean that you'll have to pay too much money.

Via Baltica (in Poland S61) is already planned through Suwałki - Ełk - Łomża, not through Augustów and Białystok, so logically Rail Baltica will go through same corridor

But it's not the same corridor! Via Baltica won't go to from Ełk to Białystok, it will go straight towards Warsaw. And that's the problem with Rail Baltica. It goes all the way west to Ełk and then all the way back east to Białystok. It adds kilometres for no good purpose!

void0

September 11th, 2011, 01:54 AM

Railroad exhibition Expo 1520 http://metroblog.ru/post/3811/

Belorussians brought Stadler, why it is at the exhibition and doesn't work on the route?

ABC LV

September 11th, 2011, 01:25 PM

Belorussians brought Stadler,

Not 1 but 10.

why it is at the exhibition and doesn't work on the route?

To show you how awesome they are :pet:

Pro rail baltica

September 11th, 2011, 04:14 PM

Railroad exhibition Expo 1520 http://metroblog.ru/post/3811/

Belorussians brought Stadler, why it is at the exhibition and doesn't work on the route?

See the serial number in photo. I think 2 are in the route use, the third one is shown in exhibition before commision.

Belarus has this far bought 10 Stadlers. There is further discussion from ordering a lot more.

However big number or train order means that some of Stadler train work would be done in Belarus // some sort of co-operation //daugter company would be esablished. (see previous posts in this topic, dont miss porn videos from trains)

Wild rumors of Talgo AVE 250 purchases have been spread in Internet. What is confirmed that RW has been visiting their factory. (see previous posts in this topic, dont miss porn videos from trains)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo#Talgo_250

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/talgo-250-arrives-in-toshkent.html

http://news.belta.by/en/news/econom/?id=505184

http://eng.rzd.ru/isvp/public/rzdeng?STRUCTURE_ID=4090

I have also hear a solid rumor from Latvian whore that Talgo is doing co-operation with CAF and Latvia will someday purchase together with Belarus some Talgo 250. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo#Talgo_250

http://silkroadintelligencer.com/2011/08/19/rail-sector-manufacturers-set-up-in-astana/

“We have had a lot of interest from Mongolia, and companies from Russia, Estonia and Latvia – all in the 1520 gauge area – are interested.”

Belarus is also building nuclear powerplant next to Vilnus. Most of the electricity is planned to use for rail infra use.

What comes to the nature of sleeping wagons I think the Moscow- Nice train level would be good.

I think there should be also good restaurant, shower and strip-tease wagon like St. Peters ferry line do --> http://www.stpeterline.com/en/OnBoard/BarsandRestaurants/XXXXBar.aspx

I have heard also that in Rovaniemi train is oparating massager. For rail Baltica train there should be Thai massage giving OWO and CIM happy ending to everyone!

The train trip should be made as much as possible like ferry ride. Sex, alcohol, good food and cheap purchase.

This way the actual rail trip would be the purpouse of trip, not the destination.

All in all there is a lot of potential services for trains that are not possible in air planes or busses. At least I am not intrested of happy ending in bus toilet :(

What is the similar name for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_high_club in train??? I want to be part of the club!

http://www.railwayobserver.com/index.php/conventional-rail/europe/183-stadlers-flirt-trainsets-delivered-to-belarus

void0

September 11th, 2011, 04:58 PM

Belarus has this far bought 10 Stadlers. There is further discussion from ordering a lot more.

However big number or train order means that some of Stadler train work would be done in Belarus // some sort of co-operation //daugter company would be esablished. (see previous posts in this topic, dont miss porn videos from trains)

They probably brought it to Russia to promote it a bit and find potential customers if they will assemble them

Tin_Can

September 11th, 2011, 06:44 PM

^^
Indeed. With Finnish Sm5 they broke into 1520mm track gauge market,managed to get large orders (Estonia & Belarus) and now Stadler is exploiting this success. With very little decent competition on 1520mm track gauge market,they will most certainly continue their successful sales in Eastern Europe & CIS countries.

It would be interesting to see how the Russian built DMUs with Stadler engines fit into all this. Possible new passenger train for conquering CIS market?

void0

September 11th, 2011, 09:41 PM

For Russian market Stadler most likely won't be able to deliver DMUs, only a subcontractor role. This is because RZD already agreed with Siemens to deliver huge number of Desiros (most of them will be Russian made) and Alstom is planing to design completely new DMU for Russian market. Transmasholding is also constantly improves their DMUs

pzlotnik

September 20th, 2011, 02:07 PM

The first tender for the Rail Baltica in Poland (only first 30 km from Warsaw in Białystok direction):

PKP Polish Railway Lines Investment Realization Center in Warsaw issued a tender for the design and implementation of the modernization of the E75 railway line Rail Baltica Warsaw - Bialystok - the border with Lithuania over a distance of Warsaw Rembertów - Zielonka - Tłuszcz (Sadowne).

The contract is to perform the necessary project documentation and obtaining the necessary arrangements, decisions including decisions on building permit and execution of work under the project of modernization of the railway line E75 Warsaw - Bialystok - the border with Lithuania over a distance of Warsaw Rembertów - Zielonka - Tłuszcz (Sadowne) .

The project aims to bring a visible performance benefits by improving the quality of connections between urban centers in the region, as well as built-up areas and the Baltic countries will meet the needs and expectations of passengers and freight. Implementation of the project should result in increased pressure on the axis to 221 kN and obtain speed V = 160 km / h for passenger trains and 120 km / h for freight trains. Implementation of modern technologies in the course of modernization is to provide a so-called. interoperability of the line, which will in future also to make it available to foreign operators.

Tin_Can

September 22nd, 2011, 05:51 PM

New joint-railway company planned for developing Rail Baltica.

Estonian government has made principal decision to go ahead with 1435mm gauge Rail Baltica project and wants to create new railway company with Latvia & Lithuania to develop Rail Baltica link.
Minister of Economic Affairs & Communications Juhan Parts said that Estonian government expects Latvians & Lithuanians to reach same decision.
On Estonian behalf,Eesti Raudtee subsidiary EVR Infra will be operating as new company starter. Joint decision between all three Baltic countries about creating new jointly owned company is expected to be reached within this autumn.
Estonian government plans to get EU funding on EU's 2014-2020 financial funding period and starts thematic planning for Estonian half of 1435mm Rail Baltica. Meanwhile Ministry of Economic Affairs & Communications will work with Ministry of Finance to work out ways to finance Rail Baltica project.

Sources: http://www.e24.ee/573256/valitsus-tahab-rail-baltica-arendamiseks-asutada-balti-uhisettevotte/
http://logistikauudised.ee/article/2011/9/22/eesti-raudtee-asutab-lati-ja-leedu-kolleegidega-rail-balticu-arendamiseks-uhisfirma

chornedsnorkack

September 22nd, 2011, 06:51 PM

Routine question - does Poland participate?

Tin_Can

September 22nd, 2011, 07:24 PM

No. Poland is too strong!!11 to participate in tiny Baltic railway company. :D j/k

Anyway,they don't have the need to co-operate on large railway construction project,so they will probably continue their Rail Baltica railway upgrades separately.

pzlotnik

September 22nd, 2011, 09:35 PM

Routine question - does Poland participate?

Poland doesn`t have to participate in such enterprise we have european gauge standard already :).

Anyway Rail Baltica connection is the least important for Poland nowdays.

1st stage, modernisation of Warszawa - Białystok railway has just started.

Białystok - Suwałki - PL / LT border is postponed for undetermined future, rather after 2020.

chornedsnorkack

September 23rd, 2011, 09:49 AM

Poland doesn`t have to participate in such enterprise we have european gauge standard already :).

Anyway Rail Baltica connection is the least important for Poland nowdays.

1st stage, modernisation of Warszawa - Białystok railway has just started.

Białystok - Suwałki - PL / LT border is postponed for undetermined future, rather after 2020.

If the 3 northern countries build 700 km of high speed railway at 1435 mm, and then the train must continue in Poland on decayed 1435 mm railway for 500 km at 40 km/h or so, then the 1435 mm railway is a big waste, and the 3 northern countries would have been better off building a high speed railway at the existing 1520 mm.

How did Finland manage to build 700 km long high speed railway (Helsinki-Oulu) for 200 km/h (Pendolini)? Only the 220 km/h Oikorata (Kerava-Lahti) is new. The railway Helsinki-Hämeenlinna-Tampere-Oulu is very old (started 1861, went to Oulu in 19th century). How come that the old railway curves did not prevent speeding it up to 200 km/h?

Pro rail baltica

September 23rd, 2011, 11:52 AM

pzlotnik

September 23rd, 2011, 12:41 PM

If the 3 northern countries build 700 km of high speed railway at 1435 mm, and then the train must continue in Poland on decayed 1435 mm railway for 500 km at 40 km/h or so, then the 1435 mm railway is a big waste, and the 3 northern countries would have been better off building a high speed railway at the existing 1520 mm.

How did Finland manage to build 700 km long high speed railway (Helsinki-Oulu) for 200 km/h (Pendolini)? Only the 220 km/h Oikorata (Kerava-Lahti) is new. The railway Helsinki-Hämeenlinna-Tampere-Oulu is very old (started 1861, went to Oulu in 19th century). How come that the old railway curves did not prevent speeding it up to 200 km/h?

It doesn`t have to continue 40 km/h in Poland, plizz stop trolling :).

On section LT/PL border - Suwałki (lenght 29 km) allowed speed is 60 km /h, travel time is 27 minutes.

On section Suwałki - Sokółka (lenght 98 km) allowed speed is 90 km /h, travel time is 90 minutes.

On section Sokółka Białystok - Warsaw (lenght 220 km) the speed is 100 - 120 km /h. Travel time on this section is 2 h 49 min.

So today travel time from LT/PL border to Warsaw (lenght 347 km) takes 4 h 46 min and gives average speed 73 km / h.

So, You are far from thruth.:)

You said 500 km in Poland with 40 km/h, heh, so lets continue:

Section Warszawa - PL / German border towards Berlin (lenght 575 km), allowed speed 120 - 160 km/h.
The fastest connection on this route is 5h 30 minutes - timetable:

Station Arrival Departure

Warszawa Centralna 06:52
Warszawa Zachodnia 06:55 06:56
Kutno 08:29 08:30
Konin 09:06 09:07
Poznań Główny 09:51 09:54
Świebodzin 10:43 10:44
Rzepin 11:12 11:14
Frankfurt(Oder) 11:33 11:36
Berlin Ostbf 12:22

So it gives average speed of 105 km /h (including stops).

So if You assume that 500 km rail travel in Poland takes 12 h 30 min - you`re mistaken, because today the train travel from LT border to Berlin through whole Poland (922 km) could take no longer than 10h 15 min, which gives average speed of 90 km/h.

How much time would it take today if there will be launched train form Tallin to LT / PL border (let`s say it is 800 km through Vilnius) ?