Today, Charles Hales, the man behind Portland's streetcar system and vice president of the engineering firm HDR Inc., was in Winston-Salem to give an update on the streetcars/light rail plan his firm is working on for Winston-Salem.

The first proposed streetcar line would run from Bowman Gray University Medical Center through downtown and to the Piedmont Triad Research Park. Additional lines could include light rail to Wake Forest University, streetcar service to the North Carolina School of the Arts and a streetcar line to Winston-Salem State University. Hales said the estimated cost of the initial line would be about $52.5 million. We are still waiting on the final presentation on funding, planned for sometime this summer.

With permission from the North Carolina General Assembly, a tax increase on motor vehicles in Winston-Salem passed Winston-Salem City Council this week and according to City Council, a third of that tax can be used to help fund the streetcar line and future streetcar and light rail lines. The car tax will also increase again next year to provide more money for the line. In addition to funding the streetcar line, some of the money will go towards greenways and bike routes. This is just one of many proposed city, county, state, foundation and federal funding sources for the streetcar system.

Excellent!!! Nice to have someone from Portland helping out ;) Time for Charles Hales to take a trip to the Triangle and enlighten TTA a bit :lol:

Matthew, can you give us more detail on the local funding source. Is it a property tax increase on cars in Winston-Salem? I'm trying to better understand this.

Great news.

It's an annual tax by cities on motor vehicles. Cities need permission from the North Carolina General Assembly to increase it. That also requires a good reason to do so. The city of Winston-Salem recieved permission to double it. I like the idea! :D Double the tax on cars in the city to help fund mass-transit. This is not the only planned funding source though. It is one of several proposed funding sources for the system.

Well if its just a property tax on motor vehicles then they would not need the NC Legislature to do it...so that is what I find confusing.

It must be capped by the state for some reason? According to the Journal and Council, they needed approval from the state to increase it and the "additional" money raised by the tax increase must be divided in three ways: Mass-transit, non-motorized transportation (bike lanes, strollway expansion, sidewalks, etc.) and safety improvements. It's good news for Winston-Salem's proposed rail based transit system, bike only lanes construction and greenway expansion. Winston-Salem's request to double the tax was approved by the state and the council approved it this week, just a day or two before the HDR presentation today.

Do you have any weblinks on this where we can read more information?

has anyone seen these:
http://www.heritagetrolley.org/planWinstonSalem.htm

The first link September 2003, has a 3.7mi line for $45 Mil.

Or a more updated path, 2.6 mi. same cost:

http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2005/06172005/trolley.gif

This is great! We need these people to come to the Triangle!

http://journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?ssbinary=true&blobcol=urlthumbpicture&blobheader=image/jpeg&blobkey=id&blobtable=MGImage&blobwhere=1137835541279&cachecontrol=0%3A17%3A59+6/10/20

Update:
Cost for first line: $52 million
First year of operation: 2010
Riders in 2010: 3,400-5,800 daily riders | 2.1 million riders a year (free)
Riders in 2025: 5,600-9,500 daily riders | 3.45 million riders a year (free)
Operating costs: $2 million a year
Length of first line: 3.8 miles of track
Fare: Free or $1.50

Next:
HDR will present to City Council in June (final plan and financing) and will be in the running to win a $5.2 million design contract.

Potential later extensions would include lines south to Old Salem and the N.C. School of the Arts, north to Wake Forest University, the fairgrounds and sports venues, and east to Winston-Salem State University.

Projections:
Downtown will gain 4,653 new housing units and 3.5 million square feet of additional office space along the Medical Center Streetcar Line with-in 10-15 years.

http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2006/04/23/trolley_route_01.gif
http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2006/04/23/trolley_route_02.gif
http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2006/04/23/trolley_route_03.gif
http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2006/04/23/trolley_route_04.gif
http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2006/04/23/trolley_route_05.gif
http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2006/04/23/trolley_route_06.gif
http://media.gatewaync.com/wsj/images/2006/04/23/trolley_route_07.gif

Very nice! :D

Glad to see the progress and the transportation initiatives made in major NC cities. Let's hope that the Triangle will get its acts together and come up with something similar. W-S is definitely on the rise, and transportation initiatives show the forward direction of the city. Thanks for the renderings, Matthew :okay:

I wonder how the operating cost with no fare would compare to the cost with the $1.50 fare. Anyway looks good& thanks for posting!

Great news. Does W-S( or other Triad cities) plan to expand (build their own) on this?

^ I think Greensboro is working on plans for a DT streetcar system?

after looking at HDR's findings, if built, this could have more of an impact than PTRP.

GO WINSTON-SALEM!!! I had no idea they were planning something like this up there. Man, I wish Nashville would have half a mind to do something like this.

Congrats to the Twin City!

Thats awesome - too bad Raleigh's leadership is thus far too short sighted to see the need for something like this. Congratulations!

To me the triad has more urban tendecies that the triangle but we're catching on slowly.

What does city leaders have to determine to get a project like this going? WS as well as the rest of the major cities in NC (except Charlotte) are medium to large mid-sized cities that have a population of 200,000 to almost 400,000. Does that suffice for such a project or is it local government dollars that gets it going?

To me, even though Raleigh (350,000) is almost doubled in population to Durham(223,000) I think Durham would opt to get something like that before Raleigh.

I don't know...maybe I am analyzing too much.......but believe me, I am Happy for WS.

That is aweome; I'm totally jealous.

I hate to always play the "heavy" on this forum but from what I have read their doesn't seem to be much political support for this system in Winston-Salem. I wish that wasn't the case. The mayor has not thrown his support behind it, he seems to be wishy washy....and it appears that Winston will not be seeking federal funding for this project so it will be 100% locally funded. So to fund it they will have to increase taxes somewhere...a City Property Tax increase probably won't happen...a Bond Package to be politically palatible would have to include other projects in other parts of Winston. So far none of that is in the works.

To build political support for this WSTA should stick one of their current fake trolleys on this route and have it be a FREE fare to see what kinds of ridership it can generate.

With the current politcal climate in Winston I am skeptical at best that this can happen...but I hope that I am wrong.

As a sidenote...has anyone seen "Thank You for Smoking" ....Winston-Salem gets a lot of mentions in that movie...although its in a very stereotypical Southern fashion....not very flattering.

This rail line will replace two popular bus routes, two rubber-tire trolley routes and a well used Wake Forest University van route; connecting their two main off-campus sites.

When the presentation is given, the Assistant City Manager, Winston-Salem Transit Authority, City-County Planning Department, Wake Forest University, !dealliance, Wachovia, The Downtown Partnership, Winston-Salem Urban Area Transit Advisory Board and the Winston-Salem Transportation Advisory Committee are expected to back HDR's proposal. Winston-Sale State University, DADA, Old Salem Museums & Gardens, Niemann Capital LLC, NC School of the Arts, National Design Institue and Salem College & Academy may also show up at City Hall to back the proposal? A completed streetcar system will be great news for them. Hearing two of the city's largest employers, including the largest employer in the 12-county Triad area, back it (it will replace transit services they now pay to operate) and a development the city views as it's future (Piedmont Triad Research Park) also back it, they will see the importance of the line. Council has voted yes several times in the past three years to pay for and continue the streetcar study. I think they will vote to approve plans this summer to start work designing and building it. Winston-Salem will join Charlotte as the state's rail transit cities.

In the future they will build two more streetcar lines (NCSA/Old Salem and WSSU/East Winston) and one possible light-rail line. I'm guessing University/LJVM is too far for streetcar service, so they have to go with light-rail instead?

If they promote it as "Free Transit," they will gain a lot of city-wide support in all wards. I still believe they should stick with original plans to use federal, state and other funding to lower the amount local taxpayers have to pay. If it takes another year or two, it will be worth it.

The mayor likes the idea and supports it. He just wants to wait until there are more condos along the route and would like to use federal dollars. HDR wants to use city dollars to rush the project to completion. If its built now, it will attract more condos to increase the number of potential riders. Developers will be aware of the line and development built at the valuable sites will be built with transit in mind. I think it is important to approve a final route before the end of the year.

Only two council members are questioning it.

Robert Clark is the only Republican in Winston-Salem city government and he represents the richest city ward in the metro area. Two Fortune 500 CEOs live in his ward. This is where the city's "Old Money" lives. If Robert wants to keep his job, he has to vote no.

Vivian Burke represents the North Liberty and Airport area. She has tried to get money and city attention to her ward, but it is still largely over-looked. She wants more city money for her ward and less in the more upscale areas, like Downtown, with its million dollar condos.

At least four city council members are fully backing the streetcar plan. Their wards include the Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center (Triad's largest employer), WSSU, Old Salem, NCSA and Downtown. Winston-Salem city council has the votes to pass it. I still think they will ask a lot of questions first. I know many people will like the speed control in their neighborhoods and will welcome the added pedestrian safety! They will also like the increased property values! :D The presentation should be exciting. Again, I think they need to get the word out that this will be free transit! I don't think they should charge a fare. In the numbers I posted on the other page, the smaller numbers are with a fare and the larger numbers are with no fare. Someone asked me about this in this thread.

Since this is a replacement service (replacing existing transit services by four different organizations), it will have an almost guaranteed number of daily riders. The amount of development projected should also be eye-opening for members of City Council. It is a proven development magnet. I think the number of residential units they are projecting will be exceeded in 10-15 years. This will attract more outside developers to the core and lead to more high-rise development along the line.

What bus routes will this replace? Route numbers would be greatly appreciated.
What is the current ridership for those routes?
How are they going to pay for it? If they are going to apply for Federal Grants then they have to have final engineering design documents completed by October...which seems unlikely.

Having a FREE fare will be nice...but it really isn't free at all as the citizens will be paying for the operation with their property taxes...that might be something not politically possible unless they make the whole WSTA system FREE fare.

Having a FREE fare will be nice...but it really isn't free at all as the citizens will be paying for the operation with their property taxes...that might be something not politically possible unless they make the whole WSTA system FREE fare.

Your property taxes also pay for roads, but those are considered free.

Your property taxes also pay for roads, but those are considered free.

Exactly...so to complete the analogy you made...how do you think the rest of Winston would feel if all the roads except for 1 in downtown were toll roads...and yet you are paying for the free road in downtown Winston. So why not make all of them free?

The only way I can see them getting away with having a free streetcar is if the downtown alliance paid for about $1M a year to help out on the operation costs for the streetcar....but I don't see them doing that as it would practically wipe out the annual busget for the downtown alliance.

I don't see any problem with a free streetcar. If WS needs a way to fund the Free steetcar, seems like a 0.5% sales tax along the line would make sense(and cents).

I'm sure this is done in other places, I know Portland, OR has a free ride zone.

As far as the cost to ride, I don't think paying $1 to ride is a big deal, but charging $1.50 seems like a bad number. Make the amounts even to speed up loading.

I would assume that much of the costs could also be paid for by businesses and developments due to the existence of the streetcar. Much like the reopening of Fayetteville Street, in Raleigh. You reopen the street and all of the sudden you have a load of new [major] investments popping up, along with donations. Of course, someone needs to identify these opportunities and factor them in, as well as what percentage of the revenues should pay for the streetcar, but that should not be hard. If $1 million/year is all that W-S needs, then this project should be easy to deliver. There will always be obstacles, but I am sure that W-S will manage.

I don't see any problem with a free streetcar. If WS needs a way to fund the Free steetcar, seems like a 0.5% sales tax along the line would make sense(and cents).

I'm sure this is done in other places, I know Portland, OR has a free ride zone.

As far as the cost to ride, I don't think paying $1 to ride is a big deal, but charging $1.50 seems like a bad number. Make the amounts even to speed up loading.

A half cent sales tax would be nice...and could be used to ALL transit...not just the streetcar...do you think the citizens of Winston would pass such a tax?

I see the purpose of the street cars for conectivity. I just thik its a little ahead of its time....but if WS can pull it off, more power to'em.

On another note, I know Raleigh and Durham could benefit, for reasons posted by another forumer. Raleigh has many destinations day or nite. A street car system could conect the districts and bring them together. I could picture it now............ (for nite)maybe I don't wanna go to a restaurant in Glenwood south, I could catch a street car to the city market, the warehouse district or check out whats going on on Fayetteville street. (for the day) tourist can hop on a street car after visiting museums and go see a movie at the exploris or get a bite to eat. Then, there is NC State, St. Mary's and Meredith College to the west of DT and Peace College and Shaw U. which is DT and Saint Aug not to far away (I don't think Oakwood would like tracks going down their tree lines streets to St. Aug)

Please forgive me, for I am not trying to highjack this thread. I guess every major NC city can benefit and have a need for Street cars, if we are gonna use college students as the main reason, but there has to be more than just college kids that will present ridership.

WSTA doesn't do enough to take advantage of advertising, like many other transit services do. I've used WSTA before. It is a good service and seems to always be on time for me. They will have almost 6,000 guaranteed daily riders, due to the replacement of the other bus and van services. If they charged $1, they could break even. A free fare with advertising and a small increase in property tax for office buildings/hotels and sales tax for businesses (so they only pay when they make a sale) along the route would be a great way to pay for it and increase the number of riders. If you're already paying for it in your taxes, you're more likely to try it just because you're paying for it. I know from my own experiences; once you try transit, you'll find it is a cheaper and a better way to get around town. Some places charge $5-$25 or more for parking. The Medical Center charges for parking. An hour at a parking deck costs the same as a round trip fare and I know my car is safe. They have a lot of break-ins at the Medical Center.

People often say they pay taxes, but get nothing in return. A free transit service would be an example of them paying taxes and getting something in return. When you pay taxes, with some going to WSTA, you still have to pay to ride. You're paying twice. Free would be an easier sell. Finally one of those transit lines you're paying twice for will be free.! Other cities are doing this on select routes. WSTA does have a free van service, though they may charge for it now? I still like the idea of just those around the line paying for it in taxes. Places like Wake Forest, Speakeasy Jazz, BB&T, Burke Street Pizza, Mellow Mushroom, PTRP Research Park, ReynoldsAmerican, Twin City Steak House, Marriott Winston Plaza, Foothills Brewing, Wachovia and others around the line recieve the vistors from conventions or workers from the businesses or they themselves use it to go out for lunch or to go from building to building. A very small tax (and I do mean small tax) on a cup of coffee at Starbucks, a room at the Embassy Suites, or a beer at Burke Street Pub or a little extra to see live music at The Rubber Soul and dance at The 411 would be a great way to pay for it. A little extra on property taxes for office buildings should also be added. They will promote their location near this line to lease space. Even though Wake Forest doesn't pay taxes, this would be a way for the city to get some tax money from them and their $1 billion complex, if they agree to support this. I would image they would pay the most, but they would also get the most in return, by connecting their two research campus sites.

A half cent sales tax would be nice...and could be used to ALL transit...not just the streetcar...do you think the citizens of Winston would pass such a tax?

I would guess that this would not pass. Just a guess, but it seems like the folks here in NC don't like to try something new. What will happen, is when Charlotte shows the success of their system, the other NC Cities will want one too.

I truely hope the W-S streetcar is a success. Keep those updates coming!

Wanda Merschel sent it to the finance and public-works committees for discussion (delays). Council will be asked to adopt a resolution supporting streetcars on November 6th.

The line is 3.6 miles round trip between Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center and Piedmont Triad Research Park in downtown and will cost $52 million. They are projecting between 3,000 and 6,000 riders a day in 2010.

Extensions would include lines to Old Salem and the N.C. School of the Arts, Wake Forest University, the fairgrounds and sports venues, and Winston-Salem State University to the east.

HDR said streetcars will be a good tool for increasing the residential and economic development growth already under way in Winston-Salem's urban core and I agree. They will.

Wide city streets connecting the medical center and the research park on each end of downtown make streetcars a great way to move people. Streetcars can help build the lively and dense downtown city leaders have talked about, according to Charles Hales. "If you want to have intense urban development you can't do it with cars. There must be an urban form of transit in order to make this function," Hales said. Three years after Tacoma, Wash., added streetcars, more than 800 housing units are under construction in their downtown and another 1,000 are proposed along the line. "These projects are at least as much about catalyzing development as they are about increasing transportation service," he said. "Nothing touches streetcars in sparking development, and you've got a lot of potential for development left in downtown Winston-Salem."

Great update, Matthew :okay: Nice to see this thread coming back... I had almost forgotten :(

Good stuff. Why don't they make the whole thing light rail instead of streetcar. One of the articles said streetcar to Winston Salem State, that school should have light rail access too I think.
Furthermore, whats happening with a Triad transit system. Maybe a monorail from downtown Winston-Salem to downtown Greensboro? Whatever, definitely need some metro cooperation to fuel better growth patterns.

light rail costs nearly double that of a streetcar.

monorail will not be built in America for a long time. Las Vegas was an exception due to it being a mostly touristy type of transit (Disney). it has no real piratical use in a metro such as WS or GSO. a DMU or some sort of high frequency commuter rail would work best between WS and Greensboro.

honestly, i don't see transit as a huge thing in WS. i know i coudl be wrong, but when the bus pulls into the downtown transportation terminal, there are never any other buses there. on top of that, there are never any people there.

There are always a large number of people around the bus terminal when I'm there and I have used WSTA transit several times. I've also taken pictures for the forums from the moving busses. It's so easy to get an opinion of what a place is like or hear a great story about the city from long ago from talking to people on the bus. My only complaint about WSTA is the weekend night service. That does need improvement and these streetcars will help. This rail system will offer weekend night service. WSTA is the most used transit system in the Triad, based on total number of passengers each year and with it replacing several existing services from vans, to busses to rubber-tire trolleys, I think their numbers are very close. The upper end of their passenger estimates is if the service is free. The lower end of their prediction is for a fare service, like what is currently in place. This isn't a new route added. It is a replacement for five or more routes currently in operation. HDR can't afford to be wrong on any numbers. That could cost them when the next city is hiring and questions HDR's abilities or when Winston-Salem is looking for a consultant for the next project.

The streetcars are cheap and as they said, they are a good scale for downtown. The Wake Forest University route is a little longer and may require light rail. So you may see one light rail line and the rest as streetcars. It appears the city's long term goal may be replacing the entire bus system with streetcars and/or light rail?