If this is true I'm ashamed to be a Scouser - let alone a Liverpudlian. Fucking disgraceful. I thought we were above all this. I hope they find the twats and throw away the key.

.. Appalling. Bt thank god the poor lad wasn't at Old Trafford! :ohno:

Is this part of Liverpools image problem?

We've created a thread about a minor incident that magnifies the event further. No other city of citizens, as far as I'm aware, are so concerned are socially minded enough to do this.

Is it a strength of ours or a weakness?

Personally I think it's a strength of us as people, but too many people accentuate it and use it against us.

This should go in the defacto Liverpool FC thread "Hail Rafa".

Maybe we could use the Skybar to widen the issue, one thing I'd like to see is attacks on medics being punished as serverely as attacks on the police.

Is this part of Liverpools image problem?

We've created a thread about a minor incident that magnifies the event further. No other city of citizens, as far as I'm aware, are so concerned are socially minded enough to do this.

Is it a strength of ours or a weakness?

Personally I think it's a strength of us as people, but too many people accentuate it and use it against us.

This should go in the defacto Liverpool FC thread "Hail Rafa".

Maybe we could use the Skybar to widen the issue, one thing I'd like to see is attacks on medics being punished as serverely as attacks on the police.

Good point.

Shame on you Waterfront.

Let's start a lynch Waterfront thread.

If the incident is so serious I'll expect Merseyside Police to launch a full investegation and make arrests.

That would rely on them using one of the motorcycle escorts statement though "nothing happened".

I was there on saturday (in the United end), the atmosphere was just a tad hostile- and I mean from the Manc following. It seemed most were more interested in shouting abuse that supporting the team. Fair enough to a degree, but every time ive seen these two sides play a)United lose b) it brings out the worst in everyone. Some people just take it too far, its a game not a war

Spot on SJ.

It should deflect from Ambulances and their occupants being abused though, even if the abuse in this incident was largely verbal and intimating rather than actually violent.

I was there on saturday (in the United end), the atmosphere was just a tad hostile- and I mean from the Manc following. It seemed most were more interested in shouting abuse that supporting the team. Fair enough to a degree, but every time ive seen these two sides play a)United lose b) it brings out the worst in everyone. Some people just take it too far, its a game not a war

Well said. It is deeply shameful how peoples lives are so sad, empty and miserbale that they must take a beautiful game and completely soil it by acting like complete cunts. :ohno:

If you look at the 'evidence' and the 'statements' there are inconsistencies all over the place.

No doubt there were hostile shouts made by some wanks that made the ambulance staff fear forr their safety... but the ambulance report states that there was NO damage to the ambulance and the trip to the hospital was NOT delayed... all gets curious.

I have never known a brick (never mind a 'hail' of them) to do no damage at all... and I have never heard of a vehicle that could carry on it's mission unhindered whislt being rocked in an attempt to turn it over.

Most of the condemnations have been made by people who have been told what 'has happened' rather than what has been 'reported' as have happened.

None of the 'eye witnesses' have been named 'eye witnesses'

I do not think we have heard the whole story... and I feel that much of the hyperbole does actually stem from the Manchester Gruniad!

I am not an apologist for hooligan behaviour... if it turns out that what has been reported indeed turns out to be true then I would go along with Waterfront..... I am yet to be convinced that these events actually did though!

The story actually came from the hateful Red Issue website hours after the game.

Daniel Taylor has an agenda, no doubt he's read Red Issue and turned it into a story, a full 5 days later.

Taylor is the type of fella who'd have ran negative story about people based on skin colour 20 years ago.

The story actually came from the hateful Red Issue website hours after the game.

Daniel Taylor has an agenda, no doubt he's read Red Issue and turned it into a story, a full 5 days later.

Taylor is the type of fella who'd have ran negative story about people based on skin colour 20 years ago.

Isn't there some kind of board of standards this shoddy jounalism can be reported to?

The thing is Taylor uses the time honoured get out clause of being vague. Her's a paragraph

"The two paramedics - both Liverpool fans - have been described as "horrified" by what the trust described as the "hostility" once supporters realised Smith was in the ambulance with United's doctor Mike Stone. The vehicle was described as being rocked from side to side as drinkers rushed out of the King Harry pub, some apparently with the intention of turning the vehicle on its side."

I'd expect that level of writing in The Star.

The journalistic integrity of the Daily Star is infinitely superior to that of the low-brow gruniad Toad... always has been.

I was being flippant Tony!

A lad I used to work with used to bring the Guardian in every day, I'd flick through and spend far too much time lambasting articles in there - the only other newspaper that has that effect on me is The Mail.

..

Sorry Toadboy... the admonishment was not a serious one!!!

after three everybody build a bridge and get over it!!!!

Taylor's piece is a smear: a minor seemingly incident that has ended up on the front page of the newspaper.

His opening paragraph gives the game away: "The reputation of Liverpool fans took another pummelling last night when it was revealed that the ambulance taking Alan Smith to hospital has come under attack outside Anfield."

What is he on about? It's a remarkably similar sentiment to the one that opens the ManU supporters hate mag, Red Issue's article on the issue: "SCOUSERS SINK TO EVEN LOWER DEPTHS: Just when you thought it was no longer possible............... [sic, that's four ellipses, I think] Scousers tried to attack Smith's ambulance on Saturday so said one of the paramedics whom a friend of Red Issue is acquainted with."

Liverpool fans (allegedly) get up to no good, in a general context of Liverpool fans not having a bad record for hooliganism (in reality), and Taylor reports the incident in lurid terms and states withouth qualification that this is yet another pummelling (i.e., the incident was a truly awful as he is reporting) to Liverpool's (subtext: godawful, worthless, scumbag) reputation.

A couple of questions: does Liverpool FC have a magazine like Red Issue, one which thrives on hatred and bigotry - RAOTL, etc., don't seem to be like this - and can we be certain that an injured Liverpool player would have been applauded off the pitch by Man U fans at Old Trafford? Maybe I'm biassed, but I'm not so sure.

And, as for the shit in cans thing, did this happen? It's getting into Jewish blood libel/National Front stiring up hatred based on black rapes of white girls territory if not and it is being reported as fact.

I wasn't serious either.

The article and others over the past week are big examples of Liverpools weak position when it comes to making its case in the media.

Ironically, one journalist Oliver Kay, covered the nasty atmosphere around Saturdays match and addressed all involved. Oliver is Liverpudlian but saw no reason to lambast United while whitewashing Liverpool.

It was shit on a try first, then in cups, now its bog roll with shit on it. No evidence and in this age of video phones etc. there'd be something. The alarming thing is when respected (hahaha) media reports things as fact and people pick up on it.

Man Uniteds media machine make Goebbals look like an amateur.

As for vile vitriolic websites, Red Issue has no bed fellow, even the Urchins site is tame compared to them. God knows how incitement laws haven't been used against them before.

"The article and others over the past week are big examples of Liverpools weak position when it comes to making its case in the media."

yet another symptom of the deeper problem Liverpool suffers through being denied the chance to build a media sector as we discussed recently?

Thing is guys- why would the club release a statement, and the leader of the supporters club condemn the fans, if nothing had happened? Surely they would be the first to follow the logic we have and say: "hang on! Did this acutally happen?" Undoubtedly certain toilet paper, I mean newspaper, articles would add extra vitriol and nonsense for their own purposes, but something fairly serious must have taken place. Otherwise there would be ridiculous stories being made up, week in and week out. Surely?

Surely this Les Lawson (who presumably takes the club's and fans' reputation very seriously) would have said "hey! where are these reds fans you spoke of from the ambulance?"

Smith ambulance attack condemned
Smith faces months out recovering
Manchester United and Liverpool have issued a joint statement condemning the fans who attacked the ambulance taking Alan Smith to hospital at the weekend.
Smith, 25, suffered a broken leg and a dislocated ankle during United's 1-0 FA Cup defeat at Anfield.

The clubs' statement read: "These people aren't real fans of football.

"The actions of a few idiots should not overshadow the efforts of all involved to make sure Alan received the best treatment as soon as possible."

Reports in several newspapers on Thursday claimed the ambulance was surrounded by people who threw stones and bottles at it and even tried to rock it from side to side.

The people who attacked the ambulance are not genuine Liverpool supporters

Les Lawson, Liverpool Supporters' Club

The two paramedics - both Liverpool fans - were described as being "horrified" by the hostility shown once the culprits realised the occupants of the ambulance were Alan Smith and Manchester United's club doctor Mike Stone.

A spokesman for the Merseyside ambulance trust confirmed the attack: "It did not result in any delay in transferring the player to hospital but the trust cannot condone this type of behaviour while administering emergency treatment."

Smith, who later underwent surgery on the injury, was given a general anaesthetic before he left the stadium so was not aware of the attack on the ambulance.

Smith's road to recovery

Les Lawson, secretary of the Merseyside branch of the official Liverpool Supporters' Club, told BBC Radio Five Live: "The Liverpool supporters who were actually inside the ground gave Alan Smith a standing ovation as he left the field.

"As far as I am concerned, the people who attacked the ambulance are not genuine Liverpool supporters because you just don't do that sort of thing.

"You never know when you are going to need the paramedics yourself or for a member of your family, so how would they feel if mindless idiots came out and tried to shake an ambulance and throw missiles.

"These are just not genuine football fans. Words just fail you really.

"I don't think the relationship between the two sets of fans will ever improve really because there is a great rivalry and the fans just don't like each other," he added.

Laughable stuff yet again. The Mancs must have got beat eh? Unbelievable how one sided all this has been since that game.

Laughable stuff yet again. The Mancs must have got beat eh? Unbelievable how one sided all this has been since that game.

I can't believe it's Thursday and I'm hearing about it for the first time,something's not making sense here. :?

Christ, don't EVER take anything seriously from the Red Issue. It's pure scum. These are the same wankers who'll complain aobut us and your lot singing Munich songs yet they'll justify comparing City's relegation battles with the Kursk submarine tragedy and singing about your lot pissing on the dead at Hillsborough, on the basis that we have sang them in the past. Basically, eye for an eye attitude, instead of actually dealing with the issue in hand and legitimately wishing to put a stop to something.

United aren't the big team anymore. Their militant fans will do anything to keep them considered big.

Christ, don't EVER take anything seriously from the Red Issue. It's pure scum. These are the same wankers who'll complain aobut us and your lot singing Munich songs yet they'll justify comparing City's relegation battles with the Kursk submarine tragedy and singing about your lot pissing on the dead at Hillsborough, on the basis that we have sang them in the past. Basically, eye for an eye attitude, instead of actually dealing with the issue in hand and legitimately wishing to put a stop to something.

It's this game of claiming the moral high ground from all sets of fans, that gets my goat. It's true what you said though, as people need to put a stop to these chants. Maybe a law against such stuff :)

It is a little like being paraded to condemn racism... the slightest waver and you join the list of the condemned.

As I said... LFC and the Fan 'rep' was reactiing and commenting on what they had been told had happened.

Merseyside Police escort said nothing happened Blabs, probably meaning nothing worth noting.

Spot on dgnr8, Red Issue is vile.

United aren't the big team anymore. Their militant fans will do anything to keep them considered big.

IMO I don't think they ever were anyway,surely how many trophies a team wins makes you the biggest not how big your bank balance is and even then Madrid have over took them in that department,and as a neutral I think I can say that.

It is a little like being paraded to condemn racism... the slightest waver and you join the list of the condemned.

As I said... LFC and the Fan 'rep' was reactiing and commenting on what they had been told had happened.

Les Lawsons a wet blanket. loves the club, spends a fortune watching them etc. but he's a reporters dream, he'll open his mouth and unintentionally hang himself.

Completely blown out of all proportion. If that was a Liverpool player in an ambulance outside Old Toilet, it would have been bricked to bits like everything else is when we have to play there.
The media ran out of stories to print so they stole from a Man United forum.

The same goes for their desperate shit-thrown-from-top-tier-in-cups bullshit remarks. They're the most irritating club in world football and need to take their decline with dignity like everyone else.

United will always be one of the footballing Aristocracy, as will Liverpool. When I mention them not being a big team, I mean purely on a modern basis. They seem to have slipped back to where they were 2 or 3 years before they won the treble.

And they may have "only" won the EC twice, but their domestic record is why United are so big.

United will always be one of the footballing Aristocracy, as will Liverpool. When I mention them not being a big team, I mean purely on a modern basis. They seem to have slipped back to where they were 2 or 3 years before they won the treble.

No one can deny how big a club Man U are BUT the way the media continually tells us how massive they are and that they are the biggest club on the planet if not the universe, compared to such small clubs like Liverpool it gets a bit silly. Liverpool are recognised as big as Man U outside Britain and i'd say the two big clubs in Spain are the 2 biggest in the world.

See now Tuesday, that's the type of mentality that just won't get any respect and will leave neutrals like me to think Liverpool fans are as idiotic as United fans.

At the end of the day, whatever happened was by a bunch of dickheads. Don't start up with "if it was at Old Trafford muh muh muh" because you're making yourself out to be as much a neanderthal as the many who inhabit the corridors of The Red Issue.

Like when a handful of City and Liverpool fans made some noise during George Best's minute silence, we should all just shut the fuck up and blame the mindless idiots who committed the act and not tar the whole of their fanbase.

Well, United are a bigger club than Liverpool. Not more succesful, but they're certainly bigger. Christ I'm a city fan and even I can admit to United being one of the 4 biggest football teams in the World. Don't underestimate the bizarre (read - I don't understand why) Catholic link United have too.

Oh aye, the Munich disaster 'did' a hell of a lot for United too. If you see what I mean, without meaning to sound disrespectful.

Well, United are a bigger club than Liverpool. Not more succesful, but they're certainly bigger. Christ I'm a city fan and even I can admit to United being one of the 4 biggest football teams in the World. Don't underestimate the bizarre (read - I don't understand why) Catholic link United have too.

As i've just said OUTSIDE the UK we are just as big as United and thats a fact.

1. Real Madrid
2. Barcelona
3. Anyone from Juventus, Milan, Man U, Bayern, Liverpool.

Man U have great marketting that way surpasses us especially in other areas such as finance and other spin offs.

I dissagree entirely.

Your opinion sir but what makes a Big or being the biggest club?

Well I suppose that would be subjective in the end because there's no real definitve answer, what with there being so many different factors to take account of. In terms of trophy ware, the sole manner on which you class a club as being successful, well Liverpool undoubtedly beat United hands down there. They're still 5 or 6 league titles behind you aren't they? You've also won the UEFA more than them as well as the League cup, although I couldn't honestly say who's won more FA Cups.

But then you could also go on official fanbase. But this wouldn't be fair because if we were to do so and you looked at City's listed fanbase, I wouldn't be represented due to not having a city membership anymore. Doesn't stop me being a fan though does it.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is I don't really know how you would define a big club. But if we're just going off the word "big" and it's many different meanings, I would suggest the World top 4 would be 1. Real Madrid 2. Manchester United 3. Juventus 4. AC milan. If we're on about success though, and that being what really does matter at the end of a footballing day, then it'd probably have you up there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but only Real, AC and somebody else have won the EC more than you lot?

I think what should be looked at is how United have always been a huge team throughout the World, despite not having 5+ european cups and being second best to Liverpool and Arsenal. Basically, it seems United are the bigger team possibly due to Munich. Considering Liverpool's success, it strikes me as odd that United have this much bigger profile than anybody else in Britain.


One little point. If we're talking SOLELY about trophies making you a big team, then United and Liverpool and Real Madrid have fuck all to stand on. Rangers are actually the most successful team in World football. So tell you what, to end the debate (and to make sure we don't encourage any little football rivalry scrotes to ruin this discussion) , how about we both agree that everybody is inferior to Rangers?

It's called the Cliff Richard Syndrome... that strange affliction that sees anything popular or having success in the UK automatically translates to being the biggest in the world!

To be fair Man U have now transcended that perculiarly British thing, but their profile has always been enhance by being a media darling.. don't forget the horrible days in the 70s' when they were really shite, Granada had the footy franchise and they were on the box all the time... feeds going through to London etc... with constant 'excuses' as to why there was no camera to go to Anfield... cat stuck in tree down salford way etc... pathetic!

United have always been a huge team throughout the World

Since when? Certainly not before the 60's.

It strikes me as odd that United have this much bigger profile than anybody else in Britain.

only in Britain due to media favouritism. Even when Liverpool were the best you had all the attention from the media. I mean who can forget how many injuries Brian Robson had? :)

If we're talking SOLELY about trophies making you a big team, then United and Liverpool and Real Madrid have fuck all to stand on. Rangers are actually the most successful team in World football.

Not really because if we look at the International stage i.e. Europe were the big clubs can test themselves, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Milan and Liverpool have been to over 10 European finals each. Liverpool in 4 decades. Barcelona have been to 14 finals, 4 European cup finals but have won only one. So repuation wise they all have the monoply worldwide.

On a worldwide scale, they're pretty similar in fanbase. In the UK, United have more in the south and probably the north too but apparently* Liverpool recently topped the list due to the Champions League success. Plus, isn't www.liverpoolfc.tv the world's most popular sports team webpage?

*Various sources unknown at present.

It's ridiculous how Liverpool fans try to deny United's size. United are undoubtebly the biggest club in England, whether it be abroad or at home. Up until this year United had the biggest turnover of any club in the world. The reason for this? Their huge global popularity which makes them able to sell the most merchandise (at least up until last year). Compare the United figures with Liverpool's. Then United also have the biggest club ground in England at the moment- Old Trafford has had a capacity ofover 67,000 for several years now. If it was 80 or 90,000 it would probably be filled week in week out as it is at the moment. There is no way Liverpool are as big as United outside of this country. United are massive across the globe- so big that in a survey where people from a large variety of countries were asked to name what they thought of when they heard 'Britain' or 'British', several said Manchester United. I actually think that it's the type of football you play that is crucial to how marketable you are worldwide. United and Real Madrid, the two most popular clubs in the world, are both renowed for entertaining, attacking football with plenty of flair. Liverpool, however, are generally regarded as a club with a cautious style of play.

I agree about the impact of Munich on United's profile. I suppose the Busby Babes were kind of the first team of superstars to emerge from this country. When the team was broken up by this tragedy, people had a lot of sympathy for United and I suppose that's where the kind of romance began- kind of like the club was destined to get back to the top.United were the first English team to do particularly well in Europe and this definitely impressed people abroad. Also victories such as the 5-1 thrashing of Benfica in Lisbon in the 1960s- where they tore apart one of the best teams in Europe with a brilliant display of attacking football certainly lives long in the memory and certainly attracted people to United. There are very few famous Liverpool victories that are revered so much around the world. It's not just how successful you are in terms of trophies, it's how you play the game that interests people.

lets stop the my dick is bigger than yours argument and put an end to it...

It was wrong to throw missiles at an ambulance agreed.... worse things happen at sea. I think a bit of perspective is needed here!

It's ridiculous how Liverpool fans try to deny United's size. United are undoubtebly the biggest club in England, whether it be abroad or at home. Up until this year United had the biggest turnover of any club in the world. The reason for this? Their huge global popularity which makes them able to sell the most merchandise (at least up until last year).

What rubbish :) Who's denying Man u's size? Abroad biggest no! Turnover doesn't make you the biggest club trophies and reputation does in my opinion. We have as big a global following than you do. Also you make very little form Abroad if you look at your accounts. You biggest market is the attendance and the Uk and Ireland. I believe your TV channel and ventures in to asia have proved a failure. With the abroad issue thats why a German firm did a worldwide poll and Liverpool came 3rd in support.

Biggest crowds in Italy are Milan/Roma/Inter/napoli so are they considered bigger than Juventus?

United and Real Madrid, the two most popular clubs in the world, are both renowed for entertaining, attacking football with plenty of flair. Liverpool, however, are generally regarded as a club with a cautious style of play.

More bollocks if i may say AND what are you trying to say really? True in the 90's and some 60's seasons United where a very attractive side. Some how though Manc Revisionism has creeped in about Liverpool in the 60's, 70's and 80's as if they were some how cautious :) Rubbish really!

I suppose the Busby Babes were kind of the first team of superstars to emerge from this country.

Herbert Chapmans Arsenal of the 30's or Wolves in the 50's?

How you play the game? See is that what your saying then that United have ALWAYS been swashbuckling? HAHA You make me laugh as Liverpool have had many great teams thats probably why then in your deduction we are just as popular eh?

This is hardly a minor incident. Two quite large acts of football hooliganism by the same set of fans in the space of a 1 or 2 hours is pretty unusual. Especially when its a high profile person who is attacked AFTER being injured on the pitch. Things like this dont happen often and therefore it is a large incident, and YES it does further damage to the image of Liverpool fan's.

This is hardly a minor incident. Two quite large acts of football hooliganism by the same set of fans in the space of a 1 or 2 hours is pretty unusual. Especially when its a high profile person who is attacked AFTER being injured on the pitch. Things like this dont happen often and therefore it is a large incident, and YES it does further damage to the image of Liverpool fan's.

Don't say anymore please as You are a TIT!

i think in the grand scheme of things accura it is relatively minor, why not talk about how many shootings there have been or any recent muggings. There are far worse things going on in life.

to me it just re-itterates why i have fallen out of love with football.. it seems to monopolise the idiots. Lets take stock here Mnachester United hate Liverpool fans and vice versa such incidents have now become the norm for this fixture.

Lets move on and talk about positive stuff. if we want to continue this theme leave it for the numbskulls to discuss in the football forums!!

Well fair enough then. Obviously I'd much sooner nothing did happen. But it has been on the news and both clubs have released statements. I think they should've stopped and said "this is nonsense, some media dickheads have blown things out of proportion. Nothing happened. Please ignore." It only plays into the hands of the lying idiots who make stuff up to release statements in response to what they've said.

For christ's sake. This has been reported by the BBC! If this all nonsense then I'm inclined to write a very strongly worded e-mail. What is the point in a free media when utter shit is reported in supposedly respectable circles??? Paid for by taxpayers as well.

Don't say anymore please as You are a TIT!
When you get responses like that, you know you're right :yes:

i think in the grand scheme of things accura it is relatively minor
Perhaps, but not in football, and the sad truth is that this country is so addicted to the game that they would care more about David Beckham sticking his hand down his pants than they would about a potential civil war in Iraq.
Therefore, within the social structure this isnt a minor incident. And its all very well saying otherwise when your stood on the wrong side of the fence. If it had been an Everton player in that Ambulance, things would be very different.

When it comes down to it; an ambulance was ALLEDGEDLY shaken about by a few drunks according to a Man United forum. If that is true, then who cares? It's only a bit of shaking and wasn't life threatening.

Mancs brick Liverpool fans and buses at OT almost every year but nobody whines for days about it.

When you get responses like that, you know you're right

Haha really? Your nowt but a worm :) You commented on something that you haven't got a clue about and came to something that was totaly one sided. If you knew the facts of course you would know that Smith was clapped off the pitch when the fans realised what had happened. I mean i'm sure you can tell straight away from the stands right that he was suffering? I suppose you had to be there really. Funny yet again the next day the Sunday papers especially the Times, Manchester Guardian and News of the World having a go at the chants towards Smith while he was down, while conveniantly forgetting or maybe they just didn't hear it with selective hearing, the heysel, Michael Shields, and Hillsborogh chants from the away end. At the end them also storming the Anfield road doors while the police battoned them back but that could be due to the objects thrown from the top tier of the Anfield road stand or maybe the 1-0 defeat? But that never happens at OT!

Hooligans eh? I'm sure the 200-300 manc hools and rent a firm didn't come looking for it as they were walked to Lime Street singing Hillsborough, Shankly, murderers chants? I also heard a nice mob of 50 mancs ran through Stanley park when they realised that a similar crew of Liverpool hools were following them.

I have to mention as not to be totally biased the Munich waving by our fans as well during the game.

It takes two to tango yet the Media likes to portray it one sided for some reason? You don't hear of a van of kids being bricked and windows put in during the game at Old Trafford last time do you? Suppose it's not as sensationalist really eh?

"The ambulance crew were uninjured and no damage was caused to the vehicle."

A spokesman for Liverpool FC described it as the "actions of some mindless idiots".

He added: "Alan Smith was given an ovation off the field by all four corners of the ground.


Echo

Accura i would be no more bothered if it were an everton player... i completely concur with thoughts regarding Iraq. As i have already stated this is yet another sad inditement of a disease that is infecting the countries most popular sport... a disease which has been bubbling away under relative control but yet again the pariah's of society seem determined to spread.

football is dying a lsow painful death at the moment this is why i look elsewhere these days for my enjoyment. I will always be a supporter but the game i fell in love with is along time gone!

You commented on something that you haven't got a clue about and came to something that was totaly one sided.
I'm an A-level media studies student and I'm not a manc.

If you knew the facts of course you would know that Smith was clapped off the pitch when the fans realised what had happened.
I didnt say that all Liverpool fans were to blame for this, I said that it would do damage to the image of Liverpool fans, which it has.

Funny yet again the next day the Sunday papers especially the Times, Manchester Guardian and News of the World having a go at the chants towards Smith while he was down
And I suppose jeering at an injured person is a nice thing to do?

while conveniantly forgetting or maybe they just didn't hear it with selective hearing, the heysel, Michael Shields, and Hillsborogh chants from the away end.
Every team has nasty regular chants about their rivals. You cant go on a North End match for 5 times without hearing the words Blackpool scum or Dingle shits at least 20 times

Hooligans eh? I'm sure the 200-300 manc hools and rent a firm didn't come looking for it as they were walked to Lime Street singing Hillsborough, Shankly, murderers chants?
Obviously, it isnt nice, and I do condemn chants like that (I go on the Bill Shankley Kop every home match), but that does not justify the violence by Liverpool fans.

It takes two to tango yet the Media likes to portray it one sided for some reason? You don't hear of a van of kids being bricked and windows put in during the game at Old Trafford last time do you? Suppose it's not as sensationalist really eh?
Again, not nice, but the media doesnt care about that as much as they do a high profile football player like Alan Smith.

Obviously, it isnt nice, and I do condemn chants like that (I go on the Bill Shankley Kop every home match), but that does not justify the violence by Liverpool fans.

Or mancs?

football is dying a lsow painful death at the moment this is why i look elsewhere these days for my enjoyment.
I agree completely. Its being killed by fucking financial blah blah's. I nearly puke everytime I see those electric advertising boards at OT. They should be banned.

Having read through all the replies, I notice some of the Liverpool fans haven't condemned what happened on Saturday, on the contrary, they seem to be blaming it on everyone but Liverpool fans, or denying it actually happened as reported. Why am I not surprised?

BTW For those who believe Man Utd were a nothing team before the Munich air disaster, the biggest league gate in English football ever was in 1948.

83,260

Man Utd v Arsenal

A full ten years before the Munich air disaster.

Having read through all the replies, I notice some of the Liverpool fans haven't condemned what happened on Saturday, on the contrary, they seem to be blaming it on everyone but Liverpool fans, or denying it actually happened as reported. Why am I not surprised?

BTW For those who believe Man Utd were a nothing team before the Munich air disaster, the biggest league gate in English football ever was in 1948.

83,260

Man Utd v Arsenal

A full ten years before the Munich air disaster.

Arsenal did always have a good away following :)

Arsenal did always have a good away following :)

Not at Old Trafford though, as that game was played at Maine Road. :)

I had it reported to me before all this kicked off in the press.

Verbals, a few banged the sides of the van, 1 or 2 arseholes threw bottles.

Funny how a few dickheads mouthing off at an ambulance carrying a high profile footballer is more newsworthy than gobshites week in week out, physically and verbally assaulting ambulance staff. As usual the authorities, police, football clubs, fans etc. will clamp down on events, while society allows health workers to face threats and violence nearly every single day of their working lives.

Applying my scouse paranoia now I'd like to know where the Guardian, Echo, Post, BBC Radio, Sky Sports news, etc. where after the Liverpool fans minibus got hammered at OT the other week and the occupants assaulted, including 2 14 year old kids.

Or why an arsenal of weapons went on display in '99 after the urchin 'battlebus' got stopped by GMP stopped, while the weapons cache seized on the same day by GMP, from a van at Salford Precinct, during an operation against Man United hoolies escaped wipespread coverage.

Nothing excuses any of the bad behaviour but again doesn't it highlight the poor media base we've got and the excellent media base Manchester has and how that works?

so it made the news five days after the match,

no pictures of the damaged ambulance,

no interview's with the paramedic team,

no eye-witness account's

yet it made the NATIONAL news.

no wonder i am paranoid with the media

A few things

Not being surprised at the lack of condemnation not only shows prior prejudice it also misses the number of condemnations and qualified condemnations that actually appear throughout this thread... I have said same quite near the start... the issue about the 'incident' was not how violent it was or whether we should worry ourselves about such trifles, but DID IT ACTUALLY HAPPEN?... go back and read the fucking thread PROPERLY and check out the progeny of the press reports please?

Specific matches reverberating around the football arena where non of Liverpool's have???? only amongst the community of United fans friend... just as Liverpool's many glories do not give barca fans erections on recollection neither do Uniteds! No doubt real, Barca and Milan fans regail each other with tales of great European nights that we wouldn't know about!!!

was it not Charlton (or Charltons's ground at least) that has had the biggest league gate... not sure can easily be checked... tell us about Granada though lads, you seem to have long memories... tell us about a few united relagetion dog fights that had blanket coverage from Gerald 'Sinno' Sindstat and the boys whilst Liverpool were pissing the league at the other end?

can't argue about the ground.. great forethought... taken decades to build a mega stadium, whilst Liverpool have probably spent twice as much in the same time building a lego set/opera house!

so it made the news five days after the match,

no pictures of the damaged ambulance,

no interview's with the paramedic team,

no eye-witness account's

yet it made the NATIONAL news.

no wonder i am paranoid with the media
They have made a big deal out of this for sure you would think the fans had broke his leg fuck him.

they seem to be blaming it on everyone but Liverpool fans, or denying it actually happened as reported. Why am I not surprised?

What and let your shower of ***** off? Don't think so. Mind you you don't do anything do you? :down:

A bit of fairness is all i ask but obviously with you lot lets keep quiet about what your lot get upto eh?

BTW For those who believe Man Utd were a nothing team before the Munich air disaster, the biggest league gate in English football ever was in 1948.

Big deal Everton had 76,000 v blackpool one season and Liverpool use to get 60,000. Newcastle during this period had the highest average attendance so were they the biggest club then?

If a few fans have attacked an ambulance carrying a patient, then that is sick, but i'm very sceptical about the press and their overhyping of any type of incident where football is concerned.

Ambulance Police and Fire crews across the country are the target of mindless thugs every day usually drunk or on drugs.



Attacks on paramedics have risen sharply, up 50 per cent in two years. Health bosses say at least one ambulance worker is assaulted every day in the area. (http://www.paramedic.org.uk/news_archive/2005/06/news_item.2005-07-05.9802686363/view)

Having read through all the replies, I notice some of the Liverpool fans haven't condemned what happened on Saturday, on the contrary, they seem to be blaming it on everyone but Liverpool fans, or denying it actually happened as reported. Why am I not surprised?
Oh look another manc dig about scousers shifting blame. How surprising is that? I (a scouser) started this thread. If its true it's disgraceful, but as cambrian said - where is the damaged ambulance and the paramedics?

Just like a manc to claim the moral high ground. Very short (long in Liverpools case) selective memories. Remember this? Mancs attacking 64 year old grandad in Wolverhampton? And you call us scum. Lovable.


http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/205/205150_soccer_attack_suspect_caught_on_camera.html

No wonder you get bags of shite thrown at you. It happened in the same month in the same competition the Alan smith incident. I don't see any saintly virginal, holier than thou mancs condemning it. At the moment I'm fucking angry. All the national and local Manc media press is concerned about is casting Liverpool fans (and scousers in general) in a bad light. If it's justified - which (let's be honest) a lot of it is. I want us to debate it and hopefully change it, so the next time you cunt visit with you chants of '96 died at Hillsborough', 'murderers' chant and all the other vile shite a lot of mancs spout - we can resist the urge to sink to the same depths and expose (for once) an element of the man u support for the vermin they really are.

I think we need to remember a couple of things before people accuse Liverpool fans of failing to condemn the incident:

1. There seems to be no reliable media source.
2. Countless posters on this thread have already stated their condemnation if it did happen.


Also, I'm not sure as to why I should feel ashamed about what happened. I've done nothing wrong, therefore I am free from blame. That's just simple logic and I'm sick up to the eyeballs of people turning round and trying to tar everyone with the same brush. At the same time, I'm not surprised either given how Liverpool were involved: call me a whingeing scouser all you want, but there does seem to be a far more judgemental attitude towards Liverpool and its inhabitants than towards other places (the Ken Bigley farce is a classic example of this, whereby ordinary Liverpudlians were criticised over something which had NOTHING to do with them). I'll readily admit that some Liverpool fans were singing Munich chants, but some Manchester United fans were also singing Hillsborough chants. I find it EXTREMELY HYPOCRITICAL when supporters of one club try to claim the moral high ground over others concerning fan behaviour, because twat minorities exist at every club. This reminds me of the scorn directed at Liverpool on this very board because of a few morons breaking a minute's silence for George Best, as though other clubs are free from this cancer.

buscaptl speaks volumes about football nowadays - the problem is not just with the dickheads themselves but also with the media which gives their activites high priority and gives them the glory they don't deserve. The media has competely overlooked the fact that so many Liverpool fans applauded Alan Smith off the pitch and has instead concentrated on the small minority who jeered him and an ALLEGED incident involving the ambulance. I don't really like going to football matches anymore: the police and stewards treat you like shit and are on to you if you so much as pick your nose. Trash culture has infected football, but it is now widely-assumed that football itself is trash culture defined. In the pursuit of money and power, football's fat cats decided not to root out hooligans but instead to treat everybody as potential hooligans and revamp the game as a business. You see, that was so much easier in letting them get filthy rich; they never gave a shit about ordinary fans. What a fucked up world we live in.

Right- an eye witness account- I was in row 10, just to the rear of goal in away end- in the whole game 2 plastic bottles and a similar number of coins were thrown from above- THATS IT. I didnt notice any turds raining down, im sure word would have spread like wildfire. My biggest impression was that when it was obvious we were going to lose, my "compatriots" just resorted to "You killed your own fans", "Murderers" etc. When the Liverpool fans had left, the stewards got the old "Do the social know your here" routine. Nasty atmosphere, but thats all as far as i noticed. My missus is a scouser, she was there too but had to keep quiet when the goal was scored! I dislike idiots of all persuasions, hence this post to put the record straight

I'd just like to say thanks to everybody for degenerating this into exactly what I said it would become. You're all just having a fucking go at Mancs and Scousers in general. Grow up, for fucks sake. The idiots who did it should be punished, they should be condemned by the Liverpool support and Red Issue should fuck off with their inflammatory journalism. And the United fans coming here to defend their support, fuck off too because you're just as sodding bad. I was skirting the borders by even having the chat on this thread, but I tried to post from the neutral view I have yet everybody's starting another fucking Manc/Scouse cob on.

Really. It's fucking stupid and you all need to stop and think about this lunacy.

I'd just like to say thanks to everybody for degenerating this into exactly what I said it would become. You're all just having a fucking go at Mancs and Scousers in general. Grow up, for fucks sake. The idiots who did it should be punished, they should be condemned by the Liverpool support and Red Issue should fuck off with their inflammatory journalism. And the United fans coming here to defend their support, fuck off too because you're just as sodding bad. I was skirting the borders by even having the chat on this thread, but I tried to post from the neutral view I have yet everybody's starting another fucking Manc/Scouse cob on.

Really. It's fucking stupid and you all need to stop and think about this lunacy.


Never a truer word said!!! :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

I had it reported to me before all this kicked off in the press.

Verbals, a few banged the sides of the van, 1 or 2 arseholes threw bottles.



And they were probably Everton fans. ;)

I'd just like to say thanks to everybody for degenerating this into exactly what I said it would become. You're all just having a fucking go at Mancs and Scousers in general. Grow up, for fucks sake. The idiots who did it should be punished, they should be condemned by the Liverpool support and Red Issue should fuck off with their inflammatory journalism. And the United fans coming here to defend their support, fuck off too because you're just as sodding bad. I was skirting the borders by even having the chat on this thread, but I tried to post from the neutral view I have yet everybody's starting another fucking Manc/Scouse cob on.

Really. It's fucking stupid and you all need to stop and think about this lunacy.
Including me? I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to address the problems which exist for all clubs in football.

Oh look another manc dig about scousers shifting blame. How surprising is that? I (a scouser) started this thread. If its true it's disgraceful, but as cambrian said - where is the damaged ambulance and the paramedics?

Just like a manc to claim the moral high ground. Very short (long in Liverpools case) selective memories. Remember this? Mancs attacking 64 year old grandad in Wolverhampton? And you call us scum. Lovable

Oh dear. I was refering to Liverpool fans not scousers. :bash:

Yeah. Liverpool fans are all Irish and Scandinavians. Pongolle admitted as much himself. :D

Oh dear. I was refering to Liverpool fans not scousers. :bash:

Same thing.

Yeah. Liverpool fans are all Irish and Scandinavians. Pongolle admitted as much himself. :D

:sleepy: Whatever.

^See. Irish accent.^ ;)

Same thing.

Maybe I should have wrote.

"Oh dear. I was referring to some Liverpool fans not scousers".

Read through this thread for an idea of the kind of Liverpool fans I'm referring too.

Anyway, I was pleasantly pleased when the Liverpool fans applauded Alan Smith as he left the pitch, so many thanks to the Liverpool fans for that gesture.

To finish I'd like to wish both Alan Smith and Momo Sissoko swift and complete recoveries.

It's nice when you explore the full landscape rather than simply looking at the same old dark and restricted view........


you can either swallow all the shite in the press uncritically... which will eventually colour your every impression.... or you can make an effort to discover said full landscape for yourself... more rewarding and infinately more revealing of the truth... Liverpool isn't a bad place, in fact many say it is an extremely good place... so can it be true that we produce so many scum bags that it scares the gruniad?... of course we don't

I remember when the Kop would happily sing we're the best behaved supporters in the land... without a hint of irony.

This is what I call truly shocking,can you imagine the press if this had been in Liverpool but it will soon be forgotten.

Police stand guard outside the house in Paisley
A man who raped his unconscious teenage stepdaughter as she lay dying from a head injury has been jailed for nine years at the High Court in Glasgow.
Sentencing Judge Lord Philip told George McKee, 50, he had committed an "appalling crime" which filled members of the public with "horror".

McKee admitted raping Kerry Muchan, 14, in her Paisley home on 23 July, 2005 while she was unconscious.

Kerry died soon after the rape from a head injury caused by a fall.

Lord Philip said: "Any sentence I impose has to reflect the revulsion and horror society feels at this kind of behaviour."

Kerry was drunk and had fallen several times before she was raped.

Lord Philip said: "Instead of looking after her and being concerned for her condition and seeking medical help, you took advantage of her complete helplessness and raped her when she was in a state of complete unconsciousness."

In addition to the nine-year sentence, McKee will be monitored for three years after release.

Stair fall

He pleaded guilty to raping Kerry at her home in Dalskeith Avenue, Paisley.

The court heard Kerry had fallen ill after taking a cocktail of alcohol and drugs.

Her death less than two and a half hours after being raped was caused by head injuries sustained during falls.

These included a fall down stairs after which McKee took her to his bed and raped her.

He was found in bed with his stepdaughter by a relative.

Still alive

When paramedics arrived, they found a faint pulse.

However, she died later in the Royal Alexandra Hospital.

A postmortem examination revealed she was still alive when her stepfather raped her.

It found she had horrific injuries consistent with being raped with considerable force.

The court was told McKee and Kerry's mother Lorna Muchan had lived as man and wife and he treated the girl as his own.

Fucking horrid. How could the vile pig get such a short sentence? In addition to the horrid act, he also contributed to her death by deliberately not acting to help her.

I don't think this is a Liverpool thing. It's the deeply sad nature of our society that a barely substantiated incident involving a rich and famous sportsman, in which no harm whatsoever was caused to him, takes precidence over the rape and death of a young girl (-and there will be many other stories we wont have been told about becuase the spoilt footballers and chavvy celebs are much more important.)

I'm fucking sick of all the consumerist obsession and hero worship in the media and in our society in general. So much for our supposedly civilised and advanced country- what a load of philistines we really are! It is things like this that have completely put me off being all nationalist calling myself British. This country is full of cunts.

As for the Liverpool thing- Horrible Man Utd fans will undoubtedly have jobs in the regional BBC so it's not unreasonable to think that Liverpool might suffer a bit (purely becuase of the football rivalry... -this is pathetic as well. I love football, but hatred and violence- what the fuck have these things got to do with it????)

:gaah:

That's my point things like this are happening all the time in this perverted country but when something happens here the media circus goes into overdrive,this story will soon be forgotten as always and then something will happen here and it will stick and be thrown at us at every given opportunity,a great example was the Boris Johnson thing,a minutes silence isn't observed at Old Trafford in a match between England and Wales and we get a negative article about us that the whole country get to read about how fucked up we are and of course everything Boris says is latched onto by the people in this country that seen obsessed with our downfall as if it's gospel,and people wonder why many scousers look at the rest of this country the way they do.