Lets Open up Makkah and Madina, Time for expansion of Infrastructure! [Archive]

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 05:01 AM

smussuw

February 24th, 2006, 07:01 AM

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 07:15 AM

source26

February 24th, 2006, 09:37 AM

yeah more islamic hatred of foreigners dressed up as prophecy

Halawala

February 24th, 2006, 10:02 AM

I understand what UofT is talking about. What about promoting and spreading Islam around the world, so that new Muslims can come to Makkah and worship as they want. During the Hajj more than 3-4 million people from ALL the world's country's visit Makkah. Then they share their experience to the rest of the world.

Lets show the world that Islam is the greatest relegion in the world!!!

persian

February 24th, 2006, 03:08 PM

shayan

February 24th, 2006, 03:11 PM

dont bother persian just be glad that you are persian :D

Skyline-BRN

February 24th, 2006, 03:15 PM

what do u mean allah didn't let them. god never tells anyone what to do and what not

Makkah and Medina are meant to be a sanctuary for Muslims.

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 04:41 PM

Actually Smussuw the quote talks about "Idolalters" ?, From my knowledge most of the world's religions can't be considered Idolaters?, This could be in reference to the pagans that inhabited Makkah in Pre-Islamic times.

I am serious about this issue, because opening up the cities with more traffic and better infrastructure is a WIN-WIN situation.

I think during the Ottoman era, Non Muslims were allowed entry to the Grand Mosque can anyone verify this?

Halawala

February 24th, 2006, 04:47 PM

^^^ No, no... the Quran specifically states that Makkah (and the Great Mosque) is only for Muslims (who are pure)... There is a specific verse from the Quran, plus a specific Hadeeth..

Also, as a Muslim I would be offended if I saw a non-Muslim in Makkah and Madinah, which are Islam's two Holiest sites. They are places which are meant to be reserved for Muslims only--not some sort of Disneyland opened to all how want to come..

B-Patriot

February 24th, 2006, 05:07 PM

Care to cite that Quranic verse or hadeeth? ^^

HiJazzey

February 24th, 2006, 05:27 PM

Not true

There's nothing in the Quran that says, directly or indirectly, that non-muslims are not allowed in Mecca or Medina. The 'aya smussuw refers to, talks about the Holy Mosque in Mecca not the city. What it says is: from that year onwards, pagans are not allowed to enter and perform pagan rituals. Heck, non-muslims are even allowed to enter the prophet's mosque, not only the city.

Don't take my word for it, I'll even give you a fatwa by none other than Bin Baz, one of the most conservative scholars you can find:

سئل الشيخ عبد العزيز بن باز عن حكم دخول الكافر المساجد فأجاب: "أمّا المسجد الحرام؛ فلا يجوز دخوله لجميع الكفرة؛ اليهود، والنصارى وعباد الأوثان، والشيوعيين، فجميع الكفرة لا يجوز لهم دخول المسجد الحرام؛ لأنّ الله سبحانه وتعالى يقول: ﴿يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا﴾ [التوبة: 28]، فمنع سبحانه من دخولهم المسجد الحرام، والمشركون يدخل فيهم اليهود والنصارى عند الإطلاق، فلا يجوز دخول أي مشرك المسجد الحرام، لا يهودي، ولا نصراني، ولا غيرهما، بل هذا خاص بالمسلمين. وأمَّا بقية المساجد فلا بأس من دخولهم للحاجة والمصلحة، ومن ذلك المدينة، وإن كانت المدينة لها خصوصية، لكنها في هذه المسألة كغيرها من المساجد، لأنّ الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم ربط فيها الكافر في مسجد النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، وأقرَّ وفد ثقيف حين دخلوا المسجد قبل أن يسلموا، وهكذا وفد النصارى دخلوا مسجده عليه الصلاة والسلام، فدلَّ ذلك على أنه يجوز دخول المسجد النبوي للمشرك, وهكذا بقية المساجد من باب أولى إذا كان لحاجة، إما لسؤال، أو لحاجة أخرى، أو لسماع درس ليستفيد، أو ليسلم ويعلن إسلامه، أو ما أشبه ذلك.

والحاصل: أنَّه يجوز دخوله إذا كان هناك مصلحة، أمَّا إذا لم يكن هناك مصلحة؛ فلا حاجة إلى دخوله المسجد، أو أن يخشى من دخوله العبث في أثاث المسجد، أو النجاسة فيمنع"

Halawala

February 24th, 2006, 05:34 PM

^^SURE!!

The following is a quote from http://islam.about.com/od/hajj/f/mecca.htm :

The ban on non-Muslim visitors is mentioned in the Qur’an as follows: "Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...." (9:28). This verse specifically refers to the Grand Mosque in Mecca; later scholars have included Madinah in this ruling as well. There are some Islamic scholars who would permit exceptions to this general rule, for trade purposes or for people who are under treaty permission. There is also some debate about the exact area and borders of the restricted area(s). The government of Saudi Arabia, which controls access to the holy sites, has decided upon a strict ban on both cities in their entirety.
Restricting access to Mecca and Madinah is intended to provide a place of peace and refuge for Muslim believers and preserve the sanctity of the holy cities.
At this time, millions of Muslims visit the cities each year, and additional tourist traffic would simply add to the congestion and detract from the spirituality of the pilgrimage visit.

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 05:47 PM

I understand During Hajj it should be only be open to Pilgramages, But I honestly think the best way of Dawah is to have people visit and understand Islam.

Again that quote Halwala mentions "Idolaters", These are people with many God's and is probably mentioning the PRE-Islamic Pagans. Most of the World's religion's can't be classified as Idolaters.

Imagine what it could mean for the cities as well, WE ARE IN DIRE NEED TO BUILD WORLD CLASS CITIES IN MAKKAH AND MADINA.

safqa_tijariya

February 24th, 2006, 05:53 PM

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 06:49 PM

No there is a difference between the People of the Book and Idolaters your confusing two very distinct entities, regardless of the matter.

what do you guys think of the expansion in Makkah?? All i see are Buildings being constructed around it?, kind of leaves you to wonder if there is room for expansion?

smussuw

February 24th, 2006, 07:06 PM

Again that quote Halwala mentions "Idolaters", These are people with many God's and is probably mentioning the PRE-Islamic Pagans. Most of the World's religion's can't be classified as Idolaters.

As far as I know even christians are included as idolaters because they believe in trinity.

I agree though about ur point in developing Meeca they should have a master plan for it. A friend suggested that someone should give Sheikh Mohammed a plan to develop mecca and send it to King Abu Dhabi.

Not true
There's nothing in the Quran that says, directly or indirectly, that non-muslims are not allowed in Mecca or Medina. The 'aya smussuw refers to, talks about the Holy Mosque in Mecca not the city. What it says is: from that year onwards, pagans are not allowed to enter and perform pagan rituals. Heck, non-muslims are even allowed to enter the prophet's mosque, not only the city.

The whole city is a Haram and most of the Islamic scholars supported this view as far as I know. but who knows, it all depend on how Islamic scholars interpret it. We are too ignorant to give fatawas about this:dunno:

HiJazzey bin baz also said stupid things like the earth not being round... i personally don't like to listen to a guy who doesnt know what he is talking about...

I am curious about ur Islamic school.

First of all you dont have the right to talk about respected Islamic scholars even if u think that they were wrong in some of their points. You dont even have .00001% of their islamic science.

uve said the same thing about Mohammed Abul wahhab. I wonder who is ur perfect Islamic scholar :|

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 07:15 PM

Okay, So why don't we try to draw up Plans into how Makkah should be built?

I'm serious!, If there is anyone here who has close ties to the Royal Family in the UAE or even Saudi I"m sure we can do something.

Lets start discussion on how to expand it and i'm quite serious, from my knowledge the royal families actually read all letters and suggestions with regards to the two Holy Mosques.

Send it to whomever and get whoever to build it, BUT we definetly need to start thinking how to build a world class city.

You guys realize per square meter of Makkah is more expensive than any real estate in Manhattan, Hong Kong or anywhere else in the world.

Yet you have rusty buildings from the 70's that are only 7 storey's tall surrounding the Holy Mosque!.

nomarandlee

February 24th, 2006, 07:28 PM

Non muslims arent allowed to enter Makka and Madina not because Saudi Arabia wants to but because Allah didnt allow them

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean spritually. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

Ohh yah right i never knew thisOhh yah right i never knew this

Jeeze, even I knew this. It was a great progressive idea but unfortunatly some like smussuw are still back in the 7th centuary and like the discrimination and exclusivity that it provides the likes of him.

Why act like "the other" is too dirty or too much a threat this day in age to dare enter the city I am not sure. You would think this day in age the xeno-phobia of it all would be widely considered a past historical necessity or reality but some want to live long in the past.

The only loser of the edict is really Islam itself when forigners are banned from even trying to appreciate or get an understanding of the experiance such an important place in Islam, all this as a result of arrogence and discrimination.

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 07:35 PM

Nomar, the talk has been civil so far

Don't ruin this thread with a flame bait, As you can see there are differing intrepretations as to where the boundary of the "Muslim refuge" lies, and exactly which groups of people are not allowed entrance to the City.

From my knowledge during the Ottoman era, there were plenty of Chinese and far eastern visitors to Makkah and Madina.

You have to understand in the Pre - Islamic era there were plenty of Idolaters that called Makkah their home, The verse in the Quran can quite simply mean those Idolaters and not modern day religious groups.

Anyways This is my vision of Makkah
http://www.wallpaperlinks.be/img/mes_wall/sw02-city01-1280.jpg

nomarandlee

February 24th, 2006, 07:43 PM

smussuw ....As far as I know even christians are included as idolaters because they believe in trinity.

Refreshing to see an admittance that disregards all that "people of the book" nonsense and calls them what they really are KAFFIRS and INFIDELS!!!!!

Well, since Jews don't beleive in Jesus or the "trinity" (maybe one should learn about such matters yea?) they are still ok in your book right smussuw?

smussuw

February 24th, 2006, 07:52 PM

being idolaters doesnt contradict with being "people of the book"

ur harted radar doesnt miss anything does it :D

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 07:55 PM

smussuw

February 24th, 2006, 07:57 PM

Okay sir :D

consult EMAAR :cheers:

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 08:01 PM

Nomar I'm going to have to ask you to leave this thread, the Mods at Mid East section are very stringent and your behaviour will lead to the thread getting closed, Its not fair that whenever you like you come down here and Troll and Close discussion boards!, Its selfish of you!.

In this day and age I swear that's the only chance Makkah has,

EMAAR going Burj on Makkah!!

But what about the Current Grand Mosque, I think we can use with extra Floors on the Open Marble Area..

Kuwaiti

February 24th, 2006, 08:03 PM

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 08:11 PM

Mecca and Medina wouldnt open its doors to non Muslims.

Anyhow what the heck you want with these two cities lol?

And that picture you showed would never happen. Sorry to burst your bubbles but having skyscrapers everywhere is too costly and having flying cars would cause pollution and accidents each second. Were already sick of stupid drivers on land...

Anyways :D

A) Makkah and Madina are not peoples that won't allow entrance to people, that decision lies in our hands to intrepretate what we know to application

B) You realize that Pic was for Jokes?, Need to work on your humour

C) Well this is what I want perhaps we can build floors on the Open Marble Area you see below

http://www.islam.tc/images/makka_psh__512.jpg

Kuwaiti

February 24th, 2006, 08:16 PM

LOL I know you were joking but I should just add imagine women driving flying cars :rofl:

LOL ok ok forget it...

Anyways no Mecca and Medina shouldnt be opened to non Muslims. Sorry, were still friends though... :D

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 08:20 PM

I respect your opinion its fine with me, But Islam is meant for all of Humanity and Makkah is THE Holy site of Islam. common sense entails it be available for all people to learn and educate themselves about Islam.

nomarandlee

February 24th, 2006, 08:33 PM

SMUSSUW and ALL of you Can you please do me a favour and NOT BITE on Nomar's Flaming ?, Please I dont want this thread to be closed.

More discussions on how to Improve Makkah's Infrastructure PLEASE>>

sure bud, smussuw says that non-Muslims are unclean and impure and that it is ok to discriminate and be xeno-phobic. And I am the one flaming, sure. Smussuw message is indeed clear, "keep the other OUT". If the Chinease banned all non-Chinease from the Forbidden city that would be seen as xeno-phobic. If the Vatican didn't allow non-Catholics inside St.Peters that would be xeno-phobic. If Jews kept all non Jews out of jersulam that would be xeno-phobic. One can make all the justficiations they want but don't ask anyone on the outside to not see it for what it very well looks like no matter how you dress it up.

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 08:36 PM

Your Back :(

Kuwaiti

February 24th, 2006, 08:41 PM

*UofT*

February 24th, 2006, 08:47 PM

GUYS IS IT JUST ME OR HAVE THEY CHANGED THE DESIGNS OF ABRAJ AL BAIT!!!

CHECK OUT THIS SITE http://www.zamzamtower.com/

IT'S SO SIMILAR TO ABRAJ THE SIDE TOWERS BUT THE ONE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE IS NOTHING LIKE ABRAJ RENDERS!!

safqa_tijariya

February 24th, 2006, 09:47 PM

The thing is, Mecca and Medina's only 2 sites which attract millions of people are the Grand Mosque of Prophet Mohammad and the Kaaba.

Most of the historical aspects of Mecca and Medina have been destroyed so nobody starts "worshipping them" :|

Anyways I agree in one thing: Mecca and Medina should rebuild its historical sites to add a little flavour of religion to the city as well as maintain the two holy mosques properly. Infrastructure should also be improved etc etc. Thisll all happen, but what will never happen is allowing non Muslims inside, but it might change since last Hajj CNN reporters were granted access to Mecca.

totally agree with you man, good for us kuwaitis we care about culture :D.

Seriously they should rebuild the historical buildings of mecca and make a big project to promote and preserve local heritage (like a heritage village built the traditional way). then they should force the building owners to destroy their buildings and build new more modern ones.

By the way, most of the building owners of mecca are either locals or from riyadh, the locals are very poor despite having buidlings (they hardly make profit only was a year, during hajj) and the ones in riyadh most of them don't care about makkah, all they care about is making money even if the hujjaj are having a hard time or makkah looks like a mess....

Halawala

February 24th, 2006, 10:46 PM

^^ Actually I agree with some points above.. But, ever since Islam started spreading since almost 1450 years ago, Makkah and Madinah were off limits to non-Muslims. (there might or might not be occasional lapses over time in which non muslims ventured though) but for the vast majority of times, Makkah was off limits.

Why now, in 2006, almost 1450 years later, WHY do u want to open the cities to non-muslims--knowing the fact that
a. islam is the world's fastest growing relegion.
b. ALL of the converts to Islam converted to Islam WITHOUT ever first entering Makkah
c. Makkah is already a congested place traffic wise and residential occupancy-wise, why create more havoc for the people living there
d. People can become educated about Islam without entering Makkah.. There are thousands of other mosques and Islamic museum around the world.
e. THE QURAN and the vast majority of relegious scholars issued fatwas PROHIBITING non-muslims from entering Makkah.

safqa_tijariya

February 25th, 2006, 03:36 AM

Ozcan

February 25th, 2006, 04:02 AM

^ Non muslims arent allowed to enter Makka and Madina not because Saudi Arabia wants to but because Allah didnt allow them

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean spritually. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
Ohh yah right i never knew this
The verses of the Quran are divided into two parts:

1. Muhkem

These verses are unalterable (can never be changed) and amount to about 25% of the Quran.

2. Muteshabih

These verses are subject to change and amount to about 75% of the Quran.

Because I'm not an Islamic scholar, I don't know if that verse you mentioned belongs to Muhkem or Muteshabih.

smussuw

February 25th, 2006, 04:30 AM

Muteshabih means the ability to interprete the verse in different ways, ur kinda right though.

This is applied in the verse Ive provided too. For example what do they mean by the haram mosque, do they mean the whole city or the mosque only. What does it refer to when God said idolaters, does it mean all the non muslims or christians and jews arent included.

those kind of stuff.

Ozcan

February 25th, 2006, 04:36 AM

ur kinda right though.
I read that in a book, written by one of Turkey's most prominent Islamic scholars. I never make things up. ;)

*UofT*

February 25th, 2006, 07:47 AM

Harun Yahya is Turkish as well ;)

That's the point i'm trying to make, Many things are open to intrepretations and should be debated.

Saudi always takes the most conservative approach well atleast to the two Holy cities.

If it is determined that some of the rules can be adjusted we should look into it if its appropriate for the succesfull education to non-muslims about Islam.

Kuwaiti

February 25th, 2006, 10:26 AM

Chalaco

February 28th, 2006, 03:53 AM

Tourism is a really good alternative if there's no other way. I guess a good example which is similar to this is the Vatican City which is beautifully kept and tourist are able to tour it. However, I see that there is opposition to this due to the Quran and it is very respectable. In my opinion it'd be lovely to go to Makkah and see that enormous mosque, how amazing it must be.

Greetings

Zohair

October 29th, 2007, 03:55 AM

Could the Pope leave any non-christian (i forget: Anyone out of the high clergical leaders of Catholics)
to enter The Sanctury or the hidden basements of the St Paul Cathedral?

I don't think so.

Makkah is totally different, because it has nothing to be hidden!

All people can go to the web and get photos of the interior of Kaaba.

So. simply, no need to allow non muslims to enter.

If someone of them want this, simply he can convert to Islam!.

metal gear

October 30th, 2007, 07:36 AM

Zohair

October 30th, 2007, 08:06 AM

Qatar Son 333

October 31st, 2007, 07:28 PM

Lol great comment there but isnt haram which translates to muharam which almost obviously explain the banning of non-Muslims entering the mosque not city ???

Joop20

November 7th, 2007, 10:11 AM

firstly no arguing that allowing non muslims to mecca and medina is unacceptable in islam...................some say that extends to all of arabia............almost none say it should be excluded to the mosqe's buildings simply because mecca and medina are harams (not bounded by structer boundaries)
secondly ............tourism?......get a better reason than that.

Some argue that Jerusalem is a Haram as well, so what do you suppose we do with that? Bann it from non-muslims as well? I can perfectly understand you dont want non-muslims to enter the holy sites, but banning them from an entire city is silly.
So many opportunities to create more understanding in the world for the Islam, so little of those opportunities are taken... Or as normanandlee stated in this thread:

'The only loser of the edict is really Islam itself when forigners are banned from even trying to appreciate or get an understanding of the experiance such an important place in Islam, all this as a result of arrogence and discrimination.'

What happens to a non-Muslim who accidentily ends up in Mecca anyways?

metal gear

November 7th, 2007, 12:28 PM

^^that does not change the facts...................there are manny other ways to be guided to islam.......................mecca and medina are a reward to those who do...........only

how can u go to mecca traversing the desert accidentily?................:nuts:

Halawala

November 7th, 2007, 02:41 PM

What happens to a non-Muslim who accidentily ends up in Mecca anyways?

Just in case a non-Muslim accidently misses the 100000 signs and "only" highway to Makkah from Jeddah, he can just take an exit and turn back :D

Or maybe he accidently enters the Grand Mosque and accidentaly snaps pictures... that is a differnent story.

About Jerusalem: We cant ban non-Muslims from entering; its already occupied by Jews.

Khanrak

November 9th, 2007, 08:50 AM

Oh my God, some of the views on this board are a bit scary. "if you want to see it, then simply convert to Islam" what??

As for the example of non-Catholics not being allowed to enter the Sanctuary of St Pauls cathedral - thats true, but Muslims are still very much allowed to enter the Vatican City, and the rest of St. Pauls Cathedral.

But nothing will change in Saudi because the Wahabbi interpretations of Islam forbid all non-Muslims from entering the two cities on the grounds that non-Muslims are all idolators. While the majority of Muslims elsewhere are not nearly as conservative as the Saudis, it simply doesnt matter. The rest of us may want to allow non-Muslims into Makkah, but as long as the Saudis are in control, Wahabbi beliefs regarding the purity of the two cities are en force. Thus, if we want to allow non-Muslims in, we should kick the Saudis out :) Not such a terrible idea in my mind.

But really, if we keep the Grand Mosque off-limits for non-Muslims, but let them enter Makkah, what would be left to see? The city is actually quite ugly, and the Saudis have done a splendid job of destroying anything of historical interest. And thank goodness they did, otherwise I'd be worshipping those buildings for sure!

So in conclusion, its unfortunate that the worlds 1.1 billion Muslims who are not Saudis have been completely disregarded on the issue of access to Makkah. Likewise, other major sects and interpretations of Islam are given no credit, and only Wahabbi theology is tolerated in regards to any issue concerning the Mosque and Makkah.

Halawala

November 9th, 2007, 12:41 PM

One major difference:

Jerusalem: Three major relegions (Islam, Christianity, Jews)
Makkah: Islam and only Islam

Do the math ;)

metal gear

November 10th, 2007, 11:15 AM

But nothing will change in Saudi because the Wahabbi interpretations of Islam .

.

ok .............now we know who u are..............................:nuts:

Riyadhi

November 10th, 2007, 06:03 PM

He sounds like shiite to me. Most of the Lebanese wont say this kind of stuff about Saudi except shiites.... I could be wrong though!

ibu4u

November 11th, 2007, 07:11 AM

Why doesn't Saudi Arabia build exceptional infrastructure in the Holy cities of Makkah and Madina and open it up to the world community at large. Lets share the best of Islam has to offer and further educate the world of what Islam is about. Lets preserve Islamic heritage sites and have people visit them. Imagine a Saudi Arabia that is able to capitalize on these ventures, and at the same time share what the best the world has to offer to all peoples?

I understand During Hajj we would have to keep it strictly for Muslims, but during other months why not have Makkah and Madina bustling with people??, Makkah and Madina have always been the center point of Human trade/commerce and the place where ideas have came together.

Imagine the Industry the Saudi's can create in opening up their cities and borders and inviting the world to truly understand that country. We would all be better off when the world is able to view our religion in its entirety!. Imagine Japanese Tourists learning about Islam in Makkah and visiting places where some of Islam's most noticeable events took place.

Really have to start reminding ourselves that the best Dawah is education to those that are ignorant of your religion. These days most of the world is Ignorant of Islam.

You may call it a booming tourism industry, I call it a Booming Dawah industry and hey the prophet too was a Merchant ;)

Dear Brothers/Sirsters

After reading complete thread i come to the conclusion that i have to answer this in logical and cumunity rules and requlation way! i hope i can find way to convince some of you.....lets hope insha-allah

Lets not talk about religious point of view....lets talk about community rules and regulations and logical point of view that why non muslims are not allowed to enter in holly places (makkah and madinah)

lets say every community and country has its rules and regulations, when u want to join that community or want to enter your chosen country you need to fullfill some of their requirements, lets say you want to enter USA, how you will enter USA, first you will goto US embasy apply visa and when they ask you to complete their visa requirement or other formalities you will fullfill it or else they will reject your requirement! they will not allow you to enter there! in such case you will not have any point to fight with them, either to fullfill their requirement to enter their country or stay home! similarly Islam has made some rules and regulations, unless u wont fullfill those rules you will not have full previlage to get all its blessings....something like if are not a registered user of this site you wont have right to answer any post or you will have certain restrictions that the registered users wont. similarly every human is welcome to makkah and madinah, only thing they have to fullfill the visa requirement to enter makkah and madinah! and what is that visa requirement! very simple just do "SHA'HAADA" that "LA-ILAHA-IL-LLALLAHO-MOHAMADUR-RASULALLLAH" say by tongue and accept it by heart....after that you will have full permission to enter to these two holly places. so dont say that its not correct that non muslims are not allowed to enter makkah and madinah! everyone welcome! just fullfill the above requirement get full previlage!

With many thanks to all of you for giving me chance to express my thougths!

November 11th, 2007, 01:44 PM

In my opinion, the verse was revealed (as someone stated before) to discontinue the pagan practices(worship, pilgrimage,rituals) in and around Ka'aba and thats the meaning we get if we take into account the time the verse was revealed.

Secondly, both the christians and jews are referred to as people of the book in the Quran and the Quran also talks about their concept of trinity.

Thirdly, we know for sure that when Mecca was finally conquered the idols were destroyed but NO ONE was forced to convert to Islam or leave the city otherwise. And that continued till the Holy prophet's death. So historically, non-muslims have been living in Mecca and Medina.

As far as the Saudi govt is concerned... Well, if they are banning non-muslims from entering because of fear of intrigues, violent eruptions because of clashes, or fear of terrorism than thats OK with me...they have the right to impose laws as they seem OK since they are the custodians but as a matter of principle, I disagree with the concept that Allah hasn't allowed it. I am opposed to making it a tourist destination as it would put a lot of pressure on the city and its governance.

If I were to handle it, I would forbade non-muslims (and non-pilgrims too for that matter that are coming unnecessarily) from entering the two cities during Hajj days due to the increased rush but at other times, It should be allowed. Stricter security concern and valid reasons should, however, apply.

TheGlobalizer

November 13th, 2007, 12:13 AM

Question: If the Quran bars idolaters from entering Makkah (or just the Grand Mosque), does that prohibit bona fide atheists from entering? Is there a separate verse that bars atheists?

I mean, I'm certainly not a "believer", but I'm no idolater, either. :)

Just curious how the Muslim world breaks down on the atheism issue. I'm sure y'all hate us just as much as the Christians do... ;)

Umer Sheikh

November 28th, 2007, 02:06 PM

NON MUSLIMS ARE BANNED ONLY FROM MAKKAH AND MADINA NOT BECAUSE WE DONT HAVE POWER BUT BECAUSE WE ARE NOT ORDERED IN QURAN TO DO SO.THIS IS BECAUSE IT IS A HOLY CITY FOR ALL.

Umer Sheikh

November 28th, 2007, 02:09 PM

I THINK YOU MISUNDERSTOOD THE WHOLE THING.

wyqtor

December 3rd, 2007, 11:56 PM

smussuw

December 4th, 2007, 07:00 AM

^^ What's the point of having our beliefs in the first place if we are going to change them to suit you? If banning non-muslims from entering Makkah makes us intolerant terrorists so be it.

metal gear

December 4th, 2007, 07:23 AM

I agree Makkah and Medina should be opened to non-Muslims. If Saudi Arabia and Muslims in general won't become more tolerant towards us, I'm very afraid that Islam itself will soon be perceived as the religion of the intolerant terrorists. :ohno:

WHEN WILL UR DEMANDS STOP..........................we will not change anything to suit anyone .....................because our ideology is set by god and only god can change it.........................YES thats right ,this is our belief

saad_hawk

December 4th, 2007, 07:10 PM

Mecca and Medina is just for muslims only, Dont need non muslims in their and thats the botom line cause stone cold said so

gohorns

December 6th, 2007, 09:08 PM

^^ you make a valid point...very mature....that should end the debate right there..

drmadham

December 7th, 2007, 03:20 AM

No need.

Its crowded enough as it is.

clearsky

December 8th, 2007, 05:41 AM

Mecca and Medina are places of worships. I don't think it is a fun place like Disneyland per say. Disneyland is a business institution and Mecca and Medina are not. It makes sense that only worshipers will go there. If someone wants to learn about Islam, I don't think a personal visit to Mecca and Medina is an absolute must. Plus, as mentioned earlier, who should get there is also mandated by the religion.

By the way, Mecca and Medina are not the only religious site off limit to people of other faiths. Golden Temple at Amritsar belonging to Seikh religious faith is also off limit to people of other beliefs, as far as I know.

TheGlobalizer

December 31st, 2007, 09:33 PM

Regarding religious sites, I understand being barred from them, though I do feel that appropriate "deference" should be acceptable. I've been to the Wailing Wall, and I put on the little hat thing, and kept a respectful tone. I've been to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and I covered my body in accordance with their "house rules".

That said, when it extends to entire cities, particularly those involved in a lot of non-religious functions such as shopping malls and hotels and the like (ala Abraj al-Bait), it seems more about exclusiveness (bigotry?) and less about religious devotion.

But, as was noted, it ain't my call. I would just like the opportunity to show respect for the achievements of the Islamic world, regardless of whether I subscribe to that particular religious belief system.

(FWIW, I agree with wyqtor's sentiments; I think relaxing the religious and ethnic exclusivity of the Arab world would do wonders for Arab-Western relations. That said, so would more worldly and tolerant US and European leaders.)

My two cents.