Fanny Greville. 18th Cent.


I ASK no kind return of love,
No tempting charm to please;
Far from the heart those gifts remove,
That sighs for peace and ease.

Nor peace nor ease the heart can know,
That, like the needle true,
Turns at the touch of joy or woe,
But turning, trembles too.

Far as distress the soul can wound,
'Tis pain in each degree:
'Tis bliss but to a certain bound,
Beyond is agony.
:cheers2:

Fanny Greville. 18th Cent.


I ASK no kind return of love,
No tempting charm to please;
Far from the heart those gifts remove,
That sighs for peace and ease.

Nor peace nor ease the heart can know,
That, like the needle true,
Turns at the touch of joy or woe,
But turning, trembles too.

Far as distress the soul can wound,
'Tis pain in each degree:
'Tis bliss but to a certain bound,
Beyond is agony.
:cheers2:

Now this piece of work is difficult to understand. 'Tis written in 14th century Middle English.

Prologue

Here bygynneth the Book of the tales of Caunterbury.

1 Whan that Aprille, with hise shoures soote,

2 The droghte of March hath perced to the roote

3 And bathed every veyne in swich licour,

4 Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth

6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth

7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne

8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,

9 And smale foweles maken melodye,

10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-

11 So priketh hem Nature in hir corages-

12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages

13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes

14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;

15 And specially, from every shires ende
:lol:

QE0MtENfOMU

Now this piece of work is difficult to understand. 'Tis written in 14th century Middle English.

Prologue

Here bygynneth the Book of the tales of Caunterbury.

1 Whan that Aprille, with hise shoures soote,

2 The droghte of March hath perced to the roote

3 And bathed every veyne in swich licour,

4 Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth

6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth

7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne

8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,

9 And smale foweles maken melodye,

10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-

11 So priketh hem Nature in hir corages-

12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages

13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes

14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;

15 And specially, from every shires ende
:lol:

QE0MtENfOMU

George Crabbe. 1754–1832


WE'VE trod the maze of error round,
Long wandering in the winding glade;
And now the torch of truth is found,
It only shows us where we strayed:
By long experience taught, we know—
Can rightly judge of friends and foes;
Can all the worth of these allow,
And all the faults discern in those.

Now, 'tis our boast that we can quell
The wildest passions in their rage,
Can their destructive force repel,
And their impetuous wrath assuage.—
Ah, Virtue! dost thou arm when now
This bold rebellious race are fled?
When all these tyrants rest, and thou
Art warring with the mighty dead?
:cheers2:

George Crabbe. 1754–1832


WE'VE trod the maze of error round,
Long wandering in the winding glade;
And now the torch of truth is found,
It only shows us where we strayed:
By long experience taught, we know—
Can rightly judge of friends and foes;
Can all the worth of these allow,
And all the faults discern in those.

Now, 'tis our boast that we can quell
The wildest passions in their rage,
Can their destructive force repel,
And their impetuous wrath assuage.—
Ah, Virtue! dost thou arm when now
This bold rebellious race are fled?
When all these tyrants rest, and thou
Art warring with the mighty dead?
:cheers2:

@mercato:

It's quite interesting how the development and transformation of English took place from highly Germanic to a form we speak and write at present time. Had not the Norman invasion of 1066 took place, the English today would sound more like German. Yea, some Germans I met make most of the fact that English is classified as “Low” German whilst theirs is “High” German, whatever they meant by it.

It is interesting because the Normans were Norsemen (Vikings by race) but Latinized / Romanized as they had adopted the Romance language.

Methinks the Germans were just sore because of this date’s significance :lol:

June 6, 1944 - World War II: Battle of Normandy begins. D-Day, code named Operation Overlord, commences with the landing of 155,000 Allied troops on the beaches of Normandy in France. The allied soldiers quickly break through the Atlantic Wall and push inland in the largest amphibious military operation in history.

(And this was presided over by a great DEMOCRAT - Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt. ;))

@mercato:

It's quite interesting how the development and transformation of English took place from highly Germanic to a form we speak and write at present time. Had not the Norman invasion of 1066 took place, the English today would sound more like German. Yea, some Germans I met make most of the fact that English is classified as “Low” German whilst theirs is “High” German, whatever they meant by it.

It is interesting because the Normans were Norsemen (Vikings by race) but Latinized / Romanized as they had adopted the Romance language.

Methinks the Germans were just sore because of this date’s significance :lol:

June 6, 1944 - World War II: Battle of Normandy begins. D-Day, code named Operation Overlord, commences with the landing of 155,000 Allied troops on the beaches of Normandy in France. The allied soldiers quickly break through the Atlantic Wall and push inland in the largest amphibious military operation in history.

(And this was presided over by a great DEMOCRAT - Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt. ;))

George Crabbe. 1754–1832


WE'VE trod the maze of error round,
Long wandering in the winding glade;
And now the torch of truth is found,
It only shows us where we strayed:
By long experience taught, we know—
Can rightly judge of friends and foes;
Can all the worth of these allow,
And all the faults discern in those.

Now, 'tis our boast that we can quell
The wildest passions in their rage,
Can their destructive force repel,
And their impetuous wrath assuage.—
Ah, Virtue! dost thou arm when now
This bold rebellious race are fled?
When all these tyrants rest, and thou
Art warring with the mighty dead?
:cheers2:



magayon na komposisyon

George Crabbe. 1754–1832


WE'VE trod the maze of error round,
Long wandering in the winding glade;
And now the torch of truth is found,
It only shows us where we strayed:
By long experience taught, we know—
Can rightly judge of friends and foes;
Can all the worth of these allow,
And all the faults discern in those.

Now, 'tis our boast that we can quell
The wildest passions in their rage,
Can their destructive force repel,
And their impetuous wrath assuage.—
Ah, Virtue! dost thou arm when now
This bold rebellious race are fled?
When all these tyrants rest, and thou
Art warring with the mighty dead?
:cheers2:



magayon na komposisyon

Now this piece of work is difficult to understand. 'Tis written in 14th century Middle English.

Prologue

Here bygynneth the Book of the tales of Caunterbury.

1 Whan that Aprille, with hise shoures soote,

2 The droghte of March hath perced to the roote

3 And bathed every veyne in swich licour,

4 Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth

6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth

7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne

8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,

9 And smale foweles maken melodye,

10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-

11 So priketh hem Nature in hir corages-

12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages

13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes

14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;

15 And specially, from every shires ende
:lol:


this is by sir geoffrey chauccer. the same author of beowulf. if i'm not mistaken, this is a book of pilgrimage. a sort of an oddessy.

Now this piece of work is difficult to understand. 'Tis written in 14th century Middle English.

Prologue

Here bygynneth the Book of the tales of Caunterbury.

1 Whan that Aprille, with hise shoures soote,

2 The droghte of March hath perced to the roote

3 And bathed every veyne in swich licour,

4 Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth

6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth

7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne

8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,

9 And smale foweles maken melodye,

10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-

11 So priketh hem Nature in hir corages-

12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages

13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes

14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;

15 And specially, from every shires ende
:lol:


this is by sir geoffrey chauccer. the same author of beowulf. if i'm not mistaken, this is a book of pilgrimage. a sort of an oddessy.

To me a real Filipino is should be fluent in both Filipino (any dialect) and English. Again, since English is the universal language, Filipinos have the advantage in speaking it compared to other countries.

Even nationalist France has given up and English is now encouraged in that country.

The Philippines may have these senseless debate on what language to use. But for one, English should still be a mandatory subject and not optional whether or not it is the primary language used in the country's schools.

Nobody in this thread is asking for the removal of the english language in the Philippine educational system or else where in the Philippines. It is really here to stay. What is being debated upon here is the fact that there are some of us here in this forum who wanted to resort to replacing the Philippine national language into english mainly due to the increasing (apparently) amount of frustrations and disappointment in our system, including the economy and the somewhat cold war between regions due to seemingly inequality or biases coming from the capital region that happen to be the tagalog region as well.

Part of what is also being discussed here is the deterioration on english language skills amongst filipino students which perhaps based on public school system that basically due to lack of competitive school teachers because we are losing it to other countries. English is the only topic of discussion here but in all actuality, mathematics skills on the student is also lagging behind. It just is telling us that the educational system is also deteriorating in the Philippines.

To me a real Filipino is should be fluent in both Filipino (any dialect) and English. Again, since English is the universal language, Filipinos have the advantage in speaking it compared to other countries.

Even nationalist France has given up and English is now encouraged in that country.

The Philippines may have these senseless debate on what language to use. But for one, English should still be a mandatory subject and not optional whether or not it is the primary language used in the country's schools.

Nobody in this thread is asking for the removal of the english language in the Philippine educational system or else where in the Philippines. It is really here to stay. What is being debated upon here is the fact that there are some of us here in this forum who wanted to resort to replacing the Philippine national language into english mainly due to the increasing (apparently) amount of frustrations and disappointment in our system, including the economy and the somewhat cold war between regions due to seemingly inequality or biases coming from the capital region that happen to be the tagalog region as well.

Part of what is also being discussed here is the deterioration on english language skills amongst filipino students which perhaps based on public school system that basically due to lack of competitive school teachers because we are losing it to other countries. English is the only topic of discussion here but in all actuality, mathematics skills on the student is also lagging behind. It just is telling us that the educational system is also deteriorating in the Philippines.

Percy Bysshe Shelley. 1792–1822


I ARISE from dreams of thee
In the first sweet sleep of night,
When the winds are breathing low,
And the stars are shining bright.
I arise from dreams of thee,
And a spirit in my feet
Hath led me—who knows how?
To thy chamber window, Sweet!

The wandering airs they faint
On the dark, the silent stream—
And the champak's odours [pine]
Like sweet thoughts in a dream;
The nightingale's complaint,
It dies upon her heart,
As I must on thine,
O belovèd as thou art!

O lift me from the grass!
I die! I faint! I fail!
Let thy love in kisses rain
On my lips and eyelids pale.
My cheek is cold and white, alas!
My heart beats loud and fast:
O press it to thine own again,
Where it will break at last!
I ARISE from dreams of thee
In the first sweet sleep of night,
When the winds are breathing low,
And the stars are shining bright.
I arise from dreams of thee,
And a spirit in my feet
Hath led me—who knows how?
To thy chamber window, Sweet!

The wandering airs they faint
On the dark, the silent stream—
And the champak's odours [pine]
Like sweet thoughts in a dream;
The nightingale's complaint,
It dies upon her heart,
As I must on thine,
O belovèd as thou art!

O lift me from the grass!
I die! I faint! I fail!
Let thy love in kisses rain
On my lips and eyelids pale.
My cheek is cold and white, alas!
My heart beats loud and fast:
O press it to thine own again,
Where it will break at last!
:cheers2:

Percy Bysshe Shelley. 1792–1822


I ARISE from dreams of thee
In the first sweet sleep of night,
When the winds are breathing low,
And the stars are shining bright.
I arise from dreams of thee,
And a spirit in my feet
Hath led me—who knows how?
To thy chamber window, Sweet!

The wandering airs they faint
On the dark, the silent stream—
And the champak's odours [pine]
Like sweet thoughts in a dream;
The nightingale's complaint,
It dies upon her heart,
As I must on thine,
O belovèd as thou art!

O lift me from the grass!
I die! I faint! I fail!
Let thy love in kisses rain
On my lips and eyelids pale.
My cheek is cold and white, alas!
My heart beats loud and fast:
O press it to thine own again,
Where it will break at last!
I ARISE from dreams of thee
In the first sweet sleep of night,
When the winds are breathing low,
And the stars are shining bright.
I arise from dreams of thee,
And a spirit in my feet
Hath led me—who knows how?
To thy chamber window, Sweet!

The wandering airs they faint
On the dark, the silent stream—
And the champak's odours [pine]
Like sweet thoughts in a dream;
The nightingale's complaint,
It dies upon her heart,
As I must on thine,
O belovèd as thou art!

O lift me from the grass!
I die! I faint! I fail!
Let thy love in kisses rain
On my lips and eyelids pale.
My cheek is cold and white, alas!
My heart beats loud and fast:
O press it to thine own again,
Where it will break at last!
:cheers2:

Flag of Our Union (Boston)
April 21, 1849

by Edgar Allan Poe


Gaily bedight,
A gallant knight,
In sunshine and in shadow,
Had journeyed long,
Singing a song,
In search of Eldorado.

But he grew old—
This knight so bold—
And o'er his heart a shadow
Fell as he found
No spot of ground
That looked like Eldorado.

And, as his strength
Failed him at length,
He met a pilgrim shadow—
"Shadow," said he,
"Where can it be—
This land of Eldorado?"

"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon,
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied—
"If you seek for Eldorado!"


-The End
:cheers2:

Flag of Our Union (Boston)
April 21, 1849

by Edgar Allan Poe


Gaily bedight,
A gallant knight,
In sunshine and in shadow,
Had journeyed long,
Singing a song,
In search of Eldorado.

But he grew old—
This knight so bold—
And o'er his heart a shadow
Fell as he found
No spot of ground
That looked like Eldorado.

And, as his strength
Failed him at length,
He met a pilgrim shadow—
"Shadow," said he,
"Where can it be—
This land of Eldorado?"

"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon,
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied—
"If you seek for Eldorado!"


-The End
:cheers2:

this is by sir geoffrey chauccer. the same author of beowulf. if i'm not mistaken, this is a book of pilgrimage. a sort of an oddessy.

Beowulf was written (or told) way before Chaucer (circa 8th to 11th century). The language at the time of Beowulf is Old English (Anglo-Saxon), which is a highly Germanic one (check post# 739). Beowulf's author is still unknown. Chaucer's language is Middle English.

this is by sir geoffrey chauccer. the same author of beowulf. if i'm not mistaken, this is a book of pilgrimage. a sort of an oddessy.

Beowulf was written (or told) way before Chaucer (circa 8th to 11th century). The language at the time of Beowulf is Old English (Anglo-Saxon), which is a highly Germanic one (check post# 739). Beowulf's author is still unknown. Chaucer's language is Middle English.

(No man is an island) by John Donne


No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
:cheers2:

(dedicated to the Bells of Balangiga, Samar)

(see also the classic 1940 novel by Ernest Hemingway, For Whom The Bell Tolls. Based on experiences from the Spanish Civil War)

(No man is an island) by John Donne


No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
:cheers2:

(dedicated to the Bells of Balangiga, Samar)

(see also the classic 1940 novel by Ernest Hemingway, For Whom The Bell Tolls. Based on experiences from the Spanish Civil War)

by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow


Between the dark and the daylight,
When the night is beginning to lower,
Comes a pause in the day's occupations,
That is known as the Children's Hour.

I hear in the chamber above me
The patter of little feet,
The sound of a door that is opened,
And voices soft and sweet.

From my study I see in the lamplight,
Descending the broad hall stair,
Grave Alice, and laughing Allegra,
And Edith with golden hair.

A whisper, and then a silence:
Yet I know by their merry eyes
They are plotting and planning together
To take me by surprise.

A sudden rush from the stairway,
A sudden raid from the hall!
By three doors left unguarded
They enter my castle wall!

They climb up into my turret
O'er the arms and back of my chair;
If I try to escape, they surround me;
They seem to be everywhere.

They almost devour me with kisses,
Their arms about me entwine,
Till I think of the Bishop of Bingen
In his Mouse-Tower on the Rhine!

Do you think, O blue-eyed banditti,
Because you have scaled the wall,
Such an old mustache as I am
Is not a match for you all!

I have you fast in my fortress,
And will not let you depart,
But put you down into the dungeon
In the round-tower of my heart.

And there will I keep you forever,
Yes, forever and a day,
Till the walls shall crumble to ruin,
And moulder in dust away!
:cheers2:

(see also the classic 1961 movie, The Children's Hour, starring Audrey Hepburn, Shirley MacLaine, James Garner, Director William Wyler)

by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow


Between the dark and the daylight,
When the night is beginning to lower,
Comes a pause in the day's occupations,
That is known as the Children's Hour.

I hear in the chamber above me
The patter of little feet,
The sound of a door that is opened,
And voices soft and sweet.

From my study I see in the lamplight,
Descending the broad hall stair,
Grave Alice, and laughing Allegra,
And Edith with golden hair.

A whisper, and then a silence:
Yet I know by their merry eyes
They are plotting and planning together
To take me by surprise.

A sudden rush from the stairway,
A sudden raid from the hall!
By three doors left unguarded
They enter my castle wall!

They climb up into my turret
O'er the arms and back of my chair;
If I try to escape, they surround me;
They seem to be everywhere.

They almost devour me with kisses,
Their arms about me entwine,
Till I think of the Bishop of Bingen
In his Mouse-Tower on the Rhine!

Do you think, O blue-eyed banditti,
Because you have scaled the wall,
Such an old mustache as I am
Is not a match for you all!

I have you fast in my fortress,
And will not let you depart,
But put you down into the dungeon
In the round-tower of my heart.

And there will I keep you forever,
Yes, forever and a day,
Till the walls shall crumble to ruin,
And moulder in dust away!
:cheers2:

(see also the classic 1961 movie, The Children's Hour, starring Audrey Hepburn, Shirley MacLaine, James Garner, Director William Wyler)

Nobody in this thread is asking for the removal of the english language in the Philippine educational system or else where in the Philippines. It is really here to stay. What is being debated upon here is the fact that there are some of us here in this forum who wanted to resort to replacing the Philippine national language into english mainly due to the increasing (apparently) amount of frustrations and disappointment in our system, including the economy and the somewhat cold war between regions due to seemingly inequality or biases coming from the capital region that happen to be the tagalog region as well.

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Nobody in this thread is asking for the removal of the english language in the Philippine educational system or else where in the Philippines. It is really here to stay. What is being debated upon here is the fact that there are some of us here in this forum who wanted to resort to replacing the Philippine national language into english mainly due to the increasing (apparently) amount of frustrations and disappointment in our system, including the economy and the somewhat cold war between regions due to seemingly inequality or biases coming from the capital region that happen to be the tagalog region as well.

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Oh, there is a price to pay alright if we lose our own native languages including tagalog. It's like we defaced ourselves and put on a mask to cover it up.

Oh, there is a price to pay alright if we lose our own native languages including tagalog. It's like we defaced ourselves and put on a mask to cover it up.

Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making.

John Milton

How can an institutionalised language which is taught in the school system be erased so easily? It has dominance in the media, in movies, TV, cable, newspapers, magazines, tabloids, pop culture, BPI ATMs. ‘Tis thee who hast jumped to conclusions, mon ami. English has been taught all throughout 30 years of the Philippine Commonwealth and it hadn’t choked any of our native languages right up to the Jap invasion.

Then it continued on for another 3 & 1/2 decades from the 1940’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s even up to the early 80’s. Thence the ineptitude of Corazon Aquino’s clique dislodged English from many of its traditional subjects in favour of Tagalog. Result was a steady decline in proficiency which is still being felt to this day. Which is which? Which tongue is really in decline? Studies had shown that it is English which is declining.

Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making.

John Milton

How can an institutionalised language which is taught in the school system be erased so easily? It has dominance in the media, in movies, TV, cable, newspapers, magazines, tabloids, pop culture, BPI ATMs. ‘Tis thee who hast jumped to conclusions, mon ami. English has been taught all throughout 30 years of the Philippine Commonwealth and it hadn’t choked any of our native languages right up to the Jap invasion.

Then it continued on for another 3 & 1/2 decades from the 1940’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s even up to the early 80’s. Thence the ineptitude of Corazon Aquino’s clique dislodged English from many of its traditional subjects in favour of Tagalog. Result was a steady decline in proficiency which is still being felt to this day. Which is which? Which tongue is really in decline? Studies had shown that it is English which is declining.

What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be not forever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
Grief not, rather find,
Strength in what remains behind,
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be,
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of Human suffering,
In the faith that looks through death
In years that bring the philosophic mind.

William Wordsworth (1770 - 1850)
English poet
:cheers2:

(See also Splendour in the Grass, Hollywood classic 1961, Director Elia Kazan, starring Natalie Wood, Warren Beatty)

What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be not forever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
Grief not, rather find,
Strength in what remains behind,
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be,
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of Human suffering,
In the faith that looks through death
In years that bring the philosophic mind.

William Wordsworth (1770 - 1850)
English poet
:cheers2:

(See also Splendour in the Grass, Hollywood classic 1961, Director Elia Kazan, starring Natalie Wood, Warren Beatty)

by Edgar Allan Poe



Oh! that my young life were a lasting dream!
My spirit not awakening, till the beam
Of an Eternity should bring the morrow.
Yes! tho' that long dream were of hopeless sorrow,
'Twere better than the cold reality
Of waking life, to him whose heart must be,
And hath been still, upon the lovely earth,
A chaos of deep passion, from his birth.
But should it be— that dream eternally
Continuing— as dreams have been to me
In my young boyhood— should it thus be given,
'Twere folly still to hope for higher Heaven.
For I have revell'd, when the sun was bright
I' the summer sky, in dreams of living light
And loveliness,— have left my very heart
In climes of my imagining, apart
From mine own home, with beings that have been
Of mine own thought— what more could I have seen?
'Twas once— and only once— and the wild hour
From my remembrance shall not pass— some power
Or spell had bound me— 'twas the chilly wind
Came o'er me in the night, and left behind
Its image on my spirit— or the moon
Shone on my slumbers in her lofty noon
Too coldly— or the stars— howe'er it was
That dream was as that night—wind— let it pass.

I have been happy, tho' in a dream.
I have been happy— and I love the theme:
Dreams! in their vivid coloring of life,
As in that fleeting, shadowy, misty strife
Of semblance with reality, which brings
To the delirious eye, more lovely things
Of Paradise and Love— and all our own!
Than young Hope in his sunniest hour hath known.
.


-The End-
:cheers2:

by Edgar Allan Poe



Oh! that my young life were a lasting dream!
My spirit not awakening, till the beam
Of an Eternity should bring the morrow.
Yes! tho' that long dream were of hopeless sorrow,
'Twere better than the cold reality
Of waking life, to him whose heart must be,
And hath been still, upon the lovely earth,
A chaos of deep passion, from his birth.
But should it be— that dream eternally
Continuing— as dreams have been to me
In my young boyhood— should it thus be given,
'Twere folly still to hope for higher Heaven.
For I have revell'd, when the sun was bright
I' the summer sky, in dreams of living light
And loveliness,— have left my very heart
In climes of my imagining, apart
From mine own home, with beings that have been
Of mine own thought— what more could I have seen?
'Twas once— and only once— and the wild hour
From my remembrance shall not pass— some power
Or spell had bound me— 'twas the chilly wind
Came o'er me in the night, and left behind
Its image on my spirit— or the moon
Shone on my slumbers in her lofty noon
Too coldly— or the stars— howe'er it was
That dream was as that night—wind— let it pass.

I have been happy, tho' in a dream.
I have been happy— and I love the theme:
Dreams! in their vivid coloring of life,
As in that fleeting, shadowy, misty strife
Of semblance with reality, which brings
To the delirious eye, more lovely things
Of Paradise and Love— and all our own!
Than young Hope in his sunniest hour hath known.
.


-The End-
:cheers2:

What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be not forever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
Grief not, rather find,
Strength in what remains behind,
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be,
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of Human suffering,
In the faith that looks through death
In years that bring the philosophic mind.

William Wordsworth (1770 - 1850)
English poet
:cheers2:

(See also Splendour in the Grass, Hollywood classic 1961, Director Elia Kazan, starring Natalie Wood, Warren Beatty)

oh i love this movie. natalie wood ,such a classic beauty.

What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be not forever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
Grief not, rather find,
Strength in what remains behind,
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be,
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of Human suffering,
In the faith that looks through death
In years that bring the philosophic mind.

William Wordsworth (1770 - 1850)
English poet
:cheers2:

(See also Splendour in the Grass, Hollywood classic 1961, Director Elia Kazan, starring Natalie Wood, Warren Beatty)

oh i love this movie. natalie wood ,such a classic beauty.

Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making.

John Milton

How can an institutionalised language which is taught in the school system be erased so easily? It has dominance in the media, in movies, TV, cable, newspapers, magazines, tabloids, pop culture, BPI ATMs. ‘Tis thee who hast jumped to conclusions, mon ami. English has been taught all throughout 30 years of the Philippine Commonwealth and it hadn’t choked any of our native languages right up to the Jap invasion.

Then it continued on for another 3 & 1/2 decades from the 1940’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s even up to the early 80’s. Thence the ineptitude of Corazon Aquino’s clique dislodged English from many of its traditional subjects in favour of Tagalog. Result was a steady decline in proficiency which is still being felt to this day. Which is which? Which tongue is really in decline? Studies had shown that it is English which is declining.

I kind of agree with you on this one, Corazon Aquino should of left things the way it was on educational system as far as english as a medium of instruction goes...She's not even a tagalog herself, a Kapangpangan with chinese ancestry, then she speaks to her kids in english, her kids like Kris Aquino doesn't speak tagalog properly even, it's like what the heck??? How did she even end up speaking that colegiala english when she was raised in the US mostly?

But even then, tagalog was being taught in schools, so, what would happen if any of the Philippine languages is not taught in their respective schools in all the regions in the Philippines and english prevailed from media to the school system. Don't you think that the youths of today would start dropping the native tongues in favor of english alone? We have a very strong influences from the west and what the youth of today see on television, they immitate and follow it, this is why alot of filipinos are too caught up with anything american, with the way they act, dress and talk, youths of today are already picking it up. What more if english is extensively promoted in all sectors of life???

Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making.

John Milton

How can an institutionalised language which is taught in the school system be erased so easily? It has dominance in the media, in movies, TV, cable, newspapers, magazines, tabloids, pop culture, BPI ATMs. ‘Tis thee who hast jumped to conclusions, mon ami. English has been taught all throughout 30 years of the Philippine Commonwealth and it hadn’t choked any of our native languages right up to the Jap invasion.

Then it continued on for another 3 & 1/2 decades from the 1940’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s even up to the early 80’s. Thence the ineptitude of Corazon Aquino’s clique dislodged English from many of its traditional subjects in favour of Tagalog. Result was a steady decline in proficiency which is still being felt to this day. Which is which? Which tongue is really in decline? Studies had shown that it is English which is declining.

I kind of agree with you on this one, Corazon Aquino should of left things the way it was on educational system as far as english as a medium of instruction goes...She's not even a tagalog herself, a Kapangpangan with chinese ancestry, then she speaks to her kids in english, her kids like Kris Aquino doesn't speak tagalog properly even, it's like what the heck??? How did she even end up speaking that colegiala english when she was raised in the US mostly?

But even then, tagalog was being taught in schools, so, what would happen if any of the Philippine languages is not taught in their respective schools in all the regions in the Philippines and english prevailed from media to the school system. Don't you think that the youths of today would start dropping the native tongues in favor of english alone? We have a very strong influences from the west and what the youth of today see on television, they immitate and follow it, this is why alot of filipinos are too caught up with anything american, with the way they act, dress and talk, youths of today are already picking it up. What more if english is extensively promoted in all sectors of life???

but i thought colegiala English is so sosyal in the Philippines.

but i thought colegiala English is so sosyal in the Philippines.

^^ :eek: What!? You mean you don't speak it yourself? :wink2:




:lol: :jk: :nocrook:

^^ :eek: What!? You mean you don't speak it yourself? :wink2:




:lol: :jk: :nocrook:

^^he he i just use it when i run out of English or tagalog words .

^^he he i just use it when i run out of English or tagalog words .

^^he he i just use it when i run out of English or tagalog words .

Saang bundok, este probinsya ka ba galing Crappy? nauubusan ka ring ng tagalog:D

^^he he i just use it when i run out of English or tagalog words .

Saang bundok, este probinsya ka ba galing Crappy? nauubusan ka ring ng tagalog:D

oh i love this movie. natalie wood ,such a classic beauty. Yea, she was also the most beautiful Maria I had seen - re West Side Story.

Better yet, which State are you from, Crappy? I know kiretoce is from Florida & mwg seems to be from Illinois.

I'm trying to demonstrate innovative ways of learning English here. Combination of classic literature and the Hollywood classics since both are already available almost anywhere in the Philippines. Like, my uncles and aunts worshipped Elizabeth Taylor, Bette Davis, James Dean and Charlton Heston. We try to avoid using the newer movies here coz there are so many curses and profanities. :lol:

oh i love this movie. natalie wood ,such a classic beauty. Yea, she was also the most beautiful Maria I had seen - re West Side Story.

Better yet, which State are you from, Crappy? I know kiretoce is from Florida & mwg seems to be from Illinois.

I'm trying to demonstrate innovative ways of learning English here. Combination of classic literature and the Hollywood classics since both are already available almost anywhere in the Philippines. Like, my uncles and aunts worshipped Elizabeth Taylor, Bette Davis, James Dean and Charlton Heston. We try to avoid using the newer movies here coz there are so many curses and profanities. :lol:

Legislators push English as medium of instruction (http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=121122)

Despite a number of studies confirming that learning is faster using the native language, government officials are still pushing for the adoption of English as a medium on instruction (MOI) in Philippine schools.

A check on the bills filed in the 14th Congress shows that there are three bills—House Bills 230, 305, 406—seeking for either the re-instatement or enhancement of the use of English as a medium of instruction.

The three bills propose the use of English, Filipino or the regional languages as MOI in all subjects from pre-school to Grade II. They prescribe the use of English for all academic subjects from Grade III up to the secondary level.

Proponents of these bills claim that the decline in the English proficiency of the Filipinos and the deterioration of the quality of the education have eroded the competitiveness of the Filipinos.

Rep. Eduardo Gullas, author of HB 305, said in the bill’s explanatory note that the proposed legislation aims to correct the defects of the current Bilingual Education Program (BEP) of the Department of the Education, which was introduced in 1974.

The BEP mandated the teaching not only of Filipino as a subject in all levels but also the use of Filipino as MOI in Social Studies, Character Education, Values Education, Physical Education, Industrial Arts and Home Economics.

Gullas said learning of the English language suffered a setback when the BEP was introduced in 1974. "The use of Filipino as a medium of instruction in the subjects mentioned earlier has limited the exposure of the learner to English, and since exposure is basic to language learning, mastery of the language is not attained."

The policy, Gullas said, results in language interference since targeting the learning of English and Filipino is difficult especially in the lower grades.

Competitiveness

Reps. Raul del Mar and Luis Villafuerte—authors of HB 446 and 230, respectively—believe that their proposed legislation will raise the level of English language proficiency and will help the Filipinos remain competitive.

Del Mar, whose bill also proposes the use of English as the language of assessment in the government examinations and entrance tests in public schools, colleges and universities, said "The accepted view is that without English language proficiency, it is difficult for a Filipino to get jobs anywhere in this country and anywhere in the world. The key to better jobs here or overseas is English,"

Sub-standard English

Businessmen have been complaining of college graduates who are not proficient in English. In 2006, the European Chamber of Commerce estimated that 75 percent of the around 400,000 college graduates have substandard English skills.

Jayjay Viray, general manager of jobhunting website JobsDB.com, said most of their clients complained of applicants who lack good communication skills and have trouble expressing themselves in English. She added that most vacancies in the marketing and business sector require applicants to speak in English.

"When you are looking for a job you are actually selling yourself," Viray told abs-cbnNEWS.com/Newsbreak. "Even if you have the skills and you do not know how to communicate with your prospective employers, they’ll never know your abilities. In most cases, it’s the initial conversation with them [prospective employers] that matters."

The growing business process outsourcing (BPO) industry in the country is one of the sectors that have difficulty in filling up positions due to low recruitment yield and lack of applicants fluent in English. A 2007 study by the Business Process Association of the Philippines (BPAP) and Outsource2Philippines.com showed that 46 percent of the companies surveyed found only 6 to 20 percents of applicants qualified.

"If we continue with what we are having this moment, we might not have enough workers to meet future demand," said Jamea Garcia, executive director for talent of BPAP. BPAP estimates that the outsourcing industry will provide 1 million jobs by 2010.

Here comes EO 210

This growth in the information and technology sector is one of the reasons cited by government in justifying the need to improve English proficiency. In 2003,

President Arroyo signed Executive Order No. 210, which strengthens use of the English language as a second language in the educational system.

"There is a need to develop the aptitude, competence and proficiency of our students in the English language to maintain and improve their competitive edge in emerging and fast-growing local and international industries, particularly in the area of information and communications technology," the order reads.

According to the order, English should be taught as a second language starting with Grade 1 and should be taught as the medium of instruction for English, Mathematics and Science from at least Grade 3. Filipino language will be used as MOI for Filipino and Araling Panlipunan.

It also mandates the use of English as the primary medium of instruction in all public and private secondary schools. The percentage of time allotment for learning areas conducted in English language, the law said, should not be less than 70 percent of the total time allotment for all learning areas in the secondary level.

However, EO 210 and its implementing rules and regulation were questioned last year by a group of professors and language experts. The professors and language experts filed a petition with the Supreme Court challenging the orders.

"While the title of the EO purports to strengthen the use of English as a second language, analyses of the contents show that the EO actually strengthens English as the medium of instruction," the petition said.

Petitioners argued that the (1) EO subverts the present status of Filipino in non-Tagalog areas, and violates the constitutional injunction that the regional language shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction, (2) violates the constitutional duty to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino language in the educational system and (3) "undermines the letter and spirit of the Constitution on the national language."

Mother tongue is best

Language experts also criticized the EO 210 and the pending bills because they go against the findings of previous studies that learning is faster when the mother tongue is used as medium of instruction, particularly during the child’s early years in school.

A World Bank-funded study in 1994 by Nadine Dutcher and G. Richard Tucker concludes that individuals easily develop cognitive skills and master content material when they are taught in a familiar language. The study also found out developing the child’s cognitive skills through the first language is more effective than exposure to the second language.

Similarly, the 1991 Congressional Report of the Congressional Commission on Education recommended the use of the vernacular and Filipino as the medium of instruction for basic education.

In a CEO forum on English last year, Patricia B. Licuanan, president of Miriam College, said empirical evidence has shown the damaging effects of English on Filipino student learning since the 1925, when the Monroe Survey Commission found out that foreign language handicap was the greatest problem of the Philippine educational system. Back then, the American colonial government prescribed the use of English as medium of instruction.

"When English is used, students do not learn well, and at times do not learn at all," Licuanan said. "Using English as medium of instruction in some subject areas [Math and Science] prevents students from learning as much as they could in their mother tongue."

Ricardo Ma. Nolasco, chair of the Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino, said the basic weakness in Philippine education is the fact that many students do not understand their teacher and cannot follow the lesson because "the language in school is one they can hardly speak or understand."

Nolasco told us that what the country need is a law mandating the use of the children’s first language from pre-school to Grade 6 and adopt the bilingual system in high school. He added that this would allow learners to develop cognitive and linguistic skills in their mother tongue, build solid foundation for learning other subjects and eventually transfer skills and knowledge to the prescribed languages.

National Artist for Literature and UP College of Arts and Letters Dean Virgilio Almario said in an interview that the use of Filipino language is not tantamount to the decline in English proficiency.

"Even if all classes will be conducted in Filipino, English will not die because it will remain to be a necessity," said Almario, who is among those who filed the petition challenging EO 210.

Train the teachers

Almario added that in order to improve the English proficiency of students, there is a need to re-train the teachers because most of them are also not proficient in English.

Results of self-assessment test conducted by the DEPED in 2004 showed that one out of five public high school teachers is proficient in the English language. Even Deped Secretary Jesli Lapuz himself told us that he hears stories of students complaining that their teacher is not good in English.

Carleen Sedilla, a former public high school English teacher in Caloocan and now the principal of Caloocan City Science High School, said the situation is aggravated by students’ limited exposure to the language. "Before, they can learn English by watching cartoons and TV shows. Now, everything is in Filipino."

"Do you expect them to learn if they have limited exposure to the English language and if their teachers do not speak good English?" she said.

Legislators push English as medium of instruction (http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=121122)

Despite a number of studies confirming that learning is faster using the native language, government officials are still pushing for the adoption of English as a medium on instruction (MOI) in Philippine schools.

A check on the bills filed in the 14th Congress shows that there are three bills—House Bills 230, 305, 406—seeking for either the re-instatement or enhancement of the use of English as a medium of instruction.

The three bills propose the use of English, Filipino or the regional languages as MOI in all subjects from pre-school to Grade II. They prescribe the use of English for all academic subjects from Grade III up to the secondary level.

Proponents of these bills claim that the decline in the English proficiency of the Filipinos and the deterioration of the quality of the education have eroded the competitiveness of the Filipinos.

Rep. Eduardo Gullas, author of HB 305, said in the bill’s explanatory note that the proposed legislation aims to correct the defects of the current Bilingual Education Program (BEP) of the Department of the Education, which was introduced in 1974.

The BEP mandated the teaching not only of Filipino as a subject in all levels but also the use of Filipino as MOI in Social Studies, Character Education, Values Education, Physical Education, Industrial Arts and Home Economics.

Gullas said learning of the English language suffered a setback when the BEP was introduced in 1974. "The use of Filipino as a medium of instruction in the subjects mentioned earlier has limited the exposure of the learner to English, and since exposure is basic to language learning, mastery of the language is not attained."

The policy, Gullas said, results in language interference since targeting the learning of English and Filipino is difficult especially in the lower grades.

Competitiveness

Reps. Raul del Mar and Luis Villafuerte—authors of HB 446 and 230, respectively—believe that their proposed legislation will raise the level of English language proficiency and will help the Filipinos remain competitive.

Del Mar, whose bill also proposes the use of English as the language of assessment in the government examinations and entrance tests in public schools, colleges and universities, said "The accepted view is that without English language proficiency, it is difficult for a Filipino to get jobs anywhere in this country and anywhere in the world. The key to better jobs here or overseas is English,"

Sub-standard English

Businessmen have been complaining of college graduates who are not proficient in English. In 2006, the European Chamber of Commerce estimated that 75 percent of the around 400,000 college graduates have substandard English skills.

Jayjay Viray, general manager of jobhunting website JobsDB.com, said most of their clients complained of applicants who lack good communication skills and have trouble expressing themselves in English. She added that most vacancies in the marketing and business sector require applicants to speak in English.

"When you are looking for a job you are actually selling yourself," Viray told abs-cbnNEWS.com/Newsbreak. "Even if you have the skills and you do not know how to communicate with your prospective employers, they’ll never know your abilities. In most cases, it’s the initial conversation with them [prospective employers] that matters."

The growing business process outsourcing (BPO) industry in the country is one of the sectors that have difficulty in filling up positions due to low recruitment yield and lack of applicants fluent in English. A 2007 study by the Business Process Association of the Philippines (BPAP) and Outsource2Philippines.com showed that 46 percent of the companies surveyed found only 6 to 20 percents of applicants qualified.

"If we continue with what we are having this moment, we might not have enough workers to meet future demand," said Jamea Garcia, executive director for talent of BPAP. BPAP estimates that the outsourcing industry will provide 1 million jobs by 2010.

Here comes EO 210

This growth in the information and technology sector is one of the reasons cited by government in justifying the need to improve English proficiency. In 2003,

President Arroyo signed Executive Order No. 210, which strengthens use of the English language as a second language in the educational system.

"There is a need to develop the aptitude, competence and proficiency of our students in the English language to maintain and improve their competitive edge in emerging and fast-growing local and international industries, particularly in the area of information and communications technology," the order reads.

According to the order, English should be taught as a second language starting with Grade 1 and should be taught as the medium of instruction for English, Mathematics and Science from at least Grade 3. Filipino language will be used as MOI for Filipino and Araling Panlipunan.

It also mandates the use of English as the primary medium of instruction in all public and private secondary schools. The percentage of time allotment for learning areas conducted in English language, the law said, should not be less than 70 percent of the total time allotment for all learning areas in the secondary level.

However, EO 210 and its implementing rules and regulation were questioned last year by a group of professors and language experts. The professors and language experts filed a petition with the Supreme Court challenging the orders.

"While the title of the EO purports to strengthen the use of English as a second language, analyses of the contents show that the EO actually strengthens English as the medium of instruction," the petition said.

Petitioners argued that the (1) EO subverts the present status of Filipino in non-Tagalog areas, and violates the constitutional injunction that the regional language shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction, (2) violates the constitutional duty to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino language in the educational system and (3) "undermines the letter and spirit of the Constitution on the national language."

Mother tongue is best

Language experts also criticized the EO 210 and the pending bills because they go against the findings of previous studies that learning is faster when the mother tongue is used as medium of instruction, particularly during the child’s early years in school.

A World Bank-funded study in 1994 by Nadine Dutcher and G. Richard Tucker concludes that individuals easily develop cognitive skills and master content material when they are taught in a familiar language. The study also found out developing the child’s cognitive skills through the first language is more effective than exposure to the second language.

Similarly, the 1991 Congressional Report of the Congressional Commission on Education recommended the use of the vernacular and Filipino as the medium of instruction for basic education.

In a CEO forum on English last year, Patricia B. Licuanan, president of Miriam College, said empirical evidence has shown the damaging effects of English on Filipino student learning since the 1925, when the Monroe Survey Commission found out that foreign language handicap was the greatest problem of the Philippine educational system. Back then, the American colonial government prescribed the use of English as medium of instruction.

"When English is used, students do not learn well, and at times do not learn at all," Licuanan said. "Using English as medium of instruction in some subject areas [Math and Science] prevents students from learning as much as they could in their mother tongue."

Ricardo Ma. Nolasco, chair of the Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino, said the basic weakness in Philippine education is the fact that many students do not understand their teacher and cannot follow the lesson because "the language in school is one they can hardly speak or understand."

Nolasco told us that what the country need is a law mandating the use of the children’s first language from pre-school to Grade 6 and adopt the bilingual system in high school. He added that this would allow learners to develop cognitive and linguistic skills in their mother tongue, build solid foundation for learning other subjects and eventually transfer skills and knowledge to the prescribed languages.

National Artist for Literature and UP College of Arts and Letters Dean Virgilio Almario said in an interview that the use of Filipino language is not tantamount to the decline in English proficiency.

"Even if all classes will be conducted in Filipino, English will not die because it will remain to be a necessity," said Almario, who is among those who filed the petition challenging EO 210.

Train the teachers

Almario added that in order to improve the English proficiency of students, there is a need to re-train the teachers because most of them are also not proficient in English.

Results of self-assessment test conducted by the DEPED in 2004 showed that one out of five public high school teachers is proficient in the English language. Even Deped Secretary Jesli Lapuz himself told us that he hears stories of students complaining that their teacher is not good in English.

Carleen Sedilla, a former public high school English teacher in Caloocan and now the principal of Caloocan City Science High School, said the situation is aggravated by students’ limited exposure to the language. "Before, they can learn English by watching cartoons and TV shows. Now, everything is in Filipino."

"Do you expect them to learn if they have limited exposure to the English language and if their teachers do not speak good English?" she said.

The following article isn't directly about the Philippines, but it does mention it.

===========================================================================

How to teach English in Taiwan (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/2008/06/09/160163/How-to.htm)

Much has been said about how to teach Chinese students the English language, which is not their mother tongue, after an editorial (which is called a leader in the United Kingdom) appeared in the column next to mine on this page. All the recommendations contributed for improvement of the English teaching in Taiwan certainly are constructive, if not quite rational, but there are some all-but-insurmountable difficulties that have not been mentioned.

One recommendation suggested that first graders be taught English. Of course, it is better to start learning earlier. But that does not guarantee that the children would learn the foreign language better. Filipino and Indian (not American Indian) children start learning English in the first grade (form in England) and the medium of teaching in schools at the next higher level as well as colleges and universities is that language (which is one of their national languages) too. Most of the college graduates in India and the Philippines have a very good, or even an excellent, English-writing proficiency, but many of them, sorry to say, have an accent that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience. Remember, language is spoken. Writing is just one form of language.

Japanese was the medium of teaching in schools at all levels in Taiwan while it was under Japanese colonial rule for five decades. Many ethnic Chinese on Formosa and the Pescadores, Hoklo and Hakka, began learning Japanese while they were still toddlers. Though Japanese is one of the very few languages in the world practically without very difficult sounds to utter, most of the Hoklo had failed to tell the "ar" sound and the "dee" sound apart; they pronounced "oden" in Japanese as "oren," which has wound up as the name of a very popular Taiwanese snack, "black wheel." There are no "sonants" or "voiced sounds" in Hakka; so most of the Hakka Chinese could not correctly pronounce Japanese "ji" and "jiu," which sound the same as their "chi" and "chiu." "Jyuhachi (eighteen)" in Japanese, for instance, is mistaken for "chiuhachi," which means nothing to native Japanese-speakers. These are not the problem of "accent," but that of "allophones." Aside from this problem, many ethnic Chinese speakers of Japanese do very well in oral communication in that language. Is their Japanese good or bad?

Grammar has to be taught. The best way to teach English grammar is to teach it in English. But there is a problem which can hardly be resolved. Chinese is a unique (permit me to use the word) language which can be learned without conscientiously studying grammar. As a matter of fact, Chinese grammar is an import from the West. It consists of nothing but syntax. Each sound or group of sounds is understood as the subject, the predicate, and the object in order of precedence. If it is uttered first, it is the subject. One that follows is the predicate or the verb, and so on and so forth. Also remember one has learned grammar by the time one is about five and a half years old. That means that simple English grammar has to be mastered in about three years. Young Chinese children, who have no knowledge of grammar in their own language, simply cannot learn English grammar by studying it in English at that tender age. They do not have enough knowledge of English to study English grammar in English. Besides, English grammar, though much simpler than Italian or German grammar, is extremely complex to a Chinese, whose mother tongue has no inflection whatsoever, no parts of speech, no tense, no mood, no cases, no verb conjugation, ad infinitum.

Comprehensible input in English is essential to the acquisition of a working command of that language. The question is: Can anyone force students to get such input? English newspapers, magazines and books are abundantly available in Taiwan. Billions of pages in English are literally at the tip of one's finger on the Internet. Will these youngsters read them? No one has suggested good dictionaries. For advanced learners of English, an English-English dictionary is a must. The best any English-Chinese dictionary can offer is, as often as not, a rough equivalent of an English word in Chinese. Learners cannot understand what that word actually means in English and how it is used. As a result, Chinese students (and Chinese professors of English as well) form thoughts they want to express in Chinese first and then translate them into English. They use Chinese diction and ideas in English context. One example was given in this column some time ago. A Chinese maitre d'hotel or headwaiter shocked her restaurant guests on arrival by asking "How many people you eat?" instead of a polite "Do you have a reservation?" Writing is not emphasized, either. Perhaps it had better be left unsaid, because it is too hard a nut to crack. Writing ability, which the man (no sexism intended) in the street in any modern society has to have, cannot be acquired without extensive reading and constant practice. English is taught at all schools in the United States. Students are required to study grammar, read English classics, and write essays (Do you think we can teach English that extensively in Taiwan?). And yet, according to one recent study, three out of every ten Americans are functionally illiterate. They cannot fill in complicated forms. Neither can they understand simple instructions on how to install, say, a DIY microwave oven and operate it. All of them can function like literate men or women orally, however. This brings us back to the dearth of good English instructors. Asking students to write essays is not enough to make them proficient writers. Their essays have to be corrected. Moreover, they have to be told why their writings are corrected and what mistakes they make. More important, they have to be taught how to organize their essays and make their argument plausible. In many an American university, all graduating students are required to take a comprehensive English test. Those who fail in the test cannot graduate. Then they are offered an option: to take English 301 (English composition). A pass will allow them to graduate, but many can hardly pass, for some of them are functionally illiterate. All this is proof that American institutions of learning lack enough instructors to teach English composition, make corrections in essays and explain why the corrections are made. Does Taiwan have, or can it acquire, enough English teachers of that high caliber?

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to slow down Taiwan's current English bandwagon. I just want to point to a few road blocks ahead for it, and hope the authorities concerned would not aim as loftily as Yu Shyi-kun did while he was president of the Executive Yuan or premier. He wanted to make English a "quasi-official language" (he must have meant a second official language, next to Mandarin) of the Republic of China in Taiwan in five years.

The following article isn't directly about the Philippines, but it does mention it.

===========================================================================

How to teach English in Taiwan (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/2008/06/09/160163/How-to.htm)

Much has been said about how to teach Chinese students the English language, which is not their mother tongue, after an editorial (which is called a leader in the United Kingdom) appeared in the column next to mine on this page. All the recommendations contributed for improvement of the English teaching in Taiwan certainly are constructive, if not quite rational, but there are some all-but-insurmountable difficulties that have not been mentioned.

One recommendation suggested that first graders be taught English. Of course, it is better to start learning earlier. But that does not guarantee that the children would learn the foreign language better. Filipino and Indian (not American Indian) children start learning English in the first grade (form in England) and the medium of teaching in schools at the next higher level as well as colleges and universities is that language (which is one of their national languages) too. Most of the college graduates in India and the Philippines have a very good, or even an excellent, English-writing proficiency, but many of them, sorry to say, have an accent that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience. Remember, language is spoken. Writing is just one form of language.

Japanese was the medium of teaching in schools at all levels in Taiwan while it was under Japanese colonial rule for five decades. Many ethnic Chinese on Formosa and the Pescadores, Hoklo and Hakka, began learning Japanese while they were still toddlers. Though Japanese is one of the very few languages in the world practically without very difficult sounds to utter, most of the Hoklo had failed to tell the "ar" sound and the "dee" sound apart; they pronounced "oden" in Japanese as "oren," which has wound up as the name of a very popular Taiwanese snack, "black wheel." There are no "sonants" or "voiced sounds" in Hakka; so most of the Hakka Chinese could not correctly pronounce Japanese "ji" and "jiu," which sound the same as their "chi" and "chiu." "Jyuhachi (eighteen)" in Japanese, for instance, is mistaken for "chiuhachi," which means nothing to native Japanese-speakers. These are not the problem of "accent," but that of "allophones." Aside from this problem, many ethnic Chinese speakers of Japanese do very well in oral communication in that language. Is their Japanese good or bad?

Grammar has to be taught. The best way to teach English grammar is to teach it in English. But there is a problem which can hardly be resolved. Chinese is a unique (permit me to use the word) language which can be learned without conscientiously studying grammar. As a matter of fact, Chinese grammar is an import from the West. It consists of nothing but syntax. Each sound or group of sounds is understood as the subject, the predicate, and the object in order of precedence. If it is uttered first, it is the subject. One that follows is the predicate or the verb, and so on and so forth. Also remember one has learned grammar by the time one is about five and a half years old. That means that simple English grammar has to be mastered in about three years. Young Chinese children, who have no knowledge of grammar in their own language, simply cannot learn English grammar by studying it in English at that tender age. They do not have enough knowledge of English to study English grammar in English. Besides, English grammar, though much simpler than Italian or German grammar, is extremely complex to a Chinese, whose mother tongue has no inflection whatsoever, no parts of speech, no tense, no mood, no cases, no verb conjugation, ad infinitum.

Comprehensible input in English is essential to the acquisition of a working command of that language. The question is: Can anyone force students to get such input? English newspapers, magazines and books are abundantly available in Taiwan. Billions of pages in English are literally at the tip of one's finger on the Internet. Will these youngsters read them? No one has suggested good dictionaries. For advanced learners of English, an English-English dictionary is a must. The best any English-Chinese dictionary can offer is, as often as not, a rough equivalent of an English word in Chinese. Learners cannot understand what that word actually means in English and how it is used. As a result, Chinese students (and Chinese professors of English as well) form thoughts they want to express in Chinese first and then translate them into English. They use Chinese diction and ideas in English context. One example was given in this column some time ago. A Chinese maitre d'hotel or headwaiter shocked her restaurant guests on arrival by asking "How many people you eat?" instead of a polite "Do you have a reservation?" Writing is not emphasized, either. Perhaps it had better be left unsaid, because it is too hard a nut to crack. Writing ability, which the man (no sexism intended) in the street in any modern society has to have, cannot be acquired without extensive reading and constant practice. English is taught at all schools in the United States. Students are required to study grammar, read English classics, and write essays (Do you think we can teach English that extensively in Taiwan?). And yet, according to one recent study, three out of every ten Americans are functionally illiterate. They cannot fill in complicated forms. Neither can they understand simple instructions on how to install, say, a DIY microwave oven and operate it. All of them can function like literate men or women orally, however. This brings us back to the dearth of good English instructors. Asking students to write essays is not enough to make them proficient writers. Their essays have to be corrected. Moreover, they have to be told why their writings are corrected and what mistakes they make. More important, they have to be taught how to organize their essays and make their argument plausible. In many an American university, all graduating students are required to take a comprehensive English test. Those who fail in the test cannot graduate. Then they are offered an option: to take English 301 (English composition). A pass will allow them to graduate, but many can hardly pass, for some of them are functionally illiterate. All this is proof that American institutions of learning lack enough instructors to teach English composition, make corrections in essays and explain why the corrections are made. Does Taiwan have, or can it acquire, enough English teachers of that high caliber?

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to slow down Taiwan's current English bandwagon. I just want to point to a few road blocks ahead for it, and hope the authorities concerned would not aim as loftily as Yu Shyi-kun did while he was president of the Executive Yuan or premier. He wanted to make English a "quasi-official language" (he must have meant a second official language, next to Mandarin) of the Republic of China in Taiwan in five years.

I forgot the author of this quote but it was apt for the Cory regime:
The road to perdition is paved with good intentions...

A close enough quote from Stephen King:
The road to hell is paved with adverbs. :lol:


The article says (in blue italics):
Despite a number of studies confirming that learning is faster using the native language, government officials are still pushing for the adoption of English as a medium on instruction (MOI) in Philippine schools.

A check on the bills filed in the 14th Congress shows that there are three bills—House Bills 230, 305, 406—seeking for either the re-instatement or enhancement of the use of English as a medium of instruction.

My thoughts: I generally agree with the first line. However, one must qualify what exactly is the native language they’re driving at since we have not one but many? If again, ad infinitum, they will push Tagalog aka Filipino as “native language” for the provincial schoolchildren, then we will be back to square one of the many arguments we have had in the past. Pushing for their own agenda will put provincial kids at a tremendous disadvantage because they will be grappling to learn Tagalog on top of learning the sciences and mathematics.

Sub-standard English

Businessmen have been complaining of college graduates who are not proficient in English. In 2006, the European Chamber of Commerce estimated that 75 percent of the around 400,000 college graduates have substandard English skills.

Jayjay Viray, general manager of jobhunting website JobsDB.com, said most of their clients complained of applicants who lack good communication skills and have trouble expressing themselves in English. She added that most vacancies in the marketing and business sector require applicants to speak in English.

My thoughts: More and more hi tech companies demand not just rudimentary (basic) or intermediate English language skills. No, they seek advanced speakers literate enough to read through hi tech manuals and understand high end technology. In fact, a growing number conduct in house English language tests to analyze a candidates skills (either for hiring or for promotion).

Panning through the various internet forums, I must agree with the European Chamber of Commerce.

However, EO 210 and its implementing rules and regulation were questioned last year by a group of professors and language experts. The professors and language experts filed a petition with the Supreme Court challenging the orders.

"While the title of the EO purports to strengthen the use of English as a second language, analyses of the contents show that the EO actually strengthens English as the medium of instruction," the petition said.

Petitioners argued that the (1) EO subverts the present status of Filipino in non-Tagalog areas, and violates the constitutional injunction that the regional language shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction, (2) violates the constitutional duty to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino language in the educational system and (3) "undermines the letter and spirit of the Constitution on the national language."

My thoughts: (1) How ironic that as educators they themselves fail to see or they simply refuse to see that Tagalog aka Filipino is an added burden and thus detrimental to provincial schoolchildren. Since when had the regional language served as auxiliary in any capacity? I had never heard the formal teaching of Ylonggo, Ilocano or Cebuano in any regional classroom? What are these people claiming?
(2) What has been violated is not the use of Filipino per se but the spirit of that 1935 Constitution which envisioned that Filipino is “supposed” to be a mixture (in EQUAL proportions) of ALL Filipino languages, and not just one. These “educators” are barking up the wrong tree.
(3) What had been undermined were the ideals of the First Phil. Republic and the Malolos Constitution on the national language issue – the Malolos Constitution was clear on Spanish as the unifying language with the mother/ native tongue as auxiliary. The “letter and spirit” of our forefathers and the ideals of our national heroes which they continually invoke; and yet, paradoxically, continually ignore on education related issues.

Mother tongue is best

Language experts also criticized the EO 210 and the pending bills because they go against the findings of previous studies that learning is faster when the mother tongue is used as medium of instruction, particularly during the child’s early years in school.

My thoughts: Again, they better qualify which mother tongue they are referring to because there is not one but many. How can the good of one far outweigh the good of the many?

In a CEO forum on English last year, Patricia B. Licuanan, president of Miriam College, said empirical evidence has shown the damaging effects of English on Filipino student learning since the 1925, when the Monroe Survey Commission found out that foreign language handicap was the greatest problem of the Philippine educational system. Back then, the American colonial government prescribed the use of English as medium of instruction.

"When English is used, students do not learn well, and at times do not learn at all," Licuanan said. "Using English as medium of instruction in some subject areas [Math and Science] prevents students from learning as much as they could in their mother tongue."

My thoughts: Is this so called president of Miriam College actually saying all the generation of my parents and uncles, the baby boomer generation of the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s, suffered from comprehension handicaps and lasting damage on their literacy or whatever? I beg to disagree for crying out loud. The lady is pushing for an agenda. The generation who grew up in the Commonwealth and the post-war era were far better educated and more erudite than the generation who grew up in the post Cory Aquino educational system. The evidence is overwhelming and one simply has to be blind not to see it.

National Artist for Literature and UP College of Arts and Letters Dean Virgilio Almario said in an interview that the use of Filipino language is not tantamount to the decline in English proficiency.

"Even if all classes will be conducted in Filipino, English will not die because it will remain to be a necessity," said Almario, who is among those who filed the petition challenging EO 210.

My thoughts: A tall order and one that is full of hot air and bravado rather than actual substance. How does the gentleman propose to improve English skills if one is not immersed enough in it? Has he conveniently forgotten the disastrous Spanish experiment wherein students are only given token Spanish courses to enroll in just for the sake of saying they have had Spanish in college? So few is always equal to non proficiency and eventual erosion.

Train the teachers

Almario added that in order to improve the English proficiency of students, there is a need to re-train the teachers because most of them are also not proficient in English.

My thoughts: Finally, a sentence I can agree on. The basic rule, rubbish in, rubbish out.

Carleen Sedilla, a former public high school English teacher in Caloocan and now the principal of Caloocan City Science High School, said the situation is aggravated by students’ limited exposure to the language. "Before, they can learn English by watching cartoons and TV shows. Now, everything is in Filipino."

"Do you expect them to learn if they have limited exposure to the English language and if their teachers do not speak good English?" she said.

My thoughts: A school after my own heart… The principal is making more sense than any of the self proclaimed illustrious men of education above!!! Hence, there is a need for more exposure to the classics and great English literature.

One recommendation suggested that first graders be taught English. Of course, it is better to start learning earlier. But that does not guarantee that the children would learn the foreign language better. Filipino and Indian (not American Indian) children start learning English in the first grade (form in England) and the medium of teaching in schools at the next higher level as well as colleges and universities is that language (which is one of their national languages) too. Most of the college graduates in India and the Philippines have a very good, or even an excellent, English-writing proficiency, but many of them, sorry to say, have an accent that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience. Remember, language is spoken. Writing is just one form of language.

My thoughts: Which is why I had always advocated for the need to watch classic English movies for the basic and intermediate learners. I’m not so sure about the writing skills of new generation Filipinos. The author must be kidding. As far as I had observed, I’m not fully convinced.

I forgot the author of this quote but it was apt for the Cory regime:
The road to perdition is paved with good intentions...

A close enough quote from Stephen King:
The road to hell is paved with adverbs. :lol:


The article says (in blue italics):
Despite a number of studies confirming that learning is faster using the native language, government officials are still pushing for the adoption of English as a medium on instruction (MOI) in Philippine schools.

A check on the bills filed in the 14th Congress shows that there are three bills—House Bills 230, 305, 406—seeking for either the re-instatement or enhancement of the use of English as a medium of instruction.

My thoughts: I generally agree with the first line. However, one must qualify what exactly is the native language they’re driving at since we have not one but many? If again, ad infinitum, they will push Tagalog aka Filipino as “native language” for the provincial schoolchildren, then we will be back to square one of the many arguments we have had in the past. Pushing for their own agenda will put provincial kids at a tremendous disadvantage because they will be grappling to learn Tagalog on top of learning the sciences and mathematics.

Sub-standard English

Businessmen have been complaining of college graduates who are not proficient in English. In 2006, the European Chamber of Commerce estimated that 75 percent of the around 400,000 college graduates have substandard English skills.

Jayjay Viray, general manager of jobhunting website JobsDB.com, said most of their clients complained of applicants who lack good communication skills and have trouble expressing themselves in English. She added that most vacancies in the marketing and business sector require applicants to speak in English.

My thoughts: More and more hi tech companies demand not just rudimentary (basic) or intermediate English language skills. No, they seek advanced speakers literate enough to read through hi tech manuals and understand high end technology. In fact, a growing number conduct in house English language tests to analyze a candidates skills (either for hiring or for promotion).

Panning through the various internet forums, I must agree with the European Chamber of Commerce.

However, EO 210 and its implementing rules and regulation were questioned last year by a group of professors and language experts. The professors and language experts filed a petition with the Supreme Court challenging the orders.

"While the title of the EO purports to strengthen the use of English as a second language, analyses of the contents show that the EO actually strengthens English as the medium of instruction," the petition said.

Petitioners argued that the (1) EO subverts the present status of Filipino in non-Tagalog areas, and violates the constitutional injunction that the regional language shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction, (2) violates the constitutional duty to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino language in the educational system and (3) "undermines the letter and spirit of the Constitution on the national language."

My thoughts: (1) How ironic that as educators they themselves fail to see or they simply refuse to see that Tagalog aka Filipino is an added burden and thus detrimental to provincial schoolchildren. Since when had the regional language served as auxiliary in any capacity? I had never heard the formal teaching of Ylonggo, Ilocano or Cebuano in any regional classroom? What are these people claiming?
(2) What has been violated is not the use of Filipino per se but the spirit of that 1935 Constitution which envisioned that Filipino is “supposed” to be a mixture (in EQUAL proportions) of ALL Filipino languages, and not just one. These “educators” are barking up the wrong tree.
(3) What had been undermined were the ideals of the First Phil. Republic and the Malolos Constitution on the national language issue – the Malolos Constitution was clear on Spanish as the unifying language with the mother/ native tongue as auxiliary. The “letter and spirit” of our forefathers and the ideals of our national heroes which they continually invoke; and yet, paradoxically, continually ignore on education related issues.

Mother tongue is best

Language experts also criticized the EO 210 and the pending bills because they go against the findings of previous studies that learning is faster when the mother tongue is used as medium of instruction, particularly during the child’s early years in school.

My thoughts: Again, they better qualify which mother tongue they are referring to because there is not one but many. How can the good of one far outweigh the good of the many?

In a CEO forum on English last year, Patricia B. Licuanan, president of Miriam College, said empirical evidence has shown the damaging effects of English on Filipino student learning since the 1925, when the Monroe Survey Commission found out that foreign language handicap was the greatest problem of the Philippine educational system. Back then, the American colonial government prescribed the use of English as medium of instruction.

"When English is used, students do not learn well, and at times do not learn at all," Licuanan said. "Using English as medium of instruction in some subject areas [Math and Science] prevents students from learning as much as they could in their mother tongue."

My thoughts: Is this so called president of Miriam College actually saying all the generation of my parents and uncles, the baby boomer generation of the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s, suffered from comprehension handicaps and lasting damage on their literacy or whatever? I beg to disagree for crying out loud. The lady is pushing for an agenda. The generation who grew up in the Commonwealth and the post-war era were far better educated and more erudite than the generation who grew up in the post Cory Aquino educational system. The evidence is overwhelming and one simply has to be blind not to see it.

National Artist for Literature and UP College of Arts and Letters Dean Virgilio Almario said in an interview that the use of Filipino language is not tantamount to the decline in English proficiency.

"Even if all classes will be conducted in Filipino, English will not die because it will remain to be a necessity," said Almario, who is among those who filed the petition challenging EO 210.

My thoughts: A tall order and one that is full of hot air and bravado rather than actual substance. How does the gentleman propose to improve English skills if one is not immersed enough in it? Has he conveniently forgotten the disastrous Spanish experiment wherein students are only given token Spanish courses to enroll in just for the sake of saying they have had Spanish in college? So few is always equal to non proficiency and eventual erosion.

Train the teachers

Almario added that in order to improve the English proficiency of students, there is a need to re-train the teachers because most of them are also not proficient in English.

My thoughts: Finally, a sentence I can agree on. The basic rule, rubbish in, rubbish out.

Carleen Sedilla, a former public high school English teacher in Caloocan and now the principal of Caloocan City Science High School, said the situation is aggravated by students’ limited exposure to the language. "Before, they can learn English by watching cartoons and TV shows. Now, everything is in Filipino."

"Do you expect them to learn if they have limited exposure to the English language and if their teachers do not speak good English?" she said.

My thoughts: A school after my own heart… The principal is making more sense than any of the self proclaimed illustrious men of education above!!! Hence, there is a need for more exposure to the classics and great English literature.

One recommendation suggested that first graders be taught English. Of course, it is better to start learning earlier. But that does not guarantee that the children would learn the foreign language better. Filipino and Indian (not American Indian) children start learning English in the first grade (form in England) and the medium of teaching in schools at the next higher level as well as colleges and universities is that language (which is one of their national languages) too. Most of the college graduates in India and the Philippines have a very good, or even an excellent, English-writing proficiency, but many of them, sorry to say, have an accent that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience. Remember, language is spoken. Writing is just one form of language.

My thoughts: Which is why I had always advocated for the need to watch classic English movies for the basic and intermediate learners. I’m not so sure about the writing skills of new generation Filipinos. The author must be kidding. As far as I had observed, I’m not fully convinced.

William Collins. 1721–1759


HOW sleep the brave, who sink to rest
By all their country's wishes blest!
When Spring, with dewy fingers cold,
Returns to deck their hallow'd mould,
She there shall dress a sweeter sod
Than Fancy's feet have ever trod.

By fairy hands their knell is rung;
By forms unseen their dirge is sung;
There Honour comes, a pilgrim grey,
To bless the turf that wraps their clay;
And Freedom shall awhile repair
To dwell, a weeping hermit, there!
:cheers2:

William Collins. 1721–1759


HOW sleep the brave, who sink to rest
By all their country's wishes blest!
When Spring, with dewy fingers cold,
Returns to deck their hallow'd mould,
She there shall dress a sweeter sod
Than Fancy's feet have ever trod.

By fairy hands their knell is rung;
By forms unseen their dirge is sung;
There Honour comes, a pilgrim grey,
To bless the turf that wraps their clay;
And Freedom shall awhile repair
To dwell, a weeping hermit, there!
:cheers2:

Beowulf was written (or told) way before Chaucer (circa 8th to 11th century). The language at the time of Beowulf is Old English (Anglo-Saxon), which is a highly Germanic one (check post# 739). Beowulf's author is still unknown. Chaucer's language is Middle English.

Sir Geoffrey Chaucer wrote the Canterbury Tales.

Beowulf was written (or told) way before Chaucer (circa 8th to 11th century). The language at the time of Beowulf is Old English (Anglo-Saxon), which is a highly Germanic one (check post# 739). Beowulf's author is still unknown. Chaucer's language is Middle English.

Sir Geoffrey Chaucer wrote the Canterbury Tales.

Geoffrey Chaucer. 1340?–1400


O YONGE fresshe folkes, he or she,
In which that love up groweth with your age,
Repeyreth hoom from worldly vanitee,
And of your herte up-casteth the visage
To thilke god that after his image
Yow made, and thinketh al nis but a fayre
This world, that passeth sone as floures fayre.

And loveth him, the which that right for love
Upon a cros, our soules for to beye,
First starf, and roos, and sit in hevene a-bove;
For he nil falsen no wight, dar I seye,
That wol his herte al hoolly on him leye.
And sin he best to love is, and most meke,
What nedeth feyned loves for to seke?
:cheers2:

GLOSS: repeyreth = repair ye. starf = died

Geoffrey Chaucer. 1340?–1400


O YONGE fresshe folkes, he or she,
In which that love up groweth with your age,
Repeyreth hoom from worldly vanitee,
And of your herte up-casteth the visage
To thilke god that after his image
Yow made, and thinketh al nis but a fayre
This world, that passeth sone as floures fayre.

And loveth him, the which that right for love
Upon a cros, our soules for to beye,
First starf, and roos, and sit in hevene a-bove;
For he nil falsen no wight, dar I seye,
That wol his herte al hoolly on him leye.
And sin he best to love is, and most meke,
What nedeth feyned loves for to seke?
:cheers2:

GLOSS: repeyreth = repair ye. starf = died

Geoffrey Chaucer. 1340?–1400


HYD, Absolon, thy gilte tresses clere;
Ester, ley thou thy meknesse al a-doun;
Hyd, Jonathas, al thy frendly manere;
Penalopee, and Marcia Catoun,
Mak of your wyfhod no comparisoun;
Hyde ye your beautes, Isoude and Eleyne;
My lady cometh, that al this may disteyne.

Thy faire body, lat hit nat appere,
Lavyne; and thou, Lucresse of Rome toun,
And Polixene, that boghten love so dere,
And Cleopatre, with al thy passioun,
Hyde ye your trouthe of love and your renoun;
And thou, Tisbe, that hast of love swich peyne;
My lady cometh, that al this may disteyne.

Herro, Dido, Laudomia, alle y-fere,
And Phyllis, hanging for thy Demophoun,
And Canace, espyed by thy chere,
Ysiphile, betraysed with Jasoun,
Maketh of your trouthe neyther boost ne soun;
Nor Ypermistre or Adriane, ye tweyne;
My lady cometh, that al this may distevne.
:cheers2:

GLOSS: disteyne] bedim. y-fere] together.

Geoffrey Chaucer. 1340?–1400


HYD, Absolon, thy gilte tresses clere;
Ester, ley thou thy meknesse al a-doun;
Hyd, Jonathas, al thy frendly manere;
Penalopee, and Marcia Catoun,
Mak of your wyfhod no comparisoun;
Hyde ye your beautes, Isoude and Eleyne;
My lady cometh, that al this may disteyne.

Thy faire body, lat hit nat appere,
Lavyne; and thou, Lucresse of Rome toun,
And Polixene, that boghten love so dere,
And Cleopatre, with al thy passioun,
Hyde ye your trouthe of love and your renoun;
And thou, Tisbe, that hast of love swich peyne;
My lady cometh, that al this may disteyne.

Herro, Dido, Laudomia, alle y-fere,
And Phyllis, hanging for thy Demophoun,
And Canace, espyed by thy chere,
Ysiphile, betraysed with Jasoun,
Maketh of your trouthe neyther boost ne soun;
Nor Ypermistre or Adriane, ye tweyne;
My lady cometh, that al this may distevne.
:cheers2:

GLOSS: disteyne] bedim. y-fere] together.

Spreading English as opposed to Taglish (http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2008/june/10/yehey/business/20080610bus11.html)

Filipinos may sometimes take jocular pride in their mastery of “Taglish”—the home bred version of the Queen’s English (as the Brit’s would define their native tongue). But it is in their fluency of the unexpurgated version of the undisputed international language of global business that Filipinos are slowly but steadily conquering the Business Process Outsourcing industry and doing the country proud—while at the same time keeping the coffers of the Treasury rattling nicely.

The novelist Oscar Wilde famously quipped that Britain and the United States were separated by a common language. But it would seem that Filipinos have very cleverly been ben able to use any discrepancies between “American” and “British” English to their solid advantage.

Cebu Rep. Eduardo Gullas, a noted educator to boot, tells us that ample government spending and strong support from the country’s booming information technology-enabled BPO industry have in recent times helped in a big way to build up the English language skills of many Filipinos.

The lawmaker was reacting to the results of a new Social Weather Stations survey showing a marked improvement in the self-assessed English competence of Filipinos over the last two years.

“The survey results indicate that, at the very least, we have averted a further deterioration in our English proficiency. The results imply that in terms of English mastery, we are basically back to same levels as 1993 and 2000, which are much better compared to 2006 levels,” Gullas pointed out.

As it happens Gullas is author of House Bill 305, which seeks to reinforce the English skills of Filipinos by reinstating the language as medium of instruction in all school levels. The bill has already been endorsed by 207 of the 240 members of the House of the Representatives.

In the March 2008 SWS survey, about of 76 percent of 1,200 voting-age Filipinos polled said they could understand spoken English. This is 11 percentage points higher the 65 percent who said they could understand spoken English, in a similar SWS survey in March 2006.

Gullas credits “timely interventions” by the Arroyo administration as well as the aggressive fortification campaigns by the BPO industry for the initial gains in restoring the English skills of Filipinos.

“Over the last three years, the administration has wisely invested hundreds of millions of pesos to support the in-service English retooling of public school teachers. This year alone, the education department is spending P500 million for this purpose,” Gullas said.

He also said that the Technical Education and Skills Development Authority is investing the bulk of its P2-billion training fund this year to sustain short courses that would advance the English skills of the country’s labor force.

The Cebu lawmaker—who has been warning that Filipinos who fail to master English risk getting marginalized in the lucrative job markets of the futureboth here and abroad—said the BPO industry also deserves much credit for devoting considerable resources to hone the English skills of undergraduates, college graduates and young professionals.

Gullas points out that the offices of BPO providers here, led by world-class call centers, have been bustling with English augmentation seminars. The sponsors employ some of the trainees. Some of the trainees move on to other firms or industries but they still gain from the crash courses.

He noted: “What is really positive is that we have heightened public awareness of the importance of adequate English skills in obtaining high-paying jobs and other gainful economic opportunities.”

Spreading English as opposed to Taglish (http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2008/june/10/yehey/business/20080610bus11.html)

Filipinos may sometimes take jocular pride in their mastery of “Taglish”—the home bred version of the Queen’s English (as the Brit’s would define their native tongue). But it is in their fluency of the unexpurgated version of the undisputed international language of global business that Filipinos are slowly but steadily conquering the Business Process Outsourcing industry and doing the country proud—while at the same time keeping the coffers of the Treasury rattling nicely.

The novelist Oscar Wilde famously quipped that Britain and the United States were separated by a common language. But it would seem that Filipinos have very cleverly been ben able to use any discrepancies between “American” and “British” English to their solid advantage.

Cebu Rep. Eduardo Gullas, a noted educator to boot, tells us that ample government spending and strong support from the country’s booming information technology-enabled BPO industry have in recent times helped in a big way to build up the English language skills of many Filipinos.

The lawmaker was reacting to the results of a new Social Weather Stations survey showing a marked improvement in the self-assessed English competence of Filipinos over the last two years.

“The survey results indicate that, at the very least, we have averted a further deterioration in our English proficiency. The results imply that in terms of English mastery, we are basically back to same levels as 1993 and 2000, which are much better compared to 2006 levels,” Gullas pointed out.

As it happens Gullas is author of House Bill 305, which seeks to reinforce the English skills of Filipinos by reinstating the language as medium of instruction in all school levels. The bill has already been endorsed by 207 of the 240 members of the House of the Representatives.

In the March 2008 SWS survey, about of 76 percent of 1,200 voting-age Filipinos polled said they could understand spoken English. This is 11 percentage points higher the 65 percent who said they could understand spoken English, in a similar SWS survey in March 2006.

Gullas credits “timely interventions” by the Arroyo administration as well as the aggressive fortification campaigns by the BPO industry for the initial gains in restoring the English skills of Filipinos.

“Over the last three years, the administration has wisely invested hundreds of millions of pesos to support the in-service English retooling of public school teachers. This year alone, the education department is spending P500 million for this purpose,” Gullas said.

He also said that the Technical Education and Skills Development Authority is investing the bulk of its P2-billion training fund this year to sustain short courses that would advance the English skills of the country’s labor force.

The Cebu lawmaker—who has been warning that Filipinos who fail to master English risk getting marginalized in the lucrative job markets of the futureboth here and abroad—said the BPO industry also deserves much credit for devoting considerable resources to hone the English skills of undergraduates, college graduates and young professionals.

Gullas points out that the offices of BPO providers here, led by world-class call centers, have been bustling with English augmentation seminars. The sponsors employ some of the trainees. Some of the trainees move on to other firms or industries but they still gain from the crash courses.

He noted: “What is really positive is that we have heightened public awareness of the importance of adequate English skills in obtaining high-paying jobs and other gainful economic opportunities.”

Geoffrey Chaucer. 1340?–1400


A TRIPLE ROUNDEL

1. CAPTIVITY


YOUR eyen two wol slee me sodenly,
I may the beautè of hem not sustene,
So woundeth hit through-out my herte kene.

And but your word wol helen hastily
My hertes wounde, whyl that hit is grene,
Your eyen two wol slee me sodenly,
I may the beautè of hem not sustene.

Upon my trouthe I sey yow feithfully,
That ye ben of my lyf and deeth the quene;
For with my deeth the trouthe shal be sene.
Your eyen two wol slee me sodenly,
I may the beautè of hem not sustene,
So woundeth hit through-out my herte kene.

2. REJECTION


So hath your beautè fro your herte chaced
Pitee, that me ne availeth not to pleyne;
For Daunger halt your mercy in his cheyne.

Giltles my deeth thus han ye me purchaced;
I sey yow sooth, me nedeth not to feyne;
So hath your beautè fro your herte chaced
Pitee, that me ne availeth not to pleyne.

Allas! that nature hath in yow compassed
So greet beautè, that no man may atteyne
To mercy, though he sterve for the peyne.
So hath your beautè fro your herte chaced
Pitee, that me ne availeth not to pleyne;
For Daunger halt your mercy in his cheyne.

3. ESCAPE


Sin I fro Love escaped am so fat,
I never thenk to ben in his prison lene;
Sin I am free, I counte him not a bene.

He may answere, and seye this or that;
I do no fors, I speke right as I mene.
Sin I fro Love escaped am so fat,
I never thenk to ben in his prison lene.

Love hath my name y-strike out of his sclat,
And he is strike out of my bokes clene
For ever-mo; ther is non other mene.
Sin I fro Love escaped am so fat,
I never thenk to ben in his prison lene;
Sin I am free, I counte him not a bene.
:cheers2:

GLOSS: halt] holdeth. sclat] slate.

Geoffrey Chaucer. 1340?–1400


A TRIPLE ROUNDEL

1. CAPTIVITY


YOUR eyen two wol slee me sodenly,
I may the beautè of hem not sustene,
So woundeth hit through-out my herte kene.

And but your word wol helen hastily
My hertes wounde, whyl that hit is grene,
Your eyen two wol slee me sodenly,
I may the beautè of hem not sustene.

Upon my trouthe I sey yow feithfully,
That ye ben of my lyf and deeth the quene;
For with my deeth the trouthe shal be sene.
Your eyen two wol slee me sodenly,
I may the beautè of hem not sustene,
So woundeth hit through-out my herte kene.

2. REJECTION


So hath your beautè fro your herte chaced
Pitee, that me ne availeth not to pleyne;
For Daunger halt your mercy in his cheyne.

Giltles my deeth thus han ye me purchaced;
I sey yow sooth, me nedeth not to feyne;
So hath your beautè fro your herte chaced
Pitee, that me ne availeth not to pleyne.

Allas! that nature hath in yow compassed
So greet beautè, that no man may atteyne
To mercy, though he sterve for the peyne.
So hath your beautè fro your herte chaced
Pitee, that me ne availeth not to pleyne;
For Daunger halt your mercy in his cheyne.

3. ESCAPE


Sin I fro Love escaped am so fat,
I never thenk to ben in his prison lene;
Sin I am free, I counte him not a bene.

He may answere, and seye this or that;
I do no fors, I speke right as I mene.
Sin I fro Love escaped am so fat,
I never thenk to ben in his prison lene.

Love hath my name y-strike out of his sclat,
And he is strike out of my bokes clene
For ever-mo; ther is non other mene.
Sin I fro Love escaped am so fat,
I never thenk to ben in his prison lene;
Sin I am free, I counte him not a bene.
:cheers2:

GLOSS: halt] holdeth. sclat] slate.

Robert Burns. 1759–1796


SHOULD auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to min'?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And days o' lang syne?

We twa hae rin about the braes,
And pu'd the gowans fine;
But we've wander'd monie a weary fit
Sin' auld lang syne.

We twa hae paidl't i' the burn,
Frae mornin' sun till dine;
But seas between us braid hae roar'd
Sin' auld lang syne.

And here 's a hand, my trusty fiere,
And gie's a hand o' thine;
And we'll tak a right guid-willie waught
For auld lang syne.

And surely ye'll be your pint-stowp,
And surely I'll be mine;
And we'll tak a cup o' kindness yet
For auld lang syne!

For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne,
We'll tak a cup o' kindness yet
For auld lang syne.
:cheers2:

GLOSS: gowans] daisies. fit] foot. dine] dinner-time. fiere] partner. guid-willie waught] friendly draught.

(A more familiar form of English, perhaps. Robert Burns is also the Ploughman Poet, or the Bard of Scotland.)
(All the aforementioned Verses with Numbers were lifted from The Oxford Book of English Verse.)

Robert Burns. 1759–1796


SHOULD auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to min'?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And days o' lang syne?

We twa hae rin about the braes,
And pu'd the gowans fine;
But we've wander'd monie a weary fit
Sin' auld lang syne.

We twa hae paidl't i' the burn,
Frae mornin' sun till dine;
But seas between us braid hae roar'd
Sin' auld lang syne.

And here 's a hand, my trusty fiere,
And gie's a hand o' thine;
And we'll tak a right guid-willie waught
For auld lang syne.

And surely ye'll be your pint-stowp,
And surely I'll be mine;
And we'll tak a cup o' kindness yet
For auld lang syne!

For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne,
We'll tak a cup o' kindness yet
For auld lang syne.
:cheers2:

GLOSS: gowans] daisies. fit] foot. dine] dinner-time. fiere] partner. guid-willie waught] friendly draught.

(A more familiar form of English, perhaps. Robert Burns is also the Ploughman Poet, or the Bard of Scotland.)
(All the aforementioned Verses with Numbers were lifted from The Oxford Book of English Verse.)

Sarah Flower Adams (1805-1848)


Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!
E'en though it be a cross that raiseth me;
Still all my song would be nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
Though like the wanderer, the sun gone down,
Darkness be over me, my rest a stone;
Yet in my dreams I'd be nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
There let the way appear steps unto heav'n;
All that Thou sendest me in mercy giv'n;
Angels to beckon me nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
Then with my waking thoughts bright with Thy praise,
Out of my stony griefs Bethel I'll raise;
So by my woes to be nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
Or if on joyful wing, cleaving the sky,
Sun, moon, and stars forgot, upwards I fly,
Still all my song shall be, nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!
:cheers2:

(On the afternoon of September 13, 1901, after five minutes of silence across the nation, bands in Union and Madison Squares in New York City played the hymn in memory of President William McKinley).
(The hymn was also played as the body of assassinated American President James Garfield was interred at Lakeview Cemetery in Cleveland, Ohio.)
(This song was also played during the funeral of former United States President Gerald R. Ford.)
("Nearer, my God, to Thee" is traditionally associated with the RMS Titanic, as passengers reported that the ship's band played the hymn as the Titanic sank. The hymn was also played in the movie "Titanic".)

Sarah Flower Adams (1805-1848)


Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!
E'en though it be a cross that raiseth me;
Still all my song would be nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
Though like the wanderer, the sun gone down,
Darkness be over me, my rest a stone;
Yet in my dreams I'd be nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
There let the way appear steps unto heav'n;
All that Thou sendest me in mercy giv'n;
Angels to beckon me nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
Then with my waking thoughts bright with Thy praise,
Out of my stony griefs Bethel I'll raise;
So by my woes to be nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!

Chorus
Or if on joyful wing, cleaving the sky,
Sun, moon, and stars forgot, upwards I fly,
Still all my song shall be, nearer, my God, to Thee,
Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee!
:cheers2:

(On the afternoon of September 13, 1901, after five minutes of silence across the nation, bands in Union and Madison Squares in New York City played the hymn in memory of President William McKinley).
(The hymn was also played as the body of assassinated American President James Garfield was interred at Lakeview Cemetery in Cleveland, Ohio.)
(This song was also played during the funeral of former United States President Gerald R. Ford.)
("Nearer, my God, to Thee" is traditionally associated with the RMS Titanic, as passengers reported that the ship's band played the hymn as the Titanic sank. The hymn was also played in the movie "Titanic".)

It might have been mentioned a few pages back, but what is your intention in posting these poems?

Anyway, in kiretoce's posted article.. I swear that writer is freaking verbose. Seriously..unexpurgated.. knowing English doesn't mean knowing every possible long word. Nor is it being able to sound like an American. It's useful to think of our English as similar to Singapore's, having the Filipino Colloquial English and the Standard Filipino English, the latter being the one used for international communication.

It might have been mentioned a few pages back, but what is your intention in posting these poems?

Anyway, in kiretoce's posted article.. I swear that writer is freaking verbose. Seriously..unexpurgated.. knowing English doesn't mean knowing every possible long word. Nor is it being able to sound like an American. It's useful to think of our English as similar to Singapore's, having the Filipino Colloquial English and the Standard Filipino English, the latter being the one used for international communication.

‘Tis part of English advocacy, Professor Watson.

1. Most of the poems posted are of British authorship (including the one above you; the movies were American), so no attempt is made at being too American but at a healthy balance of both. Yea ur right, I thought Chaucer was a bit too much but then again, some were enthralled by it & I think it’s a good sign.

2. The comparison to Singapore may seem plausible at first glance but then again, maybe not. The structure of Singlish is far different from that of Taglish, Singlish still uses grammatically correct English. Standards? Singapore uses the Cambridge system & still adheres to it strictly, the Phils does not. Contrary to the news articles posted and to various postings on the Net, the written grammar leaves much to be desired compared to past generations of Filipinos. :ohno:

3. Like it or not, it was the dual whammy of Hollywood and excellent English prose and poetry (& other literature) which shaped Filipino generations in the Commonwealth and the post war Baby Boomer years. Patricia Licuanan must have been living in Antarctica when she said English had a deleterious effect on the literacy of Filipinos past, present and future. “Damaged literacy”? tsk tsk tsk… :lol:

4. With that kind of mentality, I’m beginning to seriously doubt if any of the new generation teachers there had even read any work by any of the classic authors. Sure, all the English literature books must’ve been gathering dust in all the university libraries there. I have had young nieces coming up to me & saying “teacher told me there is no such thing as a country called Czechoslovakia. Or teacher said “rhinoceros” is pronounced rhee-noh-ke-ros. Or teacher says she had read some works by Shakespeare but that she has never heard of John Milton, Rudyard Kipling, etc etc…” :hilarious

5. The whole point of the exercise is fluency. I’m afraid knowing “just enough” to get by is not nearly enough. (Or is it shades of the “Puede na yan” mentality again?) Like it or not, a growing number of multinational hi tech companies are switching gear and demanding fluent speakers. The basic & intermediate (the puede na yan speakers) are not enough these days to get a promotion or even being hired. More and more hi tech companies are having In House English evaluation tests. Full comprehension (not “puede na yan”) is the key to understanding the new hi tech industries.

But if one’s dream in life is only to aim for the medium to low tech service industries, thence by all means let the nation continue on its path to Taglish greatness. :nuts:

Still unconvinced? Well, at least they make better reading than having to put up with Taglish even on the English thread. :hahaha:

‘Tis part of English advocacy, Professor Watson.

1. Most of the poems posted are of British authorship (including the one above you; the movies were American), so no attempt is made at being too American but at a healthy balance of both. Yea ur right, I thought Chaucer was a bit too much but then again, some were enthralled by it & I think it’s a good sign.

2. The comparison to Singapore may seem plausible at first glance but then again, maybe not. The structure of Singlish is far different from that of Taglish, Singlish still uses grammatically correct English. Standards? Singapore uses the Cambridge system & still adheres to it strictly, the Phils does not. Contrary to the news articles posted and to various postings on the Net, the written grammar leaves much to be desired compared to past generations of Filipinos. :ohno:

3. Like it or not, it was the dual whammy of Hollywood and excellent English prose and poetry (& other literature) which shaped Filipino generations in the Commonwealth and the post war Baby Boomer years. Patricia Licuanan must have been living in Antarctica when she said English had a deleterious effect on the literacy of Filipinos past, present and future. “Damaged literacy”? tsk tsk tsk… :lol:

4. With that kind of mentality, I’m beginning to seriously doubt if any of the new generation teachers there had even read any work by any of the classic authors. Sure, all the English literature books must’ve been gathering dust in all the university libraries there. I have had young nieces coming up to me & saying “teacher told me there is no such thing as a country called Czechoslovakia. Or teacher said “rhinoceros” is pronounced rhee-noh-ke-ros. Or teacher says she had read some works by Shakespeare but that she has never heard of John Milton, Rudyard Kipling, etc etc…” :hilarious

5. The whole point of the exercise is fluency. I’m afraid knowing “just enough” to get by is not nearly enough. (Or is it shades of the “Puede na yan” mentality again?) Like it or not, a growing number of multinational hi tech companies are switching gear and demanding fluent speakers. The basic & intermediate (the puede na yan speakers) are not enough these days to get a promotion or even being hired. More and more hi tech companies are having In House English evaluation tests. Full comprehension (not “puede na yan”) is the key to understanding the new hi tech industries.

But if one’s dream in life is only to aim for the medium to low tech service industries, thence by all means let the nation continue on its path to Taglish greatness. :nuts:

Still unconvinced? Well, at least they make better reading than having to put up with Taglish even on the English thread. :hahaha:

^^ Out of curiosity, mercato, I would like to know where/how you see yourself as far as English proficiency is concerned. Do you consider yourself to be a basic, an intermediate, a fluent, a native or maybe even a perfect English speaker/writer?

^^ Out of curiosity, mercato, I would like to know where/how you see yourself as far as English proficiency is concerned. Do you consider yourself to be a basic, an intermediate, a fluent, a native or maybe even a perfect English speaker/writer?

fair enough, but I fail to see the very importance of traditional classical literature in the establishment of "high tech service industries". I say this with an utmost disdain of verbose English poetry having been required to study it for 2 years here in Sydney. To be honest I don't think it's improved by profiency in any way seeing as I never use Donne's or Coleridge's opium induced language. If the gist of your argument is that classical literature is important to the proficiency of English in the Philippines, then I take you have a classical way of thinking about the English language.

By the way, I think unless you have a keen interest in 13th century England, Chaucer should be of no relevance to anyone who speaks Present Day English or trying to learn PDE.

fair enough, but I fail to see the very importance of traditional classical literature in the establishment of "high tech service industries". I say this with an utmost disdain of verbose English poetry having been required to study it for 2 years here in Sydney. To be honest I don't think it's improved by profiency in any way seeing as I never use Donne's or Coleridge's opium induced language. If the gist of your argument is that classical literature is important to the proficiency of English in the Philippines, then I take you have a classical way of thinking about the English language.

By the way, I think unless you have a keen interest in 13th century England, Chaucer should be of no relevance to anyone who speaks Present Day English or trying to learn PDE.

well, i could use a little help in written English, as you could notice in my other posts, i'm fond of using ellipsis, which, i dont think is a good thing, right?

well, i could use a little help in written English, as you could notice in my other posts, i'm fond of using ellipsis, which, i dont think is a good thing, right?

fair enough, but I fail to see the very importance of traditional classical literature in the establishment of "high tech service industries". I say this with an utmost disdain of verbose English poetry having been required to study it for 2 years here in Sydney. To be honest I don't think it's improved by profiency in any way seeing as I never use Donne's or Coleridge's opium induced language. If the gist of your argument is that classical literature is important to the proficiency of English in the Philippines, then I take you have a classical way of thinking about the English language.

By the way, I think unless you have a keen interest in 13th century England, Chaucer should be of no relevance to anyone who speaks Present Day English or trying to learn PDE.

Actually, having to know old classical English is a great way to start with the contemporary English literature and in learning the evolution of the language. This was how my Peruvian English teacher started our classes in Advance English. I will admit that it will not help in terms of common colloquial speech but in a written perspective its seems to be beneficial. I also do not agree on being too superfluous with words that most people do not hear on my speeches or conversations. :lol:

fair enough, but I fail to see the very importance of traditional classical literature in the establishment of "high tech service industries". I say this with an utmost disdain of verbose English poetry having been required to study it for 2 years here in Sydney. To be honest I don't think it's improved by profiency in any way seeing as I never use Donne's or Coleridge's opium induced language. If the gist of your argument is that classical literature is important to the proficiency of English in the Philippines, then I take you have a classical way of thinking about the English language.

By the way, I think unless you have a keen interest in 13th century England, Chaucer should be of no relevance to anyone who speaks Present Day English or trying to learn PDE.

Actually, having to know old classical English is a great way to start with the contemporary English literature and in learning the evolution of the language. This was how my Peruvian English teacher started our classes in Advance English. I will admit that it will not help in terms of common colloquial speech but in a written perspective its seems to be beneficial. I also do not agree on being too superfluous with words that most people do not hear on my speeches or conversations. :lol:

If you're a scholar, a university researcher or a politician, then I excuse you.

If you're a scholar, a university researcher or a politician, then I excuse you.

The following article isn't directly about the Philippines, but it does mention it.

===========================================================================

How to teach English in Taiwan (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/2008/06/09/160163/How-to.htm)

Much has been said about how to teach Chinese students the English language, which is not their mother tongue, after an editorial (which is called a leader in the United Kingdom) appeared in the column next to mine on this page. All the recommendations contributed for improvement of the English teaching in Taiwan certainly are constructive, if not quite rational, but there are some all-but-insurmountable difficulties that have not been mentioned.

One recommendation suggested that first graders be taught English. Of course, it is better to start learning earlier. But that does not guarantee that the children would learn the foreign language better. Filipino and Indian (not American Indian) children start learning English in the first grade (form in England) and the medium of teaching in schools at the next higher level as well as colleges and universities is that language (which is one of their national languages) too. Most of the college graduates in India and the Philippines have a very good, or even an excellent, English-writing proficiency, but many of them, sorry to say, have an accent that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience. Remember, language is spoken. Writing is just one form of language.

Japanese was the medium of teaching in schools at all levels in Taiwan while it was under Japanese colonial rule for five decades. Many ethnic Chinese on Formosa and the Pescadores, Hoklo and Hakka, began learning Japanese while they were still toddlers. Though Japanese is one of the very few languages in the world practically without very difficult sounds to utter, most of the Hoklo had failed to tell the "ar" sound and the "dee" sound apart; they pronounced "oden" in Japanese as "oren," which has wound up as the name of a very popular Taiwanese snack, "black wheel." There are no "sonants" or "voiced sounds" in Hakka; so most of the Hakka Chinese could not correctly pronounce Japanese "ji" and "jiu," which sound the same as their "chi" and "chiu." "Jyuhachi (eighteen)" in Japanese, for instance, is mistaken for "chiuhachi," which means nothing to native Japanese-speakers. These are not the problem of "accent," but that of "allophones." Aside from this problem, many ethnic Chinese speakers of Japanese do very well in oral communication in that language. Is their Japanese good or bad?

Grammar has to be taught. The best way to teach English grammar is to teach it in English. But there is a problem which can hardly be resolved. Chinese is a unique (permit me to use the word) language which can be learned without conscientiously studying grammar. As a matter of fact, Chinese grammar is an import from the West. It consists of nothing but syntax. Each sound or group of sounds is understood as the subject, the predicate, and the object in order of precedence. If it is uttered first, it is the subject. One that follows is the predicate or the verb, and so on and so forth. Also remember one has learned grammar by the time one is about five and a half years old. That means that simple English grammar has to be mastered in about three years. Young Chinese children, who have no knowledge of grammar in their own language, simply cannot learn English grammar by studying it in English at that tender age. They do not have enough knowledge of English to study English grammar in English. Besides, English grammar, though much simpler than Italian or German grammar, is extremely complex to a Chinese, whose mother tongue has no inflection whatsoever, no parts of speech, no tense, no mood, no cases, no verb conjugation, ad infinitum.

Comprehensible input in English is essential to the acquisition of a working command of that language. The question is: Can anyone force students to get such input? English newspapers, magazines and books are abundantly available in Taiwan. Billions of pages in English are literally at the tip of one's finger on the Internet. Will these youngsters read them? No one has suggested good dictionaries. For advanced learners of English, an English-English dictionary is a must. The best any English-Chinese dictionary can offer is, as often as not, a rough equivalent of an English word in Chinese. Learners cannot understand what that word actually means in English and how it is used. As a result, Chinese students (and Chinese professors of English as well) form thoughts they want to express in Chinese first and then translate them into English. They use Chinese diction and ideas in English context. One example was given in this column some time ago. A Chinese maitre d'hotel or headwaiter shocked her restaurant guests on arrival by asking "How many people you eat?" instead of a polite "Do you have a reservation?" Writing is not emphasized, either. Perhaps it had better be left unsaid, because it is too hard a nut to crack. Writing ability, which the man (no sexism intended) in the street in any modern society has to have, cannot be acquired without extensive reading and constant practice. English is taught at all schools in the United States. Students are required to study grammar, read English classics, and write essays (Do you think we can teach English that extensively in Taiwan?). And yet, according to one recent study, three out of every ten Americans are functionally illiterate. They cannot fill in complicated forms. Neither can they understand simple instructions on how to install, say, a DIY microwave oven and operate it. All of them can function like literate men or women orally, however. This brings us back to the dearth of good English instructors. Asking students to write essays is not enough to make them proficient writers. Their essays have to be corrected. Moreover, they have to be told why their writings are corrected and what mistakes they make. More important, they have to be taught how to organize their essays and make their argument plausible. In many an American university, all graduating students are required to take a comprehensive English test. Those who fail in the test cannot graduate. Then they are offered an option: to take English 301 (English composition). A pass will allow them to graduate, but many can hardly pass, for some of them are functionally illiterate. All this is proof that American institutions of learning lack enough instructors to teach English composition, make corrections in essays and explain why the corrections are made. Does Taiwan have, or can it acquire, enough English teachers of that high caliber?

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to slow down Taiwan's current English bandwagon. I just want to point to a few road blocks ahead for it, and hope the authorities concerned would not aim as loftily as Yu Shyi-kun did while he was president of the Executive Yuan or premier. He wanted to make English a "quasi-official language" (he must have meant a second official language, next to Mandarin) of the Republic of China in Taiwan in five years.

As an international language, English with accents is normal (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/letters/2008/06/12/160683/As-an.htm)

Maybe if Joe Hung will go out more, meet and talk to more people he will find out that a lot of people speak English with an accent. The British, Australians, French, Japanese, South Africans, etc., all speak English with accents. Even within the U.S. there are regional accents.

So, in his article on "How to teach English in Taiwan," when he said that many Indians and Filipinos have an accent when speaking English that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience, the problem might be in his comprehension and grasp of the English language, and not on the speaker.

If he will do some research and not use personal experience as a basis for generalizations he might realize that English proficiency in these two countries is well known in the global marketplace. An example is the proliferation of call centers in these two countries, which is projected to capture 50 percent of the total world English speaking market.

The following article isn't directly about the Philippines, but it does mention it.

===========================================================================

How to teach English in Taiwan (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/2008/06/09/160163/How-to.htm)

Much has been said about how to teach Chinese students the English language, which is not their mother tongue, after an editorial (which is called a leader in the United Kingdom) appeared in the column next to mine on this page. All the recommendations contributed for improvement of the English teaching in Taiwan certainly are constructive, if not quite rational, but there are some all-but-insurmountable difficulties that have not been mentioned.

One recommendation suggested that first graders be taught English. Of course, it is better to start learning earlier. But that does not guarantee that the children would learn the foreign language better. Filipino and Indian (not American Indian) children start learning English in the first grade (form in England) and the medium of teaching in schools at the next higher level as well as colleges and universities is that language (which is one of their national languages) too. Most of the college graduates in India and the Philippines have a very good, or even an excellent, English-writing proficiency, but many of them, sorry to say, have an accent that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience. Remember, language is spoken. Writing is just one form of language.

Japanese was the medium of teaching in schools at all levels in Taiwan while it was under Japanese colonial rule for five decades. Many ethnic Chinese on Formosa and the Pescadores, Hoklo and Hakka, began learning Japanese while they were still toddlers. Though Japanese is one of the very few languages in the world practically without very difficult sounds to utter, most of the Hoklo had failed to tell the "ar" sound and the "dee" sound apart; they pronounced "oden" in Japanese as "oren," which has wound up as the name of a very popular Taiwanese snack, "black wheel." There are no "sonants" or "voiced sounds" in Hakka; so most of the Hakka Chinese could not correctly pronounce Japanese "ji" and "jiu," which sound the same as their "chi" and "chiu." "Jyuhachi (eighteen)" in Japanese, for instance, is mistaken for "chiuhachi," which means nothing to native Japanese-speakers. These are not the problem of "accent," but that of "allophones." Aside from this problem, many ethnic Chinese speakers of Japanese do very well in oral communication in that language. Is their Japanese good or bad?

Grammar has to be taught. The best way to teach English grammar is to teach it in English. But there is a problem which can hardly be resolved. Chinese is a unique (permit me to use the word) language which can be learned without conscientiously studying grammar. As a matter of fact, Chinese grammar is an import from the West. It consists of nothing but syntax. Each sound or group of sounds is understood as the subject, the predicate, and the object in order of precedence. If it is uttered first, it is the subject. One that follows is the predicate or the verb, and so on and so forth. Also remember one has learned grammar by the time one is about five and a half years old. That means that simple English grammar has to be mastered in about three years. Young Chinese children, who have no knowledge of grammar in their own language, simply cannot learn English grammar by studying it in English at that tender age. They do not have enough knowledge of English to study English grammar in English. Besides, English grammar, though much simpler than Italian or German grammar, is extremely complex to a Chinese, whose mother tongue has no inflection whatsoever, no parts of speech, no tense, no mood, no cases, no verb conjugation, ad infinitum.

Comprehensible input in English is essential to the acquisition of a working command of that language. The question is: Can anyone force students to get such input? English newspapers, magazines and books are abundantly available in Taiwan. Billions of pages in English are literally at the tip of one's finger on the Internet. Will these youngsters read them? No one has suggested good dictionaries. For advanced learners of English, an English-English dictionary is a must. The best any English-Chinese dictionary can offer is, as often as not, a rough equivalent of an English word in Chinese. Learners cannot understand what that word actually means in English and how it is used. As a result, Chinese students (and Chinese professors of English as well) form thoughts they want to express in Chinese first and then translate them into English. They use Chinese diction and ideas in English context. One example was given in this column some time ago. A Chinese maitre d'hotel or headwaiter shocked her restaurant guests on arrival by asking "How many people you eat?" instead of a polite "Do you have a reservation?" Writing is not emphasized, either. Perhaps it had better be left unsaid, because it is too hard a nut to crack. Writing ability, which the man (no sexism intended) in the street in any modern society has to have, cannot be acquired without extensive reading and constant practice. English is taught at all schools in the United States. Students are required to study grammar, read English classics, and write essays (Do you think we can teach English that extensively in Taiwan?). And yet, according to one recent study, three out of every ten Americans are functionally illiterate. They cannot fill in complicated forms. Neither can they understand simple instructions on how to install, say, a DIY microwave oven and operate it. All of them can function like literate men or women orally, however. This brings us back to the dearth of good English instructors. Asking students to write essays is not enough to make them proficient writers. Their essays have to be corrected. Moreover, they have to be told why their writings are corrected and what mistakes they make. More important, they have to be taught how to organize their essays and make their argument plausible. In many an American university, all graduating students are required to take a comprehensive English test. Those who fail in the test cannot graduate. Then they are offered an option: to take English 301 (English composition). A pass will allow them to graduate, but many can hardly pass, for some of them are functionally illiterate. All this is proof that American institutions of learning lack enough instructors to teach English composition, make corrections in essays and explain why the corrections are made. Does Taiwan have, or can it acquire, enough English teachers of that high caliber?

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to slow down Taiwan's current English bandwagon. I just want to point to a few road blocks ahead for it, and hope the authorities concerned would not aim as loftily as Yu Shyi-kun did while he was president of the Executive Yuan or premier. He wanted to make English a "quasi-official language" (he must have meant a second official language, next to Mandarin) of the Republic of China in Taiwan in five years.

As an international language, English with accents is normal (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/letters/2008/06/12/160683/As-an.htm)

Maybe if Joe Hung will go out more, meet and talk to more people he will find out that a lot of people speak English with an accent. The British, Australians, French, Japanese, South Africans, etc., all speak English with accents. Even within the U.S. there are regional accents.

So, in his article on "How to teach English in Taiwan," when he said that many Indians and Filipinos have an accent when speaking English that makes conversations with them a highly trying experience, the problem might be in his comprehension and grasp of the English language, and not on the speaker.

If he will do some research and not use personal experience as a basis for generalizations he might realize that English proficiency in these two countries is well known in the global marketplace. An example is the proliferation of call centers in these two countries, which is projected to capture 50 percent of the total world English speaking market.

Accent is relative isn't it. depending on where you live.

Accent is relative isn't it. depending on where you live.

^^ :yes: Accent is indeed relative. Everyone has an accent when speaking English. If an American goes to the UK, people will say that he has an American accent, and the same situation mirrors itself when a Brit comes to the US and and people here will say that he has a British accent.

^^ :yes: Accent is indeed relative. Everyone has an accent when speaking English. If an American goes to the UK, people will say that he has an American accent, and the same situation mirrors itself when a Brit comes to the US and and people here will say that he has a British accent.

^^ Out of curiosity, mercato, I would like to know where/how you see yourself as far as English proficiency is concerned. Do you consider yourself to be a basic, an intermediate, a fluent, a native or maybe even a perfect English speaker/writer? Fairly average…
Enough to land P.R. status in Singapore within 6months and citizenship within 2years without much ado, others take a bit longer though. Of course, my job scale/ grade clinched the deal. But don’t take my word for it, the proof of the pudding is in the eating… In our line of work, the Brits put a high premium on fluency. Compared to my superiors, I am fairly average. :lol:

Think of it as thou wilt driftwood, when I’m under the influence I’m in my least vulnerable moments… :cheers2:

^^ Out of curiosity, mercato, I would like to know where/how you see yourself as far as English proficiency is concerned. Do you consider yourself to be a basic, an intermediate, a fluent, a native or maybe even a perfect English speaker/writer? Fairly average…
Enough to land P.R. status in Singapore within 6months and citizenship within 2years without much ado, others take a bit longer though. Of course, my job scale/ grade clinched the deal. But don’t take my word for it, the proof of the pudding is in the eating… In our line of work, the Brits put a high premium on fluency. Compared to my superiors, I am fairly average. :lol:

Think of it as thou wilt driftwood, when I’m under the influence I’m in my least vulnerable moments… :cheers2:

fair enough, but I fail to see the very importance of traditional classical literature in the establishment of "high tech service industries". I say this with an utmost disdain of verbose English poetry having been required to study it for 2 years here in Sydney. To be honest I don't think it's improved by profiency in any way seeing as I never use Donne's or Coleridge's opium induced language. If the gist of your argument is that classical literature is important to the proficiency of English in the Philippines, then I take you have a classical way of thinking about the English language.

By the way, I think unless you have a keen interest in 13th century England, Chaucer should be of no relevance to anyone who speaks Present Day English or trying to learn PDE. Errr, traditionally, Language teachers always teach the classics to their students. That’s usually how it is done. I’m sorry to hear that your Aussie professors must’ve been sadly mistaken in using these methods on you, perhaps you must know of better methods than they? Of course, as one who now has a functional knowledge of the language, you now disdain things which you consider trite and child’s play, tsk tsk tsk. :lol:

By no means had I said that classical literature is the only means of achieving fluency but a part of the whole equation; but it certainly plays an important role, too. Fluency is achieved by using ALL means at your disposal and not limiting yourself to what “teacher” spoon-feeds you.

If you had actually read through all of it, I had at some point in time mentioned Hollywood movies (w/c is never boring) in relation to certain poems. The Chaucer tidbits were only a sideshow since someone showed a Youtube clip. Majority of the poems were non Chaucer whilst some had familiar themes. Had you never heard of The Children’s Hour? Better still, how is one to promote the English language and literature here? I’m beginning to wonder myself? :weird:

So how would one teach the basics of English or any language to college and high school students these days? I too am curious, how do Filipino teachers teach their pupils now? Do they begin by teaching kids manuals from Fujitsu, Matsushita, or Sony? :lol:

But seriously now…
… In some circles in the western world, ‘tis sometimes called “for art’s sake” or appreciation of the arts, of the literary variety, that is. But what do some people know about art appreciation, right? :cheers:

fair enough, but I fail to see the very importance of traditional classical literature in the establishment of "high tech service industries". I say this with an utmost disdain of verbose English poetry having been required to study it for 2 years here in Sydney. To be honest I don't think it's improved by profiency in any way seeing as I never use Donne's or Coleridge's opium induced language. If the gist of your argument is that classical literature is important to the proficiency of English in the Philippines, then I take you have a classical way of thinking about the English language.

By the way, I think unless you have a keen interest in 13th century England, Chaucer should be of no relevance to anyone who speaks Present Day English or trying to learn PDE. Errr, traditionally, Language teachers always teach the classics to their students. That’s usually how it is done. I’m sorry to hear that your Aussie professors must’ve been sadly mistaken in using these methods on you, perhaps you must know of better methods than they? Of course, as one who now has a functional knowledge of the language, you now disdain things which you consider trite and child’s play, tsk tsk tsk. :lol:

By no means had I said that classical literature is the only means of achieving fluency but a part of the whole equation; but it certainly plays an important role, too. Fluency is achieved by using ALL means at your disposal and not limiting yourself to what “teacher” spoon-feeds you.

If you had actually read through all of it, I had at some point in time mentioned Hollywood movies (w/c is never boring) in relation to certain poems. The Chaucer tidbits were only a sideshow since someone showed a Youtube clip. Majority of the poems were non Chaucer whilst some had familiar themes. Had you never heard of The Children’s Hour? Better still, how is one to promote the English language and literature here? I’m beginning to wonder myself? :weird:

So how would one teach the basics of English or any language to college and high school students these days? I too am curious, how do Filipino teachers teach their pupils now? Do they begin by teaching kids manuals from Fujitsu, Matsushita, or Sony? :lol:

But seriously now…
… In some circles in the western world, ‘tis sometimes called “for art’s sake” or appreciation of the arts, of the literary variety, that is. But what do some people know about art appreciation, right? :cheers:

Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe.
- Galileo Galilei (1564 - 1642)

Ok, Ok don't take me out on this, take it out on Mr. Galilei.
But in what language is Mathematics best taught to Filipinos these days? Is it not in English? That is part of the reason why Filipino schoolkids in California outperform their Viet counterparts in word problems, or so I read...

Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe.
- Galileo Galilei (1564 - 1642)

Ok, Ok don't take me out on this, take it out on Mr. Galilei.
But in what language is Mathematics best taught to Filipinos these days? Is it not in English? That is part of the reason why Filipino schoolkids in California outperform their Viet counterparts in word problems, or so I read...

So how would one teach the basics of English or any language to college and high school students these days? I too am curious, how do Filipino teachers teach their pupils now? Do they begin by teaching kids manuals from Fujitsu, Matsushita, or Sony? :lol:


If that's your idea of contemporary literature, then I guess so be it. I'm pretty sure writers and great English novels still existed in the 20th century. I believe modern texts (novel or even film) can be used to promote English fluency. Underneath all the classical literature that has been ignored. And before we can get high school students reading classical literature, I think there must be an effort in elementary schools to be reading novels as early as 3rd or 4th grade. I remember when I moved from the Philippines to an international school in Belgium just how much reading they did compared to what I used to do. I agree that English teaching in the Philippines shouldn't be TESOL-like, it should be as if it was a national language.

I don't want to veer too much from my initial question, which was what was the intention of these poems. I asked that because all of these poems seemed to be classical writings, all before the Second World War, and are dominantly English. Anyway I think I've made my point clear enough, and from my perspective I have understood yours and if you want to take it further then we will have to agree to disagree.

So how would one teach the basics of English or any language to college and high school students these days? I too am curious, how do Filipino teachers teach their pupils now? Do they begin by teaching kids manuals from Fujitsu, Matsushita, or Sony? :lol:


If that's your idea of contemporary literature, then I guess so be it. I'm pretty sure writers and great English novels still existed in the 20th century. I believe modern texts (novel or even film) can be used to promote English fluency. Underneath all the classical literature that has been ignored. And before we can get high school students reading classical literature, I think there must be an effort in elementary schools to be reading novels as early as 3rd or 4th grade. I remember when I moved from the Philippines to an international school in Belgium just how much reading they did compared to what I used to do. I agree that English teaching in the Philippines shouldn't be TESOL-like, it should be as if it was a national language.

I don't want to veer too much from my initial question, which was what was the intention of these poems. I asked that because all of these poems seemed to be classical writings, all before the Second World War, and are dominantly English. Anyway I think I've made my point clear enough, and from my perspective I have understood yours and if you want to take it further then we will have to agree to disagree.

I agree that English teaching in the Philippines shouldn't be TESOL-like, it should be as if it was a national language.

I don't want to veer too much from my initial question, which was what was the intention of these poems. I asked that because all of these poems seemed to be classical writings, all before the Second World War, and are dominantly English. Now we can get along very, very, very well with this first sentence, indeed... I concur. :banana:

Yes, they all are pre War since I was thinking of kids on the intermediate and university levels. (Yea, I should've qualified w/c age group I had in mind). The 2nd objective is to encourage adolescents to be wide readers. They can read the classics on their own free time, much in the same way they read modern romances and science fiction. :lol:

I agree that English teaching in the Philippines shouldn't be TESOL-like, it should be as if it was a national language.

I don't want to veer too much from my initial question, which was what was the intention of these poems. I asked that because all of these poems seemed to be classical writings, all before the Second World War, and are dominantly English. Now we can get along very, very, very well with this first sentence, indeed... I concur. :banana:

Yes, they all are pre War since I was thinking of kids on the intermediate and university levels. (Yea, I should've qualified w/c age group I had in mind). The 2nd objective is to encourage adolescents to be wide readers. They can read the classics on their own free time, much in the same way they read modern romances and science fiction. :lol:

Actually, having to know old classical English is a great way to start with the contemporary English literature and in learning the evolution of the language. This was how my Peruvian English teacher started our classes in Advance English. I will admit that it will not help in terms of common colloquial speech but in a written perspective its seems to be beneficial. I also do not agree on being too superfluous with words that most people do not hear on my speeches or conversations. :lol: Hola @bai animo, 'tis a pity but yea, I would looove someday to feast on works by Gabriela Marquez, Pablo Neruda or the Spanish works of Paulo Coelho. Hah, that'll be the day...
If only our ultranationalists hadn't messed up, Filipinas today would be just like Puerto Rico, fluent in both Spanish and English - with Spanish as national language. :D

(hmmm, thinking about Puerto Rico,.......) :|

Actually, having to know old classical English is a great way to start with the contemporary English literature and in learning the evolution of the language. This was how my Peruvian English teacher started our classes in Advance English. I will admit that it will not help in terms of common colloquial speech but in a written perspective its seems to be beneficial. I also do not agree on being too superfluous with words that most people do not hear on my speeches or conversations. :lol: Hola @bai animo, 'tis a pity but yea, I would looove someday to feast on works by Gabriela Marquez, Pablo Neruda or the Spanish works of Paulo Coelho. Hah, that'll be the day...
If only our ultranationalists hadn't messed up, Filipinas today would be just like Puerto Rico, fluent in both Spanish and English - with Spanish as national language. :D

(hmmm, thinking about Puerto Rico,.......) :|

Think of it as thou wilt driftwood, Oh, don't worry about that, I always do. In fact, I'll come right out and say it. I could be wrong, but I think you're a prententious git.

when I’m under the influence I’m in my least vulnerable moments… :cheers2:I don't even want to know what you mean by this, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Fairly average…
Enough to land P.R. status in Singapore within 6months and citizenship within 2years without much ado, others take a bit longer though. Of course, my job scale/ grade clinched the deal. But don’t take my word for it, the proof of the pudding is in the eating… In our line of work, the Brits put a high premium on fluency. Compared to my superiors, I am fairly average. :lol:I see, fairly average, eh? By British standards, of course!!! So, it probably means that you're more fluent than the average Juan de la Cruz, and most likely know more than "just enough."

But I guess it also means that you're still allowed to make grammatical mistakes, as evidenced by at least one of your previous posts. (#783 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=21614338&postcount=783) - Need I point out where?)

After all, you're still human, right? (Or so I hope.)

Think of it as thou wilt driftwood, Oh, don't worry about that, I always do. In fact, I'll come right out and say it. I could be wrong, but I think you're a prententious git.

when I’m under the influence I’m in my least vulnerable moments… :cheers2:I don't even want to know what you mean by this, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Fairly average…
Enough to land P.R. status in Singapore within 6months and citizenship within 2years without much ado, others take a bit longer though. Of course, my job scale/ grade clinched the deal. But don’t take my word for it, the proof of the pudding is in the eating… In our line of work, the Brits put a high premium on fluency. Compared to my superiors, I am fairly average. :lol:I see, fairly average, eh? By British standards, of course!!! So, it probably means that you're more fluent than the average Juan de la Cruz, and most likely know more than "just enough."

But I guess it also means that you're still allowed to make grammatical mistakes, as evidenced by at least one of your previous posts. (#783 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=21614338&postcount=783) - Need I point out where?)

After all, you're still human, right? (Or so I hope.)

Looks like the heat is on in this page one more time... he he

It's really nice to have a good knowledge in the english language, especially if you are in a profession where you would deal with alot of professionals and send formal or even an informal letter to a certain official or a "VIP" but alot of times, one can be very good in written english but when you started dealing with the more conversational english, they fail. I mean, American, Brits,* Kiwis and Aussies, even Canadians and Irish would look at you 'weird" if you started talking this way to them, even if they are highly educated.. I've noticed that many many filipinos are very "wordy" when if comes to written english, but when you talk to them, your only response to them is "huh?"

The only thing that caught my eyes are what Mercato commented about how he wished that the Philippines or the filipinos would be just like the Puerto Rican... No offense to the Ricans and no offense to Mercato, there are some nice Rican people out there alright, but, I do not want to be compared to the majority of them. One, alot of them are rude people, second, a great many of them has no regards for morality, alot of them has a high incidence of producing offsprings out of wedlock, their work ethics is horrible.I've noticed also that a number of those who has a real deep desire to change the Philippine's mother tongue into Spanish more especifically are the Bisayan folks here, if not into english. I understand their dislike in tagalog but why not promote their own native language? Is this their lack of regional/national pride, culture shock and colonial mentality or is it simply a third world mentality? I don't get it???? We can critisize the tagalog people for being terrible in english language but somehow, I see the rest of the filipinos who has more national pride and expresses more their sense of nationalism. Again, i'm not generalizing everybody, It's just an observation I've picked up from the language thread...

Looks like the heat is on in this page one more time... he he

It's really nice to have a good knowledge in the english language, especially if you are in a profession where you would deal with alot of professionals and send formal or even an informal letter to a certain official or a "VIP" but alot of times, one can be very good in written english but when you started dealing with the more conversational english, they fail. I mean, American, Brits,* Kiwis and Aussies, even Canadians and Irish would look at you 'weird" if you started talking this way to them, even if they are highly educated.. I've noticed that many many filipinos are very "wordy" when if comes to written english, but when you talk to them, your only response to them is "huh?"

The only thing that caught my eyes are what Mercato commented about how he wished that the Philippines or the filipinos would be just like the Puerto Rican... No offense to the Ricans and no offense to Mercato, there are some nice Rican people out there alright, but, I do not want to be compared to the majority of them. One, alot of them are rude people, second, a great many of them has no regards for morality, alot of them has a high incidence of producing offsprings out of wedlock, their work ethics is horrible.I've noticed also that a number of those who has a real deep desire to change the Philippine's mother tongue into Spanish more especifically are the Bisayan folks here, if not into english. I understand their dislike in tagalog but why not promote their own native language? Is this their lack of regional/national pride, culture shock and colonial mentality or is it simply a third world mentality? I don't get it???? We can critisize the tagalog people for being terrible in english language but somehow, I see the rest of the filipinos who has more national pride and expresses more their sense of nationalism. Again, i'm not generalizing everybody, It's just an observation I've picked up from the language thread...

^^ Hawaii would be a nicer place for Pinoys than Puerto Rico. Hindi ma out of place ang Pinoy duon. :lol:

^^ Hawaii would be a nicer place for Pinoys than Puerto Rico. Hindi ma out of place ang Pinoy duon. :lol:

Oh, don't worry about that, I always do. In fact, I'll come right out and say it. I could be wrong, but I think you're a prententious git.

I don't even want to know what you mean by this, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I see, fairly average, eh? By British standards, of course!!! So, it probably means that you're more fluent than the average Juan de la Cruz, and most likely know more than "just enough."

But I guess it also means that you're still allowed to make grammatical mistakes, as evidenced by at least one of your previous posts. (#783 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=21614338&postcount=783) - Need I point out where?)

After all, you're still human, right? (Or so I hope.)There’s nothing pretentious about my I.P address. (but I’ll get back to that later).
Hah! Lost your temper so soon? Good, goooood. Give in to your hate. Release your anger and your journey to the dark side will be complete. (another Hollywood movie). I think I ought to dub thee, Clint Driftwood. Now, now, name calling begets name calling…

I said fairly average, didn’t I answer your crafty question? I know ur line of questioning was leading somewhere and did you honestly believe I’d fall for that? Nowhere did I claim to be the Divine Messiah and yet here you are jumping to conclusions. “Perfect”, indeed; ur just putting words where there was none before. :sly:

What of it if mistakes were made? Do I stop speaking English altogether and revert to your beloved Taglish? NO, that would be the Filipino mentality. NO, I carry on and work harder; except in these cases cos I rarely proofread net posts. (I’m sure you must do it all the time). I can even recall a hundred more errors on two other forums. I know of it but it doesn’t get me down nor do I make it an excuse to work less. My motto is always self-improvement. :cool:

Oh blind Pharisee, what makes you think you’re any smarter? What about u, what had u done or championed for causes in here? Enlighten me cos unlike u, I’m lazy at digging up archives. I mean here you are, a smartass lurker, and all you’re posting are ad hominems (like the first salvo u fired on the other thread) and stabbing venom from time to time. From recent memory since I joined SSC all your posts had been anything but. “Hey, whatever” – ur nonchalant clichés, I presume? Ok, hey whatever gets you off ur rockers then. :hilarious

How do they say it in English, you deserve no less than to reap the whirlwind. Re your post about Andres Bonifacio in the Spanish thread, I can see where ur coming from and boy, am I glad Emilio Aguinaldo killed your hero. :lol:

I think you’re the quintessential jealous Filipino office crab (talangka) and boy, am I also glad I’m out of your neck of the woods. I’m glad I live in a society based on meritocracy. Ah yes, where were we? The IP Address – any hi tech Mod these days can trace IP Addresses and servers to their places of origin. The technology is already there since 9/11. Mine (like everyone else’s) is an open one. The Mods can easily track down my IP address to Singapura but the previous English poems were sent from hotel servers in a city called Amsterdam. :D

Oh, don't worry about that, I always do. In fact, I'll come right out and say it. I could be wrong, but I think you're a prententious git.

I don't even want to know what you mean by this, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I see, fairly average, eh? By British standards, of course!!! So, it probably means that you're more fluent than the average Juan de la Cruz, and most likely know more than "just enough."

But I guess it also means that you're still allowed to make grammatical mistakes, as evidenced by at least one of your previous posts. (#783 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=21614338&postcount=783) - Need I point out where?)

After all, you're still human, right? (Or so I hope.)There’s nothing pretentious about my I.P address. (but I’ll get back to that later).
Hah! Lost your temper so soon? Good, goooood. Give in to your hate. Release your anger and your journey to the dark side will be complete. (another Hollywood movie). I think I ought to dub thee, Clint Driftwood. Now, now, name calling begets name calling…

I said fairly average, didn’t I answer your crafty question? I know ur line of questioning was leading somewhere and did you honestly believe I’d fall for that? Nowhere did I claim to be the Divine Messiah and yet here you are jumping to conclusions. “Perfect”, indeed; ur just putting words where there was none before. :sly:

What of it if mistakes were made? Do I stop speaking English altogether and revert to your beloved Taglish? NO, that would be the Filipino mentality. NO, I carry on and work harder; except in these cases cos I rarely proofread net posts. (I’m sure you must do it all the time). I can even recall a hundred more errors on two other forums. I know of it but it doesn’t get me down nor do I make it an excuse to work less. My motto is always self-improvement. :cool:

Oh blind Pharisee, what makes you think you’re any smarter? What about u, what had u done or championed for causes in here? Enlighten me cos unlike u, I’m lazy at digging up archives. I mean here you are, a smartass lurker, and all you’re posting are ad hominems (like the first salvo u fired on the other thread) and stabbing venom from time to time. From recent memory since I joined SSC all your posts had been anything but. “Hey, whatever” – ur nonchalant clichés, I presume? Ok, hey whatever gets you off ur rockers then. :hilarious

How do they say it in English, you deserve no less than to reap the whirlwind. Re your post about Andres Bonifacio in the Spanish thread, I can see where ur coming from and boy, am I glad Emilio Aguinaldo killed your hero. :lol:

I think you’re the quintessential jealous Filipino office crab (talangka) and boy, am I also glad I’m out of your neck of the woods. I’m glad I live in a society based on meritocracy. Ah yes, where were we? The IP Address – any hi tech Mod these days can trace IP Addresses and servers to their places of origin. The technology is already there since 9/11. Mine (like everyone else’s) is an open one. The Mods can easily track down my IP address to Singapura but the previous English poems were sent from hotel servers in a city called Amsterdam. :D

:horse::hilarious
Looks like the heat is on in this page one more time... he he Yes, mwg. I see we have a classic example of the insecure Filipino crab weaving his web again. You may not know of it but it is prevalent in Manila office culture.

I remember another young lad (I can’t recall w/c thread again but maybe Clint can do the digging for us) ask why most OFWs refrain from going home to work. In my case, I’d been there, done that. I know the prevailing office culture in Manila and it is vastly different from the office culture over here. In a typical Manila office we have the so called lurkers who go about pretending to be ordinary & nice but in reality they are the quintessential backstabbers and crabs. They excel in weaving webs of intrigue and deceit (that on top of their work). Filipino crabs have the knack of bringing down people and their timings are usually done with clockwork precision. I’m sure u must have vaguely heard of rumours about these creatures but yea, I assure u they exist and are real.

I am glad I am out of that nightmarish office culture and in a real professional outfit. It reminds one of Peter Keating in The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand. Strange, isn’t it? Poems posted in the Philippine Poetry thread were considered harmless even if most were done in English whilst English poems on the English Thread are harmful. Can u figure that out?

Ei mods, I know sites like Facebook can track down servers & IPs… :cheers2:

:horse::hilarious
Looks like the heat is on in this page one more time... he he Yes, mwg. I see we have a classic example of the insecure Filipino crab weaving his web again. You may not know of it but it is prevalent in Manila office culture.

I remember another young lad (I can’t recall w/c thread again but maybe Clint can do the digging for us) ask why most OFWs refrain from going home to work. In my case, I’d been there, done that. I know the prevailing office culture in Manila and it is vastly different from the office culture over here. In a typical Manila office we have the so called lurkers who go about pretending to be ordinary & nice but in reality they are the quintessential backstabbers and crabs. They excel in weaving webs of intrigue and deceit (that on top of their work). Filipino crabs have the knack of bringing down people and their timings are usually done with clockwork precision. I’m sure u must have vaguely heard of rumours about these creatures but yea, I assure u they exist and are real.

I am glad I am out of that nightmarish office culture and in a real professional outfit. It reminds one of Peter Keating in The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand. Strange, isn’t it? Poems posted in the Philippine Poetry thread were considered harmless even if most were done in English whilst English poems on the English Thread are harmful. Can u figure that out?

Ei mods, I know sites like Facebook can track down servers & IPs… :cheers2:

Oh, I agree with you about creatures like those you are refering to but it seems to not cease to amaze me as to which one it really is. How funny you've actually mentioned that.

The Manila office you are refering to wasn't run by one tribe alone, there are representative of all different tribes, as we already knew it, the incumbent president is not a pure tagalog herself just to give an example, so, why would she even favor one over the other when she can favor one of her own? We even have bisaya, Ilonggo, Ilocano in the Manila office as part of their government that form the whole unit into one. but just like maggot, they eat flesh to no avail. And as far as backstabbers are concerned? I've run into not just one but too many actually, so, I know the feeling.

With how filipinos alone acted and pretended to be this and that, a foreigner could only wonder who are those with crab mentality let alone be generalized as they see us as one not far different from one another.

Oh, I agree with you about creatures like those you are refering to but it seems to not cease to amaze me as to which one it really is. How funny you've actually mentioned that.

The Manila office you are refering to wasn't run by one tribe alone, there are representative of all different tribes, as we already knew it, the incumbent president is not a pure tagalog herself just to give an example, so, why would she even favor one over the other when she can favor one of her own? We even have bisaya, Ilonggo, Ilocano in the Manila office as part of their government that form the whole unit into one. but just like maggot, they eat flesh to no avail. And as far as backstabbers are concerned? I've run into not just one but too many actually, so, I know the feeling.

With how filipinos alone acted and pretended to be this and that, a foreigner could only wonder who are those with crab mentality let alone be generalized as they see us as one not far different from one another.

:horse::hilarious
Yes, mwg. I see we have a classic example of the insecure Filipino crab weaving his web again. You may not know of it but it is prevalent in Manila office culture.

I remember another young lad (I can’t recall w/c thread again but maybe Clint can do the digging for us) ask why most OFWs refrain from going home to work. In my case, I’d been there, done that. I know the prevailing office culture in Manila and it is vastly different from the office culture over here. In a typical Manila office we have the so called lurkers who go about pretending to be ordinary & nice but in reality they are the quintessential backstabbers and crabs. They excel in weaving webs of intrigue and deceit (that on top of their work). Filipino crabs have the knack of bringing down people and their timings are usually done with clockwork precision. I’m sure u must have vaguely heard of rumours about these creatures but yea, I assure u they exist and are real.

I am glad I am out of that nightmarish office culture and in a real professional outfit. It reminds one of Peter Keating in The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand. Strange, isn’t it? Poems posted in the Philippine Poetry thread were considered harmless even if most were done in English whilst English poems on the English Thread are harmful. Can u figure that out?

Ei mods, I know sites like Facebook can track down servers & IPs… :cheers2:

hehehehe @Mercato. I might not ever write and speak excellent english like you and definitely cannot articulate my thoughts into words better than you, but I will never compare two different groups of people and suggest that the persons you are with are superior more than the other.

:horse::hilarious
Yes, mwg. I see we have a classic example of the insecure Filipino crab weaving his web again. You may not know of it but it is prevalent in Manila office culture.

I remember another young lad (I can’t recall w/c thread again but maybe Clint can do the digging for us) ask why most OFWs refrain from going home to work. In my case, I’d been there, done that. I know the prevailing office culture in Manila and it is vastly different from the office culture over here. In a typical Manila office we have the so called lurkers who go about pretending to be ordinary & nice but in reality they are the quintessential backstabbers and crabs. They excel in weaving webs of intrigue and deceit (that on top of their work). Filipino crabs have the knack of bringing down people and their timings are usually done with clockwork precision. I’m sure u must have vaguely heard of rumours about these creatures but yea, I assure u they exist and are real.

I am glad I am out of that nightmarish office culture and in a real professional outfit. It reminds one of Peter Keating in The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand. Strange, isn’t it? Poems posted in the Philippine Poetry thread were considered harmless even if most were done in English whilst English poems on the English Thread are harmful. Can u figure that out?

Ei mods, I know sites like Facebook can track down servers & IPs… :cheers2:

hehehehe @Mercato. I might not ever write and speak excellent english like you and definitely cannot articulate my thoughts into words better than you, but I will never compare two different groups of people and suggest that the persons you are with are superior more than the other.

@mwg,
My oh my, I’m getting tired of clicking up on quotes just to reply so I might as well address u directly. Not at all, that is the pervading Manila culture, and ur right – the worst (or the best) traits of ALL our tribes. (Something about the air in the city, I suppose). Remember I also said I was immersed in Batangueño Tagalog while living amongst them & I had also promoted in another thread the lovely beaches of Laiya in San Juan. These people are absolutely charming and wonderful. If I run out of relatives in Cebu I’d choose Batangas as my retirement place. Any town between Lipa to San Juan is fantastic. Mind you, they also see themselves as promdi just like us. To them it’s all about the cityslickers, mw.

Yea, sort of but I’m never a snitch. But I can be the guy w/ the tail, a pitchfork & 2 horns when DUI. (or when its my turn at karaoke). Heck, I was even condemned to eternal damnation by one fellow in another forum. Bummer… :lol:

@portludlow,
Oh, no, no, no we must avoid the use of “better”, “superior” or anything of the sort. Anything we say can and will be used against us in a court of law. Hmmm, don’t worry I was clearly referring to Office Cultures, the mindset of colleagues and not to the racial/ ethnic profiles. It’s nauseating to go into all the sordid details of office politics over there, … for now.

But it pleases me to no end when good Filipino youngsters come over here, imitate their foreign masters and actually do better than the locals at work. The kids can actually do it!!!!! (sigh)If they could only transfer that kind of work mentality to Manila, can u imagine the repercussions… :cheers:

@mwg,
My oh my, I’m getting tired of clicking up on quotes just to reply so I might as well address u directly. Not at all, that is the pervading Manila culture, and ur right – the worst (or the best) traits of ALL our tribes. (Something about the air in the city, I suppose). Remember I also said I was immersed in Batangueño Tagalog while living amongst them & I had also promoted in another thread the lovely beaches of Laiya in San Juan. These people are absolutely charming and wonderful. If I run out of relatives in Cebu I’d choose Batangas as my retirement place. Any town between Lipa to San Juan is fantastic. Mind you, they also see themselves as promdi just like us. To them it’s all about the cityslickers, mw.

Yea, sort of but I’m never a snitch. But I can be the guy w/ the tail, a pitchfork & 2 horns when DUI. (or when its my turn at karaoke). Heck, I was even condemned to eternal damnation by one fellow in another forum. Bummer… :lol:

@portludlow,
Oh, no, no, no we must avoid the use of “better”, “superior” or anything of the sort. Anything we say can and will be used against us in a court of law. Hmmm, don’t worry I was clearly referring to Office Cultures, the mindset of colleagues and not to the racial/ ethnic profiles. It’s nauseating to go into all the sordid details of office politics over there, … for now.

But it pleases me to no end when good Filipino youngsters come over here, imitate their foreign masters and actually do better than the locals at work. The kids can actually do it!!!!! (sigh)If they could only transfer that kind of work mentality to Manila, can u imagine the repercussions… :cheers:

@mwg,

@portludlow,
Oh, no, no, no we must avoid the use of “better”, “superior” or anything of the sort. Anything we say can and will be used against us in a court of law. Hmmm, don’t worry I was clearly referring to Office Cultures, the mindset of colleagues and not to the racial/ ethnic profiles. It’s nauseating to go into all the sordid details of office politics over there, … for now.

But it pleases me to no end when good Filipino youngsters come over here, imitate their foreign masters and actually do better than the locals at work. The kids can actually do it!!!!! (sigh)If they could only transfer that kind of work mentality to Manila, can u imagine the repercussions… :cheers:


Fair enough @Mercato. I just want to remind you of the fact that office culture and politics is an equal opportunity problem, color blind and transcends every ethnic group.

You seem to suggest that ours is less refined and yours is more exemplary. Nobody should claim that theirs is preferable more than others. If you are not oblivious of the prevailing office politics in your workplace then you are probably out of the loop and dont make hard choices with regards to the direction of your company.

While speaking and writing superb english will get you somewhere. Its not enough to propel you to a higher level without being tactful in its practice.

@mwg,

@portludlow,
Oh, no, no, no we must avoid the use of “better”, “superior” or anything of the sort. Anything we say can and will be used against us in a court of law. Hmmm, don’t worry I was clearly referring to Office Cultures, the mindset of colleagues and not to the racial/ ethnic profiles. It’s nauseating to go into all the sordid details of office politics over there, … for now.

But it pleases me to no end when good Filipino youngsters come over here, imitate their foreign masters and actually do better than the locals at work. The kids can actually do it!!!!! (sigh)If they could only transfer that kind of work mentality to Manila, can u imagine the repercussions… :cheers:


Fair enough @Mercato. I just want to remind you of the fact that office culture and politics is an equal opportunity problem, color blind and transcends every ethnic group.

You seem to suggest that ours is less refined and yours is more exemplary. Nobody should claim that theirs is preferable more than others. If you are not oblivious of the prevailing office politics in your workplace then you are probably out of the loop and dont make hard choices with regards to the direction of your company.

While speaking and writing superb english will get you somewhere. Its not enough to propel you to a higher level without being tactful in its practice.

Looks like the heat is on in this page one more time... he he

It's really nice to have a good knowledge in the english language, especially if you are in a profession where you would deal with alot of professionals and send formal or even an informal letter to a certain official or a "VIP" but alot of times, one can be very good in written english but when you started dealing with the more conversational english, they fail. I mean, American, Brits,* Kiwis and Aussies, even Canadians and Irish would look at you 'weird" if you started talking this way to them, even if they are highly educated.. I've noticed that many many filipinos are very "wordy" when if comes to written english, but when you talk to them, your only response to them is "huh?"

The only thing that caught my eyes are what Mercato commented about how he wished that the Philippines or the filipinos would be just like the Puerto Rican... No offense to the Ricans and no offense to Mercato, there are some nice Rican people out there alright, but, I do not want to be compared to the majority of them. One, alot of them are rude people, second, a great many of them has no regards for morality, alot of them has a high incidence of producing offsprings out of wedlock, their work ethics is horrible.I've noticed also that a number of those who has a real deep desire to change the Philippine's mother tongue into Spanish more especifically are the Bisayan folks here, if not into english. I understand their dislike in tagalog but why not promote their own native language? Is this their lack of regional/national pride, culture shock and colonial mentality or is it simply a third world mentality? I don't get it???? We can critisize the tagalog people for being terrible in english language but somehow, I see the rest of the filipinos who has more national pride and expresses more their sense of nationalism. Again, i'm not generalizing everybody, It's just an observation I've picked up from the language thread...

I agree with this ,I mean about idolizing Puerto Ricans. he he
I like the Filipino culture better which gives high regard to family values and a bit more conservative. It's the reason why Fils in the US have one of the highest median household income since more than likely the household is intact and not broken. Sadly Fils in the PHils seem to emulate the Western ways too much that the traditional family values are degenerating. Especially with the stupid artistas over there

Looks like the heat is on in this page one more time... he he

It's really nice to have a good knowledge in the english language, especially if you are in a profession where you would deal with alot of professionals and send formal or even an informal letter to a certain official or a "VIP" but alot of times, one can be very good in written english but when you started dealing with the more conversational english, they fail. I mean, American, Brits,* Kiwis and Aussies, even Canadians and Irish would look at you 'weird" if you started talking this way to them, even if they are highly educated.. I've noticed that many many filipinos are very "wordy" when if comes to written english, but when you talk to them, your only response to them is "huh?"

The only thing that caught my eyes are what Mercato commented about how he wished that the Philippines or the filipinos would be just like the Puerto Rican... No offense to the Ricans and no offense to Mercato, there are some nice Rican people out there alright, but, I do not want to be compared to the majority of them. One, alot of them are rude people, second, a great many of them has no regards for morality, alot of them has a high incidence of producing offsprings out of wedlock, their work ethics is horrible.I've noticed also that a number of those who has a real deep desire to change the Philippine's mother tongue into Spanish more especifically are the Bisayan folks here, if not into english. I understand their dislike in tagalog but why not promote their own native language? Is this their lack of regional/national pride, culture shock and colonial mentality or is it simply a third world mentality? I don't get it???? We can critisize the tagalog people for being terrible in english language but somehow, I see the rest of the filipinos who has more national pride and expresses more their sense of nationalism. Again, i'm not generalizing everybody, It's just an observation I've picked up from the language thread...

I agree with this ,I mean about idolizing Puerto Ricans. he he
I like the Filipino culture better which gives high regard to family values and a bit more conservative. It's the reason why Fils in the US have one of the highest median household income since more than likely the household is intact and not broken. Sadly Fils in the PHils seem to emulate the Western ways too much that the traditional family values are degenerating. Especially with the stupid artistas over there

:horse::hilarious
Yes, mwg. I see we have a classic example of the insecure Filipino crab weaving his web again. You may not know of it but it is prevalent in Manila office culture.

I remember another young lad (I can’t recall w/c thread again but maybe Clint can do the digging for us) ask why most OFWs refrain from going home to work. In my case, I’d been there, done that. I know the prevailing office culture in Manila and it is vastly different from the office culture over here. In a typical Manila office we have the so called lurkers who go about pretending to be ordinary & nice but in reality they are the quintessential backstabbers and crabs. They excel in weaving webs of intrigue and deceit (that on top of their work). Filipino crabs have the knack of bringing down people and their timings are usually done with clockwork precision. I’m sure u must have vaguely heard of rumours about these creatures but yea, I assure u they exist and are real.

I am glad I am out of that nightmarish office culture and in a real professional outfit. It reminds one of Peter Keating in The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand. Strange, isn’t it? Poems posted in the Philippine Poetry thread were considered harmless even if most were done in English whilst English poems on the English Thread are harmful. Can u figure that out?

Ei mods, I know sites like Facebook can track down servers & IPs… :cheers2:

Is it possible that the office lurker is just that ordinary and nice. Sometimes we have to evaluate things and people also at face value without giving malice or ulterior motive . Don't you have to be a crab yourself to recognize a fellow crab:lol: It could be a membership thing. :lol:

:horse::hilarious
Yes, mwg. I see we have a classic example of the insecure Filipino crab weaving his web again. You may not know of it but it is prevalent in Manila office culture.

I remember another young lad (I can’t recall w/c thread again but maybe Clint can do the digging for us) ask why most OFWs refrain from going home to work. In my case, I’d been there, done that. I know the prevailing office culture in Manila and it is vastly different from the office culture over here. In a typical Manila office we have the so called lurkers who go about pretending to be ordinary & nice but in reality they are the quintessential backstabbers and crabs. They excel in weaving webs of intrigue and deceit (that on top of their work). Filipino crabs have the knack of bringing down people and their timings are usually done with clockwork precision. I’m sure u must have vaguely heard of rumours about these creatures but yea, I assure u they exist and are real.

I am glad I am out of that nightmarish office culture and in a real professional outfit. It reminds one of Peter Keating in The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand. Strange, isn’t it? Poems posted in the Philippine Poetry thread were considered harmless even if most were done in English whilst English poems on the English Thread are harmful. Can u figure that out?

Ei mods, I know sites like Facebook can track down servers & IPs… :cheers2:

Is it possible that the office lurker is just that ordinary and nice. Sometimes we have to evaluate things and people also at face value without giving malice or ulterior motive . Don't you have to be a crab yourself to recognize a fellow crab:lol: It could be a membership thing. :lol:

There’s nothing pretentious about my I.P address. (but I’ll get back to that later).
Hah! Lost your temper so soon? Good, goooood. Give in to your hate. Release your anger and your journey to the dark side will be complete. (another Hollywood movie). I think I ought to dub thee, Clint Driftwood. Now, now, name calling begets name calling…

I said fairly average, didn’t I answer your crafty question? I know ur line of questioning was leading somewhere and did you honestly believe I’d fall for that? Nowhere did I claim to be the Divine Messiah and yet here you are jumping to conclusions. “Perfect”, indeed; ur just putting words where there was none before. :sly:

What of it if mistakes were made? Do I stop speaking English altogether and revert to your beloved Taglish? NO, that would be the Filipino mentality. NO, I carry on and work harder; except in these cases cos I rarely proofread net posts. (I’m sure you must do it all the time). I can even recall a hundred more errors on two other forums. I know of it but it doesn’t get me down nor do I make it an excuse to work less. My motto is always self-improvement. :cool:

Oh blind Pharisee, what makes you think you’re any smarter? What about u, what had u done or championed for causes in here? Enlighten me cos unlike u, I’m lazy at digging up archives. I mean here you are, a smartass lurker, and all you’re posting are ad hominems (like the first salvo u fired on the other thread) and stabbing venom from time to time. From recent memory since I joined SSC all your posts had been anything but. “Hey, whatever” – ur nonchalant clichés, I presume? Ok, hey whatever gets you off ur rockers then. :hilarious

How do they say it in English, you deserve no less than to reap the whirlwind. Re your post about Andres Bonifacio in the Spanish thread, I can see where ur coming from and boy, am I glad Emilio Aguinaldo killed your hero. :lol:

I think you’re the quintessential jealous Filipino office crab (talangka) and boy, am I also glad I’m out of your neck of the woods. I’m glad I live in a society based on meritocracy. Ah yes, where were we? The IP Address – any hi tech Mod these days can trace IP Addresses and servers to their places of origin. The technology is already there since 9/11. Mine (like everyone else’s) is an open one. The Mods can easily track down my IP address to Singapura but the previous English poems were sent from hotel servers in a city called Amsterdam. :D
:rofl:

1. Clint Driftwood? Cool! Thanks!

2. Beloved Taglish? :dunno:

3. Me, smarter? Now, where did you get that idea? :lol: (Oh, but if you''re interested, I don't presume to be smarter than anyone here.)

4. Digging up archives? I saw the mistakes on the first pass. Didn't need to dig anything up. But at least you're open to self-improvement, though I guess the laziness occasionally gets in the way, so much so that you don't bother proofreading your posts.

5. Championing causes? To borrow your words, I'm no Divine Messiah. And like you, I'm also lazy.

6. Ad hominems and the occasional venom? I reserve these for those who deserve them... again when I'm not feeling too lazy.

7. My hero? You presume too much. Killed by Aguinaldo? You mean betrayed.

8. My neck of the woods? Again, you presume too much. ;)

9. Amsterdam? So you've been to Europe... so what? So you're a Singapore national now... so what? Why do you feel the need to bring things up like these?

10. Talangka mentality? For you, baby, I'll go all the way.

:rofl:

P.S. On the other hand, I do believe in giving credit where it's due. I don't have a problem with you posting classic English poetry here... in fact, I think it's a good idea and has some inherent value.

There’s nothing pretentious about my I.P address. (but I’ll get back to that later).
Hah! Lost your temper so soon? Good, goooood. Give in to your hate. Release your anger and your journey to the dark side will be complete. (another Hollywood movie). I think I ought to dub thee, Clint Driftwood. Now, now, name calling begets name calling…

I said fairly average, didn’t I answer your crafty question? I know ur line of questioning was leading somewhere and did you honestly believe I’d fall for that? Nowhere did I claim to be the Divine Messiah and yet here you are jumping to conclusions. “Perfect”, indeed; ur just putting words where there was none before. :sly:

What of it if mistakes were made? Do I stop speaking English altogether and revert to your beloved Taglish? NO, that would be the Filipino mentality. NO, I carry on and work harder; except in these cases cos I rarely proofread net posts. (I’m sure you must do it all the time). I can even recall a hundred more errors on two other forums. I know of it but it doesn’t get me down nor do I make it an excuse to work less. My motto is always self-improvement. :cool:

Oh blind Pharisee, what makes you think you’re any smarter? What about u, what had u done or championed for causes in here? Enlighten me cos unlike u, I’m lazy at digging up archives. I mean here you are, a smartass lurker, and all you’re posting are ad hominems (like the first salvo u fired on the other thread) and stabbing venom from time to time. From recent memory since I joined SSC all your posts had been anything but. “Hey, whatever” – ur nonchalant clichés, I presume? Ok, hey whatever gets you off ur rockers then. :hilarious

How do they say it in English, you deserve no less than to reap the whirlwind. Re your post about Andres Bonifacio in the Spanish thread, I can see where ur coming from and boy, am I glad Emilio Aguinaldo killed your hero. :lol:

I think you’re the quintessential jealous Filipino office crab (talangka) and boy, am I also glad I’m out of your neck of the woods. I’m glad I live in a society based on meritocracy. Ah yes, where were we? The IP Address – any hi tech Mod these days can trace IP Addresses and servers to their places of origin. The technology is already there since 9/11. Mine (like everyone else’s) is an open one. The Mods can easily track down my IP address to Singapura but the previous English poems were sent from hotel servers in a city called Amsterdam. :D
:rofl:

1. Clint Driftwood? Cool! Thanks!

2. Beloved Taglish? :dunno:

3. Me, smarter? Now, where did you get that idea? :lol: (Oh, but if you''re interested, I don't presume to be smarter than anyone here.)

4. Digging up archives? I saw the mistakes on the first pass. Didn't need to dig anything up. But at least you're open to self-improvement, though I guess the laziness occasionally gets in the way, so much so that you don't bother proofreading your posts.

5. Championing causes? To borrow your words, I'm no Divine Messiah. And like you, I'm also lazy.

6. Ad hominems and the occasional venom? I reserve these for those who deserve them... again when I'm not feeling too lazy.

7. My hero? You presume too much. Killed by Aguinaldo? You mean betrayed.

8. My neck of the woods? Again, you presume too much. ;)

9. Amsterdam? So you've been to Europe... so what? So you're a Singapore national now... so what? Why do you feel the need to bring things up like these?

10. Talangka mentality? For you, baby, I'll go all the way.

:rofl:

P.S. On the other hand, I do believe in giving credit where it's due. I don't have a problem with you posting classic English poetry here... in fact, I think it's a good idea and has some inherent value.

@crappypants, saan puwede mag apply sa club na yan?

EAT ALL YOU CAN CRABS ... :lol:



@drifter --- Si Clint din ata ang bida sa movie na High Plains Drifter.

@crappypants, saan puwede mag apply sa club na yan?

EAT ALL YOU CAN CRABS ... :lol:



@drifter --- Si Clint din ata ang bida sa movie na High Plains Drifter.

^^ Sa SSC ata CRAB buffet. :lol:

^^ Sa SSC ata CRAB buffet. :lol:

I've noticed also that a number of those who has a real deep desire to change the Philippine's mother tongue into Spanish more especifically are the Bisayan folks here, if not into english. I understand their dislike in tagalog but why not promote their own native language? Is this their lack of regional/national pride, culture shock and colonial mentality or is it simply a third world mentality? I don't get it???? We can critisize the tagalog people for being terrible in english language but somehow, I see the rest of the filipinos who has more national pride and expresses more their sense of nationalism. Again, i'm not generalizing everybody, It's just an observation I've picked up from the language thread...

i'm not one of them. in fact, i support teaching any language as an elective but not as compulsory subject. and i don't see any need of bringing back spanish as an official language. but i am for removing tagalog as a national language and retaining english as the official language.

I've noticed also that a number of those who has a real deep desire to change the Philippine's mother tongue into Spanish more especifically are the Bisayan folks here, if not into english. I understand their dislike in tagalog but why not promote their own native language? Is this their lack of regional/national pride, culture shock and colonial mentality or is it simply a third world mentality? I don't get it???? We can critisize the tagalog people for being terrible in english language but somehow, I see the rest of the filipinos who has more national pride and expresses more their sense of nationalism. Again, i'm not generalizing everybody, It's just an observation I've picked up from the language thread...

i'm not one of them. in fact, i support teaching any language as an elective but not as compulsory subject. and i don't see any need of bringing back spanish as an official language. but i am for removing tagalog as a national language and retaining english as the official language.

Federalism will undoubtedly lead to greater awareness of the local languages - but the process of it is fraught, and our country too is too fragile to be reverting to another form of government. Furthermore there is the issue of how to divide these "Federal Regions". But that's for another thread.

Here's the real issue. The greatest problem with removing Tagalog as the national language is that people associate it with nationalism. The national anthem is sung in Tagalog (despite having an English, Spanish, and other dialect versions), Filipino history is in Tagalog, etc. Not until English is established as a vibrant second language across the country (and not in the pretentious douche category) will it be a viable option to "demote" Tagalog. But by 20-25 years time (around two generations) the hold of Tagalog around other regions may have been stronger, and it would be too late to go back.

Some of the discussion here though I have lost track of. Seems all too irrelevant to the issue, but it has its roots somewhere back where I don't want to retrace. Something to do with culture methinks. I guess it's not too irrelevant when you think about it as culture and language are inclined to mix.

Federalism will undoubtedly lead to greater awareness of the local languages - but the process of it is fraught, and our country too is too fragile to be reverting to another form of government. Furthermore there is the issue of how to divide these "Federal Regions". But that's for another thread.

Here's the real issue. The greatest problem with removing Tagalog as the national language is that people associate it with nationalism. The national anthem is sung in Tagalog (despite having an English, Spanish, and other dialect versions), Filipino history is in Tagalog, etc. Not until English is established as a vibrant second language across the country (and not in the pretentious douche category) will it be a viable option to "demote" Tagalog. But by 20-25 years time (around two generations) the hold of Tagalog around other regions may have been stronger, and it would be too late to go back.

Some of the discussion here though I have lost track of. Seems all too irrelevant to the issue, but it has its roots somewhere back where I don't want to retrace. Something to do with culture methinks. I guess it's not too irrelevant when you think about it as culture and language are inclined to mix.

i'm not one of them. in fact, i support teaching any language as an elective but not as compulsory subject. and i don't see any need of bringing back spanish as an official language. but i am for removing tagalog as a national language and retaining english as the official language.

I thought the english language is already an official language and tagalog is the national language?

i'm not one of them. in fact, i support teaching any language as an elective but not as compulsory subject. and i don't see any need of bringing back spanish as an official language. but i am for removing tagalog as a national language and retaining english as the official language.

I thought the english language is already an official language and tagalog is the national language?

^^ exactly, that is why i use the word "retain" for english as "official". and remove for "tagalog" as "national" language.

^^ exactly, that is why i use the word "retain" for english as "official". and remove for "tagalog" as "national" language.

Well yeah, english has nothing that would identify to us as a filipino, I rather have filipino which means all the filipino regional languages equally. Filipinos speak english regardless if it is the official language or not. It will not make a big difference.

The only problem I might see in a federal type of government as far as languages is concerned is that, each regions have it's own regional subdialects and languages. I can see them all fighting as why let's say for instance, the federal Visayas region just to give an example again, would illonggos or hilagaynon's would not push for their languages as the national language instead of bisaya language?

I really like what eonyx and renell's messages in the other thread about the filipinos ruishing out of the country instead of moving in and the economic reasons as part of the biggest reason why we are starting to have less sense of nationalism and the root cause for regional conflicts and cliques...

Well yeah, english has nothing that would identify to us as a filipino, I rather have filipino which means all the filipino regional languages equally. Filipinos speak english regardless if it is the official language or not. It will not make a big difference.

The only problem I might see in a federal type of government as far as languages is concerned is that, each regions have it's own regional subdialects and languages. I can see them all fighting as why let's say for instance, the federal Visayas region just to give an example again, would illonggos or hilagaynon's would not push for their languages as the national language instead of bisaya language?

I really like what eonyx and renell's messages in the other thread about the filipinos ruishing out of the country instead of moving in and the economic reasons as part of the biggest reason why we are starting to have less sense of nationalism and the root cause for regional conflicts and cliques...

^^ No, the Bisayas would have no problem with...

Ilonggo as a language of commerce and karay-a as a literary (literatures) language for the west,

Sugbuanon for the central,

and

Leytenhon waray as a language of commerce with Samarnon waray as literary (literatures) language the East.

i believe Bisayas is the least problematic among all the other regions because the regions are divided along a common language (i.e. hiligaynon for the west, sugbuanon for the central, waray for the east) though we have some exceptions like akeanon and others that are similar yet different. same with the several samarnon waray dialect. but we are one even in these diversity because we can identify ourselves as part of the group. like a northern samarnon who may speak a different samarnon waray that is similar yet diffrent from eastern samarnon waray but despite the differences he would still identify himself as waray. and treat the samarnon waray as a relative.

there is actually more unity among the bisayans within each regions than between the north and the south of the philippines. well, of course there may be some rivalry though between bacolod and iloilo (political and economic in nature. e.g. negros as one region) but when it comes to language, i believe that won't be a problem.

^^ No, the Bisayas would have no problem with...

Ilonggo as a language of commerce and karay-a as a literary (literatures) language for the west,

Sugbuanon for the central,

and

Leytenhon waray as a language of commerce with Samarnon waray as literary (literatures) language the East.

i believe Bisayas is the least problematic among all the other regions because the regions are divided along a common language (i.e. hiligaynon for the west, sugbuanon for the central, waray for the east) though we have some exceptions like akeanon and others that are similar yet different. same with the several samarnon waray dialect. but we are one even in these diversity because we can identify ourselves as part of the group. like a northern samarnon who may speak a different samarnon waray that is similar yet diffrent from eastern samarnon waray but despite the differences he would still identify himself as waray. and treat the samarnon waray as a relative.

there is actually more unity among the bisayans within each regions than between the north and the south of the philippines. well, of course there may be some rivalry though between bacolod and iloilo (political and economic in nature. e.g. negros as one region) but when it comes to language, i believe that won't be a problem.

Just been catching up on the last 2 pages.

What great discourse! I am very impressed if I may say so.

Just been catching up on the last 2 pages.

What great discourse! I am very impressed if I may say so.

I didn't know crabs weave webs. Well, one learns something new everyday. :)



am I glad Emilio Aguinaldo killed your hero. :lol:



This wasn't exactly one of the shining moments in Philippine history. I don't know how anyone could be gleeful about it.

I didn't know crabs weave webs. Well, one learns something new everyday. :)



am I glad Emilio Aguinaldo killed your hero. :lol:



This wasn't exactly one of the shining moments in Philippine history. I don't know how anyone could be gleeful about it.

Not really, if you speak tagalog and you speak your native regional dialect, tagalog is only your secondary language. Tagalog is being taught in schools all over the philippines so that from Jolo to Batanes, we can communicate in one language, otherwise, it would of been mandated by the Philippine government that no other language be spoken at home and our families except Tagalog, but then there has been no law against speaking your own native tongue at home. The late Ferdiand Marcos never dropped his Ilocano language and has supported his native town in Ilocos Sur to support some progress in that region but he never told his people to drop ilocano and speak tagalog only in that region. Picking up the english language over any of our native languages just all tell us that our languages are inferior as well. Now we use tagalog to communicate to one another just as how we would communicate english to any foreigners.

No one is suggesting to abolish the english language in the Philippine educational system, it is there to stay. What we are really discussing in this thread is about how we can change the decline in the english languge skills , I don't know why most everybody here is so focused on the language when THE FILIPINO STUDENTS ARE LAGGING BEHIND IN MATHEMATICS AS WELL, which only means that the educational system in the Philippines is declining... If this is happening, even if we speak english fluently, if our professionals would be behind other professional counter parts all over the world, we would lose the ability to be one of the most prefered foreign trained professional abroad. We are seing this now with the people from India, Information technology wise, they are racing forward and ahead of us in this area. Now, in health field, there are chinese and taiwanese nowadays that are breaking into the foreign market. So what is really turning prospective employers and investors from the Philippines? This is where we need to focus more on, our economy, educational system and competetive professionals who can cater for foreign investors that is beyond what other neigboring countries can offer. And lastly the stability on our polical system.

Imperial Manila is still the main culprit why the intelligence of our youth is diminishing. It has been promoting Actors and Actresses too much in the media. There are hardly any shows that encourage people to think. Most of the TV shows are always about actors and actresses. We worship celebrities too much and our kids often fail to have their brains exercised. What do you get from celebrity/movie gossip and dance shows? NOTHING... absolutely NOTHING!!! The government ought to tax the advertisers and sponsors of these shows for the damage it is inflicting on our youth.

Not really, if you speak tagalog and you speak your native regional dialect, tagalog is only your secondary language. Tagalog is being taught in schools all over the philippines so that from Jolo to Batanes, we can communicate in one language, otherwise, it would of been mandated by the Philippine government that no other language be spoken at home and our families except Tagalog, but then there has been no law against speaking your own native tongue at home. The late Ferdiand Marcos never dropped his Ilocano language and has supported his native town in Ilocos Sur to support some progress in that region but he never told his people to drop ilocano and speak tagalog only in that region. Picking up the english language over any of our native languages just all tell us that our languages are inferior as well. Now we use tagalog to communicate to one another just as how we would communicate english to any foreigners.

No one is suggesting to abolish the english language in the Philippine educational system, it is there to stay. What we are really discussing in this thread is about how we can change the decline in the english languge skills , I don't know why most everybody here is so focused on the language when THE FILIPINO STUDENTS ARE LAGGING BEHIND IN MATHEMATICS AS WELL, which only means that the educational system in the Philippines is declining... If this is happening, even if we speak english fluently, if our professionals would be behind other professional counter parts all over the world, we would lose the ability to be one of the most prefered foreign trained professional abroad. We are seing this now with the people from India, Information technology wise, they are racing forward and ahead of us in this area. Now, in health field, there are chinese and taiwanese nowadays that are breaking into the foreign market. So what is really turning prospective employers and investors from the Philippines? This is where we need to focus more on, our economy, educational system and competetive professionals who can cater for foreign investors that is beyond what other neigboring countries can offer. And lastly the stability on our polical system.

Imperial Manila is still the main culprit why the intelligence of our youth is diminishing. It has been promoting Actors and Actresses too much in the media. There are hardly any shows that encourage people to think. Most of the TV shows are always about actors and actresses. We worship celebrities too much and our kids often fail to have their brains exercised. What do you get from celebrity/movie gossip and dance shows? NOTHING... absolutely NOTHING!!! The government ought to tax the advertisers and sponsors of these shows for the damage it is inflicting on our youth.

Agree. Filipino voters need to be taught how to vote intelligently. Come 2010, I doubt it there will be reforms in political front. :ohno:

I am supportive of using English as main or medium of instruction in all levels and for the dialect, we should not impose Tagalog in other parts of the country. I've travelled to Visayas and Mindandao and most of the people there speak "Bisaya or Cebuano based language", Ilonggo, Waray, but a few of them speak Tagalog. In Luzon, outside Southern Tagalog, Nueva Ecija, Bataan and some parts of Tarlac, few people use Tagalog as their medium.

Earlier this year, I went to the burial of a family friend in a very rural town in Cauayan. I was surprised to hear the priest speak in English. Most of the testimonials were also spoken in English and some in Ilonggo. One spoke in Tagalog and it was very obvious that most people could not understand him because people used his time to go look for the restroom. English is still better understood even in rural areas in the Visayas since the English Bible is more accessible than the Ilonggo or Tagalog one.

Agree. Filipino voters need to be taught how to vote intelligently. Come 2010, I doubt it there will be reforms in political front. :ohno:

I am supportive of using English as main or medium of instruction in all levels and for the dialect, we should not impose Tagalog in other parts of the country. I've travelled to Visayas and Mindandao and most of the people there speak "Bisaya or Cebuano based language", Ilonggo, Waray, but a few of them speak Tagalog. In Luzon, outside Southern Tagalog, Nueva Ecija, Bataan and some parts of Tarlac, few people use Tagalog as their medium.

Earlier this year, I went to the burial of a family friend in a very rural town in Cauayan. I was surprised to hear the priest speak in English. Most of the testimonials were also spoken in English and some in Ilonggo. One spoke in Tagalog and it was very obvious that most people could not understand him because people used his time to go look for the restroom. English is still better understood even in rural areas in the Visayas since the English Bible is more accessible than the Ilonggo or Tagalog one.

Imperial Manila is still the main culprit why the intelligence of our youth is diminishing. It has been promoting Actors and Actresses too much in the media. There are hardly any shows that encourage people to think. Most of the TV shows are always about actors and actresses. We worship celebrities too much and our kids often fail to have their brains exercised. What do you get from celebrity/movie gossip and dance shows? NOTHING... absolutely NOTHING!!! The government ought to tax the advertisers and sponsors of these shows for the damage it is inflicting on our youth.


The youths also follows what they see in western shows so go figure. As far as the diminishing intelligence is concerned. It's mostly poverty and the colonial mentality that really takes us there, why? we are so focused in going to school just to get hired overseas especially in North America, even our school teachers leave the Philippines for a better pay in the US. Even well to do people who are already making it good in the Philippines can't help but feel the envy on how it feels like to live in the US. Alot of people from the south are no different that people in Manila. And btw, the media people are mostly from outside Manila as well, Edu Mansano, Jon Estrada , is it Vina Morales??? Kuk Ledesma??? I mentioned these due to the pact that some of you are talking like Imperial Manila is only synonymous to tagalog, but the Imperial Manila isn't all tagalog, it's pretty much a melting pot for all people all over the Philippines so the same people from the media that is coming from Visayas and Mindanao are contributing to what is going on all over the Philippines through media..

Corruption isn't only confined in imperialist Manila alone, it goes all over the Philippines, even in Cebu or Davao there are corruption happening, so, let's stop pointing fingers because of "hate" on certain region, especially the bisayas towards the tagalog. Because the rest of the Philippines is no angel at all, they all share the same traits as the tagalistas inside out, this is the biggest problem with the filipinos, we rather embrace something foreign, to me I see that as a typical third world mentality. If SOME of the bisayas so love their own language and region why do you prefer english rather than your own? For me, there is nothing wrong if we are good english speakers but copying and starting to own something that is not our own shows how much we hate what we are and who we are...

Imperial Manila is still the main culprit why the intelligence of our youth is diminishing. It has been promoting Actors and Actresses too much in the media. There are hardly any shows that encourage people to think. Most of the TV shows are always about actors and actresses. We worship celebrities too much and our kids often fail to have their brains exercised. What do you get from celebrity/movie gossip and dance shows? NOTHING... absolutely NOTHING!!! The government ought to tax the advertisers and sponsors of these shows for the damage it is inflicting on our youth.


The youths also follows what they see in western shows so go figure. As far as the diminishing intelligence is concerned. It's mostly poverty and the colonial mentality that really takes us there, why? we are so focused in going to school just to get hired overseas especially in North America, even our school teachers leave the Philippines for a better pay in the US. Even well to do people who are already making it good in the Philippines can't help but feel the envy on how it feels like to live in the US. Alot of people from the south are no different that people in Manila. And btw, the media people are mostly from outside Manila as well, Edu Mansano, Jon Estrada , is it Vina Morales??? Kuk Ledesma??? I mentioned these due to the pact that some of you are talking like Imperial Manila is only synonymous to tagalog, but the Imperial Manila isn't all tagalog, it's pretty much a melting pot for all people all over the Philippines so the same people from the media that is coming from Visayas and Mindanao are contributing to what is going on all over the Philippines through media..

Corruption isn't only confined in imperialist Manila alone, it goes all over the Philippines, even in Cebu or Davao there are corruption happening, so, let's stop pointing fingers because of "hate" on certain region, especially the bisayas towards the tagalog. Because the rest of the Philippines is no angel at all, they all share the same traits as the tagalistas inside out, this is the biggest problem with the filipinos, we rather embrace something foreign, to me I see that as a typical third world mentality. If SOME of the bisayas so love their own language and region why do you prefer english rather than your own? For me, there is nothing wrong if we are good english speakers but copying and starting to own something that is not our own shows how much we hate what we are and who we are...

^^ that is why there need to be change in the system that breeds that mentality because everything starts in imperial manila. the system is very much PRO-manila and PRO-tagalog while the rest are unfairly demoted into 2nd class citizens of this country especially when we speak of languages, literature and history subjects in school.

Tagalog is even peddled as nationalism in our schools. as if one lose their nationalism and patriotism if one doesn't adopt tagalog as their language and embrace its culture.

we can't even sing our national anthem in our own language because we are required by law to sing it only in tagalog.

that is why i believe that federalism is the key. we need federalism to strengthen the regions.

^^ that is why there need to be change in the system that breeds that mentality because everything starts in imperial manila. the system is very much PRO-manila and PRO-tagalog while the rest are unfairly demoted into 2nd class citizens of this country especially when we speak of languages, literature and history subjects in school.

Tagalog is even peddled as nationalism in our schools. as if one lose their nationalism and patriotism if one doesn't adopt tagalog as their language and embrace its culture.

we can't even sing our national anthem in our own language because we are required by law to sing it only in tagalog.

that is why i believe that federalism is the key. we need federalism to strengthen the regions.

Imperial Manila goes beyond just the language aspect, it also encompass the economy, politics and the leadership. As long as we have an opinion towards one another or hate by the bisayan towards the tagalogs, it doesn't matter what national language we speak, we would still clash, the only difference is that we would be arguing/discussing/debating in english just like what we are doing here right now..

There is a possibility that federalism might be the key but I think we are taking the idea of a federal government at a different context. Manila would still be the capital, we would still have one president or prime minister if they tried to change it in a parliamentary system of governance but Manila would still be the center and the seat of primary leadership and as long as the other regions have a very bad opinion about the Manila, there would not be any sense of nationalism as Manila would still be under attack of critism and resentments. The only thing I would see that would benefit all other region is that they would be able to taste a bigger amount of revenue in their region and perhaps a bit more freedom to exercise whatever regionalistic practices they wanted to practice such as language, particularly the Islamic regions, but still ,towards the end, everything has to be decided first in Manila together with all other regions or representative of that region. The only really possible way to have peace and enjoy unity amongst regions is to actually secede as an independent country or nation.

Imperial Manila goes beyond just the language aspect, it also encompass the economy, politics and the leadership. As long as we have an opinion towards one another or hate by the bisayan towards the tagalogs, it doesn't matter what national language we speak, we would still clash, the only difference is that we would be arguing/discussing/debating in english just like what we are doing here right now..

There is a possibility that federalism might be the key but I think we are taking the idea of a federal government at a different context. Manila would still be the capital, we would still have one president or prime minister if they tried to change it in a parliamentary system of governance but Manila would still be the center and the seat of primary leadership and as long as the other regions have a very bad opinion about the Manila, there would not be any sense of nationalism as Manila would still be under attack of critism and resentments. The only thing I would see that would benefit all other region is that they would be able to taste a bigger amount of revenue in their region and perhaps a bit more freedom to exercise whatever regionalistic practices they wanted to practice such as language, particularly the Islamic regions, but still ,towards the end, everything has to be decided first in Manila together with all other regions or representative of that region. The only really possible way to have peace and enjoy unity amongst regions is to actually secede as an independent country or nation.

^^ it encompasses all aspect of our lives.

1st: imperial manila (the government in manila, dominated by a bureaucracy based in manila and are PRO-manila and luzon coz that's where they live.) controls much of the wealth and the distribution of wealth of this country.

2nd: the language: tagalog is peddled as nationalism and tagalog language is taught in schools nationwide as compulsory subject.

3rd: textbooks and philippne educational system are tagalog-centric.

These are but few of the reasons why manila is called "imperial" and the tagalog as imperialistic. specially when you see and hear the tagalogs promoting their language as the more superior language, better than the rest of the philippine languages and it's culture far more superior than the barbaric south. in fact that's what we see in textbooks and sites in the internet. we even saw an article justifying tagalog as a national language because of its beauty and so on and so forth. but we take that as an insult to the non-tagalog heritage that we too inherited from our non-tagalog ancestors. and so tagalog took away that equality between all the ethnic groups in the philippines. it had lifted itself up as a more superior culture and language and declared it as something better than the rest. then use it to measure the patriotism and nationalism of all the citizens of the philippines.

^^ it encompasses all aspect of our lives.

1st: imperial manila (the government in manila, dominated by a bureaucracy based in manila and are PRO-manila and luzon coz that's where they live.) controls much of the wealth and the distribution of wealth of this country.

2nd: the language: tagalog is peddled as nationalism and tagalog language is taught in schools nationwide as compulsory subject.

3rd: textbooks and philippne educational system are tagalog-centric.

These are but few of the reasons why manila is called "imperial" and the tagalog as imperialistic. specially when you see and hear the tagalogs promoting their language as the more superior language, better than the rest of the philippine languages and it's culture far more superior than the barbaric south. in fact that's what we see in textbooks and sites in the internet. we even saw an article justifying tagalog as a national language because of its beauty and so on and so forth. but we take that as an insult to the non-tagalog heritage that we too inherited from our non-tagalog ancestors. and so tagalog took away that equality between all the ethnic groups in the philippines. it had lifted itself up as a more superior culture and language and declared it as something better than the rest. then use it to measure the patriotism and nationalism of all the citizens of the philippines.

Couldn't it be just in you allst mind because of being too opinionated? Surely all countries in the world has it's own national language and a language for communication of all its people separate from the language spoken by the whole world that serve as identity of a nation just that you guys take it negatively? With that kind of thinking , I think it might as well be that you guys can seperate and create your own nation where the language you would chose is english or spanish... I don't hear any other region giving a real big fuzz about the language other than the bisayan region ... it's always the bisaya making a big noise out of it. In SSC alone, many of the tagalog welcomed the idea of having bisaya as the national language but you guys rather have english or spanish. It does tell us something.... I mean, no offense but that's how it seems to be happening in this thread alone...

Couldn't it be just in you allst mind because of being too opinionated? Surely all countries in the world has it's own national language and a language for communication of all its people separate from the language spoken by the whole world that serve as identity of a nation just that you guys take it negatively? With that kind of thinking , I think it might as well be that you guys can seperate and create your own nation where the language you would chose is english or spanish... I don't hear any other region giving a real big fuzz about the language other than the bisayan region ... it's always the bisaya making a big noise out of it. In SSC alone, many of the tagalog welcomed the idea of having bisaya as the national language but you guys rather have english or spanish. It does tell us something.... I mean, no offense but that's how it seems to be happening in this thread alone...

Exactly! I don't see the point why you guys are arguing whether this language should be the national language and that language should not be blah blah. It's in the Constitution: Filipino is the National Language. Period. It will stay that way until the whole nation decides to have something else. So, live with it! Better yet, learn the language. I'm Ilocano, but I know how to speak Filipino (which is based on Tagalog). Ewan ko bakit ang laking problema sa ilan. Hindi naman mahirap pag-aralan ang Tagalog.

Exactly! I don't see the point why you guys are arguing whether this language should be the national language and that language should not be blah blah. It's in the Constitution: Filipino is the National Language. Period. It will stay that way until the whole nation decides to have something else. So, live with it! Better yet, learn the language. I'm Ilocano, but I know how to speak Filipino (which is based on Tagalog). Ewan ko bakit ang laking problema sa ilan. Hindi naman mahirap pag-aralan ang Tagalog.

^^ Very good point, tyronne. The Constitution can be changed, but only if everyone (or at least a majority) agrees to do so.

A similar issue exists with the Philippine National Anthem which can only be sung in the national language (i.e. Filipino) as prescribed by Republic Act No. 8491. This can also be changed/repealed. It should be noted, however, that this act was passed by Congress which included representatives from various regional districts.

^^ Very good point, tyronne. The Constitution can be changed, but only if everyone (or at least a majority) agrees to do so.

A similar issue exists with the Philippine National Anthem which can only be sung in the national language (i.e. Filipino) as prescribed by Republic Act No. 8491. This can also be changed/repealed. It should be noted, however, that this act was passed by Congress which included representatives from various regional districts.

Here it is... as simple as what tyronne mentioned.


THE 1987 CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES (http://www.gov.ph/aboutphil/a14.asp)


Article 14:
Education, Science and Technology, Arts, Culture, and Sports


Language


SEC. 6.
The national language of the Philippines is Filipino. As it evolves, it shall be further developed and enriched on the basis of existing Philippine and other languages.
Subject to provisions of law and as the Congress may deem appropriate, the Government shall take steps to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino as a medium of official communication and as language of instruction in the educational system.

SEC. 7.
For purposes of communication and instruction, the official languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided by law, English.
The regional languages are the auxiliary official languages in the regions and shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.
Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis.

SEC. 8.
This Constitution shall be promulgated in Filipino and English and shall be translated into major regional languages, Arabic, and Spanish.

SEC. 9.
The Congress shall establish a national language commission composed of representatives of various regions and disciplines which shall undertake, coordinate, and promote researches for the development, propagation, and preservation of Filipino and other languages.

Here it is... as simple as what tyronne mentioned.


THE 1987 CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES (http://www.gov.ph/aboutphil/a14.asp)


Article 14:
Education, Science and Technology, Arts, Culture, and Sports


Language


SEC. 6.
The national language of the Philippines is Filipino. As it evolves, it shall be further developed and enriched on the basis of existing Philippine and other languages.
Subject to provisions of law and as the Congress may deem appropriate, the Government shall take steps to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino as a medium of official communication and as language of instruction in the educational system.

SEC. 7.
For purposes of communication and instruction, the official languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided by law, English.
The regional languages are the auxiliary official languages in the regions and shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.
Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis.

SEC. 8.
This Constitution shall be promulgated in Filipino and English and shall be translated into major regional languages, Arabic, and Spanish.

SEC. 9.
The Congress shall establish a national language commission composed of representatives of various regions and disciplines which shall undertake, coordinate, and promote researches for the development, propagation, and preservation of Filipino and other languages.

Yeah, this is what I have been saying all along. Even if we changed the national language to english or spanish, then what? The attitude of the people would still be the same, some bisayans would be opinionated and would critisize whatever is tagalog for their love to a more foreign languge they are infatuated on but with this attitude, will there be a real unity if we someone still carry an opinion towards what they call Imperialist Manila? I think it will not end there and it will not bring progress to our country because we will be just changing our mask latin or english speaker but deep inside we never changed... We would still be the same poor filipinos who would be seeking jobs overseas and the same filipinos who would be working in a less stable job like call centers instead of creating work internally by building our own business empire we can share the world.. I am not saying call centers are a bad idea but it really doesn't get us anywhere with those investments because one way or another this call center ideas would probably not stay there forever just as how it didn't really stay very long in the US soil as these corporations would be looking for all possible means to make things simplier and cheaper so they wouldn't have to pay alot of employees high salaries and employeees' benefits...

Thanks for providing that article tsinoy.....

Yeah, this is what I have been saying all along. Even if we changed the national language to english or spanish, then what? The attitude of the people would still be the same, some bisayans would be opinionated and would critisize whatever is tagalog for their love to a more foreign languge they are infatuated on but with this attitude, will there be a real unity if we someone still carry an opinion towards what they call Imperialist Manila? I think it will not end there and it will not bring progress to our country because we will be just changing our mask latin or english speaker but deep inside we never changed... We would still be the same poor filipinos who would be seeking jobs overseas and the same filipinos who would be working in a less stable job like call centers instead of creating work internally by building our own business empire we can share the world.. I am not saying call centers are a bad idea but it really doesn't get us anywhere with those investments because one way or another this call center ideas would probably not stay there forever just as how it didn't really stay very long in the US soil as these corporations would be looking for all possible means to make things simplier and cheaper so they wouldn't have to pay alot of employees high salaries and employeees' benefits...

Thanks for providing that article tsinoy.....

Couldn't it be just in you allst mind because of being too opinionated? Surely all countries in the world has it's own national language and a language for communication of all its people separate from the language spoken by the whole world that serve as identity of a nation just that you guys take it negatively? With that kind of thinking , I think it might as well be that you guys can seperate and create your own nation where the language you would chose is english or spanish... I don't hear any other region giving a real big fuzz about the language other than the bisayan region ... it's always the bisaya making a big noise out of it. In SSC alone, many of the tagalog welcomed the idea of having bisaya as the national language but you guys rather have english or spanish. It does tell us something.... I mean, no offense but that's how it seems to be happening in this thread alone...

there was nothing wrong with our kind of thinking. that is the reality and FYI, mindanao is also complaining but their complain is more economic in nature. while those in the bisayas do not only complain about the economic aspect but also the language. why? one reason would be because of the inday and dodong "joke" in manila especially those seen on tv and in the movies. we can't blame the bisayas for being sensitive. you probably don't know much about the philippines that is why it's easy for you to just dismiss any of these sentiments.

and it's happening in this thread alone because we are talking about english as the language of the philippines. of course when we want to talk about the economy. we would go to the economy thread. :)

there are many countries that dont have one national language. some don't even call their language as national language instead they call it "official" languages which means more than 1.

by the way, wala akong galit sa mga tagalog. yung sa akin lang. para matapos na ang bangayan, mas mabuti pa level the field upang lahat ay maging pantay. at sangayon naman ako sa suggestion ni nabartek at ng iba pang forumer dito na bigyan nalang ng kalayaan ang bawat region na maglagay ng sarili nilang official language. pero kung wala na talaga tayong magagawa upang panatilihing buo ang pilipinas sa ganitong paraan. mas mabuti na rin talaga na magbuo na ang bisayas ng KGB o FBI.

Couldn't it be just in you allst mind because of being too opinionated? Surely all countries in the world has it's own national language and a language for communication of all its people separate from the language spoken by the whole world that serve as identity of a nation just that you guys take it negatively? With that kind of thinking , I think it might as well be that you guys can seperate and create your own nation where the language you would chose is english or spanish... I don't hear any other region giving a real big fuzz about the language other than the bisayan region ... it's always the bisaya making a big noise out of it. In SSC alone, many of the tagalog welcomed the idea of having bisaya as the national language but you guys rather have english or spanish. It does tell us something.... I mean, no offense but that's how it seems to be happening in this thread alone...

there was nothing wrong with our kind of thinking. that is the reality and FYI, mindanao is also complaining but their complain is more economic in nature. while those in the bisayas do not only complain about the economic aspect but also the language. why? one reason would be because of the inday and dodong "joke" in manila especially those seen on tv and in the movies. we can't blame the bisayas for being sensitive. you probably don't know much about the philippines that is why it's easy for you to just dismiss any of these sentiments.

and it's happening in this thread alone because we are talking about english as the language of the philippines. of course when we want to talk about the economy. we would go to the economy thread. :)

there are many countries that dont have one national language. some don't even call their language as national language instead they call it "official" languages which means more than 1.

by the way, wala akong galit sa mga tagalog. yung sa akin lang. para matapos na ang bangayan, mas mabuti pa level the field upang lahat ay maging pantay. at sangayon naman ako sa suggestion ni nabartek at ng iba pang forumer dito na bigyan nalang ng kalayaan ang bawat region na maglagay ng sarili nilang official language. pero kung wala na talaga tayong magagawa upang panatilihing buo ang pilipinas sa ganitong paraan. mas mabuti na rin talaga na magbuo na ang bisayas ng KGB o FBI.

Here it is... as simple as what tyronne mentioned.


THE 1987 CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES (http://www.gov.ph/aboutphil/a14.asp)


Article 14:
Education, Science and Technology, Arts, Culture, and Sports


Language


SEC. 6.
The national language of the Philippines is Filipino. As it evolves, it shall be further developed and enriched on the basis of existing Philippine and other languages.
Subject to provisions of law and as the Congress may deem appropriate, the Government shall take steps to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino as a medium of official communication and as language of instruction in the educational system.

SEC. 7.
For purposes of communication and instruction, the official languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided by law, English.
The regional languages are the auxiliary official languages in the regions and shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.
Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis.

SEC. 8.
This Constitution shall be promulgated in Filipino and English and shall be translated into major regional languages, Arabic, and Spanish.

SEC. 9.
The Congress shall establish a national language commission composed of representatives of various regions and disciplines which shall undertake, coordinate, and promote researches for the development, propagation, and preservation of Filipino and other languages.

Note how the constitution is written in English ;)

Here it is... as simple as what tyronne mentioned.


THE 1987 CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES (http://www.gov.ph/aboutphil/a14.asp)


Article 14:
Education, Science and Technology, Arts, Culture, and Sports


Language


SEC. 6.
The national language of the Philippines is Filipino. As it evolves, it shall be further developed and enriched on the basis of existing Philippine and other languages.
Subject to provisions of law and as the Congress may deem appropriate, the Government shall take steps to initiate and sustain the use of Filipino as a medium of official communication and as language of instruction in the educational system.

SEC. 7.
For purposes of communication and instruction, the official languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided by law, English.
The regional languages are the auxiliary official languages in the regions and shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.
Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis.

SEC. 8.
This Constitution shall be promulgated in Filipino and English and shall be translated into major regional languages, Arabic, and Spanish.

SEC. 9.
The Congress shall establish a national language commission composed of representatives of various regions and disciplines which shall undertake, coordinate, and promote researches for the development, propagation, and preservation of Filipino and other languages.

Note how the constitution is written in English ;)

^^ yeah, how ironic. :) but i think they also made one in tagalog.

^^ yeah, how ironic. :) but i think they also made one in tagalog.

^^Yup, the constitution is also written in Filipino.

^^Yup, the constitution is also written in Filipino.

Well bukid, Mindanao is a little bit more different than just the language, I think they are not complaining about the language per se but for them to practice the same law Islam mandated them because the Philippines is a predominantly Christian Catholic nation.

About the the media or television, I am almost possitive that those who also use dodong and anything similar or connected to it are mostly bisayan themselves not just the tagalogs....

Here in SSC alone, many tagalogs were welcoming the idea of bisaya in replacement of tagalog but half of you who were pushing for spanish or english as a national language wouldn't accept it, it's either english or spanish instead of being bisaya language alone.. What does that tell us all? To me and this is just my observation and not just an opinion, the bisayans would rather be englishized or hispanicized instead of being ourselves. And I see that as if we are not happy about ourselves maybe subsconsciously, that's the reason why we want to dress like the westerners, follow their way of life and imitate whatever latest fad they have to the point that we will dress like them, dye our hair like them and attempt to talk like them in an english language and even perfect the english language more than an english native speakers would give emphasis on their own language...

Well bukid, Mindanao is a little bit more different than just the language, I think they are not complaining about the language per se but for them to practice the same law Islam mandated them because the Philippines is a predominantly Christian Catholic nation.

About the the media or television, I am almost possitive that those who also use dodong and anything similar or connected to it are mostly bisayan themselves not just the tagalogs....

Here in SSC alone, many tagalogs were welcoming the idea of bisaya in replacement of tagalog but half of you who were pushing for spanish or english as a national language wouldn't accept it, it's either english or spanish instead of being bisaya language alone.. What does that tell us all? To me and this is just my observation and not just an opinion, the bisayans would rather be englishized or hispanicized instead of being ourselves. And I see that as if we are not happy about ourselves maybe subsconsciously, that's the reason why we want to dress like the westerners, follow their way of life and imitate whatever latest fad they have to the point that we will dress like them, dye our hair like them and attempt to talk like them in an english language and even perfect the english language more than an english native speakers would give emphasis on their own language...

Exactly! I don't see the point why you guys are arguing whether this language should be the national language and that language should not be blah blah. It's in the Constitution: Filipino is the National Language. Period. It will stay that way until the whole nation decides to have something else. So, live with it!

Then I deny don't recognize it.

Better yet, learn the language. I'm Ilocano, but I know how to speak Filipino (which is based on Tagalog). Ewan ko bakit ang laking problema sa ilan. Hindi naman mahirap pag-aralan ang Tagalog.

Not all people can study Tagalog easily (In fact, they considered as a burden). The problem is not learning Tagalog, it's recognition of other languages.

Exactly! I don't see the point why you guys are arguing whether this language should be the national language and that language should not be blah blah. It's in the Constitution: Filipino is the National Language. Period. It will stay that way until the whole nation decides to have something else. So, live with it!

Then I deny don't recognize it.

Better yet, learn the language. I'm Ilocano, but I know how to speak Filipino (which is based on Tagalog). Ewan ko bakit ang laking problema sa ilan. Hindi naman mahirap pag-aralan ang Tagalog.

Not all people can study Tagalog easily (In fact, they considered as a burden). The problem is not learning Tagalog, it's recognition of other languages.

Note how the constitution is written in English ;)

But you fail to notice what is written in section number 8 and 9

Note how the constitution is written in English ;)

But you fail to notice what is written in section number 8 and 9

Then I deny it.



Not all people can study Tagalog easily (In fact, they considered as a burden). The problem is not learning Tagalog, it's recognition of other languages.

Not everybody has skill in learning languages more than what they speak at home and english is not an exception to it. If one can't learn a certain language is because they are consciously refusing to learn it for various different reasons, 1 can be hate , 2 can be colonial mentality and 3 can be a person's overly opinionated attitude as one of the few reasons why it the case maybe...

Then I deny it.



Not all people can study Tagalog easily (In fact, they considered as a burden). The problem is not learning Tagalog, it's recognition of other languages.

Not everybody has skill in learning languages more than what they speak at home and english is not an exception to it. If one can't learn a certain language is because they are consciously refusing to learn it for various different reasons, 1 can be hate , 2 can be colonial mentality and 3 can be a person's overly opinionated attitude as one of the few reasons why it the case maybe...

Imperial Manila is still the main culprit why the intelligence of our youth is diminishing. It has been promoting Actors and Actresses too much in the media. There are hardly any shows that encourage people to think. Most of the TV shows are always about actors and actresses. We worship celebrities too much and our kids often fail to have their brains exercised. What do you get from celebrity/movie gossip and dance shows? NOTHING... absolutely NOTHING!!! The government ought to tax the advertisers and sponsors of these shows for the damage it is inflicting on our youth.


Well, the Philippines is a free-market economy so it's not as easy as just blaming it all on Manila and the 'show biz' folks. It's free-market forces at work.

If anything, from what I have seen of RP newscasts shown in the States, actually the current crop of local 'artistas' are a lot more educated than the crop from the 50's, 60's and the 70s. It appears that those who are 2nd or 3rd generation artistas now, at least were sent to fairly good schools by their parents and were certainly induced to at least finish something. Altho they still speak Taglish -- and of course that is the idiom of their profession -- I notice that many of them can complete English sentences w/ confidence and if faced by say, a pure English-spkeaing interviewer, will try to reciprocate qutie competently. Compare that to that old has-been, Erap, who will not just shut up and fade away. The inebriate is still stuttering and can barely complete a half-complete English sentence.

My point is, the present generation of 'artistas' might not be bad role models because it seems a good number of the successful ones have completed more studies than their previous generation -- and I hope the youth of the country can at least emulate that.

Imperial Manila is still the main culprit why the intelligence of our youth is diminishing. It has been promoting Actors and Actresses too much in the media. There are hardly any shows that encourage people to think. Most of the TV shows are always about actors and actresses. We worship celebrities too much and our kids often fail to have their brains exercised. What do you get from celebrity/movie gossip and dance shows? NOTHING... absolutely NOTHING!!! The government ought to tax the advertisers and sponsors of these shows for the damage it is inflicting on our youth.


Well, the Philippines is a free-market economy so it's not as easy as just blaming it all on Manila and the 'show biz' folks. It's free-market forces at work.

If anything, from what I have seen of RP newscasts shown in the States, actually the current crop of local 'artistas' are a lot more educated than the crop from the 50's, 60's and the 70s. It appears that those who are 2nd or 3rd generation artistas now, at least were sent to fairly good schools by their parents and were certainly induced to at least finish something. Altho they still speak Taglish -- and of course that is the idiom of their profession -- I notice that many of them can complete English sentences w/ confidence and if faced by say, a pure English-spkeaing interviewer, will try to reciprocate qutie competently. Compare that to that old has-been, Erap, who will not just shut up and fade away. The inebriate is still stuttering and can barely complete a half-complete English sentence.

My point is, the present generation of 'artistas' might not be bad role models because it seems a good number of the successful ones have completed more studies than their previous generation -- and I hope the youth of the country can at least emulate that.

Well bukid, Mindanao is a little bit more different than just the language, I think they are not complaining about the language per se but for them to practice the same law Islam mandated them because the Philippines is a predominantly Christian Catholic nation.

About the the media or television, I am almost possitive that those who also use dodong and anything similar or connected to it are mostly bisayan themselves not just the tagalogs....

Here in SSC alone, many tagalogs were welcoming the idea of bisaya in replacement of tagalog but half of you who were pushing for spanish or english as a national language wouldn't accept it, it's either english or spanish instead of being bisaya language alone.. What does that tell us all? To me and this is just my observation and not just an opinion, the bisayans would rather be englishized or hispanicized instead of being ourselves. And I see that as if we are not happy about ourselves maybe subsconsciously, that's the reason why we want to dress like the westerners, follow their way of life and imitate whatever latest fad they have to the point that we will dress like them, dye our hair like them and attempt to talk like them in an english language and even perfect the english language more than an english native speakers would give emphasis on their own language...

well, i have no problem with making native languages as "official" language of each region. but if we are to insist on a "national" language then let's just have something neutral. fair to all. or better just removed the title "national" and just call it an "official" language or maybe a language of administration to avoid equating it with "nationalism" and "patriotism". it's that simple. just remove the title of "national" and all will be well. anyway its just a title but it had brought us so many misunderstanding because those promoting tagalog had use the title to justify the promotion of tagalog as a measurement of one's "nationalism" and patriotism" and that's exactly the sentiment of nabartek and she's from luzon.

Well bukid, Mindanao is a little bit more different than just the language, I think they are not complaining about the language per se but for them to practice the same law Islam mandated them because the Philippines is a predominantly Christian Catholic nation.

About the the media or television, I am almost possitive that those who also use dodong and anything similar or connected to it are mostly bisayan themselves not just the tagalogs....

Here in SSC alone, many tagalogs were welcoming the idea of bisaya in replacement of tagalog but half of you who were pushing for spanish or english as a national language wouldn't accept it, it's either english or spanish instead of being bisaya language alone.. What does that tell us all? To me and this is just my observation and not just an opinion, the bisayans would rather be englishized or hispanicized instead of being ourselves. And I see that as if we are not happy about ourselves maybe subsconsciously, that's the reason why we want to dress like the westerners, follow their way of life and imitate whatever latest fad they have to the point that we will dress like them, dye our hair like them and attempt to talk like them in an english language and even perfect the english language more than an english native speakers would give emphasis on their own language...

well, i have no problem with making native languages as "official" language of each region. but if we are to insist on a "national" language then let's just have something neutral. fair to all. or better just removed the title "national" and just call it an "official" language or maybe a language of administration to avoid equating it with "nationalism" and "patriotism". it's that simple. just remove the title of "national" and all will be well. anyway its just a title but it had brought us so many misunderstanding because those promoting tagalog had use the title to justify the promotion of tagalog as a measurement of one's "nationalism" and patriotism" and that's exactly the sentiment of nabartek and she's from luzon.

Here it is... as simple as what tyronne mentioned.


THE 1987 CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES (http://www.gov.ph/aboutphil/a14.asp)

[FONT="Georgia"]
Article 14:
Education, Science and Technology, Arts, Culture, and Sports


Language

SEC. 7.
For purposes of communication and instruction, the official languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided by law, English.
The regional languages are the auxiliary official languages in the regions and shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.
Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis.

SEC. 8.
This Constitution shall be promulgated in Filipino and English and shall be translated into major regional languages, Arabic, and Spanish.

I don't exactly see the reason why Arabic should be here.

Here it is... as simple as what tyronne mentioned.


THE 1987 CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES (http://www.gov.ph/aboutphil/a14.asp)

[FONT="Georgia"]
Article 14:
Education, Science and Technology, Arts, Culture, and Sports


Language

SEC. 7.
For purposes of communication and instruction, the official languages of the Philippines are Filipino and, until otherwise provided by law, English.
The regional languages are the auxiliary official languages in the regions and shall serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.
Spanish and Arabic shall be promoted on a voluntary and optional basis.

SEC. 8.
This Constitution shall be promulgated in Filipino and English and shall be translated into major regional languages, Arabic, and Spanish.

I don't exactly see the reason why Arabic should be here.

^^ Maybe for our Muslim brothers of the south.

^^ Maybe for our Muslim brothers of the south.

well, i have no problem with making native languages as "official" language of each region. but if we are to insist on a "national" language then let's just have something neutral. fair to all. or better just removed the title "national" and just call it an "official" language or maybe a language of administration to avoid equating it with "nationalism" and "patriotism". it's that simple. just remove the title of "national" and all will be well. anyway its just a title but it had brought us so many misunderstanding because those promoting tagalog had use the title to justify the promotion of tagalog as a measurement of one's "nationalism" and patriotism" and that's exactly the sentiment of nabartek and she's from luzon.

Well, what is really the considered "neutral language"? It can't be just english , spanish or any regional languages. Sure, any language can be a fair language, it's just a matter of acceptance including tagalog or bisaya.. but then with our english alone, there are people who opposed to it, and the spanish, so, which one is really neutral??

We can waste our time arguing what language to use nationally but then again, like I said and I repeat, we have a wrong opinion about certain region just as how Bob_b, showing hatred when he refers to Imperialist manila and tagalog. Will it change anything? I think not.. because people would still be complaining and be overly sensitive about how the tagalogs treats people who lives outside manila and there would be tagalogs or Manilenos who would mock people from outside manila especially on the way they talk... We would all be speaking english in all different accents we can't really change unless we remove and let our regional dialects die that we would be speaking english at home and talk like how Americans or Canadians talk...

Let's face it, it's not really the language the Bisayans were complaining about, it's how the bisayan perceived the Manila people mocking them in Media for crying outloud which isn't necessarily mean that every tagalog or Manilenos were doing. It's the "media" and media itself has all kinds of people coming from all different regions, including the bisayas which if we all watch TV, you would see Edu Mansano, Jon Estrada and other movie personalities who were not really tagalog themselves makes fun on how daily situations of life is about for the purpose of "pure enterntainments" because it's where the viewers were responding more with laughter... All I can see it that the bisayas are just having enough of this that there should be a change in "genre" or theme in Philippine humors on TV... I even see the bisayan I hang around with make fun of themselves when they say certain words in english and they laugh about it amongst themselves.. but I guess when a tagalog use it as a joke, it's a bad thing, because of a bad "apple" or "meat" in the past....

well, i have no problem with making native languages as "official" language of each region. but if we are to insist on a "national" language then let's just have something neutral. fair to all. or better just removed the title "national" and just call it an "official" language or maybe a language of administration to avoid equating it with "nationalism" and "patriotism". it's that simple. just remove the title of "national" and all will be well. anyway its just a title but it had brought us so many misunderstanding because those promoting tagalog had use the title to justify the promotion of tagalog as a measurement of one's "nationalism" and patriotism" and that's exactly the sentiment of nabartek and she's from luzon.

Well, what is really the considered "neutral language"? It can't be just english , spanish or any regional languages. Sure, any language can be a fair language, it's just a matter of acceptance including tagalog or bisaya.. but then with our english alone, there are people who opposed to it, and the spanish, so, which one is really neutral??

We can waste our time arguing what language to use nationally but then again, like I said and I repeat, we have a wrong opinion about certain region just as how Bob_b, showing hatred when he refers to Imperialist manila and tagalog. Will it change anything? I think not.. because people would still be complaining and be overly sensitive about how the tagalogs treats people who lives outside manila and there would be tagalogs or Manilenos who would mock people from outside manila especially on the way they talk... We would all be speaking english in all different accents we can't really change unless we remove and let our regional dialects die that we would be speaking english at home and talk like how Americans or Canadians talk...

Let's face it, it's not really the language the Bisayans were complaining about, it's how the bisayan perceived the Manila people mocking them in Media for crying outloud which isn't necessarily mean that every tagalog or Manilenos were doing. It's the "media" and media itself has all kinds of people coming from all different regions, including the bisayas which if we all watch TV, you would see Edu Mansano, Jon Estrada and other movie personalities who were not really tagalog themselves makes fun on how daily situations of life is about for the purpose of "pure enterntainments" because it's where the viewers were responding more with laughter... All I can see it that the bisayas are just having enough of this that there should be a change in "genre" or theme in Philippine humors on TV... I even see the bisayan I hang around with make fun of themselves when they say certain words in english and they laugh about it amongst themselves.. but I guess when a tagalog use it as a joke, it's a bad thing, because of a bad "apple" or "meat" in the past....

Then I deny don't recognize it.


Not all people can study Tagalog easily (In fact, they considered as a burden). The problem is not learning Tagalog, it's recognition of other languages.

Well, then, fine. You can deny it all you want. You can disregard that part of the Philippine Constitution all you want but that won't change a thing. Filipino is still the national language of the Philippines.

When you said "they considered [it] as a burden", who are "they"? If the national language was something else, say Cebuano, and people from other regions would have to learn it, do you think they would also consider learning Cebuano as a burden? We might as well disregard the entire Constitution because it asks us to do so many things; too much burden. Right?

I guess we all should go back and review our history. It is important to understand why Tagalog was chosen as the basis of our national language [but based on some previous readings, the current national language, Filipino, is based not only on Tagalog but also on other regional languages around the country]. So, why Tagalog? I don't need to go into details but I know that you are all aware how important the Katagalugan region's role was/is in our history. My point is, if the national language was something else, for example Cebuano, then the Constitution would designate it as the national language and people would have to learn the language. Eh kaso, hindi ganun ang nangyari. So, ganun din. Yung mga ayaw mag-aral ng Cebuano, magrereklamo pa rin. Sasabihin, Imperialistang Cebuano.

So, why is there too much hatred against the Tagalogs just because their language was chosen as the basis?

Then I deny don't recognize it.


Not all people can study Tagalog easily (In fact, they considered as a burden). The problem is not learning Tagalog, it's recognition of other languages.

Well, then, fine. You can deny it all you want. You can disregard that part of the Philippine Constitution all you want but that won't change a thing. Filipino is still the national language of the Philippines.

When you said "they considered [it] as a burden", who are "they"? If the national language was something else, say Cebuano, and people from other regions would have to learn it, do you think they would also consider learning Cebuano as a burden? We might as well disregard the entire Constitution because it asks us to do so many things; too much burden. Right?

I guess we all should go back and review our history. It is important to understand why Tagalog was chosen as the basis of our national language [but based on some previous readings, the current national language, Filipino, is based not only on Tagalog but also on other regional languages around the country]. So, why Tagalog? I don't need to go into details but I know that you are all aware how important the Katagalugan region's role was/is in our history. My point is, if the national language was something else, for example Cebuano, then the Constitution would designate it as the national language and people would have to learn the language. Eh kaso, hindi ganun ang nangyari. So, ganun din. Yung mga ayaw mag-aral ng Cebuano, magrereklamo pa rin. Sasabihin, Imperialistang Cebuano.

So, why is there too much hatred against the Tagalogs just because their language was chosen as the basis?

NO tyrone, it just happen that when the formed the Philippine constitution, apparently, there are more bisayan speakers populationwise but as far as people who can speak tagalog regardless of what region they are from, it just happen that they found out that there are alot of people who can speak and understand tagalog, it was posted in previous threads here before. For me, allowing bisayan language would replace tagalog as the national language wouldn't be a big deal since there are more bisayan than tagalog. But some people here say it's unfair, which I don't get why? If we can accept our very own why can't we? This is since there are tagalogs here who were willing to accept bisaya as the national language. But, there are bisaya here who prefer english or spanish for whatever reason they feel english is more proper, only they could only tell.. but I see it as not being happy of what they or we are because we/they would rather prefer foreign languages as if it will really change the way things are in the Philippines from national identity to economy... but there isn't really any changes happpening as long as our attitude would be this way, we would always remain a 3rd world country for the mere fact that we don't believe in ourselves and we rather be somebody else other than who we really are....

NO tyrone, it just happen that when the formed the Philippine constitution, apparently, there are more bisayan speakers populationwise but as far as people who can speak tagalog regardless of what region they are from, it just happen that they found out that there are alot of people who can speak and understand tagalog, it was posted in previous threads here before. For me, allowing bisayan language would replace tagalog as the national language wouldn't be a big deal since there are more bisayan than tagalog. But some people here say it's unfair, which I don't get why? If we can accept our very own why can't we? This is since there are tagalogs here who were willing to accept bisaya as the national language. But, there are bisaya here who prefer english or spanish for whatever reason they feel english is more proper, only they could only tell.. but I see it as not being happy of what they or we are because we/they would rather prefer foreign languages as if it will really change the way things are in the Philippines from national identity to economy... but there isn't really any changes happpening as long as our attitude would be this way, we would always remain a 3rd world country for the mere fact that we don't believe in ourselves and we rather be somebody else other than who we really are....

I don't hate the Tagalogs. I was born in Manila, my dad's side traces its roots around Katalugan. And tyronne I don't think the importance of the Tagalog regions in the Philippine Revolution is a valid reason to establishing the importance of the language. It undermines the efforts put to by the Kapampangans, Dagohoy in Bohol in the early 19th century, and also the Moro resistance throughout Spanish occupation. And if I remember correctly the Malolos Constitution was written in Spanish.

About mwg12a's point about English, I think it's eerie that you discuss English as if it were not 'our own', that is it "theirs", of America and Britain's. I think we're in the point of our country's history, or maybe just passed it that if we wanted we could drop English as our national language. Malaysia did it back in 1980, though in a way it is still de facto an official language over there seeing as it is still used widespread. I see the English language [no not Taglish, but English] as an integral part to the Philippines, it is not imposed to us by a foreign power but we choose to retain it. I certainly believe that a Filipino culture can be established within an English speaking environment, or a disglossic environment [which seems to be the most realistic scenario given the multilingualism in every part of the country]. The fact that upper-class Filipinos who frequently speak English look to "act American" is a concious decision by them, it is not a 'one size fits all' scenario.

In an ideal environment English should be the only language that every Filipino should be learning, the second language should be their regional language/dialect. But like I said earlier, it will be hard to go back and restart 60-70 years of Tagalog domination.

I don't hate the Tagalogs. I was born in Manila, my dad's side traces its roots around Katalugan. And tyronne I don't think the importance of the Tagalog regions in the Philippine Revolution is a valid reason to establishing the importance of the language. It undermines the efforts put to by the Kapampangans, Dagohoy in Bohol in the early 19th century, and also the Moro resistance throughout Spanish occupation. And if I remember correctly the Malolos Constitution was written in Spanish.

About mwg12a's point about English, I think it's eerie that you discuss English as if it were not 'our own', that is it "theirs", of America and Britain's. I think we're in the point of our country's history, or maybe just passed it that if we wanted we could drop English as our national language. Malaysia did it back in 1980, though in a way it is still de facto an official language over there seeing as it is still used widespread. I see the English language [no not Taglish, but English] as an integral part to the Philippines, it is not imposed to us by a foreign power but we choose to retain it. I certainly believe that a Filipino culture can be established within an English speaking environment, or a disglossic environment [which seems to be the most realistic scenario given the multilingualism in every part of the country]. The fact that upper-class Filipinos who frequently speak English look to "act American" is a concious decision by them, it is not a 'one size fits all' scenario.

In an ideal environment English should be the only language that every Filipino should be learning, the second language should be their regional language/dialect. But like I said earlier, it will be hard to go back and restart 60-70 years of Tagalog domination.

Well, what is really the considered "neutral language"? It can't be just english , spanish or any regional languages. Sure, any language can be a fair language, it's just a matter of acceptance including tagalog or bisaya.. but then with our english alone, there are people who opposed to it, and the spanish, so, which one is really neutral??

We can waste our time arguing what language to use nationally but then again, like I said and I repeat, we have a wrong opinion about certain region just as how Bob_b, showing hatred when he refers to Imperialist manila and tagalog. Will it change anything? I think not.. because people would still be complaining and be overly sensitive about how the tagalogs treats people who lives outside manila and there would be tagalogs or Manilenos who would mock people from outside manila especially on the way they talk... We would all be speaking english in all different accents we can't really change unless we remove and let our regional dialects die that we would be speaking english at home and talk like how Americans or Canadians talk...

Let's face it, it's not really the language the Bisayans were complaining about, it's how the bisayan perceived the Manila people mocking them in Media for crying outloud which isn't necessarily mean that every tagalog or Manilenos were doing. It's the "media" and media itself has all kinds of people coming from all different regions, including the bisayas which if we all watch TV, you would see Edu Mansano, Jon Estrada and other movie personalities who were not really tagalog themselves makes fun on how daily situations of life is about for the purpose of "pure enterntainments" because it's where the viewers were responding more with laughter... All I can see it that the bisayas are just having enough of this that there should be a change in "genre" or theme in Philippine humors on TV... I even see the bisayan I hang around with make fun of themselves when they say certain words in english and they laugh about it amongst themselves.. but I guess when a tagalog use it as a joke, it's a bad thing, because of a bad "apple" or "meat" in the past....

From what i know, it's not the ONLY reason. it all started when those promoting tagalog started to peddle tagalog as "nationalism" while those who were promoting non-tagalog language and literature are branded as "regionalistic" and confined only to the regions. if you read nabartek's previous posts you will see the exact sentiments of the bisayans. like the bisayans they too were clamoring for inclusion of their literatures and history into our philippine textbooks. but sad to say in our schools we haven't heard of any of the rich oral traditions of the natives being taught to us because our education is tagalog-centric because tagalog is being peddled as "nationalism" while those promoting non-tagalog literatures and history are branded as "regionalistic" and "divisive". and yet andres bonifacio who wants a Tagalog republic is peddled as a "national" hero. but where is "kangleon" who is said to have helped macathur liberate the philippines from japan? why isn't he a "national" hero too? why haven't we heard about him in our philippine textbooks.

so instead of attaching the title "national language" to Filipino which is basically tagalog. why don't we just removed the "national" title and called it "official" language. by calling it official language (language of government) you removed that wrong mentality that every filipino is tagalog. even foreigners think Filipino = Tagalog.

and when the title is removed, we would also remove the mentality that...

Nationalism = Tagalog; Non-tagalog = Regionalism...

Tagalog = Nationalistic
Non-Tagalog = Regionalistic

How can we remove that mentality if we continue to insist that Filipino (basically tagalog) is a "national" language.

if we remove the title national language and retain it as "official" language, they can promote "officialism" with tagalog but at least they can't call it "natioinalism" anymore. and thus solving a big part of the problem. so let's not have any "national" language. from what i know, many countries don't have a "national" language.

Well, what is really the considered "neutral language"? It can't be just english , spanish or any regional languages. Sure, any language can be a fair language, it's just a matter of acceptance including tagalog or bisaya.. but then with our english alone, there are people who opposed to it, and the spanish, so, which one is really neutral??

We can waste our time arguing what language to use nationally but then again, like I said and I repeat, we have a wrong opinion about certain region just as how Bob_b, showing hatred when he refers to Imperialist manila and tagalog. Will it change anything? I think not.. because people would still be complaining and be overly sensitive about how the tagalogs treats people who lives outside manila and there would be tagalogs or Manilenos who would mock people from outside manila especially on the way they talk... We would all be speaking english in all different accents we can't really change unless we remove and let our regional dialects die that we would be speaking english at home and talk like how Americans or Canadians talk...

Let's face it, it's not really the language the Bisayans were complaining about, it's how the bisayan perceived the Manila people mocking them in Media for crying outloud which isn't necessarily mean that every tagalog or Manilenos were doing. It's the "media" and media itself has all kinds of people coming from all different regions, including the bisayas which if we all watch TV, you would see Edu Mansano, Jon Estrada and other movie personalities who were not really tagalog themselves makes fun on how daily situations of life is about for the purpose of "pure enterntainments" because it's where the viewers were responding more with laughter... All I can see it that the bisayas are just having enough of this that there should be a change in "genre" or theme in Philippine humors on TV... I even see the bisayan I hang around with make fun of themselves when they say certain words in english and they laugh about it amongst themselves.. but I guess when a tagalog use it as a joke, it's a bad thing, because of a bad "apple" or "meat" in the past....

From what i know, it's not the ONLY reason. it all started when those promoting tagalog started to peddle tagalog as "nationalism" while those who were promoting non-tagalog language and literature are branded as "regionalistic" and confined only to the regions. if you read nabartek's previous posts you will see the exact sentiments of the bisayans. like the bisayans they too were clamoring for inclusion of their literatures and history into our philippine textbooks. but sad to say in our schools we haven't heard of any of the rich oral traditions of the natives being taught to us because our education is tagalog-centric because tagalog is being peddled as "nationalism" while those promoting non-tagalog literatures and history are branded as "regionalistic" and "divisive". and yet andres bonifacio who wants a Tagalog republic is peddled as a "national" hero. but where is "kangleon" who is said to have helped macathur liberate the philippines from japan? why isn't he a "national" hero too? why haven't we heard about him in our philippine textbooks.

so instead of attaching the title "national language" to Filipino which is basically tagalog. why don't we just removed the "national" title and called it "official" language. by calling it official language (language of government) you removed that wrong mentality that every filipino is tagalog. even foreigners think Filipino = Tagalog.

and when the title is removed, we would also remove the mentality that...

Nationalism = Tagalog; Non-tagalog = Regionalism...

Tagalog = Nationalistic
Non-Tagalog = Regionalistic

How can we remove that mentality if we continue to insist that Filipino (basically tagalog) is a "national" language.

if we remove the title national language and retain it as "official" language, they can promote "officialism" with tagalog but at least they can't call it "natioinalism" anymore. and thus solving a big part of the problem. so let's not have any "national" language. from what i know, many countries don't have a "national" language.

Hahah what do you know... a double pronged rebuttal from Bukid and I:D

Hahah what do you know... a double pronged rebuttal from Bukid and I:D

@ Bukid, I agree with all of your statement about inclusion of all other literatures of regional literature and such in all regions. It's time for that. I think most of the history is being discussed because almost of the revolution took place in Manila because it was the sit of the nation capital so if a foreign force would disable the whole internal functioning of a nation, they would target the heart of the nation which again, the capital where the sit of the main power is. True that the foreign forces landed in Cebu first but the brain child for the revolt are mostly in Manila from Jose Rizal to Mabini... If it was all false and Rizal was a pony, then the heroes who was the real brain child for the Philippine independence should be rightfully named... that is why alot about Manila revolution were being told all over the country as part of the Philippine history.

When we suggested that Bisaya language would be the national language, it was rejected by most of you because you all insist it should be just english. I see Bisaya can be a neutral language and is as good as a language of unity but it is not enough for some of you. It has to be english..... Well english is not the answer either, we fight about it here alone, i see it as more of a foreign language we were just adopting for business and commerce. I don't see it helping us change the mentality of the people especially the bisaya towards the tagalog, because you guys still thinks it's the Imperial manila as the culprit of all hardship all over the Philippines, english won't change that, you guys will still critisize the Imperial Manila, the only difference is you guys will say it in english rather than tagalog or bisaya. Where is the change there?

And no foreigners don't think filipino is tagalog, they don't even know what language is the national language in the Philippines, what sticks in their mind is what the language their girlfriend or wife speaks at home... Do they really care what language we speak? They still don't understand filipinos even if the filipinos speaks to them in filipino english...

At Renell, when did it ever in this world that english is the national language of the filipinos? Perhaps as an "official language" for business and commerce but it never was the NATIONAL LANGUAGE per se....


You're right, english has been an integral part of the Philippines partially in history because it was the Americans who introduced the proper education of the native filipinos , but when our forefathers created the constitution, they especified that tagalog or filipino is the national language. Perhaps they thought that having one language that is indigenous to our country would help unite the whole country as one but i guess it is not happening because we have filipinos that are too intelligent and too opinionated about alot of things, you can pretty much tell that in Philippine politics, everybody has their own opinion that seems to be right all the time and they clash. I believe it's in the nature of many filipinos who always have a negative opinion towards one another but that is just my opinion because it is what i see in Philippine politics and how we discuss in this thread. Everybody is always know it all and won't vouch to meet anybody in the middle so the filipinos can get along. There is always something...


So yes Renell, we use english because we borrowed and adopted it but it is not ours, it's not what the language each and every filipinos speaks at home to their parents and parents to their children. When you consider a language as our own, it's something we use on the daily basis particularly at home it's being spoken by 99 % of it's people at home, not just in courthouse or some offices, it's the primary language. that is why engish is only our secondary language otherwise, we would of been considered a native english speaker...

I can elect to deny my being filipino, after all, I am not a filipino citizen, I have never applied for it, I grew up partially in the Philippines til the age 18 so I won't lose my citizenship, but somehow, my being a filipino hunts me because once I look at myself in the mirror, I see my self as someone who is of a filipino heritage raised by a filipino mother in more of a filipino way and fed us adobo just like any other filipino families. It's hard not to miss it, I can see it and I know I have to learn how to be proud of my heritage. I can run but I can't hide what I am and who I am, that is why I am being more passionate about my background because there is no means of running away from it. What can else one can do? Just be happy or what you've got and hopefully other filipinos see it the way I see myself in the mirror....

@ Bukid, I agree with all of your statement about inclusion of all other literatures of regional literature and such in all regions. It's time for that. I think most of the history is being discussed because almost of the revolution took place in Manila because it was the sit of the nation capital so if a foreign force would disable the whole internal functioning of a nation, they would target the heart of the nation which again, the capital where the sit of the main power is. True that the foreign forces landed in Cebu first but the brain child for the revolt are mostly in Manila from Jose Rizal to Mabini... If it was all false and Rizal was a pony, then the heroes who was the real brain child for the Philippine independence should be rightfully named... that is why alot about Manila revolution were being told all over the country as part of the Philippine history.

When we suggested that Bisaya language would be the national language, it was rejected by most of you because you all insist it should be just english. I see Bisaya can be a neutral language and is as good as a language of unity but it is not enough for some of you. It has to be english..... Well english is not the answer either, we fight about it here alone, i see it as more of a foreign language we were just adopting for business and commerce. I don't see it helping us change the mentality of the people especially the bisaya towards the tagalog, because you guys still thinks it's the Imperial manila as the culprit of all hardship all over the Philippines, english won't change that, you guys will still critisize the Imperial Manila, the only difference is you guys will say it in english rather than tagalog or bisaya. Where is the change there?

And no foreigners don't think filipino is tagalog, they don't even know what language is the national language in the Philippines, what sticks in their mind is what the language their girlfriend or wife speaks at home... Do they really care what language we speak? They still don't understand filipinos even if the filipinos speaks to them in filipino english...

At Renell, when did it ever in this world that english is the national language of the filipinos? Perhaps as an "official language" for business and commerce but it never was the NATIONAL LANGUAGE per se....


You're right, english has been an integral part of the Philippines partially in history because it was the Americans who introduced the proper education of the native filipinos , but when our forefathers created the constitution, they especified that tagalog or filipino is the national language. Perhaps they thought that having one language that is indigenous to our country would help unite the whole country as one but i guess it is not happening because we have filipinos that are too intelligent and too opinionated about alot of things, you can pretty much tell that in Philippine politics, everybody has their own opinion that seems to be right all the time and they clash. I believe it's in the nature of many filipinos who always have a negative opinion towards one another but that is just my opinion because it is what i see in Philippine politics and how we discuss in this thread. Everybody is always know it all and won't vouch to meet anybody in the middle so the filipinos can get along. There is always something...


So yes Renell, we use english because we borrowed and adopted it but it is not ours, it's not what the language each and every filipinos speaks at home to their parents and parents to their children. When you consider a language as our own, it's something we use on the daily basis particularly at home it's being spoken by 99 % of it's people at home, not just in courthouse or some offices, it's the primary language. that is why engish is only our secondary language otherwise, we would of been considered a native english speaker...

I can elect to deny my being filipino, after all, I am not a filipino citizen, I have never applied for it, I grew up partially in the Philippines til the age 18 so I won't lose my citizenship, but somehow, my being a filipino hunts me because once I look at myself in the mirror, I see my self as someone who is of a filipino heritage raised by a filipino mother in more of a filipino way and fed us adobo just like any other filipino families. It's hard not to miss it, I can see it and I know I have to learn how to be proud of my heritage. I can run but I can't hide what I am and who I am, that is why I am being more passionate about my background because there is no means of running away from it. What can else one can do? Just be happy or what you've got and hopefully other filipinos see it the way I see myself in the mirror....

Okay, I apologize for the typos above, i can't keep up with it anymore. I made some changes so it might mess up some of that sentences or spelling even. I suck when it comes to proof reading of my own post, this is an informal discussion anyway and I have no bad meat whatsoever with anybody, it's all just for the benefit of a healthy and intelligent discussion. I mean no offense to anybody whatsoever, infact I admire the intelligence of alot of people here in both camps... thank you!

Okay, I apologize for the typos above, i can't keep up with it anymore. I made some changes so it might mess up some of that sentences or spelling even. I suck when it comes to proof reading of my own post, this is an informal discussion anyway and I have no bad meat whatsoever with anybody, it's all just for the benefit of a healthy and intelligent discussion. I mean no offense to anybody whatsoever, infact I admire the intelligence of alot of people here in both camps... thank you!

@ Bukid, I agree with all of your statement about inclusion of all other literatures of regional literature and such in all regions. It's time for that. I think most of the history is being discussed because almost of the revolution took place in Manila because it was the sit of the nation capital so if a foreign force would disable the whole internal functioning of a nation, they would target the heart of the nation which again, the capital where the sit of the main power is. True that the foreign forces landed in Cebu first but the brain child for the revolt are mostly in Manila from Jose Rizal to Mabini... If it was all false and Rizal was a pony, then the heroes who was the real brain child for the Philippine independence should be rightfully named... that is why alot about Manila revolution were being told all over the country as part of the Philippine history.

When we suggested that Bisaya language would be the national language, it was rejected by most of you because you all insist it should be just english. I see Bisaya can be a neutral language and is as good as a language of unity but it is not enough for some of you. It has to be english..... Well english is not the answer either, we fight about it here alone, i see it as more of a foreign language we were just adopting for business and commerce. I don't see it helping us change the mentality of the people especially the bisaya towards the tagalog, because you guys still thinks it's the Imperial manila as the culprit of all hardship all over the Philippines, english won't change that, you guys will still critisize the Imperial Manila, the only difference is you guys will say it in english rather than tagalog or bisaya. Where is the change there?

And no foreigners don't think filipino is tagalog, they don't even know what language is the national language in the Philippines, what sticks in their mind is what the language their girlfriend or wife speaks at home... Do they really care what language we speak? They still don't understand filipinos even if the filipinos speaks to them in filipino english...

At Renell, when did it ever in this world that english is the national language of the filipinos? Perhaps as an "official language" for business and commerce but it never was the NATIONAL LANGUAGE per se....


You're right, english has been an integral part of the Philippines partially in history because it was the Americans who introduced the proper education of the native filipinos , but when our forefathers created the constitution, they especified that tagalog or filipino is the national language. Perhaps they thought that having one language that is indigenous to our country would help unite the whole country as one but i guess it is not happening because we have filipinos that are too intelligent and too opinionated about alot of things, you can pretty much tell that in Philippine politics, everybody has their own opinion that seems to be right all the time and they clash. I believe it's in the nature of many filipinos who always have a negative opinion towards one another but that is just my opinion because it is what i see in Philippine politics and how we discuss in this thread. Everybody is always know it all and won't vouch to meet anybody in the middle so the filipinos can get along. There is always something...


So yes Renell, we use english because we borrowed and adopted it but it is not ours, it's not what the language each and every filipinos speaks at home to their parents and parents to their children. When you consider a language as our own, it's something we use on the daily basis particularly at home it's being spoken by 99 % of it's people at home, not just in courthouse or some offices, it's the primary language. that is why engish is only our secondary language otherwise, we would of been considered a native english speaker...

I can elect to deny my being filipino, after all, I am not a filipino citizen, I have never applied for it, I grew up partially in the Philippines til the age 18 so I won't lose my citizenship, but somehow, my being a filipino hunts me because once I look at myself in the mirror, I see my self as someone who is of a filipino heritage raised by a filipino mother in more of a filipino way and fed us adobo just like any other filipino families. It's hard not to miss it, I can see it and I know I have to learn how to be proud of my heritage. I can run but I can't hide what I am and who I am, that is why I am being more passionate about my background because there is no means of running away from it. What can else one can do? Just be happy or what you've got and hopefully other filipinos see it the way I see myself in the mirror....

i dont know that the bisayans rejected the idea of making bisaya a national language but i have the opinion that tbhey did so because they know that in the philippines, it is better to have no "national" language. with over 50 languages in these islands, it is best t just forget about giving the title of "national" language to any one language. instead, let's have official language(s) that can be used by the government. but if we insist on having a national language then by all means let's have a commitee of scholars to create a language that is truly "national" much like esperanto in europe. unlike the present "Filipino" that is basicaly tagalog with 100% of tagalog vocabulary in it.

there is no problem with having official languages without a "national" language. i don't know why people keep on insisting that one language had to be made a national language. i'm not even in favor of calling english or spanish a "national" language. being an official language is already more than enough.

to many foreigners i know filipino = tagalog. if you are filipino, they think you speak tagalog. and yes they don't know what we are speaking but they often assume it's tagalog.

@ Bukid, I agree with all of your statement about inclusion of all other literatures of regional literature and such in all regions. It's time for that. I think most of the history is being discussed because almost of the revolution took place in Manila because it was the sit of the nation capital so if a foreign force would disable the whole internal functioning of a nation, they would target the heart of the nation which again, the capital where the sit of the main power is. True that the foreign forces landed in Cebu first but the brain child for the revolt are mostly in Manila from Jose Rizal to Mabini... If it was all false and Rizal was a pony, then the heroes who was the real brain child for the Philippine independence should be rightfully named... that is why alot about Manila revolution were being told all over the country as part of the Philippine history.

When we suggested that Bisaya language would be the national language, it was rejected by most of you because you all insist it should be just english. I see Bisaya can be a neutral language and is as good as a language of unity but it is not enough for some of you. It has to be english..... Well english is not the answer either, we fight about it here alone, i see it as more of a foreign language we were just adopting for business and commerce. I don't see it helping us change the mentality of the people especially the bisaya towards the tagalog, because you guys still thinks it's the Imperial manila as the culprit of all hardship all over the Philippines, english won't change that, you guys will still critisize the Imperial Manila, the only difference is you guys will say it in english rather than tagalog or bisaya. Where is the change there?

And no foreigners don't think filipino is tagalog, they don't even know what language is the national language in the Philippines, what sticks in their mind is what the language their girlfriend or wife speaks at home... Do they really care what language we speak? They still don't understand filipinos even if the filipinos speaks to them in filipino english...

At Renell, when did it ever in this world that english is the national language of the filipinos? Perhaps as an "official language" for business and commerce but it never was the NATIONAL LANGUAGE per se....


You're right, english has been an integral part of the Philippines partially in history because it was the Americans who introduced the proper education of the native filipinos , but when our forefathers created the constitution, they especified that tagalog or filipino is the national language. Perhaps they thought that having one language that is indigenous to our country would help unite the whole country as one but i guess it is not happening because we have filipinos that are too intelligent and too opinionated about alot of things, you can pretty much tell that in Philippine politics, everybody has their own opinion that seems to be right all the time and they clash. I believe it's in the nature of many filipinos who always have a negative opinion towards one another but that is just my opinion because it is what i see in Philippine politics and how we discuss in this thread. Everybody is always know it all and won't vouch to meet anybody in the middle so the filipinos can get along. There is always something...


So yes Renell, we use english because we borrowed and adopted it but it is not ours, it's not what the language each and every filipinos speaks at home to their parents and parents to their children. When you consider a language as our own, it's something we use on the daily basis particularly at home it's being spoken by 99 % of it's people at home, not just in courthouse or some offices, it's the primary language. that is why engish is only our secondary language otherwise, we would of been considered a native english speaker...

I can elect to deny my being filipino, after all, I am not a filipino citizen, I have never applied for it, I grew up partially in the Philippines til the age 18 so I won't lose my citizenship, but somehow, my being a filipino hunts me because once I look at myself in the mirror, I see my self as someone who is of a filipino heritage raised by a filipino mother in more of a filipino way and fed us adobo just like any other filipino families. It's hard not to miss it, I can see it and I know I have to learn how to be proud of my heritage. I can run but I can't hide what I am and who I am, that is why I am being more passionate about my background because there is no means of running away from it. What can else one can do? Just be happy or what you've got and hopefully other filipinos see it the way I see myself in the mirror....

i dont know that the bisayans rejected the idea of making bisaya a national language but i have the opinion that tbhey did so because they know that in the philippines, it is better to have no "national" language. with over 50 languages in these islands, it is best t just forget about giving the title of "national" language to any one language. instead, let's have official language(s) that can be used by the government. but if we insist on having a national language then by all means let's have a commitee of scholars to create a language that is truly "national" much like esperanto in europe. unlike the present "Filipino" that is basicaly tagalog with 100% of tagalog vocabulary in it.

there is no problem with having official languages without a "national" language. i don't know why people keep on insisting that one language had to be made a national language. i'm not even in favor of calling english or spanish a "national" language. being an official language is already more than enough.

to many foreigners i know filipino = tagalog. if you are filipino, they think you speak tagalog. and yes they don't know what we are speaking but they often assume it's tagalog.

^^^ From my experience not just with american alone, when they ask a filipino what language they speak, they think it's similar to chinese and they don't have a clue what it sounds like. For all the foreigners who has been in the Philippines, surely, they knew there is more than one languages and dialects in the Philippines.


A national language of a country also refect a country's national identity, that's why each and every country has it's own national language. It may not be spoken by each and every citizen of a country such as China with 5 languages/dialects, Belgium with 3, India and Pakistan with 3 or 4 each and so forth. It just the way it is and I don't see the reason why that has to change because it does not harm anybody. If a bisaya or ilocano didn't want to speak the tagalog language, I don't think they get prosecuted nor tortured for not learning the tagalog language. There is a reason for it, that's for better understanding, it's like the old saying where we always say, there is no place like home, no matter where you go and love other places but when it comes to where you are really at home, you can easily relate to it. In english, unless we speak it at home we would never really feel at home and there is no real true understanding because it's not the language we speak at home, but if we wanted to make it "feel at home" we have to drop our regional languages and speak english at home because there is no other better way for better understanding other than the language you whole heartedly understand...

^^^ From my experience not just with american alone, when they ask a filipino what language they speak, they think it's similar to chinese and they don't have a clue what it sounds like. For all the foreigners who has been in the Philippines, surely, they knew there is more than one languages and dialects in the Philippines.


A national language of a country also refect a country's national identity, that's why each and every country has it's own national language. It may not be spoken by each and every citizen of a country such as China with 5 languages/dialects, Belgium with 3, India and Pakistan with 3 or 4 each and so forth. It just the way it is and I don't see the reason why that has to change because it does not harm anybody. If a bisaya or ilocano didn't want to speak the tagalog language, I don't think they get prosecuted nor tortured for not learning the tagalog language. There is a reason for it, that's for better understanding, it's like the old saying where we always say, there is no place like home, no matter where you go and love other places but when it comes to where you are really at home, you can easily relate to it. In english, unless we speak it at home we would never really feel at home and there is no real true understanding because it's not the language we speak at home, but if we wanted to make it "feel at home" we have to drop our regional languages and speak english at home because there is no other better way for better understanding other than the language you whole heartedly understand...

:lol: I can compare our dialects to food.

Yung adobo ng Tagalog, iba sa Ilocano at sa Bisaya, Yung pakbet at menudo, iba din ang mga lasa nila. Pati laing sa Bikol, iba iba ang style from different towns of Bikol province.

Tapos pumasok ang McDonalds Hamburjer ~ ayun, walang reklamo. :D

:lol: I can compare our dialects to food.

Yung adobo ng Tagalog, iba sa Ilocano at sa Bisaya, Yung pakbet at menudo, iba din ang mga lasa nila. Pati laing sa Bikol, iba iba ang style from different towns of Bikol province.

Tapos pumasok ang McDonalds Hamburjer ~ ayun, walang reklamo. :D

^^^ I think what is going on here now is more of just "pride" I don't think learning tagalog would make a bisaya less of a bisaya or illongga because they are not being asked to forget their own native languages. Otherwise, there would be a law banning all the people to speak their native regional languages and dialects and to speak only strictly tagalog and english. As we already knew, in the article you posted tsinoy, english, spanish and arabic were all mentioned and the regional dialects were especified albeit it was not especifically stated one by one for obvious reason, there are just too many of it.

I don't think i would be less of a tagalog or Ilocano, or kapangpangan for instance if I will speak bisaya as a national language.. people are just reading way too much into it..

The only problem with all these is the flaws in the Philippine educational system where the local and regional literature were added in their respective regional schools, but then again, there are wayyyyyyyyy too many of them to add and it will cost alot of money to revise everything...

Thats the problem with us filipinos, we are so opinionated and we read too much through the lines so there is always conflict. No wonder we have no national unity and understanding because everybody wants to be "the bomb" the ones who will get primary noticed and the tagalogs and Manilenos are not excempted to this, it's one thing a filipino shares in comon. we always know it all but to the wrong purpose alot of times...

^^^ I think what is going on here now is more of just "pride" I don't think learning tagalog would make a bisaya less of a bisaya or illongga because they are not being asked to forget their own native languages. Otherwise, there would be a law banning all the people to speak their native regional languages and dialects and to speak only strictly tagalog and english. As we already knew, in the article you posted tsinoy, english, spanish and arabic were all mentioned and the regional dialects were especified albeit it was not especifically stated one by one for obvious reason, there are just too many of it.

I don't think i would be less of a tagalog or Ilocano, or kapangpangan for instance if I will speak bisaya as a national language.. people are just reading way too much into it..

The only problem with all these is the flaws in the Philippine educational system where the local and regional literature were added in their respective regional schools, but then again, there are wayyyyyyyyy too many of them to add and it will cost alot of money to revise everything...

Thats the problem with us filipinos, we are so opinionated and we read too much through the lines so there is always conflict. No wonder we have no national unity and understanding because everybody wants to be "the bomb" the ones who will get primary noticed and the tagalogs and Manilenos are not excempted to this, it's one thing a filipino shares in comon. we always know it all but to the wrong purpose alot of times...

I don't want to go back the myriad of deep intellectual posts, so I'll just make myself clear. I may have interchangeably used "official language" and "national language". Of course they are different and I would be silly not to recognize this mistake.

I may take for granted my ability to speak near-fluent English, but I think the next couple of generations [at least from the middle-classes] should be able to speak fluent English as if they were a native speaker. I think the country has sufficient exposure to English discourse whether it be local or international material to consider itself as a L1 Anglophone nation by 2020. I believe we are at an infancy of English indigenization. The fact that it is our official language and yet many of us are not proficient at it indicates more about our education system [or the lack of it] more than Filipino reluctantness.

About the constitution, we have had about 4 constitutions, one per Republic we've had, 5 if you include the Commonwealth. In my research, I still haven't come up with information that states that Filipino/Tagalog/Pilipino was included in the constitution before 1973 [Marcos's Third Republic].

Just a small tangent: You know, in all of this discussion, there has been a interchangeable term for our national language: Filipino and Tagalog. Technically Tagalog is not our national language. In our latest constitution, there is no Tagalog. According to the 1987 Constitution "as [Filipino] evolves, it shall be further developed and enriched on the basis of existing Philippine and other languages." 21 years since that, I think we can all agree Filipino is still pretty much Tagalog in all linguistic departments. Unlike the Indonesians who have installed an "artificial" language that is Bahasa Indonesia, the Constitution is basically saying to us let's just wait for the other language to mix into one common one. This lack of clarity isn't helping clear the debate between Tagalog's perceived imperialist approach to other Filipino languages.

I don't want to go back the myriad of deep intellectual posts, so I'll just make myself clear. I may have interchangeably used "official language" and "national language". Of course they are different and I would be silly not to recognize this mistake.

I may take for granted my ability to speak near-fluent English, but I think the next couple of generations [at least from the middle-classes] should be able to speak fluent English as if they were a native speaker. I think the country has sufficient exposure to English discourse whether it be local or international material to consider itself as a L1 Anglophone nation by 2020. I believe we are at an infancy of English indigenization. The fact that it is our official language and yet many of us are not proficient at it indicates more about our education system [or the lack of it] more than Filipino reluctantness.

About the constitution, we have had about 4 constitutions, one per Republic we've had, 5 if you include the Commonwealth. In my research, I still haven't come up with information that states that Filipino/Tagalog/Pilipino was included in the constitution before 1973 [Marcos's Third Republic].

Just a small tangent: You know, in all of this discussion, there has been a interchangeable term for our national language: Filipino and Tagalog. Technically Tagalog is not our national language. In our latest constitution, there is no Tagalog. According to the 1987 Constitution "as [Filipino] evolves, it shall be further developed and enriched on the basis of existing Philippine and other languages." 21 years since that, I think we can all agree Filipino is still pretty much Tagalog in all linguistic departments. Unlike the Indonesians who have installed an "artificial" language that is Bahasa Indonesia, the Constitution is basically saying to us let's just wait for the other language to mix into one common one. This lack of clarity isn't helping clear the debate between Tagalog's perceived imperialist approach to other Filipino languages.

But many filipinos especially those with higher education is already fluent in english, almost like a real native english speaker. The difference is the accent, the filipino english we speak because the filipinos learn it from school. Remember? Most filipinos started learning english alphabet in gradeschool?

But you're right, technically, the national language is filipino according to what people have been posting here. But as far as I can remember when I went to the Philippine school in my earlier years, they would especifically teach us that tagalog is the national language and never was just filipino. filipino was the people as far as I can remember. I am not sure when the Philippine government changed it, perhaps, around Cory Aquino's administration, a kapangpangan chinese who advocates tagalog language basing on her premise that our neighboring asian countries speaks their own native and indigenous language and are all considered progressive and who remains to be progressive up to this day in age. I also know that Ferdinand Marcos who is an Ilocano with a waray wife Imelda advocated the one language one country and used tagalog as the language for the whole country. So, it could be either of the two eras who changed the word TAGALOG to FILIPINO for the language instead of FILIPINO the people alone...

What I am really advocating here has really nothing to do in changing the national language or to change it. I don't see any benefit of all of those except we will help the people be able to speak better english since the english language skill is declining in that country. I can see region will be fighting against other region using the english language but nothing is really gonna accomplish with it because the main problem in the Philippines is the economy. Maybe the people are just bored and tired on figuring out why the Philippines is a poor country and our women is seen as either a domestic helper, once a japayuki and a mail-order-bride or simply a bunch of people escaping the poverty in our country so we move or migrate in all different countries all over the world, because of this poverty so we tend to point fingers on who to blame for with our mishaps, but we keep on forgetting that the problem itself is within ourselves. we tend to educate our kids to get a degree so we can be employed or land a job in the US where people were all rushing to taste the American dream mostly which is really sad, because even rich people in the Philippines are even attracted to move elsewhere instead of becoming resilient and help our own economy by creating jobs within the Philippines and improve the exporting revenue and tourism that would help uplift the lives of the filipino people, but then no, we rather chose to feel the life outside the Philippines and change our citizenship just because it is what everybody is doing already.. I can't say I can blame our people but we do need to stop and think twice before we become bitter on one region to another...

But many filipinos especially those with higher education is already fluent in english, almost like a real native english speaker. The difference is the accent, the filipino english we speak because the filipinos learn it from school. Remember? Most filipinos started learning english alphabet in gradeschool?

But you're right, technically, the national language is filipino according to what people have been posting here. But as far as I can remember when I went to the Philippine school in my earlier years, they would especifically teach us that tagalog is the national language and never was just filipino. filipino was the people as far as I can remember. I am not sure when the Philippine government changed it, perhaps, around Cory Aquino's administration, a kapangpangan chinese who advocates tagalog language basing on her premise that our neighboring asian countries speaks their own native and indigenous language and are all considered progressive and who remains to be progressive up to this day in age. I also know that Ferdinand Marcos who is an Ilocano with a waray wife Imelda advocated the one language one country and used tagalog as the language for the whole country. So, it could be either of the two eras who changed the word TAGALOG to FILIPINO for the language instead of FILIPINO the people alone...

What I am really advocating here has really nothing to do in changing the national language or to change it. I don't see any benefit of all of those except we will help the people be able to speak better english since the english language skill is declining in that country. I can see region will be fighting against other region using the english language but nothing is really gonna accomplish with it because the main problem in the Philippines is the economy. Maybe the people are just bored and tired on figuring out why the Philippines is a poor country and our women is seen as either a domestic helper, once a japayuki and a mail-order-bride or simply a bunch of people escaping the poverty in our country so we move or migrate in all different countries all over the world, because of this poverty so we tend to point fingers on who to blame for with our mishaps, but we keep on forgetting that the problem itself is within ourselves. we tend to educate our kids to get a degree so we can be employed or land a job in the US where people were all rushing to taste the American dream mostly which is really sad, because even rich people in the Philippines are even attracted to move elsewhere instead of becoming resilient and help our own economy by creating jobs within the Philippines and improve the exporting revenue and tourism that would help uplift the lives of the filipino people, but then no, we rather chose to feel the life outside the Philippines and change our citizenship just because it is what everybody is doing already.. I can't say I can blame our people but we do need to stop and think twice before we become bitter on one region to another...

:lol: I can compare our dialects to food.

Yung adobo ng Tagalog, iba sa Ilocano at sa Bisaya, Yung pakbet at menudo, iba din ang mga lasa nila. Pati laing sa Bikol, iba iba ang style from different towns of Bikol province.

Tapos pumasok ang McDonalds Hamburjer ~ ayun, walang reklamo. :D

tama ka! iisa lang ang mcdonald's kahit saang sulok ng pilipinas. so it could be, parang neutral ang dating!:D i dream of the day when we will have jollibee in our language. a homegrown neutral language acceptable to all. as what @renell stated, our philippine counterpart of a bahasa indonesia. but that's a tall order.

and then i briefly forgot that jollibee has many parallel products to mcdonald's. so balik pa rin tayo sa english!:lol:

:lol: I can compare our dialects to food.

Yung adobo ng Tagalog, iba sa Ilocano at sa Bisaya, Yung pakbet at menudo, iba din ang mga lasa nila. Pati laing sa Bikol, iba iba ang style from different towns of Bikol province.

Tapos pumasok ang McDonalds Hamburjer ~ ayun, walang reklamo. :D

tama ka! iisa lang ang mcdonald's kahit saang sulok ng pilipinas. so it could be, parang neutral ang dating!:D i dream of the day when we will have jollibee in our language. a homegrown neutral language acceptable to all. as what @renell stated, our philippine counterpart of a bahasa indonesia. but that's a tall order.

and then i briefly forgot that jollibee has many parallel products to mcdonald's. so balik pa rin tayo sa english!:lol:

^^ Jollibee might be the Taglish equivalent... :lol:

^^ Jollibee might be the Taglish equivalent... :lol:

HA HA, natawa ako diyan sa sinabi mo eonynx

HA HA, natawa ako diyan sa sinabi mo eonynx

:lol:

^^ Jollibee might be the Taglish equivalent... :lol:

in that case 'di pala neutral kasi maraming galit diyan!:lol:

:lol:

^^ Jollibee might be the Taglish equivalent... :lol:

in that case 'di pala neutral kasi maraming galit diyan!:lol:

Filipinos are a mixture; a polyglot. That's it; that's why there's very little national 'identity;' and whatever manfiestations there are of it, are very 'quaint.' We just have to accept our hybrid status -- and that is both a curse and a blessing. Tapos.

Filipinos are a mixture; a polyglot. That's it; that's why there's very little national 'identity;' and whatever manfiestations there are of it, are very 'quaint.' We just have to accept our hybrid status -- and that is both a curse and a blessing. Tapos.

^^^ From my experience not just with american alone, when they ask a filipino what language they speak, they think it's similar to chinese and they don't have a clue what it sounds like. For all the foreigners who has been in the Philippines, surely, they knew there is more than one languages and dialects in the Philippines.


A national language of a country also refect a country's national identity, that's why each and every country has it's own national language. It may not be spoken by each and every citizen of a country such as China with 5 languages/dialects, Belgium with 3, India and Pakistan with 3 or 4 each and so forth. It just the way it is and I don't see the reason why that has to change because it does not harm anybody. If a bisaya or ilocano didn't want to speak the tagalog language, I don't think they get prosecuted nor tortured for not learning the tagalog language. There is a reason for it, that's for better understanding, it's like the old saying where we always say, there is no place like home, no matter where you go and love other places but when it comes to where you are really at home, you can easily relate to it. In english, unless we speak it at home we would never really feel at home and there is no real true understanding because it's not the language we speak at home, but if we wanted to make it "feel at home" we have to drop our regional languages and speak english at home because there is no other better way for better understanding other than the language you whole heartedly understand...

Do you know that india had NO national language?!? and yet they had no problem with their national pride and identity. when you ask them if they are pakistani. they might even grab your neck and tell you "hey, i'm indian! you understand! you idiot!" :)

^^^ From my experience not just with american alone, when they ask a filipino what language they speak, they think it's similar to chinese and they don't have a clue what it sounds like. For all the foreigners who has been in the Philippines, surely, they knew there is more than one languages and dialects in the Philippines.


A national language of a country also refect a country's national identity, that's why each and every country has it's own national language. It may not be spoken by each and every citizen of a country such as China with 5 languages/dialects, Belgium with 3, India and Pakistan with 3 or 4 each and so forth. It just the way it is and I don't see the reason why that has to change because it does not harm anybody. If a bisaya or ilocano didn't want to speak the tagalog language, I don't think they get prosecuted nor tortured for not learning the tagalog language. There is a reason for it, that's for better understanding, it's like the old saying where we always say, there is no place like home, no matter where you go and love other places but when it comes to where you are really at home, you can easily relate to it. In english, unless we speak it at home we would never really feel at home and there is no real true understanding because it's not the language we speak at home, but if we wanted to make it "feel at home" we have to drop our regional languages and speak english at home because there is no other better way for better understanding other than the language you whole heartedly understand...

Do you know that india had NO national language?!? and yet they had no problem with their national pride and identity. when you ask them if they are pakistani. they might even grab your neck and tell you "hey, i'm indian! you understand! you idiot!" :)

Do you know that india had NO national language?!? and yet they had no problem with their national pride and identity. when you ask them if they are pakistani. they might even grab your neck and tell you "hey, i'm indian! you understand! you idiot!" :)

I've had indian and pakistani friends in College actually so I am aware of the difference. India's national and more widely spoken language is HINDI, they do have punjabi and such. Hindi is also similar to Pakistani's Urdu which is Pakistani's main language, there is a very small difference between the two. When one say Quia hale in hindi, it's the same Quia hale in Urdu where you would respond "ti gue" it basically means I'm fine.

They do have national pride because they adhere to their national tradition and custom and they try not to have their beliefs broken by western influences which the filipinos mostly don't have. They still communicate with one another from one region to another in HINDI and not in english inspite the fact that english is also a language for commerce in India, similar to it. The Indian people never have any problem with the Hindi language and they are not fighting to have that changed because they keep that language spoken within their homes and to felllow contrymen which is what we don't have. We fight about a language which really isn't really harming other regions except being taught to people to learn tagalog because its the national language, it was never meant to change the language every region spoken at home because again, otherwise, there would be a law banning regional languages to be spoken at home. We do have "Kundiman" being sung in Bisaya right? it means, tagalog aren't really killing the bisaya nor any other dialects in the Philippines. The Muslim is allowed to teach their writing in Islamic schools and be taught with anything arabic or their native tongue, other wise, Islam isn't allowed to be practiced in the Philippines whatsoever...

Added: I've checked India's profile and found out that "Hindi" is infact the official language of India or they usually refer it to as " language of the Union", Hindi is being spoken by 75% or it's population. English is exclusively used in business and administration , English is the "subsidiary official language"

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z170/midwestguy1/Indiasreliandlanguage.jpg

Do you know that india had NO national language?!? and yet they had no problem with their national pride and identity. when you ask them if they are pakistani. they might even grab your neck and tell you "hey, i'm indian! you understand! you idiot!" :)

I've had indian and pakistani friends in College actually so I am aware of the difference. India's national and more widely spoken language is HINDI, they do have punjabi and such. Hindi is also similar to Pakistani's Urdu which is Pakistani's main language, there is a very small difference between the two. When one say Quia hale in hindi, it's the same Quia hale in Urdu where you would respond "ti gue" it basically means I'm fine.

They do have national pride because they adhere to their national tradition and custom and they try not to have their beliefs broken by western influences which the filipinos mostly don't have. They still communicate with one another from one region to another in HINDI and not in english inspite the fact that english is also a language for commerce in India, similar to it. The Indian people never have any problem with the Hindi language and they are not fighting to have that changed because they keep that language spoken within their homes and to felllow contrymen which is what we don't have. We fight about a language which really isn't really harming other regions except being taught to people to learn tagalog because its the national language, it was never meant to change the language every region spoken at home because again, otherwise, there would be a law banning regional languages to be spoken at home. We do have "Kundiman" being sung in Bisaya right? it means, tagalog aren't really killing the bisaya nor any other dialects in the Philippines. The Muslim is allowed to teach their writing in Islamic schools and be taught with anything arabic or their native tongue, other wise, Islam isn't allowed to be practiced in the Philippines whatsoever...

Added: I've checked India's profile and found out that "Hindi" is infact the official language of India or they usually refer it to as " language of the Union", Hindi is being spoken by 75% or it's population. English is exclusively used in business and administration , English is the "subsidiary official language"

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z170/midwestguy1/Indiasreliandlanguage.jpg

Filipinos are a mixture; a polyglot. That's it; that's why there's very little national 'identity;' and whatever manfiestations there are of it, are very 'quaint.' We just have to accept our hybrid status -- and that is both a curse and a blessing. Tapos.

Most other nations all over the world is the same, there are very few countries who are really pure. But yes, I agree with you, we have to accept the mixture of our culture and be happy about it. Not critisize one another and instead we should work hand in hand with better understanding of one another. But, apparently it's not enough. Someone would always come up with something and grip about it. Just look at hour politics alone it seems like every filipinos have paranoia towards one another that one group is always out to harm other groups...

Filipinos are a mixture; a polyglot. That's it; that's why there's very little national 'identity;' and whatever manfiestations there are of it, are very 'quaint.' We just have to accept our hybrid status -- and that is both a curse and a blessing. Tapos.

Most other nations all over the world is the same, there are very few countries who are really pure. But yes, I agree with you, we have to accept the mixture of our culture and be happy about it. Not critisize one another and instead we should work hand in hand with better understanding of one another. But, apparently it's not enough. Someone would always come up with something and grip about it. Just look at hour politics alone it seems like every filipinos have paranoia towards one another that one group is always out to harm other groups...

The resistance of people from the Visayas or Mindanao on Tagalog as the national language should be taken as a subtle protest on how they perceive the Tagalogs. The latter often ridicule the Visayans on how they speak some words, thus consequently, they have this feeling of resentment against the Tagalogs and its imposition as the national language. As a protest, they reject it and acceptance of Tagalog as the national language becomes difficult. Using English is more acceptable to them than Tagalog.

This is based on my perception from my interactions with them and how you see these things objectively.

The resistance of people from the Visayas or Mindanao on Tagalog as the national language should be taken as a subtle protest on how they perceive the Tagalogs. The latter often ridicule the Visayans on how they speak some words, thus consequently, they have this feeling of resentment against the Tagalogs and its imposition as the national language. As a protest, they reject it and acceptance of Tagalog as the national language becomes difficult. Using English is more acceptable to them than Tagalog.

This is based on my perception from my interactions with them and how you see these things objectively.

I've had indian and pakistani friends in College actually so I am aware of the difference. India's national and more widely spoken language is HINDI, they do have punjabi and such. Hindi is also similar to Pakistani's Urdu which is Pakistani's main language, there is a very small difference between the two. When one say Quia hale in hindi, it's the same Quia hale in Urdu where you would respond "ti gue" it basically means I'm fine.

They do have national pride because they adhere to their national tradition and custom and they try not to have their beliefs broken by western influences which the filipinos mostly don't have. They still communicate with one another from one region to another in HINDI and not in english inspite the fact that english is also a language for commerce in India, similar to it. The Indian people never have any problem with the Hindi language and they are not fighting to have that changed because they keep that language spoken within their homes and to felllow contrymen which is what we don't have. We fight about a language which really isn't really harming other regions except being taught to people to learn tagalog because its the national language, it was never meant to change the language every region spoken at home because again, otherwise, there would be a law banning regional languages to be spoken at home. We do have "Kundiman" being sung in Bisaya right? it means, tagalog aren't really killing the bisaya nor any other dialects in the Philippines. The Muslim is allowed to teach their writing in Islamic schools and be taught with anything arabic or their native tongue, other wise, Islam isn't allowed to be practiced in the Philippines whatsoever...

Added: I've checked India's profile and found out that "Hindi" is infact the official language of India or they refer it as a the Union, Hindi is being spoken by 75% or it's population. English is exclusively used in business and administration , English is the "subsidiary official language"

No, we don't sing kundiman though we have songs in bisayans that are similar to tagalog kundiman.

and india knows too well that if they start declaring one language as a national language, there would be trouble. so they refrain from declaring a national language. instead they have hindi and english as official language or working language of government.

if you read this blog written by an indian, you would realized that it reflects the same sentiments we have here in the philippines.

http://thenathans.blogspot.com/2005/12/india-hindi.html

http://thenathans.blogspot.com/2006/01/india-hindi-contd-part-2.html

...India is a country with Unity and Diversity and not Uniformity. Imposition of Hindi, is the root cause for the fading away of the rest of Indian cultures.

One language in the country is given a higher preference than the rest of the languages, and the speakers of that language have an undue advantage than the rest.

All countries with the above situation have broken into Civil wars, Sri Lanka, Unified Pakistan.

In India, this does not happen because, there is no One-on-One, that is Hindi is not pitted against any single language. It is pitted against a group of languages and cultures. This leads to group effect.

A Bengali feels that, we are not the only one at the disadvantage; we have Tamil, Kannadigas, and Telugu speakers. And vice-versa. Thus the impossition of Hindi has gone unchallenged, which would not have been the case if there are only two languages in the Countyy, Hind and XYZ.

The Department of Official Languages site says that, if I need to communicate with the federal government of My country, then I can not do it in My mother tongue, but will have to learn the language of some other part of the country or some other part of the world.

To be precise, for me, on the language front, the only difference between before and after Aug 15. 1947, is that I have been given an option of being a slave of. Now, I can choose my master, either English or Hindi.

I am proud of belonging to India, the sense of Indian is tied deeply in me. I consider myself with no less or no more Indianness than any body from any other part of the Union.
At the same time, I do not approve of Hindi being imposed on me. India IS NOT EQUAL to Hindi. Learning and accepting Hindi is not a pre-requisite for being a true Indian.

Hindi is as alien to me as Arabic or Spanish, and if at all I learn Hindi it should be 100% only out of choice.
Putting it the other way, Hindi is as alien to me as my mother tongue is to a native Hindi speaker....

Hindi is as alien to me as 'Spanish or Arabic Oriya or Urdu' is, or as alien as Tamil is to a native Hindi speaker.

Now, how many of us have heard Hindi Natives saying, “When you talk to somebody in Chennai/Tamilnadu in Hindi, they don’t respond you”. They point is why would somebody come to Chennai and talk to a Autokaarar or a koolikaarar in Hindi?

How does it feel, when is say, 'When you go to delhi/lucknow and talk to a cab guy in Tamil, he does not respond!" ?? Wierd.??

Then,why do i get worked up when people come to me at bangalore/chennai and say 'Hindi is our national language, and you will have to learn it'.

To answer this, we have to go to 1965.
Post independence, the only goal of the students in South[esp Tamils] was to get a central government job. The percentage of Civil servants and in general the percentage of employees in the central govenment offices stand as testimony, though i donot have exact numbers.

All the recruitment exams and interviews were conducted in English. Then out of the blue, came the announcement , 'it is 15 years since the constitution came to force and so, from now on, only Hindi will be the medium replacing english'. This meant,
1. There is an undue advantage for all the native Hindi speakers
2. The people of south had to learn Hindi. Their English skills were not recognized.

It was an indirect message from the North saying "Either learn Hindi and compete with Native Hindi speakers to survive, or just perish"...

Consider this situation,
1960s,
we were told "Learn Hindi"
"Why"
"That is the only way you will survive. Learn Hindi and compete in a one sided playing field, or Perish"
We took the threat head on. Worked hard, created opportunities and made those who gave us the option of 'Perish', to come down for a living.

2000s.
we are told "Learn Hindi"
"Why"
"Because it is our official language, you will have to respect... blah blah blah..."
What do you think we will do.??, laugh about it and make a post on it in the blog. :)

ps: I would want to make it clear , I do not have anything against Hindi as a language. Also that, I r/w/t/u fluently in Hindi, as much as i do in Kannada, Malayalam, French or Samskritam, also i had put a rough draft of this post much before the comments of the part 1 of the post was made, so this is not written in a direct response to any of the comments.



read the comments and you will see something parallel to the sentiments that we are posting on this thread.

http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/00/0702.html

I've had indian and pakistani friends in College actually so I am aware of the difference. India's national and more widely spoken language is HINDI, they do have punjabi and such. Hindi is also similar to Pakistani's Urdu which is Pakistani's main language, there is a very small difference between the two. When one say Quia hale in hindi, it's the same Quia hale in Urdu where you would respond "ti gue" it basically means I'm fine.

They do have national pride because they adhere to their national tradition and custom and they try not to have their beliefs broken by western influences which the filipinos mostly don't have. They still communicate with one another from one region to another in HINDI and not in english inspite the fact that english is also a language for commerce in India, similar to it. The Indian people never have any problem with the Hindi language and they are not fighting to have that changed because they keep that language spoken within their homes and to felllow contrymen which is what we don't have. We fight about a language which really isn't really harming other regions except being taught to people to learn tagalog because its the national language, it was never meant to change the language every region spoken at home because again, otherwise, there would be a law banning regional languages to be spoken at home. We do have "Kundiman" being sung in Bisaya right? it means, tagalog aren't really killing the bisaya nor any other dialects in the Philippines. The Muslim is allowed to teach their writing in Islamic schools and be taught with anything arabic or their native tongue, other wise, Islam isn't allowed to be practiced in the Philippines whatsoever...

Added: I've checked India's profile and found out that "Hindi" is infact the official language of India or they refer it as a the Union, Hindi is being spoken by 75% or it's population. English is exclusively used in business and administration , English is the "subsidiary official language"

No, we don't sing kundiman though we have songs in bisayans that are similar to tagalog kundiman.

and india knows too well that if they start declaring one language as a national language, there would be trouble. so they refrain from declaring a national language. instead they have hindi and english as official language or working language of government.

if you read this blog written by an indian, you would realized that it reflects the same sentiments we have here in the philippines.

http://thenathans.blogspot.com/2005/12/india-hindi.html

http://thenathans.blogspot.com/2006/01/india-hindi-contd-part-2.html

...India is a country with Unity and Diversity and not Uniformity. Imposition of Hindi, is the root cause for the fading away of the rest of Indian cultures.

One language in the country is given a higher preference than the rest of the languages, and the speakers of that language have an undue advantage than the rest.

All countries with the above situation have broken into Civil wars, Sri Lanka, Unified Pakistan.

In India, this does not happen because, there is no One-on-One, that is Hindi is not pitted against any single language. It is pitted against a group of languages and cultures. This leads to group effect.

A Bengali feels that, we are not the only one at the disadvantage; we have Tamil, Kannadigas, and Telugu speakers. And vice-versa. Thus the impossition of Hindi has gone unchallenged, which would not have been the case if there are only two languages in the Countyy, Hind and XYZ.

The Department of Official Languages site says that, if I need to communicate with the federal government of My country, then I can not do it in My mother tongue, but will have to learn the language of some other part of the country or some other part of the world.

To be precise, for me, on the language front, the only difference between before and after Aug 15. 1947, is that I have been given an option of being a slave of. Now, I can choose my master, either English or Hindi.

I am proud of belonging to India, the sense of Indian is tied deeply in me. I consider myself with no less or no more Indianness than any body from any other part of the Union.
At the same time, I do not approve of Hindi being imposed on me. India IS NOT EQUAL to Hindi. Learning and accepting Hindi is not a pre-requisite for being a true Indian.

Hindi is as alien to me as Arabic or Spanish, and if at all I learn Hindi it should be 100% only out of choice.
Putting it the other way, Hindi is as alien to me as my mother tongue is to a native Hindi speaker....

Hindi is as alien to me as 'Spanish or Arabic Oriya or Urdu' is, or as alien as Tamil is to a native Hindi speaker.

Now, how many of us have heard Hindi Natives saying, “When you talk to somebody in Chennai/Tamilnadu in Hindi, they don’t respond you”. They point is why would somebody come to Chennai and talk to a Autokaarar or a koolikaarar in Hindi?

How does it feel, when is say, 'When you go to delhi/lucknow and talk to a cab guy in Tamil, he does not respond!" ?? Wierd.??

Then,why do i get worked up when people come to me at bangalore/chennai and say 'Hindi is our national language, and you will have to learn it'.

To answer this, we have to go to 1965.
Post independence, the only goal of the students in South[esp Tamils] was to get a central government job. The percentage of Civil servants and in general the percentage of employees in the central govenment offices stand as testimony, though i donot have exact numbers.

All the recruitment exams and interviews were conducted in English. Then out of the blue, came the announcement , 'it is 15 years since the constitution came to force and so, from now on, only Hindi will be the medium replacing english'. This meant,
1. There is an undue advantage for all the native Hindi speakers
2. The people of south had to learn Hindi. Their English skills were not recognized.

It was an indirect message from the North saying "Either learn Hindi and compete with Native Hindi speakers to survive, or just perish"...

Consider this situation,
1960s,
we were told "Learn Hindi"
"Why"
"That is the only way you will survive. Learn Hindi and compete in a one sided playing field, or Perish"
We took the threat head on. Worked hard, created opportunities and made those who gave us the option of 'Perish', to come down for a living.

2000s.
we are told "Learn Hindi"
"Why"
"Because it is our official language, you will have to respect... blah blah blah..."
What do you think we will do.??, laugh about it and make a post on it in the blog. :)

ps: I would want to make it clear , I do not have anything against Hindi as a language. Also that, I r/w/t/u fluently in Hindi, as much as i do in Kannada, Malayalam, French or Samskritam, also i had put a rough draft of this post much before the comments of the part 1 of the post was made, so this is not written in a direct response to any of the comments.



read the comments and you will see something parallel to the sentiments that we are posting on this thread.

http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/00/0702.html

^^ Does India still have the Caste System?

^^ Does India still have the Caste System?

^^ Though it's frowned upon and generally not practiced in these modern times, the caste system is still deeply ingrained in Indian society (and as well in the other South Asian nations). Old habits die hard, I guess.

^^ Though it's frowned upon and generally not practiced in these modern times, the caste system is still deeply ingrained in Indian society (and as well in the other South Asian nations). Old habits die hard, I guess.

^^ from what i know, caste system still exist in india.

^^ from what i know, caste system still exist in india.

How do we know? We don't really live in india to know whole heartedly what is going on in India itself...

What you posted there seems more like a blog of individuals on internet, it does not necessarily represent the whole india itself, just how we are here in SSC thread, it's based on an individual opinions and personal preference.

I guess that what happens when there are more than one language being spoken to in a country. Now, since this is the case. Let's say for instance we just use english as an official language to stop all these fighting about languages. Should we just use it and let all the indigenous dialects and languages die all together? Because, with one language alone since the filipinos are very regionalistic, we have our own separate ways and beliefs aside from difference of language we speak we are now currently arguing about. Will all these opinions would stop? That is especially that Imperial Manila is more than just imposition of tagalog to other regions but it also the distribution of economy or wealth. Will Manila still stop neglecting other regions? I think they wouldn't.. We would still be fighting like how we are not, using english as a medium for communication and arguements... Would Imperialist Manila would stop being Imperialist???

And yes BTW, I know bisayan doesn't really necessarily sing kundiman because it's a term in tagalog, but I can't find the right term for a bisayan folk lore songs . I know there are old bisayan songs because sometimes they would also play it in Manila in old movies if they really have to play it just like the ilocano's "dandan soy, irog ko ti amian" I think what it was...

How do we know? We don't really live in india to know whole heartedly what is going on in India itself...

What you posted there seems more like a blog of individuals on internet, it does not necessarily represent the whole india itself, just how we are here in SSC thread, it's based on an individual opinions and personal preference.

I guess that what happens when there are more than one language being spoken to in a country. Now, since this is the case. Let's say for instance we just use english as an official language to stop all these fighting about languages. Should we just use it and let all the indigenous dialects and languages die all together? Because, with one language alone since the filipinos are very regionalistic, we have our own separate ways and beliefs aside from difference of language we speak we are now currently arguing about. Will all these opinions would stop? That is especially that Imperial Manila is more than just imposition of tagalog to other regions but it also the distribution of economy or wealth. Will Manila still stop neglecting other regions? I think they wouldn't.. We would still be fighting like how we are not, using english as a medium for communication and arguements... Would Imperialist Manila would stop being Imperialist???

And yes BTW, I know bisayan doesn't really necessarily sing kundiman because it's a term in tagalog, but I can't find the right term for a bisayan folk lore songs . I know there are old bisayan songs because sometimes they would also play it in Manila in old movies if they really have to play it just like the ilocano's "dandan soy, irog ko ti amian" I think what it was...

How do we know? We don't really live in india to know whole heartedly what is going on in India itself...


I can safely assume it is still ongoing, if the Indian government has to resort to giving monetary rewards to those who marry below their castes, in order to encourage more intercaste marriages, which hopefully will lead to the dissolution of the system.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5346720.stm

How do we know? We don't really live in india to know whole heartedly what is going on in India itself...


I can safely assume it is still ongoing, if the Indian government has to resort to giving monetary rewards to those who marry below their castes, in order to encourage more intercaste marriages, which hopefully will lead to the dissolution of the system.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5346720.stm