In my usual fashion, I will emphasize that Raleigh is not known for its urban image outside downtown and the areas near the latter. However, it would be unfair to ignore the progress in creating more livable communities in areas further from the center. In a New Urbanist and semi-urban manner, several developments give us hope that some day we may be able to fix some of the errors of the past. There are large communities, especially in North Raleigh, that while nice and pleasant, they are way too suburban in character to be considered for review here (i.e. Brier Creek, Wakefield Plantation).

I really want to see this thread develop as a place for all of us to post photos and news pertaining to decent projects and communities in Raleigh (sans downtown). Let me start with a small list of the projects I consider important for the improvement of Raleigh's image outside the core of the city:
Soleil Center I - 47 floors; 4-star/4-diamond Westin hotel and ~50 condos.
Soleil Center II - 18 floors; mostly offices. Still in the planning stage.
3700 Glenwood - 5 floors; offices. Nothing of extreme urban nature, but a huge improvement to the previous office park image of that area.
Oberlin Court - A nice mixed-use infill project, although a major scale down from the original proposal, due to extreme NIMBYism.
New North Hills & Lassiter - Nice mixed-use replacement of semi-urban nature. This development has proven, beyond doubt, that even in a car-dependent city, people are willing to walk. Four mid-rise developments, including a 4-star hotel, will add to the areas semi-urban feel and pour more people to the streets of North Hills
North Hills East - A very promising mixed-use "community", semi-urban in nature. It will be an extension to New North Hills, but will function as a separate entity. Five mid-rises around 12 stories each will add to North Hills' growing skyline and create a mid-town feel. More residents and more shops under way.
Stanhope Village - Still a promise, but neither cancelled, nor neglected.
Brier Creek Village Center - Maybe the most urban project in the suburban Raleigh. Construction is under way.
Galleria - A mid-rise cluster, that will feature more than 600 residential units and many shops when completed. Currently stalled because of some major redesign, but still a "go".
Kidds Hill Project - Adjacent to Galleria and similar in character, although only one mid-rise is envisioned (an 8-9 story hotel).
High Park - Fitting 36 townhomes where they don't fit is an art. This development is certainly a nice little infill, in an area where you least expect it; near the intersection of Bernard Str and Whitaker Mill Rd.
Lake Raleigh/North Shore - A community envisioned as mostly residential, with close ties to the academic world of NCSU. Shops and restaurants have also been envisioned, but nothing concrete has been presented yet. The project was stalled due to some disagreement between the developer and the builder, but it will soon resume.
Bedford - Suburban in location and very misunderstood, Bedford is an excellent community that emphasizes the good sides of both urban and suburban. More of a New Urbanist approach, Bedford brings density and neighborhood connectivity to North Raleigh's ultra-suburban side.
Renaissance Park - A great redevelopment effort at the former location of Raleigh Municipal Airport, off of Tryon Rd, between Lake Wheeler and South Saunders streets. Facts: 215 acres and up to 1112 single-family homes, 250 condos and 338,000sf of retail space. This project should break ground around Fall of 2006.
Hillsborough Street renovation - Neglected for several years, this project promises to increase the importance of Hillsborough Street and the NCSU district corridor. Serving as the Western gateway to downtown, it may also become a very urban area of Raleigh.
Arena Area Plan - By far the greatest effort to organize the [future] growth in West Raleigh. So far, nothing to brag about, but the future looks promising.

Update on Brier Creek Village Center: Village concept forges ahead - Development aims for urban feel (http://www.northraleighnews.com/front/v-printer/story/2917826p-9366678c.html). The only rendering I have seen is the one below, so please don't judge the project exclusively from this image. As we all know, such projects can go either way, but from the sounds of it, we might have reached a milestone in the area's development, where more urban developments, even in small scale, are favored to suburban shopping centers. I will keep you posted, but I hope everyone keeps an eye on this project.

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/BrierCreek/M_BC_Rend_lrg.jpg

The rendering resembles Piedmont Town Center in South Park in Charlotte.

I am not surprised, given the developer is based out of Charlotte. I wonder if they will use the exact same design, or alter it significantly. It would not bother me to see a resemblance, but I'd rather see something different. I wish they had provided some more images, but I haven't seen anything new. The main difference will be the addition of townhomes and single family homes, but the arrangement of the buildings and the general layout will prove that the developers has something good in their minds. If I see one of those pseudo urban communities that have a "main street" and parking lots surrounding the development I will scream!!!

Raleigh-NC, id just like to thank you for your great effort to keep us all informed on the ongoing projects in Raleigh, please keep it up i really enjoy your posts. Dont spread yourself to thin man!

Thanks, emutiny!!! It is a bid hard to create an ultimate list of projects, but if we all pull together as a team we'll manage to paint a complete picture of what Raleigh is and will be in the nearest future. It is always refreshing to know that along with the sprawlers, we get a few nice projects to offset the damage. I know as a fact that there are some nice proposals out there and all we have to do is find them and present them here.

If the Brier Creek Village resembles the above rendering, I'll be shocked. I have a bad feeling that we're going to get a poorly laid out area which resembles the rest of the poorly designed areas in BC.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be very happy with the above rendering, I'm just not holding my breath.

The best way to cope with anticipation is to lower the expectations. However, if all the rumors I've heard are correct, this is going to be as urban as it can be for that area, and something to be proud of. Is it going to be urban in a traditional way? Doubtful, but nevertheless a huge improvement over what we've seen so far outside downtown, especially in the Brier Creek area. You can see more in the documents below:

http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_95856_0_0_18/CP-Brier_Creek_Village_Center_Small_Area_Plan-Master_Plan-Map.pdf

http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_95850_0_0_18/CP-Brier_Creek_Village_Center_Small_Area_Plan-Parks_Greenway-Map.pdf

http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_95849_0_0_18/CP-Brier_Creek_Village_Center_Small_Area_Plan-Text.pdf

I must admit I have only browsed quickly through the last one, but the maps in the first two documents should provide a great deal of information. I anticipate this development to be a little separated from Brier Creek Parkway - meaning a buffer being present - but there will be a transportation line going through this community, which is encouraging. There is a huge question mark hanging above this development, however: While there are some landscape challenges, will we see the neighborhoods being well connected and providing easy access to the main corridors? I can see most of this "village" having a buffer to separate the proposed buildings/homes from the highways (I-540 and Aviation Pkwy), but how bad is it going to look, overall? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I figured some of you might be wondering about the progress of Soleil Center. This past week I had an opportunity to take a few photos and I would like to share them with you. Nothing special. What is missing is the 5-story extension, now a big pile on the South of the main tower. No longer an eyesore :)

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/DSC_0599m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/DSC_0595m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/DSC_0596m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/DSC_0597m.jpg

Not exactly the latest and freshest photos, but nothing has changed much in the landscape since then, so let me share my latest images of Oberlin Court.

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/OberlinCourt/DSCF3925m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/OberlinCourt/DSCF3926m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/OberlinCourt/DSCF3931m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/OberlinCourt/DSCF3933m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/OberlinCourt/DSCF3934m.jpg

I am definitely more anxious about Phase II because it will block the ugliness of that parking deck [eyesore] built during Phase I; I am sure the nearby NIMBYs will be kicking themselves for resisting the original Oberlin Village proposal :bash:

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/OberlinCourt/DSCF3937m.jpg

High Park is a small cluster of 36 townhomes, just North of the intersection of E. Whitaker Mill Rd and Bernard Str. It will be similar to St. Mary's Street Townhomes development, for those familiar with the latter. Here are a few photos taken not too long ago. For link to the location, click here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=raleigh,nc&ll=35.808617,-78.630813&spn=0.006578,0.013561&t=h).

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/Highpark/DSCF4259m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/Highpark/DSCF4255m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/Highpark/DSCF4256m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/Highpark/DSCF4257m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/Highpark/DSCF4258m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/Highpark/DSCF4264m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/Highpark/DSCF4265m.jpg

Unfortunately, the way Raleigh has been developed leaves no room for completely urban (re)developments (i.e. Southside in Greensboro). I expect some strange arrangement of the townhomes, but a far cry from the suburban way of doing things. I would call this a semi-urban project. If I am not mistaken, 4-5 houses were demolished to make room for this development, therefore there is a huge increase in density. Hopefully, these townhomes will attract further developments along Bernard Str.

Ive been by the site alot recently as im working in a neighborhood off glenwood this week. When are they going to tear that hotel down? Talk about an eyesore! Do you know if they are going to implode it or tear it down with the ol' wrecking ball?

To the best of my knowledge, they will tear it apart slowly, which rules out implosion. I would not miss an implosion, but I am afraid there will be nothing like that happening. My guess is, it is too close to other buildings. The old convention center was sunken and nothing nearly as high as this mid-rise - it is 12 stories tall at its highest elevation.

To the best of my knowledge, they will tear it apart slowly, which rules out implosion. I would not miss an implosion, but I am afraid there will be nothing like that happening. My guess is, it is too close to other buildings. The old convention center was sunken and nothing nearly as high as this mid-rise - it is 12 stories tall at its highest elevation.

Thats too bad....I was looking forward to some more of your X-Files Pictures :runaway:

:lol:
Don't you worry, I will find a way to produce some X-Files photos for you ;)

Did you guys read about the Forty/Wade complex? It is part of the Arena Small Area Plan and quite frankly I thought it was going to be another sprawler. After looking at the site plan image that the News & Observer included in the printed version of the article Raleigh panel endorses Forty/Wade complex (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/v-print/story/423101.html), I became a bit more optimistic. Unfortunately, the bulk of the site, where the residences will go, shows nothing about the density and urban feel that may, or may not go there. The initial evaluation of this development is positive, but time will tell. Whenever you hear about Preston Development building something, run as far away as you can. Great SUBURBAN quality, and nothing urban, whatsoever. Hopefully, they realized this is Raleigh and not Cary and decided to go with something better.

The article offers some facts about this project, including the requested amendment to include more residential development. The proposed hotel could stand as tall as 10 stories (not bad for that section of Raleigh), but the rest of the buildings will be low-rises, as high as 4 floors.

Original plan: 700 apartments, 1.2 million sf of office space and 225,000sf of shops and restaurants.
New plan: 900-1800 homes and apartments, a 300-room hotel, 500,000sf of office space and 200,000sf of shops and restaurants.

It is a bit early to judge this project. As I mentioned earlier, the initial site plan shows some promise, but nobody can tell what Preston Development may do to mess things up. It is entire up to the city officials to demand something more urban in return for allowing more residential units... which is not bad, anyway. The City of Raleigh has a few interesting documents online y'all might like to check:

http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Planning/Plans_in_Review/2005/Plan_Submittal_Maps_by_Type/Master_Plan/MP-002-05.pdf

http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Planning/Plans_in_Review/2005/Planning_Commission_Public_Hearing/MP-002-05_Certified_Recommendation.pdf

http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Planning/Rezoning_Cases/2005/Z-054-05/Z-054-05_Staff_Report.pdf

http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Planning/Plans_in_Review/2006/Planning_Commission_Public_Hearing/MP-002-05_Certified_Recommendation.pdf

Please share your thoughts and comments. Do you think this may turn into something great for West Raleigh? With proximity to the arena being a major plus, I would anticipate more entertainment, hotel and retail space to be built, but this project may encourage additional development around there.

It would be nice if the buildings ended up a bit higher. Hopefully, sales of the condos will be swift, and the developer will add some additional height.

Either way, I hope the buildings resemble more of an urban enviroment, and not the typical suburban apartment sprawls.

I read your entry from the N&O. They headed in the right direction. I said afew years back that they needed to develop that area around the arena...That's why the CIAA left...nothing was there...nothing.

I agree with both of you. Naturally, I will take some really urban 4-stories over some suburban mid-rises, but a cluster of taller mid-rises laid out in an urban fashion would not hurt. Further development may allow the arena to reach its full potential in the future, so I am looking forward to seeing this project move along. One of the concerns I have is the flood zone, on which some of the development may sit. This could force Preston Development to create a more suburban, low-density section near Edwards Mill Rd, with the higher density appearing further to the West. I could not blame them for that, as long as the rest of the development is urban.

I read your entry from the N&O. They headed in the right direction. I said afew years back that they needed to develop that area around the arena...That's why the CIAA left...nothing was there...nothing.

Imagine hockey teams and wrestlers impressions of raleigh visiting the rbc center! Any development in the area would be great, I agree there is NOTHING out there even though it is closer to some stuff then it seems. I hate middle of nowhere arenas, Raleigh could have used some advice from charlotte, one thing i love about charlotte is the NBA and NFL arenas right downtown.

check out the arizona cardinals new stadium, its location seems even worse then RBC.

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/phoenix_30_08_2005_1.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/phoenix_30_08_2005_1.jpg/view/)

Well, I don't too much particularly care for BOA Stadium's location; I think for something taking up that much land and hosting less than 15-20 games/year in a city the size of Charlotte, it should have been located adjacent to downtown but not within the loop, IMO. But the Bobcats arena has a great location.

And the Cardinals stadium location is absolutely horrific.

Imagine hockey teams and wrestlers impressions of raleigh visiting the rbc center! Any development in the area would be great, I agree there is NOTHING out there even though it is closer to some stuff then it seems. I hate middle of nowhere arenas, Raleigh could have used some advice from charlotte, one thing i love about charlotte is the NBA and NFL arenas right downtown.

check out the arizona cardinals new stadium, its location seems even worse then RBC.

http://s2.supload.com/thumbs/default/phoenix_30_08_2005_1.jpg (http://s2.supload.com/free/phoenix_30_08_2005_1.jpg/view/)

The difference between the RBC center and the new Cardinals stadium is that there has been approved plans for all kinds of development even before the Cardinals ground breaking.I moved back to the east coast from the Peoria and Glendale area about 2 years ago and believe me...That arial view is deceiving. That just happens to be an undeveloped 1-2 square miles trapped just inside of the 101 freeway.Within 2-3 years you will not see an open area there.

Arizona has seen some HUGE growth in real estate. I was reading an article, several months ago, and if anyone thinks of Raleigh as a sprawling mess, he/she should get a clue... We are talking about tons of sprawl in areas where landscape allows it. The area around RBC Center carries tremendous potential for redevelopment, but there isn't anything to dictate the quality of it, be it urban, or suburban. On the North side the potential ceases to exist because of farms that will not be developed for a VERY long time and William Umstead State Park, therefore we have a limited space to work with. Let me share a couple of aerial images (web finds):

http://www.ncdot.org/doh/preconstruct/biennial_awards/Award_photos/images/2004/RBC%20Center/RBCAerial.jpg

http://nhlfr.free.fr/actualites/dossiers/patinoires/raleigharena.jpg

Another piece of good news: the Feds approved Soleil Center - FEMA had to review this project due to its location in a flooding zone. N&O had an article, titled Soleil Center gets federal approval (http://www.northraleighnews.com/front/v-printer/story/2921559p-9369455c.html), where you can read more. By the way, Sunjay Mundra leaves the option of imploding the tower portion open... After all, we may get a chance to capture some more "explosive", X-Files/Apocalypse Now inspired images, so hang on, eastwestrob :lol:

Nice, real nice. I'm loving the latest updates. Raleigh is growing at a break neck pace in almost all new areas. With downtown finally taking the lead (as it should).

Sometimes it feels overwhelming, especially for the city officials, who I know for a fact get bombarded with new proposals, ideas and visions. If they could share 1/10th of what they see and hear about, we would be wondering if Raleigh could sustain the growth - we know it will ;)

Another piece of good news: the Feds approved Soleil Center - FEMA had to review this project due to its location in a flooding zone. N&O had an article, titled Soleil Center gets federal approval (http://www.northraleighnews.com/front/v-printer/story/2921559p-9369455c.html), where you can read more. By the way, Sunjay Mundra leaves the option of imploding the tower portion open... After all, we may get a chance to capture some more "explosive", X-Files/Apocalypse Now inspired images, so hang on, eastwestrob :lol:

Thats great news...I will not miss this implosion ...if it happens. I love the smell of napalm in the morning :runaway:

Looking at those images of the RBC Center...looks just like the old Charlotte Colisem from the air.

[QUOTE=Raleigh-NC]Arizona has seen some HUGE growth in real estate. I was reading an article, several months ago, and if anyone thinks of Raleigh as a sprawling mess, he/she should get a clue... We are talking about tons of sprawl in areas where landscape allows it. The area around RBC Center carries tremendous potential for redevelopment, but there isn't anything to dictate the quality of it, be it urban, or suburban. On the North side the potential ceases to exist because of farms that will not be developed for a VERY long time and William Umstead State Park, therefore we have a limited space to work with. Let me share a couple of aerial images (web finds):


I agree, it makes me wonder why no development has taken place sooner! The potential seems tremendous to me due to the location, how close it is to RTP and all.

I would think that Phoenix's status as one of the largest U.S. cities might have something to do with the fast pace of its growth; the city is still growing. Raleigh has just hit 350,000 residents, with Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary and RTP getting much of the Triangle's growth, too. The area around the arena simply fell in the "wrong" hands and stayed there for a while. Maybe it will turn out to be for the better, but for now we have to accept the status of that "district" as one of the sleepiest places in the city :( Once some serious development begins, we should expect a lot more. I think that development over there got stalled because of the anticipation for TTA's regional rail. The growth potential TTA's rail could bring is amazing, and if things go as planned, developers will respond with some denser developments and create easy access from the arena to the Fairgrounds station... I don't know, this is just a speculation on my part.

I would think that Phoenix's status as one of the largest U.S. cities might have something to do with the fast pace of its growth; the city is still growing. Raleigh has just hit 350,000 residents, with Durham, Chapel Hill, Cary and RTP getting much of the Triangle's growth, too. The area around the arena simply fell in the "wrong" hands and stayed there for a while. Maybe it will turn out to be for the better, but for now we have to accept the status of that "district" as one of the sleepiest places in the city :( Once some serious development begins, we should expect a lot more. I think that development over there got stalled because of the anticipation for TTA's regional rail. The growth potential TTA's rail could bring is amazing, and if things go as planned, developers will respond with some denser developments and create easy access from the arena to the Fairgrounds station... I don't know, this is just a speculation on my part.


Phoenix to my understanding added the most new jobs last year @ 106,000. new jobs. That should be an indication as to how fsat the area is growing. But one thing about Phoenix that is the same as Raleigh...for a large city like Phoenix they don't have much for a DT.

I have to admit, although I do not care much for linear patterns, I like Phoenix's skyline :)

I envision West Raleigh with having a High Point Road feel to it like Greensboro.
Edwards Mill Road needs to be developed just like that. Everything is right there at the Greensboro Coliseum: Koury Convention Center, Four Seasons Towne Centre Mall, all those open retail and restaurants streaming up and down High Point road is excellent. That is the type of development Raleigh needs around its Coliseum. The Coliseum area in G'Boror may not be the top choice places to shop or eat, but at least they have something there.

Good points, emjohnson2! The problem is that Edwards Mill Rd has certain "limitations" that prevent future developments from happening along its section between Duraleigh Rd and Wade Ave. Eventually, this may change, but not any time soon. However, a lot can be done for the area South of Wade Ave. Already, the city allowed some monstrosities to be built, so we need something solid and urban to offset the damage. The feel, however, should be similar to the area near Greensboro Coliseum, as you nicely put it.

This redevelopment plan has become a thorn on our city's vision. I do not have to say that both sides offer pros and cons, it should be obvious, but when it comes to considering the city's future, these sides need to be combined into one proposal that will offer the good of both worlds. Unfortunately, there are some stubborn people who think that dog parks and huge botanical gardens pay the bills and fight hard ANY proposal that includes urban neighborhoods, no matter how much open space and green is preserved.

In the past we have pretty much exhausted the topic of what should be done at the site of Dorothea Dix Campus, so I will spare you the trouble of re-reading the same stuff. I want to share the following article with you, in order to see the status of this project. N&O had an interesting piece, titled Lot of talk, little action on Dix site (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/v-print/story/425430.html), where you can see the paranoia of a few people, mostly members of The Friends of Dorothea Dix Park, a group that prefers to daydream than face reality - the financial aspect of the deal, at least.

After almost 6 years of planning the revitalization of Hillsborough Street, the city seems to be looking at this corridor as a vital component and finaly moves forward. Not much revealed in the following online update, but the video is worth it: Vote Kicks Hillsborough Street Renovation Into Gear (http://www.wral.com/news/8471520/detail.html).

The talks about swapping space between Harris Teeter and Eckerd have moved to the front burner. Cameron Village's management is considering the demolition of the building that is currently occupied by Eckerd and redevelop the entire block into a mixed-use project that will feature a new Harris Teeter, a parking deck and most likely condos. I know that in the video the residential part is mentioned as a possibility, but the idea is not new. The management/owners of Cameron Village have been talking about this for quite some time now. It is a bit early to speculate on whether it will happen, or how big the residential portion will be, but the very mention of it makes me feel good. Here is an online update with a nice video: Two Cameron Village Stores Plan Space Swap (http://www.wral.com/news/8470656/detail.html).

Finally, Kane is moving forward with the hotel portion of the New North Hills development. Nothing major in terms of height, which should be about 8 stories, but this is good news one way or another. N&O has an update: Hotel plans advance (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/v-print/story/429416.html). The number of rooms will be 229, down from the initially envisioned 240, as well as 10,000sf of convention space. The hotel is expected to break ground [officially] as early as next month. Since The Lassiter (the 7-story condo building, to the North) has already been announced officially, and the site has been prepared, I expect the final plans for the two mid-rises facing Six Forks Rd to be soon announced. A friend of mine who works for the developer's architect says they already have the final renderings, so it should be a matter of time before Kane tells us what he has in mind for the final phase of New North Hills. I find it hard to believe that North Hills East will break ground before the western section is completely done.

This entire part of town is really exciting. The area from Glenwood Road to Six Forks within 1/2 mile of the beltline is really started to flourish. The new Rennaissance Hotel should look great fronting I-440. Kane has done a great job thus far in my opinion. It appears that he is going to redevelop the area just inside the beltline at Six Forks too.

I am a little disappointed that plans have stalled for the Kidd Hill project to the rear of Crabtree Valley Mall. Hopefully, this area will again come alive once the Soliel Center gets started. I haven't heard anything for a few weeks, but the hill across from Homewood Suites (where Crossroads Restaurant was) has been submitted for rezoning. Apparently there are some big plans for this land as well. Anyone unfamiliar with the area, this land is directly behind Crabtree Valley Mall and sits a top a bluff. I am not sure the elevation, but anything built there would give an impressive appearance due to it's dramatic height difference from the surrounding area.

I think that you are talking about Galleria as the project that is currently stalled. After a great looking concept, the developer had to change plans for the underground parking, due to steel prices having skyrocketed. However, there is another project, adjacent to Galleria, and that is a "go" as far as I know. I have seen the plans for the Kidds Hill redevelopment, or whatever it will finally be called, and it looks good :okay: The only tall structure is the 8-9 story hotel, but the rest of the development looks cool, too. My guess is that Galleria has been stalled due to all those nearby developments, most of them suburban in nature. Big residential communities moved forward, filling up pretty fast, to my surprise, while the developers of Galleria were sitting on their rear end. While not canceled, Galleria will need some "good" people to pull it off. I think that Kidds Hill and Soleil Center will help.

As for Kane's redevelopment efforts, he has done more than expected to bring the place back to life. I went to Crabtree Valley Mall yesterday, but it was closed, due to Easter celebration, except for Sears and the restaurants. Then, I went to North Hills and while almost all retail destinations were closed, the place had very good pedestrian activity. We shopped at Foot Locker, ate lunch at Fox & Hound, had an ice cream at Ben & Jerry's and saw Scary Movie 4 (recommended, for big laughs) at the movie theater. Hey, that's not bad for an Easter Day :)

I expect the final plans for the two mid-rises facing Six Forks Rd to be soon announced..

I thought the City of Raleigh Disapproved of this idea? They didn't like the proximity of the buildings to Six Forks, if I remember right.

I had heard that too and I think it is a big mistake if true. I don't understand how the proximity to Six Forks matters considering there are other building fronting Six Forks directly across the street. I hope they do get built because the parking lot just does not look good.

i think that as a result of north hills and its popularity, the OTB neighborhoods around it, North hills, Lakemont, quail hollow, and Cedar Hills, will see a similar growth pattern that has occured ITB. like ITB, smaller homes will be bought and redone, land prices will increase, and overall home prices increase dramatically. With North Hills East being planned to border Lakemont, the increase will only be more dramatic. this is a double edged sword however because it make the neighborhoods a little more attractive, but it will lead to more and more expensive residences.

The city disapproved the placement of the towers closer to the street, but not the buildings. There are two possible outcomes: 1) shorter mid-rises near the street, or 2)taller mid-rises ~136ft from Six Forks Rd. Either way, Kane will replace those parking lots with something much better. My friend did not give me any specifics, but I anticipate the buildings to be between 7 and 9 floors. There is one more possibility, which is strictly my own speculation, and nothing more. Kane may wait until North Hills East gets redeveloped in order to bring his great contribution to the table, at a later time, and convince the city to allow taller structures closer to Six Forks Rd. If I were Kane I would try to persuade the city by reminding how much effort I put behind the entire redevelopment and ask them to rezone my property to match my vision - it is a reasonable proposal, after all. If the neighborhood is not fanatically against it, I see no reason why the city should oppose it.

As Rufus said, such redevelopment efforts may increase the real estate value of the nearby homes. It is a very good and accurate observation, but I am not as concerned because the value will also increase because on the demand. If people want to live around there, they will pay top dollars, otherwise they will bargain. Let's keep in mind that nearby homes are already selling for big money. Yesterday, I drove by many of those neighborhoods and I can see where the value is. Besides the on-going development in New North Hills, there are established neighborhoods, where houses get sold soon after the "For Sale" sign is placed on their yard. The neighborhoods to the East, and North of the future North Hills East may need a little help in catching up with the rest of the area... or so it feels to me. I have seen several homes that could be purchased and replaced with something "better". They may not be decrepit, but they will soon outlive their usefulness in terms of architecture. The density is not as bad, but I can see developers buying several properties and adding some density to the area.

A prime example is Ramblewood, to the South-West quadrant of the Six Forks Rd/I-440 intersection. Kane is planning a realtively high-end townhome/condo community, which will replace an apartment complex, if I am not mistaken. Knowing how many apartment units exist in Raleigh, I won't mourn for the loss of that complex - I mean no offense to the people who live in those apartments, of course; a friend of mine used to live there. This community will most definitely "help" to keep the value of the area high, but then again this is inevitable, given the proximity to some really expensive homes. I would definitely love to see some more affordable [new] houses built around North Hills... possibly something less than $300,000.

Got some news... good news!!! Those of you who missed the great opportunity to take a few photos during the [former] convention center demolition, will have a chance to capture another implosion, this time a much larger one :) According to WTVD-11 story (http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=4104024), the former Sheraton Hotel in Crabtree Valley will be imploded in order to make room for the Soleil Center. Although not mentioned here, and if I was informed right, the implosion will take place on May 7th, so get ready!!!

Also for Crabtree Valley, there is a piece of good news concerning one of the two Kidds Hill proposals (Kidds Hill and Galleria). According to N&O's article, titled Two big projects still alive (http://www.northraleighnews.com/front/v-printer/story/2932852p-9376779c.html), there will be rezoning request on May 2nd. I am not certain about which of the two projects the hearing will take place, but I am happy, anyway.

Got some news... good news!!! Those of you who missed the great opportunity to take a few photos during the [former] convention center demolition, will have a chance to capture another implosion, this time a much larger one :) According to WTVD-11 story (http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=4104024), the former Sheraton Hotel in Crabtree Valley will be imploded in order to make room for the Soleil Center. Although not mentioned here, and if I was informed right, the implosion will take place on May 7th, so get ready!!!

Also for Crabtree Valley, there is a piece of good news concerning one of the two Kidds Hill proposals (Kidds Hill and Galleria). According to N&O's article, titled Two big projects still alive (http://www.northraleighnews.com/front/v-printer/story/2932852p-9376779c.html), there will be rezoning request on May 2nd. I am not certain about which of the two projects the hearing will take place, but I am happy, anyway.

That is great news...However I am thinking that this will be another mid-town as I already consider North Hills a mid-town.

To be frank, and I must admit it feels weird, when we talk about mid-town, we may have to consider both North Hills and Crabtree Valley as one area, otherwise neither of them is large enough to qualify as mid-town. Of course, a few high-rises would have been enough to make one area get a lead over the other, but that is a different topic ;)

wrong thread

wrong thread

wrong thread

I gotta check out some of those websites and include the links to my website ;)

Then Soliel project just expanded with Soliel II. An 18-story proposal where Capital Bank now stands. It should help to balance out the effect of the 42-story tower. Total cost pf both projects $186 Million...all privately funded!

http://www.wral.com/news/8992260/detail.html

Then Soliel project just expanded with Soliel II. An 18-story proposal where Capital Bank now stands. It should help to balance out the effect of the 42-story tower. Total cost pf both projects $186 Million...all privately funded!

http://www.wral.com/news/8992260/detail.html

Ok...this may get out of hand....This makes 60 floors that DT Raleigh is missing out on. :eek2:

The more the better.

Ok...this may get out of hand....This makes 60 floors that DT Raleigh is missing out on. :eek2:

I beleive they will approve it. Accept it or not Raleigh is on its way to the sky, midtown or downtown.

This is the begining of the domino effect for the Crabtree area...since they already approved the 42 story tower anything shorter will get rubber stamped, otherwise the City Council will look like a bunch of hypocrites.

RaleighNC, I thoght you said that their next project was going to be downtown? So much for that.

It really bugs me how they like to proclaim that this development is all private money...but the reality is that if it were not for the $100s of millions of dollars invested in the area roads and sewer system...then Soleil would not be possible.

One last note...since this will be an 18 story office building it will be about 300ft tall.

I need to get up to Raleigh and check up on the pedestrian friendlyness of the Crabtree area...see if any improvments have been made since last year.

I need to get up to Raleigh and check up on the pedestrian friendlyness of the Crabtree area...see if any improvments have been made since last year.

There have been no changes to the pedestrian enviroment in the past 5 years.

I don't see a problem with the 'all private money' statement. Roads and sewers shouldn't be part of the equation, UNLESS the city is building sewers or roads to accomidate the development. If the city is, then it should be considerered public funds.

I was expecting something, but 18 stories is AWESOME!!! Yes, I would love to have those two buildings downtown, but I'd take these two, as proposed, over some freakin' office parks that still pop up in our area. Those companies that do not yet see downtown as the best place to do business, may have a better choice than the typical suburban crap: Soleil Center II!!! Great views of traffic and trees, too :lol:

Seriously, though, the fact that private investment is pouring closer to downtown than further out, should be a welcome move. The square footage is important, which I am not sure what will be, but I would be surprised to see anything above 180,000sf (my guess is 10,000sf per floor, or less). Soleil Group originally planned for some office space in Soleil Center I, but removed it from the final incarnation. Also, keep in mind that there are some speculations for the 3-story building that faces Creedmoor/Edwards Mill Rd, although nothing solid just yet. For those who will react negatively to the news I will say the following:

Consider the amount of office space added in the Glen Lake project.
An 18-story office building in Crabtree Valley, next to our new tallest, is a much better proposal than 3 6-story buildings scattered around (land preservation).
Soleil Center I will not just stick out like a sore thumb.
If the Galleria project is stalled, some of its office tenants may occupy the new tower.
Crabtree Valley is NOT far from downtown, and definitely NOT a suburb. Urban projects, density and heights do not belong exclusively in downtown.
North Hills East will contain far more office space, and so far the New North Hills has grabbed what was going to be the largest tenant of Reynolds Tower I. Crabtree Valley will lose some to downtown (some of RBC Centura's operations and Capital Bank).
If a company doesn't want to move downtown, then nobody can convince its management. A Crabtree Valley location may be a better option. Better to Crabtree Valley than RTP - a step closer to downtown ;)
Downtown Raleigh developers need to get their acts together and become more aggressive. If Soleil Group, a relatively speaking newcomer, can deliver the goods, then I cannot see why so many others can't. Customers don't just knock at the door.

This proposal caught me by surprise, but I am just as happy as I was about Soleil Center I. Assuming that the proposed tower will be built in a nice manner, I am all for it. Downtown Raleigh, North Hills and Crabtree Valley are real centers and have a great chance to form a triangle of activity that will bring new investments to the more central areas of Raleigh. As I said before, and I will stick to this belief, the next tallest for Raleigh is more likely to be delivered by Soleil Group, although this time will be in downtown. I have no problem with Soleil Group utilizing their existing property to the max, but I will be disappointed if they don't bring some of their investments to the core of the city, in the future. Success of Soleil Center I & II is crucial to see something bigger from them. At least, I will give the Soleil Group the benefit of the doubt.

@uptownliving: I said the next MAJOR project, in the sense of the new tallest, will be in Raleigh. An 18-story is a much smaller project when compared to Soleil Center I. As for the 300ft... I don't see where you get your numbers from. While this tower may be MOSTLY offices, there will be some condos, as previously announced by the developer. Even if all floors were commercial, the average height/floor is ~12ft, so 12ftx18floors=216ft... a far cry from 300ft, unless they put an 80ft+ spire. As for the "pedestrian friendliness", don't go into the trouble of driving here just for that, especially with the gasoline prices being so high these days. Pedestrian friendliness around Crabtree Valley will not improve, unless you bring more people to that area. It is happening now, but any visible improvements should not be expected for another 5-10 years, in my estimation. Bring the people, and the improvements will come. Soleil Group asks nothing from the city, including infrastructure improvements. They offer a lot more than they take from the city. The tax revenue, alone, is more than enough to justify the approval, so let's give them a break.

I like your train of thought Raleigh-NC. I'm all for it. It balances out Soliel 1 and it's a heck of a lot better than some suburban office park. I like infill of this nature more than sprawl, even if not in downtown.

I think the Crabtree high rises and North hills will gives Raleigh another place with some height instead of just 3 story buildings everywhere. It will be a nice effect when driving on the beltine to see some high rises sprouting up from Six Forks to Glenwood. Kind of an uptown for raleigh or as other have suggested a midtown. Land is at an premium there so upwards is now the best option for building in that area. Hopefully more projects will follow in this new "midtown" area.

I totally agree with both of you. The reality in Raleigh is this: downtown and suburban areas need some connectivity. Sure, there will be additional traffic - height of buildings has nothing to do with it - but areas like North Hills and Crabtree Valley can provide the bond between the center and the outskirts of the city. Downtown is not the only place that deserves an image boost and major investments. Sometimes, other areas become major players and attract the population. Soleil Center 1 will provide a new image for North Raleigh, while Soleil Center 2 will simply complement the first tower. I would expect at least one more big building to appear in this site - not by Soleil Group - but nothing to steal the glory from SoleilCenter 1. Once suburbanites recognize the elegance of the latter, they will desire more. In fact, I have heard people who used to think of Soleil Center 1 as too big for that location talking with enthusiasm about it. I am telling you, North Raleighites are waking up and beginning to recognize the importance of their area's image.

One thing that just crossed my mind. People who complain about traffic should actually think of the amount of additional vehicles that Site 1 and RBC Tower will pour into the streets, to and from downtown. If we had to think about this all the time, we would have never moved forward. Personally, I do not consider an 18-story tower a MAJOR project, enough to worsen things significantly. Sure, it is a nice size tower, but hardly something that compares to anything downtown is getting. Of course, time will tell.

Crazy Idea, but what the heck.
Here it is:
With all this traffic concern, it would be nice to see something like a street trolley proposed from Crabtree to Downtown via Glenwood Ave. I know that they have a median that they could use to lay the tracks as a designated right a way. Then all those people could get up and down Glenwood Ave with out getting in their car. You would have shopping, entertainment and housing all along that stretch.

I have suggested that before Cary, NC on another forum. I think some sort of light rail line running up Glenwood South to Crabtree would be ideal. I also think a spur line to Cameron Village/NC State would get a lot of use and possibly over to North Hills. It would be a great start to a possible regional system. I have a strong feeling that people in this area would use the rail line as opposed to the car.

I also have suggested such a trolley. I think a trolley/streetcar going from crabtree to DT, and crabtree to the TTA station at the fairgrounds (via edwards mill) would be perfect. providing access to RBC/arena area for N.Raleigh, and provide direct access for TTA patrons to arena and Crabtree.

I hate to say it, but residents from ITB Raleigh are more likely to use a light rail than anyone else in the Triangle at this point in time. I think it would be a great start to provide ridership support to the TTA. I can see 2 stops at Glenwood South, one at Glenwood Brooklyn, one at Five Points, one at Oberlin Road, one at Beckanna area, one at Crabtree.

^^
In fact, these are great ideas :okay: Their feasibility will depend on how the inside-the-Beltline NIMBYs - particularly in Five Points - will take this. [Sorry avery, but I have to partially disagree with you on the ITB crowds. Some of them will gladly use light rail, but there are way too many NIMBYs to let this happen.] My guess is that NIMBYs will revolt, even though there used to be a trolley ending at the NE of the intersection between St Mary's Str and Glenwood Ave... a very long time ago. Yours ideas make a lot of sense and I hope that the city will consider something similar.

I know that it is extremely hard for many people to accept the fact that Crabtree Valley and North Hills need to be "culturally" connected with downtown, but in my mind these areas are extremely important to the larger vision for our city's core. I have come to accept that the damage done in what once was Raleigh's suburbs cannot be totally undone, but nobody can claim that everything urban is always good either. Many people feel comfortable living in communities that blend density and suburban elements. After all, the crowds that flood Glenwood South, Warehouse District and City Market - and soon will do the same with Fayetteville Street - do not come exclusively from the central areas and/or more urban neighborhoods of Raleigh. Many North Raleighites venture around downtown, making it the success we view it as. I know several people from the Cameron Village and Five Points areas that know NOTHING about downtown, yet my neighbors - I live in North Raleigh - know a lot about what is going on in the core. I am not suggesting that there is a pattern, but I do get mad when people ignore the reality. Which is, Raleighites will walk and venture around the entertainment and shopping districts IF someone gives them the option. Anybody who wants to see proof can visit New North Hills, even though it is far from being complete.

Back to the trolley idea, I personally favor some sort of light rail/streetcar, although it may not be [financially] feasible at this point, due to landscape challenges (rolling hills). With some promotion, lots of cooperation and hard work, a connection between downtown, North Hills and Crabtree Valley may prove to be the greatest [transportation] initiative this city ever implemented. Assuming that the management at North Hills and Crabtree Valley does not object the riders to park their cars in the existing decks/lots, it will become a much traveled route. Do your shopping, enjoy a movie, have a nice dinner and enjoy a few drinks without having to get behind the wheel, in between. Sure, you can do all that in North Hills, but the variety isn't there... plus it can get boring after the first few times. Still, a great amount of cooperation must exist before this becomes reality.

You are right about the NIMBYs. ITB probably has the most of them in the entire area, but I also think that those who would use mass transit live here too. There are tons of young people and college students who would use this line. It is a tough balance to try and overcome...that is for sure.

Yes, I can agree with this. Sometimes I wonder what could kill the efforts for better transportation: Is it the ridership, or those who fight against it? :( I think that there is a shift, however, in the way things work in Raleigh. I live near Falls Village, at the intersection of Sandy Forks Rd and Falls of Neuse Rd, and I have seen an increase in people either walking around, waiting for the bus, or biking. By no means the numbers are enough to compare to true walkable communities, but you can witness the change. Several times in the recent past I have seen even business people walking to work/bus stops, wearing suits and snickers :lol: What I am trying to say is that there is hope for people to get on board and ride the train, IF the lines cover useful territory - Raleigh is notorious for doing the opposite - and if the frequency is good. One bus every 30 minutes is not really a good option.

I know I have said this in the past several times, but TTA doesn't seem to have a clue as to organize an event and get the people excited about the regional rail. As a perfect example you can take their presentation of the rail cars, in the Warehouse District, at the same time thousands of people were in the Fairgrounds for the Fair. If I were TTA I would have chosen to bring the model train to the Fair and let the kids get excited about it. Not just the kids, but thousands of other people would have had the unique opportunity to see with their own two eyes what regional rail could mean for them. If youngsters learn to love trains - not a very difficult task, anyway - many parents would use the regional rail, just to keep their kids happy.

One problem I have with the TTA was its proposed route. It is obvious that our major corridor in the Triangle is along I-40 to RTP and that is why the TTA planned their route accordingly. As bad as traffic is along I-40 and the sheer number of people who live in the areas proposed by the TTA, it makes sense to an outsider would think that this is the best initial plan.

The problem, as many of us in this area know, is the location of the stations and the huge inconvenience it would be for residents to use rail. Cary and Morrisville is a huge bedroom community. It could take residents there 15-20-30 minutes just to get to the station. By the time they would get to their place of employment, the headache of the snarling traffic on I-40 might be a better and quicker option.

I think the area needs to start a rail in areas that would benefit from it the most and who would more likely use it. Start with smaller lines from downtown to NC State to the RBC or have a line from Glenwood to Crabtree to North Hills to North Raleigh. Have a line from North Raleigh straight to RTP and RDU. If proven successful, tie all of the lines together for a more useful and comprehensive plan. I don't really know the solution, but I do think that it should start here in Raleigh and not all over this sprawling Triangle region.

You are right on the money :okay:

Now, allow me to play Devil's Advocate just a bit. If TTA started with Raleigh only, the rest of the Triangle would consider this favoritism. I think that TTA relies a lot upon Cherokee Investments, and other developers, to transform un(der)developed areas along the rail corridor and the proposed stations into high-density neighborhoods. This would provide the large numbers to make this project less of a money pit, or even a success. Running a line along the existing communities would make sense, but the density numbers won't help, not to mention the geography. As an example, try to connect North Hills and Crabtree Valley with light rail. It would be a Herculean task because of the rolling hills, not to mention that people would resist both the rail and the additional housing. As much as I do not like the route - it is of little use to me - I think that it is a good start and may ignite a new development pattern... a far more urban one.

As far as recommendations go, I don't know what to say any more :( Every route I envision has major geographic challenges. I can see a Downtown to Crabtree Valley route - NIMBY resistance aside for now - and I can see a line running from Strickland Rd & Creedmoor Rd to RBC Arena - I wonder how tough will be for a streetcar to go up the hill, on its way back towards Crabtree Valley, right after the Wade Ave intersection. This second line could also meet TTA's regional rail at one point, then continue along Hillsborough Str and end downtown. I don't know... I am sure there will be obstacles and complications, especially as the city wants to place several roundabouts along Hillsborough Str. Maybe this line can end in the Fairgrounds.

Oh, well!!! We can exhaust all the possibilities if we think for a while, but I don't see us making a difference. I know that the city is considering alternatives to TTA's proposal, in case the latter dies, and I am anxious to see what these plans include. After all, if we can't even put together some decent bus routes how can we expect to add light rail that will work and be expanded as necessary?

I agree with the location and length as questionable. Essentially TTA is building a commuter rail first not a light rail system. They are using DMU which are self propelled diesel units, not the traditonal light rail system which means to lay rail down the side of a street and attach the wires at the top and let the rail go. Every city that has a successful light rail have one thing in common, connectivity. It usaully comes in a form of a spoke type wheel design with the center connecting in downtown

As I have said before I live in Denver and 36,000 people a day ride the only line of light rail available right now. IT has been around for only 10 years and there projections at this point in time were only 15,000. 20,000 more than projected. In november the second line is going to open and it is expected that day 38,000 people will begin riding the light rail on the second line. So you have 74,000 people rding light rail. They are going with the spoke wheel design with all lines converging on the downtown area. Portland is the same way. Salt Lake City, whose population is very comparable to ours within 5,000 people have a light rail strecthing 19 miles. They now have gotten approval from the Feds to build a commutter rail 44 miles long.

TTA is doing it wrong. They are laying a commuter rail first instead of laying track down a road and building a light rail system first, just like CHarlotte's 9.6 mile stretch that got approved.

I agree with the both of you. I think a hub/spoke system would be much more successful in the beginning. Oh well...I guess we will see what will happen. I don't want to get worked up over mass transit anymore until we hear more from the TTA or community leaders. :)

Raleigh's growth is truly stunning; how does that affect you long-time Raleighans? (not sure if that is the term) Is it fun? Overwhelming? Both? Just curious.

I've called Raleigh home for a little over 8 years now. I don't fall into the category as a long-timer, but I've seen quite a bit of change in the short time I've been here. I love to see all that is happening here in Raleigh. I like the fact that we are shedding some of our small-town image and gaining a more cosmopolitan feel. Raleigh has a large enough population to warrant the image. I am a little unhappy with the rampant sprawl of the area though. I think all of the growth downtown and in "midtown" is really awesome. I can't wait until 2008. That is when most of our proposals are scheduled to be completed. Who knows what will happen in 2009/2010.

My first visit to Raleigh was on September of 1991. Visited again on February of 1992 and moved here the following month, on March of 1992. Many times before I shared a story from my second visit, when my mother and I stood on the "balcony" - later replaced by smaller windows - of our Holiday Inn Hotel room - currently the 20-story Clarion Hotel - overlooking the CBD. While she liked the place, overall, she asked me the question: "Do you really want to live here?" 14 years, and many visits later she realized how great my move was, and even though she misses the opportunity to walk around to all her favorite destinations, she likes the option to live a peaceful life when desired.

Raleigh's pace back in 1992 was slower, and the options were not as great. You could not find outdoors seating in the restaurants - not easily, at least - and talking about entertainment districts would be laughable, although there was a solid basis on which City Market built its reputation. Hillsborough Street counted, as well, but that area attracted mostly students. Since then, the pace picked up significantly, the dinning and entertainment options improved vastly and today we can look out the same window of Clarion Hotel I stared the CBD from, in 1992, and feel the difference.

Seeing the growth happening before our eyes is a mixed bag. Naturally, Raleigh is following the same destiny with ANY other growing city. That is, lots of suburban growth, cookie-cutter developments, shopping centers, etc. The urban renewal in the center is a reality we cannot ignore, but we are not yet there in terms of urban feel for [parts of] the rest of the city. As avery nicely put it, Raleigh is gaining a more cosmopolitan feel - not to be confused with big city feel - which is evident, and there is no turning back. The growth patterns are not exactly overwhelming, but I am sure that the city's Planning Dept must have faced many challenges. While urbanization in our case may involve denser, walkable communities, it won't be in the traditional sense, which is why some people take cheap shots against Raleigh, from time to time.

Where things have changed dramatically, however, is downtown. Man, it has already changed beyond recognition. If anyone walks around downtown and claims that he/she sees no activity, I will call that person blind. Not the 24/7 type of activity, but a decent flow of pedestrian traffic. Considering that we still need [probably] about a dozen new developments to fill some gaps in the areas that connect different districts, I will be unpleseantly surprised if DT Raleigh does not become a leader in urban renewal by 2010. When you visit the downtown areas of Asheville and Wilmington you get this positive vibe; people walk around and the pedestrian traffic is evident during most of the day and much of the evening. No other NC city, no matter how much we wish to promote our places, has achieved the pedestrian traffic that the two aforementioned cities have, IMHO. All 5 largest NC cities have sufferred from sprawl, but all of them are making a strong comeback. I think that Raleigh's changing image will become a success story.

The major points that make me happy about Raleigh's direction revolve around the following:

Downtown: The focus of the city officials has shifted to the center. The reopening of Fayetteville Street, the luring of larger employers and the creation of the Convention District are definitely on the top of the city's achievements.
Entertainment districts: Nothing new, but the city's focus on Glenwood South has given us hope for a "mixed-use future" in the city's center. Warehouse District and City Market are also on the rise.
Infills: Local and national developers have proven that they believe in DT Raleigh. Along with some public investments, the dollar amount committed to downtown stands around $1.5 billion, and soon will reach $2 billion. Most of those investments will go to infills.
Skyline: By 2008, Raleigh's skyline will be nearly doubled, which is hard to achieve in such a short period of time. It appears as if 2008 is the magic number for us, which is not bad, at all.
Denser/walkable communities: Downtown is not the only game in town. With suburban communities like Bedford taking the lead, our city has a great chance to avoid some of the mistakes of the past. A win-win situation for developers and residents. I have seen more people walking and bicycling lately than ever before... and this is not strictly because of the gasoline prices.
Urban centers: Much debate takes place among us about this topic. Some of us think big, some of us think small. Some others are in-between. With Crabtree Valley and North Hills competing for the midtown title, I doubt VERY seriously that Soleil Center 1 & 2 will be the last high-rises we see outside downtown. Having certain areas designated as urban centers - however suburban they may still appear to some - help us focus our efforts. It is an obvious return to more central locations, thus shifting the focus from today's true suburbs. Our city needs a strong image for itself, and not only for downtown. It would be a shame to identify an entire area with a shopping mall/center. Both Crabtree Valley and North Hills have taken a much better direction than before.
Transportation initiatives: This is an area where Raleigh is behind. It is a shame, but we can't fix problems by denying their existence. The good news is that certain initiatives carry the promise of better transportation for the future. TTA's regional rail is a good initiative, poorly executed and presented, but many of us are still hopeful.
My apologies for the lengthy response, but it would be hard for me to say it in just 2-3 paragraphs :lol:

Well you can call me a long time resident of Raleigh. Though I don't live there now,I was born there and lived there for the first 18 years of my life. I then left, found a wife, married, lived out west to only return back to Raleigh for three years, yet to leave again last year for a job, with determination to return next year. I love it in Raleigh. I compare the Raleigh's growth to a daughter growing up and becoming a beautiful young woman. It has taken many years but along the way she has added many desirable traits. She ALWAYS is coming in the top 5 in every "pageants"( "top places to" ... categories). Just look at her accolades. Year and year out, top THREE place to live in USA for over ten years now. I like it because if you want a small community you can live in the burbs but now Raleigh is taking on the big sister mentality to the burbs and is becoming the place to go for entertainment,fun, etc. I do not mind the growth because with out it Raleigh would still be a little girl.

interesting spin. :)

One problem I have with the TTA was its proposed route. It is obvious that our major corridor in the Triangle is along I-40 to RTP and that is why the TTA planned their route accordingly. As bad as traffic is along I-40 and the sheer number of people who live in the areas proposed by the TTA, it makes sense to an outsider would think that this is the best initial plan.

The problem, as many of us in this area know, is the location of the stations and the huge inconvenience it would be for residents to use rail. Cary and Morrisville is a huge bedroom community. It could take residents there 15-20-30 minutes just to get to the station. By the time they would get to their place of employment, the headache of the snarling traffic on I-40 might be a better and quicker option.

I think the area needs to start a rail in areas that would benefit from it the most and who would more likely use it. Start with smaller lines from downtown to NC State to the RBC or have a line from Glenwood to Crabtree to North Hills to North Raleigh. Have a line from North Raleigh straight to RTP and RDU. If proven successful, tie all of the lines together for a more useful and comprehensive plan. I don't really know the solution, but I do think that it should start here in Raleigh and not all over this sprawling Triangle region.

I really like your comment about a line directly from North Raleigh to RTP. This would eventually form a line shaped like a triangle. Who would have thunk it.

Y'all keep in mind that the demolition of the 12-story portion of what used to be Four Points Hotel - future site of Soleil Center 1 - is scheduled for May 7, at 6:00am. I am planning on attending - even my wife is interested :lol: - and I may end up on the parking deck of Crabtree Valley Mall, at the North/North-West tip. I think that the views from that deck may be great. Unless something changes, try to be there and celebrate! The former convention center did not provide a spectacular view when it was imploded, but this one should be major!!!

I bet I could hear it from my house.

Just BE there :lol: Maybe we can talk to the developers - assumming they will be present - about their future downtown proposals ;)

I have lived in Raleigh for half of my 22 years and it has come a long way. I remember when we (Raleigh/Durham) were named best place to live in America back in 1994. And it's been uphill since. The people came and haven't stopped coming, it's like people country and in some cases world wide woke up and realized. There's this place not too far south nor too far north. With a great local economy, top notch grade schools and colleges (Duke, NC State, UNC + others), top notch medical (Duke, UNC Hospitals, Wake Med+), great parks, low crime, and tons of other factors.

It is great living here. And everytime I think about relocating, I'm brought back down to earth by a new development or new accolade. Quality of live is among the best in the nation. And once we catch up with the growth, mainly in the school and transportation arena. It won't be long before the area is mentioned in the same breath with larger metros. In fact, I hear the triangle already in the same sentences with some other great cities.

The area is really starting to shine. And with the new Convention Center, New Airport Terminal and a couple of nice highrises cropping up by 2010 the brilliance only promises to increase. :)

I saw a 5 story structure being built today on durant rd. near falls of neuse. It looked weird because the entire facade was built and braced up before the framing.

^^ That's really weird!!!

One change: the demolition will take place around 7:30am, based on an email I got from the developer. They advised me to be there around 7am, though. Just in case y'all want to enjoy the show. The demolition of a 12-story building should be FAR more exciting than the convention center's.

tayfromnc, do not allow yourself to get the "skyscrapers blues". While Raleigh may not shoot for the sky just yet, we have a lot more going than we give our city credit for. Whatever you do, stick around and you will see more. I know that many places are enjoying more and better developments, but we are not far behind them. At least, we get many urban projects, and we will get a lot more... sooner than most of us think. Hey, we will have the tallest skyscraper outside the core, comparing to any other city in North Carolina. That must account for something :lol:

@ Raleigh-NC,..... do you ever go on Urbanplanet any? The Triangle has its own very active forum with over 10,000 posts.

More renderings of Soleil Center: http://soleilcenter.com

Willrusso, I visit UP regularly and I know several people from there; also, I was in the forumers meeting, recently. It is truly a great place to discuss Triangle issues - mostly Raleigh, anyway - and I encourage people to join UP and give their support. Since the Triangle section was reactivated and orulz became the moderator, the improvements were evident. The reasons why I no longer post there have to do with me being banned for idiotic reasons, although I had stopped posting before then. While this issue was mostly rectified - I appreciate that some people put a few good words for me - I no longer have the time to post in more than one forum. Besides certain restrictions I do not agree with, SSC has a Greek section (called Hellenic Agora) where I can participate and chat with some fellow Greeks. Plus, I can offer the Triangle a larger exposure by posting in a Southern forum, instead of a Triangle-specific section. That having been said, I cannot stand the amount of pessimism I see in UP. If I want to hear about scaling down a project that will actually be scaled up, I can go to UP and read some posts. As an example, try to follow the Reynolds Tower 1 discussion. I don't know where people are getting their info, but the speculations are sometimes horrible. By nature, I am an optimist, even when I get pissed over some projects, but I have yet to be proven wrong about my predictions and updates. I could not operate in an environment where people try get pessimistic. At least what I view as pessimistic. Still, the Triangle section of UP is great and the discussions are civilized. Kudos to all for maintaining a friendly place to "meet" and discuss this area; I am sure orulz has something to do with this ;)

avery, many thanks for the link. Yes, I saw the updated version and I loved it. They have done a great job with the renderings and the presentation. As I have said many times before, this project should be appreciated and everyone should realize that Soleil Center's job is not to create urbanity in its traditional form. This high-rise is going to replace an ugly tower, bring activity closer to the street, put some people in an underutilized area, and finally encourage development that will eventually force improvements in pedestrian and vehicular traffic. Soleil Center 2 should merely complete the picture by adding the office component that was removed from Soleil Center 1. Hopefully, additional projects will replace much of the mess that currently exists in that section of Crabtree Valley. Here are some images from the updated site, for your pleasure:

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-6.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-7.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-8.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-9.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-10.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-11.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-12.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-13.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-15.jpg http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/SoleilCenter/SoleilCenter-RaleighNC-14.jpg

Even though I have spoken extensively with the developers, I have no affiliation with them. It upsets me when people rush to criticize Soleil Group, no metter what they do. If they build on the flood plain, they are wrong. If they raise the "first" level 60ft above ground, they are wrong. If they build a modern structure that will distinguish itself from the rest, it will be wrong because they won't build it downtown. If they mix uses in the 5-acre lot they own, they will create additional traffic. If they were to build several mid-rises, however, with retail on the street-level, they would have done it right, even if the design was uninspired, the shops were at the risk of being flooded and traffic was to become far worse. It is a no-win situation for Soleil Group. Thank God there are some sane people who understand the nature of Soleil Center and give the local developer some encouragement. There are thousands of acres of crappy development around Raleigh that we should be bitching about before we crucify Soleil Group. At least they fund their own project, bring us a world class design and reuse an area that has nothing attractive to offer, no matter how much we improve it. Sorry for the ranting, but I have read enough negative posts to get me going... Thankfully, not in SSC.

One observation: Most images show the tower as if it will sit on a flat area. Probably, the developers want to emphasize the tower instead of showing the actual landscape. I would love to see some more realistic renderings... ones that show the exact placement of the high-rise and the real proportions.

^^^Right on brother!!!

I LOVE this building !

Now how far is Crabtree Valley from the CBD again ? Not terribly far as memory serves.

It's not but 4-5 miles. This building will sit about 1/2-3/4 mile off of I-440 at Glenwood Avenue and Edwards Mill Road.

Gotcha.

And it's in the Crabtree Valley. Which sits quite a bit below the average elevation of the rest of the city. Not sure on the exact numbers but it's at good drop in elevation.

I think this is probably going to be one of the sharpest towers in North Carolina...but from an urban design standpoint and how this development relates to its surroundings and pedestrian friendlyness I give this project a big fat zero. Soleil could have done and still has a chance to make some much needed improvments in that area.

Just wait until Soleil Center gets built and the rest of the "block" gets redeveloped - it will. Then we can discuss this project's contribution to the "surroundings". As is, it should be hard to make a case against it. We are in the early stages of Crabtree Valley's renovation phase, but this project should work as a catalyst, not a solution. Glad we agree on the design, though :okay:

By the way, y'all keep in mind that the demolition has been (re)scheduled for 7:30am, but the developers told me to be there at 7am. They have reserved the NW parking deck of Crabtree Valley, and I think you can get there if you have a pass, or something like that; I am not clear about it, but I gave them my address and they should mail me something. Unlike the former convention center, I expect a real show :lol:

Based on what I remember about Crabtree Valley, I'm going with Raleigh on this one.

Huge improvement and outstanding design.

I love this building!

Let me share an update on the previous update :lol: Today I received the pass for the parking deck in Crabtree Valley Mall. Evidently, there will be security all over and won't allow anyone to grab some space on the decks. Soleil Group must have reserved the NW side because it offers one of the best angles. If you are planning on being there, make sure you get a spot elsewhere because I think it will be a bit late to obtain a pass :(

I don't know if you guys saw this, but here is an article from today's N&O: Soleil plan has second tall building (http://www.northraleighnews.com/front/v-printer/story/2940565p-9382069c.html). The interesting part is not really the 18-story Soleil Center 2, but one more [unofficial] announcement. Here is the excerpt:
Both projects are directly across the street from Crabtree Valley Mall, which has been attracting development interest in recent months.

Directly next to the tower, Crabtree Partners submitted a rezoning petition for a 10-story office building, which is one of several projects planned in the area.I was aware of this, but I was expecting something around 5-6 stories. As small as that triangular parcel is, there could be a lot of nice development opportunities AND they can be done right to encourage mixed uses. Who knows, the pedestrian (un)friendliness of Crabtree Valley may be better addressed if more such developments appear. I find it very hard to believe that people will get behind their wheels to go across the street, to the mall, especially when it takes far less time to walk there. Hey, they may even put a few nice restaurants in that area ;) Let me stop here, before I let my enthusiasm go wild. The nice thing is that the 10-story office mid-rise should be about 1/3 of Soleil Center 1's height, offering a nice transition to Creedmoor Rd.

Let me add this: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:QbpPvOXBLkAJ:www.knowledgeplex.org/news/147856.html+Crabtree+Partners&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a

I hope the link works well because the article no longer appears, unless you look at the cached version. If you try and cannot access it, then please let me know and I will try to fix it, somehow.

Is there a map somewhere that shows each of these new buildings outline in the triangular piece of property? I am having a hard time visuallizing where everything is going to go.

I have no idea what these buildings, Soleil II or the 10 story Crabtree Partners, would look like. I am always amazed at the work many of you (especially Raleigh-NC) do to ferret out these designs and bring them to the masses.

As far as the 10 Story building goes, if its going to be on the corner of West Corner of Glenwood and Creedmoor (same side as Soleil, but closer to corner), I would ***LOVE*** to see something that looks like the Flatiron building in NYC.

Anyway, I would expect the success of Soleil I and II to work miracles for that area. Now if someone would tear down the (former) Toys 'r Us building, and rebuild it as something visually pleasing, and dense, I'd be in 7th heaven. (of course Kidds hill would put me there too).

This shows the site of Soleil 1 and 2
I'm not exactly sure about the new 10 story building. Raleigh-NC??

http://i.pbase.com/o4/11/547011/1/59707820.Solielsiteaerial.jpg

Thanks for posting that...I guess the 10 story would have to go closer to the intersection of Creedmoor and Glenwood.

I am not 100% sure, but the location is going to be, most likely, the one labeled 0796318653, right above the "Creedmoor Rd" label. I am also wondering if Soleil Group will work with the city to open the road in front of Soleil Center 1 all the way to Glenwood Ave. That parcel is a huge mess and I can see some benefits from opening one more street. They can do that as a way of negotiating the 18-story proposal. We'll give you a piece of land in return of an approval. Not bad, IMHO. After all, there is a traffic light at the intersection with Creedmoor Rd and it would ease access to the mall.

Since I drive past that site almost every single weekday now, I am convinced that the look of this building is perfect for Crabtree Valley... it is exactly what the valley needs. I am very excited about what's happening over there.

Great things are happening in the Crabtree area. It is really nice to see a midtown being created so quickly for Raleigh. Work, Live, Shop and Play all with in a block or two.

Great job at the renderings.

Here's a link to the planning department proposal that shows the 10 story tower site.

Linky dink (http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Planning/Plans_in_Review/2006/Plan_Submittal_Maps_by_Type/Site_Plan/SP-034-06.pdf)

The only strange thing will be to see this triangular area develop into a mini downtown, by itself :lol: Seriously, though, I am excited about the latest developments. Based on what I had seen and read in the past, this is exactly the type of development I was expecting. Didn't think that a 480ft building will end up there, but it is a great thing that someone finally thought outside the box. Something that doesn't happen often in Raleigh. If Malecha supported Soleil Center 1, it means a lot ;) Let's see how the 10-story building will fit in the existing site. Crabtree Partners have a great chance to create the street-level experience we all want to see. They can put at least one restaurant - slightly elevated, of course - and even some retail. I am afraid it won't happen, but I dare to dream Maybe those who wanted to see a shorter Soleil Center 1 will realize that a smaller tower can be just as pedestrian unfriendly as a 47-story one :lol: Anyway, good news. Thanks for posting the link, Raleighmark :okay:

I've hastily put up photos and video from the implosion. See them here: http://raleighskyline.com/raleigh_hotel_implosion.05.07.06.html

That was a pretty good implosion.... I am still having a hard time grasping the crabtree/north hills area as midtown....in my opinion it is too far out and not based on a grid system. I would think an area like Glenwood South would be the Midtown.

Calling that area midtown in 5-6 years isn't too much of a stretch. I just want to know where uptown Raleigh is? I think I might start calling Durham "Uptown Raleigh".
Seriously though, we don't have to copy naming conventions just to make ourselves seem larger. We aren't NYC, we don't need a "SoMo" midtown and uptown. I know it all comes down to advertising in the end, but I'd much rather see it advertised as "Crabtree" than midtown Raleigh. It can sort of be like Raleigh's own Buckhead. (Hypocrisy is intentional for a laugh.)

in my opinion it is too far out and not based on a grid system. I would think an area like Glenwood South would be the Midtown.The whole midtown thing doesn't get me excited, to be honest with you. I gave Glenwood South some thought about becoming the real midtown, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that Crabtree Valley and North Hills may be better candidates, and for a good reason. Glenwood South is just too far for a suburbanite :( If many people, both inside and outside the Beltline, consider Cameron Village a downtown neighborhood - I do not - you can imagine why Glenwood South could not be a midtown candidate. Besides, DT Raleigh is not large enough to afford a split like this - we will eventually become a large city ;) But I can see your point, and it is a valid argument.

I know that I mentioned this in the past, but copying big cities by introducing terms like "midtown", "uptown", etc. isn't necessary the way to go. This is why I agree with romec's posting. The whole Midtown Raleigh concept is new at this point in time, and quite frankly more of a competition between Crabtree Valley and North Hills than a serious effort to create a real Midtown Raleigh. It will take many years, maybe 10 or more, before Raleigh's population will dictate the need for a midtown district. Crabtree Valley is a very busy area, for the largest part of the day, while North Hills offers a much better pedestrian experience. Both have lots of traffic and increasing population.

Last night I drove through North Hills, like every night, and I was pleasantly surprised to see people walking around, crossing streets, etc., much like a real city area. Don't want to exaggerate it, because the numbers are not comparable to large cities, but the pedestrian activity is there, and it is getting better. Crabtree Valley is a mixed bag. I have seen people walking in areas that I would never consider walking, myself. Not to begin a debate, but this is where I believe that redevelopment around the mall will eventually force the city to spend more money and improve the pedestrian experience. By that, I do not imply that people will be walking around, enjoying themselves. What I merely try to say is that people will be able to walk without taking chances. Improving the Glenwood Ave front will be a Herculean task and it is unrelated to the improved pedestrian-friendliness of the area. It is a friendliness vs. elegance contest, and the latter isn't going to win without major infills/dredevelopments. I think that 20-30 years down the road, North Hills and Crabtree Valley will make up Midtown Raleigh, and it will make sense then. Connectivity issues aside, these two areas are close enough to form one larger district.

Flash, I love your work, and kudos for posting everything so fast :okay:

One little update, since I know that we are all anxious to hear about Galleria. This project is stalled, but for very strange reasons. One of them is the challenge of having so many different floorplans. This has created a HUGE amount of obstacles, as the developers hae to work with so many different contractors. It is far from cancelled, at this point in time, but I cannot say this will resume fast. I maybe mistaken, but I think that the company that proposed Galleria is the one proposing the Creedmoor Towers, one of which will be a 10-story midrise, at the same section with Soleil Center. I will need to confirm this.

An update that you will hear/read about in the next few days: The Creedmoor Tower project, envisioned for the same section with Soleil Center, will be an 8-story office midrise that will include condos on the top floors. The existing 3-story building that faces Creedmoor Rd will be razed and make room for the new building. While it is not going to be a 10-story midrise, as previously announced, this project may be only part of more redevelopment. Hence the name Creedmoor Towers (plural) we saw in the past.

An update that you will hear/read about in the next few days: The Creedmoor Tower project, envisioned for the same section with Soleil Center, will be an 8-story office midrise that will include condos on the top floors. The existing 3-story building that faces Creedmoor Rd will be razed and make room for the new building. While it is not going to be a 10-story midrise, as previously announced, this project may be only part of more redevelopment. Hence the name Creedmoor Towers (plural) we saw in the past.

Still good. I don't think everything needs to be tall. a couple of 8-10 stories is fine.

I hope they decide to put up a time/temperature sign like on the old building. I like seeing it there for some odd reason. I will miss it.

^^
That is not the building that will be replaced. The one to be razed is the one parallel to Credmoor Rd, not the one at the intersection of Glenwood and Creedmoor.

Personally, I will be pleased with anything that replaces 3-4 story low-rises in that area. The existing buildings are suburban enough already, so anything bigger can be an improvement. Of course, there is a chance we'll see yet-another suburban-looking midrise, but at least the developers are considering mixed-use and something above 4 floors :) I am anxious to see the design.

We all like images, so here are a few of Creedmoor Tower, courtesy of Gurlitz Architectural Group:

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/CreedmoorTower/CreedmoorTower-RaleighNC-1.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/CreedmoorTower/CreedmoorTower-RaleighNC-2.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/CreedmoorTower/CreedmoorTower-RaleighNC-3.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/CreedmoorTower/CreedmoorTower-RaleighNC-4.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/CreedmoorTower/CreedmoorTower-RaleighNC-5.jpg

Let me confess that these images are slightly different than the one I saw, which shows a building of about 12-13 floors. Design-wise, I find the tower appealing. Not traditional, but pleasant. The entire project will cost ~$25 million and will be 128,300sf. 90,000sf will be offices and the rest of the space will be distributed among 16 condo units. Gurlitz Architectural Group lists this project as a 10-story building, but at this point in time I cannot tell.

Here is something courtesy of the "Raleighing" Here is the link and there is a picture of the layout that is not included in this post

http://www.raleighing.com/2006/05/crabtree_villag.html#comments


Crabtree Village
“You’ll Be Glad You Did” – Those were the mysterious words displayed on a large sign that once stood on a Glenwood Avenue plot of land that would become Crabtree Valley Mall. The land was owned by Kidd Brewer, and his house overlooked the land from a high perch to the south. In the middle 1980’s the owners of The Bridge Tender in Wrightsville Beach) expanded the house and converted it to The Crossroads Restaurant. Eventually the restaurant failed and was replaced by It’s Prime Only, which moved a few years ago to a strip shopping center at Leesville Road and I-540.

Developers now envision the Brewer land as Crabtree Village, and have filed plans with the City of Raleigh [Z-68-05 (pdf file), SP-33-06 (pdf file)]. According to the plans, developers will raze the land and drastically change the terrain in order to pull off an interesting mix of condos and shopping. The plan calls for the property to have a 70’ vertical drop, the highest point being at the intersection of Blue Ridge Rd. and Homewood Banks Dr. This means there will be a massive haul-off of dirt and a total clearing of the existing vegetation.

(this map points to the intersection in the diagram's lower right) The plan calls for a ring of 3 and 4-story condominiums (yellow and purple) around a 6-level parking deck. A future piece of the ring is a hotel site (green), near the project’s highest point on Blue Ridge Road. The lower half of the project calls for a crescent shaped segment of retail (blue). Because the land is so steep, the south facing retail level (blue) will face retail space on the basement level of the residential/retail ring (purple). The basement of the crescent (blue) will have retail space that faces Crabtree Valley Mall.

There will be five points of vehicular access to the project: one at the residential ring entrance (near Homewood Banks on Blue Ridge), two on Homewood Banks Dr., one on Crabtree Valley Ave., and one on Blue Ridge Road. The Blue Ridge access is one end of the main street which cuts between the ring and crescent all the way to Homewood Banks Rd.

Because of the current state of surrounding land, pedestian access is focused on a crosswalk across Crabtree Valley Ave. to access the Raleigh Greenway system and parking lot of Crabtree Valley Mall.

The project has much potential, although the biggest concern regards the viability of tucked away retail in the current era. The Crabtree Valley area is now a city focus area in the Raleigh Recommended Urban Form master plan (pdf file). Given the treacherous existing terrain, the Crabtree Village plan not only offers some walkable retail and residential areas, but also adds density to the area.

One of the chief criticisms of rail transit in the Raleigh area is the area’s lack of dense foci outside of downtown. It appears that the Raleigh Master Plan would nicely prepare the area for future rail transit, but it has to be followed. Should the North Hills and Crabtree areas get much needed density, the second logical step for the TTA would be to connect the phase I line to North Hills, Crabtree, Rex Hospital, and the RBC Center before rejoining the phase I line.

Traffic, in the meantime, needs to be addressed. The completion of the Edwards Mill/Creedmoor and Duraleigh/Millbrook major arteries now offers commuters options to the Glenwood/Beltline interchange. This interchange, though, must be revisited regardless of Soleil’s or Crabtree Village’s progress.

Crabtree Valley Mall has gotten more quiet than a Lee Fowler coaching search (in regards to their plans for the Crabtree plaza, where Barnes & Noble is located). Of course, if they were smart ;) , then they’d follow the Raleighing plan which calls for a walkable retail community perched on two levels of parking garage. This community could be connected to Crabtree Village via a pedestrian bridge, offering continuity to the pedestrian experience. If Crabtree follows the Raleighing plan, they’ll be glad they did.

Thanks Cary_NC. Raleighing.com is an excellent source of information, and very reliable. Dana and Chris have done outstanding work in bringing us the latest and greatest in Raleigh :okay: For anyone who wishes to see the document where the graphic is from, along with additional information on Kidd's Hill, visit this link: Kidd's Hill PDD (http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_99321_0_0_18/Z-068-05%20PDD.pdf).

This is a larger scale copy of the image, minus the coloring that Dana or Chris used to emphasize some of the components:
http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/KiddsHill/KiddsHill-RaleighNC-1.jpg

I wish I could put my hands on some of the renderings I saw... I would gladly share them with y'all.

is this the site adjacent to the Homewood Suites and Tavola Rossa (sp) restaurant high up on the hill?

Welcome to the forum, wake/ral-nc!!!

Yes, this is the site :okay: The landscape challenges and environmental reasons do not allow for something of extreme urban nature, but the developer seems to use the land in a way that everyone should be satisfied. Can't wait to see the official renderings making their way to the newspapers and local web sites.

thanks for the warm welcome Raleigh-NC -

I always look at the land surrounding Crabtree and envision what it Can be due to its status as "THE" shopping destination in the Triangle (although being heavily challenged now by new areas like SouthPointe) -- With all the new development it may finally reach its potential

Well said. I know that everyone wants to see Crabtree Valley being developed into a true urban center, but this won't be an easy task. First, it will take years to reach the point where un(der)developed land is hard to find. Second, the financial burden of building flood-proof structures is pretty large, let alone truly urban structures. Third, the landscape doesn't really help; hilly terrain isn't exactly easy to turn from suburban to urban.

Back to the Creedmoor Tower project, there is an online article, in the Triangle Business Journal, which tells you more: Third major building planned for Crabtree (http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2006/05/22/story1.html?t=printable). I took the liberty of taking a screenshot of the tower's rendering, as it appears on the online cover of the latest issue.

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/CreedmoorTower/CreedmoorTower-RaleighNC-6.jpg

If you are curious, you can buy the hard copy and see a much better/clearer rendering. Let me say that the building appears as a 13-story structure and not as an 8-story one. If this is true, then it is safe to assume that there will be parking space integrated in the structure, along with 8 floors of office & residential space. I am dying with anticipation to see the final rendering, although I must say that TBJ is usually pretty good with printing the final versions. If anyone has a better rendering, please share it with us.

Well I must say that the race for the title of "Midtown Raleigh" is on..............even though I feel that North hills and crabtree are not to far apart to make a big distinction between the two locations. They are only an exit apart from each other on the beltline......

Not much is talked about RDU, so I thought I would throw this kernel in. I believe that the airport's ashtetic value is big. i am glad to see that an upgrade is coming to our airport in terminal C. This editoral is in response to the Triangle business piece on how ugly Terminal A is. It is good to see that the RDU authority is aware of just how ugly it is.

http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2006/05/22/editorial2.html

We all know how things turned out for the intersection of Oberlin Rd and Wade Ave. The original plans got replaced by a much smaller vision, many of the nearby residents have finally regretted their [bad] attitude towards Neal Coker, and what could have been one of the greatest mixed-use developments turned out to be something below expectations. To be fair, the developers did their best and it is not their fault. The nearby NIMBYs got what they deserved :bash:

There was an article in the News & Observer titled YWCA to sell prime spot on Oberlin (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/v-print/story/445699.html), about plans to sell a nice piece of property on Oberlin Rd. The exciting part, which is also confusing to me, is the current zoning. Read this and help me figure it out:Zoning at the YWCA property could allow for a 10-story building with high-end condominiums and maybe ground-floor offices or shops, said Jim Anthony, president of Anthony & Co., a Raleigh real-estate services firm whose offices are on Oberlin Road. "It's a fabulous site," he said.I will be pleasantly surprised if someone delivers something of this size, but I doubt it VERY seriously. The local NIMBYs will be up in arms, although it will be very hard to win if current zoning allows for such a mid-rise.

Well I must say that the race for the title of "Midtown Raleigh" is on..............even though I feel that North hills and crabtree are not to far apart to make a big distinction between the two locations. They are only an exit apart from each other on the beltline......

I think we should try names other than midtown for them. Maybe easttown and westtown?

Until we have an uptown, I feel the debate is moot. Why Can't we have be happy with Crabtree and North Hills? I am.

^^
Beats me!!! I have no problem with Crabtree Valley and North Hills, but I guess having a midtown address means something to some people. If you are a potential Soleil Center 1 buyer for one of those high-end condos, you would like to here "Midtown" as opposed to "Crabtree Valley". Same may hold true for the New North Hills and East North Hills, but in the latter case it may be more important to store owners than residents.

I was wanting your thoughts about the South Hills area. Here we have a dying, then slowly, reviving, then dying area as the owners of South Hills try to find something to generate some traffic around their shopping area. It is a huge piece of land that stretches from the buck jones exit all the way down to the I-40 overpass. I vote for to tear all of it down and rebuild with some density. COndos, 7-10 story hotel, and a commercial peice. Very similar to North Hills and even a pedestrian bridge to Crossroads would be beneficial.

I was trying to get a map on here but could not figure out how to post it. So maybe one of you computer savvy guys can do it. Would love to hear your thoughts about redeveloping the South Hills area. I know traffic is bad but maybe this a chance to make it better.

I assume you are talking about the triangle bounded by Buck Jones Rd, I-440/Hwy and I-40 (actually, Nottingham Dr). Take a look at the link below and tell me if this is the area (known as South Hills Mall) you are talking about:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=raleigh,nc&ll=35.766163,-78.740387&spn=0.006233,0.013561&t=h&om=1

Assuming the map shows the area in discussion, I couldn't agree more with you. It would be a brilliant idea to consider a complete redevelopment. The best part is that such a redevelopment could easily happen in phases, and why not include parts of the area to the West, where other stores and restaurants currently exist? They could even place a roundabout at the intersection of Buck Jones Rd and Nottingham Dr and build some taller buildings around it - very unlikely, but I can dream...

New North Hills certainly provides a great example of what we can do to significantly alter the face of a dying shopping center. Sure, New North Hills is not 100% urban in the traditional sense, but it is the closest one can get without upsetting the nearby neighbors. After the tremendous and undisputed success of New North Hills, the neighborhood is willing to work closer with the developer and provide much needed support for such large scale redevelopment efforts. Since there are no real neighborhoods around South Hills Mall, it should be a breeze to get approval. The opportunity to create a real urban area, in one of the busiest sections of Cary, should be tempting to smart and gutsy investors.

Will something happen there? Most likely yes, but nobody can tell who will do this, or even when and how the transformation will take place. If there is an area in Cary that has potential for a true urban transformation, with mixed-use developments dominating, this is it!!!

By the way, Cary NC, great idea for discussion :okay:

Many of us have been wondering what is the story with the stalled Galleria project, just West of Crabtree Valley Mall. My sources told me that the large variety of floors plans and options that the developer was considering had increased the costs significantly and that the project was still a go. However, there are some new developments, which prove, once more, the positive influence of Soleil Center 1 to the entire area. Read the following article from today's N&O:

Galleria land may be sold (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/v-print/story/446392.html)

Before you draw any conclusions from the title, consider the following exceprts:
"After the announcement of the Soleil Center ... we got bombarded with calls from people who wanted to buy the property," said Whistler partner Mark Tipton, "We simply said, 'All right: $20.4 million, it's yours.' "

...

He also says Whistler will continue work on the project -- with 250,000 square feet of shops, up to 600 condominiums and about 54,000 square feet of offices -- if no buyers materialize. He hopes to finish it in 2009.

...

The Crabtree Valley Mall area has been attracting interest from developers eager to capture demand for homes and offices near downtown, shopping areas and major roadways. At the end of 2005, developers were building or proposing about 2,000 townhouses, condominiums or apartments and about 400,000 square feet of offices or shops. Since then, plans for at least 500,000 square feet of more offices and dozens more condos have materialized.I underlined the words "near downtown" because I want to put an end to those comments about Crabtree Valley being a suburb, etc. Even in highly urbanized areas, a section of the city less than 5 miles from the center isn't a suburb. People want this type of proximity. It doesn't mean they seek the downtown type of life, but they are beginning to see our city's center as a desirable destination to be close to. Raleighites are slowly returning towards the more central areas of the city. Not only exsiting but new residents, as well, will have the option to be in a familiar territory, without sacrificing amenities and proximity to several destinations. One way or another, great news!!!

Today's News & Observer had a nice article on some of the major projects going up in Crabtree Valley. I can't say I am ecstatic about the tone of the article, as it sees the glass half empty instead of half full - considering the upcoming projects the latter is a more accurate approach. N&O somehow fails to see that there is a movement towards the center of the city and not just suburban development, but this is nothing new. Not to ignore the overall positive contribution of the local newspaper, but if memory serves me well, it was the N&O that managed to find 1-2 people from a Crabtree Valley neighborhood who opposed Soleil Center 1, instead of looking at the overwhelming majority that supported the project. Anyway, the best part of this article, titled Crabtree draws company (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/v-print/story/447092.html), was the image below:

http://www.newsobserver.com/content/business/story_graphics/20060605_crabtree_projects.jpg

I assume you are talking about the triangle bounded by Buck Jones Rd, I-440/Hwy and I-40 (actually, Nottingham Dr). Take a look at the link below and tell me if this is the area (known as South Hills Mall) you are talking about:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=raleigh,nc&ll=35.766163,-78.740387&spn=0.006233,0.013561&t=h&om=1

Assuming the map shows the area in discussion, I couldn't agree more with you. It would be a brilliant idea to consider a complete redevelopment. The best part is that such a redevelopment could easily happen in phases, and why not include parts of the area to the West, where other stores and restaurants currently exist? They could even place a roundabout at the intersection of Buck Jones Rd and Nottingham Dr and build some taller buildings around it - very unlikely, but I can dream...

New North Hills certainly provides a great example of what we can do to significantly alter the face of a dying shopping center. Sure, New North Hills is not 100% urban in the traditional sense, but it is the closest one can get without upsetting the nearby neighbors. After the tremendous and undisputed success of New North Hills, the neighborhood is willing to work closer with the developer and provide much needed support for such large scale redevelopment efforts. Since there are no real neighborhoods around South Hills Mall, it should be a breeze to get approval. The opportunity to create a real urban area, in one of the busiest sections of Cary, should be tempting to smart and gutsy investors.

Will something happen there? Most likely yes, but nobody can tell who will do this, or even when and how the transformation will take place. If there is an area in Cary that has potential for a true urban transformation, with mixed-use developments dominating, this is it!!!

By the way, Cary NC, great idea for discussion :okay:


Yes Raleigh NC that is the link I was trying to post and could not do it. Thanks for gettin it done. I think South Hills could easily pull off a dense living area. The owner, Mr Martin has owned that property since the 70s and I am sure if someone like John Kane came in with some investment funds to help him ( since Mr Martin doesn't have very much cash) it would be a go. Being a native of Cary, I know that the town council would love to have their own "North Hills area" plus it would solve some of the traffic problems. I would think that if they bought Williamsburg Manor, the old 70s apartments as well then they could have full access to Nottingham. Borders, the grocery store, and the Ice House could move into the new developed area as well as offer the condos/ townhomes to replace Willamsburg Manor. All the current tenants to take up residence at South Hills. The two gas stations are the only sticklers but I am sure a place can be found. I am very good friends with the owner of the Exxon by the way. So any other ideas. I would just love to see some high rising density to one of the gateways of Cary.

Not much to contribute in terms of new ideas... I think that a North Hills East model would fit better, with several tall mid-rises and a nice mix of residential, retail and office space dominating the landscape. The potential is there, but the need for major financial backing may not be. At least not until several projects all over the Triangle are done. Cary can get a huge image boosting if developers start thinking outside the box. The town has the "neatness" element in place, but what is missing is strong urban guidelines to prevent unwanted sprawl. Growth is inevitable, and Cary will get more than its fair share, but certain things need to change prior to a huge metamorphosis. For example, Cary officials need to speed up the growth within the town's little downtown area. I may be alone on this, but I think that the latter isn't bad at all. Just a few nice infills and the transformation will generate more growth in the "center" than people ever imagined. I am not saying that Cary will end up with only one center, but starting from downtown may not be a bad idea for this growing town. Not that I would mind to hear that South Hills will be redeveloped first ;)

WOW @ what's going on in Crabtree!

So how exactly is this area urbanizing?

Crabtree Valley will be all about density, not the traditional urban fabric. The landscape doesn't help at all. The Galleria and Crabtree Village sit on an elevated position, and we are not talking about the top of the hill either. There are a lot of townhomes being built, but don't imagine anything spectacular. It's density, all right, but nothing you haven't seen in many cities across the US. Take a look at the following to get a clear idea of what I am talking about.

The Townes at Crabtree:
http://www.pulte.com/assets/images/COMM/2822_TheTownesatCrabtree/Chadsworth2Bedroom_EL_1.jpg

Crabtree Valley is not an urbanized area, but it is nevertheless an urban center, and with the addition of all these projects it will gain visibility. Walkability has been addressed, but we are far from the day when you will see hundreds of people walking around. The mall is the main attraction so far, and the dozen or so hotels certainly add to the mix. Without people actually living around the mall, this section of Raleigh has no chance, but all the upcoming projects make us optimistic about the future. Again, this is not a traditionally urban area, but I expect major improvements in the future.

One more detail: You might have heard some people complaining about the not-so-urban nature of Soleil Center 1, due to the lack of street-level destinations. This project, along with Creedmoor Tower and Soleil Center 2, will be sitting on a flood plane. No one in his right mind would rent space on the ground level. Plus, FEMA has certain requirements and restrictions that force the developer to move the activity above street-level. Personally, I am confident that these projects will address more issues, while adding pedestrian activity towards the mall and other nearby destinations. Call me optimistic, but I lived near Crabtree Valley for 6.5 years and drove by there 6 days a week, minimum. One of these days I will manage to post some photos, so you can see what Crabtree Valley looks like.

OK thanks, I can get somewhat of an idea now.

I forgot to mention one nice feature: Raleigh's greenway system goes through Crabtree Valley. It is not unusual to see people running, walking, or biking there throughout the day. Someone who lives/works in the section where Soleil Center will be, can easily walk under the bridge to the shops. This is not ideal and creates a below-street-level activity, but it's better than nothing.

We got a couple of articles today concerning the Wade Ave/I-40 project, near the RBC Arena:

1) Triangle Business Journal: Mixed-use project near RBC Center almost crowded out (http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2006/06/19/story2.html?t=printable). The following image shows a nice rendering, but until I put my hands on a hard copy it will be difficult to share a clearer picture.

http://img.bizjournals.com/u/f/triangle/20060619/coverimage.jpg

2) News & Observer: Building near the Canes (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/v-print/story/452197.html). There is a nice image showing a rendering and a map of the area. While I do not care about the whole surface parking component, I must admit that it will be placed in a location that sits above the highway and will be separated from the latter by the existing tree buffer. In other words, the developer/builder takes a suburban element away from the front and puts it in the back, where it won't be visible. As it can easily be seen, the semi-urban nature of this development becomes more evident when we look at the image below. Separated from Edwards Mill Rd by a natural parkland, this development will suffer from visibility. Don't get me wrong, this large buffer is inevitable because of landscape challenges, but I surely want to see connectivity with Trinity Rd and dense development along the connecting road. Regardless, this is a step to the right direction and now I am anxious to see what the plans are for the rest of the area.

http://newsobserver.com/content/business/story_graphics/20060619_development.jpg

The developers would be smart to push those Parking decks closer to the RBC Center. They could syphon off some of the Arena lot parking.

I may be mistaken, but this may not be as easy. Isn't that area a bit hard(er) to develop due to elevation changes? I must go back and check it out again, but I think there may be challenges that could push the costs much higher. Also, I do not expect from this development to alter the image of that area. Unless the rest of the available land gets developed, I expect nothing even close to New North Hills and North Hills East in terms of integration with the rest of the area. Not that there is anything to connect to yet, but I surely hope to see something good following the plan we see here.

The scariest part is that Post Properties is capable for the extremes. Judging from their work in Charlotte and Atlanta, they can give us good urban projects as well as suburban mess. Hopefully, the light-gray shaded area, where the multi-family buildings will go, will not end up in the usual suburban form. I would like to believe that we'll see good integration with the "town center" and a truly walkable community will eventually emerge, connecting to the rest of the city in the hopefully-not-so-distant future.

Let me add one more link: RBC-Area Development To Give Tailgaters Company (http://www.nbc17.com/news/9395130/detail.html).

^^^ Now there will be a designated area that serves as a "Punching Bag" after a Basketball title or another NHL Title. I am glad to finally see development for this area.

Aren't we all? As long as I see urban developments going there, I don't care if it takes another 10 years.

I like the look of townes at crabtree,hopefully they are high enough(on a hill) to not be in the flood zone

The Townes At Crabtree are sitting on a higher level... Much higher level, and they are not prone to flooding. In fact they are being built at an elevated position. I like the models and I recommend this development to anyone willing to spend ~$260,000 for a 2200sf townhome with a 2-car garage. The nicest part, it is within walkable distance from Crabtree Valley!!!

Hey, I know you guys probably don't like me too much because I've said some mean things about Raleigh on this forum.... but I have a question. Does anyone know if the News and Observer has a "letters to the editor" section? I looked on the website and couldn't find one. Do you have to just write a letter and mail it in? I witnessed something at a restaraunt today that I really wan't to address on the paper. I promise it's not dissing Raleigh or anything like that lol.

never mind, I found it.

ROCGuy, nobody hates you here... It is just that you diss Raleigh when it is uncalled for, during a time that is crucial for the city's transformation and none of the things we are so happy about are actually done yet. Patience is a virtue and you don't seem to have it - I am not judging you, as I am a person with short temper and low amount of patience :(

On the positive side, I like the way you represent Rochester - I visit the NE forums every now and then - and I wish you gave Raleigh a similar representation every now and then. I do feel that your input is necessary and I hope you return to the Triangle topics with a non-judgemental mentality. Maybe you can give us a photo tour of the areas you hate the most ;) That thread will get lots of hits, I am sure :lol:

I can honestly say that I don't hate Raleigh in all reality, I just hate living here. If I were to come here on a visit, having never lived here, I would say "Raleigh seems like a pretty nice place, but I wouldn't want to live here". I say I hate Raleigh, but really mean that I hate living here. (wow does that sound redundant) It's mostly to do with the fact that I didn't get to grow up around extended family and feel I misssed out on much of that experience. Now my grandfather is in the hospital, with little (but hopefully some) hope of leaving, so we are flying up tomorrow.

My sympathy to you and your family. Hopefully your grandfather will manage to go against the odds and make it through this tough period of his life. I grew up with my grandparents I loved them very much. I owe them a great deal of gratitude.

Anyway, I encourage you to keep coming to this part of the forum and express your views. Better, go out there and take photos of all the areas you hate the most in Raleigh and present them here, not in an ultra-negative way. You can start a thread with the following title: The things I hate about the city I live in. You will find out that many of us may feel the same way. Now, Raleigh is not the only city with great things happening, as well as mistakes, but the only way to improve the situation is to present the real picture while we care to change things to the better. I don't want to sound like a preacher, but I would love to see a photo thread on Raleigh from you. If not the areas you hate, present the areas you like more ;)

Raleigh is dramatically bigger than Rochester. In both municipal population and metro.

Yes, you are correct. I used to work for Paychex, which has its HQ in Rochester, and I had the chance to visit ROC. There are good things about Rochester, and Raleigh could learn from it. Raleigh is a "warmer" place though, not to mention the difference in financial status of the two cities and the opportunities.

I hated Raleigh when I first moved here from New York myself, give it a couple of years and it will grow on you. Or maybe not but it did for me I love my city, as RaleighNC said there are some things I hate about it but its really a great place and a great state.

^^
Which part of New York are you from? I moved from NYC early on 1992.

We lived in Manhattan, in styvesuant town off 20th street & 1st ave., for 8 years and out on the island in southold for one. I was very young when we moved but I still miss it. We visit anually or semi-anually atleast.

Does anybody know when they are gonna fix the beltline specificaly the inner belt between new bern avenue and lake wheeler road. Its in horrible condition id actually consider it unsafe, theres craters 3 inches deep every 10 feet. I gotta just go as fast as i can and try to "fly" over them.

Drove by there this past weekend but I didn't notice anything happening. I have no idea when the money will be available for repairs/improvements in that section of the Beltline, but I have a feeling the funds will appear some time in the nearest future, as SE Raleigh continues to attract new residents. Speaking of which, here is a nice article, titled SE Raleigh attracts development (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/v-print/story/459098.html), from today's N&O. With more people living in SE Raleigh, more improvements for that area should come. The only thing that scares me is that I am not sure the city is doing a good [enough] job to prevent the mistakes of the past from happening again, when it comes to urban development. SE Raleigh has a huge advantage, and that is location. Couple this with better quality of development and we may see a model for future communities. A bit hard to tell at this point, but I will be watching this area closely.

Raleigh is dramatically bigger than Rochester. In both municipal population and metro.

um.... ok. Anyways, thank you Raleigh-NC for your kind words, but unfortunetly he passed away a week ago, on July 4, at 11:30 PM. We were originally supposed to fly back to Raleigh tomorrow but now we are staying for a while to help my grandmother clean out her house because she is probably going to sell it now. It's pretty sad. I did tour some schools up here though because I'm pretty sure this is where I want to go after I graduate. Nothing personal Raleigh, just still doesn't feel like home, and I don't think that'll change within the next year. That plus I feel horrible for my grandma and he can use all the help she can get. I've got a ton of family here but the more that can help the better. That plus I've never really gotten a chance to spend a lot of time with my grandparents (or most of the family here), only seeng them a few weeks out of the year.

ROCguy, I am truly sorry for your loss :( Having grown up with my grandparents, and having lost them to age, I understand exactly how you feel. Yes, helping your grandmother cope with your grandfather's death is the best thing you and the rest of the family can do. As for Raleigh, don't sweat it. I do believe that some day in the distant future you may miss it, but for as long as you are not happy here, at this stage of your life, it makes lots of sense to move when you graduate. I hope you find some good opportunities up in Rochester, where you have family and roots. As long as you visit the forum and post every now and then I will be alright ;)

Just a couple of updates:

1) North Hills East: Raleigh Council To Revisit North Hills East Financing (http://www.wral.com/news/9501517/detail.html#).

http://www.wral.com/2006/0711/9501632_400X300.jpg

2) Hillsborough Street: City Council Signs Off On Hillsborough Street Roundabouts (http://www.wral.com/news/9501977/detail.html#).

http://www.wral.com/2005/1111/5307389_400X300.jpg

I like the idea of roundabouts. The one above looks too small though, I think that size would lead to more accidents.

the rendering that you have up there for NH East is a newer rendering from the two or three we have seen up to now. should that mean a full set of renderings will come out after the council decides?

Transplant, while I like the roundabouts, Hillsborough Street can do without them, except for a few spots (i.e. Boylan Ave & Hillsborough Str). The worst nightmare will be the reduction from 4 lanes to 2 lanes. I am sorry, but for a busy/central road - most of the year, anyway - like Hillsborough Str, this is the dumbest thing the city can do :bash: If Raleigh was a small town, then I would not be worried. Hopefully, they won't do this for the entire street.

Rufus, the rendering above is not new. It simply shows another angle of the same project. See below for comparison; the first rendering is what we see in the website:

http://northhillsraleigh.com/east/wp-content/images/thumb-NHcover_01.jpg

The mid-rises below are the ones shown at the right top of the image above. My guess is that the two renderings are merely parts of the same big image, which we have not seen just yet.

http://www.wral.com/2006/0711/9501632_400X300.jpg

Unfortunately, Kane is making the same mistake MANY local developers are making... He is keeping everything secret. Instead of showing it off as much as possible, he takes the road more frequently travelled in the Triangle. Release a few images and that's it :( Naturally, I do not expect Kane to show all his cards, but I want to see more about the street-level experience. The New North Hills (or should I call it North Hills West?) made a huge difference, but there are many things that could have been done better. Maybe the remaining two mid-rises that will fill the parking lot at the corner of Lassiter Mill and Six Forks roads will make the difference, but as is, I can't say that Kane didn't make huge mistakes in the overall design. He may not admit it, but all of us who drive through and walk around there know better.

Anyway, I am not sure how y'all feel about the $75 million loan that Kane is asking for, but I would like to think that he is bargaining with the city in order to allow him for more/taller mid-rises. At the end, the return may be great, a point that city officials seem to agree on, but neither the city, nor the county, are in the business of lending money, or assisting a developer with some of his project's components. In a way, this was done with Two Progress Plaza, Site 1 and the new Convention Hotel, but this is an entirely different ballgame. While I do not imply that Kane doesn't mean well when he "threatens" us with a mediocre development, I must say that any scale down, average type of development won't make North Hills East an attractive destination. After all, why didn't Kane mention this as soon as he released the initial renderings? Why, all of the sudden, he decides to ask for help? Doesn't he work with smart investors/developers who understand the dynamics, potential and profitability of a parking deck inside a development as great as North Hills East? He could very easily select partners who could finance his parking deck and not have to deal with the city.

Whatever decision the city makes I won't blame them. If we struggled to find ~10 million for the reopening of Fayetteville Street, I am not sure we can contribute much to the $75 million that Kane's parking deck is projected to cost. Even with the county helping, it would be very hard to come up with so much money. My suggestion is that the city should offer Kane a smooth ride. That is, revisit his twin mid-rise proposals that are left to complete the New North Hills picture - the hotel is already under way, as well as The Lassiter - and give him immediate approval, bypassing that stupid Appearance Committee that rejected the towers due to their proximity to the street. Then, allow Kane to build a denser North Hills East and make the most out of it. I just can't see Kane delivering a mediocre project and then brag about it. It would be dumb to admit this and even dumber to say that he never warned about the effects of the scale down. How is he going to market North Hills East? A prime destination, in the heart of Raleigh, that could have been MUCH better? I just hope that we don't miss a great opportunity, but even more, I hope that Kane is sincere and not trying to get sneaky with taxpayers' money. After all, North Hills is taking business away from downtown - don't forget that he lured the largest business tenant from Reynolds Tower 1, hence the delay and the possible [small] reduction in size.

So, what do you guys think?

just watched the story on WRAL.com. $75 mil is alot for any city of any size to pay for a parking deck. but like you said, i would understand any decision the council makes. in the long run, financially, its sounds benefitial to Raleigh, but then again, in these "tight budget" days, who has $75 mil sitting around?

Love this project! thanks for posting all these updates!

another thing is that the site for both the lassiter and renaissance hotel do not look like there is work going on. the june date for both projects to begin construction has passed and yet nothing has happened.

remember in 2003, when kane released renderings of NH and the lassiter shopping area w/ condos, he was quick to get city approval, even though the city was just beginning its boom, and he quickly began construction by the end of 2003. what has happened with mr. kane and the city? maybe because this is a larger scale project, that it is taking a while for an understanding of the project is completed. the people just dont have the full story of the project, and in my opinion, it is hurting mr. kane more than the city. that is just my 2 cents.

There is a nice promotional video for North Hills, in case you want to check it out: http://www.thelassiter.com/neighborhood/tour.aspx.

North Hills is a great example from an urban design standpoint of what should be built in these 440 belt areas. It is the exact opposite of Soleil. Now I don't think that the city council should shell out $70M in help for this project...that is just too steep a price...$10M would be more reasonable.

North Hills East is definitely a less challenging area to develop and cannot be compared to Crabtree Valley. I have no position on whether the city should provide any financing for this development, but I am afraid this will set the tone for more such deals in the future. One great example can be found here: Developer eyes financing Chapel Hill hoped to avoid (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/v-print/story/460090.html). Any such deals in Charlotte? If yes, what was the outcome?

(Note: I decided to add content, to avoid additional postings.)

Two N&O stories worth reading:

Funding used stringently in similar cities (http://www.northraleighnews.com/front/v-printer/story/2976651p-9407755c.html)

Parking lots at premium (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/v-print/story/461295.html)

Nothing exciting, but the first story draws some parallels with other cities (i.e. Portland). It is always good to see how other areas have dealt with TIFs and what the pros and cons are. As for the second story, it shows how increasing costs affect some of the recent proposals.

Someone asked for renderings of the NC Art Museum extension, so here they are. I do not recall the architect, but I will research this and add the credits later. Nothing urban, but since it was kindly requested... :lol:

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/NCMuseumOfArtExtention/NCMuseumOfArtExtention-RaleighNC-1s.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/NCMuseumOfArtExtention/NCMuseumOfArtExtention-RaleighNC-2s.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/NCMuseumOfArtExtention/NCMuseumOfArtExtention-RaleighNC-3s.jpg

The NC Art museum looks nice. :)
Nice to see Raleigh growing with so many projects.:)

Thanks Raleigh-NC!!

As a huge supporter of the arts here in the triangle, i was surprised to hear that the museum of art and the the museum of science downtown both rank as some of the top museums in the south and the country in their respective fields. another thing, the recent donation of Rodin sculptures and artwork will make Raleigh one of the leading Rodin exhibits in the country and even the world. i dont know if the museum of art will have the largest collection of Rodin pieces, but it is still rumored to be quite a large quantity of pieces. way to go Raleigh!

Glad you guys liked the renderings. Personally, I was hoping to see something more urban, but who accused the state government of thinking straight? :no:

Not that many poster from the triangle care for Cary,but it appears they want to revamp the downtown area just like her big sister,Raleigh, at a cost of $20 million. There was a story on the news about it that showed some renderings and I know that the Town of Cary website has some too. It is the typical posh Cary but just maybe some density will becoming to the downtown area with retail on street level and condos on top, up to 6 stories. That is what I remember them originally proposing.

I saw the news and I wanted to post it in the Triangle developments section, but I am in the process of getting my office system cleaned up because next week I am beginning a new job :) Unfortunately, I am not done cleaning up, so I can't post much, but I will return with more... As for this project, they have been talking about it for years now. Personally, I am very excited about it and I am happy for Cary. Speaking for me, I do not look down on Cary. It is a great place to live, and once its downtown gets revitalized it will explode with great developments. The potential is there. All we miss is the developers to make it happen. Unfortunately, Mr Goodnight and his buddies care only about sprawling subdivisions (i.e. Preston) and suburban crap. Cary needs someone with respect to the town's old fabric and deep pockets to make things happen.

This was sort of expected, but here is the official word: Soleil Center 2 was recommended for approval by the City Planning Commission. Next Tuesday, the City Council will have to make their decision, but I do not foresee any troubles. For those not familiar with Soleil Center 2, it will be an 18-story mixed-use tower that will supplement the 47-story Soleil Center 1.

will it be across the street

No, it will be adjacent, to the North.

There is a Soleil update in the N&O today for those interested. Looks as though NONE of the condo units have sold - and thats after a $350,000 marketing campaign thus far. I know there are people on both sides of the debate on this particular building, but that can't bode well for the future of the building. Perhaps just the Westin portion of the project would be more appropriate for this area?

Anyway - here is the article: http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/500726.html

Yes, I saw it, and let me say that I am not happy about the news. However, I am not pessimistic and I am sure that Soleil Group will pull this. If they have secured the Westin branding for the hotel, the rest will happen. However, they may have to divide some of the larger units - hence the increase from 41 to 49 - and maybe even bite the bullet and move on without significant pre-sales numbers. I am very surprised to hear that there is no interest because there were [supposedly] several interested parties prior to the demolition of the former Sheraton. Maybe there is a mistake in the reporting and what the reporter meant was that the developers do not have enough pre-sales to break ground. On the other hand, if it comes down to prestige, Soleil Group has $250 million in their war chest and they can move on with construction, without losing money, but this is not how developers do things.

Of course, many opponents will rush to "celebrate", but I am confident that this is a minor delay and nothing more. After all, many of those opposing Soleil Center 1 were "warning" us after the approval about the impact that this tower may have on downtown and since then all the major proposals in the center were scaled up. If Soleil Center 1 scales down, it won't have the slightest impact, nor it will hurt the image of the area. Of course, DT Raleigh is providing a far greater competition to this project, even though the market targeted with Soleil Center 1 is different, so we'll see what will happen in the following months.

Well It looks like the Dorothea Dox panel suggest city purchase property, but one line sums it up from the panel.

"You're a dysfunctional family right now," "Everybody's talking, and no one is listening. No one is really in charge."
said panel member Tom Murphy, the former mayor of Pittsburgh

Here is N&O article.

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/503450.html

Yes, Tom Murphy is absolutely correct. We have only mess to deal with because some people still live 100 years ago :( We have already exhausted the topic in previous conversation, so I will spare everyone my views. Personally, I am sick and tired of the whole thing. I surely hope that the best decision is made. Here is another link that I found earlier today... with a video:

http://www.wral.com/news/10172055/detail.html

wow, I had no idea Tom Murphy was part of the panel

Lets have another park downtown.....

then keep bulldozing everything else in Wake Co.....and continue building cookie cutters......>(

I bet these pussies live in Wakefield.........:|

Any news on Brier Creek Village? Walked through there today the apartments are pretty far along. They are clearing land along "main street" all the way up to the school. It appears they are going to start on what will be some retail places.

Welcome to the forum, Gatornation :) Brier Creek Village is still under planning phase. Nothing except the school is there. The existing apartments are outside of the village's boundaries, I believe. They promised us something truly urban, so we'll see.

TarheelsCubs, those pussies are from the Boylan Heights, Oakwood, Hillsborough Street/NCSU, and Cameron Village areas, I guarantee you ;) North Raleighites have proven far more progressive (i.e. North Hills) and bolder (i.e. Soleil Center 1) than the ones living in the areas mentioned above. Now, if we can fill downtown and the surrounding areas with people who appreciate urbanity, we may see some progress.

Any news on Brier Creek Village? Walked through there today the apartments are pretty far along. They are clearing land along "main street" all the way up to the school. It appears they are going to start on what will be some retail places.
Today, I drove by there and realized that you were talking about a different cluster of apartments. Yes, they are moving along fast, but I can't say I am ecstatic about the result. Sure, they are closer to the street, and there are sidewalks we can be happy about, but the actual design is very suburban. Anyway, better than the average crappy apartment complexes. Sorry for trying to correct you on something you were totally right about.

One very important document is the Preliminary Land Capacity Analysis (http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Planning/Comprehensive_Plan_Update/Land_Capacity_Analysis_Oct_2006_Final.pdf), which was recently released by the Planning Dept. It is not specific to downtown, or any other area, but I figured it may be more appropriate in this thread. Page 7 has a very nice summary, which I will paraphrase here. the Total Development Capacity is 24,300 acres (4,300 acres already in the pipeline), 122,000 residential units (22,000 units already in the pipeline) and 86.7 million non-residential square feet (21.4 million sf already in the pipeline). These numbers are strictly for the existing territory (115,300 acres). Take a look at the linked document and discuss... if you wish.

A little update on the Hillsborough Street revitalization, from the News & Observer: Raleigh proposal calls for roundabouts (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/509949.html). Personally, I hate to see 2 lanes turning into 1, each direction, but a facelift of Hillsborough Street will certainly add momentum and bring that street back to its old glory... hopefully. As for the traffic, expect it to get worse, not better.

A little update on the Hillsborough Street revitalization, from the News & Observer: Raleigh proposal calls for roundabouts (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/509949.html). Personally, I hate to see 2 lanes turning into 1, each direction, but a facelift of Hillsborough Street will certainly add momentum and bring that street back to its old glory... hopefully. As for the traffic, expect it to get worse, not better.

This street is screaming for a streetcar scenario to DT

^^
Amen to that!!! Is the city listening/thinking, though? If they didn't bow to every NIMBY moron, the "problem" would have found a good solution, a very long time ago. Once the roundabouts are in place, there is no going back to a street that could provide a nice urban experience, with good transportation alternatives in place. To me, they could build 1-2 parking decks, with some street-level retail, wrap them with some apartments and offices (similarly to the Wake County/Empire Properties project on Davie & McDowell Streets) and solve the parking issues for many years to go.

Of course, when they first came up with the idea of roundabouts, the TTA regional rail proposal was more viable, which would provide some alternatives, but the city leaders should have thought this over after the project was rejected by the Feds. There are a couple of places that could benefit from the roundabouts: 1) the intersection of Hillsborough Str with Henderson Str and Stanhope Ave, and 2) the intersection of Hillsborough Str with Boylan Ave. However, a light rail could go through the roundabout, while cars should circle the latter. That would be a traffic nightmare and a very dangerous spot, but who says roundabouts are always safe?

Some people may wonder what's up with Soleil Center 1. The developers wanted to break ground some time in November, but we have not seen much activity to imply that the developers are going to be on schedule. However, this doesn't mean anything because, as the News & Observer reports in an article titled Plans for Soleil Center languish (http://www.newsobserver.com/1253/story/511397.html), some final changes are being made (increase the number of condos from 41 to 49). Here is an excerpt:

Ross Weyman, with Bovis Lend Lease, a Chicago company that is providing preconstruction and construction work for the Soleil Center, said that the plans for the 43-story tower were being tweaked.

Architects at the Chicago firm, Perkins + Will, are redesigning the towers to allow for 49 condos, up from the original 41 proposed.

"Everyone is still involved with the project," Weyman said. "It's still moving forward."

"It's not really clear to us as the contractor," Weyman added. "We're working through some design issues with the architect and the owner."

Weyman said the changes were subtle and wouldn't change the building's appearance to "the casual observer."
I continue to be optimistic and I hope that the developers are planning to build both towers at the same time instead of doing one at a time. I am sure it would be cheaper to construct two towers at once, especially when the same contractors are involved. What angers me is the persistence by the journalists/editors to use negative titles. That is poor reporting :ohno:

The City of Raleigh is pursuing the purchase of Dorothea Dix Campus and its development according to ULI's recommendations and the plan that the city put together, a few months ago. Here is a story, although not very enlightening: Raleigh seeks support on Dix purchase (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/513371.html).

Also, the City Council approved the Kidds Hill proposal, as per this story: Crabtree project gets OK (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/513358.html). Some people have cautioned about the environmental impact. Personally, I like this proposal and I hope that none of the warnings is correct. In brief, the proposal will include:

Phase I
No more than 749 residences.
160,000sf of retail/restaurants.

Phase II
An 150-room hotel (no more than 200 feet/250,000sf).
Offices and additional retail/restaurants.

Today, I drove by there and realized that you were talking about a different cluster of apartments. Yes, they are moving along fast, but I can't say I am ecstatic about the result. Sure, they are closer to the street, and there are sidewalks we can be happy about, but the actual design is very suburban. Anyway, better than the average crappy apartment complexes. Sorry for trying to correct you on something you were totally right about.

No big deal. I walked through again the other day and there are a lot of things going on. There appears to be townhouse or more apartments going up just north of the original apartments. Toll brothers has a sign just south of the apartments announcing they are building luxury condo's. The walls of office buildings are up and the most interesting is the foundation is down right across the street from the school. That building will be part of the "main street" road. It will be very interesting to see how that looks.

Yes, it will be very interesting. Some time ago the developer published a rendering (see below) and I am glad I saved it :) If the final product looks anything like this, we'll be lucky. I may go there today and check out the progress.

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/BrierCreek/M_BC_Rend_lrg.jpg
Image is courtesy of the American Asset Corporation

Looks a little like Peidmont Town Center in South Park, in Charlotte. If it is, you are in for a nice
development.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b287/Wlangston1/Condos/piedmont%20Village/03-09-06-2.jpg

That looks nice :okay: I truly hope we get something cool because I am sick and tired of Brier Creek's developers f*cking up one opportunity after another.

Some good news concerning the former Galleria project, West of Crabtree Valley Mall. The current land owners have come to an agreement with a Houston company, which will take over this parcel and redevelop it into 500 residential units and 250,000sf of retail, restaurants and 150,000sf of offices. The new name of this project will be Crabtree Town Center. Not too original, but who cares, as long as it turns out to be a good project. Hopefully, nothing too suburban in character. Just for the record, the current owner will be the developer of the 10-12 story Creedmoor Towers project, on the same area with Soleil Center 1 and 2. It is safe to assume that they have been waiting for the sale of the former Galleria site prior to moving forward with their midrise proposal.

Let me share an online article, courtesy of Triangle Business Journal: Crabtree project getting new life with sale (http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/01/01/story1.html?t=printable).

So when is this Soleil tower ever going to break ground? :lol:

Sometime soon I hope....

Hopefully soon... My guess is that they are working out some details concerning the change in the number of condos - some increase, via splitting larger units - but it is also my theory that they are actually planning on building both towers at the same time - thus reducing costs significantly. There is one more theory of mine: Changes that may alter the height, enough to go above the RBC Plaza, but this is not very likely to happen. If the developer has a deal with Westin Hotels, I doubt it very seriously they will be into any trouble. Securing a Westin brand hotel requires some balls on Soleil Group's part, so I will maintain my confidence in them until I hear otherwise.

I am a bit slow today :( It took me a while to post some updates, but here is a piece of good news: Hotel set to break ground (http://www.newsobserver.com/1253/story/528915.html). We have been waiting for this announcement for a while. Unfortunately, it is not about Soleil Center but The Renaissance Raleigh Hotel, in North Hills (see image below), but the news is great, regardless.

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/NorthHills/DSCN4312s.jpg

The writer made one factual error, however:
After more than two years of waiting, construction on the final component of North Hills will start this month.
This is not the final component... There are a couple of buildings missing, mainly because of the dumbasses in one of the city commissions, who rejected the two midrises because they were proposed to be close to the street (see Urban) and the idiots wanted a 130+ ft buffer :bash: The two buildings are shown below:

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/Raleigh/NorthHills/TheNewNorthHills-19.jpg

This component will be the final part of New North Hills (The Lassiter is not included; there is one more residential midrise scheduled to go there), but for now it has been stalled. Hopefully, after East North Hills gets some momentum, Kane Realty will consider going back to the drawing board and finish with that large surface lot that today appears to be more like an eyesore.

Did anybody catch that article in N&O about the $22.6 million land sale in Morrisville for 96 acres... former Bristol meyers plant/ Andryx plant

The plan...

To develop it into a mixed use development like North Hills...

Location
Cary Parkway and Hwy 54 (ie Chapel Hill Road). One good thing is that the planned rail stop was a couple hundred yards down and so maybe they would move the stop there since it is dense property on 96 acres....

http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/528931.html

Did anybody catch that article in N&O about the $22.6 million land sale in Morrisville for 96 acres... former Bristol meyers plant/ Andryx plant

The plan...

To develop it into a mixed use development like North Hills...

Location
Cary Parkway and Hwy 54 (ie Chapel Hill Road). One good thing is that the planned rail stop was a couple hundred yards down and so maybe they would move the stop there since it is dense property on 96 acres....

http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/528931.html

Im not sure of the exact location but morrisville could definatly benifit from something like this.

Did anybody catch that article in N&O about the $22.6 million land sale in Morrisville for 96 acres...
Yes, I have already posted something here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=11163050&postcount=157. I posted it in the TTA thread because I think the developers will try to make this project more transit oriented and emphasize proximity to a regional rail station. It will be a great opportunity to create a nice urban community. Hopefully, they won't blow it.

Soleil Update:
I found this on urbanplanet.org... POSTED JAN 7..
Update on Soleil Center Project.

Despite all the negative talk, the Project is moving along just fine. We are still scheduled for a late 2008/early 2009 opening.

Because of the iconic design and specialty curtain wall system, we have had to jump through many hoops before the structural engineers could sign off on the core design of the building. It took us an extra 6 months to conduct various geo-seismic studies. The quality of bed rock was not the same everywhere on the foot print of the building. As a result we had to test drill every column location. Good news is that we have very good data to move forward with the design. We have also just completed the wind tunnel studies required for a high rise structure like ours. Since the building twist and turns at every angle you can imagine the complexity in the structural design process. There were only a couple of Companies capable of engineering and installing the unique curtain wall system designed for the tower. These companies had no capacity for new work until 2007-2008. We have now secured commitment from the leading company in the US for our job and the process is well under way.

We have also finished the value engineering process. We had an option to lower the height of the tower but chose not do so. The room count of the hotel has increased from 264 to 290. We have 49 condos. Floors 39 thru 42 have one condo unit per floor. Floors 30 thru 38 have two condos per floor. Floors 21 thru 29 have three units per floor. The Pool and the Reebok Fitness center are on the 18th and 19th floor, and the Heavenly Spa is on the 8th floor. During our value engineering phase we were also able to add more meeting and breakout space for the conference center.

We have over 200 wait listed reservations for 49 units. Unfortunately we cannot advertise their names. Most of our prospects are highly placed individuals and very successful professionals. Although it is true that the housing market has softened, but the Carolinas are still doing well. Our project in particular has no competition in it's class. What we are offering is a lifestyle not just another Condo - Home? We have appointed YSU homes to market our Residences. We are spending in excess of $500,000 to construct the state of the art Sales and Marketing office. Our Sales Center is scheduled to open in early February.

Thank you all for your support and enthusiasm for our project. We could have chosen to build two brick buildings and laughed all the way to our bank, instead we chose to create a green, eco friendly, iconic structure for our great city. We are setting tone for a new era of development that is respectful of the mother nature.



DICKY S. WALIA
PRINCIPAL
SOLEIL GROUP

Questions from the previous post... Found on Urbanplanet.org.. POSTED JAN 8 AND 9 ( deleted the actually usernames who asked the questions... go to urbanplanet.org to find them out) Answers are provided by Dicky Walia...

QUESTION 1
Mr. Walia, are there any concerns about the impact flooding could cause? As I'm sure you're aware, the Crabtree Valley area is subject to frequent flooding.

ANSWER 2
The new design and development guidelines call for all new structures developed to be at least 15 feet above grade. This means that no habitable structures can be built at grade. In our case we have small arrival lobbies at grade to greet arriving guests and residents, further even structured parking begins at level 2 (21 feet above grade). The Guests and Residents then transfer to our high speed shuttle elevators to get to the Sky Lobby - Sky Bar - Roof Terrace Gardens and Signature Restaurant. Further our design calls for the building pad to be further elevated by at least 5 feet.

There are many other steps that are being taken by the authorities to mitigate such flooding. One of the studies being looked into is the temporary diverting of flood waters to the empty rock quarry. There are some federal grants also available to fund this. The situation at Glenwood and Crabtree is further complicated by an aging design of how the flood waters are diverted back to the creek. Soleil Group, the local businesses including the mall have funded a study to resolve this issue. Our consultants and engineers have developed a plan that will greatly reduce flooding in this corridor. It remains to be seen if the City will step in and make the necessary improvements, if not then the local businesses will have to pony up the funds.


QUESTION 2
Thank you very much for all of this information. When might we see a groundbreaking on the new structure?


ANSWER 2
It is a race to getting our drawings done to get permits for construction. We hopw to break ground late Spring/early Summer 2007. Construction time frame est 24 months.



QUESTION 3
Mr. Walia,
Has the Soleil Group been active in recruiting businesses/HQs to the Soleil Center complex? What will be the signature restaurant?

Thanks


ANSWER 3
Many businesses have expressed an interest to move to the Soleil II complex. We will begin serious dialog 12 to 18 months after Soleil I is construction is underway. We are talking to celebrity chefs and fine dinning major steak and seafood chains.

Thanks for the update, Cary_NC. Please make sure that the UP admins do not mind you posting these comments here. I don't want you to get banned because of this ;)

Since I have had extensive talks with Mr Walia and Mr Mundra in the past, I know that Soleil Group is VERY serious about this project. I have seen many negative comments about this project over at UP and I am glad we don't get them here. Some people sound as if they want this project to fail. They want Soleil Group to put retail on the ground floor, yet they express concerns about the flooding. Bottom line is that Soleil Center is a GREAT project, and while not planned for downtown, it will connect the suburbs (i.e. Brier Creek) with the central areas better. It will boost activity in Crabtree Valley and - as Mr Walia implied - we may see the business community stepping up to the plate to address flooding issues and provide solutions. Creating some sort of connectivity between the core and the outskirts will not happen by sprawling, or focusing only on downtown. This is a win-win situation for our city and I am glad that one of the developers spoke up. If the new convention center had so many bumps - cost increases - imagine how tough it will be for a project like Soleil Center.

Again, glad to see some official response to the unsubstanciated rumors that some people like to spread, along with their negativity. Raleigh is slowly approaching a turning point and we must embrace some changes, however extreme they may feel today.

Thanks for the update, Cary_NC. Please make sure that the UP admins do not mind you posting these comments here. I don't want you to get banned because of this ;)

Since I have had extensive talks with Mr Walia and Mr Mundra in the past, I know that Soleil Group is VERY serious about this project. I have seen many negative comments about this project over at UP and I am glad we don't get them here. Some people sound as if they want this project to fail. They want Soleil Group to put retail on the ground floor, yet they express concerns about the flooding. Bottom line is that Soleil Center is a GREAT project, and while not planned for downtown, it will connect the suburbs (i.e. Brier Creek) with the central areas better. It will boost activity in Crabtree Valley and - as Mr Walia implied - we may see the business community stepping up to the plate to address flooding issues and provide solutions. Creating some sort of connectivity between the core and the outskirts will not happen by sprawling, or focusing only on downtown. This is a win-win situation for our city and I am glad that one of the developers spoke up. If the new convention center had so many bumps - cost increases - imagine how tough it will be for a project like Soleil Center.

Again, glad to see some official response to the unsubstanciated rumors that some people like to spread, along with their negativity. Raleigh is slowly approaching a turning point and we must embrace some changes, however extreme they may feel today.I asked Mr Walia to make a brief statement about Soleil, he wouldn't have even addressed Urban Planet, if it wasn't for me, am not bragging are anything, but I wanted him to put the rumors to bed, that's just the truth, am trying to get John Kane to post about his North Hills East project, but that's like pulling teeth, Mr Walia is very openminded and polite, real good guy,"very down to earth fella "and I support him 100% for this strong vision for Raleigh,NC.

RALBOI

Meant to thank you for asking so we could get the story from the horses mouth.

RALBOI, I want to thank you, as well, for taking the time to communicate with, and convince Mr Walia to post something in the Urban Planet. I have spoken to him several times in the past and I must agree, he is polite and down-to-Earth. Same holds true for his partner, Mr Sanjay Mundra. Unfortunately, I am not sure Mr Kane is along the same lines... I tried a few times to communicate with him, via emails, and expressed my support, but he never even bothered to reply :( He may be a nice guy in real life, I don't know, but I will be VERY surprised if he takes the time to post something in an urban forum.

As Cary_NC said, it is good to get the information from those involved with the project, as opposed to "critics", who draw conclusions without knowing the facts. Likewise, I remember when forumers would doubt the ability of Reynolds & Reynolds to deliver their Reynolds Tower project. After I spoke with David Reynolds I realized how tough it is to make even a project half the size to materialize. Things are not as simple as some people think. There are way too many parameters involved and it is impossible to cover all the bases prior to completion... There are always surprises that a developer has to be ready for.

Of course, it will be great to see something of larger scale, built by Soleil Group, rising above DT Raleigh's skyline ;) Maybe a 60-story tower, by 2012 :lol: Hopefully, Soleil Center will become success.

-@ Raleigh-NC... I hope this doesn't get me banned from Urbanplanet... But is it just me, or do does anybody else think that Urbanplanet is "over-moderated". Some things really aren't as serious as they make it out to be. They'll merge your threads with other people's threads and they're really ban-happy. You better not breathe too hard or risk getting banned. There also seems to be a lot of negativity over there. The main reason I visit there is because they have a very active Triangle section with almost 20,000 posts. Oh well, I'm off my soap box now.

-@ Raleigh-NC... I hope this doesn't get me banned from Urbanplanet... But is it just me, or do does anybody else think that Urbanplanet is "over-moderated". Some things really aren't as serious as they make it out to be. They'll merge your threads with other people's threads and they're really ban-happy. You better not breathe too hard or risk getting banned. There also seems to be a lot of negativity over there. The main reason I visit there is because they have a very active Triangle section with almost 20,000 posts. Oh well, I'm off my soap box now.


Everyone already knows that. Metroqueen is the most negative person over there. Everyone of his threads are negative about something. It's just a country club over there, With a bunch of ass kissers....and you know whos ass they're kissing.

RALBOI, I want to thank you, as well, for taking the time to communicate with, and convince Mr Walia to post something in the Urban Planet. I have spoken to him several times in the past and I must agree, he is polite and down-to-Earth. Same holds true for his partner, Mr Sanjay Mundra. Unfortunately, I am not sure Mr Kane is along the same lines... I tried a few times to communicate with him, via emails, and expressed my support, but he never even bothered to reply :( He may be a nice guy in real life, I don't know, but I will be VERY surprised if he takes the time to post something in an urban forum.

As Cary_NC said, it is good to get the information from those involved with the project, as opposed to "critics", who draw conclusions without knowing the facts. Likewise, I remember when forumers would doubt the ability of Reynolds & Reynolds to deliver their Reynolds Tower project. After I spoke with David Reynolds I realized how tough it is to make even a project half the size to materialize. Things are not as simple as some people think. There are way too many parameters involved and it is impossible to cover all the bases prior to completion... There are always surprises that a developer has to be ready for.

Of course, it will be great to see something of larger scale, built by Soleil Group, rising above DT Raleigh's skyline ;) Maybe a 60-story tower, by 2012 :lol: Hopefully, Soleil Center will become success."Well hey" I was very straight up with Mr Walia.I told him that people wore talking abunch of smack! about his project to the point, I was even lossing faith because he wasn't keeping his supporters in the loop and dropping the ball as far as public relations. In a city like Raleigh that's very important because alot of people are not use to doing things on a grand scale, so they fear new idea's and new things, so that's why you have to let people know what's going on with your vision because if you don't the public support will surley lose their's, if they had any from the start.

RALBOI

Meant to thank you for asking so we could get the story from the horses mouth.Thank you for thanking me man! nobody at urban planet.org bothered to thank me at all, but they sure as hell, don't have a problem removing my comments and providing me with no reason for why! I have no fear of getting banned! because, Have sent them messages before when I have certain issue's with them and they have cold heartly just not responded and I no darn well they received my message. This happens most of the time when am winning a debate or ripping someone else's argument to shreds with facts with certain members on the forum,after they have taken a cheapshot or said somthing real stupid ,and most of the time very inaccurate about Raleigh. But am not here to BASH! urban planet.org because they do have alot of good points SPAMING bascially is extinct over there and the organization is pretty good, it's more easy to find thing about certain topic's also in comparison to alot of other forums, I have visited so they have there good point also.

^^
You did the right thing. This is what I said to David Reynolds a few times in the past. It is fine to keep a low profile, but people want to know what's happening behind the scenes. The more they know, the more support they will offer to the developers when the time comes.

As for Urban Planet, it is a great place to post. Good quality forums, even though I must agree that the moderators are forced to apply some very strict rules. There have been some incidents that forced the creators of UP to create some unpleasant restrictions, but that is their right, since they provide others with a free service. The Triangle section of UP has a lot of activity, and I know that people are passionate about what is happening in Raleigh, but it is my opinion that those who want to remain optimistic and upbeat should visit SSC more often. The material we cover here is good enough, and we limit ourselves to a few threads instead of many little ones. What I love about the way SSC and SSP are designed is that we have the opportunity to represent our city to others and learn more about their areas. It is nice to have a Triangle-only section, but guess what will happen at the end: we'll find more ways to disagree than agree. This is the last thing I want to see here.

So, whenever you wish to forget about negativity and pointless debates, come here and enjoy. If you prefer a more focused discussion with other Triangle forumers, then UP is the best place to be. I must give credit to orulz for offering to moderate a separate section (that is how Triangle got its own area in UP, once more). He is a good guy, with lots of great ideas and willingness to discuss in a very civilized manner. I have met with him a few times, along with several other forumers, and I am pleased to say that UP has some good quality people posting there. Gladly, several forumers from UP also post here :)

^^
You did the right thing. This is what I said to David Reynolds a few times in the past. It is fine to keep a low profile, but people want to know what's happening behind the scenes. The more they know, the more support they will offer to the developers when the time comes.

As for Urban Planet, it is a great place to post. Good quality forums, even though I must agree that the moderators are forced to apply some very strict rules. There have been some incidents that forced the creators of UP to create some unpleasant restrictions, but that is their right, since they provide others with a free service. The Triangle section of UP has a lot of activity, and I know that people are passionate about what is happening in Raleigh, but it is my opinion that those who want to remain optimistic and upbeat should visit SSC more often. The material we cover here is good enough, and we limit ourselves to a few threads instead of many little ones. What I love about the way SSC and SSP are designed is that we have the opportunity to represent our city to others and learn more about their areas. It is nice to have a Triangle-only section, but guess what will happen at the end: we'll find more ways to disagree than agree. This is the last thing I want to see here.

So, whenever you wish to forget about negativity and pointless debates, come here and enjoy. If you prefer a more focused discussion with other Triangle forumers, then UP is the best place to be. I must give credit to orulz for offering to moderate a separate section (that is how Triangle got its own area in UP, once more). He is a good guy, with lots of great ideas and willingness to discuss in a very civilized manner. I have met with him a few times, along with several other forumers, and I am pleased to say that UP has some good quality people posting there. Gladly, several forumers from UP also post here :)I also think Orulz is a fair and balanced Moderator and my comments are not aimed at him or Chief JoJo who is a very smart fellow he is now the co moderator and he's going to do a Good job.

^^
Totally agree. I was pretty certain you were referring to the almighty M :lol:

Back to Mr Walia's comments, I am impressed that 200 people have expressed serious interest in buying a condo in Soleil Center. Of course, as the developer said, it is hard to convert those reservations to sales, but all they need to sell is about 20-25 units. In fact, I remember them saying that they will begin even if they sell 10 units - that was about the demolition, I think. So, I am confident that they have secured at least 10 sales. Another 10-15 and this project will be consider a success. Now, I must admit that if I was interested in one of those units, it would have been hard to come up with so much money, particularly without even seeing the unit. For me, it is too risky to buy high-end units without actually be able to see all the details, although I do not doubt Soleil group's quality partners.

I mentioned the reservations because I want to lead this post to another direction: North Hills East (NHE). Do you think that the proposed condo buildings in North Hills East may be able to accommodate some of those buyers who will not be able to get a unit in Soleil Center? It will be very interesting to see what the reservations/pre-sales will be for NHE. So far, The Lassiter has not impressed me, although it looks like it will be a nice building. The site layout leaves much to be desired, if you ask me. NHE, however, seems to be better conceived as a plan and it has massive potential. If Kane can go as high as ~30 floors/365ft, I see high-rise living becoming a very interesting option for North Raleigh. Sure, we all want to see all the high-rises grouped together in downtown, but this is not going to happen in Raleigh. All major cities have high-rise options outside their core. I wonder what Kane will do. What I see for Raleigh's future is several residential and mixed-use high-rises built in downtown. Developers will want to surpass everything outside the core of the city, so they won't allow Soleil Center and NHE to lead the way for long.

^^
Totally agree. I was pretty certain you were referring to the almighty M :lol:


I was referencing the 13th letter of the alphabet also :lol:. Orulz and ChiefJoJo are cool.

Metrozilla is a power-hungry ogre. Like the little boy in the episode of Twilight Zone who would zap you into a dung beattle if you thought or did something he didn't like, Metrozilla will ban you if you say anything he doesn't like. He mainly lords over the Charlotte boards, which I now avoid.

You guys are funny :lol:

I don't know if you follow the Hillsborough Str Plan, but here is a link to a WRAL story, with a video: Roundabouts May Be Out for Hillsborough Street Plan (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1169659/). Personally, I do not lament the loss of roundabouts, if they get excluded from the plan. To me, it boils down to a few "elitists" in the Hillsborough Street area, who want to see less traffic, regardless where that traffic will end up going. I used to be excited over the proposed renovation, but I must agree with Joyce Kekas. Improvements along Hillsborough Str do not have to include roundabouts. Glenwood South is a great example of what could be done to revitalize Hillsborough Str, without destroying traffic patterns and without pouring traffic on other streets. Reducing the lanes from 4 to 2 would be a serious mistake and the roundabouts will completely ruin our chances to see a future light rail along Hillsborough Str.

On the other hand, I think that major improvements can be made in the streetscapes department. Maybe there are 2-3 spots where roundabouts could help (i.e. the intersection of Hillsborough Str and Boylan Ave) but the city will have to make sure we could easily alter those roundabouts to have a light rail system go through them, or something like that. Call me insensitive, but I do not think that lowering the speed limit is necessary to make the place more attractive. Local businesses cannot benefit if the vehicular traffic gets reduced. What that area needs is additional parking, hopefully in a form that doesn't create an unattractive "feature". I wonder what NCSU wants to see done!

The roundabout plan was crap, it looked like the one at lowes. Those tiny roundabouts just slow down traffic because nobody knows what to do. Hillsborough street is already a clusterfuck at times for lack of better words, i dont think we need old ladys stopping to let somebody in the roundabout. (you know, the same one doing 35mph trying to merge on to 40)

I think that some people have confused roundabouts and revitalization. Traffic pattern changes in one area may become a nightmare for another. Next thing you know, there is minimal traffic and businesses do not get exposure. I think that looking at Glenwood South as a model would be a great idea. Instead of putting roundabouts everywhere, place a few more policemen along Hillsborough Str and some of the ongoing problems will be solved. Take that money and offer incentives to some businesses to relocate. Or, do whatever is necessary to help the Stanhope Village get built. There are a million things they can do to help revitalization. Then, as more businesses move along Hillsborough Str, the additional tax money will fund even more projects. How about Franklin Str, in Chapel Hill? I do not see that town making the street smaller in order to revitalize it. As much as I supported the roundabouts in the past, I truly don't want to see them now, except for 1-2 spots.

Don't know if you saw an interesting article in today's N&O, titled With a new chief, TTA tries again to tackle traffic (http://www.newsobserver.com/243/story/534406.html), but if you haven't let me post a little excerpt:
Still, the new transit plan could push TTA's ideas aside in favor of light rail or express bus service from booming suburbs such as Wake Forest and Brier Creek -- easing pressures along busy corridors where traffic conditions are far worse now than they looked to planners back in 1995.
Why is this important? Because Hillsborough Str could benefit from a light rail system. Connecting St Mary's, NCSU (main campus), Meredith and NCSU (veterinary school) would be a good idea. Add an easy "walking" path to the Wolfpack's football stadium and RBC Center and you will see how Hillsborough Str can be easily revitalized and become a center of activity, particularly after NCSU's [future] victories. Maybe I am going too far ahead, but it is possible, IMHO.

State of the City
Today, at noon, Mayor Meeker will address Raleigh residents in his annual state of the city luncheon, emphasizing downtown parking and greenways. Here is a WRAL-5 report, with a video: Raleigh Mayor To Outline Plan for City's Progress (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175124/).

Dorothea Dix Campus
An interesting debate over the future of Dorothea Dix campus will continue today, with yet-another discussion about the fate of the 300+ acres of the campus. WRAL-5 has a lovely video, as part of an online report titled Future of Dix Property Up For Discussion Monday (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175111/), which I strongly recommend you to watch. If anything, for the nice aerial around the 45th second of the video, showing the campus against the skyline ;)

Just came back from the state of the city luncheon and unfortunately I have nothing special to report :( The focus was on the greenway system - starting from Falls Lake - and parking regulations in downtown. Absolutely nothing essential other than the improved growth rate. Sounds like several projects are about to break ground, although we already knew about it. Someone who should know better than bringing forth dumb questions decided to mix Dorothea Dix and the State of the City, asking about the possibility of seeing the entire campus turn into a big park and only develop around it. The mayor explained - once more and for a millionth time - that this is the state government's decision, not the city's.

Today, I will take a break from screaming about the fate of Dororthea Dix campus and simply state some news. Evidently, more people jump on the bandwagon and offer ideas - good, or bad, it doesn't matter. Today's N&O had an article, titled Latest Dix idea focuses on park (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/535454.html), about one more proposal. Here is an excerpt:
Another plan for Dix Hill is making the rounds of some Raleigh VIPs this week.

The proposal, drawn up by John Hoal, a St. Louis, Mo.-based planner, calls for a major urban park on the site of the Dorothea Dix state hospital, with high-rise condominiums outside its borders.
Luckily, they also had a rendering that demonstrates the idea, so we can see better what the "vision" is all about:

http://newsobserver.com/content/politics/dix/story_graphics/20070124_dix.jpg

I will not be as critical of this plan, but if we had the ability to surround Dorothea Dix with very dense development and improve the pedestrian access to the park, then I wouldn't be as much against it. Those of us who have a clue about the landscape should be able to recognize the difficulties and the challenges of executing this plan. Not only they won't build any dense development around the park, but I am afraid they will turn the NCSU properties (West of Dorothea Dix) into another crap load of office buildings and other suburban structures. This proposal is not bad, just hard to implement.

moderator.. please delete... i posted in the wrong section.

moderator please delete... i posted in the wrong section.

:(

:(

I posted in the wrong section LOL

I was hoping someone wanted to respond... I know that I have expressed strong opinions and some people may choose not to post a different view, but in reality I am open to hear other opinions. I have been following this Dorothea Dix debate and I am sick and tired of this waste of time. Maybe someone here can propose an alternative plan.

I like the park idea, but more importantly the fact that this plan (I havent seen the others in detail) retains the hospital as a museum. The hospital-museum idea should remain as a top priority in establishing the park idea. It gives it something very much like the Castle in Chapultepec in Mexico City or even the buildings in Central Park and in the old Chicago World's Fair park.

Another idea that should be capitalized on is the view from the park of downtown. So many cities have parks that offer amazing views of their downtowns and Raleigh doesnt really have that.

One thing I liked about some of the proposals is the fact that they included high-density development. I would like to see some single family housing along one of the streets, but then that housing could turn into nice mid-rise housing with nothing over 13 stories. the only problem is that I dont know how or where to begin a plan to suit my ideas and i have no more knowledge of the park than a regular suburbanite in North Raleigh, meaning I dont know what would fit or not fit.

I think the property should become a park, but to me, just a park is underutilization of a prime location. Residential options could be made along the fringes of the park or even on some of the property itself. Some of that housing could be made affordable for NCSU students or recent grads and other college students like myself. (I am in Charlotte right now, but when i get out i am coming back) i think the idea of affordable yet classy housing that doesnt look cheap or fake is a good start.

Once again, I dont know as much as some of you guys about this property. I was just rambling on about what I would like to see onthis property. I really hope the property is created for multiuse and that the city plans this properly.

Best case scenario---

-Destination Park.
-Large condo/apartment developments on Centennial Campus land.
-Central Prison redevelopment plan comes to fruition.

This is thinking 10-20 years down the road. I here the calls for not wasting the prime land for development. However, there is a lot of underutilized land that could be developed before a lot of the pristine open space in the dix property. If the surrounding areas are utilized correctly (centennial campus and central prison) that will take care of development needs. If we don't save Dix as a park we will be kicking ourselves in 30 years for getting rid of the prime open space.

Plus a destination park could be connected to downtown by some sort of tram or walkway. That will only help the convention center attract more business.

My opinion, which has been stated before - forgive me for repeating the same thing - is that we can achieve a lot with 210 acres and that we do not need all 300+ acres for a central park. What I am for is strict use. In other words, if 210 acres will be open space, then let it be so and don't build anything on it. Personally, I do not like the idea of 300+ acres of park and here is why:

A destination park, as attractive as it may sound, doesn't generate profits any more than a shopping mall (in tax revenue) - no, I do not want to see a shopping center in the Dorothea Dix area.
Raleigh is not a tourist attraction and will not be for a VERY long time. Let's face it, there are no attractions in our city to "sell" to the tourists and a large park will not do much to improve the situation. If we need to create a destination park, then 210 acres should be more than sufficient, if used properly.
If Dorothea Dix becomes a huge park, then there will be no funds going to the state. If the City of Raleigh buys that area, then the cost of acquisition and maintenance will be prohibitive, but at least the state government will make some money off of this deal. The city's finances will suffer greatly. Given that the park will attract very few people from other, more populated areas of Raleigh, I do not see how the city can justify such purchase.
The ability to police a 300+ acres of park space will be minimal. Large parks can easily become magnets for criminal elements and illegal activity. To succeed in securing such a park will require tough penalties and lots of police presence. Add that to the cost of maintenance.
The positive side is that there is a lot of interest in creating a destination park. Raleigh can use something like that. It is noble that people want to fight for some open space and the mentally ill - two different groups of advocates, even though they may agree on several issues. Another positive is the involvement for creating a plan, therefore I am not 100% against the idea. However, let's consider the following:

Those who are genuinly interested in the mentally ill should advocate for the highest return possible. If we wish to honor Dorothea Dix, then let's put ALL the funds into a state-of-the-art facility, in an environment that will resemble Dorothea Dix hills, when first established. The campus used to be 1000 acres, in the outskirts of Raleigh. Why not do something similar. That is put the facilities in a comfortable and peaceful environment, somewhere in NE or SE Raleigh, where there is plenty of land, still.
Allowing for some decent urnan development doesn't mean that the area will lose its appeal and value. Revitalizing that side of Western Blvd is crucial to connecting other developing areas in SW Raleigh, and not only.
Always wondered why the 100%-park-space crowd is so unwilling to work with the rest of the people. Why do they need to have a "my way, or no way at all" attitude? It's not that the rest of the people do not care about parks and open space. In North Raleigh there are a lot of people who put similar fights and they normally make strong cases and win their fight.
Unlike NYC, Raleigh has been already blessed with a lot of green spaces. The nearby Pullen Park and the William Umstead State Park are really nice destinations and serve as true parks. Other parks feature artificial lakes (i.e. Lynn Lake, Shelley Lake) and they provide wonderful venues for those seeking some escape from routine. Raleigh cannot be as urban as today's bigger cities, nor it will lose all that green, particularly inside the Beltline. New communities are exceptions, but they are located mostly outside the central areas.
So, what would I suggest instead. First of all, I do like parks and neighborhood squares. I am totally against anything of suburban nature, therefore I do not wish to see some big-fish developers walking into this opportunity and build all sorts of crap. I will be very happy if 2/3's of Dorothea Dix is used for open space/destination park and the rest is developed in an urban fashion. Provided that the surrounding areas will NEVER see true urban development, let alone high-rise proposals - and you can rest assured this is 100% accurate- this is my wish list:
All the money, or 90% at worst, goes towards the mentally ill. If there is a way to honor Dorothea Dix, this is definitely the best one.
Sell the land to a group of developers who are willing to respect the reasons behind the land sale, and let them fund some of the park attractions.
The City of Raleigh, in cooperation with the State Government and other involved parties, should work hard to integrating any future urban development at Dorothe Dix Campus with the rest of the city. The guidelines should be truly urban and the uses must include a very diverse mix.
Encourage high-density development around the future park area, thus bringing more future visitors in the area - more tax revenue, as well. Depending on the mix, encourage some affordable housing, but nothing that smells poverty.
Create several small neighborhood parks (squares) in a fashion similar to Savannah. That way, we can create additional destinations between the rest of the area and the park - smooth transition. Although I favor high-rises, I so not care if none goes into Dorothea Dix. On the other hand, I would like to see some 5-6 story buildings along Lake Wheeler Rd. The closer we get to the park, the more common attractions we should see. Maybe an aquarium, or 1-2 smaller museums.
Of course, we can only speculate, but we cannot daydream about high-rise developments surrounding the park. If NCSU and the rest of the stakeholders can secure high-rise developments around there AND the 100%-park crowd is willing to pay for the purhase of the land and the maintenance costs for the next 20 years, then I am all for a park. Somehow, I fear that we will end up getting crap. Nobody likes endless debates, thus it should not surprise us if interested developers decide to pull out. Then, the state will sell the land to the highest bidder and simply get rid of it. Time is money. Those who support the idea of a huge park have some valid points and concerns. The ULI proposed something that is decent and should please most. The City of Raleigh did the same. The question is simple: Do we want the mentally ill to benefit from this deal. What is the best case scenario for them, except for staying in an outdated and depressing environment?

By the way, thanks for sharing your ideas :okay:

Raleigh-NC have you even begun to think of running for City-Council? I mean really, your above post is well laid out and provides points for both sides of the deal. You at least should present this to those in charge of the Dix development.

I am in full agreement that parts of the park should be urban in nature. A nice mid-rise neighborhood, with the inclusion of the Savannah-like squares, and a museum or two would utilize the land at a maximum, while retaining a good protion for a park.

blah, wrong section... it's contagious

to get on topic, it'd be cool if they had a Western Blvd route of a Raleigh rail that served both Dix Park, Pullen Park, State, and out to the RBC, then back DT to the Convention Center (so Cabarrus to Western to Blue Ridge to Trinity)

Thanks for your confidence, Rufus :) Unfortunately, I am very inpatient, by nature, and can't deal with single-issue groups nicely, which would dramatically decrease my chances. If I was in charge of the development at Dorothea Dix, I would simply tell groups like the Dix Visionaries that I had enough of their sh*t and the first thing I would try to expose is the true motives behind such groups. To me, it takes more than one side to achieve balance, and single issue groups don't serve the best interests of the city. I admire the work done by the park-only supporters, but it is neither realistic nor wise to close the door to major investments. What concerns me the most, and in many ways bothers me, is that the Dix Visionaries do not seem to be genuinely concerned about the mentally ill - I have heard several of them talking, before. The sale is about providing better services to those who need them, not to serve the desires of those who don't. Logically, it would be a huge mistake to develop the whole area. Personally, I do not care, but it would be short-sighted and selfish - with my allergies, a huge park is the last place I would like to go, as much as I like parks :( Again, it bothers me that certain groups are so unwilling to compromise, but I am truthfully happy that some people resist any sort of sell-out. I wish there was a group that could fight for a more responsible and balanced use of Dorothea Dix, and make sure that the profits go to the mentally ill, not to pay off the debts created by irresponsible politicians.

[Got carried away and posted downtown-related stuff here... Yes, it is contagious :lol:]

roguejam, that is a nice find :okay: I just saw it, and since it is dark nothing is visible. I am really happy that someone placed a camera, even though I will be walking by there more than 2-3 times a week :) Today, I was downtown and I saw MANY cocrete trucks pouring concrete to the foundation of RBC Plaza, or something like that. Can't wait to see the first few floors rising from the ground. They should have one floor done every week, if I am not mistaken. So, by summertime we should see something around 15 floors, and by the end of summer the whole thing must have topped out, thus changing the skyline before even 2008 :) By the end of 2007, West At North should have topped out, as well, and if we are lucky, the Marriott Hotel, too.

Anyone of you guys went downtown today? Let me tell you, I was very impressed with the traffic. My wife and I had coffee at Crema and went to the museum for the space exhibit. The number of kids was AMAZING!!! Sure, they don't represent urban living, but they are exposed to the "big city" amenities. The only problem was on street parking, but who cares? The weather was very nice, indeed. I forgot to mention that we did some shopping at the Capital City Grocery. We got some steaks, coffee and catfood, just to give them our support. I truly hope that they last long enough to see the residents poutring into that area. If they can handle another 1-2 years of slow business, they will do fine. Visibility - lack thereof - is a major issue for this store and I do not see how they can fix this. Even though we live in North Raleigh, we try to get at least the meat from them. Can someone please tell me why they decided to put wine in their store? With a wine merchant across from there it is a very strange move on their part.

Some Brier Creek Village Center stuff:

These are the two apartment homes that are in the middle of being built.

http://altmanapartments.com/index.html
This website is pretty impressive but the apartments going up don't look nearly as nice as most on the site.

http://www.alexanbriercreek.com/
Not much on this, was tempted to email to get the rental rates.

Then of course there are the Toll brothers condo's going up.

The stores have the parking lots in and that is about it, some cement is down but very little. What is going on across the street right behind the golf course is interesting. There are no signs up and no entrance at all for cars to get into it. The only sign is a public hearing on the land. The number was SP 6906 but my search came up with nothing.

I was at Brier Creek today, but time constraints didn't allow me to check out the progress in the Village Center. I still do not understand why the developers do not produce some more promotional material :( The apartments under construction are nowhere near as urban as I was hoping, but a far cry from the typical garbage all over the place.

Dorothea Dix
Another N&O story about the ongoing battle to determine the future of Dorothea Dix campus: Many options, little time for Dix plan (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/539675.html). Make sure you read the "Related Content" list, in the sidebar to the right of the column. I am sure many of you have already seen the signs of the "Dix 306" group that have been placed all over the NIMBY-dominated areas (i.e. Cameron Village, Five Points). Too bad there is no organized opposition to present the other side of the story :( I would not go as far as put a sign on my lawn, but I would certainly support such group with my "vote". By the way, I drove by my usual route and saw one of those signs on a common area, in our neighborhood. I will see to it that it gets removed ASAP, or I will take it upon myself and remove that stupid sign.

Raleigh's soul
In yesterday's N&O there was a very interesting article, which I think presents the real picture: A city of politics, cafeterias (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/539670.html). O.k., it makes Raleigh look more like a small city, but it certainly explains to some people what "soul" actually means. I am one of those individuals who doesn't subscribe to the theory that equates "soul" with "hippness" and "urban" - I know that I am in the minority - and I get upset every time I read/hear about the connection of "grit" and "poverty" with "soul". That is not what I believe, and while I won't fight over this opinion, I will not back down, either. Just because many of us have white-colar jobs and don't hang out in hip clubs doesn't mean we have no soul. We, too, are part of the urban fabric. Raleigh does have a soul, and we don't have to erase it so others can like us more... IMHO.

From the N&O, now it seems like NC State is not interested (http://www.newsobserver.com/620/story/518637.html) in a land swap with Dorthea Dix's field (http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/540215.html). Personally, I would rather it still be a field. If anything is built towards DT, have it no taller than the tree line as to keep the view. I think a baseball stadium (if somehow we could land a team) would be good in the Dix area, but not in the field.

I can see why NC State doesn't want it. Unless you can somehow connect Centennial to Main campus (between WRAL and Dix, but not across from Pullen Park), I don't see how State would benefit. Being able to build on the section between Nazareth (road on W boundary of WRAL), Western, Centennial Parkway, and a Pullen Road extension, dorms there would be very good for both campuses. I could see that as really being the only scenario where my school would, in a heartbeat, take a land swap for land.

I am for a large park.....with mid to high rise development around it. I am not for an all park though. That is just stupid.

I am not worried about it....I guarantee that will not happen....because everything is about money....and a 100% park will make the city no money!

Don't worry about....let the hippies moan and groan all they want....it will get them nowhere......like it alway does. :cheers:

I totally agree that the "parkies" will not have it their way at the end. There is one problem, though. While I do appreciate their input and admire their work, I am concerned about their causing delays. The decision makers will have to listen to a non-stop bitching and moaning, without a single group of concerned citizens voicing a different opinion. It is ridiculous. ULI came here, looked at the sugegstions, studied the existing conditions and proposed something nice. The Dix306.org crowd continues to make noise and appears to be more vocal than should be tolerated, IMHO. I love how they suggest high-rises around the park, yet they know VERY well that this will not happen. I begin to wonder if some of the loudest ones own land nearby. If a 300+ acres park is formed, who stands to benefit the most? Exactly, people who own land near the park. If no money will be made in this deal, the mentally ill will never receive anything at all. The "parkies" don't seem to understand that :ohno:

It took me a while but I finally got to post something about Hillsborough Str:

http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_306_200_0_43/http%3B/pt03/DIG_Web_Content/category/Business/Strategic_Planning/Plans_in_Process/Cat-1C-20041208-082751-Hillsborough_Street_Rede.html

Some good information, plus a presentation (link appears in the above page, under "Recent Developments:"). Certainly some nice suggestions, with a mention of light rail ;)

Some Brier Creek Village Center stuff:

These are the two apartment homes that are in the middle of being built.

http://altmanapartments.com/index.html
This website is pretty impressive but the apartments going up don't look nearly as nice as most on the site.

http://www.alexanbriercreek.com/
Not much on this, was tempted to email to get the rental rates.

Then of course there are the Toll brothers condo's going up.

The stores have the parking lots in and that is about it, some cement is down but very little. What is going on across the street right behind the golf course is interesting. There are no signs up and no entrance at all for cars to get into it. The only sign is a public hearing on the land. The number was SP 6906 but my search came up with nothing.

Check out www.alexanbriercreek.com as it's now a compete site.
A small 1 bedroom is 900 a month.

Very nicely designed web page, but these people are full of sh*t. They show an image with Raleigh's [partial] skyline and then in the Photos section they show a couple looking at some high-rises, as if this is an urban project. That is hillarious :lol: Somebody has to tell these people that they are very far from creating urban communities. Such thing would take common sense, imagination and less greed.

Thanks for the link, though. Sorry for sounding negative, but I was expecting a much better community. I took some photos last week, but I do not dare posting them :(

I don't really care too much what the apartments look like, it's the main street that will be interesting.

Yes, the main street should be far more interesting. I must admit that some good work has been done up in Brier Creek when it comes to the roads. Most of them are pretty attractive. The best part is that some day, when these apartment buildings will have outlived their usefulness, it won't be hard to replace them with something better. Maybe a mix of condominium mid-rises and townhomes ;)

Back to North Hills, the battle is about to begin. Check this N&O article, first: North Hills in fight for financing (http://www.newsobserver.com/114/story/544836.html). Now, let me state that I have no position on this, whatsoever. I have heard all sorts of bullcrap from both sides, and I am not convinced that either side is a winner. Things can go either way, as far as I can see. I really appreciate what John Kane has done for the city - the New North Hills is a great step to the right direction - and I want him to succeed. First, he is a local developer. Second, he took HUGE risks in order to redevelop an area that was much in need for a major facelift. Third, he became a pioneer and provided guidelines for, and inspired other developers - that should be the job of the city, not a developer's. Last, it is a DAMN GREAT vision for redeveloping the area to the East :okay: However, I do not understand how in the Earth does John Kane expect the city to "loan" him $75 million. This is incredibly difficult for Raleigh's limited resources.

In the aforementioned article there are a few interesting parts that I would like to share with y'all:

The debt works like this: The land would be designated as a special tax district. A base property value is set for the district, and tax revenue based on that value would go to the city and county. Any revenue above that amount, generated by increases in the property's value, would be used to repay the debt. Any money left over could be used as the local governments saw fit.Is it a good deal, or a bad deal? Will it work like this, or will it not? Personally, I have gotten more confused than ever before, so I will provide no comments on the above. Anyone who is more familiar with TIF's, please feel free to step in and clarify.

Kane says he'll move forward with a $120 million to $140 million project, instead of an $800 million project, if he doesn't get the help. The bigger project would generate $500 million in taxes over 50 years, he said.Now, wait a minute, Mr Kane. This is a HUGE difference in the final costs. I find it very hard to believe that a $75 million structure will have such a tremendous effect. We are talking about $660-$680 million difference. I am not sure I like the sound of it :(

Last month, developers of the Soleil Center, the 42-story tower planned near Crabtree Valley Mall, said the tool should be available to their project if North Hills gets it. To do otherwise, their letter says, would put the Soleil Center at an economic disadvantage.Can't blame Soleil Group for saying that. They asked for nothing and they offered a lot. I am sure you have noticed the slow progress at the Soleil Center site, and I wonder if John Kane's request has something to do with it. Are the developers waiting to see what the city is going to do with NHE before they move on? Sure, they are making some minor changes in the tower, along with some environmental impact work, but I suspect there are more reasons behind this delay.

Both Isley and Kane say Meeker doesn't support the project because he doesn't like North Hills.

"I think this entire issue has been driven by Charles' distrust or dislike of John Kane's project," Isley said. "Because of this animus against one particular project, we're really going to shut ourselves out of having a policy."

Meeker said that's not so. "North Hills has been a great success, and I am hopeful that North Hills East will do as well," he said.It is such a coincidence that none of those who voted No have any ties to North Raleigh. I would not go as far as saying that Meeker is anti-North Raleigh, or anti-North Hills, but up to this point I am not impressed with his record when it comes to North Raleigh. The crap the City Council has approved in the last few years will have a negative impact in the future of our city and I do not see the opponents of the North Hills East TIF having done anything to minimize the damage. They spend more time debating developments for their districts than anything located in North Raleigh. Thus, the "accusation" is correct. John Kane received crap from the city, although he created a MAJOR success story for Raleigh. Some city officials even killed his twin midrise proposal for the SW corner of Lassiter and Six Forks roads, because a committee decided that they wanted to see an 136ft buffer between the buildings and the streets :bash: With this kind of attitude, it is hard not to label Meeker anti-North Hills.

Does anyone feel that this refusal may be the result of Isley, Kekas, Craven and Talliafero saying No to the Hillsborough Str roundabouts? I wonder if we are going to have two camps fighting over the future projects. One more thing: if Meeker, Crowder, etc. feel it's o.k. to use public funds to finance about 33% (>$20 million) of the convention hotel, then I see no fault in "loaning" money to John Kane. Oops, I forgot... Kane is not building in downtown, or SE Raleigh :(

The Raleigh City Council approved a plan to put two roundabouts in the Hillsborough Street area.
http://wral.com/news/local/story/1209006/
The new plan will bury utilities in a five-block area, create mroe than 200 on-street parking spaces on both sides of Hillsborough Street and provide a median to help students cross the street safely. The plan is supported by N.C. State and most businesses and residents in the area.
I probably will graduate before it's done, but it would be nice to not have to play Frogger whenever you want to go to the North side of the street.

To keep with the area, I took a few pictures today while waiting for the Wolfline bus. You can look at the Carmichael Expansion (South side (http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jamcguir/SSC/Carmichael_Expansion_S.jpg),East side (http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jamcguir/SSC/Carmichael_Expansion_E.jpg)). Across the street is the construction (http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jamcguir/SSC/Derr_Track_Dali_Stadium.jpg) on the new Derr Track (http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jamcguir/SSC/Derr.jpg) and the brand new Dail Softball Stadium (http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jamcguir/SSC/Dail_Stadium_Reynolds.jpg), with Reynolds in the background

And finally, the view of DT Raleigh on Feb 6th from DH Hill Library (9th floor)
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~jamcguir/SSC/DT_from_DH_Hill.jpg

Thanks for the construction updates. The skyline photo is great, too :okay: I need to get up there and take some photos :)

Out of boredom, I decided to share a couple of links that provide some positive news, I think.

Crabtree Towne Center (former Galleria): Crabtree condos, offices to be built - Construction to begin next year (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/546264.html)
New plans call for 256,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space. There will be about 450 apartments and condos. It also plans about 150,000 square feet of offices.

Construction could begin early next year and wrap up in 2010.
The Lassiter: N. Hills homes progressing (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/546197.html)
Kane plans to break ground this summer on a 49-unit condominium development, The Lassiter at North Hills, northwest of Six Forks and Interstate 440. This week, Kane broke ground on Ramblewood at North Hills, which is to include 84 condominiums, 39 townhouses and 18 single-family homes southwest of I-440 and Six Forks.

Out of boredom, I decided to share a couple of links that provide some positive news, I think.

Crabtree Towne Center (former Galleria): Crabtree condos, offices to be built - Construction to begin next year (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/546264.html)

The Lassiter: N. Hills homes progressing (http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/546197.html)

Sounds like a great project!:)