first of all, we need to look at outside companies adn cater to their needs. no use in just trying to move money around the same location. we need to go out and market the city and try to draw big businesses in. thata how you build a downtown.

but if you want to more local HQ's to teh downtown area, you forgot one that i think is numebr to on the most likely to move downtown. associated bank i would say is the #1 but i say Shopko would be the next big business in line to make the move downtown. in fact i would not be surprise if associated bank and shopko went in and built a building together and extra floors for other smaller buinesses.

waht do you guys think

Hey GB Roots- I think Shopko is an excellent idea. I am not sure of thier status now since they have been bought out.

Astor Place- I read in the paper the other day that A'Bravo is now moving to Belluevue, (sorry I dont have the link available). I am assuming they are not going to Astor Place anymore. Unless they plan on both locations.

^^First, Astor Place is closer to becoming reality than ever before. The developer agreement has been signed recently. Vetter has control of the lot. The city is removing their property (namely the landscaping). No excavating yet but that would come next. I don't know about A'Bravo though. That's was supposed to be on the ground floor. I heard about Starbucks moving in. I will guess that it was a pre-emptive strike by Starbucks to drive A'Bravo out.

Large corporation development
I'm crossing my fingers---but not holding my breath--that a large company might analyze some of the empty parcels and make the choice to build on them. I see many ways a corporation could benefit from building big on Site 4. I hope the city is working hard to bring in one of these as a "ringer". A large corporation HQ to complement everyting else that is starting to happen would be a home run for the city.

I'll put the best odds on Associated Bank, but Shopko is interesting too. Isn't Shopko under new, non-local ownership though?

Although a bit cheesy- I think it would be nice to get one of our media channels -either TV or Radio to have a street level broadcast either from site 4 or River Center. I have lived in a couple cities where this is done and people seem to enjoy it. Maybe they could get WBAY to go down there.

Although a bit cheesy- I think it would be nice to get one of our media channels -either TV or Radio to have a street level broadcast either from site 4 or River Center. I have lived in a couple cities where this is done and people seem to enjoy it. Maybe they could get WBAY to go down there.

The only thought I have on this is: What about all of the antennas and satellite dishes? Site 4 could be a major part of the skyline and I don't think a bunch of big satellite dishes would look good at all. How did those other cities TV stations address that? If those can be tastefully obscured or placed off-site, that would be great. I think CBS Ch. 5 could use a new, expanded, more prominent location.

EDIT: Wait, I think what you mean is to do broadcasts there, not to build their station building there. OK. Cool. Maybe in a couple of years when the boardwalk is finished.

speaking of the boardwalk, would anyone know when that is to be constructed? I was downtown a bit this past weekend and I think that would enhance the city so much more.

Corporate HQs

I wouldn't hold my breath for ShopKo. First, they've been bought by a non-local group. Second, they have been contracting their workforce, not expanding it. And third, they have no money. Maybe some day if they become profitable again and need to expand their HQ, but that won't be for some time.

If the city could attract a non-local business to move their HQ to GB and build downtown, that would be a major coup. It's pretty hard for a city like GB to compete for corporations of that size though. I'm not saying don't try, but the best return on investment in trying to get something like that here is to help grow new businesses in the area, not to import them. Entrepreneurship is a key to downtown growth.

A'Bravo

I saw that too about them moving to Bellvue. I'm not sure what that means. It seems logical that if they are preparing to move into Astor Place that they may not want two locations that close together, or it could mean they aren't involved with Astor Place any longer. I'll assume they'll be in Astor Place until I hear otherwise, I've never heard that opening in Astor Place meant closing their other location.

Astor Place Prep

Very good to see them making the site ready for Astor Place. Still a fair bit to do before groundbreaking. The removal of landscaping needs to be completed, including a very substancial tree, the utility boxes along the river need to be relocated, and most importantly Washington St. needs to be straightened. Good to have progress to keep track of though.

TV Studio

That would be pretty fun to have a studio in one of the riverfront buildings. Seems that it would be great of one of the morning shows (particularly Fox-11's), and other shows such as one of the Packer player shows and that sort of thing. I guess that is the sort of development that would follow and active riverfront, not lead it. I think River Center would be the most logical place for something like that.

Boardwalk Construction

Construction of the boardwalk will follow the development of riverfront properties. Construction needs to take place to create the TIF to fund the walk. With Astor Place beginning construction in November, I'd guess we'll see work begin on the north end of the boardwalk next spring or summer. Work won't continue to portions of the boardwalk further south until there is development there to support that.

Here's something I've seen in print several years ago, used to "sell" Green Bay:

[I]Green Bay: Located in Northeast Wisconsin, just two hours north of Milwaukee, Green Bay offers an unparalleled quality of life with urban amenities, natural beauty and culturally diverse communities. With a population of more than 100,000, Green Bay is home to five Fortune 500 companies and two medical centers which rank among America's Top 100. While it has gained fame for its NFL team, the Green Bay Packers, the area also is recognized for its superior education system, low crime rate, outdoor recreational opportunities and community pride, making it one of Reader's Digest's "50 Best Places to Raise a Family" and the No. 1 midsize city in Inc. Magazine's "Best Places for Doing Business in America 2005."

However we've lost the status of having 5 Fortune 500 companies based here now:

1) WPS was just purchased by Peoples out of Chicago

2) I'm guessing another was Fort Howard which was purchased by Georgia-Pacific a few years ago.

3) Shopko (was this a 500 company?) was purchased by non-locals.

4) Schneider National

5) and I suppose Schrieber Foods brought the list to 5

We only have 2 fortune 500 companies left now? Well, the good news is that GB still has a reputation of being a great place to start and grow a business. The corporate giants of the past are mostly gone (sold out) but let's wait and see if there are any new up-and-comers who could build or share a nice new HQ building downtown.

Restaurant gains bigger space, more employees

By Lee Reinsch link (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060901/GPG03/609010596/1247/GPGbusiness)
lreinsch@greenbaypressgazette.com

BELLEVUE — After seven years in downtown Green Bay, restaurateur Julie Brunette is moving a'Bravo, her upscale restaurant, deli and catering business, to Bellevue.

The new, expanded a'Bravo will open at 2069 Central Court, Suite 77, inside London Alley on Sept. 8. It was at 1425 Main St., Green Bay.

The move will expand the eatery's hours, offerings and payroll. It will seat 60 guests and measure 2,800 square feet — twice its current size. It will add two cooks and 12 servers, up from five employees.

Hours will be 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. six days a week. It also will be open Sunday nights following home Packers games.

The new a'Bravo will serve breakfast and dinner as well as its signature lunches, plus wine, beer, wine freezes and Sangrias. It will continue to be "fine food in a casual atmosphere," with items ranging from $4.50 for soup to $17 for an entrée.

Brunette's menu consists of classy but not fussy items, like Caprese salad and chicken artichoke wraps.

"I don't want it to be a place where people go just on their birthdays or special occasions," she said.

Two things are driving the move southeast: space and parking. With goals of increasing her corporate catering, Brunette will need more parking for food pick-ups and for her staff to load the vans.

In November 1999, Brunette, 39, moved a'Bravo into part of the former Green Bay Canning Co. on Main Street.

While lunch business was "phenomenal," she frequently heard customers say they'd like a bit more privacy. And with only a few tables at the Main Street site, that was impossible.

"People never know whether they can get a table or not," she said.

She had planned on moving a'Bravo into the planned Astor Place condominium development downtown on the Fox River before the Bellevue opportunity came up. She hasn't ruled out an "a'Bravo Express" downtown, with a limited menu.

Well I guess that answers our question. She probably didn't want to wait any longer. Too bad, I guess. Bellevue is becoming another Ashwaubenon, hopefully they make it much more pedestrian friendly... I guess who am I kidding.

I agree that ShopKo doesn't make sense; they are struggling a bit to compete in today's marketplace, between the Wal-Marts and the Targets, and are closing more stores than they are opening right now. One other consideration not previously mentioned: there may be some benefit for them to remain located across the street from their "flagship" store at Bay Park Square.

Many of our top employers are manufacturers or food processors that don't fit well downtown -- Packerland Packing, Georgia Pacific, GB Dressed Beef, KI, and Procter & Gamble.

Schneider does have a newish building that suits their needs well and is easily accessible for their trucks. The one thing that might entice Schneider to build downtown would be the opportunity to consolidate their operations -- their large Schneider Logistics segment rents space on Hansen and Oneida in Ashwaubenon. However, they have such unique needs for the type of space (have you ever seen their main associate space -- it's huge and open) and they've invested much in technology at their current site, so I don't see it happening.

Dick Resch has been such a benefactor in the community that I'm sure that he'd at least consider helping a tower get off the ground, but I can't imagine it would make much business sense to move away from the manufacturing facility in Bellevue. But who knows, maybe they're outgrowing their office space, and it's not exactly the snazziest part of town (across from a trailer park and near the East River floodplains).

I wonder if a growing company with multiple sites in the hinterlands would consider making a move to the "big time" in downtown Green Bay. However, in looking at employer information for Door, Calumet, Kewaunee, and Oconto Counties, I don't see any obvious choices. Some of the biggest companies build boats and ships, and they wouldn't move here. And any options to the west and southwest would probably choose Appleton over Green Bay if they wanted to move.

How about AMS building a new corporate headquarters. . . oh, wait, we already screwed that up.

Maybe the Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin could consolidate their operations in a thirty story building. And then take it off the tax rolls.

About the Fortune 500 Companies, I tried to post this last night but was getting lame errors. Also, too bad about A'Bravo. I guess that's the way to cookie crumbles.

-----

That article can't be more than a couple of years old because the Inc.
Magazine ranking was in 2005, so maybe the 2004 Fortune 500. I'm trying to figure out what a 5 would be (behold my stream-of-consciousness as I google various things!).

WPS (395 in '04) is one for sure (gone for now). Looks like ShopKo (469) was on the 2003 list and just off in '04 (502) and '05 (542, see a trend?), so there's one I guess. When did GP buy Fort James? Fort James wasn't based in GB, but could they have counted that? Schneider isn't a publicly traded company so isn't on the Fortune 500 list. Same goes for Schrieber. Maybe they are counting companies like Humana (based in Louisville), Pacificare (AMS) or GP that aren't based here but are major employers.

I don't think there are really 5 in the Green Bay metro. Schneider and Schrieber probably would be if they were public. Add ShopKo and WPS makes 4. I could be missing something, maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

KI may not be a fortune 500 company and they may not want to build downtown; but, I can't think of any company based in GB that has stepped up to the plate more then them in recent years with corporate donation naming rights i.e. the KI Convention Center and the Resch Center. Also, the Oneida Indians seem to do a lot of event sponsorship.

....(behold my stream-of-consciousness as I google various things!).....


I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this!

As for what the 5 companies were, I never knew either. It is (or was) somewhat remarkable, though, that little old Green Bay had more Fortune 500 companies than some entire states had.

As for downtown HQ's I'll pin my hopes on smaller to mid-sized companies putting up nice structures. They don't necessarily have to scrape the sky, just as long as they have "downtown-type qualities": good pedestrian/street interface, nice architecture, etc.

I guess I had always figured that even tall buildings would have to include many tenants instead of just one primary HQ of a big company. I think we had this discussion in the past when I proposed putting a tower (http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/tower_concept.htm) on Washington St (on the mall site). I think our conclusion was that it's possible to build tall/big under these circumstances (smaller businesses), but that it would require someowe with the gonads and finances to bankroll it on speculation. Someone like that Dudley fella in Wausau. I don't know the Kresses, Resches, other "civic-minded" people around GB...Are any of them into downtown development like what we are discussing here?

I question if that statement is true (the one about GB havng 5 Fortune 500 companies). I'm not sure that Green Bay ever had 5 Foutune 500 companies here at one time, at least in the sense most people would define it. To me, if someone says that their city is home to a Fortune 500 company, that means the company HQ is there. My guess is that they were including companies that are not headquartered in Green Bay but employ a lot of people here (such as GP and Humana). Maybe I'm wrong.

Now, I don't think it makes one bit of difference how many Fortune 500 companies are HQd here. We are home to some very good companies, enough to do a metro of our size proud.

As for downtown, I'd agree that we don't need ultra-tall buildings with one big company occupying the whole thing. I mean, Nicolet Bank isn't that huge of a bank, but they've built a very nice building that feels relatively urban (could be better, but I won't complain one bit) and has brought a lot of people and money into the downtown. It would be nice to have several tall buildings, but many 3 and 4 story buildings with zero-setback can make for a very nice urban feel.

It is too bad Midwest Communications is building a newer building out in Bellevue. Here is the webcam link. Cam (http://mironconst.oxblue.com/cam3/)

I believe they moved out of the WBAY building. It would of been nice to see them build downtown rather then their $4.7 HQ in Bellevue.

Schneider National would unlikely move downtown and there has been rumblings of adding another wing to the CBC and moving Logistics back to the company HQ. The building was originally desgined with expansion in mind.

Sprawl, modern living endanger family farm (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060905/GPG03/609050448/1978)

Interesting story. It goes beyond sprawl into a range of other issues that pressure the family farm, but it helps illustrate why tall buildings downtown are of value beyond just being tall. Lets say, between Astor Place, River Center, and Riverfront Lofts (about 200 condo units total) you get 40 buyers who otherwise would build a McMansion on 3 acres in the country. That 120 acres!

Preserving the farm heritage and culture in Wisconsin is important, and while three condo buildings alone won't save the family farm, we must seek these sorts of developments as one step towards slowing sprawl.

^^Excellent post, Dan

This is another good reason to advocate the Downtown. We all have our reasons for being attracted to downtowns. Some of us like to be able to park once (or maybe even not at all) and easily walk from place to place--ranging from cultural activities, unique shopping, and a choice of multiple restaurants and bars. Unique places, close together. No seas of parking lots. No major multi-lane traffic pedestrian barriers. Life takes place on foot, after all.

I think you could include the salvation of our downtown as preservation of our heritage as well.

Unfortunately, GB's downtown has lost so much already...Too much has already been torn down to put in parking lots.

And despite the recent progress and overwhelming support of proposed downtown projects, there are still some people (city leaders included) who seem to either deny or reject the fact that a lot of people actually like urban downtown experiences, and that sprawl isn't always the best way to grow a city. They don't seem to accept the fact that investing in downtown is not necessarily a drain on taxpayer dollars; that it can be a good investment for the city because there is a large contingent of people who want that type of lifestyle, work environment, or entertainment.

Thought you guys might want to watch this thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=391526) on outsider's impressions on downtown Green Bay

Obviously we know who the client is in this one. The page does give a little more details about the proposed twin tower condo development proposed for Green Bay - as well as a little sneak peek at the rendering in the heading bar. I know if will never happen but interesting none the less...

Link to page (http://www.prarch.com/portfolio/project.aspx?id=382)

Here's a rendering that I was able to get from the site of the towers, not the best image quality but...

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/towers.jpg

Obviously we know who the client is in this one. The page does give a little more details about the proposed twin tower condo development proposed for Green Bay - as well as a little sneak peek at the rendering in the heading bar. I know if will never happen but interesting none the less...

Link to page (http://www.prarch.com/portfolio/project.aspx?id=382)

Intersting find, we haven't heard too much about this lately. Did you just stumble upon this?? I noticed that the planned hotel over in that area is starting to go up and I thought there was talk of a sports bar/brew pub in that area. Maybe it will work out, but my hopes aren't too high.

Intersting find, we haven't heard too much about this lately. Did you just stumble upon this?? I noticed that the planned hotel over in that area is starting to go up and I thought there was talk of a sports bar/brew pub in that area. Maybe it will work out, but my hopes aren't too high.

I guess you could say stumbled upon it. I heard a rumor who the architecture firm was that was working on this proposal and went to their web site and there you go. I also heard a rumor who the architecture firm was that is working on the Daily Planet site as well, yet nothing as of yet to report...

It is good to see the Cambria Suites taking shape, yet they are a long way until done. Hopefully that area will remain strong while things develop (whenever they develop). It was a shame to see Perry's Diner close down.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm hoping for another "Good Morning Downtown" get-together sometime soon...like in the next month or so. It's been many months since the last one.

I see many topics of great interest that could be presented/discussed. For example: Astor Place is about to be built.....The plans for the Boardwalk are being solidified..(where are we at with this right now?).... I'd love to hear from John Vetter about progress/news on RiverCenter and how those plans are shaping up. Maybe the new owners of the Bellin Building could present something. Etc.

There are a lot of topics that could be covered. I think a lot of people are wondering what's up. It's been 2 years since the big Vetter proposals were first presented. The turnout for these meetings has always been good.....

So, did I argue a good case for it? I know these are a lot of work for the organizers, but they sure are fun.

here is the Downtown Green Bay news letter. small but none the less more news for development downtown....

Heroes is now known as "South End Pub & Grill." The business located at 401 S. Washington Street has been purchased by Carrie Laverdiere and opens today at 2 p.m. Hours are 2 p.m. to close- M-F and 11 a.m. to close- Sat. & Sun. Lunch service begins in October.

We received excellent feedback from the pre-season Downtown Park & Ride to home Packer Games. PARK FREE downtown and for $10 a coach bus with a restroom delivers you to the South end zone. Tickets are available this week at Bosse's for the 3:15 Bear Game on Sunday. The buses leave from S. Washington St., the Cherry Ramp and N. Washington St. at 1:45 p.m. and return 45 minutes after the Packer victory. Two sets of bus tickets are available to the first two people to send a reply email to jeffm@downtowngreenbay.com

Green Bay Community Theatre- "You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown" Sept. 7-9 and 13-17 Shows start at 7:30 p.m., Sat. includes a 4 p.m. show. Week two includes a 2 p.m. Sunday show. This is the newest version of the lively Broadway musical that all ages can enjoy. A Fun Family Show! 122 N. Chestnut.
435-6300 box office open 9-1 p.m. M-F www.gbcommunitytheater.com Celebrating 70 Years of live theater.

On Saturday, September 9th at 11 am or 6 pm, climb aboard the Regency Redline double decker bus and cruise past famous sights of yesteryear as well as Packers hot spots of today. You'll hear about the team and the men who helped shape the colorful history of the Green Bay Packers...from Curly Lambeau to one of our community's most beloved individuals, Ray Nitschke. This tour includes historical sites such as Old City Stadium, Hagemeister Park, Curly Lambeau's childhood home and much more! The guided family tour is at 11 am and is $10 for adults and $5 for children 12 and under. The guided adults only tour is at 6 pm and includes 3 drink tickets and a stop at Glory Years Bar. The adults only tour is $20 per person. Call the Regency Suites at 888-417-1780 or visit our website at www.regencygb.com for reservations.

Celebrate Oktoberfest, Sat. Sept. 9th Noon to 10 p.m. at Titletown Brewing Company, 200 Dousman. Enjoy Fresh Beer, Great Food & Live Entertainment and a whole lot of Germans! Ceremonial Tapping of Oktoberfest Lager, Sept. 8th at 5 p.m.

Cheese Extravaganza! Sat. Sept. 9th 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Neville Museum. Featuring Alice in Dairyland and the Wisconsin Traveling Herd. Free
For all the impressive cheese details: www.nevillepublicmuseum.org or 448-4460

Guns from Around the World on Display at the Neville Museum- "Bullet Points" showcases over 80 rare firearms. The exhibit focuses on weapons with connections to local citizens, soldiers and collectors.

5th anniversary 911 Memorial Service on Sunday Sept. 10th near the 911 Monument- grounds of Neville Public Museum. 9:30 a.m. Allouez Band, 10 a.m. ceremony with dignitaries, Air Force flyover and dove release.

911 Memorial Service- Monday, Sept. 11th 8:45 a.m. to 9:15 a.m. at the 911 Monument with Mayor Jim Schmitt and Police and Fire Officials.

A monthly Great Books discussion group is scheduled to begin Tues., Sept. 12 at the Central Library, 515 Pine St. Board room- 7 to 8:30 p.m. Call 448-4400, ext. 375 for details and materials. www.greatbooks.org

Join Rummele's Jewelers celebrating 56 years in business with the world's premier jewelry designers. Thurs. Sept. 14th 9:30 a.m. to 7 p.m. and Fri. Sept. 15th 9:30 a.m. to 5 p.m. 234 Adams St. 432-0664.

Earth Sense Energy Systems expanding to the Green Bay area specializing in sales, service and installation of pellet/corn stoves since 1991.Tent Sale- Sept. 14 - 17th 1011 S. Broadway. Thurs & Fri- 9a.m to 6 p.m. Sat. 9-5, Sun. 10-2. Jeff Kananen 920-470-6632.

Back by popular demand...The Pub at Regency Suites is hosting a Retro Pub Crawl on Friday, September 15th. The crawl begins at The Pub at 7 pm and goes to 5 area bars. For only $15 crawlers receive a pub crawl tee shirt, a can cozy, transportation on our vintage London double decker bus and a chance to win great prizes. Call the Regency Suites at 920-432-4555 or visit our website at www.regencygb.com for reservations.

Puant- I would like to attend a breakfast meeting, I do not know who sets' these up , but I might be able to arrange attandence by a someone you referenced. ( i do not want to speak for him until this is set-up)

Green Bay-Root- Thanks for the information I didnt realize all those activities were going on downtown. I am assuming you are somewhat associated with the Regency? I think the Regency is good downtown-so nothing wrong with that.

not at all. Jeff Murcs sends out this e-mail to a list of people that requested to be on it about once every month. sometimes more if there is a lot to speak about. but if you want to get on the list you need to go to www.downtowngreenbay.com and put your e-mail on the list

I don't know about you guys, but I'm hoping for another "Good Morning Downtown" get-together sometime soon...like in the next month or so. It's been many months since the last one.

I see many topics of great interest that could be presented/discussed. For example: Astor Place is about to be built.....The plans for the Boardwalk are being solidified..(where are we at with this right now?).... I'd love to hear from John Vetter about progress/news on RiverCenter and how those plans are shaping up. Maybe the new owners of the Bellin Building could present something. Etc.

There are a lot of topics that could be covered. I think a lot of people are wondering what's up. It's been 2 years since the big Vetter proposals were first presented. The turnout for these meetings has always been good.....

So, did I argue a good case for it? I know these are a lot of work for the organizers, but they sure are fun.

Totally agree, I think the last one was in early spring. I am really curious to find out where Vetter is with the river center. Was there a time line set with the Bellin Building?

Posted September 8, 2006

Today's tip: Washington Street closed


North Washington Street between Gregby Way and Main Street will be closed from Monday through October for pavement reconstruction. No detour will be established.


Access to Days Inn Downtown hotel will be limited but maintained, allowing access from both Main and Washington streets.

— Green Bay Public Works Department

^^ I was just about to post the same bit about Washington St. closing. Progress!

I'm confused...where are the twin 12-story condo buildings proposed to be located? The description says it has views of Lambeau and the Bay of Green Bay. Haven't heard about this one before...

Good news about Washington Street.

I'm confused...where are the twin 12-story condo buildings proposed to be located? The description says it has views of Lambeau and the Bay of Green Bay. Haven't heard about this one before...

Good news about Washington Street.

The proposed location is a tract of land bordered by Tony Canadeo Run, Bart Starr Drive, and Reggie White Way. In case you are not familiar with that it is just west of the Tundra Lodge and Water Park.

The description fails to mention the lovely views of the Georgia Pacific Mill and the truck lots located in Ashwaubenon. Simply Breathtaking. In addition, I would have a better time of winning the lottery than this project ever becoming a reality. I would love to eat my words though...

The proposed location is a tract of land bordered by Tony Canadeo Run, Bart Starr Drive, and Reggie White Way. In case you are not familiar with that it is just west of the Tundra Lodge and Water Park.

The description fails to mention the lovely views of the Georgia Pacific Mill and the truck lots located in Ashwaubenon. Simply Breathtaking. In addition, I would have a better time of winning the lottery than this project ever becoming a reality. I would love to eat my words though...

I have heard that the majority of the real estate in the vicinity has either been purchased or has an option to purchase. I don't see the mill going away any time soon, however the rest of the area can be cleaned up quite a bit.

^^For me, I'd still like my high-rise condo in Downtown GB (provided things keep progressing there). I think the views of the waterfront & Bay from downtown will be much nicer. Moreover, I think downtown walk-ability is still better (more dense). Even with the proposed pedestrian boulevard in Ashwaubenon, I question how walk-able things will really be because they're kind of spread out. Downtown is still more dense and compact. But, that's just my opinion. I'd still like to see the Ashwaubenon developments, don't get me wrong there.

http://wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=5391580

Green Bay
Preparation for Tower Closes Washington Street

Sep 11, 2006 11:05 AM PDT


About a block of Washington Street in Green Bay is closed for construction that will pave the way for the planned Astor Place high-rise.

Washington Street closed Monday between Main Street and Gregby Way, which will be reconstructed and straightened. The work is expected to last through October. There will be no marked detours.

Visitors will still be able to get to the Days Inn hotel via Main Street or Washington Street during the roadwork.

Recently I had a chance to speak to Steve Schneider, one of the owners of the Bellin Building. I asked him about the Bellin Building and he said that it was highly likely there will be an upscale restaurant on the 1st floor and on the 2nd floor will be the Black & Tan. I didn't get the name of the 1st floor restaurant. He mentioned that the restaurant was also in Milwaukee & Madison. What suprised me in our conversation is that he said Associated Bank now owns the corner where the Daily Planet was. He said they will likely build as high as 12 stories there. This is kind of conflicting news with what others have said on this forum. He diffently said where the Daily Planet once was, not site 4.

Recently I had a chance to speak to Steve Schneider, one of the owners of the Bellin Building. I asked him about the Bellin Building and he said that it was highly likely there will be an upscale restaurant on the 1st floor and on the 2nd floor will be the Black & Tan. I didn't get the name of the 1st floor restaurant. He mentioned that the restaurant was also in Milwaukee & Madison. What suprised me in our conversation is that he said Associated Bank now owns the corner where the Daily Planet was. He said they will likely build as high as 12 stories there. This is kind of conflicting news with what others have said on this forum. He diffently said where the Daily Planet once was, not site 4.

That is some great news, Did you happen to get a timeline of the restaurants?

I have heard about the Daily Planet site hosting a similar sized building as the Bellin like 8 stories, but 12 would be good, That site seems pretty small so it will make the area feel much more dense. Hopefully some brick and mortar comes out of this...nice work titletown.

Hmm...I was thinking about Assocated Bank some more. Now, I have absolutely no idea what they might do...This is what I think: I do know they already have their "signature building" on the corner of Cherry and Adams St. At the time it was built, there was much bally-hooing about the design...It was cutting edge at the time it was built. Associated just last year combined/added more office space just north on Adams St when they renovated the old phone company building. Could they be looking to add even more office space downtown? I suppose it's possible...they had, in the past, still shown at least a little interest in "Site 4" on the river. Perhaps Site 4 was just too big for their needs? I suppose it makes some sense to instead put something on the Daily Planet site if it's in conjunction with the Meyer's 1st floor restaurant plans. The taller building on the Daily Planet site would give them the new, tall, landmark building w/o as many square feet to fill.

A 12-story building on Daily Planet site, coupled with a fairly busy Walnut street, might warrrant the construction of a pedestrian overpass connecting to the new parking ramp, wouldn't it? Boy I sure do miss Avisser's input on these types of matters.

I just re-read much of the "GB Developement Thread: Part 1". Last fall sure was an exciting time for the downtown, at least in terms of laying out new concepts & plans. Let's hope this fall is even more exciting!!

I didn't ask him about the opening of the restaurants, sorry. I remember reading in an article that the Bellin Building will get remodeled and on the top of the building they will put up a flagpole. Something is diffenently going to happen across the street of both sides of the Bellin Building, time will tell. I can't wait, this downtown will be booming (in comparision to what it was a few years a go! )

http://cmsimg.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=U0&Date=20060829&Category=GPG03&ArtNo=608290481&Ref=AR&Profile=1978&MaxW=600

...on the 2nd floor will be the Black & Tan.

Mmmmmmmmmm... My favorite meal in town, bar-none, is the black and tan steak from Black & Tan. Having them downtown in the Bellin Building would be AWESOME!!!

What suprised me in our conversation is that he said Associated Bank now owns the corner where the Daily Planet was. He said they will likely build as high as 12 stories there. This is kind of conflicting news with what others have said on this forum. He diffently said where the Daily Planet once was, not site 4.

Wow, that would be cool! It would also be a pretty skinny building. But if that were to happen, you could have a 7, 8, 12, and 15-20 story building on each corner of the intersection. It have an actual urban feeling. I'll believe it when I see it, but I'll be rooting for it. I guess it is worth mentioning too that just bacause Associated own the property and plans to build on it doesn't necessarily mean that they would be putting their own HQ there.

A 12-story building on Daily Planet site, coupled with a fairly busy Walnut street, might warrrant the construction of a pedestrian overpass connecting to the new parking ramp, wouldn't it?

I doubt it, and I'm not sure I'd want it. I'm increasingly anti-skywalk, they take people off the street. Was the ramp even designed for there to be a skywalk from it out over Walnut?

If it were up to me, I'd help with pedestrian traffic flow there by reducing Walnut east of Washington to one lane each way with a center turn lane, and bike lanes on each side. Through traffic can (and probably should) use Main and Mason. I think Walnut as it exists now is somewhat of an impediment to non-car transportation, and should be reconfigured. I have no traffic data to support if this is feasable.

The proposed location is a tract of land bordered by Tony Canadeo Run, Bart Starr Drive, and Reggie White Way. In case you are not familiar with that it is just west of the Tundra Lodge and Water Park.

The description fails to mention the lovely views of the Georgia Pacific Mill and the truck lots located in Ashwaubenon. Simply Breathtaking. In addition, I would have a better time of winning the lottery than this project ever becoming a reality. I would love to eat my words though...

Thanks...I've heard the strobe flash from the stacks is fantastic!

Probably a stretch this development would ever happen, but it would be a pleasent surprise if it did. The land use east of Lambeau deserved to be more than a steel plant and warehouses. Glad to see some changes along Lombardi.

Northwoods League: Team for Joannes takes another step

By Scott Venci
svenci@greenbaypressgazette.com

Plans to bring a Northwoods League baseball team to Green Bay next summer took another step forward Tuesday night when the city Park Committee voted to send a proposed lease for Joannes Stadium to the City Council for a vote on Tuesday.

Jeff Royle, who owns Ashwaubenon-based Royle Publications and is leading the ownership group that hopes to land an NWL team, was pleased with the move.

"Green Bay will be the second-largest market in the Northwoods League, and the key will be the support of the community and coming out and following the team," he said. "There is just a genuine excitement across the board."

The 12-team Northwoods League is a summer amateur league featuring top college players from North America. The league, which has four teams in Wisconsin, is considering expansion to 14 teams for 2007. Its teams are operated like professional minor-league teams.

The proposed lease would require the NWL team to pay $5,000 per year to play its home games — expected to be 32 to 34 per season — at Joannes.

The NWL team would have the first choice of stadium dates in June, July and August, and would be responsible for maintaining the stadium all year.

The proposed lease also would allow other teams — including Green Bay East High School, American Legion and Babe Ruth teams — to continue playing games at Joannes.

Royle's group, meanwhile, plans to spend $50,000 on upgrades at Joannes, which seats about 1,500. That could include a 300- to 500-seat party deck to accommodate large groups.

"All the improvements and stuff that we will bring to the table to get the facility to where we feel it needs to be, all the other users of the facility will be direct beneficiaries of the things we do there," Royle said.

Joannes Stadium was built in 1929 and renovated in 1987.


Technically, Joannes is a few blocks east of downtown, but if it ever became a popular destination, it's not a stretch to say that downtown restaurant and bar businesses would benefit.

Workers on track for opening of City Center Café

By Terry Anderson
tanderso@greenbaypressgazette.com


Construction crews are working up a mighty appetite and thirst as they race to stay on schedule for the opening of the City Center Café in downtown Green Bay.


"We're still on schedule for a Nov. 1 opening," said John Verheyden, who with wife, Andrea, is developing the cluster of four restaurants that will occupy a section of the Baylake Bank Center. "We have been approved for a liquor license for Slick Nick's Bar & Grill. And the menu is about 95 percent down. Now it's a matter of working with the beer, wine and liquor distributors."


Smet Construction is serving as the general contractor and real estate developer for the $1.6 million project.


Job applications for all four restaurants are being accepted at Zeppelin's Sub Shop, 2420 University Ave.


The City Center Café will occupy about 9,500 square feet in the southwest corner of the Baylake building at Washington and Cherry streets.


The food court will feature a smoke-free common eating area that can accommodate 200. Additional seating will be available outside. Free Internet service will be available.


A large conference room will be available for private parties.


About 5,000 people live and work within walking distance of downtown.


Earlier this summer, APAC Customer Service moved its operation from Allouez to the Baylake building, bringing 850 employees. With plans to have 1,000 employees working on around-the-clock shifts, APAC is occupying the second floor of the building


"Barring any unforeseen delays we should be on track for Nov. 1," Verheyden said. "The guys working there say it's starting to smell like a food court."

Somewhat unrelated. But this is the website for the proposed condo complex across from Lambeau Field. Pretty interesting I must say. Not quite sure about it being the best direct view of Lambeay but hey - I guess any view is considered prime, especially right across the street. www.thelegacycondos.com

Finally the forum is up and running....what is the deal. It is the 2nd time in about a month. You would think I suffer from SkyscraperCity withdrawal.

i found this a few days ago by accident but it was written last spring and really details the vetter denk projects currently in progress.

Titletown RenewalMilwaukee Firm Plays Major Role in Reinventing Green Bay's Skyline
Special Report: Commercial Real Estate
By Andrew Weiland , of SBT

Published April 28, 2006

Milwaukee-based Vetter Denk Architects Inc. is completing one development and is planning three others in a four-block stretch of riverfront property in downtown Green Bay. The projects will dramatically alter the downtown Green Bay skyline and could boost the city's image.


"This will be the new Monday Night Football shot (of the city)," said John Vetter, principal of Vetter Denk. "It will show where the city of Green Bay is going and how progressive it can be." "This is going to set the tone for what the new Green Bay is all about," said P. Robert Strong, the city's planning director.





Vetter Denk's Green Bay projects include:


• The company's first Titletown venture is called Riverfront Lofts, a 26-unit condominium building. The company has already sold 25 of the 26 units. The $10 million, five-story building has a variety of condos, one to three-story units with between 860 and 3,500 square feet of space, which are priced between $165,000 to $800,000. Its construction will be complete by the end of May.


• The company plans to build a $35 million, 17-story condominium building, called Astor Place, just south of Main Street on the current site of Green Bay's Admiral Flatley Park. The building will be the tallest in the state outside of Milwaukee, Vetter said. It will have 95 condominiums and 19,000 square feet of retail space. The condominiums will be priced between $200,000 and $1.4 million. So far, 45 of the 95 units have been reserved. Vetter Denk plans to begin construction on that project in the fall. It will take about 18 months to build.


• The company plans to build River Center between Riverfront Lofts and Astor Place. The site is a vacant former Younkers store, most of which will be demolished. River Center will be a $35 million to $50 million mixed-use development with 60,000 to 80,000 square feet of office space, a 100-room hotel, 25,000 to 30,000 square feet of retail space and about 60 loft apartments. The project will also include a new 15,000-square-foot Green Bay children's museum. It will consist of several buildings between six and 14 stories tall.


• The company also plans to develop a site at the corner of Walnut Street and Washington Street, which is currently used as a surface parking lot. The company's preliminary plans, called River Tower, are for a $20 million to $40 million mixed-use high-rise building with residential condos, office space and retail space. The height has not been determined. The company has an option to develop the site, which city officials had identified as the best site for the downtown's tallest building before Vetter Denk proposed its Astor Place plans. "We felt that was the premier site in downtown Green Bay," Strong said. "We still expect it to be a significant building."





Vetter Denk began working on development projects in downtown Green Bay about 2-1/2 years ago. The company received a call from a Green Bay resident who was familiar with the company's work, asking the firm to do projects to improve the city's downtown. The man said that Green Bay "could really use them," Vetter said.


The Green Bay man came to Milwaukee and met with Vetter Denk executives, and later they went on a tour of Green Bay.


"The problem with Green Bay, the way we saw it, was there was no heart to the downtown," Vetter said. "We saw that as a problem, but we also saw it as an opportunity."


The company targeted the area between Main Street and Walnut Street along the east shore of the Fox River as the key area of Green Bay that was poised to become the new heart of the downtown. The area is across the river from the Neville Public Museum and is next to the now vacant downtown mall.


That portion of the riverfront had been neglected, Vetter said.


"It was a classic, Midwest post-industrial city that had turned its back on its most valuable resource, the Fox River," he said.


The stretch of riverfront was barren, except for parking lots and a warehouse.


Today, it is the site of a massive transformation. Next door to the almost-completed Riverfront Lofts building, Nicolet Bank built a new four-story, 83,000-square-foot corporate headquarters, which was completed last fall. The Nicolet Bank site is the only property in the four-block area between Main and Walnut streets that is not controlled by Vetter Denk.


In addition, the city plans to build a $12 million boardwalk along the east side of the Fox River between Main and Walnut streets. The boardwalk will be paid for by a combination of tax incremental financing (TIF), state and federal grants and private donations. The boardwalk will have an upper level near the buildings and a lower level along the water, where boats will be docked. The boardwalk will be about 50 feet wide with some larger areas where crowds can gather to watch performances, Strong said.


"We're creating this environment of interesting spaces where things can happen," he said.


Vetter Denk worked with Boston-based Stoss Landscape Urbanism to design the boardwalk concept. The two firms also worked together to design the planned Erie Street Plaza in Milwaukee's Historic Third Ward.


Vetter Denk gave the boardwalk conceptual plans to the city, at no cost, in exchange for exclusive development rights for the properties along the east side of the river between Main and Walnut streets, except for the Nicolet Bank property.


The boardwalk will be part of a 15-mile long trail.


"This is going to be a destination on that trail," Strong said.


Eventually, the city will also build a walkway on the other side of Fox River, opposite the boardwalk. That walkway will provide a softer, more natural setting to complement the Neville Museum and Veterans Park.


Other developments are occurring downtown, in part because of the momentum created by the Vetter Denk projects, Strong said.


A vacant former Boston Store building, located next to the former Younkers building, was acquired by Baylake Bank. The bank is occupying the first floor of the building and leased the 80,000-square-foot second floor to APAC Customer Services, which will move a call center from Allouez (a Green Bay suburb) to the building. The APAC move will bring about 1,000 jobs into downtown Green Bay.


More businesses are thinking about moving downtown, Strong said.


"I've had property owners in the downtown that have actually been receiving calls," Strong said. "A lot of this is all coming from the excitement of the initial plan (by Vetter Denk)."


Even so, Vetter Denk's plans were not embraced by everyone in Green Bay right away. The company, which is receiving millions of dollars in TIF financing for its Green Bay projects, had to work to convince the community that there was a demand for urban living in the city's downtown.


"It's a very provincial town that does not easily welcome outsiders," Vetter said. "It took a lot of work to gain respect and trust in the city."


Before Vetter Denk arrived, there were no residences in Green Bay's central business district that could be purchased. Only rental apartments were available downtown. However, today, in addition to Vetter Denk's projects, a 130-unit downtown apartment building is being converted to condos.


"There are people out there that would love to live in an urban environment if you offer the right product at the right location," Strong said.





Vetter Denk Architects Inc.


Location: 614 N. Broadway, Milwaukee


Owners: John Vetter and Kelly Denk


Employees: 10


Web site: www.vetterdenk.com

If you were experiencing intense craving for this forum, agitation, depression, anxiety, angry outburts, lack of motivation, shaking, nausea, disturbed sleep, irritability, or sexual dysfunction, then YES you were suffering from SkyscraperCity withdrawal!

So, what's new and exciting? I'm pretty pumped about that new place called the Firehouse on Walnut, right next to Confetti's (the old stone buidling across the street from Pi and Hip Cats). The Firehouse is exactly my dream: Take an old, unused building and turn it into something cool. It appears they've done that. They've even conjured up a little history because that building used to actually be a firehouse a long time ago. I can't wait to check out that new watering hole once it's open for business.

Besides the point that watching the Packers this season makes my stomach turn, but I was beside myself when this past weekend when Fox showed some footage of the Appleton PAC after a commercial break!

This should serve as inspiration to us all to make sure the recent interest in downtown Green Bay is successful!

Besides the point that watching the Packers this season makes my stomach turn, but I was beside myself when this past weekend when Fox showed some footage of the Appleton PAC after a commercial break!

This should serve as inspiration to us all to make sure the recent interest in downtown Green Bay is successful!

^^ Personally, I was excited to see the PAC shown during the game. In this forum we have always stressed the importance of promoting this area of Wisconsin as a region, rather than having all the indivirdual cities bickering over one another. I guarantee you that people's impressions of Green Bay were positively effected by the NFL showing the nice, modern downtown PAC in that segment of the game. Just as we should expect Appleton to promote itself by utilizing its regional resourses that may be in Green Bay, we should also expect Green Bay to promote itself by utilizing not only its own resourses, but also by focusing on more regional attractions such as Door County and Appleton. If/when downtown Green Bay becomes a 24 hour live/work/play area, I fully excpect Appleton to advertise this resource and its proximity to potential residents and buisnesses looking to move into the Appleton area. The Green Bay - Appleton region will only prosper if the 2 cities can learn to cooperate in such ways as was demonstrated by the NFL's clip last week.

I was saddened to see that the mom and pop gift shop at the airport has lost their bid to remain at Austin Straubel. I always enjoyed stopping in there for some last minute souvenir's when leaving GB. I was especially disapointed to see that AirHost won the contract. They operate my least favorite airport restaurant that I've ever been to. (see article below)

AirHost awarded airport retail contract; Hills lose bid to stay

By Paul Brinkmann
pbrinkma@greenbaypressgazette.com

ASHWAUBENON — Memphis-based AirHost Inc. has won a bid to operate the retail space at Austin Straubel International Airport, displacing the local couple that ran two gift shops there for 35 years.


The current operators, Jack and Donna Hill, operating as DHM Inc., lost in competitive bidding with AirHost. Their lease expires Dec. 31.


Airport Director Tom Miller decided to award the bid based on a Brown County scoring system.


AirHost currently runs the restaurant at Austin Straubel and operates in a dozen similar-sized airports throughout the Midwest.


Miller said the AirHost bid "was much more thorough and detailed and provided a significant amount of information about what they intended to sell and market in the store, as well as a considerable minimum annual guarantee and anticipated annual sales."


In an interview Thursday, Jack Hill's voice cracked as he talked about the end of the couple's career at the airport. He said he was considering an appeal of Miller's decision to the County Board's Planning, Development and Transportation Committee.


"I'm bitter, not just personally, but as a taxpayer," Hill said. "They are not considering that we employ local people, we're a local business, and we've been here for years."


The Hills generated $722,947 in sales last year operating two stores at Austin Straubel: a general gift shop heavy on Green Bay Packers gear, and a specialty shop focusing on cheese, wine and local food products.


Under their lease, the Hills had to guarantee $15,000 in payments to the airport, but paid about $100,000 last year as a percentage of sales.


Under the new lease, the airport asked for $170,000 in improvements to the shops and a guaranteed $100,000 annual payment or a percentage of total sales higher than 15 percent, whichever is greater. Bidders were asked to propose a percentage of sales.


According to the county's score sheet on the bids, five people evaluated the two proposals. AirHost scored a total of 419, while DMH scored 358.


DMH held an advantage in only two of nine categories, for promised revenue to Brown County and for providing local management.


http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060922/GPG03/609220645/1247

You are correct Urban Lover, that has to be the worst bar/resturant in any american airport. It is too bad with all the improvemnts made at GRB. Maybe the airport should have asked for $170,000 in improvements to the restaurant and leave the Hills alone. I think the gift shop could use a bit of remodeling, but I always stop at the cheese store.

I fly out of there almost every Sunday, anytime I am delayed for any time, I call the Radisson ask them to pick me up and have food and drinks in their bar- at least you can watch football there.

I'm looking for some great photos of places around Green Bay, particularly the downtown.

Does anyone have some favorite photos they'd like to share? I'd like to know of web sites and / or names of photographers who have really good prints.

I'm particularly interested in architectural photographs.

Thanks!

Just as we should expect Appleton to promote itself by utilizing its regional resourses that may be in Green Bay, we should also expect Green Bay to promote itself by utilizing not only its own resourses, but also by focusing on more regional attractions such as Door County and Appleton. If/when downtown Green Bay becomes a 24 hour live/work/play area, I fully excpect Appleton to advertise this resource and its proximity to potential residents and buisnesses looking to move into the Appleton area. The Green Bay - Appleton region will only prosper if the 2 cities can learn to cooperate in such ways as was demonstrated by the NFL's clip last week.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Appleton was "promoting itself," rather the spot was more of a shameless self-promotion for the Fox network...Fox Cities Performing Arts Center...so clever Fox...

Do you really think Ravens fans would be happy if Fox kept showing footage of DC instead of the Inner Harbor at commercial breaks?

We need to get people in Green Bay to cooperate with each other before anyone should even dream of Green Bay and Appleton getting along.

Anyway, back to Green Bay development news...

Anyone notice how the availability page on the website for the Legacy condos shows a lot of the higher end ($$) condos as reserved and the lower end ones as available? Sort of the opposite as Astor Place...curious...

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Appleton was "promoting itself," rather the spot was more of a shameless self-promotion for the Fox network...Fox Cities Performing Arts Center...so clever Fox...

Do you really think Ravens fans would be happy if Fox kept showing footage of DC instead of the Inner Harbor at commercial breaks?

We need to get people in Green Bay to cooperate with each other before anyone should even dream of Green Bay and Appleton getting along.

Anyway, back to Green Bay development news...

Anyone notice how the availability page on the website for the Legacy condos shows a lot of the higher end ($$) condos as reserved and the lower end ones as available? Sort of the opposite as Astor Place...curious...

^^ I wasn't saying that Appleton was promoting itself in the NFL example; rather the Fox Valley was promoting itself. As I mentioned earlier, Green Bay and Appleton are both way too small to have much success in only promoting themselves, so they would have much better luck promoting the region that they are in, which has over a million people.

Here's a snapshot from yesterday: The beginning of construction of Astor Place. Here, crews are straightening Washington Street to make room.
http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/images/Historic-Other/DSCN1365_resized.jpg

Directly adjacent to this site, along prime waterfront, here is just a small sample of what needs attention next. To borrow the late Steve Irwin saying, (in Australian accent:) "Ain't she a beauuuuty?? Crickey!"
http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/images/Historic-Other/DSCN1354_resized.jpg

Obviously, the high-end condos in Astor Place aren't going to be very attractive until this sort of shit gets cleaned up. It is clearly imperitive for River Center to be built...(which would replace this hideous run-down building pictured here). These two developments, as well as the boardwalk, really depend on each other---And the continued revitalization of the downtown obviously depends on these waterfront developments.

I need to speak in defense of the yellow part of the Prange's building picured above. Yes, it's run-down, but I like it. I was walking around there a week ago and really wishing that could somehow be kept. I'd like to keep the most historic part along Washington, but my understanding is that it's in really tough shape. But this yellow part has defined the riverfront for so long, and if someone put some effort into it, tore down the white box to the north and the historic part for new construction, and married this old warehouse structure to a nice modern design, you could have something really interesting that references the history of the site better.

I'm not saying this would be cost effective, but it was one part of Juza's plan that I liked (Dan Roarty of Dimension IV, who I believe designed the Juza plan, is a promoter of just this sort of preservation of sound historic buildings). I don't think the Juza plan was as good in terms of design of the newer parts, or in terms of uses, but I liked keeping this so the whole riverfront wouldn't be new, contemporary buildings. I guess I feel that the more contemporary buildings would come off even better (I do like them) if there was still the old, industrial/warehouse-looking couterpoint that was sensitivly restored. Again, I realize that this not may be a cost effective option, but in a perfect world...

I hate to argue a moot point (since we all know the old yellow Yonkers section is coming down), but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth. I appreciate the interest of some individuals desiring to keep some of the "history" in the downtown area, namely the yellow brick warehouse structure, and I myself having worked on several National Register of Historic Places nominations would appreciate that as well. However, in reality, it really is not worth saving especially in the asthetics area. It really is plain ugly, and as far as the Juza plan went, a few more windows, and awnings would not sufficiently have changed this fact. There are many more historic buildings in the downtown area worth saving, but to me the yellow beast is not one of them, I say good bye and don't look back. This is stain on the waterfront not fit for downtown. Again, just my 2 cents worth.

^^ Interesting. One of the reasons I'd like to keep is is because of asthetics. I think with the right improvements and the right style of additions to it the building would be attractive. I'm not saying it would be easy, and I'm not sure the Juza plan was the right asthetic for keeping that portion, but in the right hands I think it could be made into a very handsome sturcture. But, as you said, it's kind of a moot point.

In any case, I do kind of wish, and this won't happen either because Vetter-Denk is first an architectural firm, they'd have someone else design either site 4 or preferably River Center. Not that River Center is a bad design, I just am not sure I want to whole riverfront (except Nicolet Bank) to look the same. I don't think it will be a disaster by any means, but it would be better with some architectural diversity.

I wouldn’t be too quick to say good-bye to the old warehouse portion of the Younkers complex just yet. There hasn’t been any confirmed reports that indicate “Yes, this section will come down completely”. The initial renderings of River Center show the 14-story condo/apartment portion of the project in the area of where this building stands today. However, who has seen or heard anything on River Center in the past couple months? Has a website been produced that shows that structure in more detail? Riverfront Lofts was initially proposed with 5 floors of condos and 1 floor of parking, and later in the process as the initial rendering was refined -- it was revised to 4 floors of condos and 1 floor of parking. What a difference one additional level would have made…

Wait, back to my point.

I’m not saying that the building itself will remain and a couple windows and balconies will be slapped on to modernize it (that would be terrible) but a lot can be done with buildings such as what we have here. Great example is the First Place on the River project in Milwaukee. Keybridge is taking a 4-story warehouse, stripping off the old skin down to the skeleton, adding 8 stories and I think from the renderings that I have seen – this will be a pretty impressive structure. Sure it won’t look like much of what was there before – but a good portion of the flooring and skeleton will be utilized. So maybe expecting a huge building demolition party may not be a reality if this is the direction Vetter chooses to go. If it is not, then I’ll be first in line when they decide to bring the old girl down.

On a completely different note, did any of you see the Astor Place website section on the boardwalk plans recently. It appears they have been revised again and show a greater level of detail of what will be a part of this element of the return to greatness… Man, I hate to wish my life away, but I can’t wait until 2008.

Holy crap! I haven't seen these renderings before. I assume these are what you were talking about GB4Life.

Go to http://astorplacecondos.com/boardwalk.htm. There are several views, one where you can click and drag the image to see the whole boardwalk, and 5 that pan across different perspectives. The photos of people that StoSS cuts in crack me up, but that aside, it looks fantastic.

Thanks for pointing that out!

I'm all for historic preservation and "adaptive re-use" whenever possible/practical. When I said I wanted to see that shit cleaned up, I didn't necessarily mean 'tear that old building down' (though, I thought that was a foregone conclusion). I really did like Juza's plan for this. I would like to see if Vetter has come up with any ideas to clean that shitty building up and turn it into something cool. There, I've said my peace and now hopefully that building won't crumble down on top of me the next time I walk through the tunnel through it. :bash:

Boardwalk
THose Flash pictures/diagrams on the boardwalk are pretty new (and of course very cool). I just checked that site a week or two ago, and those weren't there then. Too bad this kind of stuff doesn't reach a larger audience somehow...I think it would help get a few more astor tower condo units reserved.

On a completely different note, did any of you see the Astor Place website section on the boardwalk plans recently. It appears they have been revised again and show a greater level of detail of what will be a part of this element of the return to greatness… Man, I hate to wish my life away, but I can’t wait until 2008.

I love the one with all the people laying out, that is great.

I love the one with all the people laying out, that is great.

My first thought when I saw that picture was that the boardwalk looks like "Girls Gone Wild -- Frozen Tundra Edition."

Personally, laying down on concrete at a 30-degree angle doesn't sound like fun to me. :)

But if it helps draw young singles with large disposable incomes to downtown Green Bay, more power to them.

My first thought when I saw that picture was that the boardwalk looks like "Girls Gone Wild -- Frozen Tundra Edition."

Personally, laying down on concrete at a 30-degree angle doesn't sound like fun to me. :)

But if it helps draw young singles with large disposable incomes to downtown Green Bay, more power to them.

Funny! However, just to be a nit-picker: That won't be concrete; it will be wood decking. Specifically, the wood will be a super rot-resistant hardwood called Ipe (at least, that's according to what Chris Reed from STOSS said at one time).

Thanks for posting the boardwalk update!

Its nice to see thw work going on at the Astor location!

The DePere Bridge is going up at an astounding rate IMO.

I drove by the Legacy location last week ~ still no ground work being done.
Anyone here have a link to a website for the building?

I am surprised we have not heard much with regard to the Yonkers location.

I drove by the Legacy location last week ~ still no ground work being done.
Anyone here have a link to a website for the building?

This was posted a while back, not quite sure if this is what you are looking for.

Somewhat unrelated. But this is the website for the proposed condo complex across from Lambeau Field. Pretty interesting I must say. Not quite sure about it being the best direct view of Lambeay but hey - I guess any view is considered prime, especially right across the street. www.thelegacycondos.com


The DePere Bridge is going up at an astounding rate IMO.

Do you have an opinion on what should be done with the land where the Claude Allouez now stands? I had originally thought that a building should be built in its place, but now I would be curious to see what some of the other ideas being floated around are.

I too think that a new building should be placed in the old footprint. A nice glass faced redish, brown brick building would be great. It should also be about 3-4 stories to make a good fit. If the green space park idea were to go ahead I think a nice option would be a series of stairs decending from Broadway to Front street framed by a series of stepped waterfalls.

Here's another vote for a building at that location. Unlike downtown Green Bay (although the boardwalk will be great), De Pere already has a fair amount of green space near the river -- Voyageur Park, the Fox River Trail, St. Norbert College, the Brown County Fairgrounds, etc. You would think that this parcel would be a desirable location for development.

However, I do like Emerald City's idea, too. The stepped waterfalls could symbolize the Des Peres Rapides (rapids) that marked this location on the Fox River before the dam was built.

The Northeast corner of Broadway and George Streets is now a small park. There had been a five and dime store there at one time called Radants. It burned down some years ago. Because parking and traffic had been bad at that intersection the lot was turned into a park. With the bridge moving one block south traffic conditions and parking on the Broadway/George intersection shouldn't be a problem. They should build on the corner where Radants had been instead of the bridge foortprint and either move the park to the footprint of the old bridge (I like the above posts mention of cascading waterfalls) or extend George Street on through to Front Street.

i know a lot of people are wondering about the demo for the yonkers building so i e-mail John Vetter the otehr week and he came back with, "There is a lot of excitement and interest in Astor Place and everything is going well....River Center is much more complex and the demo is shooting for the first quarter of 2007." so there you have it.

Marketplace Magazine

Heart of the city

by Rick Berg

If you're looking for a sign that Green Bay's downtown redevelopment is progressing, look no further than the "bodies on the street," says Jeff Weyers, president of Commercial Horizons, a commercial real estate firm that's been heavily involved in several downtown projects.

In the past few months, APAC and its 800-plus employees have joined Baylake Bank in the Baylake Bank City Centre near the north end of Washington Street. Two blocks away, at the corner of Washington and Walnut, the Nicolet Center now houses Nicolet Bank, Commercial Horizons, Aon and the Cornerstone Foundation. (Smith-Barney will join them in December, filling the last vacancy in the building that opened just last year.)

As a result, longtime Green Bay watchers are being greeted with a formerly rare sight - people walking the downtown sidewalks and visiting the handful of bars and restaurants that have persevered through what has been a long and sporadic redevelopment process.

"APAC in particular is having a very good impact on downtown," says Weyers. "It's bringing some life to the streets, and that's what you need to continue to attract growth."

The two major Vetter-Denk Architecture riverfront projects - the Astor Place condominium tower and the River Center mixed-use complex - are not proceeding as quickly as some had hoped and expected, but overall the pace of redevelopment downtown is - at worst - "steady," says Weyers.

In addition to the Nicolet Center opening and APAC's move downtown, there are several recent developments:

• In August, Vetter-Denk completed the first of its redevelopment projects with the opening of the Riverfront Lofts condominiums. All 26 units, with prices ranging from $165,000 to $750,000, were sold out preconstruction. "That's a fairly remarkable feat," says John Vetter of Vetter-Denk. "I don't recall any similar project, even in Milwaukee, selling out before construction was completed."

• Also in August, officials at the Baylake Bank City Centre announced a new group of tenants when construction began on the $1.6 million City Centre Café, which will be located on the first level of the building's southwest corner. The café complex will house a submarine sandwich shop, pizza restaurant, coffee shop and bar.

• In September, the new owners of the historic Bellin Building announced plans to renovate the 92-year-old structure, including restoration of its classic terra-cotta façade.

"We have a vision of bringing back the look of the original Chicago style of architecture, but also updating the building," says Steve Schneider, president of Stafford Building LLC, which purchased the building in June for $1.36 million. Schneider, a former Cellcom executive, is also president of Bug Tussel Wireless, which occupies part of the building. "Part of updating the building will be adding a technology and telecommunications focus."

The top floors of the structure will be office space, but the first and second floors are expected to house retail and restaurant operations.

In September, renovation began at the Regency Center to create UW-Oshkosh's new MBA and Graduate Education Center. UW-Oshkosh officials expect construction to be completed in November, with classes to begin in the spring semester.

"The real catalyst"
While all those projects provide hopeful signs for Green Bay's downtown future, most eyes remain on the Astor Place and River Center projects, neither of which has broken ground yet, despite earlier projections that they would be under way by now.

"There are a lot of good things happening down here, but those two riverfront projects are going to be the real catalyst for what happens downtown," says Weyers.

Vetter says he expects construction to begin on the $33 million Astor Place condo tower by the end of this year. Astor Place will be located adjacent to the Ray Nitschke Bridge at Washington and Main streets, and the city recently began infrastructure improvements in and around the site, "so technically the project is under way," says Vetter.

Vetter-Denk currently has reservations for roughly half of the tower's 87 condo units, and at least some of those will have to be converted to firm commitments before construction begins on the tower, "but I don't expect that will be a problem," says Vetter.

Assuming construction gets under way by year's end, occupancy is projected for spring 2008.

Plans for the $48 million River Center, which will occupy the current Younkers building site, are less certain, though Vetter remains hopeful that site abatement and building demolition can begin this winter, with construction under way in the spring.

"It's a very complicated project, however, and anything can happen in development," says Vetter. "It's the nature of the beast."

River Center already has a tentative commitment from the Green Bay Children's Museum to occupy part of the complex, thanks to a $229,000 grant from the Shopko Foundation. In April, the Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority also authorized $7.5 million in affordable housing tax credits for the River Center Lofts, which will include several units set aside for low- and moderate-income condo buyers.

That still leaves Vetter-Denk in the market for several major retail and commercial tenants. Proposals for the River Center include a major hotel as part of the complex, but there's been no indication of progress in securing a commitment from a hotel developer. Vetter says he believes there's a need for another hotel downtown, but says it's possible for the River Center project to go forward without it.

Mutual catalysts
While Weyers believes the Vetter-Denk projects are the key to continued growth, Vetter, who has been involved in redevelopment efforts in downtown Milwaukee, says the Nicolet Center and Baylake Bank City Centre projects were critical stepping stones in demonstrating business confidence in Green Bay's downtown future.

"What happens in downtown development is each project plays off the next one," says Vetter. "When a major business makes a decision to move downtown or stay downtown, that makes a great corporate citizen comment, and things just build off that."

"What we're hearing from people interested in downtown is that it is really developing into a very strong, multi-faceted area," says Jeff Mirkes, executive director of Downtown Green Bay Inc., "and one of the most hopeful things we're seeing is the development of a residential base downtown. That's something that's been untapped until now, and it's something that can really feed the other facets of downtown, like entertainment and specialty retail."

"The thing that's working so well for Green Bay right now is that it's developing such a strong diversity downtown, with opportunities for people to live, work and play," says Vetter. "Some cities don't want to make that commitment."

"Mayor Jim Schmidt has made me a big believer when he says that the heart of your city needs to be healthy if you want the rest of the city to thrive," says Weyers. "I've moved my business down here, so I'm a big believer in the future of downtown Green Bay. But we're not at a point where we can sit back and say, 'Look what we've done.' Now is the time to redouble our efforts."

Roots-
Those were a couple of very interesting posts. Thanks for sharing the word.

I have a couple of comments:

First: I work downtown, and I have definitely noticed lots of new people. Many of the APAC people are young and it's nice to see so many young adults downtown during daylight hours.

Smokers: One notable: It's estimated that 10-15 percent of the population age 20-30 are smokers. That's 80-120 smokers congregating around that one building, usually on the southwest corner of the building (where the new food court is going in). It's not always a pleasant sight, that many smokers congregating in one place... I guess it doesn't bother me that much, but I've heard complaints. Maybe I should take up smoking so that I can join the party, I dunno...

Home sales / Astor
I still hope that Astor Condo tower will be enough of a niche for this area that enough units sell....With 'normal' residential home sales at such a lull right now, it could be hard for people to sell their existing homes if they want to move downtown. I wish I knew more of the types of people these 'urban pioneers' are....maybe most of them don't own a home now? IN any case, why do I have this recurring thought that Vetter will end up lopping off several floors of the tower because the upper ones simply don't sell? I hope I'm wrong...

Downtown 'critical mass'
I have been researching other cities' downtown rejuvination. Many of the success stories talk about how a redeveloping downtown can reach 'critical mass' and suddenly nothing can stop the development. THere is usually a primary catalyst or two that really spurs it all. The riverfront developments are obviously our catalysts..obviously, each small development helps a lot as well. I'm sorry to bring this up again, guys, but I can't stop thinking about how that damn old mall building is holding us back from reaching that critical mass. I know I've droned on and on about this...but that big 8 acre building cuts off so much life...blocking streets and pedestrian flow...dividing the convention center area from the rest of downtown...looming large and ugly over such a central part of the downtown...You know I could go on and on...
IN any case, we won't see a truly great downtown until that mall is developed into something.......Why can't I stop thinking/talking about how bad that is? What can be done, and soon? So we just ahve to wait and wait for years and years? Surely there's a better, faster solution.

This isn't Phoenix, but the same principle holds true for Green Bay as pointed out in this article (http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0929urban0929lifestyle.html)

^^ Just my opinion on Astor Place.

I don’t foresee Vetter being able to lop off a couple of floors of Astor Place because they are not selling. Based on the development agreement, doesn’t he need to guarantee a certain dollar amount for the building, and if its not reached -- he or the corporation identified in the agreement would be in breach of contract? What could happen? Not sure. Maybe less money from the TIF District for the project or money having to be paid back that was supposed to be utilized for the development. Going back and changing that now as we are basically on the cusp of construction and delaying the project any further would be a considerable setback. Cutting off some of the more expensive condos on the upper floors would result in the total value of the building being lowered when all of the condos are occupied or sold or whatever. That would mean in order to make up for that, the lower floor condos prices would need to be raised. Those seem to be most popular now. I know Riverfront Lofts sold out but there was a “real” sense that was going to happen. When construction actually “begins” on Astor Place, I think you will see the interest of the units; even some of the more expensive units increase.

you have to think too, why would people make a hard committment to a million dollar condo that will not even be built by spring 2008 if you are in the market right now for one. i know when i want a new home or a new tool or something, i'm not waiting for a some new to be built down the road ....i want to move out and in within a matter of months and not years

Here is a nice aerial perspective shot of our underutilized waterfront:
http://lh5.google.com/gBayPacker/RS7pWMAOABI/AAAAAAAAAAc/JTSYME-UI28/riverscenic337.jpg?

Puant,

I was again looking at your "stuff I've been screwing around with" link. I was curious have you marketed this at all? I think you would need the right developer but this is excellent. What are the plans for the atrium, is it a place to go in winter or how would you get people downtown?. To some extent it reminds me of the domes In Milwaukee

Thanks for the encouragement. I have not marketed it at all. REcently, I was just about to pull the plug on the site. Then, I got to analyzing a few more things related to it. Since you asked...Here they are in random arrangment.

1: Most people still think there's a parking problem here, and therefore large developments like this have no chance to succeed downtown. WE know this is a myth, but here are some hard numbers: This particular downtown site has more than ample parking for this type of large development. Why? It actually helps that it was once a mall. There's the underused Main St. ramp only 200 feet to the north, hundreds of more stalls in the Pine St ramp (only 250 feet to the east) and the new 800-stall Cherry St ramp only a block away to the south. There is also on-street parking and a large surface parking lot w/in 200 feet of the site. That equates to thousands of parking spaces w/in just a couple hundred feet of this development. Typically, developers want to see 1 parking space for every 300 sq. ft. of gross floor area for this type of development. . That's 500-600 parking spaces. Since some parking ramps, like the Main St. one, are so underused, there are more than enough parking spaces within a very short walk. In fact you're likely to walk more than 200 feet when you park your car in a giant surface parking lot at a place like Wal-Mart or a suburban mall.

2 HOw to pay for the Atrium.[/U]
The atrium (http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/atrium_concept.htm)looks quite large. Most people see this type of space as something impossible to pay for. How do you pay for it? Who pays for it? What revenue stream would pay it off? Those are the questions I've heard.
Here is my response to that: First, some background facts: Including the food court, if you added up the area of all of the corridors in the old Port Plaza mall, it had about 50,000 sq. ft. of hallway/corridor space on each level! . My atrium (the part under the transparent roof) is only 30,000 square feet.
How do malls pay for all of their hallway space? Kiosks within help. But of course the tenants packed in around the hallways each pay rent to help pay off construction costs, heating, maintenance costs for the hallways that connect the businesses.

My idea for atrium revenues work pretty much the same way. HOwever, because the commercial/retail 'flanking structures' next to the atrium are only about 63,000 sq. ft of leaseable space--as opposed to much more retail space in the old mall-- the Tower is a critical component of this development: At 90,000 square feet, the tower adds so much of the density required to pay for this.

Economic Feasibility: (just for fun, how's this?)
Site Acquisition Cost: The asking price for the mall is currently $8 million, but that's for the entire site including the old JC Penney building.

Since the Tower and Atrium proposal uses only about 40 percent of the existing mall footprint (between Adams and Washington streets), let's say the purchase price for our portion is $3.2 million ($8 x .40 = $3.2). The City would have to take control of the remaining mall site to put in the new streets, and sell off the remaining parcels to other developers.

Construction Cost: Let's say the Tower construction cost is $20 million (pretty realistic for a 90,000 sf tower like this, I think). LEt's say that the Atrium and flanking structures cost another $10 million to build. I think this is possible, even with the high cost of a glazed roof, due to the fact these structures could use much of the existing mall foundation.
So, Total construction cost: $30 million.

Revenues:* At 90,000 square feet, the Tower could gross $1.8 million per year leasing out space at $20 / s.f. (Class A space).

At 63,000 s.f., the Atrium could gross $756,000 in revenues per year at $12 / s.f.

Total potential revenue: $2.6 million per year.**

I know this is much more complicated than this, but this represents a 12-year return for construction costs. What would the operating expenses be? Other expenditures...? Here's where more work needs to be done by someone in commercial real estate. Could this be feasible? I don't know.

[U]Possible uses for the Atrium:
I think it should stay a public place. Again, it should not be cold & hard; rather, it needs to be soft, earthy, lots of plants, flowing water. Within this environment, I envision commercial & retail spaces all around the perimiter of the atrium, with the tower on one end and Adams St. on the other. I'm thinking mixed use retail, commercial, educational. Also you could have some smaller kiosks with vendors leasing out smaller kiosks in the middle. Also small food courtyard type places, other larger gathering areas. Paths for people to walk around amongst the plants and landscaping. A little bit of topography perhaps. Yes, somewhat like the domes in terms of being greenhouses. I was thinking that if UWGB or ITT had their downtown classrooms there, students who are studying biology and related sciences could get some 'hands-on' experiences with the atrium's indoor plants and they could essentiall be the caretakers of that part of it.

Whatever the case, the space has to be an active space as opposed to just a passive way for people to move through. That makes this atrium space distinctly different from mall hallways and even teh Lambeau atrium.

Maybe if you energize me enough, I'll try find some time to draw up some interiors in 3D.

One more thing: I did see the city's plan for the street grid restoration through the mall (dated a few years), and it was a little differnet than my street plan (http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/streets.htm). I like the City's street grid plan better (though, didn't the city pull the grid plan just before the old mall went under??) I was kind of thinking about drawing up some different concepts that use the city's street grid layout.... That would require reconfiguring the whole atrium, and the Tower would have to be changed significantly.... Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time or energy to work on this stuff these days (nights actually).

Here is a nice aerial perspective shot of our underutilized waterfront:http://lh5.google.com/gBayPacker/RS7pWMAOABI/AAAAAAAAAAc/JTSYME-UI28/riverscenic337.jpg

Link-http://lh5.google.com/gBayPacker/RS7pWMAOABI/AAAAAAAAAAc/JTSYME-UI28/riverscenic337.jpg

I really would like to see that area north of Mason St. on the west side of the river get developed. There must be some serious contamination there warding off potential developers.

On a similar note, what do you think this latest grant for the coal pile relocation means? I know that they say it is still 10 years away, but that is as equally large in not larger gap on the river that might become vacant.

Mall- I really am surprised that nothing has happened with that place. It must be tied up in some legal issues yet. Once the bank forecloses, I cant imagine that they wouldn't try to dump it ASAP.

^^ Personally, I was excited to see the PAC shown during the game. In this forum we have always stressed the importance of promoting this area of Wisconsin as a region, rather than having all the indivirdual cities bickering over one another. I guarantee you that people's impressions of Green Bay were positively effected by the NFL showing the nice, modern downtown PAC in that segment of the game. Just as we should expect Appleton to promote itself by utilizing its regional resourses that may be in Green Bay, we should also expect Green Bay to promote itself by utilizing not only its own resourses, but also by focusing on more regional attractions such as Door County and Appleton. If/when downtown Green Bay becomes a 24 hour live/work/play area, I fully excpect Appleton to advertise this resource and its proximity to potential residents and buisnesses looking to move into the Appleton area. The Green Bay - Appleton region will only prosper if the 2 cities can learn to cooperate in such ways as was demonstrated by the NFL's clip last week.

with the recent news on the legality of police escorts from Appleton. Do you think they would of went out of there way to film something in Appleton if they didn't stay at the Paper Valley??
I am pretty sure the whole regional cooperation would of been improved if the Lambeau Tax would of included any of the Fox cities...Just to rekindle the GB - Appleton feud

It's been interesting reading in the news about the visiting NFL teams and their Brown County Sheriff escorts to games at Lambeau Field from the Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. Much has been made of the legalities these escorts require blocking traffic at intersections to allow the team through. It seems nice that Appleton benefits from the Packers even though they don't pay the stadium tax. What I'm curious to know is does Brown County taxpayers pay for these escorts or does the Green Bay Packers or the visiting NFL team pay for them?

I really would like to see that area north of Mason St. on the west side of the river get developed. There must be some serious contamination there warding off potential developers.

On a similar note, what do you think this latest grant for the coal pile relocation means? I know that they say it is still 10 years away, but that is as equally large in not larger gap on the river that might become vacant.

Mall- I really am surprised that nothing has happened with that place. It must be tied up in some legal issues yet. Once the bank forecloses, I cant imagine that they wouldn't try to dump it ASAP.

THere have been ideas/proposals for that area north of Mason St. on that unused slip on the Fox River. Here's one from a few years ago: Not sure what happened to this, but I think its pretty interesting. Might as well use that slip as a marina or something water-related:http://lh4.google.com/gBayPacker/RTFLpThVABI/AAAAAAAAAA8/Kbm0FoEtLdE/H_Brownfield%

This was in the minutes of the Mayor's Leadership Council 10/5/2006

Link to minutes (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/)

Mayor Schmitt said that downtown plans continue to evolve for the boardwalk and Younkers projects. The city is focused on the Younkers development, and developers are looking for an anchor tenant for the project. He presented his idea for redevelopment of the mall and emphasized the need for a street grid there.

Holding a display board with images of what downtown could look like, Mayor Schmitt said the city is looking for retailers that aren’t in Ashwaubenon or Appleton. He said the city deserves to be at a higher level on the riverfront and downtown and that he wants to see something like what downtown was a long time ago but with newer stores, wider sidewalks, and decorative lighting.

I'd sure like to see what the City came up with and what the Mayor's vision is for the mall redevelopment...

It would be intersting to see what actual graphics the Mayor had, and who developed them? Does city staff put this stuff together or private developers? Why do you think everything is so hush-hush when it comes to Rivercenter??? I would imagine if I was trying to promote a multi-use development I would want to get the word out. Anyways while I was browing the above mentioned minutes I also read the Redevelopmet Authority Minutes... a few intersting details


redevelopment authority minutes (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20061010MN1258.html) 10/10/2006

R. Strong provided the following updates:

Prestige Park – The easement has been recorded and transferred to the hotel. P. Kaczrowski and the hotel have signed an agreement that takes care of the $392,000 payment.

Boardwalk – Chris Reed with StoSS will be here on Friday to finalize cost estimates. He’ll then come back with final designs. The Boardwalk phasing will go as far as the TIF money will go.

A. Swanson requested to set up a special RDA meeting to provide an update on the Younkers development and Prestige Park. Members will be contacted for scheduling.

THere have been ideas/proposals for that area north of Mason St. on that unused slip on the Fox River. Here's one from a few years ago: Not sure what happened to this, but I think its pretty interesting. Might as well use that slip as a marina or something water-related:http://lh4.google.com/gBayPacker/RTFLpThVABI/AAAAAAAAAA8/Kbm0FoEtLdE/H_Brownfield%

That is exactally what is needed...

What is with the links not working

Click here http://lh4.google.com/gBayPacker/RTFLpThVABI/AAAAAAAAAA8/Kbm0FoEtLdE/H_Brownfield

Gosh,
I'd really love to see what the Mayor presented at his Leadership council meeting as well...I am sure it was an "open meeting" and that anyone could have attended...They're doing minutes, it's got to be "Open Records".

I'll check with a contact at the City to see if I can get any images from that.

IN the mean time, here is the street grid proposal from the 2000 comprehensive Plan. This grid system was the one that was removed when the mall was still operating (sort of)..Remember when the mall owners convinced the city to strike this street grid plan because they said it hurt their chances of landing tenants?

Here is the current building & street layout:

http://lh3.google.com-gBayPacker-RTQGpJg2ABI-AAAAAAAAABE-G-3bUzErKkM-GBMasterPlanCity20001.jpgimgmax=576

and here is the proposed street grid, at least as of 5 or 6 years ago:

http://lh3.google.com/gBayPacker/RTQGtmTsABI/AAAAAAAAABM/A_ubAL9iFeU/GBMasterPlanCity20002

As I said in my long, crazy post above, I really like the idea of this street grid.

[I]The city is focused on the Younkers development, and developers are looking for an anchor tenant for the project.

Usually, this is is code for "the dollars for the project aren't working out so unless we land one big tenant to bail us out don't count on seeing it built." I hope that's not the case here, but I won't be holding my breath either until I see some positive progress.

downtownvital, I checked out your website. Thats a great set-up!

Or Dan, I shoud say.

^^ Thanks

Didn't see anyone post this. Looks like the vacant commercial space vacated by Nicolet in the Riverside Condos Building will soon have 7,500 sq ft occupied...

Imaginasium moving to new location downtown

Marketing, consulting company buys former Nicolet Bank offices

By Richard Ryman

Imaginasium will take its creative ways from one part of downtown to another next month.

The strategic marketing, communications, consulting and execution company on Thursday purchased the offices on South Washington Street formerly occupied by Nicolet National Bank.

Patrick Hopkins, Imaginasium president, said his company bought 7,500 square feet on the first floor of 118 S. Washington St. It will move from its 321 George St. office, off Main Street, at the end of November. The cost of the purchase was not announced.

"We are committed to downtown. We have a lot of personality types, and downtown offers a little bit of everything," Hopkins said.

rest of article... http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061013/GPG03/610130614/1247

Also the article mentions Arketype, Inc. I heard they are renovating the former Grace Preysbeterian Church into their new offices at the corner of Monroe and Stuart Street. I think that is a great use of the property in addition to saving a historic structure.

I also heard the Special Meeting of the Redevelopment Authority mentioned above will meet on Monday morning next week to discuss River Center and Prestige Park. Hopefully good news comes out of this. In addition, hasn't it been 6 months since Vetter got an option on Site 4. I thought part of the agreement was to keep the City informed about potential tenants and progress on that site every six. Oh well, must not be too much going on if we haven't heard anything about it...

From a GBPG article about a renovation of the Stadium View Sports Bar:

Stadium View is within the Entertainment District, as outlined in the village comprehensive plan.


Development in the district, which stretches from Morris Avenue to Lombardi Avenue, is proceeding at a faster pace than village officials had anticipated, Kubacki said.


There's other nearby development. Construction is under way for a 127-room Cambria Suites hotel on Tony Canadeo Run, directly behind Stadium View. It is expected to open in May 2007 and will include a limited-service restaurant. All rooms are suites with a living area and sleeping area.

It's good to hear the Entertainment District project is moving faster than planned. If only one day I could read the same statement about downtown.

As for the RiverCenter development, I wonder what kind of tenant would put them over the top where the project was guaranteed to move forward. It's tough to get a feeling for how big that site is but when you consider that there will be condos and apartments (I believe), a hotel and the children's museum, I wonder how much commercial space they'll need to fill. Could there be that much office space in this project? My understanding was that the commercial component would be geared more towards retail space.
I can think of a handful of hotels downtown (Holiday Inn, Days, Regency, St. Brendans) so I can understand why a hotel operator could be skeptical but with the opportunity to stake a claim to what will be the focal point of the city and pass on that opportunity seems foolish. It seems to me that the city could use another high end hotel and this would be the perfect location. Are they really having trouble finding hotel to fill this prime spot? Who knows. If the hotel isn't what's holding the project up, the soft residential market could be scaring off Vetter. In a market where everyone seems to be a little timid about buying, why compete against yourself (Astor Place)? Overall it's just a downer to see at what pace the transformation is moving. I guess I just need to be more patient.

On the positive side the straightening of Washington is a great sign. I'm looking forward to the day when the site is cleared and the piles are being driven into the ground.

Oh, and the marina development drawing that Puant posted was awesome. Man oh man would I love to see that happen.

Exerpt from the 'What's Up Downtown' email message from Jeff @ Downtown Green Bay, Inc:

The Firehouse now open at 225 E. Walnut. next door to Confetti's Club. Ninety years ago the building was a fire station and the redeveloped firehouse theme is impressive. Firefighters with station ID enjoy their first drink free. Hours: Mon- Sat. 3 p.m. to close. Mon. 8 p.m. Karoakee with Smok'n Joe. Free Hydrant Pizza from 3 to 6 during Happy Hour.

Here's a picture I took of this joint recently. It's not a good picture, the renovation isn't even done yet (and I wish they'd replace the glass block windows on the upper floor with some real windows)...However, this is a nice development and the interior was done really well. .

Again, I think that even these 'small' developments are really exciting, especially when they do it "right" like I think the Firehouse owners did. Cheers, I'd love to join any of you for a tall cool one some time! :scouserd:

http://lh5.google.com/gBayPacker/RTcId__6ABI/AAAAAAAAABU/Smn36IMZ6uc/DSCN1253.JPG?
P.S. Let me know if you are having trouble viewing my images. I'm using Google's Picasa Web Album, and while that gives me lots of free storage space for images, the links get a little bit screwy for posting in this forum.

On Broadway announced an agreement reached with Birds Eye Foods for the purchase of the former Larsen Company property located on the 300-600 block of North Broadway. The financing of the project is being negotiated with the City of Green Bay. Mayor Schmitt expressed support for the redevelopment plan which must ultimately be approved by the City Council. It is expected the completed project could add an additional $100 million to the tax roles.

Plans call for renovation of some buildings and demolition of others. The area would offer condominiums, sites for creative/service, apartments, commons area, restaurant, office and retail. The plan also allows for a "Community Entrance" to area residents access to the river.

That's good news about the Larsen complex. Good to see a proactive step to take control of that property.

I was downtown today at the first of the Downtown Third Thursday (http://www.uwgb.edu/downtown) events, and while I was there took this photo of the progress on Washington St. Looks like they are starting to get the forms ready to pour the curbs.

http://www.uwgb.edu/moored/downtownvital/roadwork.jpg

On Broadway to buy Larsen site


On Broadway Inc., the nonprofit community-based redevelopment organization, announced plans today to buy the largely vacant 22-acre site of the former Larsen Canning Co.


At a sidewalk news conference outside the plant, On Broadway officials said they intend to seek developers for the multi-use property as apartments, condominiums, market pavilion, craft shops and artist studios.

Redeveloping the industrial site is vital not only to Broadway but the entire city, said Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt.

“This is very important to the area economy and could add $100 million in value to the tax rolls,” said On Broadway Inc. President Greg Larsen.

The group will seek financing for the purchase and expects to close on the property in 120 days. The current owner Birds Eye, is expected to stay as a long-term tenant for office use.

Larsen said a large concern was taking the property off the market as a manufacturing site, paving the way for multiple uses and extending street grids toward the Fox River.

“This will be such an important project,” said City Council member Celestine Jeffreys, whose aldermanic district includes the Broadway area. “The neighbors here need viable and well-integrated businesses to get the area moving.”

The original smokestack and brick buildings would be saved. Metal warehouses would be demolished. The plan would overhaul the old industrial buildings lining the east side of North Broadway into a mix of first-floor retail with upper-level apartments or condominiums.

On Broadway Inc. focuses on economic development, historic preservation and promotion of the downtown Broadway area. It is part of the Main Street program of the National Trust for Historic Preservation that promotes commercial district revitalization.


Great news. Does anyone have any more information on this? I guess I'm not real familiar with On Broadway but I'm surprised that they are able to secure financing for a project of this size. It's good to know that the property will be developed based on one master plan. I'd like to see what their vision and time frame is.

While its nice to create a spot for a couple of artist and specialty shops that will attract a small number of people, which has been already proven by the current cycle of Broadway shops opening and closing have shown, with 22 acres this is a good chance to buidl something that would attract people on a regular bases and attract a wider base of people. Look what the QUad Cities have been able to do when they think past the end of their noses. PS Hey Jim take the gum out of your mouth when you do tv interviews, we already know you are not the birghtest bulb don't add to the image looking like Bessie The Cow enjoying her miday snack

http://www.swingbaseball.com/images/gallery/jod/061804.jpeg
http://unclebobsballparks10.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/p7060354.jpg.w560h420.jpg

Artcile in today's GBPG regarding the changes to the Bellin Building coming soon...

Bellin Building will put new face forward

Work includes cleaning facade, adding lights

By Terry Anderson

Within the next few months the Bellin Building in downtown Green Bay should be taking on a new look inside and outside. Perhaps sooner if a labor agreement can be framed around the annual deer hunt.
Steve Schneider, president of the acquisition group Safford Building LLC, which earlier this year purchased the 91-year-old building, said that in the next few weeks work crews should start cleaning the terra cotta facing on the north and east sides of the nine-story building, and add decorative lighting to the building at the corner of Washington and Walnut streets.
When that happens the building will transform from its currently dingy façade to a bright, white finish.

"We're going to have the terra cotta cleaned, and at the same time we'll install the decorative lighting to the second and seventh floors," said Schneider.

Read the rest of the article: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061020/GPG03/610200550/1247

As I am very stoked, the thing that jumped out at me most was the mention of Chipotle Mexican Grill. Screw the Potbelly Sandwhich Shop, I want CHIPOTLE!!!

Also there was a more detailed article in the GBPG regarding the Larsen site with a .pdf showing the potential plan for the redevelopment of the site...

Article: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061020/GPG0101/610200618/1978

.pdf plan: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/assets/pdf/U0464471020.PDF

Vey cool. I can't even imagine what Green Bay will be like in 10 years if all of these great proposals actually become reality. I am sick of the proposal stage. Let's get building.

It's been interesting reading in the news about the visiting NFL teams and their Brown County Sheriff escorts to games at Lambeau Field from the Paper Valley Hotel in Appleton. Much has been made of the legalities these escorts require blocking traffic at intersections to allow the team through. It seems nice that Appleton benefits from the Packers even though they don't pay the stadium tax. What I'm curious to know is does Brown County taxpayers pay for these escorts or does the Green Bay Packers or the visiting NFL team pay for them?

i think this is bullcrap,
Greenbay should build a sweet hotel so this nonsense doesnt continue,

I recently passed thru greenbay on the way to wausau and its a cool town, i think its at that city/town borderline right? im not sure where you draw the line there. But this is a waste, and greenbay needs more investment, plenty of parking lots near the courthouse to make a kick ass hotel,

i had a few beers at the stein, really cool place, stella artois beer i had never had before was very good,

one question how does uw greenbay stack up?
it should be number three since greenbay is the number three city in wisconsin, but stevenspoint seems to have a nice campus, i know it depends on what you go to college for, but it does seems so far to me that stevenspoint atleast as campus towns go is number three after uwm and uw,

and number four is prob lacrosse,

enough ramblings.....

Either Chipotle or Potbelly's would be a great addition for dowtown. Not sure if either is suited for the theater crowd, though. Great places to eat for lunch or Fri/Sat nights drunk food!

I am very impressed with the PDF plan for the old Larsen site. It looks like a town within the city. I just hope the developers make it very walkable. All great cities have a pedestrian thoroughfare with shops and restaurants adjacent. Maybe the proposed boardwalk will provide some of this. Pedestrian friendly walkways are lacking in most suburban developments. Who wants to make 10 separate vehicle trips on a lovely weekend afternoon?? Would you want to walk up and down Oneida Street?

The idea of a market pavilion is great. Here is a link to a great year-round market in DC: http://www.easternmarketdc.com/

Its nothing fancy, but attracts a LOT of people on the weekends. Lots of 20-somethings also. A development like this might actually keep some of the young, professional (with lots of disposable $$) living in Green Bay. Then they can live in all those condos/townhouses...

While its nice to create a spot for a couple of artist and specialty shops that will attract a small number of people, which has been already proven by the current cycle of Broadway shops opening and closing have shown, with 22 acres this is a good chance to buidl something that would attract people on a regular bases and attract a wider base of people. Look what the QUad Cities have been able to do when they think past the end of their noses. PS Hey Jim take the gum out of your mouth when you do tv interviews, we already know you are not the birghtest bulb don't add to the image looking like Bessie The Cow enjoying her miday snack.

GBM, a question, what are you doing to make a facility like this happen? Maybe you are doing something and I just don't know about it, but if you feel this strongly about it, do something beyond complain that others aren't doing anything.

As for the specifics, that stadium in the Quad Cities looks really nice. The main difference is that it's a 4,000 seat facility of a single-A minor league team in the Midwest League, and I doubt Green Bay would get (or needs as Appleton already has) a league at that level. Plus with Joannes only a mile or so away I'm not sure another 2,000 seat stadium is the best idea, money would be better spent to improve that.

That said, I know you've talked about a performance venue like in Oshkosh as well. Seriously, if you feel this is so important, advocate for it...hard. I mean, I'd come up with a set of flexible ideas that accomplish the goal of bringing 1,000 to 3,000 people into the broadway district and respectufully but forcefully advocate for it.

One more thing, to call the Larsen plan "a spot for a couple of artist and specialty shops" really misses the point of the plan. The plans there call for a wide range of uses from residential to commercial to retail, and to be honest I think the points about artists and specialty shops are the least significant of those uses.

Bellin Building

Man, I can't wait to see that cleaned and lit up. It is going to be one beautiful building, and one that will set a very high standard for other buildings in the downtown. Hooray for those that are investing in that property!

greenbay needs more investment, plenty of parking lots near the courthouse to make a kick ass hotel...

one question how does uw greenbay stack up?

They are looking for a higher end hotel to go into the Prange's site development along the river. I don't know if it will be nice enough that NFL teams would want to stay there or not. It is true that there are planty of surface lots that could be developed into a wide range of things over time..

UW-Green Bay (and I'm partial because I'm an alum) is a different case than most of the other UW campuses in that it isn't an urban campus. Right now there are about 5,000 full-time students, with a vision to get that to about 7,500 to better serve the region. It's a very good school and demand to enroll here is very high (UWGB is usually the first school that has to close enrollment). But because of its location out on the edge of town it is harder for UWGB to have a community presence than for other UW schools, though the location has many advantages as well.

:doh: [QUOTE=gbmphillips;10172211]PS Hey Jim take the gum out of your mouth when you do tv interviews, we already know you are not the birghtest bulb don't add to the image looking like Bessie The Cow enjoying her miday snack
QUOTE]

Funny -- I've noticed this before. God bless the mayor if he's able to get some of these nifty projects off the ground, but the gum has got to go. He might also want to change the blade on his razor a little more often.

i think this is bullcrap,
Greenbay should build a sweet hotel so this nonsense doesnt continue,

I recently passed thru greenbay on the way to wausau and its a cool town, i think its at that city/town borderline right? im not sure where you draw the line there. But this is a waste, and greenbay needs more investment, plenty of parking lots near the courthouse to make a kick ass hotel,

i had a few beers at the stein, really cool place, stella artois beer i had never had before was very good,

one question how does uw greenbay stack up?
it should be number three since greenbay is the number three city in wisconsin, but stevenspoint seems to have a nice campus, i know it depends on what you go to college for, but it does seems so far to me that stevenspoint atleast as campus towns go is number three after uwm and uw,

and number four is prob lacrosse,

enough ramblings.....

When it comes to "sizing up" Green Bay as a city or just a town, most people conclude it's just a small city...That conclusion comes from the fact we have a squatty little downtown. There is no skyline, to speak of. However, it is larger and more significant than what most people give it credit for....It's just that the city and surrounding 'metro' communities are all spread out across about 131 square miles. Then there is the Fox Cities not far away...the region's urban areas are large but very spread out. There is not much density. Ah,well size is not all that matters---it's still a fine small/mid-sized city for me.

As for UW-GB's campus: It's not urban, and that is a big deal to a lot of people (including probably most of SC forum'ers). I used to be frustrated that the city & college leaders did not put that campus downtown. However, in recent years, I've changed my opinion on that. Where the UWGB campus sits is a really unique geography with really unique history. That plot of land was an opportunity for the campus and the city. Given the choices they had at the time of the campus's inception, it seemed like an easy decision to put it where it is. And as such, the campus now is unique in terms of UW campuses. It's nice in the natural setting. It preserved a heck of a lot of really nice land (speaking of the arboretum surrounding the campus). And I'm saying this as a UWSP alum (I agree Point has a nice campus!)

The main difference is that it's a 4,000 seat facility of a single-A minor league team in the Midwest League, and I doubt Green Bay would get (or needs as Appleton already has) a league at that level. Plus with Joannes only a mile or so away I'm not sure another 2,000 seat stadium is the best idea, money would be better spent to improve that.
They city, as they did and still do with many projects ruined Joannes when they tore down the old stadium and instead of doing something decent, just pop up chain likned fence and metal bleachers. As a young boy I spent many days there watching the Bluejays and the Blue RIbbons, Denny Ruh knew how to run baseball. As for the the need with the new baseball legaue coming to Green Bay and the level of play equal to single A ball a better stadium would do more to attract fans. When I use to follow the Appleton Foxes at Goodland Field they drew ok crowds, but once they moved to their new field there attendence shot up.

Look where the two new teams in the Northwoods Baseball league are going to play, Green Bay should be ashamed.

http://www.ballparkdigest.com/images/green_bay/green_bay-005.jpg

http://www.ballparkreviews.com/bcreek/bcreek4.jpg

^^ Great, I don't disagree that Joannes could be better, a lot better. So my question is, what are you going to do? Complaining about how leaders past and present aren't doing what you want never got anything done. If you feel so strongly about this, than do something so Green Bay won't need to feel ashamed. Maybe you are already working in some way on this, if that's the case I'd be curious to know about it becuase I'll bet there ae many on this board would would support such an improvement as well.

^^ Great, I don't disagree that Joannes could be better, a lot better. So my question is, what are you going to do? Complaining about how leaders past and present aren't doing what you want never got anything done. If you feel so strongly about this, than do something so Green Bay won't need to feel ashamed. Maybe you are already working in some way on this, if that's the case I'd be curious to know about it becuase I'll bet there ae many on this board would would support such an improvement as well.

Heck yeah! Let's start a letter writing campaign demanding Mayor Jim start working on this one too!

Then we can all wait for Guy Zima to shoot in down in the name of "looking out for the taxpayer..."

It's always nice to see a story about downtown development in the paper. It was a bonus to get two stories in the same day.

Bellin Building:
I was originally wondering if there were any changes in store for the brown western face of the building. It sounds like the color will stay but in the article they mentioned the new lighting to feature the fire escape. Personally I think this is pretty cool. I like the focus on the urbanity. My big disappointment with the place is the fact that the "restaurant" will likely be a Chipotle. Don't get me wrong, I love the fajita burrito and I've never seen a Chipotle that wasn't continually packed but I guess I had something else in mind. The historic and elegant nature of the building doesn't seem to mesh with a glorified fast food restaurant. Didn't someone on this board mention the possibility of the Black & Tan moving in? That seems like the perfect match. I'm still holding out hope that something of that level ends up there.

Larsen complex:
GBM, I must admit, the picture of the baseball stadium on the riverfront is very impressive. But I really like the plan put forward by On Broadway. On its own Green Bay has developed two distinct sides of the river, the more corporate east side and the funkier west side. I like the fact that the Broadway district is being embraced for what it is and that this development fits in with what has already grown there. I still like the idea of some sort of ampitheater on the west side of the river. I'd love the future development on the east side to be the backdrop for a musical act or outdoor play.

As for Joannes, used to play there when I was in high school but I haven't seen the place for almost 10 years. It was always my favorite field to play at and I think, given its historic nature, it has the potential to be a very cool stadium. The downtown riverfront staduim would be a fun addition but maybe if the Northwoods team does well attendance wise proper renovations can be made at Joannes. New stadiums are nice but you can't beat the places that have been around for 100 years.

The post of the last day or so have been great! The fact that we can discuss here at least shows the GB Metro is developing. Think back 5 years ago where would this thread would have gone?

I think all of you make valid points, yes Joanees was much better with the grandstand, Broadway will be cool, we do need a Venue of some-type Downtown, and it is easier to complain then make a difference.

A few thoughts. We need a new baseball park? How about taking off the roof of the Brounty County Arena?(isn't it leaking anyway?) Then parse out home field, out field, etc. We then have the Green Bay sports district. Resch, Lambeau and baseball park! Yes it may be Ashwaubenon but it is still GB as well





Meyer- Is very nice. Maybe a bit too small for some events, Can someone dig up the Weidner(seldom used now) and connect it via the old Daily Planet. We then have the PAC.

Hotel- Vetter seems first class, I think they should market a GB Hilton or Marriott. We can then have visiting team stay in GB to get their ass kicked!(by the time it gets built, I would hope the Pack is back) If that project falls thru(river center) we would then be dreaming of Juza's Sheraton-4 Points.

The GB thread is great and you gentlemen provide much insight! look what I am doing on a friday night

i think this is bullcrap,
Greenbay should build a sweet hotel so this nonsense doesnt continue,

I recently passed thru greenbay on the way to wausau and its a cool town, i think its at that city/town borderline right? im not sure where you draw the line there. But this is a waste, and greenbay needs more investment, plenty of parking lots near the courthouse to make a kick ass hotel,



The other reason why opposing teams stay outside Green Bay is mainly due to the distraction isn't it? We all know we do not have a 4 or 5 star hotel that is nice enough to hold an opposing team.

I am not sure but I thought Steve Schneider told me Black & Tan on the 2nd floor, but maybe Chipotle is also competing for that restaurant location. I am really excited about this Bellin Building. Everytime I talk about the exciting news about downtown I hear locals say, "I will believe it when I see it" or "Oh really, I didn't know Green Bay is getting all of those new condos or buildings!" Seems like the local people have given up on the downtown. I can't wait to see their reaction in a few years.

one question how does uw greenbay stack up?
it should be number three since greenbay is the number three city in wisconsin, but stevenspoint seems to have a nice campus, i know it depends on what you go to college for, but it does seems so far to me that stevenspoint atleast as campus towns go is number three after uwm and uw,

and number four is prob lacrosse,

enough ramblings.....

Not sure how other majors stack up, but other than Madison and UWM, UW Oshkosh has the only accredited MBA program in the UW system.

I am not sure but I thought Steve Schneider told me Black & Tan on the 2nd floor, but maybe Chipotle is also competing for that restaurant location. I am really excited about this Bellin Building.

That is how I understood the plan, 1st floor having something like Chipotle, and the 2nd floor having something classier along the lines of Black & Tan. I guess plans can change, but I haven't heard that they have.

Any new rumours on the old Daily Planet site?

The Appleton versus Green Bay airport has come up in this thread before. In todays Post-Crescent there is an interesting story about how the two airports compete for the same market:

Outagamie airport battles for Fox Valley fliers

By Ed Lowe
Post-Crescent staff writer

GREENVILLE — Passenger traffic setbacks are uncommon enough throughout the dynamic history of Outagamie County Regional Airport here.


But to lose ground to rival Austin Straubel International Airport? That only makes matters appear worse to officials who for decades watched the Fox Cities airport gain ground on its larger competitor 25 miles northeast.


It is in this environment that Don Hoeft, the longtime Austin Straubel chief appointed director at Outagamie in August 2005, must navigate.


Year-to-date through September, passenger boardings at Outagamie are down 10.8 percent from the same period a year ago, to 216,291. Austin Straubel, with 342,340 boarded passengers during the same period, is enjoying a 5.4 percent increase.


"There's this little thing that gnaws at some people here, and that's that they want to beat Green Bay," Hoeft said. "When they see that separation get a little wider, there's a concern: 'You know, we were gaining on them all this time, and now they are pulling away from us.'"


It's been a prosperous coexistence between the two commercial passenger airports sharing the Fox Valley market, despite the superior growth rate of the upstart, which settled in Greenville in 1965. The Outagamie airport's vision statement projects its future as "the leading passenger, cargo and aircraft services airport in northeast Wisconsin."


The airport vision, approved before Hoeft's arrival in Greenville, reflects the expectations of an earlier era.


"If we look at this as a marathon, as opposed to a sprint, we're going to be a lot better off," said Hoeft, who maintains airport reinvestment will ensure the Greenville airport's long-term ascent. "Let's see how things look 10 or 15 years from now."


Hoeft notes the passenger tallies ignore that the Outagamie airport is the dominant air-freight center north of Milwaukee, and that it boasts a tenant roster including both the 750-employee, airplane-building facility of Gulfstream Aviation and the corporate headquarters of Air Wisconsin.


It remains the state's fourth-busiest passenger airport, trailing those serving the markets of Milwaukee, Madison and Green Bay. The recent flow of traffic suggests no change anytime soon.


A tale of two facilities

Hoeft played down the competitive relationship between the Fox Valley airports when he was tapped by Outagamie County Executive Toby Paltzer to serve as the interim airport manager in Greenville while also serving as the Austin Straubel director, in 1999.


Now, however, much has changed.


"Of course we compete," Hoeft said. "If you draw the circles — here's the Green Bay market and here's the Appleton market — we compete for the travelers in areas where the circles overlap."


The contested territories include Kaukauna and Wrightstown, whose residents are roughly equidistant from either airline base.


"We spent probably $50,000 last year trying to convince travelers in that market area that it was better to fly out of Appleton that it was to fly out of Green Bay," Hoeft said.


The battle lines get fuzzier in the outlying areas.


"Shawano is actually closer to our airport than it is to Green Bay, but perception is that Shawano is a Green Bay market," Hoeft said. "We would take exception to that."


Distance is not the only factor at work. A recent independent study of passenger traffic shows that average airfare prices have risen faster at Outagamie than at Austin Straubel within the past year, and ended up 6 percent higher at the fourth quarter of last year.


The study, prepared by a national airline consulting firm and released June 30, shows the Green Bay-area airport tends to hold onto about 80 percent of its native-market passenger traffic, while the Greenville airport captures about 60 percent of its own.


A disproportionate share of Outagamie's higher-fare business travelers did gravitate to competing airports last year.


Among them was frequent business traveler Scott Hamilton of Greenville, who says the typical business fares at Outagamie have escalated beyond what convenience, and his employer, can justify.


"Typically, I fly out of Green Bay because I find the flights there tend to be substantially cheaper," said Hamilton, who flies on short-notice business trips 15 to 20 times per year.


"Over the past nine to 12 months, there's been a significant difference in the pricing at Appleton."


Hamilton said he could justify paying $50 to $80 more per ticket to depart from his local airport, but seldom are the fares comparable.


"It's only a 35-minute drive" to Austin Straubel "and the parking (cost) is comparable," he said.


The carriers serving Outagamie have reduced fares in recent months, bringing them back to overall parity with Green Bay, Hoeft noted.


Shared concerns

Airport traffic counts are determined by forces greater than local competition among regional airports, said Austin Straubel director Tom Miller.


"It's just not the airfares" that determine if local passenger numbers rise or fall, Miller said. "It's just not the local community. It has a lot to do with the national economy, the airlines and everything else."


Miller noted that new flight services at Austin Straubel have offset the negative impact of the same legacy-carrier service reductions that recently have hurt Appleton and other regional airports throughout the country.


Miller also described a general softening of airline passenger traffic in Green Bay during recent months as consistent with signs of a broader economic slowdown. Airline travel levels tend to serve as a reliable predictor of pending economic conditions, he said.


The local airport traffic comparison might attract less notice if not for recent history. Outagamie's rapid ascent during the 1980s and 1990s corresponded neatly with the collapse of passenger service at Wittman Regional Airport in Oshkosh, 20 miles to its south.


Dennis Braun, a retired Appleton banker who calls the Outagamie airport "vital" to the economic success of the Fox Cities, said the airport's ability to recruit K-C Aviation away from the Winnebago County-owned airport in Oshkosh set both facilities in opposite directions.


"After the loss of K-C Aviation, I could see the decline of the airport at Oshkosh," said Braun, now an occasional leisure traveler who schedules flights from Greenville when possible. "That is, the scheduled passenger traffic became less and less. It is that pattern that makes me nervous about the viability of the Outagamie airport.


"I am aware that more and more people from the (Fox Cities) drive to Green Bay for flights because of the lower costs. Many of my retired friends who like to travel have gone to Green Bay for that reason."


Sky's not falling, Hoeft says

Hoeft cautioned that the findings of the study, which he authorized as a tool to measure the specific impact of airline-industry bankruptcies, should not be viewed as evidence of a long-term downward trend in local traffic.


"Of course, it's looking at a very narrow (time) window," Hoeft said. "If you did that leakage study today, many things would have changed in a positive way."


The study indicates that the Outagamie airport's passenger capacity dropped 20 percent during the past year. Though the reductions are partly the result of service and capacity cuts by Northwest and Delta, which each filed for bankruptcy protection in September 2005.


However, Hoeft said the fallout of the bankruptcy of United in 2002 took a greater toll.


United's restructuring ultimately severed its contract with longtime regional affiliate Air Wisconsin, freezing the Greenville-based carrier out of the market in which it maintains its corporate operations. Hoeft said he is confident Air Wisconsin will re-emerge as a significant local passenger carrier as a result of its new affiliation with U.S. Airways, which merged with American West Airlines last year.


"The only region where this expanded company can increase its activity on a significant level is in the Midwest, and Air Wisconsin is positioned perfectly for that potential to grow."

http://postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061023/APC0101/610230540&located=FLASH

I was at the RDA meeting today, here's what I learned (I got there about 5 minutes late so I missed a bit about Astor Place):

At Astor Place, getting those who have reserved units to convert those into agreemements to purchase has been going more slowly than expected. They are now hoping to have a better idea how that process is going by Thanksgiving. Vetter said that some of the buyers who locked in early on are tenative about making the next step to committ, and that they (Vetter and Jen Kuo) will have to set some deadlines for those people to do so. He indicated that there are others who would step in for those units if they reservations are not converted, and that he's confident about the project or else he would not have gone ahead and signed the developer's agreement.

At River Center, it looks like there are a number of changes. They have been in negotiations with a major commercial tenant, but he doesn't seem to confident about that coming together just yet. Because of this, he has decided to divide the project into two phases.

The first phase consists of the rental lofts, condos in the $140,000 range, and retail space. They would knock down the oldest part of Pragne's along Washington, the southern 2/3 of the white part on the north of the property, and keep the yellow part. The remaining white part would be stripped down (to its frame as far as I can tell), expanded a bit towards the river, and converted into the rental units. The yellow part would be stripped down as well, have two floors added on, and converted into the condos. Parking and the Children's Museum would be where the historic part of Pragne's was, and there would be a fair bit of retail on the first floor around the site.

The second phase would be the commercial component above the parking and Museum. It doesn't sound like getting a hotel in the complex is going too well, so that isn't so much a part of the plan any longer, though it could be as part of the commercial tower. With the state grant helping the project, and changing to the phased plan, he would like to start demolition for phase one in November.

I greet today's news like a double edged sword. Some positive, some negative. I guess I am happy that something will be occurring on that site, but at the same time - once again the Green Bay stigma rears its ugly head. Didn't Juza have a hotel lined up? Does he have an exclusive clause with them that they lost interest in brining a hotel downtown all together? I just think that we shelved Juza's plans because we wanted something bigger and better for the site and that ended up being Vetter's plans. Now I know he was one of very few that had any "real" plans, but now I question how realistic they were/are. I could have proposed a 30 story tower with a hotel and condos and blah blah blah, and it would have been better than Juza's plans. But how much closer would we be to reality? I know I have always been a believer in "if they just start building this stuff, things will begin to happen". But I'm starting to go back to the fail-safe belief that I will believe it when I see it. Now that there are two phases, does a new development agreement need to be drafted and considered. All we need is another crack for the Council to turn this down. Oh well. I seriously doubt Site 4 will develop within the next five years, and with River Center failing to attract a large tenant (hotel/office) I am assuming the same fate will be with the Daily Planet site. I saw the rendering for that building and if it was ever to built, it would have been a slam dunk as my favorite building in Green Bay. The mall still sits there and the ramp retail still sits empty. It is great to have plans, but plans are just plans until they are reality. I really hope this time that things are different, but if not - it's really nothing new to us who live and love Green Bay. It's almost like a way of life.

GB4Life:

I think you hit the nail on the head with your entire post. I, too, feel a little bit 'sobered' with today's news. At the same time, I feel glad that the whole damn thing hasn't been totally scrapped.

I'll continue to keep the faith, again, because it's been demonstrated that when a top-notch building/facility is built, the tenants DO come. Again--Nicolet Bank and other recent additions to the downtown would seem prove that. Was Nicolet fully leased when it was built? No. Only half of the offices were leased as it was being constructed, if I remember correctly.

Once people saw it, though, the offices quickly filled up.

It's kind of a downer but I guess a start is a start even if it's only half of what we were expecting. I'd love to see some serious action down there but I can understand where Vetter is coming from. To put up two multi million dollar buildings without any assurances that they'll be even half occupied by the ribbon cutting has to be somewhat unnerving. I'm sure his stress level is through the roof these days.

Dan, a couple questions. Did you get word on when Astor Place is to break ground? And did you get a chance to speak with Vetter directly? Thanks for the info, by the way.

I seriously doubt Site 4 will develop within the next five years, and with River Center failing to attract a large tenant (hotel/office) I am assuming the same fate will be with the Daily Planet site. I saw the rendering for that building and if it was ever to built, it would have been a slam dunk as my favorite building in Green Bay.

GB4L, do you know of any place where I could check out the drawings (I apologize if it's been posted before)?

Looks like da mayor ain't gonna git what he thought. This will be scaled down again and again....better hold off on funding that boardwalk also....and I wouldn't get my hopes up on Broadway. Some good things have happened downtown its becoming clear that reality may be coming back.....

On another topic came across this comment about Green Bay, "Though Green Bay seems like an area that could support its own professional team, Joannes Stadium is certainly not suitable for anything more than amateur baseball."

Yeah but we can invest millions in a riverwalk that will do nothing but benefit a few. :toilet:

I think we all have our doubts that anything will happen downtown anytime soon. If there really was much interest something would have happened by now. I had more hope in Vetter getting things done then I did with the Juza proposal, just based on past experiance. As far as Astor Place is concearned I thought that it took wayyyyy tooooooooo loooooong to get anything going. when it was announced people were fired up it was like 60% reserved, it had Abravo cafe lined up.... and then time went on and on and on and interest wained and the Downtown stigma returned. Now is it even going to get built??? What will Vetter loose if he voids the developers agreement???

I always thought the some progress was better then none, so I am glad that they decided to split up Rivercenter. The Childrens Museum has some money set aside, Vetter and Co. have secured money to be used for rent assistance and we can start to see some development. I view that as all positives. With time a hotel will come maybe once the ground is broke on Astor Place and Rivercenter Phase 1 gets going, faith will return.

I too am interested to see the 'Daily Planet' site renderings. Please share if possible.

I think the way things have played out I would prefer to have something going on at the Younkers site, the Bellin Building makeover, and then get the Daily Planet site and hopefullly get that ramp retail going to pay off some of that debt and buildup all the almight tif $ to pay for the Boardwalk.

I stopped over at the Firehouse last week to check it out, it is really nice but it sure remindes me of like eveyother place on Washington St. At least it is another void filled in the long list of vacant buildings downtown.

Sorry for the long winded post but I believe that, Build it and they will come... :cheers:

WBAY.COM (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=5578245)

Oct 23, 2006 04:21 PM By Jason Allen

It's been more than two years since something happened inside the prominent Younkers building in downtown Green Bay. Now a city decision puts a developer's plans for the space on the fast track.

For almost a year, developers have tried to nail down a solid anchor tenant for the building, like a big business or hotel, so they could start transforming the space into River Center and fill it with condos, apartments and retail stores. But no one, so far, has been willing to commit.

"More so in Green Bay, it really is a touch-and-feel, wait-and-see if it'll happen market," said Milwaukee developer John Vetter, who's behind the River Center project.

After numerous comments over the last few years about how complicated it is turning the old department store building into something new, the city agreed Monday to split the project into two phases, allowing the project to get started by the end of the year.

Phase one will go on without the commercial interest. Demolition will begin soon and be followed by apartment, condo, and retail construction, plus parking and the Green Bay Children's Museum.

Phase two, the commercial part, can happen when it's ready, when companies see what's been accomplished.

"We just feel that we need to proceed with that and there's a good-faith effort by the city and developer to get things underway and people will follow," Allison Swanson, Green Bay Economic Development, said.

Vetter has another project right next door to Younkers. City crews have been preparing the site for an 18-story condo tower, but with the change in plans on Monday, you could see the Younkers building come down before the other building starts going up.

Good ifnormation on here today.

phillips--
I realize that not everyone is a fan of the mayor. But does that mean that his initiatives are all bad? The waterfront development isn't just Mayor Schmidt's project. It is wanted/needed by many more than he. Remind me--What would you like to see on the waterfront, again? (instead of the boardwalk)

By the way, I agree with you on the baseball stadium. I think that would be great.

Good ifnormation on here today.

phillips--
I realize that not everyone is a fan of the mayor. But does that mean that his initiatives are all bad? The waterfront development isn't just Mayor Schmidt's project. It is wanted/needed by many more than he. Remind me--What would you like to see on the waterfront, again? (instead of the boardwalk)

By the way, I agree with you on the baseball stadium. I think that would be great.

I can see gbmphillips perspective. at least about the boardwalk that is...
Really 12 million seems like a bit excessive, for that amount we could buy the mall, tear it down and build a park there, and still have money left over. Not saying that the two would compair, but we would see much more improvement for our $. I think the city needs to show some numbers on this thing. Maybe we should rethink this boardwalk and phase in what is attainable and also work towards a new baseball stadium? I love going to t-rats games, if it was closer I probabally would go more often, so lets really think about this baseball stadium again.

Should we rebuild the staduim at Joannes? I don't think so.

If a new one was to be built where should it go? That I am not really sure on. My first thought would be just north of Mason St. that would be a great area, that whole area around would redevelop, plus you could be driving by on mason and see some action, that would be cool, but to be a realist on the subject, it will take up quite a bit of land that will rarely generates any revenue. You will need a huge parking lot to accomidate all of the cars and real estate/parking downtown is not cheap.

Maybe a suggestion that was brought up before makes sence, take down the old BCA and build a baseball stadium there, eveything already is in place.

Any comments????

double post

I like all of the plans that have developed downtown on both sides of the river, the boardwalk is the one component that is excessive and as far as I see unnecssary. I think a ball park where the canning factory is would be a great spot. You have the parking ramp across the river, you have resturants and stores already in the area. As for use of the land what is there 22 acres there, I may be mistaken on that but even if 10 was used for the ballpark, which seems excessive, there would still be room for development of specialty type stores and resturants. Honestly what would be a bigger draw, baseball or a boardwalk?

WBAY.COM (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=5578245)

Oct 23, 2006 04:21 PM By Jason Allen

It's been more than two years since something happened inside the prominent Younkers building in downtown Green Bay. Now a city decision puts a developer's plans for the space on the fast track.

For almost a year, developers have tried to nail down a solid anchor tenant for the building, like a big business or hotel, so they could start transforming the space into River Center and fill it with condos, apartments and retail stores. But no one, so far, has been willing to commit.

"More so in Green Bay, it really is a touch-and-feel, wait-and-see if it'll happen market," said Milwaukee developer John Vetter, who's behind the River Center project.

After numerous comments over the last few years about how complicated it is turning the old department store building into something new, the city agreed Monday to split the project into two phases, allowing the project to get started by the end of the year.

Phase one will go on without the commercial interest. Demolition will begin soon and be followed by apartment, condo, and retail construction, plus parking and the Green Bay Children's Museum.

Phase two, the commercial part, can happen when it's ready, when companies see what's been accomplished.

"We just feel that we need to proceed with that and there's a good-faith effort by the city and developer to get things underway and people will follow," Allison Swanson, Green Bay Economic Development, said.

Vetter has another project right next door to Younkers. City crews have been preparing the site for an 18-story condo tower, but with the change in plans on Monday, you could see the Younkers building come down before the other building starts going up.


If this is Green Bay's version of putting a project on the fast track, then no wonder a large tenant has yet to commit!

In regard to this baseball stadium situation. Here is my take. Why would we choose now to build a stadium downtown? This was looked at back in May of 1999 by the City of Green Bay and as many could have guessed this never got off the ground. And I’m not talking about small time players either, there was a group of out of state investors, developers, etc that were looking at this. A whole stadium/entertainment complex proposal. One of the reasons it never got off the ground was lack of forecasted revenue. What happens if you build a stadium downtown and league folds and team is dissolved? Wow, you’re left with something that really can only be used for one thing and on top of that for a limited time period during the year. We already have Joannes, and yes the new team will be required to improve that park to league standards. If they want to build it and pay for it all, then I am all ears – if not let’s focus on the Boardwalk.

When faced with a choice of funding the Boardwalk vs. funding a baseball stadium – I would favor the boardwalk. One is you don’t have competition from another boardwalk in Appleton, which is 30 minutes away like you do in regard to Fox Cities Stadium. We have seen how direct competition plays out in terms of the PAC vs. the Weidner. Appleton City leaders were willing to take that risk and it paid off. But were talking apples and oranges when you compare a performing arts center vs. a baseball stadium. Again, year round vs. 3 or 4 months. I’m not a huge baseball fan, so I myself would not be overly supportive of constructing a baseball stadium downtown. Especially now with the plans for the Larsen site public. Creating the niche, that urban neighborhood, the continuation of Broadway is something this City needs. Think of Brady Street in Milwaukee or State Street in Madison, this will hopefully have that same effect. It is great to look at stadiums in other similar sized cities and the success and failures, but let’s remember this is Green Bay. Nuff said.

Back to my boardwalk argument. That is something unique and can be utilized year round. Think of the holiday tree lighting, or maybe expanding some of the festivals like International Bayfest or Art Street into this area to get that true boardwalk feel – plus not to mention the restaurants and retail that will line it. I think the 4th of July fireworks being watched from the boardwalk would be pretty cool. Or strolling down the Boardwalk after dinner and listening to some guy strum away on his guitar. This won’t be “only” for the people living in Astor or River Center – the same way that the current trail isn’t walked on by people that work in the Younkers building. Oh wait, no one works in that building. Okay, sorry attempt at sarcasm.

Last argument. The river is for everyone. This Boardwalk will open a section of the river up that was once lined with a parking ramp and is still lined with an abandoned warehouse and department store. Milwaukee took a chance on their Riverwalk and I remember how people thought it was a waste of money and no one will use it except homeless people, etc. etc.

As far as the rendering for the Daily Planet site. Sorry. Two problems. One is I saw it on paper, not in digital format. The other is that it is not for public release yet. Not that it will kill the project, more than likely it would drum up support for the building looking the way it did when I saw it versus what the paper said about 4 stories.

Sorry for the long post, but I am pretty sold on the boardwalk.

Just saw this in the Journal but hopefully they will expand into the Green Bay market.

Chili's restaurant plans state expansion

Brinker International Inc. (EAT), the Dallas operator of Chili's Grill & Bar, announced plans today to expand in Wisconsin.

In announcing fiscal-first quarter earnings, the parent company of Chili's, Romano's Macaroni Grill, Maggiano's Little Italy and On The Border Mexican Grill & Cantina restaurants said that it had sold 15 Chili's restaurants to a franchisee with development commitments to build 31 new restaurants in Wisconsin and the St. Louis markets.

Brinker posted net income of $47.6 million, or 57 cents a share, up 50% from $31.7 million, or 36 cents, a year ago. Year-ago results included a $6.7 million loss from discontinued operations. Revenue increased 6.6% to $1.04 billion from $976 million.

As of Sept. 30, Brinker's owned, operated or franchised 1,662 restaurants.

Very well said GB4Life.

Just saw this in the Journal but hopefully they will expand into the Green Bay market.

I gotta ask: why? In my opinion, the last thing Green Bay needs is another chain restaurant. I mean, doesn't GB already have enough Appleby's, TGI Fridays, and representatives from about 2 or 3 dozen other Chili's knockoffs already?

Besides, if they did move into GB, they'd probably just throw up another box/parking lot combo in Ashwaubenon or Bellvue, which would just provide people with another reason to stay away from downtown GB.

I know a ballpark will not get built in Green Bay, but I have to question the $12,000,000 boardwalk. I do not see this as the best way to spending money in the downtown area especially now that Vetter has fallen on shaky ground.

Back in Dec it was stated , for River Center the developer would close on the site by May 1, begin demolition within 30 days and complete River Center within 2½ years.

At the same time it was said that Vetter Denk would buy the Flatley site for $200,000 before July 1, begin construction on Astor Place within 30 days and complete within 20 months. Vetter Denk would personally guarantee an assessed value of $33.2 million.

How much of this has happened? I don't think there is anything that can be done to stop that project but I think it is something that needs to be revaluated. I guess its time to give Guy a call and see whats what with the project.

I gotta ask: why? In my opinion, the last thing Green Bay needs is another chain restaurant. I mean, doesn't GB already have enough Appleby's, TGI Fridays, and representatives from about 2 or 3 dozen other Chili's knockoffs already?

Besides, if they did move into GB, they'd probably just throw up another box/parking lot combo in Ashwaubenon or Bellvue, which would just provide people with another reason to stay away from downtown GB.

I would say so that it shows other retail establishments that this market can support these larger national chains that aren't here. Personally I too would rather go to a local restaurant than a chain, but at the same time there is a need and an image that the Green Bay area needs to project.


I know a ballpark will not get built in Green Bay, but I have to question the $12,000,000 boardwalk. I do not see this as the best way to spending money in the downtown area especially now that Vetter has fallen on shaky ground.

Back in Dec it was stated , for River Center the developer would close on the site by May 1, begin demolition within 30 days and complete River Center within 2½ years.

At the same time it was said that Vetter Denk would buy the Flatley site for $200,000 before July 1, begin construction on Astor Place within 30 days and complete within 20 months. Vetter Denk would personally guarantee an assessed value of $33.2 million.

How much of this has happened? I don't think there is anything that can be done to stop that project but I think it is something that needs to be revaluated. I guess its time to give Guy a call and see whats what with the project.

As for the Boardwalk, things take time. Again I have frustration that things have not happended as quickly as well. But you can't predict the economy, housing market, and expansion of retail establishments. All those elements factor into schedule. Cities like Chicago have that demand where things can get done quickly, Green Bay doesn't. Does that mean good things won't come to those who wait? And as for the Boardwalk. I believe it would be funded by money generated from the TIF as well as private donations. So if someone wants to give a million dollars to the Boardwalk, that is their decision, not the City of Green Bay.

I would say so that it shows other retail establishments that this market can support these larger national chains that aren't here. Personally I too would rather go to a local restaurant than a chain, but at the same time there is a need and an image that the Green Bay area needs to project.

I personally feel that the Green Bay area has already thoroughly demonstrated that it can support large chain restaurants. In fact, I'd say that is, what the vast majority of it's restaurant scene is based on. And really, that works to it's detriment, not it's benefit, because people percieve that as being the ONLY thing the city can support.

I personally feel that the Green Bay area has already thoroughly demonstrated that it can support large chain restaurants. In fact, I'd say that is, what the vast majority of it's restaurant scene is based on. And really, that works to it's detriment, not it's benefit, because people percieve that as being the ONLY thing the city can support.

So for the sake of discussion, those indivduals that do frequent these restaurants should not have that oppurtunity for variety? If I want to go to TGI Friday's, I have to go to Appleton. If I wanted to go to Chilie's - I have to go out of state. Same with On the Border, Chipotle, Macaroni Grill, Cheesecake Factory, and the list goes on and on. All these restaurants, although they are chains do create traffic and people frequenting them. This may lead to other economic development around those places where there is increased traffic. We do have many local favor restaurants that I frequent many times more than Applebee's or Perkins (like 10-0-1 Club, Hinterland, Wally's Spot, Titletown) but those other choices should be here for people to make that decision if they want to eat there or not. I would say the really sad places are the ones that have only chains as choices. Green Bay is not one of those places. But the sorry fact is, until you can prove that these chain restaurants that seem to be everywhere but here can survice and thrive here, other more prominent chains (like Ruth Criss Steakhouse the Cheesecake Factory) wouldn't even stop for a second to consider Green Bay.