^^
you're the one who should be asked

Anyway to back to our topic, anyone knows the model of the clock? OMEGA, ROLEX .......etc ?

I don't know the providers of the mechanism, however, I do hope there is no corporate logo on it.

Malec - I do understand where you are coming from with respect to attacks on this thread. One thing I do want to point out is that some of the 'under cover' attacks may not be understood by the moderators. Many Muslims have actually suggested this project itself is an attack on Muslim history and diversity (including the Turks). The interesting twist I've seen on this thread is that anyone bringing up this type of fact here is automatically but into the basket of being anti-Muslim. The recent comment from 'Shahid' is an example. This is like one Christian group calling all others something other than Christian. It is a very nasty attack.

Anyway - I've said my piece in this regard. I'll do my best going forward - however, I don't appreciate being attacked for bringing up facts either.

[I do recognize there is the additional thread you've created for some of this. Thank-you for that! It did get quite a bit of discussion going for a while.]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2063/1923394803_86de2c087c.jpg?v=0


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2388/1923392717_6eb5bec268.jpg?v=0


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2210/1924221730_9dd36eb369.jpg?v=0

By Raimy Sofyan from Flickr.

WOW! I like it!!! Go Mecca, I love this city and especially that big mosque and the Kaaba in the center! Will visit someday Mecca :D

OMG, this has to be one of the most grandiose buildings on earth.

Very nice but mall open????? or is this render

Yea it's unussuall how they opened it before the building is even finished getting built lol, how often does this happen?

Yea it's unussuall how they opened it before the building is even finished getting built lol, how often does this happen?

They are opening the hotel in Trump Tower Chicago before the upper 1/2 ( condos ) are finished.

Nice entrance - has that "Islamic" look, the mall could be in any-city USA.

has that "Islamic" look

This type of comment always catches my eye. What is an "Islamic" look?

This type of comment always catches my eye. What is an "Islamic" look?

Perhaps one that is characterized by a series of arches, geometric patterns, an array of geometric patterns and shapes arranged in a pleasing visual form, and simplicity of design.

BTW, nice job Malec ;)

^^Yes, the entrance is very Islamic and you can clearly see it in the arcs and columns.

Yea it's unussuall how they opened it before the building is even finished getting built lol, how often does this happen?

The ICC in Hong Kong will open in phases - i.e., before the whole building is complete.

By the way only half of the mall is opened and the another half is being finished and will be opened in hajj inshallah (God willing) as scheduled unless if they could not finish it.

By the way only half of the mall is opened and the another half is being finished and will be opened in hajj inshallah (God willing) as scheduled unless if they could not finish it.

BTW, I think Movenpick is the hotel in this complex, or am I wrong? And is that small awkward building (7 floors) in front of the Abraj demolished, cause its just looks sooo out of context? Are any of the residential buildings occupied at the moment?

^^ still not known but I hear some rumors but anyway there is nothing official and hotel's name is called Makkah Royal Hotel as I said before.

About this small ugly building, Yes it will be demolished inshallah (God willing).

Occupied buildings are:

1- Part of Al-Safa Tower.
2- Al-Marwa Tower.
3- ZamZam Tower.
4- Most of the podium.

Hey, it should look islamic. they are building it in Mecca :D

Then entrance and the mall are amazing.

The entrance is very islamic look and very nice!!.. but inside the mall does not look islamic look..

inside the mall could have done better..

^^ The mall is good but to be honest with all of you, The main problems in design of the mall are as the following:

1- Colors: Green, Grey & Red??? This is weird!!
2- Finishing: The project is still under construction, We can not judge yet but from what have been done, Gypsum waves are looking very bad and the gaps between the tublar ceiling are big enough to show the entire Electro-Mechanical work which has been painted to be black but still can be seen.
3- The design of the big waves at the top and the panels is very very bad.
4- the pulley of the capsule lift is vertical and that is why they could not cladd its path.

People go there and start taking pictures for the mall and they feel surprised and most of them say "WOW". They are not proffessionals to detect the mistakes.. That is why they find it WOW but for proffessionals, they can detect the mentioned above mistakes easily.

For sure, this is my opinion and each one is free to agree with me or not.

This type of comment always catches my eye. What is an "Islamic" look?

Had to think on this --- coming from middle USA I think of Ottoman and Arabian styles as Islamic - I know this is a gross generalization, hence the "s

[from Riyadhi's post]
"Islamic"
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2246/1968191866_b9f6f7026b_o.jpg

Frank Llyod Wright meets the arch.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/1968192018_b42cf8ac85.jpg?v=0

Interesting Dream1981.

Any chance you could take pictures of the problems in design you talk about?

WOW! I like it!!! Go Mecca, I love this city and especially that big mosque and the Kaaba in the center! Will visit someday Mecca :D

you cant non-muslims are not allowed in the city

you cant non-muslims are not allowed in the city

Please dont start another war of words.
Status quo: Makkah and Medina are offlimits to non-Muslims... Dont refute it, cause it will only add unnessessary posts to this thread and will lead to debates.

See this thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=321337

Perhaps one that is characterized by a series of arches, geometric patterns, an array of geometric patterns and shapes arranged in a pleasing visual form, and simplicity of design.

I was actually asking HarryC of Oak Park, Il who made the comment, and not Halawala of Doha. I'm curious of the perceptions of people outside of the middle east. I have some thoughts on this also (and I've shared a diversity of examples in the past) but I'm really curious of what view Oak Park gets.

Had to think on this --- coming from middle USA I think of Ottoman and Arabian styles as Islamic - I know this is a gross generalization, hence the "s

[from Riyadhi's post]
"Islamic"
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2246/1968191866_b9f6f7026b_o.jpg

Frank Llyod Wright meets the arch.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2319/1968192018_b42cf8ac85.jpg?v=0

Thanks for the response - and I'm happy the question made you think. It is interesting that architecture styles are not exclusive to each other, and in fact philosophical areas such as 'Islamic styled architecture' are more about themes rather than specific elements. Balance, engaging environment, humility, etcetera. Descriptions such as arches are more interpretations of the themes. Those interpretations have also changed with time and place, particularly with the large and diverse muslim world, and sometimes have been adapted more uniquely in occidental settings.

While this is a pinch of a tangent, folks interested in 'Islamic Architecture' may want to visit Archnet.org (http://www.archnet.org) -
"ArchNet is an international online community for architects, planners, urban designers, landscape architects, conservationists, and scholars, with a focus on Muslim cultures and civilisations."

Archnet contains over 50,000 images, over 4,000 publications, and with over 50,000 members has some wonderful debates on-going in their forums on topics just like the one above.

I was actually asking HarryC of Oak Park, Il who made the comment, and not Halawala of Doha. I'm curious of the perceptions of people outside of the middle east. I have some thoughts on this also (and I've shared a diversity of examples in the past) but I'm really curious of what view Oak Park gets.

Then, you should have rephrased your question more carefully to specifiy whom your talking to, which are people who live outside the Middle East. Your question was general therefore I answered it.

Interesting Dream1981.

Any chance you could take pictures of the problems in design you talk about?

I will try inshallah (God willing) but anyway they are still working there at night when there are no people in the mall. I think it is not fair to judge now if the finishing of the mall is bad or good. Let's give them some time.

^^ Totally agree.

I was under the impression you were referring to the part of the mall which was already finished :)

This type of comment always catches my eye. What is an "Islamic" look?

"Middle Eastern" or "Arabian" is probably a more apt descriptor.

entrance to the mall looks nice!

Whats your problem? He can mention it 1000 times if he wants to. :nuts:

I seriously doubt The Lord is concerned with the progress of modern construction sites. I doubt He would be willing or not willing whether this building is 600m or not. Wali did make a good point. If Dream does want to mention God, it doesn't bother me at all. At least he gives us good information on this project.

Does anybody know how if there will be an observatory and restaurant on this huge building? If so any guesses how high they will be?

Thanks guys. :)

This builing would look far more islamic with a digital clock at the top!

"Middle Eastern" or "Arabian" is probably a more apt descriptor.

Thank-you. That makes more sense to me.

Does anybody know how if there will be an observatory and restaurant on this huge building? If so any guesses how high they will be?

Someone had mentioned that there will be an observation deck, but I don't recall reading anything about a restaurant. Some people have mentioned that they have the ability to look at drawings - could one of those folks answer the questions, particularly with respect to exactly how high the observation deck will be?

This builing would look far more islamic with a digital clock at the top!

I hope that was sarcasm. Very funny.

I'm not so sure I like the clock on top. At least no one in the city can ask, "What time is it."

Where are the pics?

I seriously doubt The Lord is concerned with the progress of modern construction sites. I doubt He would be willing or not willing whether this building is 600m or not.
Does anybody know how if there will be an observatory and restaurant on this huge building? If so any guesses how high they will be?

In Islam, Allah has willing for anything does not matter small or big. Even the sins, Allah does not like them but he allows you to do it cause he created your mind to be free to do whatever you want.

Allah can wipe this building or any another one which means that if this building or any another one reached any height, This is by the will of Allah.

No one eats, works, grows, dies, lives, drinks, kills, sing or any action without the will of Allah but it does not mean that Allah likes what you are doing. You can do the sin but he will judge you (forgive or punish) but he does not stop you to give you the freedom of the choice not like angels.

Anyway I just wanted to highlight this point and I know it is not religious forum, so I will back to the project's discussion...

Yes, there are many resturants there:

1- Many Resturants in the shopping mall (35M - 45M)
2- Two Resturants at Level 11 & 12 Podium (85M - 95M).
3- Four Resturants at the top of the four towers inside the tents (220M - 230M).
4- Resturant at top of the Main tower (Above the click) (Almost 550M).

LOL Dream, although I understand what your trying to say ( I'm muslim myself) believe me what your trying to explain can't be done in a single post and we aren't allowed to talk religion on this forum and on top of that you wont be able to explain it to a non-Muslim in a few wordings. Don't worry carry on with your updates you are by far the life of this thread!! Keep up the great work.

^^ Thank you.

Update: An exhibition has been added at the top of the main tower.

Interesting Dream1981.

Any chance you could take pictures of the problems in design you talk about?

Colors:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7199/62214248fz4.jpg

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/464/29891202cp9.jpg

Waves:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9090/95507748hm5.jpg

Space between tublar ceiling:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3896/96506091ng2.jpg

EDIT @ 12:15 PM 19/11/07

The big waves at the top I was talking about:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9977/83497052bp8.jpg

The pulley I was talking about:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1631/28652504jm5.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7199/62214248fz4.jpg

haha I see what you mean!!
Ugly choice of colors and matching!!!!

We have a mall in Doha called Royal Plaza and it too has the most awful combinations of Colors in it. From the pictures you posted Dream1981, it seems this mall is something that is very good for Makkah standards (compared to Hilton mall shopping area, which the only place to shop downtown near the 7aram) BTW, thanks Dream for taking those photos.

Have you ever been to Trafford Centre mall in manchester?

It is awesome!!

Waves & Space between tublar ceiling:
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9090/95507748hm5.jpg http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3896/96506091ng2.jpg

While I don't like the distribution of the 'waves' in the first picture, in general I don't see any issue with this. Clearly, access and ventilation are important to that space. The waves look to be somewhat subtle elements meant to take the eye away from the openings (while keeping costs low). That section absolutely looks finished. Note that it is in contrast to the very traditional, almost Victorian looking, finish of the apartment that was shared earlier.

Digital clock would be more Islamic - from SunsShine

I hope that was sarcasm. Very funny.

There was a thread recently on how Russia Tower was/wasnot "Russian" looking, the jibe was that it has triangles, Russians invented the triangle :lol:

Arabs DID invent the 0, hence a digital clock _would_ be more Arabic, and by extension ( correct or not ) more Islamic.

There was a thread recently on how Russia Tower was/wasnot "Russian" looking, the jibe was that it has triangles, Russians invented the triangle :lol:

Arabs DID invent the 0, hence a digital clock _would_ be more Arabic, and by extension ( correct or not ) more Islamic.

Interesting story about the Russia Tower. For the record, while the word zero comes from Arabic, the Arabs did not invent the zero. That was something adopted from the Indian civilisations.

The Muslims (Arabs or otherwise) did two things, based on the guidance of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH):
1. Consolidate and cherish knowledge, irrespective of where it was from
2. Develop and add to knowledge

In the case of the zero, it was the first catetory. Linear and quadratic equasions fall into the latter.

Tangential, but I hope interesting. Amazing what came out of a seemingly silly comment about a digital clock! LOL!

I was just reading a story about Saudi Arabia's gender segregation laws, and I'm wondering how this would have effected the design of a project such as this one. How do they manage spaces such as the mall? How are elevators and stairs managed? Are there separate elevators?

The recent story that caught my eye and resulted in me making this post can be found here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm). I'm sharing this link only because people may not know where I'm coming from.

Clearly laws such as these will have direct and significant implications on design!

Clearly laws such as these will have direct and significant implications on design!

Actually, they will not have any effect on the design or the management of the building. No separate elevators! No separate malls!

Maybe separate public restrooms, can we do that? :lol:

How will such a massive building affect the crowds of the Haj ? Will the mall be open for all those "unwashed masses ?" - I bet it will be air conditioned and very attractive - but a little outside of what I would think of when making a religious pilgrimage, and many of the pilgrims are probably a little outside of what the affluent think of when going to the mall.

In the US the malls are privately owned and have security guards to keep out those that do not fit into the desired customer profile ( Teenagers, homeless, agitators ).

First of all, I do not know why the moderator deleted my post? Maybe cause I did not agree with Wali changing the topic and posting stupid links? I hope someone takes action anyway. Yes I was rude but at least he should be warned again or removed from this thread.

About Harry's post, Yes there are securities there to keep out those that do not fit into the desired customer profile but it is allowed for all pilgrimes for sure.

It is attractive for pilgrimes but they will not find it interesting to visit it many times since it is different than other malls. It has most of international brands and sure they are expensive enough to keep poor people and most of pilgrimes out of it.

Yes there are securities there to keep out those that do not fit into the desired customer profile but it is allowed for all pilgrimes for sure.

Just wanted to flush this out a bit more ...

I think what you have said is that the mall is not limited to people who are staying in the complex, rather it is open to anyone who meets a certain profile. Can you describe for us that 'desired customer profile'? Let's actually turn the question around and ask, which 'pilgrimes' will not be allowed? Is there something published, or is it something the security will have discretion over? What will be security's guidance?

One thing I hope the Saudi posters understand is, the concept of door guarding security at a mall is not a concept most people are used to. This is why the questions. Additionally, remember that this project has been framed as one to 'serve the pilgrims', a noble concept but not straight forward in implementation, particularly if a vast majority don't meet 'the profile'.

It has most of international brands and sure they are expensive enough to keep poor people and most of pilgrimes out of it.

I don't understand this concept. Again, it is foreign to me and likely many of the people reading this forum. Why would the cost of merchandise in a store keep people from entering an air conditioned mall, when it is 45 degrees Celsius outside? Also, this statement suggests that segregation will be strictly on assessed disposable income. Is that correct? How will a person who cannot afford Louis Vetton get inside to go to the observation deck (which as as been stated before, is open to the entire public)? How will disposable income assessments take place during Hajj when everyone shaves their heads and wears the same type of cloth? Lastly, what proportion of the visitors will this project actually cater to directly? I'm not talking accommodations, but the mall and other services also?

I don’t think there’s a need for any kind of profiling or restrictions except in the Hajj season. Open for the whole year and close it for 10 days hajj season. Some pilgrims from certain nationalities (during the Hajj season) cannot be tolerated. They come with the intention of sleeping on the streets and parks and the mosque’s squares. I am against granting them entry to the country from the beginning but that’s another issue. If you open the mall for that kind, they would literally sleep and even camp and cook inside the mall. I think a good solution would be to have a cover charge to enter the mall for non residents. It would help filtering out the "unwashed masses" or junk customers :lol:

Some pilgrims from certain nationalities (during the Hajj season) cannot be tolerated. They come with the intention of sleeping on the streets and parks and the mosque’s squares. I am against granting them entry to the country from the beginning ...

Wow!

^^ wow indeed :eek:

Some pilgrims from certain nationalities (during the Hajj season) cannot be tolerated. They come with the intention of sleeping on the streets and parks and the mosque’s squares. I am against granting them entry to the country from the beginning but that’s another issue.

is that a saudi version of a red neck!!

In all fairness, is it so difficult for people to argue in a civilised way?
He clearly said "that's another issue".

I sent a PM to a few people and it basically said this:

You can discuss anything you want as long as it relates to the project and is done so in a civilised way. Why are people incapable of this? If someone has an opposing opinion (and I couldn't give 2 shits what that opinion is), why can't you argue back in a respectful manner without namecalling and general shit like this.

Next time you feel like writing the word "troll" how about you read the opposing post, think about a good argument, back it up with evidence and prove them wrong. Either do this or write nothing at all.

Wow!


I bet you re suprised :banana:


really some people here are bashing saudies and arabs to proof that they are "global muslims"....

I really missed how this thread had nice updates rather than some stupied comments like realting a rape accedent to the design of the mall,

^^ I don't see how your comment has anything to do with this project thread.

In all fairness, is it so difficult for people to argue in a civilised way?
He clearly said "that's another issue".

Hey, all I said was "wow!". I hope you're not upset with my questions that led to Riyadhi's response.

Think about it, two million people, 45 degrees Celsius outside and you've got an air conditioned mall there. How do you work it? You can't exactly close it, as you've actually built it primarily for the people visiting for the Hajj (that is my understanding of the objectives). This is a legitimate line of discussion for a project.

I was absolutely surprised by how the answer was articulated. I did figure there might be some element in the reply that would be a source of debate, but this was somewhat over the top. Not just the 'that's another issue' statement, but the two sentences before that also (which were in response to the legit questions).

really some people here are bashing saudies and arabs to proof that they are "global muslims"....

I really missed how this thread had nice updates rather than some stupied comments like realting a rape accedent to the design of the mall,
LOL @ global muslims

Seriously, it was obvious that he meant to bash Saudi Arabia with such comment. Relating it with the project was a pathetic attempt to cover his intention.

@Walli, this is not the first mall to be built in Saudi Arabia, or even Makkah for that matter. Makkah, believe it or not, is more liberal in gender segregation in malls than Riyadh or other cities. Gender segregation is NOT a design issue to be taken into consideration in this case, except for public restrooms for obvious reasons. So no, these laws DO NOT have impacts on the design of this specific mall. There is another mall close-by, the Hilton Mall, and as you can clearly see from that example, there is no segregation. Please research before posting such comments.

Makkah, believe it or not, is more liberal in gender segregation in malls than Riyadh or other cities. Gender segregation is NOT a design issue to be taken into consideration in this case, except for public restrooms for obvious reasons.

Interesting - thank-you!

Surprising that the more 'holy' city would actually be more liberal with respect to gender segregation. A positive thing in my eyes!

Please research before posting such comments.

Don't know why you stated this at the end. I wasn't posting inaccurate statements, rather, I was asking legitimate questions. No need for such jabs. What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to me or others who do not live in the region.

Walli all your posts try to Mask your hate for the Saudi's, personally i think your full of b.s. Stop being fake.
We all know your agenda stop running around the bush.

Walli all your posts try to Mask your hate for the Saudi's, personally i think your full of b.s. Stop being fake.
We all know your agenda stop running around the bush.

How about you provide some proof before making these ridiculous claims. Does nobody read the stuff I post?

LOL @ global muslims

Seriously, it was obvious that he meant to bash Saudi Arabia with such comment. Relating it with the project was a pathetic attempt to cover his intention.
Maybe but where is the proof?

How about you provide some proof before making these ridiculous claims. Does nobody read the stuff I post?


Maybe but where is the proof?

What motivates him to click on the thread title?:lol:

Clearly he doesn't like the project? What drives him? And its not like he posts every now and then its quite persistent.

I know the common anti-Saudi arguments and agenda's out there and almost all of his posts have hinted at that. You may not be aware of it but there are a lot of muslims out there that just despise the Saudi's for the sect of Islam that they follow. Walli is one of them.

Mind you Malec a lot of his posts have been condescending, But most muslims that post on this thread know that Walli is religiously motivated when he just bashes the project. Lets not forget some of his older posts.

Update: The work on the tent of Al-Marwa tower has been started to be finished after 3 months inshallah (God willing).

The 4 tents should be completed next year inshallah (God willing), Which means that the work on other two tents will start after this Hajj since 1 is already completed and work already started on the 2nd one.

About allowing the millions of pilgrimes to go inside the mall, Actually there are people who never can be allowed there since they sleep and beg people to pay for them and about the number, Securities checks if there is space or not and if there is no space, they do not allow more people to go inside. This is well known at Hajj times.

^^ I know what you mean, and LIVED THROUGH IT :D when I went to the Hajj 2 years ago. People were cooking in the mall with small gas stoves. Seriously though, they should ban certain people from going in the mall. Not to mention the BEGGARS! OMG!

Okay, now we resolved the issue of segregation and beggars. Now what about hatred idiots? Don't you guys think that the design of the building should take that into account as a security matter? I mean shouldn't there be elevators for idiots that take them some sort of highly secured floors? We all know there are many of them out there and I don’t think a “no idiots” sign will be enough to keep them out because they are just idiots!

The security of such building is certainly a big issue and we would not want to leave it unmoderated. How do we keep out hatred idiots from Abraj Al-Bait?
What do you think DreaM? Do you think there's a way to control them?

^^ I believe that it is a difficult issue to keep them out specially cause there are many idiots nowadays who hate such projects and they go there to cause troubles with sick characters full of hate toward such project and sometimes such country.

Anyway for your information, There is VIP lobby which is secured with access cards and elevators never stop at any floor while there is someone inside it till he reachs the level he needs to secure the VIP person from being stopped at any floor.

No keys in this project, It has access cards only plus there are many CCTV cameras everywhere for security.

plzzzzzzzzzzz
ignore the idiots
:ohno:

Guys - I'm really trying to keep the discussion on the topic, IE this project. I'm not sure why people are having issues. I'm even triple reading my posts, to ensure I'm on topic. In response, I generally get three or four posts that have nothing to do with the thread, which themselves are full of accusations!

Now getting back to the project ...

I'm wondering if there were any other thoughts on the ceiling treatment DreaM1981 brought up? DreaM1981 wasn't too fond of the treatments, while I saw then as reasonable and efficient.

Refer to post #1261 (point #3) for DreaM1981's initial concerns:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16414305&postcount=1261

Refer to my post #1285 in response:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16489044&postcount=1285

Makkah, believe it or not, is more liberal in gender segregation in malls than Riyadh or other cities. Gender segregation is NOT a design issue to be taken into consideration in this case, except for public restrooms for obvious reasons.

I heard there was talk about the mutawas wanting to segregate worshippers inside the Haram. (men and women pray somewhat together there)

Now talk about stupid.

Your posts are often as relevant to topic as if someone posted in the Freedom Tower thread about how hired security killed innocent civilians in Iraq which is a War the USA is involved in because of a series of events which included the destruction of the Twin Towers which is the site the Freedom Tower is being built on...

_________________________________________________________________


Anyway, back on topic... Building techniques and acceptable presentation standards vary between the Middle East and some Western countries. I would like to hear from more people based both in Mecca and in the Middle East as to the design and finishings of this project. Im not seeking your opinion on the state of relations between the Saudis and the USA, nor is this an invitation to bash this project and the people/country building it!!

Im simply looking to gain some cultural understanding about this project and whether the decisions being made are based on.

I heard there was talk about the mutawas wanting to segregate worshippers inside the Haram. (men and women pray somewhat together there)

Now talk about stupid.

That was for protection of women. I totally agree with this opinion since women are suffering being squeezed by other men even if the men have no bad intention (which is not guaranted), still we need to protect the women and to keep one separate place for them to feel free to worship Allah instead of wasting the time to look around and be far from men as much she can to do not be touched.

One more thing, Men are suffering to protect their women there and they have to work behind them as close they can to protect them from any man.

Sure men do not go there for flirting but who cares if the one who touched his woman is a flirt or not or is it on purpose or not? we all do not want any one to touch our women in anyway.

The only disadvantage of this opinion is that woman has to leave her man to go to the upper floor and she can be lost but now there are mobiles and they can agree to meet at specified gate and so on.......

By the way I added other two pictures in one of my old posts about mistakes have been done in that shopping mall from my own point of view.

Refer to this link please http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16472435&postcount=1281

What an amazingly kitcsh brut! Such a disaster that it completely ruins the skyline of The Sacred Mosque, surely there was alot of UNESCO problems building it so close!?

^^ I do not understand perfectly what you mean but anyway as far I understood your question, They did not have any problems with UNESCO but Turkey refused the project cause of demolishing the old castle but finally they accepted it.

I do not know if there was any agreement to change their opinion but anyway it is a fact now and the castle is demolished and the new castle is being built lol

^^ I do not understand perfectly what you mean I do understand perfectly what Monkey9000 means, and I believe there are people who seem non-architecturally-motivated in closing their eyes about the patent absurdity of this project.

What an amazingly kitcsh brut! Such a disaster that it completely ruins the skyline of The Sacred Mosque, surely there was alot of UNESCO problems building it so close!?

UNESCO has no problems with it :)

UNESCO is not a body that imposes itself on countries. On the contrary, sites of heritage are to be presented to UNESCO by the country of jurisdiction. To make that application, the country itself has to put in place processes and procedures to protect, research and educate the public. IF a country chooses not to pursue, UNESCO will not do anything about it. This is the primary reason why most protected sites are in Europe, and not more evenly distributed globally. In this case, nothing in Mecca or Medina is listed with UNESCO's World Heritage List.

UNESCO has no problems with it :)

I don't think we can say that. While UNESCO may be frustrated with the on-goings, fact of the matter is, UNESCO has no jurisdiction.

UNESCO is not a body that imposes itself on countries. On the contrary, sites of heritage are to be presented to UNESCO by the country of jurisdiction. To make that application, the country itself has to put in place processes and procedures to protect, research and educate the public. IF a country chooses not to pursue, UNESCO will not do anything about it. This is the primary reason why most protected sites are in Europe, and not more evenly distributed globally. In this case, nothing in Mecca or Medina is listed with UNESCO's World Heritage List.



I don't think we can say that. While UNESCO may be frustrated with the on-goings, fact of the matter is, UNESCO has no jurisdiction.


UNESCO had problems with the Afghanistan Buddhas few years ago even though the Afghans chose not to persue. :)

How come they did not express any concern about the stupid castle? :nuts:

How come they did not express any concern about the stupid castle? :nuts:

The discussion was not about the castle. Please stay on topic.

^^ This is about the Kaaba, not the Buddha statues.

duh :weird:

This is useless.

When are you going to learn this thread is about the Abraj Al-Bait!?!?!?

I come to this thread to see updates and discuss the construction of this monumental project but people keep introducing their own agendas on both sides of the argument.

Everyone just quit it and stop posting in this thread unless your going to discuss the development of this tower. This is www.skyscrapercity.com, NOT a political/religious forum.

Malec, im going to ask you to lock this thread for a little while, this is nothing but a tit for tat.

This is <> NOT a political/religious forum

No one is debating politics or religion. The discussion has been about the project and its context.

I'm in agreement with Monkey9000's comment below.

MMM Dettol, I don't understand what your problem with this discussion is? I believe you have misunderstood.
I've asked a question about UNESCO listings as I feel this building is infringing on the Kaaba due to it's sheer brute size.
I've learned a very useful fact about the method of UNESCO listings, and now believe perhaps the government/planners of Mecca should have considered more carefully the placing of this tower, since UNESCO had no way of affectig it.
References to other places are always relevant in a debate or conversation Dettol, Riyadhi made a very valid comment about the example in Afganistan. I do not not have the answer to his point but it is curious that they should interfere with one project but not another?
It seems a bit harsh and dominating to order a perfectly interesting public thread down due to some debate. Considering the project in question's relationship with a very very important piece of world heritage?

References to other places are always relevant in a debate or conversation Dettol, Riyadhi made a very valid comment about the example in Afganistan. I do not not have the answer to his point but it is curious that they should interfere with one project but not another?


Thanks Monkey :)

**He finally got it :lol:**

Guys, there is no infringment on the Kaaba. Yes, the project is HUGE but then again times have changed and we are moving forward as technology progresses.

I remember my greatgrandmother used to tell me that she went to the Hajj on a Camel from Qatar, and it took weeks to reach there. Just imagine today with all the highway systems and airports, and exisiting buildings in Makkah, its a HUGE change from the way she visited in the early 1900's. Yet, The Kaaba didnt change in size or importance. Its still the same black cube that billions of people pray towards. So, times change and people become more and more, and things WE are not used to seeing ARE HAPPENING.

Yes, the project is huge, but look at the MILLIONS of people who come from all over the world to ask for salvation and forgiveness. The Holy Mosque is being expanded and people need a place to live. This calls for projects like these.

Yes the Kaaba is still as important as it ever was in terms of the use. However, thinking in architectural terms, it would be fantastic to be able to view it from the distance and its towers. To stand back and appriciate it and its importance. Abraj Al-Bait seems to be very insensitive to its location and in a way bullying the Kaaba due to its sheer size. I believe the Holy Mosque would be able to sustain itself without this sort of development. Anyway you do not go to the Kaaba for reasons of worldly pleasures but for spiritual growth. Is Mecca about Louis Vitton and Versace or is it about more beyond full human understanding? In English Mecca translates as uncapitalized, looking at this project it appears it has quite decisively been capitalized.

^^ :down:

^^ :down:

DreaM1981 - can you better articulate your opinion? Exactly what in Monkey9000, which was on the impact of the Abraj Al-Bait on its context, did you disagree with?

Monkey,

First of all you do seem like a genuinely concerned person; not some frustrated and hatred idiot. So, I'll be happy to reply to your post.

Yes the Kaaba is still as important as it ever was in terms of the use. However, thinking in architectural terms, it would be fantastic to be able to view it from the distance and its towers. To stand back and appriciate it and its importance.

Here are some facts that many people don't know,

-The Kaaba is the small black cube in the middle of the grand mosque.

-The current Kaaba building is relatively new and has no archeological importance.

- The grand mosque is surrounded by mountains and was never visible beyond few kilometers even before building anything.

- Before building Abraj Albait, the mosque was still not visible. It's only 3 floors high while it is surrounded by buildings with minimum of 10 floors. You can only see it when you are basically in front of it.



Abraj Al-Bait seems to be very insensitive to its location and in a way bullying the Kaaba due to its sheer size.

The developers see the opposite. I do too! We think that the way Abraj Albait is overlooking the grand mosque is a positive thing for the mosque.

And for your information, about 75% of the praying areas inside the grand mosque are covered so most prayers will not even be able to see the towers while praying. Also, 80% of the Hajj rituals are not done anywhere near the grand mosque.

Finally, there are two purposes behind building such a high skyscraper that overlooks the mosque:
1. The square footage of land near the grand mosque are the most expensive in the world. So by building more residential units, you utilize the value of the lot and therefore reduce the prices of the apartments for the pilgrims.

2. The idea of being able to look at the Kaaba from the apartments is of a ritual importance to many Muslims. They can even pray along with the Imam from there.


Anyway you do not go to the Kaaba for reasons of worldly pleasures but for spiritual growth. Is Mecca about Louis Vitton and Versace or is it about more beyond full human understanding? In English Mecca translates as uncapitalized, looking at this project it appears it has quite decisively been capitalized.

My answer to this will come straight from the Quran,

27. "And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage.* They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."

28. They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate GOD's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."

Quran: Hajj Sura, Verses 27,28
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura22.html


Your answer is in red :)

My answer to this will come straight from the Quran,
28. They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate GOD's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."

Your answer is in red :)

Riyadhi - following is the same verse as translated by the three most referred to translators of the Quran. What you have suggested is 'commercial benefits' is not in their translations

[Shakir 22:28] That they may witness advantages for them and mention the name of Allah during stated days over what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds, then eat of them and feed the distressed one, the needy.

[Yusufali 22:28] "That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice): then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.

[Pickthal 22:28] That they may witness things that are of benefit to them, and mention the name of Allah on appointed days over the beast of cattle that He hath bestowed upon them. Then eat thereof and feed therewith the poor unfortunate.

Now while it was important for me to provide a response to Riyadhi's quoting of the Quran to justify a commercialized Mecca, I'd suggest that we back off from this line of discussion. As has been mentioned before, this is not a forum for the discussion of religion and of politics. I very much appreciated Monkey9000's take, which was from an architectural, heritage and planning stand-point.

submission.org translation is based on Ibn Kathir interpretation of Quran which is one of the must reliable and trusted interpretations :) not my "suggested" interpretation!

Direct translation of the word "manafea" is "benifits" but the meaning behind it is "commercial benifits". And as an Arabic speaker, to me "benifts" clearly refers to the "commercial benefits"...




I suggest you learn some Arabic :)


And more -not selective- translated interpretations,
http://islamawakened.org/quran/22/28/default.htm

Thanks Riyadhi and Walli they were both very interesting and educational responses. I now feel I greater understand the site and location, as well as the social/religious background. I can now undertand the reason for the scale and somewhat agree with you...although the style of the architecture is not entirely to my taste. It was a pleasure having this discussion.

^^ Thank you... the pleasure is mine... and I'm glad you do understand the situation now:)
The architecture is a matter of taste and you are entitled to your taste ;)

^^ yep and relating architecture to religion is stupid.

translation is based on Ibn Kathir interpretation of Quran which is one of the must reliable and trusted interpretations

<>

Direct translation of the word "manafea" is "benifits" but the meaning behind it is "commercial benifits".

"most reliable and trusted" by who? Anyone who knows Arabic will tell you the Arabic does not say 'commercial'. No - the meaning behind it in context of the Hajj is "spiritual benefits". The word 'commercial' is an insertion.

Getting back to the project, I really am curious how the military will deal with all the people wanting to visit the mall when they are all dressed the same.

"most reliable and trusted" by who? Anyone who knows Arabic will tell you the Arabic does not say 'commercial'. No - the meaning behind it in context of the Hajj is "spiritual benefits". The word 'commercial' is an insertion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Kathir

"Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary on the Qur'an named Tafsir ibn Kathir which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, and is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today."

clearly you know nothing about Islam :lol:


Anyone who knows Arabic will tell you the Arabic does not say 'commercial'. No - the meaning behind it in context of the Hajj is "spiritual benefits". The word 'commercial' is an insertion.


And you dont know Arabic neither...
oh and I know Arabic and you dont :nuts:

This feels like having a discussion with a kid :ohno:



-----------------------------



And another translation,

That they may witness things that are of benefit to them (i.e. reward of Hajj in the Hereafter, and also some worldly gain from trade, etc.),

:)

The developers see the opposite. I do too! We think that the way Abraj Albait is overlooking the grand mosque is a positive thing for the mosque.

This is the entire point for me. This project honors the Kaaba; it does not attempt to steal the honor.

^^ Agree too.

This is the entire point for me. This project honors the Kaaba; it does not attempt to steal the honor.

absolutely :)

September 23,2007
photo by mohsin rashid pasha
Full Size (http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9081/2354680150089581255gneigi1.jpg)
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/77/2354680150089581255gneify5.jpg

I'm still trying to figure out where the Kaaba in this picture?

¡que es esa construccion un hotel acaso?

I'm still trying to figure out where the Kaaba in this picture?

^^You obviously have never been to Mecca :nuts:!!



In addiont to,
You don't know who Ibn Kahtir is!!
You know *little* about Islam!!
You know nothing about Arabic!!
You call the Grand Mosque "Kabaa" :lol:!!


Sorry, I find it it useless to debate with you :)

"most reliable and trusted" by who? Anyone who knows Arabic will tell you the Arabic does not say 'commercial'. No - the meaning behind it in context of the Hajj is "spiritual benefits". The word 'commercial' is an insertion.

Getting back to the project, I really am curious how the military will deal with all the people wanting to visit the mall when they are all dressed the same.

What are you arguing about? even our language?

I am arab and I know very well that manafa means benefits and it means the commercial benefits not the spirtual one and this is how we studied it everywhere in each school we joined for over than 18 years.

I wonder why are you arguing even about the lang. which is not yours!!!!

please talk about anything and disagree about anything but do not translate the quran as you want or my reply will be very rude, tough and strict.

First time in my life, I hear/read your translation about the spirtual benefits lol FIRST TIME!!!

It is well known that you can go for hajj/umrah and at same time you can go to shops and buy whatever you want and so on

It never was forbidden at all so please do not waste our time and keep the arabic for the arabs. If we have any question about english lang., we will not hesitate to ask you instead of claiming that we know its meaning.

I'm still trying to figure out where the Kaaba in this picture?

I agree with you... We need to demolish all mountains too around Makkah to be able to see the grand mosque from all angels. Mountains are steeling the honor of the kaaba too :lol:

Be logic, You can not even see the kaaba from that angel even if this project did not exist cause there was a mountain and above the mountain there was an old castle as far you know.

No one would be able to see the kaaba from that angel in anyway, that is why i suggested demolishing all mountains around the kaaba to let wali feels happy and see the view of grand mosque (aka kaaba from your point of view)lol.

Haha, you guys are hilarious, I love it!

I dont think even "Zarqaa Al Yamama" can see the Kaaba without Abraj Al-Bait LOOOOL :D

Guys, just ignore him....


Anyways, anybody knows the scheduled completion of the main tower?

^^ First quarter of 2009, The clock should be installed inshallah (God willing).

Installation of the clock is supposed to take almost 4-6 Months inshallah (God willing).

More 6 months for spire and the "helal" at the top as far I know

It is supposed to be finished at 2nd quarter of 2010 inshallah.

Hi everybody...I have to say i was doubtful about this project (you know, too close to an Holy place, even if not holy for my religion but for many other is...the design seemed too "80's in Miami", if you know what i mean) but, looking at the pictures you posted i'm thinking about it in a new way...it's better for real than in renderings!
i just have some little questions to pose you:
can you do a massive photographic tour of the place? i'm not a Muslim, so i won't be able to go and see with my own eyes
will be any form of eco-friendly measures like solar power or similar?
last, a thing i was thinking about last days, about those huge projects in Arab countries: how do the fire brigades work there? let me explain: Arabia isn't famous for water, isn't it?so, how do you manage to ensure a fire protection in such enormous buildings?
thanks!!!

The buildings of this complex have a good design and are not offensive in my opinion it's just the big tower is really hideous and should be changed before it's too late.

Hi everybody...I have to say i was doubtful about this project (you know, too close to an Holy place, even if not holy for my religion but for many other is...the design seemed too "80's in Miami", if you know what i mean) but, looking at the pictures you posted i'm thinking about it in a new way...it's better for real than in renderings!
i just have some little questions to pose you:
can you do a massive photographic tour of the place? i'm not a Muslim, so i won't be able to go and see with my own eyes
will be any form of eco-friendly measures like solar power or similar?
last, a thing i was thinking about last days, about those huge projects in Arab countries: how do the fire brigades work there? let me explain: Arabia isn't famous for water, isn't it?so, how do you manage to ensure a fire protection in such enormous buildings?
thanks!!!

Hi there,

1. You cant personally tour the area of course, but the complex is right in front of the Holy Mosque, and you can search the Holy Mosque and see it by yourself.

2. Even though there isnt as much water as the west, there is still water, and of course all these towers have fire protecton in them. Makkah also has a fire department and it takes fire very seriously.

1. You can personally tour the area of course, but the complex is right in front of the Holy Mosque, and you can search the Holy Mosque and see it by yourself.


you see, I've been told non - Muslims can't come and see...so you have no chance, you must go and report for us here!:lol::lol:
anyway, which would be the materials used to cover the facade, apart from glass of course?

you see, I've been told non - Muslims can't come and see...so you have no chance, you must go and report for us here!:lol::lol:
anyway, which would be the materials used to cover the facade, apart from glass of course?

I know, I specifically said SEARCH (ie. Google, Yahoo, website, ect...) if you want to see pictures. I dont live in Makkah so Im afraid I cant report it for you. :(

Materials are cement, concrete, maybe marble?

^^^^^^ok thanks...but you know, a first hand report made by a forumer is better IMHO!
anyway, who's the archtect behind all this stuff?maybe somebody wrote it before, but i'm too lazy to search right now!

^^ Dar Al Handasah Architects

2. Even though there isnt as much water as the west, there is still water, and of course all these towers have fire protecton in them. Makkah also has a fire department and it takes fire very seriously.

I remember a few years ago a huge fire killed hundreds of people camped in Mecca. It was a big scandal across the Islamic world. I think the fire regulations must have been tightened after that.

Hi there,

1. You can personally tour the area of course, but the complex is right in front of the Holy Mosque, and you can search the Holy Mosque and see it by yourself.


Since when non-Muslims are allowed to enter Makkah? :hm:

I remember a few years ago a huge fire killed hundreds of people camped in Mecca. It was a big scandal across the Islamic world. I think the fire regulations must have been tightened after that.

Of course. They regulations were tightened a lot!

Any new update??? I think it is one of the slowest supertalls under construction.

I remember a few years ago a huge fire killed hundreds of people camped in Mecca. It was a big scandal across the Islamic world. I think the fire regulations must have been tightened after that.

Of course. They regulations were tightened a lot!

While regulations may have been tightened, they don't always result in an improved fire response system. The metrics are unfortunately not always centred around lives saved. While the issues include lack of appropriate response, there is sometimes also the purposeful delay in response (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm) (a hard one to swallow)!

With respect to this project, beyond fire response, I would also add implications on logistics around the Kaaba, given the addition of this large complex. There has already been a history of stampedes causing death (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4606002.stm), and I'm wondering if this has been helped or hindered here?

Hajj disasters:

1987: 400 die as Saudi authorities confront pro-Iranian demonstration
1990: 1,426 pilgrims killed in tunnel leading to holy sites
1994: 270 killed in stampede + hundreds injured
1997: 343 pilgrims die and 1,500 injured in fire
1998: At least 118 trampled to death + hundreds indured
2001: 35 die in stampede
2003: 14 are crushed to death
2004: 251 trampled to death in stampede + hundreds injured
2006: 345 trampled to death in stampede + hundreds injured

Now this list above tells me that logistics and unimpeded movement of people is a huge issue - and certainly there has not been a real improvement from the numbers that keep dying! Hope people understand the connection of this information and issue to this large project.

to save one life is as if to save all of humanity.

This has to be the ugliest set of buildings I've ever seen. The main tower looking like a larger version of Big Ben.
Reminds me of the Death-star.

With respect to this project, beyond fire response, I would also add implications on logistics around the Kaaba, given the addition of this large complex. There has already been a history of stampedes causing death (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4606002.stm), and I'm wondering if this has been helped or hindered here?

Hajj disasters:

1987: 400 die as Saudi authorities confront pro-Iranian demonstration
1990: 1,426 pilgrims killed in tunnel leading to holy sites
1994: 270 killed in stampede + hundreds injured
1997: 343 pilgrims die and 1,500 injured in fire
1998: At least 118 trampled to death + hundreds indured
2001: 35 die in stampede
2003: 14 are crushed to death
2004: 251 trampled to death in stampede + hundreds injured
2006: 345 trampled to death in stampede + hundreds injured

Now this list above tells me that logistics and unimpeded movement of people is a huge issue - and certainly there has not been a real improvement from the numbers that keep dying! Hope people understand the connection of this information and issue to this large project.



If you know just a little about Mecca, you will realize that all of the above incidents happened in Muzdalifa and Mina and Maaisim tunnel, no where near the grand mosque. Do you even know what's Muzdalifa and Mina :lol:?? The grand mosque area has always been safe which means the project will not really cause any stampede accidents :). The access from the mosque to the project is wide and open. In addition, the rituals of Tawaf and Saiy have open timing unlike Jamarat. Jamarat is a small area and the ritual has to be done in a short and restricted time frame which have resulted in stampedes.

Smart muslims know that the area around the grad mosque is stampede-free...
Only an idiot will say that the project will cause any stampede :)


And by the way, the fires didn't happen anymore because all the tents of Mina were replaced with anti fire tents :) And now are being replaced by highrise buildings.. The Stampede issue at Muzdalifa is being resovled by $1.2 billion Jamarat bridge project (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=307843). The first phase was completed and tested last year resulting in a safe Jamarat ritual.
Mecca is in safe hands ;)






PS: it's always smart to ask questions and it is very stupid to make ignorant assumptions ;)

This has to be the ugliest set of buildings I've ever seen. The main tower looking like a larger version of Big Ben.
Reminds me of the Death-star.

You are not alone.

If you know just a little about Mecca, you will realize that all of the above incidents happened in Muzdalifa and Mina and Maaisim tunnel, no where near the grand mosque.

I'm well aware of where the incidents took place. They took place in areas where there were bottlenecks, be they caused by a bridge or a tunnel or what have you. The lesson in those is not to create additional bottlenecks within the areas the pilgrims will be visiting and moving around in. The relevance to this thread is thus straightforward.

BTW - the fires previously mentioned by someone else were also not in the Kaaba itself, but the questions and discussion were still relevant. Quran 5-32: to save one life is as if to save all of humanity. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm)

PS: it's always smart to ask questions and it is very stupid to make ignorant assumptions ;)

There is no reason for such comments. The moderator should take note.

this thread is so frustrating because of walli

I guess its time to unsubscribe :ohno:

let me explain: Arabia isn't famous for water, isn't it?so, how do you manage to ensure a fire protection in such enormous buildings?
thanks!!!

Actually there are tanks which are filled by water and the fire fighting system is already energized and filled. It works only in case of fire and sure when the fire occures, The pumps will start to discharge the water from very very very huge tanks at basement 3.

^^ Dar Al Handasah Architects

Actually the Arch. designer is Richmond (http://www.richint.com/)

I'm well aware of where the incidents took place. They took place in areas where there were bottlenecks, be they caused by a bridge or a tunnel or what have you. The lesson in those is not to create additional bottlenecks within the areas the pilgrims will be visiting and moving around in. The relevance to this thread is thus straightforward.

The new Jamarat bridge (Phase 1) has been built and now Phase two has been completed and will be ready for Hajj 2007 inshallah (God willing).

One more thing, Over than 5 millions going to the same place at same time, What are you expecting? Accidents may happen but sure the gov. is doing its best to reduce them but any logic human imagines the situation specially cause there are old people and kids going among these 5 millions.

Be logic please and do not accuse because of hate feelings.

Over than 5 millions going to the same place at same time, What are you expecting? Accidents may happen but sure the gov. is doing its best to reduce them but any logic human imagines the situation specially cause there are old people and kids going among these 5 millions.

You've misunderstood. Certainly errors and accidents happen - no one is perfect on this earth. I was just pointing out that bottlenecks increase the likelihood of accidents, and learning form past situations relating to the Kaaba pilgrimage is important. While one area is improved, if we don't understand the underlying causes, the same could be caused elsewhere.

If this project has thought about this, alhamdulillah. If it hasn't, and instead is going to be a large impervious structure, the next lesson could be more deadly!

this thread is so frustrating because of walli

I guess its time to unsubscribe :ohno:Quite frankly, I don't understand why in this, and other threads as well, moderators allow ad-personam attacks and insults (I have other examples ready if anybody's interested). Walli's critiques may be well-founded or not, but they are legitimate nevertheless, and it doesn't seem to me that he's being impolite or is violating any forum's rule, whereas his self-elected adversaries - who seem to be prodded to post in a compulsory way every time he speaks about this building - are beyond impolite and have a really arrogant attitude.
Really sometimes I wonder what moderators are for, if not to make people abide by the rules. Are they too busy? Well let's elect more of them. Sorry for the OT, I hope the mods will cancel my post AND take action in other ways too.

this thread is so frustrating because of walli



I agree with you.
Let`s change the name of the thread to: Walli complaints about Mecca

I am a skyscraper fan. This building would be 87m taller tha the current tallest building in world so i am interested. But all i see is Walli complaining. Does he ever contribute anything useful to this thread?

I'm well aware of where the incidents took place. They took place in areas where there were bottlenecks, be they caused by a bridge or a tunnel or what have you. The lesson in those is not to create additional bottlenecks within the areas the pilgrims will be visiting and moving around in. The relevance to this thread is thus straightforward.


If you know little about the project and Mecca you will realize that it's far from creating any "bottlenecks"! The square in front of the building is HUGE and there are 3 huge mosque gates in front of it. In addition the complex itself has multiple large gates.

And if you know little about the previous stampede, you'll realized that they happened at times when hundreds of thousands were at the same spot, at the same time. If you know little about the Grand Mosque area and condition, you will realize that this has 0.0000000000% of happening :)

But obviously, you know nothing ;)

this thread is so frustrating because of walli

I guess its time to unsubscribe :ohno:

I agree with you.
Let`s change the name of the thread to: Walli complaints about Mecca

I am a skyscraper fan. This building would be 87m taller tha the current tallest building in world so i am interested. But all i see is Walli complaining. Does he ever contribute anything useful to this thread?

Totally agree... I think its about time someone got banned from this thread.

...snip... If you know little about the Grand Mosque area and condition, you will realize that this has 0.0000000000% of happening :)

But obviously, you know nothing ;)

Thank you for clearing that up for those of us who know nothing of Mecca.

Does anyone have any street level shots of this project ?
Any photo threads on the mass of old ( soon to be gone ? ) buildings nearby ?

^^You are welcome harryc...

It's okay when you don't know anything about Mecca... But it's a shame when you don't know anything and still give your opinion as if you know it all ;)


Here are some street level pictures of the square in front of the project,

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/1803337491_1dfd74f2db.jpg?v=0
by Shehana

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/415621586_48ef0dce37.jpg?v=0
by Mr Saudi

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/1803337491_1dfd74f2db.jpg?v=0
by Shehana

Do you have any pictures of the space between the Kaaba perimeter wall and the project? These pictures are not actually directly in front of the project, rather, they are of the space over to one side of the project.

In this particular picture, you can see that the large-scale project further ahead angling to the left along with the Kaaba perimeter wall. The space between the two becomes a real squeeze! The street level in that area, particularly because that is the street level of this project we're discussing, is of interest.

Totally agree... I think its about time someone got banned from this thread.

I actually think he's done a pretty good job of toning down the rhetoric. At least he's not going on about the "Saudi regime" and the destruction of the Ottoman castle anymore. :cheers:

Do you have any pictures of the space between the Kaaba perimeter wall and the project? These pictures are not actually directly in front of the project, rather, they are of the space over to one side of the project.


What's the "Kaaba perimeter wall"????
:lol::lol:

Do you have any pictures of the space between the Kaaba perimeter wall and the project? These pictures are not actually directly in front of the project, rather, they are of the space over to one side of the project.

It is not small at all as you think. It is big enough.... Seems you never been in Makkah :nuts:

Deleted (double post) - Sorry

What's the "Kaaba perimeter wall"????
:lol::lol:

Sorry for confusing you. I often forget that English is a second language for most Saudis.

It is not small at all as you think. It is big enough.... Seems you never been in Makkah :nuts:

I have not been there since this development got above the ground, but neither have most on this thread. I'm not sure what is meant by 'it is big enough', particularly since the pictures that are being shared have not shown this area.

Your continued harassment with comments such as 'Seems you [have] never been in Makkah' is not required.

Sorry for confusing you. I often forget that English is a second language for most Saudis.


hahaha

Walli... focus....
you are not confusing me... you are making me laugh :lol:.. Seriouslly!!
There's no such thing called the "Kaaba perimeter wall" in any language on Earth!!


and by the way, English is the second language for ALL Saudis!!

hahaha

Walli... focus....
you are not confusing me... you are making me laugh :lol:.. Seriouslly!!
There's no such thing called the "Kaaba perimeter wall" in any language on Earth!!


and by the way, English is the second language for ALL Saudis!!

I think he means the exterior wall of the Grand Mosque.

I think he means the exterior wall of the Grand Mosque.

He means the interior part of the exterior wall :lol:

The part of the Grand Mosque that lacks a roof.

I'm surprised so few people understand the descriptor 'perimeter' particularly when that post included a picture. It is very common language - like saying the perimeter wall of a fort. There might be other walls inside a fort, but the perimeter wall refers to the one furthest out, which encircles. It is irrespective of other names of such walls. Like I said, sorry for confusing a few of you.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perimeter

It is amazing how many irrelevant posts you guys have put up without talking about the actual project. Perhaps someone can actually respond to the request of a picture of the street level immediately outside this project? Are none of you in Makkah?

Yah, Walli we are all wrong and your right.

The Kaaba Perimeter Wall has eluded all of us except you! :lol:

why don't you show us what u mean by highlighting the area in a picture? instead of condescendingly posting a dictionary link

Yah, Walli we are all wrong and your right.

The Kaaba Perimeter Wall has eluded all of us except you! :lol:

why don't you show us what u mean by highlighting the area in a picture? instead of condescendingly posting a dictionary link

:rofl:

Good idea..
Walli highlight this wall thing you are talking about...

The Kaaba Perimeter Wall :weird:



Anyways, here are nice pictures from one of Abraj Albait towers,
http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/2.jpg

http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/6.jpg

http://m7mad.net/wp/?p=13#more-13

Nice diagram,

http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=34622

While regulations may have been tightened, they don't always result in an improved fire response system. The metrics are unfortunately not always centred around lives saved. While the issues include lack of appropriate response, there is sometimes also the purposeful delay in response (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm) (a hard one to swallow)!

With respect to this project, beyond fire response, I would also add implications on logistics around the Kaaba, given the addition of this large complex. There has already been a history of stampedes causing death (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4606002.stm), and I'm wondering if this has been helped or hindered here?

Hajj disasters:

1987: 400 die as Saudi authorities confront pro-Iranian demonstration
1990: 1,426 pilgrims killed in tunnel leading to holy sites
1994: 270 killed in stampede + hundreds injured
1997: 343 pilgrims die and 1,500 injured in fire
1998: At least 118 trampled to death + hundreds indured
2001: 35 die in stampede
2003: 14 are crushed to death
2004: 251 trampled to death in stampede + hundreds injured
2006: 345 trampled to death in stampede + hundreds injured

Now this list above tells me that logistics and unimpeded movement of people is a huge issue - and certainly there has not been a real improvement from the numbers that keep dying! Hope people understand the connection of this information and issue to this large project.


If I visit Mecca during Hajj, I'll probably watch the festivities from the comfort of my hotel room. :)

Do you have any pictures of the space between the Kaaba perimeter wall and the project? These pictures are not actually directly in front of the project, rather, they are of the space over to one side of the project.

In this particular picture, you can see that the large-scale project further ahead angling to the left along with the Kaaba perimeter wall. The space between the two becomes a real squeeze! The street level in that area, particularly because that is the street level of this project we're discussing, is of interest.

Don`t you mean the grand mosque perimeter wall? As far as i know the Kabaa is inside the Grand Mosque

http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/6.jpg


That's a great picture, as it gives a good idea of how many people can be in and around the Kaaba complex at any one time. Someone had mentioned how the numbers keep trending up - wonder how it will work when there are twice as many people?

The area I was talking about is in the bottom right of this picture, IE where the space between the Abraj al Bait development and the perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex (IE the grand mosque) is the smallest. It seems to be the bottleneck.

yeah, very good architecture and really fit with its environment. Go Abraj Al-Bait!

the perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex (IE the grand mosque) is the smallest. It seems to be the bottleneck.

The Kabaa is this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Kaaba1.jpg/740px-Kaaba1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaa

And the Mosque surrounding the Kabaa is the Masjid al-Haram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al_Haram

You don`t even admit it when you say something wrong.
Everyboddy laught at you because you said the perimeter wall of the Kabaa. Everyboddy knows what the Kabaa is and nobody knows what the Kabaa complex is.

I don't think at all that area your suggesting would be in danger of a stampede. The Stoning of the Devil area has traditionally been one of the more dangerous places as there have been casualties there but around the Haram itself its all an open area I can't imagine any stampede taking place there.

You should know this if you've already been there.

Guys come on where is the Islamic attitude (those of you who are Muslim!)? There's so much petty bickering and sniping in this thread. We should be kind to one another, forgive each others' mistakes and make an extra special effort to get on with one another.

And all this in a thread about Makkah!

yeah, very good architecture and really fit with its environment.:hilarious

That's a great picture, as it gives a good idea of how many people can be in and around the Kaaba complex at any one time. Someone had mentioned how the numbers keep trending up - wonder how it will work when there are twice as many people?


Walli Walli Walli what are you talking about!!!
This picture was taken on one of the last 7 nights of Ramadan, the nights where the Grand Mosque gets more crowded than any ANY TIME!! Any Muslim with little awarness with the situation in Mecca would realize that from a quick look at the carpets on the roof. Even in the Hajj it does not get as crowded as in the 26th night of Ramadan because of the flexiblity of Tawaf and Saiy times. They can be done at any time of the day for several days. In Ramadan, Muslims gather at the Taraweeh and Qiyam prayers for only 3 to 5 hours at certain nights.

I was actually there that night three years ago (in Ramadan) and I was in the area in front of Abraj Albait. The project was taking more space because of the fence around it. Yet, there was a HUGE space and I was able to walk around freely.



As for the numbers are going up, also the expansion of the Mosque is going on and developments like Abraj Albait are needed :)



The area I was talking about is in the bottom right of this picture, IE where the space between the Abraj al Bait development and the perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex (IE the grand mosque) is the smallest. It seems to be the bottleneck.

Kaaba complex
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

By the way what do you call Minarets? The Kabba Complex Pillars :D?


Anyways, you are still basing your opinion on FALSE information. The area between the Grand Mosque and the project is NOT the smallest and calling it a bottleneck based on that picture is stupid in my in my opinion :). You can not even see the whole area since big part of is covered by the podium. Go to google earth and zoom in to see the area for yourself. Besides, we all know what a bottleneck looks like. And any smart person who has been to Mecca would tell you that it is funny to think that there is a possiblility of a stampede anywhere around the Grand Mosque (IE Kaaba Complex :lol:)..

Your argument reminds me of the argument that higher floors at Burj Dubai should be pressurized because of the lack of oxygen at high elevation!! Both arguments are unrealistic in a funny way ;)

I dont like the wahhabists :P. But i guess this developement is needed.

I think they need too seriously and thouroghly redesign the infrastructure around the mosque to be able to satisfy future needs and relieve how crowded it can become, as well as redeveloping current bottlenecks. Whilst also providing an availability to preserve historical monuments where possible.

A task for top engineers and planners :).

I dont like the wahhabists :P. But i guess this developement is needed.



Why don't you educate yourself a bit about them and know that they are called SALAFI's.

LOL Almost every person these days is an expert in Islamic sects it seems :lol:

Why don't you educate yourself a bit about them and know that they are called SALAFI's.

LOL Almost every person these days is an expert in Islamic sects it seems :lol:

No actually i have only a vague idea, im not religious :lol:

:rofl:

Anyways, here are nice pictures from one of Abraj Albait towers,
http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/2.jpg

http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/6.jpg

http://m7mad.net/wp/?p=13#more-13

Will this be the view from the new building - stunning.

Thx for the pics.

Every time I look at at the pictures of the Kaaba from the Abraj Al-bait towers, I think about security.

How easy would it be for anyone to use an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) to destroy the Kaaba, or use a high-powered rifle to start a stampede, or use a high-fequency laser to light the Kaaba on fire?

There are 6 billion people on this planet including over 1.5 billion Muslims. Do you think just one of them is crazy enough to light the world on fire by attacking the Mosque from the Abraj Al-Bait?

Will there be the equivalent of "airport security" at this building?

Every time I look at at the pictures of the Kaaba from the Abraj Al-bait towers, I think about security.

How easy would it be for anyone to use an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) to destroy the Kaaba, or use a high-powered rifle to start a stampede, or use a high-fequency laser to light the Kaaba on fire?

There are 6 billion people on this planet including over 1.5 billion Muslims. Do you think just one of them is crazy enough to light the world on fire by attacking the Mosque from the Abraj Al-Bait?

Will there be the equivalent of "airport security" at this building?

What the heck? :ohno:

The area I was talking about is in the bottom right of this picture, IE where the space between the Abraj al Bait development and the perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex (IE the grand mosque) is the smallest. It seems to be the bottleneck.

Maybe you are confused between Al safa Palace and Abraj Al-Bait? :nuts: The bottleneck you see in the picture is the space between Al-Safa Palace and The Grand mosque.

Kaaba complex
By the way what do you call Minarets? The Kabba Complex Pillars :D?

^^ :lol:

Every time I look at at the pictures of the Kaaba from the Abraj Al-bait towers, I think about security.

How easy would it be for anyone to use an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) to destroy the Kaaba, or use a high-powered rifle to start a stampede, or use a high-fequency laser to light the Kaaba on fire?

There are 6 billion people on this planet including over 1.5 billion Muslims. Do you think just one of them is crazy enough to light the world on fire by attacking the Mosque from the Abraj Al-Bait?

Will there be the equivalent of "airport security" at this building?

You need to get in touch with reality. Turn off the neocon channels on your television and read some books :lol:.

^^ :lol:

or use a high-fequency laser to light the Kaaba on fire
loooooooooool
this is the coolest replay on this thread, I lmao
dude you watch movies allot !!!
but I liked the idea, its remind me with Batman's movies :lol:

http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/2.jpg



can i just ask why that space behing the Great mosque is empty?moreover,it seems the area can get really crowdy, how are the authorities gonna deal with it?mecca during the hajj must be a really crowdy place...
by the way, i'm really interested in this thing, can you just advice me a website about mecca, so i can see the town without converting?thanks!

the perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex (IE the grand mosque) is the smallest. It seems to be the bottleneck.

The Kabaa is this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Kaaba1.jpg/740px-Kaaba1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaa

Yes - that is why I stated the 'perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex'. I'm trying to use descriptive terms for the benefit of ALL readers of this form. I'm absolutely certain all of you knew exactly what I was talking about, particularly given that I also said, the space immediately in front of the Abraj al Bait.

:ohno:

Anyway - given some interest in the history of the built structures, this is a great summary of the Kaaba itself:

http://www.archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=8801

It has been worked on numerous times, and had been changed as a result. As an example, there was major damage in the 7th century as a result of Arab in-fighting between Ibn Zubayr, ruler of Mecca, and Umayyad Caliph Mu'awiyah. Umayyad Caliph Abdul Malik demolished the Kaba at one point and built it with a different design. The current structure of the Kaaba is from 16th century Ottoman construction, based on Abraham's original plan.

He means the interior part of the exterior wall :lol:

The part of the Grand Mosque that lacks a roof.

He was asking about the space between the perimeter wall (the exterior wall) and the project (Abraj al-Bait).

It could have been said better, but I don't think he's asking how much roofless space there is in the Grand Mosque. He could probably Google that fairly easily.

Guys come on where is the Islamic attitude (those of you who are Muslim!)? There's so much petty bickering and sniping in this thread. We should be kind to one another, forgive each others' mistakes and make an extra special effort to get on with one another.

And all this in a thread about Makkah!

Yeah, a little bit of common decency would go a long way in this thread.

Ugh. Inside and out, this building is as tasteless as overboiled cabbage.

Hahahahaha!!! :lol:

Its the most boring, dull looking building iv ever seen in my entire life!!!
Its almost depressing to look at the renders im so glad its being built in the east and no where near my house!!!! Reminds me of a rainy monday morning :bash::bash::bash::bash:

Its the most boring, dull looking building iv ever seen in my entire life!!!
Its almost depressing to look at the renders im so glad its being built in the east and no where near my house!!!! Reminds me of a rainy monday morning :bash::bash::bash::bash:

It does have a white roof that i think might lighten it up. But i agree, it wouldnt fit at all in britain.

It still seems quite thought through with the garage and so forth.

Kaaba is really beautiful at night!

I looked at satellite photos of Haram Mosque at maps.google.com and the mosque shines during daylight like the brightest star in the universe! TRULY MAGNIFICENT!!!!!!!

btw, abraj al bait looks okay, not great, not bad, just okay. it would be better if they use white marble and white colour scheme for the building.

Yes - that is why I stated the 'perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex'. I'm trying to use descriptive terms for the benefit of ALL readers of this form. I'm absolutely certain all of you knew exactly what I was talking about, particularly given that I also said, the space immediately in front of the Abraj al Bait.

:ohno:

Anyway - given some interest in the history of the built structures, this is a great summary of the Kaaba itself:

http://www.archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=8801

It has been worked on numerous times, and had been changed as a result. As an example, there was major damage in the 7th century as a result of Arab in-fighting between Ibn Zubayr, ruler of Mecca, and Umayyad Caliph Mu'awiyah. Umayyad Caliph Abdul Malik demolished the Kaba at one point and built it with a different design. The current structure of the Kaaba is from 16th century Ottoman construction, based on Abraham's original plan.



Walli, thanks for the history lesson but there no such object called "outer perimeter of Kaaba." There is the Kaaba itself, which is located in the grand mosque. The grandmosque itself is a like a structure surrounding the courtyard of the Kaaba.

We dont know what you mean exactly by that. Everything has a name and "outer perimeter of the Kaaba" is not specific enough to name a structure.

First, I thought you were talking about the "Hjr Ismael" (Please correct me if Im wrong), which is a semi-circlar small short wall in one side of the Kaaba.

Then, you could mean the first Ottoman's orange-mosque surrounding the Kaaba.

or maybe you mean the whole Grand Mosque structure by itself.

Forth, you could mean the surrounding lands outside of the structure of the Grand Mosque?

So, you werent being specific enough..

BTW, English and Arabic are both my first language. ;)

can i just ask why that space behing the Great mosque is empty?moreover,it seems the area can get really crowdy, how are the authorities gonna deal with it?mecca during the hajj must be a really crowdy place...
by the way, i'm really interested in this thing, can you just advice me a website about mecca, so i can see the town without converting?thanks!


1- The space is needed cause millions are walking together at same time to the holy mosque which means that there should be a big space outside before the main gates plus people pray also at this space when there is no any space inside the mosque.

2- Authorities are dealing with it by many new extension projects, some already started and other will start soon inshallah (God Willing) plus there is a rumor but not confirmed yet that one more floor will be added to the holy mosque Inshallah (God willing).

3- Check google earth. It is the best choice + Google maps.


it would be better if they use white marble and white colour scheme for the building.

Actually, If its color was white/gray like the holy mosque, It would look as if it is a part of the holy mosque its self and this is not accepted at all.

It supports the holy mosque financially as an endowment. Any income goes to the holy mosque after 25 years inshallah (God willing).

It is not an extention of the holy mosque its self... that is why white marble can not be used.

so, how long will they stop the constuction? it's the hajj season right?

my parents are at mecca right now to do their hajj. I've heard that the temperature of mecca is lower than the past years.

These two pictures are specially for wali to let him see some facts of this project:

The red aquare in the following picture is the temporary partition which will be removed after one week inshallah (god willing) which means that the space between the project and the holy mosque will be increased. That parition was temporary to protect the pilgrimes while that area was under construction but after the completion of that side of the project, The cleaning work started then the granite work will start to be a part of the land of the holy mosque.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2906/dsc00009kh5.jpg

The next picture shows the area which will be added and there is one more area will be added soon inshallah (god willing) after demolishing small ugly building infront of the project which is at the right side in the following picture (not shown).

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9175/dsc00010vr2.jpg

so, how long will they stop the constuction? it's the hajj season right?

my parents are at mecca right now to do their hajj. I've heard that the temperature of mecca is lower than the past years.

Work will be stopped 14 days exactly inshallah (god willing).

Temprature of mecca this year is really lower than past year. That is true :okay:

guys I have an idea to free you all from headache
click on the name of any user that you think he is wasting your time
then the browser gonna take you to the user file of this guy, you'll find a frame contains his name and picture
on the bottom of this frame will find to options
if you click on "Add someone to Your Ignore List", you,ll never again see this guy's posts
:)

:rofl:

Good idea..
Walli highlight this wall thing you are talking about...

The Kaaba Perimeter Wall :weird:



Anyways, here are nice pictures from one of Abraj Albait towers,
http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/2.jpg

http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/6.jpg

http://m7mad.net/wp/?p=13#more-13

these are from one of the completed towers?? wow! what a view. from what height is this picture taken from? how tall are the buildings completed so far?

You need to get in touch with reality. Turn off the neocon channels on your television and read some books :lol:.

I'm not a neocon. If I were, I might have said something more disturbing like:

Wouldn't it be aweful if someone scattered anthrax or small pox from the Al-Bait towers just as 2 million Muslims were finishing their hajj and going home? [16 Oct 2001: anthrax mailed to US Congress]

Or,

It would be terrible if someone took the radiological waste from just about any hospital in the world, attached it to a grenade and shot it into the Mosque using a simple hunter's crossbow. The Mosque would have to be destroyed in order to decontaminate the site. [Today, 29 Nov 2007:Three men arrested in Slovakia for allegedly trying to sell enough enriched uranium for a "dirty bomb"]

Note that my examples are now supported by reality. The only joke here is how easy this becomes with seven +240m towers next to the Mosque.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Every time I look at at the pictures of the Kaaba from the Abraj Al-bait towers, I think about security.

How easy would it be for anyone to use an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) to destroy the Kaaba, or use a high-powered rifle to start a stampede, or use a high-fequency laser to light the Kaaba on fire?

While your concerns may sound out of this world for some, the concerns are legitimate. Arab in-fighting resulted in a fire that ruined the Kaaba in the 7th century. The fire actually caused the black stone of the Kaaba (the Hajre Aswad) to crack into pieces!

these are from one of the completed towers?? wow! what a view. from what height is this picture taken from? how tall are the buildings completed so far?

The centre tower would b a height more than twice where that picture it taken from. It would be looking virtually straight down to the Kaaba.

Yes - it is a spectacular view.

...snip...

The centre tower would b a height more than twice where that picture it taken from. It would be looking virtually straight down to the Kaaba.

Yes - it is a spectacular view.

Are there any considerations being taken to provide a view down ? If I see this correctly the wings or small towers won't block the view from the main tower, but looking down there is an angle beyond which the glass and facade get in the way. I'd imagine windows that slant out slightly would provide this.

Here are some street level pictures of the square in front of the project,

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/1803337491_1dfd74f2db.jpg?v=0
by Shehana
Looks like a rendering.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/415621586_48ef0dce37.jpg?v=0
by Mr Saudi
I recently saw that on Wikipedia article of Mecca.

http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/6.jpg
That pink illuminated building did't make the image beautiful. :(

^^ didn't notice that pink building earlier. Yeah - it is ugly and is another example of not being appropriate to the context.

Regarding that first picture, while I don't think it is a rendering (you can see the cranes on the buildings) it is definitely computer altered. It has been skewed / distorted to make the spaces look bigger.

^^ didn't notice that pink building earlier. Yeah - it is ugly and is another example of not being appropriate to the context.

Regarding that first picture, while I don't think it is a rendering (you can see the cranes on the buildings) it is definitely computer altered. It has been skewed / distorted to make the spaces look bigger.

not true :bash:....

^^ didn't notice that pink building earlier. Yeah - it is ugly and is another example of not being appropriate to the context.

Regarding that first picture, while I don't think it is a rendering (you can see the cranes on the buildings) it is definitely computer altered. It has been skewed / distorted to make the spaces look bigger.

!?!? :bash:

Thanks for those pics, DreaM1981. Nice street-level context.

Sorry but I didn't see this comment earlier,

While your concerns may sound out of this world for some, the concerns are legitimate. Arab in-fighting resulted in a fire that ruined the Kaaba in the 7th century. The fire actually caused the black stone of the Kaaba (the Hajre Aswad) to crack into pieces!


Any sane Muslim would never even think of making any such attacks on the Holy Mosque. Yet, I'm only worried about what would the hatred Muslims do. I'm talking about the racist kind that hates Saudi Arabia and the Arabs in general. Usaully, those people are mentaly ill. You would notice that their stupidity level is just too high once you start having a disucssion with them. You can easily recognize them by bringing the word Saudi in any conversation ;). They have an abnormal obsession about attacking the Saudis in litarally everything! You also notice that they claim that they are "true" Muslims but you'd laugh at their narrow minds and limited understanding of Islam from pretty much anything they say about Islam or the well known Islamic sites!!!!! It is also almost impossibel for those hatred idiots to say anything positive about Saudi!

Those are the kind of people who I would worry that they could actually make a terrorist attack on the Holy Mosque just to prove to the Muslim world that Saudi cant protect the Isalmic sites! Talk about sick obsession!!


Anyways, I think it is almost impossible to track those people down but extra security measrues should definitely be taken in Abraj Albait. Metal detectors, for example, can be used here to stop any sick minded from taken any kind of weapons to the higher floors.

^^ I posted a very credible link on the history of the Kaaba. I would encourage you to read and learn about it. I'm not going to get into the political debate you are trying to start, as that is not the intent of this thread.

http://www.archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=8801

"During the conflict between Ibn Zubayr, ruler of Mecca, and Umayyad Caliph Mu'awiyah, the Ka'ba was set to fire. The Black Stone broke into three pieces ..."

Sorry but I didn't see this comment earlier,



Any sane Muslim would never even think of making any such attacks on the Holy Mosque. Yet, I'm only worried about what would the hatred Muslims do. I'm talking about the racist kind that hates Saudi Arabia and the Arabs in general. Usaully, those people are mentaly ill. You would notice that their stupidity level is just too high once you start having a disucssion with them. You can easily recognize them by bringing the word Saudi in any conversation ;). They have an abnormal obsession about attacking the Saudis in litarally everything! You also notice that they claim that they are "true" Muslims but you'd laugh at their narrow minds and limited understanding of Islam from pretty much anything they say about Islam or the well known Islamic sites!!!!! It is also almost impossibel for those hatred idiots to say anything positive about Saudi!

Those are the kind of people who I would worry that they could actually make a terrorist attack on the Holy Mosque just to prove to the Muslim world that Saudi cant protect the Isalmic sites! Talk about sick obsession!!


Anyways, I think it is almost impossible to track those people down but extra security measrues should definitely be taken in Abraj Albait. Metal detectors, for example, can be used here to stop any sick minded from taken any kind of weapons to the higher floors.

:lol: that sure was far-fetched, you sure have a complex. How does the supportlevels for the Saudi monarchies look?

Example of an un-altered picture:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1030/852384995_b53f9a2b5a.jpg?v=0

Example of a digitally altered picture - skewed to make the bottom look wider (hence all of the leaning buildings):
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/1803337491_1dfd74f2db.jpg?v=0
by Shehana

^^ I posted a very credible link on the history of the Kaaba. I would encourage you to read and learn about it. I'm not going to get into the political debate you are trying to start, as that is not the intent of this thread.

http://www.archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=8801

"During the conflict between Ibn Zubayr, ruler of Mecca, and Umayyad Caliph Mu'awiyah, the Ka'ba was set to fire. The Black Stone broke into three pieces ..."

I didn't say you were wrong in that part (one of the very few correct information you have said so far.. thanks to google)

I was just telling you about the major threat of TODAY that the smart muslims should worry about ;).. The stupid Muslims worry about historic issues that happened a dozen of centries ago!

Therefore, my worries about the Abraj Albait complex from the hatred terrorists are more realistic :)

Can someone show me the bottleneck that Abraj Albait complex created?

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2990/grandmosquesx9.jpg

Abraj Albit is actually one of the furthest surrounding buildings from the Grand Mosque.
Besides that it was built on the site of a mountain and opened more squares in front of the Mosque :)

Another evidence that Walli is full of S**t :cheers:

Both of you quit it!!

I brought this up before and this is yet another example of what I was referring to!

walli, stop pushing peoples buttons for the sake of it and stop passing presumptions as fact!

A case and point of what I mean is that so called 'digitally altered picture'. IT IS NOT DIGITALLY ALTERED!! Stop fuelling conflict!! It was taken with a fisheye lens, its what gives the image its unusual characteristics!

Riyadhi, stop persecuting walli and biting his bait. It is obvious from your backlash at every opportunity that you have taken upon this as a mission.

Please stop it.

^^ Thanks dettol - the bringing in of politics was getting disturbing.

Thank-you for informing that the distortion was due to a lens.

[SIZE="3"]

Riyadhi, stop persecuting walli and biting his bait. It is obvious from your backlash at every opportunity that you have taken upon this as a mission.

Please stop it.

If you go back to all my previous posts, they are mainly directed not to him but to the other forumers who might belive his lies. My goal was to prove how he is full of s**t. You can go back to the previous three pages of posts and notice how I literally proved his stupidty. I'd like to say that he is driven by hatred but unfortunetly the SSC forum rules don't allow that so he is not and use your judgment ;)



I rest my case here :) He's going on my ignore list :)

Are there any considerations being taken to provide a view down ? If I see this correctly the wings or small towers won't block the view from the main tower, but looking down there is an angle beyond which the glass and facade get in the way. I'd imagine windows that slant out slightly would provide this.

There will be an outside observatory. The view will be stunning, I think, with a clear shot to the ground. I'll see if I can find the post that shows this....


Edit: I can't find Dream's original post, but here it is quoted:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=12131112&postcount=324

I daresay the view from that viewing deck could be the best from any building in the world.

SALAM to all of you brothers and sisters (if theres any)

:):):)

i am tracking walli comments from long time, and as riyadhi said you have hiiden problems with arabs and specially saudies.

your bringing up political issues in your posts either directly or indirectly, and as we discoverd from your posts, you clearly have misunderstandings of many issues,

so to make it fair, I would suggest you declare from where are you , and what is your beliefs and intentions.

I suppose you are a soufi muslim from some where in the far east

so let us know from where are you and what is your intentions from debating,
because it seems that you not only hate the building(abraj al bait) but you have other things that you hate.

to all people that hate the building its their choice, but you walli its a diffrent and more complex story.

^^ I posted a very credible link on the history of the Kaaba. I would encourage you to read and learn about it. I'm not going to get into the political debate you are trying to start, as that is not the intent of this thread.

http://www.archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.jsp?site_id=8801

"During the conflict between Ibn Zubayr, ruler of Mecca, and Umayyad Caliph Mu'awiyah, the Ka'ba was set to fire. The Black Stone broke into three pieces ..."

yes we know that.

but how is that relevant to the thread.

oh You want to say: I Know everything:lol:

Mecca looks very nice particularly from skyscraper point of view. There are not many cities in the world that would be comparable to Mecca skyscraper wise.

Off the topic, the general hatred that persists amongst the public against the Saudis stem from purely ideological point of view. The values that the current modern (western) civilization adheres to are not necessary on the same line as those with the teachings of the Koran and Sunnah. And that’s where the source of the hatred. The fact that Allah has given the Saudis plenty of resources is also exasperating the level of hatred. Even worse for the haters, the teachings of the Koran and Sunnah is spreading and taking a very strong hold in their own countries.

Just adding my two cents...

yes we know that.

but how is that relevant to the thread.

oh You want to say: I Know everything:lol:

The context was, people were interested in the history of the Kaaba, which is absolutely central to the Abraj al Bait development. If there was no Kaaba, there would certainly not have been the Abraj al Bait complex. Within the history of the Kaaba, there is the fact that on at least two occasions, the Arabs have damaged it in a significant way. This was precisely the reason the Ottomans had to re-build it (according to the original plans) and then install a castle for its protection. While it was indeed a tangent, it was absolutely relevant. It described how history and heritage had been cherished for so long.

And while "you know that", others may not - so don't speak for the entire forum.

The posts that really were taking us off course were the ones from others bringing in politics. We really need an end to that!

Example of a really off topic post:
The fact that Allah has given the Saudis plenty of resources is also exasperating the level of hatred

Get a life man! This is a thread on the Abraj al Bait!

Example of another really off topic post:
so to make it fair, I would suggest you declare from where are you , and what is your beliefs and intentions.

I'm not sure what you feel is unfair about equal participation and free speech about this project - but at least stick to the topic!

The context was, people were interested in the history of the Kaaba, which is absolutely central to the Abraj al Bait development. If there was no Kaaba, there would certainly not have been the Abraj al Bait complex. Within the history of the Kaaba, there is the fact that on at least two occasions, the Arabs have damaged it in a significant way. This was precisely the reason the Ottomans had to re-build it (according to the original plans) and then install a castle for its protection. While it was indeed a tangent, it was absolutely relevant. It described how history and heritage had been cherished for so long.

And while "you know that", others may not - so don't speak for the entire forum.

The posts that really were taking us off course were the ones from others bringing in politics. We really need an end to that!

arabs brought islam to you

arabs are still ruling according to islam, not like you secular country.

we dont need anybody to teach us islam because the quran is in our language. And you have to recite quran in arabic every day
am i right?


and please if you want to talk about rape incidents, fire in hajj, destruction of kaaba( which happend more than 8 times) talk about it in another threads not hear :), because we are fed up with your ignorance and incomplete information about many aspects.

^^ :wtf: please stick to the topic of the thread :ohno:

Some pilgrims from certain nationalities (during the Hajj season) cannot be tolerated. They come with the intention of sleeping on the streets and parks and the mosque’s squares. I am against granting them entry to the country from the beginning ...

<snip>

cover charge ... It would help filtering out the "unwashed masses"

:weirdo:

I'd like to say that he is driven by hatred but unfortunetly the SSC forum rules don't allow that so he is not and use your judgment

Unbelievable!

I am sticking to the topic of the thread, dont act as a smart kid^^

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2990/grandmosquesx9.jpg


i cant see a bottleneck here
someone is a lier obviously:nuts::nuts::nuts:

Are there any construction updates from those who are actually in Mecca? We haven't had one of those for a while now!

DreaM1981 - anything more on the finishing materials? Have things been pretty smooth with the mall being open while construction continues above?

Also - just picked this up from an article / book review:



how they get into the holy city to stop the unholy happenings and whether they really succeed in doing so.

<snip>

The nuggets about the city of Mecca are fascinating, especially the authentic details about the construction of the huge Abraj Al Bait Towers across the Great Mosque, the Bin Laden family and the fact that Uncle Mac Donald beams down on the devotees.

m-man,

welcome to the forum... I highly recommend not wasting your time with this idiot since he has been already exposed. And as Sdare said, click on his name, then add him on the ignore list. All I see under his posts is "This message is hidden because Walli is on your ignore list" :D... It's the only way to fliter out the junk posts from this thread :nuts:

Someone is trying to spoil the thread again and moderators are closing their eyes for the 10000th times :nuts:

Walli, all knew it, you never reply to many of our posts which show your lies specially the pictures I posted and the Riyadhi's pictures. You ignore many posts and all got sick of you.

Moderators, is he paying for this forum or what? Just tell us so we can understand :lol:

We love Makkah and Al-Masjid Al-Haram... All the developement activities in the holy city is normal because it hosts millions of muslems all over the year...
This project is huge and wonderful... and I hope to has a chance to visit it in the near future...
Good job for this project... and thanks for the updates, guys...

is any new photo???????

Wow guys! The Grand Mosque looks absolutly fantastic on those arial photographs! Really a magnificent sight!

^^ :wtf: please stick to the topic of the thread :ohno:

:weirdo:

Unbelievable!

The saudis seem a little bit paranoid here :lol:

Dont worry about it hehe.

The saudis seem a little bit paranoid here :lol:

You think? :nuts:

For someone like myself who doesn't give a f*** about religion other than as a historical curiosity, this thread is absolutely mind-boggling.

You think? :nuts:

For someone like myself who doesn't give a f*** about religion other than as a historical curiosity, this thread is absolutely mind-boggling.

We have something in common then :)

Some members here claim that others are arrogant whilst at the same time shining with their complacency :lol:

With that being said, im just observing not judging.

^^ *signed*

the project is amazing, if only for the massiveness of the buildings or the tacky design

but the best thing are the never-ending discussions here... go on guys :D

Off the topic, the general hatred that persists amongst the public against the Saudis stem from purely ideological point of view. The values that the current modern (western) civilization adheres to are not necessary on the same line as those with the teachings of the Koran and Sunnah. And that’s where the source of the hatred. The fact that Allah has given the Saudis plenty of resources is also exasperating the level of hatred. Even worse for the haters, the teachings of the Koran and Sunnah is spreading and taking a very strong hold in their own countries.


I agree...
The haters are still in denial of the Saudi reality :)... Big part of it is jealusy too...!!
They wonder: "How an empty desert turned into the biggest influncial country in the Arab and Islamic world?"

What motivates him to click on the thread title?:lol:

Clearly he doesn't like the project? What drives him? And its not like he posts every now and then its quite persistent.

I know the common anti-Saudi arguments and agenda's out there and almost all of his posts have hinted at that. You may not be aware of it but there are a lot of muslims out there that just despise the Saudi's for the sect of Islam that they follow. Walli is one of them.

Mind you Malec a lot of his posts have been condescending, But most muslims that post on this thread know that Walli is religiously motivated when he just bashes the project. Lets not forget some of his older posts.

It is not just the soofiyah against the Salafis, it is also the turks, and the asians in western countries.
The Uk is full of asian muslims, and they resent the inequalities between saudis (gulf states) and the asian workers.It is most definately something the gulf will have to address, or it will be a problem in the future

As for the building. When you consider that Islam has some of the most beautiful architecture the world has know, such as the al-hambra, or the taj mahal, or ottoman mosques, then this building falls quite flat. For so much money and its location, it should not have been so "busy"

Can someone show me the bottleneck that Abraj Albait complex created?

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2990/grandmosquesx9.jpg

Abraj Albit is actually one of the furthest surrounding buildings from the Grand Mosque.
Besides that it was built on the site of a mountain and opened more squares in front of the Mosque :)

Another evidence that Walli is full of S**t :cheers:



There OBVIOUSLY ISN'T a Bottleneck with the Abraj Al Bait, In the ealier Post he had no Idea where the Abraj Al Bait was positioned!!, THAT EVEN AFTER HAVING BEEN POSTING ON THIS THREAD FOR HOW MANY MONTHS NOW!!

He obviously has no clue what he was talking about and was caught lying.

End of the freaking "bottleneck" and "Kaaba Perimeter Wall" debates I hope people have realized how far this guy would go to create a problem for this project to the point where he'll start inventing shit

damn.

^^ Is he still talking about the bottleneck :nuts:?????

http://m7mad.net/images/kingtower/6.jpg
That's a great picture, as it gives a good idea of how many people can be in and around the Kaaba complex at any one time. Someone had mentioned how the numbers keep trending up - wonder how it will work when there are twice as many people?

The area I was talking about is in the bottom right of this picture, IE where the space between the Abraj al Bait development and the perimeter wall of the Kaaba complex (IE the grand mosque) is the smallest. It seems to be the bottleneck.


If anyone can read what he wrote and the picture and area he's referring to clearly he has absolutely NO CLUE of where Abraj Al Bait is positioned :lol: Infact he didn't realize the Picture was Taken from a top one of Abraj complex's towers :lol: but by far the best invention of his is the Kaaba perimeter wall :lol:

Some people just need to stop when they realize other's have figured them out.

Someone is trying to spoil the thread again and moderators are closing their eyes for the 10000th times :nuts:

Walli, all knew it, you never reply to many of our posts which show your lies specially the pictures I posted and the Riyadhi's pictures. You ignore many posts and all got sick of you.

Moderators, is he paying for this forum or what? Just tell us so we can understand :lol:

If I understand correctly there was a specific thread created to discuss the impact of this tower on the surrounding areas. That thread was specifically created to keep non-construction discussion out of this thread(Walli :lol:) but obviously that hasn't happened. The mods are either too lazy or just captivated by the Burj Dubai thread like the rest of us.

... and was caught lying.

When and about what?

If I understand correctly there was a specific thread created to discuss the impact of this tower on the surrounding areas.

Actually - that is not the case. The separate thread is entitled "Mecca: New skyscrapers destroying Islamic heritage?". It is actually a very good thread, and I'd encourage everyone to read through it!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531080

Thanks for bringing this to our attention again, as there may have been new forumers that didn't have the privilege of reading the original article (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=15709579&postcount=1) that started that one!

:okay:

Refer to posts below

i'm sure that mecca is crowded by now due to the hajj pilgrims. what date will Aidiladha fall???

Still moderators are sleeping or closing their eyes. Where is Malec? he said that he is keeping an eye on this thread specially!!!

I hope he replies to know that he is reading. Where is the admin? GRRRRRRR before I get mad and lose my temper, I hope someone takes action against this ignorant/arrogant walli.

Again he is ignoring all of the posts about his ignorant comments and he could not even reply to any of my picture or riyadhi's picture.

Ignorant!! :nuts:

Ever heard of PMs?

I mean, Riyadhi and Dream and now Uoft, you're discussing with Walli, since you are replying EVERY TIME and even posting photos to demonstrate your point as opposed to his. So why are you complaining that Walli is going off-topic? I don't understand this. More, Walli is being annoying for sure, but not arrogant, whereas you're being arrogant and sounding immature in your replies with your silly smilies and laughies. Also I believe the space around the buildings is a relevant issue to the construction thread - especially if the place is such a sensitive one. I, too, think Walli should limit his interventions, but his posts are legitimate nevertheless.

^^ we reply in good/proper way but when he insists to be arrogant and even ignores admiting that he is wrong/mistaken, it annoys anyone for sure.

About space issue, we replied and we knew that he does not even know what he is talking about or where the exact location of this project.

He did not know the exact location and he still insists that he is right. He is here just to attack this project and we all know it VERY WELL but moderators are closing their eyes and we got enough from this ignorant user.

If the moderators did not take action, I will use same way of walli's posts and trust me the thread will be spoiled.

urdu - arab - originally - non western - favour - deny - as usual - nation

^^ hangman game :lol:

I mean, Riyadhi and Dream and now Uoft, you're discussing with Walli, since you are replying EVERY TIME and even posting photos to demonstrate your point as opposed to his. So why are you complaining that Walli is going off-topic? I don't understand this. More, Walli is being annoying for sure, but not arrogant, whereas you're being arrogant and sounding immature in your replies with your silly smilies and laughies. Also I believe the space around the buildings is a relevant issue to the construction thread - especially if the place is such a sensitive one. I, too, think Walli should limit his interventions, but his posts are legitimate nevertheless.

I got the same impression as you

LOL, If you haven't read some of Walli's old posts your comments are not needed.

Dream1981 and Riyadhi are both the LIFE LINE's of this thread. The Updates of the Clock and the changes in height both times were reported here first by Dream1981. Without him we won't have this thread. The last thing all three of us want is for the thread to break down, which it has been by things like "bottlenecks" and "Kaaba perimeter wall" that were made up by him to continue his assault on the project.

^^ speaking of which, several of us have been asking for construction updates / pictures. Is there anyone on this forum that actually is in Mecca and can snap some pics? That would certainly get things back on track.

By the way, you were going to provide some evidence to support your repeated claims that I was lying about something or other. What happened?

Oh - and did you actually read the thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531080) you were directing people to? While it is an extremely relevant and interesting thread, it was not what you were saying.

Thank-you to Alle and Peloso (and others) for trying to keep us on track. I was a little-bit over the top earlier in my participation on this forum, largely due to my disagreement with the decision to demolish historic buildings to make room for this project. After feedback, we transitioned that discussion to another thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531080), and I've tried hard to keep this thread on track (which includes, as it should, a diversity of opinions irrespective of what they are).

VV Riyadhi seems to be a lost cause, and insists on making nine irrelevant posts for every one post actually related to this project. Moderators really need to take note!

LOL, If you haven't read some of Walli's old posts your comments are not needed.

Dream1981 and Riyadhi are both the LIFE LINE's of this thread. The Updates of the Clock and the changes in height both times were reported here first by Dream1981. Without him we won't have this thread. The last thing all three of us want is for the thread to break down, which it has been by things like "bottlenecks" and "Kaaba perimeter wall" that were made up by him to continue his assault on the project.


Regarless of the fact that all what we have been doing is correcting the lies that he keeps bringing about this project, some of the stuff that he said is REALLY stupid.... And what's funny is that he claims to know it all!!!!

Yet, people still don't understand why we thought what Walli said and insisted on saying was stupid and think that we are just taking it personal!!

Well, People of SSC, imagine that someone tells you something about The Steel Tower of Europe (Eiffel Tower), and at the same time claims to be French!!

Or someone telling you something about the Triangles of Cairo (The Pyramids) and that he’s Egyptian!!

Or someone tells you about The Fort of Washington (the white house)!! And insists that this what it is called!!!!




Those were some simliar examples to the names he has been giving to the sites in Mecca....Let's gvie examples of his stupid analogy..... what would you think if someone tells you that the Freedom tower should not be built because Manhattan could sink as a result of the weight of the tower!! Stupid right??

How would you react if someone tells you that Burj Dubai will increasing global warming because it is too high that it might poke a hole in the ozone layer!! you will laugh right?? espeically when you realize that he is actually serious!!


Really, his arguments are even more stupid that...... how would you argue against that?

Alright guys don't get too upset about who said what. Most of the guys here are armchair experts and their expertise and capabilities will stops when they get off their chair (with regards to this project). If someone thinks that there are rooms for better utilization of areas and spaces then let them start in their own towns and cities. There are rooms for better utilization of areas and spaces in every city of the world.

I don't see any relevance in saying what should have or could have done about the project because that is irrelevant.

And please don't take it too personally. The fact that you are reacting this way is giving this guy a leeway to exploit further and draw more attention. He doesn't and will not call any shots as to how and what should be done about the Kaaba and/or its surrounding areas. So, let him keep his thoughts with him.

you still fighting? loool
Full Size (http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6780/p1010051pm0.jpg)
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8890/p1010051ny1.jpg

Full Size (http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/774/p1010054hk7.jpg)
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/58/p1010054tu5.jpg

Its so kitch but I love it so much !

Full Size (http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6780/p1010051pm0.jpg)
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8890/p1010051ny1.jpg


Is this a rendering of the taller version at 595m, or the prior shorter one?

VV thanks malec! Hey - I just noticed some sort of netting / mesh protruding out from the main entry portal in this rendering. Do you know what that is?

^^ It's the taller one

Some pictures for the shopping mall of Abraj Al-Bait:

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8747/dsc00001ef4.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8105/dsc00003nc0.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2540/dsc00002op5.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9873/dsc00004qd5.jpg

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5562/dsc00005jh1.jpg

I just noticed some sort of netting / mesh protruding out from the main entry portal in this rendering. Do you know what that is?

It had been cancelled as far I know unless if they decided to install it back but upto now it is cancelled Wallahu a'lam (Allah knows best).

I heard that they might install it but it is still a rumor without any confirmation or work on the site.

The view looks great from the Abrait Al-Bait, it looks amazing. I like how it looks the mall too.

Does anybody know if Abraj Al-Bait will overtake the Pentagon as the biggest building?
It's a mountain!

Abraj Al Bait: 1,500,000 m²
Pentagon: 620,000 m²

wow, 1,5mio is damn much for one building!

Thx Riyadhi, impressive!

LOL, If you haven't read some of Walli's old posts your comments are not needed.

Dream1981 and Riyadhi are both the LIFE LINE's of this thread. The Updates of the Clock and the changes in height both times were reported here first by Dream1981. Without him we won't have this thread. The last thing all three of us want is for the thread to break down, which it has been by things like "bottlenecks" and "Kaaba perimeter wall" that were made up by him to continue his assault on the project.

Up until recently, DreaM1981 was the only one consistently contributing anything of value to this thread, in terms of pictures and factual context. Now, even his posts have descended into this bickering bullshit. In the past few weeks, if he even asks a simple question, you guys all jump all over him in two seconds, accusing him of lying or being off-topic, even where he isn't. His question about bottlenecks clearly indicated that he didn't know anything about the layout of the area around Abraj al-Bait and the Grand Mosque -- constantly repeating a mantra of "you obviously haven't been to Mecca" and "there's no such thing as a Kaaba perimeter wall" is just a way to condescend towards him without offering anything productive in response.

I was one of the first people to insist that he shut down his repeated complaints about the Saudi regime and the Ottoman castle. Now, I'm insisting that you guys shut down this endless bullying and get back to the topic.

Guys - the other thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531080&page=6), which is supposed to only be talking about heritage vs. development in Mecca, continues to get people who insist on posting comments about this project. I've tried to reinforce things several times, but it is not working. As such, I somewhat sympathize with those trying to keep posts on this thread on the topic of the Abraj al Bait. Through a little bit of effort, below I've copied and pasted several of the Abraj al Bait comments from the other thread. Hope this helps somewhat. These are several comments all on this project (and they should have been made on this thread in the first place):

I tot that's the palace of the Klingon Emperor or something :nuts:. I do not favor this project, the design is so stupid and looks like a place for only rich Muslims(dictators, corrupt officials,exiled leaders,mafia,stupid people who're just rich) and nullify the value of equality in Mecca.

I must say that project is HORRIBLE... so out of context.... more like Disneyland and Vegas combined..... makes me want to vomit...... and I'm not even religious...but that is soooooooo not right..... everybody...muslims and non-muslims should be offended by this project...... I would not wish that monstrosity on my worst enemy....

is it me or does that look like a morphed Big Ben in there??? What the F#@*???!!

Isn't Mekka a place where all muslims cometogether as equals? So why are there 5.000+ USD a night hotels, while others have to sleep in tents?

It's terribly awful, and that giant Big Ben is one of the crappiest things I've ever seen.

I am not religious in anyway,but this is disgusting!!! Mecca is a place of historical importance.No modern building should be allowed to overshadow an area as significant as this place.

the money spent on this project could probably have provided clean drinking water, proper medical care, and proper schooling to millions of poor people.... :ohno:

it looks retarded.

Debate about this building is, unfortunately, cut short on the Saudi forums. When you question this building, Saudi forumers throw out the "keep religion out of this" or "90% of the world's Muslims arent offended by this" (suggesting that only Shia's are offended by this structure.

Because this is Makkah, and this building is built right next to the Kaaba, this discussion will naturally have a religious tilt to it in that we criticize it for being so close to Islam's holiest sanctuary. I suspect the Saudi forumers know this, but since they're Wahabbis and believe this building is "progress" and preservation of buildings is idolatry, they just throw out the "NO RELIGIOUS DEBATE" card to silence criticism.

Anyways, even if you don't criticize this on religious grounds, you can criticize this for being the monstrosity which it is. The size, architecture, and clock are just absolutely 100% hideous. It saddens me to know that our holiest shrine is right next to one of the ugliest buildings I've ever seen. We deserve better than having Saudi fanatics trying to raze old Makkah and replace it with their monuments. This is especially true considering the fact that Makkah isn't Wahabbi (only the non-Shia portions of Eastern KSA are truly Wahabbi), and that hundreds of years of exposure to all sorts of Muslim pilgrims means that Makkah is relatively liberal and tolerant.

Saudies are proving that they are the grandsons of arabs before prophet. Idolators. They are disrespectful against heritage and also they earn money over religion like Idolator Arabs. They sell Kabaa, they use Kabaa and religion as acomercial material.

I really hate that they build those scrapers right next to the Ka'aba... The towers look acceptable, but definetly not at that location. Just a waste of money and resources - and also a loss of reputation for Mecca imo.

The building is tacky. It seems to be an amalgamation of Las Vegas strip chintz, and overbuilding to an inappropriate degree. It doesn't fit in well with the surrounding feel of the district, rather, it sticks out like a sore thumb. This is more about commercialism than it is about accommodating large throngs of devout worshippers. Unfortunately, whoever designed this building had no sense of esthetic.

The Saudis are ruining Makkah with all this stuff.

Build that stuff in Jeddah or Taif nearby...not right next door to the Kaaba. It's blasphemous and tasteless.

Reviewing this long list of comments, I know some will not be too happy. Unfortunately, there seems to be a trend to the comments on that other thread. If you have issues, feel free to visit that one and leave your thoughts there.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531080&page=6

any updates. makes it real hard to update diagrams when the past few pages have been unrelated matter.

Wow, I never realized this project was going to be built THAT close to the mosque.

I'm not even Muslim, but that's just horrible. It draws attention from what should be the most important building in the area.

Negative attention as well personally, I find that design atrocious.

Very tall however. Which I find is good (i'm a height whore lol). But wrong location.

LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION!

...Unfortunately, there seems to be a trend to the comments on that other thread. If you have issues, feel free to visit that one and leave your thoughts there.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=531080&page=6

Exactly, Keep this thread on topic.

No more bickering and finger pointing!! Things have been smooth for a couple of days and I was actually beginning to enjoy this thread again, until this whole inappropriate argument was revived.

walli, your not helping by posting a long list of comments which do not belong here, but thank you for posting a link to the appropriate place where people can go to share these views and discuss them.

Please, use due judgment people.